Volume XL Friday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas ---- - Number 34 16 May 1986

The House met at 10:00 a.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to inform this hon. House that after a comprehensive review of the proposed federal excise tax on hunting and fishing equipment, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is opposed to its implementation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MATTHEWS: I have advised my colleague in the Federal Cabinet, the hon.

Tom McMillan, to this effect, Mr. Speaker. The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador clearly supports the goals and objectives of wildlife enhancement and management, which has been demonstrated by having one of the best wildlife management programmes in Canada. Having studied the federal proposal, however, we have decided that we cannot support any plan that will see increased taxes for Ll981 May 16, 1986 Vol XL Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, particularly "taxes that would effect our traditional pastime, that of enjoying the great outdoors. Newfoundlanders already face the highest taxes in Canada.

Increased taxes on goods used in pursuing outdoor activities will_ only serve to limit the access to the one pastime residents of our Province, either high income earners or low, whether urban dwellers or rural, can all now enjoy without reservation. Moreover, enjoyment of the outdoors in Newfoundland is an essential aspect of our way of life. This government's intention, Mr. Speaker, is to maintain and enhance that way of life, not to inhibit or diminish it in any way.

The fact that Labradorians in particular pursue hunting and fishing for subsistence, is another major reason this government is taking a stand against this new tax. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. KR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank God for the Liberal opposition here in the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PATTERSON: No. 34 R1981

Who put the tax on the chocolate bars? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. K. AYLWARD: Today is today and yesterday was yesterday. Kr. Speaker. First off, I want to congratulate the Liberal Opposition for its clear, concise, effective stand taken here in the House of Assembly and put forth immediately to the federal government for all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. I think it was because of this very effective performance that the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews), and the administration, have now decided that this tax is injurious to the outdoorsman of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I want to know how the minister is going to make his representation to the han. minister in Ottawa. MR. MATTHEWS: I have already made it. MR. K. AYLWARD: We would like to know how he has made it? How forcefully is he going to make it, since it took him a couple of weeks to get around to making his statement on it? When he decides how he is going to make his representation, if it is just going to be one letter and that is it, will he let us know, please? Because this tax may still go through, despite his gallant efforts not to support a tax, which he should have done two weeks ago? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: L1982 May 16, 1986 Vol XL The han. Minister Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: of Forest Mr. Speaker, I just want to give a verbal update on the forest fire situation because of the interest that members have, obviously. First of all, I want to indicate that there are, at some stage or another, seventeen forest fires of some sort or another underway in the Province. We are now using. in ground crews. about 300 people to fight fires in different places. There are ten helicopters in service and in use, and there are six water bombers also in use.

We made an enquiry as to the availability of aerial fire fighting equipment, such as a water bomber from other provinces, but I am sure everybody is aware that the situation in all Eastern Canada is pretty much the same; New Brunswick is in a serious situation and Quebec has fifty forest fires underway. In fact, the Forestry Center indicated to us that they were about to call us to see if we had a water bomber we could lend New Brunswick. So the situation, in that sense, is still being assessed. We do not know what is available from Ontario or some other provinces, if we need it.

I do want to say that with respect to the fires in the Western part of the Province, they are all now under control and most of them are being cleaned up, or mopped up as we say. Most of the fires in the Eastern part of the Province are contained or out. The Goose Bay fire is still fairly large and quite serious, but we are expecting that it may, in fact, burn itself out. The most serious situations now exist in the Central part of the Province where No. 34 R1982

the Red Cliff fire, or Grand Falls - Windsor fire is contained but not under control, which means that with serious winds or anything like that it could flare up again; a fire flared up yesterday evening on the Baie Verte Peninsula which is quite large, three kilometers by eight and a half kilometers, a very large fire, , and on the Bay d'Espoir road there is a fire burning that is about twelve kilometers by three kilometers. So those are still quite serious.

I just want to indicate to members of the House that I will be going out later on this afternoon to that Central region to have an aerial view of what is transpiring and to meet with forestry officials who are actually in the field. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, just a short response to that. I want to thank the minister for updating us on this very crucial situation.

Also, while we are aware of the situation in the Atlantic provinces and the strain on resources available, maybe he would give some consideration, if things get any worse. or even at the present time, to maybe checking with the armed forces to find out if they have anything available to help us in the fighting of these forest fires. Would he would give that some consideration? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. RUSSELL: Ll983 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RUSSELL: Kr.

Speaker. as you are probably aware, it is the policy of government to try to promote cable television services to all parts of this Province. It is in this connection that I am very pleased today with the recent announcement made by the Chairman of the Canadian Radio, Television and Telecommunications Commission when he annnounced the licensing of 151 Newfoundland communi ties to Nl Cable T.V. Limited. Nl Cable T.V. is a joint venture of Eastern Cable Limited, a prominent Newfoundland small community cable system operator. and Canadian Satellite Communications Incorporated of Toronto, otherwise known as CanCom.

This ,project, to deliver cable television service to over 21,000 subscribers in ' 151 communities, is the largest of its kind in Canada. The project will create approximately seventy-five jobs during the one year construction period and twenty permanent jobs when completed. The cable service will include a · mixture of local broadcast and satellite television signals. In addition to the local CBC and CTV stations, service will offer: two Canadian independent stations CHCH and !TV; the CanCom U.S.

Network Services of ABC, NBC, CBS and PBS; and ASN - the Atlantic Satellite Network, TSN - the sports network and MuchMusic. No. 34 Rl983

Seven of the eleven services to be offered will be Canadian and of those, .three will be local to the Atlantic'Region. The monthly fee for this service will be $20.95. Communities serviced by Nl cable T.V. Ltd. will be offered free installation and the first month of service free. Construction of the first system · will begin within the month with CanCom's Satellite Turnkey Services Division as prime contractor. Service to all 151 communities will be completed by year-end. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RUSSELL: I realize, Kr. Speaker, this is, in essence, the press release made by N1 T.V.

What they did not have in the papers, as I understand it, was a list of these 151 communities, and I am tabling with this press release, or this statement, a list of these communi ties, as well. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I thank the minister for having supplied us with a copy of his release. As the minister pointed out, we could have gotten it all from the paper yesterday, except for the list of the 151 communities. It is interesting to Ll984 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL see these.

I wonder if the minister is aware that ~he tendency is for cable companies to in a way, 'I suppose, it is natural for them - go to the lucrative communities first, the larger communities, and install in those areas and some of the smaller rural communities have to wait for a fairly long period of time in order to see this service provided? I wonder if the minister has any information as to the

schedule of installation that will be followed with respect to these 151 communities? It should also be noted, I guess, that as has been reported recently, the cable industry is not all wine and roses. They are suffering from the competition of the video cassette recorder and the increasing tendency of the domestic household in this Province, as. well as elsewhere, to go out and rent video cassettes and bring them home and provide their own entertainment in that fashion. There is also competition from the ever-increasing private dishes which are declining in price and which are becoming more and more popular.

They are somewhat difficult, I understand, to keep on station, the less expensive ones, particularly in our climatic conditions. The minister, I think, should keep involved with the financial status of the cable industry generally in this Province and ensure that there is a reasonable approach taken with respect to the amount to be spent on infrastructure, and that those investing in cable companies should be aware of the fact that current regulations do permit this competition from the private disc. No. 34 Rl984

I know there is a tendency now for more and more of the satellite transmissions to be coded, but the codes only subject the ever-increasing human ingenuity to greater challenge. I am sure the minister is aware of some clever individual having found a way of transmitting his or her own message across all of North America by beaming up a message to NBC or one of the North American wide television programmes being carried, interjecting his own message into that satellite communication. So I think we are going to see the increasing tendency of private dishes.

I think we have to acknowledge that when something is there that the public feel they can have access to, one way or the other they are going to figure out a way of accessing it, and that is not a bad thing. AN HON. KEMBER: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier is aware that the chief negotiator for the United States Government on free trade has stated that such an agreement does not stand a ghost of a chance of being approved by the u.s.

Congress unless it contains significant concessions from the provinces? I wonder if the Premier is in a position to tell us just what are these concessions Ll985 May 16, 1986 Vol XL from the Provinces which the U.S. ~egotiator is referring to? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the negotiations have not even started yet. I mean, what a foolish question! What a foolish question. The negotiations have not even begun and there are going to be exploratory talks to establish can agenda and so on on the 21st and then we will go on from there in the Fall.

So obviously, until we get into the negotiations, it is not at all clear, and obviously, the U.S. negotiator is, as the Minister of Intergove .rnmental Affairs (Mr. Ottenheimer) just said, posturing, and taking a strong stand before they actiually begin negotiations, which is normal in such matters. So it is obviously too early to tell just what direction the negotiations will take. They are going to be complex and I imagine they are going to take a year or more. I think . the fast track that we are on now means January, 1988 .

You know, we have the rest of this year and next year to sit down with the Americans, so it will be some time, I am sure, before it is known just exactly what the saw-off might be or whether there is going to be a saw-off . Perhaps there will be no deal. It depends on where the Americans are coming from, what they want to keep on the table and what they want to take off the table. But obviously, at this point in time, before the negotiations actually begin, that question cannot be answered. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. No. 34 Rl985

MR. SPE.Al<ER: The hon. the Leader of · the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, there are preliminary discussions that have been carried out between the Province and the Government of Canada, the great concerns whether or not social such as unemployment Medicare and so forth, the table, social particularly. and one of has been programmes, insurance, will be on insurance I would like to ask the Premier is he aware that while the U.S. Ambassador to Canada is stating that such social programmes will not be on the table, Mr.

Peter Murphy, the chief u.s. negotiator, is in fact stating that there is an agreement between the President and Prime Minister Mulroney that everything will be on the table, including social programmes such as unemployment insurance. Now, apparently, the Prime Minister is not as much in the dark as the Premier is as to what is going to take place. I would like to ask the Premier what discussions have there been between the Province and the Government of Canada? Is the Premier prepared to have the enlightened social programmes of this country sacrificed on the altar of free trade? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. what the US negotiator says the US negotiator can say. What is more important is what the Canadian negotiator, Mr. Reisman. has said, which is that the social programmes are not up for grabs or up for Ll986 May 16. 1986 Vol XL negotiation. From our particular point of view. in all of the discussions we have had we know that that is the case from the Canadian side. As far as the Government of Newfoundland is concerned, we have made it clear right from the start.

Obviously, it goes without saying that we could not support a position which saw t~e social programmes that are now available in Canada being part of the chips in the bargaining for some kind of a freer trade arrangement with the United States. That goes without saying. I think in all of the meetings the provinces have had with the federal government there has not been any question about that at all. But, obviously, there are going to be statements made by Americans and other people on it, but what the Americans say they are free to say.

