VOL. 3 NO. 99 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JUNE 22, 1978

June 22, 1978 The House met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 4742 NM - 1 Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: and the Environment. MM. MURPHY: STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs Mr. Speaker, I wish to express a very serious concern about interference with the environmental monitoring project for the spruce budworm spray programme. MR. NEARY: What a joke! MR.

MURPHY: Some of my field staff employed on the prOject in an area near Glenwood have been pursued, questioned and•bothered by unidentified persons and certain test materials have been removed by an unauthorized individual. There is also evidence that government property has been tampered with resulting in the loss of valuable samples and information. I am hereby issuing a warning that these occurrences pose a definite threat to the monitoring project as they could render the studies invalid.

Besides the incidents described,I am very concerned that the presence of inexperienced persons in the vicinity of the sampling equipment may cause false results. For example, certain flying insects could be attracted to such people resulting in unnaturally high catches in an insect trap. Conversely birds might be frightened away from a trap in location thus producing a false picture of the'local bird populations. A monitoring project represents a heavy commitment of staff and operating funds by both the provincial and federal governments.

Approximately forty people are involved and much money has already been spent since the project began on May 1st. Monitoring of the spray programme is being done not only for the govenment's benefit but also to protect the health and environment of the people of Newfoundland. MR,NEARY: There is no doubt about that.

• June 22, 1978 MR, SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: members not interject. MR. MURPHY: Tape No. 4742 NM - 2 Order, please! Order, please! Sit down. Order, please! I must require that hon. The report will be made public as was the report on the 1977 monitoring project. Future decisions by the government concerning spruce budworm control programmes will be based in part on these reports. No other monitoring is being conducted in this Province.

I strongly request anyone who may be involved in such acts of interference to seriously consider the implications of ruining the monitoring project and jeopardizing the obtaining of meaningful results and to forthwith discontinue any such activities. MR. NEARY: statement? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: That warrants a ministerial Hear, hear! ' The hon. member for Conception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, I wish we had had the benefit of a copy of the release, but we did not have that,of course, not to the best .of my knowledge anyway. I was interested to hear the minister's statement. We all are.

We of course on this side do not recommend, condone i•. any way anybody breaking the laws of the land. However, people are oftentimes led' by example. The way I understand it is the insecticide and herbicide act in this Province is quite specific, and to the best of my knowledge the Miniter of Justice or no other member of the government has taken any action, in any way, in any geographical area of this Province to enforce it, none People have been phoning the Mounted Police and everything. They say it is out of their hands, they cannot do anything about it.

Now then, we are told that the purpose for the spray is for the health of the people. Now what authority says that, please? Where is your health authority on that one, that it is for the

June 22, 1973 Tape No. 4742 NM - 3 MR. NOLAN: benefit of the people? Now the minister continuously has refused,on at least one day that I can recall, four our five questions on just this subject and others from the Leader of the Opposition, and there was no reply. MR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. W. ROWE: Oh,look whit has happened. MR. NEARY: The constitutional expert. MR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. member for Conception Bay South in responding to the ministerial statement just issued by the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment is ranging into the field of the spray programme per se and into other areas not covered by the ministerial statement, number one. Number two, the hon. member is entering into the realm of debate. The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs is concerned as he said in his statement about the environmental Monitoring programme being carried out in Glenwood,which was specifically mentioned in the statement,. and actions being taken by citizens there.

