Manitoba Hansard — 6 December 1982 (Sitting 3, 32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-3

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 3- 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 6 DECEMBER,1982. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKI':, David R: (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C�. Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Ger ry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Min nedosa Rhineland Giml i Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Ccncordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russ ell St. Norbert Assi niboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA· Monday, 6 December, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PAA YER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Peti tions ... Rea ding and Receiving Petitio ns ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Commi t tees ... Mini sterial Statements and Tabling of Reports .. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a Mini sterial Statement that I would like to introduce. It is being prepared at this moment; it should be here within about five or ten minutes. I would like permission of the House to present it at that time. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, since the Government is following this Session in the same course of action that it followed in the last, not being able to organize the affairs of Government properly, we wi ll agree to return to Mini sterial Statements. MR. SPEAKER: So agreed by the House. Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. R. PENNER introduced Bi ll No. 2, The Law Enforcement Review Act - La

loi sur les enquetes relatives a !'applic ation de la loi. (Recom mended by Her Honour the Lieu tenant-Governor). HON. B. URUSKI introduced Bill No. 3, The Farm Lands Ownership Act - La

loi sur la propriete agricole (Reco mm ende d by Her Honour the Lieu tenant Governor); and Bill No. 7,

An Act to amend The Dairy Act. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK introduced Bill No. 8,

An Act to amend The Corporations Act; and Bill No. 9,

An Act to amend The Partnership Act. HON. R. PENNER introduced Bill No. 11,

An Act to amend The Registry Act. HON. A. MACKLING introduced Bill No. 12 , The Water Rights Act -

Loi sur les droits d'utilisation de l'eau. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have a message to accompany the int roduction of that_ bi ll? HON. A. MACKLING: No. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Labour. 25 HON. M. DOLIN: I would ask leave to introduce the Ministerial Statement that I mentioned earlier. (Agreed) I am pleased to announce that the Governments of Canada and Manitoba today signed a Letter of Under standing which wi ll lead to joint federal-provincial funding of $24 mil lion to create several thousand addi tional jobs in Manitoba.

The details of this arrange ments are expected to be finalized within a week. This joint program. called The New Em ployment Expansion and Development Program, or NEED , wi ll provide a contribution towards wages as well as adminis trative and overhead costs. Projects may cover a wide range of activities and be located anywhere in the province. They must contribute to the social and economic betterment of the province and must involve the creation of additional jobs.

Both Governments have agreed that priority wi ll be given to those projects which are labour in ter:isive and sup portive of the two Governments' emp loyment strategies. These projects wi ll enhance the creation of ongoing emp loyment and wi ll position emplo yers, comm unities and participants to take advantage of this province's economic recovery. I am pleased to note that the federal-provincial pro jects funded under the NEED program are in addition to the provincial job creation ini tiatives being planned or already in progress.

These provincial init iatives include: The Department of Labour and Manpower's North ern Emp loyment Programs and the Manitoba Emp loy ment Action Program, which will provide $3.1 mil lion for the creation of some 1, 12 0 jobs; The Department of Northern Affairs, Northern Job Creation Programs, which wi ll provide $1. 9 mil lion for the creation of approximately 615 jobs; The Department of Urban Affairs.

City of Winnipeg Sewer and Watermain Renewal Program is projecting expen ditures of 2.5 mil lion for the creatiof! of up to 51 5 jobs; The Mani toba Housing and Renewal Corporation's activities inc lude a program for accelerated repair of rural public housing with a budget of $1 mil lion and · expecting to em ploy up to 600 people; the Critical Home Repair Program, with a $3 mil lion budget, is already emp loying 1, 000 contractors; the Homes in Manitoba Program, with a budget of 50 mil lion, is projected to emp loy 2,000 people from the end of August, 19 82 to the end of 19 83; The Department of Energy and Mines Retrofit Pro gram wi ll em ploy in this fiscal year a projected 200 people at a cost of $200,000; Tem porary job creation in the mining sector wi ll have resulted in emp loyment for more than 550 peo ple in short term jobs through the co-operation of the Departments of Energy and Mines, Labour and Man power, and the Federal Canada Emplo yment and Im migration Commission.

The Department of Government Services will spend approximately $3. 7 mil lion by accelerating more than 70 projects involving public capital works projects this winter. This wil l em ploy several hundred people in the hard-hit construction in dustry. I am also pleased to mention that our in itiatives in

Monday, 6 December, 1982 the area of youth and student emplo yment this past summer assisted in the creation of over 6,800 jobs. Simi lar ini ti atives are being planned for next sum mer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker. with the depressing, appal ling, discouraging job situation, which was made public in Manit oba last Friday, the Opposition wel comes any announcement that will create jobs for some of the 52,000 unemp loyed persons in Manitoba, particu larly at a time when the Manitoba rate has risen so much higher than the national rate and when Manitoba is leading the increase in unemployment statistics across this country. We wonder at the necessity of including in this Min isterial Statement a summa ry of what this Government has been doing and has announced over the past year on a number of occasions.

Fully three-quarters of this announcement has already been previously announced. What the Minister, I would have hoped would have said, Mr. Speaker, was that she was going to withdraw the pay roll tax so that tax, which is creating unemp loyment in Manit oba and which is reducing the wages of peop le working in Manitoba, would be withdrawn and that would create more additional empl oyme nt opportuni ties in Manitoba. I would have hoped, Mr. Speaker, that the Min ister would have announced a change in attitude towards investment and towards the private sector in Manit oba.

Ratherthan announcin g ManOil and a public life insu rance company, Mr. Speaker, some announce ments that would indic ate that Manit oba was open for busi ness. perhaps lik e Saskatchewan is under a Pro gressive Conservative Government, now private sec tor and private investment would be welcomed in Manitoba. We would not have the need to create make-work projects, Mr. Speaker. We would be creat ing permanent jobs in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, by leave I am advised by the Clerk that a message was required for Bill No. 12 and I so advise the House that Her Honour the Lie utenant-Governor has been advised of the con tents of this bill and recommends it to the House. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I di rect the attention of honourable mem bers to the gallery where we have 46 students of Grade II standing from the West Ki ldonan Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Bu tler and Mrs. Bai ley. This school is located in the constituenc y of the Honourable Mi nis ter of Cultu ral Affairs.

There are 52 students of Grades 8 and 9 st anding from Richer School under the direction of Mr. DeGagne and Mrs. Bekeris. This school is located in the consti tuency of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. I'd also li ke to note that Mr. Ed Whelan, a former MLA and Cabi net Minis terfrom Saskatchewan, is also present this afternoon. 26 On behalf of all of the mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Homes in Manitoba Program - housing starts MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My que s tion is for the Honourable Min ister responsi ble for Housing and I would lik e to begin by welcoming him to his new responsi bil it ies on the Treasury Bench. My qu estion, Sir, is how many housing starts have occurred in Manitoba under funding by the highly publ iciz ed Homes in Manit oba Program that was announced some three-and-a-half months ago? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Housi ng. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to thank the Member for Tuxedo for his congratulations.

To date, the housing starts that have been approved under the HIMP program in the indi vidual homeowner component represents about 12 0 units. We're projecting from that to the end of the year and we now have every assurance that there will be upwards of 600 units built under the program. In fact, I received word this morning that one builder alone has pre-sold 10 0 units under the program and expects to contribute 17 0 units to the program by year's end. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I know that the Min is ter continue s to be optimis tic because he continue s to reannounce thin gs that never material ize: but in view of the fact that interest rates have dropped dramati cally during the past year, can the Minis ter expla i n why the housing starts in Winn ipeg have dropped to only 402 for the fi rst ni ne months of this year as com pared to 1, 612 for the fi rst ni ne mon ths of last year despite the Government's so-called magnificent efforts in housing? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speaker, as everyone is aware, the housing starts have not only dropped in the pro vince, but have dropp ed across Canada. The fact is that in Manitoba in October the housing starts have increased 16 0 percent. We're at 200 for the month of October and that represents a signifi cant increase, 16 0 percent. When you compare that to what's hap pening in some other provinces, we're doing qu ite well. In addition, although the housing program was slow in getting going in some respects, the fact is that the housing starts will be there.

The fact is, if you talk to the Homebui lders Association who are doing the buildin g, that the units will be bui lt. The job s will be created in the housing ind ustry and, particularly, the Homebu ilde rs Association have said on many occa sions that this is a good program. It's an imagi native program and that has been said by everyone asso ciated with it. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, before the Min ister has his colleagues gather around him and serenade him with a rousing chorus of "How Great Thou Art," I think

Monday, 6 December, 1982 that I'd like to know how much mone y the Govern ment has comm itted for advertising and public ity thus far for the celebrated Homes in Manitoba Program and, in particular, what was the cost of the eig ht-page suppl ement in the November 20th issue of The Win nip eg Free Press covering all the MHRC housing programs? HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would li ke to say, Mr. Speaker, that this program has got under way with a minimum of development costs and advertising costs.

We expect that overall the imp le mentat ion costs are going to represent about 1. 4, 1. 5 percent of this program. I should say, specifically with respect to the supp lement. I would like and am proud to say that the cost to the provinc e on that supp lement represented $2,500.00. I will tell you that it cost that much because, lik e in all other aspects, this Govern ment has worked with the home builde rs to work together co-operatively to make sure that this pro gram is a success.

Twenty-five hundred dollars for an eig ht-page sup plement as an insert is an incredible bargain and it was also some thin g that has been comment ed on very favourably by everyone who read it. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I am sure we would all prefer housing starts to favourable com ments.

In view of the fact that there have been app roxima tely 12 0 housing starts, according to the Min ister, or applic a tions approved for 12 0 under the Government's highly publi cized Homes in Manit oba Program com pared to the projection of 650 by December 31s t. 19 82, and in view of the fact that total single fam ily housing starts in Manitoba are down 75 percent for the first nin e months of this year com pared to last year, will the Minis ter now admit that his Government's housing ini tia tives have been a total fai lure and a waste of taxpayers' dollars? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speaker, no, I won't admit that. I think that when the final tally is in and we have seen a 10 0 percent increase in the housing starts over the three months that the program has been operative, we'll be able to say that defin itively. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Min ister can inform the House and the citi zens of Manitoba why the conversion of rental units to condom iniums in Winnip eg for the fi rst ni ne months of 19 82 has increased 256 percent over the same period last year, from 1,2 36 to 3, 16 8. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I could not gi ve any defini tiv e reason for that.

I would indic ate that there is a dif ference between condom in iums that have actu ally been converted and those that have been regis tered as condom ini ums. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, we're talking actual conversions, 256 more conversions. That's what we are talkin g about and I am sure the Mi nis ter is not aware of it. Perhaps he doesn't think it's im portant, but I think it is signif icant to the rental housing sector. I would like the Min ister, Mr.

Speaker, to indic ate whether or not he can confirm that his Rent Regula- 27 tion Review staff are many, many months behind and are processing more than 10 ,000 rental unit appeals wai ting for decisions with respect to protests under the rent control legislation. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, the Rent Regulation Bu reau, as the honourable member will be aware, has announced that they antici pate to be able to get through the backlog of appl ications for increase as of the end of the year.

The Bu reau and the staff are working extremely hard to make sure that happens and I'm sure that everyone understands that the Rent Regulations Officers were not able to begin their task actually until October 1s t and to date have processed approxima tely through 3,000 units and are working qui te effectively. I antici pate that they will be done by then. MR. G. FILMON: As usual, Mr. Speaker, there has been very little planning going into the Government's programs, so nobody is on staff to antici pate the needs. · Mr.

