Manitoba Hansard — 4 March 1974 (Sitting 38, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-38

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, March 4, 1974 Open ing Prayer by Mr. Speak er. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 987 MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery whe re we have some visiting students in the city unde r the Winnipeg Jaycees Student Exchange Pro gram . There are 10 students from Quebec City, Quebe c; 10 students from Moncton, New Brunswick. They are accompanie d by 10 students from Daniel Mclntyre Collegiate and 10 from Gordon Bell School of Winnipeg who are their hosts . These students are accompanied by Mr.

McKenzie and Mr. Billows from the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce and are the guests of the Honourable Member for Springfield, the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. We also have 60 students of Grade 11 standing of Church ill High . These students are under the direction of Mr. Sabeski and Mr. Morton. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Os borne and the Honourable Minister of Consume r, Corporate and Internal Services . And there are 80 students Grade 7 standing of the Elmwood High School . These students are under the direction of Mr . Joffannson, Mr.

McAlpine , Mr. Gus Bodarchuk and Mr. Guleze wski . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Elmwood, the Minister of Public Works . On behalf of all the Honourable Members I welc ome you here today. Presen ting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presen ting Repor ts by Standing and Special Committee s; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR . SIDNE Y SPIVAK , Q. C. (Leader of the Official Opposition) (River He ights): Yes, Mr.

Speak er. My que stion is to the Honourable Minister of Labour. I wonder if he can indicate to the House what the current situation is in connection with negotiations between the City of Winnipeg and the Winnipeg City Police Force and the potential of withdrawal of services or a strike . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. RUSSE LL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Yes, Mr.

S peak er, I am informed that the Executive Committee of the City of Winnipeg met this morning following the issuance of a statement by the solicitor for the Police Association, a copy of which I received just shortly after 9:00 o ' clock in my office this morning, indicating that there is the possibility of a gradual withdrawal of services comme ncing one week hence .

I have no information as to what this really means but anyway this morning the Executive Committee of the City of Winnipeg met and the y are prepared to re sume negotiations with the Winnipeg Police Association and have reque sted that the conciliation officer of the Department of Labour is involved, and he will be involved, Mr. Speaker; the precise time and date of the resumpt ion of negotiation has not been directed to me as of this particular mome nt . MR . SPIV AK: Yes. I wonder if the Minister would indicate what course of action the governmen t will undertake if there is a withdrawal of services . MR .

SPEAKER: Order plea se. The question is hypothetical . The Honourable Leader of the Oppos ition. MR . SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speak er. I wonder if the Minister of Labour will indicate what action he intends to take if the negotiations - whe n the negotiations --(Interjectio n)-- what course of action he undertake s whe n the negotiations are broken off ag ain? MR . SPEAKER: Order plea se. The question is still in the same realm of hypothesis . I'm sorry. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . I.H. ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley ) : Thank you , Mr . Speak er .

My question is to the Honourable the Attorney-Gen er al . Can the Minister provide information on an RCMP se izure last Saturday of some 84 head of cattle from a farm in the Scanterbury area where an additional 45 head of cattle were found dead and the surviving group of some 85 were in a serious state of malnutrition?

988 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. March 4, 1974 HON . HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General ) (Selkirk) : Mr. Speak er, I cannot, and I don' t think it would be proper that I comment in any regard beca use the matter is probably one that will involve proceedings before the courts, that will be taking place. MR . ASPER: Can the Minister inform the House as to whether or not charges of cruelty to animals have been laid arising from this incident on Saturda y? MR . PAWLEY: Probably the y have bee n, Mr. Speaker.

I would not be able to confirm or deny that any particular charges have been made. I could take that part of the quest ion as notice and indicate but I would not go beyond there to comment in respect to the particulars of the case. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Spea ker, I•d like to direct a question then to the Minister of Agricul ture.

Can he provide the House with an up-to-date report on the livestock condition throughout Manitoba and indicate whether or not there is a ser ious shortage of fodder and low nutrient level that's creating a problem of malnutrition and starving of cattle ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . HON . SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): The Department of Agriculture , Mr.

Chairman, has indicated through a number of publications in the last month that .they are concerned about the lack of awareness on the part of many producers who are fe ed ing hay that may not be of good quality and which is resul ting in some degree of mal nutrition right across the province , and we have had some serious cases reported to us. We have publicized those as much as we can. MR. ASPER: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if he could indicate to the House whe ther he is aware of the facts alluded to in my que stion to the Attorney-General that 45 cattle were found dead of malnutrition on Saturday and 85 take n into custody ? MR . SPEAKER: Order please. The question is out of order. The Minister's awareness or not is not essential. The question has already been answered. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: To the Minister of Agriculture .

Has he taken any steps to ascertain whether cattle were found dead from malnutrition or starvation in the past three days resulting in seizures of starving cattle by the RCMP ? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speak er, I did undertake in the last few days to ask the Depart men t to make sure that where the government is involved financially that we canvass all of those farme rs to make sure that they are not finding themselves in a similar position. So it's a matter of advice that we are nowoffering to our clients in particular, aside from the general information that has been distributed over the last month. MR .

ASPER: Can the Minister - and I apologize for not having given him notice of this, I would have had I known the answer he would have given. Perhaps he can take this as notice. Would he undertake to ascertain whethe r a farme r by the name of Gordon Monkman in the Scanterbur y area was the recipient of a loan or grant under the cattle diversification program of his departme nt in the amount of some 80, 000, I be lieve the figure is? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speake r, I wouldn •t know the amount. I believ e the person in question is a participant through our Farm Diversification Program , ye s. MR .

ASPER: A final suppleme ntary, Mr. Speak er. Would the Minister advise the House as to what qualifications or conditions are placed in general terms on peopl e recei ving these grants or loans, and what supervision as to how the y perform is exercised by his department ? Are the y given the money and left alone and told to do the ir thing, or does your Department exercise some supervi sion as to the quality of care the y give the animals the y buy ? MR . USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition probably is not aware that that is an ARDA program fe deral -provincial, and that it is intensive and that there is super vision provided. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . L.R . (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry) : Thank you, Mr. Speake r. My qu estion is to the Honourable the Minister of Labour. Is the Minister in a position to advise the House what form the gradual withdrawal of City of Winnipeg Police services would take ? What services would be affected first ?

March 4, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speake r, I've not been made aware of the plan of action of the City of Winnipeg Police if there is a gradua l withdrawal of serv ices. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. 989 MR . SHERMAN: A different que stion, Mr. Speak er, on a different subject but to the same Minister. Has the Minister had recent contact with leade rs of the garment industry in Manitoba with respect to the continuing worker crisis in that industry? MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: Not recentl y, Mr.

Speak er, due to commitments in the House I 've been unable to continue at least temporaril y my association with the garment industry, both worker and empl oyer. MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Speak er, his last point of contact, or on the basis of his last point of contact on the subject, would the Minister be able to assure the House that ef forts are being made to fill the acute worke r shortage in that industry, and that consideration is being given to those who are unemployed in Manitoba in that respect, MR. PAULLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Rock Lake . MR . HENRY J.

EINARSON (Rock Lake ): Mr. Speak er, I direct this quest ion to the Minister of Agriculture which relates to the que stions the Leade r of the Liberal Party was posing to him - the Minister mentioned superv ision in acquiring loans from either the Prov incial or Federal Government, I am wondering if the advice that this farmer or farmers received, did he investigate to find out whe ther they had received bad advice in feeding of livestock ? MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Spe aker, the whole que stion is unde r investigation and whe n we have the report we will be able to give furthe r information to the House. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lake side, MR . HARRY J. ENNS (Lake side ): Mr. Chairman, the que stion already raised is now new.

I wonder , d irecting the que stion to the Minister of Agriculture , would he undertake to supply the House with the actual number of instances whe re public moneys were involved in advancing to respective livestock growers, moneys for cattle purchase s, just how many cases we have as the ones that were reported by the Leade r of the Liberal Party ? MR. SP EAKER: Order please, I believe that would be an Order for Return more properly. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SP IV AK: Mr.

Speaker, my que stion is to the First Minister and it relates to statements made, I believe , before the Thompson Chamber of Commerce by him this weekend. I wonder if he can indicate to the House the figures that were used in a voice interview or a voice statement of the capital require ments that Hydro will be making for the next two years and following that for the next ten years. I believe if I' m correct, the figures were $275 million for the next two years, and 150 million for each year for the next ten years. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Well, Mr.

Speake r, in attempting to give a broad mea sure , or indication, of the level and pace of public investment in renewable energy developme nt, I indicated that in a very approximate way it would be something in the order of $15 0 million averaged out over a period of ten to twelve years as be ing the ki nd of orde r of magnitude of investment required to de velop renewable energy at an optimum pace. MR. SPIV AK: Mr.

Speake r, I wonder if the First Minister can indicate the reasons why the figures introduced even here appear much higher than the original program that was pre sented by Hydro before Public Utilities Committee . MR . SCHREYER: We ll, Mr. Speaker, they are not really a significant variance from the kind of magnitude that was spoke n about whe n the Nelson River construction began.

It has been ref erred to as being a Hydro electric development program over a per iod of 15 years, that the orde r of magnitude of public investmen t would be in the order of $2.5 billion, approximately, as a guide line; of course the costs are subject to adjustmen t from time to time in the light of changes in the construction costs indices, etc. MR . SPIV AK: Is not the information now being provided the House indicating a billion dollars higher than the original figure proposed by Hydro ?

990 March 4, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SCHREYER: Well yes, Mr. Speaker, there has been some considerable adjustment in the figures since, for example, the first or preliminary indication that was given in this House at the time when the decision to proceed with the Nelson development was first announced. At that time, for example, a figure of approximately 15 0, as I recall, to $200 million was referred to as the cost of Kettle Rapids. Well, that was in advance of the construction of Kettle Rapids itself.

Now that the years have passed in which it has actually been built one finds that the actual cost of Kettle Rapids was substantially more than what was estimated in 1966. So it is obvious, Sir, that there will be need for adjustment of these figures as we go along from time to time, depending upon economic conditions. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister. Can he confirm whether or not the new level, proposed flooding level of South Indian Lake will not be established at 85 0 feet. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR .

SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I believe that there is a definitive answer to that question; the Minister of Mines and Resources may be able to confirm. It•s my understanding that that figure is expressly stated right in the license as being the maximum allowed, and therefore that is a specific answer to my honourable friend. MR . ENNS : Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable First Minister for his help in re directing the question. I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, who I am sure also indicated at the time that it was •.• MR . SPEAKER: Question please, not an argument.

Order please. Order please. Order please. Would the honourable member state his question, not argue the point. MR. ENNS: Question to the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Is it the intention of the government to now flood South Indian Lake to the maximum levels per missible under the license applied for? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HON . SIDNEY GREEN, Q.C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I did not get that impression from either the First Minister's answer or from what I read in the newspaper.