What we are concerned about is what the Canadian negotiator is saying and what the Canadian position is, and these social programmes will not be a part of any bargaining. MR. W •. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Twillingate. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. a final supplementary. MR. W. CARTER: I yield, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. TOBIN: The Speaker recognized the member for Twillingate. MR. BARRY: I would be more concerned, Mr. No. 34 R1986

Speaker, if I were the Premier about the position taken by the Prime Minister of this country. • We saw what happened when he took a position on the Petro-Canada back-ins. Now, I would like to ask the Premier is he aware that the chief American negotiator is coming to Canftda to meet with Mr. Reisman, and that he expects to be informed whether or not there are significant concessions from the provinces? And will the Premier indicate whether the Government of Canada and Mr. Reisman have the provinces to indicate they are prepared to significant concessions in under their jurisdiction? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECI<FORD: asked that make areas Mr. Speaker, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition is trying to create something that is not there, which is par for the course, and he just brings up Mr. Murphy' s name. The Leader of the Opposition will not say what Mr. Reisman said about social programmes·, that they are not negotiable. Are we Americans or are we Canadians? I get the distinct impression from the Leader of the Opposition that we are a part of the United States. Mr.

Reisman is the chief negotiator for Canada and he has said that social programmes are not going to be a part of the negotiations. So Mr. Murphy can say what he likes about it, Mr. Speaker. That is number one, Mr. Speaker. Number two, I am not negotiating with the Leader of the Opposition. This is a full Canadian - MR. BARRY: Ll987 May 16, 1986 Vol XL You are negotiating for this Premier. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr. Speaker, I was silent when the Leader of the Opposition asked the question and yet he will not be silent when I am trying to answer it. MR.

BARRY: Our negotiations are under your direction. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: Kr. Speaker, two wrongs to not make a right. Let the Leader of the Opposition be a leader. MR. BARRY: Wel~. why do you not lead and control your lackeys over there PREMIER PECKFORD: Do not be silly, boy! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. BARRY: - instead of having them shout us down? PREMIER PECKFORD: Baby. Baby. Get out of Grade VIII, boy, and Junior Red Cross, or get out of the University and act like a mature leader. Get out of the University and stop debating. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. BARRY: They would not have you in the Junior Red Cross. No. 34 Rl987

PREMIER PECKFORD: If the Leader of the Opposition would just get out of the ivory tower of his junior Red Cross and his university. debating and become a part of . Newfoundland • s society and stop talking about the United States and · talk about Canada, we might get somewhere in this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR~ W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout). It concerns the closing of Canadian ports to the Portuguese fishing interests. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, at the beginning that we support any sanctions against any country that violates fishing rights, but we want effective measures implemented, Mr. Speaker. We are not convinced that closing the ports is the most effective method that can be employed. Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell the House has the minister suggested to his federal counterpart that other and maybe more effective sanctions be imposed against Portugal for its actions with respect to overfishing? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, the bon. gentlemen will know, and the House will know, that one of the issues mandated by First Ministers coming L1988 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL · out of the Halifax conference to their provincial ministers was to have a serious look at and make a report to the First Ministers on by June was resource management and foreign overfishing. That particular segment of our business took place here in st. John • s in January just past and there was a comprehensive .review undertaken by the ministers on foreign activity inside the 200 mile zone and foreign activity outside the 200 mile zone. I Mr.

Speaker, since Portugal joined the EEC it has become abundantly clear by action that the Portuguese are not prepared to live up to the conservation measures imposed in area 3L and others by NAFO, of which they are a member as a member of the EEC.

And Canada, in conjunction with the NAFO countries, have indicated that we are prepared to be very tough with foreign countries that are prepared to rape the resource just outside of the 200 and, as part of our toughness in that regard, we are not prepared to offer services to any of those countries in Canadian ports, we are not prepared to give them allocations within our 200 mile zone and, Mr. Speaker, this Province fought for that and this Province fully supports the position that the federal government takes in tha~ regard. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: No. 34 Rl988

Mr. Speaker, we too believe we must be tough with Portugal and other countries, but obviously when Portugal can use other ports, such as st. Pierre and the Azores, then we ha.ve some doubts as to the effectiveness. We want more effective measures implemented. Kr. Speaker, my question to the minister is this, Cana~a is a major importer from Portugal. In fact, last year, I think it was, we imported to this country just short of $90 million from Portugal. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would the bon. member please pose his question? MR. W. CARTER: Would the minister not agree, Kr.

Speaker, that maybe he should suggest to his federal counterpart other and more effective economic sanctions? There are things that we are importing from that country and we believe it would probably have a more effective impact if we were to cease such importations. For example, Canada is a major importer of wine from Portugal. Why not put a sanction on the imported wine, Mr. Speaker? Has he suggested any such measures? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, first of all let me say that I think for the first time, unlike the policy that existed a few years ago in fisheries matters in this country, we have de-linked access to our resources for access to markets. That was a battle that we had fought very, very long and hard achieve in this country over the last year or so. No more are we Ll989 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL going to allocate fish to foreign countries on a promise that we can have access to their markets. So we wanted that de-linked and we have been successful in getting that de-linked.

We will fight the fisheries matters as fisheries matters and not link them up with shoes or boots or wine or things that the Liberals used to do when they made those long~term agreements and so on with the EEC. We· are not going to go that way, Mr. Speaker. The other thing I would say to the bon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, is that it is not correct to say that the Portuguese, having been denied port privileges in Canadian ports, can get the same and as good 'and as competitive an access to ports in St. Pierre or the Azores. They will suffer, Mr.

Speaker, and it will hopefully bring home to them that they have to be good international citizens if they want to share in the benefits of the resources that are off Canada and off Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. W .. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. Would the minister not agree, Mr. Speaker, that if the sanctions that are presently being imposed are not going to be effective for the reasons I have given, that services are available in other countries.

Although maybe not as good - PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: No. 34 Rl989

A point of order, the bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: · In the last several days the Opposition continue to abuse the rules of the House. We are on a supplementary question here now . If you look at the Standing Orders on Page 11, it reads, "In putting any oral questions, no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any fact stated except so far as may be necessary to explain · the same; and in answering any such question, the Minister is not to debate the matter to which it refers." "Oral questions must not be prefaced by the reading of letters, telegrams, newspaper extracts or

preambles of any kind. •• That is for the original question. How we are on a second supplementary and the bon. member is still into opinion and still prefacing his question. I think this is an abuse of the rules of the House and we should address it. MR. TULK: To that point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. the member for Fogo. MR . TULK: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to take up the time of Question Period,, but the Premier should also remember, for his own people over there, that as well as short questions there are short answers.

We just saw the hon. gentleman go on for about five minutes. KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, the point is well taken. Ll990 May 16, 1986 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: It is not well taken. KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have to ask the bon. member for Twillingate to pose his question, In his final supplementary he was getting into a bit of a speech and I was just about to draw his attention to that. So the point is well taken. HR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. member for St. John's Harth. MR. J.

CARTER : I assume Your Honour chose to ignore the last remark from the member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) . When Your Honour said that this point was well taken the member there said it was not well taken. He disagreed with Your Honour in the most churlish manner possible and I think he should be discip .lined. It is not the first time he has done it. MR. SIMMONS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: I still retain the right to have my own opinion. It was not well taken, but I respect the finding of the Chair. KR.

SPEAKER: To that certainly comments. point did MR. W. CARTER: Ho. 34 of not order, hear I any Rl990

Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Will the minister agree to make representation to his federal counterpart and request that every possible device at our disposal be employed to put a stop to overfishing? If it means imposing other economic sanctions such as sanctions, on the import of wine, then will they do that rather than just zero in on one particular aspect as they are doing now with respect to closing the ports? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Kr. Speaker, we are not zeroing in on one little narrow area at all.

We have gone all the way as a Province and as a provincial government in saying to the federal government that we have to wrestle with this matter. Now, we have made progress, Kr. Speaker. I say to my friend for Twillingate, get off the fence and come onside because the federal government is about to initiate some very important policy changes in dealing with foreign countries that the former administration in Ottawa did not have the guts to initiate. KR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Port de decrease in bank interest charges, in fact, the lowest rates in eight years according to the latest new~. We have also seen, Mr. Speaker, a decrease in the price of gasoline at the pumps, not enough, but some decrease. PREMIER PECICFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECICFORD: Page 132 of Beauchesne,

Section 359, Subsection (1) and (2), reads, "It must be a question, not an expression of an opinion, representation, argumentation, nor debate.

(2) The question must be brief. A

preamble need not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. •• I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I think the bon. member was making a very long introduction to his question. I ask him to pose his question now. MR. EFFORD: Kr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Consumer Affairs.

Can he tell the people of the Province and this House of Assembly if, these decreases in the interest rates and the cost of gasoline, and so on, are being reflected, and '· by how much, on the cost of consumer goods and food to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador? Grave. MR. RUSSELL: MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Consumer Affairs (Kr. Russell). Recently we have seen a great L1991 May 16, 1986 Vol XL Kr. Speaker, the hon. member in his

preamble said that the rate of interest and gas prices were declining. What a wonderful federal government we have, Mr. Speaker! No. 34 R1991

SOME .HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RUSSELL: I think the member's ·question has this been reflected in the prices of consumer goods. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are thousands and thousands of consumer goods in various stores in this Province supermarkets , dry good stores • hardware stores - and I just do not have the time, Mr. Speaker, to check on each and every one of them. MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR.

EFFORD: That is the receive from Consumer Affairs. usual answer the Minister we of Recently we brought the attention of the Minister of Consumer Affairs that the price of diesel oil at the tanks has not gone down for consumer. We are right now in the middle of the trucking season. I would like to ask the Minister of Consumer Affairs does he have an answer for consumers using this diesel fuel about why the price has not yet gone down at the pumps? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, the price of diesel fuel has gone down at the pumps.

It has gone down over the past number of weeks. As I have said may times in this House, the prices of gasoline and diesel fuel and home heating fuel have gone Ll992 May 16, 1986 Vol XL down, although they have not gone down as much as we would like them to go down. For the benefit of ~he hon. member and in reference to the use of diesel fuel particularly by truckers of this Province, he should be aware that a lot of the truckers in this Province are buying diesel fuel in Nova Scotia and ·not purchasing it in the Province. MR. EFFORD: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR.

