VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCR:::PT _.""'I HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, DECEMBER 1, 1981 .\llof ~0. 93

'l Decer.tber 1, 1981 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms)! 'l'ape 3900 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. i::C - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I want to table -a letter that I have today sent to the Minister of DP~E .i.n Ottawa reading as follO\'TS: "Dear l'Ir. ~;:; B2re: I was pleased to hear a Liberal M.P. £rom Newfoundland, Mr. Brian Tobin, ir.:lic<!';ed that there was an increase in th~ !C.,>n<:!Y available to your department as a result of your government's recent budget.

It was further indicated that the increase was over $100 million, bringing the total for your department to $700 million. I was especially pleased to hear .of this information in light of the fact that the Budget Speech itself gave little mention to your department, considering that the Minister of Finance is from a 'have not' province. I found this most disquieting. 1' As you know, I have been . attempting · to meet with you during this past :Year so that some ·of the •eight 'DREE·proposals .the 'P:~rovince has presented to your department could be signed.

Unfortunately, each time a meeting has been arranged, you have had to postpone the meeting.· For the record, the following dates had been arranged: No vember 17, 1980, December 15, 1980, January 6, 1981, March 13 and 14, 1981, May 25, 198~, May 28, 1981, July 6 and 7, 1981. "It is critical that we get moving on these agreements. I am ready at any time to meet you to finalize and sign the proposed agreements that have been put fOrWard by the Province. 1 0 :;> 8 .,

December 1, 1981 Ta?e No. 3901 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: "Surely, it is inconceivable th3.t the DREE budget as a whole would be growing and,at the same time I the amount of funds from DREE to · this l"ro,.rince I the Pro-;tince most in need, would be falling. "I look forward to a meeting at your earliest convenience to discuss your department's ongoing commitment to this Province and the signing of a nQmber of agreements." I table this letter now, Mr. Speaker, for the information of bon. members in the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. l-I..R. HODDER: Mr • .Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Port au Port has approximately one and a half minutes. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I will ask the Premier first,since he did not have the courtesy of sending the letter over to this side of the House, did he say an increase of $100 million in the Dree budget? PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes. MR. HODDER: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I ~ould just like to say that this is typical of the way that this government accepts $100 million from Ottawa. PREMIER PECKFORD: Not for us, no. (Inaudible) SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

HODDER: Well , I mean again in listening to the Premier 1 I asked the question - PREMIER PECKFORD: (Inaudible) I am happy for the $100 million. HR. FLIGHT: -- - -- When will you learn to negotiate? MR. HODDER: Yes, perhaps when the Premier learns to negotiate with Ottawa. You know, I should say to the Premier 1C?~'~ ·(

'j December 1, 1981 T:l?C Nc . :?~:':!. so - 2 !-1R . :!OD D::::R. : that there has neve= been a statesman who has ever been a great sta'::esmaa lvho ..... as a co n:'ro nta tio~alist unles s he went to 1var , physical war . The gr ea t men o: this "-'Orld - PREMIER ~ECKFORD : The constitution (inaudible) SO;>IE liO~. ~IEMBER.S : Oh, oh . MR . HODDER : - were people 1vho were diplom ats and people who could negotiate , if you look back through history .

No w I also say to the Premier that my information from Ottawa is this, th~t on everyone of the DREE agreements that are now under consideration by. the federal gov ernment that the people who are negotiatin g th ese agreements c~.re stalling from the provincial point of view on every one of them . ~s a matter of fact , Mr . Speaker - SOME BON . MEMBERS: Shame , shame! MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : Orde~ , please ! !>lR . HODDER : - I had .,,ord from Otta1.,ra, they wondered wha~ was going on down here in Newfoundland because they were,- 1 (! /~ 1 -=

! December l, 1981 SOr-lE. HON. MEMBERS: MR. HODDER: .MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 3902 NM - 1 Sit down~ Sit dowr. . ~ - the provincial government - Order, please! The hon. member's time has more than expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKEli.: SOME RON • MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: By leave. Is there leave? No. I am sorry. While I am standing may I, on behalf of hon. members, welcome the n~wly elected mayor from the Town of Botwood in the district of Exploits who is seated in our gallery today, Mayor Harry Bartlett. SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: He~L~r! Further statements? The hon.

Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I am indeed today very pleased to be able to inform the House of Assembly that the provincial government has reached a.solution to the problem of the closure of the fish plants in Hermitage and Bellecram. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MOJ!.GAN: This solution, Mr. Speaker, comes in the form of a negotiated settlement between all ten parties involved in a dispute that will result in the two plants reopening under a new operator, Fishery Products Limited, at the beginning of the New Year and, Mr.

Speaker, it will see all fishermen and all the plant workers in the area receive full payment for all the monies owed to them as a result of the plant closures back in June. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: As well, Mr. Speaker, all the parties have now agreed to drop all legal actions that were before the courts. The negotiations to settle the dispute were commenced by the provincial government in September as a result of the recommendations made by Mr. Graham Mercer 10?::ic;

December 1, 1981 Tape ~Jo. 39C2 Nr -1 - 2 MR. MORGAN: in his =eport as a one man commission appointed by the Province to l·oc:\: i:J.to the ,-;hole fishery situation on that part of ·the Province, on the Connaigre Peninsula. Financial assitance from the provincial government, plus an investment by Fishery Products,resulted in a settle~ent being reached by all parties concerned. I can safely say, Mr. Speaker, that this settlement is welcome news to me and I am sure welcomed news to my colleague, the member for the area, Mr. Don Stewart, and the provincial government as a whole. I also believe, Mr.

Speaker, that it is welcome news for not only the fishermen and plant workers effected, but for all the people on the Connaigre Peninsula. Not only does it pave the way for the fishery in that area to return to normal, but it also lifts the cloud of uncertainty that has been hanging over the economic future of these people .for some time. As most members of the House are aware there have been major disruptions in the fishery on the Connaigre Peninsula for the past four years that have resuLt .ed .in p.dV~'!:.Se .. c.conomic .and _social .i!llp.ac.ts on t.he whole area.

The most recent disruption was the closure of these two plants in the month of June 1D?~r::

D.:cernber 1,1981 Tape No. 3303 ah l MR.MORGAN: at Hermitage and Belleoran affecting some 500 fishermen a.nd ,?. t the peak of e!" ,pJ0':"1'1ent,<:o:>::r~:l!::-oximately 17:: plant workers. o·Jhe!l one consi:ie rs the fac"':: that thes e fishermen and plant workers are spread out over eleven different communities with a total population of approximatel y 4,~00 1then the economic and social impact created by disruptions in their onl y major industr y is indeed considerable. In response to this overall situation, the provincial government appointed a one-man commissioner, and before I go any further, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say that one-man commissioner, Mr . Mercer, is in our gallery today and we all welcome him here. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.MORGAN: Mr. Mer~er was appointed to look into the whole situation on that part of the Province ~.rith his tE:!rms of reference"to enquire into all matters related to these social and economic conditions pertaining among the people and the communities 'of that peninsula with particular reference to _the fish catching and processing industry in that area!' Mr.

Mercer made his report to govern~ent in September, early in September,and he made the principal recommendation,and I quote the recommendation: "That government take all actions available to it to obtain the full, complete, and unrestricted possession of the facilities. at Hermitage and Belleoram•; and that they do it"immediately!' "That two such actions be in the form of a negotiated settlement 1 or the enactment of special legislation to expropriate these properties.

And further that government sell or lease the facilities to a person or company at the earliest date for the mc> .ximum benefit of the people in these communities." Mr. Speaker, the government accepted that recommendation and felt it would be in the 1J?~7 -:::

December 1,1991 '!'? .:?2 ~To. 3903 ah-2 l·~R. MORGAN: best interest~ of ell ~~~c~Yned to p~rsuE a negotiated settlement rather than opt foe expropri~tion. To do this we immediately ~ppointed a i:ea.Jll 1 led again b 1r Mr. i'ier cer, Mr. Graha.Jll tJ!crcer, and consisting of top officials from the Department of Fisheries and from the Department of Justice. And since then they have been constantly holding meetings with all parties involved attempting to reach a settlement.

Besides the Newfoundland government the other parties involved were Touche Ross Limited, the receivers for Sea~ater Products (Nfld) Ltd., th<; company 1 Seawater Products, Mr. t11allace Roberts anc:J Mrs Catherine ~oberts 1 principals of the Seawater Products Company, Dr. Clifford Dobb, an Ontario investor in Seawater Products, the Royal Bank of Canada 1 Fishery Products Limited,and also a Mr. Jack Grant 1an Ontario businessman and again an investor in Seawater Products. These efforts and all these meetings reached a successful conclusion at a final meetii'g which took place last Friday morning .

Because some of the minor 10?:=iR

rec:=mber 1, 1981 Tape No. 3904 F!. - 1 HR. MORGAN: details remain to be cleared u9 before all the legal docume~tati o n ~s finalized, I am not at liberty at this time to reveal the full details of the agreement beca~se of the legal documents being drawn. However I can say that to enable the negotiation to reach this settlement, the Provincial government agreed to pro­ vide the sum of $765,000,and in return for that the Province received full and clear title to all the land, the buildings, the equipment, and building expansionsconnected with these two fish plant operations.

In allrthese assets now include the land, the buildings, equipment and major extension to the plant at Hermitage; also the land, th~buildings, and the equipment and a cold storage fa~ility at Belloram. The remainder of the money, Mr. Speaker, will be used to pay in full the n.onies owed to the fishermen and the plant workers and also to satisfy the debts of the other parties involved in the dispute.

In addition to the Province's contribution, the new operators of these two fish plants, Fishery Products Limited, have invested the amount of $300,000 for the j~ight to use these two fish plants and to also enter into a lease agreement with the Province for the use of these two facilities. Mr. Sp~aker, I say in conclusion that I feel confident that this solution will have the much needed positive economic impact on · the Connaigre Peninsula that the Province had hoped it would.

Our main concern in this situation was to find a means of not only getting these two fish plants re-opened but keeping them open on a regular and unin~errupted basis. Through the successful pursuit of Mr. Graham Mercer's recommendation of settling the dispute 1 0 I~ I:) ... -

Dec2~~e~ 1, ~~Bl Ta;u:~ NO . 3904 EL - 2 t-ffi • t-10P.GAN : by negotiation, I fir.nly believe that we have achievad this go al. Both the =is~ e~en and plant worker~ can now look t:o;:ward to the re;:urn to normal of the5.r fi2hins- industry . And also,as I mentioned,t.hey receive full pay·ment for all monies t.hat •.vere owed to them \-.•hen the ;>:a :1i:s were closed in June . Some might feel the solution \·las a long time coming , ~. Speaker . F.owever,it must be recogni?.ed tha~ any negotiations that in7olve 10 differ~nt

partie s is a time consuming process . As well,I feel that in view of the economic ~~d social cir~urnstances,the route we followed was not only t.'le best one f.or all concerned but t:he Ont! that will produce the most long-term benefits . So , Mr . Speaker, on behalf of th~ Provincial Government, the Fremier and this goverr.ment,and my­ self as ~is minister,! want to extend our sincere thanks and appreciation to ltr . Graham I-lercer and the members of his neg ­ otiating commit tee for a job very well done . SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! 10-=10 n

• Dec. 01, 1981 Tape :-;o • .3JJ.S DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for LaPoile has approximately four minutes. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the people of Bell~ram a:1C: Her :r.i tage will in deed be :;>l ei:! sed to h"'a :r tha.t Fishery Products are returning to their coromunities to op- erate the fish plant in these two communities. Hoti. members are aware that Fishery Products had been in there once already, did a satisfactory job and got kicked out! And, Mr. Speaker, so this indeed will be welcome news by the people in these two communities.

Now I do not understand the arrangement that the hon. gentleman spelled out there for us. It is my understanding that the fish plant in Hermitage was built by the provincial government and it was some kind of a strange and peculiar arrangement that the hon. gentleman made in the beginning that got the situation into the mess that it was in. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! . MR. s. NEARY: So really what they are doing, Mr. Speaker, is they are undoing a mess that they created themselves. It was of their own creation.

I do not know if this is a new philosophy of the party, a new policy or not. 'The si·tuation was indeed long being :unravelled, and I tip ray hat to Mr. Mercer for being able resolve the problem through negotiations. It was a long time coming,as the minister admitted in his statement. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, now after four years trying to straighten out two small fish plants,one in Hermitage and one in Belloram,the provincial government may employ the services of Mr.

Mercer to tackle Grand Bank and Gaultois and all the other fish plants in Newfoundland that are having serious problems and to try to straighten out the crisis in the fishery. These people in Grand Bank and Gaultois and other communities are living under that same clo·lld of uncernity that the hon. 1 J ;\ i~ 'I -:

• D ~c . 01 , 1981 Tape No. 3905 Dl ~ - 2 ==~- s . ~T.E ; .. :--;: . ~ntl ~~~ r ~~= ~= ~~ · .. :- ·tc:.te men -=. So , ~lr . S9ea?<er , th e o nl ~i t:..in -.:hat t can sa y is th<t t \ve vllll ha• Je .::o \-/ .!it a:'!o see what these minor details are . It would ~ee m to me that dley a::-e no1: very min or details. There is a fair ar.1ount of provincial money involved her e, about close to $1 ~illion . MR . MORGAN : f.'I.R . S • ;NE~.RY : MR . MOR GAN: !>I:R . S. NE ARY : $765,00 0. I beg your p<.>.rr\on? $765,000 . And wha t about the $300,0QO? Is Fishery Products pu ttin g that in on the ir 6wn? MR .

