VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m; - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY,. NOVEl-'BER 16, 1973 N0.109

T11e !1o'..lse met at 2: '1') p .I'!. :·tr. Speaker in the Chair. :·!R. SPEAKER: Tape :-1o. 5125 ~.r:·! - 1 Order, please! I am pleased to uelcome to the Rouse of Assembly on b~half of all han. members the han. Fernand Dube, Hinister of Finance, with the C'..overnment of New Brunswick and :nember of the New Brunst-l'ick Legislature. I know sll han. members join me in welcoming the minister and member of the Net~ Br\mswick Legislature to our House of .Assembly,' SO~!E HON. HEllBERS: ~!R. SPEAKER: :·1R. HICK?IAN: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY m:NISTERS: The han. I·!inister of Justice. Hr.

Speaker, I should lil~e by way of a ministerial statement to indicate, for the benefit of all hon. nembers, t!1e

schedule that government 1~ill bring before the Rouse for the remainder of this Legislative Assembly. I should point out that there are certain very pressing commitments that government must meet in the interest of the Province the latter pa:-·t of next week and the follm-ling Heek thereafter. Firstly~the eleven first ministers at the recent constitutional conference laid do"m a ver; tight

schedule to Provincial ~!inisters and Federal Minist~rs of Intergovernmental Affairs, the Attorneys C~neral, and other ::ti.nisters to prepare a.'ld present to the eleven first ministers in February a.'ld to the Canadian people a net; constitu:iort. iiavl.ng attended meetings goir.g ~;ack for twelve rears,I will not exude optimism at thi~ time but our instructions are very clear. A..'ld then starting the follmdng ~-1eek is the first llinisters meeting on the economy w;1ici1 in ir.y opinion uill probably be the most critical neeti'ng of Firs~ ;[inisters that has been h"'l.d in Canada for a long, long time. At that neeting 'it is incumbent that gover..ment be represented by

:·:R. !II C!C~'-'\ : the fi!'st rr.inis tcr, the:: ::on. t:·:2 Prcnier, and a very large ~elegation of mi:1is ters. Titnt bas already been indicated, the size, t~e C~vcrnment of Canada. in our negotiations ~~ith The Order Paper contains approximately, I think~fifty-four pieces of le.gislation. A!;out fifteen of these bills are money bills that have to be passed in order for the government to discharge its resp9nsibility and to carr; out the budget as ,.,as approved in the budget debate, and most of which have "t.eP..n debated in great length already.

:lovenbcr 16, 1973 Tape 512C> r:c -· 1 There arc some other pieces of le;islation that do not !all into the categor~ in any manner of. housekeeping but are part of th• novcrnnent's legislative programme as enunciated in the Speech from the Throne and also enunciated by hon. ministers since the House opened. I wciuld anticipate that mos~ of these bills will be ready for presentation to the House during this session. I do not anticipate very many new pieces of legislation coming before the House for which notice has not already been given.

There are two or three minor ones today, there may be some departmental ones and there may be others in the future. Because of the eovernment's responsibility and the time constraints imposed upon it and its responsibilities as a governnent, the plan is that we will not sit at night, because the night sessions are primarily designed to take care of the Estimates and the Budget Debate .and it has been the practice in this hon. ( House since I have been a member at least, to follow that routine following the bringing down of the Budget.

There will be times, I am quite certain, during the remainder of this session where it may be incumbent to sit a night session, which the rules permit, in order to deal with the business of the Rouse and of the Province. The Rouse will sit today. as proposed, and tomorrow. Monday and Tuesday; and then will adjourn to Monday, December 4, 1978 and will sit until Tuesday, December 12th. Again, meetings have been scheduled for ministers folloldnp, the First lUnister.s' ;·:eetint; in Toronto for that time.

I would hope that the lesislative programme of the House will have been favourably debated ~rid favourably considered by the Rouse by that date, but, if not, then we will continue at a date to be decided sometime in the ~ew Year

~cve~ber 16. 1978 Tnpe 5127 rc - 1 because it is incumbent upon this House, I submit, and upon ::;overnment, to complete its legislative programme. 1-le had hoped, Hr. Speaker, as a government, that as the legislation presently before the House, in our opinion, can be dealt with effectively and quickly in the next two or three days,that we could call a new session of the House of Assembly in December of this year.

And we were calling this new session of the House of Assembly for one reason and one reason only - and I realize that in calling a new session of the House we impose a burden upon all han. members, a work burden which I am sure they are prepared to share and to assume - the only conceivable way, in the government's opinion, that we can debate some very serious issues that should be set forth clearly and will be set forth clearly in the next Speech from the Throne,of profound interest to the people of this Province.

And I list these items on which we are anxious to have a full-scale debate, anci,in my opinion, can only be debated if the government has an opportunity to set forth in a Speech fro• the Throne what its policies are: firstly, the fishery; secondly, the First Minister's Conference to which I have referred. We will ~now within two weeks what economic course this nation is going to take and we will know the very serious effects the decisions made at that conference by the Government of Canada may have upon the future of this Province.

Ue will have in the new Speech from the Throne details ~f the Lowar Churchill Development Corporation which we want to debate. We will also have details of the Labrador Linerboard mill which I believe is worthy of debate ~s part of a government policy programme. We will have,as well, details with respect to the econony and what actions must be taken, and th~se actions will be

dict3tad, as lton. ~enbers ~cow, to a very lar~e extent by decisions that vill be ~adc in the nation's capital tonight and two weeks, approxi~ately,froc today at the First ~inisters' Conference. That is the plan, that is the programme, that ~overnment in the exercise of its responsibility Yill bring before this Legislature. And I vould hope, and I express the hope at the beginnin~ of this adjourned sitting that this Rouse will be prepared to ~et on with the Province's business and that we will see a dec~ruc and a co-operation froc all han. cenbers that will rnako this t:ouse work.

As a governnent, we are prepared to do our shnre. !!ear, hear! ~!!\. SPE.\l:::z: 71Je hon. the Lender of the --~---- Orposition. :m.. !J. :r. ROUE: Hr. Speaker, if the press were hopin~ {__the session tlas ~oing to start off uith a bang, they have been sadly mistaken after that - How can I characterize it? - soporific introduction by the Minister of Justice, the House Leader. l!ouever, Sir, Ye appreciate the sentinents.

Before sayin~ anythinr about tlte han. ~inister's ~inisterial Statement. first of all let me Rural Developru?:nt and the ~finister of 'funic!;;nl Affilirs. ~e have nlready congratulated then personally outside the ~ouse ~ut I think it is incunbent on us to do it in tho House as Hell. We welcone thern to the r3nJcs of tl1e ~inistrv acd I hope tllat ~hey Yill have a verv enjoyable. very rewardin~ stay whether it be short or lon~. in the front benches of the ~overnnent. I would also li~e to conqrntulate

~;cv\.~:-!ber 16. 1978 Tape Sl2i :c -· J hi~ .ele:v?.t:ion to ltigll nE~icc:· 3 v~ry deservin~ youit~ ~an, ~nd l1e ~ot w!13t l1e, I thinl~, uas looki~~ ~or nnd only what he deserved. Sir, :·;e con~ratulate him as well. :\~T no:·T. :·IE:rnr.:~: Geor~e CrC'SS. :1R. 1.1. :T. RO~·lE: '-!hat happened to 'r.eor;>:e'? :·'hat did he get? ne is in the sa~e spot, a new hat. ~lF.. ~.;. (!. ~O~·n::: ·-------- 0h, yes, that is rir,ht. The :1cn. the nem~er for llonavista :lorth as ~·Tell deserves our con~ratulations. I notice ~hat the member for Placentia C·~r. Pntters<'

n) since his recent statenent seens to have been move~ further towards the door of the hon. ~o~sc, >!:-. Speal:er. I do not know if it is ~ercl? a coinci~ence or whether it had sonethinz to ~o with recent public statements which he r.~ade which were not altORCther compli~entary as fnr

November 16, 1978 Mr. ~~. N . Rowe : they may have been. Tape 5128 (Afternoon) PK - 1 as the government is concerned, however true Now, Sir, .I am glad that the government has responded to the challenge which we threw out some days ago to try to bring this session of the House to a speedy close, deal with the routine matters as quickly as possible, and get a new session of the House convened as quickly as possible as well with a new Throne Speech, a new Budget, and a new list of l.egislation which can deal with the economy and our serious unemployment situation, Sir.

This session, the present session has now drawn to a close. There is some legislation on the. books that can b'e passed rela.tively quickly provided that nothing provoking or nothing which detracts from the ability of members to seriously consider this legislation arises from the other side of the House. ·I refer particularly, Sir, to an insulting comment made by the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) this morning which is calculated to destroy whatever decorum this House of Assembly should have. Not only was it insulting, Sir, it was untrue and wrong.

If there is a new session of the House called in December of this year, for example, no member of this House gets additional money as a result of that, Mr. Speaker. If he were to apply for it and get it he would be off his head because he would have to pay income tax on double sessional indemnity. If the House is convened in a new session in December of this year no member profits from that, Sir.

Our request and our challenge to the ministry, to the government was done in good faith and in an effort to co-operate with the government in getting a plan of action together to deal with the disastrous economic problems facing this Province. I think, speak for every member of the House when say that, on both sides. We want to grappel with the problems. We want to solve these problems. We in the Opposition are more than willing, Sir, to do our

part in trying to so 1 ve these big prob 1 ems, prob 1 ems ~1hi ch are facing every person in the

November 16, 1978 Tape 5128 (Afternoon) Mr. W. N. Rowe: Province and if they are not solved, Sir, will, I believe, lead to economic disaster, not in the long run, but in the short run. We are willing to do our part, we ,are eager to do our part, Sir, we are willing to co-operate. We hope the House will have decorum during what remains in this session of the House, Sir, and we should be putting forward our own views and our own ideas on some very serious matters facing this Province. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Fogo Island. And this petition follows a delegation which visited the Capital over this past two or three days and have met with several of the ministers involved in the goings on and problems pertaining to Fogo Island. Mr. Speaker, the petition is signed by 419 residents. And the prayer of the petition is: "We the people and the United Councils of Fogo Island, and the Fogo Island Improvement Committee do earnestly pray'; Mr.

Speaker, and once again they do earnestly pra~"that the House of Assembly will accept and support this petition requesting that the gravel roads on Fogo Island will be ungraded and paved next year. and that support will be given to the brief accompanying this petition on behalf of transportation in general, both on land, sea, and in the air.• Mr.

Speaker, in supporting this petition there is much information and facts pertaining to the petition that PK - 2 I think I should read the sentiments of. the people of Fogo Island and· their concern regarding the road conditions on the Island. ''The Fogo Island Co-op and the fishermen and production workers ~tho share in its ownership and control is the largest single source of salt fish in Canada. ·In 1977 more ·than 20 per cent of the total value of Newfoundland's salt fish

November 16, 1978 Tape 5128 (Afternoon) PK - 3 Capt. E: Winsor: ~1as 1 anded and processed on Fogo Is 1 and. The export value, Mr. Speaker, of that fish amounted to approximately $18 millions in 1977. Fogo Island is one of the oldest continual settlements in North America, is one of the last remaining areas of Newfoundland with grave 1 roads. Ten mi 11 ion pounds of fish are transported annually over

::ovember 16, 1978 Tape ~:o. 5129 C..~TAIX HIXSOR: :mpaved reads on Fo~o Islar.d. A"<:l this is a very serious r.latter, :!r. Speaker. The programme announced by the !!inister of· Fisheries, Strategy and Develcpr.\ent of the Fisheries, cannot work on Fogo Island unless the government sees fit to upgrade and pave the roads.

Because top quality fish uill not be exported off Fogo Island for the simple reason that a vast amount of that fish has to be transported by truck over not really gravel roads, but rocky roads, and then 7 of course, 1d th what dust there is deteriorates the product at:d ·therefore the fishermen are losing a considerable amount of money, because of the government's irresponsibility, I ;~ould say.

So it is no use for the :·linister of Fisheries to bring in a prograrnr.1e unless he has the co-operation of other departments of the government, or otherwise the whole thing Hill be a failure. 1-lh:!.le it is impossible to fix in actual dollar loss to fishermen from the Island's fish be:!.ng transported over unpaved roads, deterioration of product quality is a constant l·:orry for the fishing industry on the Island. The .gravel roads on Fogo Island are anong the ~10rst in Newfoundland. Roads on Fogo Island have the :1ighest maintenance cost in the Island of Newfoundland.

School buses on Fogo Island have had to be ~uspendcd periodically because of unsafe read conditions relating to •1eather. The Fogo Island Co-op must srend man)' thousands of dollars annually in excess of nornal maintenance costs on its fleet of trucks due to improperly nen·iced roads.

Since the paving of that small stretch of road extending from Seldom to i1ercer 1 s Memorial Drive, not a single square metre of pavement has been added to Fogo Island roads, despite frequent appeals from .the peoi)le, and I nay <~dd frot:l their :.·lliA, of t::e Island,· for relief fron desperate, inadequate roads to the Government of

•.. ::.:. - ~ 1leHfoundland and Labrador. Hr. Spea!ter, bad road conditions are stifling the economic growth on Fogo Island. Good road as 1~e all k."low encourages and increases productivity and opens up new employment opportunities. Fogo Island will :1ot be· able to- fulfill its full potential until a system of highways is brought up to its .comparable standards as in other parts of t·<ewfoundland. '1 Now, Mr. Speaker, I only have one minute or perhaps :ess than tha::. I support this petition ancl I ask ia God's na1:1e, Hr.

