Manitoba Hansard — 29 March 1962 (Sitting 46, 26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-46

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Le gislat ive Ass em bly Of Man i to ba DEBATES and PROCEED INGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol. Vll No. 46 2:30 p.m . Thursday, March 29, 1962. 5th Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans, Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o'clock, Thursday, March 29th, 1962. Opening Prayer by Mr. Speak er. MR. SPEAKER: Presen ting Petititi ons. Reading and Rece iving Petitio ns. Prese nting Reports by Standing and S!Jecial Committee s. Notices of Motion. Introduction of Bills . The Hon ourable the Acting Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. JOHN THOMPSON, Q. C. (Acting Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Virden) introduced Bill No. 105,.

An Act to am end The Local Government Districts Act. MR. SPEAKER: Before I call the Orders of the Day, I should like to introduce to mem bers of the Legisla tive Asse mbly three schools we have in the gallery this after noon. The first one is .Brant School from Argyle and this school has 32 pupils with it this afte rnoon from Grade s VII and VIIT under the guidance of their teacher, Mrs. Fle tche r. The school is situa ted in Rockwood-Iberville and represent ed by the Honourable the :Minister of Agriculture.

We also have a school, Mapleton School, 50 pupils , Grades V to VIII under the guidance of their teach ers, Mr . L. Lefteruk and Mrs. W. S. Patterson. This school is from Se lkirk constituency and ably represe nted by the Honourable Member, Mr. Hillhouse. We also have Churchill High School, 20 pupils, Grade IX, under the guidance of their teach er, Miss F. Neit hercut. .This school is located in Os borne constituency and is ably re prese nted by the Honourable Mr. Baile y.

I might say that we welcome the visits of the three schools this afte rnoon and, while they look down on the members of the Legis lature , they are , at first hand, witne ssing democra cy at work. We would hope that they would take away favourable considera tions of the work that is being done in this Chamber. · Orde rs of the Day. ·J MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster) : Mr. Speak er, I would like to direct a ques tion to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture . If he cannot give me the information now, let him take it as notice of enqu iry.

Can he tell the House and mysel f the number of abandone d farms in the Province of Manitoba -- that is number one -- and who, what department are now able to tell us whe the r those farms can either be sold or rese ttled. In other words, in whose nam e are the abandoned farms now. Are they abandoned and the municipality holds it for payment of taxes , or are they abandoned in such a way that the province has a right to reset tle if and when proper people wanted to come in and take them over at a price or otherwise. HON. GEO. HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture and Conse rvation) (Rockwood-Ibervill e): Mr.

Spe ake r, it would all depend on wbether the lands were municipal lands or whether they were Crown lands. If an owner abandoned Crown lands, the land would revert to the Crown. In the case of patented lands or municipal lands and the owner abandons the m, they'd revert to the municipality. I'm sorry I can't tell the honourable member what the numbers of abandoned farms would be in the province. I haven't any idea. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste . Rose): Mr. Speak er, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture.

Some days ago he indicated that he was negotiating with the federal government with regard to assistance in the cost of transporting seed oats and feed grains. Has he completed his negotiations yet, or can he re port on the progre ss? MR. HUTTON: Yes . We have not yet announced the program but the federal government has announced that they are prepared to share in the cost of the freight transportation assist ance program on seed oats .

We announced our policy with regard to these costs in respect to trucking and they are prepared to share in this , but the details of their program are a little diffe rent than ours and we are not quite sure yet just how they will apply. The fede ral govern ment has said that they will share half of the costs of transportation on mileage over 25 miles, but in no case will they go beyond 75% of the total freight costs. Now you'll recall that whe n I announced Manitoba's program in respect of freight costs March 29th, 1962 Page 1183

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd. ) ..... by truck, the minimum mileage was 50 -- or the deductible mileage · was 50 -- and that we would pay 5� per ton mile to a maximum of $9. 00. Now the reason for this disparity is , of course , that the federal participation will apply to Saskatchewan as well, and in Saskatchewan they are paying 4� per ton mile to a maximum of $12. 00. Now in Manitoba we have shorter distances to deal with and so we feel that our program is better suited to our spec ific conditions .

The federal government has tried, I guess, to come up with a program which can be applied with equally good results to both Saskatchewan and Manitoba. This is , in essence, what their assistance amounts to, and when we have had an opportunity to apply it to Manitoba conditions, we will be announcing a further program with respect to rail freig ht. MR. MOLGA T: Mr. Speaker, did I understand the Minister to say that this applied to seed oats ? Does it also apply to fe ed? oats. MR. HUTTON: I understand, Mr. Speaker, the federal program does not apply to. feed MR.

MOLGAT: Does the provincial program apply to feed oats as well ? MR. HUTTON: Feed and seed. MR. MOLGA T: Will the. program announced by the federal government and that of the . provincial government cover then the transportation of feed and seed, say from Alberta or the United States ? MR. HUTTON: It will apply to seed oats coming in from Alberta but it would not apply to seed oats coming in from the United States. Neither does the Manitoba program. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside) : Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable the Minister pf Agriculture .

Would the explanation that he's just given indicate that the government of the Province of Saskatchewan is less generous towards its families and towards its farmers than the Government of Manitoba? MR. HUTTON: You know, Mr. Speaker , I should jump at this opportunity, but I think in all fairne ss I must say that the problems that Saskatchewan faces are rather dif ferent than the problems that Manitoba faces in these circums tances, as in other circumstances.

I would hope that the New De mocratic Party would extend the same understanding to this government, as we have extended to their represe ntatives i� Saskatchewan, when we introduce programs which may appear on the surface to be less charitable than the ones in our sister province. MR. CAMPB ELL: ........ . . Mr. Speaker, would it not indicate though that if the need is greater in Saskatchewan, then the generosity of the government should be greater also ? MR. PETER WAGNER (Fisher) : Did I hear the Agriculture Minister say correctly that in Manitoba it's $9 .0 0 maximum and in Saskatchewan it's $12. 00? MR. E. R.

SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day? I'd like to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he thinks that the Government of Saskatchewan is be ing just as slow with regard to the problem as the for mer administration in Manitoba was with regard to the i950 flood and its problems. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Committee of Supply. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I believe we have the second reading of Bill No. 65 respec ting the Hospital Insurance Services before the Comm ittee of Sup· ply. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Health. HON.

GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Health) (Gimli) presented Bill No. 65,

An Act respecting Insurance of Residents of the Province against the Costs of the Provision of Hospi tal Services, for seco nd reading. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, this is a rather large bill and I feel I should re view the principles embodied in this bill.

The reason it is so large is that, in bringing about the changes with respect to dependents and a few other changes which we thought we should in corporate after a few years' experience, that the Legislative Counsel felt that it was probably more diff icult to amend the former Act than to rewrite it and recomm ended that this rewrite be brought about, largely because he had to substitute the word "com missi on" for "commis sioner" , for example, about a hundred times in the bill and also because of the deletion of that

section of the bill that dealt with the former Manitoba Hospital Council which was amended in The Department of Health Act. This bill that is before us is largely a rewrite of the Act as it Page 1184 March 29 th, 1962

(Mr. Johnson, (Gim li) , cont'd .) ..... is at the present time, but certain definite policy changes have been incorporated in this bill and I would like to review, at this time , the prin ciple of these changes with the House. The definition of "dependent" is broadened to include students up to the age of 21 years, and will be interpreted in that a person turning 21 during a benefit period is covered to the end of that period.

The way this definition of dependency reads, for the clarification of the House, it means that a man or woman is still a dependent if attending a school of learning such as high school -- secondary school rather, university and other schools . It also ma kes reference in this bill to the fact that should some dispute arise as to the validity of the meaning of a school of learni1).g, that this can be referred to the Minister. I think this has come up in drafting of the bill, in that it is meant to include all those bona fide students in various schools and, in many cases, certain trade schools in the province.

Now it also points out that if marri ed, the wife-and child are on the dependency exemption and, for other than students, a dependent age<:I 19 is covered now as is his wife. In the previous bill it excluded the 19-year old if he had a spouse -- or it excluded his spouse -- but this is included in this bill. The reference to the approval of a school of learning by the Minister, I should say, is just to make sure that, if there is any doubt in the minds of the commis sion, they can refer the mat ter to the Minister.

This is the largest policy change in this rewrite -- that is this broadening of the term "depen dent" for these students. There's also a change that has been battered around a bit since the plan came into opera tion, and that's the three-month waiting period. A person moving from one province to another, for example , must register one month prior to the expiration of his three-months waiting period granted by a neighbouring province. This brings us into uniformity across Canada and is, I think, a generous provision. There is clarification of that

section of this Act dealing with monies contributed by the Government of Canada for the purposes under this Act. It has been practised, and this is really a

section legalizing the fact that monies deposited with the Provincial Treasurer will be placed in a special account in the Consolidated Fund to be requisitioned by the Hospital Com mission. This has really been in practice since the Act first came into being but, as I say , this legalizes and clarifies the matter. It also states that the Provincial Treasurer ma y invest, on behalf of the com mission, money not immediately required for expenditures. This is a similar provision with respect to the Compensation Board funds and others . There is another new

section here that, members may note, says that the Minister of Municipal Affairs ma y act as a guaranteeing municipality or agency. Now it has been unof ficially carried out since the Act came into being, in that the contribution from the Provincial Treasury covered the costs of people in unorganized territories, for example , but the effect of this change gives the Minister the authority to pay premiums on behalf of people who are not legal residents of a municipality. There is another

section in here dealing with the placement of certain liens which the House, I am sure, will be interested in. The Manitoba municipalities, by resolution, have asked for permission to institute a lien in those cases of hardship in their municipality where they are reluctant to add taxes in cases of certain extreme hardship. For example , an elderly gentleman incapable of managing his own affairs, instead of adding his premium to his taxes each year , and imposing an immediate hardship upon him , they could, in certain cases, place a lien against his property.

The amount of the lien that they placed against it wou1d only be collectible, of course, on the sale or death of the owner. Now as I say, this was requested by the municipalities. Much consideration was given to this particular deviation, but, in practice, it can be of great value to the many guaranteeing municipalities; and in view of the tremendous co-operation and spirit with which they have conducted their share of the responsibilities under this plan, we have had this placed in this bill. A new

section has been added, of course , to allow the commi ssion authority to write off uncollectable premiums where the circumstances of the individual just make it impossible to collect, and it will help with the administration of the plan. There is certain other changes in

Section 21 dealing with the Executive Director of the Com mission, as contemplated. The Director, in accordance with policies established by the commission, will be responsible for reviewing the budgets and will recom mend rates of March 29th, 1962 Page 1185

(Mr. Johnson (Gimli) , cont1d. ) ....• payments to hospitals, rather than the present Hospital Budget Committee as was set out in the old Act. The Executive Director will .submit the re commended rates to the commission for approval, and the Minister, it says, will be notified of the approved rates. I think this should be a step forward in the administration of this large utility. There is another

section which clarifies that officers of a corporation, jointly are liable with the corporation when premiums are not remitted by the corporation. This is in instances where, for example, companies go bankrupt. It more or less states that they hold, individually and jointly with the corporation, the responsibility in this area, in the enforcement of the Act and so on. The Attorney-General's Department thought this was necessary. In

Section 28 of the Act, this is the legal

section dealing with Third Party Liability. As the honourable members should know --or may not be aware --the federal government makes it a condition of agreement insuring under hospitalization that, in cases of Third Party Liability, that the provinces do make an effort to collect where people are insured. This has been a tricky legal

section and there is a further amendment in the

seCtion this year which says: "A person bringing action against a third party must include the cost of insured services . ... Pre viously, he could bring action excluding hospital claims, and this again is requested for legal

interpretation. This matter could be dealt with more fully at Law. Am endments, because I would like the legal advisers to the plan to explain this more fully to the committee at that time. Finally, the commission, with the approval of the Lieutenant"'-Governor-in-Council, will be able to make grants for the cost of out-patient care in the three teaching hospitals. This will ease administration and provide for better control. At the present time the hospital plan, in setting the budgets for the teaching hospitals, is the agency which determines what special grants should be made to the teaching hospitals.