EFFORD: No wonder they are buying it in Nova Scotia because of the high cost here in this Province. Diesel fuel at the tanks right now is 65.2 cents a litre. I would like to ask the minister, Mr. Speaker, does he not agree that an active Minister of Consumer Affairs, not a silent one would be more effective for the people of this Province and we would see greater benefits to consumers in gasoline, food, and oil supplies and take away a lot of the negative answers that the minister just gave to this House of Assembly? SOME HOIJ. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR.

RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I would silent and active than of noise, like the member, and get nowhere. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 34 rather be make a lot bon. the Rl992

Hear, hear! KR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. KR. FLIGHT: Kr. Speaker, in view of the absence of the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), I would like to direct this question to the Premier. Would the Premier agree that every precaution should be taken to guarantee the safety and peace of mind of people in this Province using our different airlines? KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes. KR. FLIGHT: Kr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: Would the Premier care to indicate to the House why it is then, that our local airlines, Air Atlantic and Air Labrador, are exempt from security checks in this Province? Flying in and out of Gander, St. John • s, and other areas there are no security checks in place. Why not? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. KR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: L1993 May 16, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, that question is completely out.of .order because it comes under the jurisdiction of another government. MR. SPEAKER: I must rule that question is out of order. MR.

FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the Premier in , his first answer indicated that he was concerned. I would ask the Premier now has his government not been aware that there is no security in place on our local carriers? Is he prepared to make the necessary representation to the federal government that he ·referred to to make sure that security checks are implemented just as effectively as they are on Air Canada and CP airline flights and all other flights originating in this Province and flying into this Province?

Will he see that those kind of · security checks apply to our local air companies, like Air Atlantic and Air Labrador and possibly Air Nova when it comes on? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: A foolish question! They are scraping the bottom of the barrel. They do not have any other good questions, Mr. Speaker. MR. FEHWICIC: Mr ·. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Kenihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: I want protection. You have a security officer with you every No. 34 R1993

day. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: We have game laws to protect Liberals. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. My question has to do with the request by the residents of Labrador to have a separate federal riding for the Labrador area. There had been all party agreement in the past on setting one up when there were intentions of having eight federal ridings in the Province. It is my understanding from the new electoral law passed last Fall - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member is making a speech. MR. FENWICK: I will get to the question now.

My question to the Premier is this: What is the position of your government with respect to having a separate seat for Labrador if it means that we will only have seven seats .. in total in the Province. MR. SPEAI<BR: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECICFORD: I will take the question under advisement. I would like to see an eighth seat, the eighth one being the Labrador one. So I will have to take the question under advisement and get back to the hon. member on it. Because if you are talking about seven seats and having Labrador separate it has a major impact upon the rest of the Province.

So I will have to take the question under advisement and get back to the hon. member. L1994 May 16, 1986 Vol XL MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAI<BR: A supplementary. the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: On April 24 I wrote the Premier asking him for an opinion or a position at that time, and that is about three weeks ago. My question is has the Premier read my letter and has he had a chance to think about it? Why does he have to take the question under advisement now? MR. SPEAICER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECICFORD: Primarily because we have to check with our caucus and the Cabinet and the party before we give any response to it. We did have a meeting of the Executive Council of our party last week, we have to have a number of caucus and a number of Cabinet meetings in which this is discussed. I do not decide on those things myself. That is done through a process of party, caucus and Cabinet, and that is the reason why the bon. member has not heard back. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAI<BR: The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday I raised the matter of the need for more wardens, more river guardians in the interest of protecting and conserving our Atlantic salmon from poaching which is getting quite out of control. So in view of this situation can the minister No. 34 R1994

indicate · whether the provincial government have requested more wardens, more river guardians for this fishing season for a more effective and systematic control of the salmon rivers and salmon streams of this Province, to try and cut down on the poaching which, as I have indicated. is getting quite out of control? MR. RIDEOUT: Who was the question for? MR. LUSH: The Minister of Fisheries. I said. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. the hon. gentleman did not say who the question was for.

As I indicated to him yesterday. questions related to personnel and enforcement officers and so on on inland waters come under the jurisdiction of the federal government. but when there is a provincial input, Mr. Speaker, it is done through the Minister of CUlture. Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews).

Now I told him from a fisheries management perspective. taking into context the Atlantic salmon. we as a Department of Fisheries, when we had our latest round of discussion on the Atlantic Management Plan. made it very clear to the federal government that we are not satisfied with the amount of enforcement on the rivers in this Province, we think that there ought to be an increased effort, and we have proposed, as I said to the gentleman yesterday. what I think are some innovative ideas as to how we can get to that great~r level of enforcement than we had in the past. Ll995 May 16, 1986 Vol XL MR.

LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: .A supplementary. the bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. Mr. Speaker, is it not strange in the past few months that bon. gentlemen opposite do not want any questions related to the federal government. I can understand why, Mr. Speaker. I can ~ertainly understand why. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman is making a speech. MR. LUSH: No. I am not.

I am making a point. a good one. KR. MARSHALL: Question Period has been so empty today, from all sides, that I am almost tempted to move that the Orders of the Day be read but I will now. But it is really bereft of any kind of intelligent thrust from the other side. KR. SPEAKER: To that point of order. I would ask the bon. member for Bonavista North to please pose his question. MR. LUSH: Thank you. Mr . Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. No. 34 Rl995

Kr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries alluded to some innovative ideas to ensure that our fishing rivers and streams are better protected this fishing year. Will the minister please elaborate on the specifics of these innovative ideas with relation to any suggestions that he has made to Ottawa in terms of increasing the protection and controlling of our fishing rivers and streams in this Province this fishing season? What are the innovative ideas? KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth. KR. MATTHEWS: Kr.

Speaker, I think the questions that were asked yesterday of the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Ot tenheimer) , and again this morning to the Minister of Fisheries, have been answered very capably and very ably by my colleagues as it pertains to wardens on our rivers in the Province and the concern that we have for Atlantic salmon. We attended the Atlantic Salmon Management Plan meetings, Kr.

Speaker, just a few weeks ago and the Minister of Fisheries, as always, was there as well, and the thing is that we have impressed upon the federal government very, very strongly that we feel there is a need for an increased number of wardens on our rivers to protect our salmon inland and we will continue to do that, Mr. Speaker. I find it somewhat strange, because this government, Mr. Speaker, for years has been emphasizing and preaching that we need more jurisdiction over fish stocks, whether they be off our shores or inland, and we never seem to get the support of the L1996 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL Opposition, Mr.

Speaker. We never seem to get their support. KR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. KR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Kr. Speaker. I would like to direct a question to the Premier as the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) is not in his seat today. Would the Premier tell us if his government is going to take a provincial initiative to put a programme in place for young people in this Province to help them get employment? KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : Yes, Mr. Speaker. KR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. KR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Stephenville. KR. K. AYLWARD: Would the Premier give us a little bit of detail as to what this programme may entail and when we might see, in the next hundred years, that programme? KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, if you want me to give some detail it is going to take me a while because it requires a long answer, and then I am going to get a point of order from the No. 34 R1996

Opposition saying that the Premier is monopolizing Question Period. It is all a question of how far the Opposition want to go. They cannot have their cake and eat it too. If they want me to give an answer to what we are going to be doing this · year for Summer unemployment it is going to take long and then I am going to be into a problem with your colleagues over there. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is just time for· a very short question and answer. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Would the Premier give us a one paragraph

summary of about five or ten lines on what he may be doing in the very near future? MR. SPEAKER: The.hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Five or ten lines? There will be about 140 Summer jobs for youths in the Department of CUlture, Recreation and Youth, to start with. We are going to be involved with the federal government in their Summer employment programme. How many jobs were there last year? MR. SIMMS: Six thousand. PREMIER PECKFORD: Six thousand young people were working last year around the Province. Hopefully, we can get Ll997 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL more than 6,000 working this year, Mr. Speaker.

Wherever we can, in the other government departments and agencies, we will be hiring students. We, on an ongoing basis yearly, not only in the Summertime but throughout the year, have students coming from the various post-secondary institutions into the various departments as part of their training, and then they go back to the University or the Trades College or the Institute of Fisheries ·afterwards. So we are co-operating with them. In the last year we have created over 10,000 jobs. MR. SIMMS: Ten thousand in one year. PREMIER PECKFORD: Ten thousand in one year, Hr . Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: In one month, from last month to this months, there are over 6, 000 more people working in the Province. So we are making progress, Mr. Speaker. In a short period of time, that is the best I can do for the hon. member. If members opposite would like me to continue for the next half-hour, I would be very happy to get into more detail on this matter for hon. members . SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SPEAKER: Leave is granted. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. No. 34 R1997

I am very pleased opportunity to go explain. to have ahead the and Last year. we started, with the federal goverrunent, · a new programme. The programme is not just goverrunent orientated, it is both government and the private sector. For example, I had cases last year in my own constituency where we had a surveying firm and we had students coming out of Grade XII who were going into surveying; and, as part of this SEED programme, a number of students were able to be employed by that surveying firm for the Summer and so get some experience to know whether in fact they really liked it.

So they had a job for the Summer, they earned some money, and could go on to the College of Trades and Technology in the Fall and get involved in a surveying course. Now, rather than just take people on and not do anything, we should try to link the jobs we are getting for them to the kind of educational opportunity that they are looking for. That is a little bit more difficult than the other way of doing it. And last year, as I said, over 6,000 Newfoundland students, young people, were employed on that kind of programme.

Now, not only through those 6 , 000 jobs, also in the Summer, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms), as a lot of us know, gets involved in silviculture. How, there are two parts to silviculture, Mr. Speaker. There is the thinning programme which most times involves existing loggers or existing woodsmen. · But there is another part of the programme that helps many parts of Newfoundland where students get L1998 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL jobs. Some of them could · be people who want to go in to be a forest technician or a forest technologist. I know once again that we are into - KR.

TULK: A point of order, Kr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the bon. the member for Fogo. KR. TULK: The Premier is waxing eloquent over there talking about all the jobs he has created in Newfoundland, so I wonder if he could tell us why his own documents, prepared by, I think, the Department of Finance, why it show a net loss of 1, 000 jobs in this Province since he took office? Those are his figures, not ours. I wonder if he could explain how, after creating all those jobs, we still have 1000 jobs less than we had before he took office? PREMIER PECKFORD: Was that a point of order; Mr.

