Manitoba Hansard — 15 March 1977 (Sitting 19A, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-19a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 FOURTH SESSION- THIRTIETH LEGISLATURE of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Vol. XXIV No. 19A 26 Elizabeth I I Published under the authority of The Honourable Peter Fox Speaker 2:30 p.m., Tuesday, March 15 , 1977 Printed by P.N. Crosbie- Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

TIME: 2:30 p.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Tuesday, March 15, 1977 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 26 students, Grade 9 standing, of the Munroe Juni or High School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Minkus. This school is located in the constituency of Kildonan, my own constituency. We also have 30 students, Grade 11 standing, of the West Kildonan Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Butler.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, the Minister of Finance and Urban Affairs. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labo ur. HONOURABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, it has been the custom of this government when in session to provide members of the Assembly with information as we receive it in relation to unemployment.

I wish to make a Ministerial Statement dealing with the unemployment information of the Province of Manitoba at this stage. There are copies there for the respective parties and yourself, Sir. If I may, Mr. Speaker, referring to the statistical data that has been given to me this morning as a result of Statistics Canada, I indicate that there has been an increase in the total number of unemployed in the Province of Manitoba and the unemployment rate in the province has experienced an increase of approximately 9/1 Oths of 1 percent February over Jan uary.

I may say, Sir, that this is generally what has happened across Canada and that as far as the Province of Manitoba, its relative position has remained unchanged, that is, that it has the third lowest unemployment rate in the whole Dominion. Insofar as actual numbers are concerned of unemployed, there was an increase in that number from 31,000 in Janu ary of this year to 33,000 in February which is an increase of about 8,000 over what the position was in 19 76.

I would like, however, to point out to members of the Assembly that our labour force increased by 1 ,000- February over Januar y- to 442,000 people and this is an increase of 18 ,000 more in the labour force than the situation was a year ago. Total employment decreased by 1, 000 to 409,000 but again, Sir, I indicate to you that this is 9,000 greater than it was in February of a year ago.

I want to, on behalf of the government, indicate to members of the Assembly that we are fully cognizant of the increase in the numbers of unemployed and as the Minister responsible for Public Works and the First Minister indicated to the Assembly yesterday and a few days previous to that, we are drawing off of our reserve shelf projects that may overcome the difficulties that we are experiencing at this time in respect of unemployment. So I say, Mr.

Speaker, that while we recognize the increase in the total number of unemployed in Manitoba, we also indicate that the province had made prior undertakings to have on our shelves certain projects that may overcome the difficulty in respect of employment and unemployment. Again I say, Mr. Speaker, as indicated by the First Minister and the Minister of Public Works, activity is taking place to instill into the economy of the province of Manitoba work projects which hopefully will result in a lowering of the numbers of unemployed in the province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.

R. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, in respond ing to the statement just delivered to the House by the Minister of Labour, I would say that I certainly can speak for all members of our group and I would think for all Manitobans when I express to you, Sir, our feelings of deep concern and deep distress over the latest reports with respect to the unemployment levels in Canada and particularly with respect to Manitoba's position in that spectrum.

The question that comes most readily to mind I would suggest, Sir, is the question as to why Manitoba's position has deterior ated relatively speaking in such drastic and alarming fashion vis-a-vis the position of other western provinces in Canada. The report from Statistics Canada indicates that Manitoba and the Atlantic provinces have now the worst record in terms of the change in the unemployment picture during the past month of any provinces in Canada, which puts us into a very disturbing position in the scale.

So I say that the basic question that we would ask is what are the reasons for Manitoba's decline in the face of much better performances readily speaking by all other provinces in western Canada? Obviously this condition that is not related to western Canada as a region, is a condition that, unfortunately, at least in the context of this time frame, is indigenuous to and peculiar to Manitoba alone. 697

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 The other question or two that we would have, Mr. Speaker, would probab ly best be directed in the area of the First Minister. We would be interested in knowing whether the current situation and the latest unfortunate statistics would, in any way, persuade him to review his posture and the province's posture with respect to the controls program and with respect to the overall anti-inflation regulations existing across the country, including this province.

I would suspect that there would be some initiatives of a wide-ranging nature being examined by the Minister of Public Works in concert with the Minister of Labour and other colleagues of theirs in the government, as to what kind of undertakings might be launched to improve the employment situation but I think that the First Minister would also consider it incumbent upon him to reassess the province's entire position with respect to the controls program now that the unpleasantness of Manitoba's employment picture has been so glaringly disclosed.

Finally, Sir, could I say that I think the Department of Continuing Education and Manpower has a serious mutual responsibility in this field. Ifs unfortunate the Minister is out of the country on government business at this time because I would suggest that one of his top priorities in this context is to be working with the Minister of Labour to develop programs to combat this problem. The fact of the matter, Sir, is that it's no longer partisan or political, if it ever was, for anyone to argue that Manitoba is falling behind economically in the national context.

The climate for business growth and expansion, and job creation and job opportunity here has been too long stifled. That once may have been dismissed as a political or partisan statement but, Sir, I think the Minister's statement and the report from Statistics Canada now indicates quite clearly that it is a fact that this province is falling behind economically and the only thing that is going to correct it in a realistic fashion is not make work projects, but is a change in direction and philosophy of this government with respect to the need for economic growth instead of an expansion. MR. SPEAKER: Order.

Any other ministerial statements. The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HONOURABLE RENE TOUPIN (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Report for Consumer Corporate and Internal for the year 19 76. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introd uction of Bills. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HONOURABLE HOWARD PAWLEY(Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I would like to provide written responses to questions posed by the Leader of the Opposition Thursday, March 10 , 19 77 in the House. I guess one for each House Leader.

RE: GRI FFIN STEEL - RESPONSE S TO QUE STIONS BY THE LEADER OF THE OPPO SITION, THU RSDAY, MARCH 10th, 19 77. Que stion 1. "How many persons have been charged as a result of incidents at the Griffin Plant since February 28th?" Since February 28th, 16 persons have been charged as a result of incidents at the Griffin Plant. 10 persons were charged on March 8th, 1977; 3 persons were charged on March 9th, 19 77; and 3 persons were charged on March 10th. No charges were laid on March 1 1t h.

There was one arrest this morning, however, the matter is under review and no decision has yet been made as to whether the arrested person will be charged. 2. "Under what Sections of The Criminal Code are these charges being laid?" These charges were laid under

Section 387 (1} (

c) of The Criminal Code which provides as follows: "Every one comm its mischief who wilfully obstructs, interrupts or interferes with the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property". 3. "Are all persons removed from the Gr iffin Plant by the police being charged, that is all persons removed since the 28th of February?" Not all persons removed from the Griffin Plant by the Police have been charged . ltwas decided to proceed initially by issuing warnings to the persons involved on the first three occasions. When the same person was required to be removed by the police on a fourth occasion, charges were laid.

Commencing Monday, March 14 th, persons required to be removed will no longer be warned but charged. 4. "If all persons are not being charged on what basis are charges being laid and on whose instructions?" Charges are being laid on the instructions of Crown Counsel. 5. "Can the Minister give assurance to the House and the public of Manitoba that all charges laid will be proceeded with in the regular manner?" I Yes. 6. "If stays of proceedi ngs are being contemplated on th� charyes, will the Minister advise the House and the people of Manitoba on what basis and on Vvhose instructions such stays of 698

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 proceedings will be entered?" At the present time all charges are being proceeded with in the usual fashion, and no stays of proceed ings are cor,templated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. MR. STERLING LYON(Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, a question to the Honourable the First Minister. With respect to the polar gas pipeline and comments that the First Minister made, I presume recently, about anticipated developments in that regard, could the First Minister update the House with respect to the probability of the polar gas pipeline being routed through Manitoba?

And secondly, what is the information with respect to the appl ication before the NE B? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HONOURABLE EDWARD SCHREYER, Premier(Rossmere): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I certainly don't mind sharing my views with the honourable members of the House but, as I was careful to point out on the week-end when I was asked about this casually at a particular community, that I really was not in a position to speak in any way authoritativeiy, but merely on the basis of information which I have gleaned on the basis of meetings with some of tha senior . people of polar gas that it is simply to this effect, that sometime within the next twelve to eighteen months there will likely be an appl ication to the National Energy Board with respect to the construction of \he polar gas pipeline - the precise construction time of which is still somewhat uncertain but targeted for commencement in either 19 79 or the early, very early 19 80s- and that there is a differential, which differential has persisted accord ing to their figures and calculations over the past two or three years, of approximately $1.7 billion (less cost west of Hudson's Bay than east of Hudson's Bay) and that therefore the probability is for the western route but I wouldn't really want to presume specifically which of two or three sub alternatives of the western route will be followed .

But, as the Honourable Leader of the Opp osition probably well knows, there has been a considerable amount of field work done by people retained by polar gas; field work in the Keewatin district and in the Churchill region, and the Gillam region. That's generally the nature of tha briefing that I gave on the week-end which was admittedly of a non authoritative nature MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could direct a further question to the First Minister.

In view of his expressed interest in this field of natural gas supplied from Manitoba, I wonder if he could indicate whether the Manitoba Government has made any determ ination of whether the Mackenzie line now being dealt with by the National Energy Board and the two alternatives that are being dealt with by the National Energy Board , if the government has made any determination whether the so-called Mackenzie line or the alternative Alcan line is in the best interests of gas supplies for Manitoba. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would hes:tate to comment on someth ing that is, or will soon be seized of, by the National Energy BoarrJ; <'Ugu�t body that it is. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speake�. in that ca�e. in VIGW nf the fact that the last provincial government proposal to the NEB was 1975, is the Mc.nitoha Govern!'l'lent intend ing to examine the two proposals and advise the NEB what tha y feel is :11 the b�..·st interes� of Manitoba? MR. SCHREYER· Well, Mr. Speaker, really it would be advisable for the Honourable the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Energy Council to reply or take it as notice. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, we have filed an intervention as! believe I indicated a few days back and we are maintaining a watching brief. At the moment, from the information we have, it seems that the Arctic line as such has the best chances of proceed ing and it seems to be furthest along in terms of engineering preparation and in terms of financial servicing etc. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Industry and Commerce indicate which line he refers to as being the Arctic line?

