Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 10

February 14, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 221 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I would like to welcome to the galleries today a delegation from the Town of Bonavista, the Mayor of Bonavista, Mr. Gordon Bradley, Jr.; the Town Manager, Mr. Fifield; and the Town Clerk, Mr. Rose. I trust that your visit here is most interesting. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HORE. MAYNARD, Minister of Forestry and Agriculture: Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to present to the House at this time Government policies with regard to Forest Management.

The Government will very shortly introduce new legislation and amendments to existing legislation to enable Government to carry out these p_olicies. Before getting into the specifics of the new policies, I would like to review the history of our Forest resource in Newfoundland to lend some perspective to our present situation and to our future policies. Newfoundland today differs very little from the rest of Canada in its historical involvement with its For·ests.

At the beginning of the century agreements were made by which vast tracts of our woodlands were given under various forms of tenure to a handful of major operators. Government at the time did not envisage themselves as having any role to play in the planning and developing of the forest industry, Historically, it would have been anomalous for it to have done so. Contemporary thinking seems to have been that our forests were an inexhaustible resource which renewed itself quite naturally.

It could therefore quite properly be left to the proprietorship of the operating companies to whose experience and ingenuity the resource could be entrusted. Indeed, Government of the time probably felt fortunate that anybody at all would 762

February 14, 1974 Tape 222 PK - 1 come to Newfoundland and show an interest in our forests, This attitude is reflected in the very favourable agreements which the operators achieved, and which still are in force today. These agreements, based on land rentals of $2,00 a square mile - to cite the norm - without any stumpage charges, for the most part, were by far the most favourable awarded in any part of North America. This resulted directly in many years of forfeited revenues and indirectly in the lack of long-term planning and utilization.

This lack of planning has characterized our forest industry and resulted in the rather unfavourable image from which it has suffered and continues to suffer in the minds of our people. The situation as it exists todays has evolved little from the period which saw the construction of the two major mills built at that time - The Price mill in 1907 and the Bowater mill in 1925.

The location of the mills themselves, the supply of available labour and wood fibre, the lack of investment in technology and research, the minimum of measures for protection of the resources; all of these were dictated by the demands of those early years. The shortcomings of this laissez faire picture are quite glaringly obvious in terms of the economic needs of today. Government can no longer tolerate un­ supervised and unregulated exploitation of our resources.

It is our responsibility not just to encourage investment by the private sector but,as with all our resources from wood to fish, from oil and minerals to energy itself; it is our greatest priority to create and enforce policy by which these industries may survive and prosper to the fullest benefit of all, not just for a few.

In the case of our forestry resource, which is indeed a renewable one, it must be our policy to maximize its yield not just for our present prosperity but for the prosperity of generations to come, To achieve an indepth analysis of our forest industry in this context and to best determine how to go about creating a comprehensive management policy, a task force or a special study group was appointed 763

February 14, 1974 Tape 222 PK - 2 by Government in July 1972. The group consisted of Provincial and Federal officials and consultants drawn from related fields - I might add, all across North America. The objectives were defined as follows:- 1, To indentify and analyize the factors affecting the management and control of the forest resources. 2. To draw technical conclusions and evaluate alternative approaches which the Province may use in formulating a forest policy.

The task force established nine working conmittees to investigate the following areas of concern:- Wood requirements and supply; Land capability and land use; Forest land tenure and taxation; Forest administration; Wood utilization, product development and marketing; Harvesting and transportation; Forest improvement and protection; Capital and labour productivity and availability; Environment quality. Each committee was assigned responsibility for ~reparing a comprehensive analysis of its subject area.

Altogether, forty-five individuals were involved, each knowledgeable in the particular area to which he was assigned. The task force completed its assessment of the Forest Resource as scheduled and submitted its report to me on March 31, 1973. Despite the time constraint, the task force believes and the Government believe that the detailed information contained in the committee reports represents the most complete and comprehensive overview of Newfoundland forestry ever developed. I might say at this point that the Task Force Repo~t will be released as soon as we can get the printing done.

However, the committee report• were used as a back-up to the general reports and for obvious reasons will not be released but they are large volumes which we can always use for future reference. It is to be clearly understood that it is not the intention of the Government, nor would it be proper, to lay the shortcomings and defects in our present system at the doors of the operating companies. It is rather to present those shortcomings as problems which must be overcome, 764

February 14, 1974 Tape 222 PK - 3 together with areas of new opportunities arising from this study, which must be pursued at the iritiative of Government. 76~

cFebruary 14, 1974. Tape 223 RH - 1 Here then is a

summary of some of the problems as presented by the task force report: As things now stand, one-third of our softwood inventory is over-matured. Because of this, a great deal of timber is being lost to insect, disease and fire. An estimated 600,000 cords are lost annually this way. I might point out that 600,000 cords are capable of supplying any one of the large paper ills that we presently have in this Province. It is imperative that this situation be arrested and it will be a priority of our new Management Plan to set in motion a program for the concentrated removal of over-111ature forest. This must be done.

However, the process of total removal of over-mature stands will take a period of perhaps 30 years. This 30 year period is the time it will take before we get back into a proper cycle of harvesting and management. Considered even more serious is the fact that high volue stands of timber are being depleted at a rate which is considered dangerous. Existing mechanical logging methods do not lend themselves to harvesting low volume stands and small trees. Consequently these stands which were loggable until recently are now being by-passed.

We plan to support,through the Federally funded Forest Institute of Canada, the development of new technology to create economical methods of harvesting low volume stands and the small individual tree. It would be immensely valuable if such technology could be developed, since these low-volume stands represent a quarter of the total merchantable volume in the Province. Another problem presented that has long been a startling statistic in Newfoundland,is that we import more than 70 per cent of the lumber we consume.

Historically, the forest industry here has basically been built around the giant pulp and paper mills. The Task Force Study draws our attention to the fact that there are at least seven locations on the Island where relatively large sawmills are feasible. Two of these,at Roddickton and Gambo,are already underway and another,at Bay d'Espoir, is in the planning stage. 766

February 14, 1974. Tape 223 RH - 2 These seven areas together can produce an estimated 65 million board feet of lumber annually. and more importantly can create a total of approximately 525 new jobs in the mills and in the woods. This is on the Island alone. It is not ~elated to the future potential in Labrador, which as all of us know is fairly vast. There are, of course, more than seven areas where sawmills can be located but there are seven where there are fairly large potentials.

It is calculated that these larger sawmills would effectively reverse the import situation, dropping the percentage of imported lumber to be no more than 30 per cent. We would hope that the percentage here of imported lumber would not be more than 15 per cent to 20 per cent. There are certain dimensions which we cannot produce in this Province and therefore we will continue to import small amounts. The Task Force Study contains an analysis of the "multiplier" effect in employment which derives from the creation of each new job directly in the forest industry.

This analysis breaks out the degree to which a worker in a primary industry requires supportive jobs. In the case of the forest worker, whenever there is a man cutting wood or working in a pulp mill or sawmill, his function requires other hands working in transportation, fuel supply, machine maintenance, mill worker, etc. The results of this analysis indicate that of the various forestry sectors, the sawmill demonstrated the strongest multiplier effect in the income area as well as the largest direct and total in­ duced employment per unit of output.

In general we may conclude that every job in such industries as sawmills and pulp and paper, creates two or more additional jobs in the provincial economy and every wage dollar generates two or more income dollars in other industries in the Province. As I stated earlie~, the basic policy is that Government must undertake the exclusive management planning of our rorest Resources. Apart from the physical rationalization and regulation of the resource as it stands, these plans will include research and development of new 767

February 14, 1974. Tape 223 RH - 3 product. Our trees are largely softwood. 768

February 14, 1974, Tape 224, Pagel -- apb We must seek to diversify and develop, where possible, into hardwood species. Although much of the hardwood, mainly white and yellow birch, is scattered and can only be harvested in conjunction with softwood operations, there are areas of high concentration such as the Stephenville, Gander and Bay d"Espoir regions.

A rising demand for furniture and other hardwood products coupled with a decrease in quality hardwood resources in the U.S., Scandinavia and other parts of Canada, favours development of this resource. ~[y Department has on stream at this moment a tree nursery in Central Newfoundland which is concerned with the development of fast growing, native black spruce. Seedlings from this nursery will be planted on badly burned forest areas which are not regenerating, and eventually on areas heretofore considered barren. The nursery will have a capacity of 10 million seedlings per year, if and when they are are required.

The proposed Management Plan will indeed have the effect of creating new dimensions to our Forest Industry, which will be demanding of new skills and a renewed sense of enterprise in a field which has been static for far too long. For example, some twelve per cent of the unused timber in Newfoundland is considered unextractable because it grows on slopes which are considered excessive. Private industry with the support of Federal grants are presently experimenting with cable systems to overcome this problem, and one such system has been developed which is considered applicable to our terrain.

However, it is likely that more than one kind of system will be required, and it should not be thought inconceivable that this kind of technology could not be developed here. It is imperative that we achieve parity not just in policy, but in management planning and technology, with t~e rest of Canada. Before we progress farther to that part of the policy which concerns enforcement of the proposed management plan, I should like to take just a few moments to reflect on the sociology of the forest worker. 769

February 14, 1974, Tape 224, Page 2 -- apb Traditionally despite the fact that he has achieved wage parity and, in some cases, superiority to similar categories of employment, the forest worker has been regarded as the low man on the totem pole. The work is considered arduous, uninteresting, and bereft of opportunity. This perceived low status, together with the reluctance of the worker to spend time away from his family, has caused difficulty for the industry in attracting new people.

It could be a major benefit of this programme, with its emphasis on management and new technology, that the status of the forest worker will be upgraded, that more high school graduates will see opportunity in the skills required, and the industry generally will shed its unimpressive and static image. There is no doubt that the worker must be provided with a greater incentive than he has now. He must be integrated more meaningfully into the organization for which he works. Now we come to that

section of the proposed policy which sets out to deal with the mechanics of enforcing and financing these plans. As stated earlier it is the position of the Government that the operators who hold tenure of our forest land shall not be considered as having been negligent in their responsibilities. We fully recongize that their method of operation has been constrained by the conditions of the market which they supply. We are also fully aware that the timber resources under control of the Crown have not always been used to the best advantage of the long term interests of the people of this P.rovince.

At this time, I will outline in more specific detail the main points in the proposed Government policy. You will note that I use the term "proposed" policy, since it will be necessary to have legislation enacted by this honourable House in order for Government to implement the policies. The forest resource of the Province can generally be considered in two categories, the large tracts of the forest resource that are held under various tenure arrangements with the two large paper companies and Reid Nfld, Ltd.; and the areas of the Province 770

February 14, 1974, Tape 224, Page 3 -- apb which remain under Crown control. It must be emphasized that the Government's policy of strict management and utilization practices will apply to forest resource in both categories. 771

February 14, 1974 Tape 225 Quite naturally, the mechanics of applying the policy will differ in both cases, however, the end result will be the same. IB-1 The management plans to be devised for the whole Province will not consider the forest resource in isolation. Many factors have to be considered, such as wildlife, agricultural potential, mineral and waterpower potential, recreation, etc. A management plan will not necessarily mean that there will suddenly be requirements to clear out large areas of land.

In fact, in some cases, the reverse may be true in that no one may be allowed to harvest the resource in various areas. This may be due to the immaturity of the timber stands, the necessity of protecting wildlife, protecting a watershed or for numerous other reasons. In areas (and there are many of them) where there are stands of overmature timber, we must make every effort to harvest this resource at the earliest possible date, so that the resource will not be lost to insects, disease or fire.

For the purpose of properly managing the resource, the Province will be divided into approximately thirty-one clearly definable geographic areas. Approximately nineteen of these areas will consist of timber stands now owned by the larger companies. The other twelve areas will conprise the timber held under Crown control. Each one of these areas will be known as a "Management Unit". For each management unit, a comprehensive, detailed, utilization procedure will be worked out. This procedure will include a detailed on-the-ground survey analysis showing the amount and quality of the resource.