Speaker? KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. The bon. the Premier is speaking by leave at the present time. PREMIER PECKFORD: I am trying to get into showing the kind of things we are doing for student employment. I was talking about forestry. What I was trying to explain was in reforestation, Mr. Speaker, which is part of the overall silviculture programme, you will find around the Province a No. 34 R1998

significant number of students participating in that very, very significant progranune. I know in my own constituency and all over some 1200 people are involved in reforestation. That is a significant amount. We have also been encouraging the private sector to hire students during the Summer, especially in a lot of our fish plants. Mr.

Speaker, let me just show you that within government - they wanted to have some figures already students, as they come out of University and come out of their courses now, because we are into May, in the Department of Finance there are fourteen already hired and more to be hired as the next couple of weeks go by and students come out. This is within government itself. In Fisheries there are already four hired and they are going to be hiring more. Mines and Energy are going to be hiring over sixty students. They already have six hired. Others will be coming on when the field work gets started around the Province.

MR. FLIGHT: After graduation? PREMIER PECKFORD: Ho. Right now in the next few weeks. MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: The member for Fogo asked the minister if he could explain why there has been a net loss of 1000 jobs, by the Premier's own L1999 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL figures, since he took office. I would like to ask him to respond to that. MR. SIMMS: There are more people in the work force. MR. BARRY: Ho. It has people in the total numbers nothing to do with work force. That is employed then· and now, the number of jobs.

MR. SIMMS: There are more people in the work force. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, would former Speaker to please? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: you ask the keep quiet, Mr. Speaker, what we want to know is whether the Premier is going to continue on with these ad hoc, petty little projects that have seen .unemployment amongst young people go up to 40 per cent since he came into office? MR. SIMMS: That is not a point of order. MR. SPEAICER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. BAIRD: Sit down, boy! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I am sure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition - MR.

BARRY: I have not had an opportunity to Ho. 34 R1999

present my question. MR. SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. MR. BARRY: No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, if I could be given an opportunity without interruption to state my point of order, the point of order is that the Premier was given leave to address the issue of what is he planning to do with respect to future job creation for young people on a systematic, sustained basis that is going to see a dent put in that 40 per cent unemployment rate we have amongst our young people. We are not looking for a continuation of the petty make-work, short-term projects which we see the Premier engaging in right now.

Leave will be withdrawn if he does not address the main, substantial issue. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: That is not a point of order. . I was asked by an bon. member opposite to say what we were doing for student employment this Sununer, and I am trying to answer that. I will then get to the Leader of the Opposition's issue of longer term employment opportunities for students. I want to answer the bon. member first and then I will get to the Leader of the Opposition.

But, in any case, there is no point of order. L2000 May 16, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order . The hon. the Premier is speaking by leave at the present time. The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Kr. Speaker, thank you very much. Just to deal with the Leader of the Opposition briefly, this is what we are doing in the silviculture thing right now. It is a long-term thing where we bring students who are interested in forestry into the forestry sphere.

They get work for the Summer, get some money like the surveyors did, go on to educational post-secondary institutions get their courses and then get back into the forestry with their courses to secure their future.

One of the big arguments that students have, and the Summer Employment programme tried to address that for the first time starting last year, was the question of a student having a certificate in some trade or occupation or profession, goes to an employer, asks for a job and the employer says; 'You have no experience.' And through the SEED programme what we are trying to do is that while that student is going through the course, they also have some time out in the practical world so that when they get their certificate they can go to the employer and say, • I have the certificate, I also have some experience. • And that gives them a better opportunity to get a job.

Now, Mr. Speaker, let me just continue to answer the bon. the member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward). Sixty student jobs are available now in Kines and Energy, in energy conservation, in geology, and getting students No. 34 R2000

who came from first year geology or second year geology into the field. Public Works will be hiring ten students; RAND-Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development - will be hiring twenty-five to thirty students; Social Services will be hiring seventy-four and the majority of the students Social Services will be hiring will be students who are going into social work. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: It is no wonder that we have this tremendous number of young people unemployed in this Province.

Some 40 per cent, when you see the Premier stand in this House and name off enought jobs, at this point I say to him, to take care of the secondary students and the high school students from Fogo Island, one Island in this Province. Is it any wonder that we have this tremendous number of people unemployed? He has no concept of the problem whatsoever. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the Opposition gave me leave to talk and to tell about the jobs we are creating this Summer, and then they get up on points of order which are not point of order. Let me finish it.

Of the seventy-four students to be hired this Summer by Social Services, 'these are just students now, sixty-five have already been hired. They are not in st. John's and Corner Brook but have been L2001 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL hired in all the district offices around the Province to give an opportunity for students from around the Province, who are into social work to go back to 'their own community and get a job in the Summertime working for the Department of Social Services because they are into sociology or into psychology or into social work. Mr.

Speaker, that is significant, sixty-five already hired and there will be seventy-four. In Transportation there will be close to sixty hired. Now, what do we do in Transportation? Here is another good one. This has to do with surveying and with engineering. What we have in the Department of Transportation are engineers, surveyors, student engineers, student surveyors going out and working for the Transportation Department in the Summertime when the road projects are underway, which gives them experience again. In the Department of Health we have eight hired.

In Municipal Affairs, we have eight to ten on; for example, people who are going into accounting. In Culture, Recreation and Youth, as I said, 154 in total and twenty-five are already on. In the Department of the Environment we will have ten students, and in the Department of Development, forty. Now that is just for the Summer, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A point of order, the bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, would the Premier take his little pocket computer and add up those figures he just No. 34 R2001

gave us and compare the figures to the numbers of students coming out of Memorial University alone and going back to all of the communities · in Newfoundland this year? Would he give us a comparison of the figures for the students coming out of university? KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! That is no point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr.

Speaker, here is the Liberal Party getting up on points of order saying that the government totally controls the economy 100 per cent, because now we are going to be responsible for providing job opportunities to ensure that 100 per cent of our young people are working. Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party are now enunciating complete and total socialism - let the government take over the whole Province and be totally responsible. Now that is some direct jobs ·, the SEED Programme of $2 million, which will account for 6,000 student jobs, plus the ones we are doing directly. Now, as the President of Treasury Board (Kr.

Windsor) just said, we will be initiating this Summer, on capital account in the Department of municipal Affairs and Housing, $20 million or $25 million worth or work that will be done this Summer in which the companies, the private companies, will be hiring engineers, surveyors, young people, students, who will get jobs because of that $25 million. We have a $74 million highways programme underway which will also be out to tender, contractors will get the jobs and then the contractors will hire. L2002 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. KR.

SPEAI<ER: A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the Premier is aware of the apprenticeship and training programme which has been proposed by the Liberal Party as something which the provincial administration should look seriously at in terms of giving young people their first chance at a job. I would like to ask the Premier, will he stand up in the House and commit himself to a real training programme for young people right now? Will he commit himself to such a programme? MR. TULI<: Good question. KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

There is no point of order. PREMIER PECICFORD: Kr. Speaker, I commit myself to the following programme which was initiated right in the last few weeks, where we took twelve engineers from Memorial University who are in Norway today training under an apprenticeship programme. MR. TOBIN: That is right. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Twelve? Twelve? PREMIER PECKFORD: Starting with twelve. Starting with twelve. But if you look at all the engineers, and not just No. 34 R2002

engineers, do you know, Kr. Speaker, that there are 300 student jobs at the Housing Corporation for the Summer? If you take all those I have added up here now plus the SEED Progranune, plus the $27 million in the Community Development Progranune, plus the ongoing job strategy of $35 million a year, Mr. Speaker, you are talking about a lot of money. One way or another, there are hundreds of millions of dollars being spent today on apprenticeship programmes. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry), I do not know where he has been.

All these programmes that I have talked about in the various departments, where we take people from the university and from the College of Trades as part of their training, are apprenticeship progranunes. MR. BARRY: Short-term progranunes. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, not short-term. ongoing programmes. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: No, no, The Leader of the Opposition does not understand. We have engineers and accountants from the School of Business and from the Engineering School, from the College of Trades, coming through the government system as part of an apprenticeship programme.

We have had it for a number of years. The Leader of the Opposition is back somewhere in the past. He is not looking at what is going on around the Province. We are, Kr. Speaker, right now, doing a substantial amount to try L2003 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL to alleviate the very, very· difficult youth unemployment situation in this Province. And not only that, another good way to do it is through the introduction of new training programmes which are better suited to what the market is asking for.

For example, at the Institute of Fisheries and Marine Technology now, where we are getting into quality control, we have students from all over the Province who are involved in quality control programmes and who go back to the various fish plants around the Province and assist the fish plant owners and fish plant workers in a quality control programme. And we are into a new innovative area now, surimi processing, Kr. Speaker, for young people. MR. FLIGHT: A point of order. Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAI<ER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, my point of order is I would like to ask the Premier what advice he gives young people of this Province when employers tell them that they cannot have a first job because they have no experience, and they cannot get experience without a first job? MR. SPEAI<ER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: What advice does the Premier have for students who find themselves in that situation? MR. SPEAKER: That is no point of order. The hon. the Premier. No. 34 R2003

PREMIER PECKFORD: Kr. Speaker, as you say, that is no point of order. The point the bon. member is talking about I addressed a few minutes ago when I talked about the SEED Programme. For the first time, one of the emphases put on the SEED Programme is to try to get students into jobs that they want to train for. I just talked about the surveyor down in my own district where we had two or three students hired by that private surveyor. Mr. Speaker, the Liberals scoff at two or three jobs here, two or three jobs there, but that is fine. That is still a lot of jobs, Mr. Speaker, as far as we are concerned.

So the who!~ youth unemployment problem has several aspects to it: One is that you have to ensure that students, through the high schools into the post-secondary institutions, are actually going into programmes where there is a high chance that they are going to have jobs at the other end. And, secondly, if that is true, then to try to get some experience for them while they are going through that educational opportunity in the university or in the College of Trades or in the Institute of Fisheries and Marine Technology.

And there is a great pressure upon the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) now in developing new courses at the Institute of Fisheries, at the College of Trades, and at the university. And one of the things that we are involved in, which comes directly into youth employment, is this business of overhauling our whole post-secondary institution system to make it more responsive to the jobs that are out there. L2004 May 16, 1986 Vol XL MR. FLIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE.A.KER: A point of order, the bon . the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: I wonder if the Premier would indicate to the House if our young students and our young people in - MR. SIMMS: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE.A.KER: Order, please! A point of privilege, the bon . the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, what we are seeing here now, this morning, is a real abuse of the rules of the House, an abuse of the privileges of members of this House. It is clear what the Opposition is trying to do. They see some young people up in the galleries and they are trying to play to the galleries to score cheap political points.