What I understood to be the case, and I hate to rely on my memory where it's specified in the license, but that the initial levels would be at 847 and that it would not go beyond 850 feet, but that we would try to - that Hydro would try to work at the lower levels and would only go up from those levels if they didn1t get the amount of water at the lower levels. MR . ENNS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, directed to the same Minister. Is the Minister aware of the expressed desire of the community at South Indian Lake to have the lake flooded higher and maybe higher yet? MR . GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the only information that I have from the community to this point is that the lake should not be flooded, that the water level should not be raised at all. However, if there is an overwhelming desire that the lake be flooded higher, we would try to resist that desire and flood it only to a maximum of 85 0. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Labour.

I wonder if the Minister can report to the House on the strike this morning at Transcona at the Co- op Implement Shop respecting some 500 employees who went on strike. I wonder if the Minister had any communications, ar:rl did his department play any part trying to resolve this strike? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: It•s my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that in accordance with Manitoba Labour laws the employees and the employers have a difference of opinion as to a term contract and they have withdrawn- the employees have withdrawn their services, which is their proper right.

I understand that there was a mass meeting and there is to be a mass meeting today and the conciliation officers of the Department of Labour are ready and available at any time upon request. MR . PATRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the two sides can be brought together shortly to reopen negotiations. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, as soon as they are of a mind to be brought together they will be brought together.

March 4, 1974 991 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . PATRICK: A suppleme ntary, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister undertake to publish regularly in this House during the session a repo rt on strikes in Manitoba as to the number of emp loyees that are affe cted, the number of men hours laid off. MR . PAULLEY: I'm prepared at any time to answer any que stions pertaining to this matter upon request of all honourable membe rs, including my friend the member who asked the question. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. The honourable member has had three supplementari es. MR .

GEORGE HENDERSON (Pem bina): My que stion is for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Does the Minister care to give us his impression of the report of the Federal Government ' s Prices Review Board? MR . SPE AKER: Order please. The que stion is out of order. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . DONALD W. CR AIK (Riel): Mr. Speak er, I direct a que stion to the Minister of Finance. In view of the fed eral budget announcement of a 20 percen t increase in budget , has any

interpretation been attempted by himself or his department to determ ine the influence that this may have on the inflationary trend that we •re in in Manitoba and in other parts of Canada. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON . SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C . (Minister of Finance) (St. Johns): Mr. Speak er, to have a proper overvi ew of this kind of a proposal, of this consideration, would take considerable time which I've not been able to give to it. One would have to judge not only the increased cost but also the increased benefits that are transfer payme nts and that will require an exte nsive study.

I am not aware that anybody in my department is making the study; I would think that they too are too busy being involved in provincial affairs. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speak er, could the Minister indicate whether there is any combined attempt of fe deral and provincial authorities given the problem, or faced with inflation, of attempting to tailor the ir budgets to have an impact one way or another on inflation? MR . CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speak er, I would have to invite the honourable membe r to read the papers that I have submitted from time to time which represen ted the argume nts that I have prese nted at past meetings of the Finance Ministers of Canada in order to assess proposals made by this govern ment , and from that he can deduce responses given by the Federal Govern ment. There has been considerable discussion. MR . CRAIK: Mr.

Spe aker, then might I ask a que stion whethe r the Manitoba budget coming in, will in any way take into account the Federal level of spending; and might I ask a further que stion on that, whe n we might expect the budget? MR . CHERN IACK: Mr. Speake r, I trust that the budge t whe n pre sented will refle ct the views of this government on the que stion of inflation, and methods des igned to deal with it. As to the date in which it is br ought in, it has not yet been determined but I would say that I•m pretty close to being able to answer soon. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR .

EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West) : Mr. Speak er, to the Honourable the Minister of Mines , Reso urces and Environmental Management. Referring to some que stions which I asked on February 21st re lating to the capacity of the She llmouth Dam to serve as a flood control mechanism in the Assiniboine Va lley we st of Brandon, I wonder if the Minister has any information on that subject? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I apologize to my honourable friend. I be lieve that the information is in my office and I'll try to make a point of having it here tomorrow afternoon. MR .

SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge) : Mr. Speak er, I have a que stion for the First Minister. Would he be prepared to table in this House any information, studies or analysis that were presented to him by the govern ment authorities of North Dakota concerning the impact or questions of water quality on the Garrison Divers ion program: MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Reso urces. MR . GREEN: Mr.

Speak er, the study that was pres ented at the meeting is the study that I indicated that I would try to get copies of and make available to each party; that was the only study.

992 March 4, 1974 ORAL QlESTIONS MR . AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Speak er, the n to the Minister of Mines and Reso urce s. In view of the issue raised by the North Dakota Farm Organizations on the reliability of that information, is he , or is this government prepared now to assemble a task force of Manitoba scientists, en gineers , and ec onomists to provide an independent analysis of the impact or effe cts of the Garrison Diversion in the water quality question in southwest Manitoba. MR . GREEN: Mr.

Speak er, we have in this case the unique advantage of having our officials, the Canadian officials, the officials of the Federal Government of the United States and the officials of the Gove rnment of North Dakota, plus the ir Garrison Diversion Pr ogram group who will be meeting together, looking at all of the studie s that have been done , looking at those things which the Government of No rth Dakota and the Government of the United States have indicated will be done to preven t pollution of Manitoba waters , as undertaken by the Government of the United State s, which note was de scribed, Mr.

Speak er, as perf ectly satis factory by the Liberal Minister of External Affairs, Mitche ll Sharp, a forme r Manitoba resi dent , who said that there is absolutely no reason to say that the United States will not fulfill the obligations that it has made to Canada unde r this note.

And we have been a little bit less sanguine that the Minister of External Affairs for the Government of Canada, the Liberal Minister of External Affairs for the Government of Ca nada, we have said to the Government of North Dakota, show us how you intend to fulfill the obligations which you have undertaken in this note , and we have therefore arranged the meet ings of those four governments that I have spoke n of to go over the information and, if necessary, to get new information. MR . AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speak er, in view of the Minister' s statemen t just now, could he explain to this House why the Minister of Environment at the Federal level registered his opposition, and also said that the U .S . State De partme nt is opposed to the dtversi on plan? MR . GREEN: Mr. Speake r, if he •s ref erring to the Minister of Environment in the Government of Canada , the n I would only have to say, Mr.

Spe aker, that the Minister of Environment of the Government of Canada does not talk to the Minister of External Affairs of the Government of Ca nada, and that is a problem which is not for me but for the First Minister of Canada to deal with. With regard to the other que stion as to how can I explain Mr. Davis' responses? I' ve never been able to explain them, and I will not be able to explain them now. I can only say that the Gover nment of Manitoba has said that if the United States State De partment says there will be no pollution of Manitoba waters , we are taking the position, show us. For that reason, Mr.

Speak er, we have a committee of officials, involving the officials of the four governme nts , and also a monitoring committee of public repr esen tatives to make sure that the committee of officials are doing their job. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr.

Speak er, following up the same line of que stioning, I then ask the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources now, if he confirms or agrees with the question that I put to the First Minister the other day whe n he said in repl y to me , that the pollution that might occur from the diversion of the Garrison Dam would be minute. Now any furthe r --(Interjectio n)-- All right , any further pollution must be taken into consideration. Does he agree with this that there will be further pollution into the Souris, into the Assiniboine, into the Red and into the Winnipeg Lake. MR . GREEN: Mr.

Speak er, I have on, I think at least three occasions, indicated to my honourable friend and to the members of the House, and I' ve tabled docume nts which indicate that there will be problems associated with the three rivers, the water bodies concerned. And that is why , Mr. Speake r, this government asked the Federal Government to ask for a moratorium on the project - which the Federal Government then did.

In res ponse to which the United States Government indicated that there would be no pollution of Manitoba waters , to which the Federal Minister of External Affairs said that that is entirely satisfactory, and to which the Manitoba Government said, no we want to see how they propose to do that - and thaL is why the committee was set up. MR . WATT: I ask the Honourable Minister is it not a fact that the project is now unde r way in spite of the fact that there are negotiations going on, that the American Governme nt have now proceeded with the projec tion of the divers ion of the Garrison into the Souris River?

MR . GREEN: Mr. Speak er, that program has been under way I be lieve since 1965, a period of nine yea rs. The part --(Interjecti on)-- it •s not all paper, Mr. Speaker. Construction

993 March 4, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN cont1d) .•.•. works have been under way for many years . The part that will affe ct the Souris River is not scheduled to go into construction until the late 1970s at the earliest. We have been able , Mr. Speaker, beca use we have not done what the Leade r of the Liberal Pa rty , that supreme negotiator, would have done , said, give us compens ation be cause I sugges t, Mr. Speak er, if we would have said that the United States Gover nment would have given it immediate ly, and they would have proceeded with the program in whatever way they wanted to.

We have succeeded, Mr. Spea k er, in getting an undertaking from the Federal Government of the United States saying there will be no pollution; we have also succeeded in getting our selves involved in an in-house Committee with the people who are doing the job to see how they intend to achieve that; we also have succe eded in getting an unde rtaking from the Governor of No rth Dakota with ourselves that policy pe ople will monitor the work of that committee on a six months basis , the first meeting to take place six months from today. Mr.

Speak er, that has been done in my opinion because we have handled ourselves vis-a-vis our neighbours in a proper way; and if we would have handled ourselves in the way that I have heard certain mem bers suggest that we handle ourselve s, then I suggest to you that the res ponse of the United States would have been, well these people are impossible to deal with, we will ignore them and go ahe ad with the project just as we see fit. We have not done that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE AKER : The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speake r.

My question is to the Honourable the Minister of Mines, Energ y and Natural Res ources in his capacity as the Minister for the Manitoba Deve lopment Corpora tion. Has the Minister met today , or did he meet today , with represent atives of the striking mill and bush workers from the Columbia Fore st Industries plant? MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . GREEN: No, Mr. Speak er. But so there be no misundersta nding, Mr.

Speaker, a group of pe ople from the area came in to see me vis-a-vis the problems that have been experienced in that plant for the past many ye ars, and were good enough to give me the ir opinions as to how some of those problems they fe el could be dealt with. Continuing meetings will take place with some of the people in that meeting and directors of the -- and people from the Manitoba Devel opme nt Corporation. MR. SHERMAN: A suppleme ntary, Mr. Speaker. Are the pe ople from the area whom the Minister de scribes , people who include mill and bush workers at the plant and among their number , strikers ? MR .

GREEN: Mr. Speak er, that may be , but none of them identified themsel ves to me as strikers nor, except for one fairly remote remark, was the strike discussed. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. J. PAUL MARION (St. Boniface): Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I direct my qu estion to the Honourable the Minister for Consumer and Co rporate Affairs.

I wonde r if the Minister can advise if he has received assurances from those consultants which will be opera ting the PEP funde d Community Income Tax Services Incorporated that they will be capable in answer ing the requ ests or the que ries that will be made to them vis-a-vis income tax problems? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON.

IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Cor porate and Ip.ternal Services) (Osborne): I would be ple ased to deal with that que stion but I be lieve it would be more appropriately dealt with through the Minister of Finance or the Minister res ponsible for PEP. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CHERNIACK: Mr.