The annual allowable cut will be determined. Other factors will be the amount of over-mature timber, the amount of new timber available, the average number of cords per acre, the accessibility of the timber, the size of the logs,to determine whether it is best utilized for lumber or pulpwood or some other use. These detailed plans will be prepared for every one of the approximately thirty-one management units. The detailed utilization procedures devised for each unit will be strictly 772

February 14, 1974 Tape 225 IB-2 enforced. Each area will be assigned a specific staff to ensure that the procedures are followed. I have mentioned previously that the mechanics of applying the policy will differ between company and Crown timber areas. The prospective operators will be presented with the guidelines to be followed and a constant review of the procedures will be made. The Crown timber operators will be issued a cutting permit with the regulations attached and any operator who fails to abide by the regulations will have the permit cancelled.

In the case of the larger companies with ninety-ninety year leases or outright ownership of the timber, the method of enforcing the regulations have to be somewhat different. Here we will use the penalty of taxation to ensure that proper management practices are followed. The companies will be required to submit detailed management plans for specific areas. to my department. The plans submitted will be carefully scrutinized by the staff of the Department and changes, if necessary,can be negotiated with the companies concerned. If the plan be approved, the area or areas can be declared managed land.

These management plans may be for periods of five to twenty years, but in any case they will be subject to annual review. In the case of managed land, the companies will be subject to a basic minimum tax based on the number of acres of productive forest land in the management unit or a small percentage of the net present value of the timber.

If the companies do not submit an acceptable management plan or for some reason are not capable of practicing good forest harvesting methods (for instance,not harvesting the annual sustainable yield if markets are available) then the company will be liable for a much higher rate of taxation on the specific area or areas concerned, In short, we will use two levels of taxation, a high level on unmanaged land and a minimum,basic tax on managed land.

The minimum tax will be calculated to provide sufficient funds for adequate protection of the forest resource, It is the Government's intention to take full responsibility for the protection 773

February 14, 1974 Tape 225 of the resource for the whole Province . Technically,at the present time, the companies are responsible for protection on all their limits. lt must be the position of Government that those operators who have a long term commitment to Newfoundland will benefit by this program in the degree to -which they co-operate with the polic y and enter into its spirit. lB-3 ~e must point out that the total Crown charges,including fire protection costs and costs paid by companies on Crown ·land licenses, including 774

February 14, 1974 Tape no. 226 Page 1 - MRW purchase price, federal income tax, and provincial taxes, have been significantly light in the Province of Newfoundland. Here I cite some of the comparative figures broken down to cost per cord: At the present time the total Crown charges to the companies by the Province of Newfoundland amounts to $.30 per cord. In Quebec in comparision, the amount is $4.00 per cord. In New Brunswick it is $4.24. In Nova Scotia it is $2.00. In Ontario it is $3.50. Under the new policy and new taxation method the charges will still be substantially below that of any Province listed here.

We are talking in the vicinity of below the $1.00 mark, which still puts them in a substantially favourable position. It is perhaps appropriate here to quote a few statistics to indicate the potential of our forest resource:- The present resource - all species, to separate the Island part of the Province from the Labrador section. •On the Island we have 117,000,000 cords. On the Labrador

section there are 39,000,000 cords estimated. The estimate on Labrador is not quite as accurate as the estimate on the Island because the global inventory has not been completed in great detail. However, we have a total of 156,000,000 cords of timber in the Province. Approximately 90 per cent are stands with five or more cords acre, which is considered merchantable timber.

The startling statistic here is that approximately 37 per cent of that timber is over mature The estimated annual allowable cut in all species - here we get into the area where we estimate the amount that can be cut each year and still sustain the forest in perpetuity. On the Island portion, 1,900,000 cords per year; Labrador 513,000 cords per year, for a total of 2,413,000 cords per year, which can be cut in perpetuity, if we have the proper management and utilization techniques. 775

February 14, 1974 Tape no, 226 Page 2 Now we look at that which is being utilized at the present time. We have taken a ten year average: Bowaters, 441,000 cords; Price, 327,000 cords; various sawmills, approximately, 100,000 cords for a total of 868,000 cords of. wood. Comparing that with the annual allowable cut of 2,413,000 cords, you will note that we have quite a surplus. The annual allowable cut estimated on the company holdings are as follows: Bowaters Holdings, it is a fair estimate, they can or they could cut, 703,000 cords a year; Price, 509,000 cords; Reid, 8,800 cords.

It should be pointed out here, of course, that most of the Reid timber land has been farmed out in one way or another to Bowaters artd Price, That gives a total annual allowable cut on the company holdings alone of 1,220,800 cords per year, compared with the 768,000 cords cut per year for the past ten years. This means that on company limits alone, we have a surplus of 452,000 cords per year. Approximately 600,000 cords per year is being lost due to over-maturity, disease, insects, fire and other disease.

We have an estimated annual allowable cut in our hardwood inventory (this is on both company and Crown units) of 250,000 cords per year. These figures clearly indicate that the Province has the potential to supply fibre to the three existing paper mills, plus a much expanded sawmill industry in perpetuity, if proper management is practiced. That is the factor that always enters into the picture, proper management and utilization. The institution of this policy will, of course, mean that we will have to do extensive work with many of the existing small operators to make them more efficient.

They will need to adapt to new methods, acquire different machinery in same cases 776

February 14, 1974 Tape No. 227 NM - 1 and develop new markets. In this the stafff of the Forest Service will work closely with the Departments of Rural Development and Industrial Development to ensure that the sawmill industry is expanded to its fullest potential. The new policy will also require a greatly increased staff the Forest Service. The increased cost of the extra staff, however, will be more than offset by the increased advantages to the Province. I have not been able at this time to outline every specific detail but I am positive these will be brought out in later discussions. I have, however, outlined the new policy in general terms. In

summary, I have attempted to outline,for the House this afternoon, the situation as it exists in our forests,which led Government to the creation of the task force to whose thorough and far-reaching report we owe the strength of the legislation shortly to be introduced. We are indeed fortunate, as you will agree, that the relatively satisfactory condition of most of our forest is almost entirely the result of natural regeneration and the goodwill of the major operating ~imit holders on the island.

We are also fortunate that the ecological condition of our woodlands is also relatively satisfactory, The proposed legislation will also introduce new regulations to protect wildlife, water and other vulnerable aspects of the forest but, principally, it is the long-term goal of bringing the productive forest lands of the Province under sustained yield management for which the policy is designed.

The Minister of the department will have the power, through the threat of a heavy tax burden, to determine the size and shape of management units, to determine and set the annual allowable cuts and to enforce sound forest management practices throughout the Province. To restate: A Forest Policy must aim at a rational exploitation of the forest resource as the principle of the greatest good to the greatest possible number of people. I submit, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of Government, that the legislation shortly to be tabled will indeed pursue and achieve this purpose. Thank you. 777

Februar y 14 , 1 974 Tape No. 227 NM - 2 PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. George's. MR. A. DUNPHY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of some 1,700 students in the St. George's Area. The prayer of the petition outlines the great heed for the Government of Newfoundland, th·rough their M.H.A., for consideration of stadium for the St. George's, Stephenville Crossing, Robinsons, Fl.at Bay and ST. Fintan's Area. Now these 1,700 students in co-operation with an adult recreation connnittee, St. George's Area, pledge thier support to this worthwhile venture. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to point out at this time, to this ·House, to the people concerned, who will be concerned I should hope, and can do something about this drastic situation that exists in my distt:ict, in St. George's recreationally, the need for such a facility has existed for a great m1111be·r of years and th~k God my government has over the last few years been giving great consideration to the recreational needs of the youth of this coun .try. I hope that now when they receive thii:; petition and also the accompanying brief which has been enqorsed by not only the 778

February 14, 1974 Tape 228 PK - 1 Recreation Committee of St, George's but also the Stephenville Parks and Recreation Committee; The R.C. School Board: The Department of Social Services; The Area Guidance Council; The Magistrate for the Area; The Councils of Stephenville Crossing/St. George's; The Stephenville Lions Club; The Stephenville Crossing Lions Club; The St. George's Lions Club; St. Michael's Elementary School; The Integrated High School at St. George's; The St. Joseph's High School , St. George's; St. Jude's High School, St. Fintan's; St. Anne's at Flat Bay; The Elementary School at St.

George's; Cassidy Elementary School at St. Fintan's; The Reverend Roderick T. White, Stephenville Crossing; The Royal Canadian Legion; The Royal Navy Cadets, St. George's. This is a very serious proposal. I do not think I have to elaborate on it further. The need is there. It has been there for sometime. I certainly hope that the minister responsible for this department will go over this brief carefully, to see the proposals put forward and certainly give it his consideration and that it will be implemented this year.

I would like for this petition, Mr, Speaker, to be placed upon the table and sent along to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the member for Bell Island. MR. s. A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the honourable the member for St. George's can now add amongst the names that he read out there as we are supporting this petition on behalf of 1,700 students in St. George's, he can add the name of the Liberal Opposition in Newfoundland,with the Canadian Legion, The Athletic Association, The Lions Club and all the other organizations.

He can now add the name of the Liberal Opposition in Her Majesty's House of Assembly. Now, Sir, this is a rather unusual petition. It is unique in this way that most petitions, Sir, are presented to this honourable House are usually signed by voters, in this case, I would assume from what the honourable member said that most of the signatures on the petition were not of voting age. AN HON. MEMBER: All students. 779

February 14, 1974 Tape 228 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: All students. Well, Sir, I will say that all the students who signed this petition are to be congratulated for taking the initiative in trying to get a stadium in the District of St. George's. I was out in St. George's District, Sir, a C<"'• ·ole of times last year. I had the privilege of being greeted on one occasion by the honourable member in the airport in Stephenville on my way down to the District of St. George's. One of the big complaints that I heard in that district, Sir, was that the young people, the youth of that district had nothing to do.

I think the honourable member made a good case this afternnon in their behalf. Si.r, for a government who does not have enough funds to get conies of a forest report run off and they have had it in their possession now for some time, I do not know how the honourable member is going to be able to squeeze a few dollars out of the Minister of Finance to get a stadium built out in the Distrcit of St. George's. Unless. Sir, they can get come contributions like the honourable junior member for Harbour ~fain the other day. AN l!ON. MEMBER: The senior member. MR.

NEARY: No, the junior member dug his hands down in his own pocket, Sir, AN HON. MEMBER: He is the senior member - 'lR. NEARY: Well junior or senior, I do not care what he is, dug down in his o"m pocket and managed to find $2,500 to donate for a stadium on the south shore of Conception Bay. Unless, Sir, - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. NR. NEARY: I am not suggesting, Sir, that the member for St.

George's District do the same but there are a few people on the other side, Sir, I air looking at one right now that is quite able to dig down in his pocket and cough up a few dollars to try to get this badly needed stadium in the District of St. George's. The honourable member who I am looking at, the Hon. the Minister of Finance down on the Burin Peninsula sometime 780

Feburary 14, 1974 Tape 228 ago lashed out against people who were looking for stadia. AN P.ON . }!EMBER: Inaudible, PK - 3 . MR. NEARY: The big problem the member is going to have, Sir, is to try and persuade his colleague, the ~inister of Finance to reverse his policy that he announced down on the Burin Peninsula and give that badly needed stadium to the youth in St. George's. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the member for Port au Port. MR. F. R. STAGG: Mr, Speaker, I think it would be remiss of me go without supporting the petition so ably presented by the member for St.