Speaker, when is government going to ac~1owledge this serious situation that we have on Fogo Islanci1 I said before and I will say again, the economy of Fogo Island is being stifled by the callous attitude toward Fogo Island. Is it because they elect a Liberal memb£ r, 11r. Speaker? i·!R. FLIGHT: Of course it is. GAl''iAIN WINSOR: Or is it because of the callous attitude of the government? :-fr. Speaker, I support this petition and request that it be placed on the table of the House and referred to. the department to o7hich it relates. ~:R. SPEL'<EP.: . l1R. STRACHA.'~: The hen. member for Eagle River. Hr.

Speaker, I think last year and the year before I rose and supported a aimilar petition from the people of FOE;O island, 1~ho every year have asked for upgrading of the raads and, in fact, in 1973 •~hen I l·,as in Fogo •~e asked for the same thing~ the reasons beiag that Fogo Island is not a community which is going down hill or degraded, it· is a community r·:hich is very alive, very prosperour.. Out of the population of I believe 3,700 people - CAPTAIN \o.'INSOR: 1-iore than ~Lat t•oH.

~iove:nl.Jer 16, 197'3 T:-.pt: ~:o. 5129 .,_, - 3 ::P.. STR.;Cr.AN: - or close to 4,000, I ur.~erstand, that as of last month t!1ere 11ere only t\·10 families on welf~n, or. thnt ,,•hole island, tuo fnmilies out of 4,000 people. That· is .! credit to the people of Fogo Island 1lno have 110rl~ec hard t!trougit their Co->Jperative, they have worked very hard and helped the fishermen, all the communities on the Island, and I rcaU.zc full 1;ell the problems tl1ey are faced l·:rith.

In 1973 we were in the same position in having to decide 11hether He ~~ere going to :1aul fish from Tiltin1~, Joe Batts Ar:n, Barr'd Islands, Shoal Bay, Island Harbour, Deep Bay, whether ~1e would haul that fish in the round state into Se-.~ .. c!m~ Come By

:.;overJ::er 16th, 1<':78 Tape No. 5110 :'11·7 - 1 for filleting and processing of ••hether He could fillet it outside the stations, the small stations in the co=unities,provide local ,.,ark and haul the fillets across the roads. l·!e had to decide to carry the round fish l,ecause the roads were in such bad condition, such bad shape that the fillet, by the time it arrived in Seldom Come By, the Seldom plant the fillet 1vas in such a poor condition)and certainly 1:~e could not continue a lvashing process, wash fillet_ once it came off the roads_, sc ;..•e decided to go an expensive route rather than the route 1ve wanted to go.

I believe that the Fogo Island people deserve it; it is something that is a reasonable reque~t. It is not a request from people who are sitting back on their haunches and producing nothing for the economy of the 1vhole Province as ~Yell. as the economy of . the local area. I think the fishermen there have 1vorked extremely hard since 1967 in trying to make the co-operative a success despite many problems that they faced and I think that; they -:leserve every help and assistance from the government. I think the last three years He have asked for this.

I thin1: that th'! government should end this nonsense in Fogo Island ~Vhere people. Hho are really contributing something to the economy of the Province should be given that kind of assistance. I think it is important that as '•!ell as looking at the fishery 1;e also look at ·providing infrastructure which can provirle the fishery lvith thc;t ber..efi t.

T.:nJ.ess •;e have the water and seHerage and the roads and infrastructure in place r.tany of these communties cannot carry on and provi~e the finished product, the top quality finished product which Hill give them a rightful place in· the market and command the highest prices. So I think 1\S ~~ell as lool:i::<g at that side of it I think we must look at the infrastructure side of it and I believe that their request is a justifying one 1 it is one they have been asking for for the last three years that I have been in this !!ouse and a number of years since then •. I thin\:

::ovember lC:th, 11173 Tape :-:o. 51J'J Tl!·: - ?. that it shoulc! be given to the!!l ·- not given to them it is something whic~1 they, by virtue of their tnx'!s, by the virtue of their hard work have earned. It is something that ia not a gift or anything like that. I support t!-:e ~rayer of this petition and hope that the gove~ment this year in this time around ~~ill see that they fullfil a commitment to the Fogo Island people and build the roads they so desperately reauire. :OOJ.!E RON. llEl!BERS: Rear, hear~ !'R. SPEAXER: The han. Leader of the Opposition.

I rise, Sir, to support ~rhole-heartedly the petition presented by my friend and colleague the metiber for Fogo district (Captain Winsor). Every year we ha,re seen a similiar petition and every year, unfortunately, up til now the people's request has not { been met by· a very favourable response by the government which is too barl, Sir 0 3ecause I do not need to go into detail of the econo~ic cor.ditions in Fogo Island but,in fact,it is one of the more ~oo~ng oarts of our econony h.o.sed on the fishery, based on the salt fishery and other aspects of the fishery as well.

Did I hear 20 per cent of the total prodnction of ·salt fish in the Province is prepared :-:R. STRACHJ\J.\1: Ti1e salt fish corpo-::-;:.tion is the biggest customer. !(ll. W .N. ROHE: - biggest customer, Sir, on l"op;o Island - 20 per cent. So it certainly says a lot for the people of the area, for t!1e learlers and for the people generally i:1 t:1at area of the Province. I might add by way of a personal note, Sir, my Oh'n ancestors came from Fogo Island 1 not too far removed,grendfather and grandmother one from Seldom, one from Joe Batt's.

The Leader of the Opposition - the Leaner cif the :mP, I shoulc! say, I am tiiinking about the future ~~hen I sain opposition, Sir, uhen the Liberal Party sees in tl-Je government - the Leaner of the :mr Party, 1!r. Greene)

'::ape 5130 comes from Tiltins on Fo~o Islan•1. So I have to only inquire to myself t~hether - A:'l HON. ~tEl lEER: The minister of Public !•1orks (t!r. Brett) come from Fogo Island. l:R. H.:l. ROHE: The Hinister of Public \o!orks comes from Fogo Island as ~~ell. Very good. Grand! Rut, Sir if only the P.remier of the Province or his ancestors carne from Fogo Island I do not think t~e <mulrl be t1aiting this long for the pavement, the upgrading and pavement t.:hich is so richly deserved by the people.

It t·7as not long ago that there was a question in the minds of the people on Fogo Island as to <vhether or not they <vould stay there or u!:iether they t~ould move. I recall it very well, Sir, I recall it very tvell. ~~y han. friend the member for Sagle River ('•r. Strachan). recalls it very Hell as <vell. And,.

Sir, the credit due to the people on Fogo Island <Tho c!ecided that they di-:l t~ve a good econot:'.ic base t:>.ere, th:o.t th~y could, ·,lith ~overnc:ent assistance initially an:i with their m·m efforts continously, they could econorocally make sol':'.ething out of t•~e communities on Fogo Island and make it an economic:o.lJy via:Ole part of our Province. They are to he congratulated fo~ that, Sir, I recall as

November 16, 1978 Tape 5131 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Mr. \4. N. Rowe: well that during the 1975 election the P.C. candidate for that district read a telegram out at a public meeting? Where? CAPT. E. WINSOR: At a gathering on the road. MR. W. N.

ROWE: At a gathering on the road, and read a telegram which was from the. then Minister of Highways, if my memory serves me correctly,committing $1 million for upgrading and paving the roads on Fogo Island, a commitment, Sir, which was never kept, unless, of course, it was a commitment which was similar to the commitments made in the Twillingate by-election and the commitments made in some of the other by-elections,namely, that - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the hon. Leader of the Opposition that in supporting a petition he may not debate even what could be considered related matters.

The hon. gentleman. MR. W. N. ROWE: I appreciate that, Mr. Speaker. am just trying to hew to the truth of the situation as much as I can. Let me conclude by saying I support the petition; that ·I hope this was not one of those commitments which was dependent on a particular. member getting elected, because that would be the worst kind of combination of political bribery and blackmail, the nature of which we have seen enough of in this Province in the past six or seven years.

Let me say I support the petition, Sir, and I hope that the government will in the upcoming construction season see fit to honour the commitment which they have already made, something which they should do any way even if. no commitment had been made, because it is something which is well deserved, will add to the economy of the area, and increase the social well-being as well of the 4,000 people presently living on Fogo Islarld. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Grand Falls. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to associate as well with my colleague for Fogo Island (Capt. E. Winsor). I have had calls from

November 16, 1978 Tape 5131 (Afternoon) Mr. Lundrigan: the delegation indicating their intention to work through their member in presenting a petition. As most members would be aware I served Fogo Island for six years as a federal member and can attest to the validity of the ·need for road improvements. There are two major needs on Fogo Island; maybe the major need is the need for freezing facilities and matters that pertain to the fisheries development, the continuous fisheries development. And the second need is more than the service need, it is an economic need as well, and that is the road system.

Members who are familiar with Fogo Island, which I would presume includes all of the members of the Legislature, will be aware that we have one ribbon of pavement going from Seldom to Fogo Harbour, then you have your two main arteries down to Tilting Harbour and into the,other end of the Island into Island Harbour and Stagg Harbour which are both very important fishing areas, and all of the areas nave fishing facilities, and you really need the road connection in order to make the Is1and1 give it the economic stability it deserves. But, Mr.

Speaker, Fogo Island is perhaps unique in Newfoundland as an experiment and an experience carried on to a considerable extent in the last ten or t~telve years where the people themselves made a determination that they were going to develop their community at large.

Now we have seen Fogo Island, as the Leader of the Opposition said,go from a resettlement connnunity which it was, it was the largest designated resettlement connnunity in the Province. went there in 1968 as a candidate for the election and I got so depressed after being on the Island for two or three days with the multitude of problems like,people standing .in the corridor of the hotel until three o'.clock·in the morning and me with a black notebook taking hundreds of notes from people PK -: 2 who really, you could not really help,they had to really decide themselves what they wanted to do.

And the key question was; are we going to resettle? What would you do? Do you think we should' resettle?

November 16, 1978 Tape 5131 (Afternoon) Mr. Lundrigan: And thanks to the leadership of the University to a considerable extent,and the people who believed in rural Newfoundland and worked with the community of Fogo Island, the community remained. And I believe today, from what I learned last year from one of the banking institutions,Fogo Island has one of the highest per capita banking deposits in the Province, if not the highest per capita banking deposits in the Province. A t:; marvelous success. A national story.

A story, as a matter of fact, that has reached as far as Washington where the American people and the American officials in government have been looking at the methods and ways that were used to help the people of Fogo Island look at themselves and determine what they wanted in their future. PK - 3 A tremendous success story. And I think an~body standing in their place here today have to recognize that this is something that has happened in the last number of years. It is not a depressed situation. it is not a hopeless situation, it is a very, very progressive situation.

It is something that I have recommended in the last few days to one of the national news media;that they do a special on Fogo Island in order to focus on something that should be parellelled in every rural community of our Province. I recognize having said that, I recognize that the need for road communications ~,n Fogo Island is one of the biggest road needs in the Province. And would implore the minister,. when he decides as he will be doing. in the next number of weeks on the Spring Budget,to look at that as

:iover.~ber 16. 1973 T:1pe 5132 F.C - 1 .. :!R. I.C::;DRIGA::: :1 top priorit::. I t<ould r:Jte that matter, with the exclusion of ~a~y cf the coastal Labrador road problems, as maybe the most inportant service and economic road needs in the Province. There are other areas, like I say. Hy friend from Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan) would certainly have a lot to say about that as well, but this, to ~y knowledge at least on this coast 7 from here as far ~orth as I a~ familiar with, would be, maybe,the highest economic and service need combined. and I would suggest that my colleagues who might not be as conversant with Fogo Island, really look at this particular matter and give it the highest kind of a priority. I do not think there ere any political implications to why t~e decision has been not to go ahead, I am sure there are other areas as well.

It might be a fact that maybe the member has not been as aggressive as he should be, that is certainly a possibility. As he is a nice guy, maybe he has not been as azgressive as he should be. But in any event,! very strongly, sincerely support the petition. :.rR. SPEAKER: HR. CALL Ali: The hon. the member for Tiellevue. ar. Speaker, I rise to speak in support of the petition so ably presented by ~y colleague for the district of Fogo (C:1pt. E. Winsor). a petition, of course, on behalf of the residents of Fogo Island asking for - a very simple request really, an improved road system on that island.

Let me ,reface my re~arks, Mr. Speaker, by making a couple of points: number one, I was a little ~it surprised, and of course, towards the end of it a little bit disa?pointed to see the hon. the member for Grand Falls C~=· Lundrigan) rise in support of the petiticn because it was only last Spring in this House

EC - ~ :! :. . C .\L LA:;: ---------- that he thou~ht that petitions were a waste of time it was the only Le;.islature in Canada where petions could be presented and so on. ~·1? .. SPEAKEr .. : Order. please! Order, please! I would direct t~e h~n. ~entleman to confine his remirks to the actual petition, what mizht be related to it. but what another hon. member might have said some months ago and a difference of opinion hon: members mi£ht have had then with respect to procedures in the House would only bring up matters which are certainly not before the ~ouse now and not inherent in this petition ... HR.

CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ::r. Speaker, in supporting this petition, I want to say that it is not my intention to waste the time of the House. On every occasion that a petiti~n is presented in this House that has to do with pavement or paved roads or improved road conditions, I am prompted to rise in my place and to su,port that because I am well aware of what is happening in so~e of tl'-.ese districts: I have been there, and of course. 1.t re~inds me continually of the treatment that some of the roads have or have not received in my own district.

