ISSN 0542-5492 Fourth Sehlon - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 29 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL . XXVlll No. 57A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDA Y , 13 MAY , 1980 Printed by W. T.Matwichyna, O,_,s Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty - First Legislature Members, Constituen cies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, A. R. (Pete) ANDERSON, Bob BANMAN, Hon . Robert (Bob) BARRO W , Tom BLAKE, David BOS TRO M, Harvey BOYCE, J. R. (Bud) BRO WN, Arnold CHERNIACK, Q.C., Saul CORRIN, Brian COSENS, Hon . Keith A. CO WAN, Jay CRAIK, Hon . Donald W. DESJARDINS, Laurent L. DOERN, Russell DO MINO, Len DO WNEY, Hon . Jim DRIEDGER, Albert EINARSON, Henry J. ENNS, Hon . Harry J. EVANS, Leonard S. FERGUSON, James R. FIL MON, Gary FOX, Peter GALBRAITH, Jim GOURLAY, Hon . Doug . GRAHAM, Hon. Harry E.

GREEN, Q.C., Sidney HANUSCHAK, Ben HYDE, Lloyd G. JENKINS, William JOHNSTON, Hon . J. Frank JORGENSON, Hon . Warner H. KOVNATS, Abe LYON, Hon . Sterling R. MacMASTER, Hon .Ken MALINOWSKI, Donal d McBRYDE, Ronald McGILL, Hon . Edward McGREGOR, Morris McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., Hon . Gerald W. J. MILLER, Saul A. MINAKER, Hon . George ORCHARD, Hon . Donald PARASIUK, Wilson PAWLEY, Q.C., Howard PRICE, Hon . Norma RANSOM, Hon . Brian SCHROEDER, Vic SHER MAN, Hon . L. R. (Bud) STEEN, Warren URUSKI, Billie USKI W , Samuel WALDING, D. James WESTBURY, June WILSON, Robert G. Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield La Verendrye Flin Flon Minnedosa Rupertsland Winnipeg Centre Rhineland St. Johns Wellington Gimli Churchill Riel St. Boniface Elmwood St. Matthews Arthur Emerson Rock Lake Lakeside Brandon East Gladstone River Heights Kildonan Dauphin Swan River Birtle-Russell lnkster Burrows Portage la Prairie Logan Sturgeon Creek Morris Radisson Charleswood Thompson Point Douglas The Pas Brandon West Virden Roblin Osborne Seven Oaks St. James Pembina Transcona Selkirk Assiniboia Souris-Killarney Rossmere Fort Garry Crescentwood St. George Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Fort Rouge Wolseley Party NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC Ind NOP PC NOP PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC NOP PC PC NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC PC NOP NOP NOP Lib PC

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle­ Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions. PRESEN TING RE PORT S BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMI TTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Mr. Speaker, the Comm ittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for Portage la Prairie that the Report of Commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: I beg to present the second report on the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. MR. CLERK, Jack Reeves: Your Committee met on Tuesday, May 6, Thursday, May 8 and Tuesday, May 13 , 1980, to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Ins urance Corporation. Your Commit tee received all information desired by any memb er of the Comm ittee from the Chairman, Mr. J.O. Dutton, and members of the staff with respect to all matters pertaining to the Annual Report and the business of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.

The fulle st opportunity was accorded to all members of the Committee to seek any information desired. Your Commit tee examined the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation for the fiscal year ending October 31, 1979, and adopted the same as presented. MR. BROWN: I move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for River Heights tha t the Report of Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STA TEMENTS AND TABLING OF RE POR TS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table a return under

Section 30.2 of The Law Society Act. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . In troduction of Bills. INTRODUC TION OF GUES TS MR. SPEAKER: At this time I would like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery where we have five visitors from the Esmond Public School of Esmond, North Dakota, under the direction of Mr. Hoffner. We also have 40 students of Grade 11 standing from the Altona High School, under the direction of Mr. Schmidt. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rhineland. We also have 38 students of Grade 6 standing from Bannatyne School, under the direction of Mr.

Turko. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of Economic Development. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. OR AL QUES TIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister responsible for the Environment. In the report that the Mini ster for the Environment will be preparing for us pertaining to the usage of a chemical spray in 1953 by the U.S. government.

Can the Min ister also provide us information as to any other chemical spray which may have been used in simi lar experimental programs in the province of Manitoba as it appears that the true nature of this chemical spray was not divulged at the time due to concerns expressed by officials that there might be undue alarm. Would the Min ister report back as to any other such chemical spray tests undertaken in the province of Manitoba during the past three decades. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister responsible for the Environment. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, similar questions were asked in the House of Commons and answers not elicited at that level. The source of my in forma tion would be the Department of National Defence, and until I have a report from them, I am unable to confirm, deny or otherwise answer the question asked by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, would the Min ister advise the House as to what mechanism he is establishing or is intending to establish to ensure that such happenings, such tests, are not undertaken in the future without the true nature of those tests being divulged to the government? MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, it would seem highly unlikely that any further testing would be done without the knowledge of the Government of Canada and I would think without the knowledge of the 3589

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 government of the province of Manitoba. Under the present circumstances it seems to me that would be unlikely. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Min ister apparently is expressing a lot of faith, but is the Minister establishing any mechanism that would involve the province of Manitoba, its government, the federal government, in order to ensure that there is a mechanism so that the Manitoba government is fully informed as to any future such tests that might be undertaken involving the people of this province? MR.

JORGENSON: As my honourable friend is aware, negotiations and discussions carried on between two levels of government, such as Canada and the Uni ted States, are carried on at the national level. My request for information from the federal government is in tended to elicit tha t kind of information. Until I have a response from them, I am not in a position to answer specifically the query of my honourable friend. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Sp eaker, by way of a supplement further to the Minister responsible for the Environment, will the Mini ster ensure that he obtains guar antees ins ofar as future tests are concerned in the provinc e of Manitoba and the divulging of the true nature of same? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, that has been the purpose of my enquiries to the federal government in the first place, to attempt to ascertain the circumstances under which the testing took place at that time.

And having once determined that, then I intend to follow that up with further discussions with the federal government to ensure that such testing does not take place again without the knowledge and consent of the provincial government. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, to the Min ister of Health.

Can the Mi n ister advise whether he is presently, through his department, undertaking to provide to Manitobans a report as to whether or not there were any short-term or long- term effects, healthwise, due to the particular chemical used as there appears to be some controversy as to whether or not the chemical that was used indeed was a health hazard or not. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition that I am doing that and, in fact, had ordered that be done when revelation of the test first became public a few days ago. Thus far, Sir, from the reports that I have received back, both from our Public Health Directorate and from the Ma ni toba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, there do not appear, Sir, to be any records, and there does not appear to be any evidence of any abnorma lities or any unus ual increases in patterns of illness or disease. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to dir ect a qu estion to the Min ister of Na tu ral Resources. I would like to kno w, Mr. Speaker, whether or not the Minister has found it necessary to have either Ministers or staff convene in the last few days with respect to what appears to be a worsening drought situation in the province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (So uris-Killa rney): Mr.

Speaker, both the staff of the Department of Agricul ture and of my depa rtment have been consideri ng the past performance, in terms of dealing with droughts, and looking at the various eventualities we might face this year. I am happy to tell the honourable member that the Min ister of Agriculture and myself will be meeting this afternoon at 4:30 with some of our senior people to look at the steps we think should be initiated now, given the circumstances prevailing with respect to the drought. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, unfortunately, although we are told that where there's smoke there's fire, it appears tha t where there's clouds there's not necessarily moisture. Can the Mini ster advise the House, just how difficult the situation is with regard to the lack of moisture and just when and if he thinks it will be critical if there is no precipitation in the next short period of time. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I can really only offer a comment as far as municipal water supplies and perhaps to some extent domestic water supplies.

The Min ister of Agriculture would be in a better position to respond as to the situation conce rning our agricultura l crops. We have, not to this point, received any requests for assistance or any expression of serious concern about municipal water supp lies. There are some qu eries coming in concerning what action individual farmers might have to take or be able to take in order to replenish water supplies in their dugouts.

At this point though the situation has not reached what might be termed critical proportions and I think it would be some time until it did become critical as far as those types of supplies are concerned. The agricultural situation is something else and I would think the Min ister of Agriculture might wish to comment. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, then if I may put a supp lementary qu estion to the Min ister of Agriculture. Can he tell us just what the seriousness of the present situation is, not only with respect to cultivated land and crops but also with respect to cattle and the necessity for watering cattle. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, following along the lines of discussion or answer by my colleague, the Min ister of Resources, we have in fact had the Department of Agriculture activate the Dugout Pumping Program and I can report to the House that several dugouts have been filled this 3590

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 spring for stock watering. The pasture supplies and the department have identified additional community pastures that are available for holding of livestock and the numb ers are something like 8,000 that we will be communic ating to the public very shortly, in fact, are doing it now; that we have 8,000 animal unit spaces available in our community pastures in the province; we are identifying available feed supplies.

We have, in fact, a two-fold problem within the agriculture community this particular year, one being the drought condition, another one being the high cost of crop inputs and the position that farmers find themselves in, in the economics of the production of crops, they are extremely strained. I have called the task force on agriculture as of earlier today, to reimplement that particular group to discuss with me some programs and look at the developments that have taken place within the farm community and what things government can do.

On Friday I sent a letter to the Federal Minister of Agriculture requesting that a committee be activated between the federal and provincial governments; that the PFRA committee do everything they can to help implement programs or to implement programs that will alleviate some of the problems, plus alerted him that it is of a magnitude that there could be need for financial assistance from the federal government. On top of that, Mr.

Speaker, I have commun icated to the western Min isters of Agriculture to have input from them and we plan to further discuss what can be done on a regional basis to alleviate some of the problems. It is a major concern of mine at this particular time, in light of the two factors, one the drought condition, the other the economic conditions which cannot be taken lightly and we are dealing with it to the best of our ability, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Min ister of Government Services responsible for EMO.

In view of statements made by the Department of National Defence, spokesmen at the three levels of government were notified about this chemical testing in Winnip eg in 1953, can the Min ister indicate, or has he requested information concern ing whether EMO or its Civil Defence predecessor was notified of such tests in 1953, or of any similar tests since then? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister of Government Services. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, at the time these tests were carried out Emergency Measures Organization, as such, did not exist.

There was a Civil Defence Advisory Comm ittee in the metropolitan area of Winnip eg that was contacted by the federal authorities at tha t time; and my understanding is that this advisory civil defence committee made their recommendation to the Health Comm ittee of Council of that day, that acceded to the tests being carried out. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Min ister responsible for the Environment or the Min ister of Health concerning zinc cadmium sulfide.