Rather than coming back to the Health Depart ment and back again, we thought they could set these figures and just put it right in the Act. There is another

section which says: "In the case of these three teaching hospitals, if a muni cipality doesn't pay a grant in respect of these services, that they pay for non-insured services at rates approved by the commission." This has really been practised for many years but, in incorporating and rewriting the Act, it was felt advisable to put this in. Then again in this Act, there is reference made tO the establishment, of course, of the Manitoba Hospital Commission who will be establishing the hospital rates; and there is a sec tion here dealing with their. terms of reference.

The Commission is the appeal body and the policy that exists at the present time is really unchanged, except that the Executive Director and his staff will set the rates; refer them to the Qommission and the Com mission will approve these rates; notify the Minister; and, of course, it's understood that there is always recourse to appeal to the Minister. There is another

section that deals with the power duties of the commissioner, which are being transferred to the commission and, of course, this is throughout the bill. A new

section gives the Commission the authority to enter into agreements with hospitals to act as the trus-. tee for the hospitals in respect to the interest and principal of debenture issues. The hospital, . in other words, may assign funds from their regular payments from the plan to be held in trust for the repayment of debentures; interest and capital as they fall due, and I've made reference to this in introducing some of the companion bills to this particular Act. I think in

summary, Mr. Speaker, that these outline, in general terms, each of the new sections which appear in this Act and indicate the main policy changes. I would summarize in saying these are largely with respect to dependency and its definition; the request of the muni cipalities re a lien; the fact that monies not immediately required by the commission shall be deposited with the Treasurer in a special account; the Executive Director setting the rates; shoring up of the legal provisions re Third Party Liability; and the terms of reference of the Hospital Commission. MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (SeLltirk): Mr.

Speaker , I do not intend to oppose the second reading of this bill, _but I would like to give notice to the Minister that I do intend to introduce an amendm ent, in Law Amendments, changing the definition of the dependent to con form to that in The Income Tax Act. I also intend to introduce a further amendment exempting a lOO% war disability pensioner from liability of paying premiums under the scheme. To me, Page 1186 March 29th, 1962

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd. ) ..... it seems absurd that a war disability pensioner gets free hos pitalization at Deer Lodge and still has to pay a premium under the MHSP. Another matter which I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister, and that deals with an apparent inconsistency in this Act with The Municipal Act. Under the Act that's before us, the definition of "dependent" is diff erent to the definition of a "dependent" in The Municipal Act.

Where a person under the age of 21 years of age fail s to pay a hospital premium under this Act and that person does not come within the definition of a dependent in this Act, the only reme dy that a municipality has against that person is to sue for the recovery of the premium paid, but if the municipality wishes not to pay the premiums and pay the hospital account and that perso.n happens to be under 21, they have a remedy under The Municipal Act against that person's parents. They can file a lien against the lands owned by that person. Now it seems to me, Mr.

Speaker , that that is an inconsis tency between the two Acts and I · think it should be corrected. MR. J • . M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour- able Member from Brok enhead, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Com mittee of Supply, MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, se conded by the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resource s, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the mo tion carried and the House reso lved itself into a Com mittee of Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR. CHAffiMAN: Department IX - - Item 7, Mines Branch. HON. C. H. WITNEY (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Flin Flon): Mr. Chair- man, .............. I was asked to give some fi gures of the number of inspections that we have made of the various mines in the province .

The inspections that we made during the past year cover the underground workings and the surface plant, the mine rescue stations, the fire protection facilitie s, the dust samplings and ventilation. The mine and plant are on each trip covered generally. In addition, a complete check on one or severa l specific operations is made each time. For example , hoisting procedures, tramming, fire protection, handling and the use of explosives.

The total number of inspections that were made by the Mines Branch personnel are as fo llows: The International Nickel Com pany -- the Thompson Mine, 10 ; The Pipe Lake Mine or Ospwagan Mine, 7; Sherritt-Gordon Mines Limited, Lynn Lake, 10, Hud son Bay Mining and Sme lting Comp any, Flin Flon, 9; The Hudson Bay Mining and Sm elting Company in the Snow Lake area, 12; The San Antonio Gold Mines Limited at Bissett, 16; The Western Gypsum Products Limited at Am aranth, 5; The Chemalloy Mine at Bernic Lake, 3.

There are in addition to the inspections which are made by the Department of Public Health for ventilation, and such items as dermatitis and also the silicosis survey which is made annually by the Department of Health . . HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commer ce) (Fort Rouge) : Mr. Chair man, some time ago I think the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition asked for inf orm ation concerning the death of one man and injury of another and the amount of compens ation that had been affo rded. The following is the inf ormation.

Michael Prokupchuk died on September 11th, 196 1, as the result of injuries subs tained on August 23rd, 196 1. The widow received $3, 000 from the Group Insurance Plan; the Workmen's Comp ensation Board paid the widow the sum of $400 .0 0 on Nove mber lOth, 1961; and the widow is in receipt of a life time pension of $75 .0 0 a month and receives an additional amount of $35. 00 a month until the daugher reached the age of 18 on March lOth, 1962.

During the period August 23rd, 1961 until September 11th, 196 1, the Workmen's Compensation Board paid out the sum of $1,7 38. 45 for hospital expenses and medical service s. From the time of his injury until his death, the Department of Public Works paid out the following: Working time, $117 . 60; Truck, $42. 00; House Trailer, $10. 50; Vacation Pay 1960-6 1, September payroll, $302 .4 0; Vacation Pay 1961-62, September pay roll, $100. 80; Pension Refund, $843.8 9 less tax of $61. 00. Ronald Cox was injured on August 23rd, 196 1.

During the fi rst 15 weeks while hospital ized, his wife has received $6 7.5 0 per week from the Workmen's Compens ation Board. This March 29 th, 1962 Page 1187

(Mr. Evans , cont•d. ) ••••. amount increases to $72. 00 per week after 13 weeks. To date for hospitalization, nursing and medical services, the Workmen's Compensation Board has paid out $16, 025. 50. Application has been made under the Disability Benefit Clause of the Group Insurance Plan to have Mrs. Cox's $3;0 00 policy continued in force without the payment, of further premiums. The Department of Public Works made the following payments: Working time, $81. 20; Car, $42. 00; Vacation Pay 1960- 61, January 1st to 15th, '62 Payroll, $208. 80. MR. MOLGA T: Mr.

Chairman, I want to thank the Minister for the information he pro vided. I presume the $75 .0 0 pension per month to Mrs. Prokupchuk will be a lifetime payment. MR. EVANS: That's my own assumption. I am sorry I have no independent information on it. If there are further inquiries that you would like to make, I'll be glad to get the infor mation. I assume so, but then I am not the authority. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 57. MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, under Lands Branch, I am not too happy and I believe the Minister can give me an explanation for it.

On page 48 under the first item, Land Sales, "the demand for Crown Lands continues to decline. This can be attributed to two factors. First, lack of land suitable for general farming. Second, farmers find it more economical to rent than to purchase additional pasture units" -- and then it describes the amounts. It seems to me that, according to this report, the Minister pr the government says that the farmers do not want to purchase land; it's more feasible for them to rent it and lease it.

Now I have complaints upon complaints in letters, on which I approached the Minister at times, and I have a specific one letter where the farmers are willing to go out and circulate a petition, and they are sure that they would get lOO% that would rather buy the land than lease it, because when it's contiguous to their land or across the road, is it not better to have your own land than lease it? By leasing you take it on the annual basis; you have to pay the rent and on top of it you pay taxes.

As I said the day before, or three days ago, that you make an improve ment -• sure we have that reimbursement of improvement, but you cannot reimburse the far mer into the same value as he owns the land; where it is in such a place where the farmer has his land; he wants to own his land; he wants to do the improvements which he thinks are suitable for him and at what time or at what rate. I would suggest to the government that they should revise their thinking and sell the land to the people rather than lease it or rent it. MR. GRAY: Mr .

Chairman, Question No. 1 to the Honourable Minister iswbether he could tell the House as to the number of acres of Crown land availabie for submarginal settle ment. In other words, with the help of either certain organizations or the government or any other agency, if they choose to settle on this submarginal land in order to get away either from the unemployment relief -- or from some new settlers coming into Canada -- we're not qom pelling them to go there, but supposing they wanted to start, they would have to begin, so to speak, the same as the immigrants picked up in the last 50 yea:r:s -- homesteads.

Is the land available if, with some help, that they could still get a subsistence. Thirdly is, what would be the cost per acre for such land? MR. WITNEY: Mr. Chairman, I assume we're working on the Lands Branch are we? MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, wouldn't it be better in the interest of uniformity, if we are agreeable to passing the Mines Branch now, that we finish with it before we go on to Lands . MR. GRAY: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, because the last speaker called his attention to the Lands Branch so that we have gone through the Mines. I am willing to wait and the ques tion still stands . MR.

CHAffiMAN: Resolution 57 -- Pass? MR. FRO ESE: Mr. Chairman, before we pass 57, I'd like to know in number 7(

c) just what is the money going to go for -- Exploratory and Development Investigations. Along what lines is it going -- to minerals or is it oil or where are we directing our program ? Is it more in regarding to nickel mining or is it oil or what is it? MR. WITNEY: Mr . Chairman, I think the explanation of the increase there was given yesterday and will appear in the Hansard. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolutions 57 and 58 passed. Resolution 59, Lands Branch. MR. WITNEY: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the questions of the Honourable Member for Fisher, we do have; a Lands Board that operates with the members of the Department of Page 1188 March 29th, 1962

(Mr. Witney, cont'd.) ..... Mines and Natural Resources and members of the Department of Agriculture, and every application is considered on its merit, and particularly in relation to the problems of subma rginal land. We do not wish to have people start hopefully on submar ginal land to be disappointed in the years to come. I might mention to the honourable mem ber that the whole problem of land policy is now the subject of a com mittee which we expect to be bringing down its recomme ndations soon, between the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Mines and Natural Resources Lands Branch.

But generally speaking, the Lands Board, if a man can improve his position through acquiring holdings that are adjacent to him, the sales that we have made have been along that line. I think in some respects he is speaking of school lands, which is a special problem. There has not been a sale of school lands , I believe, since 1953 . The Lands Branch is now giving consideration to that matter and to the advisability of having sales of school lands this summer. With respect to the questions of the Honourable Member for Inkster, I'm sorry I can't quite answer his third question.

I think the answer of the inves tigations into the land policy which have been going on now for the past seven months or so and our desire not to have people start on subma rginal land and then in later years be faced with disappointment and the diffi culties that some of them have faced now, people who did land up on subm arginal land, I think that the answer to the question lies there, particularly in the policy which is to be brought down. And his comments will be noted. MR. GRAY: .•. .•.... ; available though? MR. WITNEY: There is submarginal land available, yes. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister wouldn't include the Pasquia area as submar ginal, would he? MR. WITNEY: No. Th� Pasquia area is a special project that has been developed by the PFRA and by the Department of Mines and Natural Resources . That development has now been completed and the project will be opened up to settlers to come in. MR. GRAY: Mr . Chairman, I may be out of order at this stage , but I think it has to do with ·the material -- or settlement. We used to have a Department of Agriculture and Immi gration. Immi gration used to be a very live subject in years gone by.

