Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 40B (35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-40b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Speaker VOL. XLII No. 408 • 8 p.m., TUESDAY, APRIL 13, 1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituen cies and Politi cal Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Re g ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Be cky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUM MINGS, Glen, Ho n. DACQU AY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Ho n. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Ho n. DRIEDGER, Albert , Ho n. DUCHARME , Gerry, Ho n. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Ho n. ERNST, Jim, Ho n. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Ho n. FINDLAY, Glen, Ho n. FRIESEN, Jean GAUD RY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Ho n. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOU REUX, Ke vin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURE NDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Ho n. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPIN E, Gerry McCRAE, James, Ho n. MciNTOSH, Linda, Ho n. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Ho n. NEU FELD, Haro ld ORCHARD, Donald, Ho n. PALLISTER, Brian PEN NER, Jack PLOHMAN, Jo hn PRAZNIK, Darren, Ho n. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Ho n. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Ho n. STORIE , Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Ro semary, Ho n.

WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK , Ro sann Vacant CONSTITUE NCY Osbo rne Thom pson We llington River He ights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste. Rose Seine River Ro blin-Russell Selkirk Conc ord ia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charles wood Interlake Brand on East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minne do sa Crescentwood Gimli Point Dou glas Inkster The Pas St. No rbert Elmwood Mo rris Burrow s Sturgeon Creek Brand on West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Port age Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St.

Vital Glad stone Turtle Mo untain Broadway Kirkfield Park Rin Ron La Veren drye Fort Garry St. Jo hns Swan River Rupe rtsland PARTY. Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

1 626 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, Aprll 13, 1993 The House met at 8 p.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (co nti nued) BUDGET DEBATE (Fourth Day of Debate) Madam Deputy Speaker (Louise Dacquay): To resume de bate on the prop ose d motion of the hon ourabl e Minister of Finan ce (Mr. Manness), standing in the name of the hon oura ble Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), who has 12 minutes remain ing. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Madam Deputy Speake r, I am pleased to be able to co nti nue the de bate on the budget, and I am pleased to see the widespread suppo rt for it. (Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau , Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I indicate cl-{inter je ction ] Well, the member for Kildona n (Mr. Chomiak) is maybe wavering a bit in his support, and I sense that he is learning a little more with eac h passing day about the de partment for which he is no w the criti c, as he has an op po rtu nity to understa nd that right across this nation reform is taki ng place in health care and that Manito ba is leading the way in that area. I urge him to stay tuned to what is happen ing in other pro vinces to see that diff icult de cisions are being made by other governments.

Again, it brings back that thou ght that when Ne w Democ rats are in governmen t they rea lize some of the dif fi cult de cisions that have to be made, but Ne w Democ rats in oppositi on ne ver seem to co me around these probl ems to the po int where they can off er co ncrete soluti on s. I refe r again to an arti cle in re cent times in on e of the lo cal papers where it says: NDP need s to co me to grips with the real world. As lo ng as the mem ber for Kildonan is in op po sition, I am afr aid that he is not incline d to co me to grips with the real world.

I would ask him to take a good look at what is happen ing in health care in British Col umbia, in Ontario and in Saskatchewan and to realize that you ca nnot hi de behi nd that rheto ric an d offer no concrete so lution s in the way he has be en pe rfo rming in the Ho use. It is time, if there is a plan that he and his caucus has in that area of health care, that he will bring it for ward an d offer some co nc rete so lut ion s. Perhap s in Estimates he will do that.

The fac t is that we have been listening and all we have heard is rhetoric, co ndem nation and criticism without any real op tions, without any real forw ard thinking on it. Members from the secon d opposition party an d mem bers on this side an d, I exp ect, members of his own caucus realize that, that prett y soon those real rec omme ndat ion s of change will have to co me forward from that member. Perhap s he is going to get the opportu nity a little later toni ght to put some of those thoughts on the re cord.

At any rate , I thi nk the arti cle in the loca l paper of a few weeks ago is co rrec t, that the members of the Manitoba NDP still are not realizing that in the 1 990s there is not ad dition al inco me to government, that there are very, very diff icult de cisions to be made. I po inte d out to the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leon ard Evans) prior to the supper break all of the reforms that hav e take n place in the so cial allow an ces fie ld that he as mi niste r had the op por tu nity to bring forward in the late 19 80s, but he avoi ded those de cisions. He did not bring those reforms forward.

In stead, the priorities were elsewhere. Well, I can tell you , Mr. Acting Speake r, that Manitobans real ize that this governme n t is here to preserve the vital services in Health, in Family Services an d Ed ucation with some very, very difficu lt de cisions. In this De partm ent of Family Servi ces, even though governmen t re ven ues are fl at, the increase in spen ding in Family Services will again be amo ngst the highest in govern ment, in ex cess of 4.5 percent.

In ord er to maintai n our ex pen ditures and in crease some of the ex pen dit ures in so cial allowan ces, some very, very diffi cult de cisions had to be made. These are the de cisions that mem bers of the off icial op position have al ways avoided.

1627 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 13, 1993 These are decisions that they want to, from the luxury of opposition, criticize at this time. I have challenged members present to bring forward some options in Family Services wherEt we can do some cost-cutting measures, where we can do some economizing in order to be able to address the tremendous increased costs in social allowances. Again, Manitoba has one of the lowest number of citizens accessing that program, and I can tell you that the problems we face here are magnified many times over in British Columbia and in Ontario. *

(2005) That is why ministers and Premiers in those jurisdictions are talking about completely revamping the way social allowances are distributed there, a fact that is also being discussed in Alberta at this time. It is also a factor that President Clinton has noticed in the United States, that we can no longer simply pay people to stay at home. Yet, even in these difficult times, we have been able to make those adjustments to family allowances, make those reforms that were so long neglected by the prev1ious government.

So to do this, we have had to ask some of our external agencies to do with less, to manage with less. I can tell you in meeting with the Child and Family Services agencies, their presidents and 1heir directors, they are going to meet that challenge. They accept that they too must be part of the solution, that they can find those savings from within and still provide the services that are needed there. They are prepared to accept that challenge Etven though members opposite perhaps are trying to misconstrue some of the comments that are made. There is a recognition.

There is a recognition of the challenges that face them, and they feel that they can do that. We have also had to make some adju stments in the Day Care line, where we ask all of the families who are accessing subsidies to pay a small portion of the cost. As I had indicated earlier, we have neen dramatic increases in the amount of funding that goes to the Day Care line, some 100 percent increase over the course of five budgets where that line has increased from somewhere around $26 million or $27 million to this past year over $50 million.

So in order that we are able to sustain programs like that, we have had to make some minor adjustments in terms of looking at the number of licensed spaces that are in existence in the system. We have also had to look at the subsidies and put a cap at this time on the subsidies at $9,600. I say to you, Mr. Acting Speaker, that the boards and the people involved in daycare I think will make those adjustments. Some will have to use their surpluses and manage through this very difficult time and, just as with the restructuring two years ago with the proper decisions made at that level, they can certainly do so.

Some of the other decisions that we have had to make are reflective of the fact that we have had a 10.6 percent increase in the Income Maintenance line in this budget. As I have indicated in the past, it is the volume of cases that is going up so dramatically. H we are going to preserve our ability to address that volume, some of these other changes have had to take place. We know what the alternatives are in other provinces. H we are going to keep everything that we did last year, we would have to look at the sales tax, as B.C. and Saskatchewan have done, and increase that.

We have made a decision not to and, as a result, we are eliminating some of the programs. One is the student category, and we have had an opportunity to discuss that. Manitoba was the only province in Canada that had that particular category. Other provinces have indicated and shown that they are not able to sustain a program like that, and that is one of the difficult decisions we have had to make. We have also had to eliminate some of the funding for groups that bring forward and advocate for various groups in society, but as I indicated, we have heard those groups. They have brought forward ideas in the past.

Some of them in the social allowance field, such as the WORD group and the SACOM group, have existed without government funding. I am sure that they will continue to exist and bring forward excellent ideas and recognize the reforms that we have put in place in the past number of years and recognize the cost to government. The government of Manitoba, just as in other provinces, realizes that there is not an endless supply of resources that we can use to add ress those problems, but over the last three budgets in

April 13, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1628 that particu lar area, we have made some dra mat ic changes, changes that were ignored by the pre vious govern ment. * (201 0) The pre vious minister is here this evening. He knows those were chan ges that he would have liked to have bro ught forward, but the priorities were not place d on Family Services at that time .

There was mo re priority put on the creation of those green signs that went up all over the pro vince and the spen ding of resourc es on very, very short- term, make-work proje cts which did not tra in peo ple to hav e lo ng-lasting jo bs across this pro vince. No w we are saddl ed with that de bt, and as part of that burgeoning de bt, that has create d the situa tion where the Dep artment of Finance is the fo urth largest spen de r in govern ment to pay for those ex penses of the pre vious govern ment. We are on a co urse now with this budgetto bring in a balanced budget later in the de cade .

Other pro vinces are also mo ving in that direct ion. It ap pears to me that the onl y peop le op po sed to that are the me mber s op po site who , as the colu mnist indicate d, hav e not come to grips with the real wor ld and do not realize that there is a finite limit to what government is able to do.

I can tell yo u, and I am sure members op po site are fi nd ing th is too as the y tra vel in the ir co nstituen cies, there is widespread support for the challenge that we have taken on to re duce that defi cit year ov er year in the next number of budgets to the po int where we no lo nger are spen ding more do llars than we are taking in. That is the track that other govern ments across this nat ion are on, and it is only the off icial opposi tion here in Manitoba who do not see the wisdo m of that.

On the other hand, the other op po sition party talks about enhan cing our income without saying that they would raise taxes. The y talk about find ing add itional resourc es, enhancing thei r budgetary abilities. The only thing they are saying is that they would increase ta xes, the sales tax, the personal income tax, the corporate tax. I can tell you, fro m the de cisio ns we have made , that is just not on. Ms. Jean Friesen {Wolseley): Mr. Acti ng Speaker, it is April. Those of us who remember back to school and university days perhaps also re member that April has a do uble ed ge to it.

It is the time of spring, but it is also the ti me of exams. I reme mber that do uble-e dged sword that we always used to fee l in Mo ntreal. We would make a ritual trek do wn to the Port of Mo ntreal to see the first ships in fac t that had come up the St. Lawrenc e and to always try and put off the ev il da y of find ing the library again and setting forth back up the mo untain to the gym where the lo ng tables of exam questions were waiting for us. That do uble-edge d sword I thi nk is there , Mr. Acting Speaker, for students today.

If you are out at the university today, you will find of course the barbecues on the residents' balconi es. You will have to duck the flying Frisbee s. You know that stu dents hav e re discov ere d the library and te xtboo ks. They , too, I think are primarily thinking of exams and of thei r own futures . It is a do uble-e dged sword for tod ay's stude nt as well, Mr. Acting Speaker. To day's students in high school, colle ge, university, face a very uncertain future in Manitoba.