Speaker, I am going to ask the Min ister this question because his Rent Regulation Review Office has been unable to clarify the problem on behalf of tenants at the Courts of St. James where, the Min ister will know of course, after many, many mon ths of review a decision was finally rendered approxima tely three months ago to -(I nterjection)- Yes, for the Min is ter of Natural Resources, there is indeed a question. Mr. Speaker, I want to be sure that the Min ister understands the problem , so I'll go over it carefully. The decision was rendered for an 11. 3 percent increase on that com plex of some 657 suites.

Because of an appeal by a few tenants in that particular comp lex, that decision has now been placed in limb o. Tenants at that complex are interested to know whether or not they ought to be pa ying at the present time the rent that was asked for by the landlord, the 11. 3 percent that was arrived at by the Rent Regulation Review Panel, or the 9 percent that is called for under the Act. The tenants have asked and they have not been able to get an answer from the Rent Regulation Review Bureau. I wonder what the Min ister has to say. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speaker, I would hesit ate to gi ve a defi nitiv e answer on that. My assump tion is that they would pay the 9 percent, but I will check and get an answer for the honourable memb er. Beef Income Assurance Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Min ister of Agriculture. Could the Mini ster of Agriculture confirm that he has written off some $400,000 under the old Beef Income Assurance Program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I can confirm that we are no longer pursuin g the collection of, from approx-

6 December, 1982 im ately 12 2 producers. monies that were purportedly owed as calculated by the former admin istration after they politically tink ered with the Beef Income Assu rance Plan. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, if I understood the Minis ter correctly, he said there were some 12 0 some producers who are not being asked to repay the funds. Under what authority, Mr. Speaker, is the Minis ter acting? Under what legal do cumentation does he have to back up that decision that was taken by he and his Cabi net? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Ar thur should know that these producers who have resisted in making the payments were also under legal advice. Mr. Speaker, there is an opinion as well that if those cases went to court that there may be the li kel ihood that we would have to recompense the $2 mil lion that were collected up until now. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, if I understand the Minister correctly, he's saying that there were some $2 mi llio n collected or approxi mately.

How many pro ducers would there be that had honoured the con tracts that were written during his prior term or his colleague's prior term in office? How ma•cy producers have paid back that $2 milli on? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, there were so many changes made to that program by the former admini s tration, Mr. Speaker, the honourable memb er should know that there were approx im ately 6,000 producers who joi ned the plan originally in 19 75.

In 19 80 there were further changes made to producers telling them that if they opted out of the plan, they would be for given some addition al payments that they might or might not have owed. That reduced the number of producers in the program to 200. In the intervening months, between 19 81 -82, some producers went bankrupt: there were other problems with the pro gram leaving a net balance of 12 2 on the program. The precise amount of how many producers lived up to the terms, Mr.

Speaker, only the Honourable Member for Arthur can answer that, because no mathemati cian can answer that kind of a qu estion with all the hocus-pokery that went on with that pro gram while they were in Government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the Mi nis ter is saying that only I can answer that questi on. Is the Minis ter then prepared to provide all the names of those con tract holders who, at the different stages, paid the funds back to the province and in fact li ved up to their commit ment? I would specu late, Mr.

Speaker, if he wants me to answer the qu estio n, seei ng as he has asked it of me, possibly there would be several hundreds of peop le that lived up to their commi tment. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Agriculture be pre pared to provide the names of those people who are not now going to be forced to pay the mone y back to the provinc e? Will he provide the names to the people of Manitoba and to this Asse mb ly? 28 HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, when that Order is tabled by the Mini ster of Fi nance, those names will be made public. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, The Min ister of Fi nance, as he is well aware, is somewhat reluctant to table any information so that we are able to capably debate in an objective way the affairs of the Province of Manitoba and gi ve them some direction which is necessary. Mr. Speaker, can the Minis ter of Agriculture assure us that document will be tabled with in the next 24 hours in this Assembly? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, no, I cannot assure him of that. The fact of the matter is the instrument is a fi nancial instrument that is to be brought in.

If the honourable memb er doesn't realize what the ins tru ment is, it's a financial instrument. It has to be passed by the Min ister of Fi nance. When that is done, all the names attached to it will be made public. Headingley Jail - study re conditions MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is to the Honourable Min ister of Corrections. I wonder if he can confirm, Mr. Speaker, that he has establi shed a secret Comm ission of Inquir y into con di tions at Headin gley Jail. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Com mu nity Services. HON. L.

EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the question from the honourable memb er who I know has a great interest in the correctional system in Manitoba. I can advise him that we're in the process of establishing - I wouldn't call it a task force or a broad investigation or anythin g li ke that - a study. When we have comp leted the detai ls, the parameters, etc ., the honourable member would be advised of that information. MR. l. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Mi nis ter for his information.

Can he confirm that this secret Comm ission of Inquir y into Headingley Jail is already in place and under way under the chairma nship of Professor Len Kaminski of the Department of Social Work of the Univ ersity of Winnip eg? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, we are hoping that we will get certain indi vidua ls who will help us on this study but we have not officially and formally estab lished the study yet. MR. L.

SHERMAN: Can the Min ister confirm that he established this inquir y as a result of correspo ndence that he has had with me during the past three months arising out of a very serious escape attemp t at Head ing ley Jail last August involv ing two very dangerous offenders, one Neil Baptiste and one Roy Hoffman, and the in credible and chaotic circumstances that came to light surrounding that escape attempt?

HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm that but I can advise the honourable mem ber that I spent a great deal of this sum mer visiting all of our correc tional institutions includin g Heading ley, including the Remand Centre at Winnip eg and that I've had a great deal of conversation with staff, senior and mi ddle management and rank and file staff. I've had many many hours and days of discussions with various peop le in the correctional system and it has brought us to the conclusion that we should have a compre hensive study. I appreciate getting a letter from the honourable memb er but I must admit, Mr.

Speaker, that was not the reason that prom pted us to do anything in the way of a study. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, one final supple men tary on this subject for today, Sir. Is the Min is ter deny ing that Professor Len Kaminski has been ordered to report to him on the situation at Headin gley Jail, internal, related to security, safety and adminis tration "as quickly as possibl e?" HON. l. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, the ind ividual the honourable memb er refers to is a ci tizen of Manitoba and I am in no position, as indeed nor would he be if he were in my position, to order an ind ividual citizen in Manitoba to do this, that or anything. So I'm not order ing any ind ividual, but as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, we have had dis cussions with an indi vid ual to engage in a study and tha t has not been final ized or formal ized. When it has, I'll be very pleased to gi ve the details to the honourable mem ber. McKenzie Seeds - hirings MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I di rect my question to the Min ister in charge of McKenzie Seeds and would ask him, in li ght of the Min is ter's in terfer ence in hi ring practice at the Brandon Work Activities Project and now appears to have had some in fluence with regard to the staffing at the Westman Media Co operative, I wonder if the Min ister could inform the House as to what pressu res or contact he has had with the McKenzie Seed Board to hire a friend of hi s, Mi ck Bu rke, who resigned at the Brandon Work Activity Centre. What pressure or contact has he had with the McKenzie Board to hire him at that establish ment? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Com muni ty Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure whether I follow the question. The question was very confused and I'm not sure what the honourable gentleman is referring to. I have prided myself over the years, Mr. Speaker, when I've had assoc iation with that com pany that the board and management of that company runs the company in the best interests of the company, that they are responsible for hiring and firing and it's not the responsibil ity of the Min ister.

That's the way it has been and that's the way it is today and any innuendo 29 or allegations made by my honourable friend are totally out of order. They're in nuendo and nothing more than a smear tactic, nothing more than smear tactics. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Riel for an Address to Her Honour the Lie utenant-Governor in answer to her Speech at the open ing of this Session, standing in the name of the Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. HON. S. LYON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise to take part, Sir, in what I have counted as being, I think, the 19 th Throne Speech Debate that I've had the pleasure of par tici pating in this House - 19 or 20 - because someti mes there have been two Throne Speeches in a year. I enjoy the honour and the privi lege, Sir, of being able to participate in this Throne Speech Debate in 19 82, leading us into the Session of 19 83. I, fi rst of all, Sir, wish to congratulate you on the eviden t full restoration of your good health after the problems which you suffered from last year and all of the House rejoice, Sir, in seeing you restored to full health.

Although it may not always appear to be the case, we on this side of the House are mi ndful of the di fficult pos ition to which you have been elected by the mem bers of the Cham ber and while from time to time the job of the Opp osition is to make the job of the Government di fficult, we are never openly trying to make your job difficult even though that may some time s escape your attention, Sir.

We would hope - and this is not by way of gratuitous advice, but rather by way of a contin uation of the rich tradition of our parliamentary syste m, that when dif fi cult decisions must be made by you, as they inde ed must from time to ti me, that you would tend to err, as I think your instinc t would lead you to, on the side of freedom of debate because Parliament, as many oth ers Speakers have put it, is a place in which the elected · representatives of the people talk; and when decisions are made by the Chair with respect to the different procedural arguments that arise from time to tim e, it seems to me over the years as I have observed this debate and other debates in this House that a Speaker from whatever side of the House who errs on the side of freedom of debate is being consistent with that rich parliamentary tradition of which we are all so proud.

Sir, I wish to congratulate as well the new appoint ments of Deputy Speaker and Chai rmen of Comm it tees. We wish them well as they undertake their subsi di ary responsibil ities under your guidance in the House, and we look forward to working with them during the contin uation of the Sess ion in 19 83. We congratulate as well the new Mini sters app ointed sin ce last we met.

The numbers are somewhat stag gering for a Government that said it was going to operate with a much smaller Cabi net. but we on a personal basis wish them good health, satisfaction in their jobs and a continuation of service to the public interest, which is why we are all here. Servic e to the

Monday, 6 December, 1982 narrow partisan interest which seems to motivate some of my honourable friends opposite is not good enough. Service to all of the pe ople of Manitoba, ser vic e to the public interest is why we are here. No particular creed or narrow partisan phi losophy such as that espoused by my honourable friends opposite is sufficient in itse lf to justify the origi nation and ini tia tion of public pol icy. What serves the public interest is what should in itia te the public policy in this province. Mr.

Speaker, I was somewhat concerned when I read in the Throne Speech the mention that two new departments of Government would be formed during the course of this Legi slative Session. I hope that doesn't mean that there will be two new Min isters in this already overburdened Government: that is over burdened in terms of executive numbers. Two new Min isters are not needed at the present time.

We all know, Sir, that while some ti mes an increase in qua ntity impr oves qual ity, I must say, and any fair observer must say, that looking at the resources across the way one would find it di fficult to think that any in crease in the qu antitative size of the Cabi net across the way would add much in terms of quality, gi ven the fact that most of the - what was it that was referred to by some of the newspapers critics at the time my honourable friends were elected? That great reservoir of talent - as we look across the way now, Mr.

Speaker. at these extinct volcanoes, at these dry wells, we wonder where that great reservoir of talent is that at one stage so benumbed some of the newspaper comment ators as they looked at the stable - if I may use that term not in a way meant to demean - when they looked at the stable that was brought to this arena by the Fi rst Min ister. -(I nterjection)- I have nothing agains t horses, Mr. Speaker, or stables. Mr. Speaker, I wish as well, not only in the tradi tional sense but si ncerely, to congratulate the Mover and the Seconder.

The honour that was done to them by the Fi rst Min is ter in selecting them to move and to second the Speech is a long treasured one in our system and I must say that thei r partisan approach aside, they acqui tted their jobs reasonably well - the Member for Riel, the Member for Thomp son. I felt rather sorry for them, Sir, because they were asked to make the best of what we all have come to understand was a very poor Speech. Someone was heard to say that it was a Speech that was characterized more by the presence of wind and rabbit tracks and that is a statement, Sir, to which I fully subscribe.

Sir, it had about as much sustenance to it for the unemplo yed, for those who are facing economic duress in this pro vince, it had about as much sustenance to it as that thin Di ckensian gruel that we have come to expect from the socialis t mem bers opposite when they di s pense - as I mentione d to the Fi rst Min ister the other day - that equal ity of mis ery for which they ideologi cally exist. Mr.