I wonder if the Min ister could provide us with a clear statement on this chemical substance as to its effects on human beings, because the range of opinion that I have heard in the last 24 hours ranges from harmle ss, acco rding to U.S. Army and Department of National Defence spokesmen, to adversely affecting babies and asthmatics according to a U of M pharmacologist, a suggestion that it may cause heart attacks, a suggestion that it's a toxin and maybe a carcinogen. Could the Min ister indicate what his information is concerning this product? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I'm advised by the Manitoba Cancer Foundation that as metals, zinc and cadmium are toxic, but the director of the Fou nda tion is not sure at this ju ncture of the possible toxicity of zinc cadmium sulfide and will be giving me further advice on that point. Some newspaper reports have told of deaths and brain damage to industrial workers from these metals. Other damage caused by cadmium are high blood pressure, damaged lungs and liver, and cadmium also washes into water supplies and tends to collect in shellfish, in those areas where there is habitation by shellfish.

I am also advised by the Ma ni toba Cancer Foundation, Mr. Speaker, that the worst cause of cadmium now in Manitoba and the worst threat to the public is from smoking. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no ur able Mem ber for Elmwood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of the Environment again whether he has any information or if he has picked up any information concerning these tests or suspected similar tests in which Winni peggers may have been used as guinea pigs.

I especially draw to his attention reports in the press from 1953 in which the matter was simply passed off as an observation of the city of Winnipeg in regard to smoke behaviour and suggestions that it was simply part of a national program to study air currents in built-up areas. So my question again is, would the Min ister inform us as to any direct tests similar to the '53 tests or any suspected tests that might fall under that same umbrella. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister responsible for the Environment. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, I know of no tests or suspected tests that would fall under tha t umbrella that have taken place. As I said earlier, however, my complete answer would depend upon the response that I get from Ottawa and I am awaiting a reply from the Department of National Defence before I can state anything further. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Elmwood with another question. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, a final question to the Min ister. Has he requested copies of the American document which apparently details the test and a 3591

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 propos ed second document which apparan tly confirms the test and provides the results. Has he requested th ose documents from Ottawa or Wash ington and then would he be prepared to release them to the House when he obtains them? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, my commun ication was dir ected to the Department of National Defence in Ottawa and I have asked them for documentation of correspondence that took place between the two levels of government regarding this particular matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is addressed to the Honour able Minister of Health. In view of the strike action which may take place May 27th, as being voted on by the CUPE hospital workers, would the Min ister tell the House, please, what special arrangements he has being made for those hospitals which may be affected? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Min ister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: I can't do that, Mr. Sp eaker, except to assure the honourable member and all honourable members that contingency plans are in place and are being refined. We remain optimistic that there will be no strike. MRS. WESTBURY: A further qu estion, Mr .

Speaker. It has been drawn to my attention in the past couple of days that during the Golden Door strike volunteers who were going in to assist with the patients were being harassed as they entered the facility. I wonder if the Minister could assure us that some protection would be offered to volunteers who are trying to go in to look after patients in conditions where a strike is in force. MR. SHERMAN: I can't gi ve the hono urable member that assurance, Mr.

Speaker, when the collective bargaining process breaks down and people undertake a legal strike, there are obviously often some emotions and tensions that run high and feelings run high and I think there are probab ly some exaggerated activities on both sides, in the case where a facility or an institution is experiencing a strike. What I can assure the honourable member of is that where and when necessary that protection is available from the police. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urab le Me mber for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Labour.

Can the Min ister indicate what specific action his government is taking in regard to the nearly 2 percent increase in one month in the unemp loyment rate in northern Manitoba that has resulted in a 9.5 percent official unemp loyment rate, which is over double what it was when his government took office in 1977? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): I would think that the Member, Mr. Speaker, from Churchill constituency is aware of a substantial amount of activity that is taking place in northern Manitoba, particularly in his own communities, in the mining industry.

I think he is probab ly aware, coming from an area where trapping is very important, that we just came out of a year, I think the figures were 2 million more than the previous year, and I think set an all-time record in the province of Manitoba.

I think he should also be aware that, I stand to be corrected in this but I think it is correct, the price of fish in northern Manitoba was the best that it has ever been, that I remember, in the history of the province and that in one particular part of the north an agreement has just recently has been established with Hydro and a lot of the fishermen for a subsidy to assist the fishermen in the forthcoming season. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, the Min ister did not indicate what government action will be forthcoming in this regard .

I would ask the Min ister if he can then indicate if his government will be taking special action in order to alleviate the negative impa ct of his government's previous economic policies that have resulted in less than 45 percent of those who have entered the work force since October, 1977, being able to find employment and that has resulted in nearly 55 percent of those who have tried to find work not being able to find work because of his government's policies. I'd ask him, is he now going to review and change those policies that had such a deleterious impact on people entering the work force? MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, one of the major contributing factors to loss of em ployment in northern Manitoba was the closing down of the Hydro projects and that, of course, the closing down of those projects commenced in the spring, early summer of '77, and this particular party came into power that fall of '77. I think the member should be aware of that, Mr. Speaker. I'll check his particular statistics that he has picked out; there seems to be a sort of a statistical game that we run into every second Tuesday of every month.

I had the privilege, I guess you would call it, of getting hold of a document introduced or distributed by the Member for Brandon East. I intend to forward to him some of his glaring in equities and some of the glari ng mis takes tha t he has made in tha t particular document as it relates to population also. I hope that some of the mistakes he has made in that document were accidental, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Chur chill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, I assure the Mini ster that this is not a statistical game to the 31 ,000 persons who are unemployed in the province today. I also want to point out that in my last statement I was referring to a province-wide situation and not just a northern situation in regard to those people not being able to find employment. 3592

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 My final supplementary to the Minister is, the last time we discussed the failings of this government in regard to employment policies, the First Mini ster stated that it was not to his liking that we compare one month against another but rather he preferred to compare a three-to-four month period. My question to the Minister is now can he indicate what action, and action is necessary, Mr.

Speaker, what action his government will be taking in respect to figures that show, for all the provinc es for a period sinc e December, 19 79, that Manitoba has experienced a no-growth situation in the number of employed which is the second worse record out of the 10 provinces. Will he indicate what action his government will be taking in that regard? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, in 19 78, there were more people employed in Manitoba as an increase in one year than there was in the three previous years of the previous government.

In 19 79, 13 ,000 new jobs in the province of Manitoba; again, more in one year t.han the previous three years of the previous NDP government. The member has access to the same figures that I have. A month or two ago, when year over year looked bad, they were quick to jump to their feet and talk about it. It's strange that this month, the month of April, over the month previous in the previous year, there was 11 ,000 more people working in Manitoba than there was a year ago. The facts show that there are 5,000 more people working this month than there was the month before, so we can go on with statistics.

I'll check Hansard and see exactly which ones the member is talking about and I'll forward him some of our own. I think you have to work it out, Mr. Speaker, and have a look at the overall picture and it certainly doesn't look bad in my eyesight. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urab le Mem ber for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I can see the honourable mini ster indeed has rose-coloured glasses that he is looking through at the unemployment situation. I would ask the Honour able Minister to consider the fact that thus far this year there has been absolutely . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please.

Asking Min isters to consider facts is really not seeking information. If the member has a question to ask of the Min ister, seeking information, I would appreciate it. MR.

EVANS: In asmuch as the government must be concerned with present day economic trends to hopefully cope with them, will the Minister agree, does the Min ister's analysis show that thus far in this year of our Lord, 19 80, there has been no jobs created in the province of Manitoba and given the fact that there has been no job creation on a seasonally adjusted basis, is the Min ister prepared to recommend to his government, finally, that this government undertake some stimulative action to give jobs to the young people and, indeed, the old people of this province who are looking for jobs? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Sp eaker, the member seems to forget, and he has to be aware what happened in 19 78 under our policies, there was 11 ,000 more jobs created in Manitoba; in 19 79, there was 13 ,000 and I'd like to see that continue with our particular economic policies. Now, those aren 't government figures; they aren't opposition figures; they are stats that he can look at. The increased em ployment that's taken place in provinc e of Manitoba in the last two years has been 24,000 jobs and that's in two years. In the last three years of the opposition, I think the last three years there was approximately 10 ,000 in three years.

MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the Honou rable Minister will soon find that those jobs are disappearing. Mr. Speaker, if the Min ister would take time he will see that the jobs are disappearing right in front of his nose.

My supplementary question to the Min ister is that inasmuch as there seems to be an upward trend in unemployment rates this year, 19 80, comparing December of '79 when the rate was only 4.6 and now has climbed to 5.9, will the Min ister agree that we can look forward to even worsening unemployment rates in the forthcoming months, possibly in the 6 or 7 percent range this summer, and does the Minister agree or has the Minister's staff advised him that we can look forward to even hi gher rates of unemp loyment in the next three or four months? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

Questions of agreement are not questions that seek any information and I have to rule the question out of order. The honourable member with a final question. MR. EVANS: Mr. Sp eaker, has the Minis ter available any forecasts from his research staff - and he has the staff that we do not have, of course - but has the Min ister any forecasts indicating that we can look forward to a high er rate of unemp loyment in the forthcoming months. Inasmuch, Mr.

Speaker, as the unemployment rates so far this year have improved in many provinces but they have worsened in three provinces, namely, Ontario, New Bru nswick and Manitoba and of th ose th ree provinces, in which the unemployment picture has worsened, Manitoba comes off looking the very poorest. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I think the objective of any responsible government is to improve on the unemployment rate year over year.

If the member would look at what the unemployment figure was at this time last year, then he would find that we are approximately .7 percent better and if we carried on and kept that type of improvement over the course of the year, I would think, I would really hope, that the Member for Brandon East would be pleased rather than trying to predict some type of doom and gloom for Manitoba. There are no figures that I have that indicate that employment is going to get worse in Manitoba and I don't think the last month or two is any indication of a trend in any way, shape or form, Mr. Sp eaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Logan. 3593

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Min ister of Consumer Affairs. Mr. Speaker, I forwarded a copy of the circular letter to the Min ister from Mr. D. H. Beattie, the Manager of Consumer and Commercial banking of the Royal Bank of Canada. The letter deals with the information requested by the banks on dossiers on Members of Parliament in particular, the two new Members of Parliament, Messrs. Cyril Keeper and Laverne Lewycky.

My question to the Min ister is, would the Minister take as notice for his department to investigate if this is in violation to The Personal Investigations Act that we have passed here in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister of Consumer Affairs. MR. JORGENSON: Yes, I thank my honour able friend for forwarding a copy of the commun ication that has come into his hands. I will undertake to look into that particular matter for him. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Mini ster.

