Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 24B (37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-24b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 24B - l :30 p.m. , Thursday, May 3, 200 I ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, lion. ASPER, Linda BARRETT. Becky, lion. CALDWELL, Drew, lion. CERII.l.l, Marianne CIIOMIAK, Dave, lion. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACII, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, I larry FAURSCIIOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, lion. GERRARD, Jon, lion. GILLESIIAMMER, Harold IIELWER, Edward IIIC KES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATII LIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, lion.

MIIIYCIIUK, MaryAnn, lion. MITCHELSON, Bonnie MlJRRA Y, Stuart NEVAKSIIONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank I'RAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, lion. SANTOS. Conrad SCIIEI.LENBERG. I larry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER. Greg. lion. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott. lion. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED. Mervin WOWCIIl JK. Rosann. Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River lleights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D. I'. N.D.I'. N.IJ.I'. N.D I' N.D.I' N.D.I'. N.D.I'. N.D.I'. I'.C. I'.C.

I'.C. N.D.I'. N.D.I'. I'.C. I'.C. I'.C. P.C. N.D.I'. Lib. PC . I'.C. N.D.I'. N.D.I'. N.D.I'. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.I'. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. I'.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.I'. P.C. N.D.I'. I'.C. N.IH. N.D.I'. N.D.I'. N.D.P. I'.C. N.D.I'. I'.C. N.D.I'. I'.C. N.D.P. PC . N.IH.

1215 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANI TO B A Thursday , May 3, 2001 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris; the honourable member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler). The honourable Member for Morris, to read his petition. Kenaston Underpass Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Sir, I apologize for that. I beg to present the petition of R. Lemieux, Tom Stott, Rod Roblin and others, praying that the Prem ier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes.

Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Sprin gfi eld): I beg to present the petition of Richard Butuket, David McLaren, Jeannie Paulson and others, praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Sel inger) consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I beg to present the petition of Linda Macintosh, Don Macintosh, Thomas Provals and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr.

Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. READING AND RECE IVING PETITIONS Mani toba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition. It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Will the Clerk plea se read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St.

Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a 500kV and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particular childhood leukemia, to the proximity of power lines. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alter native routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St.

Paul. *(13: 35) Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the petition. It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is 12 times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and

1216 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2001 THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over eight tons of emissions and cause approximately $7.3 milli on in motorist delays every year. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read.

Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest on separated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is 12 times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pol lute the environment with over eight tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIA L COMMITTEE Committee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chai rperson): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TA BLING OF REPORTS Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the Agriculture and Food Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2001-2002 Expenditure Estimates. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am pleased to table The Fatality Inquiries Act report for the year 2000. * (13:40) INTRODUCTION OF BI LLS Bill 19- The Crown Lands Amendment Act Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I move, seconded by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lat hlin), that leave be given to introduce Bill 19 , The Crown Lands Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les terres domaniales ), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor having been advised of the content of the bill recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion presented Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, this bill provides a formal appeal mechanism for leases, use permits and work permits for agricultural Crown lands.

It also provides for a Director of Agricultural Crown Lands and enables the director to lease, issue work permits, use permits and provide the transfer of leases and use permits related to agricultural Crown lands and creates an Agricultural Crown lands Appeal Board to deal with appeals from the decisions of the director. Motion agreed to.

May 3, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1217 Introdu ction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us from Montcalm School five Grades 7 and 9 students under the direction of Mr. Bruce Urquhart. This school is located in the con stituency of the honourable Member for Well ington (Mr. Santos). Also seated in the gallery we have Jane Brenner and Barb Fox who are the executive members of the Marlene Street Tenants Association, who are the guests of the honour able Member for St. Vital (Ms. Alla n).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORA L QUESTION PERIOD Mr. Stuar t Murray (Leader of the Offi cial Opposition): Before I ask a question, Mr. Speaker, I would like to just address on behalf of this side of the House and our caucus. We would like to very much say that our thoughts are with the honourable member, Minister Robinson, who, we understand, is in the hospital as we speak, and we just want to ensure that the message goes out to him, his family and his relatives that thoughts from our side of the House are very much with him during this difficult time.

Pan Am Clinic Purchase -Business Plan Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Offi cial Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table for the House a letter of January 31 from the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) to the chair of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority that was made public today, which indicates that his Government ordered the WRHA to buy the Pan Am Clinic.

I would like to ask the Premier: Why did his Government order the WRHA to purchase the Pan Am Clinic without first exploring other options such as contracting with Pan Am and other facilities to do more surgeries or increase operating times at our hospitals? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Pan Am Clinic has not been purchased, contrary to the words of the Leader of the Opposition. The memorandum of agreement has been released publicly. The due diligence that has been conducted by the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority has been made public.

An outside due diligence that indicates a $1. 2 million benefit to the public of Manitoba has been identified. The doubling of patients in potential surgery with the proposal has been identified. Some issues of information and a business plan as weaknesses have been identified, and those matters have gone back to the Winnipeg Health Authority. I think the member should correct the record. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is cle ar, I guess, what was not done in this absolute process that the Premier refers to was that there is absolutely no business plan and cost benefit analysis to the people of Manitoba.

Attached to the minister's letter to the WRHA there is a document called the "Proposed Operational Plan for the Development of Not for-Profit Special ity Care Clinics." The document states, Mr.

Speaker, and I would like to read: The RHA will recommend to the department a decision to purchase this option with a specific clinic, which will be based on a sound business case addressing the rationale for this decision along with details regarding qualitative and financial impacts. * (1 3:45) Can the Premier explain why his minister ordered the WRHA to begin discussions to purchase the Pan Am Clinic when his Government's own decision and document states that it is the WRHA who should be recommending to Government which clinic is a good candidate for their so-called not-for-profit specialty care clinic? Mr.

Doer: Mr. Speaker, in the Leader of the Opposition's first question, he alleged that we had ordered the purchase. Now he is stating in his second question we ordered the discussions for the Pan Am Clinic. I am just reading the letter. I think it talks about a couple of issues that-

1218 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2001 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In the letter that has been referenced incorrectly by the Leader of the Opposition in his first question, it states clearly that we would obviously want this to be straight and sure that it is not in a potential conflict of interest, that the issues have to be dealt with in a transparent way. I would imagine, given the situation at the Lions Club with the findings that took place there, that was very prudent advice. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Doer government had no business plan, it had no cost benefit analysis, and it did not explore all options available.While the plan indicates that the WRHA first make a recommendation based on a sound business case, the Health Minister disregarded that and ordered the WRHA to immediately begin discussions to purchase the Pan Am Clinic. Can the Premier explain why his Minister of Health demanded that the WRHA buy the clinic without first exploring other options and without having a business plan? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the external review was released publicly.

It did indicate $1. 2 milli on over a five-year basis in terms of the advantage to the public. It did identify a doubling of the number of patients available for surgery. This was later confirmed by Doctor MacDonald. These documents have all been made public prior to any finalization of any, quote, agreement. I would compare that to the trans parency or lack thereof of the SmartHealth proposal that cost the taxpayers- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would compare the transparency, the external reviews, the due diligence that have been made public with this proposal to the frozen food and the lack of a business plan. You know, in the frozen food decision, they did not even include when you went to a private operation that you would have to pay the GST, $1 mill ion per year. That was not included in the frozen food plan, and when you look at the PricewaterhouseCoopers- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

When you look at the issue of the GST just for an example, with the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, where it very clearly identifies that as a potential saving subject to the work that must be conducted by the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, on the one hand you have no transparency, no plan and no accommodation for a milli on dol lar cost to the patients of Manitoba for a private facility- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For a millio n-dollar mistake made by members opposite after the fact, here we have all the information on the table.

I suggest when you compare that to the transparency of the Hydro takeover of Centra Gas, with the good will proposal of $65 mill ion, it is a fairly transparent process and for that I think all the public will be thankful, particularly on behalf of the patient care. I, finally, would like to thank the Leader of the Opposition for his thoughts about our member Eric Robinson, the member from Rupertsland. We will certainly pass on the comments from all sides of the House in appreciation of his medical situation and we will pass that on to his family as well. * (13 :50) Pan Am Clinic Purchase -Busi ness Plan Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Cha rleswood): In the Minister of Health's own rules regarding turning a clinic into a non-profit centre, he says the decision must be based on a sound business case. Yet we know that there was no business plan developed for the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic. Can the Minister of Health tell us why he broke his own first rule and demanded that the

May 3, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1219 WRHA buy the .clinic without having a sound business case to support such a move? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I think unprecedented since I have been a member of this Chamber was the presentation to the public of an independent, third-party due diligence review presented to the public in advance that indicates a profit through this venture of $1. 2 mill ion plus extra services. I think in that instance it very much speaks for itself.

That is in stark contrast, in stark contrast to the experience I saw when I sat on the other side of this Chamber with all of the schemes and deals and fiascos that were perpetrated upon the people of Manitoba. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask the Minister of Health if the reason he did not request a business plan from his department was because his department recommended against the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic, as we have heard reference today in Winnipeg's media. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, we also heard reference to that by the member opposite yesterday.

I asked her to table the information that she was alleging. We have not seen that information. The department gives all kinds of advice to this minister. We weigh the advice. One of the areas of advice- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, one of the areas of advice that I asked the department for, prior to this, was that they do a review of the government's Assiniboine Clinic exercise.

It was entered into secretively by the former government, and a number of recommendations came from the department including involving the regional health authority at the very front end of a thing like this ensuring appropriate conflict of-interest provisions are in place prior to embarking on a deal like that. I asked the department to review the Assiniboine Clinic experiment of members opposite which was not made public, but I asked to learn from the lessons from that as we move into our- Mrs.

Driedger: The minister did not answer my question and I would like to ask him again: Is it not true that his department recommended against the deal to buy the Pan Am Clinic because it was a bad deal for Manitobans? It is not going to improve patient care, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Chomiak: No, Mr. Speaker. Pan Am Clinic Purchase -Con flict of Interest Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, the public is becoming more and more concerned about the relationship between the Premier (Mr. Doer), the Hild ahl family and the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic.