Is that the Canad ian Arctic Gas line? MR. EVANS: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. I wonder if the Minister could indicate to the House what input has been made from or through his office in regard to the discussions that are presently going on between Canada and the United States considering a possible wheat price arrangement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HONOURABLE SAMUEL USKIW(Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Arthur should know that that is a matter between the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States and that we do not get involved in direct discussions witn the Government of the United States. MR. WATT: I am quite aware of the situation as far as Canada is concerned. I am asking the Minister if he is not enough interested in the wheat farmers of Manitoba to have an input into the discussions that are going on on the biggest single export commodity that we prod uce in the 699

Tuesday, March 15, 1�77 province of Manitoba; or if he is not interested in bringing together the three pra'rie provinces to have an input into the greatest.single exporting product there is in Canada, towards negotiations b.etween " Canada and the United States at the present time? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, if there was such a venture I would hazard a guess that there would be a split on the prairies on that particular question, Saskatchewan and Manitoba versus Alberta. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs.

Can the Minister indicate to the House if the province is contributing any funds to the $50,000 that the City of Winnipeg is paying a consultant to ' find out why there has been a decline in the urban transit passengers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HONOURABLE SAUL k MILLER(Seven Oaks): No, I don't recall that particular item, Mr. Speaker, so I can't indicate whether or not that is part of the transit operation or where that money is supposed to flow from. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary.

Can the Minister indicate if the government is putting any funds into the underground parking concourse at Portage and Main? MR. MILLER: No. MR. PATRICK: I have a supplementary and perhaps it should go to either the Minister of Urban Affairs or the Minister of Public Works. Can the Minister indicate to the House if the government is paying the parking fees for its employees? I know, since the Min ister has indicated, he wants to encourage the people to use the transit system. Is the government paying parking fees for its employees? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Public Works.

HONOURABLE RUSSELL DOERN(Eimwood): Mr. Speaker, I believe that is so in some instances. I will have to take that as notice though. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this to the Minister in charge of fire protection. What is the Minister recommending regard ing faults uncovered in the Town and Country Lodge fire investigations? A supplementary to that: What steps is the depar tment taking regard ing the recommendation, such as heat and smoke detectors; also amount of combustible material used in the structures, both urban and rural? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLt:Y: Mr. Speaker, I was not informed of course, as my l1onourable friend normally does inform of the questions di rected -(In terjections)- ! don't know what the chit-chat is going on on the other side of the House but I think it is rather juvenile. However, there were serious points raised by the Honourable Member for Virden in respect of what the department is doing in respect of fire prevention. Also, I noted that the chief provincial coroner, in reading the news media, has suggested that smoke detectors may have prevented some loss of life.

I am not going to quarrel with that honourable gentleman but we, for a long period of time, within the Fire Commissioner's Department, have had under investigation the use of fire and smoke detectors in dwellings and apartments. And we have had to, on a number of occasions, prevent exuberant sales people from selling smoke detectors, so that there has been a sort of a situation arising, Mr. Speaker, of people feeling that they are protected as a result of installing smoke detectors which in effect is not the case because they are, in some cases, not cond ucive to a perfect operati on.

I want to assure my honourable friend, however, that we in the Department of Labour and particularly the Fire Commissioner's office, have conducted over the last three or four years a program of education for our firefighters across the province. We have, effective as of the 1s t of April this year, the coming in of a fire code for the province of Manitoba which we are hopeful will resolve some of the problems referred tu in the news media and attributed to the Chief Coroner of the province of Manitoba.

We have constantly attempted to carry on an educational program but at the same time, may I say with all due respect to the Provincial Coroner, the mere installation of smoke detectors does not give the safety factor that people should have. And I'm not arguing with that honourable gentleman, I would like to discuss with him further, but I say to my honourable friend this is a matter of supreme importance to the Department of Labour and particularly the Fire Commissioner's

section of the depar tment. MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the same Minister. Would he make it mandatory to have these heat and smoke detectors into the older buildings; say thirty and forty-year old buildings that now haven't got that protection. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: The question of compulsion for older buildings of thirty or forty years, Mr . .

Speaker, in all due respect to my honourable friend, may be sort of irrelevant to the situation that I we're confronted with because it is not only buildings of thirty or forty years old that may be subject to the incidence of fire. I recal l that when I was in opposition to the present oppo sition, I carried on a 700

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 campaign to make smoke detectors and fire escapes compulsory for rooming-uouses and the likes of that, and I was thwarted at that time in my endeavours by the united action of the then Attorney General and the government of that particular day. And so I would say to my honourable friend, it isn't a question of the lite-spell of a building, as he suggests thirty years, but it possibly should be a question of compulsory legislation, and I don't discount this, of fire detectors or smoke detectors or other detectors being a requisite in all buildings. MR.

McGREGOR: The last suppleme.ntary, Mr. Speaker. But is it not true all the tragic fires of late are in those older-type buildings? · · MR. PAULLEY: No, Mr. Speaker, as a matter of .tact I want to thank my honourable colleague, the Member for Bran don, who has just supplied me with the information insofar as Central Park Lodge in Brandon, where we had a couple of deaths - it was only six or seven years old. I think this strengthens the point that I have been raising. The age of a building does not necessarily control as to whether or not the building should have smoke detectors.

Then as far as fire alarms generally is again I want to say, Mr. Speaker' concerned that in some instances the fire alarms and detectors are manually operated, which gives a sense of false protection to the tenants of a building.

And I also want to say that insofar as the Fire Commissioner's Department, that honourable members who are using the elevators in this building will note that we now have signs on all of the elevators that in the case of fire the elevators are, figuratively speaking, taboo because of the tact that automatic devices on elevators are rendered ineffective, in many cases, when there is a fire. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member tor Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the First Minister and relates to the reported meeting which he and his Minister of Health had with the St.

Boniface School Division relative to certain problems which I believe exist in the Norwood School Division. And my question, Sir, is to the First Minister. Has a meeting been called by him with the Norwood School Division and, if so, was such a meeting requested by that division? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge several days ago, there was a meeting, very much informal, last week with representatives of the St. Boniface School Division and as to the purpose, well it was exploratory.

There is another meeting being held with the neighboring school board, east of the Red River. I agreed to attend at such a meeting. lt was not called by me but that's not the important point. I felt that such a meeting would be useful and will be attending. If my honourable friend has a follow-up, I will be glad to answer it. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Did the Norwood School Division request assistance in settling what appears to be an internal dispute in their division? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend is asking as to whether they requested a meeting or requested assistance, it's my understanding that they did request an opportunity to explore a number of alternatives but my colleague, the Minister of Health, certainly can be more precise in that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Some of the members, individually, of the different school boards, St. Boniface and Norwood, have been discussing their problems with me, amongst others, and have asked for assistance in a way.

And all that the government did, and all that the First Minister and I did in the absence of the Minister of Education who was going through his estimates, is have a general discussion with the School Division of St. Boniface. We've asked certain conditions, would they be ready to assist as provided by the bill, providing of course that they were asked to do so by the Norwood School Board. lt was obvious in discussing this with different people that there hasn't been the best rapport between the school boards; in discussion individually with members, yes.

The intention then was to meet and an invitation was made - nobody was summoned - an invitation was made to the Norwood School Board to have the same kind of discussion and information with them to try to find other options, if need be, maybe with the assistance of the government. And then it was made quite clear to everyone that the school boards will decide, will iron out their prob lems. I think if the government can assist, we should do so and I certainly don't apologize for having met with these people. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR.

McGILL: Supplementary question to the Honourable the First Minister. Mr. Speaker, is this then a departure from normal government policy to intervene in an internal dispute and in the settling of a problem which is normally accomplished by the ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister state his point of order. MR. DESJARDINS: That the member is definitely not correct when he insinuates or makes an accusation that there has been intervention. That is not the case, that has never been the case and I 701

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 wish he'd take my word for it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, to reply to the question, I would say simply that there is no intervention as far as I' m concerned. I was asked to attend at an informal meeting to discuss alternatives, to discuss problems and almost never do I refuse a meeting if requested by members of a municipal or school council, as a council or even as a number of individuals. Almost never. 1 would like to say never but I' m afraid I can't say that if sometimes it isn't possible.

My honourable friend shouldn't worry about precedence because if he wants a precedent about intervention in intra divisional disputes, I would refer him to the former Minister of Education back in the days when Crystal City and Pilot Mound couldn't come to a conclusion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for ... Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, again to the Honourable First Minister.

In the resolution of the prob lems within the division and the possible assistance ofthis government, is there any involvement of additional funding or grants that would be necessitated by such a resolution? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. · MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'm not suggesting that the question isn't a valid one, but I'm sure the honourable member will appreciate that it is impossible to say in advance of a meeting what a meeting has decided, since it hasn't taken place yet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: To the Minister of Labour.

When the 60 or 70 percent of the apartment fires start within suites and the victims never wake up, does this mean the Minister is biased against smoke and heat detectors and means it will never be compulsory until he is replaced or retired? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: No, Mr. Speaker.

I would suggest to my honourable friend, who is a newcomer in the field of politics, as far as real politics are concerned, I would respectfully suggest to him that he goes back over Hansard and the performance of his colleagues when I, as a member of the opposition, attempted to make the provision of adequate smoke detectors and fire escapes a necessity for buildings in his constituency and also ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. PAULLEY: ... I also received, at that particular time, absolute objection from represen tatives of the Conservative Party in making such things as smoke detectors compulsory. MR.

WILSON: A supplementary. Now that the power is in the hands of the Min ister, will he be making it compulsory? MR. PAULLEY: I laughed at the chortles of the Leader of the Opposition because he was one of the forerunners in opposition at that particular time, to compulsion ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. PAULLEY: .. . insofar as smoke detectors are concerned and now is, in his ignorance then, as now, suggesting compulsion for the protecttion of the people of Manitoba and may I suggest, ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, Order please. MR.

PAULLEY: That's right, and we' ll be here for another eight years and they're not long. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition - sometimes I question whether in fact he is the leader because he don' t know what the hell he's talking about half of the time - that whether it's taken eight years or not to bring it about, that the interjections of my red headed friend indicate ... -(I nterjection)- Yes, I'll answer the question. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR.PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would answer the question it the stupid interjections of the Leader of the Opposition ceased.

And he was one of the guys, he was one of the guys that prevented - (I nterjection)- Yes, I'm capable and I am knowledgeable of your deficiencies, I' m knowledgeable of your lack of interest, I'm knowledgeable of how incompetent you are ... MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. Order please. Order please. I do believe we can proceed in this Assembly without becoming personal. I also do believe that although I have a lot of tolerance to a certain amount of interjection and heckling, some of it is unnecessary and the people that are doing it should know better. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: A supplementary.