HORGAN : An in vestment. HR .S. NEARY : An :investment . So close on $800,000 of pr0'7incial money involvecl. right up front, Mr . Speaker . ~lhat I would like to 'see - I will have to wait , I wil l have to reserve my judgement - - HR . MORGAN : And there is the bill from the fishermen . SOME liON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR. NEARY: I will have to 10:11-i'J

-~ December 1, 1981 Tape 3906 EC - l _ . ..,_.,. ::EA.RY: reserve my j ud~ement on the distribution of that money. SOME HON .. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: · 1 will have to reserve judgement to see how much of that goes to the previous owners of these plants that were built out of taxpa yer mone y. I am not sure if the matter has been - MR. l-iORGAN: company, Seawater. MR. NEARY: The expansion was built by the The expansion was built by the company. The original plants were built by the government, who turned them over to Seawater in the beginning, originally.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I am sure it will be a good Christmas present for the people of Hermitage and Belleoram. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: QRAL QUESTIONS The han. the member for Grand Bank. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question, if I may, to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). On the Burin Peninsula this past weekend the ·-roads ·were extremely slippery, as I would suspect they would be in other parts of the Province. But on Monday morning there were four accidents which occurred between St.

Lawrence and Burin,involving four different motor vehicles,aud it came very close to another major accident where there was a bus transporting thirteen students to the school in Salt Pond. An inquiry was made to the Superintendent of Highways on the Burin Peninsula, and he advised that the policy of the minister's department now in respect of sanding was that sanding would not start until ''e'ight ·o'clock in the morning. 10:ii1'l

December 1,' 1981 Tape 3906 EC - 2 MR. THONS: Nm ·:, as the minister kno ws, most people on the Burin Peninsula are at work ~t eight o'cl0ck in the morning. They are not politicians, they are at ~ork. Is this in fact the policy of ~he minister'~ department, not to start sanding roads in this Province until eight o'clock in the morning? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. ~he Minister of Transportation. :f.m. DAWE: Mr. . Speaker, the policy of the department, of course, is to keep the roads in adequate condition twenty-four hours a da y.

The directions in the policy are that the hours of work, when a specific shift is not on,there is a memb~r of the district or the region involved cruising the roads to determine whether in fact the roads need additional work. If, in his opinion, the roads need sanding or in fact whether the snow plow should be called out at any ~ime in the day, he has authority to do so. In other words, we have twenty-four maintenance of our roads in the Province.

All it takes is that if the road conditions are such that the foreman who is travelling the roads at night or sometime when the shift is not on, all he has to do is call out the necessary crews and the work will be done. MR. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, can the minister explain to me why this particular

section of road, Salmonier Hill between St. Lawrence and Salt Pond 1D :1 iF -

December 1, 1981 Tape No. 3907 so - 1 l-'..R. THOMS: Burin was not sanped at eight o'clock in the morning if the policy of the department is as the minister says it is? There is something contradictory; either the superintendent or the people on the Burin Peninsula in that department are ·not doing their work or there is a policy to that ef=ect. MR. 'SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot comment on specifics of that particular instance but I will certainly check into it for.the hon. member and find out what the reasons were.

But the policy of the department is that there is twenty­ four hours surveillance on the road systems in the Province, and if and when required the crews will be called out at any time within that twenty-four hour period. MR. SPEAK)::R: MR. NEARY: The han. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, there seems to be an awful lot of concern and a lot of people are forecasting a crisis in road maintenanc~ this coming Winter because of a new policy on the part of the minister in connection with just one crew, one crew involved in snow clearing and maintaining icy highways this Winter.

Would the hon. gentleman care to elaborate on a statement that I heard him make this morning that that indeed was a fact 1 that there would only ·be one crew hired this year for snow clearing and maintenance of roads during the coming Winter? MR. THOMS: How can he have twenty-four hour service with one crew? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE:' Mr. Speaker, I have no idea what the ~on. member heard or thi~~s he heard. The situation is that this Winter is exactly the same as last Winter.

Through a better utilization, we think, of staff and equipment, there is in place a maintenance management programme. In most districts of the ~rovince last year there was only one shift at work during 1 0 ~ !i;:;

l" ~ecemher 1, ~9g1 Tap~ ~T0. 3907 SD - ? MR. DAWE: the full Winter. In other parts of i:he Province,whece it became necessary , there ,.,as a second sh1ft hired o:1, in the ~..-estern part of the Province and on the Nor- ·:hern Peninsula and so on and in parts of Central Newfoundland. :Ar.d where that becomes necessary again this ~\'inter there 1vill be ~ second shift hired on.

The mGthod used now is that there is a single shift; t.b..ere is,for the rest of the i;wmty-four hour period,personnel involved in checking the road conditions throughout the particular region • And as I indicated before, if and when it becomes necessary to have the crews on the road to either take, care of ice conditions or to take care of snow conditions, that person has the authority, as foreman, to call out the necessary personnel. If that involves at some poi.nt in the year a second shift 1 then that will be done as well. MR. r-"EARY: Supplemen t.ary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): S~pplementary, the hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, do I understand the hon. gentleman correctly? Is he saying that there will be no cutbacks in the crews that will be hired for snow clearing and maintaining roads th:is coming Winter? Is the bon. gentleman saying that the regular cxew that is hired for snow clearing this -time .of the year wlll indeed be hired? Is that what the hon. gentleman is saying? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister bf Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, what I indicated was that the level of service to the people of this Province will be maintained at the same level that it has always been maintained at, and if and when it is necessary to hire on the extra crews, that will be done. MR. NEARY: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR •. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, the hon. member for LaPo.i:le. 10~1;~

December 1. "!.981 Ta'Oe No. 3908 N-~~r - 1 MR. NEARY: Could t.:.12 h0..'1. gentler:-.c..:1 .bdicate the state of the equipment? Here it is December lst., and I had 2. complaint this morning fro!!' . the Port aux Basques area that the only qrader they had in the area to scrape the ice off a very treacherous road this morning leading to Grand Bay West was broke down, and that they would have to get a replacernen~ grader and it would probably take a couple of days from some other part of the Province.

And corning down on Sunday from my own district- and I have-to commend the Highways people in that partic~lar part of the Province, in Port aux Basques, for the way they cleared the road- but when we hit the minister's own district, I never saw conditions on the highway so treacherous as they were in the minister's own district. Would the hon. g_entlernan tell the House now the state of the equipment? And, Mr.

Speaker, to follow up on what the member for Grand Bank said, are instructions issued to the Highways Depot to salt and sand and clear highways twenty-four hours around the clock, or have they been instructed that they are only to salt and sand highways certain time of the day, say,starting like early morning? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: I have answered tne third question already, Mr. Speaker, and I guess if the hon. member wants to go back and read Hansard he can find out what the answer was.

The fact of the road through my district, I happen to drive across the Province on Sunday evening, leaving Codroy Valley at six in the evening and driving through, and getting into St. John's at four-thirty in the morning, specifically to have a look at the road conditions across the Province; So I am very familiar with the road conditions 1 not only in my own district but all across the Trans-Canada. 10::107 -

December 1, 19S: ~'!R. D.a.WE: Tape ~o. 3908 '"'"'" _ .... ·.~. ~~~ level of m?.i~tenance of - 2 equipment is kept at the hiqhest possible le-.'el, ~1r. Speake:::-. The maintenance foreman, the people involv~d in the department ar~ top notch and th~y do an excellent job. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear~ MR. DAWE: Unfortunately,no one can foresee scmetimes a particular breakdown in a particular area. If that occurs,then whatever is necessary to be done to get a piece of equipment to fill in is done as quickly as possible. I doubt very much if it will take two or thr.ee days,as the member indicates.

But certainly it will be done as quickly as possible. MR. 3PEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. Jl.ffi. FLIGHT: I will yield for a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: Yields for a supplementary by the hon. member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is also to the Minister of Transportation. The hon. Minister of Transportation, I understand, drove across on Saturday. Apparently he did not drive across - MR. LUSH: Sunday. Sunday. MR. ,.BENNE~T: .Oh, _s~nda,y. I .am. so~~.

I droT;e across on Friday night, after the House of Assembly closed, it must have been midnight when I drove between Grand Falls and Gander and I met quite a number of transportation 10:1:i~

j December l, l98l T"'"' "' ~lo. 3909 EL - 1 MR. BENNETT: t~ ucks parked by the side of the ro~d UP.able to m o~e. T~e y were completely annihilated by the road conui tior .s. A.1d I v1as driving twenty miles an hour, Mr. Speati:.er, rnysel f. And after I get horne I have a call from the President of Hawk Industries wondering if I saw his equipment anywhere along the highway. His equipment hauls lime to this East Coast from Daniel's Harbour rnines 1and it costs a lot of money to park vehicles by the side of the road, heavy equipment likethat, Mr. Speaker.

And I am wondering if the·hon. min­ ister is suggesting that the road between Gander and Grand Falls on that night - and I travelled that night and ab­ solutely nothing was on the road in the way of snowclearing equipment and six inches of slush and it was quite hazardous - so I am wondering if that, Mr. Speaker, area in itself is being neglected or if. it is not the minister's responsiblity to have that

section cleared·? Because that was an area tllat was totally neglected . and I am wondering how the minister feels about . having such atrocious conditions for roads. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): portation. MR. I:lA~E: The hon. the Minister of Trans- I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the indications there were slush on the road meant that at least the sand trucks and salt trucks were out a little earlier. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, those of us who have spent a great number of years travelling the roads of this Province learn to expeet that at different parts of the Province you will encounter du-:-ing a Winters drive varying weather conditions. And it would be nice, I suppose, to have all Summer conditions and to be able to have, perhaps 1 J:F:n -:

·T December 1, 1981 Tape No . 3909 EL - 2 M.P . o,;~.-E : a heated high;vay so <:ha~ cile sn ow ;:no ice 1-IOUlci not st~ck to it . Thi s is a little beyond the capabilit~es o: ·~~~s or any octe =- administ=a~ion that "( am a1o~are of . The work will be done in tr.e same effi ci.ent manner as it has always been done and ><~ill be dcne if and whtm it is necessary. ~'/ e have ve::y capable foremen in the v3rious districts of the Province to travel the roads and Nill make that decisi~n based on a ~re~t deal of experience in deal ing wit h the roads in thel-r area , ?>1r . Speaker . MR .

NEARY : Do not be so arrogant . SOt1E HON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh ! M~ . DAi~E : And he .,.,ill certainly , if and when he determines necessary, m~~e sure that the necessary equip~ent is made avai~able . SCME HON . ?>1E!-1BERS : Hear , hear ! l-!R . BENNETT : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . 1 n., I• _., 1 n -: •

December l, 1981, Tape 3910, Page 1 -- apb .t-'.R. SPEAKER(Simms): A s.;;pp.i.ementary, r.he hon. the member for St. Barbe. HR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, rr.y supplementary is directed to the han. the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). Will the Minister of Transportation notify people who last year worked for his department, and ar.e hoping that they might be employed again this year, that they will or they vrill not be employed for this yea:r.;s snow clearing operations? These people have mortgages to meet, Mr.

Speaker, ~nd they are living in suspense, they are wondering if they too have to pack their bags ar.d go to the mainland to seek employment when, indeed, they should be working with the Department of Transportation with which they worked last year. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I indicated earlier that in some districts of the Province Winter conditions indicate that it will be necessary to put on a second shift. That will be determined by the staff in the.area,in consultation with the management staff in St.

John's, to· decide when the appropriate time to bring on the seccnd shift will be. My understanding is that the people who would normally be called back have been notified of this situation. It is very difficult,because we are dealing with an inconsistency with the weather, to be able to establish the sepcific date when they would be employed a second shift, or when that shift might terminate. It has been indicated ~o them, and if and when necessary the second shift will come on. MR. BENNETT: A final supplementary. •' MR. SPKI\.KER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for st. Barbe . 10::111

•T December 1, 1981, Tape 3910, Page 2 -- apb c.S. BEN~>JETT: ~J.::.:..r::~ ~·::.l.l, ~:~. Speaker. The miniscer, I ca~e ic, is sugge~ting - fzom previous statements, not at this moment said, but previously - that you call out workers which operate ·over and above and eight hour shift. I am wondering if the minister's department feels that this will save money, paying overtime? Sometimes a man is on the job more than twelve hours, most certainly more than 2ight if it is overtime. If he works more than forty hours a week it is recognized as overtime.