In fact, this morning on CJOB radio the Minister of Health admitted it was a concern of his when he wrote the letter that was tabled earlier here today. My question for the minister is: Can the minister tell us what those concerns are? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated on the radio this morning, I was a lawyer both in private practice and in public practice. In fact, when I was involved in public practice one of my areas of expertise was to advise on conflict-of-interest matters.

I indicated in the letter, very clear, because we are moving into a public-private mix that it is very difficult sometimes for people in the private sector to understand the very high standards that are attached to public sector ventures. We knew of the experience with the Lions Club, what the Auditor said, a mix of businesses and private cause grave difficulty. I knew about the experience with the Assiniboine Clinic, and I indicated that it would be very cautious on the conflict-of-interest matters relating to all conflict-of-interest matters relating to a public private venture. Mr. Tweed: Again, Mr.

Speaker, the minister refuses to answer the question. The question was, and I will ask, and he references the comments he made this morning. He stated when he was asked if there was a conflict of interest: That was not foremost in my mind. He later went on to say: There is no question that there was.

12 20 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2001 again ask the minister: Can he explain what he was referring to in his letter when he was talking about conflict of interest? * (1 3: 55) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, when I was on CJOB and asked about that particular letter I indicated what I indicated earlier, that I, both in private and public practice, have dealt with matters of conflict of interest.

Very, very often people in the private sector, and members know that very well from their experiences during the past nine, ten, eleven years do not understand and appreciate the level of conflict of interest or perceived conflict of interest that is associated with a private-public venture. The interviewer did ask me, Mr. Speaker. He said: Well, were you considering about the Wayne Hild ahl? There are all kinds of considerations when you have an owner who has several businesses, and there were con siderations as well concerning the board structure.

There is a wide variety of consid erations, and I wanted to be absolutely certain that all matters of conflict of interest or perceived conflict of interest were reviewed, and that is why I wrote that letter. Mr. Tweed: What the minister really said was that he was accusing us of peddling this issue around when in fact he wrote the letter dated January 31 and the first question raised was less than- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader ) : The member is engaging in a debate and making accusations and alle gations, and he should be reminded. I ask you to draw his attention to Beauchesne's Rules 409 and 410 where supplementary questions require no

preamble. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendea u (Opposition House Leader ) : On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. It was very clear what this member was doing. He was answering an accusation made by this minister. This minister accused members on this side of the House of putting forward statements that he did not agree with. Mr. Speaker, this letter which we are referring to, the conflict of interest, was written on January 31, which was a long time before we started to sit in this House.

There was a much longer time than from when we started to ask him the questions. If this minister continues to provoke debate in this House, that is how you are going to get the answers from this side. If they ask them, we are going to answer them. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I would ask the honourable member to please put his question. *** Mr. Tweed: I want to ask the minister then, when asked this morning, how he explains the conflict-of-interest statements in the letter, that he suggested the Conservatives were peddling around the difference in the times when he wrote this letter and the issue that he presented today. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, last Friday on April 27, the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) said, and I quote: As the Premier who goes on regular fishing trips with Brian Post!. The Member for Lac du Bonnet stated publicly that the Premier (Mr.

Doer) went on regular fishing trips with the head of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority .. That was wrong and that is what I was referring to regardless of what the member has been peddling. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendea u (Opposition House Leader ) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

May 3, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1221 Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. This is exactly what we are speaking about. We are talking about a letter dated January 31, not two weeks ago. The accusations he made on CJOB this morning were referring to that letter of January 31. This minister is wrong. * (14 :00) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

If you look carefully, I believe, at the question of the member, he said that I made a statement on a particular radio station. He quoted part of the statement, and the sta tement was about the Conservatives peddling, I believe, misinfor ation. I was explaining what misinformation the Conservatives were peddling. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on the same point of order. Mr. Tweed: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker.

To make the information completely correct, the question was: So conflict of interest would have nothing to do with the relationship that Gary Doer has had over the years with the Hil dahl family. He goes on to say: That was not foremost in my mind. To clarify he asked: But what do you really see, and he says: There is no question. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all honourable members that a point of order is a very serious matter. It is very difficult to hear when members are speaking on the floor.

I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 41 7: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. *** Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I indicated, I was very concerned about conflict of interest because of the private-public mix of this nature and because of my past practice as a lawyer, because of the experience we had from the audit with respect to the Lions Club, because of the way and tactics that I know members opposite have employed throughout the time since they have been in Opposition and when they were in government, and the interviewer asked me whether every issue was up for consideration when it comes to conflict of interest.

You have to be very, very forthright and up-front on this kind of stuff, because the standard is quite high in the public sector. Pan Am Clinic Purchase -Con fl ict of Interest Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I have never witnessed in 25 years of business a situation where a purchaser of a business outlines the strategy for purchasing the business in a letter to his agent and then sends a copy of that letter to the vendor of the business. My question- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sure we all want to hear the question. Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question to the Minister of Health is: Why on earth would he send a copy of a letter outlining the proposed strategy to buy a business to the owner of that business? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): You know, Mr. Speaker, it is interesting. In the first line of questioning, as the member said, we ordered the purchase. Now they say it is a proposed strategy that has gone to both sides. We laid out the pattern of going a different route with respect to trying different options and being innovative in the health care system.

We tabled in this House a due diligence report unprecedented in this Chamber, a due diligence report done by a respected, with far more experience than, I think, any members opposite, consulting firm that indicated a $1.2 million

1222 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2001 profit over five years on this kind of plan. More important- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter and should not provoke debate. The question was clearly: Why did this minister copy this proposal that he sent to his department off to the gentleman that he is buying the company from? Mr. Speaker, why would he tell Doctor Hildahl the facts?

Why would he tell Doctor Hildahl all the proponents that he is advising his staff to go into negotiations on? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): It appears from the point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Opposition is trying to dictate an answer. Unfortunately, what happened was that the Opposition got up and interrupted and stopped the minister from answering the question. That is exactly what he was doing is answering the question. Mr. Speaker: Order. I was listening very carefully to the honourable Minister of Health.

On the point of order raised by the Official Opposition House Leader, at this point I would have to rule it as a dispute over the facts. I was listening very carefully to the answer. * * * Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I indicated, we have provided more information on this particular venture than on any other venture that J have seen since I have been in this Chamber, which indicates a profit of $1.2 million. Mr.

Loewen: I ask the Minister of Health: Given that he has stated he was very concerned about conflicts of interest, why would he send a copy of a letter outlining his directive to his staff to buy a business? Why would he create a conflict of interest by sending a copy of that letter to the very person that he was buying the business from? Why would he create a conflict? Mr. Chomiak: As the letter indicates, this was a notification to the parties involved of the creation by Cabinet of a new category of non profit, specialty-care clinics. [interjection] You know, Mr.

Speaker, members in a previous question dealt with conflict of interest. This outlined our concern regarding conflict of interest. It outlined some standards to deal with conflict of interest that would have to be part of any kind of a final deal that was entered into. Mr. Loewen: I would ask the minister: If he has just stated that this letter is just notification to the parties, why did he include in that letter, and I quote, Doctor Hildahl has a major building expansion program planned, and I can foresee that his current corporation may need to exist to act as project managers until the project is complete?

Why would this Mi nister of Health tell the very person he was buying the business from that he was going to need to keep that person around? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, (

a) we wanted to keep all the doctors around and we wanted to retain doctors, which was one of the primary motivations behind this; (

b) it is funny how the member's questions keep changing around and keep changing what they are trying to say. With regard to this particular operation, one of the reasons that this operation has been around from '79, in fact, the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) entered into a contract with this very group. The principal entered into a contract that saw over a million dolla rs go to that particular group. They did very good service, and they are recognized across the province as one of the leading clinics involved in this field. We think that opportunity is very important and Coopers & Lybrand indicated a profit of $1.2 milli on over five years. * (14:10)

May 3, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 23 Pan Am Clinic Purchase -Con flict of Interest Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, one of the questions my constituents and I think all thinking Manitobans want to know from this minister is why, when he is embarking on purchasing an asset, he would write to his agent and say: We have decided to buy it; We have created this category. You will go and work out the details. But you will buy it, and then send a copy of that letter to the vendor so the vendor knows they will get a deal. The only question now is how much more can I get on my asking price.

His constituents want to know why he would tell the vendor that they had a deal before they even had agreed on a price. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, there are various options and ways to approach this. Yesterday members wanted us to enter into a contract with an untested, untried private clinic that is here in Manitoba. They demanded that we sign up with that clinic. That is one way of doing it.

The other way is when you develop, and I said for the past year publicly and otherwise that we are developing a different approach, a made in-Manitoba approach that would mix the private efficiencies with the public sector to try to increase surgeries, to try to reduce waiting lists and to try to keep doctors here. It was a new and an innovative model, Mr. Speaker.

I looked at the experiences that the member had when he did the Assiniboine Clinic and looked at a lot of the difficulties that occurred there, and we are trying to ensure that we did not go in the same area and cause the same difficulties that their experiment with Assiniboine Clinic resulted in. Mr. Praznik: This is exactly the crux of the matter. Purchase -Business Plan Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): I want to ask this minister: We all know that there are many ways that you could expand surgeries in our province.

I just want to ask him why the Pan Am option was not tested with a business plan against all of those other options. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all honourable members when the Speaker rises, all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence. I would just like to kindly remind all honourable members. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

For the first time since I can recall being in this Chamber, a third-party, independent due diligence report has been presented to the public on an arrangement that has been entered into, an agreement in principle. It has been provided, the public can review the details of this. The member is right. There are all kinds of different options that are available. Members opposite want us to do the U.S. model, the pay, pay, pay model. We wanted to try something different. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to ask the minister again why he did not do what this side would want him to do, what the people in his department and the WRHA would want him to do, what the people of Manitoba would want him to do, to have a proper business plan prepared by the regional authority to test all options? Why did he order them to buy the Pan Am Clinic when he had no business plan and when it was not even in the health plan of that regional authority? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I have indicated for the past year and a half, when we attended First Ministers', Health ministers' meetings, the single biggest problem that was facing other Health ministers was the proliferation of private hospitals in various jurisdictions. There are various options. Alberta had a very difficult time with Bill 11 . Ontario is now going to private. We said we were going to look for a made-in-Manitoba third option that would mix the best of the private with the publ ic.

