Manitoba Hansard — 18 March 1974 (Sitting 56, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-56

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock Monday, March 18, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 1493 Before we proceed I should like to direct the att ention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 31 students, Grade 7 standing, of the Hastings Junior High. These students are under the direction of Mr. Fuith and Mrs. Dick. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Riel. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today. Also, I would like to ask the indulgence of the Assembly.

As you are probably aware, once for each new legislative elected Assembly, and this is the 30th, there is a picture taken, a group picture of all the MLA •s. If Thursday would be a suitable day, I would then make arrangements to have the picture taken at 2:15, that is prior to the opening, have that done and then we would start our formal proceedings at 2:30. If there is any real objections, well, then I can possibly postpone the date. I would appreciate if either the Whips or the House Leaders would inform me or my office so that I can make further arrangements. Presenting Petitions ; • . .

The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR . JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, insofar as our Party is con cerned, we will accept that as suggested, Thursday at 2:15. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . I. H. ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Yes, Mr. Speaker, the 2:15 time is acceptable to us. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable House Leader. HON . SIDNEY GREEN Q. C. (Honourable House Leader) (Inkster): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe that •s agreeable. MR . SPEAKER: Thank you. Presenting Petitions; The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR . GORDON E .

JO HNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of James Moorhouse and Others, praying for the passage of

an Act to incorporate the Portage Curling Club. MR . SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. The Honourable Member for Riel. ORAL QUESTI ONS MR . DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I want to raise first of all a matter of House Privilege, and it's a question of the propriety of the statement made on Friday by the First Minister regarding the impending Hydro rates for Manitoba.

I raise the question because it is a major statement, that I believe by tradition, should have been made in the House and not out of this Chamber. I •d like to follow that with a question to the First Minister. If he can advise the House in some detail now, of the information he did impart on Friday with regards to the impending rates? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYE R (Premier of Manitoba) (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, responding first to the suggestion that, as a matter of House Privilege, a statement of that kind should have been made in the House, I would merely point out to you, Sir, and to the Honourable Member for Riel, that in fact I made no statement on Friday.

I was responding to questions that were asked during the course of a press conference, and that the substance of my reply to these questions was exactly in accordance with the same information given to Members of this House in Public Utilities Committee, April of 1973, at which time it was indicated that an increase in the spring of 1974 would in all probability be required, and giving some order of magnitude of increase at that time as well. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

We are given to understand from the reports of his interview that the impending rate increase in 1974 is of the order of 20 percent this year followed by a 10 percent per year rise thereafter. Can this be confirmed

1494 March 18, 19 74 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. CRAIK cont•d) . , .•• by the First Minister at this time ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, that was not a formal enunciation.

I was asked to give some indication as to the probabilities for the future, and I indicated that the increase which in fact, had been recommended back in 1970, had been forestalled because of a number of reasons, but that in April of 113, it was indicated that there would be an increase required in almost certain likelihood, and insofar as the future is concerned, I have no formal enunciation to make other than to give an indication that Manitoba Hydro, like other major utilities, will probably have to go on some annual index or adjustment mechanism. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR .

CRAIK: Mr, Speaker, are we correct in assuming if the rate of increase is 10 percent per year following this year, plus the 20 percent this year, that we can expect the Hydro rates to be doubled in five years over what they are now? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr, Speaker, I don•t know if that arithmetic works out to rates doubling in five years , All I do know is that if we are merely to keep in line with sister provinces• electrical utilities, that increases in the order of magnitude of 50 percent have already been effected in this decade, starting since 19 70. MR .

SPEAKE R: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party , MR. AS PER: Thank you, Mr, Speaker, My question is to the Minister of Mines and Resources, Does the Government of Manitoba intend to introduce legislation or regulations, taking action to require mandatory refunds on all soft drink, beer, wine, whiskey bottles, or any kind of a guarantee for a ban on glass throw- away containers ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR . GREEN: Mr .

Speaker, I discussed th-is rather extensively during my estimates last year, and I will try and do the same this year� It's not a question that I can answer on Orders of the Day. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party . MR . ASPER: Well, to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. Does he have any studies or a series of recommendations from the department relating to the problem of solid waste, with specific reference to the glass containers ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . GREEN: Mr.

Speaker , there have been numerous documents relative to this matter within the department, as well as the observance of the situation in other provinces and other states in the United State s, It is a very, very complicated problem which I think that we have had some success with and some failures with, as have other provinces, and it's not a matter which is subjGct to very good analysis on Orders of the Day questions. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party, MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister, Can he indicate why Manitoba has lagged behind Alberta, B.

C. and even Saskatchewan in presenting any kind of legislation . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please, Order, please . The question. is argumentat ive. The honourable member wish to rephrase it ? MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that Saskatchewan, British Columbia and Alberta have for some years now had similar experience, and similar legislation, is there some specific reason why the Minister refuses to act on this problem ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, each of the jurisdictions referred to have had problems, The Province of Saskatchewan has banned outright the use of cans.

We have not felt yet that the Province of Manitoba should involve itself in state control to that extent, The Province of Alberta spends $3 million a year on a very, very complicated type of depot system, which has involved the building of depots throughout the province, at a cost to the people of Alberta of one penny per drink per year, The depot operators are now asking for more .

The Minister in Alberta is very satisfied with the scheme because he says it creates three millions worth of dollars of employment every year, which, if we carry it further, if you charge two cents a bottle, it would create six million dollars worth of employ ment every year . We have not felt that the litter problem in Manitoba justifies the extra expenditure of a

March 18 , 1974 1495 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN cont1d) .. , .. million and a half dollars a year, yet. In British Columbia they hoped that they would deal with the problem of solid waste by requiring the return through deposit legislation, They found that the solid waste that they were getting was coming back through the outlets rather than through the garbage disposal system. Now, Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that I have given an in-depth analysis of all the provinces. I tried to indicate to my honourable friend that I thought it was not possible to do a good job on Orders of the Day.

The Provin ce of Manitoba has had a scheme which has resulted in a reduction of the non-refillable bottle share of the market from something like 17 percent of the market to four percent of the market, with no mandatory state control laws. If we can continue success without inhibiting the freedom of the people of Manitoba to choose their product, we will try to do so. If the honourable member says that we are behind the other provinces, then we will have to explain that the Pr �vince of Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland have apparently also not sought to deal with laws. Now, Mr .

Speaker, it may be necessary to enact laws; it may be necessary to have a measure of state control which we would try to avoid, but if we can accomplish some of the things that we have accomplished, which I will refer to more carefully when we get to my Estimates, without the imposition of laws inhibiting the right of Manitobans to choose their product and at the same time have a litter free pro vi nee we will attempt to do so. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party . MR .

ASPER: In view of the Minister's answer, I put one last question to him, Has he been informed and has he studied the proposals that the Government of Ontario to which he just referred as a non-licen sing province, has he familiarized himself with what the Province of Ontario intends to do about the problem? MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I did not refer to the Province of Ontario as a non-lic ensing province, I indicated that it was one of the provinces that has not enacted laws banning or inhibiting the freedom of the citizen relative to the use of these products.

I personally have not seen the proposals that are now being presented in Ontario but knowing the interest which our Environmental Protection Branch has given with respect to these problems I am sure that they will be aware of same. If they are not, I will bring it to their attention that the Leader of the Liberal Party has indicated that there is some new proposals in Ontario that they should be looking at. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr . Speaker, my question to the Honourable the First Minister, refers, Mr.

Speaker, to the 1974 Royal Manitoba Winter Fair which takes place during the week of April 1st to 6th in the Keystone Centre in Brandon. I was wondering if the First Minister is prepared to observe the usual traditions and arrange for the House to adjourn one day of that week so that the members might have an opportunity to see this most important agricultural exhibition? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the fact that this has been a long-standing practice of this House to adjourn for one day during the week of the Provincial Exhibition and Winter Fair.

I believe that a request was made initially for this taking place on the second of April, being a Tuesday, and that after some conversation with the Director of the Fair that the date April 3rd was agreed to, and I believe that1s been communicated to the House Leader and the Minister of Agriculture. So unless some complication has entered into the matter I would think that the House Leader could confirm now that we would adjourn on the third of April . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone . MR . JAMES R. FERGUSON (Gladstone): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to address my question to the Minister of Agriculture, and ask him: does the Minister not consider that the Manitoba Marketing Board ballot is misleading to the grain producers uf Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON . SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. FERGUSON: Did the Minister imply in his ballot that wheat would be taken out of the jurisdiction of the Canadian Wheat Board? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the Honourable Member for Gladstone

149 6 March 18, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. USKIW cont•d) .•... that he read the letter that went out with the ballot in which it is indicated that wheat is also used for feeding purposes and could be sold off board under the proposed federal new plan for the next crop year:, MR •. FERGUSON: Did Mr. Lang at any time imply that wheat would be taken out of the jurisdiction of the Canadian Wheat Board ? MR. SPEAKER: Order please . That's asking for an opinion of an

interpretation. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Minister of Labour. I wonder if the Minister can advise the House if he has received a request from MGEA to switch from the Manitoba Civil Service Act to that of the Manitoba Labour Relations Act ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): No , Mr. Speaker. MR.

PATRICK: Has the Minister met with the executive of the MGEA and will he be withdrawing Bill No. 7, the Civil Service Act and be bringing further amendments to it ? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, since I became the Minister of Labour and the Minister responsible for the Civil Service some four or five years ago I have met quite frequently with the executive of the Manitoba Government Employees' Association. I've had no representations in respect to Bill No. 7. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary.

Is the Minister giving any consideration to bring the MGEA from the Manitoba Civil Service Act, to bring it under the umbrella of the Manitoba Labour Relations Act ? MR. PAU LLEY: The Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker, is constantly giving considera tion to all aspects dealing with labour- management relations. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable the Minister of Labour. Is there a shortage of available labour for the building trades and construction industry in the Manitoba market at the present time ?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAU LLEY: I would not be surprised, Mr. Speaker, if there is some shortage. It hasn't been drawn precisely to my attention as to certain classifications or trades. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. Are attempts being made, or will attempts be made to direct members of the unemployed force in Manitoba into that industry? MR. PAULLEY: Well, M r.

Speaker, if the situation was such that there are people who are on the unemployment rolls that are required to perform jobs or in performing jobs I would suggest that Canada Manpower is the authority for the direction of those types of employees into the labour force. MR. SHERMAN: A final supplementary , Mr. Speaker. Will the government , i.e. the Minister block any attempt by the industry to recruit labour outside the province and possibly outside the country ? MR. PAULLEY: I think, Mr.