Spea ker, dealing only with that part of the que stion relating to the ability of the pe ople involved to assist and guide persons in the preparation of their tax return, the departme nt, the division of my department which has been dealing with these tax returns for the last two years has been requ ested and has agreed to give as good advice as we can on this very issue so as to guide this project in being able to deliver that service to people who are in need of it at a - in order to prevent outrageous prices both for doing the work and for the selling of the returnable portions of the T-4 slips. MR.

MARION: A supplementary , Mr. Spe aker , to the same Minister. Is this organi zation tied in in any way with the credit union movement? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Spea ker, it' s my understa nding that this group has made arrangements with a credit union to provide funding at a lower cost than is now being charged on the market other than that.

994 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Attorney-Ge neral. March 4, 1974 MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Speake r, I•d like to res pond to a que stion that was taken in my absence on notice by the Premier, a que stion posed by the Member for Fort Rouge in respect to instructing Land Titles Offices to expedite the processing of 300 unregiste red lots because ce rtain building was taking place upon those lots.

My information is to the effect that if a plan of subdivision had been approved or is approved by the appropriate municipal authority, then the Land Titles Office would be in a position to proces s the titles in a space of seven to ten days. I can only assume , short of further information, that the proble m here must be that the plan of subdivision has not been approved by the appropriate municipal authority involved. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR . DA VID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr. Spe ake r, my que stion is directed to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture .

I wonde r in view of the concern expressed by the cattlemen, a large number of cattlemen in Manitoba, and esp ecially the users of AI, - over the past numbe r of months, I wonde r if he is considering in this session bringing in an amendm ent to Bill 120 removing the monopolistic clause which these AI. users have found unsatisfactory to their require ments ? MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Spe ake r, I•m not considering doing that, MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake) : Mr.

Speake r, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture. I would like to ask him if he can confirm whethe r or not all retail store s who sell milk ove r the counter and other dairy products require a licence ? MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . USKIW: I believe that is true . I•d have to take that que stion as notice to be more precise , Mr. Speaker. MR . EINARSON: Mr. Speake r, I direct a seco nd question to the Minister, and would appreciate if he would also take a sec ond que stion as notice and give us an explanation of why a license is required. MR . USKIW: Mr.

Speake r, I think the honourable member has access to the Milk Control Act, and I don't specifically re call whethe r in fact all retail outlets are required to be licensed. But he can look it up for himself if he wishes. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Par ty. MR . ASPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister for Agriculture , Can he indicate to the House what the position is on the grants and loans, and I take it we ' re talking about grants whe n we speak of the cattle divers ification program, or perhaps both - unde r what circumstances are grants repayable if the farmer, the recipient , abuses the grant, for example in the case that is being discussed today, where the cattle have been badly treated and die of starvation? MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, we have two diffe rent programs.

One is a program outside of ARDA, which is a straight credit transaction whe rein grants are provided unde r ce rtain conditions. Co mmitment has to be made that increases in livesto ck herds would be maintained for five years . If those conditions are not met, the n of course the grant is not provided. On the ARDA project, of course, I don' t believe there is a provision whatever. MR . ASPER: To the same Minister, Could he clarify or explain where negligence is discovered and the crop or the herd is lost would the grant be repayable by the . . . MR . SCHREYER: Point of orde r. MR .

SPE AKER: Would the Honourable First Minister state his point of order? MR . SCHREYER: Yes , Mr. Speaker, My point of orde r is that I believe it' s generally unde rstood and acce pted in this House that whe n a Minister's Estimates, the est imates of a particular department are currently before this House, that quest ions of detail interpre tation are defe rred from the que stion period and dealt with later that very same day in consideration of estimates. MR . SPE AKER: Orde r please .

The Honourable First Minister gave me an opportunity to really become on the ball because much as I apprec iate his point of orde r it was not valid. But I will indicate that it is valid, or it is invalid to ask a que stion asking for a legal inter pretation of a statute , and that' s what the honourable member is doing, The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Par ty.

March 4, 1974 995 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . ASPER: Mr. Speak er, the Minister I be lieve was willing to answer the que stion. It didn•t involve an

interpretation .•• MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Does the hon ourable member wish to ask a question? MR . ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speak er. I am asking about departmental practice. Is it the practice of the department where there has been negligent handling of cattle and a grant has been made , is it the practice of the department to demand rep ayme nt? MR . USKIW: Mr. Speak er, I think that it would be most appropriate if the Honourable Lea der of the Liberal Party would wait for the Estimates period, whe rein we can have a full debate on the su bject matter. MR . ASPER: Yes , Mr.

Speak er, I•ll ask a very spe cific questi on to the Minister of Agriculture. Were the cattle that were purchased with provincial grants by Gordon Monkman, was the growing program supervised and were steps taken to en sure that the ... MR . SPE AKER: Order please . Order please. The Honourable Attorney-Ge neral state his point of order. MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, I'm beco ming increasingly concerned about ref erence to a particular case which I unde rstand is going to be heard before the courts and I do think it' s not fair for rep eated refe rences to this case which may prejudice the party in que stion. MR .

SPEAKER: The point is well taken. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR . AXWORTHY: Mr. Speak er , I'd like to direct a que stion to the Minister of Health and Social De velopme nt in ref ere nce to a que stion raised on Thursday concerning a reque st from the Manitoba Association of Medical Stude nts. Has the Minister yet found that reque st in either his �ffice or in the depar tment, and if so, is he prepared now to meet with the students to discuss remuneration with them? MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Hea lth. HON . SAUL A.

MILLER (Minister of Heal th and Social Dev el opment) (Seven Oaks) : Yes , Mr. Speak er, I•m aware of the reque st by the fourth year medical students. The matter has been before government for some time. There are many implications or ramifications in meeti ng their req;.tes ts, and at the present time there are no immediate steps to meet their requ ests. MR . AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speak er, I wonder if the Minister could confirm to this House whether it is a fact that the medical students and medical clerks in Manitoba are only one amongst two provinces where no monthly remuneration at all is received by them compared to other provinces. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker , I believ e that is true . It •s also true to say that no other province has as good a student aid program as Manitoba. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. TABLING OF REPORTS MR . PAULLEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, all I want is the permiss ion of the House, if I may obtain it, to rev ert to Tabling of Re ports.

I wish to table the Annual Report of the Workmen ' s Compensation Board for 1973 if I have the agreement. (Agreed) ORAL QUESTIONS Cont•d MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . PATRICK: Mr. Speak er, my qu_estion is to the Minister of Labour. I wonder if the Minister can give us information about the contingency plan which he earlier advised exists, res pe cting provision of essen tial police serv ices in a strike situation. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAULLEY: The answer actually is no, Mr. Speaker. I could give him information but we haven ' t a strike.

The matter is under active consideration by the Attorney-Ge neral and the Minister of Labour and if in the even t of a strike , plans will be reveal ed. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR . MARION: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I' d like to dire ct my que stion to the Honourable the Minister of Health. Can the Minister advise if his department has received any reque sts from the public sector to set up a central abortion clinic? MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . MILLER: No, Mr. Speak er, I have not heard of such a request.

996 March 4, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR . WATT: Mr. Spe aker, I would like to direct a que stion to the Minister of Agriculture. I wonde r if the Minister can tell us if he ' s taken a positive position with the fede ral authorities, the railways , and the grain companies in regard to the loss of sales of grain from western Canada, including Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, through the Van couver port beca use of the lack of movement of grain, and if he now agrees that • . . MR . SPE AKER: Orde r plea se. Order please. The second

part is argumentative. MR . WATT: Okay, I don't want to argue with him at all, I just want to ask him a question. MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speak er, there have been many occasions whe rein the subject matter was discussed over the last - well it's actually now a couple of years, because it has to do with the whole que stion of the railway system and the abandonment of railway branch lines and the building of boxcars for allocation for the grains industry.

My honourable friend fully knows that the railway companies are trying to bring about a squeeze on the whole que stion of the movement of grain in orde r that some measu res would be taken to remov e the Crow' s Nest freight rate s. MR . WATT: A supplementary question, the n. Does the Minister now agree that the movement of grain out of the Vancouver port is directly affected - or that the farmers in Manitoba are dire ctly affected by the movement of grain through the Vancouver port? MR . USKIW: Mr.

Speaker , I think reall y what the honourable member is trying to ask me is whe ther I would now, three or four years - no several years later, agree that he should have made that trip to Vancouver whe n he did. MR . SPE AKER : The Honourable Member for La Veren drye. MR . BOB BANMAN (La Vere ndrye) : Thank you, Mr. Speake r. I direct my que stion to • MR . SPE AKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR . WATT: Would the Minister of Agriculture now agree that he should go to Vancouver and find out what the hell 's going on out there and why grain isn't being moved, and why we are losing sales? MR .

SP EAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for La Vere ndyre. MR . BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my que stion to the Honourable the Minister in charge of the Manitoba De velopment Fund. Did the people from Sprague that met with him this morning expre ss concern about the operational viability and the future of the plant at Sprague? MR. SIEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . GREEN: Yes , Mr. Speak er. MR . BANMAN: A supplementary que stion, Mr. Speaker. Does the government intend to use the insurance settlement to rebuild Columbia Forest or will it be applied against the MDC loan? MR .

GREEN: There is no existing intention to rebuild the chip board plant, Mr. Speaker. Therefore the money will be taken as part of the indebtedness owned by the Corporation to the Manitoba Deve lopment Corporation. MR . SP EAKER : The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, could I have the leave of the House , Sir, to make a brief statemen t of a non-political nature? (Agreed) STATEMENT MR. SPE AKER : The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Thank you, Sir. Actually it's in the nature , Sir, of a prese ntation to the Honourable the First Minister.

I' ve been asked by the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg, His Worship Stephen Juba, to presen t to the First Minister a memento of what was a memor able evening on Saturday night at the Winnipeg Arena, Sir, the first hockey classic between the Golde n Boys and the City Fathers. This is a small, minor replica- which 11ll send over to the honourable gentleman by a page , Sir - that will remind him of the ef forts put forth by his colleagues that ev ening and by himself in attempting to uphold the honour of this Chamber against the City Council. Sir, the stick is small in size , and I don't suggest there ' s any

March 4, 1974 997 STATEMENT (MR. SHERMAN cont•d) ..•.. significance to it, there was no admonition from His Worship to suggest to the First Minister that he walk softly but carry a small stick; and there was no suggestion that his stickhandling capabilities bei ng what they are, it was unde rstood that he didn•t need a re gulation size stick to compete in the contest in this Chamber. But the memento does go to him with the best wishes of the Mayor and I •m sure all C ity Council. It was made by a Mr.

Cartwright who is the fathe r of one of the City Councillors playing on Saturday night, and it•s my pleasure to act as the Mayor' s go-between in this pre sentation, Sir. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speake r, in thanking the Honourable Member for Fort Garry for relaying this memento or token in commem oration of the event of last Saturday , I thank him, and through him wish to thank His Worship the Mayor of the City. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that whe n I look at the configuration, not only the size but the configuration of the hockey stick, that I can see why our team lost.

One couldn1t get away any kind of a slap shot, nor could he get away a shot that would fool any goalkeeper.