1224 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2001 Mr. Speaker, yesterday the member wanted me to enter into a contract with a clinic that does not even have a patient and has never operated on a person. Now he is saying that it is wrong to go to a place that has been in operation since 1979 and with which he signed a contract. And in addition- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. And it is getting a little loud. I am also having trouble hearing him. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader. on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker. The answer was forthcoming from the minister. All we are getting is interruptions both from the seat and members standing up to interrupt on so-called points of order. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Before I make a ruling on the point of order, I would just like to ask for the full co-operation of all honourable members. It is very, very hard to hear the questions and the answers. I have to be able to hear the honourable member that has the floor in case there is a breach of the rules or unparliamentary language. I would ask the full co-operation of all honourable members. For the point of order by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order.

Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. *** Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and that is why we provided a third-party, independent due diligence report to the people, to the public, in order to look at all aspects of this decision, because we provided the infor ation to the public. Health Sciences Centre Out-patient Pharmacy Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, earlier in the Minister of Health's mandate, he brought together hospital and home care under the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, and he advanced a vision for seamless movement between in-patient and out-patient care. This week the minister has reversed direction and has separated in-patient and out patient pharmacy services for children with cancer and created his infamous shuffle service. I ask the minister to admit that he has a very confused vision of how health care should operate in this province and that he does not know where he is going. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): As I indicated, the member asked about the vision with health care. As I indicated in my speech to the MMA, the first thing to do was to restore professionals. That is why we introduced the diploma program, that is why there are more nurses in training than in any time in the past 10 years, that is why we have increased at the Faculty of Medicine-the cuts that were put in place by members opposite. Secondly, we put in place, we dealt with the SmartHealth. Thirdly, we did the frozen food. Fourthly, Mr.

Speaker, we put in place systems to deal with some of the major irritants in the health care system. We put out significant costs and significant services to rebuild the system last year. This year we are moving to a more public, community-focused system. We introduced the first PACT Program in the history of the province. Mr. Speaker, the member picks out one example and one instance and indicates that somehow that was ordered. The member, who was a minister at one time, ought to know better than that. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the minister for frankly admitting that his approach for a vision for seamless hospital and home care is

May 3, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 25 being chopped and smashed to bits by his hopelessly inadequate planning approach. Now I ask the minister when he will stop trying to say, as he did yesterday to the mothers and parents of children with cancer, that he is trying to accommodate the needs of patients by creating his shuffle service. When will he listen to people and end what is happening at the moment and bring back the out-patient services at the Health Sciences Centre? * (14:20) Mr.

Chomiak: As I indicated yesterday when I met with two of the parents, the parents did raise some valid concerns that we are attempting to address. I also asked for a review of some of the all egations that were made with respect to some ofthe problems that occurred. We are attempting to follow up on those. We also have spoken with CancerCare Manitoba and other related agencies and asked for a very high-level meeting with respect to trying to determine how we can deal with these problems. Mr.

Gerrard: I thank the minis ter for acknowledging that there are problems, but I would like to ask the Minister of Health why he is throwing millions of dolla rs at purchasing private clinics when he is not paying enough attention to the fundamentals of making sure that children with cancer get proper, adequate, good quality pharmacy services? Mr. Chomiak: It is not an either/or. We indicated that we were going to take some steps and do some innovations to try to deal with waiting lists and keep doctors here, something I would have presumed the member opposite is in support of.

We are investing $4 million in capital in order to do that. We are going to expand surgeries and keep doctors here. The member ought to talk to some doctors who are there who are going to stay as a result of this. In addition, we are trying to advance community-based services. There will be more advancement of community-based services probably than at any other time, I believe, in the history of the province. There is a problem I indicated two days ago to the member opposite. Yes, there is a problem with pharmacists and hiring pharmacists and maintaining professionals.

For the past decade, all professionals in the health care sector were treated, shall I say, in less than good fashion. We are in a very serious situation right across the board. Cultural Indu stries Federal Funding Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): My question is for the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism, and Sport. Recently the federal government made an announcement that $560 million would be given to cultural industries across Canada. I am wondering if the Minister of Culture could inform the House if Manitoba's arts community and organizations will benefit from this announcement. Hon.

Ron Lemieu x (Minister of Culture , Heritage and Tourism): I thank the member for the question. We welcome these new federal commitments and certainly look forward to hearing the details and the benefits to Manitoba in weeks to come.

Certainly this is a tremendously important announcement, but, on the other hand, when I hear the comments of the critic of the All iance Party and the Official Opposition in Ottawa how the federal government has no business giving any money to cultural industries or the arts, I am really disturbed by that, because, on the one hand they say there is no money being sent out to farmers and so on and then, on the other side, they criticize the federal government when they are trying to do something for the arts community that is desperately in need of help.

We on this side are very supportive of cultural industries and the arts community. I would trust that the members opposite would also encourage the federal government to support these industries here in Manitoba. Pan Am Clinic Purchas e- Expansion Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): My question is to the Minister of Health. Over the course of the last few weeks or last week and a half we have learned some things.

12 26 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 200 1 First of all, Doctor Hildahl approached the Premier (Mr. Doer) of this province and the Government. We know that Doctor Hildahl approached this Government about the grant monies for the expansion of this clinic. We know that when that failed the Minister of Health wrote to the WRHA demanding that they purchase the clinic. We know that there was no business plan, and we know that Doctor Hildahl was identified as a project manager for the expansion.

My question to the minister is: Why would the minister have identified Doctor Hildahl's group as being a project manager for an expansion when there were no pl ans made by this Government to expand the clinic at that time and the WRHA had not even approached the Pan Am Cli nic about the purchase of that facil ity? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, one of the points that members on the other side fail to grasp is that one of the major motivators behind this particular venture was to try to retain some very high level, very sophisticated surgeons who provide service- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker : Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, Doctor Hildahl has been running this clinic since 1979 and is quite involved obviously and is quite aware and is recognized as a leader in terms of innovation. All during the Bill 11 debate he was approached by media with respect to innovation.

Who else but Doctor Hildahl would be an appropriate person to manage a clinic that is moving towards an innovative model? Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEM BERS' STATEMENTS YM -YWCA Women of Distinction Awards Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Yesterday evening I had the honour of attending the YM-YWCA Women of Distinction 2001 awards ceremony. This year was the 25th year the ceremony has taken place in Winnipeg. The tradition began in 1977 when the members ofthe Winnipeg YWCA decided that a forum was needed for recognizing the often-overlooked achievements of Winnipeg women.

Last night's event saw Winnipeg women honoured for a diverse range of activity and involvement. Women were honoured in 10 categories. The awards ceremony began with the presentation of the Gerrie Hammond Memorial Award of Promise to Susan Keller. Though still a high school student, Susan has dedicated herself to her community and particularly to her fellow peers as a presenter and organizer and as a volunteer with Klinic's Teen Talk program. We can all learn from Susan's example. It is never too early or too late to become involved in our community and to do what we can for others.

I would like to offer my congratulations to all of the nominees and award recipients at last night's event. These women serve as role models to other women and to the community at large. The awards were presented to Shari Hogan, Young Woman of Distinction; Devi Sharma Rocan, Community and Voluntary Services; Barbara Rudyk, Education; Jane Evans, Science; Leslee Silv erman, Arts; Merrell-Ann Phare, Business; Marilyn Will iams, Communications; Sally Longstaffe, Health. The 2001 Woman of Distinction went to Jo-Ann Paley.

I would also like to thank YMCA-YWCA for continuing this important tradition of recognizing Winnipeg women for their hard work and dedication to our community. Mrs. Louise Dac quay (Seine River) : Mr. Speaker, I am ple ased also to pl ace a few words on the record about last evening's event that several of my colle agues and I had the pl easure of attending. It is disappointing that the Doer government, and in particular the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms. McGifford), does not see this as an extremely important event and recognize it with a ministerial statement.

Last evening's event was the 25th anniversary of the Women of Distinction Awards. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

May 3, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 27 Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Diane McG iff ord (Minister of Advanced Education): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I would like to bring to the attention of the House that I was absent from the Y Women of Distinction Awards because my father-in-law had just died. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. McGiff ord: Did you hear? Mr. Speaker, my father-in-law died; therefore, I was with my family. I would have thought the member opposite would have checked her facts before trying to embarrass me publicly. Mr. Speaker: Order.

The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. * (14:30) Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. The member never said that she should attend the dinner. She said that the minister should have today replied in the House about the event with a ministerial statement. There was no disrespect meant. Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, this member was not aware of the situation. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised, the honourable member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mrs. Dac quay: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Last evening's event was the 25th Anniversary of the Women of Distinction Awards. Since its inception, 14 2 Manitoba women have been recognized. These women are our grandmothers, mothers, sisters, daughters, nieces, friends and neighbours. They are innovative women who inspire us, give us strength, provide us with vision and offer their compassion. We are truly blessed to have them in our lives. The 26 women nominated for awards last night are indeed special. They come from all walks of life and are proud representatives of their families and their communities.

They are volunteers, students, professional women and business women. I would just like to reiterate the names of the winners: Susan Keller, Gerrie Hammond Memorial A ward of Promise; Shari Hogan, Young Woman of Distinction; Devi Sharma Rocan, Community Voluntee rism. I would like to add that this vibrant young woman is the daughter-in-law of my very proud coll eague the Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan).

Barbara Rudyk, Education Training and Development; Leslee Silverman, Arts and Culture; Merrell Ann Phare, Business Trades and the Professions; Marilyn Williams, Communications and Public Relations; Sally Longstaffe, Health and Wellness; Jo-Ann Paley, Special Award. I would like to close by congratulating not only the winners of the awards but all those who were nominated. I would like to congratulate the YMCA-YWCA- Mr. Speaker: Order. Is there leave for her to finish the comments? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. Premier's Volunteer Se rv ice Awards Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, many of us attended the 18 th Volunteer Awards luncheon on April 26 this year. The Premier's Volunteer Service Awards included the individual category won by Gabe Langlois, Arnold and Eileen Collins, Darrell Warren, Martin Gosselin and Linda Shapiro. The youth category winners were Joanne Zahaiko and Heidi Fraser-Kruck. The com munity group awards were given to the Breast Cancer Centre of Hope Peer Support Team, the Delta Kappa Gamma Brandon

Chapter and the Emergency Inter Act 88 Incorporated. These outstanding volunteers certainly deserve the

12 28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 200 1 honour bestowed on them by the Premier (Mr. Doer). I would like to highl ight Linda Shapiro, a Riel constituent who was recognized for her 10 years of volunteer work in the development of the support group for parents of high-risk adolescents. Ten years ago, Linda was a single parent of two teenage daughters engaged in high-risk behaviour, endangering their lives and their mother's own well-being. Linda realized no parent should live through such experiences without support.