And the statement does not address itself to the spray programme, whether it is a good or bad spray programme, whether it should happen or other acts under provincial jurisdiction or federal jurisdiction. So therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the hon. member is ranging into the area of debate and somewhat irrelevant to the particulars of the statement at hand. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I think perhaps the hon. member toward whom the point of order was raised wants to speak on it, understanding. That was my

I June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4742 NM - 4 MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. May I say, again I do not have a copy of the minister's statement, but it related to the spray programme. He related to the health of the individuals. He related to the environmental hazards, This is what I was addressing myself to. What am I supposed to talk about in replying, •

• June 22, 1978 Tape 4743 PK - 1 Mr. Man: as the hon. member suggests - the energy programme for the Province? We are quite prepared to do that at the proper time. MR. SPEAKER: On the point of order;as I understand the subject matter of the Ministerial Statement-in general/ was the monitoring of the spray programme or the effects thereof. With subject to subject matter,I think the hon. member was within the subject matter. I would point out that the nature of the remarks on a comment by a Ministerial Statement are ouite specifically suppose. to be comment thereon, or a request for explanation.

Pehate is precluded. SO I draw this to the attention of the hon. member. MR: NOLAN: Yes. Just to conclude, Mr. Speaker, the situation is that apparently some people have,according to the minister,have done or committed some action or acts that are preventing the programme from going ahead. MR. NEARY: The Tory spray. MR. NOLAN: Now the fact is. As it an illegal act that was committed, or acts? AN HON. MEMBER: Or is it just for publicity? MR: NOLAN: And the other question is--if you honestly believe as a parent that the life of your child or children or your parents was in danger,how would you react? MR.

NEARY: The Minister of Forestry and Agriculture (inaudible) SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR: SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to announce that my colleagues in Cabinet have approved the appointment of Peter G. Withers to the position of Chairtan of the Board of Directors of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, - SOME HON: MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. DINN: - and as Commissioner of Housing. Mr. Withers is at present the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and will be succeeding in his new position Mr.

Albert Vivian who retires on July 4, 1978.

Tape 4743 PK - 2 June 22, 1978' MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: MR. MURPHY: Retires under duress. Mr. Withers,44 - Talk about building supplies. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, Oh! MR. DINN: Mr. Withers,44 years of age and a native of Carbonear, is a career civil servant, having joined the public service in the Department of the Auditor General in 1950.

He transferred to the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing as Assistant nirector of Local Government in 1967, was subsequently promoted to Director of Local Government Affairs, Assistant Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs and was appointed as Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing in June 1976. Mr. Speaker, I am confident that Mr. Withers will bring to this position the experience and expertise required to further develop and expand vitally important housing policies in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Lewisporte.

MR: F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, we listened with interest to the comments made by the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, and we welcome, of course, the appointment of Mr. Peter Withers to the Chairmanship of the Board of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. MR. NEARY: One of their buddies they have got to put in there. MR. F. WHITE: We have found Mr. Withers to be very understanding of the municipal structure in this Province. And I am sure that if he is left onhis own, Mr.

Speaker, and not interferred with by the minister that he will probably do a very good job as Chairman of the Newfoundland and Labrador. Housing Corporation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. F. WHITE: And that is our concept of that, Mr. Speaker; if Mr. Withers is given the chance to do something down there I am sure he will without having to phone the minister every hour to get approval: MR. PECKFORn: A competent man. . _ MR. WEARY: Or take orders from Craig Dobbin.

June 22, 1978 Tape 4743 PK - 3 MR. F. WHITE: Now, Mr. Speaker, in connection with Mr. Vivian, I think the Minister owes the House a little more detailed explanation about why Mr. Albert Vivian is leaying,Mr. Speaker. We'have had - I do not want to connect the two, but with reports going around about investigations into the Housing Corporation and so on, I think the Minister owes the House a complete and full explanation with respect to this matter. SOME HON: MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. WHITE: And, of course, we would also like to know - MR: NEARY: (Inaudible) that investigation will never take place. MR.