Speaker, what I could say in response to that question, that we would not block any effort to obtain qualified and skilled persons from other parts of Canada or indeed outside, after all avenues of supplying Manitobans into positions have been exhausted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to give indication and perhaps the Clerk could take note , that with respect to the questions that appear on the Order Paper and reappear ea ch Monday, that questions 1 to 32 inclusive, it is proposed - I've indicated this last week but I wish to confirm - questions 1 to 32, the information will be provided by way of Return to an Order; and questions 34 to 50 inclusive also by wa,y of a Return to an Order; and questions 59 to 75 inclusive in a similar fashion. And questions 77 to 93. All other questions will be replied to as answers to written questions presumably.

This is subject to the usual conditions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface . The Honourable Member for Birtle-Rus sell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I would like to ask the First Minister, when he indicates that these will be answered in Return to an Order, I would like to ask him if such an Order has been filed in this House?

March 18, 1974 ORAL QUE STIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. 1497 MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would simply, to expedite matters, refer my honourable friend to Rule 48 subsection (5) in which it provides clearly that questions that are of such a nature that can lend themselves to the form of a Return the Minister may state that an Order of the House shall be adopted to that effect. So I am merely indicating, pursuant with Rule 48 , that those specified questions will be replied to in the form of a Return to an Order. · MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St . Boniface. Order please.

The Ho nour able Member for Riel . MR . CRAIK: On the same point of order, I ask the First Minister, since the questions have been on the Order Paper for several weeks, now since the first week of the Legislature sitting, whether he can advise whether the answers' to the questions are in preparation? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

As my honourable friend can appreciate there are many questions and many of them are in a sense repetitious in terms of the information that is being sought for each-- repeating the same request for each department, and that is the reason why it will be replied to in the manner in which I 've indicated. And the material is being collated, co-ordinated, marshalled together by staff in the management group. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR . J. PAUL MARION (St. Boniface) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 11d like to direct my question to the Act ing Minister of Education.

In view of the priority now universally recognized and established with respect to energy conservation, is the Department establishing criteria to be followed by school boards in any new construction program with the objective of energy conservation? MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON . SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I1d have to take that as notice on behalf of the Minister of Education. MR .

MARION: I wonder, while the Ac ting Minister is taking that as notice, I wonder if he could also define for the House what type of guidelines are being established with respect to energy conservation and being asked for implementation by school boards. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture and it relates to the questions that my colleague from Gladstone was conveying to him.

Can he indicate the deadline that the ballot that had been sent out to all the farmers in Manitoba, the return of that ballot, the deadline it has to be returned to his office. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agri culture. MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think the letter that went out with the ballot e<:plai ned that in full, and as I recall it it 1s the 29th of March. MR. EINARSON: I have a second question, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister.

Could he indicate whether he was in consultation with any farm organizations about this matter before he decided to send out this ballot, and if so what organizations did he consult? MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I should like to inform my honourable friend that we have been discussing the question of feed grains marketing with all interested groups in all provinces of Canada and indeed with the Government of Can ada for the last three years. MR . EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, 11d like to direct a third question to the Minister.

Can he indicate what percentage of our coarse grains grown in Western Canada find their way to Ea stern Canada? MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think that one has to look at the question of grain marketing as a matter of whether we want to continue maximum producer control and benefit through the Canadian Wheat Board system, and the quantity is something of another matter, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . EINARSON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm wondering then can the Minister indicate to this House if a negative answer is given to the second question on the ballot, could he indicate what hers prepared to do or what action he would be taking? MR. SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical. The Honourable Member for Brandon West.

1498 March 18, 1974 ORAL QUES TIONS MR . EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West) : Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Minister of Labour, With reference to the strike of Can ada Safeway employees at Brandon, which I understand is now in its fifth week, can the Minister tell the House whether his department has been requested to give their services in an effort to settle this dispute ? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Labour, MR . PAULLEY : The answer Mr. Speaker, is no, no request has been malle to me as Minister. I was in Brandon over th� weekend, as I'm sure my honourable friend was aware.

I have had some discussions there and I 'm giving serious consideration to using my ministerial prerogative of appointing a conciliation officer to see if we can bring about a resolving of this dispute , I 1m sure that all members would agree with me that it has been quite a prolonged strike and it would be desirous on behalf of the community to get the parties together to see if they can resolve their differences. MR . Mc3ILL: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could tell us whether he is aware of whether or not the parties to this dispute are meeting regularly in an effort to find a solution, have there been regular meetings taking place ? MR . PAULLEY : No, Mr. Speaker, I haven't received any Precise information as to the number of meetings that have been held between the two parties, I think that they have been relatively infrequent, and that was revealed to me, Mr.

Speaker, in Brandon over the weekend and that is the reason I indicated to my honourable friend that I'm giving very serious consideration to using one of the sections of the Act that gives me the right to attempt to get them together, But even under our Labour Relations Act, Mr, Speaker, the Minister has the authority to attempt to get parties together, but using that well known adage, "lt takes two to tango", MR. SPEA KE R: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, MR . G . JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I have three questions to direct to the Minister of Agriculture; perhaps he1ll take them one at a time, Will the Minister indicate whether the letter addressed to all grain producers in Manitoba and sent out from the Minister's office on March 15, 19 74, and signed by the Minister, is an atte mpt to determine how producers think their grain should be marketed, or is an atte mpt to use public moneys to wage a partisan political fight with the Federal Government ? MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order please.

The question is argumentative, If the honourable gentleman had stopped at the last phrase he would have been okay. MR . G. JOHNSTON: Well, will the Minister explain why his letter contains mis statements of fact , when it claimed that Eas tern Canada has traditio nally been the largest market for western feed grains, and when in fact, prairie feed consumption of western feed grains was 117 million bushels last year and eastern consumption was 605 million bushels last year? Will he explain that mis-statement of fact ? MR . USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I think the statistics speak for themselves, I believe that is couched in the terms of an exportable product from the prairie region, MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member from Birtle-Russell . MR . GRAHAM: Yes, Mr, Speaker, I also have a question for the Minister of Agriculture, I wonder if the Minister could indicate to the House what the approximate cost of a full page ad in 11The Co-operator" in living colour would cost the Province of Manitoba ? MR . SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: I would imagine a few hundred dollars, Mr. Speaker. I really don't know. MR .

GRAHAM: A supplementary question, Mr, Speaker. Did the Minister or members of his department issue instructions in the printing of this, that Tory blue should be used rather than Socialist red ? MR . USKIW: Mr, Speaker, it had occurred to me that if it was in Tory blue, that we might get some converts over from the Qther side to the principle or orderly marketing. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . ASPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Minister of Agriculture.

Would he explain why he has doubled the rent being charged by his department for cattle grazing land owned by the Crown which is administered by his department ? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Mr, Speaker, I think that that particular revision has been due for some time . We haven't had any significant adjustment in the province for a good number of years,

March 18, 1974 1499 ORAL QUES TIONS (MR. USKIW contrd) .•..• probably at least ten, or thereabouts at any rate, Mr. Speaker, We are still away below Saskatchewan and Alberta even with the revised rate. MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister now relates to his answer. He says we have • . . MR . SPEAKER: Question? MR . ASPER: I believe he said that we have not had raises in the rates . MR . SPEA KER: Question? MR .

ASPER: My question is, if that statement is correct, if I have stated his answer correctly, then how can he account for the fact that in fact over the past four years he has tripled the rates ? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think I•m talking about significant rates, I don•t think that my honourable friend is accurate in his statement. MR . ASPER: Well, Mr. Speaker, will the Minister confirm that in the last year he has doubled the grazing rents - doubled the rate of charge for acreage on grazing land ? MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the formula has been changed only for this year for the first time.

If there were rate adjustments, it was basis the old formula. MR . AS PER: Mr. Speaker, I put the question to the Minister. Based on rents of 1969 , on a quarter

section being $44, 64, will he confirm that those rents went up in 19 71 to $52. 80 and in '72 to $54, 72, 173 to $6 1. 92, and in '74 to $124, 80 ? MR . USKIW: My honourable friend may have a specific case in point, Mr. Speaker, so I can•t really respond to him on that particular one, but the formula provided for the rate to follow the price of beef and therefore there are adjustments current at all times every year depending on the price of beef. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR . FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, To the Minister of Agriculture again.

Would he confirm or deny that he is again attempting to pull one of his usual snow jobs on the grain producers in Manitoba? MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, MR. A . R . ADAM (Ste . Rose) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agricul ture, and I would like to ask him when is the deadline for mailing out the ballots • . . ? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I believe I answered that question today. It 's the 29th of March. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, Oh, I•m sorry. Order please. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM: Is that the deadline for voting or mailing of the ballots, because I understand that some eligible permit holders have not received any ballots to date . That•s why I asked the question. MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, itrs the date at which ballots must be mailed, no later than that date. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . LLOYD AXWOR THY (Fort Rouge): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I•d like to ask the Minister of Mines and Resources a question.

Could the Minister indicate whether a major finding of the report entitled "The Souris River Basin Working Group Report" published in June 197� was that in no way must the quality or flow of the Souris River Basin be affected or impaired in order for that area to develop or enhance its food processing industry or its agricultural productivity ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines ..• MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to go back to the report to get the verbatim finding that the honourable member is referring to. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, could the Minister indicate whether that particular report was included in the environmental impact study that was undertaken by the Bureau of Reclamation; and is that report, also being Presently used in the monitoring studies and the assessment studies now going under way ? MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, as to whether the United States used that report in their studies, I cannot be certain. The monitoring studies that the honourable member referred to, I have repeatedly indicated are not monitoring of any results or any materials. It is

15 00 March 18, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN cont•d) ••• •. monitoring of an official's group, which is to meet to determine from the United States authorities how they intend to comply with their undertaking that they will not pollute Canadian waters . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the Government of Manitoba then using this particular Souris River Basin report as a basis of measuring or using as a standard against which the American action will be judged or assessed, in terms of its impact? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I would assume , because I am aware of their proficiency, that the Manitoba people will be using all of the intellige nce which is available to them - including the report that the honourable member refers to. MR. AXWORTHY: Fine. A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . Would the Minister undertake to table that particular report in the House considering it is now a confidential report , but concerning the importance of the issue to the people of Manitoba and the need for that kind of public intelligence and information ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister . MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, the member indicates that it•s a confidential report . The report that he refers to I•m not immediately acquainted with. I•m not aware of its confident iality. It is not so confidential , at least, that the honourable member has not obtained a copy of it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake . The honourable member state his point of order. MR. AXWORTHY: Yes , the point of order is, that I do not have a copy and the Minister is wrong to suggest that I have . That's why I•m asking information about it . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR.