Is there any possibility ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. WILSON: ... is there any possibility that the Minister of Labour might make it comp ulsory during his term of office? · MR. PAULLEY: I would suggest to my honourable friend that he avail himself of and look into the new labour code that becomes effective on April 1s t of this year. it could conceivably be that my honourable friend, the Member tor Wolseley, has been so occupied with matters that are not of immediate concern in this House, that he hasn't had an opportunity of taking a look at the new Fire Code which comes into effect on the first of April.

I recommend to my honourable friend that he gets 702

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 that document, peruses it and he will be more understandable of the objectives of the Department of Labour, the government, and the Fire Commissioner's office. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. KEN DILLEN: Mr. Speaker, I almost hesitate to ask a question .

But after having spent a whole day trying to find the names of a secret committee that's operating in northern Manitoba, I want again to ask the First Minister, in the absence of the Minister responsible for Manpower, if the First Minister could inform the House of the secret committee whose names are unavailable to members of the public and who are responsible for recommending expenditures in millions of dollars of public money ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please. If the honourable member has a question, fine, if he wishes to make a speech he'll have to find another time.

Does the Honourable Member for Thompson wish to rephrase? MR. DILLEN: Yes, could the First Minister inform the House ifthis secret committee is operating in a ma nner consistent with provincial priorities and objectives? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I was at a loss yesterday, I'm afraid I' m still at a loss in terms of attempting to reply to the reported or rumoured existence of a committee of the Government of Canada that is making decisions in respect to LIP or Winter Works grants or whatever, and that is functioning on an allegedly secretive basis.

I can only as a citizen, make enquiries, I' m not aware of this problem and I would assume, Sir, that it's not really technically acceptable under the rules oft his House to deal with a question of that kind since it is outside the admi nistrative purview of the province. MR. DILLEN: Mr. Speaker, perhaps while the ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Morris state his point of order. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON: Yes.

The point of order simply is that both the question and the answer are out of order as indicated by the First Minister since the matters that are raised by the Member for Thompson relate to a jurisdictio n over which the First Minister has no control or no authority. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I thank the Honourable Member for Morris' assistance in this particular instance and I hope he will assist me in every other instance when someone has ... Order please. I hope he'll assist me also in every other instance when a member has a wrong kind of a question. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. DILLEN: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, this question is relative to the Province of Manitoba because when a committee recommends expenditures in northern Manitoba of federal money, chances are in every single case, they will be coming to the Province of Manitoba to buy 2x4's, to buy nails, to buy paint, to buy equipment ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Any further questions? The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Honourable, the Minister of Finance and I would ask him whether in view of Manitoba's serious unemployment problem, he will be considering introduction of taxation measures that will provide incentives to investment growth and business growth so as to create new jobs? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, we did n't wait until Budget time.

On Friday, the First Minister announced a program of this Municipal Special Loan Fund of, I think it was, $10 million to start to recycle the program which was very successful in the past and I' m sure will be successful in the future to try to cope with the problem of unemployment in a selective and directed way rather than to simply lower some taxes somewhere hoping that it will end up in more jobs. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ! thank the Minister for his answer but I would ask him: Will there be general taxation relief offered to provide incentives for business growth and expansion? MR.

MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the word "incentive" can be used many ways. I just indicated a very good incentive - an amount of $10 million being made available through the municipalities to create jobs, very direct jobs; something that can be measured and not wishful thinking. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the First Minister in the absence of the Minister of Cultural Affairs. I would like to ask the First Minister if any steps are being taken to ensure that Folklorama will be continued this coming year? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the question affords me an oppor tunity to say that I am greatly enamoured of Folklorama. I believe it is one means by which the reality, the amazing reality of Manitoba life is manifested, namely, the living together in not only tolerance but harmony of so many people of different backgrounds. Therefore, I would be inconsolable if Folklorama did not continue. , 703

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 MR. GRAHAM: A supplementary question. Will the First Minister then endeavour to use his good offices to ensure that the present difficulties with Folklorama are cleared up as quickly as possibJe_? MR. SCHREYER: I would be willing to meet with all those who would be concerned as long as the Member for Birtle-Russell would give me the assurance that he would ride shot-gun so that the Member for Brandon West wouldn't accuse me of interfering. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. McGREGOR: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture inasmuch as we have passed it in his Estimates, what correspondence or conversation has the Minister had with Ottawa regarding the import of artificial cheese in whole or part that Ottawa and Washington are now negotiating and the harmful effects to the dairy ind ustry of Canada and Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it is not correct to say that the Estimates have been passed, that is the Estimates of the depar tment so that presumably there will be an opportun ity to discuss that most fully. I am not really aware of the subject matter, however. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppositi on. MR. STERLING R. LYON (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, a question to the Attorney-General arising out of the written answer that he tabled in the House today. Could the Attorney-General assure the House that all persons who were fourth-time offenders between February 28th and March 14 th were, in fact, charged? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge, all fourth-time persons were charged. Now if there is an exception to that, I am not aware of it but to my personal knowledge, all fourth-time individuals have been charged. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, can the Attorney-General tell the House the rationalization by which the determination was made that only persons arrested tour times would be charged? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, it has been our desire, particularly in view of the circumstances of the dispute which was basically a labour-management dispute and was basically one that was kept peaceful, that every opportun ity be given within the discretion and within the discretion which is allowed to the Attorney-General to give every possible opportunity to those that were arrested to avoid future incidents which would bring about charges. Unfortunately, a few continued to do so and on that basis, the discretion was w exercised. MR. LYON: Could the Attorney-General then advise the House, Mr.

Speaker, on what basis or on what rationale it was decided as of March 14 th to charge all first offenders at that site? MR. PAWLEY: By March 14 th I think it was very very clear, Mr.

Speaker, that every possible opportunity had been give given in order to ensure that there be no misunderst anding as to the law pertaining to obstruction and every possible oppor tunity was undertaken in order to provide information, to remove any misunderstanding as to what would happen, already two weeks into the situation and certainly at that point, within the.discretion allowed for, it was felt that there would be no justification for continuing to give second or third warnings. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion. Final supplementary. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to charges now being laid on a first arrest basis, can the Attorney-General advise why one arrest made, I presume it was yesterday because the statement was dated March 14 th, is under review? MR. PAWLEY: ! couldn't because that is a matter that is being dealt with by Crown Counsel. I am sure that the particular matter referred to in the statement is being dealt with insofar as the technical aspects as to whether or not an offence actually exists or not by which a charge can be laid.

So I can only say to the Leader of the Oppos ition, I assume that the considerations that have been given in that particular case are, I can assure the honourable member, are purely of a technical nature !hat would concern the professional expertise of Crown Attorney. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Minister of Labour. He reminded me that I had something else cm my mind -t he Industrial Inquiry Commission. Would the Minister now tell the House what his friend, an NDP candidate, is receiving for manning this commission? MR. PAULLEY: I am glad , Mr.

Speaker, that my honourable friend indicates that sometimes I do have an oppor tunity of penetrating his mind. it's his admission that sometimes it's rather difficult so to do but by his admission just a moment ago, it becomes evident to members of the Assembly that even his mind can be penetrated. However, my direct answer to him: I have not received any bill from the Inquiry Commission dealing Nith the protest of October 14 th. MR. WILSON: A supplementar·;, Mr. Speaker. Would it be government policy to always hire people without knowing what the cost is going to be to the taxpayer? MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if that is worthy of an answer to my honourable friend, I am sure that 704

___________ Tuesday, March 15, 1977 the ratepayers and voters in Manitoba would question as to whether or not my honourable friend was worthy of his hire. ORDERS OF THE DAY - BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Labo ur. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, before the Orders ofthe Day that I might indicate to the (I nterjection)- I beg your pardon? You know, I sometimes wonder, Mr. Speaker, whether the juveniles on that side of the House are really competent to be in the House, particularly the red headed so-called Leader of the Opposition but anyway . . . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Morris has a point of order. MR. JORGENSON: Mr Speaker, pursuant to your suggestion that I assist you with the rules of this House, I now draw to your attention that the Honourable Minister of Labour is completely and totally out of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Would the Honourable Member for Morris also suggest that some of his members on that side were out of order as well? When we get a fair deal in this House, then we'll take note of all the discrepancy that takes place.

In the meantime, I am trying to adjudicate and give every one an opportunity for a rebuttal to that which takes place. Until we behave like parliamentarians, we're goirg to have this problem. I would ask for the co-operation of all the members of the House to act like parliamentarians in this Assembly. The Minister of Labour as House Leader. MR. PAULLE::Y: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I trust that your message has got home. What is the point of aider of my honourabie friend, the Leader of the Opposition? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order pleo.se. The Honourable House Leader. MR.

PAULLEY: But my honourable triend does not give me ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable House Leader proceed . MR. PAULLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it wasn't a question of any motion that I was going to propose but I intended to give some guidance to the House as the Deputy House Leader as to what I thought would be the proper conduct of the hearings dealing with the Estimates before I was interjected by that

article and others. However, Mr. Speaker, I would like to suggest that it appears as though the Estimates of the Department of Education may be nearing an end and that -(I nterjection)- you see, Mr. Speaker, I can't even suggest procedu res in the House without interjection from those parliamentarians, so called, from the other side of the House. But apart from that, Mr.

Speaker, I was going to suggest that when the Estimates of the Department of Education are completed, the Estimates of the Department of Health will follow in the Assembly and then on the outside of the House, that when the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture are completed, then the Estimates of the Department of Renewable Resources will follow, and then in the House, following consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Health, the Estimates of the Department of Labour will be considered in the Assembly. I give that information, Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of honourable colleagues. And now, Mr.

Speaker, having done that may I respectfully suggest to you, Sir, that the adjourned debates on second reading be proceeded with in accordance with the order paper. ADJOURNED DEBATES - SECOND READING Thank you. Bill SPEAKER : No.2 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Stand, Mr. Speaker. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 4 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Public Works. (Stand) Bill No. 12 proposed by the honourable ... no, it hasn't been proposed . The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. (Stand ). Bill No.15 .

The Honourable Member for Wolseley. (Stand) That That cleans the Order Paper of bills. The Honourable Deputy House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Again, Mr. Speaker, indicating to honourable members the Committee on Agriculture will meet in Room 254.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. ' COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES- EDUCATION 705

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan): I refer the Honourable Members to Page 20, Resolution 48(a) , Ministers Compensation - Salary and Rep_resentation Allowance - Pass? The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, there were one or two questions which the Minister took as notice in the previous sessions and I presume that during the course of the balance of the afternoon, he may have an opportunity to respond . I want to draw his attention now, Mr.