It's abandoned now and the naine is changed. Which depar tment now is interested, or thinking, or planning about more population for Canada ? -- (Interjection) -- People should sit on their benches and get a smile out of it. I don't know who's handling it. I asked a very valid, fairly intelligent ques tion. MR. ROBLIN: I think, Mr. Chairman, that I should reply to this .

My honourable friend probably is aware that the title "Agriculture and Immigration" has been a misleading one for some time , in that the immi gration part of it was a very small activity indeed, having to do mainly with farm settlement and farm labour problems. Those responsibilities are still in the hands of the Department of Agriculture. MR. ELMAN GUT TORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to suggest .to the Minister that he get together with his colleague the Minister of Municipal Affairs and form a policy regarding lands in unorganized territory and Crown land.

At the present time in unor ganized territory, a farmer who is leasing land is unable to get a long-term lease and, sub sequently, he is afraid to improve on that land, build fences and improve that land, because the following year if he does so, some other person will come along and outbid him for it. I think if the government was to implement a policy whereby they would provide long-term leases on this land, there1d be encouragement for him to improve this land for his farming operation.

At the present time he's afraid to do· so because he may have the land one year and, if he improves on it, then some other farmer may come along and tender on this parti cular piece of land and all the benefits that the other farmer put into it are lost to him. For this reason , all farmers are afraid to improve the land they lease from the government. But if the government were to initiate a program where they could have long-term leases, then the farmers would improve this property and, also, they would find it helpful in their operations. MR. WITNEY: The problem, Mr.

Chairman, is one which is being considered by this Joint Com mittee of Agriculture and Mines and Natural Resources . The Lands Board will be expanded with an addition of the Municipal Affairs Branch -- a member from there to be on the Board and these applications will be considered by that over-all body. March 29th, 1962 Page 1189

MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, if the Lands Branch is so unimportant as explained by the Minister, why spend $150 ,0 00 on it? MR. WITNEY: I assure my honourable member that the Lands Branch is not unimpor tant, Mr. Chairman. If I had given that impression, it is the wrong impression. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that the Minister does not regard this branch as unimportant and I think that he's been giving a very complete amount of information regarding the different branches that we have been dealing with. I'd like to say in regard to 'the Lands Branch that I notice with interest that Mr. F. B.

Chalmers is now the Director of this'branch. I presume that has happened within the last year, has it? Mr. Gyles has retired, I gather by reading the report, and Mr. Chalmers has suc ceeded him. I think this is an excellent appointment because Mr. Chalmers has certainly done, in my opinion, a fine job in the various capacities in which he has been employed.

Inasmuch as one of the interesting sections of this report deals with the Pasquia development, ·which is mentioned as being to some degree experimental and demonstrational, I don't think we could have a better man in charge of the Lands Branch at this time that Mr. Foss Chalmers .

Speaking of the Pasquia Development, I would think that it should be in very capable hands in general, because here we have Foss Chalmers as the Director, who was intimately associa ted with its early development and served for some years with headquarters at The Pas; then we have the Minister of Labour representing The Pas constituency --I'm sure that he's very familiar with and interested in the development there; and then we have the Minister himself coming also from the north country, and coming from the area, that I think will perhaps do more in the future --I should say representing' the area --that I think will perhaps do more in the future towards making the Pasquia Development a success than any other area.

I would guess that the future, the best bet for the future for the Pasquia development would be to supply certain foodstuffs, probably especially dairy products, to that large and growing territory in the north that is represented by the Minister himself. So I would think that the Pasquia develop ment is launched under pretty favourable auspices --excellent director; home-town Minister, representing the immediate constituency; and the Minister of the department representing the area that I think will now, and in the future, contribute sub_stantially to the development of the Pasquia.

Now !. can't let my honourable friend off though without a word of criticism .. I don't think this is his fault, but --and I'm afraid I have to admit that I'm somewhat at fault too --I notice on Page 46 of the report this short paragraph: "During the year, an amendment to The Mechan ics Lien Act requires that all liens affecting property on Crown land be registered in the re cords of the Lands Branch rather than Land Titles Offices.

" I guess my criticism will h11-ve to be directed towards the Honourable the At torney-GEmeral as well as all the other members of the Legislature for letting that amendment pass the House, if it .deserves the criticism that I direct to it. It seems to me that, while I'd have no objection to a registration being made with the Lands Branch, I would think it not right to have no registration in the Land Titles Office.

It seems to me that people traditionally and properly look to the Land Titles Office as the foun tainhead to which they go to get information respecting their titles, and to have even a small · proportion of the lands removed from their control, I would think, is not a good policy. I do not expect my honourable friend to be familiar with the legal intricacies of this matter, but perhaps he might refer it to his colleague the Attorney-General and see if there is· not at least some validity in this argument.

Then I wanted to ask the Honourable the Minister if he would report on the two or three land settlement projects that are mentioned in the annual report of the department. They start under the heading "Land Settlement Projects" on Page 56, and deal with the Birch River Pro ject -- I'd be interested in knowing how that one is coming along; the Washow Bay north of Riverton; and another one whose name escapes me at the moment --it's in the report here, but I. --(Interjection) --I guess it's the Catfish Creek.

I would guess that there's a discre pancy or a mistake on Page 53 of the report dealing with these projects because it mentions that the total number of acres that have been settled during the years has been 97, 782, and then later on in the same pai-agraph it mentions the fact that there are 97, 782 acres unsold in the three projects. Inasmuch as the two figures are identical, I would think it is almost too much of a coincidence that one hasn't been picked up rather than the other. However, I don't Page 1190 March 29th, 1962

(Mr. Campbell, cont1 d. ) ....• know that the inf ormation is too vital, but I would be inte rested to know if that coincidence really has happened, that exactly the same amount re mains unsold or unsettled as has been settled. But the scheme which I am most inter ested in of all is this Pasquia one that I mentioned a moment ago, and I would be very glad to hear how it has worked out since the time of the re port, because the report now is a full year old.

I notice on Page 55 of the report that it is mentioned, regarding the program that will be put into effect there , that a plan -- and I'm quoting now: "A plan of land occupancy under Lease Option Agreement has been designed and submitted to Council for considerat ion , after which, further settlement of the area can be un dertaken .. " I 'presume Council in that connection means Cabine t Council and l wou,ld suppose that that program is now in effect. I would be inte rested in this because, as the report men tions , it is to some extent -- to a large extent -- experimental and demonstr ational .

I have followed the progress that has been made up there with a good deal of interest. I notice that a warning is given, and I think properly there , that prospective settlers should be aware of the hazards that are inhe rent in that area. I notice that they are now of the opinion that the land is nitrogen deficient. I must say that I'm surprised to find this because my own assessment of a good deal of the land in there was it could hardly be exceeded an ywhere in fertility.

I recall the time that there was severe flooding in the area between the two rivers and when later on a channe l was made, some dozen miles west of The Pas to allow the flooded land to drain back into the north one of the two rivers , the Carrot I gather, that when that chan nel was cut, I saw there the de·epest layer of topsoil that I have ever seen any place. I must say that it is even deeper than in the Portage Plains , and I didn 't expect that to happen any place else.

I suppose that's not true over the whole area, but my guess would be that that part just imme diately south of the Carrot River is as fertile as any land that we have in Manitoba. Now I suppose it's the Minister of Labour who really is in a position to boast about the Pasquia development and , personally, I think it has possibilities. I must confe ss that in the early days, though I recognized the quality of the soil, I wondered about the frost-free days.

When: I saw that the frost-free days were so many less than the area down in this part of the country, and particularly around Altona and Win kler and that garden spot there, I wondered if crops would mature, but I found out that the thing that I had forgotten to take into account was the extra hours of sunlight; and those extra hours of sunlight, even in the short distance be tween here and The Pas area, make a remarkable difference in the growing season.

So having seen something of what I thought to be the fertility of the little valley in there, plus the differ ence that the hours of sunlight made, I was quite optimistic about it. If the Minister is in a position to add anythin g to the very excellent report that we already have, I'd be glad to hear it and, in particular , to know if this program that is spoken of as hav ing been recom mended to Cabine t Council is now in effect, and what the program is of course. MR. WITNEY: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member's rem arks give me the oppor · tunity of advising the House that statistically the nort h country has 10 more days of sunshine than the south country, and that is why the northern members have such pleasant dispositions -- at times. With respect to Mr .. Chalmers, I can only echo the compliments that the hon our able me mber has paid to him. Since he has been the Director of Lands he has done a very good job and proven that the choice made was a good one .

I have only some statistics here on the Catfish, Birch R�ver and the Washow Bay, which may ans wer the question of the honourable member. I haven't got the comparative figures for 19 60, but these are up to December 31 st, 1961. The total number of purchasers in the pro jects: in the Birch River there is 161; Catfish Creek is 115; Washow Bay is 118. The total acreage in the project in Birch River, 58, 800 in round figures ; Catfish Creek is 82 , 400 ; and Washow Bay is 49 ,2 00.

The number of veteran settlers that we have in the projects up to December 31 st, 1961: Birch River is 35; Catfish Creek is 39; and Washow Bay is 13. The value of the land sold up to 1961: in Birch River it's 554, 000 in round figures; Catfish Creek is 360, 000; and Washow Bay, 280, 000 . The average sale price per acre was: in Birch River, $15 .1 4; Catfish Creek, $12. 55; and Washow Bay, $1 0.4 6. The number of cancellat ions that we had in 1961 -- just in acreages at any rate -- in the Birch River project it was 59 acres ; in the Catfish Creek area, 329 acres; and in Washow Bay we had none .

Those are the statistics that I have here on those three projects. From the other aspects of them, from what I have \ I �eh 29th, 1962 Page 1191

(Mr. Witney, cont'd. ) .•..• heard from the Lands Branch, they are proceeding satisfactorily . In the Pasquia project, all of the major works have now been completed and I think it's significant that we start to settle in earnest the Pasquia project at the period of time that the north country celebrates its 50th year as being part of Manitoba.

With respect to the Lease Option Agreement, just in order to not make any errors, we struck a Lease Option Agreement and the occupancy of the farm unit under the 21 -year Lease Option Agreement gives the lessee the . right to purchase within 60 days at the end of five years if he carries out the provisions of the lease and if, on the land under lease, he has 160 acres under cultivation and improvements of a value not less than $3,0 00. 00.

During the lease period, the lessee is required to pay an annual rental of one-sixth crop share of grain and other cash field crops for each of the first three years and one-fifth share thereaft er; $2.0 0 per acre for market garden and intertilled crops; $1. 00 per acre for land seeded to grass, clover and alfalfa; and the current annual rental rate for grazing unbroken grass land.

The Agreement for Sale -- the se ttler can purchase land over a 20-year period under the Agreement for Sale at an established price according to the land value, provided the se ttler has 100 acres under cultivation and, in addition, has $3,0 00 inves ted in improvements and is able to make a down payment of 10% of the purchase price. The payment is to be on the basis of 10% down payment, interest payments of 4 1/2% in each of the fi rst three years on the unpaid balance, and the balance of the .payment price to be amor:- tized over a 17 -year period. · We are now receiving applications.