Is the minister suggesting that by payi~g overtime his department is saving money? MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, it has been indicated over the past couple of years that this is in fact true, that in areas where a second shift was in .Place and was not necessary at all, at the time it was found that the actual work time involved in the second shift was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 30 per cent.

When it reaches a point of overtime on a single shift, where they start getting into where it would be better, economically better to have on a second shift than to pay some overtime, then that certainly will be a consideration, 10::11?

• i December 1, 1981 Tape 3911 EC - 1 HR. Dil.l·ffi ; but our experience to date is that it is much more econom1.cal to cont:i.nue and still provide the same level of service by paying overtime in cerr.ain ins-cances. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. The hon.the member for Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the President of the Council, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland's Acting Minister - SOME HON. ME~ffiERS; Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: MR. F::!:.IGHT: (Mr. Marshall). Order, please! Order, please! - the Minister of Energy The question, Mr.

Speaker, is: In the past year we were led to believe in Newfoundland and in this House of Assembly that Mobil Oil wo~ld ·be presenting its development plans for offshore either in late Summer 1981 or the Fall of 1981. Obviously, we are into the Winter of 1981, and there do not appear to be any development plans prepented to this point in time. Would the minister tell the Hcuse what the status is now, why they have not been presented and when we can expect the development plans of Mobil to be presented? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSH1\ .LL: Mr.

Speaker, the development plan that is required to be presented by Mobil is a plan that has been required to be presented pursuant to the provincial regulations that the han. gentlemen oppose, as well as the han. gentlemen oppose our efforts to gain control of our offshore. Given that that is the situation, 1 en 1 q

Decembe~ 1, 1981 Tape 3911 EC - 2 l'!R. l'IARSHALL: Spea.!~er 1 :-.!cbil ha~Je !:eer; informed t:hat the Government of chis f'rovince requi.t·e a development plan to be provided and .• of course, th.j..s will be a p].an as to the: w2.y in which Mobil plans to develop this resource in the offshore. Mobil is in the course, I understand, of preparation of the same and same will be provided in due course.

If Mobil asks for any extensions of this, as far as the government is concerned, the government will examine such a request, but will ~xarr.ine it very stringently, because we are anxious to get on with the development of the offshore in this Province. And the development, of course, depends upon a resolution of the offshore issue, which in turn depends upon the outcome of the negotiations ~pen which the government is not going to comment. Suffice it ·t9. say, though, Mr.

Speaker, that these negotiations themselves may not have even been necessary if the han. gentlem~n there opposite and their five fellows in Ottawa,who say 'Aye, aye, aye' to everything the f~deral government says,had agreed to support the Province of Newfoundland and realize the interests of the people of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER {Simms): Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, ~be hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, this government have staked out 1 over the past couple of years, two or ~hree positions that were non-negotiable with regard to our offshore. Now we have discussions, negotiations going on with Ottawa, we have development plans delayed. I am wondering if the government is still standing on - if these are still positions that are non-negotiable? 1 [] ~ 1

Dece~ber 1, 1981 Tape 3911 EC - 3 HR . FLIGHT : 'fhe first Oil.; : we;..:.;: ask the minister about is the poaition that government tOOA with regard to th e ga:; t!1at is present in the Hiber~ia structure .

And the minister of the day - the gove~ent 's position \•l<oS, 'W e \"ill not develop the oi l. ~·7e wiJ,l not go ihto production and development of oil ur.J ess there is gas - Or! gas development there will be no clearing of gas or reinjection .' Mobi~ point.ed out at the ti:ne and 1 am sir.tply asl<in; for tne information , the operators pointed out at the time that that may be so but it could delay the development of oil. \~at is the position now? Is that still the position of government, that ~~ere will be no cil development without a concurrent development of gas? 1 0 :i i c: •

• I ,, ' December 1,1981 Tape No. 3912 ah-1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. President oi the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, as tempted as I am to respond to the hon. member ,I have to insist on the position taken by the government, \lhich ·l'lill continue to be taken during the course of the ongoing negotiations with respect to the offshore,that the government is not going to make one comment one way or the other with respect to matte~s pertai~ing to the offshore for fear that some statement that is made can be taken out of context and thereby endanger the negotiations themselves.

And I am sure the han. member can understand it. In due -::ourse the ;-esults of the offs .hore negotiations will obviously be made public,but I think that this is one instance,andthere are certainly in the minority rather than the majority and very much in the minority,whereby public statements as to the position that the goverTh~ent has taken no matter what the question may be can only serve, I think, to derogate from the possibility of success in negotiations 1 the last thing that we would wish, Mr. Speaker. MR.FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR •. l>PEAKE_:R: A supplementary. The han. member for Windsor-Buchans.

MR.FLIGHT: May I remind the minister that my question was not related to the negotiations going on between Ottawa and Newfoundland. It was related to the discussions going on between the operators and the Province relative to the development of our resource out there. That question was directed to the minister in as far as his position with the developers 1 because they laid their position out very clear and the Province was not prepared to accept that position. So it has nothing to do with the development - my question has nothing to do with the 1 Q ::l 1 ~ -

Decernber 1,1981 Tape No. 3912 ah-2 MR. FLIGHT: ongoing negotiations. It has to do Hith the governrr:ent's ;::-.: sit.ion, the te::-:: .s c.nd conditi 0 ~~" und~r which they wi Ll accept the development plan. No ~ let me ask the minister another question, Mr. Speaker. It was the government's position in this House that there wo'.lld be no development of oil, no developmentplans would be accepted, the wells would stay.capped for twenty-five years unless ~ one of the conditions would have to be,the reactivation of Come By Chance.

Now I want to ask the minister is that still the position of this goverrJnent,that no development will be accepted or no agreements will be gone into without th·2 reactivation of Come By Chance being part of that deal? Now the previous minister stood in this Bouse and there was a standing ovation given to him less than six months ago when he made that statement. Is that still the position of the Newfoundland government? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. President of the Council. · MR. MARSHALL: If the han. gentlemen there opposite, Mr.

Speaker, are .ever standing in a standing ovation to this government, if they ever did, Mr. Speaker, we would be very concerned. The fact of the matter is , Mr. Speaker, whilst the negotiat.ions a.r~ ongoi!lg .I am not going to mak!= any co~ment one way or the other with respect to it,except with respect to the Come By Chance oil refinery. The han. member will recognize,and I know will give due credit to the fact,that it was through the efforts of this government that prior to - it appeared, Mr.

Speaker, no so long ago when this government took office that unfortunately the prospects of the Come By Chance refinery were very dim. It appeared, Mr. S:t=eaker, at that time that the British interest, Kleinwort Benson and the other financiers were about to dismantle the Come By Chance oil refinery like a mechano 11J::li7 -

_..,ft December 1,1981 Tape No . 3912 ah- 3 MR . Mil.RSID\LL : set and move it somev1here else, and this government intervened . This gove~ent =.:~te:::-,·e.-~e-:!, Nr .

Speaker , to th-= ext em: that it \•ias very forb :.::ate in interesti ng Petro - -=anada in the fu.ture of this a:td we have now Petro-Canada very , ~ery, much invo lVP.d in thi s particular re f iner y . lmd the hon . gentlemen there opposite can take confidence in the fact that we are goi ng to ao ~verything vre possibly can vli th every ounce of energy we have to s ee that that refine~y continues in operation and of course it would be most convenient for it to operate on the oil, the crude oil from the Hibernia structure : But 1:.1:1 iR

Dec . 0:!. , 198 1 Ta.~ e ::.: . ::! : D:7 - 1 !-7R. W. ~~ .'-'St!_!I _TT.: l•!hether or ::.ct t:!:!at :;cc~· .-:-:c Spea.ker, relat?.s to the o££s::o= c :-~ -sr.; -:Jtiaticus. I }-.. ope :: 2....~ giv::..ng tne hon. member as much info~ation as I can,but I refuse to respond to anythi.~Jg of what may.be a pre-condition one way ~r another with r~spect to the ongoing negoti~tions. MR. G. FI,IGHT: A final suppla~entary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SL11Ills) : A final s'upplementary, the han. member. for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, the backing off j s becoming obvrou-s, ·-ehe "backing ·off from positions is becoming obvious~ Let me ask Newfoundland's acting Minister of Energy tMr. Marshall) this: in Central Newfoundland over the weekend -~e:-Prenlier was making statements about this government's intent·ion of moving oil from Come by Chance to Gander. And he was speculating a.s to whethe:r we would be using a pipeline, whether we 'would be using high road modes. Now, Mr. Speaker, the question to the President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) is .when the Premier was talking about the moving of oil from Come 3y Chance to Gander,was he thinking in terms of an immediate re-opening of Come By Chance? Does he know something we do.not know? Is Come BY Chance going to be re-opened? Or is the oil he is talking about moving from Come !y Cha .nce to Gander co.-1tingent on our getting into pro­ duction c.ud re-activating b1e Come By Chance oil refinery s~x·or ~even or eight years down the road? MR;SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I will refrain fr~m certain comments that I am tempted to make with respect to the hon. gentleman's question. But the fact of the matter .is that the han. the Premier was obviously referring to the re-activation of the Come By Chance refinery and the dedication of some of that product to the International 1 u ::l •j 0 -

,Jec. 01, 1981 Tape No. 3913 mv - 2 l>IR. W. l·lARSHA.I:L: h.irpori: at Gc..l.l. ...... ._: . .~.:. 6..~..1........ ~... .. ..~. .... 6 .J.5 what we will stri~e to do but at the present time, Mr. Speaker, that is a part of t::e pe:r.j.phery negotiations. and is very much of a great deal of concerr, to us. But the major concern, of course, is the re-activation and the re-opening of the Co~e By Chance r~finery. MR. G. WARRl!:N: NR. SPEl\J<ER (Sirmns): Mountains. MR. S. NEARY: MR. G. WARREN: NR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Torngat A supplementary, !>ir. Speaker. I will yield, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. merr~er for Torngat Mountains yeilds to the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEA:l.Y: Would the hon. President of the Council (Mr. Narshall} ineicate to the House whether or 'not the matter of the Come By Chance oil refinery was the subject of discussion during a recent visit to the Province by Petro­ Canada offic ~ als, a subject of discussions between the offi­ cials of Petro-Canada and Mobil Oil will review to Mobil Oil re-activating the oil refinery at Come By Chance? MR. SPEAKER (Si!:uns): The hon. President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, that particular subject was a matter of discussion between officials of the governrnent 1 including the Minister of Finance,and the Vice­ President of operations of Petro-Canada with respect to the re-activation of the Come By Chance refinery. Certainly the prospects of Hibernia are a matter of very significance to the operation and the continued mothballing of the Come By Chance refinery. In actual fact,where there is a crude oil source so close to us that is one of the - MR. FLIGHT: You are backing off it (inaudible) . 1[!;1?n -

........... ....:..._t-J~ :·~0. 3 ;.:;,_.:; L/¥'1 - .) ~!~ . !'7 .. ~:...- .R. S:.£. ·: ,. -:- : :pca:::ar, ·-- ·~ ..... v.u .• J..~ -:::-.c ·;entleman. v . .-an"Cs an answer I ar; r:-retJareci to gi .. ~;-e it, but I 2..:1: '··''- pr-epareC: to gi·ve it ovE:r .:he ca-c.-ca1.ls or 1:ne member. SC: ,l.E HO J. ~lE:.!BERS : Oh, oh! 1-'lR. W. !-L;.R SHALL: You knm,,, that was a matter of discussion between the government 1ll::l?'! . \"

•, :. :: -.";:..; _;: .....,_.' ......... ,...... '10 1 >1 --· ... - ··'-"• ...J---- MR. MARSHALL: and Petro-Canada. I am not m'rself privy to any discussions tha.t occurred bet~veen Petro- Ci'_.c!.ada - MR. FLIGHT: No wonder Leo Barry is out. MR . SPEAKER (Simms ) : Ord~r, please~ MR. MARSHALL: All right, Mr. Speaker. I will give the hon. gentleman an answer afterNards if he can keep his frier.d quite afterwards. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: ~lR. SPEAKER: hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I do not mind. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. I yield. Mr.

Speaker, I have a supplementary. A further supplementary, the The hon. gentleman confirmed that this was a matter of discussion between the Newfoundland Gov~rnment and the officials of Petro-Canada. Did Petro-Canada indicate during these discussions that they would be offering the oil refinery at Come By Chance to Mobil Oil to reactivate even long before Hibernia came onstream, using a supply of crude oil that they had access to from other parts of the world, rather than wait for Hibernia oil? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: No, Mr.

Speaker, Petro-Canada is striving, and I believe earnestly striving, to get an alternate supply of crude oil from other areas of the world to get the refinery in operation in anticipation of the offshore development. And of course it would not be a 100 per cent operation but it would be somewhere in the vicinity of 50 per cent or 60 per cent. But I am not aware of any bilateral talks between Petro-Canada and Mobil with respect to that. 10::1??