Chairman, to some figures relating to the school enrolment and some figures relating to the employment in the Department of Education. I have figures here indicating the total enrolment in Manitoba schools from 19 66 until 19 75 and the Minister is quite familiar with them . He knows that they reached a peak of 247,500-0dd in 19 71 and since that date to the end of 19 75 for which I have figures, there was a decline each year in the enrolment. There's been a total of about 7 % percent decline in total enrolment since 19 71. I don't have the figure for 19 76.

I presume the Minister does have that figure, and if he has I would like to add it to this list. So, Mr. Chairman, we're faced with, at least for the past five years, a gradual reduction in the enrolment of pupils in our educational system in Manitoba. What then has happened to the number of people whose responsibility and work it is to provide the overall support through the Department of Education, to these declining enrolments? Well, Mr. Chairman, it is very interesting I think to look at the number of people emp loyed by the Department of Education as contained in the supplement to Public Accounts.

Beginning in 19 72 we had 12 9 in the department. There was an increase in 19 73 to 143. In 1974 it got to 179, but then things began to grow a little bit wildly and by 19 76 a total of 322 employees. Well, Mr. Chairman, what are all these people doing? We have a declining enrolment, a function of the Department of Education which it appears is being somewhat reduced. We have some branches that have been phased out. We have some intent to decentralize and to provide more and more authority in the school divisions.

How is it that we should have 14 5 percent increase in the staffing of the Department of Education while the total enrolment in the schools is actually decl ining? Now surely, Mr. Chairman , there must be some explanation for this. Is the department assuming a greater role in the educational system? Is it managing to maintain the same role or is its role actually declining? And how is it justified that we should have a more than doubling of the number of emp loyees in that department in the past three years? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. HONOURABLE IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): Mr.

Chairman, I must express some amusement at, I guess what are normally opposition tactics no matter what political party they are, it's either, "You've got too many staff and aren't doing enough" or "You haven't got enough staff and you should do more." No matter which way you move there will be a criticism of what the government does, and that is fair enough, that's their job to pick holes in everything no matter what any government tries to do. I assume the figures given by the Member for Brand on West include the departmental personnel employed in Frontier School Division.

The Frontier School Division personnel, of course, provide services to a far-flung school division. I believe, in geographical extent, it is the largest. I believe that in problems that have to be coped with in that division they are likely the greatest in magnitude. The divisional staff of Frontier do have simple logistics problems, how to get from Berens River to Norway House. I mean that isn't a matter of a simple activity, that is difficult to do.

In add ition, the member will recall from the figures I read out to him last night, that there are 40 teachers' aides emp loyed in the Frontier School Division, and these people are part of the departmental th rust to employ individuals who were born and brought up and to a large extent, educated in the northern parts of our province. I believe the total figure given for that staff in Frontier was quite high, and he hasn't said that the figures exclude that or not, so I am assuming that they include them.

The other major growth area, I believe, is in the services provided by Child Development and Support Services. I can tell him that when I became the Minister responsible for this department, I had on my desk something like 250 letters from people all over the province and outside of the province, letters that were written to ask various questions about the provision of Child Development Support Services and related services. The Child Development and Support Services staff are helping to provide support to teachers in divisions.

The particular area of their responsibility as has been discussed during the details of my Estimates were with regard to children with special needs. lt is a needed service. lt is a service that I expect will expand in the future and I hope that the Mem ber for Brandon West would not want to make a political issue out of the Department of Education hiring staff with special skills to provide programs to children with special needs, children who in the past have been denied even access to a school, never mind access to staff trained and programs developed to cope with their par ticular problems.

So that's one major area of growth in the departmental staff. The other point that I should make in general - we have gone through all the detail of the departmental staff- is that the staff man years of the department in 19 75-76 were 426, rounded out. 706

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 In 19 76-77 the vote dropped to 41 4. In 19 77-78we're predicting about 403. So there is likely going to be a decline in the staff of the Department of Education. I don't know, Mr. Chairman, where the figures that the Member for Brandon West used came from. He did not spell out very clearly just precisely what figures these were, whose they were, who they related to, but I have g.iven him the answer. The main growth has been in Child Development and Support Services as I recall, and that's a much needed service which I whole-heartedly endorse and support. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister didn' t hear my explanation as a premise to the figures which I gave him, this count was taken from the supplement to Public Accounts for the years which were noted' and if the supplement to Public Accounts includes those employees of the Frontier Division then surely they were included in that total count. And that supplement to Public Accounts contains the names of all those members of the department whose reimbursement is above a certain figure anyway. So I presume that all or nearly all of his employees would be contained on that list.

Now, I was not aware that there had been any great enlargement of the Child Support Services Branch. There are a number of increased employees in divisions providing those special services. That has taken place over a period of years, but I am referring the Minister particularly to the great growth which has occurred according to the statistics we have, and I don't think they can be questioned because they are a count of actual names of people in his department.

This has occu rred since the election in 19 73 and there does not appear to be evidence in the reports of the department of new directions, but simply an increase of staffing of those support areas which were already in place. In spite of the somewhat emotional statements of the Minister relating to the Branch of Child Support Services, it is still very difficult to understand why, with a total enrolment that is declining in the province, it should be necessary for him to increase or double his staff in the Department of Education in the short course of three years. Mr.

Chairman, I think that certainly deserves some wider review and a more detai led explanation by the Minister. On a topic somewhat unrelated, Mr. Chairman, and I refer the Minister to reports that were carried in the press about March 9th, on a meeting held of concerned parents at Anoia. I think there were reported to be about 17 5 people attending.

They were complaining about school conditions at Anoia, and I would like the Minister to tell us what he understands about the difficulty that is recurring, I think, at Anoia because I think there had been some problems before between members of the staff at that school. We understand that it is in the nature of an experimental school conducted by the Department of Education where differential staffing appears to be one of the principal features of the experiment at this school.

Now the parents who turned out in those numbers are evidently disturbed by the activities or by the program that is being delivered in that school, and it would be appropr iate I think for the meeting to hear from the Minister what he considers to be the principal problem at Anoia. What is this school intended to do that is different from other schools? Is he, in fact, conducting an expe riment with the students that are attending that school? And what does he consider to be the action that should now be taken in order to eliminate the problems that the parents of the children feel do exist? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, this line of questioning is most interesting in light of the inferences made by the Mem ber for Brand on West earlier, that any move by departmental officials or officials of the government indeed, was to be deemed interference in the affairs of a division. Now the Member for Brandon West has made a complete abo ut-face and is asking whether the department is going to interfere in this area or not. Mr. Chairman, I will not comment on this matter because it's my understanding ... MR. CHAIRMAN: We've got a point of order. The honourable member state his point of order MR.

McGILL: The Minister is saying that I am suggesting that there be interference I'm suggesting to the Minister that this is a special school in which the Department of Education has had a major role and I would ask him simply if he has monitored the problems which the parents are indicating do exist. I have not asked him to interfere in the school but to tell us why it is that an experimental school, in which the Department of Education is taking a major role, should now be under critical comment by the parents of the students going there. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I was in the process of saying that I will not comment on this matter because I have a letter on my desk indicating that legal action will be arising as a result of the broadcast of that particular program on CKY TV. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(a) , the Honourable Leader of the Op position. MR. lYON: Mr.

Chairman, I have just a few comments and some enquiries of the Minister before we leave this department, because it is- not only in my estimation, Sir, but in the estimation I think of most people in Manitoba - perhaps one of the most important administrative departments of government that we have responsibility for. I know I need not read any lesson to the Minister on this topic. The future education of succeeding generations of children in this province is perhaps the greatest responsibility that does repose of any provincial government. 707

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 I'm sure that he shares with us the concern that is evidenced on all hands today in Manitoba about the state of education in our province. I don't suppose you can go into any business gathering or any social gathering or any community gathering of any sort at all without hearing some comment about the educational process, whether in the community, in the school division or in the province itself.

There is a feeling of crisis among parents, among students, among teachers, among the administrative personnel in our school divisions and indeed within the Department of Education, in the experts who people that department in somewhat considerab ly large numbers than was ever the case before in history.

So there is this crisis in performance and in public confidence in education today that I think we all must add ress ourselves to and to determ ine, if possible, the dir ections in which this government is trying to give leadership in order to lead the province's people in a way that will settle this feeling of crisis that they presently have. The public school system has been, since this province was founded, one of the cornerstones of administrative responsibility of each succeeding provincial government.

I can't say from personal knowledge but only from a reading of Manitoba history and from some knowledge over twenty-odd years in public life and out of public life, as a person who has children himself in the school system, certainly I can't recall in my own period of time on the face ofthis earth, the feeling of unrest that there is presently in our educational system and about our educational system in Manitoba today.

There is great concern, as the Minister I' m sure well knows, about curriculum, about the direction in which experimentation has been going, a good deal of it fostered by people who have been brought into the Department of Education either on a contract basis or people who have been brought in to conduct certain experiments from other jurisdictions, very often I'm told by my friends in the teaching profession, experiments that were proved to be failures, particularly in U.S. jurisdictions and some others.

But Manitoba became, it seemed, over the past number of years, a sort of happy hunting ground for these people to come and to experiment with their particular ideas on our children.

I would like to know from the Minister and if he has already given some indication of this to the Member for Brand on West at a time when I was not present, what he has been doing to curb this kind of inflow of outside personnel into the Department of Education whether on a contract basis or whatever, what he has been doing to curb these rashes of experimentation that school superintendents, school principals, school teachers, I'm sure have talked to him about as they have talked to me and most other members of this House, about these experimental programs that arise out of weekend meetings and so on and so forth- we ll, let's try this, let's try that, without realizing that the end product of all of this experimentation, the end product are the children of Manitoba.

Now the children of Manitoba, I'm sure the Minister will agree, are not guinea pigs and were not meant to be guinea pigs. We want contemporary, progressive, modern education for our children in this province the same as in all other provinces in Canada but we don't want some of the mindless experimentation that's been going on in a helter-skelter fashion over the last number of years in particular. The state of the Department of Education itself is something that brings no joy to the hearts of any person in public life in Manitoba.

I'm sure I'm not telling the Minister anything he doesn't know but the state of morale within his present department is perhaps as low as it's ever been in the memory of most people who are familiar with that department. For a number of years before he was attached to the department as Minister, I don't expect that he should accept responsibility for day-to-day direction for the department that went on before he was Minister, but he is the inheritor at least for a few months of trying to bring some order out of the chaos that developed in that particular department.