GREEN: I regret the fact that I attributed the honourable member to having a copy of something which he does not have a copy of, according to his own stateme nt . The honourable member at least has information which is contained in the report, and to that extent it has not been confidential . I am unaware that there is a confidential report relative to the Souris River Basin.

I am aware that the Government of Manitoba has pleaded with the Government of Canada to participate in financing a Souris Basin Water study and that to date the Government of Canada has refused to participate in financing which is a normal water study report . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake . MR. EINARSON: Yes , Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture . It relates to the home economists who are serving in the various areas of Manitoba.

Could the Minister confirm whether or not the home economists will no longer be under his juris diction as of March 31st; and if the affirmative, under whose jurisdiction will they fall? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, if my honourable friend would read Hansard, I think we dealt with this matter during the estimates debate. But I indicated at that time that there has been a change . The Department of Health has taken over the centre core of the Home Ec. program. That is a Winnipeg group numbering some six, or thereabouts.

We are retaining our regional staff, or at least we are retaining I believe, one or two per region across the Provin ce. I could be more specific, but lld have to get the information, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock La ke. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Health and Social Development . Could he inform the House as to whether any of these home economists will no longer be using their services in the regions that they now serve in the rural parts of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR.

MILLER: The Minister of Agriculture has indicated the core group, those who have been in the City of Winnipeg, will continue to be in the City of Winnipeg; those that are in rural Manitoba, one or two will be retained within each region and will serve the Depart ment of Agriculture as they have in the past. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake . MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister then indicate how many home

March 18, 1974 1501 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR . EINARSON cont 'd) .' .••• economists will have their services changed and will go find other occupations in rural Manitoba? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker , I can•t answer that specific question. The suggestion that they're going to have to find other occupations , I can't see why. We still need home economists and they can remain as home economists. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. --(In terjection)-- The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR .

EINARSON: Do I understand in the Minister's answer that now, in the future as of April 1st, some home economists will be serving a considerably larger area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . MILLER: Yes , that•s the general idea, that they will have larger areas and perhaps a larger job to do, because they'll not simply be dealing with the Department of Agriculture , but meeting the needs of people , whether they be through Agriculture or through Health or what-hav e-you. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Attorney-General.

Would he indicate whether he or his department has turned over the matter of the investigation of the Department of Co-Operative Development and the Northern Fishing Co-ops to the RCMP? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PAW LEY (Attorney-3eneral) (Selkirk): No , we have not, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Could the Minister indicate whether it's his intention to do so, and if so, when? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PA WLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I thought the words the First Minister had used were quite clear when he made reference to the Departmen t of the Attorney-General of this enquiry. The words were "if necessary, it will be referred to the RCMP." MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Attorney-General. Would the Minister indicate whether he or his department has or intends to request the RCMP to take whatever steps are necessary to ensure the security of all documents , records and cheques relating to the J . M. K.

Construction, and R & M Construction, and the relationships between those companies, their customers and suppliers, and the Communities Economic Development Fund? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, that matter was raised on Friday and I indicated to the honourable member that we would be looking into it, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the specific question is whether or not it is the intent of the Attorney-General's department to take this action of securing these documents? MR.

SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, on Friday afternoon I took it that the Leader of the Opposition felt that the knowledge of the news being Presented indicates a security Problem, that once the news is presented that there would be a security problem relative to the documents, and I should be running around therefore placing an embargo on documents. I don't think that there is a security problem with relation to documents.

I don1t think that the Leader of the Opposition feels that there was , otherwise he wouldn't have made a public stateme nt before seeing to it that the documents were secured, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MARION: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Honourable Minister in charge of Autopac. I wonder if he can confirm for this House the fact that accidents are up, or incidents of accidents are up 22 percent in the last four months over the previous year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON.

BILLIE URUSKI (Minister responsible for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation; Minister responsible for Motor Vehicle Branch) (Lac du Bonnet): The claims statistics revealed would indicate that.

1502 March 18 , 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR . MARION: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Will the loss for next year be concurrently greater by that 22 percent ? MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Member- for Bran don West. MR . McGILL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs.

I wonder if the Minister can indicate whether his department was involved with the Metis Federation and its regional Vice-Pres ident Ben Thompson, in the selection of people who were to receive grants under the Federal Governme nt's upgrading and renovating of homes program referred to by Mr. Allison in his affidavit, as a Winter Warmth Progr am ? MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. RON McBRYDE (Minister of Northern Affairs) (The Pa s): Mr.

Speaker, my understanding is that this Federal Government program, the Winter Warmth Prog ram, is administered by the Manitoba Metis Federation and I'm not aware of any involvement of the Department of Northern Affairs in this program . MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGIL L: Could the Minister confirm that many of the programs undertaken by R & M Construction were programs in which authority came from one of the directors, Mr. Ben Thompson, in his capacity as Vice-Pres ident of the Metis Federation, or in his capacity as a contract employee of government ? MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs . MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I think the member should understand and be quite clear in his own mind that my understanding is that Mr. Thompson was the Regional Vice President or President of the Thompson Local of the Manitoba Metis Federation at the time that this construction company and the allegations made the other day -- the time that they relate to . It has been since that time that Mr . Thompson was hired by a panel to work for the Department of Northern Affairs , and therefore there is really no relationship between Mr.

Thompson and the time that these accusations were made in the Department of Northern Affairs. MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL : A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is Mr. Thompson then now a contract employee of the Manitoba Government ? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister. MR . McBRYDE: I indicated the answer in my previous answer , Mr. Chairman, The answer is yes. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 11d like to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Development.

Can he indicate whether Mr. John Kregeris visited him to indicate to him that something was wrong in connection with the way in which the Pensioners Program was being run in northern Manitoba ? MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . MILLER: My gosh , yes, I think that name strikes a bell. MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhine land. MR . BROWN: Can the Minister recall what action he took after the visit ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . MILLER: So vaguely, that I wouldn't even try to pretend that I do recall the details. MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . BROWN: My question is to the same Minister. Is the Minister the person responsible for the Home Improvement Program in northern Manito ba ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker , I'm not sure whether MHRC is responsible for that or not . I•d have to look into that . MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mem ber for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable, the Minister of Northern Affairs.

I wonder can the Minister indicate to the House whether the CEDF fund report on Wabowden was brought to his attention prior to it being tabled in the House by the Leader of the Opposition last Frid ay ? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs.

March 18, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . McBRYDE: No, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. 1503 MR . McKENZIE : Another question, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. I wonder can the Honourable Minister advise the House, did you have any knowledge from any source that there were in Wabowden five community development officers with no clearly defined function? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR . McBRYDE : Mr.

Speaker, I think that the report that the member refers to was an internal document of the Communities Economic Development Fund and had they thought it was worthwhile I •m sure they would have forwarded a copy of the same to the Minister of Northern Affairs. I am not positive, Mr. Chairman, in terms of staff of Northern Affairs how many staff are there in Wabowden at this time or were at that time of that report . The report, I think, having read it over, was not that significant a document in terms of policy in northern Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE : Mr.

Speaker , a further supplementary to the Honourable Minister . I wonder if the Minister will take it as notice and advise the House, if, in fact , five community development officers were on the payroll there and you got no knowledge of it? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . McBRYDE : Mr. Chairman, the Extension Services of the Department of Northern Affairs was explained during my estimates , has a number of positions that could be referred to as community development positions.

Some of those positions are located in Wabowden but work out from the community of Wabowden to various communities such as Cross Lake, Pikwitonei, Thicket Portage and other communities in that vicinity. MR . SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia . MR . PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, I wonder if the Minister can advise the House if the government or his department has acquired land at Delta Marsh to control water levels at this marsh so that we can increase the wildlife production? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR .

GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, there is a program for acquiring recreation al land and other land, and Mr. Davis and myself announced jointly today a program for the rehabilitation of the Delta Marsh, a program involving $3.2 million. I am not certain of the locations of land already acquired, but there is certainly a program for acquiring land in the Delta Marsh. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . PATRICK: A supplementary , Mr. Speaker. Does the $3.2 million development program, does that include acquisition of land as well? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . GREEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker , I believe - and again I•m speaking from memory I believe approximately two million is for land acquisition. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia . MR . PATRICK: A supplementary Mr. Speaker . I wonder if the Minister can tell the House what is the program with the Federal Governmen t, is it a 50-50 cost sharing, and how many acres of land is involved - how many acres of marsh land will the government own? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, it is a 50-50 cost sharing.

I cannot say how many acres of land we will acquire , because I know that the prices for that land will have to be negotiated. But the honourable member will appreciate the fact that I have indicated that I have a great preference for the public owning recreation al land and that this ensures that it will be available to all of the citizens of Manitoba, and we hope to move in that direction . MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I•d like to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Development .

Was it the practice of the government in connection with programs in the north to have the people do their own home improvements rather than to have them tendered and completed by contractors. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health.

1504 March 18, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe the member may be referring to the Winter Works Program, the PEP programs; in which case they were not under my jurisdiction, MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Resources, he has just left the House, Mr. Speaker, I'll proceed with the question. Can the Minister indicate when Dunwoody, Saul and Smith attempted to do their audit of R and M Construction? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, the matters that were raised by the affidavit of Mr. Allison are being looked at, looked into and I will be having answers to the House on those matters which require answer in due course. I'm not going to give out answers piecemeal. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Can the Minister of Mines and Resources indicate whether Mr. Allison visited his office to discuss the problems of the company? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . GREEN: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. Can the Minister indicate who gave Mr. Mcivor authority in the supervision undertaken on behalf of the Communities Economic Development Fund to order materials to be distributed and/or redirected in dealing with the authority of Provincial and Federal Government programs? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is proceeding in such a way as to ask a series of questions relating to the allegations which have already been put on the table. Apparen tly the headlines were not high enough or red snough and they're trying to resurrect them.

I have indicated that I will look into these questions and that I will have answers for the House on all of the matters that have been raised. That I am now doing that, Mr. Speaker, I started to do that on Friday afternoon. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, on a matter of privilege, Mr. Speaker , if the Minister desires to take these questions as notice, he can so indicate, That we intend to ask ... --(Interje ction)-- MR . SPEAKER: Order, please . MR . CRAIK: I think it's our privilege, Mr.

