Manitoba Hansard — 18 June 1971 (Sitting 82, 29th Legislature, 3rd Session)

29-3-82

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2::30 o'clock, Friday, June 18, 1971 MR. CHAIRMAN:. Resolution 94 -. (a) -- The Minister of Transportation. 1973 MR, BOROWSKI: Mr. Chairman, just before we were adjourned we were treated to a blatant attempt at muzzling and at closure iil this House, one thing I've never seen before and I'm shocked to see that the Opposition . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I would ask the Minister to direct his remarks to the specific resolution before us, What you are raising at the moment is a decision already render ed by the Chair. The Minister of Transportation. MR, BOROWSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I'll accept your ruling and I'll attempt to speak on that important issue at some other time. I believe I was referring to the Censorship Board and quoting some figures. When you look, Mr. Chairman, at the number of movies and trailers and advertising that comes before that Board to scrutinize, review and possibly cut or throw out completely, as they have I think on occasion before, one wonders how it can possibly be done when since January this year we've had only one person on that Censorship Board.

It seems to me that this is an area that the Minister and the government, and I expect the Opposition, should have considerable say on. This is one of the foundations of our society, and it's well.enough to be interested in parks and all the other things, but surely to heavens we should be concerned about what's happening and what's being shown in our theatres and sold in our book stores. Censorship is something that's accepted, we have it in this very House, Certain words are not allowed to be used.

I think that \\'11.S clearly evident here the other day when a member was expelled for using bad language and so he should have been. The fact is that rule should be used more often against both sides, particularly the Opposition because they're the worst offenders. · I notice, Mr. Chairman; that while they have a Censor Board, which I think is doing a bad job and they agree that they're doing a bad job, but even the few movies that they scrutinize tha."e is no way of them enforcing the.ir restrictions and the judgment they pass on �t.

It's al most like having speed laws and not having police around to enforce them, and that's the situa tion we have with the Censorship Board, where they stamp the three categories that we have in Manitoba, and of course the theatre manager wants to change something and of course he changes it and nobody knows about it because the public certainly doesn't know what the Censor ship Board did and the Censorship Board doesn't have time to go to the theatres and obviously they don't know whether their rulings are being complied with.

We have all had complaints from parents that there's 14 - 15 year old kids going into these theatres, watching the movies that are clearly classified as restricted. And there's a good reason for that. Obviously, the theatre manager is not going to be too concerned about who he lets in when he knows darn well there's nobody around to check on him and to police him and in the case of violations to bring him to court.

I briefly looked through the records and asked around since the recess to see when was the last time a theatre manager was fined for allowing juveniles in and no one seems to have a record of when this thing occurred, which I think gives you some indication of the slop py enforcement of the loose Act that we have. Of the total movies shown, I notice that 271 were in the Adult and Restricted category and only 132 General, which means kids can go in. The fact of the matter is, Mr. ChairmaJ1., that the majority of the moviegoers are not adults, they're kids and young people.

You know, it seems to me that people who make the movies, first of all what they make is their business pro vided it's in good taste, but it seems that they know in adv.ance that they can make these movies, dirty movies, and show them to kids because that is really where the market is. I think if the Censorship Board got after these you'd find more wholesome movies shown and less in the Restricted area, since adults are not the avid moviegoers that the kids are. I notice the censorship fees are $26, 198, 75 and licence fees are only $3, 785. 00.

It seems to me if we're going to do a serious job of censoring and policing, that perhaps the censorship fees and licence fees should be doubled to pay for extra staff to enforce the Act.

If we're not going to, let's throw the damn thing out and let's not make a mockery out of having some type of laws and regulations and allowing these people to break them with impunity, The garbage and peek-a-boo cellophane crap that's shown in these theatres - and I've seen one of them recently and I'm not going to name the name - I've had copies sent to me, translated and typed out and they have absolutely no redeeming value. -- (Interjection) -- I'm afraid there's no commission for the House so there's not much point in giving them promotion.

1974 June 18, 1971 (MR. BOROWSKI, cont'd.) . . . . . Mr. Chairman, d11ring the lunch hour I had an opportllility to look through the total report - and I've got a file that I keep on censorship and pornography which is getting rather weighty - and I took out certain items out of it that I would just like to read.

As you know, I have a bad memory, -- (Interjection) -- No, there will be nothing dirty and I would like to read some of my remarks, Lest one consider - and this is going back to the redeeming feature of movies - unless one considers wholesale acts of brutal mnrder or an under-the-cover look at the sordid world of explicit simulated sex acts and foul language, for a total massacre of decency and of human wholesomeness. All those sexploitation orgies are a disease of our times which I suggest, Mr. Chairman, we should attack with the same vigour as we attack cancer.

Dave Weston, the Executive Producer of ABC, had this comment to make, and they were dealing with censorship, As the members of the House are probably aware, President Johnson, one of his last acts before retiring was to set up a committee or a commission to investigate the effect of pornography on kids and adults. The report has since come out which has been I think rejected by President Nixon and most leaders in the United States, and Dave Weston_.

Producer of ABC, had this comment to make abont the effects of pornography and the effects in fact of broadcasters and I quote: "As a broadcaster and writer, I am very much aware of the powerful potential of radio and TV and of printed word" - and in that context he was discussing the very aspects of advertising as it affects the purchasing pnblic and also the effects of speech es made by leading citizens in the U.S., inclnding well-known announcers. -- (Interjection) - I don't have a quotation from Lawrence Welk at this time, I'll by-pass him.

But I think it's interesting to note -- oftentimes you will hear people say there isn't a single person that's been corrupted or had his mind changed by reading a dirty book. You know, if that's true, if that's true then the advertisers must be the biggest fools in the world because they spend hundreds of millions of dollars advertising their wares whether they're good or bad, and many of these advertisements, on television particularly because television is so expensive, are one-minute Ciips and in that one-minute clip they can convince an intelligent housewife to buy their product.

Now consider what effect that same television that's showing inhuman treatment of other human beings and perversion and dishonesty and all the rest of it, if shown for two hours, a steady diet for two hours which is what you have in theatres - and of course on television I believe the average viewing time of children in North America is anywhere from five to seven hours - consider the effect it must have on that pliable mind watching that garbage.

So to those who say that advertising or reading bad llteratnre has no effect, you know, I say nonsense, I think you just have to look at the election, the money that's poured into radio and television advertising during an election. If we really believe that advertising has no effect, that the printed word or the spoken word or the visual word - if I may 11Se that expression - has no effect, then all the politicians and all the parties are wasting their money at election time trying to get their message and their promises across.

"Many researchers have found that ex posure to violence glorified and rewarded dishonesty; pornography acts as a catalyst towards misconduct in youth and adults" - and this is a quote I believe from the same

article I was just quoting a minute ago. Recently a magazine -- (Interjection) -- Sorry, there's no pictnres. 11A Clinical Look Taken at Real Violence on Television" - and this is a Washington report, I don't unfortunately have the date but it's clipped out of one of the local papers and I had clipped it 011t becanse it clearly shows beyond the shadow of a doubt the effect on children and other people watching violence. "Violence on television encourages violence in real life, the National Commission on Violence said today.

It accused the television industry of pandering to a public preoccupation with violence that television itself has helped to create. It is reasonable to conclude, the com mission said, that a constant diet of violent behaviour on television has an adverse effect on human characters and attitude. Violence on television encourages violent forms of behaviour and fosters moral and social values about violence in daily life which are unacceptable in a civilized society.

"The commission said the .industry's self-imposed standards are inadequate and recom mended abandonment of children's cartoons containing serious non-comic violence; less time devoted to crime, western and action adventure programs containing violent episodes; a change in the basic context in which violence occurs in such programs, so as to resort to violence as depicted in an unusual and undesirable outcome instead of the norm." Mr. Chairman, I must

Ju ne 18, 1971 1975 (MR. BOROWSKI, cont'd. ). . . . • protest the backbenchers sending me dirty literature up front here.

"Moreover, industry researchlnto effects on violent TV programs, · although mean while enough is !mown to make inexcusable any delay in taking action along the lines we are recommending. · 11The commission also recommended presidential and congressional support and financing for a corporation for public broadcasting so it may develop the kind of 'educational, cultural· and dramatic programming not presently provided in sufficient measure by commerciai 'broad- casting. · · · · "The National Commission on the Causes and Preventio n cif Violence, headed by Dr. Milton S.

Eisenhower, was formed by former President Johnson in 1968 after the assassination of President F. Kennedy. It is publishing a series of reports on various aspects of violence in American life. The report on television violence focused primarily on its· effects on the young. Television is one of our significant national resources, it said, but our greatest resource is · our children. Children begin to absorb the lessons of television before they can read or write.

In a fundamental way, television helps to create what children expect of themselves and others and of what constitutes the standards of civilized society, yet we daily permit our children dur ing their formative years to enter a world of police interrogations, of gangsters beating enem ies, of spies performing fatal brain surgery, and of routine demonstrations of all kl.Ilda of kil lings and maimings.

It added, television entertainment based on violence may be effective · merchandising but it is an appalling way to serve a civilization, an appalling way tO serve the_ requirements of the law that broadcasting serve the public interest. "Convenience and Necessity. The recent hopeful trend towards less violent programs is a hopeful sign that the nation's broadcasters share this view. In mitigation of its criticism, the report said three major television networks have effected substantial improve:ihents in the cartoon programs offered this season." And it noted that networks 1969-70 program

schedule seems to indicate the beginning of a favourable trend along the lines recommended her!l, one I certainly haven't been able to discern the little television I watch. The commission goes on: "Some of the commission's findtilgs. " Children and adolescents are the heaviest viewers of television, with some children in the lower income families watching their sets five to seven hours each weekday. Children's cartoons concentrated on Saturday morning almost all contained violence. In 1967-68 surveys the rate of violent episodes was quite high in both years, more than 20 per hour.

Those who commit acts of violence more often perceive them to be in their self-interest than in the service of some other cause. Nearly half of all the leading characters who kill, and more than half of all leading characters who are violent, achieve a clearly happy ending in the program. To this extent violence ls portrayed as a successful means of attaining a desire goal. " · Mr. Chairman, I have one other

article I'd like to quote from and that's the· August 28th, 1970, issue of Life, and it's entitled "Across the Country a Torrent of SexUa.lity Stirs up a Growing Concern, " and the headline is "Pornography Goes Public".

Again it takes a clinical look at what's happening in our society and I quote: "We've done it at last, we have succeeded in super-saturating our frazzled poor selves in the sex of fNery kind and variety on our screens, in our book stores, clogging our mails and our minds now as every conceivable manner of biological union, heterosexual, homosexual, monosexual" - whatever that ls""' "and for the truly jaded a whole zoological garden of bestiality. "Behind this torrent of erotic are some opportunistic businessmen in the U. S; and abroad, some of them backed by money from organized crime.

They keep a watchful eye on the shifting taste of the customers, and with good reason for it's a one billion a year low overhead business where profit margins run up to 10, OOO percent." Nice business. "Watching them is a whole host of largely baffled governmental officials, local, state and national, who can stay informed about what's new on their beat let alone control it. Simply pinpointing what constitutes porno graphy and what does not, ls every bit as difficult as ascertaining what is and ls not legal.