Speaker, in rising to partici pate in the Throne Speech, I remind you, Sir, and I remind the people of Manitoba that we on this side of the House offer to forgo a goodly portion of this debate in order that the Government of Manit oba mi ght have the opportunity to remedy some of its deficiencie s over the past year and migh t try to bring some order out of the chaos which they are apparently admin iste ring under the guise of government in this provinc e and to bring 1n a 30 ��--��- new Budget Speech at this time relative to the expen di tures for this year, 19 82 and 19 83, up to March 31 st of 19 83, because it is apparent to any fair observer that this Government has in many respects lost control over the public purse in this provi nce and is really unable, without the help of the Opposition, to gi ve to the people of Manit oba that kind of prudent mana ge ment of their public affairs, which the people of Manitoba thought they were going to be getting last November 17 th when they gave them the honour, albeit temporarily, to act as trustee for their publi c affairs in this province.

So I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that offer sti ll stands. If this Government can get its act together long enough to bring in a new Bu dget within the next week or two, we will forgo days of the Throne Speech Debate in order to permit the Government to bring it in. What is the purpose of the new Budget?

Well, the purpose was stated very concisely and clearly by my colleague, the Opp osition House Leader, our Fi nance critic, the Member for Tur tle Mountain, when he said on the 18 th of November, "The new Budget should repeal, fir st of all, the 1. 5 percent payroll tax intro duced in May of 19 82." That's No. 1, and I think most in this House - except a few on that side of the House who privately are supportive of that but publi cly have to tow the li ne - most people in Manitoba would cer tainly suppor t that.

No. 2: Provide the public, the citi zens of Manitoba, wi th a detai led updati ng of the province's revenue projections and borrowing requireme nts. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Fi nance critic on Friday brought to the attention of the House the fact that the Second Quar terly Report which traditionally is in the hands of all mem bers of the Legisla ture, and in the hands of the people of Manit oba more im portantly, well in advance of this date has so far not been produced by the Government opposite for reasons that I'm going to go into I suggest a little bit later on, reasons of manipu la tion of the debate in this House.

So we need a Budget state ment in order that they can gi ve us not only the Quarterly Statement, but that they can tell us how they are plannin g to handle the balance of the expe nditures and revenue sit uation for this fiscal year. No. 3: They should be providing the public with a detai led accounting of saving s achieved through their much public ized Repriorization Program. We didn't hear anythin g in the Throne Speech about reprioriza tion.

We didn' t hear about how this Government is respondin g to its fundamental mandate whi ch is to prudently attend to the fiscal affairs of the provi nce, not a word - worse than that, Mr. Speaker, a fai lure to bring in the Quarterly Report. Now we know what my honourable friends opposite think about accountabil ity: they don't li ke it. Mr. Speaker, whether they li ke it or not, we're going to make good legis lators out of them, and they're going to li ke it. If we have to rub their noses, so to speak, in Quarterly Reports, that's what we'll do. I tell you this , Mr.

Speaker, that if my honourable friends don't clean up their act, their manipu lative act, with respect to the timing of information that should be in the hands of the publ ic, then we, Sir, intend to introduce resolutions and/or statutory amendments

into this House which will cause this Government to say to the people of Manitoba, yes, we believe in accountabil ity or no, we will vote against measu res that are meant to put a time li mit on when we mus t fess up, when we mus t account to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, they're great people for talking about freedom of information. In the Throne Speech we heard the other day, this beleaguered bunch of extinct volcanoes across the way talked about a Freedom of Information Act. They were going to be in the forefront of giving information to the people of Manitoba. Well, Mr.

Speaker, we're beginni ng to find that the only information they want to gi ve to the people of Manitoba is very selective information, their own propaganda and things of that sort. But when the accounts of the people of Manitoba to which they are entitled by precedent and practice that we in itia ted in this Legislature, when those are brought before their executive group, thei r Cabi net group, the Cabi net group start to play games and say, "Aren't we cute. We're going to deny the Leader of the Opposition the right to hit us over the head with that Second Quarterly Report.

We'll ju st keep that Quar terly Report for a day or two more." Well, Mr. Speaker, the people of Manitoba can see through that kin d of cheap ruse, and that's what it is. It's a cheap ruse. I would think, Mr.

Speaker, that a Government of Manit oba that professes as this one does in all of its party li terature, which by impl ication I detect they may now want the public of Manit oba to pay for - and we'll get to that a later bit later on - I suspect that this Government which wants to talk about Freedom of Information and which wants to talk about all of the thi ngs that it would lik e to see done in the in terests of civil lib erty in Manitoba is really acting as a hypocritical bunch, because when they are faced with the oblig ation of presenting information to the people of Manit ba they refuse to gi ve that information to this House.

Mr. Speaker, the other reason we wanted a Budget was to present the Government's economic strategy for both the im medi ate future and the long term. I suggest to you, Sir, there was not a tittle of informa tion in the Throne Speech at all that would gi ve any farmer, that wou ld gi ve any min e worker - and there aren't too many min e workers in Manitoba who are working nowadays, Mr.

Speaker - that would gi ve any labouring person in Manitoba, that would gi ve any small busine ssman, that would give any person at all who is tryin g to make a living in this province, give them some idea as to the kind of leadership that this Government is prepared to offer. The Throne Speech was bereft of that kind of leadership at all. Totally bereft of it, Mr.

Speaker, because for the very sim ple reason that none of that kind of in itia tive, none of that kin d of drive, none of that kind of abi lity to put together mean ingful programs in consultation with the private sector exists among the honourable memb ers opposite. Propelled as they are by that doctrine of envy which seems to fire up their spi rits every morning and which seems to at the same time decrease at 2 o'clock every afternoon to the point when the House adjourns, they look lik e a bunch of tottering old men when they leave the House.

Propelled by that when they get up in the morning, and then at the end of the day after they have 31 been faced with havi ng to answer truthfully about their mandate, about the manner in which they are husbanding the affairs of the provi nce, then we see, Mr. Speaker, the kind of material out of which these people are made. They have no leadership ; the only aim they have is to grasp for power. They have no plan for the people of Manitoba. They haven't one mean ingful project in the Throne Speech that will create one long-term mean ingful job for the people of Manitoba.

Last year they were able ini ti ally to perpetuate the myst ic idea, which by that time had become a mystic idea, that they were st ill working on the three major development projects for Manitoba; namely, the Western Power Grid, the Potash Min e, the Alcan Smelter, and yes, Mr. Speaker, the multimi llion dollar addition to the Manfor comp lex at The Pas. When they mentio ned it last year, it was only half-heartedly because they knew by that ti me, although they did n't they weren't forthright enough to tell the House - they knew at that time that they had frittered them. all away, and in this Speech, Mr.

Speaker, no mention of them at all because they're gone. They're gone, Mr. Speaker, gone from the hope that Manitobans mi ght have had for some kind of econom ic leadership and some kind of abi lity to carry through on reasonable negotiations. Here, Mr.

Speaker, in the Hous e today sit s the di s credited Mi nis ter of Mi nes and Energy, sti ll somehow or other allowed to hold that post to the absol ute di sgus t of the peop le of Manit oba, and hi s equally di scredited Deputy Min ist er- that itinerant gypsy who came in here from Ed Broadbent's office, and back to Ed Broadbent's office he should be disp atched where he can do less harm. That's why, Mr. Speaker, we are sitting with a Government of incompetent people, when the most incom petent is sti ll allowed to sit in the Cabi net.

He should be consigne d to the back bench somewhere and let some of the others, some of this additional reservoir of talent move forward so that they could carry on negotiations in an upright manner on behalf of the people of Manitoba and not, Mr. Speaker, through their funny ideas about advertising by Al can and so on, drive private enterprise out of the province that would have created thousands of jobs for our people. Mr.

Speaker, I rise to speak then, full of the knowl edge that we are prepared to forego the balance of some debate on this Throne Speech in order to permit my honourable friends opposite to bring in some thing meaningful in terms of a new Budget: but on Friday last the Fi rst Min ister said no, we're not going to do that at all. We're not going to do that at all. The main consi deration, Mr. Speaker, of all of us in this House at the present tim e, I suggest, should be the 24,000 more people unempl oyed in this provinc e from the time that these incompe tent people first took office.

That should be the main consideration of this House today; not the kind of frittery nonsense that we heard in the Throne Speech about federal-provincial tax dollars for make work, part-time, half-baked jobs. Nobody is say ing that a band-aid isn't of some help, Mr. Speaker, from time to time, but when you're hemorrhaging to death a band-aid is not what you're looking for. You're looking for proper attention, proper leadership by the Gov ernment to provide that kind of a tourniq uet to provide a turnaround in the economy that my honourable

Monday, 6 December, 1982 friends professed to be able to do only about a year ago. So, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that as we engage in this Debate, the main consid eration of all of us should be what can we do to help create meaningful, new long term private sector jobs in this provi nce?

What kind of assurance, what kind of confidence can we gi ve to the busi ness com munit y here- sma ll, med ium and large to the farming commun ity, to the service com munity and so on, to ensure that those jobs will be created, that there will be a restoration of confidence rather than the di thering that we have seen from across the way - the handholding, the concerned looks and all of the talk about activist Government which is so much froth. Mr.

Speaker. the people of Manit oba can't exist much longer on social ist froth and that's what they've been gettin g during the past period of time from the First Min ister, from all that other odd collection of people that he has in his Cabi net, just froth - froth and excuses and a failure to perform - an ina bili ty to per form, Mr. Speaker, which is even worse, and we're going to be getting into that. We're going to be getting into that, Mr. Speaker. The NOP, Mr. Speaker, did talk in their Throne Speech about what?

They talked about that confer ence that they had at Portage la Prairie 10 which they inv ited qu ite a broad selection of the labour leader ship in Manitoba, their only constituency, and to which they invited good representation from the Cham bers of Com merce and so on. and from which they excluded, Mr. Speaker, the people who were elected to represent 44 percent of the publi c of Mani toba; namely, the mem bers of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, not one inv itation extended to the Mem bers of the Opp osition to be present at their so called summi t. Mr.

Speaker, I'm not trying to suggest that if we'd been there it would have been a two-headed summ it. I'm suggesting that if we had been there, at least there would have been one head working on the problems of the peop le of Manitoba instead of the rather half baked nostrums that we heard issu ing forth from the First Min ister, who feels that when he strikes a posture of concern that he is thereby doing some thing mean ingful for the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the unemplo yed can't eat a "posture of concern." The unem ployed are looking for real jobs in Manitoba.

When the Man itoba Cham bers of Com merce, Mr. Speaker, as I know they did at a recent meeting that they had with the Government of Manit oba, tell the Government of Manitoba that their tax policy in this province is crazy, that thei r tax policy with respect to the emp loyment tax or the payroll tax -whatever name you wish to apply to this rather invi dious pie ce of chicanery that they made part of the taxation regim e of the Provin ce of Manit oba - how carefully and how concerned do my honourable friends opposite listen to what the Manitoba Cham bers of Comm erce say to them? Mr.

Speaker, let me for the sake of em phasis read to my honourable friends opposite just what the Mani toba of Cham ber of Com merce said to them jus t a few weeks ago when they. representing small busi ness in Manitoba. medium busi ness, large busine ss, all of the thi ngs that my honourable friends across the way 32 pretend to li ke - although secretly they really don't li ke busi ness at all unless they run it - what did they say, what was the response, I would li ke to know, of the Min ister of Fi nance when the presentation to the Pre mi er of Manitoba and Cabi net representatives on behalf of the Manitoba Cham ber of Com merce on the 1. 5 percent Health and Education payroll tax was brought in?