I would like to hear from him just how well he feels he's succeed ing in this task oftrying to right a situation of leader less drift that occurred for a good number of years within the Department of Education, which saw a number of the senior personnel of that department leave, take early retirement for the very obvious reason that they couldn't stand the lack of direction that was going on within the department.

In that connection, I would hope that the Minister would be frank with the House and tell us about the present position of the present Deputy Minister of Education whom he, of course, inherited from the previous Minister and what the relationship is between the Minister and his Deputy Minister today and what this new era of silence from the Deputy Minister, how that should be reaq particularly by the educationists of Manitoba and whether or not some of the rather novel and shall we say esoteric ideas that the Deputy Minister was responsible for are still being allowed to ricochet around the educational process in the Province of Manitoba without too much regard for the interest of the young people of this province.

So we are concerned - I'm speaking as much I suggest, Mr. Chairman, as a parent - we're concerned about what we see happening within the educational system in Manitoba today in terms of the lack of direction from the Department which in previous years, of course, had been known nationally as being one of the strong Departments of Education right across Canada. I think that in fairness we can say that probably the state that we are concerned about today did n't really begin to 708

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 manifest itself until about 19 72-1 973. 1 am not trying to delve into personalities of previous ministers and so on - even though there is a previous distinguished minister of that department sitting in the House, one of three members on the government's side at the present time - not trying to delve into that question at all but what is happening with respect to the direction that that department should be giving to the educationists of Manitoba and for the better learning procedu res for the students of Manitoba. What is happening, Mr. Chairman, with respect to curriculum in Manitoba?

We have heard soothing speeches by the Minister, par ticularly outside of the House about a re-emphasis now on core curriculum. What does he mean by this? Is his judgement and is his feeling toward core curriculum in Manitoba the same as that that is being sought by most of the parents and most of the educationists in Manitoba? He comes from an education background himself and I would like to hear him expound a bit on what he feels a core curriculum should involve in the latter half of the Seventies and as we go into the decade of the Eighties.

What does he feel, for instance, about a re-emphasis on the basics which have to do with such fancy words as numeracy and literacy and what I bunch under the heading of communication and the ability to compute and so on and so forth? What does he feel as an example, about adding French language as a language of instruction to a core curriculum in Manitoba having regard to the fact that some thirty-odd years ago, French, Latin, German were all regarded as prerequisite subjects for those persons who were taking University entrance courses? it's not such a new or a novel idea for Manitoba.

What does he feel about it having regard to the situation in the province that we have today, the fact that it is optional for high school students as to whether or not they will carry on in French at a time when the provincial government in turn is receiving greater and greater amounts from the federal government to encourage what? To encourage French language instruction in Manitoba.

Do we not have some obligation having regard not only to the provincial but to the national situation in this country to pay some renewed attention to French language instruction in Manitoba and perhaps to improving the techniques of French language instruction in Manitoba so that we can begin at least to turn out students who have a certain amount of ability in spoken French, in conversational French, in our province. What can he tell us, Mr.

Chairman, about the meagre steps that he has taken, albeit we gave him congratulation for the new grants that were announced by him a few days ago with respect to the Foundation Program , with respect to the pupil-teacher ratio in the primary schools and so on?

Does he really feel that this is going to have the kind of impact, is it going to be translated into reductions, never mind slowing down of increases, but is it going to be translated into reductions of mill rates in divisions where al ready the municipal taxpayer on his land, be it farmland, home property, commercial property or whatever, is paying on average a much higher price to support the cost of education in this province than in any province west of the Queb ec boundary. How does he translate this new grant structure into some direct relief for the overburdened taxpayers in that regard?

I know it's probably a matter that has been brought to his attention but I bring it, unhesitatingly, to his attention again.

You can't say to the farming community in Manitoba and the farm business being the big business in this province still and it will remain the biggest business for a good number of years, as far as we can see probably into the future, you can't say to the farming community today facing the kind of cost price squeeze that they're in, facing the kind of potential disaster that we do from drought, facing all of the other economic infringements on their income that to pay 4, 5, 6, 7, or in some cases $8.00 per acre in terms of municipal taxes better than 50 percent of which is made up of school division levies, that that is acceptable when that same farmer can look at jurisdictions such as Saskatchewan or Man itoba - and the figures are available - and find with some degree of disgruntlement that people in the same occupation, relatively the same kind of land in provinces such as Saskatchewan and Alberta are paying considerably less.

I believe it was the Honourable Member for Assiniboia who made that kind of comparison vis-a-vis persons living in cities like Edmonton, Calgary, Regina as opposed to the City of Winnipeg. So how is this grant system going to translate into direct relief? I'm not talking about the tax rebate system because the tax rebate system is something that is common to many provinces in Canada. What I am ta lking about is direct reduction in mill rate impositions or impacts on real property in Manitoba.

That is the core of the problem that faces school financing in this pr ovince today and no amount of tinkering around with the tax rebate system brings that kind of direct relief that can be brought if the Foundation Program is properly funded out of provincial sources in order to ensure that the municipal taxpayer, year by year, is not bearing an ever-increasing load. And that is particularly the case with respect to the farming community in Manitoba; it's particularly the case as well with respect to urban home owners, people on fixed incomes, all strata of society.

We must, I think, admit that the tax rebate program with all of the benefits that it has does not apply as equitably to reduction of mill rate assessments on propert ies as would a direct tax reduction which would go right across-the-board and help all people in the community. 709

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 Well, Mr. Chairman, there are many many other topics , most of which the Honourable Member for Bran don West has gone into and gone into, I think, with a great deal of detail and with a great deal of concern and interest and, in most cases, I think the response by the Minister has been motivated by the same kind of interest.

I do hope that he will keep in mind the concern, I don' t want to exaggerate and use the adjective "desper ate" - I don't think it's reached a desperate proportion - but the very very deep concern of parents, school children, teachers and superintendents, principals, assistant principals, everybody involved in the educational system across Manitoba, and to say to him that a good number of these people in Manitoba are looking to this Department of Education for direction, for leadership, and they're not getting it.

They're going to continue to look to this department for the kind of leadership that they've had in the past. We've got to put an end to the kind of chaotic structural setup that you, sir, inherited when you came into this department only a few months ago and 1 wish you well in the months that are left to you to try to bring some order out ofthat chaos. But that must be stopped and it must be stopped immediately. There must be clear lines of communication from the school divisions through into the department and from the Minister down through his department.

In other words, it's got to be put back on an orderly administrative basis and whether or not my honourable friend would wish to admit this in an arena such as the Legislature, I'm sur e that in his quiet moments outside of this House, he would be quite prepared to admit that there is administrative chaos within that department which requires a major kind of rationalization if we are to get back to providing the kind of leadership that is necessary from the Department of Education through the school divisions in the pro vince of Manitoba. lt is not my purpose in making these few comments on this debate to review the history of educational development in Manitoba.

Some of us on this side of the House participated in the programs that were enunciated in the late Fifties and then later in the Sixties for the larger school divisions. By and large, I think those programs were good; in retrospect I think we can all see some mistakes were made in terms of the sizes of the divisions; in terms of some ofthe plants that were built and so on and so forth. I think that we have to be honest enough and frank enough to admit, particularly with the light and the wisdom of hindsight, that if we were doing something in that regard today, we would not necessarily do it in the same way.

I would hope that the Minister would keep an equally open mind with respect to the funding of education in Manitoba, particularly on the question of curriculum and the question of education leadership, not to accept, I know as politicians are wont to do, that everything I' ve got here is perfect and I can't change it because if I go to make any change why, of course, my colleagues are going to say that we were wrong before. I would suggest to the Ministerthat he go ahead and make some changes because his department cries for changes.

I suggest that, without getting into personalities, that he seriously consider making some personnel changes and I suggest, as well, Mr. Chairman, that in the course of making those personnel changes, he consult and consult widely as I understand he has started to do with some of the school divisions, with some of the people who are devoting their lives to ed ucation. I have great faith in the teaching profession in Manitoba - great faith.

I think that one of the reasons that we've been able to maintain the degree of sanity and the degree of direction and the deg ree of good pedagogical training in our school system in Manitoba is largely because the school teachers of Manitoba have turned their backs on some of the nonsense that has been emanating from the Department of Education over the last few years and have got on with the business of teaching young people in this province without that kind of experimental interference that was being thrust at them week by week, month by month and so on.

So I pay that tribute to the teaching profession in Manitoba and it's not the only one that a person with five children can pay to them. l realize that the express ion that is used in law that they are in effect the adoptive parents of our children during what - six or seven hours of the day - and there is perhaps no more important profession than the teaching profession in terms of the kind of upbringing and the kind of molding and the kinds of attitudes that our children come to develop next only to the parents within the family unit themselves.

I hope that the Minister and the department will start again to be of help to these people; to be of help to true educational training in Manitoba; to be of help to turn out young people from our educational system who are outfitted to cope with the kind of pretty rough and tough world that we're turning them loose in, in this latter five years of this decade and on into the decade of the eighties. lt's a tough time. There is a great deal more knowledge to be assimilated by children.

There is a great deal that the children must know that they have absorbed from the media and from the different kinds of communication technologies that we have today that we didn't have 10 , 15 , 20, 25 years ago. I'm not suggesting for a moment that it's an easy area in which to work but I am suggesting that there is no area within the competence of the Provincial Government that is more important. So in sitting down, Mr. Chairman, I wish the Minister well. I say that very sincerely because the job in front of him is a tough one.

What he has inherited is a mess and there is nothing more important that this whole House has to deal with than the question of the future of our children in this province. 710

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the Leader of the Opp osition for the kind words that he had for me and, more importantly, for the recognition that education is the most important area, perhaps, that the Provincial Government must be involved in. I recognize the challenge, I look for it and I accepted the challenge. it is not only an area of re'sponsibility for the Provincial Government because of the large amount of money that you put into it. it is an area of responsibility for the Provincial Govern ment because of the way in which our constitution is drafted.

That constitution is struck in such a way that responsibility for public education is solely within the provincial jurisdiction. In exercising that sole and comp lete jurisdiction of the Provincial Government I believe that there are two major purposes that need to be kept in mind. The first of these is to maintain and to ensure continually that the programs of education are developed in such a way as to meet the needs of the children that are in the school. The second major objective is to provide that program in such a way that the people who are paying the taxes do not become overburdened. Mr.