WHITE: We would also like to know, Mr: Speaker, who the new Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing is going to be. I assume it is going to be Mr. Clarence Randell, a very efficient young man from Central Newfoundland and we will look forward to seeing whether or not that comes about, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: $1,E00 to bring him in from Gander. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: It is too bad.We could make them retroactive. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I have got the answer to Question No. 85 in the name of the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). What are the names of those persons who as of a current date are members of the Board of Management of The Hospital at Carbonear? Showing in each case' (

a) The date in which he was appointed; (

b) The term of his appointment; and (

c) The title of the position held, be it chairman, vice-chairman, member or otherwise? And what is the value of amounts payable to members of the Board in respect of (

a) a per diem allowance; (

b) travel, meal, and accommodation expenses; and (

c) annual salary in connection with the performance of his duties in this respect? The period of appointment: first of all,let me give the names; the Chairman of the Carbonear Hospital Board is Mr. John Rorke, and the date of his appointment is April 1, 1976. The members are Mr. G. Earle, Mr. S. T. Jones, Mr. L.F.C. Pike, Mrs. Patricia Rorke, Mr. L. McNarama, Mr, A. Douglas Moore, L1.B., Dr. A. T. Rowe, Mr. Harold Dawe, Mr. William Saunders, Sr.,

June 22, 1978 MR. H. COLLINS: Tape 4744 EC - 1 Mr. 0. Parsons, Mr. Calvin Greene, Mr. John D. Anderson, Mr. Wendell Harnum,and Mr. G. Cummings, who represents the Department of Health, In terms of per diem allowances, nil; travel, meal and accommodation expenses, out-of-pocket travel expenses only; annual salary in connection with the performance of duties in this respect is nil. I also have the answer to question number 88 which deals with the board of the Grand Falls hospital.

The chairman of the board there is Mr: Jack Baker; members are Father Grace, John Moore, Eric Cumby, Robert Newhook, Walter Critchley, Hubert Smith, A. K. Evans, Mr. J., Forbes Browne, Dick Duder, Welwyn Bleckmore, Garfield Young, Retis Hancock and Hubert Barnes. And the same terms and conditions apply; there is no per diem, there is no salary, out-of-pocket expenses are paid. And question number 89 deals with the Carbonear hospital which I have already answered. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Hear, hear: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, I direct this question to the Premier, Sir. Although it is a matter of health, affecting the health of the Province, I direct it to him as the leader of the government because I believe it is becoming an extraordinarily serious matter and will become more and more serious as time goes on. From reports, Sir - and I do not have any inside information obviously, so the thing can change from minute to minute or hour to hour - from reports, Sir, it seems as if the lab and X-Ray technicians have now settled in for a long, hot summer together with the Treasury Board because of the recalcitrance

• • June 22, 1978 Tape 4744 EC - 2 MR. W. ROWE: of the Treasury Board and so on on these reasonable demands. Mr. Speaker, will the Premier tell the House what procedures and what things are being done, what procedures are being taken in order to insure that this most vital aspect of the medical services of the Province is going to he performed in at least some kind of a satisfactory way for the people of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the strike of the lab and X-Ray technicians is one of great concern to us.

It is one that seems to have reached an impasse between Treaiury Board and the union itself. In a normal strike situation, of course, these run as the normal course of events. In this particular regard where health and safety of individuals are of paramount importance, we hope that it is going to be resolved. I know of the Department of Labour being involved.

I have not had an update on exactly what has progressed there, and Treasury Board are in continuous contact and the President of Treasury Board can bring us up to date on exactly what progress, if any, has been made, But, it is something that concerns the government and something that hopefully will resolve itself in the normal way. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary on that, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. W. ROWE: The answer, Sir, was not very satisfactory.

I did not hear any specifics as to what the government is doing or is trying to do with regard to providing some alternate procedures to guarantee at least a minimum level of health service in this regard to protect the health of our people. Is there any truth to reports that I have heard, Sir, going around that the government

June 22, 1978 Tape 4744 EC - 3 MR. M. ROWE: intends to bring in legislation during this session of the House,or perhaps in the Fall session of the House,in order to. prevent by legislation strikes in certain aspects of the Civil Service including, for example, lab and X-Ray technicians? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, there is no general intention to bring in that sort of legislation at this time. There may have to be some changes depending on circumstances at the time, because the one thing that this government or no other government can do is have citizens' health in jeopardy.