I'm not going to read the whole document that was presented because we received it the other evening and I mus t say it was well thought out, it was a good critique of how this tax is a di saster, a dis aster for emp loyment in Manitoba at the present ti me. Mr. Speaker, on Page 6 of the fi rst subm ission, because there were two subm issions by the Manitoba Chamber, here is what they said to this Government across the way - this pseudo-Gov ernment across the way: "The 1. 5 percent payroll tax could not have been introduced at a worse time for busi ness in general.

For labour-intensive busi nesses the imp osition of this tax at this point in time is a devastating blo w. Overall economic activity as reflected in gross national pro duct figures, both federally and provi ncially, are static or dimini shin g, leaving many businesses in a fight for surviv al. The majority of busi nesses, particu larly those tied to the agricultural economy in Manitoba, have nowhere to turn to earn the extra income which will be requi red to pay this tax." And on and on it goes, Mr.

Speaker, driving in spi kes of common sense to the froth of NOP chicanery when they introduced this il l-conceived tax but, oh, they thought they were so smart when they brought it in last year. It was only, you know, Mr. Speaker, in the last week or two that they landed onto this to fi nance their overburdened expen ditures that they knew they were going to infl ict on the people of Manit oba. They thought they were so clever when they brought it in. Wasn't this going to be smart? They were going to get back some of the money that Ottawa was not going to gi ve them. Wer en't they clever? Mr.

Speaker, they weren't too clever by half; they're just not half clever enough. That's their problem. They are not half clever enough, Mr. Speaker, to under stand some of the basics of this federal democracy in which we live, namely, that you don't play games with the federal authority, notwithst anding the fact that they profess to be a government that believes in what? In co-operative federalism . Mr.

Speaker, before their term of office expi res or they're kic ked out of office, which will be with in three years, they are going to have to work with the Federal Government of a different political stripe other than the Li beral-Social ist one that we have in Ottawa right now. We are going to soon find out, Mr. Speaker, whether their idea of co operative federalism, toadying up to Mr. Trudeau and the lik es of that, really will extend to Mr. Clark and the Conservative Government that is going to take office. We are going to find out, Mr.

Speaker, just how well all of this posturing and all of this profession of co operative federalism, how deep it really goes with my honourable friends opposite. Mr. Speaker, what did the Manit oba Chamb ers of Commerce continue to say to this ill- advised Gov ernment when they gave them thei r brief on the 1. 5 percent payroll tax a few weeks ago? On Page 8 of the fi rst subm is sion, "In sum mary, the Provinc e of Manit oba," and I'm quoting, "i s faced with a comp letely new

Monday, 6 December, 1982 tax which is inequ itable, di scrimi natory, hidden in nature, punit ive in effect, ill-timed, complex, misun derstood, and very unwelcomed by those it will affect." Now, Mr. Speaker, that was not some wil d eyed group of right-wing people as they would be wont to categorize people on this side of the House. That was the Man itoba Ch ambers of Com merce, Mr. Speaker, with whom the Fi rst Min ister went into his so- called Summit Conference at Portage la Prai rie a week or two later.

I am very much interested to learn about the moder ate response that was gi ven to this state ment by the Mi nis ter of Fi nance. Was it a moderate response or did he fly to pie ces in the face of some hard reckoning by the Chambers of Comm erce who were telling him that he had im posed a stupid tax upon the people of Manitoba? How did he react? I would be interested to hear the Fi rst Min ister's version of how he reacted. I have heard the Manitoba Chambe rs' version of how the Min ister reacted. The Min is ter em barrassed him self and the mem bers of the Chamb er of Com merce by his reaction, Mr. Speaker.

He fumed and fussed and, yes, he prevaricated the way he does in this House regularly with respect to this tax and with respect to other matters. We'll be talkin g more about that later on too, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, because my honourable friends oppo sit e are probably on some kind of an interdicted read ing list. probably provided by the Minis ter of Culture or somebody of that intellectual sweep, perhaps I should read some other quotes from the Manitoba Cham bers of Com merce about the tax which we sug gest should be withdrawn and withdrawn right now. Mr.

Speaker, I qu ote from the second submi ssion that was made by the Manitoba Chambe rs of Comm erce on the Manitoba payroll tax to the Executive Branch of Government. I hope the mem bers of the backbench will lis ten because I know that you may not have received these documents in your reading box.

If you did, why, you know, com ing from the Chamber of Comm erce, you'd be more than lik ely incli ned to throw them in to the wastepaper box because, not withst andin g what your Leader postures about with respect to the Cham ber of Comme rce from time to time , you really don't care very much about them because you want to control all busi ness in Manit oba. That's where you come from. Mr. Speaker, before the terribly rattled Min ister of Mi nes and Energy wants to fuss around and make some response to that, let me say this, that we always listen very carefully to the Manit oba Federation of Labour.

We lis tened to them when they were right; we listened to them when they were outrageously wrong. We lis tened to them carefully and we answered them as fairly and as honestly as we could. I would li ke to know what kind of fair and honest answer the First Mini ster and his colleagues gave to the Chamb er when they talked in this way about the provincial pay roll tax. Let me read this quote for the benefit primarily of the mem bers of the backbench: "What the Manit oba busi ness communi ty needs from the Provincial Government is to be stimula ted with a feeling of con fidence.

What it has actually received is another kick in the face in the form of a new payroll tax. Because of past, present and projected deficit s, the Provi ncial Government felt it necessary to raise signif icant addi- 33 tional tax revenue. Why wasn't the alternative solution considered to be more imp ortant, that is, reduce government spe ndin g?

Busi nesses throughout this provinc e are fighting to maintain revenues, let alone increases, and have been forced to cut expenses back dramat ically in order to survive," and on and on it goes, driving the spikes of common sense into the coffin of stupid ity of the tax that was raised by these incomp etent people opposite at a time when they pre side d over the greatest growth in unemp loyment in the province sin ce the Depression. Here they are put tin g on a tax that increases unemployment.

Then they have a new Min ister who today announ ces that she has entered into, on behalf of the Pro vinc e of Manitoba, a new job creation program all funded with tax dollars, all adding to the $25 bill ion federal deficit, all adding to the $400, to the $500- milli on deficit here in Manitoba and pretendin g ther eby that some road to salvation is bei ng opened up for the unempl oyed in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, no one wants to deny the unem ployed people of Man_itoba the best shot that they can get in terms of job s, in terms of job opportunities, but those who would try to pretend that tax fi nanced make-work type job s such as were announced by the Mi nis ter today are the answer to the problem, those people are mi sleadin g the public of Manitoba. Those people are mi sleading people of ordinary common sense who know that salvation does not lie in that direction at all. Well, Mr.

Speaker, on and on it could go with respect to the Man itoba Chambers of Comm erce and what they have been saying to my honorable friends opposite. Mr. Speaker, it is not my in tention to go into any great detail in my remarks today. -(l nterjection) Somebody across the way, one of the louder mouths who didn 't make it into the Cabi net, who has an echo chamber on top of his mouth is sayi ng sit down. Well, Mr. Speaker, we haven't yet reached the new Jerusa lem of socialism yet. We don't have to sit down. In this Legislature at the behest of any left-winger and we never will, pray God.

If my honourable friend would feel more at home, Mr. Speaker, as I have a suspicion he would, in a rather more controlled democracy, why doesn't he go there? Why doesn't he go th ere and thereby do all of us a ·service in this country and in this Legislatur e? Mr. Speaker, my colleagues, the critics and the dep uty critics are going to be commenting in some considerable detail upon the errors of om ission and com mis sion of this Government and they are legion.

I want to say to you, Sir, as I've made reference at the beginning of my remarks to the fact that this was about the 19 th or 20th Throne Speech in which I have participated, only a few from the Opp osition side of the House. Let me say that I have never seen a broader or a bigger target than the one that this Government presents through its incompetence, its maladroitness, its inabili ty to carry out the fundamental function for which it was elected; namely, to gi ve good govern ment to the people of Mani toba. These people, Mr.

Speaker, gi ve bad government to the people of Manit oba day after day after day and we will document chapter, line and verse every day of this Session and it's going to be a long Session. Mr. Speaker, we're going to document chapter, line and verse the kind of incom petence that these people are visiting upon the

people of Manitoba at a time when our economy, when our provinc e is going through an extremely grueling period and that grueling period is being aide d and abetted by the ki nd of will ful incom petence that we see bei ng generated from across the way by people who. in large measure, are unfit to govern; unfit to govern by background, by philo sophy and so on. Mr. Speaker, one of the jobs of the Opp osition when you run across total incom petence, one of the jobs of the Opposition - and we did it well last Session; I guess we'll have to continue doing it this Session - is to tell them how to do their job.

If that is necessary, we'll do that as well because obviously there's a fail ure of performance and when the First Mi nis ter has the unbridled gall to retain in hi s Cabi net people such as the Min ister of Min es and Energy whose incom pe tence has been demonstrated across this provinc e from one end to the other - in deed right across West ern Canada - to retain him in his Cabi net after losing the power grid in the negli gent way that he did, that shows. Mr. Speaker. the level of incom petence that is permissible in this Government and for which the people of Manitoba will have to suffer for awhile. So, Mr.

Speaker, I could gi ve my honourable friend some advice open ly as to how he might start rehabili tating his Government, but I don't thirk he has the intestinal fortitude to do it, let alone to take the advice. One of the fi rst thin gs he's got to do, Mr. Speaker. is to sack fai lures because the people of Manitoba can't afford to wear fai lures around thei r neck li ke alba trosses for the full period of this one-term Government. Mr.

Speaker. let's take a general overview of what this Government has been doing to Manit oba for the last year, a Government that was elected on a great pr omise of a great future for Manit oba. I must have that document somewhere, Mr. Speaker. -(I nter jection)- "A Clear Choice for Manitobans," it says, "Poli cies of the Manitoba New Democratic Party." Did you notice, Mr.

Speaker. that in the excuse document that they turned out after they were qu ietly celeb rat ing one year of survival in Government - it certainly wasn't a celebration of anything else - that in that excuse document they tried to say. oh well, some of these things that were in here were policie s and others weren't policies. Quite frankly, Mr. Speaker. I got lost in all of this meandering of words that my honourable friends tried to say; well, we did n't qu ite prom ise that and maybe we did promis e that. What do they want?

Do they want their polic ies backed up by resolutions such as the ones that we read to them last Session that were debated at their annual conclave when the loo ney fringe takes over and talk about expropriating Im perial Oil and all of those nice thi ngs for which Manitobans have become rather accustomed? Is that what they mean by polic y, if they have a resolution that is debated and whether it's passed or not passed, is that policy?

When the looney fringe of their party come in, which is so far left that they're somewhere east of Moscow, when the looney fringe come in and talk about expropriating Im perial Oil and expropriat ing the min ing companie s in Manitoba, doesn't that do a lot, Mr.

Speaker. to encourage the establis hment and enhancement of jobs for Manitobans when the honourable mem bers permit that kind of radical non sense to be debated at their resolution and then have 34 to run around the country, as the Mi nis ter of Mi nes and Energy did unsuccessfully, trying to say, really, don't pay any attention to that stuff because that's not what we in government bel ieve, that's just what we have to put up with com ing from the corner that we do in the political spectrum. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Governments of Saskatche wan and Alberta know what they have to put up with from the Mi nis ter of Min es and Energy and they've long si nce written him off; they've long si nce written him off whether it's on energy, oil, gas or anything else. That's why he's no longer fit to speak for the people of Manitoba on those topics which are of cru cial im portance to our economy and to the future of our province. So, Mr. Speaker, what about the statements that were contained in here and what about the perfor mance in the last year?