It is beco ming clear, it seems to me, as I go arou nd my const ituency and as I have talke d to stude nts at the university and in high schoo l, that bo th the y and the ir parents are beginning to rec ognize the uncert ainty of both the ir ed ucational futures and thei r personal futures in th is pro vince. They are beginning to art iculate it on a basis which goes beyon d the personal and the family futures. As I listened to the ir co ncerns this spring at the university and on the doorste p, they spoke primarily of the difficulty of fin ding summer jo bs.

I know those of you who have children in th is age grou p or who hav e spoken to those pe op le in yo ur ow n const ituency know that this is prime, uppermost in thei r minds. * (201 5) The y need the means to find the increased fees for next year. For those of them whose parents have been laid off or who now have only one income in the family where perhaps there had been two in the past, they are findi ng there is a tre men do us and increase d urgenc y for that search for a summer jo b.

We know that the numbers of summer jo bs are do wn, whether they are those which are being off ered by the fed eral governm ent or those by the pro vin cia l govern ment or by those who are struggling in Manitoba's small businesses. They are findi ng great difficu lty in giving students that ex tra hel p that in the past they had been ab le to do .

1629 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 13, 1993 An increasing number of my students, Mr. Ac1ing Speaker, are also mature students, people who have already been unemployed or in some ca1ses have already lost their family farm. They are· in university for a very short period of time in their o�wn minds. They are there to get the qualifications that they believe will give them a job here or elsewhere outside of the province. They are very serious. They are in a hurry, and they are very committed. They have to spend their time very efficiently at the university.

Their concerns are that the rollbacks and the clawbacks to universities in this budget are goin!J to leave them in the lurch.

The support programs that are so necessary for them to make efficient use• of their time, the counselling services, the financial assistance, the tutoring programs, the ones that enable them to concentrate all their energies on their library and on studies and on their essays, are the ones that they feel are going to suffer and those •are the ones that have enabled them to survive in university and which have prevented them fr,om falling through the cracks in what can sometimes be a very large and impersonal system.

All students next year are going to have to cope with the changes to the federal student loan plan which will insist that students take four courses to qualify for a loan. It is a Catch-22 situation, four courses makes it very difficult for you to take on any extra work. The loan itself is not enough to see )'OU through the increased costs and increased coslt of living, increased taxes that everyone is facing in Manitoba. Bus fares are going to go up in Manitoba, school supplies will be taxed, journals will be tax,ed. There will be extra taxes on gasoline.

Students, whether as renters living at home or as homeowners, will now feel the brunt ofthe increased taxes which will affect all households in Manitoba as a result of this budget. The combined effect of the policies of this Tory government and their colleagues in Ottawa, the Mulroneys, the Charests, the Campbells, all those people who sat around that cabinet table will fall heavily on students. Mr.

Acting Speaker, while it is true that most students at the moment have no thoughts on their mind other than exams a1nd summer jobs, the combined impact of Tory policies to ensure that no one outside the upper middle class can hope to have a debt-free education, that 'INill eventually penetrate to people across Manitoba .. Indeed, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I have often thought that it is an irony that this Tory government which is spending so much money on cosmetic advertising to encourage people to consider education as an investment for the future, to encourage them to stay in school, to go to college and university, also ensures and encourages that those families and individuals will also and should also in their minds go into debt to do it. How odd then it seems to me, how ironic that it does not seem to make any sense to Tory governments to invest in the future in education.

All their budget decisions, it seems to me, are based on an underlying assumption that education is a drain on the public purse. They never see it as an investment of the future of the province and yet there are crucial decisions facing Manitoba in education. We must find ways to expand post-secondary education in all its forms, whether it is on the shop floor, or whether it is in community colleges or universities, or whether in continuing education. We simply have to expand that post-secondary education in Manitoba.

Are we going to continue to accept the high dropout rates that we have from our high schools, our low percentage of students in community colleges and getting lower as a result of the actions of this government, the long waiting lists for courses in technology, the pent-up frustration at the lack of accessibility of basic adult education and literacy and advanced level English programs which are most urgently needed and which, I think, are leaving people feeling very cut off and very stymied in their attempt to become part of this community?

Do we accept the closing of the first year of the Faculty of Arts, the last of the open faculties in Manitoba? Do we accept university science programs with no labs? Do we accept the low ranking in many sectors, not all, but in many sectors that Manitoba universities received in the Maclean's poll? It seems to me, Mr. Acting Speaker, that we have universities which are amongst the lowest in Canada in their support for graduate students and a government which does not seem to recognize that the research which has been done in this province, in agriculture in particular-and I have heard the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) now make much of that in several of his speeches-# he looks into the research in canota, the research in agricultural science or in human ecology, a great deal of that research could not have been done without graduate students from across Canada and, indeed,

April 1 3, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1630 from arou nd the world. Do we ac ce pt un iversities whose infrastructure in ever y single on e of ou r universities is crumbling? Do we ac ce pt the 50 pe rce nt cuts that this gover nmen t this year, yet again, has off er ed to universities to he lp the m co mpet e on a nation al basis an d to prod uce graduates who will be a cred it to this pro vince and to its ed uc at io n syst em ? Wha t a na rro w pe rspective when we put it all to gethe r. Wha t a narro w pe rspective on Ma nitoba. What a narro w perspe ctive on ou r fu ture, and with what de ce ptio n is it offe red to the public in this pro vince. *

(2020) In ever y level of ed ucat io n the re have been cuts from ever y budget since 199 1. It seems to me, Mr. Acting Speake r, tha t all we hear fr om the Premier , fr om the fr on t be nches, fr om the Mini ste r of Ed uca tion, is clich e after cliche, rhe toric afte r rhe to ric, about educ at io n being the ke y that op ens the do ors to the fu ture of Ma nitoba. No on e will disagree with that. It is absol utel y true, an d it is crucial. Yet what we are seeing is cut after cut afte r cut in areas which are the most crucial to ou r industrial and to ou r pe rson al fu tures as well. Mr.

Acting Speake r, if I were to pick on e area of lo ng-term significance for the fu ture of Ma nitoba, it is this failure of the Film on cabine t to reco gnize the urgent need s of ed ucat io n. In the last fi ve years, we ha ve seen an un pr e ce de nt ed nu mber of Ma nitoban s lose thei r jo bs. We have seen the movement of jobs to Edmo nto n an d Mo ntreal at the hands of the federal governme nt, an d yes, indeed the re have been significant cha nges in the global industrial ec on omy . If Ma nito ba is to survive in some form in the future, it must be come part of those ne w know le dge-based industries.

The only way tha t is going to happe n is through the ex pansio n of pos t-secon da ry ed ucat io n op po rtunities an d, particularly, the ex pansio n of the ir availability to rural and to no rthe rn com mun ities so tha t we make use, so that we tap into the talents of all ou r peopl e. It is a form of investment that is absolu tely critical to the futur e of the pro vince. It is a fo rm of investment tha t will no t be served by the working of the fr ee market. It canno t be built with the individual de bts of those Ma nitoba fam ilies whose children are in university no w.

It is an investment which will serve us all in the prod uctio n of doc tors , teachers, far mers, scien tists, resea rche rs, innov at or s, fil m maker s, writers. With ou t such investme nt, Mr. Acting Speaker , we are de stined to become a smalle r pro vince and even lower wage pro vince with a high prop ort io n of our public costs be ing spen t on welfare, as the y are no w, and social services for the disaffec te d. We are de stined to become an a ged pro vince with an an nual exod us of ou r you ng, traine d or untrained .

Our ec on om ic po licies will be reduce d or restricte d to chasing smokestacks, to fi nding larger an d larger tax breaks for co rpo rations to offe r us jobs for a fe w years until the y find some ot her lo w-wage me cca elsewhere in the globe. Ma nitoba , like ever y ot her pro vince in Canad a, has to invest in ed.l catio n. In British Colum bia they are building anot he r university and ex panding the ir co mmunity co lle ges an d upgrading some of the m to become university colle ges.

They are ex panding because they have an increased po pulation, but the y are also ex panding and were ex panding befor e tha t large rush came in, in the last 10 years. They are ex panding in areas of te chnol ogy in thei r te chn ology inst itu tes and in thei r co mmu nity co lleges, because they are looking at the futur e and the y are looking at the ne w econ om ies of the Pacific Rim and of the global knowled ge ec on om ies. In Mo ntr eal, with un em ploy men t ra te s signifi cantly higher tha n much of the rest of Canad a, they have de cide d to invest in the rene wal of the islan d of Mo ntreal.

If you have visited Mo ntreal re ce ntly, you will know ho w difficu lt the co ndition s are the re in their basic infrastructu re an d services. They have set aside a half-b illio n do llars for the rene wal of the island of Mo ntreal , of which $50 mi ll ion is go ing in to the de ve lop men t an d reco nstructio n of the infrastruc ture of co lleges and universities. It is a question of setting prio rities. It is a questio n of looking to the futur e. It is a question of a visio n for Ma nitoba which we do n ot see coming from this particular fr ont be nch.

Ontario has mov ed quickly to set up its labour ad justmen t board s to deal with the training requireme nts of the i.ndustrial restructuring of No rth Amer ica which has so aff ec te d tha t prov ince. Even Saskatc he wan, which has been de vastated by the incom pre he nsible irrespon sibility of the Devi ne years, has set aside mon ey an d foc used upon that you ng and growing abor iginal po pulation and has said that we are going to put ou r mon ey into the ed ucat ion of those peop le.

1631 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 13, 1993 •

(2025) But what do we see in Ma nito ba? Speec hes and rhetor ic from th e Minister of Education (Mrs. VodrE•

Y) about ed ucation unloc king th e do or, but what we see in fac t are cuts, cuts ev ery year. It is not just this year. It is not just th e 17 programs which we,re cut at Re d River last week . In every year th ere have been cuts to some elemen t of ed ucation in Ma nito lba and, fre que ntly, cut at th e very le vels of ed ucati,:>n which give people the op portu nity to get a foo t 1:>n the lad de r. The En glish lan guage tra ining, th e bas:ic ed uc at ion , th e ad ult ed ucat ion, th e liter a,::y pro grams in the workplace , that is where th ey have chose n to cut.

It is a govern ment with only on e too l in its tool bag-cuts. It is a governmen t without ideas and witho ut visio n. We kno w th at peop le across th e globe and across Ca nad a are fa cing similar problems to Ma nitoba. So me of th em, like Alberta and British Colu mbia, have more resourc es than we do . So me like, I would say, Ne wfou ndland, Ne w Brunswick and Saskatch ewan have fe wer resources than we do . Most of them have managed to conv ey th e sense that th ere is a pol icy, th at there is a visio n, th at ther e is a pla n be hind whate ver budget th ey have prese nte d.