The grand seignior of dirty old man, novelist Henry Miler, has said" -- Miller? -- I hope he's not related to our Minister of Education -- "has said that to discuss the nature and meaning of obscenity ls almost as difficult as to talk about God. Many people would nonetheless agree with Supreme Court Justice Porter Stewart who declared that he knew it when he saw it. ". Well, Mr. Speaker, I think that a lot of people in this room can make that same statement; when we see something dirty we know it.

I'm certain that the Member for Lakeside !mows a dirty movie or a book when he sees it, as do the majority of the members, if indeed not all the members in

1976 June 18, 1971 (MR. BOROWSKI, cont'd.) .. .. . this House. I don't think that we as a legislative body should allow an ill-informed, often confused and a psychologically perverted minority to force their filth and smut on us. Mr. Chairman, I'm really worried when the Opposition starts applauding me; I'm worried if I'm saying something wrong. I don't expect any applause from the professor from - what's the constituency? Crescentwood.

I don•t expect any applause because I got a sneaking suspicion that he thinks that that stuffls all right. -- (Interjection) -- Well, there are always minorities who say that we have no right to set standards and impose our values. Well, I say that's non sense, and may I once- more quote from the same Abe Weston of ABC: "A free government should be freely subject to criticism by its people, and the government has the right to criticize trends in private life just as freely and to set standards." And to those who say we have no right to set standards, I say nonsense. We allow our judges to set standards.

Every time a judge sentences a person - and we had a case here I think in the last two weeks where there was a fine and an imposition of a jail sentence. Surely to heavens we, as legislators, who make the laws for the judges to ponder over, have an equal right to set standards in our society and as a matter of fact we have been doing it.

The fact that you have censorship in the various forms and the various media today, I think indicates that society indeed accepts censorship and expects censorship from their elected officials, and I don't think that we're so morally wrecked that we can't in this Chamber agree on some standard, decent standard, to set for the police to enforce, make the job of the police easier, and for the judges, so that it would be much more clear exactly what is pornography and obscenity and what is not. For years, Mr.

Chairman, (and I'm reading my scribbling here again), for years we have followed urgings of the self-appointed do-g0oders and the result I think is clear if you look out in the park here just out front of the Legislature, at the lazy malcontents, which is the undis ciplined products of our permissive universities, colleges and dirty diet of theatre and TV; and many of these malcontents that were brought up under this permissive society are now in the process in some cases - George Williams University is one example, and almost every university in the United States - they're destroying the very institutions that have taught them this permissive nonsense, and I think that is what you might call poetic justice; that they're turning back on their tutors. -- (Interjection) -- Well, it's a good thing I'm on my last page, Mr.

Chairman. I hope you'll allow me to finish. Along with this sexploitation and pornographic revolution, we have a parallel explosion of skyrocketing venereal disease, unprecedented divorce, broken homes, unwanted pregnan cies, forcible rape, sex crimes, child neglect and child killing abortion, and I think, Mr. Chairman, it's fair to say that the pendulum has now swung to the opposite and I think it's time that all of us in our society, particularly those that have been elected, to set some stand ards, take a long look at this and put the brakes on this bare bum morality in which we are living now.

And may I just quote - my last quote, Mr. Chairman; 11Although the Biblical moral code clearly does not support the Victorian morality, or as some would call it 'Victorian ankle length prudery, 1 neither does it condemn the so-called new morality. In the Bible there's an ancient historical narrative reaching back 2, OOO years before Christ. It involves an ancient city famed the world over for its sexual freedom, its total devotion to sexuality, sensuality and debauchery. This was ancient Sodom which has given its name to unmentionable sexual practices.

Sodom, the historical narrative of Genesis relates, was a bustling metropolis like Los Angeles no doubt. Prosperous, wealthy, enjoying the good life, it was filled with ad vocates of the new morality which we see so much of today. According to the narrative, this ancient city was suddenly overthrown, destroyed by a catastrophic upheaval. Sexual freedoms immorality, pornography and obscenity are not the solution to the sex hang-ups of the Victorian era.

The only solution is the right morality based on a tried and tested principle, a standard with no kick-backs, a standard that will not boomerang on our children." Mr. Chairman, I urge on all members elected to this House that they come up with some decent standards which we can pass along to our children. Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed, may I remind honourable members and for the benefit of those members who were not in the House, the Minister of Transportation was not speaking qua Minister of Transportation but as a member of this House, and as the member pointed out, this was his only opportunity to have his views on censorship placed before the

June 18, 1971 1977 (MR. CHAIRMAN, cont'd.) . . . . . Legislature. While the Chair is cognizant that it is un usual for one Minister to comment on another Ministeris operations, he was exercising his rights under· the rules of this House. The Member for Lakeside. · MR . HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Well, Mr. Ch airID.iin, I'm tempted to say that "Verily I say unto you that wickedness and sins are ... MR . CHAIRMAN: May I interrupt the member? MR . ENNS: . . . of Manitoba, if but we let the Minister of Transportation . " INTROD UCTION OF GUESTS MR . CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

I'm sorry to interrupt.the member, but I was remiss in not introducing some students. May I direct the attention of the honourable members fo the gallery, where we have 28 students of Grade 6 standing from the Ste. Rose elementary school. The students are under the direction of Mr. Molgat, and this school is lOcated in the constituency of the Member for Ste. Rose. · I woilld also direct your attention, we have 40 students of Grade 8 standing from Fort· Francis, Ontario under the direction of Mr. and Mrs. Farford, Mr. DeVos and Miss La Roque. These students are the guests of the Honourable Mr. Speaker.

On behalf of all members, I welcome you to the Legislative Assembly. As I say, I regret interrupting the Member. The Member for Lakeside, COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Cont'd.) MR . ENNS: No apologies necessary, Mr. Chairman, I wonder now if we could have the response from the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. BURTNIAK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, first of all I want to thank so kindly the Honour able Member for Lakeside who invited me for a response. ·-- (Interjection) -- I'm aware of that; I'm aware of that very well; although when the Honourable Member for Lakeside rose to his feet I was expecting that he was going to make some comments· on the Department of Tour ism and Recreation rather than invite me for comments. However . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

I woilld ask all honourable members to direct their remarks to the Chair, and I would ask all honourable members, whether on one side of the House or the other, and especially those people who are in close proximity to the speaker, to restrain themselves in making extemporaneous remarks. While it may seem humorous at the time that they're being made, it leads to nothing but chaos. The Minister. MR. BURTNIAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I think that I should perhaps deal with some of the speakers that spoke earlier today before I go into the Censorship Board.

I would like, first of all, to deal with some of the points that were made by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, and as a matter of fact I might say, Mr. Chairman, that some of the other honourable members who had spoken this morning also made reference, along with the Member for Assiniboia, that they were quite alarmed at the fact that, when they looked at our Estimates, that what they saw was somewhat of a reduction in this year's Estimates in compar ison to last year, and I want to say at this time, Mr.

Chairman, that although it shows in our books that there has been somewhat of a reduction there, nevertheless I want to point out so that there will be no minunderstandi ng by the members in the House, that we have had an in crease over and above what you see printed in the Estimate Book, something in the neighbor hood of $2-1/2 million additional amounts of money which was taken out of capital funds to promote the various Winter Works ' programs which we instituted last year.

So that when you add the total in your Estimate Book as well as the $2-1/2 million, or almost $2-1/2 million, it comes to something like over $9-3/4 million that we have in this particular department for thi� year. But I'm not that particularly worried, really, as far as the amounts are concerned. I think that anyone, Mr. Chairman, can do a lot of things with unlimited amount of funds.

I would be a fool not to take all I can get, or any Minister, any department can say the same thing, but I think that it shows - and I don't wish to say that other departments·are not efficient - but I feel that we have done a very efficient job in this department because, as I say, although we haven't had unlimlted funds, we've had extra funds provided for both capital works or capital funds for our capital works' program; which is over and above what you see as printed in the Estimate Book.

I think that we're quite proud of the fact that we have done an awful lot of things in the last two years since I have been in this department with the funds that we have had

1978 June 18, 1971 (MR. BURTNIAK, cont'd.) ..... available to us. Insofar as the Honourable Member for Assiniboia suggested about the second national park, I of course have had a number of meetings, as I have stated in this House, on several occasions in the last year and a half or two, that we have been working very closely with the Federal Government in trying to get to some sort of an agreement whereby we can possibly establish a second national park in the Province of Manitoba, and there has been a great deal of studies that have taken place and are continuing to take place.

However, there are certain things that we have to be careful of; I don•t think that any of the honourable members in this House would want us to go ahead and say, "Well, you take any part of the province that you want," to the Federal Government, "and establish a second national park." I think, after all, we want to be careful; that we have to take a good study of the fact in regards to our mineral rights, timber rights and all our natural resources. We don't want to sign them away.

We want to make sure that when we do establish a second national park that we will know exactly what we've got and eractly what we•re giving away. I also would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that apparently as far as the Feder.al Government is concerned in respect to national parks, there s�ems to be a bit of a difference as to where you are situated in this country, because I do know, Mr. Chairman, that in certain provinces in eastern Canada that certain exemptions, shall I say, were given to these provinces that we cannot seem to be able to get here in Manitoba.

They seem to want larger parks here in Mani toba, more square miles of park, and spend less money in comparison to say, some of the parks in the province, particularly in the Province of Quebec. And these are the kind of things, these are the kind of discussions that are taking place at the present time. And we do have, I might say, Mr.

Chairman, to the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, we do have a committee which was appointed about a year ago or so, a provincial committee as well as a federal commit tee from both our department and the Department of Mines and Resources as well as the federal people, to work out this type of a program, and I can assure the honourable member that as soon as there is some agreement, and I hope that it will be in the near future, that we will be getting a second national park in the Province of Manitoba, but not only on the say-so of the Federal Government, it'll be more or less up to us to decide so we would know exactly what we're giving away in return.

MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill. MR , GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): While the Minister is on the parks, I wonder if he could advise us how many square miles or how many acres the Federal Government would wish to have to form a park. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad the Honourable Member for Churchill brought up this question.

We are talking, I believe, - I'm just quoting off the top of my head; I'll have to check this out - but I believe that they were talking something in the neighborhood of 2, OOO square miles or something of that nature - or 200; I'm not sure whether it's 2, OOO or 200; but anyway it is a pretty big area, and we do know that there are certain parks that have been agreed to, as I said before, in eastern Canada which are much smaller than that; and we have been talking about a possibility of a core area somewhere, perhaps a hundred square miles in the Province of Manitoba, which we can agree to I am sure, but apparently it isn•t to the liking of the Federal GQvernment who want to make it much bigger than that; and these are the kind of negotiations that are taking place and have been taking place for quite some time.

As I said before, as far as our total estimates are concerned, we do have two million five or thereabouts over and above what is shown in the Estimate Book for capital works' pro gram; and we have a great number of extra jobs as a result of this particular program. We've gone ahead much faster on some of the programs that we have accepted under this particular program that might have taken maybe several years to accomplish. We've advanced these be cause of the extra money that we have received for this purpose.

I'm sorry to see that the Honourable Member for Emerson is not in his seat, but I would like to thank him for his comments in saying that I was such a very nice fellow and all that, but then he said perhaps the nice fellows don't get everything that they ought to get.