Speaker, to continue to ask questions related to this, and if he wishes to take them as notice he can so indicate. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a question to the First Minister, please.

In view of the statement made on Friday that the Winter Works Program giving assistance to the repair of old age pensioners homes is now about completed, or is running out of homes, does the government plan now to extend a similar program to rental proprieties occupied by older people or to other low income groups who are below the age of 65, such as accommocation occupied by single parent families and other kind of low income fixed .. . ? MR . SPEAKER: Policy question. The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, that is a matter of policy which I can advise my honourable friend that we have had under consideration, and will continue to consider in terms of possible implementation at some future date, possibly next fall. I say "possibly".

I would just like to take this opportunity to advise my honourable friend that the administration of the Pension er Home Repair Program although it has gone reasonably well , is not without a great deal of minutia of detail, and that while I share my honourable friend's desire, that we attempt to do more in the way of social programs of improvement and repairs to pensioners 1 housing, that it is not without its pitfalls in terms of the occasional administrative problems, which I am sure honourable members opposite would want us to be very careful that we dot every "i" and cross every 11t11, in terms of the administration of pensioner home repair.

So before we are in a position to extend and double this program in terms of its scope, if we do that too quickly, we will be having additional administrative problems, the kind of which simply give grist to the mill.

March 18, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister then, considering his caution about administrative difficulties, is he prepared to announce this 1505 new rehabilitation program or loan program before the end of June so that those companies now engaged in home repair would be able to properly plan for a fall or winter implementation or execution of such programs, and not go broke in the meantime or cease to function, MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I did not hear precisely what companies my honourable friend was referring to.

The nature of pensioner home repair or any kind of home repair program as such, given the geogt:aPhical diversity of Manitoba, that it1s just not possible to think in terms of formal bids and companies going in to do home repairs . Some repairs are in the order of $100 to $200, 60 , 80 , 100 miles removed from any location where there are constructions companies operating as such. The matter doesn't lend itself to a simplistic answer, yes or no1. in the way in which my honourable friend would like it , MR . AXWORTHY: I have a supplementary.

Then if the Minister cannot do that, could he at least indicate to those companies presently subsidized and supported by the Provincial Govern ment in the home repair business, the kind of program that may be forthcoming so that they can plan their programs accordingly? MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware which companies my honourable friend is referring to as being companies specializing in pensioner home repair activity. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Environmental Manage ment .

With respect to the Delta Marsh Wetland Rehabilitation program, do the minister's answers to the questions raised a few moments ago by the Member for Assiniboia, mean that the government is contemplating expropriation in the Delta Marsh area of Properties that currently are owned privately ? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, first>efforts relative to the area will be by voluntary acquisition.

There is, in the Wildlife Act, and in other legislation, but I'm fairly certain it's in the Wildlife Act, legislation of longstanding which enables the Pr ovince of Manitoba to expropriate land which it feels should be kept for the general public relative to these purposes; that is, the ultimate protection which I have always indicated exists to protect people of Manitoba from individual Americans or indeed individual Canadians . MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, is it the intention of the program entered into, ultimately then to remove all property - and I conf ess Mr.

Speaker that I have a vested interest in the question, but I don't think that precludes my asking it - to remove all property in the Delta Marsh area from private ownership and turn it into a public preserve ? MR . GREEN: No, Mr. Speaker, the program doesn't envisage that, but it does envisage aonsiderably more public availability and public ownership of land within the Delta Marsh. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment .

I would like to ask him if loans made under the Communities Economic Development Fund of $75, 000 or over, require the decision of the Minister in charge, or can the Board make those loans by themselves? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker . MR . GRAHAM: A supplementary question to the Minister then. If a board makes a loan of say, for argument's sake, $5 0, 000, can they then turn around and make a second one for $50 ,0 00 without having the Minister's approval, if it1s to the same company ? MR . GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, under the most recent guidelines that were established with the Communities Economic Development Fund Board of Directors and myself sometime in the fall of 1973, a second loan to the same company in the same way as with the Manitoba Development Corporation would be recommended by the Boa rd but would require the approval of the government. Those are guidelines which we have discussed and I believe are being followed by the Board. MR . GRAHAM: A fu rther supplementary question to the Minister then. Can the Minister indicate whether ministerial approv al was given for a loan to a Mr .

Willard La mirande for $75, 000 , and a further loan· to either Mr. La mirande or Mr. Ben Thompson for the

1506 March 18, 197 4 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) ..... purchase of Smith Cartage in Thompson which has sub sequently burned? lYIR, GREEN: Mr. Speaker , I believe that that particular loan which has some recollection in my mind, was $75, 000.0 0, If that were the case it would not have required ministerial approval, it would be a loan over $7 5, 000. 00. But I am now again relying on my memory. I do remember that particular loan having been advanced. MR. GRAHAM: Another supplementary.

Could the Minister indicate whether adequate protection had been taken with respect to insurance in case of loss? lYIR, GREEN: Well I certainly hope so, Mr. Speaker. Each of the loans that we advance is done through the advice of a solicitor and that kind of protection is sought vis-a-vis every single loan. Whether it is realized sometimes is a matter of argument as to how well you have been advised, but I certainly know that that would be standard practice for the corporat ion. lYIR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm glad to hear that the material to do with the debate on Friday is under investigation. I wonder if the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources would try to confirm that there were employees of the R & M Construction on the payroll who did not work and whose labours were charged to the particular projects; such as the two homes being built by the R & M Construction in Wabowden? lYIR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder whether opposition members should continue to ask questions on matters which I say we are aware of, which are contained in affidavit and which we are going to bring answers for to the House. Every single matter that is raised in that material will be dealt with, perhaps by affidavit, and we will bring back those answeii.'S, But for the honourable mem bers to use the question period to repeat the questions knowing that we have said this, is surely an abuse of the question period. lYIR, SPEAK ER: Order please . The Honourable Member for Wolseley state his point of order. MR . ASPER: Yes , Mr.

Speaker. The point of order is that the Minister is proposing in what he has just said, that there is an impropriety of opposition members asking for information that he says is under investigation. Mr. Speaker, it's equally improper for the government to avoid answering questions in this House by saying a matter is under investigation, such as hosp.ital beds, such as Manitoba Housing Renewal speculation, So , Mr. Speaker, the point of order is this, Mr.

Speaker , the point of order is this - that the re is no preclusion for members of this side from asking any questions. lYIR, GREEN: ... 11ve never said you can't ask questions .. lYIR, SPEAKER: Order please . Order please . Order please. Order please. I do believe , Order please . The Honourable House Leader. lYIR, GREEN: Just these desks and some self-restraint prevents me from going over and punching him in the no se. The fact is that I did not raise as a point of order that I could not ask questions which were under investigation.

I said is it reasonable that material that I said I would bring answers for, should continually be asked for, if I indicated that answers would be brought, I did not say that it should not be asked because it's under investigation. As a matter of fact , it's not under investigation . I am investigating as Minister, responses to the material that is filed and I will bring the answers . lYIR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: On the point of order. The Minister in his lYIR. SPEAKER: Oh, order please . There is no point of order. lYIR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I raise . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order.

Well if the honourable mem ber has one we may have one . MR. CRAIK: I raise a point of order Mr. Speak er. The Minister is assuming in his statement with regard to the questions of the Member for Swan River, that the questions to be placed are all contained in affidavits, and this is not necessarily so, Mr . Speaker. These questions that we have been raising may or may not be contained in the affidavits that the Minister refers to , therefore the right to ask the questions, the privilege to ask the question still remains with the opposition. lYIR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR.

ASPER: Yes, Mr, Speaker , I have a question for the Attorney-Ge neral to begin with.

March 18, 19 74 1507 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. ASPER cont•d) •.... On the basis of the House Leader's answer . MR . SPEAKER: Question please . MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is, does he have any report to give this House on the investigations that are under his control which he undertook to make on the speculation, or the allegations of speculation by members of the MHRC staff in real estate dealings? MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Attorney-General . MR . PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , as soon as the investigations are completed, they will be completed shortly, the report will be referred to the Minister of Health and Social Services who has been charged with the responsibility of reporting to the House for the MHRC . MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health and Social Development . Does he have any information to give this House relative to the investigation he undertook to make and have the information in three weeks, made on January 6, 1974 into the position of acute care beds in Manitoba ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, the matter of beds is under constant review and study by the department. Certain programs are going forward. As I indicated not once , but a dozen times to the honourable member, it is not just a matter of beds, it's a matter of dealing and rationalizing the entire health system. MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Was he then trying to simply deflate the issue in the House when he said on January 6, 1974 ..• MR . SPEAKER: Order please. That question is argumentative and the honourable member knows it. Would he rephrase it. MR . ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, my question is, what was the purpose of his saying to this House on January 6th, 1974 • . . MR . SPEAKER: Order please. I wonder how many times I must say - and the honourable members are aware that we must not have questions of an argumentative nature - and if the honourable members persist I must turn a blind eye . I'm sorry, the honourable member, the rules are ours - they're yours as well as mine. The Honourable Lea der of the Liberal Party . MR . ASPER: Mr.

Speaker , my question to the Minister of Health and Social Development is - why did he say to the House on February 6th - I•m sorry, February 6, 19 74, that he expected to have a report within three weeks on the hospital bed position and that he implied at that point that it would be made available to members of the House ? MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker , the member can draw what implication he wishes. I said there would be a study made within three weeks. It has been made; the acute care shortage which the honourable member tried to make a very great issue of, has in fact disappeared. It disappeared within days.

If he had followed the newspaper stories he would have recognized that administrative hospitals indicated that in their opinion this was a political exploitation of a situation, trying to play on the fears of people . The only thing I want to deflate is his ego. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member of the Liberal Party. MR. AS PER: Yes , Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would be good enough to table the report that he received and which he indicated he would have three weeks ago . MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker , I will not table that report. lt1s not for public consumption. It•s not for the member's consumption.

It •s for the Minister to deal with. There's nothing secret about it. Mr. Speaker, it was for my information to determine whether or not the allegations made in this House had any semblance of truth at all, and I can tell you there was very little truth in it. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Mines and Resources and Environmental Manage ment. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister indicate whether any officials of the Communities Economic Development Fund every brought to his attention the financial difficulties concerning J. M.K. Construction and/or R & M Construction before Friday or Thursday or whenever the affidavits were put before the House ?