Ma ny ha ve re cog nized th at it is impo rta nt to look to th e future and to give peop le a sense of ho pe. It is better to be in ed ucat io n or in a job than it is to be unemp loy ed or on welfare, but th e only answer , th e only single answer th is government has is to cut. Cut spen ding and cut jo bs. Expand th e welfare rolls, cut th e places in commu nity col leges. Expand th e welfare rolls, and close th e first year of th e last op en faculty at th e university. Expand the welfare rolls, cut th e places in adult ed ucation.

Expand the welfare rolls, cut th e mo nies to municipalities whioh pro vide d for job creation. Expand the welfare ro Us, an d cut th e programs to single moth ers and the you ng peop le on soc ial allowan ces, and have them sit at ho me instead of having them in ed ucatio n, where th ey should be and where th ey want to be. The message th at co mes thr ough in th is budget is th at th ere will be no part of th e ec on omic recovery generate d in Ma nito ba. We shall simply sit here until we attr act the passing intere st of some ne w mult inational corporat io n.

Look at the adverti sements th at Ne w Brunswick offers in the Globe and Mail or in various nat io nal magazines. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Orde r, please. Cou ld I have thos e hon ourable members wanting to carry it on do it in the loge so I can hear the ho no urable memb er for Wolse le y. Ms. Friesen: Thank you , Mr. Acting Speaker. I was dra wing the members' att ention to th e way in which Ne w Brunswick has managed to use its investm en t in ed ucat io n for th e purposes of industrial ex pansio n.

Ne w Bru nswick prese nts ad verti semen ts in nati on al an d inte rn at ion al jo urn als, an d it de mon strates th e kind of investmen t th at it has placed in un iversity research labs. It uses its university research and its re search statio ns as part of a way of attr actin g industrial activity in Ne w Brunswick. What cou ld we put, it struck me, aga inst th ose Ne w Brunswick ad ve rtisemen ts ?

A co mmu nity co llege system whose capital budget has been cut by 50 perce nt, a commu nity co llege system whose en ro llme nts and whose co urses have been reduced year after year in Ma nitoba, a univers ity system whose build ings are crumbling and for which the governmen t has this year cut 50 perce nt of their grants in capital budgets? We simp ly ca nn ot sta nd up to th ose ad vertiseme nts and say: Look, here is Ma nitoba 's com mitm ent to ed ucation, he re is our plan. We may not be able to fund th is year, but two, three years do wn th e line , yes, we are going to put money in ed ucation. •

(2030) There is no plan, no sense of vision, no direc tion to th e future fr om this governmen t. It is simply a governmen t ad rift. We are going to put against th ose Ne w Brunswick ad vertiseme nts, th at Ne w Brunswick plan, a labour forc e th at is bec om ing on e of lo ng-term unem ploy ment with little upgrading of skills, an ed ucation sector that is con stantly, yearly be ing scaled do wn an d mad e available to a narro wer and narrower

section of the populat ion .

April 13, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1632 We ha ve a yo un g an d grow ing abo riginal po pulation whose acc ess programs have again been cut, who have lost thei r institution al support such as frie ndship ce ntres and whose political vo ice, th e Assembl y of Ma nitoba Ch iefs, th is gover nment rarely wants to hear. The northe rn co llege has lost 14 perce nt of its funding and th e Distance Education

section of th e de partment, which might have had th e op po rtunity to ex pand th e range of op tions and the availability of th e be ginnings of post-secondary ed ucat ion in many of ou r no rther n and rural com munities, was largely cut in the ne w changes in the Dep artmen t of Educat io n. Whe re is th e investm ent in research facilities th at Ne w Bru nswick of fe rs? Whe re is th e op en ed ucation system th at British Co lumbia is striving fo r? Whe re are th e worker adjustment and training pro grams th at Onta rio has?

Where is the pressu re on th e fe de ral government fo r th e changes in th e EPF pro gram and th e changes in the stude nt loa n pro grams? Whe re is th e pressure on th e fe de ral government to de velop some nation al pro grams and nat ional co -op er atio n in ed ucation? Whe re are th e pro po sals fo r re gio nal co-o peration in ed ucat io n in Ma nitoba such as we are seeing in th e mo st re ce nt re view on univer sities in Saskatchewan, where th ey are looking fo r co -o peratio n from th ei r pro vincial partne rs on eith er side of th em ? Whe re is the th inking in th is cabinet?

Wh e re is the sense of the futu re and th e dire ct io n, th e conte xt fo r Ma nito bans? The re seems to be no imagination an d no visio n, no inno vation, no assista nce ev en to school boards, trustees and teachers to he lp th em find ways of do ing mor e, pe rha ps, Mr. Acti ng Speake r, co llec tivel y, with th e less th at th is government is pre pared to give to ed ucat io n. The re is simply a minister who sits and essentially says, cut, cut.

Where is th e planning fo r co-o perat ion, for re gion al ization of pro grams, fo r some kind of colle ct ive action to he lp these peop le get thr ou gh th e difficult situation th at this gove rnment is putt ing them in? It seems to me, as I hear from man y of my co nstituen ts, th at it is so very difficu lt to get thr ou gh to any govern me n t office these days, th at th is entire gover nment is on call fo rwarding, passing on to oth e rs th e probl ems th at th ey have created. If we listen to th e Chamber of Co mme rce, th e futu re fo r ed ucation in th is pro vince is indee d bleak.

In th ei r latest ne wslette r th ey tell us th e question th at we have to ask our selves is not , ho w will we survive with 2 pe rce nt less in ed ucat io n th is year, but, quote , rat her, ho w can I significantl y improve th e quality of ed ucation with 25 pe rce nt less. That is th e word from headq uarters. That is th e word from mission co ntrol do wnto wn. Is th at th e route th is gover nmen t is going? We have no reaso n, th ey have given us no reaso n to expec t an ything bette r. The second area, Mr.

Acting Speake r, I would suggest, of long-te rm significance fo r Ma nitobans is th e attack on th e public sector th at has been a fundam en tal part of all th e To ry refo rms of th e last five years but which have reach ed a ne w virulence with this budget of 19 93. By reducing th e funds fo r public ed ucation and increasing the su ppo rt fo r private, el ite ed ucat io n over th e years, th e Filmon To ries are making cho ices th at will af fe ct th e futu re of Ma nitoba for a generat io n.

By cutting com munity co lle ges and giving increase d funds to th e private sector to train peop le at the rate of mor e th an $600 an ho ur, such as th ey do in th e Wo rkfo rce 2000 pro gram , th ey ar e limiting th e acc essibility of Ma nitoban s to po st-secon da ry ed ucat io n. They are spen ding public mon ey on a form of ed ucation which may have some tr aining me rit, but which is not open to all, possibly not even all within th e co mpan y which is of fe ring th e training, only to those who are selec te d by managemen t, on what basis we do not know, an d over which we have no influe nce .

Whe n th e Rlmon To ries cut lite racy pro grams and cut the en try le vel secretaria l and oth er skills at Re d River Commu nity Co llege, th ey are· limiting th e opp or tu nity to even get a foot on th e ladde r of basic ed ucation to th ose who can aff ord th e $5, 000 or $6, 000 charged by th e private scho ols fo r such programs. In ed ucation th ey have cut th e public sphere and ex pande d th e private and individual training. It is mor e ex pensive. It is mor e ex clusive.

It is less likely to result in a po rtable cre de ntial, and indeed it is difficu lt to believe th at any sensible perso n would reje ct th e cost-e ffe ctiveness and th e intern at io nal reco gnition available in public ed ucation. Fundamentall y, To ries reje ct the public sector. Their att acks this year and last year on public secto r

1633 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 13, 1993 workers should rea lly be seen in this con te xt. Eve n if there had no t been a fina ncial crunch, there wo1Jid ha ve bee n at tem pts to cha nge the na ture of governmen t in Manit oba. The Ministe r of Rna nce (Mr. Ma nness) is an ideologue, as close to Hayek as anyone I have ev er met in governme nt. He believes that governmont shou ld be minimal, that it shoul d be the purcha!1e r of services from the private sector, and tha t is the road he is taking us do wn, some years a little faster tha n ot he rs.

Whe n this governmen t gave public mon ey to Dave's Quick Print to tra in worke rs to take the place of Quee n's Pr inte r wo rke rs, it was merel y reflecting the visio n of the Minister of Finance. The privatizing of the sign shop in Dauph in, the privatizing of agricultural labs, the privat izing of data services, the turning ov er of ro ad s to vo lunteer s, the privat izati1)n of the the rapists in the Departmen t of Education, the turning of them into private con tractors is all part of the same patte rn.

In all of these cha nges, it is likely that the wag,as of the majo rity will de cline, en abling us to co mp e,te eventually on the same le vel playing field as Me xic:o. The wealth of a few will increase and the living stan dar ds of the man y will de cline.

It is here in those de clining living standa rds, in that loss of jo !Js and the increase in lo ng-te rm unem ploy men t, tha t you will really begin to feel the impact of the loss of the public sector, for these To ries hit you twice: on ce when you lose you r jo b; and again when you try to fi nd a place in the shrinking com muniity co lle ge, when you try to find public transport , the public library, the public culture of zoo or museum, the sports even t tha t rece ives public mon ey but which is now price d beyond you r mean s, or you try to take you r fa mily to the recr ea tio n ce ntre tha t the Tories at City Hall tried to eliminate in the ir last budget.

Thou gh I would no t en do rse ever ything tha t Micke y Kraus ad vo cates in his trea tise on civil libe ralism, I do bel ieve that he is right to dra w ou r att e ntio n to the ro le of public institutions and the public sector in ma intaining a sense of commu nity in an increasingly unequal society. The public secto r, the museum, the gallery, the zo o, the com munity clubs, the schools and co lleges, which I heard the member ac ro ss the way simp>ly refe r to no w as the public trou gh-yes, that is exact ly what the y think of it.

That is why this governme nt has no sense of vision and no perspec tive on the future of Manitob a. Those institutions, those public institu tions, that publ ic se ct or are where the immigrant family and the Tuxedo family mee t as equals, where abor iginal stude nts and those from rural and northern Ma nitoba meet for the first time, quite ofte n, and as equals.

Be yon d that sense of equality that the public sector gives us, the prov ision and mainte na nce of public services in health, parks, tra nsport, et ce tera, en able us all to have some a ccess on an equal basis to some of the elements of a common minimum stand ard of living. The attack on public services puts this in jeop ardy.

The loss of a thousand civil servan t pos ition s, the loss of trust of ou r public servants as this governmen t broke its prom ises again and its co ntrac ts yet again with its own labou r force are all part of this drive to diminish the role of the public sector in Ma nitoba , an d we must see them to gether. They follow . They are in conte xt. They fol lo w, I bel iev e, from a very diffe rent perspect ive on our com munit y. *

(2040) Whe n To ries diminish the public secto r, the y are no t on ly al ter ing the so cial rela tions of our co mmunity, they are also taking large areas of ou r da ily life out of the light of public accou ntability. It is a po licy which fits well with the broader goals of the nation al and muhinational corpora tions who form such a substan tial part of the list of fi nancial suppo rte rs of this and every Tory government. Lim ited gove rnmen t mean s limi te d publ ic accou ntability.