This is precisely what they are trying to do and, Mr. Speaker, that is an abuse of the rules, that is an abuse of the privileges of members of this House of Assembly. They have given leave to the Premier to answer a question asked by the member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward), yet they are getting up every two seconds and asking questions under the guise of points of order. That is against the rules of the House, Mr. Speaker, and should not be permitted. Let members opposite, who are also elected members of this House and represent constituents, tell us No. 34 R2004

how many jobs they have been able to create as elected members of the people of this Province. Let them answer that question, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: To that point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, what is happening here today, for the benefit of young people in the gallery, is somewhat unusual.

I think they are entitled to know, as much as anybody else, that what is happening here right now, this morning, is somewhat unusual in that we are, on this side of the House, agreeing to suspend the ordinary business of the House to let the Premier go on and attempt to explain why it is he has let youth unemployment rise to 40 per cent in this Province since he came into power. We are asking the Premier to explain why it is that the number of real jobs in this Province has declined by 1,000 since he came into power. MR. SIMMS: You are just playing politics. MR.

BARRY: We are asking the Premier to indicate why he will not accept the advice we have given to bring in a programme which would see young people from all over the Province, not a select few from the University or a select few from one or two schools, be part of an apprenticeship and training programme that will guarantee every young person leaving school, L2005 May 16, 1986 Vol XL whether vocational schools, fisheries college or the University, a job from one to two years after leaving school. We are letting the Premier have an opportunity - MR. SIMMS: Pure arrogance. MR.

BARRY: Despite the member for Grand Falls trying to shout me down, contrary to the rules of the House, despite the ex-Speaker trying to shout me down-MR. SIMMS: Pure arrogance. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

BARRY: Despite the member opposite trying to shout me down, we are giving the Premier time to explain why he will not bring in a programme to reduce taxes in this Province to let business expand to create more jobs .to see more young people employed, and the Premier gets up in his usual complacent fashion and says, 'Oh, we are alright Jack, everything is rosy', with 40 per cent of our young people unemployed. He should be ashamed to go on with that nonsense he is going on with today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: A great speech in front of the gallery, my son. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I do not think there is any prima facie case of breach of privilege. No. 34 R2005

MR. BARRY: See, you are wrong again. Wrong again! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! What is happening here is that there are a number of members on my right who are getting up on what are very obviously not points of order and it is just interrupting the bon. the Premier who has been given leave by the same members to speak. The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: They made a big mistake in giving me leave, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: I want to ask the Premier if he thinks employment opportunities for youth in Newfoundland have now reached the point where our young Newfoundlanders unemployed in Alberta can come home, the way he promised them they would be able to come home in 1978-79? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That is no point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: No point of order again, Mr. Speaker, just proving your point.

Just let me review before I go on with a whole ream of other material that I have here: Number one, there are $2 million, as we said earlier, into the SEED Programme with the · federal L2006 May 16, 1986 Vol XL government, or Challenge '86, for student employment in Newfoundland, and it is to address exactly what the Leader of the Opposition was talking about. . I will not shout and bawl like he did to try and get the point across, to do exactly what he said. It is not just for students coming out of university in st. John • s, it is distributed all around the Province.

The private sector businessman in Musgrave Harbour can hire a student who is coming out of high school and wants to go into accounting in Gander District Vocational School. Or a student who wants to go in for surveying in Kings Point gets on with a surveyor in Kings Point for the Summer to earn money and get experience in that. That is the difference between the SEED Programme started last year and continued this year from the programmes of the past, and it helps address the kind of principle that the Leader of the Opposition is talking about.

We are looking at somewhere between 6,000 to 7,000 student jobs this · Summer.. It is still not enough, there needs to be more. The Leader of the Opposition talks about reducing taxes. If we reduce taxes , Mr. Speaker, to do what he says, what roads are we going to stop reconstructing and paving? What hospital beds are we going to close down? What social services are we going to reduce? We are now at too high a tax rate and we are still in deficit on our operating account, on our current account. We cannot pay our heat and light bill, we have to borrow $40 million this year for it, with these high taxes.

Any student can understand that. There is nothing a politician would like to do more than reduce No. 34 R2006

taxes. if you could still provide as many services as you did with · the higher taxes. and create more jobs for young people with the lower taxes. which you cannot do. It defies economic logic. It cannot be done. So I am talking about that 6.000 jobs. Secondly, through the departments we are - going to be creating somewhere around 600 or 700 jobs this Summer, quite likely a bit more, because the Housing Corporation is up to 300 all by themselves. We could quite conceivably get to 800 or 900 this year, just through government departments directly.

I look at the SEED programme. and I have just been passed a note on it, to show you how well this programme, Challenge '86 1 is working, Hr. Speaker. Just listen to this: Now, it has nothing to do with St. John's, nothing to do with the Avalon Peninsula. In the federal district of Gander Twillingate there were 189 projects under Challenge '86. Not bad! Students and people in the area are interested in creating ·jobs. Four hundred and fifty jobs for students this Summer will be created in Gander - Twillingate. Now, that is not perfection. We have not reached omnipotence yet, we are not ready for going above but.

Mr. Speaker, it is something. MR. BARRY: How long are those jobs for? PREMIER PECKFORD: They are student jobs. before they go to the university or before they go to the colleges. MR. BARRY: Tell us about full-time jobs. MR. SPEAKER: L2007 May 16, 1986 Vol XL Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: Just in the provincial riding of St. Mary' s - the Capes, which is part of St. John's West, the number of · projects approved thirty-nine, the number of jobs created 206. Mr. Speaker, this is the kind of thing that is happening around the Province. It is still not good enough. MR. BARRY: No full time jobs.

PREMIER PECKFORD: And the Leader of the Opposition keeps _piping up. MR. BARRETT: Carbonear. PREMIER PECKFORD: Carbonear: Challenge Programme, seventy-six already, 106 jobs created, Carbonear district, not federal riding. MR. BARRY: None full time. PREMIER PECKFORD: '86 jobs just in in a Now. the Leader of the Opposition pipes up, out of order again, asking about full-time jobs. We have reduced our unemployment rate over the last number of months. We are making progress. I think we reduced our unemployment rate more month over month this past two months than any other province of Canada, by over 2 per cent.

That is 6,000 jobs more this month than last month. So there is some progress being made, Mr. Speaker. Talking about permanent jobs. and it will involve students over a time • too, who saved the Corner Brook mill and now sees it modernized, a modern new facility No. 34 R2007

on the West Coast that has not had one second of downtime since Kruger took it over? So things are happening. We are now looking at a gold mine at Chetwynd which is going to . involve somewhere around 700 or 800 construction jobs, at peak, over the next two or three years, the first gold mine we will have in the Province. We are looking at a slate operation out on Random Island that is going to get off the ground in the next couple of months, Kr. Speaker.

We are looking at the pulp mill in Labrador, in Happy Valley - Goose Bay, where we have companies now involved doing feasibility studies, and whose report will be in to us next month, Mr. Speaker. Those are the kinds of things we are doing: I know the Liberals and the Leader of the Opposition - MR. FLIGHT: The young people are gone. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, and there are more coming in up here, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, what the Liberal Opposition are trying to say cannot be substantiated by facts. From April to September last year, we created 700 new jobs just through rural development, Mr. Speaker.

I can go on and on with numbers. The other problem that you have is the participation rate. If you want to get serious about the discussion, you have to think about the participation rate. Up to two or three years ago, our participation rate was somewhere around 35 per cent - the Canadian average was 54 per cent. Now we L2008 May 16, 1986 Vol XL have gone from 35 per cent up to 53 per cent in a lot quicker time than the other provinces did. So we had a lot more people coming into the labour force, this boom, and we were delayed in it. So, Mr.

Speaker, when you take it all into consideration, we are not doing such a bad job in Newfoundland and Labrador. Nor are we doing such a bad job throughout all of Canada right now. Jobs are being created at a record pace, inflation is down to 4 per cent or less than 4 per cent this morning 3. 9 per cent, interest rates are going down - the Bank of Canada rate now is at what? - 10.75 per cent. So things are starting to turn around. The fishery in Newfoundland, 495 jobs in Humber - Port au Port. There is another number, 495. How many now, if you add up all the numbers that I have mentioned this morning, Mr. Speaker?

In the fishery, Mr. Speaker, we are looking now at perhaps one of the better years ever in the history of the fishery in Newfoundland. We will have some announcements next week about what we · are doing in the fishery to create 2, 000 or 3, 000 jobs. Since last June, 634 new jobs created in St. Mary's - The Capes alone in the fishery. Where we have brought the Portuguese in, they have modernized plants and expanded plants in River Head and in st. Mary's. We have an American company down in Branch, in St. Mary's, we have O'Brien's in St.

Bride's, all of whom have either modernized the plants or expanded the plants. There are more jobs in St. Mary's - The Capes now than ever before, new jobs in the fishery. Foreign investment has been involved, we have been No. 34 R2008

involved, and we have created a lot of new jobs there. Look at the offshore fishery and the inshore fishery up on the Great Northern Peninsula. I was talking to some people from the Great Northern Peninsula last week where the fishery is booming right now, right along the coast. Look what we did in St. Anthony by· FPI being involved there. There has been more work in St. Anthony in the last twelve months, in the plant, than there has ever been since that plant opened.

The same way in my own district, in Triton, where FPI took over the fish plant - more days worked in the last year in that plant than since that plant was constructed. st. Anthony is a classic case of it. If we can get some more of that Northern turbot and halibut, as well as the Northern cod, from the zones there - MR. TOBIN: That is from the Throne Speech. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes. So, Mr. Speaker, jobs are being created and they are being created at a record pace.

That is not to say that all is perfect or there it is perfection, but a lot of significant, concrete moves are being made to try to arrest a very difficult problem, which has been a chronic problem in Newfoundland and Labrador ever since we have had an organized society here. It is nothing new. That is not to say it makes it any more pleasant. Some of it is very structural for a whole range of reasons, which are history and geography and population and all the rest of it.

But a lot of good things are happening in a lot of our basic ~esource sectors, and the fishery is the most promising L2009 May 16, 1986 Vol XL o~ them . e' '\.. No question, the f1shery 1s the mo:s'c. t)romising of them all. Then, of c~··.,........ ..,e have the offshore whic~ we are working hard on to try t~ get off the ground. so ·, Kr. Speaker, we t~ a back seat to no administrat~o ~ ever in the history of this Pr~vince in saying that we are bulilding a strong foundation on whi1h we are going to create a lot of ,obs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please!