George's and so ably supported by the member for Bell Island, There are many students and adults too in the St. George's Area who are getting shortchanged in the recreational field. The stadium at Stephenville which was placed there in 1967 has added a great deal to the attraction of our area. I think it is only fitting that the Town of St. George's or that area which is really the cradle of civilization and culture on the West Coast should have this contribution made to it, because it was historically the area that all development began on the West Coast. So, Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the petition presented by the member for St. George's. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon, Minister of Social Services. HON. A. J, MURPHY: (MINISTER OF SOCIAL SERVICES): Mr. Speaker, I could not let this opportunity pass in standing to support this petition, I speak not, Sir, frow a political point of view or any other point of view, I care not whether the Minister of Finance has money or has not money. I speak only, Sir, of the feeling that we as government should have for the people, particularly the young people in different parts of the province.

In my forty years, Sir, association with recreation given freely and I am not looking for praise, it is just an actual fact, in my twenty years as President and Vice-President of the Newfoundland Amateur Baseball Association. In my dealings, Sir, with all the youth of this province 781

February 14, 1974 Tape 228 PK - 4 from St. John's to Port au Port and I am very happy to see the Deputy Speaker is a product of the N.A.B.A. I have found none other, Sir, than the oeople in that Particular area of Stephenville Crossing and St. George's more interested, Sir, in doing something for the young people. To the hest of their ability, Sir, with the funds that they have available themselves.

I could mention many names, Sir, about outstanding citizens in that area who want to do somethinp. for the young people, Sir, J will say this that my government, the p;overnment that I was very nroud to represent here have a grE-at feeling for peoµle, Sir, human feeling.

In supporting this uetition, Sir, I.know and I can state without any douht, without any stupidity or without any other foolishness. ln standi n." to support this petition, Sir, I know the need, Sir, 1 have gone through, Sir, 1 have vis5ted our welfare office at Stephenville C:rossing in that particular area, Sir, and I know -what the young pPonle of this province want. It is not stupid statements on the floor of this House of Assembly but facilities, Sir, to get them off the street. This government have already taken a joint step forward, Sir, as far as stadia are concerned.

They helped them with light and power and all the rest of it, helped them pay some of their rates. We did not go around, Sir, in October -with S500 cheques to every individual asking tl,em to start a recreational association. We did not do that, Sic, pure hvpocrisy, Sir. We did not try and buy any votes or anything else. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. "IR. MURPHY: So I support, Sir, quite wholeheartedly - AN HON • ME~IBER : Inaudible. '.!R. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. MURPHY: These are the gentlemen, Sir, that says "We pledged the Liberal Opposition to support this." What are they doing now? What are they doing, Mr.

Speaker, I ask you? I hope the press notes that they booed me and ridiculed me when I tried to support in some kind of a sensible manner, Sir, thi~ ,etition. So I can only say, Sir, that if we can, if the dollars are available after fixing the blind hill in 782

February 14, 1974 Tape 228 PK - 5 St. Barbe North, after doing the .water and sewerage everywhere else, after getting another $30 million to put into the welfare programme that Mr. Harrington and "~r. Neary" are talking about, that we will, Sir, that we will do everything in our power for the member for St. George's I can assure you to get one hundred per cent backing from this"Moores Human Government." Thank you, very much. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR . SPEAKER: Order please! The Hon. the Minister of Finance. HON. J. C • CROSBIE ( I.I.MISTER OF FINANCE) : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a ministerial statement if there is no objection. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR . CROSBIE: The honourable gentleman does mind for that - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: It is only to give some information, if it is in order? MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. MR. CROSBIE: Mr . Speaker, I do not have copies of this here, it is just hot of the presses. I would like to announce on behalf of the Linerboard Limited that they entered into an agreement with Newfoundland Forest Products Li~ited, to purchase from Newfoundland Forest Products Limited the sawmills and chattels 783

February 14, 1974. Tape 229 RH - 1 and other assets of Newfoundland Forests Products Limited located at Stephenville and have acquired from them their right to cut timber for four separate lots of timberlands located in the Stephenville area. These were areas that the Newfoundland Forests Products Limited had the right to cut the timber on, had acquired them from Bowaters. Newfoundland Forests Products Limited has surrendered the rights of those four timber lots back to Bowaters who have entered in an agree­ ment with Labrador Linerboard Limited so that Labrador Linerboard Limited can cut on those four areas.

Crown timber licences 181 and 189, which are inland from Harmon Field: Reid Block 21, which is inland from Harmon Field; Reid Lot 201, which is inland from Point au Mal and Reid Lot 226, which is inland from St George's Bay, all of those lots were under the control of Bowater. It is expected by Labrador Linerboard Limited that they should be able to cut at least 200,000 cords of wood on those particular areas in question.

The wood is located within thirty or forty miles of Stephenville so the wood should be cut and delivered to the men at a very economic price particularly in reference to wood bought elsewhere on the Island and certainly with reference to wood brought down from Labrador. It is not the intention, Mr. Speaker, of Labrador Linerboard Limited to start the sawmill in operation at Stephenville. The location is not suitable.

If someone else wish to try it there, they would be amenable to suggestions or if anyone wish to buy the sawmill assets to use elsewhere in Newfoundland they would be quite ready to listen to proposals on that. The amount to be paid to Bowaters by Newfoundland Forest Products Limited by Labrador Linerboard Limited is $1 million. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Part of it will and part of it will be used for operating. The arrangement we have made is that Newfoundland Forests Products Limited will use what is necessary to continue the mill operating in Hawkes Bay

February 14, 1974. Tape 229 RH - 2 and will advise us of the balance that they do not feel they need to carry on there. So, I am not sure. The $1 million can only be used to continue the operation in Hawkes Bay. Otherwise, it has to be repaid, the Government loan, that is $500,000 to be paid now, $250,000 on June land $250,000 on January 2, next year. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: The position on Hawkes Bay, Mr. Speaker, is that they are cutting wood in the area. They are now cutting wood in the area. chey plan to resume operations in the mill in the spring.

They are quite optimistic that they are going to have a good year. They have acquired new management, a new manager, a new woods manager, So, we are hoping that they will have a profitable year this year. NOTICE OF MOTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Forests and Agriculture, HON. E. MAYNARD (Minister of Agriculture & Forests): Mr. Speaker, I !?ive notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill,"An Act to Bring Certain Lands Under Proper Management And To Impose Varying Degrees of Taxation In Respect Thereof." MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. HON.

GERALD OTTEMHEIMER (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I shall on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills: A bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Department of Education Act," A bill, "An Act to Amend the Education and Teacher Training Act" and A bill, "An Act Further to Amend the College of Fisheries Act." MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. MR. W. G. DAWE (Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I shall ask leave to introduce: A bill, "An Act to Amend the Pesticides Control Act".

A bill, "An Act to Amend the Insurance Adjusters Act". A bill, "An Act to Amend the Department of Provincial Affairs and Environment Act, 1973". 785

February 14, 1974. Tape 229 RH - 3 HON. A. J . MURPHY (Minister of Social Assistance): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce: A bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Social Assistance Act, 1971." A bill, "An Act to Amend Maintenance Orders Enforcement Act." ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. S. NEARY (Bell Island): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Hon. the Premier. I wonder if the Hon. the Premier would indicate to the House when work will actually commence on the expansion to the Grand Falls hospital? HON. F. D. MOORES (Premier): Order paper. MR.

ROBERTS: The Premier cannot direct that a question be put on the order paper, Your Honour can. The Premier can ask for it to go on the Order Paper or he can take it as notice. Mr. Speaker, I rise on a perfectly genuine point of order. If my point be incorrect, Your Honour will of course so rule: but the Premier and no member can direct that a question be placed on the Order Paper, Sir, That is my submission. The Premier can take a question as notice or he can say that he will not answer it or ask that it be put on the Order Paper. Either, I would submit, is in order.

Or Your Honour, in your capacity as our presiding officer, can say that in Your Honour's opinion this matter is one that would be more fitting on the Order Paper as a question than it would be as a question here; but I will not have the Premier, the House Leader nor anybody else making statements that are properly the prerogrative of Your Honour as our Speaker. MR MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I think what the Opposition ought to learn is that the ministry need not answer questions that are put before it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: We know that. MR.

MARSHALL: When the Hon. the Premier was saying, as has been said from time imnnemorial, in every legislature of this nature that a question was more properly put on the Order Paper or Order Paper, he was meaning 786

February 14, 1974. Tape 229 RH - 4 it was not of sufficient urgency so to be put on and this is perfectly a proper observation to be made with respect to the oral question period. This oral question period has existed for two years and was resurrected by this Government from the days of 1930. MR. ROBERTS : If I may make a further comment.

The House leader for the other side has merely made the point that I did not make,that the Premier, apparently, was giving Your Honour direction, which I am sure Your Honour would neither accept nor request,that the Premier who ap­ parently cannot speak for himself on these matters. If the Premier asks the matter be put on the Order Paper, that is one thing but according to the House leader, Sir, the Premier was directing that it be put on the Order Paper and that was my point of order. The Premier has no right to give any direction of that sort, Sir. MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, if 1 might say so, Sir, to the point of order,what I was suggesting was that if the member from Bell Island want an answer he put it on the Order Paper. MR SPEAKER: I am sure all honourable members are aware of the procedure with regard to questions, whether they should be answered, put on the order paper or taken as notice. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will try my luck again. Will the Hon. the Premier indicate to the House if it is the intention of his Govern­ ment to send a delegation from Newfoundland to attend the Federal­ Provincial Energy Conference scheduled to be held in March? HR.

MOORES: Scheduled in March? Tentatively, yes. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I heard the Hon. the Premier, this morning, comment about Alberta. He was disappointed Alberta was not going to send anybody. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Sir, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Energy, the valedictorian. Would the schoolboy debater, Mr. Speaker, would the schoolboy debater indicate to the House whether 781

February 14, 1974. Tape 229 RH - 5 or not, Sir, whether or not, Mr. Speaker, poor old Commodore Mining are going to get their amendments this year so they can protect the interests of their 250 Newfoundland shareholders in the Company in this Province? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR, NEARY: No, but the honourable minister is. HON. LEO D. BARRY (Minister of Mines & Energy): Mr.

Speaker, our Government states clear our policy of not extending the Consession Agreements entered into by the previous administration, the terms of which were woefully inadequate, were an inexcusable mismanagement of the resources of this Province and we have made our views and our policy known to the principals of Commodore Mining. We have co-operated with them in trying to see if there is anything consistent with our policy that can be done to assist them in carrying on the exploration programmes they indicate they would like to carry on.

However, we will not engage as has been the custom in the past in favoritism. Our Government will not engage in making special deals with people because of lobbying or because they come and request favors but we will develop a sound, rational mining policy for the Province and we will develop one which will be uniform and applicable to all. 788

February 14, 1974, Tape 230, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: When we get around to Scrivener, Mr. Speaker, we will find out what kind of back room deals are made. MR. SPEAKER: Order please: AN HON. ~1EMBER: And Trizec. MR. NEARY: And Trizec. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct ••. MR. ROBERTS: And John Colboume. MR. NEARY: Not forgetting George McLean. I would like to direct a question, Sir, to the Minister of Transportation and Communications: I have been asked so many questions by people wanting to know whether they can take out the anti-freeze and devices out of their cars or not.

I would like to ask the minister to clarify this matter, Sir, because there are a lot of people who want to conserve gas by removing the anti-pollution equipment in their cars. Is this permissible in Newfoundland, Mr . Speaker? I would like for the minister to make some sort of a statement to clarify this matter. MR. MURPHY: Take the honourable member out of the House. That should do it. Hor. T.V.HICKEY (Minister of Trans portation and CoDDDunicati ons): Mr. Speaker, control of pollution is under the jurisdiction of the Department of Provincial Affairs and Environment. I know of no regulation or

section of the Highway Traffic Act which prevents anyone from doing it. I think this is what I said to the news media when they asked me. That is about all I can say except when we solve the problem of pollution in the House, Mr. Speaker, then we can solve the other pollution. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Provincial Affairs indicate to the House if there is anything to bar people from removing these anti~pollution devices or can they just go ahead and rip them out? HON. W.G.DAWE (Minister of Provincial Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I certainly would not recoDDDend that anybody rip them out unless they want a lot of trouble on their hands. We do not have any 789

February 14, 1974, Tape 230, Page 2 -- apb legislation which requires a person to have the anti-pollution devices on their cars. The federal people have it but we have not adopted the legislation as have one or two of the other provinces like Ontario and I think, Quebec, if I am not mistaken. If people want to remove them there is just no restriction, they are not breaking any law. MR. SPEAKER: The gentleman from Labrador North: MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the }iinister of Finance.