December 1, 1931 MR. SP·FlA!O':?. (.Sb1:c:

o) M·::mntains. Mll . WARREN: Tape No. 3914 Nl-1 - 2 The han. ree~~er fa~ ~orng2~ Mr. Speaker , rr:y question is to the l'linister of the Environment. MR. 'l'HONS: :fl'iR. WARREN: lotR. NEP...RY: YiR. WARREN: Nho is he? Some time ago, Mr. Speaker - Is he dead or alive? - there was a weather station belonging to the Ger.rr.ans fo~nd in Cape Chidley, Labrador, and I would just like to ask the Minister of ~he Environment who claims ownepB~ip of this weather station? :MR. NEARY: '.1R. SPEAKER: Environment. MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. Jo.NDREWS : A good question. The han. Minister of the A very urgent question.

Speaking as the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth, responsible for historic resources of Newfoundland, the Government of Newfoundland does claim it. MR. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member f<Jr To.r~igat Mountains. MR. WARREN: My supplementary, Mr. Spea~er, could the minister clarify why the weather station was dismantled and taken up to Ottawa? MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREWS : The hnn. Minister of Culture, Mr.

Speaker, the weather station being referred to is on loan to the Museums Canada people for restcration, for research, and for temporary storage until we find a proper place and have sufficient funds to restore it to its proper place. 1 [J ::~·; ~ :.

Dec<!;_;_ ,._.- l. l9 Sl MR . tvARREN: ~..R. SPE...l\KER (Simms) : member f<)r Torngat ~lount ains. MR. N"ARR3N: O: g,~-: No .. 391~ ~n; - 3 A su pplem entar y , Mr . Speaker. A supple~nta=y~ t~e · ~c~ . .Mr . S pea.lt~r , I would like for t he minister to clar ify , number one 1 temporary , and I would also lik e to ask the rr~nister SOME HON. MEMBF;RS : Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. WARREN: - I would also like to ask the minister - its proper place was where it was found - why was it not left where it was found? MR. SpEAKER: Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREWS: The hon. Minister of Culture, Mr.

Speaker, it was deemed by officials of our department, our museums people and in consultation with Museums Canada.people, who are very much more expert at this type of :natter t that the whole station should be preserved in the proper way, which means some classification of the equipment, some historic research, a proper housinq of the facility, if it is going to be preserved at all to protect it from the weather. 1 0::1 i' .

Dece~her 1, 1981 Tape No. 3915 EL - 1 MR. ANDREWS: The best people in Canaaa to do that are museum of Canada people. It is on loan to those people for those purposes. I:t does not belong' to the Govern­ ment of Canada. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary, M!.Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. memb~r for Tvrngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister is it a policy of tlle government that he is part of of when they find any artifacts,as has been in the past se veral y~s, t.he first thing to do with them is ship them up to Ottawa or ,to Halifax or some"<here else. t-fuy not keep them in the Province where they belong? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth has about fifteen seconds. MR. ANDREWS: I am reminded by my learned colleague that it is the rerr~ants of Naziism,and-I certainly think it is 1 and it was very much of high technology of its day.

It is not the policy of the Government of Newfoundland to ship artifacts out of the Province. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, it is a declared policy of this government to ~eep _all the c:.rtifacts within the Province,but we do rec­ ognize that there is expertise in these matters that we do not have in this Province and many other provinces for res­ toration, for historical research and that authority and ability is in Otta'tl'a in many cases, and in some other prov­ inces too where we borrow expertise. Theyalso come to us, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: expired.

Hear, hear~ The time for Oral Questions has 1:J.i/L:;

De cember 1, 198 1 Tape NO . 3915 EL - 2 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL CO,:.DII1'7:t:J::q MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon . the President of t.''le Council . ?-lR . MARSHALL : v~ . Speaker , on behalf of the bon . the Premier ,! ta ble the report of the Prcvincial Ad­ visory Council on the Statu s of Women for New foundl and and Labrador for the year ending March 31st, 1981 . SOME HON. ~~MBERS : Sear , hear ! S0!-1E HON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh ! MR . SPEAI<ER : Order , please ! ORDERS OF '!'HE DAY second reading o:f a bill , "An Act To Amend The Department Of Finance Act" . (B ill No . 113) MR.

SPEAI<ER : The last day debate was ajourned by ~~e hon . member £or Eagle River (Mr .Riscock),who I believe had spoken for approximat<:!ly five minutes . The hon . member for Eagle River . MR. HISCOCK : Thank you , Mr . Speaker . With regard to the re-organizing of the Department: of Finance, it is extremely important to us in this Province to re-organize the department and as I said I am very plea sed to see the government going in this direction . Also , just 10::1/1=!

December 1, 1981 Taoe No. 3916 SD - l MR. HISCOCK: making a corrunent, l1.r. Speaker, I am rathe~ pleased that ;ve finally do have a solution to the Hermitage- Belleoram plant. But I am a little bit concerned_. it took them four years, They have had a major disruption in that area, four years this government allowed the people to go through such economic problems in that area. And again, Mr. Sp~aY.er, I hope that t~is government also has a solution for the people of Gaultois - and we actually know that they are after writing ·~aultois off and basi~ally they will get into resettlement. MR .

NORGAN: That is the Liberal policy. JYIR. 'CHOM3 : Can I quote you on that? MR. MARS~L: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Sirruns): Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. President of the Council. MR. M._li,.RSHALL: Mr. Speaker, perhaps it is just as well early in .the afternoon to try to get the hon. member on track. We are debating a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Finance Act", which is a restructuring of the Department of Finance.

The hon. member is now talking - his first sentence was with respect tc the re-opening of the Hermitage and Belleoram plants, now he is talking about Gaultois. It would seem to me, Mr. Speaker, that the principle of the bill does not admit to a debate which in essence is the same debate as one would nave on a budget or Throne Speech. MR.

SPEAKER: Well 1 to the point of order, I realize that in previous days that debate has been fairly flexible, but I think it is a legitimate point of order and that second reading debate is supposed to be on the orinciple of a bill and members are suppose to try to confine their remarks to the principle of the bill. And the principle of the bill clearly is outlined on the inside page of the bill, Bill No. 113, and I wo•1ld ask hon. members to try to contain their remarks to the principle of the bill and not to be irrelevant or else the Chair 1 q., )" 7 lo ,I . -:

December 1, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): relevancy. MR. HISCOCK: Tape No. <Ql F> SD - 2 will have to call the members to Mr. Speaker, but with regard to this bill being a money bill , J; am sure as both sides of t.his government have had - MR. SPEAKER: Maybe if I could just add further clarification, I do not consider the bill to be a money bill. It is not a money bill in the sense of a debate on money bills \~hen you are debating estimates and so on. It is an administration bill and clearly the principle of the bill is there. MR. HISCOCK: The hon. member for Eagle River. The administration, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask in some way some guidance for what I can say on this, i_f it is an adminil3tration bill or a money bill. The question that I have asked -and I asked yesterday, what are we going to do when we .do ~e-organize the Department of Finance and what are we going to be doing with the money? And that is the principle of the bill and tha .t is the part that I am addressing, asking what w.e are going to be doing with. this money once we collect it.

With regard to that, there is no sense of organizing unless we have revenue corning in and I am very pleased that we are making a step forward, small as it may be 1 with. the Hermitage plant and thereby getting more revenue coming into this department,and the Deputy Minister of Finance and the Comptroller have s.ome money corning into their department. But the other

part 10::1?~

•J December 1, 1981 lape 2917 EC - 1 ~.ffi. HISCOCK: that I am rather ~~~~9rned with, Mr. Speaker, in this bill ar'.C. in our own g:y;er:u:1.e::c~, is ~hat necessary c~tbacks are going to take place under this reorganization of the Dep~rtment of Finance and in, what ways are they going to end up getting more money for the department? I will go as far as to say that we are going to se~ drastic cutbacks in education, in health, in social services, in transpo~tation. The Minister of ·Transportation (Mr. Dawe) has basically s&id it today. So with regard to that, Mr. Speaker, the Comptroller - MR. MARSHALL: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): OL a point of order, ~- Speaker. On a point of order, the hon. the President: of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The point of order, Mr. Speaker, is this, that the hon. gentleman hus adequate opportunity to discuss the items that he is. talking about, he is talking about cutbacks in fina~ces and what have you, and Your Honour has just a moment ago ruled quite rightly that this bill related to the administration of the Department of Finance and did not pertain to financial matters. Now, the hon. member persists in continuing on in this particular vein. MR. NEAFY: MR. SPEAKER: the member for LaPoile.

MR. NEAFY: To the ·poi:nt of ··order,·· Mr. ·-speaker. To the point of order, the han. Obviously, the hon. the President of the Council this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, is trying to restrict and muzzle debate on this particular bill. Your Honour will reca~l yesterday afternoon we had a ruling, and I think Your Honour was in the Chair, that we could have a wide-ranging debate on this bill, because, Mr. Speaker, this bill does have far-reaching implications as far as the administration of the Deparb~ent of Finance is concerned. It divides the two responsibilities, 10:1/ll

:,· I December l, ~~u~ Tape 3911 EC - 2 1'IT~. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated :~·es-.:ercay. It separates the Comptrcl.:-=.c cf. the Trec..,;~.::-v from the Deputy Minister of Finance. Now we v7ill have two individuc.ls, a Deput~ · ~lini.ster of Finance and a Comptroller of the Treasury, and in the process of doing that, Mr.

Speaker, and the application of the provincial Seal on all documents and contracts to be se~n by th8 Comptroller before they are signed by ministers, all these items have far-reaching implications which makes it possible to have a wide-ranging debate on the Department of Finance on this particular bill. SOME HON. ~~ERS: Hear,. hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Well, to the point of order, perhaps I can outline again what I see is the principle of the bill, and it is clearly contained in the explanatory note, I think, on the inside of the bill.

It says, "This Bill would amend The Department of Finance Act to reflect the alli~inistrative changes in the structure of the Department cons~quential upon the creation of the separate position of Comptroller General of Finance as set forth in c.9 of the 1981 Statutes." MR. NE.I\RY: Financial Administration Act (inaudible)? MR. SPE Z-\.KER: No, it reflects the administrative chang~s in the Department of Finance. MF. NE:l>...RY: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: Two depart:ments. So in my opinion that is the principle of the bill and members should try to contain themselves to what is in that principle.

And I do not believe that long range, '1'7ide-ranging debate really is pel."TTlissible. MR. NEARY: Read the clause. 101-::n

Oecemo ez: 1, l~!Sl Tape 3917 EC - 3 MR. SP~~~~R (Simm s): T ,.,.avn :~"! ~ ~ ll t.ht?! - l"'"~t~s,g s , ! '=~~ ass..:~-: ": ~ -: he~. :;~ e :::e±2~ !::;~ L.aPc:.!.= ,::= . ~:-2:! ~y ) , ana I can assure :-ton . ;:;embers as well that if the CI:ai= ~ae ls a member is bein~ irrelevant then he will have ~o call the member to o~der , because , 3S everybody is aware, parliamentary procedure is that on second readings me.'llbers should contain their debate and dis cussion to the principle of the bill as outlined. I hope that is cl£.ar . Eagle Rivc; r. HR . !H'5COCK : The hon . the member for t·U".

Spe3.ker, other members spoke in ~his House with wide range . And with respect to the Chair , l hope that I will not continue to be interrup~ed and I will address mysel£ to the bill . With regard to splitting - t.he idea 1 0 :1 :1 .,

·December l, 1981, Tape 3~18, Page 1 -- apb ~R. 3ISCQCK : of the Comptroller General a~d ~lsa the Dep~t y Minister of Finance 1 with regard to ti1at reorganization, what effect is that having on the Minister of Transportation(Mr. Dawe) or the 2ep~ty Minister? What ef=ect is that going to have ?~ the Department of Education and the Deputy Minister of Ecuation? What effect is that going to have on the ~1inister of Fisheries and the Deputy Minister of Fisheries, and all the other departmen~s?

And it is going to have quite a range because it is going to give a splitting of the departments, and it is going to give both people a lot more power, and it is going to, again, as I said, split this department. One of the things that I am asking, and I will ask the Minister of Finance(Dr. Co~~ins1 to address this when he does s~ 11.olhat is it going to d.? to these departments?

How much money is needed by these departments and what effect are the Comptroller General and the Deputy Minister what are they saying to .the various other departments in the necessary budget review that is taking place no~, that the Minister of Education(MsYerge) admitted. What cutbacks are going to take place under this reorganization? And if we are ·not having .the reorganization, Mr. Speaker, just for the sake of reorganization, we want,the people of this Province want and ha\ .. e the right to knol'' the financial state of this Province.