She developed and facil itated a parents' support group of the Training and Emplo yment Resources for Females, TERF, program. She helped countless parents cope with the loss of their child ren to the streets. Linda has shown great determination and strength in her fight to have families of street-involved youth acknowledged, given a voice, and respected. Congratulations to Linda Shapiro and the other award winners for caring. They represent the volunteer fabric of our community of which Manitoba is so proud. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Leave a Legacy Month Mr. Jim Penner (Stein bach): Mr.

Speaker, notice in a government news release that three of the ministers of our Manitoba government have signed an official proclamation that May is Leave a Legacy month. I would like to put a few words on the record this afternoon regarding the proclamation of Leave a Legacy month. Indeed, I feel particularly honoured to speak to this proclamation since I have the privilege of representing a constituency that is year after year, along with the area represented by the Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), among the best in Canada for per capita charitable giving.

Members of this House are well aware of the generosity of all Manitobans. Representatives in the Conservative caucus received another first hand demonstration just recently as we spent an hour taking pledges from generous Manitobans during the Variety Club "Sh ow of Hearts" Telethon. As pl edge after pl edge came in, we were amazed at not just the generosity of Manitobans but also by how warmly they gave their gift. While accountants and actuaries are able to qualify the amount of dollars, Mr.

Speaker, that are given every year by Manitobans, there is no way to account for the difference those dollars make in the lives of thousands and thousands of people. It is for that reason that the Leave a Legacy initiative is so vital and of fers the opportunity to leave a remarkable testament. I had the opportunity recently in this House to comment on the importance of organ donation and the difference it can make in the lives of individuals. I would suggest that Leave a Legacy initiative is on a par in terms of the potential it has to make a lifesaving difference to many Manitobans.

The lifetime generosity of Mani tobans is beyond question, Mr. Speaker. I would encourage those same Manitobans to consider the legacy they can provide and to take the time to make these preparations. Those extra minutes can make a lifetime's worth of difference. So, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the members of my caucus, I would like to join with the mm1sters and congratulating them for proclaiming Leave a Legacy for the month of May. E-commerce Strategy Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to draw the attention of this House to the provincial government's initiative in creating an e-Friendly Manitoba strategy for information and communication technology. The implementation of this strategy focuses on four key initiatives, many of which this Government has already begun to develop:

(1) The educating and training of Manitobans in the use of information and communication technologies, which is now well underway, through investments such as a $31 milli on Red River community campus built in downtown Winnipeg;

(2) Bringing communities across Manitoba on-line, a process that has already begun through government investment in the Community Connections program, creating 440 public access sites across the province;

(3) May 3, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 29 Attracting business and help ing made-in Manitoba businesses to grow, which we are already facilitating by the introduction last year of Canada's most comprehensive e-commerce legislation and the Invest Manitoba program;

(4) Improving public access to government services through the expanded use of on-line technology and e-government through new services such as on-line student loan applications and the on-line Personal Property Registry. The strategies unveiled by this Government recognizes that business, education and govern ment all pl ay a role in making this vision a reality. To help keep this strategy on track the Government will prepare an annual report on the state of information and communication tech nology development within the provincial government.

Manitoba is making important investments in technology infrastructure across the province, and this Government strategy provides a framework that will quickly move Manitoba into the digitalized world. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. TA BLING OF REPORTS Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I would like to have leave to table the Supplem entary Estimates Information for the Department of Transportation and Government Services and move to expenditures. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to table-[ Agreed] House Business Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the house ple ase to see if there is agreement to waive private members' hour today. Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement to waive private members' hour for today? [Agreed] * (14: 50) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSER VATION Mr. Cha irperson (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. Will the

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 ple ase come to --------------------- order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Con servation. It was previously agreed by this comm ittee to have a global discussion on the entire department, and once all questioning was com pleted, the committee would then pass all lines and resolutions. We are on line I. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $458,800. Shall the item pass? Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur -Virden): believe, Mr. Chairman, we will not pass that at this point. We will continue with the general discussion. We were in the process of having some questions answered just before the break this morning. So I would check with my coll eague to see if he wants to re-ask that ques tion, or if the minister is comfortable with it, we could ask the minister to reply. Mr. Glen Cummi ngs (Ste. Rose): I defer to the minister. We were part way through that question if he would like to finish the response. Hon.

Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): I believe, before we adjourned this morning, the Member for Ste. Rose was inquiring as to whether there would be an ade quate supply of water with respect to the Simp lot plant. [interjection] Irrigation, okay. As far as we know today, based on current information that we have, I am advised that, in the driest year, for that area around the Portage area, the amount of water that is available to the Assiniboine River, I am told, is about 20 000 acre feet of water. Now I am told that is 20 000 acres with a foot of water.

In phase one, Simplot's requirements would be 10 000 acre feet, so that means that, again, we are talking about the driest year. In wet years, of course, it could be more. We are talking about the driest year. So if Simplot's requirements would be 10 000 in phase one, that would leave 10 000 for other uses, including existing

1230 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2001 irrigation requirements for the other potato plants. That would leave 10 000 acre feet. In phase two, I understand the requirement would be an additional 10 000 acre feet. Now, I am told that one potential source of supply could come from adding gates to the Shell mouth Dam, which would create approximately 10 000 acre feet if we were to add additional gates to the Shel lmouth Dam. But we are currently, as I was saying earlier, conducting a study right now, a detailed study of the Assiniboine River.

Once that study is comple ted, I guess we will be in a position to verify with much more accuracy the numbers that I have just given. Mr. Cummi ngs: More of a statement than a question, I guess, given the planning window that is necessary to make any kind of additional reserves happen and some of the sensitivity of the discussions including environmental con cerns, I hope the minister will work with the Ministry of Agriculture to deal with the long term opportunities.

My biggest concern-and some of my coll eagues may wish to expand on this so I will not dwell on it at the moment-is that when the opportunities for investment do present themselves, and I am no wiser than the next person about how fast the potato market or production is going to grow. It seems like there is a world-wide demand that is quite insatiable. There are companies who have invested in Alberta in order to simply try and cut of f the supply to their competitors.

So it means that sometimes these questions come to bear very quickly on a jurisdiction, and if another com pany were to show up in Manitoba looking for potato production, it would be a problem. If the minister has knowledge of ongoing long-term work that may lead to further water retention or further development of water, then I would be pleased to hear about it but simply want it on the record that for the development of this industry and others that are associated with it, potatoes need not be the only source. Frankly, the weather-related issues may drive things.

We are currently in the middle of a drought in southern Alberta apparently, and I am told that there are irrigators there who are going to be rationed and may not be able to get the volume that they want. You do not need me to explain that that could suddenly translate into an urgent request to expand here if we have water. So I leave that with the minister and I will be giving the same message to the Minis try of Agriculture, that this is not just hometown talk, it is also the huge economic spinoffs that occur to agriculture.

I will just put one example, that being the construction of one potato shed is a quarter of a million dollar undertaking. Last summer and the summer before in that part of the province the contractors could barely keep up with the demand to build those sheds. Competent storage along with the ability of the producers is one of the things that will help extend the economic opportunity in that part of the province. So I will just leave that with the minister. I have one other aspect to that and I think my collea gues might want to expand on it, but the gates of the Shellm outh Dam are not exactly non-controversial.

That is why I said what I said over the last couple of minutes. There are other alternatives, and there is certainly a community there that has felt they deserve some spinoff from giving up the shoreline and simply the volume of the artificial lake that we created there. Going back to when it was first created, there are still outstanding issues. So it is not a non-controversial or simply a done deal when somebody decides to put the gates on. So again I urge that long-term planning, and that includes probably the Assiniboine management board and other studies that you currently have underway.

You have already touched on that but I will just leave it there, and probably my colleagues will want to expand in that respect. I have one other question that I would ask. It is not a constituency question, but it does fall into the area of a question that has arisen. I know the ministry has undertaken to deal and take action in regard to a flooding problem that an individual has had a piece away from Ninette, and the individual I do not think would mind me putting his name on the record. It is one Mr. Sykes.

I would give the department credit and this minister credit for having moved forward with his problem and have attempted to deal with it more than has been done in the last few years. But there is still an outstanding issue and one which I do not think too many people are

May 3, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1231 aware of or have been apprised of, and that is that there is potentially a road, highway construction and a municipal construction that may have cut into the top of an aquifer, and he may be getting water out of an aquifer that is now coming through and continuing with his problem. Those likely would have been licensed undertakings. I just simply would put it on the record that if the minister would undertake to review that situation, if what I put on the record is true then it is probably a serious situation.

Because of high water levels, the lakes may be pushing water out through the aquifer and then into a drainage ditch that then cuts across his agricultural land. All I am asking is if the minister and the department would agree to undertake that. I am not trying to jump start anybody here. In fact, I want to give the depart-ment credit for what they have done, but there seems to be another problem there that nobody anticipated including him and obviously includ-ing the people who may have put these ditches in. So I will just leave it there, and I will tum it back to my coll eague. * (15 :00) Mr.

Maguire: I just would ask if the minister had any comment in regard to that particular case. Has there been any awareness of it? Mr. Lathlin: No, I have not been apprised of that situation as yet, but I will make a commitment to the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) that I will very shortly look into that, review it and endeavour to get back to him with a report. Mr. Maguire: Mr.

Chairman, I will continue with the discussion we were having in regard to some of the structure, but one of my other colle agues will be along and have some questions in regard to flooding in southeast Manitoba and so I may defer to him when he comes as well. Mr. Chairman, just looking at the organizational charts that the minister has provided me, and I thank him for his response and bringing this to my attention, replying to our request from yesterday and g1vmg us the organizational charts of the old Natural Resources and Environment Departments and the one from last year as well.