With the Labrador Linerboard acquiring the rights of Newfoundland Forest Products and the potential harvest of two hundred thousand cords of wood in the Stephenville Area, I would like for the minister to indicate to the House whether this will mean the curtailment in the wood harvesting in Labrador? The second part of the question, Mr. Speaker, will they continue to import wood from the mainland? MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the first part of the question; this does not, of course, have any affect on the amount of wood cut in Labrador and needed or required by the linerboard mill which remains as much as we can get up to two hundred thousand or two hundred and fifty thousand cords. There is no change in that. With respect to the importation of wood into the island from the mainland or from outside the island part of the province, I cannot give you the exact figure. The figures were released in December but I believe it was six thousand odd or seven thousand cords during the last calendar year.

The government, of course, and Labrador Linerboard have no desire to import any wood to the island if we can get sufficient for the linerboard mill on the island and from Labrador. At the present time that is not the case. We canµot and therefore, if we have an opportunity at any time to buy some wood from outisde the province, we will. It is certainly going to be several years yet before there is an adequate supply of wood for the mill particularly if production reaches its full capacity. 790

February 14, 1974, Tape 130, Page 3 - apb HR. WOODWARD: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker; to the Minister of Finance: Is it the intention of the government to harvest the full production of wood in Lbarador? According to the report here it says that some five hundred and thirteen thousand cords a year. Can the minister indicate to the House if this is the intention of this government? MR. CROSBIE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the position is this and it has been stated and restated in the House and outside the House that it is not possible, in the opinion of the people who have advised us, to cut and deliver from the Lake Melville Area, at the very maximum more than two hundred and fifty thousand cords of wood a year.

It is just not physically possible to transport any more than that, to cut and transport it to Stephenville or the Island of Newfoundland at all, in addition to which we are having difficulty achieving even the objective of two hundred thousand cords a year for several reasons one of which is the difficulty in attracting t6 the Labrador Area sufficient loggers and keeping them there wher they get there. If we can achieve two hundred thousand cords of wood from the Labrador Area next year we will be very pleased and it will take every possible effort to do that. MR. WOODWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable ~.inister of Transportation and Communications. Could the minister inform the House if his government or his department along with the Government of Quebec have met with the federal people on the proposal concerning the Trans-Labrador Highway? MR. RICKEY: Mr. Speaker, we are still awaiting a meeting to be set up with Mr. Marchand and Mr. Jamieson.

Apparently they have not been in town on the same day and both provinces are having trouble arranging that meeting._ Both provinces are in contact with the offices of the two respective gentlemen, I understand in my own case twice a week and in the case of my counterpart in Quebec, I understand two or three times a week since we met in his pro~i?ce. 791

February 14, 1974, Tape 230, Page 4 -- apb This will continue and we will persist until we get a meeting. Until we do there is nothing new to report. I might say to the honourable gentleman in response to what he allegedly said publicly; that the province get involved in this project on its own, that this is a ridiculous suggestion because we could not possibly put the kind of money into the construction or even the start of the Trans-Labrador Highway. What money we would spend would be really going nowhere. If we put ten million dollars into it, for example, it would take - MR. WOODWARD: It is already there. MR.

HICKEY: Pardon! MR. WOODWARD: It is already there. lt goes from Goose Bay to Churchill Falls. MR. HICKEY: What did he start? MR. WOODWARD: Two million dollars to upgrade it. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. HICKEY: He started a cow path in Churchill Falls. MR. NEARY: Goose Bay to Churchill we already started. MR. HICKEY: Yes! Sure! Like he started everything else and fouled it up in briefings. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order please! MR. HICKEY: Why did he not finish it? ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Address in Reply: I think the honourable member for Bonavista North ••• AN HON. MEMBER: Order please! MR.

SPEAKER: I think the honourable member for Bonavista North adjourned the Address in Reply last night. MR. PAUL S. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I will first say how happy I am to see the member for Labrador West again in this honourable House with us. I trust that he has shaken off his illness and we sincerely wish him the best of health in the future. May I also say, Mr. Speaker, how very delighted and 792

February 14, 1974, Tape 230, Page 5 -- apb happy I am to congratulate the new member of this honourable Assembly, the Member for Hermitage. I assure him that his success in Hermitage is only a tinkling of greater things to come. MR. W. N.ROWE: Hear! Hear! MR. THOMS: Especially for the honourable members of this honourable House, especially for the members on this side of the House. MR. NEARY: Hear: Hear! MR. THOHS: I believe the display that he put on in the District or Hermitage is indeed a noble one and we look forward to a contribution from the Member from Hermitage, Mr. Speaker, that will be second to none.

Hr. Speaker, let me, before really getting into the teeth of my talk this afternoon, just say a few words of advice to the Minister of Social Services. On Tuesday of this week we saw a great display of emotion by the minister as he apparently entertained his fellow colleagues on that side of the House at the expense of the unfortunate people in this province who are on welfare. MR. NEARY: Hear! Hear! Hear!. Hear' Hear! NR. THOMS: It was a disgraceful act, ~,r. Speaker, the most disgraceful that .•. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order! Is the honourable minister rising on a point of order? MR.

HURPHY: If anybody says in this House that I entertained the House at the expense of the poor unfortunate people, Mr. Speaker, he should be asked to take that back. MR. THOMS: That is not a point of order. NR. MURPHY: Personal privilege or something? MR. NEARY: Sit down, Gas'em. MR. SPEAI<Ek: Order please! Order please! MR. MURPHY: Now "Scum." MR. SPEAKER: Order please! 793

February 14, 1974 Tape no. 231 Page 1 - MW _AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MURPHY: MR. W. ROWE: Who brings in the personalities? To a point of personal privilege. Oh, to a point of personal privilege. Perhaps the honourable minister might state what he intends to do about the point of privilege he has raised, Mr. Speaker. If it is a point of order which he raised, which he said he raised, then if I may speak to it, I would like to say that it was no point of order. There is a difference of opinion between two honourable members and there is no point of order. MR. MARSHALL: On that point of order, Mr.

Speaker: It is a point of order. The language that was used by the Hon. member for Bonavista North is a type of language which was insulting and derogatory of the Minister of Social Services, going far beyond what you might call fair comment of the exercise of his office and his ministry and as such, it should not have been uttered by the Hon. member for Bonavista North. He ought to be asked to withdraw it. He ought to withdraw it. AN HON, MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: What about the word, "scum7" Order please!

The Chair considers that the matter under discussion is not a point of order nor a point of privilege but that it is really a difference of opinion between two honourable members. I would advise the honourable members to be careful in choosing their words when they are speaking. MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I agree with your ruling. Now, Mr. Speaker, I think the display that was exercised here by the Minister of Social Services - AN HON. MEMBER: Excellent! Excellent! MR. THOMS: It was excellent, sure!

But it was certainly at the expense of the people of this province who, because of his own government's inaction, find themselves today on welfare in this province. I think it was disgraceful to stand up in this Assembly and insult a portion of the people of our province who are on welfare. 794

February 14, 1974 Tape no. 231 Page 2 He only stated a few cases. These apparently were possibly right in his own district. MR. MURPHY: Does the honourable member support them? MR. THOMS: No, I do not support them. I still do not agree with the minister making fun of them at the expense of the people. MR.SPEAKER: Order please! MR. THOMS: It is disgraceful! MR. NEARY: The innocent suffer for the guilty - ridiculing all welfare recipients. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR.

THOMS: I am quite sure, Mr, Speaker, that when the times comes, and it will nQt be too long now, that those very same people, with a vast majority of the other people of this province, will show quite plainly and clearly how they disagree with the honourable minister, This, Mr. Speaker, is smearing the character of a large percentage of our population. ls that what a government is. for? Is that what a minister is for? He should resign. He has no business in that portfolio. If the Premier had any common sense at all, he would boot him out, like he did two previous cabinet ministers. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MURPHY: Now we have Thoms, Neary and Harrington. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, Thoms, Neary and Harrington may be outstanding personalities but the minister will eventually find himself on the outs(period) MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible), MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, did you ever see such an honourable bunch so jittery, so jumpy? What is wrong? tranquilizer? 795 Did you not take your

February 14, 1974 Tape 232 IB-1 The lies of the day "~ky Boy". They forgot their wine today, Mr. Speaker. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: They had too much before they came out. MR. HICKEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. "They forgot their wine"- I have sat here and I am absolutely fed right up to the teeth listening to this - SOME HONOURABLE MEMBER: My son, you got an hour and a half: MR HICKEY: Listening to this innuendo, charges by innuendo. I am standing on a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

If the honourable gentleman does not know the Rules of the House he should read them - he takes his seat while a point of order is beinr raised. My point of order, Mr. Speaker, is that those remarks are derogatory against this administration, against every single honourable member that sits on this side of the House. I ask the honourable gentleman to withdraw it. I do not need any wine and there are many over here like me who do not need it. Does he speak about him­ self? MR. MURPHY: lie is enough to drive you wacky. He did not ask me to withdraw himself. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: We would prefer it. MR.

HICKEY: If the honourable gentleman has any guts, get up and take back the statement. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: I would refer the honourable member for Bonavista North to Beauchesne, page 131,

section two of Standing Order 155, in which Bourinot gives examples of unparliamentary phrases and goes on to give the whole history of them: One is that he has acted basely and from base motives. I think that the honourable member for Bonavista North was straying very far from the Address in Reply and if he continue with such statements in the future he will certainly be asked to retract them. MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I again agree with your ruling and accept it. 796

February 14, 1974 Tape 232 IB-2 Now, Mr. Speaker, the mover of the Address in Reply; I was very interested in one cf the comments that he made when he said that for the first time in Newfoundland's history or words to this effect, that the government of the day was run on a businesslike manner. It is a very interesting statement indeed, Mr. Speaker, and I think we should examine it very closely. First of all, we sh0uld try to distinguish the difference between a business and a government. Mr.

SpeakEr, a business is something that is set up by individuals or an individual with the sole purpose of producing something whether it be a product or a service and selling that product or service so that he may acquire a profit. In other words, Mr. Speaker, the sole purpose of any business is to make a profit. That is if you have $100 you spend it so that when you get your return you can come up with $100 plus others. Many businesses make a profit and many do not, A business is for the sole purpose of making a profit. Mr. Speaker, a government is not set up for this sole purpose of making a profit.

It is set up for the sole purpose of serving the people of our province,and profit does not come into it. Any honourable member of this House who thinks that we should run this government as a business, has no business in this government and no business in this honourable House. Government is a service and not a business. This is all that is wrong with this honourable crowd across the way, Mr. Speaker, If something does not pay, they do not do it and that is why they have not done anything for two years. Not one thing have they done for two years. The most obvious do-nothing government in this country. MR.

NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would like for Your Honour to remind honourable members of the House, Sir, that they are not allowed to speak in this honourable HousP unless they are in their own seats and especially when there is a member speaking, Sir. Would Your Honour remind the member for Bonavista South, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island of course is quite 797

February 14, 1974 Tape 232 IB-3 correct. The member for Bonavista South has violated two rules, one of which is that he may not speak while another member has the floor and the other is that he may not speak while he is 798

Feburary 14, 1974 Tape No. 233 NM - 1 not in his own place in the house. I am sure that he will observe that time honoured-rule in the future. MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is too bad that these honourable members will not be around long enough to learn the rules of this honourable House. So, Mr.