Would the Min ister also, when he's making this investigation, ascertain if such files are being maintained on all Members of Parliament representing Manitoba ridings? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't want to presume to answer for the Royal Bank, but I will see what I can find out in respect to this particular matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urab le Memb er for Logan with a final supplementary. MR. JENKINS: Mr.

Speaker, since it seems that these financial dossiers are being maintained on federal Members of Parliament, I would also ask the Min ister if he can ascertain if such files are being maintained on present members of the Legislative Assembly, because I think it is an invasion of our privacy. MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I presume that they have a file on me as well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Mini ster of Muni cipal Affairs.

In view of the fact that in one of yesterday's papers there was a statement quoting the Min ister indicating that he was not going to probe the land deal in Elie municipa lity, and in view of the fact that in today's paper there's a headline indicating that he is going to do a probe on that Elie case, could he advise the Ho use specifically whether he will or will no t investigate this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. With respect to the probe at Elie, I am not aware of what that is all about.

I was replying to a question asked of me by the Leader of the Opposition, to supply information with respect to the case and present it at the time of my estimates in Com mittee of Supp ly. I'm not responsible for the

article in the paper. MR. SC HROEDER: A supp lement ary to the Min ister then. In view of the fact that he indicated to the House yesterday that he was going to bringing as much information as I can to that comm ittee, is he now saying that he is not going to do everything he can to bring information to that committee, and if he is going to do everything he can, surely that means a probe? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the definition of a probe, I again reiterate that I plan on bringing the information that is available, through my department, at the time of my estimates. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Me mber for Rossmere with a final supplementary. MR. SC HROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question to the Attorney-General.

In view of the incredible potential hazards which can be inflicted upon an unsuspecting populace by bureaucrats who provide us with smoke screens about the purpose of their act ivities and the natur e of the tests as confirmed by recent news stories with respect to the tests in Winnip eg, and in view of the fact that knowledge by those very same bur eaucrats that their activities may be subjected to public scrutiny if we had freedom of information legislation, will he now indicate to the House whether he will support the proposal brought forth by the Honou rable Member for Transcona with respect to freedom of information legislation?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, as I recollect, the motion that was passed by the Legislature was to the effect that the government of Manitoba consider the advisability of establishing a committee to consider such legislation. I believe that was last spring that that was adopted. Subsequent to that the previous federal government introduced a freedom of information bill in the House of Commons, which was not passed prior to the most recent federal election.

It was my view that we should consider that bill and its provisions and its effects, and we were in fact engaged department by department in attempting to determine the effects of that piece of legislation. Of course that bill was never passed. I understand the present federal government are now considering another form of a freedom of information bill.

I think it would be helpful to any committee of the House that would be established pursuant to the motion that was passed by the Legislature, to have before it tha t pro posed legislation and some understanding of the manner in which it is being introduced and actually followed. So I would hope firstly, Mr. Speaker, that we would have that experience of having that bill brought forward for consideration of the members of the Legislature. 3594

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urab le Memb er for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Min ister responsible for Lotteries. Can the Mi nister indicate whether the federal government has accepted the first qua rterly payment under the Federal-Provincial Loto Canada Agreement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that a certified cheque was delivered to the Federal Mini ster in charge of Fitness and Amateur Sport.

The cheque, as I mentioned, had been certified. It was delivered during the latter part of March for the first quarter instalment with regard to the provincial takeover of the Loto Canada Agreement. It's also my understanding that that cheque has been returned and substituted by an ordina ry cheque and at present the federal government has not accepted their first quarterly payment with regard to that particular agreement. MR. DRIEDGER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the Mi ni ster indi cate what the government's position or policy is in this matter now? MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, as the member is possibly aware, the lottery was taken over by the provinces as of Janu ary 1, 19 80. We are conducting that lottery at present. We have informed the federal government of the fact that we believe we have an agreement signed by all the 10 provinces and the federal government. We are firm on the position that that agreement is there and must stand, and we'll be pressing the federal government along that line. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Attorney-General.

I wonder if his investigation, or determining the advisability of The Freedom of Inf ormation Act, whether he's examined the possibility, whether it's one of their limitations on him proceeding, of subversives using that legislation, because there seems to be a lot of subversives around according to the First Min ister. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honour able Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Min ister of Man power in relation to northern unemployment.

I'd like to ask the Min ister of Man power, what was the Pukatawagan operation that employed eight to twelve people in northern Manitoba and has been sold by the Min ister to private enterprise, if that operation is still operating and how many people are emp loyed at tha t operation? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ura ble Min ister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: To the best of my knowledge, Mr.

Speaker, that particular operation at one time employed 18 or 20 people, and it was determined it really should have had five or six, and that five or six people were employed in that operation, and it was sold to one of the - I can't remember the name of the gentleman from Jenpeg, he's a friend of the Member for The Pas so he knows who I'm talking about - and to another gentleman in Wabowden who felt that they were going to do very well with it and the last I heard was that the orders that they had expected, and this is possibly a year ago, hadn't all come through.

Now if the member is asking if it's actually an operation today I can find out for him but I can't specifically tell him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Manpower. I wonder if the Minister of Manpower could inform us whether Mistik Creek Loggers which employed from 22 to 28 persons in no rthern Manitoba and which was sold by himself or his government, if it's still in operation, how many people is it currently employing? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: I'll have to check that out, Mr.

Speaker, I don't have the numbers on employment in that particular operation. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period having expired, proceed. COMMI TTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Mem ber for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Mr. Speaker, I have a change on the Economic Development; substitute the name of Mr. Hyde for Mr. Brown. MR. SPEAKER: Is that change in the Economic Development Committee agreeable to the House? (Agreed). BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Go vernment House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I migh t firstly indicate, I think, as we did earlier, that the Public Utilities Committee having completed consideration of M PIC, tha t the Com mittee on Economic Development will meet on Thursday at 10 :00 o'clock to consider Channel Area Loggers and Moose Lake Loggers and the responsible Min isters will attempt to sup ply an agenda of further busi ness for that comm ittee which will continue the following week. Mr. Speaker, will you call Adjourned Debate on the proposed motion of the Hono urable Min ister of Finance. 3595 ADJOURNED DEBA TE - RESOLU TION THE MINERAL TAXATION AC T

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: On the Proposed Motion of the Honourable Mini ster of Finance dealing with The Mineral Taxation Act, being

chapter M15 0, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. I adjourned this debate on behalf of the Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Memb er for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday we had an opportunity to examine the resolution in co-operation of the Minister and his staff and have satisfied ou rselves tha t it didn't need an admin istrative change.

It's essentially a technical change that is being proposed at this time and I understand it removes some disincentive that now exists in the way the regulations now read, and therefore, I don't believe we'd have much trouble with it. It's unfortuna te that it was left rather late, the eleventh hour, but at any rate we do unde rstand that this change can bring about some additional revenue to the Crown and also to provide some additional incentive to the producers involved, so we are prepared to see this particular resolution passed. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Go vernment House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Min ister of Go vernment Services, tha t Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no urable Mem ber for Churchill. MR. COWAN: It is customary, I believe, when entering into a grievance in this House to first state that you had not intended to enter into such a grievance and that is so when you do not appear to be as totally prepared as you should be, you have a built in excuse.

But the fact is, Mr. Speaker, that I had not intended to use my grievance opportunity today. -(I nterjection)- The Member for Elmwood says everybody says that and he's absolutely correct. But I did believe, and I do believe, that the figures that came out today, coupled with figures that we have seen in this House in the last number of days, are of enough significance to prod me to my feet at this earliest opportunity to do what I can do to encourage the government to take note of those figures and do what is in my power to encourage the government to act on those figures.

I'm not operating under the illusion that I am going to have any effect on their budget, but I do hope that the figures that they have seen over the past number of days will have an effect on their budget. I am concerned they will not, because they have turned their back on the economic catastrophies that they have created over the past numb er of years time and time again.

They have been stuck in the morass of laisez-faire capitalism and failed to react positively to some very serious problems, that were not entirely of their making, in all fairness to them. -(I nterjection)- No, they were problems that the entire country was experiencing. As a matter of fact, in some circumstances, they were problems that the entire western industrial world was facing.

But the fact is that other jurisdictions, other governments, more enlightened than the one we have, have taken action, have tried to deal with it, and have been in some way able to in certain instances reduce the impact that those economic conditions had on the people that they were elected to represent.

So they have turned their back not only on the economic conditions that they have created but they have turned their back on the people who elected them, the people who put a certain amount of faith and trust in their abilities to come through with what were some fairly significant election promises, promises that they have failed to keep, promises that they cannot keep, and promises that I believe the people of this province have every right to expect them to keep.

I believe it has been, and I don't want to use an un parliamentary term here, but I believe that at the very least it has been somewhat reprehensible that they have been unable to keep some very significant promises upon which they were elected. Several years ago, when this government first came into these Chambers flushed with their victory, fresh off the campaign trai l, in which they had prom ised a new vision, a new society, a new Manitoba, we all remember, Mr.

Speaker, the free Ma ni toba bird flying over this province, free Manitoba, and there was a little ditty that went along with it. -(I nterjection)- I don't make any specific reference to any members opposite when I say little ditty. There was a little ditty that went along with this song, Free Manitoba. Well, what sort of freedom have we seen? What sort of freedom have they been able to gi ve the people of this provinc e? The freedom to leave, the encouragement to leave, because tho se people aren 't leaving Man itoba because they want to leave their homes.

Those people aren't uprooting their families because they want to uproot their families. They're leaving this province because of the conditions that government has created. That government has forced them out the door as if it had pushed them out physically by refusing to deal in any sort of significant manner with the problems that confronted them. They have done that, Mr. Speaker, as surely as if they had opened the door, packed the bags, and sent them on their way with farewell wishes. They promised us a freer Manitoba. That's the one freedom. We also have a freedom to be unemp loyed now. Mr.

Speaker, a quick perusal of the statistics indicate that since this government took office, in this government's term, since October 1977, that the labour force has increased by approximately 18 ,000 people; that has been the increase in the labour force, and the increase in the number of employed has been 8,000 people. That means that 55 percent of the people who have come into the labour force since this government took office have been unable to find work. And we wonder why they're leaving the province in droves? There's no need to wonder why; 3596

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 if you can't find a job and you want a job and you want to work, then you are going to go where there is work. You are going to go to our sister province to the west, Saskatchew an, where we have an enlightened government that is attempting to deal with some of the serious and sign ificant problems that they find themselves in as a part of the country and as a part of the western industrial world. That is why they're leaving. They' re leaving for Alberta because of the employment opportunities there.