Order, l ~lease! I was given a note here j'u st after our Question Period h started and I did not want to interrupt our questions. In th gallery today we have sixty-six Grade XI students from Ascension Collegiate, Bay with their teachers Wade and Ernest Mullins and I so have great pleasure in welco!nf"ng sixty students from Kindergrten to Grade VI from Browns Arm, Karantha Academy with their teach r Kelvin Ball. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! KR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Mini~ter of Development. KR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I am vllaased to No. 34 R2009 '.

present to the House the annual report of the Newfoundland and i.;obra(!oJ:" Development Corporation for the year ending March 31, 1985. During this 1984-85 period the Corporation approved $3.5 million in term loans for sixteen projects and one equity investment of $100,000. This financial activity assisted in the creation and maintenance of 439 full-time jobs and 43 part-time jobs.

The Corporation continues its mandate of providing funding assistance to the small business community of this Province and, since 1979, has now distributed over $32 million in loan funds which has created 2,579 full-time jobs and 457 part-time jobs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Rotices of Kotion KR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Labour. · KR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled "An Act To Amend The Workers• Compensation Act, 1983." (Bill No. 39). Petitions MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, I have five petitions L2010 May 16, 1986 Vol XL to introduce. Before I do I would like to indicate to the hon. members that there are still petitions coming in on the encyclopedia and I take to heart the comments made by members the last time I presented. any. I am endeavouring to make sure that there are copies of these petitions for the members from whose districts these originate. Petitions today on the encyclopedia come from st.

Steven's School in Rencontre East, from John Watkins Central High School in Hermitage, from Exploits Valley _ Integrated School District, from Change Islands Integrated School in Change Islands, and from Grand Falls Academy, the Central High School. These five peti t~~r1s t __ Mr. Speaker. are similar to the ones we presented before. I will read one of the letters that came with it. It was signed by Gary Wells, the principal of St. Steven's School in Rencontre East. It is a copy of a letter to Bill Matthews, but it is germane to the actual encyclopedia so I feel it is worthwhile to read.

It says: "Dear Sir, This school wishes to give its support to the request by the Smallwood Newfoundland Encyclopedia Staff for $1.5 million to complete the project. These encyclopedias are of very high quality both in terms of research and writing. These books are a great asset to any school library and to any student of Newfoundland history and culture. our cultural heritage in the education of our youth can never have a price tag pinned to it. The government has a duty to enhance the education of our youth and to help preserve our culture, let it take that duty seriously No. 34 R2010

and take the appropriate action now. Yours sincerely, Gary Wells, Principal." This letter was originally addressed to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth and a copy was sent to me. Mr. Speaker, I think it echoes quite adequately the other letters that seem to be coming in as well. There seems to be very strong support from the users of this particular resource. I would like to at this point make one point about the Encyclopaedia of Newfoundland and Labrador. There has _ been confusion in my discussions with the members opposite, especially with some of . the Cabinet ministers.

What we are talking about here is not the Boo~_C?t . Newfoundland, which I think Mr. Smallwood produced as far back as about the 1930s. This is an encyclopedia that was specifically done as an encyclopedia. It was done with some of the best graduate students that were available at the time. These were people who graduated with a Masters Degree in history and so on. The degree of scholarship is unparalleled anywhere else, I would say, in the country for an encyclopedia of this sort.

The writing is highly professional and the comments we are getting from the libraries is that these are some of the most intensively used reference sources that they have. I would like to make sure that people understand that there is a difference between the Books of Newfoundland and this particular work. So, Mr. Speaker, I would hope that a number of the members whose districts have sent in these petitions would be willing to speak to it, especially the ones on the Conservative side~ I L2011 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL believe that the member for Exploits (Dr.

Twomey), since one of his schools has brought one in, I think it is from Cottrell's Cove, might be willing to speak to­ it. I would very much appreciate hearing his comments on it. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. KR. BARRY: On a point of order, Kr. Speaker, unless somebody wants to speak to the petition. I will yield in that case. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A point of order, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I would like to ask the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall), in light of the fact that on the factory freezer trawler issue government requested a unanimous resolution from this House in what seemed to be, but what turned out to be just a sham of a display of an attempt to change that decision, I would like to ask the minister will he now grant leave to have the unanimous consent of the House to have the Premier send the telex which I drafted earlier with respect to the fresh air tax so that the full points with respect to this tax are sent to the minister directly from the House showing that this is an all-party position? KR.

MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. KR. SPE.AICER: To that point of order, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. MARSHALL: The bon. the Leader is just playing politics. The day is long No. 34 R2011

gone when the hon. gentleman would draft telexes for the Premier and he will never draft telexes as Premier. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. Orders of the Day MR. MARSHALL: Order 16, Bill No. 5. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Land Development Act.'" (Bill No. 5). MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Stephenville has spoken for five minutes. 0 0 0 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, if I might, on a point of order. If I could just table that telex which I requested that the minister send and which he is now refusing to send. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. KR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker that is not in order. It is not in order. MR. BARRY: Of course it is in order. MR. MARSHALL: L2012 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL No, it is not in order. There are rules in this House and we are now in the ordinary routine of business. I have called the government order. There are points and times for the bon. gentleman but, the point that I am trying to make, Kr. Speaker, is that no member of this House can disrupt the ordinary routine of business and try to use the House for his own purposes.

There are times and there are places for doing it and I think it is entirely out of order for a member to get up on a point of order and say, .. I am going to table it." That is not a point of order. That is a proceeding that the bon. gentleman is trying to inject into the House that is, in fact, out of order. MR. BARRY: To that point of order, Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I would submit to Your Honour that I rose on another point of order.

My point of order is that I am seeking to have the minister and his colleagues grant leave to have a telex tabled, which the House is entitled to have before it, whether or not there is leave granted to send it. It is the only way the record of this House can be complete. I realize members opposite want to try and censor as much as they can. They want to use their propaganda machinery in government to buy full page ads using the taxpayers' dollars and try and stifle every attempt by the Opposition to show that they are only pretending to fight the federal government on the fresh air tax, just as they No. 34 R2012

were only pretending to fight them on factory" freezer trawlers. But they are not going to be allowed to censor what goes on in this House. That telex and the tabling of that telex is an essential part of the point of order which I asked Your Honour to consider. I asked for leave to send that telex. Whether or not it is sent, I want it tabled in this House and I am entitled to have it tabled in this House. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, how dramatic, how mad and how aruioyed!

We are all shivering in our shoes over here at the hon. gentleman. Look, the way that the hon. gentleman is operating in the House, we should do one of two things. Over the weekend, either the hon. gentleman get tranquilized and come back into the House calmer, or else we will have to find a bird's cage to put over his seat to keep him under control. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To the original point of order, I ruled that there was no point of order. I understand the hon. the Leader of the Opposition rose on another point and, quite frankly, I am not clear what the procedure is.

I will look into it and rule on that on Tuesday. 0 0 0 L2013 May 16, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. IC. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To continue my comments on the Land Development Act and the amendment to that. We have expressed some concerns as of yesterday, and just to highlight those concerns again, we feel that, while it is now going to be at the discretion of the minister, the regulations or the allowance of that should be watched carefully. This procedure is supposed to be made simplier.

We will have to watch to see that it be done in the proper fashion so that more effective decisions can be made quickly and done in a less complicated manner. Also, people in the agricultural industry are wondering where their agreement is. As it relates to these communities, this amendment and the land development in these communities, we would like to make sure .and urge the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R. Aylward) to find that agreement and to get it signed.

We would offer the opportunity for the minister to look into a possible appeals procedure for people who have disputes with land being allocated through the Department of Forest Resources and Lands and if he would look at developing a procedure as it is very expensive for people to go through the law courts to battle the department on disputes over land. on that note, I will close my corranents. No. 34 R2013

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of-- Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Kr. Speaker, I assume that we are at the stage where, if the bon. minister speaks now, he closes the debate. MR; SPEAKER: The bon. minister will close the debate. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I will be very, very brief. This is, as I indicated yesterday, a housekeeping amendment. I think .I clearly explained the provisions to be contained in the legislation now. The member for Stephenville (Kr. K . Aylward), the Forestry critic on the Opposition, and · I, have discussed the- Bill.

There does not appear to be any major difficulties or problems with what is being proposed here. I will take the points the member for Stephenville made under advisement. They were not really relevant to this specific clause but some other matters that he wanted to make points on. I therefore move second reading, Mr. Speaker.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Land Development Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 5) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Labrador Linerboard Limited Agreement Act, 1979 In Order To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Amending Agreement L2014 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL Entered Into Between Her Majesty The Queen In Right Of The Province Represented · By The Honourable The Minister Of Forest Resources And Lands And Abitibi-Price Inc. •• (Bill No. 6). MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the Minister of Forest R~sources and Lands. MR.

SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, this particular amendment is also a housekeeping amendment. Essentially, if I can try and explain it, the Labrador Linerboard Agreement Act ratified the sale of the Labrador Linerboard mill to Abitibi-Price and one of the schedules,

schedule (

b) of that Agreement, outlined terms and conditions under which timber ·licenses would be issued to Abitibi with respect to the Stephenville operation. One of the clauses of that schedule, Clause 6, stipulated that in any given year the company could invest up to two-thirds of any stumpage payable to the Crown into silviculture. Obviously, we wanted them to undertake silviculture activities.

Unfortunately, there is a stipulation that prevents the company from actually using these stumpage funds specifically to regenerate areas which have been damaged by the budworm, the aphid or forest fires, as a matter of fact, which, obviously, would be a legitimate silvicultural expense. It was excluded but it certainly was not meant to be excluded. This particular amendment, really, in this Bill, just proposes that the Linerboard Limited Agreement Act be amended to allow Abitibi to use those stumpage funds to reforest areas which are not regenerating due to factors beyond No. 34 R2014

its control. I think that is fairly straightforward. If the bon. member wants to ask questions I guess he can. MR. FLIGHT: What happened to the stumpage fees? MR. SIMMS: It was going into silviculture in areas that had been harvested in normal conditions but it did not allow for the funds to be spent on silviculture in areas that had been damaged · by forest fire, woolly aphid, budworm or anything of that nature. It is a fairly straightforward thing and, in fact, Mr. Speaker, we have been allowing them to spend those funds to regenerate in those areas but, in actual fact, it actually prevented by the agreement.