We are settling up the various Lease Options and Agreeme nts for Sale with the present settlers in the project and we are accepting applications fo r the other surveyed lands that we have available at the present time. We have some 400 applications and application forms have been sent out to them and been returned. I think the last figure I had before I came down to estimates were that there were 100 or so had returned their application fo rms.

The applicants will be screened by a board which will comprise of the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Mines and Natural Resources Lands Branch, and we have asked for a representative from the PFRA to be on the board. The terms of the point system that we have is based pretty well on the old VLA Act, with some modifications to adapt itself to the local area.

The Lease Option Agreement and the Agreement for Sale was arrived at afte r negotiations with a farmers' comm ittee that was struck in the area, and while we didn't agree to all that they asked for, we were able to come to an agre ement on the sys.tem that I have just detailed to you here. MR. CAMPBELL: I take it, Mr. Chairman, that either fo rm of agreement is available to the purchaser --or the settler. MR. WITNEY: The Agreement for Sale is available to the settler providing he has. 100 acres under cultivation and improvements on the land of $3,0 00. 00.

With respect to the actual growing conditions , we have received excellent co-operation fro.m the people up there in the various experiments -- fie ld crop experiments and demons trations that have been conducted in the area. To give fu rther details, to obtain inf ormation in respect of crop adaptation and fer tilizer requirements, experiments and demonstrations have been carried out in 1956, '57 , '58 ,. 159, 160 and 161 through the co-operation of provincial and fede ral agriculturists and of co operating far m operators. The results of these projects are providing valuable informa tion.

Recom mendations in respect of crop adaptation and fertilizer requirements, based on the re sults of these experiments, are mimeographed and distributed to all the se ttlers in the project. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I forgot to mention another point that I'd like to ask the Minister. My recollection is that when the Government of Canada and ourselves went into this developmental project that there was some considerable negotiation regarding terms, of course, and is it not a fact that the agreement provides that the federal government is to have control of a portion of the land, roughly 50% ? MR.

WITNEY: The fe deral government, Mr. Chairman, were to have control of who would settle in those particular areas , but they have recently assigned that matter across to this com mittee which is beginning to function now. -- (Interjection) -- The province is in charge completely. . MR. A. H. CORBETT (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, for the edif ication of the Member for Lakeside, I purchased the fi nest cultivated strawberries I think I have ever eaten in my life in the Pasquia project. I also have in ,my cellar at home a couple of bushels of the best potatoes Page 1192 March 29th, 1962

(Mr. Corbett, cont'd. ) ..... I've ever used and are comparable, I think superior , to those produced in Idaho and Maine and all these other places, that are also grown in the Pasquia pro ject. I thought maybe he might be ·interested to know that that land is all right. MR. CAMPB ELL: I am sorry that I didn't hear what the Honourable Member for Swan River said. I regard him as one of the authorities in this House and, because I was engaged in conversation, I didn't get the full import. I won't ask him to repeat it, but I'll read it in Han sard.

In the meantime, I'll take his word for it because I have always found him to be reliable - except on bets about road building. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated a moment ago that there was going. to be a meeting between his department and off icials from the -- that of the Minister of Municipal Affa irs. Could he indicate when this group is going to meet and.will he be able to report back on what they decide? MR. WITNEY: They have already met, Mr.

Chairman, and it was decided there to have a represen tative of the Department of Municipal Affairs to sit on the Land Board and to bring all these applications through that one party. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, are they considering giving long-term leases on this land I spoke about? MR. WITNEY: The committee that I mentioned before that is working on an over-all land policy, including this problem of long-term leases, has been meeting over the past months of the past year and I unders tand that their recomm endations are close at hand. MR.

GUTTOR MSON: Do you expect to hear about the. m before the end of this session? MR. WITNEY: No, I am not sure about before the end of the session, Mr. Chairman, but I would imagine that with inside of a .month -- an extra month -- that they'll be done. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 59 -- pass? MR. NE LSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Chairman, you know that I have always found it rather diffic ult to find a spot where you might talk about historical sites and markers in roadside parks and access roads and recre ational areas and so on and so for th.

I believe it is a fact that cer tain grants come· under Treasury; historical sites under Industry and Com merce; access roads under Public Works; and roadside parks under Mines and Natural Re source s. Now I notice , Mr. Chairman, on Page 55 of the annual report they make a comment: "because of the pending departmental reorganization, by which the development. and manage ment of all provincial parks and recreational areas are to be centralized in a Parks Division of the Forest Service".

Now my question is , what progress is being made in this pending depart mental reorganization to bring all of these items that I have mentioned under one head, so that in future we will know where to discuss them ? MR. FROESE: The item 9(c}, Soil Survey Work and Operation of Pastures , does that in clude com munity pastures? If so, I had a party to see me last fall and they were complaining of losing cattle in these community pastures. They said it was a case of negligence on the part of the p'eople who were in charge to look after them.

I would like to know from the Minister whether there was a shortage of water in these pastures and also whe ther there was a feed shortage? How many cattle were lost in total and for what reason last year? MR. WITNEY: Mr. Chairman, the refe rence in this item to a com munity pasture is the com munity pasture which is operated in the Birch River project by the Department of Mines and Natural Resources .

It's a separate one entirely fr om the com munity pasture program which is operated under the Department of Agriculture, thus I cannot answer the honourable member's questions except, to my knowledge in the pasture which was operated by us, that we did not have any loss of animals. We do have a caretaker there the full time at the time the cattle are in the pasture.

With respect to the question of the Honourable Member for Gladstone, reorganization has been effe cted during the past year and all of the provincial parks and the recre ational areas and the roadside picnic areas do come under the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, but historic sites do not. Up to the present time, it has not been our policy to develop roadside parks in areas other than on Crown land, where Crown land is available adjacent to our high way system. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 59 -- passed. Reso lution 60 - - pass? MR. RUSSE LL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson) : Mr.

March 29th, 1962 Page 1193

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) ..•.. Chairman, I just have a question or two in regards to

Section 60. I believe this would be the

section in which the development of the Grand Beach area would come under. Is that correct? I've had a number of people come to see me, Mr. Chairman, in respect of the develop ment that is taking place at Grand Beach and they are somewhat concerned as to what might likely happen to them, and I refer to the people who have been down in Grand Beach for a con siderable number of years . I think it's formerly called the "Old Campsite", but I don't know if that name is still applicable.

In this particular area, as possibly the Minister is aware, many houses were built rather closely together and they only paid nominal amounts for rental or taxes - no, actually it was rental -- when the property was held by the Canadian National Rail:.. way.

Some of them have expressed fears to me that, with the development at Grand Beach, eventually they may have to pay increased rentals for their properties; and also, that with the development at Grand Beach that they may have to undergo considerable costs in bringing their properties into line with the type of development that is taking place down around the "Old Lagoon". I wonder whether or not the Minister could inform the committee as to what plans, if any, that the government have in respect of the older campsite at Grand Beach. :MR; WITNEY: Mr.

Chairman, to answer the honourable member and the people who came to him, no increase in the rentals of the cottages there is contemplated. As for the policy . with respect to them, we have not formed upon a policy on it yet. We have been meeting with the executive of the Grand Beach Camp Operators' Associ ation. We were recently at an annual meeting and we are keeping close liaison with them. We do not plan to take any overt action and we will continue to liaison with these people so that we do not create any undue hardship on any of these people that the honourable member is speaking of. :MR.

PAULLEY: I would like to point out, Mr. Chairman, and possibly the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources is quite aware of this fact, that a cons iderable num ber of the people concerned are on pension now from the railway and other agencies, and would find it burdensome for any additional costs to them to have at the present time. I sincerely trust and realize, and I think I can make this statement, that I know that the Minister will take the financial status of these people into consideration; but I thought I would raise this particular point for his attention here in the House as .well. · :MR.

WITNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that point is recognized, not only by r;nyself but by the officials of the department. At this moment I would like to answer a question which the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition posed to the Minister of Industry and Commerce about the archaeological program in the Grand Rapids-Forebay area. We were very fortunate last year to have a distinguished man in this field, Dr. William J. Mayer-Oakes investigate t�e area quite thoroughly during 19 61. He was in the Forebay area along with Mr. Eugene Arima, formerly of the National Museum at Ottawa; Mr.

Raymond Klump of the University of Mani toba; and a Mr. Ian Rodger. Dr. Mayer-Oakes is the Director of the Stovall Museum at the University of Oklahoma. During the year of 196 1, 39 archaeological sites were recorded; five were test excavated; and approximately 5, 000 definite artifacts were recovered, exclusive of bone fragments. A detailed study and analysis of these artifacts is being made now and we · expect that they will be reporting on them in June of this year. For the 1962 program for this coming summer, we are negotiating at the present time for Dr. Mayer-Oakes to return to direct the program .

We haven't been able to finalize the negotiations yet because of the heavy agenda that the man has, but we do know that he is anxious to cone into the area once more o"n the basis of the finds that were made . Some of these finds date back for many thousands of years. If we are not able to receive the assistance of Dr. Mayer-Oakes we will have someone else, because we have the interest of the National Museum of Canada and the University of Manitoba· to work along with us.

I think I am safe in saying that in the most valuable potential sites that there were in the Forebay area, tests were excavated and examined before bulldozers or other machinery that would have destroyed the area, moved in. :MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 60 -- pass? :MR. A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister some questions about an area some few miles west and northerly of Lower Fort Garry called the St. Andrew's Bog. Before I do, I would just like to say that in a few days now the geese Wul be Page 1194 March 29th, 1962

(Mr. Wright, cont'd .) ..... thinking of coming north. They will rise from the marshes at Louisiana and they will stop off on their first stop in Manitoba. Now for many hundreds of years they have been stopping in an area known as Meadows, Manitoba, but for the last two or three years I have been making a journey out there to see them because I understand there are ma ny thousands of them landing here , however, I haven 't been very lucky because the nati ves there tell me, that because the drainage is now more efficient and there's not the same amount of water, that these geese are not stopping there now.

This seems to me too bad because these geese; this Canada Blue Goose of which we're so proud, makes this flight from Louisiana and makes only one stop on its way to Hudson Bay; and I'm told that on the way back they ma ke no stops at a�l . It seems to me that anything we can do to encourage these feathered friends of ours to land in these so-called staging grounds should be encouraged. Now I'm a member of the Seven Oaks Fish and Game Association, and I might say, Mr. Chair man, · I understand so is our Minister, and I know that we're very interested in this area known as St. Andrews Bog.

I was told that an area had been set aside for Ducks Unlimited, at one time, to be used as a sanct uary . I understand, too, that one of the officials of the Municipality of St. Andrews said that this was so and that the assessed value of the water area -- and I want to make it under stood, Mr. Cha irman, that there is a water area there now, it's not a matter of just flooding -- that this water area has been assessed at $700 .0 0. This involves roughly a half section. Now at one time in the past it had been considered flooding this area to be used as a sanctuary.

In view of the fact that this is very close to the city, it would ma ke a wonderful attraction, es pecially for our children in the·spring when the geese arrive here, and if they arrive on

schedule they'll be here on April 6th. I think that if we would consider these areas it would be well worthwhile . I'm reminded of a clipping that the Honourable Member for Gladstone referred to. It has to do with our federal government and their policy in this regard. I'm not going to talk about remunerating the farmers for maintaining the potholes on their farms, but I am going to quote a portion of it where Mr.