I want to assure the Honourable Member for Emerson, although he is not in his seat but I'm sure he's going to read this in Hansard, that as far as I'm concerned insofar as the Gardenton Museum, and I don't wish to go into this political hassle and to accuse the previous government of what they did or what they did not do, but I want to assure you, Mr. Chairman, and the Honourable Member for Emerson. that it was because of the previous administration that the Gardenton

June 18, 1971 1979 (MR. BURTNIAK, cont'd.) ..... Museum found itself in the kind of position that it did, and we had to come along and bail them out, and now this is, it•s now in good financial position. I want to assure, this has been a fact because never before had this Gatdenton Museum received any grants from the Provincial Government in the past until we came into this office.

So I want to point this out to the Honourable Member for Emerson, regardless - and I want to point out, too - that this is regardless; I don't care whether it's Ukminian, German, French, Scotch, Irish, whatever it is, we want to be fair with all our ethnic groups and just because, as he point ed out this morning, that he thought that they were going to get a lot of extra money because I happened to be of Ukrainian ancestry and this Gatdenton area is predominately Ukrainian, that to me makes no difference, I think we want to treat everybody the same and 'as long as I'm Minister of this department I will treat everybody the sam� regardless of what ancestry they come from.

The Honourable Member for Fort Garry was speaking about our professional sport and he was wondering whether or not I was aware of how much I kneW about the possibility Of builBing a dome over the facility we have at the Winnipeg enterprises. I can assure you, Mr: Chairman, that I have had quite a bit of discussion with various people on this particular project. I don't think that anybody expects this government or any government to go in on this kind of program either today, tomorrow or next year - it might take several years, because it is a big project.

But, to the best of my knowledge, I don't think that the government as such has ever been RP" proached by anyone or there has ever been any discussion as far as all of the government is concerned, but I've had some discussion with the interested people on this and perhaps this is something that we should be looking into some time in the future, but certainly not within the next year or so and I think that honourable members will agree wlth that. But I also want to point out to the honourable members, Mr.

Chairman, that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry was talking about the great influx of tourists that would come into the province of Mani toba if we were to promote more professional sport. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that I am not completely disagreeing with them; I think that there is a point there, but I don't think that as a government, i don't think that we have t.o promote, as a government I say, promote professional sport.

I think that as far as this depart ment is concerned, it is more the responsibility of this department to help and promote and develop amateur sports in the Province of Manitoba, all across the Province of Manitoba, so that eventually, whether it be pee wee, juvenile, midget or what have you� junior, they can work their way up and become good professional athletes: but I don't think we have to spend.all our money in promoting professional sport and forgetting a:hout our amateurs. This is our duty, I think, as government to promote this kind of thing.

And furthermore, I don't think that as far as the government is concerned - this surprises me to hear this kind of talk from the Opposi tion benches - say why can't government do this, why can•t government do that, 'and then an of a sudden I can just envisage what would happen if this were to be the case - then they would come back and say well those dirty Socialists, they're taking everything over. You know this is the kind of thing that we have been accustomed to for the last two years.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't promote these kind of things but as far as a government is concerned I don't think we should get involved to any great extent; perhaps in some minor way as far as professional sport is concerned but not to the extent that we have been hearing here today and yesterday. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia also - it seems to be his regular topic, in regard to the T-bar at Falcon Lake, I recall very well his remarks last year and again he tOuched on this this morning, and I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that we have looked at this possibility as far as the T-bar at Falcon Lake is concerned for the skiiilg enthusiasts; but firsfof all I want to say this, Mr. Chairman, that I think that our first priority for the Falcon Lake slopes is to install snow-making equipment, snow-making equipment first - because to inst8.ll a T-bar is a fairly expensive thing and if you are not going to have sufficient amounts of snow then I'm just wondering whether this is feasible.

So these are the kind of things that we have to look into first before we can say well sure we can put a T-bar in Falcon Lake, we can put a T-bar in any ski resort, but is it feasible; and therefore I say that some of these other things have to be looked into first before we can proceed with that kind of a venture as the Honourable Member for Assiniboia suggests. The Honourable Member for Rhineland was talking about certain grants, the sunflower festival. and the likes. I would like to point out to the honourable member that we do give out grants which we established - what we call a Festival.

Grants Program last year, which goes

1980 June 18, 1971 (MR. BURTNIAK, cont'd.) ..... up to $2, 500 if it's a three day event and as far as I know, the Altona Sunflower Festival is included in that particular grant.

Insofar as the Churchill Excursions and so on - I think he mentioned something about that - we did take a good close look at the Churchill possibility as a tourist attraction centre, but as you know, there has been a certain amount of funds that have been committed, I believe, by the Federal Government to develop this kind of a thing in Churchill and we are looking at the possibility of opening up some tourist centre right within the complex, whenever that will come about.

So we are not forgetting these things I can assure the Honourable Member for Rhineland - we are looking at all these possibilities and we are doing everything we possibly can to do so. The Minister without Portfolio had a couple of quest.ions that he posed to me this morning insofar as advertising is concerned. I would like to inform him that we use various media that we can insofar as magazines are concerned. If it is insofar as our Canadian market he is con cerned, we try to use the Canadian magazines, but if we want to reach other areas of United States therefore we have to go elsewhere.

It's only as simple as that. I agree with him 100 percent when he is talking. about the possibility of establishing more tennis courts. I know that as he pointed out that golfing is perhaps a bit of a more expensive sport than tennis maybe; but nevertheless, tennis courts is something that we will have to take a good close look at. I might say to the Minister without Portfolio that tennis courts are a part of our sports facilities included in our park development plans and we do have certain tennis courts in the Falcon Lake area.

Now maybe we should have a closer look at the whole picture in various other areas and various other parts be they outside of Winnipeg or within the City of Winnipeg. This I am not objecting to, I think this is the kind of a sport that perhaps more young people participate in and this is something that we perhaps should look into. I don't know whether or not I should enlarge any more on the Censor Board. I made a few comments this morning on it and I would like to just perhaps say, Mr.

Chairman, that in sofar as the Censor Board is concerned, and I maybe sound repetitious, but nevertheless, as I said this morning we have received an enormous amount of literature, letters from the interest ed people on this particular question, We have had an enormous number of phone calls; w� have had a number of delegations come to see us and I think that as a result we have a pretty good idea as to what we ought to do insofar as the censoring of film is concerned and I would expect, Mr. Chairman, that within the next two weeks or so we will have an announcement to make in that respect. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 94 (a) (1). The Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Chairman, I listened, I think fairly care fully this morning at the outset of this debate on the estimates to the Minister's explanations and answers to questions and I think I missed or perhaps he didn't comment on the problems which were mentioned last night about the National Park which we now have.

There has been some eonsiderable comment today about the need for a second National ·park and I would sup port this as a project for the future, but before we get too involved in that perhaps we should clear up some of the problems which are now developing with respect to the National Park which we aow have - Riding Mountain National Park .. As I mentioned last night, it appears to me that the Federal Government is attempting to make a wildlife . sanctuary out of a park which has been the second most popular tourist attraction in Canada, in terms of National Parks.

I was anxious to hear some revelation from the Minister on the position which.the provincial department ls taking in the events which are taking place in Riding Mountain National Park. I think that I am on record as favouring wildlife sanctuaries in Manitoba, I think this is an excellent project, but certainly not in an area that has already proven itself to be such an attraction for people.

It already contains the largest herd of elk on the North American Continent I believe and to my knowledge there have been no complaints from the elk, they are doing very well and their numbers are having to be controlled from time to time, but it would appear that the elk herd has a better lobby at Ottawa than the people do, because they are cer tainly - their rights and privileges are beingmore carefully preserved perhaps than those that are producing the revenue for Manitoba.

I think it's significant to recall that on the cairn at Riding Mountain National Park that was placed there on the dedication, about the year 1930 I think, there is a plaque which says "This Park is dedicated to the people of Western Manitoba." Somewhere along the line the dedication has been lost sight of and we are now in the process of transferring the park to some other interest. I think this is a most important subject, Mr. Chairman, and I hope that the Minister will

June 18, 1971 1981 (MR. McGILL, cont1d. ) . • • . . comment, thilt he will tell us what he ls doing to. protect this as a tourist attraction. If I have missed his comment then I apologize, but I think that l hilve paid reasonably close attention and. aside from lhe interruptions on procedural problems .that have occurred, I think I hilve heard most of his remarks. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I can assure you thilt I won't take very long.

There ls something though that I would like to get an answer on - I think that the House should get an answer and I think this should be publicized. It might be, mind you, that the Minister answered this question, because it was a question asked yesterday. I'm referring to the. difficulty that the tourists have in finding a parking spot here in front of the building.

This was brought up by the Honourable Member for Morris yesterday and I have heard complaints about this also and now thilt we have both Ministers, the Minister of Transportation l think who ls responsible · for this, I think that we should have some kind of an answer, some explanation because it ls something that should not be al.towed to keep on going like this, where you have an information bureau, the large one who is doing quite well here in the Building., we definitely should provide parking faclllties at least for the tourists and I wonder if we could have some indication of whilt ls being done. (Interjection - Underground parking.) Underground parking - I'm sure under ground parking won•t come in at this time and I think this is needed right now immediately.

MR. CHAIRMAN: 94 (a)

(1) The Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just before you proceed and before the Minister replies, . perhilps at this time it would be as good a time as any to request the Minister to gl.ve us some indication as to what the government is doing with respect to the Get-together 171 Festival - what the plans are. There is a disturbing report in today's paper that seems to indicate that the group ls in some difficulty and in fact, the festival may face cancellation.

I think I don•t have to elaborate on the festival itself - it met with, I think, a pretty all round resounding success but rathermor ei mportant even than the actual success of the festival - I shouldn•t say more important, but certainly as important - is thilt it employs and it is really a student effort with very few adult help.

I understand that upwards to 90 percent of those that are engaged in the production of the festival are students and I think at a time when we have concerned ourselves daily with the problems of student employment that certainly for that reason, along with any other reason, the government would be remiss if it were allowed to be cancelled because of lack of support. My understanding is the government has made a commitment of a similar nature to what it did last year.

The festival organizers havefadicated to me and to all members of the House I think there are somewhat additional difficulties they face this year in putting on this program, that last year being centennial year it was not too difficult to arouse the kind of voluntary dona tions, additional help, to make this such a successful venture. I think it was agreed by most that it would be a most worthwhile thing to continue.

We seem to have the willing organizers who want this festival to continue and to be FJuccessful and I would urge the government,- particu larly the Minister in the Department of Tourism and Recreation, Culture, to take most serious ly the situation that the group finds themselves in at this particular time. If the Minister can indicate to us in any posltive way that the festival will be in a position to continue then I think that would be a service that the organizers and the people of Manitoba would look forward to. Thank you, Mr. Chairman . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Radisson. MR.

HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): Mr. Chairman, I just hilve a few comments to make in regard to the Minister's department. One of the questions, I would like to flndoout whether there are any plans within the department and the provincial parks to provide for baseball games. A lot of families come out and lt1s generally a family get-together and they look for areas to play ball. There is enough space provided for cars but very seldom can you flnd adequate area to play a scrub game of baseball.