But de spite that, Sir, I unde rstand that with that shortcoming-notwithstanding that the Golde n Boys did at least make a very valiant effort and that had they had perhaps just one or two more opportunities to practise , and had I perhaps not had two standing prior engagements in No rthe rn Manitoba and been able to jo in them, that it might have turned out otherwise. (Applause) It would be remiss on my part, Sir, if I did not acknowledge on behalf of the Golden Boys that did play to thank them all, and to also in particular to take note of the fact that the Honourable Member for Morris performed exceptionally well, stout-he arted goalie that he was. (Applause) Having played goal only once or twice in my past years I think I can understand the mortal fe ar with which he cowered in the net knowing the calibre of the def encemen in front of him.

But I unde rstand, Sir, that he did play exce ptionally well on behalf of the Province of Manitoba and he is congratulated in particular, as all are. Thank you. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont•d MR . SPE AKER: The Membe r for Ste. Rose. MR . A.R. (Pet

e) ADAM (Ste. Rose) : Thank you very much , Mr. Speaker, I have a que stion for the Minister of Agriculture. I'm wonde ring if he could confirm if the loss, the excessive loss of newborn calves is the result of lack of Vitamin K in the fodde r this year? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Mr. Spe ake r, I think that we have accep ted as a matter of fact that there have been general defic iency problems but I couldn't be that specific, Mr. Speaker. MR . ADAM: A supplementary , Mr. Speaker.

I wonde r if -- this is quite important to the livesto ck producers of Manitoba, and I wonde r if the Minister could unde rtake to make investigations if this is a mineral that is really quite deficient in the fe ed this year? MR . USKIW: Mr. Speake r, I'll have to take that as notice. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my que stion is to the First Minister and it arises out of the remar ks he made in re sponse to those of the Honourable Member from Fort Garry.

My only question is, will he confirm that there is no intention by his government resulting from Saturday night•s events to cut the size of the grant or the size of City Council itself? MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Per hjlps both in equal amounts. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Lakes ide. MR . ENNS: Mr. Spe aker, in the same vein, I direct a que stion to the First Minister. Is he in receipt of a note of thanks with gratitude from one Robert Marvin Hull for the obvious inspiration the Golde n Boys gave him of the Saturd ay's • • • MR .

SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): Mr. Speake r, this is to all the Golde n Boys , the Health Spa in the CPR Building is extending a free steam and sauna for those that wish to take advantage in case you have any aching bones, you can go there anytime during the week. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: Per haps , Mr.

Speake r, while we 're on the topic and in this vein, we should acknowledge for the records that last night Bobby Hull did score his 3 goal hat-trick and passed the number of 700 goals in profe ssional hockey which he is only the sec ond player to do

998 March 4, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS Cont •d (MR. CRAIK Cont'd) .•... in the history of the game along with Gordie Howe. MR. SPE AKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. ORDERS OF THE DAY - SCHEDULED MEETINGS MR. GREEN: Mr. Speak er, I•d like to rem ind honourable members that we•ve called the meeting of Public Accounts for tomorrow at 10:00 o' clock. I' d also like to give notice that we would want to have Public Utilities meet on Thursday of this week for considera tion of the tele phone report.

Unless there is any problem associated with the honourable memb ers , I intend that those meetings will be held. Mr. Speaker, I would like you to . • • MR. SPE AKER: There are some Orders for Return first, then we can go to the others. Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia, ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. PATRICK: Mr. Spe ake r, I beg to move , sec onded by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface , That an order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1. The number of new industries es tablished in Manitoba in 1973. 2. The names and locations of said industries. 3.

The number of empl oyees employed by each new industry. 4, The initial capital inves tment of each comp any. MOTION presented. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce . MR . EV ANS: Yes , Mr. Speak er, we are quite prepared to accep t the Order for Return to the extent that we have the ability to answer the que stions that are asked of us. As the honourable member unde rstands we rel y to a considerable extent on Statistics Canada and upon the Department of Regional Economic Expansion for these types of statistics.

To the extent that we have those statistics, we•ll make them available but we cannot guarantee that we have every last figure on every last industry, or every last em ployee that has been given a job in the province in this period of time. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speak er, I beg to mo ve , sec onded by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface , That an order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1. Numbe r of parcel s of privately owned land the gover nment has taken into use in its highway program during each calendar year 1972, 1973. 2.

How many of the above parcels of land were taken before final settlemen t was reached with the owner. 3, How many of the cases ref erred to in que stion 2, still are unsettled and how long has settlemen t been pending. MOTION presen ted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation. HON . PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin): Ye s, Mr. Speak er, we accep t that order. MR. SPE AKER: Agreed ? So orde red. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Spe aker, I beg to move , sec onded by the Honourable Member for Po rtage la Pr airie , That an order of the House do issue for a Return showing in each case: Amounts recei ved by govern ment in the fiscal year 1972-73 from the following Corpora- tions for: (

a) royalties (

b) ren tals, license s, permits and fee s, (

c) stumpage , or any other income or taxes , including Mineral Acreage Tax in the companies: 1. Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Co. Ltd. 2, International Nickel 3, Sherritt Gordon Mines 4, Falconbridge Nickel Mines Ltd. 5. Churchill Forest Industries.

March 4, 1974 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. ASPER Cont•d) 6. Abitibi Pulp and Paper. 7. Tantalum Mining. 8. Churchill Forest Industries. MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. 999 MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I must indicate that there is some -- there is lack of clarity in this resolution in several respects, and in addition I suppose only an expert in taxation would know that much of this is not permissible, so that we cannot accept it in the form proposed. If the honourable member wants to debate it, then of course it can be stood over.

If on the other hand he wants to withdraw it and discuss with probably the Minister of Mines and me a proper form for presentation, then we might --(Interjection)-- No. He can either put it over for debate or withdraw this • • • MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leade�: of the Liberal Party. MR . ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to put it over for debate. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded bytheMe mber for Assiniboia That an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information with respect to the inspection of public buildings in the Province of Manitoba: l. The number of public buildings in the province; 2. The location of these buildings; 3, The date of construction of these buildings; 4. The date of inspection of these buildings; 5. The name of the inspector responsible for the inspection of each building; 6. The qualifications and credentials of the inspectors. MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR .

SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, this Order for Return also lacks clarity and in ceTtain respects seems to be grossly beyond any reasonable and convenient means to the Crown to answer. I refer specificially, Sir, to the fact that reference is made to the number of public buildings, that could be interpreted to mean buildings owned by the Crown, or it could refer to all buildings owned by the Crown and by municipalities and by the Government of Canada. It could also refer to those buildings that come under the ambit of the statute entitled

An Act Respecting Public Buildings, which certainly is much wider in its category. And then, Sir, I also could point out that asking for the name of the individual inspector who carries out inspection services on behalf of the Crown is something which in the past, in the present day, in the future, I would assume would not be made available in any case so we reject the order. MR . SPEAKER: The Order has been rejected. Agreed? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for St ••.. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, to the honourable member, in fairness it should be pointed out to him that he can ask that it be put over for debate. MR .

AXWOR THY: Well, Mr. Speaker, in this case I would prefer to redraft the Order for Return and resubmit it, MR . SPEAKER: In that case, it' s withdrawn. Very well. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR . MARION: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Portage la Prairie, That an order of the House do issue for a Return showing: l. The total number of vehicles now owned or leased by the Manitoba Government and/or any of its boards, commissions, Crown corporations or other agencies, detailing.the vehicles supplied to each department and/or boards, etc. 2.

The cost of operating the vehicles referred to above. for each department and/or boards, commissions, etc. excluding the insurance costs. 3, The total cost of insurance to cover the vehicles as described in No. l above. 4. The total number of vehicles owned or leased by the Manitoba Governmem and/or any of its boards, commissions, Crown corporations or other agencies, detailing the vehicles supplied to each department and/or boards, etc. all as of July 15, 1969.

1000 March 4, 1974 ORDERS FOR RE TURN MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Firs t Minister. MR. SC HREYER: Mr. Speaker, we accept this Order subject to the usual caveat res pecting reaso nableness and cost in terms of obtaining the information in accordance with Citation - I believe it' s -- well whatever the Citation No. of Beauchesne. MR. SPEAKER : Agreed ? (Agreed) . Ajourned debates. GOVERNMENT BILLS - SECON D RE ADING - NO. 7 MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, can we have ... MR. SPEAKER: No. 7, the Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R, FERGU SON (Gladstone) : Mr.

Speaker, could I have this stand? If anyone else likes to speak, I have no objection. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed ? The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, in entering the debate on this bill it comes at a time when we've had the opportunity of reviewing the bill and an extensive debate. It will be my purpose, Mr. Speaker, to make reference throughout my pres entation of the remarks of the members opposite because it's my belief, Mr .

Speaker, that though the bill contains only 15 sections it does contain sections which - about half a dozen - which are significant in which there are more than one or two principles involved which command our attention. Mr. Speaker, two of the principles have already received considerable attention in the debate and that is the question of allowing civil ser vants the right to seek political office without affecting their status as civil servants. The other, Mr.

Speaker, is allowing civil servants the full ra nge of political activities allegedly open to all employees, that is the rig ht to campaign in the election and to solicit funds for political parties. Now the Honourable Minister of Labour when he introduced the bill in his usual manner skirted the '\et, or the propo sals, by suggesting that this was really a change of "a sort of housekeeping", - and I'm quoting, Mr. Speaker, from Hansard - "a sort of housekeeping basis to clarify some of the points contained in the present Ci vil Service Act. " And it will be my intention, Mr.

Speaker , in dealing with this to point out that it is far from housekeeping the government is proposing. In fact, Mr . Speaker, one wonders whether the member s opposite, including the members of the Cabinet, really understand the implications of some of the sections that are being proposed and truly have an appreciation of what this bill propo ses. In fact, Mr. Speaker - and I'm sorry the Minister of Finance walked out.

I heard his off-the cuff remarks to the Minister - in speaking on the bill himself, he indicated that he thought that the principle of the bill was this, not that he had read it but he thought that it was, and he thought that the only principle was the question of the political involvement or the opportunity for civil servants to run for political office. And those very words, Mr.

Speaker - and if I had to I could quote them from Hansard, but I'll paraphrase them now- are indicative to me of the fact that the member s opposite don' t really know what this bill contains and are not really familiar with the impHcations of what' s being proposed. And it's my intention in dealing with it to. deal with those matters. Now fir st with respect to the question of the political equality that is to be offered for civil servants. Mr. Speaker, the members on the opposite keep saying that there is one principle involved and yet, Mr.

Speaker, we really are talking about two principles, and! would hope, Mr. Speaker, that when we discuss this in this debate that we're going to be in a position to influence the members opposite in attempting to bring in amendments which will clarify both principles, so that there will in fact be some kind of consensus in this Chamber . And, Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Liberal Party is not here and the Member for Fort Rouge is not here, but I would hope that when they have the opportunity of reading my remarks that we're going to be able to persuade them that on this issue unless the bill is prepared to be amended by the government, and it is expressed by the government that they will bring in such amendments, that because the bill goes far beyond what the auihors themselves claim for it, and which confers on the government powers that no one in this Chamber , including I suggest the backbencher s of the New De mocratic Party, would want the government to have, that they will be per suaded as a resu lt of it to vote against the bill unless, Mr .