I notice there are some changes there, as he pointed out yesterday, with the Oil and Natural Gas Conservation Board. That board, then, is being handled now by the Mines department, is it, energy, mines, or can the minister tell me who is looking after that area now? Mr. Lathlin: That res ponsibility has been transferred over to Industry, Trade and Mines. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, that was part of the shift.

If I could ask the minister if that was part of the announcement that was planned, all of the staff and everything in that board and the work that it was doing would be just removed from the Ministry of Conservation and went to Mines. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, the answer to that question is, yes, the board, including the staff, have been transferred over to the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines. Mr. Maguire: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I guess I am wondering a little bit about the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation and wondering if the minister can give us any update on activities that are taking pl ace in that area in regard to some of the landfill sites and that sort of thing that they may be dealing with in the province. Mr. Lathlin: The Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation is still functional and operating. The board is still there.

As the member might be aware, there is an entity called the Miller Environmental Corporation which basically runs the day-to-day operation of the facilities that they have acquired from the Hazardous Waste Corporation. That is to say, they have a waste treatment plant and they also have a landfill site. I understand they also have a waste storage facility that they manage on a day to-day basis, but the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation is in partnership with the Miller Environmental Corporation. The board is still quite active.

12 32 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 200 1 Mr. Cummi ngs: Has the minister had a chance to meet with the board and/or representatives of Miller Environmental, which, in fact, are part of a shared operation? Mr. Lathli n : Mr. Chairperson, yes, I have met with the Miller Environmental Corporation. I have also met with the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation. When I met with all these groups, the main purpose of the initial meetings was to get acquainted.

The board had the opportunity to advise me of their purpose as a board or a commission or whatever, the groups that I was meeting, their history with government and the kinds of things they have achieved. In some cases they told me about what their future pl ans were. Then further meetings that were held were usually intended to talk about future activities. Some groups presented me with business plans.

Some of those business pl ans are under review. * (15: 10) Generally all the groups that I have met, that is how the pattern was, an initial get-together and then if second meetings were held they were intended to outline future direction. The second meetings usually presented me with the opportunity to tell the board or a commission about the future direction that I wanted to take as a minister and also to advise them of govern ment priorities and so forth. We have had some pretty useful meetings already. Mr.

Cummings: Does the minister have a change in direction planned for the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Corp and Miller Environ mental? Mr. Lathli n : I guess if I can call it a new direction in the absence of a comprehensive hazardous waste collection program. In Manitoba we are preparing currently a regulation to bring in such a comprehensive waste colle ction program. In the meantime, though, we are contracting with this Miller Environmental Corporation, as I referenced earlier, to provide the household hazardous waste services.

We are also exploring and establishing a household hazardous waste stewardship initiative to replace the contract that we have currently with Mill er. I expect that to be finished within the next year. By this time next year, hopefully, we will have something in place. Mr. Cummi ngs: It was my understanding that based on prosperous operation here in Manitoba, Miller might well invest further and expand their operations now. I would be the first to admit that hazardous waste management has been a rapidly changing field.

This contract was only a small part of their business, but I would imagine it would be fair to call it a core part of their business. Does the minister have any understanding, or been given any understanding by Mil ler, for what their future operations would include in the expansion? Mr. Lathlin: I am afraid I am going to have to propose to the member that because I do not really have adequate information with respect to the other activities that Miller might be involved in, I am not able to answer that today.

I want to propose to the member that: Can I come back with that information after I have researched it a little bit more? Mr. Cummings: Is the operation in compliance with its licence? Mr. Lathlin: I understand that we have regular inspections carried out on the Miller operation, but I also have to point out to the member that I think he will probably recall the fire that hap pened at a Miller facility. As a result of that fire, there are still I 0 outstanding charges in pl ace. Those are with the Department of Justice, cur rently.

Beyond that, we do not have any immediate concerns, with respect to adhering to licensing requirements. Mr. Cummings: I guess that was a concern that I had. There are those who might raise their eyebrows at this number. Is it fair to say that these would likely be classified as housekeeping issues that they had not taken adequate care of, or are they of such a nature that they would be considered more significant? * (15:20) Mr. Lathlin: I think the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) will probably understand if I were to indicate to him that because these charges have been laid before the court system,

May 3, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 33 that perhaps it would be inappropriate for me to get into further detailed information with respect to Miller. So I would respectfully ask the member if perhaps we can go in another direction. Mr. Cummings: That is understood. I recognize that probably I was getting in an area that the courts would frown on too much comment from the regulator. I realized that after I asked the question. In the end, what I am really concerned about is if we are potentially losing long-term investment from Miller, and that is why I asked the question earlier.

The industry has changed, but they are a well-respected corporation operating largely in eastern Canada. They did bring considerable money to this operation, and there has been a steady consumption, if you will, of waste, to the best of my knowledge. I certainly would encourage the minister to have his people continue to be involved with this organization and others to make sure that there is an adequate and profitable waste collection system in the province. Certainly the taxpayers of this province have a significant investment in that corporation as it stands.

It is considered probably one of the two more competent sites in terms of degree of protection that is available in the area, the isolation of the site and all those things. It is something that I hope the minister would share our view that it is also an opportunity for economic expansion if the opportunity presents itself. I do not expect him to share corporate secrets, but I do want to bring to his attention that he has a finger and a window through the membership on the board, the man agement board, to encourage further investment in the province, if that is at all profitable. Mr.

Lathlin: I can indicate to the member that our staff continue to meet with Miller, and I have not been advised of any apparent problems that are insurmountable. I can safely indicate to the member that those meetings will continue and the work will probably continue with Miller. Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): I have some concerns that I would like to share with the minister and his staff. The Steinbach constituency which is, of course, south of the Trans-Canada Highway and a bit east is part of the Red River Valley water col lection. The water from the La Broquerie municipality, the Ste.

Anne municipality and the Hanover municipality runs into the Red River, and it runs from the southeast corner of the province just about to Winnipeg. I will wait for you to get a map. I would like to even share some pictures with you a little later if I can. I noticed on page 74 in the Estimates book that money is set aside for Surface Water Management. I guess, my first question would be: Is the southeast corner a water management district? Mr.

Lathlin: I can indicate to the member that, first of all, there are no conservation districts there, but apparently, and I remember talking to somebody from that group, there is some sort of an association of municipalities who have, on their own, gotten together to address some water issues for that area. I cannot recall the name that they gave themselves, but there is an association of municipalities there. Mr. Jim Penner: It seems to be that it constitutes whether it is in writing or not; it constitutes a drainage district or a watershed area.

There are regulations in pl ace, are there not, to govern the construction of ditches and the opening of roads? Mr. Lathlin : Yes, there is a requirement for a licence in order for one to dig a ditch or open any kind of a channel. Anywhere where one is contemplating on moving water, one would require a licence. Mr. Jim Penner: This spring again there have been a number of problems in the southeast corner with overland water and the snowfalls in the forest reserve in the Whiteshell, Sandilands, seem to build up, particularly in the wintertime.

If it is a moist winter, the south seems to get quite a bit of snow, even more so in North Dakota and South Dakota, but the snow stays in the bush and all of a sudden the temperatures reach 15 or 20 Celsius, and then there is a rush of water late in spring. So various independent

12 34 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2001 moves, I guess, are made. I went to tour the area and looked at road cuts that kind of amazed me. May I show you these? It might be unusual but it is a problem. These are the kind of road cuts that I witnessed two weeks ago in the area. I will not tell you where it is, because the fight is between municipalities. I do not want to get into that. One mile into Hanover, this Christmas tree farm, it is destroyed. You see, when the water gets to the Manning Canal, then it is okay, but when it comes out of eastern Manitoba, we have ruined farmland.

We have flooded farmland. We have Christmas tree farms where people are standing up to their backsides in water. [interjection] This year, yes, all this year. It is all in the last few weeks. I will leave those with you. I will not identify the farmers and I will not identify the location because I do not want to come into dispute. I just do not understand the regulations. I know the R.M. of Hanover is very concerned that a group of residents have filed a compla int with you, and the R.M. of Hanover is asking for understanding, as well, to see if we can get the drainage from the borderline, Mr.

Chair, between La Broquerie Municipality and Hanover Municipality. The water seems to come suddenly into Hanover, but it does not have any place to go until it gets to the Manning Canal, which is a long piece off. That is on the west side ofNo. 12 highway. So we have a really difficult situation there where the value of this land has gone way down. Farmers both south of Steinbach and north of Steinbach have lost their trees. I am just wondering: Are there laws in place and is there funding available under surface water manage ment whereby we can do a study?

This does represent a large population in the province of Manitoba. * (1 5:30) Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Latblin: I was going to ask the member: Is that you here in the picture? Mr. Jim Penner: No, that is a friend of mine who knows the countryside very well. Mr. Latblin: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I really can relate to-this one here I can say I am able to relate to that situation that the member is referring to because during the, well, the flooding danger is starting to go down a little bit, but when it flooded I toured Breezy Point.

That was kind of different, but then I went to St. Laurent, I went to Ashern, and I saw exactly the same thing as you are talking about. This time of the year when there is water coming over the land and onto your land or onto your street, people do what they have to do this time of the year. We do not go and jump on somebody that has cut a road temporarily just to get rid of the water that is building up there and it is flooding homes and such as what happened in St. Laurent and Ashern.

After the water has receded, then we go around and try to help the communities restore, backfill whatever road cuts may have been made and so forth. The other thing, when I was in St. Laurent and Ashern, people there were very quick to point out to me, they said that if these culverts were a little bit bigger, we would not have this problem. So on the one hand they blame highways and transportation for having installed culverts that were too small and did not have the capacity.

Then I go and talk to the next person, and that person tells me, well, you know, when these culverts were installed, that was for a different day. Things have changed. More people have moved into the area. More people, legally or illegally, have done their own thing to move water. He was trying to give the message that the culverts, the ditches that were put in, that were installed at the time, served their purpose. I guess as time goes on, added pressures came on as a result of people moving into the area, more farmers, in some cases more cottages even, in one area that I visited.