So we need an amendment to allow that practice to carry on. I do not think it is a practice that anybody could criticize. I am sure we all want to see silvicultural activities taking place in those damaged areas as well as areas that have been · harvested. That is really all this amendment does , Mr. Speaker, and, again, I discussed the matter with the Forestry critic on the Opposition, the member for Stephenville, who I am sure will make a few conunents on the Bill. If there are any questions, I will try and respond to them. I move second reading. MR.. IC. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. member for Stephenville. L2015 May 16, 1986 Vol XL MR. IC. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are a number of questions and a number of topics to be brought up concerning Abitibi-Price operations. . I have had many discussions with the management of Abitibi-Price. I was very pleased to see that the mill in Stephenville and in Grand Falls, especially in Stephenville, where I represent that great town, is doing very well, and it is a very efficient operation. It is very cost effective. It has been doing its best on breaking into new markets. It is producing a high quality newsprint.

The workers there have been doing an excellent job. They have been getting awards for their performa.Il~e~ _ I must say that from the tours that I had and the discussions that I have had with management and employees, everybody involved with the operations out that way is pleased with the success so far. While we see this amendment being brought into today as supposedly more housekeeping in its nature, there are a number of questions that have to be addressed. The major one is the regeneration of the forest and, specficially, that of silviculture or that aspect of it.

It is fine to provide some more funding for Abitibi-Price or any mill to go into an area and do silviculture work. You have to wonder how these programmes are allocated, how they are watched, how they are monitored, so that when somebody or some group or some company is supposedly going in to do silviculture work, that the monitoring is done at the right places, where silviculture work should be done. These places · No. 3-4 R2015

should be monitored and a strategy for rebuilding the forest in place after it is cut down or after it is destroyed by a forest fire or whatever. So there is a maj o.r question that many people have and I have as to the monitoring activity on the strategy for long-term growth of the forest. As has been indicated by the recent signing of the Forestry Agreement, there are some future problems unless we intensify our operations in silviculture, unless we intensify our monitoring and unless we intensify our whole forest management expertise.

So the emphasis that this bill places on silviculture, on freeing up the mill officially to do this type of work has to be expanded to a whole forestry . sector for Newfoundland and Labrador. There are many concerns. I got a call yesterday from the people of Port Saunders. Some people up there who have been getting work for the last number of years involved with forestry, silviculture, the thinning of trees and so on.

They told me there was a great amount of work up there to be done and it looks as if they may not get any work this Summer because their applications have not been approved under the new system through CEIC. We have had other phone calls from other parts of the Province where similar things are happenipg. It worries me and it is a great concern for me. In regard to the direction of silviculture, the direction of forest management, how is it being monitored overall?

How is the plan put in place which is supposed to be so L2016 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL effective for the future of our Province if we have certain areas of this Province which can provide jobs with very minimal costs and which are very effective regenerating the future of our forestry. I have some major alarming thoughts about that when we cannot get these people working in these areas where we need the forests regenerated, where we need the work to be done. It is our renewable resource. It is the biggest employer in Canada. It is one of the major employers of Newfoundland. I think there is a lack of direction.

It is fine to say we are going to manage the forests as effectively as we can, but you have to put things in place that will see that done ·. From some of the calls that I am getting, I am somewhat alarmed that some of the places that should 'be emphasized and money should be going into are not being supported.

So we see forest areas on the West Coast and in the Northern part of the Province where there should be an aggressive approach taken to silviculture, where there should be an aggressive approach taken to forest management, where there should be an aggressive approach taken to the total regeneration of this viable resource that we have. It seems to me that there are people floating in the dark on this programme, not knowing exactly what is going to happen, not knowing if one year they are going to have a silviculture funding programme, if they are going to have a thinning programme, or whatever.

It seems to me there is no sense of direction in that sense. IJo. 34 R2016

'- I am alarmed at that because I feel the viability of the Abitibi-Price mill in Stephenville will only be assured for the future if the proper land is taken care of, if the proper forest management is done and if the proper wood rights are taken care of or obtained, or whatever. I have great concern that the future of this very good producing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador is in a little bit of trouble when we see a sense of floating when it comes to the programmes.

I am somewhat concerned with that because the town of Stephenville has rebounded very well with the initial signing of that previous agreement to put Abitibi-Price in there. The town is doing very well with the mill there. But for that continued prosperity in the Abitibi-Price mill and continued prosperity for that area, we are going to have to improve a great deal on what we have been doing when it comes to forest management, the regeneration of our forests, tree planting, silviculture programmes.

Those concerns I have to express, because they have been expressed to me by many people, and many people involved in the forest industry. Everybody is concerned about it. I know the minister is very concerned about it and is doing all he can to help the industry take more responsibility, which needs to be done. The industry needs to take more responsibility for tree planting and for the regeneration of the forests. I like the thought that they are spending more of their own money. We have to push them to spend more of their own money.

They are coming in here, for many years previous, mind you, and created L2017 May 16, 1986 Vol XL jobs. That is fine, but they also have a responsibility. I must say, I got a letter the other day from the head of Abitibi-Price in Toronto. It was a presentation of a brief that he made at the 1986 National Forest Congress, which I think the minister was attending. It was a short brief. but very good and to the point. It talked about the future of the forest industry in Canada and how competitive we have to become as we have lost somewhat of our market share in the paper industry in the international market.

So he pointed out . a number of things that had to be done. Five of the recommendations that he made were good recommendations. They were to the point. I hope the minister has taken these under advisement. I am going to concentrate on two or three which really pertain to what we can do down here. .. Management and labour should develop better ways of working together for maximum produc.tivity. •• I think that that is being done. I think that there is a very good feeling amongst management and labour people in the Province when it comes to Abitibi Price mills and the paper industry itself.

Working together is the only way we are going to solve any of the problems in the future. I feel that the people are being very responsible. I have talked to many workers and they have a pride in what they are doing. That is excellent to see and it bodes well for the future. It also talks about government grants to the industry being abolished and replaced with an equitable tax system that rewards the risk takers. That, I think, has to be considered by the No. 34 R2017

federal government and we should have some input into that. Also. "that we make the necessary investment in forest management and research to secure a competitive fiber supply.'' So. again it talks about investing in the future, investing in programmes and policies that will give us better forest management which will give us silviculture programmes which will be effective. The problem we have is I think there is a lack of a sense of direction in this silviculture arrangement. I think that it is somewhat, from what I have seen, lackadaisical. I think we should be more aggressive in our approach.

We should be more responsible with this resource that we have. It is, again, a major, major employer. It is the biggest employer in Canada. We export a great deal to other countries. I feel that we cannot puruse aggressively enough improved forest management and an emphasis to the companies that they have to have that responsibility, as well as the Province, to protect our forests, to regrow the trees that we have cut down and to produce a better product. This emphasis has to be placed squarely. It has to be taken on and addressed.

I have to express concerns as to the new agreement that we have, as to the investment of the federal government in our future resource, in the future of our Province, where the Abitibi Price mills and the Kruger mill operation and the sawmilling and so on, the forestry industry, is one of our future planks. I am somewhat appalled that we have a recent signing of an agreement that sees an arrangement L2018 May 16, 1986 Vol XL that goes from 90/10 to 70/30. I am somewhat appalled that we have less money coming in from the federal government to maintain a status quo situation.

I would like to see. and I think that the present government should be pushing for it, more monies from the federal side being put into the regeneration of our forests and the silviculture programmes. There is not enough money being put in. There is a lack of money and I do not think this Province should be settling for a 70/30 cost-sharing arrangement when previously we had 90/10. I am very disappointed that this administration has seen fit to do that.

I think it does not bode well for the future and for f~ture agreements if we halfheartedly just give in and say, you know, we tak~ a · year and a half to negotiate an agreement and we end up with a 70/30 arrangement. We end up with less money from · the federal government. We end up with less of a financial commi. tment to the future of the forest industry in Newfoundland and Labrador. When we end up with that, I do not think that it is something to be proud of.

I think we have to be aggressive in our approach because this industry, if it is to go anywhere and do anything. has to be managed effectively and it has to have a lot of money put into it, especially into effective programmes. When we see the federal government placing less of an emphasis, and as far as I am concerned it is less of an emphasis when they sign an agreement with us for 70/30 when it was previously 90/10, then I have great concerns over the future of the industry as to the emphasis that we are going to get No. 34 R2018

and the help we are going to get from the federal government. This cost-sharing arrangement, I think, speaks of their initiatives or their plan or their idea of ..what Newfoundland and Labrador is all about. We have had a previous federal government sign a long-term deal which provided the bulk of the funding and we now see less funding being taken by this Province, being accepted by this Province and glossed over. I do not it is anything to be proud of. I am glad we have an agreement.

I must say that it is great to see we now have one after a year and a half but I have some major problems accepting less money from the federal government, when we should be looking for more money, when there is a prec1iction that our Province's forests and our wood supply may be in danger in twenty-five or thirty years.

I wonder where the priori ties are for our provinci~l government when we see that type of approach being taken, where we see a year and a half of negotiations and we see an agreement that gives us less money over a four year period than we would have seen under a previous agreement from the federal government. While the provincial government is putting in more money. I have great concerns over the federal initiatives taken and the federal concern that has not been shown for this Province. Again, I cannot emphasize it enough that I do not think we should have settled for that.

We should have at least got what we had previously as this Province is in dire financial straits. It is in a restraint era where we have very little money for expenditures and so I have to express that great concern that this agreement, which has a 70/30 ratio, is not L2019 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL good enough. It should be better. There should be more money coming . from the federal government. I would like to ask the minister if he will pursue more funding from the federal government for silviculture prograrmnes and so on, outside of this agreement, to get some other specific monies for specific prograllll\es.

I am somewhat alarmed that we would accept so easily and give in so easily to such an arrangement when we fought so hard,- supposedly, in the past with the previous federal government to get a 90/10 arrangement. It does not bode well for the future when we have to settle for 10/30 this time. To get on ·to another more specific issue related to the bill itself. I noted with great interest as, again, Abitibi-Price in Stephenville is my main concern, the wood rights that Stephenville has. I am somewhat concerned. I have talked to management and I have talked to people in the woods..

They have to go to different parts of the Province to get their wood and truck it in. There is an arrangement made now with Kruger and they are co-operating very well. They are taking wood out, say, from Bay St. George and the Port au Port area and they will take wood from the Kruger and Kruger will take wood from Abitibi-Price's area. I am wondering if the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr.