That is the po litical env iro nmen t of choic e for thos e whose goal it is to maximize the profit s for the ir shareholders, but it is no t ne cessarily in the best interes t of the com munity of Ma nitoba . (Mrs. Lo uise Dacquay, Deputy Speake r, in the Chair) Ma dam De put y Speake r, thi s is wid ely re co gnized, no t on ly in the press but acr oss Ma nitoba as a mean budget which has falle n heavily on the po or , the eld erly an d, I would ad d, the students .

It betrays a government with no vision and very little ho pe or imagination to off er for the fu ture . h is this absence of lead ership which is particularly striking, espec ially fr om a Prem ier who has bee n in off ice since 1 988 and in public office for a good deal longer. But he no longer has the luxury of those good ec onomic times when he and his colleag ues in

April 13, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1634 cabinet were on City Cou ncil and create d those huge capital de bts and lef t us with an ov ere xte nde d suburban city. He is no lo nger leader of the op position when he co uld launch his po litical att acks on the govern ment of Ho ward Pa wley who had a lo wer de bt, were comm itte d to public ed ucat io n, had a lo wer unem ployme nt rate, and in 19 88 left them a surplus of $58 millio n tha t even his own minister no w ad mits to . In a few mo nths, the Prem ier will no lo nger have Brian Mulroney to kick arou nd or to fight elec tions against.

An Honourable Member: Kim Cam pbell. Ms. Friesen: Kim Cam pbell -will he be fighting the ne xt Ma nitoba elec tio n on what my son calls those ov ere xpose d should ers of hers? He will have to face the vo ters, those who are appearing every week on the ste ps of his own Le gislature . He will have to defend the six years of his government. The crisis of lead ership I think is an important on e, Ma dam Deputy Speaker.

I had the pleasure of ta lking to a Tory po llster on my pho ne before I came here to night, a po lling co mpany which did no t ex ist in the pho ne book which only had two question s: Are you going to vo te Tory, an d, what is the issue? That is what the y are phoning arou nd for this very night as we speak. I am sure that the Tory po lling and the Minister of Education 's (Mrs. Vod rey) focus groups have to ld them of the an xiety and uncertainty tha t is present at all levels of our com munity.

Ind eed I think tha t the publ ic re latio ns, the market ing of this budget, you know, the Finan ce ministe r with his head in his hands, the most diff icult de cisio n in my life, etc et era, al l of these are att em pts to play on Ma nitoban s' fear of the fu ture I think are indica tio n s tha t the govern men t does unde rstand some of the appre hen sion an d the anx ieties which are ou t there in the co mmunity to day.

Ho w muc h mo re re pre he nsible it is, Ma dam Deputy Speaker, then to offe r a budget of no hope , to off er a budget which cuts peop le off from any op po rtunity, which cuts off the ir amb ition to impro v e the ir lo t, a budget which te lls the m no t to ex pe ct any assista nce from th e ir co mmu nity , from th e ir ne ighbours, and a budget which is couche d again in the big lie tha t this government has maintained since its ince ption, tha t it has no t raised taxes.

No w to this ou tright de ce ptio n the y have ad ded anoth er insult to the col lect ive inte llige nce of Ma nitoban s tha t we are all being asked to share the pain equally. As I refle cte d on the quality of lead ership which the Tory front bench is off er ing, I was reading at the same time the au to biography, a We st Indian au to biog ra phy, C. L .R.

James, a writer on inter natio nal aff airs particularly kno wn for his sport s writing but also a man with a very intern ational ou tlook who, in re viewing the affa irs of his own life , the interna tiona l eve nts of wars and de stitution and fam ine and changes in col on ialism an d imperialism that he had seen, said he finally came to the co nclusion that old em pires would fall , times would pass, ne w em pires would ta ke their place; the relation of co untries and the re lations of classes all would change.

But what I disco vered, he said, is tha t it is no t the quality of good s or the ir ut ility or perhaps even their distributio n which matt er, but it is that sense of mov ement of a com munity, no t where you are or what you have, but knowing where you have com e from , where you are going and the rate at which you are getting there. It is tha t sense of perspe ctive . It is tha t sense of histor ical conte xt, and it is tha t sense of purpose which we ex pe ct from our po litical leaders to give peop le tha t sense of conte xt and direction tha t they are taking us.

This budget has to ld us where the de bt is going and ho w the minister plans to deal with tha t, but the governme nt, the Prem ier (Mr. Filmon ) has given us no sense of where we are going as a co mmunity. No r is this an acc ide nt or an ov ersight, because this govern me nt fu nd ame nta lly beli ev es that it is soci et y's role to fu lfill the goals of the market ec on om y. It is so cie ty's fu nction to serve the ec onom y. The Prem ier himself be lieves that his only job is to stand aside and let the market rule.

We believe and I think most Canadians believe tha t ec on om ies shou ld serve socie ties, tha t they should serve clear so cial goals. Our main focus as a co mmunity shou ld be directed to ho w we are going to face the fu ture in a ne w No rth America. Ho w can we create a new Ma nitoba from the mix of recent immigrants, old settlers, farmers an d urban aboriginals? Ho w can we find jo bs for our peopl e in the so-call ed jo bless recovery? Ho w do we ed ucate our young peop le so tha t they can creat e a fu ture for themse lves in this place?

Ho w can we find ne w strate gies for co -o peration with our ne ighbours to the east and to the west and to the south? Ho w can

1635 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April13, 1993 we maintain a public sector which fosters th at sen13e of com munity of which we are proud in Ma nitoba and which has enabled us to create a society which has mainta ined a kind of harmony over th e years? Shou ld we not ex pect a budget to add ress th �3e issues? Shou ld we not ex pect some social visio n from th e Premier (Mr. Rlmon ) or th e Ministe r of Fina nce (Mr. Ma nness )?

Eu rop ean po litic al co mmen tators ha ve writte n re ce ntl y on the loose ning of th e bo nds between th e citizen and the state as right-wing governments like th e Ma nito ba Tories have co nt inued the ir unde rmining of the so cial ro le of th e state . As Ma rtin Wo ollacott put it in February th is year, quote : The bond betwee•n nation an d citi zen is in da nger of snap ping. Our ec onom ic crisis is going to become unmanageablle unless we can find a language of co mmon appe ,al which brings us togeth er.

In this budget, we find no such com mon bon d, only an assault on th e poor by those who temp or arily ho ld th e reins of po wer. As states fail to ho no ur their bond with their own citi zens, so citizens with dra w th ei r alle giance. We face a future like that of Los Angeles or Liverpool , Detroi t or Be lfast, of so many oth er areas of th e globe where warfare betwee n peop les within th e state are part of th e daily lives of so many fam ilies. As a co mmunit y, I th ink, we face th e pros pe ct of a loss of co nfidence, and our re cen t history has brou ght us to th is.

The retreat from governance by this and oth er Tory governments has weakened the ties th at bi nd us to ea ch other in a diverse mult icultural com munity such as we have in Canad a and Ma nitoba. It is th e state amongst oth e rs which gives us a frame work for our sense of com munity .. Whe n we th us reduce th e role of the state, we are gradually but inevitably diminishing our public and formal sense of respon sibility for each other an d ou r sense of who we are.

Multicultural states may bEl, as Be ne dict Anderson wo uld argue, imagine d com munities, but th ey are our larger com munity in Canada an d in Manito ba. Re ce nt co mme ntators who have looked at the impact of th e last 20 years of th e free market and its gove rnmen ts have un de rl ined th e changes in co mmu nity con fid en ce th at all of th ese have ev en tua lly brou ght.

The loss of sov ere ignt y to larger trading bloc ks and th e loss of democr atic control to transnational co mpan ies have all bee n signific ant, but eq ually so has th e growth of unem plo ymen t in states whe re pre viou sly th e citizen co uld cou nt on a po licy or even a pros pe ct of full em plo yment. It was on e of the co nditio ns of citizenship for so man y peop le since th e Second Wo rld War, an d the state, just as it is here in Ma nitoba, is on e of the on es which is thr ow ing its own peop le on the scrap heap. *

(2050) If there is to be a re sto rat io n of co nfidence in go vern me nt, in th e co mmu nity , in our self-c onfid e nce , it has to be gin, it seems to me, with some of four pillars of com mon sense. We must have a clearly artic ulate d goal of full em ploy ment. Citi zenship requires it. We must have an ed ucation system, particularly at th e post -seco ndary level, which teaches and ed ucates in many ways a muc h more substantial pro porti on of ou r po pulatio n.

We must have a firm comm itment to a public sector which ex presses ou r sense of equality an d which en comp asses th e basic de ce ncy an d fairness of Ma nito bans, an d we must have a Premier and a governmen t who can be truste d to keep a contract, who have the ho nesty to call a tax a tax and whose instinct is to protect th e poo r and th e po werless.

We need a gover nment with th e ex pe rience of com munity de velop ment in job creation, com mitte d to public ed ucation and de dicate d to the idea th at Ma nitoba is indeed a society an d not merely on e million individuals at the me rcy of th e global market. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Ma dam Dep uty Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to rise tod ay to co ngratulate ou r Ministe r of Rn an ce (Mr. Ma nness) on a fi nely craf te d bu dget an d a prese ntation of a plan for th e future ec on om ic stability of th is pro vince .

I am , I suppose, some what amused when I liste n to th e Lead er ofthe official op po sition (Mr. Doer ) and his dissertation of our Lead er an d his criticism of our Minister of Finance an d the Premier (Mr. Filmon ) of this pro vince.

I want to say, Ma dam Dep uty Speake r, th at if this provi nce had co ntinued on th e ec on om ic pat h th at the so cialist governmen t of the pre vious number of de cades in this prov ince had been allowed to be mainta ined, had th e elec to rate chosen to re-elec t those who no w sit op pos ite, I fear that we would be in a very similar type of a situation th at Ontario is, or

April 13, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1636 that ot her pro vinces in th is cou ntry face tod ay, an d/o r maybe even we as a nation face to day. The reason I say this, Madam De puty Speake r, is because the mentali ty of those who have governe d in this pro vince, that me ntality simply dictated to those peop le gover ning here, that in order to so lve a pro blem you have to thr ow money at it. The mor e money you thr ow at a pro blem, the easier it will go away.

I make the case befo re this Ho use today that that is why the unem ploy ment ro lls in this pro vince have been as high as they were and are on the do wnward tr end in this pro vince because of the budgeta ry finesse and the budgetary daring that th is government has chosen to implement ov er the last fo ur years. I say to the mem ber s op po site that had we ke pt on increasing ex penditu res in all ofthe de partments, as the honou rable memb er for Wo lseley (Ms.

Friesen) just indicate d we shou ld, had we ke pt on spending without co ncer n fo r those who have to, in the final analysis, pay the bill, we would, in fact , break the backs, or have broke n the backs of ou r children and their children. So it is time we realized that we must spend within our means, and those of us who thi nk that we can wildly spend without cons ider ation of who pays the bill sometime down the ro ad or who pays the inter est cost of debt that we incur tod ay are only fool ing themse lves.