So I understand what the member is talking about. The bottom line is there are requirements for a licence to remove water, and that is why we introduced The Water Rights Act last year to try to have better management of it. I remember some of my col leagues from the other side, from the Opposition telling me, well, you know, if you pass this bill, does that mean you are going

May 3, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1235 to go and put this guy in jail just because he is trying to move water from his yard so he is not flooded? The answer that I gave at that time is the same as today. No, of course not. Common sense will prevail. We are not going to charge anybody for trying to save his property. After all, that is what everybody is doing, and that is what these people are probably trying to do. Technically, I guess, they are breaking the law, but practically, I do not think we will jump on anybody for trying to do the right thing for that purpose.

After having said that, we also made a commitment to the people, to members of the Opposition, to public hearings, presenters, that we were going to be launching or devising a plan that would address water management needs all over Manitoba. Whether we are talking about drainage or irrigation-as we talked about earlier today-supply, or just good drinking water, the health of the water that is in the streams and lakes-hopefully, whenever we get done, we will have enough information that will enable us to develop a management plan all across Manitoba.

The way we are doing it right now, you know-1 guess over the years there were regulatory regimes in place, but people decided to do things on their own here and there, and that contributed to the problem. Whenever there is development, that contributes to the problem. When Mother Nature speaks, that contributes to the problem. So I think, hopefully, in the next little while, I am hoping within one year, or around about one year, we will have in Manitoba a comprehensive water management pl an that hopefully will alleviate or address some of these things that the member has given me evidence of. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr.

Acting Chairman, when you drive south and east of Winnipeg, by the time you get to Steinbach-! should put it this way. If Steinbach were going to get flooded, the Fort Garry Hotel in Winnipeg would have to be under water, and that is a distance of about 70 kilometres. If you go the next 50 kilometres south and east, the ground rises much more quickly, and you see the banks of the prehistoric Lake Agassiz. Lake Agassiz, I guess, covered most of Manitoba at one time. It is that runoff that has been there for probably hundreds of years, although that runoff used to flow south.

The Red River was blocked by a glacier halfway across Manitoba, so the water could not flow north. The water flowed south. I have read that in archeological text, and so on. Since the melting and moving of the glaciers, the water flows north, and we are actually sitting right here in a lake bottom. So much of Manitoba is this drainage system. When I see that water management districts have been formed in some areas, but not in the southeast comer, I am wondering if the water management district has stronger supervision and better regulation than what we have in the southeast. * (15 :40) Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Acting Chair, the issue that the member is talking about-when I first became minister and when I was being briefed, they told me what conservation districts were, how they came about and what their function is and how they are being funded, which department is responsible for conservation districts. So I was immediately sold on the idea of conservation districts, because based on what I was told, I thought they were a very useful and appropriate vehicle that municipalities could use in their management of water.

So I asked the question, the question you are asking today: Why is it that we do not have conservation districts in the Red River Valley, because there are conservation districts all over the place. We have one in The Pas that was just recently formed. The answer that I was given was apparently we have encouraged communities along the Red River Valley to form conservation districts, but because people in those areas know how severe flooding can be whenever it comes about, I think that is the one reason why people are shying away from conservation districts.

Another reason I was given is that once they get into a conservation district arrangement, that would lead to municipalities having to fork out more money to maintain the conservation districts, because the Government would start backing away and leave municipalities having to carry the ball, as it were.

12 36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2001 So I am with you there. If we can convince municipalities along that area to get into some sort of a-the conservation district concept I think is a very useful one, and I wish people, municipalities in that area, would go that route. I guess we will have to have more meetings to explore further the idea, but that is one way of addressing the problem. It certainly would not address the whole problem, but it would certainly go a long way to alleviating some of the difficulties .. Mr. Jim Penner: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I would like to just define the situation a little bit more carefully. I mean, we can go back to the original Lake Agassiz which forms the landscape, I guess, but what has happened in the last few years has changed the landscape again totally. The farmers who build these 10 000-, 12 000-, 15 000-hog operations park their barns in the middle of sometimes fairly useless land. It is swampy land; it is stony land; it is brush land. It is not fertile land. It is clay and sand, and so this land is ideal probably for what we call "hog alley." So that is southeast of me.

Steinbach, when you go east towards La Broquerie on Highway 52, it is now being called "hog alley." But these farms required drainage to use the land, they required roads to move the feed in and move the animals out, and they required areas to dispose of their waste. So with the development of hogs-1 am told there are 10 hogs for every person in Manitoba. The problem is, they cannot vote If you take a small plane, as I have done, and just circle around in the southeast comer, you will see unbelievable developments. I just could not believe the size of these operations.

This development, along with moving people in, staff in, and a lot of Europeans are coming in, has changed the landscape so amazingly that there is the opportunity for water to be penned up and released, and when it hits the farmlands around Steinbach-the word "steinbach" means a stony brook, and it is actually a swamp. It was full of artesian wells. When I moved there in 1946, it was full of artesian wells. Any time you pushed a pipe in the ground, the water would squirt four feet high. So what happens is the water coming through the municipalities of La Broquerie and Ste.

Anne or La Salle, whatever is east of us, just comes rushing suddenly through in spring. You have seen those pictures of how the area gets just swamped, and it is getting increasingly worse. Because the landscape has changed, it is getting increasingly worse. I am just looking at your Budget and I am hoping, Mr. Min ister, that we can identify the problem. I am a business person; I am not a naturalist. I do not claim to fully understand and identify the problem, but it seems to me that it is re-occurring and it is growing, and somehow or other it has to be addressed.

I do not want to have animosity between the municipalities. We have very productive municipalities there. I think it is a good place for the hog farms to go. It is not going to offend anybody. These people are paying taxes. It is helping our schools. At the same time, we have a drainage situation there. I was just wondering if the southeast would be included, since about 80 percent or 90 percent of the people, I think, live within 50 miles of the U.S. border. They are creating a problem besides having to suffer from the problem. They are both the problem.

Still, it seems to me that it behooves us if there is money in the budget to do service water management, that it needs to be addressed in southeastern Manitoba as much or more right now than areas where even understanding it will not make a diff erence. I think we can make a difference in southeastern Manitoba if we study it. * (15 :50) Mr. Lathlin: Yes, the member has accurately described the situation in the southeast area of Manitoba. Right now, for this year's budget, I do not have any funds specifically earmarked for that kind of activity.

What we are doing, though, is we are continuing to work with those municipalities in that area to try to make sure there is some consistency or co-ordination with the development that they are getting into. I am talking about the barns that you are talking about.

Mav 3, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1237 If one starts digging a ditch around his farm or place of residence, around a hog barn, that directly impacts negatively on somebody else downstream. We try to work with those people to try to avoid those kinds of situations. For example, I related a story here yesterday, I think it was yesterday. When I was touring the Interlake area, St. Laurent and Ashern, there was this great big ditch crossing the highway. Right after it crossed the highway, I am sure it was some kind of a farmer had built some kind of a crossing across the ditch.

I am telling you, that person, whoever it was, was creating a Jot of problems. I was wondering why people, his neighbours, did not go up to him and ask him to remove that crossing that he had built across the ditch. I appreciate what the member is saying. All I can tell him right now is that we will work with those communities with the idea that we can come up with a better way of doing it. I know our livestock panel has gathered a lot of information. There is some useful information contained in that report.

I think once we have imple mented some of those recommendations it would go a long ways to alleviating some of the problems that the member is referencing here, although ahead of the report and the panel we have already started to implement programs that will hopefully resolve some of the situations that the member is referring to here. For example, we have more-what do I call those?-community development plans. Since we have started, I believe we have approved 12 community plans, municipalities and those community pl ans, hopefully, will contribute to the resolution of the problem in the end.

The other thing we have done is, we have made it mandatory for these technical review committees to be activated whenever a project is proposed. We have also said to municipalities that there will be no construction started until the technical review committees have completed their work and have forwarded their recommendations to the municipalities. I think I will stop there for now because I want to ask staff to give me additional information on the livestock part of my response.

I do not want to give you the wrong information, but I am telling the member this because I want to assure him that we are moving along, maybe too slow, but nevertheless we are moving along, to address that very serious situation. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr. Acting Chairman, I might mention that when I toured the southeast with some guides who showed me where the cuts were and where the ditches were dug, one ditch, they claim, was 25 feet deep. We could see in the road cuts, the teeth from the backhoe and the marks from the tires of the backhoe, so these were not accidental road cuts, they were quite intentional.

One of the solutions would probably come in cleaning out the Manning Canal and the drains into the Manning Canal running east, Jet us say, from No. 12 highway, where the Manning Canal runs under No. 12 highway, to the R.M. of La Broquerie. If a machine was to operate and remove the silt and the underbrush from the canal. The Manning Canal west of No. 12 highway seems to be adequate, and may have been cleaned, as far as I can see, but the Manning Canal and the drainage system east to the R.M. of La Broquerie appears to be clogged and overgrown and filled with silt. Mr.

Chairperson in the Chair When I am looking at your budget, it is long on spending and short on detail. I am just wondering. Is there a chance that the farmers. along this low spot between the R.M. of La Broquerie and almost to Ste. Anne, could be accommodated in some way with the cleaning of the drainage channels? Mr. Lathlin: I can indicate to the member that apparently we did some brushing there in the fall. I am also advised that this summer, we are doing some survey work there to determine what additional work has to be done. We are going to go back there and try to further improve the Manning Canal.

I must agree with the member, though. You know, I have toured other places, and I, too, have pictures of ditches and canals and drainage ditches where trees are actually growing, and tall grass, and pl ugged-up culverts, falling-down

12 38 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 200 1 bridges, and so forth. I did that to try to impress upon Treasury Board, when I went for additional monies that I can use in drainage. We were able to receive an additional all ocation of $50 0,000 strictly for drainage work. So that means this year, for the first time in about 10 , 12 years, together with Intergovernmental Affairs, there will be approximately $1. 5 mill ion that will be earmarked for drainage work.

Now, I should qualify that statement by saying that $0.5 milli on of that is in Intergovernmental Aff airs under the Water Services Board; $1 million is in Conservation; $500,000 in the regular Budget; and we were able to get an additional $500,000 new money to add on to our budget. So it is a start; it is not much. I am told that I could probably spend all of it this summer just doing one project. * (1 6:00) Mr. Jim Penner: Thank you for those remarks. I appreciate that fact that I bel ieve the minister and I have seen similar things, and we have an understanding.