Speaker, · amendments are going to be brought forth. Now let me deal with the first principle, the principle of political candidacy, the right

March 4, 1974 10 01 BILL NO. 7 (MR. SPIV AK cont'd) . . . . to run. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are obviously a wide range of opinion, all the way from those who would reject candidacy on the part of ci vil servants out right, to those who would encourage candidacy with the full protection and security, and this has been expressed to a certain extent by some of the members who have spoken on our Party. But I want to make it clear, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to our position, that we believe civil ser vants should be encouraged to seek public office and re ject any notion of applying some kind of sanction from encouraging them to seek public office. We re ject the proposition that civil ser vants should be discouraged from seeking public office; and we reject any suggestion that some kind of sanction should be applie d to ensure that res ult. We say , Mr.

Speaker, let us facilitate the candidacy of public servants; let us guarantee in the event of their defeat that their seniority, that their tenure and their staff benefits are unimpaired, and let us ensure that they will be eligible for their old job if it re mains unfilled or an equivalent position as it becomes available. This indeed, Mr. Speaker, is the po sition in On tario. Indeed the On tario Act, Mr. Speaker, goes farther because it provides that even after five years in public office a civil ser vant might return to an equivalent po sition in the public service.

If you wish, equality appointments for the civil servants to seek electi ve office, this is the area in which we suggest, Mr. Speaker, that if the government was going to innovate, this was the kind of po sition that they should have undertaken. Because, Mr. Speaker, if in fact someone does retir e from the Civil Service by running for public office and is elected, is he to be penalized if he is defeated in the next election? And surely, Mr. Speaker, this problem is much more severe than that faced by a civil servant after a 60 or 90 day leave of absence. Yet on this, Mr.

Speaker, the bill is sile nt, while it seeks to codify in a rigid way, a ri ght that most ci vil servants already enjoy. Now, Mr . Speaker, that is on the right of the civil ser vant to run for political office, federal or provincial. But now on the other principle, which I suggest that the members opposite fail to distinguish, on the question of the other political activities of the civil ser vants our views and the government diverge much more sharp ly. Mr.

Speaker , we do not hold with the view that the relationship between the government and its employees is the same as any other employer employee rel ationship. A MEMBE R: Hear , hear. MR. SPIV AK: We say this because we recognize, as all people must recognize that government is not like any other employer in our society. All the coerciVe power that the state has at its disposal is embodied in the power of government. Government has the power to alter and effect all sorts of re lationships in the soc iety, and therefore, Mr . Speaker, those civil servants are also by definition ser vants of the public.

They are als o in the most direct way the ser-vants of the most powerful institution in the society. I suggest that there' a no clear way that you can or will be able to distinguish between the actions of civil ser vants as agents of government, as _oppo sed to them as agents of the Party in power, once you remove the prohibition that now exists on parti san political activity by civil servants. Where will the line be drawn between members of the Civil Service in their dealings with one another; where will it be drawn in their dealings with the public? Now, Mr.

Speaker, I hold in my hand a document that illus trates the problem. This, Mr. Speaker , is a raffle ticket being sold in the provincial buildings for the Manitoba New Democratic Party. The rrioney is to go for a draw, or this is a raffle for a draw, the money of which will go to the New Democratic Party. It is to be drawn on June Hi, 1974, by the Pres ident of the New Democratic Party. This is a fund rais ing campaign of the present government, of its political party. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there 1 s nothing wrong. with raffles or fund raising , but I pose the question: if a branch director in a government department has taken such tickets around to his subordinates, to the people to whom his goodwill is important, can it seriously be argued that they would not thereby have been pl aced in an invidious position, many would themselves be supporting the governing party against their will as a kind of an insurance policy; or alternately , refusing to buy and perhaps thereby implying something about their political beliefs and that may be perhaps wrongly, but implying something nonetheless that is re ally no one else' s business.

Now, Mr. Speaker, let' s consider for a few examples other government institutions.

1002 March 4, 1974 BILL NO, 7 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) .... Let' s consider the rentalsman, and the people involved in the rentalsman' s activity, where complaints are regi stered and work must be undertaken in dealing with many of the landlords in this city. Consider the consumer's office where people must investigate actions by people who claim that in some way the Consumer Act has been violated. What about the problems of the Purchasing Bureau and the whole range of government involve ment in the allocation of order s for work to be delivered and for services to be given?

Let us look at the Human Rights Commission, which is a very sensitive area, where civil ser vants must investigate a whole range of sensitive areas in which people are in the position of being investigated on charges that may or may not be true; the whole question of the Public Works Department and the contracts to be awarded by that department; of the Highways Department; the re lationship of the civil servants who are dealing with the Dep artment of Health and Social Development in the welfare field, and have the discretion that must be exercised by them as to whether a person should or should not receive a particular amount that the:y may be entitled to under the Act; or civil servants who deal with the Attorney-General' s De partment, and who are in a very; sensitive area of whether a prosecution should take place or not.

Mr. Speaker , all of the civil servants in the few examples that I have mentioned have discretionary power and are capable of exercising discr etionary judgment about the problems of individuals and the situations of groups of per sons in the community with whom they deal on a day to day basis. Do you really want, Mr. Speaker , and I ask the government, do you want these people to be involved in the political proce ss ? A MEMBER: They do. MR.

SPIVAK: Do you really believe that such persons can combine professional responsibilities with an overt political role without professional responsibilities being impaired or comprised ? Mr. Speaker, will not those on the receiving end of services, or advice, or assi stance, of the types of civil ser vants that I have mentioned , see an additional reason for maintaining their goodwill if they come to see civil ser vants not only as agents of the govern ment but as agents of the parties. A few weeks ago, Mr.

Speaker , on the radio program "Up To Now" the biographer of Richard Da ly and I believe the book is called "D aly" from Chicago appeared on the radio and was interviewed. That pre sentation wasan enlightening one to me. He talked about the book, but he also talked about the ward system that was used by the De mocratic Daly machine in Chicago, and he pointed out, Mr.

Speaker, that it had, in his opinion, some benefits in the earlier years before government became involved in the whole social service field, because he said at least the person who was in charge of the ward, who was the political boss of the ward, had the ability to be able to respond to the needs of the people, and was in the position to at least see that some funds were available from government for people who were dis advantaged because of their particular situation, or who required some kind of assis tance, he was able to bring it to the attention of the government.

And he did this for two reasons: one, because people were in some difficulty and that had to be drawn , and he was the political boss of the area; but more importantly by acting on their behalf, he was going to have the people beholden to him, and that meant, Mr. Speaker , that when the election came he was going to be able to deliver the ward. Now, Mr.

Speaker, those are Chicago' American politics - I could describe Tammany Hall in the same way - and what the honourable members opposite are proposin g now is to take the civil servants who now can become active in the political pro cess, who in effect are going to be in this same kind of position, and are going to be capable, Mr. Speaker , of accomplishing that which the machine, which I think is repugnant to all of us, has been able to accomplish in Chicago. And surely, Mr. Speaker, that is a retrog ressive , a retrog ressive step on the part of government. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to quote as well from a handbook of public administration pro duced by the United Nations , called "C urrent Con cepts and Practices with Special Reference to Dev eloping Co untries" , and I'd like to deal with several paragraphs dealing with political neutrality and the career service. This in on page 38 - 36 of the book.

"Political neutrality is an essential complement to the merit system for it guarantees that career officials who have competed for their posts and advanced by merits of the highest rank, will give the government, whatever its political makeup, absolute impartial advice, criticism and assi stance on any matter which concerns it. Further, it is shared that Ministers that whether they accept

March 4, 1974 1003 BILL NO. 7 (MR. SPIVAK cont'

d) the advice of the career officials or not, their ultimate decisions will be loyally accepted and faithfully carrie d out. Political neutrality means more than the mere absence of political activity or bias on the part of individual career officials. It means that the career official will always re spond to the will of the government; if he finds his depart ment policy distasteful on some specific ground, he may of course make known his opjection in the proper manner , but having done so he must, if they are re jected , accept the policy and carry it out.

In rare cases where the official feels that his moral or religious acceptabilities are involved, he should have the option to be given employment in some other capacity or to resign. "It takes time and patience to build up a political adminis trative rel ationship .of this kind, based upon understanding and confidence between the minis ters and officials. The minister has to support and defend the decisions of permanent officials and to regard their advice as confidential. He deprives hims elf of experienced counsel unless he permits high career officials to sp eak frankly without fear of rebukes or penalti es.

Such a rel ationship helps maintain the minister's respon sibility for the policy and the conduct of his minister. The price of an official career is a high degree of anonymity. The car eer official for his part must accept some limitation of po litical activities. He may retain his basic political right to vote in local and national electio ns, but his standing as an impartial adviser and administrator would be impair ed if he engaged in political activity in such a way as to commit himself wholly or to the views of any one Party. " Now, Mr. Speaker, this book was for a guidance for underdeveloped countries.

And it's somewhat curious, Mr. Speaker , that it seems necessary to remind the Government of Manitoba of what the so- called enlightened societies were offering to the Third World ten years ago. Mr. Speaker, we want civil ser vants to enjoy full political rights for candidacy. How ever, the evidence of the raffle ticket underlines the failure to define and protect the rights of those who want to be a po litical. And I'd like to if I may refer to the remarks of the Honourable Member for R:>rtage, because he pointed that out. How do you deal with tiE ci vil ser vants who want to be a-political ?

How are they going to be a-political when you have ap olitical Civil Ser vice ? How are they going to be able to deal with their dernrtment heads, with their officials within their ownran geofa ctivity, when they havepeople who are committed tothe party, who are committed to think of the government they maintain , and whose every action - and I'm not talking about the a political civil ser vants- will be examined and watched to see what, if any, and how .they are handling themselves with respect to the problems that they have to deal with. Mr.

Speaker, the survival of any government depends on its being able to persuade large numbers of people to support it, and this is what the government' s trying to do. Now the survival of the T. Eaton Company, or Salis bury House, or Mary Scorer's books, is not depend ent on any agreement between the employer and employee beyond seeing that the firm functions efficiently, is able to maintain a profit, and has good public re lations. But, Mr.

Speaker, the proposals before us I believe bespeak a guilty conscience on the part of the government to pro vide· a, positive retroacti ve sanction for a policy upon which they have already embarked; and I suggest that we check this process rather than legitimatize it. Mr . Speaker, the proposals I've talked about have already rece ived some attention. There are three others which merit attention, because taken together, and with those already mentioned, they collectively constitute a very serious threat to the Civil Service.

Several parts of this bill will have the effect of altering or conferring the power to alter the composition of the Civil Service Co mmission. Th e Commission and its equivalent in other provinc es, Mr. Speaker, represents a device for which over the last 50 years we have moved pork barrelism and wholesale patronage to the merit system . The independence of the Com mission has never been absolute, but has been sufficient that a government wishing to by-pass it had to employ somewhat unusual measur es , or to come back to the Le gislature itself.