The fi rst expression of policy and promise that always catches the ear of every Man itoban, I'm sure, is, and I quote and here is the picture of the Fi rst Minis ter with his sig nature underneath it. Isn't he looking deli ghtfully stern and promising and concerned about the people of Manit oba?

Here's what he said at that time: "We can turn around the harsh economic ci rcumstances of the past four years." Well I know 24,000 people who would love to have the harsh economic circumstances of just a year ago when they had job s; but he was promising that he could turn around, he and his little socialis t floti lla, could turn around the harsh economic circumstances in Manitoba. What kind of a mi sleading statement was that, Mr. Speaker? Turn around indeed; turn around and go backwards, yes, because that's what he's done. Mr.

Speaker. this document will long li ve in the pol itical annals of this provinc e as being one of the most mi sleading electoral documents ever put into the hands of free ci tizens in Western Canada. I just wonder how proud my honourable friends opposite can be of this document. What do they say when they go to Thom pson now where there's no min ers work ing in Thom pson today? What would they say, Mr. Speaker, if one of the mi ners said to them, what about this promise of yours that you can turn around the harsh economic circumstances of the past four years?

There were 2,2 00 people emp loyed up there, and more over the last four years, Mr. Speaker. what kind of a turnaround have they been able to achieve on behalf of the mi ners of Thompson? On and on we could go - at one stage, Mr. Speaker, 5,0 00 min ing empl oyees unemplo yed. I say to my honourable friends, as I said last Ses sion, nobody can blame them, no one with a reasona ble min d can blame them for the internatio nal price of metals. God knows they can't look after the thi ngs they have charge of here. So thank heaven they're not looking afterthe international pric e of metals. But, Mr.

Speaker, what happens is this. They pretended to the peop le of Manitoba that they could somehow or other prevent min es from laying off people when the inter national price of metals went down. It was through that deception. through that kind of will ful mi sleading of the people of Manitoba that they sort of stretched themselves into office. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have a little message for them - this also comes from being in political li fe in this pro-

vin ce si nce 19 58 - that you can't mis lead the people of this provi nce, you can't lie, and you can't otherwise deceive them and expect either short-term, medium term, or long-term pol itical success. That's what they're living under today, Mr. Speaker.

They're living under the presence, in the hands of many many peo ple - as a matter of fact I would lik e to see the Conser vative Party turn out many cop ies of this and send it throughout Manitoba, make sure it gets full di stribu tion among the people of Manitoba, so that this tissue of deceit can be in every household in Manitoba so that they can then judge, Mr. Speaker, how this bunch of people keep their promis es to the people of Manitoba. Well, Mr. Speaker. we can turn around, said they, the harsh economic circums tances of the last four years.

Those words are going to be engraved in stone on whatever soci alist icon remains undisturbed in this provin ce for generations to come. Twenty-four thou sand more people unemplo yed; a fumbl ing away of the Western Power Grid through the incomp etence of the Minis ter and his Dep uty Mi nis ter primarily; the fumblin g away of thousands of jobs in Manit oba.

This is the record of the last year, not turning around the harsh econom ic ci rcumstances; losses of thousands of jobs in our provin ce; a deficit that is moving toward doubling, moving toward doubling from the one that was reported for the last fiscal year; a Civil Service that is growing by leaps and bounds. There were 500 new jobs provided in last year's Estim ates and God knows how many extra contract people and so on this Government has been providing for and how many relatives, friends, politi cal hangers-on and so on are now on the dole of the publi c payroll in Manitoba.

God knows how many, but we're going to find out, Mr. Speaker. and I hope we can get honest answers. We're going to find out. That's why the Order Paper at the beginning of this Session has a large number of Orders for Return ques tion s. I remind, Mr. Speaker, the House Leader that a number of the qu estions that were put in the last Session have sti ll not been answered, and we need that information. We want accountabil ity from these people, because they're goi ng to gi ve accountabi lity to the people of Manitoba whether they want to or not.

We put them on notice right now that accountable they will be, or this House will sit here for a long long time until we teach them what their job is, and that is, to gi ve prudent government to the people of Manitoba. Well, Mr. Speaker. parties elected to government, as I've said before, on the basis of mi sleading statements are doomed both in the short term and the long term, but a party, Mr.

Speaker, whose Leader ap par ently - according to a recent news report - draws some titil la tion from the fact that this party in the ordinary course of events is going to having a leadership convention within a period of time, who draws some strength from that kind of an external fact, who draws some pseudo courage and strength from that fact that we're going to be having a leadership convention. That kind of leadership , Mr.

Speaker, betrays not only the wea kness and the spine lessness of the Leader, but also the hopeless kind of an outlook that kin d of leadership can offer not only to the party, but to the province - to say nothing of the thousands of unemp loyed people in our provinc e at the present time. No, Mr. Speaker, 35 postures of concern, hand-holdin g and so on are no substitute for real government leadership and action at this ti me. This same Leader, Mr. Speaker, the Fi rst Min ister, made a speech in Vancouver recently. He was out there telling Mr.

Barrett and the assembled socialis ts of British Columbia how to win an election. Well, Mr. Speaker, it was very interesting to read what he had to say, and giv en of course as we all must. that there could be some change from what he actually said to what appeared in the paper, because we're all subject to having thin gs appear in the paper that don't come out exactly the way they were said and so on. I read, Mr. Speaker, to the Fi rst Min ister from a Canadian Press story that appeared Monday, Novemb er 29, 19 82, in the Winn ip eg Free Press.

The quo te, in the final paragraph, after he was giving all of this great free advice to the assemb led socialis ts out there about how they could beat Bill Bennett and the Social Credit, he said he was not prepared to predic t the outcome of an election in B.C.; however, he noted that in Manitoba his party demons trated "that if a party is organized effectiv ely, develops the proper issues and inv olves people in a sign ific ant way that elections can be won." Mr. Speaker, I think I'll send a copy of "A Cl ear Choic e for Manitobans" out to Mr.

Barrett and to his followers and say that in the course of making these remarks to you and your supp orters, to the press in British Columbia , he sort of overlooked telli ng you about the deceitful message that he had to gi ve which caused him to win the election more than anything else, the misi nformation that he had to peddle ar ound Manitoba as truth in order that he could scramble into office. That, Mr. Speaker, is the mi ssi ng part of the lecture that the Fi rst Min ister was giving to his fellow socialis ts out in Br itish Columbia. I think that as a service to Mr.

Barrett, we'll send him a copy of this and say, Mr. Pawley overlooked sendin g this to you. We would li ke you to read it. We would lik e you to be the judge as to whether or not a party which promises that we can turn around the harsh econom ic circumstances of the past four years, a year after the fact, can hold its head high or presume to lecture anybody anywhere. Mr.

Speaker, politi cal parties from time to time all have di verged from electoral platforms that they have made, all have some time s changed them, but all, by and large, try to be accountable for them and say, well, you know, if we can't do such-and-such this year, we've certainly got it on the agenda for next year in terms of this program or that program. I want to ask the Fi rst Min ister whether, when he was giving this gr atuitous advice to the social ists of British Colum bia, did he tell them that he was going to order, as he did in this document, the imme dia te start up of construction on Lime stone?

Is he sti ll holding that out, Mr. Speaker, to the people of Manitoba? Because that's what he promised the people of North ern Manitoba, and I expect that fair-min ded citizens, whether they're of the Federation of Labour, of the Chamb er of Commerce, of the Conservative Party and so on, are ask ing the question in Northern Manitoba of unemplo yed mi ners, of unemplo yed workers of var ious so rts in the various trades that are up there, of people who don't have jobs in the shopping centre

6 December, 1982 who used to have jobs, of Indi an people who are look ing for salvation. Our Native cit izens were promised salvation by the soci alis ts opposite. I wonder if they aren't now beginning to ask the question of these people opposite, Mr. Speaker - what about these jobs that you offered? What about this Lime stone that you were going to build im media tely? - because that's what you promised in here. Then you let your Min ister of Energy and Min es and his incom petent Deputy fumble the ball. Because that could have been under way right now, Mr.

Speaker, if this Government hadn't fumbled its way out of one of the best deals that the provinc e could have had. On in that connection, Mr. Speaker, I want the Min ister of Min es, whil e he's sti ll in that office, parti cularly to lis ten, because we've got an Order for Return on the Order Paper and it deals wi th the production of posi tion papers that this Government - this fumblin g Government - put before its sis ter Governments in Saskatchewan and Alberta in July. We want to see the document of the final position of the Government of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the Grid.

We want to find out jus t how fundamen tally different this great negotiati ng done by the Mi nis ter of Min es and Energy was from that which had been negotiated by its predecessor Government. We want to find that out. Also, Mr. Speaker, we've got an Order for Return, an Address for Papers, that we want fil led by this Gov ernment and none of the mani pulating about timin g or anything. We just want them to come forward: these are public documents.

Ap parently the Minis ter of Min es and Energy as he was getting a bit more desperate - after he was telling the House thin gs were still going well but he was getting desperate privately, because he knew that thi ngs had bottomed out and were lost - commissi oned a separate study with respect to the Alcan devel opment, Mr. Speaker, a special study with respect to Alcan.

In the cou rse of that study we are told by the press that the special study told this Min ister and his incom petent colleagues that their big hang-up about Hydro ownership and about Al can ownership of a part of the Li mestone Plant was "a red herring." So we want to see that document, Mr.

Speaker, in order that we can begin to judge even more acutely the credibil ity, the competence of this Government that owes so much to the people of Northern Manitoba because it promised so much - the im med iate startup of Li mesto ne - and yet through its own thick headedness, through its own insensitivity, through its own inabili ty to understand what a negotia ted deal is between Governments, was able to fritter away some of the greatest opportuni ties that this province had in this century. That, Mr. Speaker, largely in the hands of a man who still sits on the front bench of this Govern ment.

How long will he continue to sit there as a testament to the incom petence of these people? Well, Mr. Speaker. one year later, what do we find? Instead of turning around the economy as promis ed so solemnly and so sternly by the Fi rst Min ister, what was the headlin e in the Free Press last Friday? "Help ing The Hardest Hit Is All We Can Do." That was the di rect qu ote from the First Min ister last Friday from his press conference, which very few apparently can understand, when he was talking about how many 36 jobs he and hi s Government were going to create with tax dollars.

"Helping The Hardest Hit Is All We Can Do." Mr. Speaker, what a comedown! What a come down in a year, from "We can turn around the harsh economic circumstances of the past four years" - that's Novem ber, 19 81. December 3rd 19 82, "Helping The Hardest Hi t Is All We Can Do." Well, Mr. Speaker, if that doesn't write volume s about the credibil ity of this Government, then I don't know what does, "Help ing the hardest hit." They didn't promis e the people of Manitoba there were going to be 24,000 more unemp loyed, did they?

They didn 't promise the people of Manitoba in this document that they were going to put on an emp loy ment tax which would act as a keen deterrent to employing more people. They did n't tell them that, did they, Mr. Speaker? They di dn't tell the people of Manit oba that they were going to move toward dou blin g - and we don't know because we haven't the document because they're hiding it - in the Second Quarterly Report they're moving toward doubling last year's deficit. They didn't tell them that, did they?

They didn't tell the people of Manit oba that contrary to what we did in our fi rst year in office, which was a 3 percent increase in expend itures, that they were going to increase expenditures out of the publi c purse by 16 to 20 percent. We don't know the fig ure, Mr. Speaker, because they won't gi ve it to us, and this is the Government that talks about freedom of informa tion. We don't know: we're going to find out, but we don't know now. So, Mr.

Speaker, when we have a Government that uses this kin d of chicanery to oil its way into office, then we have to call the shots as we see them and as tens of thousands of Manitobans are beginni ng to see them now - chicanery, deception, mi sleading of the people of Manit oba. Reduced to saying, we're going to help the hardest hit and that's all we can do. So, Mr. Speaker, in the Second Quarterly Statement being witheld by this Government should have been in our hands last week, week before last, or whenever.