The position, as Minister of Conservation, I love to see natural environment conserved and retained. We have a beautiful forest reserve in southeastern Manitoba, for those of you who have not been there, Sandi lands, you know, south of the Whiteshell. It is just a marvelous place. It was my playground when I was a kid, and I still love to go there. If I get visitors from anywhere in the world I take them there. We do not want to see that change. When you get closer to the populated areas like La Broquerie, there have been intense changes in the landscape due to farming changes and population changes and so on.

Then when you get in around the communities like Mitche ll, which is four miles west of Steinbach, we identified nine hog operations within a two-mile radius of Steinbach. We have applications on the board right now in the Mitche ll area which are very seriously being objected to. Let me know if I understand this correctly. I understand that the approval needed for a hog barn, the laws were changed last year, that you had to have permission or consultation with people within one and a half miles, but it used to be a mile. Do I understand that correctly? Mr.

Lathlin: I do not have that level of detail on the information that the member is seeking. Distances, I do not have that, but I will endeavour to get that information for the member and maybe give him a report next week. Mr. Jim Penner: It is difficult as the MLA for the Hanover riding, Hanover constituency really, it is not the Steinbach constituency, it is the municipal ity of Hanover. We have some fairly large population groups like Mitche ll and New Bothwell, Kleef eld and Grunthal where the farms are getting closer and closer, the big hog barns are getting closer and closer to the communities.

I am caught in the middle. I have a farm four miles from Steinbach, and it is no longer usable for picnics because there are too many barns close by. As I was trying to describe before, the prevailing water runoff is from the southeast corner to Winnipeg. The prevailing wind that we experience 80 percent of the time is from the northwest. When you have an 8000-hog operation being built one mile away from a new school that is being built in Mitchell and directly northwest, the citizens are up in arms.

I have to admit to you, I do not understand how the law was changed last year and what the time limits are on the applications. If I could get some information to that to my constituents, they are asking me these questions. I do not have the answer. I say go to the Min ister of Conservation, but maybe I could be of help if I understood these regulations and how they have changed. I need to know the old regulation and the new regulation. I would be happy to meet with one of your collea gues if I could do that. Mr. Lathlin: I would be more than happy to help out the member.

In dealing with his constituents what we will do is, you know, we can do it either way, if you want to meet with staff and they can give you information, you know, not just on distances. You say the regulation was changed, but also a step-by-step description of, say, a propo nent coming in. What does he do? What does the Technical Review Comm ittee do? The municipality, what is their responsibili ty? What is the responsibility of Conservation? We will

May 3, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 39 try to describe that to you in a step-by-step way so that it will be easier for you to explain to your constituents. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for that. I am happy to meet with one of his staff members. I am just waving in front of you a stack of letters that I have on the hog issue. It is a major issue in that corner of the province. I really do need to know when the law was changed and what the changes were, because this seems to be the largest part of the dispute.

Were the permits granted under the wire or were they not granted under the wire? So if I am understood on that, I thank you very much for that help. I just have one more issue that is confusing to us. That is on the Manitoba Product Stewardship board. Does that come under your purview? I have a letter here signed by Darlene Augustine [phonetic] and Karen Neilson [phonetic] that says that the Earthbound environmental, which, I think, is a consult ation organization, has supplied inf ormation to the Manitoba Product Stewardship board that is grossly inadequate and outdated.

I am wondering who the Earthbound environmental organization is that is the group consulted by the Manitoba Product Stewardship board. Mr. Lathlin: I belie ve the group that the member is referring to is a private consulting group. Since I have been here, I have never had any dealings with them, so I am not able to, with any certainty, say who they are. All I can say is I believe they are a private consulting company. * (16:10 ) Mr.

Jim Penner: I guess members opposite, as we say in the House, will find what I am going to say now very humorous, but as a grocer for 36 years, I felt lik e everything we did was collec ting taxes. When this last tax came on, this environmental tax which I know you did not put on, we had to change equipment at a cost of a million dollars because we could not add another tax to our cash registers. It was very disturbing to me because it affects what it costs the consumers to pay for their groceries. You had to add that cost of change-over to the price of the groceries.

Customers pay for everything and they end up paying for everything. Anyway, one of the things I was disturbed about was that the environmental tax was only done on beverage containers. I think that was kind of unfair, but I guess we cannot change that. I do not know how the tax came about, but what I get to hear from time to time is that there is a lot of money being collec ted each year under the Manitoba Product Stewardship board's tax, or levy they used to call it. I think it is a tax. Do you know how much money comes into the tax coffers or the levy coffers through this two-cent levy? Mr.

Lathlin: I am really glad that the member has raised that because I did not run a grocery store, so I did not have to worry about putting in an additional button for my machine to accom modate the-it is called a levy. It is not really a tax. That is what I was told when I was in Opposition. My criticism of the program at the time was, I go into a store, the IGA store on the reserve in The Pas to buy a Pepsi and the grocer, our own grocer-mind you, we own the store, the Band does, and two cents extra, and what for?

Well, the Government is collec ting two cents now for every bottle that we sell you, and that will go to a bank account that will help cover the cost of recycling. I thought, well, that is a good idea, except I kept asking around town and the reserve to see whether we had a recycling centre, and I was told, no, we do not have one. Then I thought, well, it is not a good idea after all because if I pay two cents on the reserve, I want something to come back to The Pas community because, after all, everybody pays two cents there.

So, when I was looking through the annual report at the time, I indeed found out that most of the recycling activity that was done, carried out by the Manitoba Product Stewardship Corporation, was in those areas, I guess, where it was convenient to set up a recycling centre. If you set up a recycling centre up North, the cost of transporting the recyclable materials to coll ection depots or recycling centres in Winnipeg was, I guess, expensive. Apparently, that is what prohibited some of the communities

1240 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 200 1 up North to apply for that program because it was just too much, too expensive to get into. So what we have done since we have been in Government is to try to apply the program throughout the province. We have actu ally expanded the program northward a little bit. There are now major northern centres, places like Thompson, Flin Flon and The Pas. They have centres now. They have catchment areas. It is not just the town of The Pas. For example, the catchment area would include Moose Lake, Cormorant, Grand Rapids, Easterville, the reserve where I come from.

So I think that is a good way to go. You are asking me how much money is colle cted. In 2000-200 1, about $6.6 milli on was coll ected, and for that year about $7.6 million was spent, and that money is used for communities to collect recyclables, and only certain recyclables, by the way. That is another criticism or shortcoming of the program, I guess. They collect so many tonnes of material. They is shipped to Winnipeg and then they get paid by the Product Stewardship Corporation so much per tonne after they get it into Winnipeg. So that is what the money is used for.

The idea, of course, is to divert all this material from going to landfill sites and fill ing up our landfill sites prematurely. I just want to give you an example in terms of funding-and it is mostly municipalities that are setting up these recycling programs. In Winnipeg, the corporation pays $12 8 per tonne of recyclables. For outside of Winnipeg, they pay $15 2 per tonne. Northern communities can receive an additional $40 per tonne to subsidize the freight costs of getting their materials to the south. Mr. Jim Penner: I had a little background and experience, Mr.

Chairman, with recycling because when Eastman Recycling was started in Steinbach, Loewen millw ork and Penner Foods put up 50-50 the seed cash to start Eastman Recycling, so we could start the property, buy the land and buy the building to get this going. It is being run by the mentally handicapped, and I have a mentally handicapped son who works in that vicinity. Eastman Recycling also picks up in Blu menort and La Broquerie and St. Pierre and Klee feld and Grunthal, all around that area.

In that Eastman health region there are 52,000 people, and a good part of that is covered by Eastman Recycling, so Steinbach is a good employer of the mental ly handicapped and has a good operation of recycling. But it seems to me that there are some leaks in the system that involve consultation groups. I do not know who Earthbound Environmental is, but I understand they get a fair chunk of money. I know the City of Steinbach gets $1 5,000 out of the Eastman Recycling all otment, and I do not know why. Now that we have this recycling thing in Manitoba-and I am not really just totally against it.

I was disturbed as a business person at the cost that it was to me, but, obviously, I wanted it there or I would not have contributed to the land and the building, and I have a son who is involved. So I think it is a worthwhile thing. I am not saying it is il legitimate. I do not like to be a tax coll ector, but if that is what I am, that is what I will be as long as I am in business. But as far as I am concerned, the fact that we spent a milli on dollars more than what we took in, that might not be necessary.

In fact, the reason for part of that milli on dollars is the catchment system which I think is going to pay off in the future, but it cost quite a bit. In the Falcon Lake-Whiteshell area, there is a central col lection catchment area right now for all of the surrounding communities, and I think it is very effective. It is very clean. It is very neat. I use it and it is very well run, but these are new facili ties and they have been created, and I am sure that the cost of creating them was partly in there.

Would it be possible for myself who has been very interested in recycling and in conservation and the environment to get a copy of the breakdown of the financial statement of the Manitoba Product Stewardship board? Mr. Lathlin: I think the best place to get that information is in an annual report. That is where I got all my information. It is pretty complete. I can give you a copy of the latest annual report, or if you want, I can give you maybe even a year before, so that you can compare. * (1 6:20)

May 3, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1241 Mr. Jim Penner: I think that might be the most helpful, is to get factual information instead of hearsay and innuendo that often arouses suspicions. I think that the key issue with southeast Manitoba is the drainage issue, and I think one of the main problems with drainage is that the drains are pl ugged, but at the same time I think that our comer of the province is very cle an, Mr. Mini ster, because of the activities at Eastman Recycling and the industriousness of the citizens.

But being a rapidly developing comer of the province, we really do need some review of our drainage systems and some co operation between the municipalities. I would very much encourage, if possible, that if it is not included in this Budget that it be taken into consideration, because I know that people do not mind contributing tax dollars. I think they are very substantial. When I look at the assessments in Manitoba, the tax dollars coming out of the southeast are probably the highest per acre. At the same time, we do not ask for a lot.