But we certainly hope it does not come to that. That has happened in the past, but hopefully it will not come to that. But I would

June 22,1978 Tape 7o 4745 AH71 PREMIER MOORES: like to ask the Minister of Health to reply as to what precautions are being taken on how the hospitals are presently operating. MR. NEARY: Why do you not ask one of the page boys? You will get more satisfaction. MR.SPEAKER: Hon.Minister of Health. MR.H.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the situation has not changed too much ill terms of information which I can give.and what I gave about a week ago.

With the lab and X—ray technicians' strike some of the smaller hospitals in the Province,and mainly the cottage hospitals, the government operated hospitals, the strike will and is posing some difficulties to us there by virtue of the fact that there are not management people, there are no qualified management people in those small hospitals to be able to take up the slack and do the work which normally would be done by the people in the bargaining unit.

In the larger hospitals across the Province, there are a number of management people who can very effectively, very efficiently carry out the role of the people in the bargaining unit. How long management people can continue that exercise is open to conjecture, I suppose,but I would venture to guess that they cannot go on for too long because we are in a period in Newfoundland now with the Summer coming on, the Summer here,in fact,where people are looking forward to their vacations and so on and so forth,so time would be limited.

With regard to what plans are in place, we have in the larger hospitals across this Province a number of boards, practically all of the larger hospitals are operated by boards of aanagemant where we have good administration in place,and in addition to that those people are doing and are capable of doing a tremendous job, not for the government or for the House of Assembly,but for the people of Newfoundland. And I an sure that they will be able to cope with the situation through the contingency plans which they have put in place.

With regard to matter specifically related to negotiations,' am sure my colleague can allude to that. I understand

• June 22,1973 Tape No. 4745 AH-2 that some additional things have been put on the plate in terms of an offer to the bargaining unit and I am sure my colleague would explain that. Other than that, Mr. Speaker, I cannot think of much information I can give. MR.NEARY: You have not said anything yet. MR.COLLINS: Well,if the hon. member figures'I have said nothing, that is fine if he does not understand it. I did not think we had to put everything in baby talk but if he wants it in baby talk I will go over it all again. But, Mr.

Speaker, as I see it that is about all the information I .can give and I would hope that the health needs of the people can be met. MR.W.ROWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: Hon.Leader of the Opposition. MR.W.ROWE: I understand that the Minister of Labour, Sir, is out of the Province so presumably there must be an acting Minister of Labour. Is that correct? The President of Treasury Board is acting as Minister of Labour? HR.DOODY: That is right. MR.W.ROWE: Oh my God: IHZ.DOODY: All the X-ray and Lab technicians will be sprayed now. Mr.

Speaker, I would not address this question to the Treasury Board President because,of course,he is an interested party, I am not saying there is any divisions in the government because they are all collectively respousiblelbut he is obviously personally involved in this as minister and I would not ask the question of him.

But what I wanted was a resume of the state of negotiations and whether in fact an impasse has been reached,as mentioned by the Premier,or whether there is room for negotiation on both sides, whether the parties are deadlocked and have refused now to sit down one with the other„or whether there are still negotiations going on. But I hesitate to ask the Treasury Board President, Sir., since he is the party who is intimately involved.

• • • • June 22,1978 Tape No. 4745 AH-3 MR.NEARY: Ask him if he is going to appoint a conciliation board to look into himself. MR.W.EOWE: It is a ridiculous situation. I would ask the Premier if he can give the information,if not if he would take notice of it for tombrrow,and secondly, Sir, I would ask him if he would not mind in the interest of the people appointing one of his other colleagues as acting Minister of Labour and not have an interested party also acting as a man who should be above the battle and should be involved in •

June 22, 1978 MR. W.N. ROWE: • in these negotiations? MR. S. `TEARY:' MR. SPEAKER: MR, S. NEARY: MR. MAYNARD: Tape 4746 DW - 1 watching rather than participating He never thought of that. lion. minister. Conflict of interest. Mr. Speaker,I will try to answer it in as unbiased a way as poisible.The situation is the Deputy Minister of Labour and Manpower, Mr. Blanchard over the weekend, this past weekend worked with both the Treasury Board negotiators and the union negotiators to try to reach some sort of a settlement, some sort of a compromise.