And at the same time, ~r.Speaker, I want to perhaps make a suggestion to the member for Fogo (Capt. E. Hinsor).

No doubt he has probably thought about t~is before and perhaps has already done it, but in view of the fact that a l~rge number of the road systems in this Provine~ that are being upgraded and paved are being done mostly by the federal government, it is my conclusion that possibly this would be a good idea for the roads on Fogo Island, that the :Iinister of Transportation and Communications in this Province, the new minister now, along with the member for Fogo and 1 of course, the appropriate peopl2 in Ottawa try to have this road system on Foco Island

::ove!:iber 16. 1973 7ape 5132. ;:c . J i~cludet.l unc.ler a ;)!t~;.: .J..';~eer.tent, because ~e have cvcrytlting in tl1e world included in J~[~ acreenents. It was not too lon~ ago that I wrote the far~ar ~inister of Transportation and Communications and also the ~inister in. Ottawa and the member in the Cabinet representin8 Newfoundland, :!r. Don Jamieson, in Cottawa, .:1sl:ing that a sinilar thinb be done in my own district, a stretch of road that, in ~y opinion, nakes an awful lot of sense to have included in a JREE agreement.

They are roads th~t arc being used for every other purpose, but primarily, as the menber mentioned in presenting the petition, nillions of pounds of fish are being trucked over these roads annually. And, of course, these communities on Fogo Island, lil:e the fishing communities in my own district,

Tape Xo. 5133 :-::! - 1 are primary :;>roc!ucers, tl!cy are tZl.e ;:-eople ,;:to put out t;le :1.e1~ dollars in this Province. CAPTAIN l-TESOP.: ~-!R • CALL<' .N : They create ne•~ dollars. They create the ne\v dollars b;.• bringing in the fish and then_.of course,it has to·oe trucked to various fish plants in Bonavista Bay, Trinity Bay and Conception Bay and so. on. So, Hr.

Speaker, in conclusion, I i10pe that t~is year, nex!: Spring •.vhen the new budget is broug;.1t dow"'!1 and passed by this }:ouse and so on, I :tope that these roads on :'ogo Island, like the roads in my own district, t-ri.ll be included for paving because I think the people have been suffering and have been discriminated against for too long. ~!R. SPEAKER: TI1e hon. member for Port au Port. ~fR. HODDER: !fr. Speaker, I too rise to support the petition presentedby the han. meraber for Fogo (Captain Winsor).

I take every opportunity, }!r. ·Speaker, to speak on a petition of this nature since a sir.~ilar situation, perht'.ps a more intense situation exists in my o•·m district. I -:muld not, ::!r. Spc.::ke::-, •·•ant co be accused of not being aggressive enough in pursuing the particular matters as far as roads are concerned in my district and I do not ;<nm• hoH I can te nny 7lort.~ .2:;gressj.ve unless I beat the current '·!i.ni'3ter of Transportation o.r.ci Cor.u:-:unications ow,r tl1e i1ead 1-1ith a stic:;;. In the district of Port a"J Port, :·\r. Speaker, there are three r-Ja1s that need pavin£;.

Eac\, o:-.e of ti1ose roads either go to a i;arbour which is i>eing developed, or go to a fish plant. In the Spring of last yearone of the most productive fishing areas in the district, in the i1ei~:ht of t:1e fisning season the fish buyers and the fishennen coulJ not gE.t ~a· thoir bo.qts because the road for several cays uas ia nn impassil>le

.\-:·! - 2 :·s.. ::oJDE:1: c:-nC.ition. .-\ftcr t:1at so'8E: Si5.~08 or s:r,ooo was spent on tha road. ·I predict, ~lr. Speaker, that the same situation ,.;ill occur this year.

In addition to that the ft!deral government are now spending $1.4 million in developing a natural harbour in that particular area and the provincial goverrunet~t,you know, somewhere along the line cs far as the Fisheries Department is concerned, and the Depar~ent of Transportation and Comr.tUnications, they must identify those areas of the Province ,;here roads ~:.-e :teeded, the roads to the resource, -.-here the money needs to be spent to get the nm;i:r.um value and tlle maximum yield from t!lose areas.

Nr, Speaker, there are th:::ee roads, again each one of them goes to - one goes to a natural harbour being built at Three Rock Cove anci the other one goes to Fox !;;land River, the other one to Blue Beach. Until the gover.ment decides t11at these roads be upgraded we will continue to have confusion, .particularly in the Spring. That is when the roads break up, and that is when the maximu:n fisr.ing effort takes place.

And I vould suggest·, Mr, Speaker, that perhaps ,;e need an overall comprehe.nsive policy to sit do'm and identify the roads across the Province such as Fogo, such as Port au Port, and such as many other districts in the Province, and to go and do these roads first. Hear, hear! i•!ell spoken. P?.ESENTI::!G !U:PORTS BY STANDING Al.'W SPECHJ.. CO:.fHITTEES : !!R. SPEAKER: '·ffi.. H. CARTER: The hon. J.~inister of Fisherh,s. ~!r.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to table the Kellogg Report onto the establishment of a prinary landing or distribution centre in Nev1foundland, as well as the regional study conducted by people :•ithin the Provincial Department .of Fisheriez, and also the 1-lhite Paper that ~-.·as the subject of a confe:.-enca iu St. Joh:1' s recently, again having to do ~o.•ith strategies and programmes for the development of our fisheries.

Tare :·:o. 5133 ~: - 3 NOTICES OF ?-:OTION: :·~. SPE . ..UIR: Tl1e han. }linister of Education. ~rR. HOUSE: :·!r. Speaker, I give notice tha~ I will on tonorrot.; ask leave to ir.troduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The !!emorial University Act." tlP ••. SPEAKER: MR. HICIOI . .AN: The han. l::inister of Justice. Hr. Speaker, I give notice that I tdll on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To ;.nend The Public Utilities Act." ~·!!!.. SP!':AKER: ~!R. PECKFOP.D: The hon. Minister of :·lines and Energy. :·~r. Speaker, !_give not:!.ce that I tdll on tomorrow ask leave to introduce 11 bill, "An Act To Amend The Brinco Limited Labrador Agreement Act, 1974."

::ov~rnb.:;r 2.G, 1973 J. :·!R. S?EAi:ER: The han. the Leader of the ·Jpposition. :IR. r..;. il. RO~::: I wonder would the Eouse Leader tell ~e whether the Pre~ier is gorte for the uay or ~hetaer he is coming back or what is the situation? :·IR ; Iii C lZ:.lAI-1 : (Inaudible). '.'ery p,ood. I hope Your ~!onour will add a ninute on to the - Sir, I would like to ask the Premier one or two questions relatin~ ~o the industrial development of the Province particularly with regard to the Linerboard mill and Game By Chance refin~~y.

First of all, Sir, we have had promises or statements no~ since :lay or June of this year concerning the prospective opening day of Linerboard or when a deal might be consumated. I realize the difficulty of trying to put a deal like this together, but would the hon. the ?renier give us so~e indication now as to whether he can give us a specific date on which the sale will take plate or the a~reement will be entered into, or if he can not, can he ~ive us sone idea as to the range of time that we are talking about ~hen it comes to the Labrador Linerboard - ~hen the thin~ is likely to be finished?

The han. the ?rerder. i·!r. Speaker. I Hill ask the ~inister of Industrial Developmen~ tn add to any rcmarkR I have resarding this. The situation, as the Leader of the Opposition and, I RUess, everybody in the ?rovince knows, is that the Divestiture Committee nade up of senior officials of government, members of the union, people fr~n the area, people from the financial community, have

~ovcnber 1~. 1~78 -:-c - ~F.r:::IE:! :lOORES: ··- ------------ been wor!;inz on this ~or n lonz ·.·thile. It has reached the stage where there ~rc t~o firm proposals befoie government.

These are no1-1 sub_::ect to analysis by not just our officials, but by ourselves as well, and as soon a~ we have identified that arrangement which is best for the Province we will be making the announcement and certainly discussing it as to what exactly is entailed, Out, Sir, until such time as those details have been worked out in a thorough manner, I think it would be wrens to try to give a piecemeal answer to what was a complicated problem, but for which hopefully there will be a beneficial solution. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! :1P.. H. :i. ROHE: ---···--·----- A supplenen tary, Hr.

Sfleaker .· A supplementary, the Leader of the Opposition. ~!!h H. N. ROHE : So, ~r. Speaker, from the Premier's answer, he cioes not know yet when the deal will be signed. Is it a. matter of days or weeks or months does the Premier think? :·iR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PRE:HER ;-~nQRES: It is certainly within that ranse,. ar. Speaker, but I t~ould like to think it is a oatter of days. ~·IR. ~·l. :~. ROHE: Nil! the Premier, Sir, by way of a supplementary - :rr .. SPEAKER: A supplementary. :·IR. t:. ~l.

ROHE: By way of a supplementary, would the Premier tell the Uouse whether the deal will be made prior to the submission of the contract and the consumated deal to the Ilouse of ,\ssembly, or will the liouse itself have an opportunity to discuss some of these proposals before any irrevocable decision or irrevocable deal is made with some paper company?

·~ove~b~r 16, 1973 ;:c 3 The hon. the Premier. PRE:·!ER :iOORES: :rr. Speaker, the government will carry out its responsibilities to govern and certainly input by all members of the ·neuse is welcome, but that will never, nor can it ever relieve us of the responsibility of making decisions which have to be made in what we consider to be the best intereGts of the Province. SOME liON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear! i·!R. H. :1. ROl·IE: --------- That is a departure, Sir, from the past seven years.

Would the Premier indicate - if he cannot do it perhaps the llinister of Industrial Development can do it - can the Premier indicate how much coney was spent in respect of the Liuerboard mill? now much money was spent in the closedown of the mill for the fiscal year ended March 31. 1978 and to date if those figures are available? They should b~ available since the minister is obviously very close to what is ~oing on. t:R. SP EA!(!:R: The hon. the Premier. PRE .. .HER l100RES: ~r.

Speaker. the information of what money was wasted, what money was spent, what money it cost and what money will be received. will all be in the final presentation. :·m.. :·1. !·l. ROHE: Sir, I am sorry if the hon. member would not mind. :[? .. SPEAKER: ·-------- A supplementary, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. ~·~R. l·i. :1. ROHE: I indicated at the ber,innin~. Sir, I wanted to ask a few questions on the general economic development of the Province.

Moving from t~e Linerboard mill - and I am sure the hon. member can go back to it agai~ with You~ Honour's permission -but mavin~ from the Linerbocrd mill to the Cone :O:y Chance refinery. Si.r, h-:.s the .:;overn~ent

'!:;:tpe 51J4 !C - 4 ~·~R. ~~. :; . ~01·7!::: ~een the· t~·!.O !'ro~osal~ fron, ap~arently. according to the newscasts, the First Arabian Corporation and Shaheen, and have they had a chance to decide on which of the two proposals, if there are two proposals, which of the two proposals th~ ~overnment itself favours? NR. SPEAKER: ~~E11IER ~!OORES: The hon. the rre~ier. ~1r. Speaker, He have seen tuc proposals - I suppose you coulc call them that - one heing a lett~r of intent as to what the First Arahia~ Corporation would intend to do,

November 16,1978 Tape 5135 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Premier Moores: one being a proposal of which Mr. Shaheen alleges he can do. The obligation in checking the detail of both these out obviously lies with the receiver who was appointed by the courts to do this.Obviously we have a very real interest in it. The first mortgagee,the British Government and the other people who were party to the first mortgage,also have a very defined interest in it. We are not in a position as the second mortgage holder to make a definitive comment at this time on what should or should not be done.

Obviously, before any finalized agreement with any group is done the Government of this Province will make a very definitive position as where we stand and why we take that particular stance at that time. MR. W. N. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. H. N. ROWE: A further supplementary, Sir. A supplementary.

Is it true as one newsman without identifying him, he may be right or he may be wrong, but as one newsman indicated to me earlier today, Sir, is it true that all the parties involved in the Come By Chance refinery, which would include the government, the representative of the creditors, the secured creditors, the unsecured creditors, Kleinwort-Benson and ECGD which guaranteed Kleinwort-Benson, is it true that all of the parties but Kleinwort­ Benson appear to be agreeable to the Shaheen proposal?' Would that approximate the true state of affairs? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker. have not been talking to all of the parties involved. Nor do think all of the parties involved would have the guarantees of any or. both of the proposals or either r.f both of the proposals. I think there is a lot of questions that obviously have to be thoroughly checked out before they can be accepted at face value. think to say that i.t is just Kleinwort-Benson would be very unfair in that Peat, Marwick, Mitchell,as I understand it,~re representing the first mortgagees which include UOP, the First National Bank Of Chicago,Still Ataka,

November 16, 1978 Tape 5135 (Afternoon) Premier t~oores: the Japanese outfit-Kleinwort-Benson represents them and ECGD as well. So anything that they would do on behalf of the first mortgagee I would assume would have the concurrence of all those people who happen to be involved in that first mortgage. MR. ~/. N. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. N. ROWE: One final supplementary, - A supplementary. - then my hon. friend can proceed.

PK - 2 Is there any truth to the information which recently came to my attention that Peat, Marwick apparently will announce from the office of Sterling-Ryan,a law firm in town, at 3:00 o'clock, whose proposal will be accepted? Does the Premier know anything about this? Will this announcement come today? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, that may or may not be the case that an announcement will be made - MR. W. N. ROWE: Does not the government know? PREMIER MOORES: - by the receiver.