I know I hilve had this brought to my attention thilt in the Childs Lake area in the Duck Mountain, this was one of the complaints that thiiv do not flnd adequate space. When families get out on Sunday they generally want to go out and play a little ball and this ls one of the things that ls lacking. Another thing that I would wonder if it's possible to make a study on providing parka, provincial parks right within the city.

It seems to me that within the communities, I know in my own community there's a fairly large area which ls sort of barren land,it's full of potholes and could be very easily developed to provide a type of picnic area within -easy reach of people

1982 June 18, 1971 (MR. SHAFRANSKY, cont'd.) . . . . . in the city who do not have cars. Most of the parks that are being built are built for people who can travel but there are thousnads of families that live in the cities and cannot get out and I think this is something that I'd like to see a study made to see if it is feasible in the co=unities to provide small, possibly overnight camping areas for families that have no means of getting out of the city. ·MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sourls-Klllarney. MR. EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr.

Chairman, yesterday when I was speak ing I asked the Minister about the Peace Garden grant and I didn't get an answer yet from him on that and I was just wondering -- this spring I had quite a bit of correspondence regarding Lower Fort Garry. I realize that's a federal park but he mentioned that they're going to elimin ate the changing of the guard. Now I donlt know here what has happened, but has anything hap pened about that? Has the Federal Government changed their plans again or what's taking place out there? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I don't know, maybe I was out of the House when you answered your questions, Mr. Minister, but I didn't hear anything when I came back in about the marking of the highway and cairns to mark the postage stamp boundary. Did you bring that up? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, I've got two items I wanted to discuss under the Minister's Estimates. First is the item which has been referred to primarily by the Minister of Highways, namely censorship.

I took exception to his co=ents this morning primarily because I felt that although every member of the House has the privilege of discussing items that are of partic ular interest to his constituents I felt that .. . MR. CHAIBMAN: Order, please. MR. CRAIK: Fine. Well I would like to discuss -- Are you talking to me? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. As I pointed out to the Minister when he started to make refer ence to the decision of the Chair in that regard and I would ask the honourable member to restrict himself to the point before him. MR. CRAIK: I shall refer to the report, Mr.

Chairman, of the Manitoba Censorship Review Board. It appears that of the board of five that actually sat on this that the five were unanimous in supporting the ratings of films, that is an evaluation system whereby they would be able to mark them to indicate whether they were for general consumption or adult or restrict ed and then three categories of restriction which would appear to actually improve the method of indicating the films, and since most of the concern of the Censorship Board is with films shown in theatres then the rating system would be most effective in that area.

The second area which is censorship itself is recognized as being a difficult area to handle because as has been found in the past - the legislation for this is very explicit as I think both of the Ministers that have spoken on this are aware, it's on the books and all it takes is the imposition of the legislation by the Minister in charge and it covers all of the major things that have been discussed, If I might just refer to it or quote from it!

"The Censor Board may re fuse to approve any film or slides depkting scenes of an immoral or obscene nature or which indicate or suggest lewdness or indecency or marital infidelity, or showing the details of mur der, robbery, criminal assault or depicting criminals as heroic characters, and the Censor Board shall refuse to approve any other picture that it may consider injurious to public morals, suggestive of evil to the minds of children or against the public welfare." It's a pretty wide ranging statement that empowers the government under existing legislation without any changes to enforce this legislation and very strict control over films in the province.

So basically what we're faced with is whether or not the government is going to make a decision to enforce that legislation.

We have in the past had leniency granted I think primarily because the Censor ship Board and probably the government too were assessing the public mood which was one of - for a while I think the public mood was one of leniency towards allowing the freedom in films to see if they were a temporary development in the total spectrum of films and whether the - what they call the sexploitation films and the violent films would in fact pass out of the scene and we'd get back into something more normal.

Indications are that lately there are some of the more general films coming back but there's no strong evidence of it. Now paralleling this there is the Criminal Code which also on a federal basis, on a national basis, could be invoked to control. I think probably the question we should maybe be

June 18 , 1971 1983 (MR, CRAIK, cont'd. ) . isolating is whether we should be attempting to do it on a pro- vincial basis or whether there is more justification for a nationl!.l code to cover the whole of Canada. But as the report points out, there are inherent diffiqulties in trying to get national agreement and there's recommendations here that some refinements be made to the federal code.

On the point of censorship the committee of five split three-two, three said no censorship and the other two on here outlined at great length and I think probably it displays an awful lot of thought that has been put into it by them. I think that. the .two that favoured censorship have made a pretty strong case in here and that probably their side being better documented certainly can't help but convince the reader of it that more adequate censorship laws are required. I think I like many others have been getting some mail on this. What I have received on it I think is two letters. One was for and one's against.

I assume that if I got five letters that they would split the same as . .the committee, that. there would be probably three against censorship and two for it. So you can pretty well toss a coin which way you want to go on it in terms of public opinion. If I can judge it properly now the public is getting a bit concerned about the leniency that has existed in films and possibly the setup here on the Review Board as an appeal board is a pretty good suggestion.

The problem with any of the suggestions is that if you•re going to give publicity to the film if and when it was passed, then it•s likely you're guaranteeing a much larger audience than if nothing had been said at all. So it's a dilemma and we. recognize it but the feeling seems to be that more censorship is actually a good thing at this time. The other topic, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to discuss was the provision for recreational facilities for power toboggans in the wintertime.

There's difficulty every winter of course be cause of the abuses of power toboggans and I think that it' s time that more positive steps were taken to provide more facilities for the use of power toboggans rather than trying to restrict their application with the provisions we now have for this type of recreation, We have a few facilities developing in the vicinity of the populated areas where people can go and can enjoy this type of sport, but one of the problems is the lack of facilities.

I think that if the govern ment were to move-to take now some of our wilderness areas where there are some abuses going on but to restrict the abuse to confined areas that we would be able to solve two problems at once. One is the abuses that are occurring in populated areas and the second is the lack, real lack of recreational facilities for people in this part of the country in the wintertime. There have been suggestions, as the Minister is well aware, from the Travel and Conven tion Association which has drawn up a plan for the development of some areas and asked the government to support them in it.

And it sounded like a very reasonable plan. One of the plans that has worked out in Quebec where you have one of the large manufacturers, prQbably the world's largest manufacturer of power toboggans, is a joint venture type of project where areas are set up with good power tobogganing facilities, restricted areas, where people can get plERSure from this recreation and also not abuse the rights of another persons environment and this is the real problem we're facing. I think if there is a solution to the problem I don't think that action has been taken yet by the government to solve it.

And with the many areas we have in Manitoba within near reach of the urban areas, whether it's Winnipeg or Brandon or Thompson where you probably find the majority of thepower toboggans and where you have the majority of the problems, that with the areas th�t are within near reach of these major centres that to designate areas well marked with interestingt:raiJ.s for them to follow and where you could have an assessment of the environment damage prior to doing so to make sure _that you're not picking an area where they're concentrations of wildlife, then.

I think that we could serve a very real purpose in providing recreational opportunity for many many Manitobans that avail themselves of this sport and also solve a very real problem which is the threat to the environ ment of those people now who do not wish to take up the sport. MR, CHAIRMAN: The Member for Osborne. MR, TURNBUL L: Mr. Chairman, the Estimates of the Minister of Tourism and Recre ation have obviously brought many members to their feet and I would think that this in itself is an indication of the growing interest in recreation felt in the Province of Manitoba.

I feel that the Minister and his staff have made good use of what I am sure is a rather short supply of provincial funds and I must congratulate him on that. There are a number of points I feel that perhaps could be presented to him at this time. The first I think must relate to an issue which can be very contentious in Manitoba, and that issue of course is the one of censorship. We've had a number of speeches made in the House

1984 June 18 , 1971 (MR. TURNBULL cont' d.) .in the last couple of days putting forward a point of view which I can only identify as being a very specific point of view , a point of view representing what may well be a minority interest.

I think that members of this House should keep in mind that morality is a function of private conscience or a function of religion and I think that keeping that in mind one must exclude the state from, as it has been said, the bedrooms of the nation. 'l'hat means merely that the state has no -- in my mind anyway -- no right to legislate morality. 'l'hat does not mean that obscene o.r pornographic material should be distributed and sold in the Province of Manitoba. I have had occasion to inquire of the Attorney-General's Department and of the morality

section of the Winnipeg Police Department about the procedure undertaken by government officials and police officials when presecuting under the Criminal Code.

Section 151 (

a) of the Criminal Code, as I recall, provides ample scope for the police officials and for the prosecutors in the Attorney-General's Department to take action against those who sell obscene or pornographic literature in the Province of Manitoba and I would really think that if a matter is obscene and it's purely obscene that there is ample scope in the existing Criminal Code for prosecutions to be undertaken. That, Mr. Chairman, is really all that I would like to contribute at this time to the question of censorship.

I really don't think it's a matter that we should presently debate in this House - unless of course, we have legislation introduced to set up some kind of censorship which may be more adequate in the eyes of some, may be detrimental to the public interest in the eyes of others. I think, too, Mr. Speaker, that there are matters of recreation that I feel obligated to raise for the consideration of the Minister at this time, matters that I' ve raised with him before.

I think these can best be summed up in asking him to give greater attention than he has already given to the development of the natural resources that we have for recreational use in the Province of Manitoba. I refer here to the natural lakes that we have in thi s province. There are two -- well let's limit it to one. There is one lake that I think could really be developed to a much greater extent for small boat use and for such things as fishing and swim ming, but it's really my interest now to mention Lake Winnipeg as a lake that could be more adequately developed for use by small boats.

I know that the Provincial Government is presently undertaking a development of the Hecla Island area. Thqt area is one in which I have sailed a small boat and I hope to sail there again in the very near future. It is an area that is most suitable to use by small craft - I speak here not only of power boats which to me are something to be abhorred, but to the use by sailing craft.

This one particular area I think is an area that lends itself to small boat use, but I would ask him if he has undertaken to discuss with the Federal authorities respon sible the construction of more safe harbours along the shores of Lake Winnipeg both above and below the Narrows, because I think that lake could well be used by more small boats. There would need to be, perhaps, an expenditure of money and perhaps the added expenditure would be too great, but I think that it is a study that could well be undertaken and I would appreciate his comments on such a study if one is presently under way .

There are other uses that those lakes could be put to but swimming and fishing are not ones that I will mention at this time . There are, too, I think programs or recreational activities that have to be considered now under the Ministe r's salary because I see nothing in the Estimates under which they could be considered if I don't bring them up now . And what I have in mind here is the antique train that presently operates between a station in Charleswood and a terminal point roughly at Headingley. That train of course is referred to as the Prairie Dog Central.

The Minister I know is very -· -filiniliar �ith the needs of the pe-ople who operate that train. I think-it is a commendable oper ation. I was on it the other day, well a week ago I think it was ; we rode from St . Charles and out to Headingley and got off at Headingley and walked around an area that the operators of this train would like to see developed at least in a minimal way.

They would like to see some clear ing of the, I don't know what you call it, grass I guess, that lies alongside the track; theywould like to see some construction of a platform which would assist people when they get off the train; they would like to see the construction of picnic tables and that type of thing, maybe barbecue pits which would be of some use to those individuals who were on the train and were getting off there .