I think the average amount of money we get for health care is $660 per capita, and I think western Manitoba is $2,300 per capita per person. We get the least amount of money in the province. Mind you, as I said in my address to the Budget Speech, we do not feel that throwing money at issues is going to solve problems even in recycling or whether it is health care. We need money, yes, we need money and maybe we are underf unded in the southeast, but what we need is really good management and examination and studies and make sure that we are getting the bang for the buck.

I would like to encourage you, once more, to take special note of our drainage problems in the southeast, and I thank you. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I think I probably answered partially, in the previous question, the member's question. I would just lik e reiterate it. The direction that I had given to my staff was because I do not anticipate certainly next year we will go for additional funding.

I think our Government and our Cabinet, Treasury Board, recognizes the fact that the amount of new money that my department received this year is not nearly enough, it is not adequate, but everybody did the best they could. I know there is an understanding in our Government that there needs to be more money all ocated for drainage.

So, given the very scarce resources that I have with respect to funding drainage issues or addressing drainage issues, I have asked my staff that the five-year capital plan that we have for water-I have two budgets; one is a five-year capital plan that outlines what area we are going to spend and what location, drainage, ditches. As I said earlier, in our department there is $1 million for drainage. In Intergovernmental Aff airs there is a further half a milli on dollars that the two departments are going to get together and see where we can spend in the most strategic way that we can come up with.

I have told my staff, let us not spend money in that area if it is not going to have a positive effect for a bigger area. In other words, if that community screams at me the most and if I spend money there it will only have a positive effect for that little area and nothing else. What I would like to do, because of the scarce resources, I want to spend money in that area where it will have an effect for that community for sure, but it will have a positive effect for communities around the area like downstream, upstream and so on. I do not know if that is achievable, but that is what we are trying to do.

I have also asked our staff for us to review once more this five-year capital plan with a view to streamlining it more, so that we spend money where it is needed the most. Mr. Maguire: The minister mentioned the Budget in regard to drainage, the milli on dollars that has been announced, that was part of the Budget documentation. He has indicated that there is another $500,000 in Intergovernmental Affairs. Mr.

Lathlin: I should indicate to the member that when I say $1. 5 mil lion, I want him to understand that only $1 million of that is in my direct control; $500,000 is in the shop of the Intergovernmental Aff airs minister. For the most part, that $500,000 is, I believe, earmarked for conservation district work. Conservation districts are involved in various water management projects anyway. In my capital budget, we have a total of just about $5 mil lion, but when you take away the non-drainage-related expenditures, we have

12 42 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 200 1 $1 milli on. Now that is capital. I have another budget that is about $4 milli on, and that is what I call the maintenance budget. I was trying to determine the other day when I was meeting with my staff, because in my earlier life in another life where I worked the definition of "capital" was "new asset." You are going in. You are building a new facili ty, so therefore that becomes a capital project. In Conservation, when we are talking about drainage capital we are not really talking about digging new ditches or new waterways.

What we are talking about is really maintenance, where trees have grown in ditches, cattails, tall grass, wil lows, where it is going to require major work. In Conservation that is deemed to be a capital project. The maintenance

part is where we have about $4 mil lion, and that money is earmarked for where you need a backhoe, a small piece of equipment, you need a backhoe to go in and unplug cul verts or clean up the bottom of the drainage ditch. That is apparently maintenance. To me, when I look at both, it is really maintenance work that we are doing. We are not set up to, at least financially, go and dig up a whole bunch of new drainage ditches. We are simply maintaining what is there now. * (1 6:30 ) Mr. Maguire: That was my understanding, that most of that money would be going to maintenance.

The minister has indicated that the $4 mill ion would be used for maintenance. I believe in the Budget, though, there was $1 million to be used for drainage. My question is to the minister: Is that the million dollars or are we talking about two different mill ion-dollar packages here?

The one I was referring to, that I understood in the Budget that came out for drainage was for the cleaning of drains and that sort of thing, that there were funds put in this Budget for the maintenance, I guess if you want to put that way, of drainage systems that are already in place, certainly not for the drainage of new systems or the construction rather of new drainage ditches. Mr. Latblin: Yes. I did not want to go that way because when I first looked at it it was confusing, just by the definition. We are not acquiring a new asset.

Those ditches are already there, but I guess the way it is differentiated is the amount of work that is going to be needed to fix this drainage. Let me give you an example of what we do. The water maintenance activities that are carried out by our regional engineering people and by branch staff, this activity, I guess, is divided or subdivided into three categories: one is water on occasion, then there is flood damage reduction, and then there is waterway maintenance, which includes, of course, associated labour costs. All the regions operate dams, as directed by the branch.

When I say branch, I mean the Water branch inclu ding maintaining the facilities. Flood damage reduction activities mitigate flood damages and maintenance of such structures and equipment to ensure future service to the public. Water maintenance activities maintain provincial waterways and waterway crossings, in this case providing service primarily to the agricult ural sector. The other water maintenance activities that are carried out in this branch is spring snow surveys, addressing litig ation matters, special studies for waterway maintenance, Mr.

Chairperson, such as some of the things we have been talking about for the last couple of days, or other infrastructure projects, including the development of provincial standards and monitoring the safety of provincial dams. Other waterways issues identified by municipalities are addressed through a contingency fund that is set aside for those purposes.

So I guess if I were to put it in a nutshell, minor work required to clean up drainage ditches, that could be called maintenance, but if we are to go and do a major piece of work in a drainage ditch, maybe strengthening the banks or dredging or any major work like that, that would be called capital. When I say capital, that is where we have that $1 milli on in Conservation and $500,000 in Intergovernmental Affairs. The $4-million maintenance is also housed in Conservation and the activities for maintenance I just read out.

May 3, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 43 Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask my question then again maybe in another way.

I understand that those dollars are there for those projects, that the $4 million will be for maintenance then, regular maintenance, that type of area, that there may be $500,000 in Intergovernmental Af fairs that is used for capital as described by the minister, but I understand it is also there to do work for development of conservation districts or conservation districts mainly in that whole area, as opposed to probably the dredging or bank support that the minister has referred to here. The $1 milli on then that was targeted in the Budget or earmarked is there for capital, as well, under Conservation.

Is there then a separate $1 mill ion? Because it was my understanding that there was $1 milli on earmarked in the Budget for cleaning of drains and that sort of thing, for removal of brush and those types of items from present drains that are already there or present creek bottoms or not necessarily even drains. Was there a program like that then announced in the Budget? It was our understand ing that there was. * (1 6:40) Mr. Lathlin: The capital budget that I was talking about is comprised of $4.9 mill ion, the capital. We also have a maintenance budget.

I think that one is about $4 mil lion, maintenance budget $4 million, capital budget $4.9 milli on. Now what we have is a five-year capital plan. If we were to maintain the budget level of 4.9, we have a list of projects that we want to do for the next five years. Some of them are over a one, two, three period. They are phased in. For example, just to give you an idea, the capital that I am talking about in 200 1 -2002 provincial waterway crossings, I am told that it is not just one crossing.

Okay, so provincial waterway crossings, for example, in 200 1 -2002, according to our capital plan here, our five-year plan, on the $4.5 million a year we are planning to spend $775,000 this year for provincial waterway crossings. I am told that there are 1 0-plus crossings that we are talking about, for a budget of $775,000. I will give you another example. The Buffalo Drain for 200 1 -2002, we are planning to spend $300,000 and then in 2003, 2004, 2005, we are projecting to spend about $600,000 a year.

In other words, for Buffalo Drain, by the time we get done in 2005-2006, we will have spent $2. 1 mil lion, and that is over four years. Netley Creek, same thing there. This year we are proposing to spend $500,000, and then in 2003, 2004, 2005, we are proposing to spend a half a million dollars a year for each of those fiscal years. By the time we get done in 2005- 2006, for Netley Creek, we will have spent $2 million to do that work. In other words, what I am trying to point out here is for 200 1 -2002 just for those two projects this year, we are going to spend $800,000.

And here I am talking about $1 million capital in Conservation. Well, already we are proposing to spend $800,000 just on those two projects. Mr. Maguire: Yes, I understand there is no end to where the money can go, Mr. Chairman. I would like to reiterate just so that I am clear then. A year ago in Estimates, I know some of the constituents in my own particular area, and I had calls from other areas of the province.

We were wondering if there were going to be dollars in the Conservation budget in the future or if were there ways that dollars could be found for the maintenance of some of the present creek bottoms and that sort of thing that are becoming clogged with trees that have fallen in or silt that has been built in and that sort of thing. I guess that is what I was asking the minister. It was my understanding that there were some dollars in the Budget, a milli on dollars.

I know it does not go far in regard to even doing that, but when I heard that in the Budget, I was under the understanding that there would be some funds at least, and the milli on dolla rs was a number that we thought we heard in the Budget for cl earing brush and trees and that sort of thing out of present drains so that they could cause less backup and flooding in some particular areas. Mr. Lathlin: The kind of work that the member is describing, the $4-mill ion maintenance budget

1244 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 200 1 that I referred to earlier, that is what that is geared for. Mr. Maguire: Can the minis ter give me or give us any indication then, have they decided on where those proje cts will be and can he give me any indication of where the main maintenance, that $4 million will be targeted for then this year? Mr. Lathlin : In the department I do not have a breakdown of what each region will be spending.

The funds are alloca ted to the different regions, and they set their priorities because, for example, in the west region, they probably have a wish list and then they probably have a priority list and then sooner or later once this process is finished, then they are going to have to put things on paper and dispatch their workers out to go and imple ment their plans. What I can do, though, is we can for example in the west region, ask that regional of fice to provide me with a list of activities that they are contemplating on doing this summer with respect to cleaning up and stuff like that. Mr.

Maguire: That would be hel pful if the minister could provide me with that for the different regions of Manitoba; that would certainly be helpful looking at what their priority list would be. I know the group that came forward was the R.M. of Pipestone I think that was talking to me a year ago.

I mentioned it to the minister in these Estimates a year ago and there is a lot of Dutch elm and that sort of thing and a number of older trees have fallen into some of those creeks, not just the Pipestone Creek but others, and I was wondering if the minister could tell me if any of those funds were targeted for that particular location. Mr. Lathlin:

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-24b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 24b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	14446eee72a3623d9b7ec48371fa85fd1e566ba1

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).