Howeve~ that announcement can be one thing, but before any closing or finalization can be I done in any capacity obviously this government will make its position very clearly known. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. W. MCNEIL: A question for the Premier. During the Summer the Premier stated that the mill would be sold and that work would begin at the mill site before Christmas of this year. With the current delays in finalizing its sale with one of the interested companies, does the Premier still expect work to begin at the site in Stephenville this year?

And if so, how many people does he figured will be employed? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, obviously that is the same answer as for the Leader of th~ Opposition. When the details are announced of what we think is the best position for Labrador Linerboard mill

November 16 1978 Tape 5135 (Afternoon) Pk - 3 Premier Moores: obviously at that time part of that will be an employment

schedule and when it will start. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for Port au Port. A supplementary to the hon. the Premier. understand that the provincial Government is now negotiating with DREE for the cost of converting the milL Does the agreement have to be signed before work will start at the mill? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier.

AREMIER MOORES: That is one of the things that obviously is being worked on and certainly that question,, this statement that was· incorporated in it, that the OREE agreement wi 11 be the cost of converting the mill ,• that is totally erronous. However, I do not want to get into the details of it at this time. The DREE presentation, the negotiations with the companies together ~Ji th the government,of course, are a 11 part and parcel of the one thing, and hopefully, Mr. Speaker, we will deal with all those things at the same time as we make the announcement. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary to the Premier, Sir.

It has become public knowledge in the Province this past month or two that the two parties,one of which is most likely to sign the agreement, is either Abitibi, Price or Consolidated Bathrust, and what I would like for the Premier to indicate is whether or not - one can assume if it were Abitibi then there would be no problem with timber limits, there wou•Jid be no problem with timber limits since Abitibi­ Price have all of the timber limits that they require to probably operate three mills in this Province, at least two, but how about if the successful party or the government goes into an agreement'with Consolidated Bathrust, has timber limits;-

::::>ve:;,i.Jer 16. 1973 :::·: - l ~'!F,. FLIGHT: naking a ~o:corl surply available to Consolidatad Bathurst been t:orl:erl cut ;:it:; c;tc t~,-o itolding co::1panies now, Price and Bm-1aters 7 :!P .• SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PRr.HEP, !!CORES: Certainly, l-'r. Speaker, ~ny proposal t!:lat is accepted by the government, one l-lould assume that · thera will be uood available, or we 1-lill indeed have another fiasco in Stephenville liJ-.e He ended up vri.th before. Of course that will be l·rorked out ~nth whoever it is. ~!R. SPEA .. '<ER: 'Al'_. FLIGHT : A supplementary. The point of the question then, :·:r.

Speaker, are there ongoing negotiations ~;i.th Price (r<fld.) and Bowaters, who in effect owns all the timber limits that would be worth considering to sustain an operation like Linerboard~ Are there ongoing negotiations vrith the:n for t:1e transfer of timber lit~i::s to any cocpany who mi11;ht want to. take over Labrador Linerboard7 !!R~ SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PRE:HER ~·~CORES: Hr.

Speaker, in 197l, ·I guess it was, this govenu-uent brought in a land tenure tax regarding pulpwood in this Province, and it is coming into effect notv, whereby in the future that no company whetheor it be Abitibi-Price or 1-Jt1ether it be Bow-aters or vihether it be anybody else uill ever be allowed again to sit on timber ~o;ithout either paying a very heavy ta."< or turning it over for e meaningful use. SO:!E HON. l·::E!'.BERf: :·!P_. FLIGHT: i.ffi. SPEft..KER: ·P..ear, hear! A fi~al supplernentar;. A final sup;>lem::!ntary ther, I t>ill recognize the hon. member for St. John's Hast (Dr.

Kitc:,en) and Baie Verte - \fuite :lay Cfr. Rideout). ;.m. FLIGHT: ~-Jould the Premier care then to indicate to the House of Assembly hm-1 much revenue to titis Provir:ce i1as accrued as a result of t!-l.e tax tnac ;1e inc!icated was put on in 1974 from the ·t\vo paper companies that. are inGeed si:ting en millions of cords of tir.:ber t:.1at '.:ill never ravert to this Provi::lce.

:~ovc:r.:er :6, 19 iS Ta.pe ~1o. 5136 :-r::: - 2 The ho~. the ?remier. I cannot give the exact amount, t:r. Speaker, but I can say that there has been a lot of acreage and a lot of cordage of timber revert to the ?rovince. There are a lot of sal•'lllills in this Province that started up just because of it. SOHE RON. HE::!BEP.S : ~!R. SPEAKER: DR. KITCHEN: Hear, hear! The hon. me1:1ber for St. John's \?est. !1r. Speaker, my question is addressed to t:1e ciinister of Hines and Energy. The most important piece of legislation to go before ;;his hon.

House this session, H!lich by the way 1.;as passed u:l.animously by both ·Sides, stated categorically how the resources of Labrador were to be developed. Now ~1e arc i::tformed that an agreement is to be signed next week betl·reen this government and the Government of Canada, settin?, up some committee or other to develop one of these resouces in a manner 1.;hich appears, from vhat has been said, to be in direct contradiction of th.~t legislation.

Hill the :·:inister assure this House that no agreement ;.;ill be signed by him until its precise terms are first approved ;y this House and that no committee is established until its precise terms of reference have been established by this House. ?W.. SPEAKER: ~·!R. PECK~OP.D: The hon. Hinister of ~lines and Enerey. :.rr. Speaker, the

preamble to the question leaves some erroneous statements on the record books, or :m Hansard. There is a CO!?Oration beinG negotiated betueen the Province and Otta•,•a, not a conunittee, it is a corporation.

As I understand the situation as it relates to the House of Assenbly. and Parli<:.r:1ent ant! the responsibilities of Ca"o:!.net and government, it is t!1at the eovera.OLent :1as a responsibility to goverh an·-: to en't,~r i::~to agreerr.ents of one sort and another for the ·best interest of the Provi::~ce ,~nd that tJ-.e tdnister concerned anci the .8o~·ernoent concerr:.ed will be held responsible by parliament, and t:1en and only. t;1en really do t!Jese agree~e:1ts get fully oirec!, critici::ed, assessed

Tape Xo. 5136 ... ·: - 3 '·8.. PECK:ORD: and so on. :iegotiations be tHe en Energy, :·!ines and Resources in OttaHa, bct1•een :le•.-;foundland and LRhrador Hydro officials, people of the De?artrnent of ili~es a~c Energy ."lre ongoing right n01-1 to try to finalize an 2.greer.~ent ,,·:t!ch 1-10uld see the establishment of a corporation ~'hich would have a certain r::andate.

That it is the intention o~ government to l'r<:'ceed t:) sign such an ag:reement, .. given that the terms and conditions are Hh:~t He •rant them to be, and that in due course it is the lnten!::!.cn of zovernnent to present to tl1i!l House tl1."?.t .:lf:J:eement so that :ilenbers of the Opposition, r.:er,,bers of this side of the House, Hill nave an opportu:::dty to discuss, debate and c~iticl=e constructively or destructively terms and conditions containe~ tterein.

~oveob~~ lG. 1973 7ape 51.17 r.c .. 1 :!.!::..:__~JI~~E~: A sup:;:>le,._entary, the hon. the nenber for Ea;le River. ~!E-...:__S7RACI:.\cl: .:·!r.

Speaker, in vie• .. , of the ~inister's recent statements that Gull Island ~ossibly was not the main hydro project which should be considered in Labrador, that possibly that should be left down the pipeline so~ewhere .. down the road a number of years, although we have heard that the la5t three years - it has been on an off, on and off, and the people of the Happy Valley - ~oose Bay area who rely on it very much are at one time lifted and the ne:-:t day let c!otm ·· but regardless of this, could the minister then indicate to us how this comes in relation with the :fuskrat Falls development which he has spoken of recently as possibly the on~ which maybe should g6 ahead first and that Gull Island should be left down the pipeline as I stated? ~1!t .

SPEAKER : and ;::nergy. !·lR. PEC:(FOilD: The han. the Minister of Hines t!r. Speaker, we are as concerneu as the bon. member about uplifting or lettin3 down the hopes and aspirations of the people of Happy Valley - Goose Bay, Labrador and of the Province, number one· number two, there are various alternatives for the development of Labrador power. One is to go ahead with the Gull Island project, another is to RO ahead with the Muskrat Falls project, another is to go ahead with extensions to the Upper Churchill project.

The agreement for _the corporation that we are now negotiating would have a mandate to try to assess, and do nothing else but assess, Labrador power developments, it.cluding Gull Island, including 'lus!:rat. Wh~t the preference will ~e given six months fran now, whether it will be Gull Island, t~hether it will be :!usl:rat, whether it will be other iivers, whether it will be Lobstick, remains to be seen. 7hcre are a nunber of alternatives.

·:over:tber lG, 1S'70 And as thin~s chan~e in Ottawa, as t!"tings chan:;e in the Atlantic Provinces, '.!.:Jrious alternatives beco~c core attractive, so that therefore, from one point in time to another ?Oint in time, the alternatives change.

And all that I have been tryinG to do is to point out that there are alternatives and it is not a question of Gull Island, it is not a question of :!uskrat, it is a question of a nunber of alternatives for developing Labrador power, and there are many. and at any given point in time we nust decide on which is the most attractive tvith all ti1e evidence we !tave at our disposal at that point in time. This will be the job of the ne" corporation, to recommend to government the best alternative at that point in time, hopefully in 197'). I·1R. STRACHA:·l: ,, final supplementary, :·rr. Speaker. :rR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Eagle River. :·1R. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, one of the alternatives that we have sugeested for many, many years is the alterngtive which seems to receive acceptance as a motherhood statement but never in practice seems to be carried out, that is tryin~ to tie in, not Labrador pover as Labrador power, but surely !..abrader poHer as a means of marrying the rest of Labrador's resources to it.

Could the minister indicate to us whether there is ~oing to be serious consideration given to that alternative so that we are not talkin3 of power as an export but we are talking of power as 3 means of developing Labrador rather'than the situation which seems to be the present and current thought of recall do•m the road or e~port to Quebec Hydro or something else? I am specifically marrying the nining resources o;.1itil electrical power. :m. SPEAKE~: The hon. the :linister of :Hnes and f.:ter:?:;Y.

~ovcmt~r 16, 197S cape 51J7 ~'C - 3 ' '!P-. PEC:.:fC'I.D: . ·-··---- -·-·-·· :1:-. Speak~r. I .:tm very !1.1.ppy t!'::lt the bon. the r:le:ober for Fn::;lc ?.i,rer ('·lr. Strachan) has asked that sup?lementary, because I am pleased to reiterate government's policy as it relates tc T.n!.:-ador power development which is to link it with resource development in Labrador and for the Province. ~-!1 t h this new corporation, part of its mandate will be that.

In talking about the mineral resources and expansion of Labrador City or Wabush, the uranium with other forestry developments there, I think it is possible to link it to an industrial strategy and I think this is the only ¥ay that Labrador power development will occur.

I think that past performance has taught us a very valuable lesson, that export is not really the answer to our illR, it is to use our power as a lever for industrial development for creating jobs as we are now trying to do at Labrador linerhoard, as we are now doing at Hinds Lake, and which we will continue to do for the benefit of all the citizens of the Province. SOHE RON. HEt!BERS: Hear, hear: ~!!'.. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for ---------- Baie Verte - White Bay. ~!R. RIDEOUT: Mr. Soeaker, my question is for the :·!inister of Labour and ?lanpoHer.

Sir . sone five or six months ago, this Rouse passed the Occupational Health and Safety bill, one of the most important pieces of legislation, I would su~gest, passed by the House in the last session, and with that passage, Sir. by the House, there were time commitments for scttins up an Occupational Healt~ and Safety

Tape :;o. 5138 ~·:t. ?.IDEOt:7: Branch for <1:.-md:::g up healti~ and saf.:~:,· rc:gulaticr:s and so en u.-.uer that bill. ;.:ould the minister tell the Eo usc ''hy this bill to dat~,I ur.cierstand,has not yet been proclaimed and tilerefore is not yet the la~r of the b.r.C.. The hoi' .. clir.ist.;,.r of LalJour :md :ianpcwer. l!R. HOUSE: There has been a lot of ••ork going on on that particular thing.

The regulations being put in place for t::101 last tl1rec or four months and I thi!l!.; it uas a little bit unrealistic for us to think that the regulations covering that ac·t could be put into place .in that l::mgth of time, I think ti1e time fra:ne should have been a :ittle longer,but as it sta!lds no;; all the components apart from I1ines and Energy, c.re operating under the Department of ~~npower and under the old regulations, The new regulations have been dr.:~fted c.nd they have to go through the Advisory Connnittee and then through Cabinet.

No;~ I cannot give a time fr.:une,~Jhen it will be proclaiwed, but tl1ere has been action going on ever since the bill has been passed. :iR. RIDEOUT: ~fR. SPf...'J:<.El: YR. RIDEOUT: A supplemen~ary, A supplementary. "~ L-- • Speaker. l!r. Speaker, with E'll due respect to t:1e ministe·r, I rem-:mber during debate on th.:~t bill that there had already been prelii:linary meetings ,.;ith col!lpanies and unions and so on, that the regulatio!ls had bee!l in the draft stage then, so I \·:ould have thought t:tat •!e Here beyond t:,at by no;.;. :m~~ay, ~tr.