I thi nk we have in th is provi nce foo led ou rselves fo r too lo ng, because it is the financial institutions, not withi n this prov ince , not withi n this cou ntry, but financial institutions outsid e of this co untry that have tol d pro vin ces suc h as Ne wfoun dl and and Saskatchewan that you bette r get you r ec onomic house in order or the re will not be any mor e bo rro wing. That is the situati on that we face in this pro vince as well. If we would do as the honou rable mem ber fo r Wolse ley (Ms.

Friesen) said we should do , if we would just co ntinue the mentali ty of spend , spend, spend , bo rro w, borro w, borro w, we would soon have borro wed our selves into ob livion. We would in fa ct be face d with a situation whereb y, whether we chose to or not, we would have to face the social ist type of ap proach to gove rnment that cou ntries such as the U.S.S.R. and other so cialist co unt ries have face d fo r the last 70 years and loo k where it got them . Let us take a real hard look today. Let us lo ok at agricultu re and Jet us do some co mparisons.

Let us lo ok at the U.S.S.R. and look at how eff icient their prod uctive system was. I just heard the mem ber fo r Wo lse ley say that we are in fac t selling off agricultural land to the private sector. Who best can op e rate and who best can produ ce fo od in th is pro vince than the private sector farm com munity? We have not had- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please . Point of Order Ms.

Friesen: On a po int of or de r, befo re the mem ber gets carried away and so that he does not get too much into this I did say "lab," not "land." Madam Deputy Sp eak er: The honou ra ble mem ber fo r Wo lseley do es not have a po int of or de r. It is a dispute ov er the facts. *** Mr. Penner: I apol ogize if I have treaded on the sacre d feelings of someb ody who has just caused us to listen to th ree- quarte rs of an hou r of dissertat ion as to why they should be in gover nment and we shou ld not.

Let me tell you, Madam De puty Speaker, it is my view that the people of Manitoba have cho sen wisely to banish them fo re ver from gover ning in this pro vince . I had the op por tu nity to atte nd to d ay two functions, and we have heard some criticism about the ed ucation system in thi s pro vince and the so-c alled de crease in spendi ng to ed ucat ion in th is provinc e. We ll, Jet me say to yo u that I att end ed today a graduation ex er cise of 30-s ome- od d stude nts who were not in the nor mal classroom sett ing. These stude nts went to school at the Friesen col le ge.

It is a newly op ene d col le ge, which is a col lege that teaches business and the practical app lication of business on the jo b. Ma dam De puty Speaker, these pe ople learned the art of printing and the print ing industry, and these 30- so me-odd stude nts were graduates today of that industry, and they will co ntribute to the wealth and the well-being of the peop le of this provinc e. They will be ab le to ap proa ch the workforce with co nf idenc e that they have the ab ility to pro vide the services that are need ed today in tod ay's soci ety and be pro duct ive citi zens of this prov ince .

I co ngratulate those graduates fo r taking the initiat ive to fu rther their ed ucat ion on the jo b, Madam De puty Speaker, on the jo b. And the Friesen co llege was largely fund ed by a pro gram that we initiated, the Wo rkfo rce 2000 program, which, if you

16 37 LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 13 , 19 93 look at the budget, co ntribute d almost $3 million toward the bette rment of ad ults and those in this pro vince who want to increase their knowledge an d be able to be c ome bette r equ ippe d to serve the businesses they work fo r. • (21 00) Mad am De puty Speaker , as you can also see in the Wo rkforce 2000 presentation that was mad e only a short while ago, the business co mmunity in this pro vince cont ributes anot her almost $6 million to that program, so we, in fact, attr act private sectc1r fund ing to ed ucation on an ongoi ng basis, which I believ e is very bene f icial to ed ucat ion as a whole.

Wh en you package those amou nts of money , the total amount co mes to almost $1 0 million, and if yo u subtr ac t that amount from the amount of the so-c alled de crease in ed ucat ion spen ding that the op po sition so cialist party refe rs to, you will find th�1t we are almost equal to the same amou nts of do llars spent onl y in diff e rent areas and in diffe rent ways, and diff e rent secto rs pay in a diff erent manner fc•r the ed ucation of some of ou r peop le in th is prov ince•. Mad am De puty Speake r, I bel ieve that truly th�1t is the way of the future.

Education, in my view, will be an ongoing thing, that people will refe r time and time again back to, to ensure that they are, in fac l:, able to meet the de man ds of a very quickly chan gin9 world. But when you listen to the op po sition members today and over the last fo ur or fi ve days of the de bat•e of this budget, you would believe that these peop l•e had in fact no vision at all. They sit ther e and they say that we must do th ings as we used to do or els•e we are on the path of dest ruct ion.

We ll, let me say to you, Mad am De puty Speake r, that the only way to ensure an ec onom ic disaste r in th is pro vince is by maintain ing the path that the NDP gover nment was on prio r to us taking ov e r. So me peop le would say that we in fac t were not tou gh enoug h in the appl ication of re duction c•f spen ding, and I bel i eve, Mad am De puty Speake r, that in some areas we cou ld ha v e made mor •e revisions to ou r spen ding Estimates.

Wh en I loo k ��t the budget and the pe rcentage of reduction in the various de partments, I would propose to you thl:lt ther e is ro om to de fine even mor e clo sely ou r ex pend itures fo r a futu re pe rio d of time.

I see th is budget as a fou r-year guide that will lead us, in the final anal ysis, to a balanced or a be tte•r than balan ced budget, and if ou r re venues keep on increasing ever so slightly over that fou r-year period of time, the people of this provi nce will be in an excellent co mpetitive position to attr act not only industry but to attract peop le to invest inte rnally to ex pand ou r business sector and ou r service sector . That is where the em ployment opportu nities are. Wh en I visited the D.W.

Friesen plant today, and we looke d at their op eration emp loy ing bette r than 400 peop le in a small rural communi ty, and when I looke d at the graduates who had just graduate d from the D. W. Friesen co llege and how the y applied the ir skills to com pe te in the inte rna ti onal marketp lace, I saw a sense of pride, not only in the owner s but in the em ployees as well, be cause they were prou d of what they did and who they worke d for and how they were able to co ntribute to their co mmun ity.

I have heard on a number of oc casions, whether it is the critic for Health on the NDP side, whet her it is the critic in Education, whethe r it is the critic for Agricultu re, talk about not spend ing the ent ire amount of a budgeted line in a given de partment. We ll, Mad am De puty Speake r, on ou r farm and in ou r business, a budget is simply a guideline that we set for ou rselves so that we can sort of dete rmine a path fo r the operations of that given business or given farm. It is a guideli ne that we try to stay within.

They are estimates of inco me and estimates of ex pen ditu res ov er a period of time. I do not thi nk government is any different than a business is or a farm is, and when we do not spen d, fo r instance in ou r fe rtilizer line , the total amount of money at the end of the year, we do not go to all extremes to ensure that all the money will be gone. If we can, in fact, ne gotiate a bette r price fo r the fert ilizer than what we had estimate d it would co st, we save money at the end of the year, and ther e will be a surplus shown in that bu dgeted amount. I do not think that government is any diffe rent.

The ex per ience that I had when I was the Ministe r of Rural De velop ment indicate d clearl y to me that if we co uld buy the mate rial that we wanted to buy at a lesser price than what we had budgeted for, we would have a surplus at the end of the year in that line. Similarly in Health , if we can do thi ngs ec onom icall y and serve peop le bette r at the same time, we are going to end up with, in a given line, a surplus.

April 13, 1993 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1638 Shou ld we go out and ruthlessly at the end of the year make ever y eff ort to spend ever y dol lar that we can to satisfy the need s of a printe d number ? Madam De puty Speaker, that is what the NDP philosop hizes to do , and that is what the y say we should do . We ll, that is what they have do ne for the last 15 years prio r to us taking over government. Wh at did it get us?

It got us a de bt of which we incurred some $550 million worth of inte rest on, which our children, yo ur childre n and my children, are going to have to keep on paying the bills for, wheth er we like it or not. Can you imagine the kind of additional health care, the ad ditional ed ucation, the ad ditional natu ral resou rces or the ad ditional ex pend itures that we cou ld enc ou rage ind ustries to establish he re to pro vide jo bs, with $550 million annually?

Ha d they been fiscall y responsible, had they chosen to not spend beyo nd thei r means, we would not onl y have a balanced budget this year, we would have a surplus of some $300 million. We cou ld have reduced the taxes by a very significant amount. The honou rable member for Swan River (Ms. Wo wchuk) cou ld in fact go home and say, yes, yo ur taxes will be reduced . Yes, we have a greate r amount of money that we can suppo rt you r agriculture in your area. Yes, we can go look afte r the beaver pro blem that you are incurring in that area. There is money to do these kinds of thin gs. But now ther e is no thing.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I have heard fr om peop le whom I have had the op po rtunity to talk to over the last week, and I have tal ked to many. I think I visited virtually ever y coffee shop in my co nstituency ov er the last week. It gave me a great deal of pleasure and gave me a desire to co me back here to relay some of the things that I have heard , because they were co ngratulating this government on its budget.

The y were in fact te lling me that we should have taken mor e of the pro pe rty tax cre dit, because they said we are only fool ing ou rselves, because the prope rty tax cre dit is taking it out of one hand and giving it with the other. They said we sho uld have taken it all be cause it is only a fudging of numbers. I think they are right.

We sho uld in fac t have reduce d the prop ert y tax cre dit by $325, and then the taxes would really reflec t what the true co sts are of operat ing within a given municipality. * (2110 ) I recognize that it is not always po ssible to do that, and when you give some thing away one year, that it is thr ee times mor e diffi cult to take it back the next.

The refore , I have a great deal of reservation about prov iding cre dits and all those kinds of th ings because I believe that when you sto p them-an d ther e are times when you must sto p them-people in fa ct loo k very critical, but this time arou nd they were not critical.

This time, they co ngratulate d this government for taking the right kind of action, fo r reducing ou r fuel to ou r tr anspor tation system, that ou r transpo rtation system cou ld in fact be enhanc ed , that we co uld in fac t remain viable, be cause far mer s in this co untry and in this pro vince de pend prob ably mor e than any ot her secto r of soc iety in this co untry an ywhere else, be cause ou r agricultural produ ce de pend s on a good solid transpo rtation system, whether it be thr ou gh the highway system, the railway system or ot her means or by water.

We de pend on a good transpor tati on system to mov e our good s to market. That, Madam De puty Speake r, is what we have ta rgeted, in a large part, prov incial and fed eral do llars to, to ensure that the transpor tation system will in fac t be in place . We have done some ot her fai rl y innov ati ve th ings, I be lie ve. We hav e enc ou raged industries in this pro vince, and that is not a new phenomenon. I can look at the sugar industry in this pro vince; that is a relativel y unique ind ustry.