I understand that the train operates several times during the weekend, that each time it departs from Charleswood it carries something like 250 passengers; I think that is a number that puts this particular project in a magnitude of consideration that he should take into account.

June 18, 1971 1985 (MR. TURNBULL cont'd) • Now the Minist·er did mention when he was on his feet a moment ago that there was a great need for some considerationof snow-making equipment at Mount Agassiz in the Riding Mountain National Park.

I didn't quite catch all the implications of his remarks and I would like to ask him while I'm on my feet if thought is being given to putting snow-making equipment· on Mount Agassiz and if in respect to that.negotiations have been entered. into or contemplated being entered into w:ith the Federal Government for the purpose of putting in snow-making equip ment at Mount Agassiz.

Another point that I would like to raise with the Minister now is something that in recent days has become very dear to my heart, and that is provisions for cycling� There was some publicity given to the possibility of cycling through Birds Hill Provincial Park on the radio the other day that I happened to hear.

I would like to point out to him that in the City of Ottawa which is under the control of the National Capital's Co=ission, some quarter million dollars has I think already been expended on the construction of cycling paths alongside the canal in Ottawa and that co=ission is looking at another quarter million dollars to raise the total ex penditure to some half million for the construction of additional cycling paths along the canals and through Ottawa. · · Now this may be, of course, a matter solely for the concern of the Minister of Transport ation, but I think that it could also be considered by the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, for c:ycll,ng obviously has beoome again a major recreational activity of many prople and I think that some consideration should be given to their needs.

I might point out that the maintenance of such cycling paths, as I understand anyway, is minimal, construction costs are minimal; I think the quarter million expended in Ottawa put in some 30 miles or more of cyciing paths. With these points then, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister if he could give them his consideration. MR . CHAmMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR . JAMES WALDING (St. Vital): Mr. Chairman, I would just like to reinforce one of the remarks that my colleague has just mentioned and that is to do with cycling.

I was most en couraged by the Minister's remarks about the promotion of amateur sport in the province and cycling has got to be one of the fastest growing sports and pastimes that we have; and apart from it being good exercise it's also pollution free, doesn't wear out the roads and it's one of the quietest means of transportation there is. I'm sure that this is one sport and pastime that the Minister and all of us would like to encourage in Manitoba. Organized cycling in Winnipeg is promoted by the Winnipeg Cycling Club which has a touring

section and a track racing

section and also a road racing section. We're very fortunate in Win nipeg to have one of the best cycling tracks in the country,the Velodrome built for the Pan Am Games for regular meetings here, track meetings, and this could hopefully, Mr� Chairman, become quite a spectator sport because as well as speed and strength there is also tactics involved in it. As far as road racing is concerned it is doubtful that this would ever become a major public attraction on public roads when races cover such a long distance in a single direc tion or just in two directions.

There is also the fact that road racing on public highways can be quite hazardous. There is, however, a ready-made circuit very close to the city at Birds Hill Park;it's a matter of three or four miles in length;it1s not as flat as most of Manitoba and is ideally suited for organized cycle racing. The club has sponsored cycle racing in the park so far this year, but on application to the Parks Branch I'm informed that they won 1t be allowed to hold races there on Sundays for the remaining three months of the season;and the season being as short as it is this really doesn't leave very much time for this sport.

The club recognizes that it would be unreasonable to close the park entirely for such a small number of people for its use, and it also recognizes the hazards of cycling in the park during the time when it is so busy on a Sunday. However the club is prepared to hold its races in the park early in the morning and it can be finished there by 10 o1 clockbefore the main public does attend; and it says something for the enthusiasm of these people who would get up at 6 o' clockinthe morning to go oufto a park and race around and expend a lot of energy.

Not only that of course, but throughout the su= er months it does get quite hot in the afternoons and they would prefer to finish in the cool of morning. So I would urge the Minister if he is really ser ious about promoting this very desirable sport in Manitoba that he should give consideration to allowing the club the use of the park before 10 o' clock in the morning.

1986 June 18, 1971 MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Cres centwood . MR . GONICK: Mr. Chairman, I' m glad that the members on this side are so interested in thi s department , because if we weren't there ce rtainly wouldn 't be a quorum in thi s House . I only want to speak very briefly on the Estimates of this department , in fact on two items .

The first has to deal with the recreatio nal policies of the government in respect to its allocation of funds; something that I' ve been concerned with in my own con stituency of Cresce ntwood has been the obvious lack of funds for the community clubs, of which there are two in my constituency , and their inability to launch the kind of programs which they would like to and the problems they 've had with the City of Winnipeg in getting the kind of funds which are necessary for amateur sport among young people and activities for senior citizen s, all of which are high on the prioriti es of the department .

It seems that in the wealthie r parts of the City of Winnipeg that the community clubs have ample facilities, but in the poor areas, in the hard core of the city and in the intermediate areas like my constituency there seems to be a general lack of facilit ies , and either the City of Winnipeg has thi s low on its priority or what I suspect happens, that the citizens in the affluent area, they 're able to raise the kind of money neces sary which are then matched by the City of Winnipeg;

whereas in the poorer areas which are less well organized it 's more difficult to get that kind of citizen support. The Provincial Government provides very little money at all for recreation inside the Ci ty of Winn ipeg in the form of community clubs which is probably the single most important facility for amateur sport in the City of Winnipeg .

This has been a policy of the department for some years which may have had some justific ation in the past , but it seems to me that it 's a bad policy and that the re should be some funds - there are now no funds available for recreation to our community clubs in the City of Winnipeg . I think that the department should reconsider the long-sta nding policy and begin to allocate some funds through the city, the new city I suppose , to community clubs.

The second matter I wish to speak about is to join with many others on the censors hip question, and here again I have very few words but I wish to put on the record my views on the subject .

I think we 've heard from at least two members on thi s side the kind of comment which I know many citizens are beginning to complain and complain loudly about and they're wondering why these pseudo moralists continue to climb their backs in terms of telling them what they can see and what they can't see , what kind of books they can read and what kind of books they can't read and what kind of TV they can watch and what kind they can't watch . Mr. Chairman, the Member for Thompson suggested I' m trying to tell others what they should watch and that is patently not true . You know, it reminds me , Mr.

Chairman, of the policies with regard to the arts in the USSR where they legislate what is legitimate art and what is illegitimate art, and that used to be one of our main critic isms of thi s kind of cultural totalitari anism in the communist law countries, which is a perfectly legitimate criticism that we made of them; but here we find in the Provinc e of Manitoba proponents of cultural totalitari ani sm . They are going to put into law what is legitimate film and what is illegitimate film .

They have the audacity to define for the citizens of Manitoba what is legitimate in film and what is illegitimat e, and it seems to me it's simply a return to the -- well, a reversal in our western democ ratic tradition to the kind of cultural totalitaria nism that we find in the countries like USSR.

Or, if you want to go further back into history we can remember the book burning episode which went on particularly in the Middle Ages, and here we find, you know, in the Attorney-General 's department, they're hunting in the book stores and new s stands to find literature which they don 't like and it really involves something little different than book burning . That 's their job, because I' m sure that 's the law; I' m suggesting that the law is an ass in thi s respe ct. I believe that what we'r e facing in the Province of Manitoba it seems is the kind of dictatorship of the prudes.

You know, prude power seems to be what we 're hearing from this side of the House in particular, and I think that , you know, people are saying, "Get off our backs , we don 't have to be directed to what films to watch and what books to read ." Mature men and women, and I as sume that members in the New Democ ratic Party would simply, you know, ass ume that men and women are mature , they certainly were in voting this party into offic e. Why aren't they mature enough to decide not only which political party to vote for but which films to atte st .

If the members are wo rried about the attendanc e in ce rtain of our theatres of young people - you know, Mr. Chairman , I went to see the move "I Am Curious Yellow" -- that may horrify the Member for Thompson -- (In terjection) -- I am a curious yellow . Right . --

June 18, 197,1 1987 (MR. GONICK cont'd.) ..... (Interjection) -- 1 saw that one too . "I Am Curious Yellow" -- I' ni certain that two thirds of the audience-was of the age which shouldn't have been there, in terms of the classification, etc .

Now if members are really worried about young ,people attending the�e kinds of films - I must say that I don't think that it does all that much harm - but if they al'.e really concerned about it, why don't they insist that far stiffer fines, even to the point of taking away licences of theatre proprietors, be launched in order to encourage proprietors to keep the young people out of film houses where they shouldn't be . I mean that seems to me .would satisfy that particular worry, concern that these membe rs have .

Ce rtainly for adult men and women I don't that they should be concerned with _what political parties people vote for. The kids in the beer parlor, I believe there is a far greater attention paid to this matter by our police and that the fines are much stiffer and if it has worked -- I don't think it's worked there very well , but it's worked to some degree , to some degree -- then I would think that if _ members are really concerned with this particular problem of young people watching these films they shpuld be advocat�g that kind of a solution.

I also went to see the movie "Joe" and I noticed that -- I enjoyed the film very much, unlike the Member for Thompson, but that isn't really what I wanted to say. I wanted to say that that film: has had a longer run in the City of Winnipeg than any other major centre in North America, and I'm sure it's because the Member for Thompson, :you know, in his outrage, criticized the film in the way that he did; in the same sense that -- in fact .. : on a commis sion, because I' m sure the proprietors of the film houses made hundreds of thousands of dollars as a result of his performance. Mr.

Speaker, I am also certain that clas sifications such as "Re stricted, etc." , "Adul ts, etc." are the kind of clas sifications which probably encourage people to attend films rather than discourage them, but if members believe that that system is necessary, and I don't really care one way or another about it, I think that what is necessary to meet their particular con cern - it's the only legitimate concern they could possibly have, and that is that young people are able to watch films which are meant for mature men and women - that the solution there is a simple one, and that is that far more drasti� fines up to ta�ng away licences of film pro prietors who allow children fo view these fil:tns, should be implemented.

Aside from that particular criticism, I don't think they have anything to say about this matter, in the same sense that I don't think in the USSR, you know, the state should be involved fa defining what is legitimate art and what is not legitimate art. I don't see why we are getting into this in this province, or why we should want to. I think it's absolutely ridiculous - more than ridiculous; it is an outrage that the state should be involved in defining what is good art and what is npt good art and what is legitimate and what is illegitimate. MR . CHAIRMAN: 94 (1) .

The Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs . MR . Bli-RTNIAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, there are a number of things that the honourable members hav'e stated in the last half an hour or so that I feel that perhaps I should reply. I haven't got them in their exact order but I'll skip from one to the other. I first of all would like to say to the Member from Brandon West in regard to the National Parks, when the member stated that he wanted to know just where we stand as a provincial government with some of the changes that are taking place in our national park, and I would j1!-st like to say, Mr.

Chairman, that of course we are quite concerned with some of the things that have been taking place there and perhaps some of the things that are going to take place. We do, as far as our department is concerned, we are in agreement with some of the things, but perhaps not with all of the things, such as he suggested the roller rink and so on.

Perhaps that should have been maintained, retained, but unfortunately the Federal Government doesn't come to the i:rrovincial Government and say to us, ''This is what we are going to do ." They make up th etr minds Jlnd they do it, and we don't know about it until after it is done. Of course, we can protest all we want but their mind is made up on certain things and that is exactly where some of these things stand.