Speaker, as a supple!!!entary, can the minister tell the House •.;-he i:her or not the neH Occupational Health anc.i Safety Branch has now been fully and properly orf,anized? Hhether or not the transfer of responsibilities from, for cxn;nple, tl~e .·

Tape Xo. 513.3 NH - 2 : :P.. ?.IDE0UT: ~·:orbnen 's Com?ens;t tion Board, tlte \~ines I:1.spection Braac~ of the Department of ~!ines and Enerzy, the Labour Standards Division a~C.d so on, whet;1er all this has yet taY.en place and bean ~assed over and properly placed under this netJ Occupational Health and Safety Branch? :·!R. SPEAKER: UR. HOUSE: The hon. :-anister of Labour and !·:anpower. As I mentioned, it is in t:1e process, all but :·!ines and Energy are 11orking from under the Department of Labour anci 1~anpo1-1er. We.

Hill not be able to proclaim the act fully until 1.;e get the ragu:i.a~ions passed, .<.s I said, I cio r.ot !mo~< the time frame from that but hopefully - ~·ie do have to go back to the Advisory Committee to look at the final draft that the department has prepared and it has to go throug:1 Cabinet, ancl I canaot put a ti:ne frame on IJhen the thing will be put in place. c·~.. RIDE'lUT : ~!R •. SPEAKER: ~.!R. RIDEOUT: A final supplemente.ry, r:r. Speaker. Pinal supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, I had intended to ask this supplementary to the Hinister of the Environment but I am sure the l1inister of Labour and l1anpo;ver is just as concerned Fith it because it will now fall under his responsibility as the minister responsit.le for the Occupation.1l Health and Safety Branch.

Could the l·tinister of Labour ar.d }:anpotver tell the House tvhether or not :1is dcr.artment !1ave agreed to ask, or agreed to permit, Hhethcr or not the ~o .. enunent have agreed to ask or agreed to permit experts from the Federal Department of Envirorument, or for th~t T-atter frc~ any othc~ organization or group, to carry out an independent, an impP.:-tial expert analysis of the current dust ~roblems being experienced at the IOCC operation in Labrado~ City? ::R. SPEAY..ER: The hon. !lin is ter o'f Labour and !'!anpo;.;e r. '·~? .. HOUSE: i'!r. Speo.ker, it has not from this de?artment. The.

IT'ini:::g branch is still operated 'under mining and the environment does :10t come· under the division. I ~•ave re~d L1 :he ~.:'..?Cr the :ast :·.·To or c~tr~e <lay:; al:,out tLe correspondence that is

suppose~ to ~e ~ac~ and forth. But our dcparti"".ent is not invol•Ted at this date. :·!R. SPEAKE?.: The hen, Leader of the Opposition, followed by the hen. nember for Conception Bay South (Hr. Nolan). :a. W. ROI-.'E: Sir, I would like to direct a question to t!J.e hen. t'1e Premier. Xr.· S?~aker, is it true~ as I have just been infomed, that Peat ~!arwick have announced that the First Arabian Corporation has been given the nod as far as they are concerned to the proposa:i they have made to take' over t:<e Cocie By Chance refinery? HP.. SPEAKE?.: The hen. the Premier. PP-ill!IER NOO"-ES: Hr.

Speaker, I just got a copy of t:-,e a.•nouncement "';,·self about five minutes ago, which I assume the Leader of the Opposition did. The fact is that ~•e ~.;ere a~•are that the dealine ~Vas today for the receiver. It was their decision to l:lake. I might point out in the release t1-10 things stand out very clearly, and it says here without going throuer the details of it' after tile execution of t:u~ contract c f sale' approval of the sale ,.,ill· be sought from t!~e Foreign Investment Review Agency and the Supreme Court of Newfoundland.

And I" would suggest t:1at by the time it co:.1es ::.efore the Supreme Cour:: of Newfoundland any alternate position that could be more be:-.eficia: ~,11: be ;:>Ut fon;arc~. But also·, Sir, that if t!lere is an alternate propo-sal ,;hich is better, and I am not saying there is, but if there is, obvio;.1sly, wnoever is going to take over the refinery ~•ill 1-1ant the full co-operation of the government and certainly they 1vi1l only get t!J.e co-operation of the government if the proposal is ir. the best interest of this Province.

I 1-rould go further and say­ in their last part of their announcement it says, '~funy detail~ of a c•)ntemplated transaction are yet to be finalized." Anc1 I suggest, Sir, that t:"1<.t is pro'.:lably the :.mderstu.tement ir. ~~e s'=atement.

1~7S 5138 ..... _ :2. S?EA~FR: A supplementary. . c:·.. H. ?.0'.-IE: Aside from the govcment's intcr<:st as second mor::gagecs, c·!r. Speal~er, do I untiEorstancl thac the government of this ?rovince, the Government of ~:eufoundland and Labrador, have only noH been infor::~ed by Peat '!ar:dd:

November 16, 1978 Tape 5139 (Night) PK - 1 ~1r. W. N . Rowe: that they are favouring the first Arabian corporation? Am led to understand that they 1vere not consulted, all the way along, not necessarily as a second mortgagee, although that is important enough there are millions, tens of millions of dollars involved thereJ but as the government of this Province? Fere they consulted before , perhaps, the irrevocable step has been taken of favouring first Arabian. Now I do not know what the two proposals where like, Sir.

But the step of going before the Supreme Court and before FIRA I would say would be fairly simple · compared to getting Peat, Marwick's approval of this proposal in the first place, since obviously their opinion in the matter would have a great deal of weight before either body, and I do not see FIRA objecting to it at all. But, Mr. Speaker, is this true that the government has not been consulted all the way along by Peat, Marwick and ariyone else who has approval to give? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The answer is yes, Mr.

Speaker, the government. has been consulted by Peat, Marwick, and many other people with .multitudinousness attitudes, I might say, We have had a great deal of consultations, proposals, propositions, promises, pledges, and just about anything else anyone can think of regarding the particular Come By Chance refinery. I might say it is the first time we have been officially concerned because I would suggest that with this announcement that is the first official notification that anyone could have had.

However.as I pointed out the fact that the receiver has made this position, that is the receivers responsibility, then his and his alone while representing the first mortgage said and I will say again , Sir, unequivocally, is before the Newfoundland Government will agree with any finalization of any contract w~ will ensure that it is in the best interest of this Province before that is done. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

November 16, 1978 Tape 5139 (Afternoon) MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Bellevue. had stated that I would recognize next the hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, is it a fair assumption to assume that if the receivers are favouring-.·the first Arabian Corporation, does this necessarily exclude John Shaheen on his proposal? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Prenii'er. PK - 2 PREMIER MOORES: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker, and that I would suggest is probably one of the things that will develop but it would not be an assumption on my part, it would be very presumptuous on my

part if I took any position on it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: A question for the Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker. In view of the most recent publicity and so on in the press concerning the state of justice in the Province, I am talking about assault, vandalism, holdups and so on, does the minister have any plans for additional police to administer justice in this Province, extra equipment, surveillance and so on? l4hat is the current position -of the minister or does he feel that_it does not warrant extra protection for the public? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice.

MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am very conscious indeed of the policing requirements of the Province of Newfoundland. In Newfoundland today we have- in the city of St. John's we have 220.approximately, police officers, members of the-Newfoundland Constabulary which I am told not only compares favourably but is probably the best population police ratio of any Canadian city. ·We also have in excess of 700 Royal Canadian Mounted Police and people attached to it bringing to a total of close to 1,000 police officers in the Province of Newfoundland.

This government has a new philosophy that is new to Newfoundland with respect to the administration of justice. This government's philosophy as is evidenced by the recent budget - and if the. hon. gentleman opposite would some day find his ~tay out to Fort Townsend he will see under construction out there the finest police

November 16, 1978 MR. HICKMAN: headquarters in Canada- Tape 5139 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! IB-3 MR. HICKMAN: -·while wi 11 be beyond a 11 reasonab 1 e doubt the best equipped policeheadquarters in this nation and I have no hesitancy in saying that under the 1 eadership of Chief of Po 1 ice, John Bro~m; we have a very efficient police force in St.

John's today. cannot comment nor will I comment on matters that are before the court but I will say this, that a statistic that was released last week showing the high number of apprehensions by the police of people in the act of committing the offense of.break and entry is without precedent in North America. That is what our police are doing. Now I would not wish anyone to believe or think for a moment that I am not conscious nor the Newfoundland Constabulary,of the needs to increase vigilance in this city. That is why we are removing more - the han. gentleman-

;·:.: ·- 1 . · .• 'liC:::'~A~:: ------ cffice rs frc.rn non-police functions. ORDERS OF TP.E DAY ?n motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the l-lhole on supply. :~r. Speaker left the ':hair. cIT'.. CHAIPj.I.A;] : Order please! Bill 51\. ;!otion 7. Adjourned the c'.ebate on motion 7 t.:hich ·is Eill i;o. 56 1 the Loan :Sill. Hr.

Chairman, for a very good and valid reason I was not in the !louse on the even:l.ng of this debate "hile this ;,in o7as being discussed and considered. 1:y hon. members but nay I~on behalf of my Ylife and I - I have read Hansarcl. - thank all hon. members for their kind felicitations at that time. It 1~as rather a good evening may I add. Hr. Chairman, my hon. colleague, the :•inister of :·ines and Energy - r':R. srn.-~Olls: ;•::1. HICK~ tAN: :P... lUCK!rA:;: Thank you Your 25th anniversary, was it not?

That is correct - in introducing - Belated congratulations! - in·introducing this Bill- and I haYe revic1·•e•l the cot:IIilents made by the hon. ~ember for llurgeo-:!lay d 'Espoir (l·!r. Simmons) and the hon. member for St. John's Hest (Dr. Kitchen) an·:! t:te :1on. the Leader of the Opposition - The hon. the ~"inister of :··:ines and Energy set forth the same information which had alrearly been disclosed to this hon. !'ouse and to this Committee during the consideration of the T::stimates_ and during the consideraticm of the lludget. .

This l3ill,•7hich is the sane as the bill ·that came before the House last yee.r and before Commit-tee, seeks approval to enable the rrov.i.nce to borrm·J ~150 ,0 11 0,000 during this fiscal year or until. tile ~ill is replaced by a £u~;.;e~uent hill. :\s ~-.on. fentlemen are

T~pe 5llo'l .·.J •• t:ICK'l\.::: a1•are unc'.er tl!e p)~ovisior.s of our legislation c;:ere rr.ust, in each fiscal year, be brought before the Eouse a ':Jill seel:i.ng the Ilouse' s approval for the borroHing.

It does not necessarily r.1ean that the Province has to borr01• all of that r.1oney nor does it mean that lvhen the bill comes for the next year if coney has not been 1-Jorrotvl'!rl and there is still authorization under that bill that you adcl. to it. rlext year, if this House sees fit to pass the Loan Rill if t'1ere is still money left unborro•.red under this authorization, the passing of the ne:~t bill automatically re";eals the old.

Fortunately for this Province in this calendar year there lvas still authorization left for us to borr01v $50,000,000 in order to meet some of the capital account expenditures of the Province. Ail RON • l:T.! ~ER: A very foresighted predecessor. And tr.is loas due totally and absolutely to the foresightedness and the ability and the business acumen of my predecessor in office, the noH hon. Hinister of Inclustri11l !:'evelo::>ment, the hon. member for Farbour llain-Rell Island G·!r. Doody). AN HO~T. }:B-IDER: l!R. HICKHA!:: !Cear,hear!

On behalf of all the peo!Jle of ~le••foundland and on behalf of the staff in the financial community, I :hank the hon. gentleman for the leadershiP. that I am so inadequately t::::ing to follow.

::ove~ber 16. 19 78 T:tpc 5141 ::c - l ur .. s r:~::o;;s: E c .. 1 i d n c t · .. : r i t e t :! a t v c 1 y :.:0 11 or you are reading it very :~~ly. :w .. IIICK:·IA:;: Ehat is that? :-!R. DOODY: I will have to get a new author. :-lR. HICK:·IAN: That was not in this note I had here.

In any event, Mr.Chairman, may I say that that European bond issue, that $50 million which I announced to the House on the date of the borrowing which took place on May 9, 1178,was the most successful bond issue of any Canadian gbvernmental authority, provincial or municipal in the European Euro-dollar market, certainly up to the time that that loan was made. And I would be very surprised if any have been successful since. On May 9th the Province's loan of $50 ~illion U.S. at 9-1/4 per cent was priced at par plus 1/2 per cent which reduced or fixed the effective yield at 3.93 per cent on a semi-ann~al basis.

And if anyone feels that the credit of this Province is· not viewed with a great deal of approbation by the international financia: community, one should bear in minu the significance of that, the significance of the astounding success that we had in the Euro-dollar market this year. What, Mr. Chairman, does 9-1/4 per cent at par plus 1/2 yield mean?

What it means is this, that if we have a ~100 ~ewfoundland bond for sale in [urope that the purchasers are pre~ared to pay us SlOO.SO in order to buy one of our bonds, and the result of that is that this reduced the actual interest cost to the Province of ~ewfoundland of 8.98 per cent on a semi-annual basis. I thin!:, !:r.

Chairnan, that t,•e should note that at the same time that the Province of olcv;foundland tvas in that Euro-dollar 1•.arket, that Ontario Hydro and Canadair were in there, and Canadair's issue was ~uaranteed by the Government of Canada, and they both fell in yalue by three ~oints below the issu~ price an~

··cve::ihcr 16. 1973 r:r.: - 2 "!ewfoun~land's ~e~t up 1/2 perce~ta~e point. The b~st advice that we have been able to receive fron our fiscal aeents irt Europe, A. E. Aimes and Company, and t.c.~., ~hich is a laree ~anking conglomerate - nothing to do with the other political party in this Province - t~e great banking conclomerate in Paris with headquarters - Credit Commeicial de France - is that the ~ewfoundland Euro-bond issue was certainly up to that time the best issue for 1978 and showed beyond any shadow of a doubt strong ciarket support in the acceptance of the ~ewfoundland credit. ~ow.~r.