Under the present government, one of the most extensive ways of by-p assing the Commis sion and the merit system has been the use of technical officer device and the contract arrangements which we have seen so much of in the Department of Northern Affairs. Mr. Speaker, there can be little question that in many cases these devices are used to employ persons whose chief qualifications are poli tical, and whose applications would not normally be meeting the standards impose d by the Commissi on. This bill, however, will

1004 March 4, 197 4 BILL NO. 7 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) .... change that by changing the Commission. This bill will give the government unlimited power to add to the Commiss ion and even limited power to remove. On the assumption that a government does not, in a bill of this kind, seek to obtain powers that it does not intend to use, one may fairly ask - what' s it intended for ?

I think it is clear that on the one hand the government is seeking the power to add to the Commissio n' s member ship so that at any time it could, if it so desired, dilute the numerical strength of those who upheld the present system of appointments and promotion. Similarly, Mr. Speaker, it could add indefinitely persons prepared to see that the candidates sympathetic to the party in power were given preferment. ·I have to assume the members of the government -- well, Mr.

Speaker, if the Honourable Minister of Public Works thinks this is cynicism , let him amend the act so that this power is not given; let him justify why the government is taking this power. Mr. Speaker, I have to assume that the members of the government know what they are doing unless, Mr. Sp eaker, the Honourable Minister of Public Works is going to admit that the members of the government don't know what they're doing. MR . ENNS: They don't. They don't. MR.

SPIVAK: And I wonder whether the public of Manitoba realize that the government, by their action, is seeking to turn the clock back 50 years by undermining the independence of the Commission, the Commission that has really come to act as a buffer between the politicians and the non-partisan public servants. Mr. Speaker , I also find it very hard to believe that it is merely coincidental that this proposal is coupled with one to force retirement at the age of 65 on commissioners, which will require the retirement of two of the pre sent members of a three-man commission.

There are many government boards and commissions that have no such provision. Why is it so politically sensitive that a commission as this one be singled out? Mr. Speaker, in another provision of this bill, an unsuccessful candidate for the Civil Service may appeal1 not to the Commissio n or to some other independent body, but to the Minister who shall be empowered to appoint an investigator, who shall in turn report to the Minister whose decision shall be final. The question this poses is simple and basic. If a decision of the committee can by this process be overruled by a Minister , what purpose , Mr .

Speaker, is there in having a commission at all? The real power of the Commission shall have passed again to the Cabinet. The Commission will be all appearances and no substance. It will exist to provide an air of legitimacy to an increasingly ad hoc pro cess. Now, Mr. Speaker, the pres ent Minister of Labour has , ever since he took office, acted as though he was the Minister of the Civil Service. Mr. Speaker, in fact and in law he is simply the Minister through whom the Commission reports to this House.

But if we have in recent years faced the case of the Minister of Labour subordinating the Ci vil Service, we will now have the power extended to every other Minister of the Crown. And I wonder whether the honourable gentlemen opposite truly realize the implication of what they are doing. I wonder if they really want some future government not of their political faith to possess these powers.

To all of this may be added perhaps the most sinister provision of all, the provision which would confer on the Cabinet the power to organize or reorgani ze the Civil Service and to assign, reassign, classify or reclas sify the duties and positions of public ser vants. Mr. Speaker, this Act has a

section - and I'm not going to deal with the particular

section - which was placed in this Act -- one gets the impression that they would have liked the debate to have occurred on the question of whether the civil servants should or should not be allowed to enter public life, and the rights that they would have. This particular

section essentially, Mr. Speaker , gives the Cabinet the authority to do whatever it wants with respect to any or all of the civil servants. And, Mr. Speaker, we are not going to allow this

section to go through without a battle. Mr. Speaker , let us consider that for government to function, the executive must have extensive power to direct the Ci vil Service, and it now does have that power. But I ask the government, in what other jurisdiction is so sweeping and all-embracing a power con ferred on the Cabinet with respect to the Ci vil Service as the particular

section - without dealing with the

section that I' ve mentioned and the principles involved in that section? Now, Mr. Speaker , I'v e not looked at all the Ci vil Service acts in all the provinces but I have examined the majority of them, and I can say categorica lly that the provision that I am

March 4, 1974 BILL NO. 7 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) .... referring to would confer greater authority on the Cabinet of Manitoba than that enjoyed by the Cabinet in any other act in which I have examined. 1005 Now, Mr. Speaker, why is it introduced if the government does not intend to use it? And if it intends to use it, to what end? Is it to allow the government to make extensive changes in the Ci vil Service without further legislati'Ve sanction? Is it to allow the government de facto power to ingnore large sections of the Ci vil Service Act by Order- in-Council?

Is it to be able to allow the government to ignore its own guarantees to civil servants who involve themselves in politics by placing the authority of the Act subordinate to the authority of the Cabinet? Mr. Speaker, is it to allow the government to do by regulation whatever they want without ever having to come back to the Legislature ? And that, Mr. Speaker, is exactly what that

section suggests. Mr. Speaker, let us take the example of the civil ser vant who does run, who in fact is not elected, who comes back to his position to find that there' s a change of government and he ran for the other party. He is to have under this Act, as I understand it, the protection - and that' s what we would want - of not being prejudiced because he ran. But under the particular

section that I am referr ing to, the Cabinet can laterally transfer him, without any reference to Ci vil Service, by stra ight Orde r- in-Council and that authority will be given by this Act that we are asked and that you are asked to pass.

And I ask the members opposite to consider the possibility of a government elected that is not of their political faith, who would then have the power by Order-in -C ouncil without any particular reference to the Ci vil Service, to laterally transfer everybody out who they wanted to demote and to be in a position to interfere notwith standing the fact that there was a protection in the Act given to them that they have a ri ght to come back.

I don't think that was intended by the members opposite but I must tell you that I don't think any of you have ever read this bill, and you' ve relied on the competence of the Minister of Labour in pres enting this, and I must tell you you' ve relied incorrectly on this. I suggest you examine it because I don't think that you want the Cabinet, as this bill gives the power, to be able to do whatever it wants without any reference to anybody and not to be in a position to even abide by the Ci vil Service Act. Mr.

Speaker, when you take the total package, not just the clauses referring to the ability of civil ser vants to enter in the political field, when you take that total package the main underlying principle becomes much clearer. The government wishes to facilitate the politiciza tion of the Ci vil Service by involving the bervice in a positive way in the political proc ess, but lest its moves in that direction will prove insufficient, it seeks by controlling the Commission and by asserting its own supremacy over its own Act, to provide itself with a full armoury to complete the task.

Taken as a whole, it is most concerted frontal attack on the independence of the Ci vil Service and I suggest that it is a most concentrated frontal attack on the independ ence of the Ci vil Service of any juri sdiction in Ca nada. In part this is contained in an ... but largely specious argument about the political equality of civil ser vants; the balance is contained in some apparently innocuous but I suggest potentially enormous powers cmi ferred on the Cabinet. Mr. Speaker, this is wor se than patronage. It' s more than pork-barrelism.

This is a propo sal which opens the door to the wholesale sjlbversion of the political service in which large parts of it would be open to the adherence of the party in power and much of those who remain in too Ci vil Service through the process of intimidation. To be sure, Mr. Speaker, and to be fair, I'm really not certain whether the honourable members opposite are fully aware of the Pandor a' s Box they are opeing,. and I refer back to the Honourable Minister of Finance who in his remarks suggested--I think that this is what the principle of the bill is. I question, Mr.

Speaker, whether the members on the opposite or the backbenchers really have read the Act and understand what I have referred to as this P andora •sB ox. You know, they may believe that they are generally securing political rights for civil ser vants and no more. It may be that they have not contemplated the implications of three sections of the bill. If so, I earnestly- well if they're not connivers then I would think, if they're not connivers, Mr.

Speaker, then I would say to the Honourable Member for Radisson, if that's your intention,so far no one has said that that's your intention and it would be far more honest to stand up and speak and say what your intention is. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order . MR, SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, I would hope that the members opposite will heed the

1006 March 4, 1974 BILL NO 7 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) .... remarks and will express and show a willingness to amend the bill before the debate proceeds much further . You know, Mr . Speaker, I want the honourable members opposite to understand one thing. Because one of their Ministers, who hapoens to have the responsibility, brings in the bill it doesn't necessarily follow that he knows what he's talking about. It also doesn't necess arily follow that he' s done his homework. It also doesn't follow necessarily that he understands even the implications of the legislative wording that' s been put forward. And , Mr.

Speaker , I would suggest to the members opposite - and I'm going to give some examples - that it would be in their interest to examine the bill and to see whether some of the things that I'm suggesting are correct, because if they ar e, I'm prepared to indicate, Mr. Speaker , that if we see a willingness on the part of the government to provide the kind of amendments that will take away some of the problem areas that we've identified, then we may be in a position to be able to support the bill. I wonder if they under stand, re ally , Mr.

Speaker , and I'm not talking to the back benchers - the possible results of supporting the Commission, supporting the Commission by altering the approved procedures. I wonder if they rea lize that if the Act is passed as pro posed, that when we form a government we will be empowered , without reference to this House, first of all to basically throw out all the civil ser vants we want, to conduct a purge of the Ci vil Service if we want, and to be in a position to basically reassign, reclassify and rearrange. Now, Mr.

Speaker , I don't want to have that power; I don't want any government to have that power; and I don't think they want to have that power. But that's what you're providing in the Act.

You're providing in the Act for the ability of any government, when a change takes place, to be in a position to essentially clean house without any particular re ference to the Ci vil Service, to be able to reclassify, reassign, rearra nge and literally to be able to accomplish that which the Civil Service Act was supposed not to accomplish, the com plete ability of a government to be able to take care of their enemies if they so desired , and to be able to re ward their friends. Mr.

Speaker, I don't know whether the members opposite realize or know what the government is doing, but from what I'v e seen in the north and from what I know of things that are happening in the Ci vil Ser vice, I fear that the government t;l()eS know and has deliberately embarked upon a course which is sinister and shameful. Mr. Speaker , it is our responsibility on this side, if our analysis is rig ht, to do what we can to alert the public, and that is what we shall do . Now let us concede, Mr. Speaker , that we face two handicaps.

Firs t, because this is the first session after the election in which the public may not be concerned about what happens in this Chamber. Well, Mr. Speaker, we ar e prepared to use all the means available to us under the rules to either get a satisfactory accounting of this government' s intentions or to stick at this thing, Mr. Speaker, until the public through the media are made aware that something out of the ordinary - and I suggest it's out of the ordinary - is happening on Broadway. That is both our right and our responsibility as the Opposition in this Chamber. Let us concede, Mr.

Speaker , that many people are not much interested in the Ci vil Ser vice. Some tend to think of the service as the bureaucracy, inefficient, overpaid, and all the other cliches. But in a society like ours where the government is involved in so much, the professional competence and the political impartiality of the Ci vil Service are things which eventually affect everyone. In 1956 , Mr. Speaker, few people in this cou ntry cared much about a pipeline as such, but in time we all came to recognize it as telling a great deal about the use and abuse of power by the government.