I'm not saying it's going to tell us the whole story, it's only an interim statement, it's an unaudited statement. It'll gi ve us some direction as to where this Govern ment is tak ing us. But in the absence, Mr. Speaker, of a Budget, it's that kin d of a statement that we all need to know, the qual ity of the husbandry - if I may mi sus e that word - that these people are giving to the people of Manitoba. Well, I' ve seen a lot of things happen in this Legisla ture si nce 19 58, off and on, Mr. Speaker.

I've never seen such a crude or crass and deliberate attempt to man ipula te debate, however, as I saw on Friday last when this First Minis ter and this Government sat pat and allowed the Minis ter of Fi nance to pull this kin d of a shady trick on this Legis la ture. I've never seen any thin g that would qui te match that in terms of open attempts at manip ulation. Mr. Speaker, keeping the bad news, or whatever the news may be, until after the Leader of the Opp osition speaks, as I've said before that's a ruse that isn' t going to work and it's going to lash back at them. It raises questions unfortunately, Mr.

Speaker, as to how that statement is being prepared. If they're so concerned about the timing of the statement, my God what kind of concern are they putting into its content? I, for one.

6 December, 1982 Mr. Speaker, am not one who would ever suggest that the permanent career Civil Service of this Govern ment is anything but the best or anything but the most honest; they are. I fervently hope that it is the profes sional career permanent civi l servants of this Govern ment who are preparing that statement, not some of the inti nerant left-wingers that they bring in and hire at big salaries for the short term while they are in office, not those people, but the permanent career civil servants who have a dedication to this province, not a dedication just to social ism. So, Mr.

Speaker, I trust that this Statement is being left in the hands of the professional career civil ser vants to turn out. As I said before, Mr. Speaker, we deem there to be a need for a resolution or for a statute to be brought forward settling once and for all and ma king the Government honest with respect to when it files such reports, then we'll bring it forward. We will ask this Government to vote agai nst it if they want to perpetuate the kin d of manipu lation that we've all been a party to for the last 72 hours in this House. Mr.

Speaker, when I talk about manipu lation, I can't help but rememb er the response gi ven by the Fi rst Minis ter of this province when I asked him if the Presi dent of Manitoba Hydro could be called before the Public Utilit ies Commit tee of the Legislature, if that Comm ittee were called into Session now whil e this House is meeting to dis cuss the Throne Speech. There is nothing unusual about that, Mr. Speaker. It could be called into Sess ion now, the Commit tee, on any morning and Mr.

Blachford, who is sti ll the Presi dent of Manitoba Hydro, could be asked to gi ve his summa ry of his responsibil it ies over the past three years. His contract has not been renewed for reasons that we have not been told, other than the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro telling the press when they asked the question very simpl y that they were conducting yel low journalism. That was the response of the present Chai rman of Manit oba Hydro, the noted former Memb er for St. Johns, their politi cal friend, whom they appoint ed to that im portant position. So, Mr.

Speaker, why would the Fi rst Mi nis ter deny this Legislature the opportunity to hear from Mr. Blachford why he is leaving Hydro, what he sees as the future responsi bil ity of Manitoba Hydro and so on? Is that an unfair thing? No, not at all. Instead, we were treated to some rhetorical device which was about a Grade 11 level, from the First Min ister saying, "Oh, you don't have any faith in the new President." Well, that's a lot of nonsense. Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend, I don't know what level of int elligence he speaks to at his party gatherings, but I want to tell him that he has to turn up the gauge a bit when he comes into this House. If he can get away with that kind of nonsense before some of his party meeti ngs, I want him to understand clearly that there is a sligh tly higher level of performance required, fi rst of all, by any self-respecting Fi rst Mi nis ter and, secondly, by any leader of a party when he comes to answer legitima te questions in this House.

Why, I say today, is the Publi c Util itie s Com mit tee not being called now in order to hear Mr. Blachford? What's wrong with that? Anything wrong with that at all? No, not a thing, and from a Government that says, no, we won't do it, we'll call it at the regular tim e. So then I said, "Well, if you call it at the regular time, 37 which is second best, Mr. Blachford's going to be out of the province, maybe even out of the country, who knows, will you supp ort a request by the Com mit tee to have Mr. Blachford subp oenaed to appear before the Com mit tee?

"No," said the First Min ister, he wouldn't do that, no, and he's the Leader of a Government, so-cal led, that says they believe in freedom of infor mati on, Mr. Speaker. So, what do we have to do now? Do we have to introduce a resolution to ask that the present Presi dent, the Chi ef Executive Officer, of our biggest Crown corporation be called before the Comm ittee in order to gi ve the evidence that anyone would expect he should gi ve? What's happen ing, Mr. Speaker, in this provi nce, after only one year, with respect to accountabilit y? I don't know what's happened across the way.

One would have to be deeply cynical to think that my honourable friends are in such deep trouble that they don't even betray to their own memb ers why Mr. Bla chford is leaving. The Chairman of Hydro has to come out and use language such as "yellow journal ism" when he's asked a very simple questi on by the press. Who do these people think they are? Mr. Speaker, these people are accountable to the citizens of Manitoba.

We haven't yet reached that great social ist utopia where they can tell the public, in effect as they are doing on the Quarterly Report and on the calling of the Presid ent of Manitoba Hydro, to go to hell. That's what they are doing. I say, Mr. Speaker, from the depths of my being that we have not reached that stage after jus t one year's relapse into socialism in Manitoba. If they think we have, they have another very strong think coming. Mr. Speaker, let them be forthright, let them be honest, let them not practise deception and misle ad ing the people of Manitoba any more as they did in this document.

Let them call the Public Util ities Comm it tee. What have they got to lose? Have Mr. Blachford appear before the Comm ittee. He's sti ll on staff as the President. What's wrong with that? The Comm ittee can then adjo urn and be recalled again in 19 83 in the ordina ry course and the mem bers of the Legisla ture will feel that they've had the opportunity properly to ask Mr. Blachford about any questions they have con cerning his period of time as Chief Executive Officer · Anything untoward about that? Anythin g that a nor mal government would find bad about that?

No, but this Government finds some thing bad about it, Mr. Speaker. What are they hidin g? What are they trying to hi de? Are they afraid Mr. Blachford mi ght answer the questions about the agreement that was finally offered in July of 19 82 to Saskatchewan and Alberta being practically the same as the agreement we had negotiated successfully over three years? Are they afraid he might let that truth out of the box? I wonder, because there seems to be a great deal of sensitivit y about having Mr. Blachford appear.

We read in the paper the other day, "Wi lson Parasi uk's Concern For Accuracy." We all read that, didn' t we, Mr. Speaker, yes. Well, Mr. Speaker, that appeared in the Free Press within the last three days and so on. It gi ves us a very ni ce ind ication of the degree of credi bil ity that can be attached to the person in question. So he doesn't even have to wait, Mr. Speaker; if he considers that his credibil ity is under some form of attack, he doesn't even have to wait for the Order for

Return. Why doesn't he table in the House tomo rrow the final negotiating document that the Province of Manitoba offered to the Governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan? Why doesn't he table it tomorrow? Then there won't be any que stion about whether Mr. Cleverley or the Free Press was tak ing unfair advan tage of the current Min ister of Mi nes and Ene rgy. There wouldn't be any question about that at all. Why doesn't he do that, Mr. Speaker? Is that an unusual thing to ask of a Minis ter? I think not. Well, that leads me to credibil ity. We started with the election promis es and I haven't, Mr.

Speaker, begun to go through all of the election promis es. I only dealt with Page 1 where they were going to turn around the economy. I mentione d in pass ing they promis ed to start Li mestone imme dia tely. Oh, and then there was going to be the im med iate Em ergency Interest Rate Assistance Program that got under way - what? - two months ago or so. Then there were going to be, oh, energy development. im mediate orderly development of our hydro-electric resources. Yes, we've touched on that. They weren't going to giv e Alcan any share of the abil ity to pay for the up-front capital cost of Li mes tone.

That was pretty clear in here and that drove Alcan out of the provinc e pretty fast. We all know about that. Mr. Speaker. We know about agriculture and farms, fill the thi ngs they were going to do for the farm communi ty. Did you notic e, Mr. Speaker. how precious li ttle there was about farming or agriculture in the Throne Speech that was read by Her Honour the other day? Very little at all. These people don't understand agriculture in Manitoba. They understand manip ulation though, Mr.

Speaker, because ti1e Fi rst Mi nis ter carries around, I'm told, in his vest pocket the latest copy of the Conference Board antici patory results for the current fiscal year. I don't know if he keeps it in plain brown wrapping paper or what, Mr. Speaker, whether from time to time he flashes it at people or what; but he's trying to tell the people of Man itoba, aren't we lucky that we're less worse off than anybody else? And what does he call as evidence in corroboration of that rather dubious statement? He calls as evidenc e a specu lative kind of a projection report by the Conference Board of Can ada. Mr.

Speaker, I think the Conference Board, the Royal Bank and the other fina ncial houses ar.d the Economic Council of Canada. all of these people, who from time to time make projections about economic performance of a province. engage in a great deal of interesting spe culation and someti mes rare fun. We found over the years that if you put them all together into a hopper and did an average of them, you might come out somewhere near what the actual perfor mance was going to be. But my honourable friend, the Fi rst Min ister, Mr.

Speaker, seems to have tied hi mself, lashed hi mself- if I may use the term - to the mast in saying this is it; this is the word from on high. I don't know how high social ists pray. Someti mes it doesn't go very hi gh, but it's high enough in any case forth is breed across the way. This is the word from on high; we're not doing so badly, look at the other provinces. In that same report as I am informed, Mr. Speaker, and as I've seen the document, there is a projection for next year as well.

I understand that next year's projec- 38 tion shows that Manitoba is going to be fifth in per formance, and I haven't heard the First Mi nis ter say anything about that. I don't know if he's bothered turning over the page. He was obviously so titil lated by the fi rst page, he didn't want to break the spel l and turn over the second page, but that's what the second page of the Conference Board report seems to say. Mr. Speaker. I, for one, am willi ng to treat those as good-measu red guesses. That's about all they are.

I don't think it adds any hope to the unemp loyed to be told that the Provi nce of Manitoba is doing betterthan most other provinc es in Canada when we've got 24, 000 more people unem ployed in our province today, but if my honourable friend, the Fi rst Min ister, wants to derive some stroking satisfact ion from that, let him go; let him have it.

But I really wish that he wouldn't clutter up the air waves of Manitoba '.\ ith that kind of twaddle and nonsense when really the people of Manitoba want to know, never mind the projections, what are you doing about starting Li mestone, getting real and meaningful jobs going? What are you doing about recouping your mi shandlin g and fumblin g of Alcan? What are you going to do about getting it going again in Manitoba? What are you doing about meaningful negotiations with IMC? What are you doing about that?

How are you progressing with the negotiations to add to the plant at Manfor when it's economically viable to do so? How are those negotia tions proceeding or are you too preoccupied with laying off everybody at Manfor, which is the job now left delig htfully to the Mi nis ter of Min es and Energy and he deserves it, to lay off the pe ople at Manfor when he was one of the foremost who told them that he and his colleagues would turn the economy around? Is he having any heart-to-heart meeti ngs at Maniar these days? Does he dare to go up to Manfor now?

Does he dare go into Manf or and say, here's what's happeni ng; here's what we promised. We promis ed we were going to turn around the economy, but I guess we can't keep our promise. Is he saying that to the people of Manfor? I rather doubt it, gi ven his record of credibili ty in and out of this House. Well, Mr.