He found?as I understand it,that he could not accomplish that and he asked whether or not Treasury Board had anything else to offer or any other solution to offer. And yesterday morning we offered the' union,since it was apparent that we could not come to any agreement through negotiations,we offered the union binding arbitration by the appointment of an arbitration board.

To the best of my knowledge the union has not-replied to that as yet,but it is in our view a very-sensible way of resolving the dispute lehere arbitration is binding on both parties.I am sure as soon as the union has time to consider and get back to our people through the deputy minister who is co-ordinating the effort that I will be able to inform the House or inform the public as such. But to the best of my knowledge there has not been a reply from the union,or at least neither one has been reported to me. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Which hon.lmntlemen 'have asked for supplementaries?

A supplementary, the hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Sir, would the Premier or the Minister of Health be good enough to give me a little information? If I may be permitted a very brief

preamblej have had a number of calls in

June 22, 1978 Tape 4746 DW - 2 MR. NOLAN: recent days from people who have been delayed from going into the hospital• One I can think of,for example,is a gentleman who recently suffered a heart attack,was brought in. had angina pains and so on,went through the various tests and he is now,as anyone who has suffered from that problem in their own lives, very, very concerned. He was ordered by his doctor to go in to have various tests done, just Wednesday past,in fact,and he cannot do it.It has been put off for a month.

So the question I am trying to arrive at - and I know the minister could not provide the adequate information today, but perhaps he would do it tomorrow-is how many people are now being put off directly because of this unrest in the labour situation in the hospitals? I mean,how many people medically are on'hold'is what I am asking,and I would like to have that information from all the hospitals concerned if the minister could have his officials get it,please. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure the hon. member would not expect me to be able to provide that information now but I will give him the undertaking to look into that during the afternoon, evening and morning to see if I can give him a realistic statement on it. MRS. MCISAAC: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary,hon. member for St. George's,then a supplementary hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir. Then .I will recognize an hon. member on a different subject. MRS. MCISAAC: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health this question: • ,

June 22, 1978 Tape 4746 DW - 3 MRS.

MCISAAC: I think I understood him to say that the larger centres or the larger hospitals in Newfoundland are equipped to handle emergencies as far as the management is concerned,or supervisory staff may be equipped to handle emergencies.But I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he can tell me whether or not the hospital in Stephenville and the one in Port aux Basques would be equipped to handle emergencies such as if a person was brought in,an accident victim or somebody hemorrhaging or something like this, are they equipped to type blood and in other ways are they equipped to sage the. lives of those people?

Because if you come in hemorrhaging naturally you certainly do not have time to get shipped into Corner Brook or St. John's. Now are the supervisory staff in those hospitals equipped to handle thattype of an emergency? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: It is my understanding,and I have not seen too many exceptions to this rule yet,that in the event of emergencies anywhere that the members of the bargaining unit have undertaken to have people return to work to take care of any particular emergency.

How well that might be working is difficult for me to say at this particular:moment because I suppose getting one back to work would first of all depend on whether the hospital administration could make contact with the lab and X-ray technicians. In some cases it is a lab and X-ray techniciam,and in other cases it is a lab technician and the X-ray technicians is another person. I would certainly undertake to have a look at those two hospitals for the hon. member the same as I have done for the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) if that would be satisfactory. MR.

SPEAKER: The final supplementary on this subject. Hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir.then the hon. gentleman for LaPoile.