Dins dale told the annual meeting of the Ontario Federation of Angle·rs and Hunters - "That the proposal came from a committee of Canadian and Am erican experts studying the preservation of migratoJ;"y birds . He said it would be tried on a sma ll scale at first and expanded if it proved acceptable to farmers and helped increase the water fowl population ." Mr. Dinsdale said: "The steady draining of western sloughs and potholes had a serious effect on duck nes ting. " Mr.

Speaker, my concern is, if it is true that the staging grounds for our geese and that are drying up, then perhaps we should be looking to a preservation of these areas that would be acceptab le . Now I understand that our Mi nister of Agriculture has already said that this area will be dra ined and us.ed for agriculture . Now I wouldn 't argue agriculture with our Minister, but I do think that this is of equal importan ce, providing this proper staging grounds for our geese, and I think that our Minister probably could explain this to me . MR.

WITNEY: In relation to this problem, the Seven Oaks Game and Fish brought it to me about a year ago and I began to work on it with the Minister of Agriculture , but we pretty soon ended up into the hands of the munitipality who have some very important points in rela tion to this area. I have suggested to the Game and Fish Association , the Seven Oaks Game and Fish Association by letter, that they should begin to negotiate with the municipality because I think that that hurdle will have to be overcome first before the Department of Mines and Natural Resources can take the matter any further.

With respect to the game preserve that he refers to, I have asked the Game Branch to look into that particular area once more -- and this comes about because we were dealing with acquisition of land which is under this number -- to re-a ssess this game sanctuary that has been there for some period of time, and which was unknown to me, at any rate until such time as the Seven Oaks Game and Fish Association brought this matter up. Now they have sent the Chief Biologist out to assess this area and advised me they would make a recom mendation whe ther or not we should keep it or wh at we should do with it.

I would suggest to the honourable member, that in view of the difficulties that are posed with the municipality , that the Seven Oaks Game and Fish Association should liaison with the municipality first and then we can continue to w.ork on the problem. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, earlier in the session my colleague, the Member from March 29t h, 1962 Page 1195

(Mr. Molgat, cont1d. ) ..... St. George, suggested that the government should consider set ting up parks this year in commemoration of the 150t h Anniversary of the Selkirk Settlers, and there was some comment then from the members on the front benches. I wonder if they are prepared to accept this recommendation of my colleague and whe ther the Minister has any thing to report on this. MR. WITNEY: I really have nothing to report on it, Mr. Chairman, except that nego tiations are under way at the present time with the federal government on the plans for the Lower Fort Garry.

Apart from that, that's all that I can answer to the question. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 60 - pass? MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, I'd like further clarification here. The Minister said that it's now up to the Seven Oaks Fish and Game to take up this matter with the municipality, but before that happens, I'd like to know has the Minister of Agriculture declared that this area will be .used for agriculture, because if that's true , then there's no use taking it up with the municipality.

Secondly, if this area is so valuable to be used as staging grounds for our geese when they arrive in the spring, I fail to see why the onus should go on the Seven Oaks Fish and Game to negotiate with the municipality. Surely if this is important enough, that the govern ment would show some leadership here. . . ; . . . . . . Continued on next page Page 1196 March 29th, 1962

MR . CHAIRMAN: Department V, Education. Administration, Resolution 22. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Ch airman, before we proceed on to the next department, could the First Minister indicate what the sequence will be after ? MR. ROBLIN: Yes, Sir, the next department after Education will be the Department of the Attorney-General . MR . CAMPBELL: We should be in to that this evening, shouldn't we ? A MEMBER: I hope. HON . STEWART E. McLEAN, Q.C . (Minister of Education}(Dauphin): Mr.

Ch airman, in the fiscal year 1949- 1950, the total estimated expenditures in the Province of Manitoba, all de partments, ali purposes, was $36, 463 , 000 . This year we are asking this Committee and the House to approve $36 ,5 34, 000 for the Department of Education alone , and it'Ei against that rather startling fact that I present some information for the Committee as we ask your approval of the expenditures which we wish to make this year, and which you will note are up consider ably from last year .

In making this annual report I should, of course , acknowledge the splendid work of the staff of the Department of Education, their devotion to duty and their enthusiasm, and the splendid manner in which they have discharged their duties since I had the occasio:l of present ing the estimates for this department a year ago . In particular I should like to mention, Mr. Chairman , that the Deputy Minister of Education, Mr.

Scott Bateman , completed in September a year as President of the Canadian Education Association, which is the association represent ing all departments of education and groups concerned with education in Canada, and la ter was one of the Canadian delegates to the Commonwealth Education Conference held in New Dehli, India, all indicating the high regard in which he is held in the educational circles in Canada, and a fitting tribute to the work that he has done in the Province of Manitoba in our department.

And I know that his interest and his enthusiasm has been matched by all the members of the staff in the department.

And, of course , there are many others from whom we have received the utmost co-opera tion and assistance , too numerous to mention individually , but rather by groups, such as the school trustees, the trustee associations , the teachers, individual teachers, and the Teachers' Society, municipal councils and other departments of the government , as I shall be mention ing during the course of my remarks, in particular the Department of Public Works, Depart ment of Municipal Affairs, Treasury Department, and Industry and Commerce, and other voluntary associations. I say this, Mr.

Ch airman, to indicate that the problem, or the work , of providing the educational services for the boys and girls of Manitoba is a co-operative ven ture in which many people , in many different ways , are directly involved. Now I would like to begin by acknowledging that there are some problem areas , many that will be drawn to my attention during the course of the next several days, no doubt, as we're considering these estimates.

But I would want to acknowledge that, for example -- and the members will wish to draw this to our attention -- we have not resolved the" matter of teachers' pensions, although some legislation will be introduced during this Session and we will have an opportunity of discussing that fully before we complete our sessions here. I acknowledge how ever that this is a problem. The pension plan in the Province of Manitoba for teachers is not a good one . It requires considerable revision, and I acknowledge that as frankly as I know how.

No doubt there'll be some comment about the matter of teacher standards, and teacher training, and I acknowledge without any question that we were unable to meet the target we had set for ourselves last September and did accept in our teacher training institutions,Teachers' Coll ege , students with less than their complete and full Grade 12 . And I acknowledge that we were unable to meet the target which I indicated to the Committee a year ago we hoped to make.

We have a problem in the matter of examinations, in the marking of English papers in Grades 11 and 12 , and we are proposing to try and meet that problem this year by combining, having one paper, a combined paper in the English subje cts to determine whether or not we can meet that rather difficult and troublesome problem that has shown itself during the past few years. Associated with that we have a further problem of recruiting sufficient qualified mark ers for the departmental examinations at the end of the year . This problem is emphasized by the fact that

whereas in 1959 we required 614 markers, in this coming year we will require 992. That, of course, is a reflection of the larger number of students in our high school s, and March 29th, 1962 Page 1197

(Mr. McLean, cont'd.) •••. the larger number writing, so that our problem of getting suffi cient teachers has been increasing. But along with that , the larger number required, has been the fact that there are not the same incentives for teachers to take positions of this sort because they have better salaries, they may wish to take the full summer holiday -- the full benefit of the summer holidays -- a,nd then many of them, more and more of them are attending summer school and, of course , are not available for working in marking of the examination papers.

We _propose to try and meet this problem this year by increasing the salaries paid to the mark ers and I might just indicate what those increases will be , assuming that we are able to get our estimates through this committee: the chairman of marking committees to increase from $23.0 0 per day to $28 .0 0; assi stant chairman to be increased from $21.0 0 per day to $25 .7 5 a day; the readers or markers to be increased from $19 .00 a day to $23 .5 0 a day.

It is our hope that we may be able to meet in that way the problem that we've been having during the past two or three years in rec ruiting a sufficiently large number of qualified markers . Now if I may leave that aspect, tliose points -- I thought it only right and proper that I should draw them to the attention of the committee -- I would like to go on to some figures con cerning the comparative position of education over the years and to indicate the way in which larger and larger amounts of money are being asked of the Legislature for the purposes of this department.

In 1956-57 the department asked for $12 ,8 72, 000 leaving off the odd dollars at the end; '57 -58 they asked for $15,2 83, 000; '58 -59 for $19, 644, 000; '5 9-60, $25 ,5 60 , 000;' 60- 61, _ $32 ,1 51, 000 ; '61 -62 , the currentyear inwhich we are now almostfinished, $33 ,5 29, 000; and for the next fiscal year of '62-63 , $36 , 534, 000 .

Out of total expenditures-- proposed expenditures, of $121, 264 , 000 education is askingfor this$ 36, 534 ,0 00 or 30. 1% of our total proposed expenditures, and it is the largest individual item of all of the departments in the current budget and I rather suspect that even when we consider capital that we will also find that education will still be receiving the Jargest item in the proposed expenditures of the Province of Manitoba. Now those are the expenditures for the operation of the entire department.

It will be of interest to note the amount of that -- the proportion , or at least the part of it which goes for school grants because these are monies that are paid directly to school districts -- school divi sions as distinguished from the other operating .services which are carried on by the depart ment, and in, 1957-58 the grants amounts to $10,6 55,0 00; '5.8-59 , $14,2 00 , 000; in '5 9-60 , $18,785, 000 ; in '60- 61, $24 ,2 34, 000 ; in '6 1-62 , $24, 725 , 000; and in this coming fiscal year , $27 ,0 12 , 000 , and I thought that the committee would be interested in· the operation of the equal ization principle as it applies to the payment of education grants, because as the members of the committee know, it is based on assess ment and teacher count, which is just another way of saying pupil count, with a view to placing or, yes, placing every part of the province in a reasonably equal position to provide the same quality of educational services, and I give you these figures to indicate , as I say , how the equalization principle is operating in actual practice .

Taking the 1961 total es timated costs of school divisions, including the local school dis tricts within divisions, that is to say -- I'm talking now about the entire cost of education, both elementary and high school in the divisions -- and for the year 196 1, this is according to the statements submitted to the Department of Education by the school districts and the school divi:.. sions concerned. In Lakeshore School Division, pr�vincial grants paid 73% of their total educa-· tional costs and local taxes provided 27 percent.

In Duck Mountain School Division provincial grants paid 72% of the cost and local taxes paid 28 percent. In Seine River School Division provincial grants paid 68% of the cost and local taxes paid 32 percent. In Turtle River School Division provincial grants paid 68% and local taxes paid 32%, and in Whitehorse Plains School Division provincial grants paid 67% of the cost and local taxes paid 33 percent. I mention these figures, Mr.

Chairman, to indicate the way in which the equalization principle in the payment of school grants is operating -- (Interjec tion) -- It goes down, as the members of the committee know -- obviously it would go down, and I am not too certa in that I can give the bottom fi gure , but it's possibly around 21 or 22 percent provincial for some of those at the other end of the scale; that is perfectly correct. With respect to the staff of the department I might mention that we have 351 es tablished positions and had on staff as of December 31st, 1961, 325 persons .

Of that group our inspec tion staff is 48 in number and we had 48 school inspectors on staff. I perhaps should also men tion here that since I last was before this Committee we have had the establishment of one new Page 1198 March 29th, 1962

(Mr . McLean, cont•d.) • • . • school division, !mown as Western School Division. It came into operation on January 1st, 1962 , making now 44 school divisions in all, operating in the Province of Manitoba. With regard to the number of students in our schools, it is interesting to note that on June 30th, 1958 we had 169, 482 students in our schools . That figure has been going up, and as of December 31 st , 1961 we had 198 , 000 students in our schools, or an increase of 28 , 51 8 students since June 30th, 1958 .