They're heading west and they're heading east because there are better employment opportunities for them elsewhere. Mr.

Speaker, in 19 79, 38,900 persons left this province. 38,900 persons thought it necessary for them to uproot themselves and their families in order to seek a better life in a better provinc e. - (I nterject ion)- The Min ister respo nsi ble for Government Services says the same number left in 1975, well I'm certain that the Member for Brandon East would like to discuss those details with that member because the significant fact is that more and more persons are leaving and fewer and fewer persons are coming in. The fact is that 38,900 group represented 3. 7 percent of our province.

Nearly 4 percent of our province found it necessary to leave, to abandon their homes, in order to find economic conditions that this government refused to help to create, Mr. Speaker. The net loss, and we'll have to talk about the net loss, the net loss was 15 ,457 through migration. That's the largest net loss through migration in the province of Mani toba since the data has been compiled. We can go back as far as you would want to go back, Mr. Speaker, and you will not find a larger net decrease in the popula tion through migration.

You will not find it and that has to be a reflection on the total and utter failure of this government to deal with the circumstances in which it found itself. It is a rejection of all their promises. Mr. Speaker, 5,000 people represents the net loss in population. There are 5,000 fewer people in Manitoba today than there were in 19 79; again because of the policies of this government in part; again because they failed to govern in the way in which they promised; again because they have been unable to grasp the reins of power and to deal with it in any sort of an effective and comprehensive manner.

I feel particularly saddene d by this because thousands of those persons were from northern Manitoba, an area I represent; thousands of those persons left the province and they left the province because of increased unemployment. We saw the figures today. When that government came in power in 1977, the unemployment rate in northern Manitoba was 4.4 percent. 4.4 percent was the figure and today we see it go up nearly two percentage points in one month to 9.5 percent, double, over double what is was when they took office. Is there little wonder why people are leaving northern Manitoba?

Is there little wonder why the houses are boarded up, the windows in the apartments are boarded up in Thompson? Is there little wonder why the windows are boarded in many of the trailers in Gillam? No, one should not have to search very far for the answer to tha t qu estion. The answer for that question is a failure of the government to deal with the problems in a comprehensive manner, and we will keep coming back to that because that is the sad truth of the matter. That is the sad fact that has forced thousands of people out of this province and thousands of people out of northern Manitoba.

They left because there was a lack of opportunity. You know, if you don't see any future, Mr. Speaker, there's very little reason to stay around and that is what they have stolen from the people of Manitoba - their future - their future to live in a province tha t could provide them with jobs, economic opportunity and equality. That's what they have taken out of the grasp of Manitobans. We had that and they have taken it away, and let them deny it because that is a fact. They left because of job stagnation.

They talk about the number of jobs they have created but the facts are that they have been unable to keep up with the record of the rest of the province and the country in any significant way; that they have created a local depression, specifically in northern Manitoba but, to a lesser extent, perhaps just a local recession in the province as a whole. I don't use those terms in the economic sense, Mr. Speaker, I use them in the philosophical and the sociological sense, but that's what we have.

They've localized recession and depr ession in the province of Manitoba and they have done so because of their failure to act, because of their refusal to govern. They left because of a depressed economic order; they left because there was not the opportunity. Mr. Speaker, in 19 79 the Canadian population increased by 9.4 percent on a whole, as an average, nearly a 10 percent increase, 9.4 percent to be specific. In Manitoba in that same year, what did we experience? Did we ride along with the rest of the country? Were we able to keep up with the rest of the country? No, we were not.

We were the only province to show a decrease and that decrease was 4.3 percent. Those are significant figures statistically, but I will guarantee you that they are more significant to the in dividuals that must suffer through the upheaval, to the individuals that must deal with moving to a new province to find work. What are we talking about? Are we talking about a Mecca; are we talking about a utopia? No, we're talking about a job. Everybody has the right to a job if they wish to work.

There is no more basic right than that right to a job and they are finding in this province of Manitoba that they've lost that right, that they've been stripped of that right by the government's actions. So when they go through Gillam and they see the trailers being moved out and the windows boarded up, in Lynn Lake and Thompson, they have to feel some remorse for the fact that they have been unable to do anything to try to prevent the whole scale out-migration of persons from this province and a decrease in the number of people coming in, because that's part of the equation to, you must have both sides.

The fact is people don't want to come to Manitoba and would you? Would you want to come to Manitoba if you felt you had to live under that government? Would you want to come to Manitoba if you believed that you would not be able to find a job? We're doing our best to encourage people to come to this province, not just as tourists but as long-term residents, but we are finding it 3597

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 difficult when the government is doing their best to discourage them from doing the same. We're finding it difficult indeed. Mr. Speaker, when they came, a number of years ago, as I said, flushed, pin k-cheeked with the victory they had just won. And it was a significant victory, let us not take that away from them. They fooled a lot of people.

They fooled a lot of people with their false promises, but one of the first things they said they were going to do was put private enterprise back in the saddle. -(I nterjec tion)- The engine of the economy, the Member for Transcona says, and that was the words of the Fir st Min ister and his colleagues during that first session. I don't know how many times I heard it. The engine of the economy. Private enterprise will ride tall in the saddle again in this province. They were going to test their ability to view the economy, to create a new economic order that would benefit all Manitobans.

They put in place a neo-cons ervative experiment in laissez-faire capitalis m and we see the results today. - (I nterjection)- Shades of Milton Freeman says the Member for Brandon East. We see the results today. That experiment has been a total and utter failure. -(Int erjection)- Not true says the Mi n ister responsible for Autopac.

Then let him stand, when I have finished my contribution and have sat in my seat, let him stand and refute the arguments; let him refute the statistics; let him prove to us that the neo­ conservative experiment and laissez-faire capitalism has been anything other than a complete, total, abject failure. It has been a bust and the bust has been a bust of our economy. Three years ago they put the capitalists in the saddle and the people of Manitoba have been taken for a ride since. That is a fact; the people of Manitoba have been taken for a ride because of their policies.

We have a declining population, and there is no argument against that. There is no argument that the Min ister responsible for Autopac or any other member from that side can present that will convince myself or any other thinking person in this province that we have not suffered a declining population, and that has been in face of increasing populations in other provinces. And it is unusual for Manitoba; it is unusual for Mani toba, although it may be peculiar to their administration. We have seen a deplorable economic record over the past couple of years since the Tory government has been in power.

There has been a failure to match the nation's employment growth; there has been a failure to match what has been happening in provinc es west and east of us. They have been unable to keep up with the economic flush that the rest of the country is feeling. They have been unable to provide the sort of employment oppc;>rtunities for Manitobans that are being provided for other citizens of other provinces in other jurisdictions. They would rather prophesize now than review the figures. When, Mr.

Speaker, we have opportunity to review the record next year, we will see as to the validity of the conference board 's projections and prophecies, because that's what they are. I'm certain that the conference board did not take into account the neo­ conservative mentality of the government in their refusal to act in any sort of a positive interchange with the economy as a whole. So, if we had a good government in, perhaps those predictions might come true, but the fact is, Mr. Speaker, that we don't have a good government in the province of Manitoba.

We have seen our employment growth compare negatively to employment growth in other provinces. We have also seen the wages in the province of Manitoba fall behind in relationship to wages being paid in other provinc es, and the Membe r for Brandon East brought this matter to the attention of the Min ister of Labour, not too long ago, who should have been concerned, who should have questioned those figures and said, My goodness, we have to do something about that. But what did the Minister say? The Min ister tried to blame the unions.

The Min ister said the low-wage rates, the low-wage growth, and annual weekly wage in the province of Manitoba is because the unions have not been able to do their job to keep their settlements up and suck the rest of the wage earners along. That was his answer to a very serious situation. Not, my goodness, what have we done or what can we do to try to rectify that inequ ity, but blame someone else. That is a tactic tha t we have gr own used to; we shou ldn't be surprised but, Mr. Speaker, that tactic does not deal any better today to myself than it did three years ago or two years ago.

I tell them it will not feel any better next year, because it is not the honest way to deal with the problem. It is not the proper way to deal with the problem. If there has been one single factor that we can isolate - and I'll ask the Member for Transcona to listen carefully and the Member for Brandon East to help me out of this if I get in a jam - but it is my opinion that if there had been one single factor that we can isolate that is responsible for a small growth in the average weekly wage, it is the government's restraint policy that they put in place when they came into power. They will admit it.

If you go back through Hansard and you go back through the press clippings, you will find that they have said in effect that are doing that, not only to keep government's costs down but to provide an example for private enterprise, and that's what's happened. They shouldn't be surprised. They have provided that example and they have decreased the standard of living in this province. They have turned us into a low-wage province. They have done so through that action, which could have no other effect.

When you keep the percentage increases down to the levels that they kept the percentage increases down in the first two years of their government, you will find that has a ripple effect throughout the economy. You will find that the results will be a decrease in other wages and, try as the unions may, and they gave it their best shot, they will have difficulty in overcoming the power of the economic clout that government wheels. They will continue to try; I know that because I speak to them; I know that because I listen to them.

They will continue to try, but the fact is, as long as that government puts the skids on the economy in the way that they have, they are going to be in extreme difficulty in regard to increasing the wages to levels to which they should be increased. The people of this province are not keeping up with the cost of living, Mr. Speaker, or at least they are not exceeding it. The fact is, that has to result in a decreased standard of living. We are not just talking about one part of the equation, one figure; 3598

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 the fact is, that they have been unable to keep their wages increasing at the level that the inflation rate has been increasing in the province. That was another thing that the government had promised us, that because of this restraint policy, because of their ability to put the skids on government spending, we were going to have decreased inflation. We were going to lower the cost of living. Has that been the fact, has that been the case? No. No, it has not.

The fact is that the cost of living has increased, as it has in other provinces, roughly at the same rate, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, but the wage rates haven't. So who is being forced to pay for the refusal of that government to deal in a positive sense with our economy? The wage earner. The wage earner has to suffer the brunt of the impact. Mr. Speaker, is that fair to the people that voted this government into power?

No, it's not fair, and it is especially unfair in the sense that they have promised them better and they were unable to come up with their promises, not because it was impossible to do, but because they didn't want to do it. Because those promises were for power and for power only, and once they achieved that power, then we saw those promises being conveniently ignored. That, Sir, is a fact.

So by their wage restraint policy, which we are too familiar with in the first nu mber of years, they provided an example to private enterprise to do the same, and they provide d suppor t to priv ate enterprise when they attempted to do that, and we are forced to live with a decreased standard of living. Not us, in these Chambers, because they have taken care of us. They had to, because they have taken care of themselves; we haven't been the ones that have been forced to suffer those sort of economic restraints, but the people outside of these Chambers have been forced to suffer those economic restraints.