I believe that uader this act, with the administration of the Department of Finance, :ve have the right to ask in this House for accountability. We have not been getting it from any of the ministers so far, and, as the member for Carbonear(Mr. Moores) said, and I totally agree with him, this government is operating under deception, deceiving the people of this Province, and 1D~:i')

·. ~ "' December 1, 1981, Tape 3918, Page 2 -- apb HR. HISCOCK: is deceiving theffi, for example, with the trans~ortation, the crews, the cutbacks that are going to take place in Education and Social Services and that. On of the things, again, that is a matter of concern to myself with regard to this bill is that with regard to the Department of Education we are going to have such cutbacks that we are going to go back - M.~. OTTENHEIMER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER(Siroms): A point of order has been raised by the hon. the Minister of Justice .. SOME HON. MEMB~RS: Oh, oh! MR. OT'IENiiEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, the Chair ruled a few minutes ago that the principle of the bill dealt with the creation by this statu~e of a separate pos~tion of Comptroller General of Finance. The principle · of the bill has absolutely nothing to do with any cutbacks or not cutbacks in the Department of Education, With more teachers or less teachers, more schools or less schools, it has' absolutely nothing to do with that. And it is not tha .t J. really care one iota if the hon. gentleman wants to talk about that or not, but it is important, as a matter of fact it is essential,that the rulings of the Chair be uphela by this House.

That is what is important, and that is important to merr~ers on both sides. So I would suggest that the hon. member is violating the ruling of the Chair. MR. NEARY: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am getting more convinced, as I listen to hon. gentlemen raise points of order, that apart from the Minister of Finance(Dr.Collins) 1U::l:1 1 •

December 1, 1931, Tape 3918, Page 3 -- apb MR. NElL~Y: nobody on tnat side o£ the House read this bill. This bill, Mr. Speaker, has far-reaching implications, as I said a few moments ago. Yo~r Hono~r read the p~ovisions - MR. MORGA.. "l : What is "the= matter or (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Your Honour said he read the provisions of the bill, I have read the provisions of the till, the principle of the bill is outlined in the explanatory notes. But my hon. friend does not have to stick to the explanatory notes, that is what the government is saying. Mr. Speaker, for instance, -C-:IS,n the opening paragraph of this bill,

Definitions, "'Department' means the Department of Finance constituted by this Act'. That in itself would open up the debate, would throw it w~de open, Mr. Speaker. I would submit · that the hon. gentlemen, in their rush to get the House closed, are now rising on points of order to try to muzzle debate. .Well, I can tell the hon. gentlemen they are not going to get the House closed this afternoon. !J'.R. THOMS: Or tomorrow afternoon. 1 n :-D 1 . ...

December 1,1961 Tape No. 3919 ah-1 MR, SPEA~ER _(_§i:_nuns) : Are hon. members finished? With respect to the poinc oi ~rder, I think I have already given .a. ruling on a nurnber of occasions and it is very difficult for the C~air to try tc enforce it if members are not going to pay attention to the ruling. I will try to say it again as clearly as I can. The points made by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) are. certainly interesting points,but I do not necessarily agree that ~V'ide ranging debate is allowed on second reading.

I think the procedural references that anybody will look np will tell y-Ju that debate en second reading must be confined to the principle of the bill. But the principle of the bill,as the hon. member fer LaPoile (Mr. Neary) even indicated himself,is shown on the explanatory note on the inside of the cover. But the Chair is also saying that that is the principle of the bill,which is to separate the two positions,a move actually I think that has already been done 1I presume 1and this is to change the Finance Act to merely bring it into line __ :Wit.~ the act that had been dealt with before, the 1981 statutes.

So I hope now that I can ma~e myself clear again; the point of debate during the second reading is to deal with the principle of the bill. Now that is clear. Everybody agrees with that. The principle of the bill in this case,as outlined,as the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) told me and told everybody else, is outlined on the outside of the bill under explanatory notes and the principle of the bill is to deal with the separation of the two positions Comptroller General from the Deoartment of Finance. MR. UEARY: (Inaudible l .. MR.

SPEAKER: No, that is in the rest of the bill,but the principle of the bill is to separate the two positions of Deputy Minister of Finance and Comptroller General. 1 [!:i.it:;

December 1,1981 Tape No. 3:119 ah-2 AN HON .MEMBER: that has. And all the implications that MR. SPEAKER (Si~ms) : No .. I din not say that. The hon. m~mber for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock). I do not wish to take up all his time. I am so=ry,but I have to try to make it clear. The han. merr~er ~as about ten minutes remaining. MR. HISCOCK: Maybe I will stand up , Mr.Speaker, for ten minutes and then probably it will be a point of order taken on that if I do not say anything.

With regard to separating this department,it is having far reaching impl .ications and the people of this Province do not realize the implications it is having. They do not realize the financial state of this Province. The economy has never been worse. It has never been worse in our history and we are trying to find out various things and ask questions but we are not getting answers. We.want to talk about the financial situation and have a Qebate on it w!th'regard to the organization of_ this department. Look at the reorganization of the House, Mr. Speaker, that we have got into.

We do not even have the Throne Speech finished yet or the Bujget Speech and yet, Mr. Speaker, here we are getting into reorganization. If we are only getting into reorganization, Mr. Speaker, for the sake of itself and not letting the people know the implications that it is having 1then the state of this Province is even worse of than we actually realize.

But again the question I have to ask,and I hope that the Minister of Finance (n~.r.oJlins) will address it, . -- - .. . in the cutbacks of the $16 million or the $30 million that the government needed and has gone in the hole this year and we are borrowing that much more now on current account, the question I want to know and ask is that with reg ·ard to splitting up this department,what are 1 D:l.i~

0ecen 1.oer l, 1951 ... ..,,. ... ~:,J.J....- c..h-3 ~...i..;;e ~c . M:R. HISCOCK: going to be the cutbacks? 1-<ha t is t~a C~~?troll~r General say~~g to thG ~a~~s~1s other ministers 2Gd Ce~uty Ministers ~~d the Deputy ::in~st~= of Finance? W!1at is he saying to these ministers is he saying, 'I need to balance the books, and ho, .·; am I 1 11 '' ~ 7 :._1 ,1 , I ' 'l

December 1, 1981 Tape No. 3920 EL - 1 MR. HISCOCK: going to bal~nce the books? You have to do this, you have to cut back this, you have to cut down on the hospitals, you ha ve to cut down on the schools, you have to hi? .Ve only one crew for the Department of Trans ·portation." And the end result is it is going to be better financial management ther. fi~e, fine. But if it is not then we, as a Province, Mr. Speaker, are rather small with population, rich in resources but now economically, as I Si?.id 1 we could not have it worse.

And now we, the members of this House, asking questions on ,behalf of our constituents, cannot get the answers, cannot get the answers to have a debate on the economy, to have a debate with regard to the financial situation of this Province~, And with regard to this bill, I only hope that by separating the Comptroller General and the Deputy Minister of Finance that they will have a better organization this coming year than they had last year of bringing in a Budget that now. is $30 million short and having to find out that all the projections were not done i~ a prud- ent way, that we are finding ourselves now having to cut ' back left, right and centre.

And I am rather concerned about the social advancements that we have made in this Province with regard to education, wlth regard to .health and social services and other progra1nmes in this Province. They are now in jeopardy, Mr. Speaker, and I hope that the Comptroller General will do something about it and the Deputy Minister of Finance will do something about it in the re-organization of this de- partment. It is unbelievable that a govern- ment, after bringing in a Budget, finding out now that they are ~30 million short. It is unbelievable,and with all the 1 fl'1i~ lJ ,1 . ..

Tf I Dece!T'cc·c- l, 1981 Ta!Je No. 3920 EL - 2 MR. HISCOCK: closing of the mines and the fish plants and other construction industries happening in this Province it is frightening. Our people are in a state of anxiety and want some answers and want some reassurance and want sc~e·hope. There is no question that we have a great potential future and - HR. MORGAN: (r:naudib~ e). J:.1R.

THC!:!§_:_ That is sor·.ething you are not going to get from this side. l1R.HISCOCK: - there is hope,but we are not getting it from this government and from this administration and I do hope by tightening up this department that we will have more planning, more control over the economy and a great- er sense of direction that has been lacking. It has been lacking for the past ten years and it is continuing to take place. So in re-organization of. this department the main question will be,will this put the Province on a better sound economic footing? And I, for one, hope it is.

I, for one, hope that we will settle all the industrial disputes in this Province with regard to the mining. I hope that the mines are opened and are opened soon. • With regards to the fish plants, I hope they are also opened soon. But this government is giving a rather indifferent attitude to a lot of things and it is also denying the people of this Province information. This was the administration, Mr. Speaker, in this Province that was going to give the freedom of information. Here we are now organizing, 10~,1l1

~e~2:r~e::- "'""\~ 1 ..... .;. MR. HIS':OCK: reorganizing the Department of Finance, and we cannot eve~ find out what our financial situ ation is in this Pr ov ince. ~~ d I for one, as a merr~er of this House, think we have a right to know what the financial situation of this Province is. If we actually knew, Mr. Speaker, how we were,we would, as I said before, it would almost really be f~ightening. Because we are on the verge of bankruptcy, if we are net bankrupt. We are borrowing, Mr. Speaker, we are borrowing on our future. We are borrowing on our future.

And I for one hcpe that future comes that much more sooner. bur Feople have a right to know what this reorganization is going to do and whether it is going to tighten up the mismanagement of this government. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! the waste and MR •. HISCOCK: The Naskaupi-Montagnais, for example, I hope the Comptroller General, and the Deputy Minister will do something about this, of $3 million being spent on . helicopters when the Inuit and the Naskaupi natives - MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! Order, please!

Perhaps f~r further clarification, just one further time, and I neglected earlier to read any references for hon. members and I know that it is difficult to provide guidance if I ,do :not provide some references for you, but may I refer hon. members to Beauchesne, fifth edition, paragraph 739, page 225 - AN HON. MEMBER: Beauchesne? MR. SPEAKER: - Beauchesne, which says, "On the second reading of an amending bill it is the priciple of the amending bill,not the principle of the act, which is the 'business under consideration'.

Debate and proposed amendments must therefore relate exclusive to the principle of the amending bill." May I also refer hon. members to the same reference book, Beauchesne's fifth edition, and paragraph 73~ which I think is even much more clear, and it says, "The 1 u :i ltfl

DecelllDer l, 1~81 .ld.}-1~ ,.o . .}~;2j_ J.~i'·l - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Sim.-ns) ; second readir ... g is the ~ .. c.s t. important stage through which the bill is required to pass; for its whoie principle is then at issue and is affirmed or denied by a vote·of the House. I"!: is not regular on this occasion, however, to discuss in detail the clauses of the bill." So that m&y provide a lit~le more guidance for hon. members.

And I am sure helicopter rides, or whatever it was the hon. member was about to refer to, really has got very little to do with the separation of the DeFuty Minister of F·inance' s posi t:ion .:md the Hon. members would almost Comptroller General's posi~ion. have to agree with me on that one. The hon. member for Eagle River has about three minutes. MR.

HISCOCK; With regard to the dividing of the department, I hope again that when we have the negotiations with Ottawa on the offshore with regard to the transfer payments, with regard to equalization, with regard to post-secondary education, that I hope that the Deputy Minister cf .Finance will know what is going on between the various other departments.

And I -am ·very ··p:::ease'd 'that the Secretary of State for pest-secondary education (Mr.Regan), is going to be putting more money into this Province and into the Atlantic Provinces because we have the lowest enrollment of students in post-secondary education in Canada. But to listen to this government you would never know that they are going to be doing this and putting the influence of our younger people ion the future of our Province. Here we have the Minister of Education, and the Premier, basically saying there are going to be more cutbacks.

There is not going to be more ·cutbacks, there is going to be more money into it. And here they are jeopardizing negotiations even before it starts. 1n.,,;.l 1.1. u

Decembar 1. 198~ Ta;.c ::.:. . :':':1 - .., :·:~ . !-!I St:OCK : But thjs bill, Mr. Speaker , if we are go ing to divide the · cepa r~~e~ ~ anrl p~~ ~? the cc~p~~o ll~= Gener a! into another de p~.:ty mi nister as sue~, a:-~d th e dep uty minister , is this going LO allow ti ghte r management? Is th is goi ~ g to cut down as mu~h ,with respect to ths Cha ir, $3 mi llion is being spent on helicopters within Labrador , and the people in L~rador are sayL~g, Why can they :-~ot use local aircraft? AN FION . MEt-lBER: (Inaudible) . MR. SPEAI<ER ·(Simms): Order , please . ~m. HISCOCK: so, Mr .

Speaker, saving money is a very qreat responsibility of the Deputy Minister of Finance and theCo~ptrollerGeneral and I ho~e that they start tightening up on a lot of the waste and ~~e abuse of the various departments , and cut out a lot of the 1 :"J:H 'l

l"ec . IH : l 9 R 1 Tape No. 3922 . DW - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: unneccesary .far. and get into sound nana qement. And if ·this is ~·:hat the .hill is going to do,and I hope for one it is, then, .Hr. Spe?..ker, it is worth­ while. But if we are not going to continue to have a Depart­ ment of Finance that brir,gs in a budget-and now before the year is out finds out that all their projections are wrong. I think it is about time we re-organized the Department of Finance. I think it is about time we got a new Minister of Finance. So with regard to this bill, Mr.