That is a substantial increase , but of course , one of the things which is of particular interest to us is the increase in the number of high school stu dents, because our school division system was specifically designed to provide better oppor tunities for the secondary grade students, and I might just give the figures: in 1958-59 there were in Grade IX, 12 ,2 77 students; in 1961-62 we had 15 ,9 30, for an increa�e of 3,6 53 , or an increase of 29.8 percent in Grade IX. In Grade X in '5 8- 59 there were 9, 772 ; in 1961-62 , 12 , 179 for an increase of 2,4 07 or an increase of 24. 6 percent.

In Grade XI, we had in '5 8 -59 , 8, 010 students ; in '61- 62 , 10 , 148 students , for an increase of 2, 138 or 26 .7 percent. In Grade XII -- and here is where we find a rather dramatic change -- in Grade XII there were 3, 715 in '5 8-59 , and in the current year 196 1-62 we have 6,2 76 , an increase of 2,5 61 or an increase of 69% in that period of time , an increase of 69% in the number of students in Grade XII. If you total the whole -- the IX, X, XI and XII for the same period we find an increase -- a total in crease in our high school population of 10 , 759 or an increase perc entage of 32 perc ent.

I just point out that while we were having that increase in the number of Grade XII students in our high schools that there was at 'the same time a corre sponding -- that is for the correspo nding period there was an increase in the number of students at first year univers ity or college , an increase from 967 to 1, 082 , so that there was both the increase at the university and colleges as well as the increase in the high schools.

For the three-year period from 1956-59 the in crease in the Grade XII enrollment amounted to 43%, 43 .1 %, and I have just given the figures for the three-year period 1958 to 196 1-62 as 69 percent. One of the interesting things, Mr.

Chairman, is the retention of our students particularly in our high schools, and the committee will be interested to !mow that starting with the students in Grade II in 1953 at lOO% , we have retained as of this year , the fall term of 19 61, 66 .1 % of our students that started in Grade II are in Grade XI, and that is a rather interesting figure, and if I might be perm itted to make a comparison-with respect to the Grade XII students , I might point out that in the three -year period prior to 1959 the increase in the Grade XII, in re tention in the Grade XII was just slightly under three percentage points and for the years since '5 9 up to the pre sent time the percentage increase is just a decimal or two under 9 percentage points.

I think this is interesting and worthwhile, because one of the important things is that we should retain as much as we can of the students through until they have completed their formal education. I think, however , that it would be interesting, speaking of high school enrollment and the increase, to indicate where the largest increases have been occurring, and I would like to give these figures with respect to a number of the school divisions of the province , which members will note are all rural divisions and do not have urban centres in them , perhaps with one or two slight exceptions.

I give you these figures to indicate where the increases in the high school enrollment are taking place . In Mountain School Division, in June 30th, 1959, there were 305 students in high school; in the fall term of 196 1 there were 371 for an increase of 66 or 21.6 per cent. In Pine Creek School Division there were 439 in 1959, 554 in 1961 for an increase of 115 or 26 .2 percent. In Beautiful Plains, 500 in Jl.lne 30 , 1959 , 657 in the fall term of 196 1 for an increase of 157 or 31.4 percent . In the Red River Division, 422 in 1959 , 560 in 1961, increase 138 , 32 .7 percent.

Swan Valley School Division, 647 in 1959 , 930 in 196 1 for an increase of 283 or 43 . 7 percent. Pelly Tr ail School Division 419 in 1959, 606 in 196 1 for an increase of 187 or 44.6 percent. In Turtle Mountain School Division 39 4 in 1959 , 587 in 196 1, for an increase of 193 or 49 percent. Rolling River School Division 644 increas ing to 1, 010 or 366 increase for an increase of 56 .8 percent. Intermountain School Dvision 480 in 1959, 753 in 19 61, increase 273 , 56 .9 percent. Turtle River 342 , in 1959 , 541 in 1961, an increase of 199 , 58 .2 percent.

Agassiz 537 in 1959 , 889 in 1961, increase of 352 students, 65 .5 percent. Seine River 341 in 1959 , 589 in 1961, an increase of 248 or 72 .7 %, and Duck Mountain 269 in 1959 , 474 in 1961, an increase of 205 or 76 .2 %; and Lakeshore 284 in 1959 , March 29th, 1962 Page 1199

(Mr. McLean, cont'd.) •••• 653 in 1961, an increase of 359 or an increase of 126 .4 percent. Now I think, Mr. Chairman, that that indicates the way in which the school division plan is operating to bring larger numbers of students into our high school grades, and as the members will note, particularly in the rural parts of the province .

I pointed out last year that one of the interesting things that was going along with the establishment and operation of school divisions was the trend toward consolidation of our schqol districts for the provision of elementary education, and I am happy to be able to report that that trend has continued during the past year.

Perhaps not going all the way back but giv ing the figures on number of consolidations formed in years , starting at 1958 there were five , '5 9 there were 23 , '60 there were 15 and in the year that has just closed, 16 consolidations, and we now have a total of 168 consolidated school districts in the Province of Manitoba as of December 31st, 196 1. There were in 1961, 36 school districts dissolved.

That figure is im portant but along with it one must also look at another set of fig ures to get the perspective or the picture, and that is the number of school districts with operating classrooms and in 1958- 59, we had 1,5 67, in 1959-60 we had gone down to 1,4 78 , and in 1960-61 we had ·gone down to 1,3 61, and as of December 31st , 1961 we had 1,3 01 operating school districts in the Province of Manitoba, or a reduction in that period of time, that is since 195 8- 1959 , of 266 or 17 per cent.

I mention this because, as I say, it's part of the picture when one is considering the trend toward consolidation. This is a trend which we are encouraging in every possible way and which I believe to be good and right and proper , and which we believe w.ill gather momen tum in the immediate fut ure, and all of this is a good thing because there is no question that better educational services can be provided if we gather the children in the elementary grades into larger numbers where they can have the competition of other students in the same grade, and wherever possible graded classes.

I would like to give a report on the building program , the school building program. This has been one of the things that has probably been more spectacular than some of the other things that have been happening. It's easy to see a school; you know that it's being built; you know that it has been built; you've probably been to the official opening, and I would like to just report that since April 1, 1959, when our school division system came into operation, until March 15 , of this year, there has been built -- I am speakillg now of high schools only - there has be.en built 90 new high schools.

There are three high schools under construction at the present time and four have been approved but not constructed, for a total of 97 new high schools in that period of time.

In addition to that there have been additions to a number of schools, actually 17 additions completed, fo ur are under construction and one is approved but not constructed as yet, for a total of 22 additions to existing high schools, and I point out :that the total estimated cost -- because there could be a slight variation although this is pretty close -- the total estimated cost of that high school construction amounts to $29 , 129, 000 . 00 .

This construction in the field of high schools has been paced along by construction in the ele mentary school field as well, because in that same period of time there have been 66 new elementary schools constructed, five are under construction at the present time, and 11 are approved but not under construction, for a total of 82 new elementary schools either under con struction or planned in that period of time, and likewise of course there have been additions to a large number of elementary schools, additions to 64 already constructed, additions to eight are under construction now, and additions to fo ur more have been approved although they're not under construction.

The total estimated cost of the elementary school construction during truit period of time is $17 ,22 6,0 00 .00. That is a substantial sum of money which is being spent for the provision of school fac ilities throughout the Province of Manito ba. Reverting if I may for a moment to the high school construction program, I w ould like to point out what effect this has been having on the type of schools that the students are attending, and my comparison here is between 1958 just prior to the beginning of the division plan, and 1961, the latest year for which we have the figure s.

In 1958 we had 36 continuation schools - I am talking now about high school instruction-- 36 continuation schools. In 1961 we had two for a reduction of 34. We had in 1958 , 151 one-room high schools; in 196 1 we had 54, a re duction of 97 , We had in 1958 , 53 two-room high schools; and in '61, 19 , for a reduction of 34. We had in 1958, 47 three-room high schools, or I believe sometimes these are referred to as collegiate departments , but they're three-room high schools and we had 47 ; in '61 we Page 1200 March 29th, 1962

(Mr . McLean , cont'd.) .. ..•..• had 29 , for a reduction of 18 . And in colle giate insti tutes, which is a high school with four classrooms or more , we had 66 in 1958 and 141 in 1961, for an increase of 75. In 1958 there were 17 colle giate institutes with 12 or more academic rooms, and in 1961 there were 37 collegia te institutes with 12 or more academic rooms, or an increase of 20.

The members of the Committee will see what has been happening -- the movement away from the continuation school , the one-room high school , the two-room high school , the three-room high school , to colle giate institutes having the four-room or more where the instruction is given by grades and in most cases now, of course, by subjects where the teacher specialized in the subject teaching. While. spe'aking about the building program , I am happy to report again as I did last year , that the Province of Manitoba has not had to purchase any school debentures since April of 1960.

We have a program of what are known as "T rustee Agreements" and with the , I should say wonderful assis tance of the Department of Municipal Affairs and the municipal board work ing with the I;>epartment of Education, it has been possible to assist all of the school districts and school divisions to dispose of their debentures without having them purchased by the Pro vince of Manitoba, and the most recent issue , that of River East , they were able to dispose of their debentures in the amount of $377 , 000 at an interest rate or interest cost of 5. 49% , just a slight bit under 5 1/2 percent.

When speaking of building I should not forget to mention the Institute of Technology which is presently under construction in the Town of Brooklands, and which is estimated to cost $4 ,0 00, 000 of which Canada will pay 75%; 25% of the cost will be paid by the Province of Manitoba. This , we hope , will be completed by March 31 st of next year and I'll be ·having something to say in a few moments about what will go on in that insti tute once it has been constructed and is ready for use .

One of the other things which has been perhaps almost equally spectacular with the growth in the number of school buildings has been the growth in the provision made for the transpor tation of students to school , and this growth has taken part for the most

part in the high school field, although in corresponding -- not corresponding measure , because it hasn't been quite the same percentage expansion in the eleme ntary field -- but on Apr il 1, 1959 , there were 10 buses owned by school districts or school divisions. On March 15, 1962, there are 159 divi sion and district-owned buses for an increase of 149, or if you express it in terms of percen tage it's an increase of 1, 490% in the number of division and district-owned school buses .

In 1959, April 1st, there were eight contract buses had by districts and so on, and on March 15th of this year there were 46 , for an increase of 38 or expressed in terms of percentage an in crease of 475 percent. In 1959 there were 851 van routes -- these would be for the most

part in elementary schools -- and by March 15th this year there were 1, 541 for an increase of 690 or 81%, and the total estima ted number of pupils that are transported every day, and I am in cluding in this number those who receive compensation in lieu of transportation or living allowanc e, has increased from 7, 000 on April 1, 1959 to 24, 000 as of March 15th of this year, an increase of 18 , 000 students, or an increase of 343%.

In connection with the transportation of school children and the provision of buses, I might point out that the Province of Manitoba in 196 1-62 will be paying out $8 93, 700 towards the cost of operating -- this is operating cost of buses and vans and so on -- and in 1961- 62 we are also paying out $183 , 550 toward the capital purchase of these buses.

Perhaps it would not be out of order for me to mention that many of the school divisions and school districts are operating quite efficient transportation systems, and while I hesitate to mention any in particular , the record or the work that is being done by the Crystal City Consolidated School District, by the Swan Valley School Division, and by the Dauphin-Ochre School area in this re gard, I thought warranted mention of them beca use they are doing it in a most economical and worthwhile way.

And I want to say that I appreciate the splendid way in which the trustee s have taken hold of the large problem of providing transportation.