People outside of these Cham bers have had to bear the brunt of the Tory neo-conservative experiment, laissey-faire capitalism. And I'm not talking doom and gloom. You notice how, whenever we stand and wish to discuss this subject, it's doom and gloom. It's doom and gloom on this side. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, what we are discussing is not a figment of our imagination. It is not a statistical game, and I resent the implication of the Min ister of Labour today when he says that it is. To try to deflect honest and sincere criticism for his stubborn actions off of himself.

Did he answer any questions today in the question period? No, he did not answer those questions. Instead, he tried to imply that our motives were not valid; he tried to imply th at we did not sin cerely have the best interests of the people of this province in mind when we asked those questions. He tried to imply that we were playing a statistical game on every second Tuesday of the month. Well, if there is a statistical game being played, Mr. Speaker, it is a cruel game and it is a game that government is imposing on the people of this province. Let's look at the facts.

Since their experiment was begun in October of 19 77, a dreadful month for the province of Manitoba, we have seen some of the worst employment records in relationship to other provinces that this province has ever seen. Since December of 1979, and let's use that period for the time being because it is a logical period to use.

I remember when we asked the First Minister for some indication of actions that his government was going to take when there was a significant increase in the unempl oyment rate in this province a couple of months ago, he said: Look, you just can't take this month and compare it with that month because there are trends; because one has 10 compare at least three to four months. Those are his words and that is a criteria which he set, a three to four month comparison. Let's look at it.

Since December, 1979 we have had the largest increase in the number of unemp loyed in this province in comparison to the other provinces, and it is the largest increase by a signi ficant amount. We' re not talking about a piddling amount here, we're talking about some sizeable percentages. To make the record read as it should, I'll take the time to put them on. The number of unemp loyed in Canada in that same period incr eased by 5. 7 percent. So as a nation it increased by 5.7 percent. Now compare that to Manitoba's increase, which was 31. 8 percent. Do you see the difference for that four­ month period?

It is a large and a significant and a disastrous difference. Newfoundland's went down 10 percent. P.E.1. stayed the same. Nova Scotia's went down 6.9 percent. New Brunswick went up 6.9 percent. Quebec went up 7 .5 percent. Ontario went up 18 .8 percent. Manitoba went up 31. 8 percent, as I said before, the largest increase. Saskatchewan went down 5.6 percent. What's the difference between Saskatchewan, which sits here, and Manitoba, which sits here? Why would Saskatchewan's go down 5.6 percent and why would Manitoba's go up 31. 8 percen t? - (I nterjection)- I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that it cannot be all attributed to this one fact but it can be largely attributed to this one fact and that is that the province of Manitoba, the people who govern the province of Manitoba, want to do something about the conditions they face. They want to create a better society and they know, in order to do so, they must deal in a positive interface with the economy as a whole. I'm not suggesting that they don't want to do something about the economy. I'm not suggesting that that's the case, that their motives are rotten.

What I am suggesting is: They know that they should; they probably feel that they should; they would like to, but they can't. And why can't they? Because they' re trapped in tha t neocapitalism mentality, that they can't put their hands on the economy, a hands-off approach. Let it ride. Put private enterprise in the saddle and let the people of the province be taken for a ride, and that's what's happened. -(Interje ction)- Shades of R.B.

Bennett indeed, indeed. -(l nterjection)- Alberta, to complete the statistical computation, Alber ta had no in crease in the numb er of unemplo yed and B.C. actually decreased by 4.4 percent. Now I just had opportunity to hear one of the members opposite. I believe it was the former Min ister of Labour who said, he's wasting all this time, he's wasting all this time. Well, let me suggest that there has been time wasted; it has been two­ and-a-half and three years that has been wasted by a government that has refused to deal with the problems that confront it, and that's a waste of time. 3599

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 If I can encourage them one minute sooner or one day sooner to start fulfilling their responsibility as a government, I'll stand up here and talk as long as the House w!ll allow me to talk. -(In terjection)- If I can do that, I will do it, because they obviously need that sort of encouragement. Let us look at a different set of statistics that might be comparable and that, sir, is the number of employed in Manitoba.

Now the government, from time to time, whenever we start talking about some of the economic situations that face us, always pose out, well, there are so many more employed today than there were last year. There was this number of employed; there were that numb er of employed; and we have a tremendous record in comparison to the last couple of years of . the New Democratic Party administration. Let's see how they're comparing with the rest of the provinces and let's do our statistical analysis again. The numb er of emplo yed in Canada since December, 1979, in creased by 9/10 of 1 percent.

That is the average increase. Now for comparison purposes, let's look at Manitoba. What was the average increase since December, 1979? Nothing, zilch, zero, no t one. Does tha t sound like a favourable comparison? No, it's not a favourable comparison. It is a comparison that indicates very clearly that this government has been unable to do any thing sign ificant in regard to the declining economy. Newfoundland increased by 3.9 percent. I'll have to correct the record if I can, Mr. Speaker, because P.E.I. did decrease. P.E.

I. had a 2.1 percent decrease in the number of employed, so we're again the second worst and not the worst. Nova Scotia had a 1.5 percent increase. New Brunswick, on the other hand, had a 1.6 percent increase. These are all these areas that we have considered to be depressed economies, localized depressions, and yet they are out-performing, for the most part, our own economy. I say that not to cast any negative reflections on the people of this province because I think they're doing their utmost to turn around a situation that has been created by the government.

But I say that because the go vernment must come to gr ips with the situation that they are creating. They must come to grips with the effects of their actions. Quebec, everyone talks about the trouble that Quebec is having because of the referendum and people leaving the province, businesses leaving the province, yet they had a 1 percent increase in that same period in the number of employed. Ontario had 1/10 of 1 percent increase, very close to the record of Manitoba, another Conservative government, I might add.

But I'm not meaning to imply that all Conservative governments cannot reac:t positively, I'm meaning to imply that they have a tendency not to. I would wish to say that historically, they have not and that that has been to the detrimental impact on the people of the province that they represent as a whole. But the fact is that they do not always perform in such a regressive and retrograde manner as the administration that is in power now. Saskatchewan had a 1.9 percent increase in the number of employed. Again, we'll let you draw your own conclusions, Mr. Speaker, but we believe the example to be obvious.

We believe that one can only draw one conclusion from the figures that we have given you. Alberta has a 2.1 percent increase and B.C. has a 2 percent increase. So what we have seen, again, is the second worst record in Canada in regard to employment growth. So let them not cart out the apples and oranges traits and make the comparisons and paint the half pictures that they have painted in the future, and try to fool the people of this province into believing that all is well in the province of Manitoba.

The fact is that it is not, the fact is, that they know it is not and the irrefutable fact, and the fact that will result in the downfall of that government, is that the people of the province of Manitoba know it is not and they are not going to be fooled by the shenanigans, and they are not going to be fooled by the attempts, and they are not going to be fooled by the statistical game-playing of the members opposite, the members of a Progressive Conservative government that has failed them in almost every respect. They have attempted to refute those statistics. I will have to give them credit, Mr.

Speaker, they have attempted time and time and time again to refute the statistics that we have provided them from this side, statistics that are based in fact. But because those statistics are based in fact, they have been unable to refute them. Because those statistics are a true indication of the situation that confronts them, they have been unable to confront them.

And all their shenanigans and all their statistical game-playing and all their sending out the Minis ter of Natural Resources to do battle for them will have little im pact because, as we said earlier, they use statistics as a drunk uses a lamp-post in the middle of the night, not so much for illumination but more for support and when you see an inebriated person leaning against that lamp post, you know why that person is leaning against that lamp post.

You know why that person needs that lamp post, and the people of the province have seen through this government right from the very first day and they have seen them leaning against the lamp post of statistics and they have seen through their act. Because while they may be using those statistics as a lamp post, those statistics also provide illumination and this side and the people of this province have been using them for that purpose.

So what we see is a government that is unwilling to act, a government that has placed the fate of the people of this province into the hands of an elite few and those elite few have been unable to meet that challenge. I'm not suggesting that there always unable to meet that challenge, I happen to think tha t on very few occasions are they able to meet that challenge but the fact is that in thi s particular instance, and we can prove it and we have proved it, time and time again, they have been unable to meet that challenge.

We will have a Budget tonight, I believe, and we expect, as do the people of Manitoba, that there should be some affirmative programs in that Budget to deal with the situations that we find in the province in regard to employment, to deal with the problems that we find in the province in regard to unemp loyment and, in specific, to deal with some of the very major economic dislocations that we have suffered in no rthern Ma ni toba because of tha t government's actions. I do not expect that we will. I do not expect that we will because we have not in 3600

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 the past. We have not seen that sort of program come from this government. I may be fooled somewhat because this government has turned its back to a certain degree on its own historical ideology. Autopac is a perfect example that's in the news recently. But I believe, Sir, that was not an honest attempt to deal with the province because if it was an honest attempt we would have seen some progressive programs. All it was, was a last gasp effort to turn around public opinion to, to turn around the fact that people know what that government is doing.

It is a last grasp at the straw that they have kept out of the reach of the people of this province for the last three years. - (I nterjection) The Minister responsible for Autopac says they are getting close to half their term. Well they are getting close, Sir, to the end of their term and it will not be for him to decide and it will not be for I to decide but it will be for the people of this province to decide and I think we know already what their decision will be.

I think the handwriting is on the wall and if they dare to ignore the federal elections and if they dare to ignore the polls as we know they have done, then they do so at their own peril but the fact is that the people will not ignore the record of that government and it is a record upon which they will be defeated and they will be defeated in short order. Mr.

Speaker, in the last moment that is available to me, I implore upon the government to cast aside their ideological blinkers; I implore them to cast aside their philosophical strait jacket and to do something positive and comprehensive for the people of this province so that people will no longer leave Manitoba but that they will want to come in to Manitoba; so that people will find jobs here; so that people will have a better standard of living here; so that the people of this province will live under better conditions because, Sir, when they live under better conditions, we all live under better conditions.

So it is for them and it is for us that I implore that government to denounce their actions of the last three years in their Budget Speech tonight and to bring forth programs that will benefit all Manitobans and will benefit them in a positive, comprehensive and full manner. MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Commu ni ty Services and Corrections, and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture.