1508 Mar ch 18, 19 74 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the matter was never discussed between myself and the Chairman of the Communities Economic Development Fund. I'm not able to say that I can recall any material being presented to me . I will indicate to the honourable member that I don•t read every document that is put on my desk but I do not recall any such material , there was some material for me on Friday , after the allegations that were made by the Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE : Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable the Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manag ement. I wonder can the Minister take under advisement and advise later - when he is checking these documents advise whether Mr. Dan Mclvor had an expense account with the Communities Economic Development Fund? MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, D on Mcivor is a mem ber of the Board of Directors of the Communities Economic Development Fund in the same way as John A. Mac Aulay is a member of the Boar d of Directors of the Manitoba Development Corporat ion. I would think that the same privileges accrued to each Board. MR .

McKENZIE : Mr. Speaker, then I wonder can the honourable Minister advise the House whether Mr. Mclvor, a part of his costs or his expenses were borne by R & M Construction and J. M, K. Construction? MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker , when the Communities Economic Development Fund does something with respect to a borrower, it generally tries to charge that work to the borrower. If in addition, since Mr. Mclvor was appointed by the Communities Economic Development Fund to be on the Board of that particular company, it is quite possible that expenses could be charged by him as a Board Member of that company to the company.

MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Rus sell. MR . GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture, I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture what effect the recent announcement by the Federal Agriculture Minister with respect to packing. houses paying the seven cents subsidy, what effect that will have on the small locker plant operations and small packing houses in the Province of Manitoba, Will they have to buy a license or how will this be handled? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister. MR . USKIW: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day, The Honourable House Leader, MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I propose that we now move to the business, but just before doing so, Mr. Speaker , there was a matter of privilege as affects the entire House and in particular relations between the Speaker and the House Leaders . It was with reference to an editorial written in one of the daily newspapers. I would Prefer to deal with that matter of privilege when the partic ipants involved were all here , namely the Member for Morris, the Member for Portage la Prairie and myself.

I may say that I am going to want to protect the integrity of yourself, Sir, and the members but I would rather do it when the participan ts are here . I wish you would now proceed with the Orders of the Day and Bill No. 7 on se cond reading - no , Mr. Speaker, I would prefer that we go to the motion of the Honourable the Minister of Finance on second reading, MR . SPEAKER: Very well. . . . . , continued next page

March 18, 1974 1509 SUPPLY - CONC URRENCE MR . SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Ho nourable Minist er of Fina nce in respect to the resolution reported from Com mittee of Supply. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CR AlK: Mr. Speaker, I want to take the opportunity on this concurrence motion to make a few comments, statements if you like, regarding Manito ba Hydro. It does not at this point deal with the Ca pital Estima tes which I know we will come to, it deals, Mr. Speaker, generally with areas that would be covered in In terim or Supplementary Supply in a normal fashion.

Therefore I want to take the opportunity at this ti me to make a--(I nterj ection) --Yes . MR . SP EAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Fin ance have a point of ord er ? HON. SAUL CH ERNIACK, Q. C. (Minister of Fi nance) (St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I'm not clear on the item to which the honourable member would be referring. There are many items of course in the Supply Bill but I think it would be helpful if we knew which item, because indeed, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the honourable member is addressing himself to a Ca pital item which I expect will be open for discussion today.

MR . SP EAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAlK: Mr. Speaker, I'm dealing with the general motion, second reading concur rence motion. Therefore I take the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, because I don't want to deal particularly with Ca pital Supply, and I'm using the generality of the motion to be able to include what I want to say at this point. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Fi nance. MR. CH ERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. We do have a motion before us, we have two of them. I believe one was passed, Mr. Speaker, I think that was concurrence in Supplementary Supply.

I believe now we are dealing with concurrence on Interim Supply. I need clarification on that, I'm not sure. Is it on both ?-- (Interjection)- -Both resolutions, Mr. Speaker, I'm now informed that it deals with both. Therefore this still deals with some Supply item, because there is a long list of supply items of course, but surely the honourable member could not be referring to let's sa y the Department of Hi ghways when he wishes to deal with Hydro. Therefore, I think it would be helpful if we knew which item within all the supply items he is dealing with, surely that 's part of it.

Otherwi se it would suggest that concurrences could indeed deal with everything under the sun including Capital. MR . SPE AKER: The Ho nourable Member for Riel . MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the sp ecific item that most of it would have to fall under would be the Executive Co uncil motio n and I think that, Mr. Speaker, I point thi s out at the start of my remarks because I wanted it to be indica ted perfectly well that I did wi sh to take the oppor tunity that is usually accorded on sec ond reading. I held off comment, Mr.

Speaker, in the earlier commi ttee stage on the specific items for the specific purpose of making my comments on second reading of the bill. So the comme nts that I am going to make . . . MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. We are not discussing seco nd reading of the bill but se cond reading of the resol ut ion. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAlK: Mr.

Speaker, I want to be sure and understand here now that I do intend to make some fairly specific comments, specific only to Hydro, but ranging over pri marily governme nt authority with regards to its operation, so I trust that I have your concurrence in speaking on the concurrence motions at this time in this regard. Mr. Speaker, I se ldom take such tim e to write out a speech but I did so on this occasion because I feel that the items have been happening very rapidly, that things have been happening very rapidly particularly in the last week wit h regards to Manitoba Hydro, and particularly, Mr.

Speaker, because the dec isio ns of the government as opposed to the decisions of Manitoba Hydro have been the result, Mr. Speaker, of a Crown corporation being subj ect to the dec is ions of government but having to shoulder very much of the responsibility for those decis ions be the results of it either good or bad. Mr. Spea ker, the relationships between the Manitoba Government and Crown corporations of its own making have been relatively calm compared to that between the Government and Manitoba Hydro - and I to a certain extent - exclude at this time the Manitoba Develo pment Co rporati on.

It has taken nearly six years for the government to comprehend the basic pur poses behind the creation of a public power utility and the sensiti vity of orderly development planning under external politica l pressures. Now they appear, Mr. Speaker, on the brink of poss ibly making yet another mis take.

1510 March 18, 1974 SUPPLY - CONCURRE NCE (MR. CRAIK co nt'

d) It. now seems quite probable that Mr. Schreyer's newly elected Cabinet in 1969 regarded the development plans . . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I would hope the honourable member would mention mem bers by their cons titue ncies and not by name. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I should refer here to the Fir st Mi nister's newly elected Cabinet in 1969 regarded the development plans of Manitoba Hydro for the Nelson River with deep suspicion and just short of a subversive act against the Government.

How else would it have been poss ible for them to disca rd years of planning to listen to and act on the adv ice of disa ffected acade mics and self-pr oclai med experts with no knowledge of the economic or tech nical consequences of interfering with reasonable proposals for development. There can be no correcting of the grave error made in advancing Lake Winnipeg develop ment well out of sequence in accordance with a plan which will never yield benefits to the Province of Manitoba.

The meddling with the flooding of Southern Indian Lake and diversion of the Churchill River to the extent that it cost nearly four times as much today as si milar proposals pres ented in 1969 is no less excusable. The government nevertheless made thes e decisions, the record is quite clear of their responsibility. And although the import and magnitude of the gross misju dgment may not yet be fully understood, there is not much to be gained by dwelling on the errors in thems elves.

In the f11ce of the current energy squeeze even its most rabid opponents would be hard pressed to question the origi nal decision to proceed with Nelson development or the fundamental necessity to proceed with diversion of the Churchill Ri ver.

The Fi rst Minister, in case anyone noticeci, is now amongst the strongest advocates of Nelson development, including flooding of Southern Indian Lake either four feet or eighteen feet lower depending on which report you have on hand, but still an impressive 14 feet above average lake level no matter how you sl ice it; vindication of the former Cons ervative Governme nt and Hydro's position by all means but also an indicator that the Premier can recognize a good thing. It just took a long while and a lot of public money.

It appears that Manitobans may again begin to hear st rong oppos ition to the policies of Manitoba Hydro. The utility, now firmly under the political control of the government, has undergone consid erable changes throughout the past five or si x years. Develop ment planning is carried on in governmental style complete with the lack of clarity, understa nding and the profes si onal judgment whi ch have hampered meaningful discussion of hydro developmen t in recent years .

The intent of the developing agency can be easily disguised by the co!lfus ing termi nology of power development and the public understand ing of proposed developme nts more often confused than aided by public relation statem ents . Unfortunately these methods and cur rent public beliefs about energy can be used to keep the public unaware of what may prove to be the most signifi cant error in hydro policy since David Ca ss- Beggs departed as Man itoba Hydro Chairm an from the Manitoba scene.

A case in point are the current inferences being made by the Governme nt and Manitoba Hydro that Nelson development was and is so mehow dependent on the value and sale of so-called firm energy to the United States . This concept is the root cause of many of the difficulties that have occurred in explaining and understanding the issue of power development and it's manifes ted itself in many of the highly questi onable and incorrect decisions that have and are being made by Manito ba Hydro and the government.

The failure to understa nd and take full advantage of the benefits of generating surplus energy inherently available in a hydro system designed pri marily to look after Manitoba's needs and to aggress ively market these surpluses to ne ighbour ing thermal power systems is contradictory to the original concept of the Nelson development, and with the massive financial commi tments to the prese nt development scheme we have been cornered into a weak bargainin g position wi th the United States.

The benefits of the sale of surplus energy available to a bas ica lly hydro system such as Manitoba 's were recognized in the original Nelson studies and there seems little doubt that the Hydro manage ment at the time fully understood the potential benefits of these surpluses under changing market conditions.

It was planned to develop the hydro- electric resources of the province to most closely fit the provi nce's need, controlling the rate of capital investm ent either by constructing addi tion al thermal capacity or purchasing a small amount of thermal energy on a short-term ba sis when needed, and further reducing net operating costs through sale of probabili ty surplus energy resulting from variability of water flow and guaranteed surpluses

March 18, 1974 1511 SUPPLY - CONCURRENCE (MR. CRAIK cont'd) ..... available between system expansion increments. It was not in tended and seems inconceivable that anyone should now suggest that capacity expansion should be planned on the basis of long-term sales to neighbouring utilities without first giving full regard to integrated system operation and surplus sales. In the confused development period beginning in 1970 some remarkable misjudgments have occurred. Projects of the highest order of benefit were delayed. Those of doubtful or even negative benefit were advanced.