Speaker, starting with the election prom ises, starting with the fai lure of the mega projects, starting with some thin g that was small and in which they di dn't have to prevaricate, starting with state ments by the Minis ter of Fi nance and the Attorney General last year about whether the Federal Govern me nt- a very simple question -c onstit utionally had to pay the emp loyment tax in Manitoba, do you remem ber that series of qu estions that was put? And do you rememb er the bluster and the storm and the sheer prevarication, the mi sleading and the deceit we got in terms of answers, Mr. Speaker?

Because in the event and I'm sorry that the Min ister isn't here today - the Min ister has forgotten, we haven't. We haven't forgot ten, Mr. Speaker, and I just want to refresh the memo ries of my honourable friends opposite about the kin d of concern that they gi ve to answers that they gi ve in this House as contrasted agains t subseq uent facts as they come out. Mr. Speaker, here was a question on May 25th. I believe it is, in Hansard and I'm reading from a photo graphed copy of it, qu oting myself. Here's the qu ote. Mr.

Speaker: "Is the Min is ter of Fi nance telling this House that before emb arking upon this new form of

taxat ion in Manitoba, he did not secure a written legal opin ion as to the constitutional ity of the tax, is that what he is trying to tell the House?" Then the Min ister of Fi nance responded, Mr. Speaker. He started with the words: "The Leader of the Opp osition is again mumb li ng from his seat after he has asked his ques tion for the fourth tim e." I put that in so my honourable friends will know. I don't want to read all of this clap trap and nonsense into Hans ard agai n, but I want, Mr. Speaker, to read in these words.

Here's what the Min ister of Fi nance, this icon of credibil ity, said to the House last year, this social ist who can be trusted so supremely by the people of Manitoba: "Emp loyers in the provi nce are paying their fai r share. The Federal Government has already ind icated that it is prepared to pay it. They are not prepared to go to court to fight us on it, so I believe that the que stion is thoroughly hypothetical." Now that's what the Min ister of Fina nce was telling us on the 25th of May last year. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let's turn to the Free Press of Saturday, October 30, 19 82, and what does the story by Mi chael Doyle out of Ottawa have to say about whether the Federal Government had been asked to pay? Well, Ottawa, it's datelin ed, "The Federal Government is not paying Manitoba's 1. 5 percent pay roll tax because Manit oba has not made a request, sen ior officials in the Fi nance Department said yes terday. The 1. 5 percent payroll tax introduced with the provi ncial Budget appl ies to all emp loyers and was to have raised 70 mi llion this year from the federal pay roll in Manitoba and 110 milli on next year.

Former Fi nance Mini ster Allan MacEachen said earlier this year that the Federal Government has always taken the vie w that it is not liable to pay the the provincial taxes. Officials said, if Manit oba does get around to ask ing for the cash. action here would only follow a Cabi net decision. The Manitoba request would have to be recomm ended to Cabi net by Fi nance Minis ter Marc Lalonde. "The starting point is a request from the province, the Federal official said. The Manitoba Budget more or less assumed the Government would pay the new tax without a request. That's not the way it happens." Now, Mr.

Speaker, I'm talking about credibili ty. When I'm talkin g about credibili ty, I'm talking about governments gi ving honest answers in the House. Mr. Speaker, and I'm sorry he's not here, but at the earliest opportunity, I want this incom petent Mi nis ter of Fi nance to be able to stand before the House and tell us why he gave this answer on the 25th of May which, in accordance with what we hear from the Free Press from Ottawa, just doesn't pass muster for the truth.

I think that not only this House, but the people of Manitoba have the right to expect truthful answers and the question, and it's a very serious qu estion, Mr. Speaker, is whether we're getting truthful answers from this collection of people temporarily in the Exec utiv e Branch of Government across the way. Are we getting the truth from them on anything?

People who hide Quarterly Reports; people who won't call the Presid ent of Manitoba Hydro because it doesn't suit them; people who would sooner talk about freedom of information than do anythin g about it when they have a resp onsibil ity to this House to gi ve that information to this House and to the people of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, there are other petty details, but I'm 39 going to bring one to the attention of the Fi rst Min ister because I gave him some personal advice a few years ago when our positions were reversed in the House and when I saw this unfortunate tendency on his part, on dif ferent occasions, to colour the truth or to give it a certain mean ing that he knew it didn 't apply to. With in a matter of months, we've had the Fi rst Min is ter of this House saying to the press when the Opp osi tion wasn't around, "Oh, aren't we a good bunch.

We didn' t reduce, but we didn' t take as big an increase in the salary of the Cabi net this year. It's only a 6 percent increase that the Cabi net are getti ng." I went to a press conference qu ite openly and said, "How long are you going to let the First Min ister practice this kind of prevaricatio n?" The Cabi net hasn't got any salary increase this year at all, but all of the Mem bers of the House got a 1 O or 11 percent increase. What he's conveniently doing to try to make his pe ople look better is to say that they denied themselves an in crease as Mem bers of Cabine t. That isn' t true.

All Mem bers of the House took the increase as Mem bers of the House, but why would he try to pass it off as though the Cabine t had only taken a 6 percent increase? Why? That kin d of petty prevarication is demean ing to the Office of Premier and it shouldn't be practiced. I warned him two or three years ago that he had this bit of a flaw and that he should n't try to practice it as Leader of the Opposition. I warn him agai n, Mr. Speaker, that it deme ans the Office when he practices that kind of shading of the truth and then when he's caught up in it, stops doing it.

Well we're going to catch him up in it every tim e. We'll catch him up and, Mr. Speaker, I'm the fi rst to admit it's a small matter but I suggest it's a bothersome matter when people try to pretend that some thing 1s that isn't. Mr. Speaker, chalked up agai nst the record of cred ibili ty of this Government, we need more and we need better. We're in tough ti mes, Mr. Speaker. We've got a lot of people out there suffering and they need honest answers from a Government and they need the infor mation qu ickly, and the Op position, if it's going to work with the Government, needs the information qui ckly too.

It doesn't deserve, Mr. Speaker, in our parliame ntary system, to be treated with the kind of casual abuse that this Socialis t Government feels that it can treat the Opposition in Manitoba: (

a) we won't permit it, we won't to lerate it; (

b) it's bad for the sys tem; and (

c) they're going to dig themselv es into a hole out of which they'll never get. So, Mr. Speaker, I talk about credibi lity regrettably because we have to talk about credibili ty to this Government at this time, faced with the kind of record that this Government is faced with in terms of what it promised to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, this penchant for selective memory about facts is some thin g we're going to watch very, very carefully during this Sess ion, long as it may last, and for the remainin g years of this Government's life which will be about two-and-a-half or three. Mr.

Speaker, the Mini ster of Min es and Energy on the Grid negotiations, you rememb er how he used to stand up in the House; and we 'll be going into this later, I can assure him. We'll be going into it in great detail, so I want him to be aware of it right now that when he stood up in this House and talked about the Grid negotiations, all was going well; all was going

6 December, 1982 swi mmin gly; nothing to worry about at all. We're going to begin to find out, Mr. Speaker, just when the crucial breakdown on those negotiations took place. We've got a pretty fair idea right now and we're going to start comparing his statements to this House and statements he made to the Publi c Utili tie s Commit tee with the facts. I hope, for his sake, that the facts coin ci de. I hope for the sake of the House they coincide, but gi ven his record of cr edibility I'm going to reserve it as an open question until we finish our review, and review it we are doing at the present tim e. Mr.

Speaker, I've already told them, let us see that final offer that he made to the Governments of Saskat chewan and Alberta and we'll settle one question of credibil ity right away, whether Fred Cleverley's

article with respect to the hashed-up negotiations of the Grid and the final em barrassing recoup of this Government back to the position which we had left them with, whether that's true or whether the statements made publicly by the Min ister of Min es and Energy are true. A sim ple answer - all he's got to do is file the docu ment. We can all be the judges once we've see the document. Mr.

Speaker, the final matter I'd li ke to deal with today comes under the headin g of com petence and I have been dealing with that in some measure all the way through my remarks, about a Govr>rnment that has practiced deceit, a Government who·s credibili ty is very much in doubt, and now we come to the final matter of competence. Let's talk a little bit about com petence of a Govern ment. Can there be any reasonable question about the large projects? They were fum bled away and proba bly fum bled away, Mr.

Speaker, giv e or take a few weeks or months, in the early months of the admi nis tration of these people opposite. Mr. Speaker, I don't know if it's generally known or not and I don't feel that I'm telling any tales out of school, but I want the record to show, and the Fi rst Mi nis ter testif ied to this fact shortly after the chan geover in Government took place, we had arrange ments that were confi rmed by letter and by action in some cases, whereby all outgoing Min isters of the Conservative admin istration offered to brief their in com ing successors.

That took place in a number of instances; incom in g Minis ters met with the outgoing Minis ters, and in the interests of continu ity and to support the public interest, that kind of civil arrange ment is customarily made between retiring govern ments and incoming governments. The present Min ister of Resources will recall back in 19 69 he was sworn as Attorney-General under the Schreyer Government, and he and I had a long visit one afternoon in the Attorney-General's office and went over a numb er of the file s, a number of the mat ters that were going to be carried on.

That kin d of civi lity was offered again in 19 81 but, Mr. Speaker, unless my information is incorrect - and I stand to be corrected by the Min is ter of Mi nes and Energy, although I've heard from the other source - never once did he seek any guidance, never once did he seek any advice from the former Min ister, the Member for Riel , Don Craik, about the most important and crucial negotiations that had been carried on in this province in this century. Never sought one bit of advice at all, Mr. Speaker. 40 All I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, is that if that kind of bullheadedness and if that kind of conceit, if that kind of arrogance is what was motiva ting that Mi nis ter and his incom petent Deputy during the negotiations when they attempted to pick up the strings of negotiations of deals - in most cases they said they shouldn't have even been going on - then we know where the respon sibil ity lies for the loss of these thousands of job s today to Manit obans; then the Natives of Northern Manitoba who should be clearing today land for the new Li mestone site, then the retrained people from the min es who could be working on bulldozers and some of the other eq ui pment at that site today, they'll know where to lay that blame, Mr.

Speaker - on this Government, but particu larly on that Min ister. Then the unemplo yed craft people in southern Manit oba, the carpenters, the cement workers - what about the 70 laid off people at Canada Cement? What about them? If Li mestone were starting in construction today as it shou ld be, they would have job s at Canada Cement today. That's what I call doing some thin g meani ngful about unemplo yment, getting some thing going in this province; and Lime stone could be be going if it hadn't been fumb led away by the sheer incomp etence of this Government. Mr.

Speaker, I would hate to have to answer to my conscienc e if I· were the Leader of this Government or if I were any mem ber of the front bench for that kind of gross criminal neglig ence in the handling of public affairs of our province. I wouldn't want to have to answer to my conscience for the rest of my life. I wouldn't want to walk anywhere near an unemp loy ment insurance line in this province today. I would go and hide my face if I were the Min ister of Min es and the Premier or any of the other mem bers of this Govern ment and say we fai led in our job.

We fai led in the man date that you gave us and because we fai led you haven't got a job today, and that can't be said about all of them, no, but it can be said about several thousand Manit obans presently drawing UIC cheques who should be work ing for Canada Cement, who should be working for Manitoba Hydro, who should be work ing for general contractors in the Gi llam area; that's what can be said. When those people come to knock on the Minis ter's door or on the Fi rst Min ister's door, are they going to turn them away? What are they going to say to them? What excuse can they offer?

Can they say, as they say in this House, we're doing not as bad as most other provinces, is that the kind of thin gruel they're going to offer them? How are they going to explain to them that they lost it, that they lost the opportunit y for this pro vince to be buildin g northern Hydro projects till the turn of this century? How are they going to explain that, not only to the unemp loyed; how are they going to explain that to the milli on plus ci tizens of this pro vi nce? In one year, can you im agine it, Mr. Speaker?