CONCUR REN T COMMI TTEES OF SU PPLY SU PPLY - AGRICU LTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. We're on Resolution No. 8, 3. Administration, the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAM USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I would have thought that the Minister would have wanted to get organized in order that he would give us an opening statement as to what he is intending to do with respect to the outrageous usuary rates farmers are subjected to these days, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Chairman, first of all let me open my remarks on the Manitoba Agriculture Credit Corporation by suggesting that some of the im mediate concerns facing the department and the government as it relates to agricul ture credit, is the con cern for the farm commun ity, particularly in light of the extreme drought conditions, high input costs, high interest costs to farmers, and what really has to be done to address those particular problems.

We have, to this particular point, both long-term programs introduced to alleviate some of the long er-term credit requirements, particularly of the beginning farmer, but again the immediate concern is some of the problems that the farming community are facing with the extended period of dry conditions and have felt it necessary to relate to the federal mi nister the situation, the ground water conditions, the extended period of hot, dry weather, the possibi lities of shortages of pasture; have been identifying the hay conditions or the supplies of hay that are available, and have had our committee, internally within the department, chaired by Mr.

Ed Hudek, who is the Associate Deputy Minister, to make sure that the pumping equipment is in position and available to the farming community, to alleviate some of the water short probl ems. This may no t be the appropria te time, but it does fit in with some of the work that I think that MACC can do as far as looking at the credit requirements of the farm community in the longer term, but want to alert the committee that we are taking some active measures at this particular time to deal with the current situation as it relates to the farm community and the problems they are facing.

The Manitoba Agriculture Credit Corporation, as members are aware, is an organization available to the farm community. We have seen over the past several months since the introduction of some of our programs, I believe that, from the period of time, the end of July 19 78 to this particular period of time, with our different types of loans and programs available we have seen a fairly broad acceptance of the programs that have been introduced to the farm community.

Again, I think it's a matter of targetting the programs to assist the farm communitie s on where they require longer-term credit needs, who are un able to get funds from conventional lending institutes, or where in fact those loans that they obtain are very difficult for the young farmers or the farm commun ity to pay back the loan and the interest rates. So it is targetted at a group of the agricultural community that I feel it's imp ortant that we assist on an ongoing basis.

It is difficult to put in a program that tries to alleviate all the credit needs of the farm communi ty, because of the limitations of capital. And the other side of that argument, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that if any sources of funds become an over-abundant supply, which has never been the hi story of agriculture, but you can get in the situation where it does encourage the costs of land or the increased prices of land to the point of where again this becomes a hardship on those people who are trying to buy land.

So I think it's a matter of trying to keep the proper balance within the agricultural financing. 3601

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 We have had certain properties, Mr. Chairman, that we have seen become available to the farm community on a lease basis, the properties that have been either not bought by the farmer who has been on a lease basis or in fact not desirous of continuing on with that lease program, that those properties that are surplus to the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation had been offered for sale. A certain number of them have been sold. A certain number of those that haven't been sold have been offered to the farm community to lease on a basis from one to three years.

I think it's a matter of trying to make sure that the interests of the farm community are looked after in the best possible way, that the funds that are invested by the province are looked after in a responsible manner, that proper land management practices are put in place, and that we in fact are affording those who are both desirous of either buying or using the Agricultural Credit Corporation or land that they would get through it in the best interests of the long-term agricultural needs of those farmers. Those general broad statements, Mr. Chairman, I think pretty well cover the overall developments.

As I say, we have sold some of the lands that have been surplus to the Credit Corporation. We have leased some of the lands that have not been sold. And as the members of the commit tee are aware, the Corporation is administered, there is a board of directors who are involved in the operation of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation.

I should also like to say that I think it is in the best interests of the agricultural community and of government people that we support these kind of programs, that we continue to enhance them, because when we have a strong agricultural community we'll have a strong provincial economy and it's through vehicles like this that we are able to support the farmers or the people who are desirous of becoming farmers. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I somewhat was expecting a different course of presentation from the Mini ster, having to do with his analysis of, at least if he doesn't have an analysis he should have had one, as to what the position is of all those people who now have a contract with MACC as to the amounts of dollars in the glob al sense, the numb er of contracts, the number of contracts in arrears and at what interest rates, and whether or not the Minister can see an out for some of these people who are in some difficulty and, in particular, because of the escalating cost of credit.

Those are the answers we're looking for in terms of policy direction from the government. Certainly he has powers to deal with his own clients with respect to that question, and he has not even touched on that subj ect whatever, Mr. Chairman, other than to talk in general terms about the nature of the operation of MACC and what it could or could not do in terms of financing. We're really desirous of learning from him just what are his options, what is he intending to do with respect to the credit crunch that is facing a number of his clients and which may force some people out of business.

What is his intention, in terms of policy, how does he intend to deal with that problem? I think that is quite different from a normal situation where a person has simply not been able to manage his operation and therefore retire his debt, but I think everyone agrees that we do have a very abnormal credit situation at the moment and certainly there ought to be some answers from the government as to what the government intends to do with its own client. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, to go back to the member's first question, if I'd answered all the questions with my opening statement, then we wouldn!t have followed the precedent of the Agricultural Committee and we'd have passed this item without giving it the proper airing. I think it's in the best interests of the public at large that they be given an opportunity to ask some questions which they feel are important and, as I say, I think it's fair that we not answer all the questions with that opening statement but allow some questions for him to be asked.

The member brings forward a point which I was mentioning in my opening statement. There is a very severe situation, or has been a severe situation developed in the past few months with the extremely high interest rates that are being charged to, not only the farm community, but to the total commun ity. The farmers being the primary producers somewhat suffer more than anyone else these increased costs because it all stops at their particular desk or their field.

It's a matter of inflation, interest rates, in a lot of cases landing right squarely on the shoulders of the primary producers, and of course facing extreme weather conditions as they are, it puts an extra strain on those particular individuals who are entering into a period of extremely dry seeding season and critical times for livestock feed. I do not believe that it should be the government's responsibility to move in and take banks off the hook. I think, as I said earlier, that we will have to monitor the situation.

I plan to meet with the task force that was set up initially when we got into government, to discuss with them the curr ent situation as they see it with the farm communi ty. Many of them are suppliers of farm services. I do not, as I say, believe it is the responsibility of government to move in and pick up the debt that the banks have incurred with the farm community but feel that the banks have a responsibility to carry their fair share of the load and the continued support for the farm community for the farmers.

I do not think, particularly in a time of extreme situations as has developed over the past few months, that bankers should be calling loans on farmers who are in difficult times. I plan to further communic ate with the banking community, with the individuals involved. I will be arranging a meeting with them to make that point known to them very clearly, tha t I do no t believe that they should pressure farmers at this particular time when they're under such extreme pressure.

There are certain situations in these times, when we see people who have maybe expanded beyond their ability to pay back the moneys they have committed themselves to, but in other situations I think that there is a legitimate need for the banks to go the full distance and extend for those particular people, a longer term to pay that money back, or in fact put a roll-over clause in their loans to alleviate some of the problems, as I feel it's MACC's responsibility, the Ma ni toba Agricultur al Credit Corp orati on's 3602

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 responsibility not to force farmers into a situation of having to make panic moves that are not in the best interests of that particular farm unit or the farm community at large. We are dealing with it on a fairly broad basis by looking at the alternatives that we have, but I want to make this point, and make it very clear, that I think it is the responsibility of the banking community not to put extreme pressures on those farmers at this particular time.

I do not feel it is the responsibility of the government to bail the banks out, I think they should work in conjunction with one another to continue to support support the farm commun ity, because what happens, Mr. Chairman, if they don't. We see a massive problem develop, because we see the rural towns in Manitoba who rely almost entirely in most cases upon the farm communit y for the support of their small businesses, that if that farm community is not viable, then we immediately see the busin esses that rely on them get in to difficult straights too.

I have commun icated to the federal Min ister of Agriculture last Friday that it's essential that we look at and work together to develop programs that may be of assistance to the farmers. I think, as I said earlier today and I've said it now, that it is particularly a time, with the dual problem the farmers are facing both with high interest rates, high input costs, high fertilizer costs and extremely dry weather conditions.

I'm sure that there isn't any other time in history in this country when farmers are in a position of having extended themselves through bank loans or through suppli er-dealer loans to operate their businesses, that there is and there is going to be a severe strain placed on the people who are in volved in the agricultural commun ity. I understand that position and I want that relayed to the farm communi ty. That's why some of the actions that are being taken at this particular time are being taken.

Put yourself in the position of a farm person who is facing fertilizer dealers, fuel dealers or farm suppliers in general who requir e mo ney to keep their operations going. Each day that it doesn't rain, the farmer has got an additional strain on him, that it is a heavy load for him to be expected to carry.

We, as governments, have to address that problem, and we are, the same as I would be expecting the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation not to be forcing the hands of farmers at this particular time, where in fact we will be meeting with the board of directors to further assess the situation as they see it from their perspective to try and qua ntify the numbe rs of people that are in extremely difficult straights, and try and develop, if possible, alternative ways in which we can assist those particular people.

The overall credit program of the provincial government has been to assist, on a longer-term basis, farmers who have been desirous of buying their farms and owning them. I would have to indicate that there aren't any short-term programs that are in place that the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation have, but I think it is certainly one of the things we will be addressing when meeting with the board of directors and discussing what we may do on the short-term basis. But again, Mr.

Chairman, I want to emphasize, I do not feel it's the responsibility of the government to introduc e a program that takes the banking community off the hook as far as their responsibility to financing the farm commun ity. That's one of the things that I want to emphasize, and emphasize again, that it is their responsibility. They are in the business of financing farmers; they promoted their programs with the farm community, now I believe it is their responsibility to live with them and to see their way through it in the best way possible. We expect to do the same thing through the Provincial Credit Program. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, at least we have woken up the Minister of Agriculture in this province to the plight of the rural community in terms of credit, especially this year. For several months he has had his head in the sand, or else he's been sleeping, and he finally woke up to the fact that rural economy, farmers in particular, are in difficulty. Especially so, Mr.

Chairman, with respect to their availability of credit to do their spring seeding and all the costs that are associated with that, as well as trying to carry on with the financial load that many of them do carry in terms of long­ term borrowing. Mr. Chairman, while the Min ister makes nice plaudits that last Friday he has finally contacted the federal Min ister in terms of asking for federal assistance or prodding him. That's what he told us today, I commun icated last Friday with the federal Min ister. The problem has been with us, Mr . Chairman, evident for quite some time of what plight the farmers are in.

I believe -(I nterjection)- well, Mr. Chairman, it's not a matter of turning it around; it's a matter of providing some alternatives to the farmers. The Min ister says it's not up to the government to do it all, and I agree with the Min ister. I have no difficulty that the provincial treasury cannot absorb an entire new program in the area. But the Minister pointed to the very specific problem that farmers do face this spring, and that is a shortage of operating capital, in view of the high interest rates. His government curtailed the program of operating loans to farmers.