The value of surplus energy was rejected in project analysis and arbitrary limits based on the most flimsy data were imposed on construction projects. The net result was an increase in capital expenditures in the order of $250 million accompanied by a net decrease in power system cap ability and benefits. The legacy is irreversible. These events were allowed to happen in spite of strong criticism, mostly of a non-political nature. Mr. Speaker, I would repeat that, that the opposition to the plans that were undertaken were to a very large extent of a non-political nature.

However the position of the utility management following this debacle was not attrac tive. They were charged with finding at least $20 million per year after 1975 to pay off debts incurred and imposed and imposing substantial rate increases for the debt retirement.

It appears that the realization of this predicament by the government tempered by their continual insistence that a transparently unsound development policy rearrangement was in the best interests of the province caused a panic situation which resulted in their approval of the advancement of installation and commitment of energy from another large Nelson River power plant, perhaps on the theory that a long-term sale probably to the United States of a large block of firm energy from this station may help offset the past mistakes.

Manitoba Hydro has recently announced that a 15-year sale of 1, 000 megawatts or so of generating capacity is planned to the U. S. or Ontario, but it is not known on what basis. It is apparent that capacity expansion beyond the province's need is planned, but it is not obvious whether the purpose is to partially recoup losses, break even or to actually increase revenues. It appears however that regional integration and surplus sales have not received full priority. The position of the United States or even neighbouring Ca nadian utilities--when consider..: ing the U.

S. and perhaps Ontario we should remember our track record with them in power negotiations has not been good--should be carefully considered by the utility before making a final commitment. First of all, those utilities south and west of us have available large coal deposits which can be developed in virtually any size increment and can be operated relatively cheaply, thus a limiting price which we may or may not be aware of is established.

Air pol lution and waste heat discharge standards which were not a serious problem in these areas anyway have been more or less waived by the United States by Presidential Order. So this factor is no longer a constraint on development by U. S. utilities. Even if the price of 12 to 15 mills per kilowatt hour can be obtained in the face of competing energy sources it may be too low for any long-term sales. Costs of paying off existing developments and costs of new con struction may result. in a break even position for Manitoba at best.

However, the true value of a continuous supply of 1, 000 megawatts fed into a system like Northern States Power may in fact be much greater, Mr. Speaker, much greater than 12 to 15 mills per kilowatt hour since at least part of the 1, 000 or so megawatts will be retailed out of the Northern States system at a substantial mark-up by that agency. Unless Manitoba can determine a true value it should not commit any block of firm energy. Secondly, long-term commitments must be evaluated in terms of the cost of accelerating the entire future development and the effects on provincial borrowings.

Considering the alter native of marketing surplus energy the larger the system supplied and the stronger the inter connection the less significant the reliability of energy supply becomes and the more significant total energy output becomes. There have been suggestions that this trading of energy and strong interconnections would somehow tend to make Manitoba dependent on its neighbours for electrical energy supply.

The fact is that Manitoba is in the unique position of having the only substantial supply of hydraulic energy in midwest North America and thus could achieve a dominant position as an energy trader if a policy of developing a hydro system within the pro vince capable of meeting provincial demand or better still regional Canadian demand for this energy form is followed. The risk in proceeding in this direction and tapping a basically hydrau lic system for total available energy at any given time is nil, because capacity to meet the province's needs will have been put in place.

Any surplus energy available from the system as a result of variable water flow is thus available for sale or better at the cost of transmission

1512 March 18, 1974 SUPPLY - CONC URRENCE (MR. CRAIK cont'd) ..... only. Storage and/or thermal capacity must be retained or avail able to meet the provincial load in times of low flow. The policies now proposed tend instead to make Manitoba dependent on its neighbours, not for supply but for markets .

Any capacity put in place in excess of the province's needs immediately places the province in a tenuous bargain ing position, given present regional structures, and negates temporarily a great deal of the market which would be available for surplus from a hydraulic system, thereby establishing a greater price differential between a continuous supply and a variable supply of energy. The length of development sequence for this alternative is not appreciably greater than with a firm sale and therefore seems to be of no advantage in committing any firm power to the U. S.

To illustrate the bargaining position further, if Northern State Power realize that they can obtain a continuous supply of 1, 000 megawatts at long term wholesale prices, they will be more likely to express immediate interest than they would in the proposition that Manitoba could supply, an interruptable or scheduled surplus energy supply, and would indicate that they are prepared to pay a greater price for the continuous supply. However, the costs to Manitoba of providing a continuous supply are substantial and the net return subject to market pressures.

Thus Manitoba stands to lose control of part of its power system and stands to be out maneuvered by U. S. negotiators. This is not to say that Canada should not deal with the U. S. on matters of energy; it is merely an attempt to at this time understand what we are selling so we won't get burned again. The Federal Government hopefully will recognize its obligations through the National Energy Board to approve international power sale agreements, although the Federal Govern ment has to this point failed to intervene in the development and export of electrical energy in Manitoba - despite, despite, Mr.

Speaker, a special obligation to review in detail plans for export in return for Federal financing of transmission facilities in Manitoba, as well an obliga tion in meeting the overall federal responsibility in approval of international agreements. Mr. Speaker, what I'm saying there specifically is that the National Energy Board has never in the past gone contrary to provincial aims and, Mr.

Speaker, have in fact not lived up to their obligations to certain agreements with regards to imposing their rights - and I name particu larly here the transmission facilities' agreement with regards to the Nelson River which were overlooked, Mr. Speaker, no less than three years ago.

It would appear that Manitoba Hydro has already fully committed the construction of major power facilities beyond the province's needs and is well along in negotiations with the United States for the export of firm power without any ap preciable discussion or dis closure of their plans to the public, the Legislative Assembly or the Manitoba Hydro ratepayers. It is doubtful that the utility can be detoured from this course of action, Mr. Speaker, this reckless course of action.

There are no signs that it can elevate itself again to the original concept of Nelson development, that is, to develop a power system economically to meet Manitoba's needs or regional Cana dian needs, and to negotiate the short term sale of surplus energy available out of a provincial or regional system to U. S. or other utilities. Mr. Speaker, those are my comments that I expect will have to be interpreted because many of them are of a technical nature, They are comments, Mr. Speaker, that I think are important to go on the record. Mr. Speaker, I want to say in final

summary that what I have said here is that Manitoba has to some extent, a very large extent, painted itself into a corner with regards to a strong negotiating position on the sale of its electrical energy outside of its own borders. That position would have been very much stronger, Mr. Speaker, had the original plan for the Nelson River been followed; had that original plan stayed away from Lake Winnipeg, with the exorbitant costs, Mr. Speaker, the exorbitant costs that are now catching themselves up. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I have sat here and gave what I felt was a fairly serious comment, and out of the total time I hav:e spoken the Minister of Finance, I say, Mr. Speaker, has deliberately kept up his chatter in his usual sly manner to make sure - to make sure, Mr. Speaker, that he didn't have to listen to it nor didn't want to listen to it and was going to make awfully sure that he was able to run interference from anyone else listening to it. Well, Mr. Speaker, I want to put this on record as well because we are getting very familiar with his antics and let's make sure that we know, Mr.

Speaker, that these are the antics that he pulls whenever he chooses to do so -.so if that's the type of House he wants to conduct that's fine. I've finished Mr. Speaker.

March 18, 19 74 151 3 SUPPLY - CONCURRENCE MR. SPEAKER: The Ho:wurable Minister of Finance sta te his matter of privilege. MR. CHE RNIACK : Yes, Mr. Speaker, you have heard the Honourable Member from Riel make a statement about my actions in the House in the last length of time in which he delivered himself of his written oration there. And I would say, Mr.

Speaker, that that is a criticism of you in that I have not left my seat and I've been under your jurisdiction throughout the period, and I'm not aware that anyone has called my activities to any attention, possibly because I had no one beside me for any length of time - and just the moment before the honourable member shot off at a tangent, I was being addressed by members of the Liberal Party to whom I res po:J.ded very quickly I believe. If that he found offensive, he should look behind him and think about the people who circulate around behind him and make as much noise as anybody else in the House. - MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier we're becoming quite accustomed to the Minister's usual tact ics, and I think that they should be documented. However, I understand his good reason for not really wanting to, you know, listen to it. I understand it com- pletely, because he has shown an abject irresponsibility on all the financial matters of Manitoba Hydro ever since he has taken office, whether he's been there continuously or taken his sab batical during the crucial periods when decisions were being made. I can't say, Mr.

Speaker, with any degree of confidence that I might have said when the First Minister first took his Cabinet position that I might, I think, Mr. Speaker, have granted to him a man who has shown great responsibility in opposition, and I think in his profession. I can at this point, Mr. Speaker, say on the experience of the disaster of Manitoba Hydro alone and the requests that are before us, that he has in any way vindicated any trust that may have been placed in him in 1969 when he took his office, and I think he has good reason, Mr.

Speaker, to sit and turn a deaf ear to the comments that are made from the benches opposite. I think, Mr. Speaker, that the comments that have been made by other people more qualified than I to judge these things , and I'll refer here specifically to men such as Mr. D. L. Ca mpbell, who have presented their case and history has borne them out; others who outside this House have spoken with greater authority are going to be borne out, particularly with regards to the inability, Mr. Speaker, the unaccountability of the actions of this government in financial matters . And the largest single one, Mr.

Speaker, the largest single one, is the inability to look after the best interests of Manitoba from a financial point of view. I want to finish, Mr. Speaker, my comment by saying that I do not lay at the feet of Manitoba Hydro the blame for the largest mistakes that have been made, Mr. Speaker. I expect that they're trying to work their way out of a very difficult situation at the present time. Some of those people at Manitoba Hydro that are in critical positions may wish to assess their own positions to determine whether their integrity is at stake, Mr.

Speaker, in attempting to recoup the losses that have been incurred on them by the decisions of a government following 1969 - aided and abetted, Mr. Speaker, by their chosen guidance, namely Mr. Ca ss-Beggs, who's no longer here, Mr. Speaker, to answer for the mistakes that were imposed by his decisions. I want to reiterate again that the First Minister in his statements - saying that the decisions that have been made and the requirements for a rate increase were always in the making, because it was a large project - are not correct.

They are misleading; I think that the Manitoba people have been deceived and maybe they will continue to be; I think there is a matter of deception involved. I think that the government has to take the full responsibility for the deviations from the original plan. The plan is not as it was originally conceived, and the First Minister is not correct in saying that what we're experiencing now is what was in the cards from the beginning, that's well documented, Mr. Speaker.