The M�mber for Riel made a few comments and I would like to say to the honourable member that on his first part of the presentation I think that as far as snowmobiling and so on is concerned, I would suggest to him that the points are certainly well taken and we are looking into these possibilities. Insofar as his remarks on the Censor Board, he suggested that it received a number of letters from, whether they were his constituents or not, it doesn't really matter, but I don't think that anybody - and rightly so , I suppose - has received, as I've said

1988 June 18, 1971 (MR. BURTNIAK cont' d.) ..... before , as many letters and phone calls and delegations as we have , because we are responsible for this particular part and it seems to me that , at the pre sent time at least, that the minority report -- as the honourable member stated, there seemed to be a split 3 and 2 and the minority report seems to be in agreement with most of the people who have written and have come to see us .

They seem to favour the minority report, and perhaps this is the road that perhaps we should take and, as I said before , in perhaps a very short time we will be making certain recommendations to the House . The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney, I am sorry I missed his particular ques tion - I believe he mentioned it last night - in regard to the grants to the Peace Garden . We have been making grants to the International Peace Garden there for a number of years up to, I believe it was $1 5, OOO annually. We have increased it by $5, OOO which will make it now $20 , OOO this year.

The Honourable Member for Gladstone was talking about the marking of the highwa ys . His point too is well taken and of course I have to discuss this with my colleague the Minister for Transportation and perhaps _something can be done in that regard shortly . The Honourable Member for Radi sson suggested base ball diamonds in the various parks, as far as recreation areas are concerned . I think that perhaps this is something that we should be looking at . However, as I have already mentioned in my presentation yesterday, that there is more to it than just what one can say off the bat .

The reason why we are looking and taking a study so that we can come up with a master plan for the various parks in our province, is to try and see that when these master plans are developed that we may have these kind of facilities in some of our recreational area s, but when he talks about ce rtain parts of the city, I some times wonder, not that I don't think that it is the policy of the government that we shouldn't get into these things , I sometimes wonder whether we should or not, but I also wo nder whether or not these kind of things should not be discussed with the city authorities within their own municipaliti es to provide these kind of facilities for the various parts of the City of Winnipeg .

The Honourable Member for Lakeside was discus sing the Fe stival '71 grant. I am pleased to say that last year we did contribute financially as a department to thi s particular project. I understand it was quite succes sful in some wa ys . Howeve r, it hasn't been as suc ces sful as maybe some of us had anticipated it would be . The thing that really surprises me though, Mr.

Chairman, is the fact that for some reason or another the local business people are not as enthusiastic about this kind of a venture as maybe some of us are led to believe , because although I don't wish to quote any figures at this time , I can as sure the honourable members , Mr.

Chairman, that last year the contributions from the various business establish ments in the City of Winnipeg were somewhere in the neighbourhood of five times as large , as great as they are today, and for some reason, I don't know what it is, but apparently the bus ine ss people in the City of Winnipeg, particularly in that area, are not all that enthusiastic about this kind of a festival . We are not saying that we are not going to be contributing anything for this year.

We are looking at thi s possibility and no doubt there will be some funds made availa ble from our department to help these people out in making this festival hopefully a success, but we are also looking for some greater as sistance , I would say, from some of the private busine sses in the Ci ty of Winnipeg , and we will of course judge ourselves accor dingly . A number of people spoke on the cycling thing . I agree with the Honourable Member from St . Vital that it is - and also the Member from Osborne - that cycling today has become quite a sport . It is true and I am sure we all agree, Mr.

Chairman, that this kind of sport is good not only for your health, to keep yourself in shape, but also it is the kind of sport or kind of vehicle that does not cause any pollution whether it be in the form of gas fumes or noise, and I think that it has -- well I shouldn't say I think; we all know that it has increased in popu larity very, very quickly and we are not trying to, as a department, we are not trying to dis courage this . As a matter of fact, we'r e trying to encourage it, but we do have certain facilities availa ble in the Bir d's Hill Park for this kind of thing .

There is a problem of course at tim es, when it becomes an organized sort of a deal , and particularly on the wee kends when we have overflow crowds there, that as the Member for St . Vital suggested, if we can perhaps make some arrangements - and I' m sure that this will be done - within the next few days, that if it is an organized affair, that perhaps if this can be completed by, say 10:00 or 10:30 in the morning, there ce rtainly doesn't seem to be any problem, at least not in my mind, that this can be acc omplished.

June 18, 197, (MR. BURNIACK cont' d. ) . 1989· · In regard to -- I believe the Member for Osborne was suggesting or I think that he prob ably misunderstood me. I was referring to snow-making machines at Falcon Lake and he, deliberately or otherwise, jumped into Mount Agassiz . That area, of course, is very popular too as far as ,skiing is concerned. However, we will have to be taking a very close look at this possibility be�ause, as I said before, it is a costly venture and I am not in the position to say that we are going to proceed with this within the next year or so but certainly in the near future.

As far as the -- I don't know whether I got this question correct or not, ins�far as studies are concerned with regard to Hecla Island Harbour - I believe it_ was what he was talking about - yes . Naturally this has to be dealt with with the federal people, as I am sure the honourab'le member knows, and this will be undertaken I can assure him . MR. CHAIRMAN: (Resolutions 94 to 101 were read and passed.) The Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs estimates are completed. The Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, .•. do the Department of Highways . MR. MI:LLER: Mr.

Chairman, I think we should remain with the Department of Public Works and Highways . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Highways . MR . BOR,OWSKI: I don't know what he's tapping about; he's not getting any gravel this year. Mr. Chairman, the remarks I have to make are going to go a lot beyond 15 minutes. However, since the timing is such, I will have to give as much information as possible now and carry on on Monday when we start.

In looking at Hansard, I find that I stopped on the subject of statistics dealing with the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund, and the next item that I was about to discuss when time ran out was Driver Suspensions . Financial Responsibility Certificates 1969, the total was 2, 887; 1970 was 2, 163. Total suspensions in 1970 - 12 , 904; total suspensions in 1969 - 11, 054 . Number of Conditional Licenses issued 1969 was 737; 1970 - 875 . Approximately one-half of the suspended drivers live in the Greater Winnipeg area and as of December 31, 1970 , the number of suspen sions were a total of 19, 801 .

Number of suspensions shown that cannot get licences for various reasons are 20, 555 . Mr. Chairman, I am told by the Registrar, although the present number of suspended drivers is 19i 801, that by the time November lst rolls around where we will have auto insurance, public auto in'surance, that almost half of these drivers will be back on the road, so our figures are going to be down drastically. Mr.

Chairman, I •ve been perhaps taking longer than is the usual case for talking about safety on the highway and what we' ve been doing, and unlike previous governments, we practice what we preach and we have not been unmindful of the safety of our own employees and have instituted a program on all fronts within our department, and I' m happy to say that just earlier this winter the Chairman of the Compensation Board presented a certificate to our department for 250, OOO, I believe, hours of work without an injury.

This is, I am told, not only a record for our department but never in the history of Manitoba has any department achieved a record where their employees went a quarter of a million hours without a lost time injury. And in order to encourage our employees, Mr. Chairm1lll, to work safely, last year I had ordered lighters, special butane lighters with suitable engraving, and the Swan River district was the winner; out of the twelve districts we have, Swan River had the best safety record, and each member I personally presented with a butane lighter.

And The Pas mechanical division, I believe five divisions we have in Manitoba, had the best record in the mechanical area for safety. They also were presented by myself with butane lighters . We are presently discussing what we are going to present the various districts this year. I would like for the record, Mr. Chairman, to give you a comparison of our accident statistics for the last two fiscal years and they· go as follows - _this is for all districts: 1969-70 lost time accidents were 85 , 1970-71 all districts, the accidents have dropped to 50 . You can see that's almost a 50 percent reduction.

Frequency ratio was down from 27.4 to 18 .5. And then we have the severity ratio and injury index. Reduction -- the time charges and severity ratio are .much higher this year due to the one automobile death charged against the department by the Compensation Board. Although the record is an excellent one, unfortunately there was one fatality involved with a car and this gives us automatically 6, OOO points which throws the other end of our index out. ..

1990 June 18, 1971 (MR . BOROWSKI cont' d.) Mechanical Divi sion, all shops 1969 -70 , last year 23, this year 15, and the frequency ratio again was 33 . 1 down to 25 . 8 - and this is the record right up to June, the end of June, I believe . So, Mr. Ch airman, again I' d like to congratulate all the boys in our Department for taking to heart our philosophy of wo rking safely . Not only are they better workers as a result, but lost time accidents are very co stly because they remain on the payroll or the Co mpensation Board pays.

We in turn have to reimburse the Co mpensation Board unfortunately 100 percent, unlike with private industry. One other item we'r e looking at, there 's been a lot of accide nts affecting toes and eyes, and I think there 's been a rather dramatic increase in eye injuries and toe injur ie s. We are right at this moment discussing with our both departments, Public Works and Hi ghways, about the idea of the men we aring safety boots and safety glasses as we wear them in the mine .

I have put out a memo to all our field staff to take an inventory of the feeling of the men on the job if they wo uld oppose or if they would welcome the idea of having safety glasses and safety boots, and I just in the last week received a memo back from the various districts and it seems that it 's about a 50- 50 breakdown where half of them think it 's a good idea and the other half think it would be uncomfortable, and also they feel that if we institute the safety practice that the government or the taxpayers should pay for it.

So this is an area we 're working on right now and when we come to some conclusion after a few more meet ings wit h our distric ts, I think then we' ll be in a posit io n to implement it whether it 's done on the basis of the government paying or the employees paying themselves .

One other item I' d like to touch on while we 're on safety, is the record, the atrocious record of civil servants with their cars , and I am going to recommend, in fact I' ve already recommended that all civil servants who drive publicly-owned cars - and I think we 've got about 2, 300 cars that are driven by various civil servants - that they all take the Defensive Driving Course . The cost is $5 .0 0 and again it 's a question of should they pay it or should the taxpayers through the Department pay it ?

Just to show you how bad the civil servants are in their handling of cars , the insurance rates that we pay, that the Manitoba Government pays, in the year 197 0 was $55 .3 9 per unit and this is for $100 , OOO P.L. and P.D. Now compare thi s to Hydro who has one of the best safety programs in Ca nada , I'm to ld. The Hydro people pay $15.9 8 per unit and this gives them half a million dollars P.L. and P.D. So you've got a difference there of about -- rapid calculation, well , say about two and a half times.

That 's an unbelie vable disparity between the Hydro and Manitoba employees, and I think if we 're going to tell the public that they must drive safely and punish them, compel them to bring their cars for safety checks, I think that we should at least do as much for our civil servants who are presumably here to serve the public . Still dealing with cars, Mr. Chairman, I' d like to deal just briefly with the suspension of purchasing of cars from the dealers because of the unilateral decis ion of the Big Three for withdrawing the fleet disco unts .

I' d like to first of all read a brief report from our Mechanical Division -- I think this is the one. Well I seem to have lost the report, Mr. Chai rman. In any case , we suspended the purchasing of vehicles as has been announced time and time again - (Interjection) -- the Volvo ?