Speaker, I want to repeat again and I want to emphasize to the members across the way that the government of this House was elected by the people of tnis province to serve the people of this province and not to run this government as a business for to do so would not be in the best interests of the people of this province. So, Mr. Speaker, I tnst and pray that the thinking of this honourable crowd across the way will change and they will think more along the lines of getting service to the people of Newfoundland, rather than trying to make a profit from the people of Newfoundland. If they cannot do this, Mr.

Speaker, they are incompetent and the very fact that they recognize that they are running this province as a business indicates their incompetence. If they cannot at all serve the people of Newfoundland then let them resign. Let them call an election and see if the people of this province approve of their form of government. Let us see what the people have to say about it. We have had two years now of doing nothing. MR. MORGAN: Give it back to the Liberals who will stick it. MR. THOMS: Caucus dinners down in the, what is it, the Act III Restaurant? MR. NEARY: That is right. MR.

THOMS: $517 to the expense of the taxpayers of this province. MR. NEARY: $9,000 down in the dining room downstairs. MR. THOMS: Newfoundland's Miniature Watergatei and how many more Watergates do we have hidden in the estimates? How many more? MR. MORGAN: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: This is not a personal attack. I attacked no one. I say that this government is misusing the funds of this p·rovince and that 799

February 14, 1974 Tape No. 233 NM - 2 is concrete proof of it. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Listen to old conflict of interest over there. We will get around to that minister there later on. Water and sewerage over in his district, they will find out. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: Just imagine, Mr. Speaker, you would almost think every honourable gentleman across the way has the worms or something. They cannot stand still in their seat. They cannot even sit down. MR. SPEAKER (MR. STAGG): Order please. The honourable member has the right to be heard in silence.

Honourable members to my left while they may wish to interject certain comments in the honourable member's speech do not have the right to do so. They have the right to speak in the Address in Reply and while the honourable member has the floor he has the right to be heard in silence. If honourable members wish to interrupt, they may interrupt on a point of order but not otherwise. MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, this government across the way, before they were elected they were talking about plans and priorities and after they were elected they talked about plans and priorities and after over two years in office, Mr. Speaker, they are still talking about plans and priorities. Mr. Speaker, let me tell the gentlemen across the way exactly what the plans and priorities of their government should be and also may I indicate to them what the needs of our people of Newfoundland are today.

The basic needs of I would say eighty per cent of our population today outside of possibly th~ larger centres of our province are still the needs of good roads, water and sewer systems. These are the two basic needs of our province today. We are people, Mr. Speaker, all throughout our province, both in the Labrador portion and on the island portion 800

February 14, 1974 Tape No. 234 NM - 1 who have not got a drop of water fit for human consumption, not a drop. We have towns in my district and in almost every outport district in our province which have not got water fit to consume Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask this honourable crowd what they are doing about it? I would like to find out what their plans are. They have been talking plans and priorities for two years.

Have they been sitting down in some basement room in Confederation Building and trying to figure out where they are going to put water and sewer this year7 In the last year the Liberal Administration were in office, Mr. Speaker, I believe it was thirty-six projects that were under­ taken or started. Last year, Mr. Speaker, after two years of office, this government started the grand total of four project, just four measley water and sewer projects. Disgra~eful, Mr. Speaker! MR. NEARY: Resign. MR. THOMS: How incompeten 't can they be? How neglectful can they be? How,in the name of heavens: Mr.

Speaker, can they try to cunvince me that they are representing the people when they are doing absolutely nothing for the people. Mr. Speaker, between the years 1961 and 1971, there were in my district fifteen water and sewer projects. These were started as fast as the towns were incorporated and as fast as the projects were requested. But, Mr. Speaker, in this last three years we have had quite a number of additions to the incorporated areas in my district, quite a number of sections of communities who were not previously incorporated have become incorporated and have all, all of them, Mr.

Speaker, requested by one form or other from this government that assistance be given in obtaining water and sewer programmes for their areas. Mr. Speaker, I would like to run down a list of these requests so that they will be placed upon the records of this House. Most of them, Mr. Speaker, have been brought to the attention of government by petitions that have been presented to this honourable House. 801

February 14, 1974 Tape ~o. 234 NM - 2 T~aytown requested water and sewer, Mr. Speaker, ou May 4, 1972. This is a newly incorporated town. Glove rtown, north and south, the center

section of Glovercown was previously incorporated. The town council requested, and they placed a petition in the office of the minister in 1972 for water and sewer programmes. I presented this honourable House with a petition on May 4, 1972 for water and sewer for Glovertown North. Middle Brook North, Mr. Speaker, I presented a petition to this honourable House on May 5, 1972. A petition was sent t~ the minister in 1972 for a request for water and sewer for Oark Cove South . The same council also requested water and sewer for the Community of Gambo. Just recently, Mr. Speaker, l presented a petition in the minist er's office for the 802

February 14, 1S74 Tape no. 235 Town of Benton. Benton is a newly incorporated town. MR. WOODWARD: MR. THOMS: Could we have a quorum, Mr. Speaker? We do not have a quorum? Page 1 - MW MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Order please! If honourable members wish to address this House, they will certainly not address it from the doorway. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): We have a quorum. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg) : Order please! Honourable members who take it upon themselves to leave the Chamber certainly forfeit the right to speak.

It is certainly a very bad reflection upon this honourable House and certainly upon the honourable members who take it upon themselves to speak from the doorway. It is certainly looked upon as a gross insult to this House. MR. NEARY: If I may to that, Sir, ask Your Honour - MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): No, the honourable member may not speak to that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, how long does it take the clerk to count the House, Sir? If there is no quorum in the House, you can speak from wherever you want to. The House is not sitting. There is no quorum, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, could we put a time limit on how long it would take the clerk to count the House? Is there a time limit on that, Sir? _MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is not permitted to ask hypothetical questions of that type to the Speaker. _MR. NEARY: Is there a time limit on counting the members in the House, Mr. Speaker? MR. BARRY: Mr. Spe«:<~r, if the honourable member has a point of order to make, he is entitled to make it. However, he is not entitled to rise and ask ~our Honour to advise him on the rules of the House, which we know he is not aware of. 803

February 14, 1974 Tape no, 235 Page 2 MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: Hold on now! I am asking the Speaker a question. But he is aware of the fact that he is not supposed to speak except from his seat. We know that because he himself has raised it something like sixteen times in the past two days. He has finally remembered the rule. He knows one rule. Why does he not observe it? MR. SPEAKER (Mr, Stagg): The honourable member's question is hypothetical and therefore it does not require an answer.

It has been a matter of long-standing tradition that when a quorum call ~s made, that the clerk acts with due deliberation in doing the counting and that honourable members who may be just beyond th,, curtain have time to take their seats. MR. NEARY: Thank you very much, Your Honour; the valedictorian is wrong again. MR. THOMAS: Mr. Speaker, I wish the honourable members would be quiet, when I am talking. Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, before I failed to get a few people to listen to me - after all, Mr, Speaker, fourteen members in this honourable House is not very much to ask for, you know.

Surely Heavens the whip on that side of the House can keep fourteen members in here. Do we really have to give him a whip? There are fourteen out of thirty-one, Mr. Speaker, I will try to continue, The newly incorporated Town of Indian Bay. Mr. Speaker , I presented a petition to this honourable House on May 3, 1972 for a water and sewer programme. Also from the Town of Trinity, a request went from the town to the minister. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I have stated before; in the previous ten years since 1961 to 1971, there were fifteen projects carried out in my district. At the present time, Mr.

Speaker, we need ten projects, the very minimwn being ten projects. Mr. Speaker, to date, from the long list that I have read, the request has been sent to the minister, through this honourable House, we have had no collllllitments whatsoever from this government, none whatsoever,

February 14, 1974 Tape no. 235 Page 3 Mr. Speaker, with one exception, only one exception, Mr. Speaker. This was a request from the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, not the present minister but the previous minister. Too bad the previous minister is not in his seat. Now, Mr. Speaker, when these water and sewer projects are carried out and the taxes for water and sewer are levied, they normally run between five to ten dollars, which is not an unreasonable tax, Mr. Speaker. The towns have to have some form of taxation to regain the money spent. The normal rates are anywhere between five and ten dollars.

It is only a few years ago that they were down as far as three dollars and fifty cents and four dollars. Mr. Speaker, there was a request from the Town of Dover 1 on April 5, 1972, in the form of a petition which I presented to this honourable House. A letter was written by the previous minister to the Town Clerk in Dover. Mr. Speaker, I believe it is important for me to read this letter. It is addressed to Mr. Willis.

"The petition from the residents of the Town of Wellington, Dover, for consideration regarding the installation of water and sewer facilities in the town was referred to my department for further attention. The report compiled by the consulting engineer, the firm of Newfoundland Design Associates Limited, indicates the estimated construction cost of the water and sewer system to be approximately $815,000. Including engineering costs and interest charges on interim financing, the total cost of the system would reach close to $1 million.

This amount calculated for repayment over a forty year period would require an annual commitment from your council in the amount of approximate~y $84,000. Allowing an amount of $10,000 for administration, operation and maintenance, the total expenditure in respect to the system would be approxi111ately $94,000 per annum. "In order for the council"(now, Mr. Speaker, this is where the good

part comes in) ''to meet this annual commitment and taking into account the revenue grants on collections from this 805

February 14, 1974 Tape no. 235 Page department, each customer would be required to pay thirty-five dollars per month.'' Now, Mr. Speaker, this is an indication of the services of this government to place a tax on the ta~;payers of Dover in the sum of thirty-five dollars a month. Mr. Speaker, this is outrageous. No where do we have that tax in the t'rovir1ce of Newfoundland - no where! This is what you call a perfect example of a T0ry Administration trying to run this government as a business. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. COLLINS: Would the honourable member permit a question? No!

Put it on the Order Paper, like I was told MR.THOMS: to do, Every question I have asked in this House, I was told 4 to put it on the Order Paper and so should the honourable minister. AN HON. MEMBER: ls the honourable member afraid of a question? MR. THOMS: I am not afraid at all, Mr. Speaker. I am not afraid of one thing in this world - not one hell of a thing, not even the honourable ministers, I am certainly pointing out the weakness of this Tory Administration. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. THOMS: Certainly. This is quite evident from the number of rises I am getting from the honourable gentlemen.

You would almost think that I was fishing in the best salmon pool on Gander River. Mr. Speaker, all I am showing so far is that the time has long passed when this province can afford a Tory Administration. It will not be too long now before we will get rid of this Tory Administration o~ce and for all. Mr. Speaker, we are very unfortunate~ 806

February 14, 1974 Tape 236 IB-1 I should say very fortunate,in Newfoundland, very fortunate indeed. We only get a Tory Administration once every forty years, The last one was in 1932. Not only did we lose the service to the people but we even lost the government. The people even lost the government when we had the last Tory Administration here but we would not stand for that anymore. This time we are just going to lose the Tory Party and call it quits. It will be another fifty or sixty years, Mr. Speaker, before this businesslike government, this businesslike administration regains power in this province again.

Never again in my lifetime will our people elect a Tory Administration. Now, I know the member for St. John's East is there squirming in his seat. He is getting all hot under the collar and I am expecting him to rise any moment on a point of order or a point of something but I sincerely trust he has got sense enough to stay on his own point. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Or threaten the members of the House as he is always doing. MR. THOMS: Just imagine, Mr. Speaker, asking the people, the residents, the taxpayers of a little community like Dover to pay thirty-five dollars a month.

Disgraceful, a disgraceful display of arrogance! Then, Mr. Speaker, it was only two or three weeks after this letter was written that the Premier of this Province comes out and says publicly on radio that we are going to place a freeze, a semi- freeze on water and sewer projects. "We are going to enjoy the things we'already have," he said. I thought there was nothing done in twenty-three years. They told us there was nothing done. So, what were we going to enjoy if there was nothing done?