Chairman, if I add ress myself first of all to the development of program I have to say to the Leader of the Opp osition that while-recognizing that nothing is perfect, as I believe he did in recognizing some of the changes that his administration made when he once was on the government benches, while recognizing that nothing is perfect, I believe that leadership has been shown within the Department of Education, not only in the last five months but in the last eight years.

What has this leadership been? it has been a leadership that has taken the reverse position of what used to be the case when the Conservative administration was in office. When they were in office I was teaching. I taught in northern Manitoba and I taught in a suburban area of Winnipeg. The problems of education at that time, apart from the provision of programs of need and use to the students, and apart from the problems of fiscal matters, the problems of that time were rigidity of curriculum where teachers who followed the rule book to the letter and would do nothing else.

There were a few options of benefit to the students. There was nothing that the students could do within that school that would encourage them to stay there, if they were not academ ically bound. And we had a school system which produced people who were academically bound. And the rest, for them, they had to take much of the same course material. That was the problem eight, nine, ten, fifteen years ago. Too much rigidity in the curriculum provided by the Department of Education. This government has responded to that by introd ucing some innovation and some change.

I do not regard the change that has been introduced over the last year as change that is helter-skelter, or change that is in any way not conducive to a student learning. Qui te the reverse has occurred. The whole point of teaching is to be able to maintain the interest level of the student. And you don't do that by pouring on to that student material that he is not interested in. So there have been changes in curriculum. There have been develops in curriculum and I think that these have been welcomed by many students.

I ag ree there are those in teaching who will look upon any change at all as something that should be resisted and they are the conservatives in education. I do not mean the Party Conservatives but the small "c" conservatives. Because change in education means quite simply that they've got to revise their teaching notes. They've got to do some more work and that, of course, can be a prob lem. So I think when he talks about program and the problems in the program area his assumptions are wrong. He starts from a faulty assumption.

He starts from the assumption that all was perfect and the change that has occurred, naturally because it started from what is perfect is somehow now not perfect. Mr. Chairman, there have been changes in the program of the schools. There was a question asked the other day about school initiated projects, and the answer I will give now. There was a question asked about the number of student initiated programs and the number of these completed in the last year; that is the year ending Jun e 30th, 19 76. These are the programs that the Leader of the Opposition is referring to.

These are the student initiated programs which students can get cred it for. You know how many there were comp leted in June 30th, 19 76 - 292. There were well over 200,000 students in the school system. Mr. Chairman, I do not think that that kind of student initiated project, which does indeed involve the students and maintains their interest, lessens education. He asked me about what I meant by the core curriculum. Mr. Chairman, I went through the core curriculum for members opposite detailing what I believe is contained in the administrative manual of the Department of Education.

The ten core courses that are required in this province for a student to graduate out of Grade 12 , more required courses now in Manitoba than there are now in Ont ario even with the changes that the present Ontario Government and Department of Education have made. Our educational system, despite what he would maintain and this is why I say that his assumption is wrong, our educational system in Manitoba has never been as trendily progressive as the educational system in Ontario. it is a system of education, I believe, that is a bread-and-butter education.

The core courses are still there and the core courses are still being taught but the core courses should not remain the same. 71 1

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 I do not want to dig into history, into various history books and education and dig up how students were taught and what they were taught and how they were examined, forty, fifty or sixty years ago. But I can tell him that the curriculum has changed since then. In 19 68 it was different than what it was twenty years before that. And in 19 78 it will be different than what it is in 19 68. The purpose of bringing about change or the reasons for bringing about change, I think, are good ones.

Change must occur in education because education is a reflection of a society and surely the Member for Souris-Killarney would not omit that consideration in his debate. If society changes, so must the educational system change in order to provide those programs and skills that are necessary for the children in our school system. That has occurred in the past. lt will continue to occur in the future. The question is, Sir, how should it obtain? What should the Department of Education do? Should it dictate?

Should its leadership be by way of dictation or should its leadership be by way of involving interested groups in a consultative process? Mr. Chairman, when I was teaching, in the end of the '60's, the role of the Department of Education was a leadership role of dictation, they dictated what was to be done in the schools. The leadership role that this government has assumed over the last years has been to alter that and to involve the various groups interested in education in the development of curriculum.

So what do we have, as I explained, perhaps when the Leader of the Opposition was absent, we have today in the depar tment under the auspices of the Department of Education three committees. They are called program development committees. They are related to the three educational levels in our educational system: elementary, the middle years, and the senior years. There are headed by competent people involved in education .

Their task is to revise and devise curriculum, including evaluative techniques, which will be meaningful for our school system, which will be a curriculum that will satisfy the needs of our society and maintain the interest level of the students in the school system. lt is a leadership role that is not dictatorship; it is a leadership role that is consultative. On these program review committees we have representatives of the Manitoba Teachers Society, the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents.

That is the thrust that the department will be taking in the future to revise curriculum through all grade levels. I think it is a good thrust and I think it is something that will not only involve people, but because of that involvement, insure that the curriculum that becomes a part of the school system is a meaningful one and one that will be adapted and used by teachers. Adapted and used by teachers because only in that way can we have a meaningful curriculum.

I think that the Member for Souris-Killarney forgets; he forgets that ed ucation is a dynamic process. it does not stand still, it changes all the time, and to try to maintain that change is in some way a negative thing, I believe, is an attempt to fly in the face of the developments of a technological society. Mr.

Chairman, the Department of Education has shown leadership not only through consultative process and involving these people in the program development committees. lt has shown leadership through the programs that have been initiated this year for evaluation that will eventually lead to the department having the kinds of information it needs to maintain ongoing assessment of how children are doing in school. Leadersh ip has been shown by the initiation of grants to assist parents to become involved in schools.

That involvement is necessary to break down the communication gaps that exist between the home and the school, and that gap does exist in many areas of the province. There has been a change, as well, in the kinds of programs that have been developed which are not what needs to be repeated here, because I think that, as one of the editorial writers mentioned the other day, this education debate has got back to the three Rs and I was rather taken with the reference. The three Rs have come to mean in this legislature, if I recall correctly that editorial, reluctance, recognition and repetition.

We have gone through the reluctance; the reluctance of the opposition to recognize that there has been change and that a lot of the change has been change for the better. Reluctance on the part of the opposition to recognize that change is necessary. There has been recognition, the three Rs are now recognition. And the Leader of the Op position has in part recognized both the challenge and the need for leader ship. That, we have yet to see, how the opposition will come up with a response to that.

But I believe that in the speeches that I have made, which the Member for Souris-Killarney alludes to, the speeches that I have made thr ough the province have resulted in recognition by those involved in education that there has been change; that there has been direction given; that there have been these new programs introd uced, that the program review corn m ittees are set out on their tasks well organized and beg inning to make headway in what is really a very complicated, extraord inarily complicated field which I'm sure the Member for Souris-Killarney would not want, even, to deny.

We have now the final three R as mentioned by that writer, namely repetition. We are going through, it seems now, the same old argument. The Members of the Conservative Party want to put it to us in such a way that somehow things aren't what they should be. And I have to say that although 712

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 there is a challenge clearly for the government and the Department of Education in this year, as in all decades, that we are measuring up to the challenge, that we are providing_the leadership, that we are involving in a consultative process those that are or should be involved. And I have to repeat too what the second area of our program involves, namely the financing of education.

The Member for 'Souris-Killarney wanted to know what kind of financing this program, that I' ve introduced and was passed last night, me ans for the ordinary taxpayer. lt means, in effect, in accordance with the estimates that we have made, a change for the better for most taxpayers. lt means, in estimates, Mr. Chairman, on the estimates that we have made.that some of the divisions, in fact there are special levies on the basis of our calculations will be zero increase, or there will be reductions. There will be reductions in the mill rates in many divisions. Now, Mr.

Chairman, one does not want to get involved and too firmly tied to estimates, and these are only estimates, but of the twenty-one or so non-urban divisions ... I'll get this straightened out, if I may -t here are about forty-eight non-Winnipeg divisions and districts. Of those forty-eight approximately half will have a zero increase in mill rate or a reduction in mill rate. And in the urban areas, some eleven urban divisions, there will be a zero or a very minor reduction in four of them.

So of the fifty-nine total unitary divisions, districts, etc. there will be a zero growth in mill rate or a reduction in twenty-five of them. So in answer to the Member for Souris-Killarney I say that the program that we have before us, which is a program based on estimates, there will be a reduction in mill rates in some of those divisions. Divisions such as Hanover, Divisions such as Duck Mountain.

And I think that one has to recognize, as I'm sa ying, that these are the result of our equalization scheme which does, in fact, bring about improvements in mill rates for those areas of the province that have a low balanced assessment. Mr. Chairman, I recognize that education has to go through trying times. I only ask the members of the Conservative Party to not make education any more of a battle ground than they already have made it.

There has been no intent in this adm inistration to do those things in education which would cause the Conservative Party to get its hackles up and therefore there is no need for them to get their hackles up. I simply am tired of seeing education being used in a way that I think, you know, might be in the way of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The members of the opposition after all are individuals who do have access to the media, and when they make the statements that they do, that in turn becomes part of the information network that floats through the community and there are many children who will hear their parents criticize the schools because of what they have read in the newspaper.

Some of the stuff they have read in the newspaper, of course, is not information that the members of the Conservative Party here have put out, it's information that is based on reports that, as I have said before, were made in places like California and Boston and whatnot. But nonetheless, parents tend to pick that up as information, tend to interpret it as meaning their school system.

I know that to be the case because I have parents phoning me, and saying, "What is this that is going on in our school system?" And when I question them about it, I find out it is, in fact, some program, some experiment that was going on and carried out in California or Florida or some place like that. That does happen. And I think, although the Member for Souris-Killarney, the Leader of the Opp osition, is trying desperately to stay from doing just what I am saying might happen, it is rather difficult for us in this public forum to exchange our ideas to, as the writer of the

article said, go through our three Rs, the third one of which is repetition, without getting into this kind of a debate. I think we should try very hard to avoid it because what is important, as he has said and I have said, and we all recognize I do hope - what is important is the quality of education that is provided in the schools in our province. That educational system, I think, has been a good one. lt is still a good one. Indeed, in my discussions with Faculty of Education people, many of whom I knew, they say that the graduates of our school system today are better than they have ever been.

Better than they have ever been. That is what is coming out of our schools. So, for the members opposite to make the kinds of statements that they tend to make sometimes in going through the three Rs and getting to repetition, they try to convey the opposite. ltj ust isn't the case accord ing to many individuals at the Faculty of Education.