It takes a produ ct from its rawest for m, pro cesses it, packages it and sells it ac ro ss the co unte r in this pro vince. There are very few other industries like it. Yet that industry com petes dire ctl y with subsidized ind ustries, I sho uld not say "subsidized,w with tar iff industries in every othe r sugar-p rodu cing co untr y in the world. Canad a is the onl y co untry in the worl d that do es not tariff, to any great de gree, raw sugar com ing into this co untry to allow it to be refined and used here. I was talking to some of my Amer ican fr iend s over the weekend.

One of them was the vice -president of the Cr ystal Sugar Com pany and he produc es sugar beets right across the bo rder fr om me. He was inte reste d in why this co unt ry, why Canad a would not apply a similar ty pe of a program to its sugar that the Amer icans do, be cause the Amer icans apply the same ty pe of a tar iff to sugar co ming in to their co un tr y tha t all other su gar-produ cing nations do, all 42 cou ntries. Yet we do not.

16 39 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 13, 1993 We , Madam De puty Speaker, asked our pro vin<:e an d ou r fe de ral government and the produ ce rs to jo in together in what is called a tripa rtite stabilizatic1n program and are asking produ cers to pay into a plan to maintain an industry that is being largel y abuse1d by fo reign inte rests. The com petit ion is not real co mpetition that we face, or thatthe sugar produce1·s face in this prov ince, and that Manitob a Sugar thoat pro cesses the sugar beets in this pro vince faces.

It is an unfair co mpetitio n that they fa ce, because it is onl y the surplus sugars that othe r cou ntries do not use that are dumped into Canad a fo r whatever thE1y can get. The real price of sugar has no refle ction en what raw sugar is sold fo r in Canad a, and yet we have aske d the prod uce r to suppo rt an d maintain his ow n ind ustry. The 800 producer s in Alberta and Manitoba are face d with a situation where they have incurred ovor the last number of years very, very significant lo sses due to the fa ct that sugar was selling in this co untry fo r 2 and 3 cents a po und .

It was selling fo r 16 cents a po und in the Unite d States because that is what the tar if f ap plied was plus what the marketpl ace de manded . The American ag program guarant ees the floo r price of sugar in Nor th Dakota to 23.39 cents a po und and, yet, last year the sugar sales in this pro vince were seven cents a po und . Yet the provinc e of Manitoba and the fe de ral gover nment did not contribute to the maintenanc e last year of that industry or the sugar prod ucers. They did it by themselv es.

Let me ask those op posite whether that in fa ct is true co mpetition, whether that is prod uctivity by the raw pro duce rs, and whethe r the y can in fact be said to be co mpetitive? I think they are mor e than com petitive . I am no t sure whether the re finery, whether the sugar factory in this prov ince, will in fac't run this year, because pro duce rs have told me very lo ud ly and very clearly ov er the last week that the y simply will not plant unless they get a co mpetitive and a fair price . That to me is only fair.

There are ot her industries in this prov ince that we can look at that have had a tr emend ous impact on the farm sector. The o ther one is, of co urse, the c1il crushin g ind ustry. The honou rab le mem ber fo r Swan River (Ms. Wo wchuk) would well re cognize the tremend ous bene fits that the oil see d crushing industries have had in this prov ince, not only in this pro vince but in all of western Canad a, and what the oil seed cro ps have do ne fo r western Canad a.

Wo uld it not have been fo r a small industry such as CSP Foods-who were at first known as CVO, and it was a plant that was owne d by farmer s, op erated by farmers, built by farmers. Had it not been fo r CVO that had de mo nstrated that you co uld in fact produ ce econom icall y an oil, an edib le oil , from a plant that grew well in western Canad a, I dou bt whethe r we would have an industry, whether the oi lseed industry would be what it is today.

Those pio nee rs, in my view , need to be co ngratu lated fo r having the vision, and I believe that we have young peop le in this pro vince tod ay that have that same kind of vision if we on ly allow them to exer cise and enc ou rage them to exe rcise them, but that means that we must get government out of their hair. That means that the ov er -regulated system we are into must be dealt with, because I hear time and time again peop le saying, why must we have mor e regulations than le gislation? Why must we be bo mbarded with rules and laws that do not allow us to ope rate as we will?

Wh y do you not allo w us to be tr uly com p etitive? We have a situation whereb y we cou ld pro bably pro vide all the, or almost all the, produ ct that is nee ded in No rth Dakota and in the Unite d States to make pasta. We produ ce bett er durum wheat than they ever co uld hop e to produce in the United State s. We produce bett er canola, bette r ed ible oil in this co untry than they co uld ever hop e to pro duce in the Unite d States, and that ap plies to man y oth er co untries of this worl d. Yet we put re gulations, restrictions, proh ibitions in place that do not allo w access into the Unite d State s.

The peop le across t he way will call it free trade .

I call it simply doi ng away with regulations and legislation and tariff s that have caused us to build artific ial walls around ou rselves in the name of prote ction, and by doi ng so we have relegated ou rselves nonc om petiti ve . * (21 20) So when I talk to my U.S. neighbours, friend s of mine, whether it be about the sugar industry, or whether it be about the wheat ind ustry, or whether it be about the canol a ind ustry, or whether it, in fact, be about the bean ind ustry which is gaining strength in southern Manitoba and will gain stren gth because new varieties are com ing out that need shorter seasons to grow and matu re in, so again, the y say, we are willin g to pro vide ind ustr ies, to build

April 1 3, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1640 industries in co -operation with you , if you are only willing to co-op erate with us. I have heard the honourabl e mem ber fo r Swan River (Ms. Wo wchuk) time and time again critic ize ou r Min ister of Agriculture (Mr. Findla

y) fo r even tryin g to discuss freer markets. Should we not dis cuss in Canad a , with in Canad a, a freer mov ement of goods , or should we keep on building little walls aro und a million peop le in this great cou ntry of ou rs? Shou ld we not speak to ou r ne ighbours to the east, the 11 million, 12 million people living to the east of us? Should we not talk to them about free ing up the markets in Quebec and Ontario ?

Should we not in that same breath not talk to ou r Amer ican friend s to see whether we cannot allow some free com pet itive spirit to ex ist when we talk about marketin g ou r agriculture pro duce or any ot her produc e? Or should we co ntinue, as they would have us do, to apply tarif fs or cha rges against eac h and ever y pro duct that we want to sell into the fo re ign market?

Wh ethe r it is in tr anspor tat ion, whether it is in industry, or whether it is in our most basic ab ility, the raw resou rces, it is time that we rec ogn ize the need to free up the basic produ cer from the kind of co ntrols that they have been subje cted to by the fe de ral Liberals ov er the last 30 or 40 years and the so cialists in this pro vince ov er the last 15 years.

If we have the vision and the will to do that, we will in fact find that the re venues that governments such as ou rs need to op erate to provid e the basic services in health care and ed ucat ion and family ser vices an d many othe r serv ices, that those revenues will start climbing, be it gradually, but they will climb, and then governmen ts will have the resou rces without spending, without ov erspen ding, without bo rrowing hug e amou nts of money, will have the reso urces to prov ide the services that my honoura ble friend s op po site talk about.

But we must stop spending mor e, and that is what this budget re fe rs to. We must start increasing ou r re venues, not by increasing the percenta ge of tax take n, but by the amount of revenue generate d thr ough the sale of g ood s and com mo dities and services. Ma dam De puty Speaker, we have talke d during the last five days about various initiatives that have been take n. There is one that I want to spend some time on ton ight, if I may. That is, of co urse, the need for water in man y of our com munities in th is pro vince.

I co me from an area where water is at a premium, and we regard good quality water very highly. Many of us have spent tens of thousan ds of do llars to ensure that we in fact have water supplies on our farms and in our homes. We starte d building a pipeline system less than 1 0 years ago, Ma dam De puty Speake r, and a treatment plant that now serves some 700 families in the R.M. of Rhineland . It now serves all the towns and villages within that municipality, outs ide of just the 700 farm families that it serves.

Yet I am some what take n aback by the ap proa ch that some mem bers of our so ciety take when we talk about furthe r ex pand ing water supplies to com munities that drast ically need wate r and question whether you can in fact dra w small amou nts of wate r out of ou r given streams and rivers to supply the need s of those com munities.

It causes me to wonder whether there is any co mpassion at all or whether ther e is any de sire at all to create a larger ec onom ic base in this pro vince, or whether we in fact want to with dra w and de cline ou r numbers, as members of some or ganizations hav e said we shou ld .

I a m ap palled , Ma da m De puty Speaker, when I hear the leader of an or ganization say that south er n Manitoba should lo ok at de clining its po pulatio n instead of increasing its po pulation, because it is a natural semi-arid part of the pro vin ce an d, there for e , is now ov erp op ulate d, and this pro vince sho uld look at ways and means of remo ving peop le from that area. That is what some of us face , and, Ma dam De puty Speaker, I say to you that we should be some what innov ative.

I pro pose to you, as I did to my cabinet co lleagues when I was in cabinet, that we should lo ok at a land and water strategy in th is pro vince , tha t we shou ld se riousl y co ns ider bu ildin g structu res that would store water in thi s pro vince that com munities cou ld in fact access and use. That , in my view, would be a tremend ous re venue gener ator for this pro vince of Manitoba. We have the peo ple. We have the human resource. We have the land base. We have the natural produ cts. We have the vision to do it.

We need the will to bring fo rward the ec onomic requ iremen ts to build those water stora ge units that we need today. The Assinibo ine Rive r basin co uld store a lot of water. The Pem bina Valle y water basin cou ld sto re a tremend ous amount of water if we chose to do it.

1641 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 13, 1993 That would cause a very significant increase in the' economic activity of southern Manitoba. We take �� very, very small amount of water out of the Reel River to supply some 10 ,0 00 people with water today. We could very easily withdraw three, four times that amount out of that river and it would nolt hurt the flows of that river one bit, Madam Deputy Speaker. That could supply four or five times the, amount of people that we supply today.

Those are the kinds of things that this budget addresses and, if we can br ing our overexpenditures into line, if we can cut our intereslt cost, then we will have the financial resources to de' those kinds of things. That is the vision that our socialist friends on the opposite side of this House, simply never had, never will have nor do they wan1t any part of. They stand there and criticize those· communities that want to and those communities' that would and those communities that will be· innovative and progressive and build this grealt province of ours. Thank you. * (21 30) Mr.

Dave Chomlak ( KIIdonan) : Madam Deput)' Speaker, actually, I think that members opposite' often have a script that is given to them by their communications czar and leader, Barb Biggar, tha·t says there are three things you must do in all debates in answering all questions and in dealin�1 with everything in the Legislature. Rrstly, you must refer to other provinces. You must refer to Saskatchewan, you must refer to Ontario, you must refer to NDP B.C. Secondly, when you get into real trouble, you begin crankin�J up the U.S.S.R. rhetoric, which I have heard in debate here.