And I would also like to say here that we appreciate in the Department of Education the understanding and the co-operation and the assistance of the Department of Public Works, because through that department financial assist ance is provided toward the repair and construction of what are known as school bus routes and in the current fiscal year '61- 62, they are providing some $300 ,0 00 through that department for that particular purpose , which amount is added to monies that are provided by the individual municipalities concerned. And to all of them I want to say how much we March 29th, 1962 Page 1201

(Mr . McLean, cont•d. ) •••• appreciate it, because I'm not a road building man and I don't know anything about matters of this sort, but I do know that they have been most helpful and most co-operative at all times. Well , having talked about school buildings and money and transportation, I think we ought to turn for a moment to what goes on in the schools, because after all that's the object of the . exerqise . First of all , the matter of teacher supply. It is interesting to note that on June 30, 1958 , there were 6, 645 teachers in the Province of Manitoba.

On December 31, 1961, there were 8,0 69 teachers, or an increase of 2,4 24 teachers. That, expressed in terms of percent age, is 36 .4 percent. In 1961 the total salary bill for the teachers of the province amounted to $34, 088 , 000 giving teachers an average salary in 196 1 of $4 ,4 72 , or if you prefer to use the median, which I believe some statisticians prefer, the median salary in 1961 was $4 ,0 50 . 00 . I point out that those figures are an increase, in each case an increase of $1, 000 over the average or median, as the case might be , in 1959.

And I think if I might make the comment, that some reasonable progress has been made in bringing-- from a financial point of view ; in making teaching worthwhile. In 1958 , June 30 , 1958 , there were 82 permit teachers in the· secondary schools of Manitoba. On December 31, 1962 , there were 80 permit teachers in the high schools of Manitoba, a reduction of only two , and this points up one of our problems in the whole field of teacher supply, that it has been difficult to keep up to the Increasing requirements - of qualified high school teachers .

And if you want to launch a real attack on the Department of Education you can point out to the fact that there has only been a reduction of two in the total number of permit teachers in the secondary schools in the Province of Manitoba, and I acknow ledge it to be one of the most important jobs we have, is to overcome that problem in the secon dary school field� In the elementary school field there were 254 permit teachers on June 30th, 1958 ; there are 42 as of December 31 st, 196 1, for a reduction of 212 , and it would appear that we have virtually eliminated permit teachers from the elementary schools of Manitoba.

You will be interested in the matter of conditional certificates that are held by teachers. These are cases where teachers hold a certificate that is not really a full certificate; there is some condition attached to it that they must get. rid of. Well we had on June 30th, 1958 , we had 865 people with conditional certificates; on December 31st, ' 196 1, we had 419 conditional certi . ficates for a reduction of 446 conditional certificates during that period of time.

And I wish to announce that by 1964, by September 1964, we will have eliminated completely all conditional certificates in the Province of Manitoba. Teacher entrance , the entrance to teacher training; in September 1962 we will require a clear Grade XII . I recognize that I said last year that I hoped that that would be the case .a s of September 1961. We found that we were required to accept a certain number of students_l ack ing one class in Grade XII to our Teachers' College and we were unable to make that target.

But I'm an optimist and feel quite confident that we will be able to keep this ruling, or this con dition for this year. It's interesting to note. that in one year, that is , from the year January 1, 1961, to January 1, 1962 , we had an increase of 22 people in our teacher training institutions in Manitoba. Insofar as elementary teacher training is _concerned, I wciuld point" out that in 1961 the percentage with Grade XII or better was 46 .7 ·percent, and in this current year the percentage with Grade XII or better is 74 percent.

And one of the things that has happened is that even though we were not able to insist on a complete Grade XII we had an improvement of 27 .3 percentage points in the number of.people in our teacher training insti tutions with Grade XII or better. This is an interesting point, with great respect to_ the lady members of the Committee , that the number Of men in our elementary teacher training institutions from 1961 to the current year, the number of men increased by 3. 57 percentage - - points. _ Turning to the curriculum and the things that are done in the. schools themselves.

Of course one of the things that has been talked about a great deal and perhaps occupies the public mind more than anything else is the new general course in our high schools. And this has been a won derful experience, Mr. Chairman, the co-operation and the assistance and the enthusiasm that has gone into the planning of this new general course. You will recall that last year I reported that there had been in the previous summer, I think they call it a seminar at the Teachers' College , with teachers drawn in from all over Manitoba, to lay down the general plan of a course . Page 1202 March 29th, 1962 :..

(Mr. McLean, cont 'd.) • • • . Since that time they have been developing the course outline s themselves in readiness for the commencement of the course on an experimental basis in September 1962 . And I want to acknowledge again the assistance which we have received from the Teachers Society, from teachers themselves , from industry and labour, from commerce , and to all those who have been of such tremendous help to us in publiciz ing this new ve·n ture in our high school courses.

Whether you agree with it or not , whether you think it's good O·r· bad, I think we might say that it has received a tremendous amount of publicity and that is all to, the good. Experiments are being carried out this year, in this current school year, in a numb er of the subjects iii order to test them and make sure that they're in good order, and these have been carried out in Churchill High School, Sisler High School, Gordon Bell High , Glenlawn Collegiate, Neepawa Collegiate and the Elmwood High School in the subjects of social studies. science and Eng lish.

These are pilot subjects just to prepare us for the introduction of the general course in September of this year . And in September of this year the ne w gen eral co,urse will be introduced at the Grade X level in the high schools in 24 school divisions -- 28 schools in all; 35 classes. And these are spread around as you will see when I read the name s to you� Winnipeg, Assiniboine north, St. Bonifa ce, Fort Garry, St. Vital, St.

James , Norwood, River East, Seven Oaks , Lord Selkirk, Transcona, Springfi eld, Hanove r, Evergreen , Portage La Prairie, Pine Creek, Beautiful Plains , Swan Val ley, Inte rmountain , Rolling Riv er, Brandon, Fort La Bosse , Turtle Mountain , Flin Flan, Dauphin-Och re. And I want to say that I appre ciate the willingne ss of the trustees and the teachers in all of these divisions and schools who have undertaken . this important experiment.

Our hope is -- and I make no firm statement -- but our hope is that the new course will be found sat isfactory, and that we will be able to make it generally available in September 1963 . But I want to make it quite clear that that is some thing that one cann ot say at the present time . We are having a briefing session at the Manitoba Teachers College on April 23rd for the teachers who will be involve d in teaching the subjects in the new general course, and there will be 175 people at that session.

And then there will be local briefing sessions held in the period from May 5th to May 15th, where the people from the department will go out and meet with the teachers, and these will be held in Brandon, St. Vitru, Flin Flan, Ethelbert and West Kildonan . And the teachers will be brought in to these centres to have a further briefing for the subjects and for the work of that course. It's a new vent ure ; it's most worthwhile; and I hope that all of the members here will be interested in it and keep an eye on it as it goes along.

One other thing that is being started on an experimental basis in September 1962 is the introduction of Ukrainian as a language , high school language , and this will be int roduced in Grade IX. We have not as yet selected the schools at which the subject will be introduce d, but the program of studies has been prepared; the books are ready; and we are just now in the pro cess of sorting out where the courses will be -- the schools in which the courses will be provided·.

Along with the work in the gene ral course has gone revision of French for Grades IV, V and VI and we now have 20 teachers using experimentally 11 texts in Conve rsational French for the Grades IV, V and VI. These texts have been put out by five different publishers , and it is our hope to introduce the revised program in Grade IV in September, 1962 , and then continue in succeeding grades each year.

Physical education: this is one thing that has bothered a good num ber of people, including myself, for some time , and we are now working on a new program for Grades I to XI and we propose to int roduce the new program for Grades ·vn to XI in September of this year . This is a revised program, or a revised syllabus, or whatever the word is , for the physical education program.

Of int erest, although not directly the responsibility of the Department of Education, is the fact that there has just recently been fo!'med an inter- scholastic sports committee com prised of school people from all over Manitoba who are inte rested in the promotion of school sports as distingui shed from physical education , and this committee has been formed with a view to promoting in ter-school or inte r-scholastic sports. This has become fairly easy now that we can get around easily, and we feel that it will promote the whole gene ral tone and de velopment of physical education and sports in our schools.

We are going to have a new revised program in Home-making from Grade vn to Grade IX. March 29th, 1962 Page 1203

(Mr. McLean, cont'd.) •.•• This was actually introduced in September , 196 1, with a new test and we are now revising the program for Grades X, XI and XII .

In Industrial Arts there are complete new outlines for Grades X, XI and XII in five areas of automotive, woodworking, metal work, draughting and electrical going to be issued in the spring of 1962 for the use in September, . 1962 at Grade X with subsequent -- the higher grades to follow, and we now have a new· r�'Y':i sed commerciar vticaticinal course ready for submissi on to the Advisory Board, the boatd 'tb.at ii tbi slibjElchiiattk'r o{ the amendments to the Department of Education Act, and we are als � ili the· Ii:'r'dc�ass 6{revising all of the technical vocational course s.

Along with this there are wJ:ilii' Tbel ieve the experts call "controlled experiments" going on in many fields, which may or may not lead to changes in courses of study and curriculum development. Mem bers will have noticed a few days ago in the paper a reference to the CUISENAIRE method of teaching arithmetic . Tha t's perhaps an outstanding example of what is going on in that general field. Over all of this and sort of hanging over our head is the problem of the revision of the matriculation course which still has to come .

No developments have taken place in that parti cular field during the past year but as I indicated we recognize that when we have our new gen eral course operating that our next important problem is the revision of the matriculation course itself. In the vocational courses in our high schools I have some figures indicating the increase in the number of students and the increase in the number of teachers participating in these courses.

I find that in the period of one year , that is from '60- 61 to '6 1-62 , we have 33 more teachers engaged in teaching commercial , trade and industrial , and industrial arts and an in crease in the student enrollment of 28, 710 , in the number of students taking those courses in our various schools.

Perhaps standing out more particularly in this general field is the work of preparing for the Institute of Technology, and some days ago I passed around to the members sort of a general outline of the courses that would be offered at that institute, which we hope will be able to commence instruction in September, 1963 . At the expense of repetition I would like to point out in referring to what I gave the members on that previous occasion, that there will be three general areas that will be provided for in this Institute of Technology.

There will be the shop and trade and vocational courses that are now carried on at the Manitoba Tech nical Institute with such additions as may be necessary and found advisable , The new advance is in two particular areas . The first one is called the technological cours.es, and these are post high school course s.

They are the courses that stand between -- that is , that come or have a position between the graduation from high school and university or professional training and will be �o provide that training of people who although not professional in the sense that tl!at term is understood by university authoriti es, have 'special training for the particular field in question, and as the members of the committee know; these courses will be of two years' dur ation and will be in the fields of electrical technology, electronic technology, mechanical tech nology, civil technology, medical laboratory technology --. and here I just pause to point out that we are working closely with our friends in the Department of Health in providing this ser vice , and along With that X-Ray technology -- library assistants -- this is something in which · I am interested.

I make no comment about the re ading habits of people , but we're interested in providing for our libraries in Manitoba people who have special training for that particular work, and may I just say, it's not on this list, but we are providing on a correspo ndence course basis -- although I would hope that before too long we might come to provide it in the regular way -- a course for municipal sec retary-treasurers or in municipal administration, and here we have had the utmost co-o peration and assistance from the Department of Munici pal Affair s.