Chairman, one of the questions asked in Committee when this matter was being debated on i:!te e·;e:Ll.nr, of July 4, 1'?78, '"as ''Ho..,.· will this noney be spent?" - the nonies that the Province has to borrow and that i~ a very legitimate qusstion. and I can bore this Committee if the Committee insists on coing through the estimates which set forth very clearly indeed in absolute and finite detail the manner in which the monies must be spent on capital account.

I repeat what I said earlier today that I believe every ~Lnister of Finance in Canada. and I suspect.most Canadians are looking tovard toni~ht ~ith some apprehension, and I am not sayin~ this in ~ critical sense of the federal Minister of finance. facin~ hin now. in my opinion, the most awesome job that has faced a :iinister of Ftnance in Canada since /!orld '·Jar I. ~e is faced wit\ Cha insatiable demands of the Canadian people. He is also faced with the dan~er of a runaway inflation, and all of that is based upon a productivity.

. '" 1' I c:-:: :::. :·; : in Canarl~1 tl1ot does not co~rare favoura~ly with the United States of A~erica nor does it compare favour3bly with West Germany and .J~pan and s~itzcrland 1 where .you ,find particularly in these areas such strong currencies. nn the one hand he is bein1 told ··you must bring in a balanced budget - you must cut out the whopping deficit that the government of Canada has incurred this year because that contributes probably more than 4nythinR else toward inflation - and on the other hahd he has the benefit of advice that may not be based on true economic perspective that he must continue to spend money to create zore jobs, knowing that if he does he cr~ates an i~crease in the inflation spiral, knowing that he drives up the cost of living and knowing that he crucifies those on fixed incones and on ?ensions.

Ee is goin~ to need the wisdom of Solomon, in ny opinion, to find an answer. The concern of this Province. and the concern of Atlantic Canada. is that we may once a~ain suffer as a result of ~olicies that are national in their i!.<pact. The Province of ~ewfoundland does not contribute in any meaningful way to the inflationary spiral in this nation. Five hundred thousand people's contribution ic not really going to change the inflationary spiral in any respect. We are not overheating the economy. The econou.y is be inn. uv~~heated, I •·:ould susi}ect, ~~r. C!--tairman ~ ir.

Ontario and Alberta and Quebec and 0ritisl: Columbia .:11~d now in that very wealthy province of Saskatchewan which has gone ahead now as far as une~ployneut is concerned. It now has the lowest in Canada. And I 1.ave no doubt ~:-:at the ·' ::t~ister of Finance ir. consultation with his colleasues will have to put the brakes on: but we have had a glinmerinz publicly that we may pay the price as well.

. , J.C, r:··- ~ •1 .•• ·"·. :ore::::.\:·:. ;.tttention of this Committee a sta.temcnt chat toas :-1ade recently by the government of Canada which has very severe overtones for this Province, and I refer to t!-le announcc!':!ent t~at it is the intention of the government of Canada to ask Parliament to repeal the Public Utilities Transfer Tax Act, known in financial parlance as PUTA.

That act was passed about thirty years ago, and when it was enacted by Parliament it provided that so~ of all of the taxes collected fro~ private utilities in a province would he returned to that province, because some provinces had nationalized their utilities and they were not taxable. I 11ill not say it "'·:s a condition precedent of the Churchill Falls development. but certainly it was a very influencing factor that the governtr.ent of the day \vent to the then :1 inister of finance and, I think- I was going to say the hon.

Robert Winters, now.he was president of BRI~CO at that tine and he carried out the negotil\tions .. and they convinced the govern:!lent of Canada that it was necessary i~ order to get that project going, plus t!-lc fact that we have private utility companies well ~anaged and doing a ~cod job, that this be ihcrcased. And we were ~iven a firm assurance that this would b~ done in effect in perpetuity if legislat~on can be regarded as bein3 le~islation in perpetuity.

In the mid sixttes, '65 I think it w3s, the act was Amended to provide ~or the return to the province~ of 95% of all income tax and/or corporate tax, rather, collected from private utilities operated in this Province. Now since that time Churchill Falls has fallen into the cate~ory - the definition of a Crown corporation, but we still have newfoundland L~~ht and ~ower: we still have Bowaters Light cnrryin~ on the bu~iness of private utility conpanies in this Province. If t~at act is re~ealcd

~0venber 16, 1973 cw - 1 \·m::.cn is tte announced intention and »olicy of the Government of Canada, the cost to the taxpayers of Kevfoundland has b~en estinated between a r.~inimum of $6,000',000. and probably a rn~~im~ of $7,000.000. per anum to this province. There were many Newfoundlanders,Xr. Chairman, became very excited~ · and probably Hith just cause,over what they considered to be a breach of .oral c:ontract,not written,toward Ne•vfoundland on the part of the then government of Canada under Term 29.

Term 29 pales i:1to insignificance compared to the v::~lidity of thi.s legislative con- tr:tctual relationship entered into bel:'.:elm the Government of Canada and the government of th:'.s province_.

The :·~nister of Finance has show~ some sympathy for our plight but he points out publicly that t~e province of Alberta is the greatest bene'ficiary of this leg;is:!.ation because they have private utility companies in t:v!ir provinc~ and obviously the province of Alb.;rta~ldth its whopping 'big surpius'es and vi th its Heritage Fund can certainly con­ " tribute towards putting the brakes on th~ inflationary spiral in this nation by doing ••i thout their PUTA payments.

T!,at is t-lhat brings me bact to the.,- and I only ••ani: to take a couple of :ninutes of the Coramittee on this becnuse .!.t is so vital to t:1e financial position of this :>rovince - this is '·!hat brinr,s. rr.e \;ack to my fi;:st !':tatenent t:1at I ;::m co!lcern~d th.:o.t this province may once egain- and Atlantic Canada~but this province in ~articular- ~et caught up in the ;queeze of national ~olicics t:tn<: a~·:; t!csirped to fight it:flation and hop>:!fully inprovc the ccono':ny of t!'le nation ..

I would llope tha.t it is not teycn~ the w-1. t of men, the ;;it of parlia:::entarians in Ottawa, ar:d I would :tepa it is not beyond the Hit of the Govarnnent of Canatla~~o fin-:! a formula t·!herel>y lletdoundland need not i:le punis!,cd for t:;~ prosrer:.c:' of 1\lberta. 1-:e i1ave no qualms about their prosparity, ~~·~ enV': Al·~Je£:'ta for their prosperity, but may I sa?, :!r. C":1air.:1au., t~at ~·1e ~;auld find it kind of ~.2rd :o ta!~e if ,because of t:1a::, t:1is

'~o.~e ~·To. 514 3 m:.::::!: to t:te_ provir.ce of )Te~·.rfour..dla·ad is brol::en. I have ple.:!.cied ~!i~h ~-!r. Chreteien, I knol·! his sympathy is there~ but 1;het~.1er he is 6oing to fincl a fonaula I do not:~nO\I~but I tolcl him that this is ::me i::ew ti1at tl:e emotions of the l'eople of l'ie~;found:an..:! ·will not let us l'ass over Ul1COntested and broug~ot to t:1c attention of all Canadians.

T::at is the most serious one,but the total package of constraints and restraints and cutbacks that 11ere indicatec at the recent Federal­ Provincial ilinisters of Finance and announced IJUblicly by the Federal c'oinister Hill cost this province considerably more than that, A changing around in that equalization formula, ~7hicn is near and dear to t:1e :1earts of everyone in this province, t<hicll at ::>e First :an is ters Conference >.'as agreed it should be en ::::enched in the constitution, that is cause for a.."1Xicty.

Cutting back on health insurance, health care, cost-shared plans, \\"':lich uere not i:-titiated. by the people of Ne"foundland but which cai!le from Ottm;a as a re­ sult of the Hall Collll'1ission and which the previous gover:-.::e·;l.t 1-1ere apprehensive of or 1vould have had some insurance that it v!aS there forever, as much of an insurance as you can get bearing in mind the clu1nges that take place in the political are::.r, from time to time 1 there things are being cut back and whittled do"ll and every tine that happP.ns the :;overruaent of t!1e province is going to be faced with trying to nake up these lost but essential programs, and t:1ere comes a time ''hen 500,000 people say: "He just cannot ?a:' for any nor~." If C :mfederation means anything, if equalization means anything,and if the Department of ~egional Economic Expansion is dedicated, as r am sure it is, to the eradication of regional desparity,t;1en there times in our history Hhen we are e'Cltitled

ilovc~.ber 15. 1973 af C:ar.adians to say "Find a solution to your probl.ens but do nc>t crucify us in the attemryt''. ?-lot<, i·lr. Chairnan, I Hill try and answer any other questions that will be raised by hon. ~entlemen opposite in this Committee, but I felt it oblisatory to draw to the attention of this Committee, and to the people of Jewfoundland, that I believe that we will ~e called upon as Canadians to tiohten our belt. I hope t<e will not have to tighten it as tight as the fat people of Alb.:rta. :ra. C!iAIR~!Ai~: Joes thi resolution carry? 1on. menber for Bur~eo-Day d-Es?oir. 1!r.

Chairman, first of all it being my first opportunity it is almost like a new session in view of the lapsa of time since we were last here - that famous night o~ the 4th of July - being so long since then I just want to offer my con[',ratulations to the net.• ?!inister of Rural Development, the menber ::or Naskaupi (Vr.J.Goudie) and wish him well in his Cabinet •ssignment. ~o matter what our politics, we always like to see capable people appointed to positions of responsibility in the Province and I am glad for the member from :·Taskaupi that he finds hittself in a position where he can, I hope, effect some decisions an beh~lf of the people ·of rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

The Hinister of Finance a moment ar.o nade some references to the national. situation which, I suppose it can he construed, has some bearing on this particular hill. ~, r. EI.CJC·~J\N :. (Jnaudihle) ''ery preliminary ~·hat I have to sav, I a refere nce· to the fact that the minister just made was just making · i 1 it tion which, I und~rs tand·, he so1':1.e comments on t':le nat ona s ua submits r:an be construed as being relatec to the h5.ll, and so Fi th that understanding I •,Jill exercise the same ).icence

Tnrc 514ft GI"· 2 h,e Jid :)ecausc I just uant to ~a~e a c0moent on the situation too. I think it is a matter of concern to everybody in this Province, and perhaps evcryhody in ~tlantic Canada that we have, we in Atlantic Canada, such an abysmal record when it comes to having an impact on any national financial decisions or national economic decisions. It is frightful. It is hurting us to a deiree that we oay not be able to recover from. I am referring to tariff decisions which are mace to affect central Canada and to the - I say affect possibly central Canada - and at the same time to affect us adve"rsely.

I am not suggestin3 that is deliberate but that is the effect of it. These decisions - and again we will see soce more of them tonight - the minister said just about ·!!.S much·· h·~ e::;nessed his appre- hension about what would happen toni~h:. I believe l·:e will see some more things tonight in the nane of restraint. It may well be 3ood for Ontario and good for Quehec. I do not think i~ is particular~~ ~ood for us here in ;]ewfoundlan<.l. I am not sure, Mr. Chairman, that the situation ~ould be very different were the P.C.'s or the ~.D.P.'s or the Liberals in power as the case may be in Ot talia.

I think what they are fightin~ is somethin~ lar~er than partisan politics. You are fishting an attitude al,out Canada. You are fichtin~ a~ attitude on the part of people who live in fairly lar~c urbnn areas who arc very removed from the scene here in ~ewfoundland. for example, and who operate on the thesi& thnt what is ~ood for Toronto has ~ot to he 2oorl for McCalluc in ny district. and that necessarily is not the case. So, no ~atter whnt party you are 30in~ to have in power in ~tt3wa, you are 80inz to face this saQe problec.

I do not believe you are. ~cing- to chan;:e it in a I'art:!..r.~:·t t.;ay by puttin:j one ~rou!' in or the other ~rour in. As a natter of fact, I des~nir

as to ~heth~r you can chnn~e it stall given the present facts of li~c,· the relatively s~all numbers of people that live in Atlaniic Canada. Rut if there is a way to change it, or to begin changinG it;

r.J'-·1 it is throu~~ the constitution~l rou~~- ~nd in that re~rect I w~s particularly d!sRpnointed that.in watching the soin~s-on at the constitutional conference. it seened to me that nobody, either the ~re~ier of thds ~rovince 1 or any other premierqfor that matter,of the less affluent provinces, advocated a ~tructure in the Senate which would somewhat parallel the American situation in that the various political jurisdictions - the ten prdvinces and the territories - would be given representation base~ on being a political en~ity rather than based on population: because. what we have now, apart fro~ the obvious weaknesses of an appointed Senate rather than ar. elected one and that is good· for an all··day debace, but apart from that. what we ~ave are, if you ignoxe the fact that one is elected and the other is appointed, if you ignore that, what you have are two bedias whic~ a~e constituted in much the sa~e way, or at least with the same criteria, namely, that if they come from a large province there is a lot of them, if they come from a small province there is a few of them.