"Yes," the Premier said, 1 we are going to enjoy the facilities that we have" ·- and neglect the rest of the people of this province. Mr. Speaker, this last two years has been the total neglect of our people. Never before in our history have we witnessed such an absolute and total neglect. Thank God it will not go on for very much longer! 807

February 14, 1974 Tape 236 IB-2 A disgraceful act of incompetence, Mr. Speakerl Mr. Speaker, the other very important need of our people today is the need of good highways, not dirt, gravel roads. These are not highways. We need good highways in the Province of Newfoundland, the best highways that can be obtained, nothing but the best. Our people are not going to be satisfied until they receive the best. Of course, Mr. Speaker, as soon as we can get over the obstacle on the other side of this House, the Liberal Party will give them the best - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: They have a long time to wait for it. MR.

THOMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, the aspect of our highways;previous to 1972 this province had an agreement with the Government of Canada. It was called the Trans-Canada Highways Agreement. Mr. Speaker, for every dollar that was spent on the highways or for every dollar that was spent on the Trans-Canada Highway, the Federal Government donated ninety cents of that dollar. If there ~as $100,000 spent, $90,000 came from the Federal Government. If there was a nillion dollars spent, $900,000 came from the Federal Government. Mr.

Speaker, we have two sections of the Trans-Canada Highway in this province today that have not been upgraded to Trans-Canada standards. Mr. Speaker, for two years now this government have hemmed and hawed and lingered and to date there is not an agreement signed with the Government of Canada. These two sections of our highway have been neglected for two years. Unfortunately one of these sections is presently within my district. However, Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Government next year will take care of that badly needed project. A.l\l HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are calling the election, are you? ;1R. THOMS: Now, Mr.

Speaker, we have D'.any, many miles of road needed in my district. We have had many, many miles built in the past. As a matter of fact, all the roads in my district, Mr. Speaker, all of them were built by the previous Liberal Administration, all of them. along with the rest of the 5,000 miles of road that were built from 80d

FEbruary 14, 1974 Tape 236 IB-3 1949 to 1971, 5,000 miles on the Island of Newfoundland and in Labrador, Mr. Speaker, an amazing feat, an amazing record, a record that never again will be surpassed by any government. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to bring to the attention of the Minister of Highways - it is too bad•he cannot stay in his seat while this session is in session, really too bad. For some reason or another, Mr. Speaker, these ministers are afraid of the House of Assembly. They are jittery and they cannot stick around very long. Mr.

Speaker, the most important single road programme or road project that is needed in my district is the reconstruction and paving of the road from the mesh in Trinity to Cape Freels. This is a distance of approximately thirty to thirty-five miles depending on the course which the road may take. Petitions, Mr. Speaker, have been sent to this honourable House for this road to be recontructed and paved. They were presented by me in this honourable Assembly on June 2, 1972. The road from Eastport to Burnt Side, the petition for this road was presented in this honourable Assembly by myself on April 26, 1972.

The Benton Road which is only one mile long has been requested by the Town of Benton. The road to Dover which is only two miles long, petitions for this road were presented to this honourable House on May 30, 1972. We need an upgrading and widening of the roads on both the islands in my district, on St. Brendan's and Greenspond. All the road work on these two islands was done by the previous administration. Not enough was done, Mr. Speaker. Oh no, we are not satisfied with it. We will not be satisfied with it tmtil we get it reconstructed and paved.

The road to Cull's Harbour, petition was placed before this Assembly on May 4, 1972. Also, Mr. Speaker, there is the question of the Greenspond causeway. I presented a petition in this honourable Assembly on April 27, 1972. Mr. Speaker, a number of letters and different representations have been made to not only the Minister of Highways but also to the Premier so that some commitment can be 809

February 14, 1974 Tape 236 obtained from this administration for the start of this causeway . lu'< H.ONOURABLE MEMBER: A causeway to Greenspond? MR. THOMS~ A causeway to Greenspond is correct. Yes . l.B-4 Now, if the member from Gre en Bay knew the area in question he would understand why. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is quite obvi ous r.o me and I believe to the people of my district that within this p resent ad.ministration there is no interest, no interest, at least to date there i s no interest shown as to the construction of our highways, not only in my district, Hr.

Speaker, but in any distri c t in Newfoundland today . We have got no good roads programme . We saw that t..'hen the estimates were brough t down last year when I believe some nineteen and a half million dollars was taken out of reconstruction. This is apparently the bus·inesslike policy of this govemment . If it does not pay you to put a road t here, do not put it there. Do not worry about serving people. 8iO

February 14, 1974 Tape 237 PK - 1 Mr. Speaker, before this honourable crowd were elected they were talking about "Let us not move the people, move the service to the people." Mr. Soeaker, this honourable crowd have not moved since. Now, Mr. Speaker, while I am on Highways I want to bring to the attention of the Hon. the Minister of Highways a very personal concern of mine and I believe it is a personal concern of all honourable members of this House, also certainly of all people of our province. Mr. Speaker, I speak specifically about the tragedies that are happening on our highways today. Mr.

Speaker, from the last statistics that were taken in Newfoundland in 1972, if I remember correctly we had 108 persons killed on our highways, 108 persons. We had 1,500 persons injured in various forms and another, 1,500 persons. We had 15,000 accidents on our highways, 15,000 accidents. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is not a record to be very proud of. We should never, never be very proud of that record. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, the time has come for someone in this province to do something about it. We should never sit back and be complacent about these statistics.

They are frightening and to many persons these are the end of this life. Exactly what they were for 1973 I do not know but I would venture to say that if they are not higher they are at least as high. Mr. Speaker, I believe that the present Minister of Highways,maybe in conjunction with the Minister of Justice, maybe in conjunction with other interested persons or ~rganizations, maybe the Safety Council should try and get together and come up with something to if not eliminate this situation at least cut it down. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a suggestion to the Minister of Highways, maybe he can work in conjunction with the Minister of Justice. Now this suggestion,undoubtedly, I doubt if they will accept it, I will probably be called a fool and everything else for suggesting it. I am very concerned about this and many of the people of Newfoundland are concerned about this. If in making my suggestion I am a little way out,maybe someone can take it,examine it and make changes where necessary 811

February 14, i974 Tape 237 PK - 2 and come up with a solution to trv and cut down on these tragedies on our i1ighways 1:odav. Now, Mr. Speaker, my sup,gestion is this 1 first let me say that it is impossible, virtually impossible for any po.lice force that we have in our province or in Canada today to carry out any positive control of our highways the way systems are set up today. It is virtually impossible because, Y.r. Speaker, I use the Trans-Canada Highway, I use the byroads quite often;since March of last year I put I believe 24,000 on a car.

I have had almost every kind of a foolish stunt put on me on the highway, persons passing on double whjte lines, on curves, stop signs, intersections. If you find some driver going along at forty miles per hour and you are going fifty miles p~r hour vou wnuld null out to pass and all of a sudden he speeds uo. There are nuMerous other examples which I can mention. Mr. Speaker, we have to, this province of ours has to come ur with some concrete pror,osals to eliminate these 15,000 odd accidents on our highways. Mr.

Speaker, let me suggest to the ~inister,if he would consider my simple and humble sup,i~estion, ln order to properlv polic.- our hiP,hW.'IYS we would need a huge force of officers on our high, ,,a.ys. Now, Mr. Speaker, I speak, of course, of a voluntary highway force, persons who would volunteer their services to helTJ in some small way to police the r,ighways of our province. This, Mr. Speaker, could be very easily done if we utilize the service of our present drivers on the hip,hwav.

Say, for example, if the Department of Highways or any derartment for that matter were to pick,select or appoint them,however they see fit, say if they took one driver out of every fifty, maybe one out of seventy-five, or one out of every one hundred and gave that driver one week, a ten day course in policing a highway, he would be strictly a volunteer, there would be no pay to him at all. AN HON. MEMBER: A vigilante. 812

February 14, 1974 Tape 237 PK - 3 MR. THOMS: No not a vigilante, not exactly, no. But give him some status, either a ticket on his car, a sticker or something and give him the power to dish out tickets or to report any infractions that drivers on our highways col!Dnit. Mr.

Speaker, if I am driving along the highway and if there is a car ahead of me and I am approaching a curve with a double white line and that fear is within me that maybe the man ahead of me or the man behind me is a highway officer and I have the possibility if I break the highway rule or laws that I will receive a fine, a penalty or a ticket then, }~r. Speaker, I am going to take it easy. I am going to think the second time before I pass someone on a curve. Mr.

Speaker, if you were to examine the number of accidents where deaths are caused you will find that eighty per cent of them are on a curve - eighty per cent of them. Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Highways were to take this suggestion and to examine it, weigh the pros and cons of it, change it if he like , maybe he would like to have one out of every 200, maybe one out of ten, it is immaterial but as long as we can get some force on our highways that will adequately police our highways and cut down on this - it is a real disaster, Mr. Speaker. It is a real slaughter on our highways today.

No one but no one seems to care. Government does not seem to care. We had a debate I believe in this House of Assembly last year and members of government voted against it. Let them take this suggestion, it is not a motion, it is just a suggestion - AN HON. ~EMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable minister wanted to speak in this debate, he had his opportunity but please, would he please be quite and let me speak.because I get awful irritated when I am interrupted. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudibl_i!, MR. THOMS: You do not know what I am going to say 813

February 14, 1974 Tape No, 238 NM - 1 you know, I migrit bring up the $517 or so again,you know and stuff like that. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS; Well, Mr. Speaker, if the members opposite were at all interested, if they had any concern for the people of this province, they would take my suggestion, examine it and surely something would come out of it. MR. EVANS; Inaudible. MR. THOMS: Blurpity blurp,blurp.blurp. Now, Mr.

Speaker, anoth _,r thing on our highways an.; I knoi. the Minister of Highways is totally opposed to this; on the Mainland of Canada where we are approaching an incline on our highways, on the Mainland of Canada where they have two lanes going one way, they have the sign, "Drive right except to pass," and Mr. Speaker, I believe this government was asked to accept this also and place these signs on our highways ~o that when we approach these inclines and all traffic then will 1rive right except to pass and I believe, Mr, Speaker, that this wou.ld eliminate some of the confusion on the hills of our highways.

I see the Minister of Social Services is nodding his head and may I suggest to the Premier that he be transferred to that portfolio. MR. MURPHY: I have been trying to get that since 1968. MR. THOMS: Good. I am glad you have. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to just briefly touch on education in our province, AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, _on a point of order, it has been brought to the attention of the House that you should speak from your own place in the House. The member from Bonavista South is not observing the rules, MR. WM. ROWE: He was not speaking,was he? 814

February 14, 1974 Tape NO. 238 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (MR. STAGG}: The honourable member's point is well taken. The honourable member for Bonavista South will take due note of it I am sure. MR. THOMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, we have a government, elected by the people, which is supposed to be serving our people. They are supposed to be doing all within their power to aid our people and of course, Mr. Speaker, the majority of our people are young people. Most of them at the present time are going to school and Mr.

Speaker, it was very disappointing to I would say 99 per cent of our populace last year when this present administration made it more difficult for our young people to enter university, made it very difficult for most of them, made it practically impossible for 60 per cent of them. This, Mr. Speaker, is why we had a decrease in enrollment in Memorial University last year. Mr. Speaker, the attitude of this government seems to be against our young people. They are certainly against the students entering Memorial University. They proved that.

They are also against our pupils who are going to school because last year they discontinued the mothers' allowance which helped many of our poor families to clothe their people to go to school. The new welfare system, Mr. Speaker, is against the large families of our province, I gather from this, and because of these three different acts I gather that this government is against our youths, against our children, indeed, Mr. Speaker, I believe this government is against motherhood itself, a disgraceful thing, Mr. Speaker. Disgraceful. MR. MURPHY: I will quote that. MR.