Well, this is one of the new fields of work that will be carried on by the Institute of Technology, and I don't need to really tell you how important it is in this day and age to have training of this sort. The other important addition is that of Industrial Teacher Training.

We have no training of this sort in the Province of Manitoba at the pre sent time other than certain summer school 6ou�$e� that are given on a limited basis, but as we move into v8ciahoi:i:il and technical educa tion iil ()Uf high s chools it becomes even more important -- it's always been important -- but it becomes more important that we proVide more and more teachers trained for that particular type of teaching, and so in our Institute of Technology we will have courses leading to Page 1204 March 29th, 1962

(Mr. McLean, cont' d.) ..•. provincial certification for Industrial Arts instructors and voca tional industrial instructors . This is a new

section of the work and I'm just telling you about it. You will understand the importance that it will have . The Institute of Technology and the work which it will be doing I rank along in importance with the changes in the general course in the high school s.

One of the interesting things during the past year has been the development of pre-voca tional cou rses for up-grading those students -- people who did not have the necessary scholas tic standing to take vocational courses and who left school at an early age , and the training is designed to bring these people to an acceptable level for some vocational course . That level is genera�ly Grade X and in the general field of mathematic s, science and English.

The cost of this is shared 75% by the Government of Canada, 25% by the Province of Manitoba, and we have at the moment 30 students in that course at Brandon and 60 out at the Teach ers' College , in one of the buildings at the Teachers' College in Tuxedo . I should say that we had hoped that we might have such a course operating in southe astern Manitoba. We set up all the arrange ments at the building, the teach ers and everything in readiness , but we received no response . Tha t's a matter of regret I know; certainly a matter of reg ret to me , and I am sure will be to the members of this committee .

Passing on -- and I will only be another moment -- I want to say something about the Uni versity of Manitoba -- point out , give some comparison of the amounts of money that you are being asked to vote for the current ope rations of the university . In 1958-59 you provided $2, 272 ,0 00 and in 1961- 62 , the year just ending, you provided $4, 662 ,0 00 , and you're being asked to provide this year -- for this coming year -- $5, 066 , 000.0 0.

The enrollment during that period of time has increased from 4, 102 to 4, 929; that is, the current number of students at the University of Manitoba for which direct support is provided by the Province of Manitoba.

I would like to make a comment about the capital projects of the universi ty and , in particul ar, reference to the public campaign for capital funds, and to report that during the year the gov ernors of the university came to the government and asked if we would be prepared to partici pate in a campaign which they proposed to launch for capital funds , and the arrangement we arrived at was this , that we would be prepared to recommend to the Legisla ture that monies for what are generally called committed expenditures -- they'r e certain items that the univer sity had wanted to have done or completed -- we would be prepared to recommend to the Legis lature monies for these committed expenditures in the total amount of $7, 048 , 150. 00.

Gener ally speaking these cover agricultural buildings , certain additional work in the library , the Students' Union add ition, pharmacy building, medica l building addit ion, education building which is underway, the old science building alterations , a women' s residence and certain mis cellaneous capital expenditures, making, as I say, a total of $7 , 048 , 150 .0 0.

Then in the pro gram to which the Board of Governors wish to give their particular attention, we have under taken to recommend to the Legisla ture from time to time that the monies be provided by the province to match on a basis of $2. 00 for $1 . 00 monies collected in the pu blic campaign up to a maximum contribution by the province of $ 8 million. That means that to earn the $8 million the public campai gn would have to secure $4 million, assuming that the governors were suc cessful in their campaign, making total monies of $12 million available for further capital ex pansion at the University of Manitoba.

Now, I make it quite clear that , of course, these arrangements were as I have already indicated, subject to being 'approved by the Legisla ture at each session as the money would be required, but on this last aspect of the expansion, I might indicate that some of the buildings which the university proposes to construct as they are able to secure these funds , are a new Arts college , an addition to the library , new medica l building, new Engineering building, new school of Arts , new school of music , a womens ' re sidence , and with the assi stance of the students, a swimming pool and -- I am sorry -- and certain addi tions to the engineering build ing.

These are capital additions which it is hoped will come about at the University of Manitoba as a re sult of this campaign, and we are most happy to have been able to work with the govern ors and so long as it is our responsibility to come each year and present for consideration the request for funds that will be required from the Province of Manitoba. One of the things that are of interest during the past two years have been seminars of secretary-treasurers to assist them in carrying out their duties and responsibilitie s. We have March 29th, 1962 Page 1205

(Mr. McLean, cont'd.) •••• been particularly interested in the secretary-treasurers of school divisions, and in December 1960 and again in December 196 1, the Department of Edu cation sponsored and held a seminar, a two- day seminar, when all of the secretary-treasurers were brought in and where they met with people, officers from the Department of Education, and learned , we hope, more about the operation of their school divisions and about the work that they are required to do .

This is also carried on to some extent with the secretary-tr eas urers of school districts who have been brought now annually for two years by the Manitoba School Trustees Association for one day, and again the officerg from the Department appear and give lectures and e�lanations and :mswer questions and so on. ThiS' is somewhat more limited because , of eoufse , there al'� a large number of school districts and a large number of secretary--treasurers and they ootttt a.il C<i'tne to these meetings .

Something. new has just been started through the sponsorship of the Urban School Trustees Association, and that is seminars for school trustees, and I believe two of these have been held where the instruction and the leadership is given by officers from the Department of Education. I want to say how valuable I feel this type of thing is, and to the extent that it can continue and spread out, it will enable the school districts and the school divisions to give better value to their people and to the whole cause of education generally. Now I couldn't conclude, Mr.

Chairman, without saying something about cost, because I'd be rather surprised if a great deal of the debate and discussion in this Committee doesn't re volve around the subject of cost.

I will be able, I ho pe, to answer some of the questions and not able to answer all of the comments that will be made, but I want to say that I think we must recognize that obviously, if you increase the ntimber of students and if you increase the trans portation, and if you increase the number of courses , and if you increase the number of school buildings or the quality of the school buildings, it's pretty clear that you're going to have addi tional costs. I don't want to hide the matter.

The total cost of education in Manitoba has been going up, and I strongly suspect will continue to go up, but it's going up for a pretty good reason; namely, that we 're providing better opportunities, better services , better facilities , and I hope --·I hope -- better education, although one can never tell because you can't tag it just as the student leaves the school door. But .costs have gone up and will continue to go up, but may I just point this out, Mr .

Chairman, that the cost to the local taxpayers and bearing in mind all the matters that I've said, the cost to the local taxpayers since 1958 ap.d down to and including 196 1, have gone up 37. 39%,

whereas the cost to the province in terms of grants made to school districts and school divisions, in terms of grants the contribution by the pro vince through school grants has gone up by 91.5 5 percent. Now I give those figures because I want to say and I want to say it now, that the Provincial Treasury has not only matched the increased cost to the local taxpayer but has gone almost three times in terms of the increase; That doesn't take away the fact that there has been an·increase • •.

There has been an increase but I think that the proportionate sharing of the increase has been reasonably fair as between the local taxpayers and the people who pay the taxes that give the Province of Manitoba its money. Mr . Chairman, I apologize to the Committee for having taken as long as I have, but I hope that you will feel that we are making some progress, and I think that this is a matter in which each member here may take some credit and pride , because,; you know sometimes we're fond of saying over here , "Well, you voted for it." Well, Mr.

Chairman, the members of this House did vote for the school division system, and I think that you may be proud and happy that you did so because in my opinion it is doing a good job . It is coming into a position ·where it can do a much better job in the future. MR. E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Chairman, first of all I would like to compliment the Minister on his very enthusiastic report of his· department. I must say that he is very comprehensive and gave the details as if he was really enthused about his department , which I am sure he is.

I would like to compliment the staff of the Department of Education because throughout the years that I have been in this House they have been most co-opera tive and I can assure the M1nister that I find them very helpful and very beneficial and doing a good job. I am also sure, Mr . Chairman, that he would wish me to extend my congratulations to the school trustee s, particularly of the division of which I represent, of the good jobs they're dOing towariis implementing the system of education within the province, but I am also sure Page 1206 March 29th, 1962

- --- - --- .. �-- - -·-- - - - �-- --�-- (Mr . Dow, cont'd. ) •••. that the Minister would not want me to agree with all his statements , and as a preface to some of the criticisms and remarks that I am going to make , I would like to suggest, Sir , that the belief in the value of education in Manitoba has been so strongly devel oped that I would think possibly few people question the necessity of the educational services that we have .

Most people, I believe , see the schools as the agent whose specific function is to transmit to each of the new generations as they come along, the accumulated knowledge and techniques which must have been found necessary for man's physical and social survival. From this point of view it is clear that the continued rapid expansion of our knowledge means that each new generation of ·citizens will have to possess more and more information in order to -understand and participate intelligently in the processes which influence their everyday lives. I think that is a reasonably fair statement to ma ke.

Also , some people will have what niight be called a practical look. They will ask what return in dollars an education will yield. I think the aver age person will ask that question, and from the point of view of individual earnings it is abun dantly clear that the size of their income is directly related to the number of succes sful years of education and schooling that they may have . One may also argue that the wealth of the province as expressed in per capita personal income depends not only upon the natural re sources but I say the educational development as well .

Perhaps the parent most often looks to the education as an answer to the question, "What is best means to insure that my children will have an opportunity to lead a useful and satisfying life?" The truth is that the person with the minimum education in our present society must witness a decreasing demand for the services, and relatively high rate of unemployment. Now, Sir , I know that the Minister would expect me to embark on the field of municipal administration in regard to education and I am not going to disappoint him .

I wish to say that municipal councils are comprised mostly of just ordinary people like myself, and they are persons who for one reason or another have sought municipal office and have been elected and are now responsible to their fellow citizens for the efficient administration and well-being of their· particular municipality. Because they are average people their view poin t will reflect what average people are thinking about the affairs of the community, including the very impor tant matter of education.

The difference between the thinking of the average private citizen and his fellow citizen who sits on municipal council is that

whereas the private citizen can exercise his private viewpoint on school and municipal matters without having to account to his fellowman for the view he holds , the one who sits on municipal council must be held re sponsible to his fellow citizens for the stand he takes on any matter which involves the admin- . istration of the community, public affairs including the expenditure raised from local tax and other revenue.

And although municipal governments are not responsible for the direct admin istration of local school system s, they are held indirectly responsible, that they are required to collect local tax revenue for payment of those schools that are levied to them by the school division. boards . And I think it's a fair statement to say that most taxpayers would give a priority to the educational and school requirements over possibly any other single community need.

But the problem as I see it is to find the proper balance between the needs of their locai schools and the equally pressing needs of the community for the municipal requirements . I think whichever way you look at school costs they have been going up at a faster and higher rate than possibly other municipal costs have . Most people will agree that money spent on building new schools is money well-spent, and is perhaps the most just ifiable expenditure that is made from public funds.

Even the First Minister the other day referred to the fact that they were replacing the elevators as landmarks throughout our province . In recent years the municipal share of the property tax has been growing less and less and as a consequence, while on the one hand we have made considerable strides in providing new schools , raising the general standards of education throughout the country, much of this has. been achieved at the expense of desirable and much-needed community improvements.

The taxpayer is also deeply sensitive in another fact, namely, now more than at any time previous, that the owner of the property is being made the scapegoat for not only education, but many costs of government, which more properly should be paid by the general taxpayer and the benefitting community. Municipal governments are generally in agreement that there must be a drastic change in the methods, in tax resourc

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-46
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 46.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	14537ff20d7098db01b41fa58fefa5cce9ef2428

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