In other 1~ords, N-ewfoundland gets seven senators and seven members by virtue of its population. :here is another ridar t~cre too, of course, that they cannot have less than seven, but we will not get into the details. The fact is that 0ur representation in the Senate is Jetermined by our sparse population and nothing else. Uow, in the American systen they ha~e,as you know, two senators from each of the states no matter what the population of those states is.

The effect, of course, is that the Senate can exercise ·a very weighty influence on behalf of geograrhic areas or particular interest groups no matter what their aggregate population may be.

whereas in our case here whethe~ the representatives from Atlantic Canada in the Uouse of Commons or in the S2nate get to~ether, it a~ounts to the same thing in terns of their

~:ovembe!" 16, 197:3 relative t:eigl1t or. ·the overall voting pa-ttern of that char.ber and, t~1crefore, on c;,e decision· ~aking process of covernment. ~nd I would like to hear, per~aps Ero;~ the :·!inister of Finance, perhaps 1dth his other hat on as ~inister of Justice, whether this catter has been explored at the constitutional conferences, whether it is possible - and perhaps, you know, perhaps we are dreaming out loud - perhaps the large provinces t~ve us so completely by the jugular now that they would never agree to that kind of thing, but short of a weightirg - a ~ei~htin~ - 'w e i g h t i n g' - short of a weighting~ short of some mechanisc whereby the clout of the large provinces, the provinces with large populations, can be offset by some kind of a geographic weighting - if we may call it such - such as they are able to effect through the senate syste~ in the United St~tcs -and I just use that as an example - I am sure any debate of the merits of the various systems would expose a number of weaknesses in the An~rican systec.

I am not here today just advocating we ecbrace before we know what it is we are embracing. I am not saying that at all.

I an just zeroing in on one particular featur~ ~f that syster.~, namely the abilit~· of the American Senate by virtue of its make-up to bring to decision-making a, w~at I will call a geographical wei~ht a ~eir~t ·- I ~o nat ~~ow the populations of the various Anerican states, bu~ 7ick sone nf the s~all ones like Connecticut and Rhode Island and some of the southern states which have snall ~o~ulations and add them all tozether and you can find four or five states with less than the population of Mew Yo~k or ~~lifornia, hat in the senate these five states will have ten votes and California will have two votes in the senate although the state of California will have the same population as those five states ~ut together, and that is what I an talting about - tha~ if Ye are ~oin~ to h~ve financial and econo~ic

Tape 5145 r.!!- 3 decisions at the nationnl level which are 1oin~ to reflect the particular req11irements of the econoRl in Atlantic Canada. if we are ~oin~ to hav~ that kind of decision-mating. we are gain~ to ~et it only at such ti~e as we have built into the constitutional MechanisMs some way of effecting decisions

'i:ape ::o. Sll.:i n-1 ~•hich are geo~raphically weighted so that the four Atlantic provinces, for example, can go in 1dth, if you use the ~ .. r.:erican system, t~.;o votes e.:Jch. He would probably !leed nore than ~ couple of senators per province but, just to make the example, if the four Atlantic provinces Hould go in ~lith ti>O votes each they have eight votes in the Senate compared to four for Ontario and Quebec. If you had that kind of a situation you would have an effective secon~ check 1¥hich you do not have noH. As you knoi·T, the Senate is 'organized along partisan lines.

I have already pointed ant that the s~nate is constituted 1-1it:1 relation to populations of variou!l provinces a!ld so, the real second check that the American s~·stem provides is conp~_etely . ahsent in Canada and I·Te are the losers. And that is r.ty point and that is 1-1hy I raise it and pursue it. The minister raised it earlier really.

I pursue it because our lack of clout, our lac!~ of it";lpact on national and economic decisions is not so much a factor of the partisan stripe of the particular government; indeed, many of us can recall t·Jhen the goverr.ment ~¥as of another stripe in· 1'157-152 1-1hen !.·!r. );iefenbaker 1-1as the prime minister and we had the same kinds of compl<tints. And a13ain, I am not 1-1anting to make this a partisan cor.nnent at this particular time.

I am just Hanting to point out that I do not :,~~.ieve it ?articularly matters 1-1hether the Tories are in pm-~er or the Liberals are in p01•er in Ottav;a; the people in power are the same people all the time, the centralists. ·The centralists are in pOI<er and that is ul-tat ,.,e should realize and fi3ht it at that level that it is the centralists '·Jho are in poHer.

And until we can finrl a Hay arou:~cl that one ·vTe are going to he beaten and continue to be he:tten because the centralists' philosophy is that we are a bu:1.ch of 1-1elfare buns do1•n here an11-1ay that they are carrying on t~eir '::-~tcks, and that philos.?phy applies whether you talk to the policy r:.:tkers in the Lil:>eral government in dtta•.oa or the Tory government. That _attitude has not permeated in tl-te :;niterl States for t!-le simple reason that thev have to :>e cognizant at ~tll tines

Tape ;.:o. 514(; •.:· .. that five little tiny states such as ?'ar:tlanrl, Connecticut, Rhode Island and t~1o or three other smaller states can \1ave the sa1:1e clout in t':le American cenate as an equal number of larr,e states li~e )!elv ':or!: and California tvhfch, to?;ether, t;ould have an aggregate population many times the size of the four or five smaller states. :.lr. Chairman, perhaps at some paint the Premier or the minister who attended that con~erence last >Yeel~ coulr! incicate to us whether t':lere has been some discussion on the Senate !!k"'.l:e-up a.long the lines that I have been talking .,;,out.

"r. Chairman, anot!ler reason, an immediate reason <•hy He have such a lack of impact on the national C:ecisions is the particular approac!l adopted by the present r-ovP.rnment. Now, there are exceptions to that because it comes rlo•vn t:o personalities. 'It cot:les dovm to the Hay particular ministers operate. A case in point is the :anister of Fisheries. The Hinister of Fisheries, I think it is 1:no~ far and Hide, either has a burn:!.ng personal dislil:e for ':lis counter])art in Ottawa, or the other lvay around, J.fr. Leblanc has a burning dis:ike for him. For Hhatever reason there is some bad c~emistry there.

And <>hen the ~'inister of Fisheries here is communicating ·,;~ith th= '·\inist::er in Ottawa it is either by telegram or press reJ.ease. I listened the other nig:1t to an open line shm• on .,,hich the Pinister of Fisheries took part, as did my colleague from Trinity-P-ay rle l'erde (!rr 0 F o Rm•e), and as closely as I c::~n gather daring the actual she•·.• the moderator on the shm• got something off a teleprinter 1·1hich said that the l'!inister of Fisheries in Otta~o~a had reacted to the 'super port' announcement. As nearly as.

I can gather it happened at that particular ;:>oint in time and the hen. '~inistcr of Fisheries v1as not aHare of }!r. Leblanc's reaction before that poir.t in time. That wac my summation of VThat ,;as going on o NoiY, here are t1m nen, two ministers of fisheries. <vho have fairly defined j urisrlict~_on. There is so:ne ..... r:;ument · a:. out sor.1e of the terms of reference-,

November 16, 1978 Tape 5147 IB-1 MR. SIMMONS: some of the terms of reference are about where the boundary 1 ine is and that kind of thing. But basically under the constitution they have defined responsibilities for the fisheries.

And we are not talking about Ottawa, the foreign country, and this is an issue we are going to have to deal with one of those days,. those of us who are concerned about national unity because there are people in this Province who are painting Ottawa as a foreign country, as though it is the enemy and we have got to get everything out of the enemy'~ camp as fast as we can and we have got to see that they do not invade us and obliterate us and that kind of nonsense.

Now it so happens that the Minister of Fisheries or the minister of any department but it is a very good parallel to .use fisheries because they have a Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa and we the Province have a Minister of Fisheries. So it is a good parallel and I will keep with that one for example reasons only. The Minister of Fisheries for Canada is as much the Minister of Fisheries in Newfoundland as the provincial Minister of Fisheries is ~;ithin his respective area of jurisdiction. And the idea that some how they are up there and we are down here just boggles the mind.

How about if the center of government, how about if Ottawa were Torbay, would that make it different? It would be harder to sell that they were the enemy I suppose. But if anybody is concerned about the national unity he had better find some less cheap political trick than that one to alienate people, to try and alienate people with Ottawa I mean and to try and get people on his side for his pet schemes.

I would hope that very soon the people who paint Ottawa as the enemy will get off that kick and find some more plausible way to sell their programme because the programme must have some merit in itself, you know, other than it is anti-Ottawa. Now look - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! If the hon. member would permit me, my _understanding here in debating the resolution is that we are debating

November 16, 1978 Tape 5147 IB-2 MR. CHAIRMAN: the principle behind the bill to come up and clearly relationships between the federal and provincial governments do have bearing on the credit of the Province and this seems to be a legitimate area to cover in discussing the resolution,but I do not know if the Table could permit a wide-ranging debate in the total area of relationships between the two areas of government unless it is brought in to the credit of the Province. I just mention that to the hon. member just so that he might be guided a little bit by it. MR. SIMMONS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I am aware of that and think you for your guidance and I was also aware that it was the minister in continuing ·debate who had opened up· this line of debate and I had explained in the beginning of my comments that I would hope I wou 1 d have the same U cense. :I wi 11 not exercise - AN HON. MEMBER: Is it to the credit of Newfoundland? MR.

SIMMONS: No, I was coming to some financial matters. was coming in relation to fisheries. ;ve ~~ere talking about our lack of clout on national financial decisions and I was building up,pr,obably a little slowly,but laying the ground work to show that if we have a lack of clout in national decision making, one of the reasons is the reason I gave about the facts of life, that we are a small entity population wise and I think I expounded on that sufficiently.

The other one I was advancing is that one reason for our lack of clout is the way some of the ministers "in the provincial Cabinet go about it and if we do not get our just desserts in terms of money for fisheries development by way of example, it may well be and I submit it is because of the clumsy approach that certain ministers are taking on the matter. ·And again I am not sure it is a clumsy approach because the present Minister of Fisheries has been called many things but never clumsy. He is not a clumsy, bungling minister. He does not come into that particular list.

So I submit he does not do it because he bungles. I think he does it for very deliberate reasons. I think he does it

November 16, 1978 Tape 5147 IB-3 MR. SIMMONS: because he sees that there may be some political advantage in being the champion of Newfoundland against that foreign country called Ottawa which we must protect ourselves against at all costs. Now, Mr. Chairman, the offshoot

~7ovcmbe:- 16, 197R T3pe :;o. 5143 Cl-i - 1 of t~w.t particulr.r "!.pproacll i:: t\at l·!e are !;'elling ourselves short i:l terms of the kin::s of money ue could get for various developoents, Here is ~~hat I mean: I 1;as lis t:ening to tile program the other night and here was a statement from the :-!inister ·of Fisheries for Canada in ~~hich he expressed some opinion on the subject of the super port, basically he said he has not heard about it, and the :!inister of Fisheries fn t:;e province G·!r.

Carter) 1~as taking quite a different position, and 1-1ithout getting into the merits of their various positions be­ cause that is not what I want ::o get at right nou but there is a tioe for that and I think we should get into it.

Hhat appalled me 1~as that here were my two :-!inisters of Fisheries~and equally mine as a constituant of this province, my :>ederal ~1inister and my Provincial Minister 1mo have respective jurisdictions in the iisheries area~and it da-.med on me once again that those t·.ro fellous ,1 those two people, confident as they are 1nth the legis­ l<:!tive responsibility for ptograms in their sectors, as confident as they are and 1dth the legislative mandate to perform their responsibilities, cannot get their heads together.

And we hear <>nSI-1ers like: "half billion dollar development, $61,000, On() super port,""Ohyes, I >-•rote the Hinister,nver·a month ago, he might not have read his mail, mind you.'' It ~~ns only $61,000.0()0 so it is not the kind .of thing I would pick up the p!1one and talk to him ~bout or have a meeting about it, It is only $61,000,000.

I just sent hin a letter and he might not have read his mail, per- haps he did not read his mail." As a matter of fact 1~ith n~· ex­ perience •dth some of the fello1-1s up in Otta~!a it is par for the course I -w·onc!.er sometimes Hhether they read any mail, I would be the firs:: to agree <Tith. the ;1inister on that, I 1-1onder sonetimes Hhether they read any mail up there at all or if they _are so isolated by civil servants and quasi-civil servants and political ~ppoitces, if

r•• 'l vO - t:1ey are ::;o isolated frou: reality, I \·!Onder so:neti:n~s if :::1ey .:;?er see a letter. I :1ave sympathy 1.1ith our l:in.ister of Fis!1eries on that particular point, I could 1~ell understand. l·fnat I ce:,not understand is why it is the !!inister of "isheries, for example, for llewfoundland and our other Hinister of Fisheries and we have two, we have a Federal ;linister and a Provbcial l!inister and it is not a case of the one sitting in this chamber being our liinister and the otiler one being their :I!nistcr, it is not that at all.

That is Hhat the :1inister of Fisheries tries to get across but ::hat is.nct the reality, it might be :1is perception but there are tHo Hinisters of Fisheries Hho have well definec responsibilities ~~ithin these provincial boun- .daries and,my Lord, if these two fellows cannot get their heads together on major matters like a strategy for fishc:ries develop- ment, if all they can do is send each other. memos ar,d press re- leases and telegrams I cannot get very confident, Nr. r.hairman, I cannot get very excited about the future of anything that is in the hands of people like that. I score them equally, Nr.