THOMS: Yes you can quote me anytime you want me. This government is against motherhood. They have proven it by their acts this past two years. Mr. Speaker, because this present government have eliminated some of the services to the people of Newfoundland, they seem to be continually 815

February 14, 1974 Tape No. 238 NM - 3 blaming it on the previous administration. For two years now, Mr. Speaker, we have heard honourable members opposite say; "Well, we are in this mess because of the former administration." MR. MURPHY: True or false? MR. THOMS: "We cannot spend any money because the liberals had it all spent." Then all of a sudden, Mr. Speaker, Sir, when they get in power the first financial year we find that they get a loan of $188 million and this year, Mr. Speaker, I believe it is over $130 million and can go to $177 million. AN HON. MEMBER: Paying the bills - MR. THOMS: More money, Mr.

Speaker, than ever this province borrowed before, more money than ever they borrowed before. MR. MORGAN: Paying off the old debts. MR. THOMS : Paying off Act III Restaurant, George McLean - MR, WM. ROWE: Give it to th~m. MR. THOMS: Progressive Conservative flunkies, special assistants galore, Mr. Speaker, we have lost count of special assistants. Could some honourable member opposite send us over,in a written form, how many special assistants we have? How many? MR. MORGAN: Can you read it? Can you read it? MR. WM. ROWE: Well the fortunate forty-one they are called. MR, THOMS: Forty-one is it? MR.

WM, ROWE: Well they are called the fortunate forty-one. MR, THOMS: The fortunate forty-one special assistants, Oh well, after the next election we will have forty-one more unemployed, MR. SPEAKER (MR. STAGG): Order please. Honourable members' memories seem to be quite short. Honourable members are speaking from places other than their own, speaking when they do not have the floor and generally being out of order. So I ask all honourable members to revert back to several earlier rulings today and previous days. MR, WM.

ROWE: Sir, what do you do when you come to the House and your own seat is occupied by another member? Do you take him physically 816

February 14, 1974 Tape No. 238 NM - 4 out of the seat or what? What is the ruling? MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, before the present Tory Administration was elected just two years ago, we were told that they were going to solve all the problems of Newfoundland, solve all the ills, they had the answers for everything, and now, Mr. Speaker, today we look and we examine and we are amazed, amazed, Mr. Speaker. Take for example, Mr. Speaker, the cost of living in this province today. The cost of living in this province today, Mr. Speaker, has gone out of the reach of 70 per cent to 80 per cent of the people of our province.

Just simply gone out of reach. AN HON. MEMBER: Thanks to the Liberal Government. MR. THOMS: Yes I will tell the member thanks to the Liberal Government. Mr. Speaker, the donation that the Liberal Government made to this province in the year 1972-1973 was $430 million, that is what • ,e Federal Liberal Government is doing, the only people in this world keeping this miserable island of ours afloat today. $430 million. MR. WM. ROWE: Every chance the Minister of Finance gets he gives them the back of his hand, every chance. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. WM. ROWE: Keep quiet, "Gas'm. MR. THOMS: Now, Mr.

Speaker, let us pray to God that the federal government remains Liberal because I understand from the co111111ents made by the Federal Tory Leader that a lot of these payments will be discontinued as soon as they gain office, $430 million, an unbeatable record,~ •• Speaker, of the Liberal Administration in Ottawa. MR. NEARY: That is only from a few departments. That is not all the departments either. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, rtot only this, but in the year 1973-1974 they are going to up it for us. They are going to give us more. Jake one example, in family allowance alone, Mr.

Speaker, the federal government is going to pay some $54 million to the people of Newfoundland this year, to the mothers of Newfoundland. 817

February 14, 1974 Tape NO. 238 NM - 5 MR. MURPHY: I believe Ontario is going to get it too and Prince Edward Island. MR. THOMS: Oh sure. ~-WM.ROWE: Newfoundland will get more. MR. THOMS: Newfc"ndland will get more on a per capita basis and the minister cannot deny that. 818

February 14, 1974, Tape 239, Pagel -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear: MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR. THOMS: Indeed they will. MR. NURPKY: He got more because he got more for ••. MR. THONS: Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, will receive more out of the increases in family allowances in Ottawa than in all the provinces, any other province. Thank God! for the good Liberal Government in Ottawa. Thank God fot it! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hec:r! Hear! }IR. THOMS: May we never get a Tory Government. '-lay we never get one. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. THO:t-'..S: Hr.

Speaker, if the present local Tory Government could only do one tenth of one per cent that the federal government is doing we would be safe enough in Newfoundland today. Safe enough , Hr. Speaker. SOME HON . NENBERS : Hear! Hear'. HR. liURPIIY: :-!R. THOMS: ' lR. NEARY: We would be the feJeral government. Now, Mr . Speaker, ... The Minister of Finance cannot stand that. He is over there grinding his teeth, scratching his head. He cannot take it. l.fR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, as I was aobut to say when I was so rudely interrupted by the rudely honourable crowd across the way, I was going to state some statistics to the honourable members just to indicate to them, how drastically the cost of living has gone up from the summer of 1971 to the present date, January. It is very interesting indeed. I have a full list here but I will only give you a few of them. First of al~, let me say that I was told today that sugar is going for thirty-three cents a pound in St. John's. MR. EVANS: That is Joey and his buddy Castro. MR. THOMS: Thirty-three cents a pound.

In the summer of 1971 it was going for ten cents a pound. 819

February 14, 1974, i.pe 239, Page 2 -- apb AN HOK. }IB!1BER: How mu ~h are beans? MR. THOMS: Sugar, Hr. Speaker, is up over thrE'e times what it was two and a-half years ago. Hr. Speaker, Newfoundland steak - everyone knows what .-,ew .undland steak is, it is connnonly called bologan. In 1971 it was forty-seven cents a pound. The member for Grand Falls may be very interested that his constituents in January paid ninety-eight cents a pound for it. Ninety-eight cents! More than double the cost since 1971. Corned beef, Mr. Speaker, sixty-two cents a pound - sixty-two cents a can, I 8I!1 sorry! HR.

THONS: No, it is sixty-two cents a can. A.'l HON. ~lE:·IBER: Cooked Corned beef. -- - ·----- MR. THOMS: Sixty-two cents for a twelve ounce can of corned beef. That was in 1971. In January it was one dollar and twenty-nine cents for the same twelve ounce can. Over double, Mr. Speaker. Common salt meat which ve commonly call salt beef ' was sixty-two cents a pound.in January one dollar and nineteen cents a pound. Disgraceful, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: What are they doing about it over there? MR. THOHS: Just imagine, Mr.

Speaker, a little tin of sardines fifteen cents in 1971, in Botwood in January it was going at fifty­ nine cents a tin. Almost four times. Just imagine. i!R.. MURPHY: What is that? ··----- MR. THOMS: Just imagine! Disgraceful, Hr. Speaker. HR. MURPHY: How much was salt beef in 1971? }ffi.. THOMS: A tin of milk, Mr. Speaker, Carnation was sixteen cents a can in 1971 and in January twenty-six cents a can. Ridiculous, Mr, Speaker. MR. NEARY: What are they doing about it over there? HR. }fuRPHY: What are members on the opposite side doing about it? This is bluff weekend. HR. THO}!S: Mr.

Speaker, I could go on and on and on. Mr. Speaker, 820

February 14, 1974, Tape 239, Page 3 -- apb the bare essentials in Newfoundland today, milk, sugar, flour ••• AN HON. MEMBER: Meat. MR. THOMS: Meats are out of the diet, even of the wealthy people. You know, the well-to-do people. You have to be millionaires to be able to buy a steak today. Mr. Speaker, the basic essentials ... MR. EVANS: How much are blueberries this year? MR. THOHS: The food of our population today is out of the reach of approximately sixty-five to seventy per cent of our population. It is out of there reach. That is what a Tory Government did for us in two years, Mr. Speaker. MR.

MURPHY: There you go. MR. THOMS: Hr. Speaker, if this continues, in another two or three years, if you want to buy a weeks groceries you will have to first buy yourself a wheel-barrow so that you can wheel down enough money to the grocery store in order to buy a weeks groceries. This is what is going to happen, Nr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, from information that I have received in the last two days .•. MR. MURPHY: It is not confidential? MR. THOMS: It is not confidential no. It will only be a short time now and it is going to be very public indeed.

The government is going to fall and we are going to have another election and we are going to have a vast, new Liberal Government. SOHE RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. MURPHY: I do not think they are for this government. AN HON. MEMBER: I do not think they are for anything over there. They are against everything. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, this crowd across the way is definitely against everything. M!· Speaker, I have only twenty minutes left and I have so much here to do so I would like to ask the honourable House if they would be kind enough to give me unlimited time, because I know they are enjoying me. MR.

NEARY: Hear! Hear! 821

February 14, 1974, Tape 239, Page 5 -- apb :•1R. THOMS : Nay I have unlimited time? . ~_HON. .MEMBERS: Agreed. Agreed • .MR. THOhS: T,1ank you, Mr. Speaker, e11eryone agreed. Now I can elaborate. AN HON. MF-~BER: All new all this stuff. ----- -- MR. EVAl.'lS: New everything. )!R. THOHS: -------- No you did not all "knew·• all this stuff. You did not know half t l•Ls stuff. In fact you knew nothing. Nothing. You <lid not know anything. Hr.

Speaker, I would bo2 very re~:iss in my duty indeed if I did not bring up the subject of fisheries, seeing that I am repre,entfng one · the districts of • ✓ hich fiftv per cent of my cons>' itucnts rely on the fishery for their income. Hr. Speaker, let me point out to you now that the people in Ilonavista North are some of the best fishermen in the whole Province of Newfoundland. SOME iiOX. HDIBERS: Hear! llear! MR. THOMS: --- ---- They always were and always will be. I was astounded last year, Mr.

Speaker, when the estimates came down - b,· the way, before I start I am glad the Minister of Fisheries is not in his seat because anything that I may say - I would not w2::t to cause his resignation. This mav well sway our numbers on this side of the House again, and we are getting crowded in the little office we have in there. Very crowded indeed. SOME LION. }:EHBERS :_ (Inaudible) ~lR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, may I be heard please? WiJ 1• Your Honour direct the attention of this honourable ignorant crowJ t0 the :act that I am speaking? HR. EVANS: Watch your language. Your language is getting strong eh? MR.

THOMS: Blurpidy, blurp, blurp, blurp. MR. SPEAKER: I am sure that all honourable members are aware that the honourable member has the right to be heard in silence. _MR. THOMS_:_ Mr. Speaker, it does not appear to be of any use to talk to them unless we can get Your Honour a cat-o'-nine -tails and that 822

February 14, 1974, Tape 239, Page f - apb is about the only thing that will put them in their place. Mr. Speaker, on the subject of fisheries, I know the minister does not know the differen ce, you know, but I can suffer that out. Mr. Speaker, we need much more attention paid to marine service centers. There were a number of centers started by the previous administration. There was one started in my district. One, number one. One. That is the one, yes. !1R. !-illRPHY : ~!R. TUOHS: V~ry little has been done since the start'. A few rocks have been blasted, I think a bit of concrete poured, nothing.

It has taken them t~o years to do a project that would normally take about twelve-month period. AN HO_X. ~!EMBER: Who was that started by? NR THOMS: Started by the previous Liberal Administration , under the good auSl)icies of the previous Minister of Fisheries, the honourable member for Fogo . Mr. Speaker, our fishermen are in bad need of slipways, bait depots, ice making machines and ot!,er things that go to make our fishery a viable indus try. We need in Wesleyville where this marine service center is located, we need this center to be completed as soon as possible .

Our fishermen have not a place to put up a long-liner, not one place. These long-liners have come into play over the last four or five years, a very effective method of fishing. We need a slipway in Newtown to pull u~ our small boats for our inshore fishermen. We need bait depots in both Newtown 823

February l4, 1974 Tape no •. ~,..J Page 1 - MRW Milltown and Green's Pond. Mr. Speaker, there was a request made to this government two years ago from the fishermen of Green's Pond, the fifty-four fishermen there,for a bait-holding unit or a cold storage room, There were willing to supply their own bait. All they needed were cooling facilities. To date, Mr. Speaker, they have no concrete evidence of any move by the provincial goverument. In the Town of Pound Cove, a petition was presented to this h,,nourable House for an ice-making machine. Mr. Speaker, this request came in in the early season of 1972.