Thirdly, you then rhetorically ask thEt question: What is your solution? What is thEt solution that you on the other side have offered? Madam Deputy Speaker, I have sat here all day listening to debate. I have listened to several members on the opposite side. I have listened to several members on this side. I thought tho member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) made a very excellent speech dealing with economics and I hopo members opposite learned something from that discourse. I thought the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen) made a very eloquent and moving statement tonight dealing with a vision and a philosophy, somethin!l that members opposite and the government opposite totally lacks. I think that very moving statement capsulized something that is evident from this budget and is evident in this government. That is, it is an ad hoc government. It is a government lacking in vision. It is a government lacking in direction and, more importantly, it is a government with no plan. There is no plan on that side of the House.

How else could you explain a government that has been bent on deficit reduction, that has been bent on cutting programs, that has been bent on stepping aside, that has the highest per capita deficit in provincial history? They have the highest per capita deficit in provincial history, and that is the government opposite that says they are going to balance the budget in four years. They have had six years, and they have moved us to a point where per capita we are the highest in Manitoba history, as the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) stated.

Eight hundred and sixty-two million dollars is sitting on their heads, and they have the audacity, Madam Deputy Speaker, and they have the courage to actually stand up and accuse us of causing this problem-six years, six budgets. The high est deficit per capita in Manitoba history and they still-Point 4 of Barb Biggar's primer: Blame it on the other people. Blame it on the other people, Madam Deputy Speaker, and that is precisely what they do. I am surprised, you know, it is the Jules Benson era that we are going into now, the same one that has gone around the school boards and blamed the deficits on the NDP.

It has now said: Look, here is the plan. We are going to balance the budget in four years. We are going to the next election on this balance the budget in four years, and you know, we heard the same thing from their mentors in the United States. Mentor Ronald Reagan in 198 5 was going to balance his budget, and he ended up with a- Point of Order Hon. Harry Enns (Mi nist er of Natural Resources): Just a question. I wonder if the honourable member would mind tabling the memo that he is reading from. Madam Depu ty Speaker: The ho nourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) does not have a point of order.

April13 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 164 2 *** Mr. Chomlak: I guess Point 5 of Barb Biggar's strate gy, Mad am De puty Speaker, is: Inter rupt as much as po ssible to mov e them off their train of thou ght. But I am surprising them, my train of thou ght really is not that lengthy. It is very short, so inte rruptions- Point of Order Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): I was just fo llowing Point 5. Madam Deputy Sp eaker: The honou rab le Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) does not have a po int of or de r. *** Mr. Chomlak: Wh ich leads us to Point 6, Madam De puty Speaker.

You know I get ti red of hearing members op po site co nstantly claim that we do not of fe r suggestions, we do not of fe r ad vice . The mem ber fo r Broa dway (Mr. Santos), the mem ber fo r Wo lseley (Ms. Friesen) of fere d very-an d I hop e members read their spee ches again and take some information from that. Pe rhaps they get back to cabinet and try to de velo p a plan at least, try to de velo p a plan. Let me cite an example of someth ing that I have be en- [i nte rje ction] Th e memb er fr om Robl in-Russell (Mr. De rkach) is saying, he is not listened to around the cabinet table.

For two years now in th is Ho use I have been aski ng memb ers ab out the ap pr oac h to government, the co -o rdination of services, and I know the Ministe r of Hea lth (Mr. Orchard ) and the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vo dre

y) have had on their desks a repo rt from the Manitob a Assoc iation of Schoo l Trustees, the Manitoba Association of Sc hoo l Su per inte nd en ts , Manit ob a sc hoo l association of business. The ministers hav e had this repo rt on their de sks since De cember 19 91 , asking fo r a re ply by De cemb er 19 91 fo r a co -or dinat ion of de livery of service. No w this repo rt does not say spend , spend, spend .

This repo rt says, by a bette r utilization of resourc es, by a be tter co- ordination of resou rces, you co uld still offe r the same services, and it do es not take a $3.9 million co nsultant to tell you that, Mad am De puty Speaker. And you kno w what, Madam De puty Speake r? There has been nary a word or reply from the ministers with respect to this. In fact, the situation has become worse. Last year, they cut a pro gram in heal th; the y did not tell the De partment of Education.

This year the De partment of He alth is cutting a pro gram, for example, an d I raise this in the Ho use, ther e is a pro gram, the rehab program was cut. The nurses from the rehab program, fo ur nurses working hal f- time, went into the school s and starte d de livering services to spec ial need s childre n.

No w that was in place of teachers' aides and teachers, and I do not want to get into that particu lar topic be cause I co uld prob ably spen d my entir e 40 minutes on it, but the po int is that they were offe ring this service at a very lo w cost as a pro totyp e based on a B.C. mod el of a prot otype program to special need s children in the school s, and we asked the minister to con sider exte nd ing the program, and the mini ste r st ood up an d sai d, the re will be annou ncemen ts in due co urse or announc emen ts will be fo r th com ing, which is somet hing we consta ntly hear.

As I understand it, the program is de ad. Those students are not re ceiving the service and that is unfort unate. That is an example of a program at very lo w cost that would cross de partmental bo und aries, that would cross de partmental pigeon hol es and that would help the children of this prov ince, but that suggestion has fallen upon deaf ears. Numerous suggestions, in fact mo st if not all of the suggestions from this side of the Ho use, fall upon de af ears.

Me mbers opposite like to turn it arou nd and say, you offer no co nstructive criti cism, all you offer is criticism and , yet, when po sitive suggestions co me fo rwar d, th ey com plete ly ignor e th em. They com plete ly ignore them and they co me back with their four or five po ints that they have been told that they must respond to or they must say, and so they cheat the proce ss. If we on this si de of the Ho use are ac cused of only carping and being negative, those on that si de of the Ho use are equally guilty fo r not respond ing to the po siti ve suggestions and for not procee ding on that basis.

Mada m De puty Speake r, ind icati ve of what hap pened in the budget last week is a phone call I received from a nurse's aide. She phoned me and said, it is extr aordinary what they are do ing in terms of what is happening in nursing homes and pe rsonal care homes and the stress that has been put on the staff and the pressure that has been put on the staf f and , incide ntally, that very same nursing home was

1643 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 13, 1993 mandate d to have its ad ministrative staff cut by 1 0 percent when ther e is only two staff, which is a difficult pro cess, mand ated by the De partment t:>f Health . • (21 40) She said, I wish you would ask Premier Film on if he would come and spen d some time in ou r nursing home just to see what is happenin g in terms of car,e. I said, well, I will not ask Premier Filmon . Becaus;e I am the Health critic, I will ask the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard), but, I have to say, the reaction from that otherwise ob je cti ve and caring individual was quite surprising when I suggested that I would make that very suggestion to the Minister of He alth. She did not respond very fa vou rably, to put it mildly. This is not an attemp t to get pe rsonal but, rathe'r, this is an attem pt to indicate the utte r feeling of hop elessness that mem bers in the co mmunity have with respec t to the De partment of Health, with respec t to the minister 's so-call ed reform plans and with respect to what is happenin g in health ca1re today.

It extend s across all bo undaries, and it is very, very sad because if we wanted a climate of refo rm, we would want a climate where peop le a1re willing to go alon g and are trusting. Unfortu nate ly, that is not the case. Pe rhaps we on this side of the Ho use blame it wholly on the gover nment but, ce rtainly, the gover nment blamos it wholly on us an d, in fact, I of ten get the impression sitting in this Ho use that the only peopl e in the ministe r's view who are in op po sition to heal th reform are the 19 Ne w Democr ats sitting on this side of the Ho use. I know that not to be true.

In fact , it is my op inion that the vast major ity of Manitob ans do not agme with what is happ en ing presently in health care , la rge ly be cause the y do no t kno w what is hap pening, largely because the minister has not com municate d, largel y because they have refus1�d to com municate with respec t to health refo rm. No w, I will tu rn to my comm ents with respect to the budget. I want to deal with a number of issue,s. Rrst is the rule of law. I was very dishearte ne d to hear the co mments of the Ministe r of Justice (Mr. McCrae) an d the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) with respE•ct to the Sunday shopp ing law and the fact that that law, de spite the fact that it was not passed by this Legislature and was not law, was not being en for o:� d by the gove rnment. I think that is unfo rtu na1te because if the re is any principle that governs us in this Cham ber and our system of government, it is the rule of law, that no pe rson is abov e the law and that the law applies equally to all, that no one is abov e it . In this case, we are de aling with a law that is not being enf or ce d, notwithst and ing all of the Premier 's (Mr.

Almon) com ments with respect to the fact that it is a regulatory-all of that is ex cuses. The fact is the Sund ay shopp in g law, if passed by this Le gislature is one thing, but the manipulation and the disrespect being shown by this government does not bo de well and is a te rrible example to ou r yo uth and to soc iety in gene ral. As the memb er fo r Ro ssmer e (Mr. Neufe ld) ind icated, a $862 -million de ficit is the largest per capita in prov incial history, and it is a sad com ment in the last six years unde r this government.

The worst aspe ct of this budget is the mean- spirite d natu re of this budget. No w, I do not think- the member fo r Rossmere was quite de fensive in his co mments. He seemed to indi cate that we on this side of the Ho use did not be lieve that the members on that side had any feeling or did not care. I think I speak fo r all of us in that this ce rtainly is not the case. I do not think that members on that side care any mor e or any less than us on this si de of the Ho use. We are all her e to do ou r jobs , and we all belie v e in ce rtain aspec ts.

Ho weve r, when it co me s to co mpet enc e, that is an entir ely anot her question. I do not believe that mem bers on that si de of the Ho use have co mpetently handled the affai rs of this pro vince fo r the past six years. I believe that this bu dget is a ex am ple, an illus tr ati on of an incom pete nce and someth ing that I stron gly believe should result in due co urse, when the elec tion co mes, in the remov al of that gover nment from office. The first issue I want to de al with, with respect to this mean- spirite d budget, is the impo sition of user fees.

I feel very strongly about this, and I think the peopl e of Man itob a feel stron gly about this. We saw the imposition of user fe es fo r air am bulanc e transpo rtation by mem bers op po site, despite the fact the ministe r tr ied to call it a co ntribution, but we have seen the introdu ction of user fees on med ical supplies and services. If you are in a hos pital and require certain of these supplies, they will be pro vide d under ou r universal -

April 13, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1644 health care plan, but now if you are remov ed to you r home, if you ar e mov ed out of a high -cost institution- somethi ng we all are adv oc ating, a mov ement fr om high -cost institutions to home care-if you mov e into your home -care facility, you have to pay for those su pplies on yo ur own. I think that is wrong. I think it erodes the base of med icare. I think the fenc e aroun d med icare is slowly erod ing, and the impo sition of user fees on those parti cular supplies is particularly galling.

Let me de al with the issue of ost omy, those peop le who have co lo stom ies, the 1 ,800 peop le in Manitoba who have no choi ce . They did not choose this med ical proce dure. In almost all cases, it was a result of a life-thr eat ening illness and it saved their lives. The y have no choi ce but to require these supplies an d what has this go ve rn men t sai d? This gover nment has said you will now have to pay a user fee. You will now have to pay a tax on these supplies. I think that is small-minded . I think that is unfortunate.