If they haven't curtailed it, has he an announc ement to make with respect to the availability of credit to farmers in terms of moneys being available to put in their seeding? I would hope that the Min ister would be able to indicate to us how many loans are there that the corporation has? We've got the 1978 -79 statistics; there must be an update of those statistics in terms of the statistics to date. You have 622 direct loans and I would assume that those are loans for the purchase of land.

There are three corporate loans; 124 stocker loans; land purchases, there are none; land leases, there are none; farm diversification loans and fishermen's loans. Mr. Chairman, can the Min ister bring us up to date on what his intentions are with respect to MACC and the crisis that farmers are being faced with today? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, on the interest issue and the high cost, some month ago, was the No. 1 item on the agenda when we met here in the city of Winnip eg; the No. 1 item was to bring to the attention to the federal Min ister my concerns about the overall economic conditions and the problems 3603

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 that we're facing. Again, with the extended period of dry weather, the two-fold problem has developed. So it's a matter of trying to come to grips with the situation and put in place something that - an extension of loans or the demands on those loans - to not push the farmers into an extreme situation, seeing people go out of business.

Now, we know that through the normal course of any period of time there are certain individuals that mismanage their operations and go out of business because of mism anagement, but I think th ose kinds of situations, this is not the case in this particular period of time. We're seeing a total community being extremely overburdened with the problems of higher interest rates and input costs, is a matter of total people who are providing funds, dealing with it on a collective basis, and I am sure most of the members here are sure that we will work our way through it.

Another reason for the option to allow the beef producers to proceed out of the beef program instead of paying funds back or livestock back to the province, to in fact, be able to opt out, because it would be a very unsure situation on one hand to be trying to demand money from those people, or introduce programs to help them, and then on the other hand be demanding money back on another gover nm ent program. It's a matter of being consistent and sincere in trying to help that farm community; that's what we're trying to do and are proceeding to, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I would like the Min ister to tell us whether there had been any shift in the number of loans that had been made from MACC for operational loans. Has there been a policy change on behalf of the government to allow loans to be made to farmers for operating capital? As the Mini ster agrees that the problem is right now a shortage of operating capital and credit for the farmers, is he prepared to change the policy that your go vernment stopped in 19 77 in terms of providing loans? MR. DCOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know what the member is referring to, that our government stopped providing loans. Mr. Chairman, that's the time when we started providing loans for the farm people, not stopping them. In fact, at that particular time, Mr.

Chairman, I would have to say that it was board decision to curtail some of the loans that were going into the farm machines, that the amount of money that was going out to buy farm equipment was picking up and accelerating at a rate which was using up the funds available, and the Corporation and the board of directors felt that it wasn't in the best in terests of the farm commun ity to over­ encourage the investment in farm machinery which was an inv estment that was a depreciable type piece of equipment, instead of allowing that money to flow in to the farm land whi ch was an appr eciating investment for the farmers.

So to say that loans were shut off is no t correct. Loans were redi rected somewhat and there was a continuation of financing into farm machinery, but not at the same accelerated rate as what the member may have liked to have seen. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister then go through the list of loans that the Corporation has presently outstanding, give us a breakdown of the loans that are presently enforced and what those loans are for. Could he give us a current update on the loan situation - the number of loans, what they are for, and the amount of money in each category, Mr.

Chairman - can he give us that breakdown? MR. DOWNEY: Basically, Mr. Chairman, the information that has been provided to me very recently, I believe it's approximately to the end of March, there is an excess of 600 direct loans. MR. URUSKI: And what are they for? MR. DOWNEY: Some of which are for land purcha ses, some of which are for direct land purchases, some of which are for lease conversions, which would still be for investment in land, some for impr ovements to land and buildings. MR. URUSKI: How many? MR. DOWNEY: I don't have the breakdown on the numb ers of loans in tha t particular area.

There are some moneys provided for debt consolidation, some loans for livestock, some for equipment, and some for other purposes. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister give us a rough estimate as to what the breakdown, what the percentage in those 600 would be directly related to land purchases, lease conversions and the like, as compared to, say, the improvement of equipment, livestock, and building purposes. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the recent figures on the land purchases would be 72 percent . MR. URUSKI: 72 percent? MR.

DOWNEY: 72 percent; buildings and improvements approximately 8 percent; permanent im provem ents are less than 1 percen t; debt consolidation of 16 percent; purchase of livestock 3 percent; purchase of equipment less than 1 percent; other purposes approximately 1 percent. MR. URUSKI: Of those loans, how much money is involved in that total amount? MR. DOWNEY: Appr oxi mately 24 million, Mr . Chairman. MR. URUSKI: That's the total amount of money that has been provided in those loans. Are there any other loans that the Corporation makes that are not included in this 24 million figure? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I think if I were to give the figures from the period of ... Yes, okay, that's fine. What was the question? MR. URUSKI: I asked, Mr. Chairman, whether the Minister can tell me whether there were any other types of loans that were made by the Corporation that are not included in this 24 million figure or other moneys that are involved. 3604

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, I don't believe so. We're checking it out but I don't believe there are. Oh, he says there could be some, Mr. Chairman, I'm checking. MR. URUSKI: While the in formation is being sought as to what other loans, Mr. Chairman, does the Corporation guarantee any farm loans to the banking institutions? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there is a program. I don't know whether there are any participants in that program, but I'll find out. MR.

URUSKI: Could the Min ister indicate - there is a program - could the Min ister give us the description of the program and what does that involve? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it's a specific comprehensive guaranteed loan program. Loans may be guaranteed up to a maxium of 200,000, and they may be for all conventional farming purposes. MR. URUSKI: Which means? MR. DOWNEY: Well, a conventional farming . MR. URUSKI: I'm a farmer; I want to get a loan under this program. What will it cover? Will it cover equipment purchases; will it cover . . . ? MR. DOWNEY: I'll make it very plain, Mr. Chairman, for the member.

I think that all normal, recognized type farming operations. I would exclude worm farming from that particular type of loan; I do not believe that worm farming is considered as a conventional type operation. I think conventional would the produc tion of crop s that are recommended by the field crop recommendations within the department, crops that can be covered through crop insurance coverage, normal livestock production units and that type of thing. I indicated the other night that consideration would be given to taking hogs for collateral on loans.

To this particular time the hogs have not been accepted as collateral because of the concern tha t the Corporation have had over the control or the marketing of hogs. They felt it was important that there was a mechanism put in place with the Produc ers Ma rketing Board , tha t they worked closely, as far as the repayment was concerned, on people that were borr owing mo ney for the production of hogs. And I agree, I think there should be reconsideration given to that particular policy.

So to get back to the basic question, conventional farming is something that is an accepted practice within the province, whether it be turkeys, poultry MR. URUSKI: Including operating expenses, including operating loans. MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman .. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, can I get back, leave this Comprehensive Gua ranteed Farm Loans for the moment and ask the Minister about the other loans that the Corporation may be involved in, that he was going to get me the information, and how much money is involved in other loans and how would they be -(I nterjection)- Oh, they're working on it.

Could the Mini ster indicate when did this program, the Compr ehensive Guaran teed Farm Loans Program come into being. MR. DOWNEY: In July of 19 78, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: In July of 19 78? MR. DOWNEY: That's right, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, was there any announc ement with respect to this program? Has the Min ister got any correspondence ... ? I don't recall reading anything about this comprehensive loan. Can the Min ister give us some of the data on the announc ement of it? Because I don't recall reading about it, going back to 1978, Mr. Chairman, or even 19 79.

I have the Ma rch 31 st 19 79 report and although it does make . . . Part Three of the Regulations, Mr. Chairman, ind icates under the Agricultural Credit Corporation Act it allows for fully gu aranteed loans to farm corporations or co­ operatives. During the past year, the Corporation's activity in this area consisted of the renewal of two performance bond guarantees to co-operatives in the amount of 190,5 00.00.

The Corporation's 10 percent cumulative contingent liability to lending institutions for loans made by them under Part Four of the regulations under the Agricultural Credit Corporation decreased from 11 1, 000 Ma rch 31, 19 78 to 54,000.00. There were two new guarante es given during the year. And that is the commentary that I have read with respect to guaranteed loans, Mr. Chairman, and that is the Annual Report of the Ma nitoba Agricultural Credit Corpo ration dated March 31, 19 79.

The Min ister tells me that a Compr ehensive Gu aranteed Farm Loans Program was brought into being in July of 1978, yet I fail to have read any mention of that program in the annual report. In fact the Min ister didn't mention the loans program that he spoke about when he made a statement to the Legislature, a statement where he intr oduced the Annual Report of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation earlier on in this session, yet he failed to make any mention of this program. Is this program something to be ashamed of, Mr. Chairman, that the Mini ster is somehow hiding?

Are farmers aware of it and how have they been made aware of it, that there are guarantees? I'd like to know, Mr. Chairman, because surely even the Member for Emerson, who smiles at me and says, well look, I'd probably like to know about this loan guarantee as well, but nowhere has it been published, Mr. Chairman. Is it just for a select few farmers who may have some close ties with the Min ister of Agriculture, or who is it involving, Mr. Chairman? Well, Mr. Chairman, please, if the Minister would want to table some annou ncements that were made with respect to this, I'd be willing to hear from him. MR.

DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the member refers to the Comprehensive Loan Gu arantee, I believe it is in the Man itoba Agriculture brochur es that are available throughout all the agricultural communi ty. I 3605

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 apologize to the member if it's not been released in any press release that went out at this time, but I believe it did and I stand to be corrected if it didn't, but it is in fact in the public arena. The member is now passing over to him an outline of the program. That pamphlet, Mr. Chairman, has been available for about a year and a half I guess, throughout the agricultural community and in Ag. rep. offices, in the Min ister's office and in MACC offices, so it has been widely commun icated that they are available.

I would have to say, and I don't mind admitting it to the committee, that there haven't been a lot of people that have made use of the Compr ehensive Loan Guarantees, that the banks have, in most cases, been servi cing tha t particular gr oup of farmers who may have qualified. So I make no apologies. It's a program that's introduced and if there wasn't a need for it, the banks were filling that need in that particular area, then we use the funds for the direct lending which will help other farmers. So I make those comments.

It's a matter of a program being introduced, there are very few people and that's basically it, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the brochure that the Minis ter has given me indicates that there are Gu aranteed Loans and there are specific Comp rehensive Guaranteed Loans. MR. DOWNEY: That's right; that's the one. MR. URUSKI: Okay.