By the way, I want the Member for Souris-Killarney to remember that I worked at the university and when I was wo rking there it was when I first met him, in the Que en Elizabeth Hotel at a conference on pollution. lt was at that time that I recognized the character of the Member for Souris Killarney.

I recognized it very well because I introduc ed myself as a young student doing a Masters Degree degree and told him what I was dQing, why I was there, the university had sent me there, and he, with all the grace that he could muster, said "Well, isn't that nice" and introduced me to the American Con sulate and walked away. I know the university faculty well and I have spoken to many of them and I suppose it depends on who you talk to, on who you talk to, what kind of information you get.

The people I' ve talked to have said that there are better graduates coming out of the schools now than was ever the case in the past. They know more, they have more ability to express themselves. And I think that the teaching 713

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 profession needs to be congratulated for that because they have gone through trying times. Trying times created by politicians trying to score points. I think that we should get away from that kind of a debate. The teachers in this province deserve cred it for the good job they are doing. They seldom get that credit and I am willing to give it to them because they deserve it. One of the reasons that the teacher pupil ratio was reduced was because of the articulate manner in which elementary teachers expressed to me the problems of teaching in elementary schools.

I think there was a necessity of the government recognizing the principle of establishing equity between the teachers in the elementary schools and the teachers in the secondary schools. Mr. Chairman, there are always in a democratic society criticisms of what a government is doing. If that was not the case, our society would not long last as one that is dem ocratic. I recognize what the members of the opposition have said by way of criticism of the departmental Estimates. I find nothing wrong with what they have said in general.

I hope they will hold themselves to sane and rational discussion that has only one objective in mind and that is the improvement in the quality of education in the province of Manitoba for the benefit of the children that are in that system. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The hour having arrived for Private Members' Hour, I am interrupting the proceed ings of the Comm ittee in accordance with our House Rule 19 (2) and shall return to the Chair at 8:00 p.m. this evening. ESTIMATES -AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding(St. Vital): Order please. We have a quorum gentlemen. The committee will come to order.

Refer the attention of honourable members to page 7 in their Estimate Book, Resolution 15 Technical Services, (

b) Technical Services Branch

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: I was going to ask a question, Mr. Chairman, on rural water services. Are we able to deal with that in this area here or do we wait until we get to the Manitoba Water Services Board? MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 15 (b)(1). The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: For instance, in our Farm Machinery Board operations, I'm wondering have there been many complaints from farmers to the Farm Machinery Board in the past year insofar as, say, defective material in new equipment, that is equipment that is still within warranty? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, we had 11 0 complaints relating to parts delay, 46 on service, 5 on pricing of parts, 51 on delivery and 25 on warranty, 20 on miscellaneous items. Total of 257. MR. EINARSON: Well, then, Mr. Chairman, of all those total numbers, were the complai nts in regard to warranty service, were they all satisfactory as far as the farmer's concerned when the final results were made through the farm machinery board? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that it's difficult to answer whether they were all comp letely satisfied.

They were relatively satisfied, in most cases they were comp letely satisfied but to the extent that the board had authority and power, they were able to improve the position of those complaining. MR. EINARSON: I would like to ask the Minister if the Minister is aware at all of all the cases handled, if the dealers were being given a difficult time by the machine companies, that is that they dealt with, in regards to trying to solve the warranty matters? The reason I ask that, Mr.

Chairman, is that some dealers have indicated to me that, you know, they're not getting the backing of the compan ies and as a result sometimes they have to have a difficulttime, that is the agent or the dealer, to prove that a warranty is called for in some cases. MR. USKIW: The chairman of the board advises that in all cases relating to warranty that the board follows back all the way to the manufacture level because they look at that as an area of responsibility of the dealer and the manufacturer. So they do not deal exclusively with the dea ler on a warranty complaint, but they go all the way back. MR.

CHAIAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister for that answer then. I don' t know whether sufficient time has gone by say in the past couple of years and of all those complai nts going back to the factory then, I'm wondering, does the factory make a change or make an improvement, or see to it that, you know, when they find out what the cause of the problem is, make improvements insofar as their products they're selling, whether it be a tracto r, combine or whatever? MR. USKIW: Well this would better flow, Mr.

Chairman, from the machinery institute, that kind of follow-up. Naturally every company who has a number of complaints on a given item, in their own self-interest would want to add ress itself to that problem; but in terms of re-design or things of that nature, I would expect that the Prairie Machinery Institute is the vehicle through which that would occur. MR. EINARSON: Well, then, Mr. Chairman, I probably need to refresh my memory. The institute . has been set up, made in Manitoba. Now, I'd like to ask ag ain, could this indicate, has the day 714 I

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 been set when that's going to be established here in Manitoba? MR. USKIW: April of this year, as I understand it. The staff are already in place but I believe the opening is sometime in April of this year. MR. EINARSON: Then is this institute going to do research on machiner y for all companies across Canada or that is, that are manufacturing machinery? MR.

USKIW: We have on staff at the Portage site, one senior engineer, two project engineers, one machinist, one steno, one draftsman, one project engineer, effective May 1, 19 77; one electronics technician effective May 1, 19 77 and there is a vacant technician position. There were 43 machines evaluated in the period 19 76-77. Individual reports on each machine; there were five reports out by March· 15 th of this year, 20 more drafts comp lete should be available by April 15 , 19 77, 18 others are to be available by June 1s t. Now, most of those would come out of Humboldt. Now, I have a list here of projects.

If the members wish to go into them, I can go into them. MR. EINARSON: Yes, you know, Mr. Chairman , I would like to make a few comments first before the Minister, because I think this is a very important subject. I find that the machinery that is being manufactured today is much inferior to what it used to be and we find that new machines ... there are defective parts to it and I've often asked the machine compan ies as to where is their research when it comes to bringing out a new tractor or a new seeder or something of that kind, have they done sufficient research before they put it on the market. I think, Mr.

Chairman, this is a very important area, I believe it has a very significant effect insofar as the input cost to farmers are concerned because, while maybe there is warranty on defective parts, it nevertheless is a cost to the farmer that he can't get away from. I'm interested to know what we are doing here in Manitoba and in Saskatchewan, where this institute is really going to improve the quality of farm equipment that is being put out by all the major compan ies? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the whoie purpose of setting up the Prairie Machinery Institute was to do just that and to assist the industry in developing the proper prototypes before the machines are put on the assembly line system. We have here a list of machines that have been tested and there are some prototypes, I believe, that are just underway at the moment. I can go over those if you wish, Mr. Chairman. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't mind if the Minister maybe take half a dozen or so, give some idea. He doesn't have to go over the whole list. MR.

USKIW: Perhaps maybe the best way to expedite would be to distribute a copy of this particular document. That would suffice. MR. EINARSON: Well, then, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask. There is a cost involved here and is this cost being attributed or at least charged to the Department of Agriculture, or could the Minister explain how it is being financed and by whom? MR. USKIW: Well, members will recall a few years ago there was an agreement entered into between the three Prairie provinces on the costing of the institute - the capital cost, I believe and the operational cost.

Manitoba's cost is the lowest of the three based on our, I believe it's aggregate prod uction, which is 20 percent of the total. We pay 20 percent of the cost. MR. EINARSON: And wha t does that amount to? MR. USKIW: Yes, the item in this year's Budget is $466,000 which is an increase of 23.9 thousand over last year. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask, are the major machine companies making any contribution towards this project? MR. USKIW: There are two appr oaches, I'm advised , Mr. Chairman. Where there is an evaluation being done the company volunteers the machine. So that's their contribution.

Where they're involved in prototype testing they cover the costs of the prototype. The report of course, at that stage, is private. MR. EINARSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to get onto another subject here and this is rural water services, Mr. Chairman, and ask the ... -(I nterjection)- okay, sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON: Mr.

Chairman, I was going to cover the same things as the Member from Rock Lake covered , but I was just wondering a little further on there, aftert hese tests are done at Portage and other places do you make it a point to release the results of the test? MR. USKIW: I'm advised that they will be in ag rep offices but one can subscribe. ! believe there's a subscription fee involved for the reports to be mailed to them automatically once they are printed. So it's a matter of how you wish to do it. MR. HENDERSON: So if a person was interested he would have to go to his ag reps office to be able to get them. MR.

USKIW: Yes, once they're available they should be there. MR. HENDERSON: Is there going to be any public occasion, like through your news release or anything like that? 715

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 MR. USKIW: I am advised that there will be a charge fort hem -t hey will not be free-t o cover the cost of printing them. MR. HENDERSON: I see. The other thing is, I saw here you have agriculture and engineering services. Just what are you referring to there? MR. USKIW: What page are you ... MR. HENDERSON: Well you're talking about 15 , Page 7, Item 15. MR. USKIW: Well, of course we do provide technical services to farmers in their sewer and water program and in drainage. We have been doing drainage work, as well as engineering in the building design

section of the department, and so on. MR. HENDERSON: Is that where if you want to get a certain type of a building, you can get the designs from your department. MR. USKIW: Well they assist in the development of them, yes. MR. HENDERSON: Oh, I see. So it hasn't anything to do with the agricultural engineering services. MR. USKIW: Yes, sure. Yes, that's what it is. We have field technicians under sewer and water and drainage and building engineers. ' MR. HENDE RSON : Is there any charge for any of these? No. There's no charge for them. I think I read that. You can get them at the ag reps. MR.

USKIW: Yes, there is a charge on field drainage, Mr. Chairman. MR. HEN DERSO N: Oh, fuere i� MR. USKIW: Yes. MR. HENDERSON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. {Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I wanted to make a few comments on the warranty of new machines put out by the different major manufacturers and since I' ve had about twenty years experience as an implement dealer I suppose I could, perhaps, speak with some degr ee of experience but my understanding is that the fact that there may be excessive amounts of failure on a particular component does not necessarily mean that it will fall in the category of warranty. And there have been cases, in my experience, where a component has failed but the component, itself, has met the standards of the manufacturer and the engineers.

And while the component may have a high frequency of failure it does not necessarily fall as warranty as far as the manufacturer is concerned because it does come up to the specifications and the tensile strength and whatever measure is used by the manufacturer to manufacture a component.

The other point is that my experience also has been that until failure of a certain component reaches around 25 to 30 percent a rate of failure in a given year, in a particular model, they may not do anything about that part, that failure, they may just let it ride but when it starts to get to a point where it's up around 25 percent then they feel that their sales may be injured because of this particular failure and then they may move to strengthen that particular part, to increase its strength. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou•able Member for Virden. MR. McG REGOR: We didn't follow that part you meant by component. MR.