In one year to have com mitted that kin d of gross om is sion of responsi bil ity and of mandate. Then, Mr. Speaker, I don't know how this Government can face the unemplo yed, let alone frice this House with that kind of a checkered record behind them . Com petence - we'll spend the rest of this Session probably talking about competence because there isn' t much of it on the other side. Large projects gone, and if com petence is gone, is there any room for

6 December, 1982 principle in a Government? And tha t's what we've been talking about in terms of credibili ty and all of these other matters. Mr. Speaker. The Attorney-General of this provinc e countenan ces a Human Rig hts Comm ission which is chaired by a law school colleague of his who is also of the same political stripe. What were those words that the Attorney-General used when he annou nced the appointment of Mr. Gib son? He said he wanted some one who thought the same way he did or words to that effect. some thing li ke that. Well, I noticed, Mr.

Speaker. and there'll be ample opportunity later in the Session to ask questions about this, I noticed that Human Rights Com mis sion of its own motion init iated inquir ies into statements that were made by a Jus tic e of the Court of App eal when there is already a tribunal that is charged with that kind of responsibil ity.

I noticed that commission, under the br illiant leadership of this friend, colleague and fellow socialis t of the Attorney-General, started an investiga tion of its own motion almost imme dia tely after a Member of Parliament was alleged by news papers to be making statements that the comm ission thought migh t have a racist overtone to them - of their own motion. They charged in where fools wou ld dare to tread, but they did it in two cases.

If the Attorney-General were here I would be ask ing him today: Has his pol itical friend and law school colleague, that great pervading legal mind, has he charged in already, as we would expect based on those two precedents? Has he charged into the car toon that appeared in La Li berte the other day? Are they going to conduct a separate investigation or is that a selective kin d of in itia tive that they use in the Human Ri ghts Comm ission under this benig hted leader ship of his colleague and social ist friend from the Un iversity of Manitoba Law Faculty. I ask it as an open qu esti on, Mr. Speaker.

Are we going to see a Human Ri ghts Commis sion prostituted into a form of Star Chamb er at the whim of some law school appoi ntee who happens to be a left wing politi cal friend of the Attorney-General? Is that what we are faced with now? I'm ask in g these questions because I think they deserve serious answers. I read, Mr.

Speaker. with a great deal of concern - and there'll be ample opp ortun ity in the Attorney-General's Estim ates to debate this and debated it will be - I read with a great deal of concern the kind of arrogant from on high "deli bera tion" that was made by the Chairman of the Hum an Rig hts Commis sion with respect to the comm ents of a Ju stice of the Court of Ap peal . I read that and I won dered. am I living in Manitoba and in Canada in 19 82? What kin d of a Star Chamber procedure is this? I think it's about time the people opposit e, Mr.

Speaker, started to rein in some of their soci alist friends over there who don't care as much about free dom as most of us. Indi vidual freedom is some thing we cherish a great deal in this provinc e. I merely say, withou t getting into the substance of this kind of debate at all, that ind ividual freedom will be protected and it will be applie d equally in this province.

If Human Rights Com mi ssions, notwithst anding, feel that they can go on some kind of a night riding escapade and invade the ind ividual freedoms and li berties of others, they too have another think coming and amendment s 41 can and will be made to their legisl ation and to their legisla tive authority so that Manitobans will not be subject to this kind of one-sided, selective approach that appears to be the hallmark of this Commis sion under the chai rmanship of the pol itical friend of the current Attorney-General. So, Mr. Speaker, I am talking still about credibil ity.

I am talkin g about a Government that says it believes in freedom of information, that it believes in individual freedom. Mr. Speaker, we are going to be chalking up the activitie s of this Government agai nst all of those pious hopes and posturings as we proceed in this Session. Well, Mr. Speaker, in general sum mary wi th respect to the overview of this Government. I mus t say that it is a Government that in one short year in office is reek ing, and I use the verb advised ly. It reeks of deceit; it reeks of mi sleading the public; it reeks of manipu la tion; it reeks of a lack of credibili ty; it reeks, Mr.

Speaker, of incom petence of a degree and kin d sel dom, if ever, seen in the his tory of our province. They can sit, Mr. Speaker, as contentedly as they wish, knowing that they don't have to go to the electo rate for another two-and-a -half or three years, but go to the electorate sooner or later they will. The tar nished record that they present to the people of Manit oba based on the first year alone is enough to deny them and thei r left-wing followers office in this province for a generation.

Losing the Grid alone was enough, but couple that with all of the other nonsense that's been going on; the financial affairs of the pro vinc e in dis array, the spending of this province liter ally out of control, people who talk about reprioriza tion and haven't the guts, Mr.

Speaker, to do anything about it; people who see the Civil Servic e grow by 500 or more in a year when everybody els e, the ones who are paying the bills, people are being laid off in this provi nc e, the taxpayers, and these people think that it's proper to be hiring more people and put them on the public dole, particula rly their friends, particula rly the ones from out of province, particula rly the Saskat chewanites who were turfed out of office in Saskat chewan. their social ist paladi ns, the ones who move about the country working only for social ist Govern ments and to hell with the public interest.

That's why, Mr. Speaker, we have a number of Orders for Return asking about some of these itin er ant gypsies who move about the country and who are nestlin g comfortably now in the only socialis t oasis in the country, save the federal Civil Service which is pretty well infested with them as well un der thei r friend, the one that they prop and keep into office, Mr. Trudeau. Well, Mr. Speaker, I haven't even begun to start to talk about the economy. I haven't even beg un to talk about the fiscal state, but there will be an opportunity. I haven't begun to do these things because, Mr.

Speaker. there are so many things that need to be talked about at this time and I am content that my colleagues will be able to carry on and to gi ve, as I have said before, chapter, line and verse, an indic t ment in those cases where it is deserved of incom pe tence, lack of credibili ty, deceit, mi sleading and manipu lation in each and every department of this Government. Mr. Speaker, I merely say to the Fi rst Mi nis ter what I

Monday, 6 December, 1982 said to the Chamber of Comm erce not too long ago. The Chamber of Com merce apparently said that they would lik e to have a trade mi ssion headed up by mem bers of this Government to go over to Europe and try to attract busi ness to Manitoba. I suggested, Mr. Speaker, and I say it here as well, that I don't think that is a very good idea to send any of these peop le across the way in the Government outside of the provinc e anywhere to try to tell anybody else about Manit oba.

When they are questioned about what they're doing to the fiscal circums tances of the Provinc e of Manit oba, it occurred to me, and I'm sure it occurs to tens of thousands of others, that these fiscal typhoid Marys that we have in office at the present time are hardly the am bassadors that we should be sending abroad to try to attract any investor to Manitoba or to try to loan any money to government in Manitoba. These people, Mr.

Speaker, who can't even look after the affairs of Manitobans; these who have a Leader who goes to British Columbia and tells the people of British Columbia that economic policy madness is what's wrong with the country. Here's what he said in that famous speech to Dave Barrett's social ists. "Canada's federal economic polic ies are nothing short of economic mad ness and the im pact they have had upon North Ame ricans has been little short of criminal," Howard Pawley said Saturday. He said he doubts there will be much change until a New Democratic Party Gov ernment is elected at the fed eral level. Well. Mr.

Speaker, I want to tell my honourable friend, the Leader of the House here, that he had better not hold his breath waiting for a federal NOP Government to be elected in Ottawa or he'll be blue in the face and six feet under. He'd better save his breath to cool his porridge because the NOP, Mr. Speaker, if the truth be known, it is because Governments such as the Trudeau Government have been following the phi losophy of the NOP that we're in the kind of trouble that we are in this country today. Mr.

Speaker, aside from this rather interesting preoccupation of the First Min ister to go outside of the province and offer gratuitous advice is some thing that we're findin g very interesting indeed. I guess some of the 24, 000 unem ployed wou ld wish that he would maybe stay home and pay attention to thin gs of a governmental nature here, rather than talking to a bunch of left-wingers in B.C. or at some labour union meeting in New Jersey or wherever he goes. - (Int erjection)- The dis tant voice, Mr.

Speaker, from Scottville up there, the one whose voice hasn't been heard and probably never will be heard in the Cabi net room, says, "What was I doing at a Reagan Conven tion? " I went down, Mr. Speaker, as an interested Canadian citizen to watch the democratic process in the Un ited States as pr acticed by the Republic an Party to see how they went about nomi nating a leader who later became the President of the Un ited States.

Now, my honourable friend, he can go to all of the nomi nati ng conventions for the NOP from now till the turn of the century and he'll never go to one where a Leader of the NOP will subseq uently be elected Prime Minister of Canada. I can guarantee him that today. So I believe in going to successfu l pol itical conventions. He can continue going to the left-wing failures if he wants. Noticing, Mr.

Speaker, that the Attorney- 42 General is back, I'm sure he could gi ve us some il lum ination on other conventions that he's attended over the years that would be even more exciting than some of the tame ones that the Mem ber for lnkster goes to. Well, Mr. Speaker -(l nterjection)- yes. My honou rable friend says he went to the IODE Convention and I supp ose he sti ll hasn't asked him self the question as to why they put the def umig ator on him before he went on the roof. Mr.

Speaker, I come back to what I said at the outset of my remarks, that the main consideration of this House at this time has to be the faltering economy of this provinc e, has to be the 24,000 more unemp loyed along with thei r brothers and their sisters who were unemplo yed at the beginning of the term, the 50- some-odd thousand people in Manitoba unempl oyed today, the highe st rate sin ce the Second World War in an economy where, with agriculture still the centre pie ce - some thin g that is not well understood by my honourable friends opposite - in an economy where they try to derive some satisfaction from the fact that the agricultural statistics that appear in the gross pro vincial product column are ones that are very, very much subject, as we all know, to conditi ons of drought, to conditions of flood and to other condi tions or acts of God over which no government has any control.

For them to try to draw any comfort from the fact, as they apparently do in the Conference Board statistics with that large component being made up of agricultural production in the provinc e, that that somehow or other indic ates that their man date in office has been successfu lly carried out, that, Mr. Speaker, is the greatest mis apprehension of all and to try to mi slead the people of Manitoba into believing that they have some responsibil ity and some direct control over that is probably one of the greatest deceptions of all. Because the one element of our economy, Mr.

Speaker, and the biggest element that is the furthest removed phi losophi cally from what my honourable friends practise and believe in in their envy ridden little mi nds, the one element in our economy that is so far removed from that is the agricultural community; the people who know about ind ividual land ownership and its value, the people who cherish ind ividual free dom, the people who want a minimum of government interference in thei r activitie s and so on, the people who want the right to sell land to fellow Canadians even though social ists may try to pr ohibit that from time to time. So, Mr.

Spear.er, when they try to derive some satisfaction from the fact that the agricultural communi ty is producing and producing well in this fiscal year in Manitoba, then I say congratulations to the farmers, but no thanks to this stumbling Govern ment opposite. Congratulations to the farmers and to the basic producers because they know what they're doing. Mr. Speaker, time does not permit any dis cussion of the core area fiasco that is being perpetrated by these people opposite, the unwarranted intrusion by the Minis ter of Urban Affairs into the affairs of the Cit y of Winn ip eg.

He's trying with his NOP candi date Deputy Min is ter whose term in office will be very short as well; he's trying with that fellow, that person, to run the Cit y of Winnip eg from his desk over here. You can't do it that way. It is antide mocratic to try to do it that way. It

Monday, 6 December, 1982 can't be done that way and, Mr. Speaker, it won't be done that way. So I put him on notice that he will be having to answer to this House for the kin d of arrogant interdis pos ition that he is putting in place between the duly elected council

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-3
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 3.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1569ae5b33a756248fe3f46ffbfae8c5f98aea86

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