June 22, 1978 Tape 4746 DW - 4 MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the Minister of Health and again it is a kind of question that he may not be able to answer at this point in time but I would like

June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4747 NM - MR. SIMMONS: him to, at the very least,take it under advisement or check out for me a case similar to the one made reference to by my colleague from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan), I had representation yesterday from a parent who had arrived in town on the instruction of a doCtor who had referred the daughter of the parent concerned, a ten or eleven year old daughter,in for attention to a kidney problem.

Now I understand that the matter is already critical. -*I understand this from a doctor - and that she should have had attention by now,and I understand there are very serious medical ramifications if it is not attended to within a few days. The x-rays had been done in the sending community some days ago and were forwarded here.

The family arrived in town only to find out that the x-ray was in another hospital and the doctor could not get access to it, And I have just learned now in the last half hour that the family is gone out of town again, somewhat in desperation and not knowing any Other way of appeal or way of changing this. I raise it out of a matter of concern for the youngster. I understand that if something is not done fairly soon she could lose a kidney because of the delay in getting attention to the problem. I wonder if there is some mechanism whereby we can have that kind of an emergency attended to. MR. F.

WHITE: The minister, would the minister get her in? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H.COLLINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member said when he stood in his place, he would not expect me to have the information on every case of people coming to St. John's or being referred to the different hospitals. If he would like to let me have the name and the circumstances surrounding the case,I will certainly have a look at it and be glad to. •

June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4747 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile, followed by the hon. gentleman from Terra Nova. MR. MARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for the Environment, Sir, the Minister of Consumer Affairs. I wonder if the gentleman could tell us about the controversial car wrecks. Have the government managed to sell them yet? The car wrecks down here at the Octagon are creating aneyesore and I believe thereiis a pile out in Central Newfoundland and another bunch of car wrecks out in 1411. MURPHY: Western Newfoundland. Eight-seven locations. MR.

NEARY: Eighty-seven locations. Well has the government succeeded in selling these car wrecks yet? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to say that in the past few weeks there has been negotiations going on with I think three.companies for the disposition of these car wrecks. Our only

part in this now, Mr. Speaker, and I think I have informed the House on many occasions, is the amount of money that is available and that is the hold-back from the previous company who had the contract of something like $6.88 and that is available to the company that will make the contract with the bank representing the former contractor. So I think everybody is aware of that. We publicized it enough. There are no controversial car wrecks anymore. They are there unfortunately. We feel worse about that than anybody else. I can understand the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) being quite concerned.

His brother-in-law is right in the middle of the thing trying to get the contract but outside of that -7 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: ■•■ •

June 22, 1978 MR. MURPHY: Tape No. 4747 NM - 3 - it is being negotiated in an honest manner, not with my department but with the people representing the contractor. Anything else I cannot do, Sir. I just say there are approximately 20,000 car wrecks that we would love to get out of the Province, as I imagine would everybody in that part of the country insofar as we can do it. But I think all the facts are known. It has been discussed time and time and time again.

So I mean as far as I am concerned, and my final statement on the thing is that negotiations are going on and we hope pretty soon, Sir, that negotiations will be completed to at least get clear of the car wrecks that are existant now and perhaps come up with a new programme to rid the Province of any more in the future. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the gentleman that the hon. minister referred to, Sir, I am afraid is no longer negotiating.

He is not in the middle of any negotiations with the hon. gentleman and the hon. gentleman should apologize to this gentleman becaUse, Mr. Speaker, one of the hazards of being in politics in the Province is that nobody belonged to you is allowed to make a bid or tender on anything, well then it is time to give it up. But anyway,

June 22, 1978, Tape 4748, Page 1 -- apt MR. NEARY: the hon. gentleman, Sir, managed to hang up the phone and told this gentleman, "I have taken enough so and so - unparliamentary language - off your in-laws in the House and therefore I am not going to talk to you any more." MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. W.N.ROWE: Yes, that is right. MR. NEARY: And hung up the phone. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W.N.ROWE: Ignorant. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. gentlemen may well have .a matter whichithey wish to debate sometime, but they will, have to pick an appropriate motion and not the Question Period to so do. MR.