Speaker, it is extremely important and the repercussions that it is going to have. And I hope that with regard to· the Cabinet that the Deputy Minister of Finance and Comptroller General "ill have more control over the other deputy ministers and with regard to Treasury Board. I think it is time for this government and other gover~ents to have accountability, accou:::1tability of the tax payers' money and where this money is going and what it is being used fer. We have a tendency to think sometimes it is basically our own and end up spending in whichever way. In concluding, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to concLude on · .this .b,y ~say&ng it ,is ·a:b .out -·t-ime we have the re-organization but I also think it is about time that the people of this Province have accountability and let us have a debate on the economy and find out this financial situation that \-'e are actually _in. MR. S. NEARY: MR. S?EAKER (Simms) : MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker. A point of order? A point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for LaPoile. LBu -:-1

t. Lee. Cl, ... ",..., .J.....:; ............ m~""'~ .,_T,... ... '-!:"'.... ~ · ...... 3922 Dt-T - 2 ~-!R. S. NEfi.:RY: M~. S-oenker, ,,,e have had a n1.: .:-1J~ = of 9oints cf orc2cr ar .::..-: ~:- ~:-. -!cur Eor:o :.Jr c_:1.1ot.e d a ~ection of Beauchesne, SP.ction 734. I would like to draw Your Honour's attention to

section 299 in connec- tion with relevancy,and I do not think I have to quote it for Your Honour ! would just like to draw it to your atten- tion: 'Pelevancy is not easy to define. In borderline cases the Member should be given the benefit of the doubt.' Now this is the kind of a bill, Mr. Speaker, it is a very tricky bill. It does ~ave far-rea-::hing i.mplioations • It aeparates what - actually it is b!:"eak ;ing with tradition in this Province. It is separating the Comptroller of the 'l'reasury from the Deputy Minister of Finance. It used to b~ one in the same person.

Now it is going to be two separate entities, two separate peopl~. And the implications of that are far-reaching and I believe members should be permitted to" have a broad- ranging debate on that principle _. It is a very important principle and the princip~e is spelled out not in our words, He did not write the principle on the bill, Mr. Speaker, the go'{ernment, the legislative draftsman wrote . in . his Qwn ;WOr .ds !.the pr .inciRle.s, So w.e _do np:t have to stick - there wa~ a time, Mr. Speaker, and in some Legislatures at t:!).e moment there is no explanatory notes in bills.

The p~~nciple of the bill 7you have to gather it yourself from re~ding the sections of the bill. So I believe the government are trying to restric'b · debate .and I do not think they should be allowed to get away with it, ~-1r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): I thank the han . member for MR. W. MARSHALL: To the point of order, 1\/'a-. Speaker. 1 l~ :I 1.. i.

Dec. ,, ... _, !981 ~;c . 39~2 I)~~: - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Si~~sl: To the r.>Oi!'.': of o:r-der, the he~. P~esident o~ t~e C0~~cil, MR. W. ~~HALL: That is not a point of order, Mr. Speake~, that is a hypothetical question. You= Honcur has made a ruling in this House and Your Honour made a ruling and quoted that particular

section of Beauchesne. And the hon. gentleman,as his is bent,gets up and tries to, in eff~ct, instruct Your Honour by raising matters, Mr. Speaker, that are hypothetical. All the hon. gentleman has to do is also refer to Beauchesne on hypothetical questions being asked to the Speaker. I hardly need quote it. I can if the hon. gentlemen want it. What the hon. gen tleme "n, Hr. Speaker, are doing in this bill and with respect to these points of order are trying to fillibuster in effect. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. MARSHALL: It is a co~porate filibuster! They will get their per diems, Mr.

Speaker, but they will ~ot get the votes of the people of this Province. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Well, really,I think it is - A point of personal privilege, May I deal with the point of order first and then I will ~ertainly hear the hon. member's privilege? up on me. MR. NEARY: MR: SPEAKER: I do not want too ma~y things piling Alriqht, Sir. With respect 10:J4t:;

December ~. ~9~~ 'l'=.pe No. 3923 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): to the point of order, there is no point of order. Hc,n. members ~re aware of that, I am sure the hor.. membe r for Lapoile (Mr. Neary) himself is aware there is no point of order. I did net consider it to be presenting a hypothetical case. I took it to be the hon. member for LaPoile was providing the Chair with a little bit of additional information should I have to rule on relevancy in the future, and I thank him for that. But I will carry on and read a

section that he did not read when he related to relevancy,where it points out that discr etion is used by the Speaker in relevancy. But the whole point of callin9 membars to order with respect to relevancy on seco~d reading is not whether or no~ I should . . . allow members to have wide discretion or s~0n, it is the parliamentary rules which say those things that I quoted and I do not need to repeat them again.

But debate on second r~ading should be applied to the principle of the bill. ·Committee is a little more flexible,and there are other opportunities to ask questions such "as those that are raised during this debate or have been raised during this debate, which I do not consider to be totally relevant,and that is the reason why I have called members' attention to it. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. member MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, when the hon. President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall} raised his point of order, he implied that I had challenged Your Honour's ruling or that I had questioned the ruling of the Chair in some way or other. Now, Mr. Speaker, Your Honour knows that Your Honour in an unorthodox sort of way .this afternoon - well,maybe that is not the right word - but not in the traditional way Your Honour intervened in the debate to give th .e House some information in connection with the way that the debate should follow and so forth and we appreciate that. And I was not challenging 1D~LP ..

December 1, 1981 Tape No. 3923 SD - 2 HR. NEARY: that in any ·.vay, sha?e or form anc I resent the imputation on the part of the President of the Council (Hr. Marshall). And I believe Your Honour should direct the President of the Council to withdraw these re­ marks. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): I thank the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). There is no point of order. He just made a comment. MR. ·WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. We have been talking one day and a part of an afternoon and it is called a filibuster. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to say a few words on this bill. However, I would only be too glad, Mr. Speaker, seeing such a bill of this magnitude coming before .this House, being presented by a government that not one person on the government side has spoken for or against this bill, Mr. Speaker, I would be only too glad, Mr. Speaker, to s~t down and take my seat and let some hon. member on the other side have the opportunity to address this bill. MR. THOMS: There is nobody on the oth?r side speaking on it. MR. SPEARER: Order, please! The hon. member for Torngat Mount- ains has been recognized. MR. WARREN: We can see, Mr.

Speaker, that here is an example of this government trying to ramrod something through this House without even speaking on it. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. WARREN: This . is exactl y what is happenin g with this bill, is that this 80Vernment wants to ramrod it through this House without having the opportunit y of letting anybody speak on it and we, on this sice, will not let that happen. We will be speaking on this bill • . 1J:1~7

L December 1, 1981 Ta?e No . 39.23 so - 3 MR . NARREN : ~ otv, :Olr. 3peaker, I nave great co:-1- cern . 'iihat will the du1:ies of the Comptroller ~ SOME H'ON . :1Er-1BERS : O!i , oh ~ MR. TfiD:'-lS : Come on, boy, come 0:1 , any time at all . Let the coward call an election and th~n you can come on down !lecaus .e you will never get elected again in Placentia, so you might as well try the Sout~ Coast . MR . SPEAKER(Si.nvns.l_ : Ordel7, plense ! ·m< . WA.~P.EN: But, .M.r . Speak.er , here we are., this 3ove.rnment ~s trying to drvice 1 :J ~ i. Q

:J.:cerr.ber 1, 1981 ':'.2.;; ·2 2924 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: up the Department of Finance into two depm:y ;-ni;tisters, if you care to call l t:, or a :omptroller and a Deputy lliniste r. I woul d like to know, Mr. Speaker, what \_"ill be the .responsibilit y of the comptroller? I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if that person had been around in 1975, almost to this very date in 1975, Mr. Speaker, when an editorial appeared in a newspaper, and if I may ask the indulgence of the House, I would like to read this editorial because it does tie in with this financial bill. The editorial begins: "Ashak y wa y to qet alonq.

There are those who say that Newfoundland's winding up the fiscal year $11 million in the hole on current account is a disaster. We say that government will be extremely lucky to be able to keep it at that." This was an editorial on November 28, 1975 and I believe it was from the Evening Telegram. "Do you have the feeling that the whole Province is falling apart? Look at what is happening. Our three big resource-based industries, fisheries, forestry and mining, are in serious trouble. We have more .people out of work than ever before in our history.

Strikes are tearinq away at the already weakened fabric of ·the feeble economy. 'l'he Province has the lowest :cne..di t rating in all Canada. The only thing holding us up is the high proportion of our money that comes from Ottawa. Because of Ottawa money, payments to government in one form or another, unemployment insurance, old age pension, family allowance, etc., Newfoundlanders have as much money to spend this Christmas as they ever had, but it is a shaky way to get going." Now, you would not believe, Mr. Speaker, but that editorial was written this morning.

It is the same kind of an editorial that you would see appearing in today's paper, because this government has 1lJ.'H n

.o/' December 1, 1981 Tape 3924 .c...... - 2 ~? . :47!\.RR~~T ~ no more to be proud of today t~an the government of the day under a P.C. a~~inistraticn on Novembe! 28, 1975. It is almost exactly word for word, !•1r. Speaker. SOME HON. £-lEMBERS: !VIR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER ( S~rnms ) : .oh, oh! On a point of order, r.lr. Speaker. Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: I refer to Your Honour's ruling earlier this afternoon, a few moments ago, with respect to paragraph 739, page 225 of Beauchesne, which says, "Debc.te and proposed amendments must therefore relate exclusively to the principle of the amending bill." The principle of this bill, r.rr. Speaker, is for the division of the Deputy ~1inister of Finance and the Comptroller of Finance. It relates to,the administration of the Department of Finance, and what the hon. gentleman is doing - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR . SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oh! Order, please!

Order, please! - and what the hon. gentleman is do·ing -i;s<d~a-:ti:ng., ~Mr. ·SFe&~er, in ef~ect, •the gener-al financial position of the Province. As interesting as it is 1 and as proud as this government is of it, it is not a matter of the principle of this amendment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: Hear, hear! To the point of order, r.lr. Speaker. The hon. the Deputy House Leader. Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me that rr,y hon. colleague, in talking about the restructuring of the Department of Finance and talking about the divisions of J;espon£ihi.Li.t-:ies be:tween the Comptroller of Finance and now the Deputy Minister, was simply wondering, Mr. Speaker, 11L1 sn

De cem ber 1, 1981 Tap e 3924 EC - 3 ~..3 . !.US :!: Q"..Zt loud, ~.,. ~~ ......... ., t~is ···o• .111 affect the fi~anc~~! ?~=~t~c~ c= ~~~ ~=c~~=~ . ~~ . Speaker , that seems to be qu~~e i~ order to me . AN RON . i.n:MB ER: (Ina udible) the editorial. MR . SPEAKER (Simms): To the po int of orde ~. I do not think I really need to repeat mys elf . Bon . members are aw are of what debate should take place on second reading , I mean , those are the rules of the House, rules of Parliament . Every member should· adhere to the rules.

So the rules are t:hat t..l'te hon . member should contain his ra~ar~s to .the princip le of the bill, which I repe ated en a number of occasions, as it relat es to the separation of the t\oTO position:=, and actual ly simply asks that those two positions be incorporated into the Department of Financ e Act as has already been done in the statu tes , as ref erred to ±n the explana tory note. Hon . members by now should well be aware. I might point out , somew he re, and I cannot find 1 [1~;i'l

December 1, 1981, Tape 392 5, Page 1 -- apb ;.:R. SPEAKE?. (,3i::J;;-.s): the =e::er2~c .:: '-:;· .~~ ~ ~.-:auld want to cau1:.ion hon. members, if I ~.a}-, that if hon .. have to consi .stently be asked to refrain from. irrelevancy 1 they can be ordered to take their seats. So I will caution the hon. members and ask them to try to contain their remarks to the principle of the bill. Torngat Mountains. MR. THOMS: The hon. the member for Those who have reservations made for Florida are not going tomorrow. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: the merr~er for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, on two or three separate occasions this afternoon the President of the Council(Mr. Marshall) made a statement to the House that the Opposition were filibustering. MR. TULK: That is right. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that that is not true, it is not correct. All the Opposition want to do, Mr. Speaker, is, in carrying out their duties and responsibilities to the people of this Province - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! Now, that is clearly not a point of order. The hon. the member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) knows that.

There have been accusations on this side that the government is muzzling, accusations on that side that this side is filibustering. So those are clearly differences - MR. NEARY : Wh y did you not let me finish? MR. SPEAKER: Because it is not a point of order. Those are clearly differences of opinion - 1D::IS')

December 1, 1981, Tape 3925, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: ?~~ do ~cu knew? I di~ not finish. ~ffi. SPEAKER(S±mms): Well, I finished - I have heard as much as much as I nee:d to hei' 2~ . MR. NEARY: You can not cut members down like that in the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: I have heard enough to be able to n:ake a ruling that what th~ hon. member has said is not a point of order - Okay? Torngat Mountains. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MARSHALL: order. MR. SPEAKER: the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the member for (Inaudible ). ---~ , Mr. Speaker, on a point of A point of order, the hon.