Can the Minister indicate to me what is the difference and how does each program operate, the Guara nteed Loans Program and how does the specific Compr ehen sive Guaran teed Loans Program operate, one versus the other or does it compliment each other or what is the nature of each program? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there is a difference. The Gu aranteed Loans Pr ogram gua rantee something like . . . Okay, I was indicating earlier the specific Compr ehensiv e Program, in which I explained some of the points to the member.

I believe it was for conventional farming purp oses where he let me get to, and then we had to explain conventional farming practice to the Member for St.

George, some basic elemen tary agricultural information, then to proceed on to some of the other points - I'll go through it: Repayment period of up to 30 years; interest rate not to exceed prime rate plus 1 percent for loans repayable for 10 years or less; and interest rate not to exceed prime rate plus 1-1/ 2 percent for loans repayable over 10 years and up to 30 years; applications for this type of loan are made to the Ma ni toba Agricultural Credi t Corporation.

The Corporation liability is 100 percent of the losses which may be incu rred after the bank or approved lending institute has realized on all of the securities taken in accordance with the Manitoba Agricultural Corporation direction. All securities are held by the bank, or approved lending institution, and credit unions qualify under the program as well as the conventional banks. That a rebate of 4 percent - and this is fairly important - a rebate on 4 percent on the first 50,000 for the first five years of a long-term loan for young farmers between 18 years of age and 39.

That's the basic specific comprehensive gu aranteed loan. Mr. Chairman, the gu aranteed loan is: the maximum available is 60,000 including existing farm impr ovement loans, which is a federal program. The purposes may include operating capital, purchase of equipment and purchase of livestock. Interest rate may not exceed prime plus 1 percent. Repayment not to exceed 10 years.

Corportion liability is limited to losses of up to 10 percent of the aggregate advances for a fixed three-year period of each bank or approved lending institution after the bank, or approved lending ins titution has realized on all securities taken. Applic ation for this type of guarantee is made to the bank or approved lending institution of the borrower's choice. All securities are held by the bank or approved lending institution. That, Mr. Chairman, is the other Guaran teed Loan Program. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, in the Gu aranteed Loans Program, the maximum amount tha t is guaranteed is 60,000, I believe. Am I correct? And the difference between the two programs is that the Guar anteed Loans Program, while it guar antees 60,000, the specific comprehensive guarantee is up to 200,000, that's the basic, and the repayment period from, rather than 10 years, goes on to 30 years. Basically the rates are the same for both programs with one exception, with the guarantee. In the Guara nteed Loans Program, MACC is left to guarantee 10 percent in the first three years of any losses over and above security.

Is tha t my understan ding? And on the second program, the Corporation is on the hook for 100 percent, did the Minister say? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, on the comprehensive loan guarantee, providing that the Corporation liability is 100 percent of the losses which may be incu rred after the bank, or approved lending institution, has realized on all the securities taken in accordance with the credit corporation direction. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, does that mean that if I take a loan out, of this nature, that I come first to MACC for approval of the loan? So that MACC does the approving of the loans?

And then I go to any banking institution, or can any banking institution then turn me down if MACC passes my application? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would think that the bank or the lending institutes still would have the right to refuse you to take out a loan, but with 100 percent guarantee, I would think it would be difficult for them to do it. Now I can't legislate whether a bank will do business with you or whether they won't do business with you, Mr. Chairman, that's their business. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister tell me how many guaranteed loans are in process or have been applied for under the regular program of 60,000.00? How many have they guaranteed? 3606

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 MR. DOWNEY: Ten, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Ten loans? MR. DOWNEY: In the last year, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: In the last year. Mr. Chairman, are the guaranteed loans able to have the interest rate reduction rebate on their loans? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman. Not on the one we're just talking about. On the Comprehensive Loan Guarantee, there is. MR. URUSKI: Could the Min ister indicate why the Guaranteed Loan Program would not be available for the same interest rate reduction as the specific Comprehensive Gua ranteed Loans? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I guess the initial program that we're talking about, was in fact in place when we came into government, and it was not looked at as a program to look at the long-time farm land pu rch ase needs of the particula r farming community that we were zeroing in on. It wasn't introduc ed to tha t particular progr am. It was introduced on the direct loans that were introduced by the gove rnment, plus the Comp rehensive Gua ranteed Loans. The reason for it not being in there I guess, Mr.

Ch airman, it's never been addressed or requested, but it is a 10 -year loan program that is for operating rather than for land purchases. The intent was to assist farmers to buy land and not to be buying farm machinery or the other type of equipment that is needed in the farm commun ity. So basically, the rebate was for those individuals who were requiring or desirous of buying farm land. MR. URUSKI: Now we have the clear statement from the Mini ster that only the loans that are made for purchasing of land have been given the interest rebate and the incentive to purchase land, Mr. Chairman. Is that correct? MR.

DOWNEY: That's correct. MR. URUSKI: Okay. How many loans have been made under the Specific Comprehensive Guaran teed Loans Program? How many are in effect now to date? MR. DOWNEY: In total, there are two in place now, Mr. Chairman, and as the member has heard, there are some in the mill at this particular time. MR. URUSKI: These two that are in place now; were any of them done early or were they done within the last year? MR. DOWNEY: They were done within the last year, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, would they have been reported in the last fiscal year in the report at all? MR.

DOWNEY: I'll check that out, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, no, they wou ldn't have been put through when this report was made available, since that period of time. MR. URUSKI: Nr. Chairman, on the Gua ranteed Loans where the government or MACC guarantees 10 percent of the loan, I believe for the first three years, am I correct? 10 percent of any losses in the first three years of the loan or is it guaranteed 10 percent throughout the entire 10 years of the Joan? Is it guaranteed to the financial institutions for the entire 10 -year period? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I indicated that the Corporation liability is limited to losses up to 10 percent of the aggregate advances for a fixed three­ year period of each bank or approved lending ins titution after the bank or app roved lending institution has realized on all securities taken. MR. URUSKI: Let me understand that. In the event that I, as a borrower, am in default of my loan, the fixed three-year period, is it after the loan repayment period is over? Is that where the three-year figure comes into being or where does the three years come into being?

The loan is for a ten-year period and, provided the loan is repaid normally, then there would be no liability. When is the three years? Is it three years after the ten-year period, up to the three years after the loan payment matures? I'm not quite sure on that. I'd like to understand it better. MR. DOWNEY: The th ree-year period is an accumulation period of the total approvals by a bank to the total aggregate amount. I'm sure that is very clear, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: No, Mr. Chairman, it's not very clear. Can the Min ister give us an example?

Is there a limit on the amount of money which the Corporation guarantees? Maybe I'm not asking the right question. MR. DOWNEY: Yes, there is. MR. URUSKI: There is a limit? What is the limit under the Guaranteed Loans Program? Where does the Corporation end its liability then, at what limits? MR. DOWNEY: 10 percent of the aggregate amount. MR. DOWNEY: But there must be a limit. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think it is already 4:30. The Chairman is leaving the Chair for Private Members' Hour. Committee rise. SU PPLY - COMMUN IT Y SERVICES AND CORREC TIONS MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order.

I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 20 of the Main Estimates, Department of Commu nity Services and Correc tions, Resolution No. 31, Clause 5, Rehabilitative Services, Item (a)

(1) Salaries-pass; (2)- pass; (3)- pass - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. 3607

Tuesday, 13 May, 1980 MR. LAURENT L. DESJARD INS: Mr. Chairman, (3) is Professional Training. It seems unb elievable that there is such a large reduction. I know that in 19 77- 78 these were combined. They were Professional Training in the mental health and then mental retardation, but if I look at both figures for last year and this year, it was a total of 275.5 in 19 79-80 and the Min ister with his colleague, the Minis ter of Health, are asking 342.8, where in 19 77-78 there was a 451.7 percent. That is quite an inc rease.

Is it a question that the government doesn't care anymore, that they all of a sudden have all the staff and psychiatric nurses and all the people to deliver these imp ortant services? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. HON. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr. Chairman, the explanation to the Ho nourable Member for St.

Boniface, the Professional Training has been divided this year and the mental health professional training was under the Min ister of Health, so that portion he would have possibly in his original Estimate Book included both the mental health profe ssional training and the mental retardation training. The cost for the professional training for Selkirk and Brandon would be in the Min ister of Health's Department.

But in our own department here at the present time, in actual fact what has been . . . out is if you look at what we show there for last year of 95,5 00 that would be what was in last year's estimates relating to the mental retardation professional training. We'd have to go back to the Health

Section to check out and you'd find that would be the difference of what he has based on it. Now this year, in regard to professional training for our department, we have 11 8,500 for Community Mental Healt h, which provides trai ning of 10 0 professional staff for 24 training days and resource material and foster home sponsors but this is directly related to community, not to the institutional.

Also in the community mental retardation we have 21 ,500 which provides training of professional staff in advance studies in mental retardation for foster homes, sponsors, community resident staff, which has some backing from Canada Manpower participation and communi ty boards and administrators, but in actual fact there is a 44,500 increase over last year for those particular training services that we provided until mental retardation and community health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Ch airman, either the Mini ster wasn't listening or he didn't understand what I said because I took that into consideration, I did exactly that, that last year for the· part of the Minister was 95.5, under the Min ister of Health it was 18 0 for a total of 275.5. This year it's 140 under this department, 202 under the Department of Health, for a total of 342.

Even if I give the benefit of the doubt to the Min ister and add 82 percent in institutional training and 93 percent, which I think we had something on that, but even if I do that it's still a reduction. 1977-78 was 451.7 and its 424.8 at this time, and last year was 31 6. That's for the grand total, so it leaves it short. That's exactly my point and I never heard that it was easier to train psychiatric nur ses in these days. Either they are cutting staff or the standards are not as high but the training is going down. MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Chairman, it could be that the honourable member is referring to the professional training that we have for the psychiatric nur ses under the Manitoba School for Retardates. Is that the

section he was adding into the cost? Because that is shown under another section,

Section (

b) under Institutional Mental Retardation Services. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I gave the Minister the benefit of the doubt; I added that also and you are still falling short. I added three items, Mr. Chairman. I added the item we are looking at now, I added professional training that comes under the Mini ster of Health in the mental health field and I added professional training at the institution that comes out next and I'm still coming quite a bit short of 1977-78. MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Chairman, we'll get the details for the honourable member but if he's trying to compare a budget from two years to this years, because of the way the department has been split, part of that training ... So I'll get the details for the honourable member but the information that I have is in actual fact under this

section there has been an increase of 44,500 this year for Professional Training from last year. MR. DESJARDINS: Again it's the same pattern and unfortuna tely the only one that we can talk to is the present Min ister, but that's the same pattern continua lly. The go vernment came in, froze everything, reduced everything, cut staff. There was all kinds of abuse and they started cra