NEARY: Oh, I would love to debate this with the hon.gentleman, Sir. In the meantime,I understood from the answer the hon. gentleman gave that there are no firm - MR. MURPHY: Final answer, incidentally. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. MURPHY: I gave you my final answer. MR. W.N.ROWE: Oh, he is not going to answer. MR. NEARY: The final answer? Well, will the hon. gentleman give me a final answer on this? Mr.

Speaket, I read the statement the hon. gentleman tabled in this House there a couple of weeks ago that he said satisfied the Auditor General for the Auditor General's criticism of Affiliated Marine Metals in ripping off the public treasury through falsifying reports and fraudulent claims. Has the minister requested the Minister of Justice to investigate these false reports that were made, these fraudulent claims that were made on the public treasury? Has the minister asked for a police investigation into this matter? Mr. Speaker, does the hon. minister intend answering that question? AN HON. MEMBER: No, Mr.

Speaker.

June 22, 1978, Tape4748, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Another cover-up! MR. SIMMONS: Go back to Florida, 'Ank'. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman another supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. NEARY: The dollar that was put on every licence in this Province, Sir - well, the hon. gentleman thinks it is funny. MR. MURPHY: It is crazy not funny. It is crazy. MR. NEARY: I would say somewhere between let me see, my estimate is about maybe a couple of hundred thousand dollars that was ripped off and the hots. gentleman says he is holding back $103,000.

Where is the difference going to come from if there are shortages? MR. MURPHY: From my pocket. I will take you down to the Starboard Quarter and buy you a steakette. MR. NEARY: Oh, very, very funny! MR. MURPHY: Yeah! MR. NEARY: But what about the public treasury? MR. MURPHY: The same way with the building supplies on Bell Island (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Oh yes, what about - well - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - my understanding is that justice has been done in that case. The culpidts have been brought - MR. MURPHY: They have not paid back the money. MR. NEARY:.

No, but the culprits have been brought to justice. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please: MR. NEARY: What about the culprits in the case of Affiliated Marine Metals? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: I must require the hon. gentleman

June 22, 1978, Tape 4748, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and all hon. members, when the Chair calls order to desist even if one is in mid-sentence. Now I will ask the hon. gentleman to pose, unless he has already done so, the question for which he was recognized. MR. NEARY: No'. Well, my auestion, Sir, is what about this dollar that was put on the licences in this Province to collect car wrecks? We no longer have a car collection programme going ahead in this Province, what happens to the dollar? Will it be taken off the licences now? Will it be refunded to the people who paid it?

What about this dollar that was put on for the specific purpose of collecting the car wrecks around this Province? Oh, mute. All of a sudden, mute. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. SIMMONS: Name him. AN HON.. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Ministerial Statement. MR. SIMMONS: 'Ank Murphy'. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

The minister will recall that some three to four weeks ago he met with the delegation from the Port Blandford to Jamestown - Winter Brook Rural Development Association concerning getting funds in this fiscal year for reconstruction,upgrading and paving of roads in the area. Subsequent to that meeting I presented a petition of 2,000 signatures as to the same matter.

My question to the minister is, can the minister indicate whether there have been funds allocated by the provincial government to date to start reconstruction and paving of the roads in the area or if not, will there be funds made available in this fiscal year for the reconstruction, upgrading and paving of the roads from Port Blandford to Jamestown - Winter Brook? MR. WHITE: Of course there will be funds, the minister always (inaudible).

June 22, 1978, Tape 4748, Page 4 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: and Communications. MR. DOODY: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker,my recollection of that particular meeting which was an excellent meeting with a good group of people who were verY concerned and rightly so, was to the effect that we were not in a position to make a commitment on paving at this time. I do remember concern about a bridge which had to be done which we undertOok to do and which is being done before we can get into a major effort down there.