Your Honour has raised a ruling in this House,and given a ruling with respect to the point of order raised by the bon ·. the member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary). The hon. the member for Lapoile, while Your Honour was giving his ruling, was consistently interrupting Your Honour and questioning him, 'Why did you not this, and why did you not that', and he culminates it, Mr. Speaker, at the end by saying, 'Perhaps we have to challenge a few rulings'. Now, Mr.

Speaker, by any rules this constitutes an attempt of intimidation against the Speaker of this House, it requires for either the prompt retraction or the prompt withdrawal of the member who uttered them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Well, certainly if those are the remarks that were made, then it would certainly be a 1 D :l:S~ ...

"•( December l, 1981, rape ~~L5, rQ~~ ~ -- apo MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): legitimate ~oint of order. I would want to chec~ F~ns~r~ to see ~ l earl~ what was said, and see if it has been reporced, and I will deal ~ith it at a later time~ Torngat Mountair.s. MR. NEARY: The hon. the member for We are not going to be muzzled ·cy the President of the Council(Mr. Marshall), Mr. Speaker. MR, WARREN: MR: THOMS: MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. No way~ No way~ You are not getting the House closed, you might as well forget it. MR. THOMS: That is right. Cancel your reservations for tomorrow. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, please~ MR. NEARY: You can try to intimidate t~e Speaker all you want, but you are not getting the House closed. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains has the floor. MR. WARREN: As a new member in this House, Mr. Speaker, some of those bills - MR. MOORES: MR ·. NEARY: MR. WARREN: Showdown. Showdo~~. Yes, it is a showdown. - that the government tried to muzzle through the House I would like to try to understana a little bit more clearly what the duties are in some of those bills. So all I have been asking, Mr.

Speaker, is what are going to be the duties of the Deputy Minister and the Comptroller~ ·Is it going to have any effect on an editorial that appeared five years ago in a 1U.i.cil

Decemoer l, 1981 , Tape 3 3 2~, £Q~2 ~ -- ~; - '1R . WJI.RREN : paper, or is this government gai:J.g to CO!ltinue to waste money, and continue to · . .caste money as they have bee!l doing in pasL years? ~i ,:Y .-:, :~~~. Sp e2.k.er, this bill, 1 iJ :i .=! c:

!:'~c-~!!'lber l, 1981 Tape NO. 3926 EL - 1 MR. WARREN: "An Act To Amend The Department Of Finance Act". Hr. Speaker, ~ve are speaking abo•.1t the complete operation of this House of Asse~~ly, the complete·operation from one minister's department to the other minister's de­ partment. And it is very very difficult for a member in this House to stand up and try to speak on a bill if he can notonce in a while address his concerns to a particular de­ partment. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am concerned that the Department of Transportation is spending $3 million helicopter charters in Labrador. I am really concerned, Mr.

Speaker - MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! I have already ruled that comments of that nature are not pertinent to the bill we are debating. !J!R . THOM,S : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. ¥That r:r:-"'! '"'e doi.nrr? r,That are we doina? MR. WARREN: Mr.Speaker, ~overnment control of responsibilities can be proiected to helicooter char- ters in this Province. What are the government's responsibilites? I ~ope the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) whP.n he does clue up this bill will be able to answer.

Will one of the Comptroller's responsibilities be able to look into the wastinq of different departments, Mr.Speaker. Will this bill, will the comptroller have any authority,any responsibility to check into the wastage that is going on by people working with the government, by civil servants working with the government, whenever they are moving from place to place they have to charter a helicopter instead of using the airlines that are available. Mr.Speaker, these are the kind of questions that I am asking. Maybe this is a good thing 1 D .1.':; ~

0-=cember l, l9Sl 'I=.pe No. 392G ~ NR . ~-1Pu.~Rl:~! : -F~·c: the Public Accounts Committee to take up looking into,this ~ig helicopter wastag e. MR. NEARY: How much was it? MR. WARREN: Over $3 million. Now if the government of th3.s Province is going to make their Finance Department ;nore adequate by dividing up the responsibilities of their high bureaucrats, at least, Mr. Speaker, the least thing we can find out is who will have responsibility for what. Will a Comptroller have responsibility in checking into high waste spending of this government or will that go to another deputy minister~ Mr.

Speaker, it is very simple. These are the concerns that I would like to find out as a member of this House. If that is not what this bill is in­ tended for,I would like to know why. I am sure all of us on this side would like to know why. _ What is the purpose of a Comptroller? I presume, Mr. Spea-ker, it is to try to cut wastage in the government. And, Mr. Speaker, God help us, there has been enough wastage in the past four or five vears. Mr. Speaker, this government all along has said 1~n particular before this session opened, that they were going to bring in - every piece of legislation is major reform. Mr.

Speaker, I believe probably this piece of legislation should be a major reform. But I am astonished, as all my colleagues are,that not one member on the government side consider this a major reform. AN HON. MEMBER: about. MR. WARREN: They do not know what it is all Not one member on that side has decided to stand up and defend it. I am not defending or against it, Mr. Speaker. I would like to know what it is, why it is. And, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. Minister of Finance 10~S7 ~ . ...

t>ecen!b:e~ -1, 198:1 , __ . ~- "" . Tape No . 392 6 EL - 3 (D r. Collins) could tell me - HR . AYLiiARD : I will tell 'lOU . --- - MR . NARREN : - if I sit dovm the ho:~ . member is going to tell me? Oh , \~ell I a1n surprised that the hen . member for Kil~ride (Mr . Aylward) ba s not gotten u~ and spoken in support of thi s bill . Mr . speak er, there are other things in other depa .rtments that I believe that the Comptroller, that is going to be , we wi ll say, separated from the deputy minister in this bill - 10;:\:iQ " t t

r:l December 1, 1981 Tape 3927 EC - 1 NR. ~'iARREN: Is ;12 soir,g to lee:~ -:...;: all the waste and tile spenalng that i1as ;lap&>ened in -cile Deparunent of Fisheries in the last two years? Is he going to look at that, Mr. Speaker? Is he going to look at all the unnecessary trips that have been taken throughout this Province? And all we need is for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to lay on the table of this House - or the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) for that matter - lay on the table of this House copies·of invoices from Sealand Helicopters and, Mr.

Speaker, we will know if this Comptroller, the person who has been selected in this bill ~ill see if there is any wastage of government money. MR. HOUSE: I would say that (inaudible) in the districts or travelling (inaudible) thousand dollars (inaudible) • MR. WARREN: Not too many, no, and·I do not either. MR. HOUSE: :Jo you not? MR. WARREN: No, Sir. Back to the Minister of Health (Mr. House), Mr. Speaker. If I were spending half as much money as the Minister of Health is spending and not doing anything about it, Mr. Speaker, then I would have something to crow about. Mr.

Speaker, what is this government afraid of, I wonder? I believe that this government is afraid to let us debate this bill, afraid because we may all of a sudden uncover something in some department. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WARREN: And, Mr. Speaker, it is there knee-deep. There is enough dust there in the various departments knee-deep that we can uncover; there are all kinds of things. So if the .Hinister of Health - 1D?I.Cin

December 1, 1981 Tape j:J27 £C - 2 .1-L~ • lvARREt-I: I "'ill kindly take my seat if he wants to stand up and support this bill and what it is going to do. Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague, the member for LaPoile (Hr.· Neary), as well as I and as w·ell as o.ther members are - we are sort of concerned about what this bill is going to do. Is it going to help the Treasury to save money_? If it is not, what is the purpose? Is it for the purpose of.signing a few invoices or a few letters or something like that? Is it ~ means of this government saving a few dollars? If it is, Mr.

Speaker, then it is helping the taxpayers of this Province. Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the government gave the indication - it was in today's paper - that this government wants to close the Eouse, the people's House. And what did the President of the Council (¥~. Ma~shall) do yesterday? He brought in several . . special warrants. MR. DAWE: (Inaudible) • MR. THOMS: There-you are, the minister says it is a waste of time. MR. WARREN: Yes, I just heard the Minister of Transportation say 'a waste of time'. , That is why, Mr. Speaker, we only had one shift on for snow clearing. Mr.

Speaker, this bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Finance Act," is lonq overdue. MR. THOM!;: Why are we filibusterinq? MR. SPEAKER (Butt}: Order, please! Order, please! MR. WARREN: I am sure, Mr. Speaker, if you would only take two or three hours of your busy

schedule and take any five departments for the past six years and look at their expenditure - expenditure in travelling alone, in helicopter charter alone, Mr. Speaker, if you take about 10~Rn

·~ December 1,1981 Ta pe No. 3928 ah-1 MR. WARREN: two hours of your special time and just loc~ at that alone, Mr. Speaker, ·: ·~::!._.,:;_ say tnat this bill is lo ng ov erdue because we definitely need somebody, som ebod " ~1r. Speaker, because it is a full-time job for one man alone,to scrutinize what it is costing the taxpayers of this Province for bureaucrats and ministers and so on travelling on helicopters. It would take one person alone, Mr. Speaker, to do that~ And I 'hope, Mr.

Speaker, this bill will at least give that person that kind of authority, where at least he car, have the free will to investigate the full operations of government spen~ing in air services. And, Mr. Speaker, I would say the people of Newfoundland and the people of Labrador would be shocked to-xnow .that helicopters paid for by the people of this Province have been used to go fishing. ~- NEARY: MR. WARREN: ' . .ffi. NEARY: MR. WARREN: What? Yes. What? Yes, to go fishing, paid for by the people of this Province. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, there are cases all over this Province whe.re people go to a destination. They reach their destination alright, Mr. Speaker, but after many extra miles. And, Mr. Speaker, I-know this is happening and this is why I hope that this perso~ ~ whoffi this bill is designed to create, that this person will be given the autonomy to go in and take hold of the invoices for the last five or six years for the spending of people's money on helicopter services - and we will find that this person is really going to be worth his weight in gold. But, Mr. Speaker, if this government 1[!:JP,1

1;/ December :)._,1981 Tape No. 3928 ah-2 MR. WARREl'J: tries to muzzle us from brea~ing open these ve~y i:r.po.c':"C.nt facts thi:\t ~·re l·lant to let the people ci::: th~s Province )mo>v- 1ve IVant to let the people know that this government is wasting money. This administration has was~ea money since it came into being in 1979 and it will continue, Hr. Speaker, and it is not an honest government. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. THOMS: MR. l'l'ARREN: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order! si~k_people do not go fishing. I have not yet, Mr. Speaker, seen a person who was on a stretcher go fishing.

But I did see a minister go ·fi~hing. I did see a minister of the Crown go fishing. And that, Mr. Speaker, is not ~person on a stretcher. And, Mr. Speaker, in this letter that I will table,, it say"s that the most important tning that a helicopter should be used for is medical evacuation and forest fires,and I agree wholeheartedly, Mr. Speaker, but not to take ministers of the Crown and othe.r bureaucrats into fishing camps. MR. NEARY: Do you want to know who they were? The hon. gentleman knows. Fishing in Northern Labrador. MR. WARREN: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I say that this bill will come to a purpose and the least thing that it could develop is t6 put a scrutinizing eye on the operation of the various departments. Another thing I would like to know in speaking to this bill is - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! MR. WARREN: Now ,all of a sudden the Minister of Health (Mr. House) - I must have touched something very touchy or very thorny , because the minister is awfully upset. 10~R')

December 1,1981 MR. 't >;~ ... -..... : ......... _~; not knm·J. MR. 'LHOMS: MR. WARREN: like it. Tape No. 3928 ah-3 ::~l~-:c::: ::.sis ~he ,.... .. .!j.l_:.,.r one. I do Is he? I do not know. He is reall y ~C~l~g 1 ,-, ..., - '" l,_: :1 h -l

n~':'-~'"="'l;e":"' 1. 1_ 9Pl ~~~ ··..) ... -'""' ~ 0 29 'l'f - 1 l~1R ~ -·7 ~.:?.~ !:?'T : You are really acting like it. MR. THOHS: .l\re you the one .who went fishing in 3. helicopter? HR. iUSCOCK: Hr. Speaker, I am talking about the last ten years of Tory Administration, the worst administration in this Provnce, Mr. Speaker. That is what I am talking about. And this is why this bill was brought in, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEA.RY: And the fishing trip was within the last two years. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman sums up what his perception is of what he was talk~ng about other than the words "Mr. Speaker" since he has been talking, and that is the past ten years of Tory Administration. Now, Your Honour, this is a matter -the principle of this bill is the division of the office of Deputy Minister of Finance to Deputy Minister and Comptroller. And Your Honour, Mr. Speaker, has already called the hon. gentleman to order for irrelevancy and I.quote to Your Honour Standing Order 51 (a) "A member addressing the House shall, if called to order by Mr.

Speaker or by any other member, resume his seat while the point of order is being stated - " "Any debate on the point of order, which Mr. Speaker may permit, must be strictly relevant." Now, Mr. Speaker, what the hon. gentleman is talking about now has already been ruled to be irrelevant. It goes on to say, "Mr. Speaker or the Chairman, after having called the attention of the House, or of the Committee, to the conduct of a member who persis~s in irrelevance or needless repetition, may direct him to discontinue his speech, and if the member continues to speak, Mr.