Simms) has been talking to people or management in the industry on how we can work out an arrangement which is acceptable to all parties which will see the future of Stephenville's wood supply enhanced because I am very concerned with it. I have been Ho. 34 R2019

told by a number of people out that way that there is not many wood rights available. I would ask the minister to address that problem because in this agreement that they signed initially to bring in Abitibi-Price there was an arrangement there where, if at the end of 1987 ·- I will just read it - 'Purchases undertaken for future expansion.' I have to read this into the record. I am very concerned because I want to see an expansion and more employment created and the industry improved in Newfoundland and Labrador. "16 (

a) The purchaser intends to have a second newsprint machine under substantial construction in the Stephenville mill by the end of the year 1987 and to pursue diligently the completion and installation of the said second machine provided that a sufficient wood supply can be made available for the operation of a second machine . "(

b) As evidence of its intention outlined above, the purchaser shall deposit on the closing date the sum of $1 million with a financial institution designated by the vendor and the vendor and the purchaser shall enter into agreement with the agent which agreement shall provide that the sum deposit," and so on.

"If the purchaser has not commenced substantial construction of a second newsprint machine prior to December 31st of 1987, despite the availability of a supply of wood sufficient in the efficient operation of a second newsprint machine, the vendor shall be entitled at any time after that date to deliver notice to the agent requiring the agent to deliver to the vendor the sum held.'' L2020 May 16 , 1986 · Vol XL It was recently announced that they would not be putting in a second machine, it says here, because of the availability of the wood supply.

I am very concerned with the availability of the future wood supply for Stephenville as they are going to run into a problem a number of years down the road, and not that far down the road when it comes to the pulp and paper industry. MR. HISCOCK: Where is the Minister responsible for forestry (Mr. Simms)? MR. K. AYLWARD: He is out there. He is listening.

I have great concerns from the people out that way who would like to see an expansion by Abitibi-Price who have been doing "very well in breaking into new markets but, as it was written into the agreement that, if there was a proper wood supply, Abitibi-Price would be committed to putting in a new machine, I would like to express that as a concer.n.

If in the future they do not see it financially fit to put one in, they should have the opportunity and they should have the wood rights and they should have the proper wood supply to be able, if they want to, put in one or two or three machines in the future as the industry improves, as the operation gets more efficient, as they become more effective in the forest industry, and as they break into new markets. I want to make sure that the minister is very aware of those concerns because I think everybody would like to see this operation expand.

Everyone is very concerned with the wood rights that are available to Abitibi-Price in Stephenville. I think that it has to be addressed No. 34 R2020

in the very near future. It is something that I am doing a great deal of research on, doing a great deal of reading on, on the background of these agreements and so on, trying to find out exactly what commitments have been made, what commitments will be made in the future because if Stephenville is going to grow and is going to be prosperous over the next number of years, it wil~ be in large part due to the success of Abitibi-Price mill in Stephenville and its operations and the operations surrounding that.

So I have a great concern with this, I have a great concern when it is related . to the pulp and paper industry. We have to become very aware of the concerns of people working in the industry. We have . to become very aware . of management • s concerns. We have to become very aware of the problems that they are experiencing.

I have no problem with this amendment in that it officially allows Abitibi-Price to perform silviculture work but I want to see a closer and more aggressive approach taken to working with the companies to make sure that the proper silviculture work is being done, that there is a planned network of programmes that will see our wood programmes enhanced and that will see our industry enhanced in the future. To this date, there are many concerns expressed that there is more of a shotgun approach.

I would like the minister to look into the matter and to look into the problems that exists out there right now and there are many. We have a good future and we have a great potential but it is only going to be achieved if we have L2021 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL the proper emphasis placed where it should be and that is on the regeneration of our forest. It is going to be around a lot longer in the future if we do it right. That is the major concern that everybody has right now out there in the industry, that we emphasize and keep emphasizing, as this new forestry agreement does emphasis silviculture, which is fine.

I still think we should be putting more money into it. I think the federal government should be helping us put more money into it. I think the companies will agree and they are taking more responsibility. I am very happy to see that. But we have to be working hand in hand with all people involved, with labour, with management, . with all three levels of government, and the general public, to be made aware of the problems out there so that they can be addressed in the future. If they are not, we are in great trouble in the future.

If this industry is going to take off, if it is going to be maintained, if it is going to bring the prosperity that it can, then we have to be very careful with it. When I talk about public awareness, with the present forest fire situation that we have, it is obvious that we have we should be enhancing those out there. We should be reminding people to be careful with the forest. It is an industry and a resource that we should not fool around with and that we have to be very careful with. It has to be addressed and treated with great respect. We cannot emphasizes that enough.

As the present situation looks this Summer, we are going to be in a hard situation with forest fires. Again, this part of the amendment addresses the fact that Abitibi-Price now will be able to No. 34 R2021

go into areas, and they have been doing so in the past, mind you, but they will be able to go into areas that have been devastated by forest fires, they will be·able to go into areas that have been hurt by insects and so on, the spruce budworm, etc. While it does that Province-wide, we have to address that very serious problem and use all the resources that we can to promote the forestry and to promote the idea that we have to protect it and treat it with great respect.

So I have no problem with the amendment being made, but I have a great deal of concerns as related to the amendment and its affect on the forest industry Province-wide as related to silviculture programmes and related to things that need to be done to improve forest industry to make sure that in the future it is going to be a viable industry and that it will be dne that will be maintained by all concerned. I hope the minister takes these concerns under advisement and looks into them. I do not believe this forestry agreement has been as good as they would like us to think.

I am glad to see it, mind you, but they could have gotten a lot better one if they had pushed harder. It is unfortunate that we have to ' settle for less money from the federal government. I want the minister to commit himself to going after more funding or improved funding for silviculture work and other forest management work so that we can improve the situation in this Province.

Also there Stephenville mill there. going very are concerns with and the Abitibi-Price Things have been well but there are L2022 May 16, 1986 Vol XL concerns on the availability of wood supply and so on, and those concerns have to be addressed. I will be doing a great deal of analysis and research on the whole number of problems that exist there now. I want to · bring them · to the minister's attention as it is related to the Abitibi-Price mill in Stephenville, which has been doing very wen and I am very proud of it. Thank you, Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I want to have a few words on this Bill as well because it deals with a topic about which I . have had many concerns over the years. As I understand the Bill, it simply gives the particular company in question more flexibility with respect to the usage of its stumpage fees, and we certainly do not object to that.

The minister in explaining the Bill seemed to be suggesting that the restrictions of the present regulations under which the company is operating does not entitle them to spend any of the stumpage fees on what I call almost emergency situations in the event of insect infestation or in the event of a forest fire when the company would want to move quickly to ensure that the forest is regenerated and that programmes are put in place to made sure that the forest comes back as quickly as possible by the assistance of reforestation, silviculture and the like.

We see nothing in that particular measure that we would oppose. Indeed, we are all for giving more flexibility with respect to reforestation, No. 34 R2022

silviculture or whatever the particular procedure happens to be, or the particular activity happens to be to ensure that this Province has a continual supply of forests and forest related products to keep that most important industry moving. We certainly will give our support to this particular Bill, but we would like to, · Mr. Speaker, to expand the debate a little to include a more general and a more comprehensive reforestation programme, silviculture programme for the Province as a whole. I have a couple of questions that I would like for the minister to consider related to this matter.

I am wondering what kind of rapport, what kind of consultation goes on between the Department of Foresty and the . paper mill ·industry in general with respect to reforestation, with respect to silviculture and the like? I understand that it is a current policy of both the government and theo companies involved to immediately take care of the forests located close to the industry, the forests close to a particular mill.

Although one can see the logic in this I believe that we have to be a little more far-sighted and ensure that traditional areas where logging has taken place over a number of years are not neglected. Again, the logic that one hears is that it is obviously cheaper to reforest an area that is close to the mill, and cheaper to bring that raw product to the mill. But certainly we cannot be so shortsighted that we are going to neglect those areas that are a little further removed from the industry.

It seems to me there should be some gradual, systematic reforestation, a forest management programme and silviculture L2023 Kay 16, 1986 Vol XL programme, for those areas that are further removed from the actual site of the industry. from the mills in question. If we do that on a gradual and systematic basis, we are going to ensure that we have a wood supply for these mills for some time in the future.

But this shortsighted policy of only having reforestation programmes for those areas that are immediately close to the mill seems to me certainly to be not too intelligent, not too farsighted and I certainly hope that the minister, in addressing the bill, will direct his comments to that particular concern of mine, that we ensure that no potential forest area in this Province is neglected with respect to a sound forest managemen~ programme and a silviculture programme because we cannot afford to neg~ect any area of this . Province that shows any kind of potential for future development.

I would hope that the minister, when he speaks, will address that particular concern. I can make it a little more specific and refer to the area of Bonavista North, an area that, in the main, was used by the two major companies in the beginning, the AND Company, later Price (NFLD.) and now Abitibi-Price, and Bowaters. So these two companies in the first instance logged the area, the AND Company, later to become Abitibi, and Bowaters.

My question again to the minister is, with respect to these specific changes that we have had now with respect to Kruger, for example, taking over the Bowater operation, I am wondering what areas were given to them. Were they given all of the areas traditionally owned by the Bowater Company? If so, what obligations and what No. 34 R2023

responsibilities are on that particular company to ensure that lands that they have used and lands that are not now in use are just not left to be neglected? Because we have had a sorry history of neglect with respect to forest management. Mr. Speaker, 9ne does not want to dwell on the past. The only purpose of alluding to the past is to hope that we have learned some lessons and that we will not allow that kind of neglect to happen again inasmuch as we can avoid it. So, Mr.

Speaker, I just wonder how many areas there are in Newfoundland like Bonavista North, how many areas there are like that, where the companies operated for so many years, operated in a very successful and prosperous operation and, because of neglect, we now have no forest in these areas? If the forest is coming back it certainly needs some assistance from man, either in thinning or silviculture or whatever, to ensure that that forest comes back to its full potential. We just cannot leave it alone.

So I am wondering how many areas there might be like Bonavista !lorth, not given any inuneidate priority or any immediate attention because it is removed somewhat from the actual location of the pulp and paper mills. Bonavista !lorth is not that far. DR. COLLilJS: Would the hon. member permit a question? MR. LUSH: Sure. DR. COLLilJS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asked L2024 May 16, 1986 Vol XL if any other districts are like the great district of Bonavista lJorth. I am not going to imply that St. John's South is like Bonavista !lorth in that respect.

Hon. members may not know - well, I should not say that, I am sure many hon. members do know - that the Southside Hills at one time were covered with forests. How there is hardly a twig up there. MR. BARRY: They were called the Southside forests. DR. COLLilJS: Yes, that is right. The pine clad hills and all this sort of stuff. But the good citizens up on the Southside Hills want to see that reversed. I am glad to report that the hon. Minister of Forest Resources