People may be similarly unconcerned about the Ci vil Service but we believe that people can and will see the government's handling of this as a reflection of its use or abuse of power. With the exception I'v e noted, Mr. Speaker , with respect to the question of the candidacy and job security, I do not want this government or any government to have this power. I do not believe that government needs these powere and I do not believe that any government which I had the honour to lead would need these powers. Accordingly, Mr .

Speaker, we urge the government to indicate that it is going to be prepared to amend and to indicate that soon, so that we will be in a position to know what their objections are. Secondly, in lieu of that, we serve notice that we shall use every means open to us to mobilize public opinion to stay the government's hand.

March 4, 1974 1007 BILL NO. 7 (MR. SPIVAK cont'

d) Thirdly , Mr. Speaker, if the government, employing its major ity , impose what we consider an unnecessary and re actionary legislation, we serve notice that as a matter of high priority the next Prog ressive- Conservative Government commits itself now to amend and repeal these obnoxious amendments proposed in thi·s Act before us. Now, Mr. Speaker, if we're wrong and if we're be ing unfair in ascri bing motives, the government can set our apprehensions at rest. They can do that by withdrawing the obnoxious sections of the bill.

This will be the test of their good faith for if they do not propose to use these powers there hardly can be any argument that they need them. And I can apply to them a further test of their good will and good intentions, for I submit to them the following propo s ition: I submit that the withdrawal of the sections that I have referred to of the bill will excite no agitation among the public at large. The poor and disadvantaged will not feel a whit more poor and disadvantaged if the bill be amended.

You will not offend the women in the Civil Ser vice by amending the pr esent bill because you have not taken any of the recommendations of your own task force in brin ging in a Civil Service Act and one wonders how a government who is supposedly committed to equality, which is the basis of the political references, would not have at least taken its recommendations from its own task force and brought those amendments forward. You will get no protest, Mr . Speaker, if the sections I have referred to are withdrawn, from the old age pensioners, from those concerned with day care facilities, from the conservationists.

You will not face cr iticism of the academic community or from the labour movement for this measure does not constitute a measure that will lift the yoke of the oppressed, it does not seek to ri ght a wrong or advance a cause. You will excite, Mr. Speaker, no agitation or opposition if you amend this bill because there's no agitation or anxiety to see it passed. But let us hesitate, Mr. Speaker.

Perhaps there is one group that would be angered by the amendment to this bill that we' ve proposed; perhaps certain elements with the New Democratic Party who raised their voices in convention last December , perhaps they would be angered and upset for this bill surely opens the door to realiz ing their aims. If so, Mr. Speaker, this is a party measure if ever there was one, introduced by a party to serve a party at great public cost. Now, Mr.

Speaker , I invite the government to show that it is big enough to admit the possible err or , wide enough in vision to concede that this bill may go further than they in tended. The alternative will be for protracted debate in this House, and should the govern ment insist, the opening of a Pandor a' s Box, Mr. Sfeaker , in the public service. Now, Mr. Speaker, there may be on the part of the government an attempt to try and explain the sections away in the hope that the explanation will be satisfactory, but I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that I doubt very much whether the government has done its homework as in other bills. I doubt very much if they understand the impliDations of giving the Cabinet the kind of responsibility that they're suggesting. I doubt if they understand that by allowing the appeal to a Minister under the particular

section and wiping the Commission out in this particular area , that by doing this they are allowing the Ministerial discretion which if exercised by a government not sympathetic to those who have campaigned, if they are given this ri ght under the Act and who have allowed their names to run as 'candidates or to be nominated as candidates, they are going to give that authority to a Cabinet and to a Minister to essentially be in a position to do whatever they want. Mr. Speaker, I indicated there are several principles involved in this bill. The government has only talked about one.

They have blended everything in to the argument about whether or not a civil ser vant should be allowed to be able to run for off ice. The Minister of Finance indicated that if there was some problems with respect to the rai sing of money, he would consider possibly accepting some amendments on that. I think I'm ri ght in this respect, I think those were generally his intentions, and I find this startling, Mr . Speaker, because he didn't know of the full implications, and I'm not suggesting that every Cabinet Minister should know but I have a feeling, Mr.

Speaker, that in this sensitive area where I think there has been concern expres sed, and the government may say rightly or wrongly on our part about the politicization of the Civil Service that they should not have put them selves in the position of providing

an Act which I believe can be interpreted in the way it was suggested by, I believe, the Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie - I'm not sure if it

1008 March 4, 1974 BILL NO. 7 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) .. .. was Portage la Prairie or Fort Garry, I'm sorry, it was the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Pa rty I believe who suggested it - and with the re sponse to that, I don't believe , Mr. Speaker , that in this sensitive area the government should have been introducing this bill without the Ca binet and the members of their ca ucus understanding its implications. Now, Mr. Speaker , so it will be clear from our point of view , we do not object to a political civil servant being given the right to run for political office. And, Mr.

Speaker , we would suggest that the way in which that should be handled would be to follow the Ontario Act and we think that the Ontario Act is good and it provides initiative, it provides initiatives, Mr. Speaker , that the present government has not provided , taking care of the person who in fact has run, has been elected, and is defeated in a period of time, I believe five years in the case of On tario , and seeks to be able to come back to the Ci vil Service. That is No. 1, Mr. Speaker. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker , we do not believe that the civil servants should be allowed to work within the political process because of what we believe will be a comprising of their position, and because of the sensitive area that so many of them are involved. And we believe , Mr . Speaker , we believe, Mr. Speaker , that these two principles can be separated and that we are in a position to debate both, and agree on the first, and disagree on the second. And we would hope that the government would con sider the second, and if they will not they will put us in the position, Mr. Speaker, of not being able to support this bill.

And further, Mr. Speaker , we would want an undertaking and an indication by the govern ment before we are asked to support the bill that the Cabinet will not be given the authority that it's been given , that the Mini ster will not be given the authority that it's been given, and that the Ci vil Service Commission will not be emasculated by a government who may not like what the Civil Service is doing. Now, Mr. Speaker, over a period of time we are going to be able to cite

chapter and verse where particular sections have been used by the government to be able to place in posi tions people whom may want, who could not come up through the regular Civil Service channels. And, Mr. Speaker , that can be documented, and the members opposite know that, and we can and we will, and in saying that, Mr. Speaker , we realize that in doing this there is a power within the technical offices

section of the Civil Service Act that can be used and in our belief has been abused by the government. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, having said that, we await some response from the government which will indica te , Mr. Speaker, that they are prepared to consider , or recon sider that, and until, Mr.

Speaker , we have that position it will be impossible for us, even though we agree in the first principle, to be in a po sition to support the bill until we have the answers, and not from the, you know , remarks from his seat by the Mini ster but rather from maybe some serious consultation by the Cabinet with the Premier , who after having examined it will understand the full implications of what is happening and will be in a position to at least in a reasonable way present the position of the government and the changes that should take place so that in effect the fear s that I have raised and that many of us feel will be at least allayed by the fact that the government will not act.

Mr. Speaker, this is the role of the Opposition as we see it and we have now presented our case and the ball is in the government's court.

March 4, 1974 1009 BILL 7 MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Health. MR. MILLE R: Mr. Speaker, I would like to get clarification. Is this bill standing in the name of the Me mber for Gladstone? MR. SPE AKER: Yes it is. MR. MIL LER : In that case, may I speak ?-- (Interjection)--Thank you. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I've listened with a great deal of interest to the Leader of the Offi cial Opposition and what I am pleased about is the fact that we all now seem to be heading in the same direction, and that to me is important, because both the Li beral Party and now the Conservative Party have indicated that they too recognize that for too long civil servants have been second-class citizens, and that for too long in this province people have been prevented from participating as citizens should in the political processes of this province. Some of the things that the leader has said I question.

I think he's reading into it more than what is there; I'm sure he knows that today and last year, and two years ago, and five years ago, the same raffle that he referred to could have been sol d by any civil servant in Manitoba at any time except after the writs have been is sued in an election, because an election has been call ed. But OLherwise there was no inhibition whatsoe ver and the

section he's dealing with is really a

part in the exis ting act. So there's no change there. So when he brings that up as so mething that this government is doing and I want to remind him this is a fact, these things could take place and have taken place. And really what are we talking about? You know to follow his reasoning we're going to politi cize everybody in the Civil Service. The reality is this, and he's a practical man and he should understand it, the reality is that the vast majority of civil se rvants will probably want no part of anything.

They're pr epared to continue doing their work, as profes sionally, as com petently as they can without any involvement. And so be it. That's the way they want it to be and that's the way it shall be. But there is always a percentage in our socie ty who feel that they do want to become politically active, and they have been inhibited up to now because they could not let their names stand, because if they let their names stand they had to resign from the Civil Service, they had to remove themselves from the Civil Service.

This is a barrier that prevented people from moving and so there will probably be the vast majority, for various reasons and a very, in most cases probably, a very selfish reason which is - I'm not critical of it - but simply the fact that a lot of people will not want to be identified with any party simply because they don't want to be in the position where they may have to explain why they partici pated on behalf of any particular party, whether during election , or not during election, at any time, because there may be changes in government, because their immediate superior may feel differently than they do, and so by and large there isn't going to be any great dramatic effect.

All that will happen, as I say, is that certain people who have wanted to become involved, and have been involved actually over the decade, but have done it very quietly perhaps , but they've been involved, but now will be able to stand for office and will not be inhibited because an election was called . The magic of calling an election, the iss uing of a writ, and suddenly the activity in which you've been involved, and suddenly the interest you've shown, and suddenly the meetings you've attended, and suddenly all the things you've done, including selling raffles, must cease . Why? The is suance of a writ.

That was the magic. That to me is nonsensi cal. That is really nonsensical because you're telling a person you may do as you wish but turn that switch off because the writs have been iss ued, and that is the phoniness of our posit ion. And I think that is the phoniness that I hope the Members of the Conse rvative Party, the Member of the Liberal Party, want to join with us in correcting, an injustice; and I think it's an anomaly which really shouldn't exist at this point in time. And there are thousands of people affected generally by the inhibition which exists in our act today. I think it's wrong.

If I am a c ivil se rvant and if I want to support a candidate, I want to do it openly, I don't want to have to hide, and I'll take my chances. That's why I say that the majority probably will not, but if I wish to do so I don't want to be concerned. You know at the municipal level there is no inhibition. If a perso n working for a municip ality wishes to participate in an election, he's free to do so. -- (Interjection)-- He does it, peri od. And you know nothing has happened.

No great tragedies, no great terrible things have happened. -- (Interjection)- -Very few do it because they don't want to get involved, that's right. The Member for St. Boniface is quite right. The fact is they won't and there is nothing forcing any body. Some are going to, some aren't . What percentage of the total population is involved in

1010 March 4, 1974 BILL 7 (MR. MILLER cont'd) ..... election, Mr. Speaker? We've all run for office, each and every one of us here, and if we added up all the workers we all had together, what percentage would it be of the total of Manitoba ? Now let's be realistic. So let's not, you know, exaggerate it; let's not make monstrous charges and see nefarious schemes where in fact there aren't any.