Speaker may name him, or, if in Committee, the Chairman shall report him to the House." 1 q.,-j I; ."1 !"> •

December 1, 198L Tape No. 3929 IB-2 \<~ !A-~P.S:!ALI.: ~~d, !A~ . Speaker, the rules are here a~d i~ is quite obvious if the han. member wants to persist in his illrevancy he can go and he can speak elsewhere, to a Liberal Party comrni ttee or whatever he wishes t,:;. But this is the House of Assembly. The business befo~e the House is a matter of division of the Department of Finance. The hon. gentleman is not being relevant to the thing. He has been persistently irrelevcnt for the last twenty minutes and should be directed really, Mr. Speaker, if he continues,to take his seat. MR.

NEP.RY: ~· SPEAKER (BUTT) : for LaFoile. HR. NEARY: ~, To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hqn. member Mr. Speake~, that is several times this afternoon the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) has gotten up on a point of order to try to really - designed primarily to restrict debate, to muzzle the Opposition. I would like to draw Your Honour's attention to page 218 of Beauchesne,

Section 704 which says that the

long title of the·bill - "The

long title sets out in general terms the purposes of the bill. It should cover everything in the bill." Now,the reason I point that out to Your Honour is that the title of this bill is not the explanatory note inside, Mr. Speaker. That explanatory note inside, Mr. Speaker, has nothing at all to do with the bill. It is the wording of the legislative draftsman who says, This is the principle of the bill when in actual fact Beauchesne says and rightly so, that the title of the bill is what we are debating, the

long title. And,therefore,the hon. gentleman, in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, has no point of order. Because if we are debating the title of the bill,which is what we are debating, which is supposed to cover everything in that bill,let me point out to Your Honour that the title of the bill is

An Act To Amend The Department Of Finance Act. That is the title of the bill, and it is an umbrella under which everything else comes. What is inside on the page is merely written by a legislative draftsman .and not necessarily something 10:1h~ ... ~

Decembe r 1 , 1981 Ta.pe No . 3929 IB-3 MR. NEARY: .: •. a:. ;: a.j.i:e~ ;,;i. ::: ... vr rn;,r col leagues agz·ee ~T i t: h . Ana \,·nat: \ve are aebat:ing, <1r . Speaker , is t:he title of t hat bi ll . ~H~ . Tf!O!":S : Good point! Good point ! SOHE HON. ~1Et-1BE RS : Hedr, hear! i1R. SPEAKER (BUTT) : Order, plea se! To the point of order let me say the Standin g Orders are quite clear <::n·:~, jus t p rior to the hon . President o f the Council (!"~ . Marshall) risin g on this point of order I was about to c all the hon . member to order because once again , as 1J;1 F. j:: -;-

.1.JC\.-C,li.j.lo,..~ _.I ..t......(.y ..1. .1. ...... t""..:.. ·"~" :.De. ~1R. SPEAKER (3utt) ~ has been rulGd by t!ie Speaker, the 2revious gentleffian here in the Chair, he was being irrelev~n~. And the Standing Orders point out as well that an hon. member can be called to order for needless repetition. And I would ask him if he would confine his remarks to the bill we are now debating, which is a divis- ion in the Department of Finance. And the hon. member has about five minutes to conclude his remarks. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, thank you very much for your ruling. Mr.

Speaker, in this bill we are talking about a division in the Department of Finance. I wonder will the Comptroller - will one of his responsibil­ ities be; in this bill, to carry out an investigation into all the spending of any department. I am just wondering, Mr. Speaker, if the Comptroller would have the authority to carry out an investigation, for example, into the corn- plete chaos within the .Departrnent of Rural Development? I Is that the purpose o~ this bill, Mr.

Speaker, or are we just going to have a bill and give another guy a job and put a figurehead up on the seventh floor and that is all there is to it? I am just wondering, Mr. Speaker, what is the purpose of the whole billt If the purpose of the bill is to give this person the authority to do a probe into - AN HON. ~MBER; linaudiblel the retail sales tax, 11R. WA.R,REN: Okay. As my han. colleague is just saying - to try to collect the outstanding sales tax that is in this Province. that people owe, Mr. Spe .aker, or to check 10::1h7

li Dec~-'"-o~ !. , 198 1 't'nne No. 1cnn n . - '2 MR. WARREN: into buildings that are costing th~ gove r nment S50,000 and $60,000 a~c sell them off t o t hei~ frie~ds for $10 ,0 00 or 515,000 . Is this wn a~ this person is go ing to do? . E'er exa:nple , Rural Deve lopment sole a building d O\·m on t.J,e Baie Verte Peninsula for peanuts of what i t cost . So I am concerned , Mr .

Speaker, ~~at unless this person is goin g to be given some auth ority , s ome ammunition and some means and ways to function proper ly and to ~cover \ohat this government has c overed up , it is just a .waste of paper , a \vaste of the time of this House in even debatL'lg it . Because if this person is going to be the person that this government wants and the person tha t the peopl e in this Pro vi nce want,then the person should be given a free - f'or - a1.1 to uncove r anything that is of the utmost importance , Mr . Speaker . I have a feeling, Mr.

Spea~er , - I am going to close on these remark s - that this government - MR . THOMS: By leave . MR . WARREN: - is goin g to appoint a eomptr oller General for one purpose, Mr . Speaker- and I am going to close on that-and tha·t is that t his govermnent is gone bankrupt and they just want to cover it up . Thank you , Mr. Speaker . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear , hear ! 1 Q1t;P

December 1, 1981 Tape 39 31 EC - 1 MR. SP EAK ER (Butt) : The hon. the member for Lewisporte. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! I1R. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words on this bill, not a lot. I will try to be as relevant as I can with respect to the principle of this bill. The main reason why I am rising, Mr. Speaker, to say a few words, is to make sure that credit for this piece of legislation goes to those who deserve it.

I want to refer members to the report of the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Assembly for the financial year ended 31st March 197-8. en page 69 of that report by the Public Accounts Committee under the heading General Matters, it says, "The Committee notes that the Comptroller of the Province is also the Deputy Minister of the Department of Finance, under subsection 2 of

section 20 of the Financial Administration Act, 1973. Under the act the Comptroller is charged with the financial supervision of the operation of all government departments and his powers should not be subject to an y influence by a Cabinet minister. This independence cannot be maintained if he must act as the Deputy Minister of the Department of Finance. The Committee believes that there is a conflict of interest in the combining of the positions of Comptroller and Deputy Minister of the Department of Finance." In recommendation number 25 of that Public Accounts Committee report,"The Committee recommends that the Financial Administration Act, 1973,

section 20, should be amended to separate the positions and duties of Comptroller and Deputy Minister of the Department of Finance." 1 n '"~- Ll ,l h C) -=-

~"';· -? December 1, 1981 Tape 3931 EC - 2 MR. IVEI~:::: Spea!~e::::-, ~:1at was the report of the Public bccounts Cornmi~~~e, 1978, making the recommendation that the two positions be split. Subsequent to that the Minister of Finance announced, I think it was last Summer, that the government was going to act in accordance with the recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee and split the two positions. I should also tell members who was on that Committee at the time when this recommendation was made. Members were the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. ~ideout), the member for St. John's West (Mr.

Barrett), the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), the member for Bonav~sta North, the present Leader of the Opposition, the member for Menihek (Mr. Walsh) and myself. I should also give credit to Mr. Roger Simmons, who was the first Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee here in this Province,because he resigned from the Committee shortly before this report was brought in. So it was not a recommendation of the Auditor General, Mr. Speaker, let us make that very clear. I think members confuse the duties of the Auditor General sometimes.

His duty is not to recommend on policy to the government. The Auditor General would be stepping out of line if he were, in his report to the House of Assembly, to recommend,for example, that the position of Deputy Minister and Comptroller be split. That is not his duty. His duty is to oversee the accounts of this Province and to recommend where things have gone wrong or steps should be taken to correct pitfalls in the financial structure of the government. So it was not a recommendation of the Auditor General,and he would have no right to make such a recommendation to this 1J:17f1 ~ ...

r·) +' ~ f) (

J) I~ s ~ H (]) ~ 0 0> Q) ..c:~ -P c +' .--l r1 H "' 0 P) (]) (]) rJJ ..... u. ::J ['-rd 0 --< :r:: "-r-·· . ...-- ~' ~- ,-j Q' ro (' u"""\ Ur ,-j -!-' n_; ·--l .~: o- [.1 H E-< -J-1 (]) H r' ~ ~ t"") c[ (]) ~I () '(]) p. (J q ~ c

Decerr.ber 1, 1981 Tape No. 3932 EL - 1 MR. iVHITE; That was the job of the Public Acco~nts Committee and I say, Mr. Speaker, it is one of the few times ih this House that I have seen the government pay any attention to ~he report of the Public Accounts Committee. It might do the administration some good to take the reports of the Public Accounts Committee for the last four or five years and re-read them,because there were a lot of recommendations in reports of the Public Accounts Committee in the past that should be acted on,and this is one situation where they have decided to act. Now, Mr.

Speaker, another re- lated matter that I would like to ask the administration about now is in that same recommendation to the House of Assembly that the Public Accounts Committee made; .

Section two, under General Matters 1 goes on to say, 'sectio~ three, subsection one of the Financial Administration Act, 1973, states that Trea.-,ury Board ·should have a minister who shall be the President.' So the President of the Treasury Board is obviously a Cabinet Minister. 'At present, the President of Treasury Board is a·lso a minister of another government departmen~.

As Treasury Board examines and approves the budgets of all departments, the Committee therefore feels that the President of Treasury Board should only be the minister of that department.' What we are saying in that report or in that recommendation, recommendation number twenty-six, 'The committee recommends that the President of Treasury Board not hold a position as minister of another government department', Mr. Speaker.

So ~hat i~ what we are recommending in this report and I would like to know from the government if they have given any consideration at all to making the President of the Treasury Board that position only. 1lJ~7'J • .,.

... December l, 1981 Tape No. 3832 EL - 2 MR. WHITE: In other words, a Cabinet Hini,;t:<:r with another portfolio not be assigned to the presidency of the T~easury Board and holdsthat position and that position only. . I do not know if the government has ~"ought about that or not,but I think they should and look ~tit closely 1 because,again,it would be something worth­ while. The problem with the financial structure and the Financial Administration Act in this Province, Mr. Speaker, is that we need a completely new audit act.

I think the government has started to work on it in some ways but I do not think they are working fast enough. We need an audit act, ar;prand new audit act.l>nd if members would look at the one in Ontario, for example, it is very small and simple compared to the one down here that we have,which is pages and pages of words and documents, But the audit act in Ontario Mr. Speaker, provides protection for the Public Accounts Comm- ittee. There was a study done recently, this study here that I hope members have seen. It is called Impr~ving Accountabili~y, Canadian Public Accounts Committees and Legislative Auditors.

This study was done by the Canadian Com?rehensive Auditing Foundation which was set up by J.J. MacDonnell, the former Auditor General of Canada. The re- commendations with respect to Public Accounts Committees, I am pleasedto say, in this study, Mr. Speaker, almost make the Newfoundland Public Accounts Committee a model committee in the country. It almost does. We are one of the few prov- inces with a working Public Accounts Committee, a good Public Accounts Committee. 1u.17~

tl. December 1, 1981 Tape No . 39 32 EL - 3 MR. WHITE : As Chairman of the Public Accoum:s C-:>:n."':l itcee he re ::or the la st fe<t: ~·ea rs, I ha d t.lle oppor\.uni ty to att end a :1umber of meetings of' Chair men of Publ ic Acco unts Committees from across Canada - the last one t•as in Ne\or Bru nswick in Ju ly-an d from c o~paring no tes =r em all those committees, I a."tt ver y pleased t.,rith the collll:littee that tve ha\-e here in Newfoundland .But the troubl e with t.~e committee we I have here in Newfoundland, Hr . Speaker, is that it has no protection in law.

It is controlled by a majority of government members and at any time that majority can stop the work of the Public Accounts Committee as has been done in the past .

Members will recall how , under the former administration, the Moores ' administration, the Public Accounts Committee was split.And that could very well happen again .If something turned up in the Public Accounts Committee concerning the administration,that became embarr ­ assing to the administratio~ shortly before an election or close to an election, it would be very easy for a majority of the member s of the Public Accounts Committee ,representing the government side 1 to halt the work of the Public Acc ounts Committee . Now, in the Province of Ontario, ' 1 n ::17 1 ~

:,.~.,;:.'- . ¥..L., _ _, -- -... .: - l·!R. F a ~~JEITE: Hr. Speaker, the activities a!Ci dutie s of ·.:he Put l:.c .Accou nts CO I!l.o11i<:t ee are '\vrit"C en in to la·,..·, th ey are writte n into the statutes. Its~ys clearly that matters coming before the House dealing with the finances of the Province of Ontario must be referred to the Public Accounts Committee. Must be referred to the Public Accounts Committee. The Auditor General can only make recommendations to the House and if there i~ no committee to expose the recommendations of the Auditor General,to find out the reasons for such m