Well we haven't got any Volvos yet but the Minister of Mines and Resources, not being, you know, too concerned about his status, said he 'd acc ept one; when we decide to start purchasing cars it would not be below his dignity to drive a Volvo and accor dingly I' ve promised him that when we go back to purchasing cars that he will be getting a Volvo and •.• MR . CHAIRMAN : Pursuant to Rule 19 (2) , Co =ittee rise . Call in the Speake r. IN SE SSION MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR . J. R. (BUD) BOYCE (Winnipeg Ce ntre): Mr.

Speake r, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Radi sson, that the report of the committee be receiv ed . MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carrie d. PfilVATE MEMBER S' RESOLUTIONS MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prair ie . The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie .

. I June 18, 1971 199_1 MR. G©RDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by . the Member for As siniboia,

WHEREAS in recent years there has developed a trend toward centralization of all economic, p 61itical, social, and cultural facilities and opportunities in the Metropolitan · Winnipeg region, to the exclusion of the rural and northern areas of Manitoba; AND WHE REAS the said trend results in a feeling of remoteness in the non.:.urban regions of Manitoba, and denies job opportunities with government agencies to many persons living in rural and northern Manitoba; AND

WHEREAS this House recognizes that it is important for Government to set an example to industry in its encouragement of the relocation of industrial economic opportunity, and the creation of jobs in all regions of Manitoba, and not only in the Metropolitan Winnipeg area; . AND

WHEREAS such an example could be set if certain Government departments were relocated to become closer to the people whose lives are most affected by their actions; · THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Government of Manitoba consider: (

a) the movement of the Department of Agriculture, together with key civil servants and headquarter operation out of Metropoli�an Winnipeg and into a location to be designated by the Government, in the farming areas of Manitoba; (

b) the movement of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, together with civil servants and headquarter operation out of Metropolitan Winnipeg and into a location to be designated by the Government, in the mining areas of Manitoba; (

c) and that Manitoba Government consider favorably the moving of other Departments of Government to various other regions of Manitoba, all to the end that Government job opportunity and access to Government departments be more equitably distributed than is currently th� case with all departments locating and having their Head Offices in the City of Winnipeg . MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . MR . G'. JOHN STON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the resolution is so lengthy and detailed that very little needs to be said in support, but I would remind members of this House, some of whom went to Ottawa yesterday, some for the fifth time, the Minister of Labour for the fifth time, to protest and complain bitterly to the federal authorities about centralization into central Canada, namely Ontario and Quebec, of certain Crown corporations and also other governmental departments . And it was found by the delegation that while we had a sympathetic hearing nothing really has changed. Nothing has changed.

The process goes on, and even such honourable gentlemen like John Diefenbaker and Alvin Hamilton who tried to do something about it; our1 Cabinet Minister of Manitoba is trying but without a great deal of success - Mr. Richardson is trying to do something about the centralization of the civil service and Crown corporations in and around Ottawa. We appear to be running into a stone wall. Now, after having said that, let us look at what happens in Manitoba . Are we not guilty of the same thing? We have the I Department of Mines located in Winnipeg and where are the mines?

Is there a mine within 20 miles of Winnipeg ? -- (Interjection) -- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please . MR. G. JOHNSTON: I doubt it. I believe Morris is 50 or 40 miles from Winnipeg, is it not? I'm sure the Member from Morris must know what the distance from Winnipeg to Morris is. So what,! am saying in effect is that we'd better put our money where our mouth is. We are complaining to Ottawa about their centraJization tactics, yet we are doing nothing ourselves about the same problem.

I am sure the Member for Thompson and the Member for Churchill will be in some agreement notwithstanding our differences in political outlook. The fact that the Northe� Task Force has made recommendations along the same lines and by the very fact that this government has encouraged and is still encouraging the Northern Task Force, I be lieve .that they have a serious feeling that they wish to do something about it, and I commend them for this and I hope that not only through this resolution but through their own thoughts that they will do something to help implement this resolution.

The Department of Agriculture, while it can be said that Winnipeg is somewhat central to southern Manitoba, it is still not central to the agricultural operations of the province. And I could go on, Mr. Speaker, and mention to you other matters in this regard. It seems to me that since the days when Manitoba was what they called the postal stamp province, a small

1992 June 18, 1971 (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont' d.) square in southeast Manitoba, nothing has changed. In those days the communications were bad, the road network was non-existent, and there was no air travel . Today we have instant communication, Telex, TV, telephones, better highways which we hope to improve all the time, and jet travel , and there is no need any more to cen tralize government operations in the City of Winnipeg. It is not fair that only the residents of this area have the chance to work and live near the civil service jobs.

I think the time has come when all of Manitoba, through a judicious selection such as I have mentioned, should have a chance to be near the department that concerns them - and I' m talking about Mining and Agriculture . There is no reason why Manitoba Hydro should be located in Winnipeg, or Manitoba Telephone System or the Water Board . There is no reason any more as to why they should always be here , and for that reason I propose the resolution. MR . SPEAKER: A re you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR . PHILIP M. PETURBSON (Wellington) : Mr.

Speaker, I would wish to add a word or two to this particular debate and, inasmuch as the resolution makes reference to social , cul tural and other similar opportunities, I thought I might dwell on that for a few moments. Although I would want to point out that in the natural evolution of towns, settlements in the province, some of them are of necessity, I imagine, subject to decay, and I' m not arguing in favour of that position but, as a boy in Saskatchewan, I can recall to wns that at the time seemed to be flourishing and then in later years they become run down and deserted.

It wasn't neces sarily because of the lack of opportunities in those towns any greater than in other towns but it was because of the way they had been originally located and the change of conditions and of times, and I think particularly of the CP R railroad that ran through from Yorkton to Edmonton; as a small boy I was out there before the railroad went past Yorkton.

But in the laying of that railroad there were sections laid out which seemed naturally to pinpoint towns every seven or eight or nine miles apart; there was a station and then a few buildings in each town and these towns became the centre of the farming community in the immediate surroundings .

An elevator might be erected, in some places two or three, and as long as the farmers had no other kind of means of travel than horses and wagons or, as they did in the earliest days , oxen, these towns suited the purpose very well because it took considerable time for the farmers to travel not oD.ly in from the farms but, if they wished to, from one town to another. But after the advent of the motor car, the pos sibility of travelling farther and in a shorter time developed, and some towns gained a preference for no apparent reason at the time , but they gained a preference to others .

And these were the towns that grew while the others gradually decayed, and that process is still going on. If the government were to step in to try to rescue every town that now exists, it would be beyond the capacity of any government to do that, and I' m not encouraging the speeding of that process up in any way but simply to point out that this is a fact of life . One of the reasons for that sort of a thing happening is simply that as the mechanized forms of farming develop, the farms grow in size, then the farm popu lation decrease in number, and I don't know how you're going to put a stop to that .

As the farm population decreases in number, obviously there are fewer and fewer people to travel into these towns and to patronize the merchants or the industries or whatever happens to be there, in these tow ns . And so some towns will decay and some towns are decaying, and the request is being made in this resolution to step in and change things so that the towns or the people living in them will not have the same feeling of remoteness in non-urban regions of the province, and where people will not be denied job opportunities with government agencies.

In the nature of things it's impossible to spot government agencies in so many different places that they in themselves would be instrumental in salvaging the existence of towns. This can't be done, and the sense of remoteness will not be by any means removed because no matter where the government attempted to spot a department, there would always be towns removed by 50 - 100 - 150 - 200 miles from that particular spot that would, if they feel remoteness now, would also still be feeling the same remoteness.

If a government department is set up, say, in almost any small town south or -- (Interjection) - Well , in Thompson -- (Interjection) - Well, I' m trying to keep away from the larger urban areas . Supposing an agency is set up in Thompson, then are there not other places that are farthest from Thompson that would have that feeling of remoteness just as greatly as they feel remoteness from Winnipeg at the present time ? If the Department of Agriculture were set up in, say, Gladstone, then there are places in the southern part of the province that would feel just as remote from Gladstone as they do from Winnipeg .

Measured from east to west,

June 18, 1971 1993 (MR. PETURSSON cont'd.) • Winnipeg is in the geographical centre of the province although not from north to south. There's a great portion of the population, as great a portion of the populatfon living - I may be wrong in this, but I was going to say living west of_ Winnipeg as there is liv;ing east. It's not really correct. But in any event, in these days of rapid travel by motor car and other means, if necessary by plane, there is no

part in the province that need feel remote. And the country points are being supplied with many of the amenities that are called for in the resolution. But I was going to dwell, Mr. Speaker, more on the items mentioned here, the social and cultural facilities . Simply because of the nature of Winnipeg as a large centre, these facilities have been developed here because in a smaller place than Winnipeg they could not logically be d�veloped.

For instance, the Concert Hall, the establishment of the symphony Orchestra, any number of things that I have listed here - libraries, great number of curling rinks, the Arts Council, the Museum, the Planetarium, the Zoo, the Library, the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, and so on. These cultural ventures are centred in Winnipeg for the very good reason that they have the patronage in Winnipeg; that is, they are patronized by great numbers of Winnipeg people .

If they were centred in Portage la Prairie or Brandon, in the nature of things they could not have developed to the point that they have, and I thought I might indicate -- (Interjection) -- I didn •t get that. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I would suggest to the former Minister that these are not govern'- ment industries . . · MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. PETURSSON: I' m sorry, I can still not hear what he says .

No, they're not gov ernment agencies but they are all supported by grants from the government and they were mentioned iJ:i the resolution in the very first "whereas", and therefore I thought maybe it might be appropriate to deal with them. And from the point of view of these - what would you call them? - ventures?

Whatever you call them, they are serving Winnipeg very well, but they are also serving rural areas to a very great degree and many of them helping to a tremendous extent in removing any sense of remoteness that may be felt by rural areas from the opportun ity of enjoying the cultural contributions that these organizations, these endeavours make. The Mahltoba Arts Council has done a great deal in providing music festivals and other related - do we call them entertainments - to rural areas. There have been 6, OOO competitors involved in 25. festivals over the province, and besides, there were 500 groups that took

part in a festival held in Gladstone, and so on. The area council has received assistance from the government to subsidize this particular type of work. The Brandon Allied Arts Council has received an incentive to carry on its cultural activity in Brandon and the surrounding area, and it received a grant from the government to carry on its work. And these provincial funds are used to h0lp young people to realize the ma.Ximum of their potential and to make opportun ities of the Allied Arts Council available to all the citizens .

I could mention a great number of activities that have been carried on by the Contempor ary Dancers and the local arts festivals in many centres. There's the Holiday Festival at Neepawa each' year, and then there is such a thing as the Music Camp at the International Peace Garden where 900 young Manitobans last year went through a training period which has resulted in dramatic improvement of their abilities .

The Manitoba Theatre Centre has put on shows, not only in the local Manitoba Theatre Centre here in Winnipeg, but it has travelled out through the country to· such places as Gimli, Brandon, Island Lake, Glen:boro, Thompson and other centres to give examples of the art, particular type of art that they practice. And the Manitoba Arts Council has assisted com munities on the Overture Concert Circuit with special travel compensation grant for commun ities north of;the 53rd Parallel. Communities which benefitted last year were Dauphin, Churchill, LYnn Lake, Brandon, Thompson and The Pas_.