But more, even more important - and the question that has to be answered and explained by the government, is why their statements made not even more than twelve months ago were so far wrong; and why their statements made two years ago were so completely wrong; and why they now attempt to hide behind the smokescreen of saying that all of these decisions were in the development scheme from Day One, because they were not, Mr. Speaker. The changes lie entirely at the table of this government. And the increased Hydro rates, which we understand are going to be announced this week, are to a very large measure, Mr.

Speaker, a result of the front end loading that was incurred on this entire development project by the period of three years of

151 4 March 18 , 1974 SUPPLY - CONCURRENCE (MR. CRAIK cont'd) ..... bungling that went on - and the bad decisions and hasty decisions based on bad information that were made, Mr. Speaker, and which we are now saddled with and almost in a position of never being able to overcome except in the next twenty years. Mr. Speaker, that's my comments on this matter at this time and I thank ... MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to make a few comments on the motion before the House. And once again, Mr.

Speaker - the Minister's not in his place - but we find ourselves faced with a bit of distortion of the facts, a little distortion of actually what is going on. We are faced today with a ballot on the feed grains marketing vote, which I'm sure was designed to be misleading to the grain producers of the province. I don't think at any time or any place did the Federal Minister indicate that wheat would be taken out of the Canadian Wheat Board.

And the amount of wheat that basically is used and traded in the Province of Manitoba through individuals or through the Manitoba Marketing Board whereby they take their one cent levy, I think is very minimal - and I think that on the ballot, if the Minister wanted to be fair, he could have put "wheat used for feed". Now the accompanying letter does state that this may be the case, but I think the general inference to be gathered from the ballot is that you are voting for the fact that wheat will also be taken out of the Wheat Board. Our party at no time has signified this.

We have firmly stood behind the Wheat Board and the marketing of wheat, but we do feel that there should be a freedom of choice in the marketing of our oats and barley, and we feel that there should be a free interprovincial movement of this grain. We don't have to go back too many years to find ourselves in a position, in 1971, whereby there was no quotas practically and where our grain was selling - our barley was selling for roughly 35-40 cents a bushel, our oats for about 20-25 - and to feel that we have to be so hung up on supply-management and control of everything, to me is - just doesn't stack up at all.

Our Minister of Agriculture seems to have to be involved in something all the time. First, he was involved in the rape seed vote; he spent full page ads against the producers- I don't know, using the public treasury to do it. Today again, he's off on another tangent. He's - a whole full page ad again - the beef cattle vote, the same thing.

And I would hope that he gets the usual results with his promotion on this one, and possibly he'll start using a little common sense and apply himself as a Minister of Agriculture developing markets for our produce and furthering the interest of the farmers instead of working against them. And a few of the facts that are not known, Mr. Speaker - he seems to infer that if this vote goes - or if the Federal Minister's program goes through, that there will be a major change in the marketing of our grain. I would like to point out, Mr.

Speaker, that in 19 71, out of 370 million bushels of oats that were marketed, 37 million bushels were marketed through the Canadian Wheat Board and 333 million bushels were outside. In barley I would like to say that there were 550 million bushels of barley marketed in the same year 19 71- 72. The Ca nadian Wheat Board handled 289 million, and the remaining 270 million were sold outside of the Board. Now it's indicated by these figures, a great percentage of our grain moving outside of Board jurisdiction now, consequently why is it so important ?

The second question, if domestic market feed grains are takea away from the Canadian Wheat Board, do you wish a provincial agency, marketing agency, to do the job? Well, the figures that I've just quoted Mr. Speaker, signifies the amount of grain that's be ing handled - why should we be forming another board? I would like to ask at this time what has the Manitoba Agricultural Marketing Board done?

They have collected one cent from every bushel of grain that's been sold; it's provided jobs for a few more hangers-on for the NDP party, and it's served no purpose whatever to further the industry of the livestock feeding in the province. It's very enlightening to see that we have one member in the front row across the way, and we have no members sitting in the second row. Mind you I realize, Mr.

Speaker, that we have no farmers over there and we realize that they have no interest in agriculture; their representation in the House shows why. --(Interjection)--Well, I will say that the Minister of Mines and Resources is very seldom out of his seat, he's very attentive. Maybe we haven't got this much to sa y, but what we have to say we are going to sa y it - and if we feel that we have been taken advantage of, which I think that this ballot is out and trying to promote this aim, we certainly will be fighting against it. Another fact - the Member for Ste.

Rose stood up and waved his arms at great length about the beef vote, whereby it was being rushed through- the date on this paper is March 14th,

March 18 , 1974 1515 SUPPLY - CONCURRENCE (MR. FERGUSON cont'd) ..... you have to have your answer in by March 29th - where's anyone going to get another chance to present an alternate view? Possibly if the ballot had been fairly worded it wouldn't be necessary, but this ballot certainly takes an awful lot of explanation. I was in a curling rink this morning for about 10 minutes and the comments about this stacked ballot were just - well, the farmers are not going to buy it. Now, I don't think that I want to say too much more about this, Mr.

Speaker, but I do want to give the Minister fair warning that we will certainly be out explaining that this, the market in the feed grains as we see it - and it will be done in as fair a manner as we can do it, and we will not be slamming a position and rushing a vote through like the Minister is trying to do. Thank you. QUES TION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHE RNIACK: Is it Ways and Means now? Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Mines, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR . SPEAKER: I'll put the question first. QUESTI ON put; MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means for raising the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS MR.

CHAIRMAN: Two resolutions before the House:- Resolved that towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty on account of cer tain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1975 , the sum of $196, 940, 950, being 25 percent of the amount of the several items voted for the depart ment as set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1975, lay before the House at the present session of the Legislature be granted out of the Consolidation Fund. (Passed) One more resolution.

Supplementary Supply:- Resolved that towards making good certain further sums of money granted to Her Majesty for the public service of the province for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 197 4; $3, 48 2, 000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund. (Passed) The Com mittee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Co mmittee of Ways and Means has adopted this resolution, has directed me to report same and asks leave to sit again. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. IN SESSION MR. WILLIAM JEN KINS (Logan) : Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rupertsland, that the report of the Co mmittee be received. {Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CHER NIACK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines, that the resolutions reported from the Co mmittee of Ways and Means be now read a second time and concurred in. (Agreed) MR. GREEN: There's another o:J.e- there's another one. MR . SPEAKER: Do you want these read now?

Resolved that towards making good certain further sums of money granted to Her Majesty for the public service of the province for the fiscal year ending 31st day of March, 197 4, the sum of $3,482, 000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund.

Interim Supply: Resolved that towards making good the supply granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenses of public service for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1975, the sum of $196, 940, 950, being 25 percent of the amount of the several items voted for the department as set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1975, laid before the House at the present session of the Legislature, be granted out of the Consolidated Fund. (Agreed) The Honourable Minister of Finance.

1516 March 18, 197 4 INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. CHERNIACK introduced Bill No. 28,.an Act for granting to Her Majesty certain further sums of money for the public service of the province for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1974(2); and Bill No. 34,

an Act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the province for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1975. (Agreed) MR . CHER NIACK: Mr. Speaker, on a matter of Order now, the bills are ready to be distr ibuted, and if honourable members are so inclined, we can go into second reading. On the other hand, if honourable members - or any one of them - wish to withhold leave, then of course it will then stand as notice and appear on the Order Paper. I don't know, is it tomorrow, Mr. Cl erk? The second reading would be when, if we don't get the unanimous consent? MR.

CL ERK: I'll have it on the Order Paper tomorrow. MR. CHERNIACK: It would be on the Order Paper tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CR AIK: Mr. Speaker, we'd prefer to go on, as the Minister has indicated, into second reading - and if anything, hold back Capital Supply until after the committee meets to morrow morning until we have the MDC information. MR. CHERNJACK presented Bill No. 28, anact for-granting to Her Majesty certain further sums of money for the public service of the province for the Fiscal Year ending the 31st day of March, 197 4 (2) for second reading. MOTION presented.

MR . SPEAKER: Right. The Honourable Minister of Finance, because if he doesn't speak now, he'll have given up his right to speak for the first time on the bill, except in closing. The Honourable Minister of Finance. BILL NO. 28 MR . CHE RNIACK: Well, Mr. Speaker, frankly I don't think that it is necessary to deal with this in any length at all. But I did want to draw attention to honotirable members of a printing error which appears - now then, we're dealing with Bill 28, I believe - which appears in Bill 28 - I'd like to draw honourable members attent ion to that.

On the second page of Scheuule "A" the departmental number for Colleges and Universities Affairs is printed as Roman Numeral VII - when honourable members will realize that the one before that is also seven - the correct number should be Roman Numeral XVI. Now, I did give a preliminary review of this earlier when I filed Supplementary Supply, and any direct questions that may be asked of me, I can try to deal with them again under Committee of the Whole. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . EINARSON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a few comments in regards to this bill, as it relates to the amounts of money that the Province of Manitoba is spending, and I would like to relate further comments to the Department of Agri culture. My colleague from Gladstone was referring to a recent letter accompanied by a ballot that was sent out to, I would hope, the most eligible farmers allowed to vote. But, Mr. Speaker, I want to deal with this matter first and add on some further details, Mr. Speaker.

And I would like to indicate in relating to this questionnaire, I want to say that the Minister of Agriculture has once again demonstrated his capacity to mislead and distort the facts insofar as the farmers of this pro vince are concerned. It seems as though he is not able to handle his own responsibilities here in the Province of Manitoba, but continues to interfere in the areas of federal jurisdiction and I might add that his colleagues in Ottawa are in support of much that is going on insofar as the legislation, as it pertains to farmers in Manitoba and other parts of Canada is concerned.

I want to read some of this, Mr. Speaker, some of the questions here. His latest venture into misinforming farmers as he did on the rape seed issue, Mr. Speaker, is contained in a letter which he sent out to Manitoba farmers asking their support for his views on the marketing of feed grains. There are a list of enactures he's contained in the letter he has sent out to farmers. No. 1: The question, that eastern Canada has traditiona lly been the largest market for western feed grains. The answer is, Mr. Speaker, the largest market for western feed grains has been in western Canada, and not in eastern Canada.