I recall when the Minister of Labour introduced this bill, he did sa y, that this bill was being introduced because he hoped the principle of participation in the public life of the pro vince is now acc eptable finally in 1974 by all parties, and that the bill could be approved in principle, and that in law amendments he would entertain amendments because he recognized that there may be differences, different views, and that this government has indicated, both through the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Finance the other day, that certainly a bill of this kind is not just being put on the statutes because a particular party wants it, but because all parties recognize that what has gone on in the past cannot go on.

The people have a right to participate in public life, that this Act, if passed, will apply to this government and future governments, and it may not be the Leader of the Official Opposition will ever lead that govern ment, but it will apply to other governments, this I can assure him. And therefore it has to get House concurrence and I hope that tha t's the way it would be. You know, he brings up an interesting red herring - and I call it that - the relationship of civil servants, he says, with the ... of the welfare recipients and with suppliers to govern ment.

Now is he that naive, and isn't he aware that when it comes to suppliers, and when it comes to people who do business with government, that they do support the government in office, and he knows it. -- (lnterjection)--After I'm through. And he knows it, and if they sup port the government in office because they want to support them for wha tever their reasons, the y're doing it with this Act and without this Act; they're doing it maybe because they think they 're going to get some favorable consideration, and they may not get it.

But it has nothing to do, absolutely nothing to do wh ether or not a member of the Civil Service is active in a pol itical party, absolutely not. Beca us e if a business wants to support a party in office during an election, they will do so - as a matter of fact they 'll support all three; the y'll hedge their bet. They've done that before in every jurisdiction. So the suggestion that somehow a civil servant who publicly admits to being a member of the Conservative Party, or the Liberal Party, or the New Democratic Party, that there is something evil in that, it's absolute nonsense.

It has no validity because, in fact, as I sa y these things are known today, anyway they're done today, and it only is enforced during the period, that very three week period, the very short period when the writs are issued. The Leader of the Official Opposition sa ys this 1 egislation does not regress a wrong - I think that was the point he made. I think it does regress a wrong. It regresses a wrong that 's been on our statutes too long and, you know, the interesting thing is he wants to change it.

He wants to make it possible for people to run for office, for people to serve, and if they are not succes sful in running for office he wants to make sure that they can get back into their jobs, that they'd be protected, that they either go into that particular job or into an equivalent job, beca us e, if I heard him correctly, he does want to protect the individual wh o's running for office. So if he's wanting to protect them I assume he also wants them to have the right to run for office. He also questioned whether an employee can speak frankly. You know, Mr.

Speaker, I've been in this government now for four and a half years and I can tell the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that the department that I have been involved in, I don't know what the politics of the majority of them are; in some cases I have a hu nch what they were and what they still may be, but I know of no employee who has been inhibited from talking to me for that reason, who wasn't quite frank and honest in his appraisal of what I was suggesting; but finally, when a policy was set, th ose same employees, whether they were supporters of the Conservatives, of the Liberals, the New Democrats, acce pted the policies laid down, and beca use the y're pro fessionals they enacted those policies; they performed as professiona ls; and if they had differ ences of opinion it was professional opinion, it was their point of view as to the kind of policy.

At no time - and I say this unequivocally, at no time was any member of my staff, or any staffs that I am aware of, made to feel that because perhaps they may have shared a different political point of view, that somehow their judgments or their opinions didn't have value. It would be foolish for the Leader of the Official Opposition to suggest th is, because in fact people who have given their many years in the publi c service are respected for their knowledge, for their

March 4, 1974 1011 BILL 7 (MR. MILLER cont'd) ..... capacity, for their exper tise, and any good governme nt and any Minister who ignores this would be losing the advantage of that kind of experi ence. In fact I know that my colleagues , as I, do indeed not only listen but we often heed the advice by ... people who I know are not supporters of the government, of this government, and yet I know have given me that advice because they feel in all sincerity that's the best advice - and some times it is the best advice and we follow it as often as not. So, Mr.

Speaker, I feel that if the Leader of the Official Opposition is saying to us today that his Party is pr epared to approve the principle of the bill, to make it possible for people in the service of the Provincial Government to participate in--(lnterjection)--1 wonder if the Member for Lakeside could share with me his comment because Pm not sure I heard it. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. MI LLER: Oh I see. Well, okay. Thank you. Now that I've heard the comment it really doesn't matter, you know, it's not that much value. I thought he had something to say. --(lnterjection)--Okay. MR. SPEAKER: Order. MR.

MILLER: But, Mr.

Speaker, if the Leader of the Official Opposition was talking for his Pa rty and was now indicating, despite a lot of comments that were made by the other side, if he is now saying clearly that, yes, the Conservative Pa rty recognizes that there should be legislation to make available to the civil se rvants the possibility, if they so desire, on an indi vidual basis participation of the political ... of this province, if that's what he ' s saying, that' s what we are saying, and it's come a long way indeed; and I' m glad to hear it; I'm glad to hear it beca use in that case I don't see why this bill needs much more debating at this point in time.

I think it should go to Law Amendments ; I think at that point any differences of

interpretation can be looked at, whether the fears raised or the fears expressed by the Leader of the Official Opposition are indeed valid--and maybe, maybe some of them are. On the other hand some of them may be within existing legislation, you know, and he may not even be aware of that - which is possible. And I'm not critical of him; believe me, I'm not being critical of him when I say that, because I don't expect every member to know all the det ails and all the ramifications and implications of every piece of legislation. That's what Law Amendments is all about.

That's when it comes up; that's when it's clarified; that's when questions can be asked in the less for mal atmosphere than exists in the House, Mr. Speaker, where we cannot refer to clauses, and we cannot refer to sub-clauses, we can only talk in broad generalities. If I were to start refer ring to a certain clause that I' m dying to refer to, you'd rule me out of order, and I don't want that so therefo re I won't refer to it.

But that's the inhibition at this level, at this point in de bate, to deal with this matter; and so all we can talk about is the sweeping generalities and the principles of the bill itself. And so, Mr. Speaker, I take the speech made by the Leader of the Opposition as a green light to go ahead with

an act to amend the legislation which until now has been an inhibition to civil servants to pa rticipate fully within the public life of this province, and therefore I wel come his comments as we did that of the Liberals, and I also welcome the support which he also indicated. He may have some differences, he may feel that we haven 't gone far enough, for instance he suggests that we should not only allow someone to run for office but, having run for office and having succee ded, we should then assure his job for the next five years ; which is quite a, you know, it's quite a step forward.

That' s true, we haven't gone that far, and it's really asking a lot, beca use you have to recognize that in that five-year period a posi tion just doesn't hang empty. Things occur; other appointments have to be made; and it's really asking an awful lot. Somebody has to move over when this man comes back after five years . I' m thinking of the Member for - the former Member for St. Vital - I think it was Jack Hardy, who did run for office, I think he was an employee of the Provincial Government. He had no choice, he had to resign from his position.

He couldn't help it; had no se curity of tenure whatsoever, had--you know, he was really in an impossible position, and the answer was, of course , he finally, he-- (Interjection)--Which? No, no. That's the point, that he could not, he had no assurance either that his job would be there, and so he was really in the posi tion where ever ything stopped dead for him and he had to eventually, in the light of his family needs , he had to resign and I believe he went to New Westminster or Va ncouver, I forget where, but somewhere on the west coast.

1012 March 4 , 1974 BILL 7 (MR. MILLER cont'

d) Now it's true that our legislation therefore does not give that kind of guarantee after four or five years, but at the same time if that is what the Opposition wants, well we'll look at it, but there are many implications in that kind of proposal too and it's really far more reaching than what we have suggested.

And so we'll certainly look at it, we'll look at it in committee wh en it goes to committee, but I would hope that at this point in time that this matter can now be proceeded with because I really have seen nothing or heard nothing in the comments today up .to now which would indicate that there 's a basic idealistic, philosophical difference in our approach. If we all agree, well, let's get the bill into committee and let's move on with the job. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: I believe the Minister indicated he would accept a question.

I wonder if he could indicate whether at present suppliers of government services are being solicited for funds for the government's political party by the civil servants who award the government con tracts. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, if that is the case then I' m not aware of it, but I'll tell you this, if that is the case the re's nothing in the present act , existing act, to inhibit that; not this year, not in 1968, '67, '66, '65, at any time. If it's going on now, it could easily have gone on th en. Tha t's all I want to say to the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, whether the Minister could undertake to discuss this bill with his Ca binet so the y'll understand the full meaning of what they 're doing. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Leader of the Opposition could look at the existing legislation so that what I've just said is correct, that in fact that kind of activity, not during the election period but today--right now ther e's no election, the re's no election in the offing, whether ten years ago a person could not have done exactly what the Leader of the Opposition just asked me. MR .

SPEAKER: The question will remain in the name of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. Bill No. 15. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. (Stand) Bill No. 16. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. (Stand) Bill No. 17, also Birtle-Russell. (Stand) Bill No. 18, again. Bill No. 20. The Honourable Member for Virden. (St and) The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Have we run through all the bills, Mr. Speaker? MR . SPEAKER: Except Bill No. 9, unless the Minister of Agriculture wishes to go on that. MR . GREEN: I'll move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and ca rried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Cha ir. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CH AIRMAN: Resolution 7 (a) . The Honourable Member for Pemhina. The honour able member has 26 minutes . MR. HENDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chai rman.

I believe when I left off my remarks I had been criticizing the Minister of Agriculture for going around to all the meetings in the pro vince trying to brainwash the people into his way of thinking, but he was very critical if any members on this side that attended any political meetings, even if they just talked to people in the hall, you know. Just what does that mean ? I don't see anything wrong with MLAs going to meetings that concern different things in their constituency. What is really wrong with the Member from Morris or from Lakeside attending any of these meetings ?

Is he afraid of the democratic process? And yet when he has the platform, even if it isn't at a meeting like that, he chooses to try to brainwash the people into hi s way of thinking. Now I believe that the concept of producer marketing boards is here whether we like it or no t, but we like to call them produc er marketing boards, and we believe that the people should be duly elected and that they should know what 's going on, and that they shouldn 't be govern ment appointed people tha t's really controlling these boards. And this is what seems to be going

March 4, 1974 1013 SUPPLY - AGRICU LTURE (MR. HENDERSON cont'd ) ..... on in the Hog Producers Marketing Board and this is what seems to be getting under people's skin, and especially the fact of having this super board im posed over top of them which can veto anything they done and then having to swear themselves to secrecy.

Now, there's another thing tha t's bothered me considerable and it hasn't been spoke of yet, but it's the government and its land lease policy, and I know that the Minister of Agriculture has criticized people on our side for sta ting some of our views and the way it appeared that the government was going to take over this land and not sell it back to the people. And I have here a copy from Hansard, it's on April 10, 1973, and at that time we were talking about the Farm Credit Corporation and its new policies, and we sta rted to question the Minister.

He was ques tioned at length and he was kind of beating around the bush about it a lot and we weren't getting too straight answers, there had been questions asked by the Member from Arthur, and he re's a part right here, and I was questioning him myself on this particular thing, and I

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-38
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 38.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	14ba0f85063aa5ea7f1b1a9820fc1faad65076d3

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