ADAM: Well, any component ofthe tractor. lt could be a gear. lt could be a bearing. You have, for instance in the manufacture of bearings you may be able to get several different bearings with a heavier load capacity which the company, to reduce its costs, may not put the heavier bearing in that particular place. Jus t to keep their costs down. On many occasions I have taken out bearings from the manufacturer and replaced them with heavier load capacity bearings to reduce these failures. MR. McG REGOR: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I' d like to ask the question on these testing stations, say Manitoba, Saskatchewan or Alberta, say a disker coming in now, do they test it at the three places or is one testing one particular machine and Saskatchewan taking on other pieces of equipment and the booklet, then, would come out covering the three stations.

Because I certainly remember the books of years gone by that some dealers had real handy and, to me, that was an honourable dealer that carried that even though it did rake over a particular machine that he was selling, show the weak parts, and I' d hope this booklet is of that nature to cover the whole waterfront; you go in and see really what you're buying.

And I think of the price in those years - that would be the mid-sixties, I think Manitoba was asked to join it and didn't and I think the cost, as I recall it in the caucus, about 25,000, and we sure missed a bargain because that indeed would have been much higher now than we were offered back in those mid-sixties. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, we've gone into this subject in some detail some three years ago. it was indicated then that we would have three components: one at Lethbridge, one at Humboldt, and one at Portage.

And that they would not be dupl icating the work, they would be designated certain responsibilities. So in essence Saskatchewan is undertaking the research and development of machineries relating to crop prod uction, cereal crop prod uction, heavy equipment. Manitoba's is in the area of forage and special crops and Lethbr idge, it has to do with livestock, irrigation and livestock. 716

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman . I'd like to ask the Minister where we hit sprays and fertilizers, et c., or do we have to wait on the Minister's salary? MR. USKIW: lt would be under technical services. That's where we are now. MR. FERGUSON: I'd like to ask the Minister if he can give us any information as to the enforcement of the Federal Act to do with the importation of fertilizers and sprays into Manitoba, what the problem is there? MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I really can't.

I'm not familar with the federal system in terms of enforcing the laws as it applies to imports of any goods. it's not a proper subject for the estimates of this department. MR. FERGUSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I certainly think it is a proper subject because it's going to raise the cost of our fertilizer and our sprays as much as anywhere from 10 to 30 percent and I would think that the Minister would be interested in knowing what is going on. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, it has nothing to do with fertilizers. The restriction, as I understand it, has to do with certain chemicals which are not registered in Canada.

Now the law says you can only distribute registered chemicals in Canada. So until they are registered , obviously there is no legal means of introducing them into the Canadian side. MR. FERGUSON: Then is the Minister saying that these new regulations are not affecting fertilizer. MR. USKIW: I'm not aware that they are: MR. FERGUSON: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Yes.

Ju st further to the last remark where he said it did n't affect fertilizers: I had thought it was by the news media and I remember seeing it on the news where they had the forklift and there were fertilizer bags and they had 3400 on it, and I just thought possibly that there's no doubt it affects fertilizer. Are you sure that it didn' t? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Our understanding is that it does not involve fertilizer. MR. HENDERSON: So fertilizer can still move back and forth across the line. MR. USKIW: As far as we're aware, yes. MR. HENDERSON : Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, just to pursue this a little further, there are herbicides that farmers have been able to buy across the line considerably cheaper than in Manitoba, and we are here talking about the cost of inputs to the farmers as it affects Manitobans. I can appreciate this being a federal prob lem, that it is the responsibility of the Federal Minister in regards to the lawsofthe country as it affects this particular situation.

But do I understand the Minister to say when he talks about herbicides that are not registered in Manitoba, are in the United States and that they are the ones that are being affected? MR. USKIW: Well, the two different governments have different regulations as they may affect the production, distribution and use of chemicals. So obviously Canada's regulations are somewhat stronger than are the American ones, in some cases at least. So that all we're talking about is whether or not they should have to meet those standards. To meet those standards they would have to go through a registration procedure.

That's up to the manufacturers and the distributors to carry out. I don't think that one could support the proposition that notwithstanding those requirements, that we should somehow be involved in inducing a product from another country that does not meet our standards. MR.

EINARSON: So what the Minister in essence is saying then, what is a recommended standard in the United States may not be in Manitoba, then that doesn't necessarily mean that the farmer is going to get a cheaper com modity in the states than what he would here because - are you saying then it may not perform the function that we had hoped it would when you buy it? MR. USKIW: Well, it may or may not. But the standards very often relate to health and safety and that's a concern of the Government of Canada.

In the memorandum that we have from them they indicate that there is a real danger of people getting injured because of the lack of proper appl ication, the instructions that come with it, and so on. That's why they insist on Canadian standards as being the ones that have to be adhered to. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, it was my understanding that there was a ban on all herbicides and insecticides coming into Canada, whether they were licensed over here or not. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

USKIW: The release that I have - or copy of the Federal Government's press release -t alks about non-registered chemicals. lt doesn't talk about registered chemicals, it talks about non registered chemicals, which were allowed to come in on an individual permit basis providing the 717

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 farmers use them on their own premises. But apparently it appears to be a very loose arrangement, and the federal authorities have concluded that it is too dangerous to continue that practice. MR. BROWN: Well, of course, that puts a different light on the whole thing then. I think that chemicals that are not licensed in Canada and so on, that's an entirely different story. But I think that everybody is under the assumption that there has been a ban on all herbicide s and insecticides, no matter whether they were licensed or not. This is not the case then. MR.

USKIW: Well, I can only go by the press statement that I have that talks about the banning of non-registered chemicals. MR. BROWN: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 15 (b)(1 )- pass; (b)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; (b )-pass. Resolution 15 (

c) Canada-Manitoba ARDA Agreement. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes. Yesterday I wanted to get some information on how many farmers had availed themselves to the rural water services, and how much subsidy was involved to those participating in the program? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: The total number of applications was 3;223. That is under Technical Assistance. I' m sorry, the total is 16 ,510. This year alone is 3,2 23. MR. ADAM: Is that in addition to the 16 ,000? MR. USKIW: No, that's part of the 16 ,000. MR. ADAM: And the amount involved in subsidy is? MR.

USKIW: For the current year a total of $216, 000 in grants. That's up-to-date, that's up to March 4th for this one year. MR. ADAM: I wanted to ask a question about the new Special ARDA. Can we talk about this program at this particular section? MR. USKIW: Yes. Under the RWS program 7,897 farms received $1 ,13 8,764. 10 in grants up to the end of March 19 76. Then we have 21 6,000 since that time. So we're up to about a million and a third, almost a million and a half dollars in grants. MR. ADAM: That's under the new Special ARDA? MR. USKIW: No, that's under Rural Water Services. MR. ADAM: Oh, I see.

Can we talk about the new Special ARDA agreement on this particular section? MR. USKIW: Well, that's merely an extension of the existing ARDA Program towards the end of 19 78. lt's not a new program per se . lt's an extension of what we have been doing under ARDA. MR. ADAM: Does it come under this

section here? MR. USKIW: lt's this same program . MR. ADAM: Does it come under this particular (c)

(1) Salary? Or does it come under North lands Agreement? MR. USKIW: No, ARDA agreement. No, this comes under this heading. MR. ADAM: Oh, I see. So I wanted to ask, do we have any involvement as faras training assistance on reserves as far as agriculture, under this program? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Mem ber for Ste. Rose is talking about trai ning. This is sewer and water and farm diversification. What we're discussing now is ARDA, so it doesn't come under water and farm diversification. MR. ADAM: Yes, well this is an ARDA Program that I'm looking at here, but it may not come under this heading. MR.

USKIW: Oh, yes. What the Member for Ste. Rose is talking about should have been discussed under Farm Management. That's some piece back in the Estimates, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: Okay then, maybe I can ask under the Minister's Salary. MR. USKIW: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask just for a point of clarification. Rural towns would come under this or would it come under Manitoba Water Services Board? MR. USKIW: The Water Services Board. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder just for purposes of some of us that aren't quite that familiar and up-to-date with the details of the program that provides assistance in terms of water services under this program . My understanding of it is that it helps in the actual purchase of material through the department's services, but as well will pay partial costs of installation as done by a private contractor on that farm if the necessary bills have been presented to the department.

Does all this work have to be pr e-examined or pre-approved before any assistance is capable or in the event this work is being done applications can be accepted? And can a departmental official on the basis of his own knowledge then inspect the work and so qualify that person for this assistance? Could the 71 8

Tuesday, March 15, 1977 Minister also indicate - just again excuse my ignorance - the actual scale of the program, the grants are available how, 50 percent of what, to what maximums or what minimums? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the program provides for technical assistance initially, and hopefully that's the way most of the appl ications would proceed; where the technician goes out and takes a look at the proposa l, makes his recommendations and from that point on the application proceeds, but not necessarily.

That is the hope for way in which it would happen. Additional to that, of course, is the opportunity to purchase , in bulk, materials from the branch at a discount, or at least it's at a saving to the purchaser. And against the total project, of course, is an eligibility grant of $300.00 or up to 15 percent, up to $300.00. Now not in every instance is that procedure followed. There are instances where people install their own systems, submit bills, the department either approves or rejects, but I' m not aware of any rejections. MR. ENNS: I imagine you have some kind of a cut-off time or period?

For instance somebody that has done this in the last two or three months or six months, how tight are you on your scheduling? MR. USKIW: Well, the important thing is to have the appl ication in before the program is discontinued. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One fur ther question on this subject matter while the Minister chooses to enlighten me. The federal program of assistance in terms of well construction and indeed dug-outs is still operative in the province, is it not? MR. USKIW: Yes. MR.

ENNS: Has the Minister got any figures as to -I know it is not within his jurisdiction - is that program being utilized to a fair extent just in a general way? Can the Minister indicate? MR. USKIW: We have no statistics on it, Mr. Chairman. MR. ENNS: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to pursue a little further and ask the Minister: For instance last year was a very dry season and many farmers found themselves short of water both from wells and from dig-outs.

I understand you can hire equipment, or the department provides equipment, for pumping water from one source say, to fill a dig-out. What's the maximum distance that that equipment is set up to pump water? Can the Minister indicate that? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: The average is about a mile, but we have had instances where we went up to three miles, putting additional pumps in the system . They've gone up to three miles in certain cases. MR. EINARSON: In other words what you are saying is, that the

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-19a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 19a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	13fffe8f127d8141cecb22d70fa4bc654e722613

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