I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, that in regards to this matter there has been some considerable dispute insofar as our marketing's concerned in this province. The Minister of Agriculture has - and by the way, I asked a question today, if he could inform this House as to what organizations that he had

March 18, 1974 15 17 BILL 28 (MR. EINARSON cont'd ) ..... approached before he decided to send out this ballot, and the answer he chose to give me, Mr. Speaker, and as far as I was co:wer ned, it was not - the quest ion was not answered, but rather he chose to say that it has been an ongoin g process of di alogue between his department and the Department of Agric ulture for the last many months. I thought my question was most specific and to the point. And I was referring to a question as related to the ballot that is being sent out. I'm fully aware that he has been in consultation with Mr.

Otto Lang and the Minister of Agri culture in Ottawa, and apparently not meeting with much success inso far as his efforts are conc eri1ed. And what I wanted to know was, and I think if the Mi nister is in contact and knows what the farmers are thinking in Manitoba, he does have official farm organizations in this province which he could contact and probably various com modity grou ps . But in view of the answer he's given me, I took it, Mr. Speaker, that he didn't consult any of the organizations . I ju st more or less had to accept that. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, I'm correct in sa ying that of the total amount of coarse grains that are prod uced, only three out of ten bushels are handled through the Wheat Board and som e say that it could be even less than that. So what are we so concerned about ? The second question, Mr. Speaker, that involves in this whole matter, if it will be more difficult for the Canadian Wheat Board to esti mate the amount of grain available for export at any particular time, and therefore the Canadian Wheat Board will have to be more cautious in making sales com mitments . I would like to say in answer to that, Mr.

Speaker, that they've always been doing this in spite of the fact that only three out of ten bushels of feed grains are marketed through the Wheat Board. Now, there may be some excuse, but as far as I can gather from the official statisti cs, this is the case. My third question - the third question here is the marketing of western grains, both for domestic use and for export, became a national policy in 1949, when the government of Canada asked the governments of the three prai rie provinces to pass legisla tion supporting the Ca nadian Wheat Board.

The legisla tion referred to was to include oats and barley under the Board, which hitherto had controlled the marketing of wheat only. In the same paragraph it states the legisla tion is st ill on the statute books of Manitoba. What he does not state, is that in 1961 the Ca nadian Wheat Board passed a regulation allowing the sale of off- Board grains . I think this is an importa nt thing to know, Mr. Speaker, and in particular for the farmers of the province, when the Minist er is sending out a ballot of this kind. The government of Manitoba conducted a referendum on November 24th, 19 51.

Actually in question to this, the referendum in question was held in 1948, asking farmers to indicate if they were in favour of including oats and barley under the Canadian Wheat Board.

Part 2, Mr. Speaker, of this ballot implies that the Canadian Wheat Board has control of marketing of all feed grains, which is not true . The question, Sir, No. 1, suggests that all wheat, oats and barley are marketed through the Board, which is false. For examples, I want to say, Mr. Speaker, in the crop year 1971 - 72 out of a total of 648 millio n bushels of wheat marketed in that year, 612 million bushels were marketed through the Canadian Wheat Board, and 71 million bushel s were marketed outside theBoard.

Out of a total of 370 million bushels of oats marketed in 1971 - 72 crop year, 37 million bushels were marketed through the Canadian Wheat Board and 330 million bushels ou tside the Board. I think, Mr. Speaker, these are figures that would bear out and are very import ant for the farmers of Manitoba to know before they mark this ballot. I want to carry further, Mr. Speaker. Out of a total of 550 million bushels of barley marketed in 1971 - 72, the Canadian Wheat Board handled 28 9 million bushels and the remaining 270 million bushels were marketed through the Canadian Wheat Board. I would like to add, Mr.

Speaker, question No. 2 is just as misl eading because it implies that the Canadian Wheat Board handles all of our domes tic market. My collea gue from Gladstone mentioned the tact that the lVllnister had used the news media to advertise the rapeseed vote. I say, Mr. Speaker , that he has once again used the press to advertise som ething that he hoped that he would be able to convince the farmers that the Minister of Agr iculture knows better than any farmer in the Province of Manit oba. The

1518 March 18, 1974 (MR. EINARSON cont'd) ..... question was asked, "what was the cost to the taxpayers to put an ad of this kind in The Co-operator ?" Well, Mr. Speaker, he mentioned a hundred or two hundred dollars. I can say, Sir, from my experience in election campaigns knowing recently what it cost to put just a very small ad in one corner of a page, that it would cost at least ten times that in order to get his point across. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, when we're talking about the amounts of money that is being passed through this Legislature that the Minister while taking the method he's using to advertise some things that are going to affect the economic well being of every family farm in the Province of Manitoba, that I want to suggest to him that he would be better advised before he expends this amount of mo:1ey on this kind of advertis ing that he had a closer contact with the people in the rural area. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, there's another area that has become very contentious and people are wondering - he talks about a stay option in the rural areas of Manitoba. And I've asked questions about the home economists who are now going to lose their jobs some of them in the rural parts. They're going to expand the areas in which they have to serve, and I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that it's going to be a kind of service that's going to deteriorate.

I don't know whether the Minister of Agriculture is having trouble with the rest of his colleagues of the front bench in trying to hold his end insofar as his responsibilities are concerned to the rural people of Manitoba, but it would indicate to me that when the Minister of Health talked about the core area of the City of Winnipeg, seemed to me are going to dictate insofar as the services are concerned as they pertain to our home economists. And I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that I speak for the rural parts in this area, because I've had many phone calls, and they are concerned people, of just where are we going when we allow the government or the government is going to take out these services that have been vital and important, because their task has been difficult enough in the past without having to make it more difficult as they are going to do in the future. I just want to make one other comment, Mr. Speaker, in regard to this whole feed grains issue.

The Minister said he's had a di alogue with the federal counterparts, he's been so con cerned of the Wheat Board being maintained as a sole marketing agency for our wheat, barley and oats, that I'm wondering just how successful has his Coarse Grains Marketing Commission been operating in Manitoba. I think this is the area which the Minister is more concerned with and wants to camouflage it, Mr.

Speaker, by the publicity that he's been trying to get, and has probably attained through the press with his confrontation with the Federal Minister who is responsible for the Wheat Board and also the Minister of Agriculture. I would have thought, Mr. Speaker, had the Minister of Agriculture in this province been doing some vocal thinking on the cattle situation and the prices that the farmers are getting who are selling cattle now and the losses they are taking, this is a more serious matter, Mr.

Speaker, I think than worrying about the marketing of our oats and barley, because he has already established the minimum prices they're going to get for their grains, and I think that if he's going to save not only for the farmers of this province, but I want to say, Mr. Speaker, and I can't emphasize too strongly, that the actions that are being perpetrated by the Federal Government and this Minister of Agr iculture in Manitoba through his Co arse Grains Co mmission in Manitoba are going to have a detrimental effect to the city people in all parts of this province.

They talk about the high cost of meats right now, but I want to suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that six months, eight months hence you might look back in Hansard and read when I say that the cost of red meats is going to be a good deal more than it is right now, because of the actions of both governments that they have taken in the past. I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that this is a very important matter and the Minister would have been well advised if he'd had more concern and given some direction to the Minister of Agriculture in Ottawa insofar as trying to solve the serious problem that the cattle producers and the hog producers are facing in the feeding of their livestock. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I have some very brief comments to make on the second reading of this Act. The comments I have to make arise out of a statement that was made by the Honourable Member for St.

Matthews - I'm sorry he isn't here - the other night when he was speaking, when he referred to the city as being to blame for the lack of public housing or the continuing of public housing in the City of Winnipeg area. Mr. Speaker, I, to say the least think that's a very unfair accusation and it's a one-sided accusation and the mem ber should have realized that the city was only asking - when they were working with the govern ment regarding public housing in Manitoba that the city was not to blame for the continuation

March 18, 19 74 15 19 BILL 28 (MR . F. JOHNSTON cont'd) ..... of public housing nor were they blocking it in any way shape or form as _the Member from St. Matthews has said. Really it's another case, Mr. Speaker, of the government and government members believing that everybody's out of step but them and unless you agree 100 percent with what they are doing that you are wrong, and you'll always be wrong, you always were wrong, and it just keeps continuing and continuing. They don't believe that anybody has any experience other than them regarding urban develop ment or subdivisions or anything of that nature. Mr.

Speaker, the reasons the city were not in agreement with all the public housing projects that were put forth by the Provincial Government was very simple; as simple as the fact that when you have large housing developments you have to have proper zoning, and if areas are zoned in such a way, Mr. Speaker, that they will have the best land use, requests for changes to zoning usually have to have questions arise as to whether you have enough schools available, whether you have the population density of an area proper.

But the government chose to say the reason we don't have more public housing is because the city is blocking it. And the city has every right, every right to ask the Manitoba Public Housing Coporation to abide by the rules and regulations which are laid down by the city. We all well realize that there is a shortage of housing, but you don't accomplish it by just using a strong arm and pushing upon the city what you want and what they might not want. Mr. Speaker, the Member from St. Matthews chose in his few remarks the other night to blame the city because the public housing was not going right.

In fact I don't have it in front of me but I think he used the reference that they were an unfriendly group in this respect, and also that is unfair. They have been given their jobs to do on environment in the City of· Winnipeg and that is their responsibility. And it's not unlike, Mr. Speaker, when we had Metro in the City of Winnipeg, when we had Metro and municipalities in the City of Winnipeg, and cities, and the applications for rezoning were to come through to Metro.

It wasn't unusual for a city or a municipality to go down and represent themselves before the Metro Government to debate whether this was the proper application for the land or should this be rezoned and more so express the wishes of the people of that area. And this is really what is happening as far as the city is concerned. Rezoning has been applied for in many cases and they ani represent ing the people in the area, they' re also representing good development in the area. Now if the government would come forth and say, well you know you're wrong and we're right and prove why, this would be all right.

But it is my understanding in even the things I read the govern ment doesn't think they have to prove themselves right, they don't have to do that, they don't have to go through the procedures that everybody else goes through--(Interjection)--That's right. They are right by divine right. And we have found that many of the areas where they have been asked if they've made the studies regarding schools, etc. , have not been properly done. They haven't had to do what other people do to have a development. So, Mr.

Speaker, I rose on this debate, this particular one because it was close to when the member made the statement, and say it's an unfair state ment and I believe that the reasons for the public housing not moving as fast as it is is the government is seeing some of the error of their ways the way they are doing it, and as usual are trying to find somebody else to blame. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKEN ZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a few comments I'd like to put into the record before we pl],ss along Bill No. 28 which grants the government certain sums of money for the public service of the Province of Manitoba. And I first of all, Mr. Speaker, must expre

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-56
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 56.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	158cb6b192e8060abdfb80c36156ba43073d3494

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).