I think th e government cou ld ce rtainly do itself a goo d deal of public re lations by remov ing that particu lar provision from this budget. If they are listenin g, if they care, and I believe they do, then I think that prov ision shou ld be remov ed because I think it is particularly po or ly implemen ted and it is, in fact, a user fee. Madam De puty Speake r, the pe rsonal care home rate, the increase of 74 pe rcent in one fell swoop is unprece de nte d in this pro vince. No warning.

We asked in Question Pe riod whether or not the minister would co nsider raising the thr eshold, and I would like the gover nment to con sider that. Raise the threshold at least in te rms of what you allow peop le to keep and what you do not allow them to kee p. That would be fai rer . We are asking that and we are suggesting that. I have re ceived numer ous calls on the daycare situation, on the increase in the daily rate and on the cutback in subsidized spaces, Madam De puty Speake r.

The typi cal call is an individual who is con sider ing having to now go on social assistance or quit their job an d/o r quit school be cause they can no lo nger pay the increase d rate s by this ministe r. That is unfortu nate . As the mem ber for Wo lseley (Ms. Friesen) eloq uently put it, why is welfare the op tio n? Wh y can we not pro vide the service to those who require it ? Foste r care cuts, Mad am De puty Speake r, are anot her area that we have received numer ous calls on, and it is unfort unate with what this gover nment is do ing.

Wh en it co mes to the opposition, we have to speak for those women an d men, mo stly women, who require da ycare. We have to speak for those fami lies who require foste r care assistance. Who speaks in this Legislature fo r the children, the tens of thousan ds of children that have had their de ntal care cut? The members op posite speak nary a word, Madam De puty Speaker. We are speaking on their behalf. Wh o speaks for the children in pe diat ric surgery? Nary a word fr om memb ers op posite . The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) relies on Aggie Bishop. I do not know Aggie Bishop .

I am sure she is quite com pete nt. The Minister of He alth has not yet answered a q uestion in this Ho use dire ctly on the pediat ric bed clo sures, and I will get into that late r, Madam De puty Speaker. Who speaks to the lineu ps tha t are for ming in the hosp itals? We have to speak because no one on that side of this Chamber will do that. Who speaks for the el der ly that have seen their cutbacks ? No one, unless we on this side of the Ho use speak up for them. That is our rol e. That is ou r responsibility not just to them but the peop le of Manitob a. We will con tinue to do that.

I want to get into health care extensively in my co mments re garding the budget. Firstly, I would like to ask somet hing that I have asked the minister time and time again in the pe rio d of time sinc e I have been the Health critic, and that is, where are the alte rnati ve services in place that were promised? They are not ther e. Now I know the minister talks about Conc ord ia, Deer Lod ge, King Ed ward, the municipal hos pitals, and the announc ement that came July 19 90, I believe-[i nter je ction] May 19 90, the mem ber for The Maples (Mr. Cheema) indicates.

He talks about that, Madam De puty Speaker , but that is it. • (21 50) We have not seen any increases. No w we have seen a suppo sed saving of $6 million in the 74 pe rcent increase in nursing home fees. We have seen a saving of millions of do llars by imposin g user fees on those that re quire hosp ital supplies. I would presume that money will go into increase d home care, although I suspect it is going into def icit reduction. So those peop le who are paying for the '

1645 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 13, 1993 supplies now know that they are paying do wn the de fi cit of Manitob a by virtue of their supplies. I would like to deal ext ensivel y with the pe di�1tric be ds issue, which is something that has beel'l-i:md I think it epitomizes part of the diffi culty with he•alth care re fo rm. I will go throu gh it, and I will kind of indicate how we got involv ed in this in a big way.

We got invol ved in th is in a big way, Ma dam Dep,uty Speaker, because we were phoned by parents, not one parent, not two parents , not three parents, not four parents, but maybe a do zen parents , maJ{be more. And we got phoned by doct ors who said, we have ta lked to the minister and we cannot ge,t a strai ght answer, an d we do not know what is happening in terms of ped iatric beds at St. Boni face, and we do not know what is happenin g in term!l of ped iatric surgery an d the co nso lidation of pe diatric surgery at Health Sciences Centre. I went out and met with some of those group!l.

I had nume rous meetings, and it was always the same. They had phone d the minister's off ice and heard one thing from the minster. The y had phoned the de puty minister's office and heard another thing from the de puty minister, and they had phoned then the head of heal th ref orm and had heard another thing, Ma dam Deputy Speake r. In other words, ·the plan was not clear. Ind eed the plan was, to say 'the least, chaotic, and it was not clear where they W1�re going. So I asked questions in the Ho use, and do you know what? We got different answers from lthe minister.

The minister was not clear, and he was very circumspect in his response because he was not giving out the information. Madam Deputy Speake r, it is unfortunate . We had a ward provid ing excellent care at St. Boniface Hospit al, and an initial report that said close mo st of it but maintain 15 beds for in-patient and five beiCfs for outpatient surgery, and the assumption was that this would co ntinue o n. But sometime between that annou ncement and early spring, all the be ds w1ne being closed , and do you know what?

When e>ur Lead er asked that in De cember, that question, 1he minister used statistics, but he used them wron�rly. He had used statistics based on a full-capac�ty hospital . He did not use statistics based on the actuals. But the minister manipulate d the statistics and mad e his politi c al arguments, got us to the pc�nt where the ped iatric ward close d. The jobs are lost and parents who have been taking their kids there for 10 , 15 and 20 years were told, for get it. Then, Mad am Deputy Speaker, we had a press co nference to try to alert it.

The minister used the response I had said on CKND, took it out of context, of co urse, but I expec t that from the minister, and tried to imply that we were fea rmongering. That does not matter. The point is that we suggested, keep the ward open for 18 mon ths. See what the needs were at the Health Science Centre. See if there was overflow like there was, as we were ad vised, three times in the last year. Keep the ward open. If after an 18- month period there was no need to maintain a pediatric ward in St. Boniface, then re visit the issue.

But no, the minister stood up in the House and said he had a final report that said otherwise, althoug h he would not release the final report. He would wave it in his hand, he would not release it, like so many oth er reports, so we are left with that. With regard to surgery . we had the de puty minister saying, yes, in-patient surgery will be mov ed to Health Sciences, but all other out- patient surgery will remain at the comm unity hospit als, in re cognition of the fact that the minister's ow n do cument says, Health Sciences Centre , $800 a da y; com munity hospita ls, $400-plus a day.

It is cheaper to do it at com munity hospital s. We will keep the day surgery for children at com munity hospitals in the community where they rec ognize them. That is what the dep uty minister said. But do you know what? That is not what the head of health reform said. The head of health reform said, it is all mov ing to Health Scien ces Centre , and then nob ody knew. And n ow we know , and the re hav e been let ters an d faxes and all kin ds of informat ion, we all know it is all going to Health Sciences Centre. It is all going, and that is contr ary to the governmen t's ow n plan.

Ma dam Deputy Speaker , that is co ntrary to the governm ent's ow n plan, but the y are all doi ng that anyway. We ra ised the fac t in this House that they are expand ing surgery in hos�tal rooms that are not even by modern stan dards-that do not even meet the minimum requirements of the minister's own de partment. That is no refle ction on the very good work unde rtaken by Health Sciences Centre and on the very good work underta ken in those operati ng rooms. Nonethe less, they are putting in 3,0 00 new procedures into crow ded rooms, but the minister

April 13 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 46 came out of the Ho use, I believe, and indicate d to the press that it was not an impo rtant issue. I think ot herwise. We are moving to a po int where they have now moved all the surgery-an d I think it is clear that all surgery is now down at Children's Ho spital-co ntrary to their ow n health action plan and with no analysis that has been presented publicly, not one anal ysis presented publicly, that says it is cheaper and pro per and mo re effi cient to do it in the one fac ility. So I think that the pe diatri cs issue must be revisited, not only the St.

Boni face de cision , but the whole question of the surgery with respect to the minister's health reform plan. No w today we have heard 14 1 layoff s at St. Boniface Ho spital. I ask the minister, is this part of the 38 0 layoff s that were announced in No vember as part of health restru cturing? [interjection] What was the answer, the memb er for Arthur (Mr. Do wney)? Could you tell me? I do not think anyone in this Cham ber-! went out in the hallway and I listene d atte nti vely to the minister as he was scrummed. Then I asked the med ia af ter, did you und er stan d what the an swer was?

No one understood what the answer was. I think that is sad. I think it is sad when 14 1 peop le lose their jobs , and we in this Cham ber cannot ask the minister whether this is part of the plan or whether it is in ad dition to the plan and exactly what that is all about. It is tragic that they lose their jobs , but I think it is tragic for this Assembly and fo r the de moc rati cally elec ted members of this Ho use when we cannot get a straight answer as to why this is happenin g and what is happening. An Honourable Member: It would hel p if you had asked a straight question .

You get so carried up in yo ur rhetori c that the question- Mr. Chomlak: The mem ber says that I get so carried up. I would hold my questions up against the mem ber's questions when he is opposition an y time, Mad am De puty Speaker. I think, notwithstan ding that com ment, that the question was very clear, and the answer was as imprec ise as po ssible. I think that is sad, because we do not know what is happening in terms of health care ref orm, and it is affe cting the entire health care co mmunity in the entire provin ce of Manitob a.

It is affe cting every bo dy in terms of what is happening, and we are getting the calls, and the minister's offi ce is giving them the runaround, and the minister's offi ce is not replying. I think it is unfortu nate in the extreme that the minister will not provid e prop er info rmation to members of this Ho use, never mind the public, after all , who put us here and, after all, whom we answer to. I think that the mood out there is quite co nducive to-it takes me back to one of my op ening co mments.

No w I understand why that nurse's aide had such an extreme reac tion when I suggeste d that I would put the question that she raised to the minister. No w, Mad am De puty Speaker, I would like to turn to a cou ple of other issues co ncerning health reform , and one of them is co ncern ing the governm ent's de cision in these times of restraint to spend $3.9 million on a co nsultant, prob abl y the lar gest co nsultant co ntrac t ever entered into and for cing St.

Boniface and Health Scienc es Centre , forc ing them to pay her ex penses and those of all her associates up to a maximum of $800, 000- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Wh en this matter is again before the Ho use , the honourab le mem ber for Kildonan (Mr. Chomia

k) will have 1 0 minutes remaining. The hour being 10 p.m., this Ho use is adjourned and stand s adjourned until 1 :30 p.m . tomorrow (We dnesd ay) .

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ORDERS OF THE DAY Budget Debate (Fou rth Day of Debate) Gilleshammer Friesen Penner Chomiak Tuesday, April 13, 1993 CONTENTS 1626 1628 1635 1641

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-40b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 40b.pdf
Language	en
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