At t!lat time, Mr. Speaker, we had an interest concerned in Pound Cove, a man who was willing to set up the facilities there, providing they could obtain an ice-making machine. Because of the lack of this machine, Mr. Speaker, we lost this industrious gentleman. Efforts are now being made to find a replacement for someone to promote the fisheries in the T9wn of Pound Cove. Mr. Speaker, the question of disaster compensation comes to mind. It is a very serious one. It is very serious especially for the fishermen of the ~ortheast Coast who lost considerable gear last year because of storm damage. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when the Liberal Administration were in po~1er, from 1954 on, they paid to the fishermen sixty per cent of the total cost of the gear, which each fisherman lost. They paid to the fishermen, not to the suppliers I want you to note, but to the fishermen they paid sixty per cent of the gear which that fisherman lost. Now, Mr. Speaker, this Tory Administration has brought in a new policy. They will oniy pay fifty per cent 6f the gear lost - fifty per cent.

If it were not true, why would not the minister answer the questions that I had repeatedly put to the minister and to the Premier in this session of the House of Assembly? All I was told, Mr. Speaker, was,put it on the Order Paper. Put it on the Order Paper! That is the only answer

February 14, 1974 Tape no. 240 you can get from them, Put in on the Order Paper! MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: They are ashamed to admit what they have done. Mr. Speaker, not only will they only pay fifty Page 2 pet cent of the cost of the gear lost by our fishermen but, Mr. Speaker, this money will not be paid to the fishermen but to the supplier of the gear. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is throwing our 1ishermen back two or three hundred years. This is what happened way back in the history of the fishery. This is why our fishermen never did see a dollar.

Tris Tory Administration is trying to put them away back there again so they will not see any money in the future. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. THOMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, if the money were paid to our fishermen directly, the fishermen would have ways and means of overcoming the other fifty per cent. But, Mr. Speaker, no! It has to be paid to the supplier and, therefore, the fisherman has to go deeper in the hole even before he can get his gear in the water, This, Mr. Speaker, is a disgraceful act, It is disgraceful incompetence of this minister in placing our fishermen back two or three hundred years.

It will change, Mr. Speaker. I will not be too long now before it will change, We are all looking forward to the change and so are all the fisherman of the V.ortheast coast. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have had quite a lot of controversy lately about the offshore fishery of Newfoundland; the Grand Banks and the Hamilton Banks, I just want to say a few things on this. The people of the northeast coast of our province are deeply, deeply concerned, They are concerned for the fish stocks of our province, fish stocks that come to shore.

I have been talking with fishermen who have had as much as forty and forty-five years experience in the fishery of our province. All of the old captains will agree and even the young captains will agree that if not all, then a large percentage of the fish that come to the coast or the northeast coast of 825

February 14, 1974 Tape no, 240 Page 3 NPwfoundland and Labrador are spawned on the Hamilton Banks. ,-Ir. Sneaker, if you can understand this, the cod spawn on the dami,~on Banks. Now, Mr. Speaker, when you are talking about our cod srawning, the average cod. that is possibly a cod which measures possibly forty-four to forty-five inches ~ong, the average cod will drop or lay approximately five million eggs -- five million eggs. The larger cod will go as far as nine million eggs, quite a large number. But, Mr. Speaker, the mortality rate is very, very high , very nigh indeed. Mr.

Speaker, the eggs are laid on the bottom of tne Hamilton BanKs but they do not hatch on the bottom c,f the Hamilton Ban Ks. ihey do not hatch there. The eggs f lo.it up, not to the surface but close to the surface. Depending on the temperate of the water, they aatch. There is a variation there from te1~ to pussibly forty-sevPn or forty-eight days. If the water is warm, not necessarily warm, but say if it is forty-seven degrees, they will hatch in about eleven days. If the water is cold, which is normal on the Hamilton Banks, they hatch in about thirty-five to forty days. Mr.

Speaker, after they float on the surface for a while, the young ones hatch .nd return to the bottom again. Mr. Speaker, this is where the damage comes in with the draggers. This is where the huge amount of damage comes in causing the high rate of mortality of the young fish. They have to pass tnrough these drag nets. If they do not get them the first time, they normally get them the second or third time, Mr, Speaker, I believe and a large majority of our fishermen, I believe, and certainly the fishermen whom I have talked with, believe that the Hamilton Banks should be closed.period. MR. CO~LINS: (Inaudible). MR.

THOMS: Most definitely. I trust you will support ours, 826

Febi.;ary 14, l974 Tape no. 240 Page 4 Mr. Speaker, the 'Provincial Department of Fisheries should bring all the power that it has t o bear on the Federal Minister of Fisheries to have t his fishing ground closed period . I will certainly support that. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is a request from the fishermen of my area because they hBve been vocal on this, very out-spoken and I sincerely trust that the mi.ni ster will take note and act accordingly. He will get all the support that he possibly needs from this side of the House. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there is another aspect ,>f the fisheries which l would like to go into and maybe it is even more important than the spawing grounds of our Banks , Of course, the spawing grounds of our cod are not only on the Hamilton Banks, they are on other Banks, other portions of the Grand Banks. Maybe the minister and maybe the scientists themselves will find it necessary to have other sections of the Banks close d, if lhey are found to be the spawing grounds, not necessari ly the Hamilton Banks , because the cod that comes to the Avalon and the South Co_ast I would imagine

February 14, 1974 Tape 241 IB-1 spawn on the Grand Banks. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is the question of caplin, especially the caplin on the Grand Bank. Now, for any of our fishermen, especially our old time fishermen and any of the new fishermen who are learned in the ways of the codfish, the haddock, the turbot, even up to a whale, the seal or any of the species of fish and mammals that are found in the northeast and northwest Atlantic, they will find that the caplin is the mainstay food of all these species. The caplin is the mainstay food. It is the main food of all these species.

Now, Mr, Speaker, I am very disturbed when I hear both Federal and Provincial authorities talking about harvesting the caplin. I am deadly opposed to any commercial harvesting of the caplin because, Mr. Speaker, it is my contention that the caplin is a link in the recycling chain of our marine life. Mr. Speaker, if we commercially harvest this fish we will break that chain and the whole system in the North Atlantic will collapse.

If we take the food away from the cod, the haddock, the turbot, the flounder, the seals, the whales, the whole system will collapse and we will very rapidly find, not our stocks depleted by human resources but our stocks will completely disappear from their common ground. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I trust that the minister will take note and also the Premier and that he will urge Federal authorities and Provincial authorities to put a ban on the commercial harvestin~ of caplin off our shores.

Now, I do not mean that you or I shoul,i not be allowed to go down on a sandy beach and dip up the caplin that we need for our deepfreeze. I do not mean that and I do not mean that our inshore fishermen should not be allowed to commercially fish for caplin inshore. They should be permitted to do so as has been the case in the past. I do believe that a ban should be put on the commercial fishing of the caplin on the, Grand Banks. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is another very important thing that I would like to mention. That, Mr. Speaker, is the subject of jobs 828

February 14, 1974 Tape 241 IB-2 anc the unemployed in our province today. We have tried for two days, Mr. Speaker, to have this House adjourn ed so that this very important subject of unemployment in our province can be discussed because I believe that if such a discussion took place, that someone in this honourable House would be able to come up with a suggestion. We may n·ot be able to eliminate the situation but certainly to be able to cut down on the numbe r of unemployed in our province. Mr.

Speaker, we hear the Premier goi.ng about this province and all across Canada and boasting about 38,000 jobs produced in two years, 38,000 jobs created. Baloney! Bull! Baloney: Bull: We do not have 38,000 jobs created i.n the l ast t·wo years . We do not ha_ve half that amount, Mr. Speaker, created in the last two years . Mr. Speaker, just to give you an example let me read for you an articl e . It is a special report, an Atlantic report from the Atl~ntic Provinces Economic Council. On page two of that report, 829

February 14, 1974 Tape 242 PK - l 1-!r. Speaker, they are dealing specifically with Newfoundland on page two and nage three. On page two let me read for you one paragrauh. ''During 197 3' ' , and they are t.,1lking about Newfoundland here, ''Almoi:;t all sectors of the economic showed improvement. Average weekly wages rose by about eleven per cent. About 6,000 jobs were created.' . In ,g7';_, }·!r. Speaker, 6,000 jobs were created. MR . NEARY: Tl1at is a long way off 38,000. MR. THOMS: That is a long way off 19,000 that the Premier boosted about. AN HON. MEMBER: No, 38 ,00(1. MR. THOMS:_ No, 38,000 in two years.

This is dealing with 1973, 6,000 jobs were created. 'ir. Speaker, all of our people especially the unemployed oeoole of Newfoundland - AN HON. }lEHBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: They have a real problem on their hands. They are looking for work all over the province. I ' have men in my qistrict writing to me and telephoning me every day of the week, sever days a week,loo! ·ing for work. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, they cannot find work. They are saying "Where are all the jobs that the Premier is talking about? Where are the 38,000 jobs the Premier is talking about?" Where are they? AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Ah! Do not be so foolish, boy!. One hundred and twenty- five slaves. MR. THOMS: It sounds like the song, Mr. Speaker, "Oh Where, Oh Where Have The Little Jobs Gone?" They cannot be found, Mr. Soeaker,and the simple reason is that they are not there to be found - not there to be found. Mr, Speaker, just imagine in January of this year, that was last month, we had 36,000 person unemployed in this province - 36,000 unemployed. The highest number in Newfoundland•s history. The highest number of 830

February 14, 1974 Tape 242 unemployed persons in any month in Newfoundland's history was in January when we had 36,000 unemployed. AN HON . MEMBER: Inaudible. PK - 2 "MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, if th•:! trend continues, as the trend will, it will be up to 40,000 in February. AN HON. MEW!ER: It will be up to fifty per cent then we will have ••• MR. THOMS: It will be a disaster, Mr. Speaker, in the employment sector of our province. It is a disaster. MR. NEARY: It will go up to fifty per cent and then we will have riots. If that is not urgent, I do not know what is. MR.

THOMS: Mr, Speaker, this is what the Tory Administration are talking about,performance. They say they can do more. They can put us all out of jobs. They can do more all right, Mr. Speaker - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. Ht . SPF.AK.ER: Order, please! I would like to interrupt the honourable member to remind him,except by leave,he has five minutes left to speak. MR. THOMS: But, Mr. Speaker, I have leave, I asked for it this evening. ~IR. SPEAKER: Leave has not been granted. MR. THOMS: Well, Mr. Speaker, may I ask if I could get leave of the House to - MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, this is Valentine's Day and the speecb is such a marvelous speech and so full of content that we wait with hated breath, I am sure we will be prepared to allow the honourable member to go over his time, on this side of the House anyway. AN H.ON . MEMBER: Inaudible. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Does the honourable member have leave to continue over his time? Agreed. MR. MURPHY: him. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would love to come back every day and hear Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable gentlemen 831

February 14 , 1974 , Tape 242 PK - 3 I know they are entert ·ained because at leas t for once in this honourab l e House they seem to be learning somethin g, at least learning the facts that are ,-,resently in this provin ce today. Now, t!r. Speaker, to get back to this unemployment s i tuat ion. No._,, '.-ir. Speaker. l have a suR~est:ion we ~1ere not allowed to debate in this llou!<e the unemploymen t situation the other day, for two days. I wouln certaiulv like to make a suggest ion t:o the Hon. the Premier because only he and I beli eve he alone.has the power to do somet hin~ about it . AN RON.

ME~mER: Inaudible . l1R. THO~S: How, Mr. Speaker, naturall y I am constructive. Now, Mr. Speake r, this last three winters, irtcluding this 1.tinter, the federal gover