The people of Gillam also were given an opportunity of being entertained in this way, and this recital of the dance and places is simply to indicate that much is being done in a cultural way to help to keep these communi' ties having any feeling of remoteness. And if there was a remoteness ever felt, then this must fast be disappearing. The Royal Winnipeg Ballet, for instance, has appeared at Brandon, Flin Flon, Thompson and The Pas, as well as at Pine Falls . There are branches of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet School that take advantage of the opportunity of travelling around and putting on ballet performances.

I might go on. The Art Gallery is one of the outstanding features that bas shown or put on art

1994 June 18 , 1971 (MR. PE TURSSON cont' d.) • exhibits in many places throughout the province.

I have a map that gives an indication of a number of different plac es that the Art Gallery has carried exhibits to show in rural areas, and I haven't tried to count the red dots that are shown on the map here indicating plac es to which the Art Gallery has car ried exhibits, but in reading the brochure on this it is indicated there that the Art Gallery has taken exhibits to well over 110 different communities in the province, and as far as the Art Gallery is con cerned there need be no sense of remoteness among these towns or in these areas.

And in showing exhibits, or giving exhibits of art works in these places, the attendance, the total attendanc e as it has been presented, comes to over 550 , OOO people which is well over one half of the total population of the province. All of these centres are being touched and being serviced through the efforts of these cultural organization s, and that includes the Winnipeg Symphony which in total or in part has travelled to a great number of centres giving perform ances in these places to the great pleasure and delight of many communities .

If there was a time when any of these communities felt remote or deprived of or experienced a sense of remotene ss, then that sense of remoteness can't but have disappeared as far as the cultural endeavours are concerned. The Minister of Culture is not -- (Interjection) -- Pardon ? Well ..• MR . SPEAKER: Order, pleas e. MR. PE TURSSON : If these areas that have been visited by these organizations still feel deprived, then that feeling must be less in proportion to the number of time s that they have been visited or are visited .

I' m not saying that more can't be done and I would be in favour of having more being done , but if the honourable member who proposes this res olution can give the government department involved some indicaticn as to how additional funds can be alloca ted, then I am sure that the Minister concerned would be happy to know about it .

But, in the meantime , these programs can be regarded as not only beginning programs but ongoing programs that as the opportunities arise will be continued, One of the things that creates a problem is the fact that the facilities in :many of these plac es are not such in f!fl'ery case such that the Winnipeg Ballet , for instance, could put on a full -fledged performance, and it is difficult in some plac es to imagine that for purposes of the Ballet a hall sufficiently large to acco=odate the company should be erected . After all ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please . The Honourable Member has three minutes.

After all , the Ballet Com pany in travelling to these plac es could be served by having a large entertain ment building set up, but if it were only for that one purpose, a single purpose at the time that the Ballet appears, then it would be money , the expenditure of which could probably not be justified. But through these various endeavours , something is being done and I am not saying that all that can be done is being done but something is being done , and to that extent at least, these communities need not feel as remote as it is made to appear . Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill . MR. GORDON W. BE ARD (Churchill): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was rather shocked and amazed at what my honourable friend has just said. I' ve always thought very highly of him . I thought he was a Manitoban and he 's a Winnipeger. And he has never lived in isolation; he has never lived in isolation . If he had, he couldn't pos sibly have said those things that he has said. I believe he is in isolation . I believe very much so, and I hope ·he will listen .

You say that you can •t move into rural Manitoba because the facilities are not good enough - you've got to improve them . Well , improve them ! That's what you're voted in for. For goodne ss' sakes, don 't try to sell us on a uni-city for Winnipeg and then say, on the other hand, you must also give up what you have in rural Manitoba because the City of Winnipeg is going to be so big and so good that that's the only place that people will be able to get the proper facil ities to operate in. My goodne ss, this is terrible . You almost lost my vote on the one-c ity concept with that type of thinking .

And certainly if he is speaking for government - and I take it for granted he is - then this means that the Government of Manitoba is against decentraliza tion; that the NDP Party have decided that their voting power is in the City of Winnipeg and this is where they're going to keep plugging away at it . -- (Interjection) . It's not nonse nse . I listened to what the member said.

It was impossible, he said, to move away anything from Winnipeg out into the other ar eas . -- (Interjec tion) -- Well , he gave no case for speaking the way he has, and I' m sure when I read the mes sage again , his address, it will say that things should stay in Winnipeg, and we will see when you get around

June 18, 1971 1995 i (MR. BEARD !cont'd. ) ••••• to voting on this as to how you're going to vote on it. But certainly there is a place in the rest of Ma:riitoba for government. If there isn't, then we may as well find a new government that will accept the rest of Manitoba . He talks about isolation and that things aren't good enough in the rest of the province so they have to be done in Winnipeg.

That's just what Ottawa has told 90-odd members who went down there to try and get something on the aircraft industry; tbey have said that there are not enough facilities out in Western Canada, that you are not up to standards that we have in the East so why should we m0ve it out. That is what they have said, they've said that it is better for Air Canak to have the facilities down where the people are and they have told you now with the other aircraft industry that there isn't enough for the west; and this is what you are saying here today.

You are saying there isn't enough in rural Manitcha to consider moving departments out. My goodness what about Portage la Prairie or Brandon for the Department of Agriculture.

Certainly it "'.as good enough in Winnipeg years ago when Winnipeg was an agricultural city, but today they-could well have agriculture at Portage or Brandon and I suppose Brandon is the logical place, it has been over the years; but either one of those could have agriculture. -- (Interjection) -- And swan River wouldn't be out of -- it's a good grain growing area and the facilities are good there; they have water and sewer facilities and they have communica tion.

You are talking about facilities; there's facilities - with the last part of the communica tion system now hooked up for .most of Manitoba then there should be no problem; you can pick up a pho:µe at Brandon or Portage just as well as you can pick up a phone in Winnipeg, so why shoulq we have to sit around and listen to governments saying we can't decentralize. -- (Interjectibn) - Well y�u apparently were not listening to the last speaker. I would just suggest to you about Mines and Natural Resources .

The maj ority of the work is done in the north, certainly 90 or 95 percent of the problems in Ji:rlning are in the north. Where's the logical place for the Department of Mines and Natural Resources ? You have the 1io:gest part-of your Hydro development in central and northern Manitoba; you have got ·the largest company in Canada located in the north. International Nickel Company can buy and sell Manitoba I suppose two br three times over. And here you say that there are not facilities in rural Manitoba to look after decentralization. -- (Interjection) -- Where's what ?

Inco's headquar ters are located in Ontario; they do most of their business, granted, through New York, through Toronto, but you will find that their headquarters are in Canada. I think.that you will find that if you decentralize maybe you would take some of these communities out of a one industry town and do something about Thompson being a one industry town, do something about Flin Flon being a one industry town, Lynn Lake and Snow Lake.

Instead of trying to find $500, OOO to get into the exploration game where you are trying to compete With companies that have been in the business for generations, get into secondary industry and decentralize . Why can't you have the steel industry in Thompson ? You've got the iron, you've got the nickel and you've got the Manitoba Development Fund. If you want to get into something, get into something that will complement the second, the industry in the one town. Sometime these communities are going to be ghost towns and then we are going to be crying and saying what can we do about it.

Well what should be done about it.is n6w, something should be done now; don't wait until the ore supply runs out. Use that ore supply for secondary industries, get more labour out of your raw resources, get more returns for yourselves taxwise, but for goodness sakes, don't say to us in rural Manitoba and northern Manitoba that we do not have the facilities to accommodate departments of government, crown corporations, etc. because certainly we have and we are willing to work with government wherever possible when they do decentralize.

But I 'rµ very shocked and I'm disappointed if the NDP Party are not going to do some thing about livening up rural Manitoba. The speaker spoke about ballet dancers going out into rural Manitoba. -- (Interjection) -- Well this is one, but they didn't go to all the com munities, nor do any of the arts that travel around the country. They go to those places that they feel they can get the attendance and su pport the to ur aro und the co unt ry . But I'm telling the member that if he thinks that Winnipeg is an arts centre, then he's got to say to himself, where did they get the money ?

Where did they get the money ? They got it from Manitoba, not just Winnipeg; and it is not just good enough to build centennial buildings and say theyre fer all of Manitcha and they're in Winnipeg because the people from rural

1996 June 18 , 1971 (MR. BE ARD cont' d.) . Manitoba don't get the opportunity to use them. So there are many things that we can do I think to bring rnral Manitoba out of the feeling of isolation. If you are going to keep the boy on the farm -or the boy in the country then you 're going to have to offer better things, and government can be a leader, and if government is a leader, then others will follow.

But as long as the government is going to say, well we can't accept any change because it would cost money or that we can do our things better here, well then we will stay as we are now and that's stagnant for the rest of Manitoba and the Greater Winni�g will be soon called "Hog Town". That'll be the place where the action is and then they'll start to worry about so many rnral people coming into Winnipeg they won't know what to do with them . Well I say do something now before it's too late and then you will have that opportunity to say well we have done something for all of Manitoba .

I think that it would be wise if we could find ways and means of having people move out of the City of Winnipeg and it will cost you less in the long run for the money that has to be invested in this large metropoli s to look after a growing population. I think that in decentralization you are going to get the civil serv ants and the Minister closer to those things that he has to administra te . I always look back to those people that ar e looking after northern Manitoba living in Winnipeg.

They may go up once or twice a year or half a dozen times but it is very easy to forget the problems that you have in the north when you're sitting in Winnipeg. I know as much as I travel around that once I' m in here during a session, that I, too, feel that I forget the real per sonal problems that people have that live in the north .

I think you've got to live in the north closer to them to find these things and to prepare the north for the awakening that every politician says is coming; every politician throughout the whole of Canada campaigned on the fact that the north is the future of the province and Canada. And yet we say we can't decentralize, that we can't move government closer to where that action is . And that's what got to happen.

If the people move up to where the action is, to where industry is, well then they'll get a piece of the action and they'll be ahead of industry rather than dragging behind as they have for so many years . Thank you. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR . BOYC E: Mr. Speaker, I was very interested in the response and reaction from the Member for Churchill and while I didn't hear all of the Member from Wellington's addr ess , I know the Member from Wellington and I am familiar with the government's policy in this particular regard .

I'm not privy to all consultations but some of them and I wish to give the Member from Churchill my perso nal as suranc e that if it is adopted as government policy what he interpreted the Member's contribution from Wellington, if this is ever adopted as govern ment policy I will sit with him on that side of the House . I really can't understand why he from Churchill who has seen much action in the north by this government in many many areas could suggest that it is, or would be government policy that we would neglect the north or rnral devel opment.

Now I know it is through the participation of two levels of government the activities that are going on in Churchill at the pre sent time and it isn't really our glory that it has come about during this regime , nevertheless, action is being taken in Church ill . Another very good example is that this government shortly after taking office said if in fact there was going to be established a government automobile insurance facility that the head office of that would be located in Br andon. Well I' m sure that the member would agree that we have to look

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-3-82
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 3rd hansardpdf 82.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	14e6455697f4be9735a06137dcbc3fce3813b76c

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