Speaker, it is not a partasen thing, it is frightful when t1·JO people Hho are charged lvith the very alsome responsibility of overseeing the development of t!-.e fishery, in so far as the public sector is concerned, Hhen t1vo people, lvhatever their political labels and it so happens that they have diffet;ent political lnbels at this time, but lvhen tHo people as ~onfident as these t'.;o seem to be and are I believe ;1it!1 sue!'! large responsibilit~.es, ~r:1en to1ey caunot get their heads togeti1er about a matter like this is it any wonder 1vhy there are still so :nany things left to be done in the fishery.

Is it any wonder Hhy 1-1e are not getting our just Jeserts from federal sources when it comes to fundin3. Hould 1.Je :1eed to be borro1dng this kin::~ of moaey H the :Hnister of ?isheries for !or llewfoundlan,i harl done as 'muc:1 ·homeHork on es tahlislling a rapport Hith his federal counterpart as he spent on issuing

:~cve~0er 16, 19i2, Tape .<o, 5148 :T.. SIY~·m>S: press :releases about hoN "aa the report \Jas. He are borrouing $150,000,000 today, according to t:lis bil1 1 and I submit, :Ir. Speaker, we are borrowing a large amount of it

November 16, 1978 Tape 5149 IB-1 MR. SIMMONS: unnecessarily,first of all in the context that ministers like the Minister of Fisheries have never yet:because I suppose they are blinded politically on the subject, I do not know, but for whatever reason they have never yet, Mr. Chairman, tapped the federal resources which are available to us. And I speak particularly in the fisheries area now as one of several ·examples that could be given.

There is another example- I·will not go into it but I will just drop it as an example so I will not be accused of giving just the one example - there is another example and that is in the area of manpower training. That is an abysmal story of the money that is availabl·e there that has not been tapped by the Province, an abysmal example.

There are other examples some of which relate ionly peripherally to provincial res pons i bi 1 i ty relating to sma 11 business 1 oans which are a va i 1 ab 1 e directly to the borrow from the federal source but there would be larger amounts going out if we had the active co-operation of the provincial Department of Rural Development, for example, or the provincial Department of Industrial Development. Now these are just some of the examples, Mr.

Chairman, where we are missing the boat in terms of money from Ottawa simply because a number of the provincial Cabinet ministers are just not willing to forget their partisan politics for a moment and realize that"my counterpart in Ottawa is going to be there at least until the next election, so the best I can do on behalf of the people of Newfoundland is establish a rapport Yith him." I say that the Minister of Fisheries has not done that. I say he has not tried to do it. I say he has cultivated the opposite tack indeed of separating himself as far as he can from the federal minister. And that is sad.

That is to his discredit and it is to the disadvantage of ali of us in Newfoundland,whether we are directly in the fishing industry or whether we are taxpayers ,if we are going to bear the brunt of this loan bill that we are about, I suppose, to .put through the House.

November 16, 1978 Tape 5149 18-2 MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Chairman, having been here a short time you soon learn that you have to say things for different reasons; You have to say some things because you believe them and for that reason alone. You have to say other things because you believe them but also because you realize if you do not say them a member opposite, perhaps my good friend from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall),will be .up pointing out that I did not cover all the months of the year, all the weeks, all the departments of government.

So I have to cover my tracks ·because last year I remember, last June,I was up and I referred to the debt position of the Province only three times in my fifteen hour address, three times at some length,as a matter of fact - sorry? MR. J. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: Yes,there is my coach from St. John's North in a new position in the government notice today, a new position. I say to the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) if he is going to have somebody behind him I cannot think of a better person than the member for St. John's North. Mr. Speaker, so for the benefit of the member for St.

John's East in particular once .again let me say something that I very firmJy believe in on this particular s~bject. I do not think it is necessary for our debt to be up around $2.4 billion according to the estimates, $2.402 billion in this fiscal year. I do not think it is necessary. Keep in .mind that the debt position of the Province or the total debt of the Province, the public debt in 1972 when this government took office was $900 million.

And if you recall the period just before this government assumed office there was a lot of noise and shouting from the present Premier and the former Minister of Finance, the now member for St. John's·West (Mr. Crosbie), a lot of shouting from these two people about the shocking size of the public debt. It was $900 million then. Shameful! Absolutely.shameful, they said, how large the public debt was.After twenty-three years of Confederation v1e had 11 debt of $900 mi 11 ion, after b1enty-three years.

·:ovcnber 16. 1973 !a~e 5150 r.r~-1 'tR. s n:.w:.:s: they said so~ that that was a vRry hi~h debt after tw~nty· three years $900 million. The present Premier said it in '71 and the forcer minister of finance, :lr. Croshie. said it in 1971 during the election campai~n in the fall of that year. $900 million, they said, was a large debt. Now, here we are, Mr.

Chairman, just seven years into this government, hardly seven yet, and they have managed to drive ~he debt froa $900 million over the billion dollar mark - over the billion-·and-a··half dollar mark - over the two billion dollar mark and they are about to go over the tw6-and-a-balf billion dollar mark. In seven years they have managed to add to the public debt $1,500 million. A billion and a half dollars has been added to the public debt in seven years, compared to $900 ~illion in twenty-three years. ~ow, Mr. Chairman, I said a minute ago that I did not feel it should be that large.

I will be honest with you: I cannot document that statement as nearly as well as I would like to. I will .tell you why - because,despite our best efforts on this side of the House, we are having an awful job, Mr. Chairman, finding out what this crowd are doing with the money. Oh, I know what the estimates say, but we are having an awful job findin~ out what they are doing with the money.

Throur;h ~~1e Public Accounts Committee, for example, we had a vehicle ·· standard vehicle no1< in the British parliamentary democracies - for findinp, out how the money was spent. l\ut, ;;r.,Chairrnan. as soon as we be~an to find out, the heads got to~ethcr and figured a way to get the committee off track and to see it ~ould not continue ~o find out, and we will come back to that one 6f tt~se days, ~r. Chairman, at the right ·ti~e: Eut suffice it to say now that the one legislative vehicle, the most effective vehicle, the most effective rarlia~cnt~ry yt::~icle t::is House hacl to find out hO\i tlte public money

~:;:::::'J:-:5: ~ffectively Jastroyed, and that is the Public Accounts Cor1mi t tee. :row, Hr. Chairman, I 1-:r-.o~·r t::e other submission. I kno1•, for exar.~ple, that it has been said that the government nembers of this Public Accounts Committee had to carry on valiantly as they did.

Hell, let us look at how valiantly. they were, if I believe press reports, this rump ~roup, there four government members including two Cabinet ministers, a parliamentary assistant to the Premier and the chairman of the P.C. caucus·and nobody is going to suggest there is anybody there with a conflict of intere~t, is there? :~o Cabinet ministers investieatin~ their own closets?

The chairman of the P.C. caucus l·rho could not even 3;et a caucus meeting for his friend, the Minister of Tourism, last summer when he was trying to referee one of thcs~ spats between the minister and the other minister. :rot ice they are still sittinG together? I notice they sat together all afte~noon without saying a ~ord. the minister of - what is he called ·these days? Rehabilitatio:1. Rehabilitation exactly. ~:era they are, four of them sitting down.

A little bill comes ur about a fishin~ trip to LabrRdor and do you know they exhausted the subject and they did not know where to ~o from You ~now the Auditor General ha~ to nive them a ~rilliant idea. a really brilliant idea, the kind nf thine that the av?.ra~e Eellot! could not thin!·. u~. y0u l~nn~.-r. 1;.~hy <:~o you. not talk to the l'rer.'.ic:r? ':hy do ;rou not talk to the ?rcwier?

~; c v e ::-.ln:'! r 15 , 10 7 '3 T~e Prcni~r authorize~ it, let us ask the Premier. Dut who at that tab:e was soin~ to sug~est that, ~r. Chairman? A new Cabinet ~inister just i::sic.ie the door~ was he going to incur the wrath of his ?Olitical hoss by asking little awkward questions before tte public c~meras? ~ot he,

November 1E, 1978 Tape 5151 IB-1 MR. SIMMONS: the member for Mount Pearl Arena, Mr. Chairman, not he. The minister for gutters, sidewalks and roads - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I do have to remind the hon. member that terms of derision are unparliamentary and I think that referring to members other than as members of districts could be interpreted as being derisive. So I would ask the hon. member if he would guard against that point. MR. SIMMONS: Well, Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I understood that it was permissible to refer to members who hold Cabinet responsibility by their Cabinet designation. MR. W.

ROWE: Their responsibilities .. MR. SIMMONS: No, I just heard a ruling, Mr. Chairman. The ruling said that I could refer to him_'only by his district name. I shall do that if that is the ruling but I point out that Mr. Chairman is very narrowing circumscribing the ways I may refer to another hon. member and I would hope that I can refer to him by his Cabinet designation and also by his area of responsibi.lity. I was just calling to mind some of the things the minister is supposed to be doing but · if I cannot do that I sha 11 refer to the member as the member for Pleasantville pro tern and leave it at that. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. member is quite correct of course that members can be referred to as of the district or,if they are members of Cabinet~as to their areas of responsibility. But I think the terms are generally known. Is the Committee ready to adopt the resolution? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I yielded because I had raised a point of order and I sat to allow Mr. Chairman to rule. If that is ~oin~ to be used against me I give notice I will not sit and I w~ll just stand and hold the floor. Mr. Chairman, I know it is a touchy subject, this shemozzle. Even one of the ministe~of the Cabinet

November 16. 1978 Tape 5151 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: told me over there what a stunned decision they had made, the junior boys in the backroom. If you are going to have backroom boys, do not have junior boys in the backroom. That is where they made their blunder, Mr. Chairman, junior boys in the backroom. A minister just inside the Cabinet door was not going to go and squeal on his political boss about a fishing trip to Labrador. The member for Pleasantville pro tern, the Minister of Transportat1on, - AN HON; MEMBER: Pro tern? MR.

SIMMONS: Pro tern.· The member responsible for all kinds of things I am not allowed to mention. ·the fact that he bungled bill 50. I suppose I am allowed to mention That is parliamentary. I predict he will. bungle transportation just as quickly as he bungled municipal affairs. Was he, Mr. Chairman, having bungled bill SO,about to invite the wrath of his political boss again by asking awkward questions about a little fishing trip to Labrador? Or how about, Mr. Chairr:1an, the member for Ferryland (Mr.

Power), the newly appointed parliamentary assjstant to the Premieri h'as he going to jeopardize his new-found comfort so soon by asking awkward questions about a trip to Labrador? It leaves only one, Mr. Chairman, only one.. That is three of them. There is only one of them left, Mr. Chairman. And any question - OR. WINSOR: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Or.der, please! A point of order. _OR.

WINSOR: What the member opposite is referring to is an investigation that the Public Accounts Committee has ongoing, and the Auditor General,on the request· of the Public Accounts Committee, is now investigating. I would assume the report will be forwarded to myself as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee and I will make ·it known to this Chamber immediately as I receive it . But certainly think this is typical of the irresponsibility of

November 16, 1978 Tape 5151 IB-3 .DR. WINSOR: the former Chairman of the Committee in making judgements on something of.which he knows very little about. MR. SIMMONS: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. He is quite right, Mr. Chairman, I know very little about it as does he on the subject of the Premier's trip because the Premier would not tell us but we are going to find out. What I am doing now, Mr. Chairman,

Tape ::o. 515~ ~.'1'-1 is commenting because I Has not e.t the neetinf. of tt:e rump group. I am rea::linc press re?orts and I Houlrl hope that anything 1-1~1ic~1 comes to r.,e as flUblic information, public information, :<r.

C:1airrnan, not through the transcripts of any committee or contriven committee or riggerl committee but information Hhich cane to r..e through the ou!:lic nedia ~ and I me. de that clear that I had rear\ it in the net;snaper, I r.aic. that earlier.- I \'IOuld hope that I ~;auld have tile freedom to comment or to bring to this House any information thich I p.!.c1< U!J •.1hic!1 I ltave read in the public media and t11at is ·.-::1at I have heen :ioin~>,.

I d.o not thinl: one coul-i se.y that a paint of order is present before the Chair at this time ~ut per!~<>.ps I could aga1.r. poir,t out that in Col'li"ittee, especially on a resolution l:efore a supply bill, one speal;s in broad terms <'.S to t!1e background related to that and in the particular conte::t ,;here t;e are talking about the credit of the Province, the financial state of the Province, it would be quite proper to mention t:le Public Accounts Co=ittee ;1hich 1·1as one of the watchdogs in that rer,ard; but in the ahsence of the Committee or even the Eouse having receiverl a report from that Comrnittee it tmuld be improper and clearly the Table could not allot,· it to continue to go into that in any great detail.

J:n other t·TOn!s, the Cornrnittee can be referred to in the context of its function as a ,;atchrlog for th10 fii'.c.nces of the "rovince, !'ut to go into rletail :;•; to r~c.ttt:>rs brought up in the Corrunittee anrl hot-1 they are disposecl of ar.d so on and· so forth, this would have to aHait a report to the House. Thank you, ~;r. Chairman. •:r. Chairman, of course I appreciate 11hat you i1ave had to say and I a:n sure you are talking about t!·e Public Accounts Commit tee. '-Tell, \Jhat I t-1as talking about, l!r.

Chairman, t~as a rump group of four that have constituted themselves together as a cormr.ittee,tJhich is quite another thing. And I have not ;tt any ti;ne, ::r. Chairman, at any time t'!lis afternoon talked about the Public

!ape .;o. 515?. 1.'!.'-2 : :R. SI?':·'O:'!S: Accounts Committee, not even- I have made a reference to it peripherally thP-t it had been a Hatchdog but that committee had been destroyed and .in its p