We also undertook at that time, I think, to make sure that gravel and liquid calcium would be applied. There were some areas which had been overlooked last year for some reason or other which we undertook to make sure would be done this year. These things have been committed and will be.done. As for paving of that particular area, I am afraid that that is in jeopardy at this particular point. We do not have

June 22, 1978 Tape 4749 EC - 1 :IR. DOODY: enough funds to do all the requests that we have for paving. We will certainly make every effort that we can to do it as quickly as we can. It is in that area with another 2,500 miles which have to be paved in the Province and that is quite apart from the fact that there are many, many areas of Newfoundland, Labrador particularly, and on the Island which have no road connections at all. When one takes all thb demands into consideration and tries to allocate the funds that are available lit becomes extremely difficult.

However, under the circumstances we will do everything that we possibly can and we sincerely hope that the people in that area will be somewhat better off this year than they were in previous years and hopefully in the very near future we will be in a position to accommodate all their desires. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, in that meeting the minister will recall that he made some reference to the amendment to the DREE agreement and I am wondering now whether the minister is in a position to inform the House as to whether or not this area will be included in this DREE agreement and this amendment to the DREE agreement that the Province will enter into with the federal government shortly? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communica tions. MR. DOODY: It becomes very difficult to discuss the various DREE agreements that we have the privilege of entering into.

It sounds as though we are passing over all the road problems and all the communications and transportation problems of the Province of Newfoundland into the hands of the government at Ottawa and as much as

• June 22, 1978 Tape 4749 EC - 2 MR. DOODY: we would like to be able to do 40 that we know that that is not so. The road communications, the transportation problems of the Province are ours and any assistance or help that we can get from the Government of Canada through DREE or through any other area, any other department, such as the Department of Transport who have entered into the three year, 50-50 agreement on the Trans-Canada,is certainly very welcome.

To say that this particular road or that particular road has been referred to DREE is really an oversimplification, because it simply shifts the responsibility in a sort of a temporary or ad hoc basis from one government to another. The responsibility for that particular road and that particular area is the responsibility of the Province.

Now there is no question about it at all that we will be discussing that with DREE and we will try to do everything that we can to get it included in a DREE arrangement or a DREE agreement or a sub-amendment or sub-agreement, but I would be less than honest if I did not say that there is a limit to the amount of branch roads or off/side roads that the Government of Canada will get involved in, DREE particularly.

They have made it abundantly clear to us, Sir, that they have no desire or intention of becoming what they refer to as the Municipal Affairs Department of the Government of Canada and they have tried to keep their road agreements in that area.

I have no hesitation in saying that the Province of Newfoundland has been extremely fortunate in getting the road agreements that they have with the Department of Regional Economic Expansion which from the start has been most sympathetic and has gone, I think, above and beyond the call in providing us with funds to help reconstruct and pave roads in the Province which we certainly would not be able to do without the help of the Government of Canada.

. June 22, 1978 Tape 4749 EC - 3 MR. DOODY: We certainly will be pressing IP the Port Blandford area as we will with many other areas of the Province, but I would be less than honest if I did not suggest that it is quite impossible to suggest to the House that DREE will come through or can come through on all these programmes and projects that we ask them to assist us with. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: One supplementary, the hon. the member for Conception Bay South; followed by the hon. the member for Eagle River and the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

NOLAN: I would like to ask the minister two things reallyf One, is he prepared to table in the House a list of his capital works projects? What work is he going to do on what roads this year? And also to give us some information regarding if not oil, certainly sodium chloride - is that what you call it? AN HON. MEMBER: Calcium chloride. MR. NOLAN: Calcium chloride? AN HON. MEMBER: Sodium chloride. MR. NOLAN: Well, we will give the minister the sodium chloride but the people are interested in calcium chloride, at least some are at the moment.

I am thinking specifically of the road in Seal Cove and the Dunfield road and Foxtrap. I mean, would the minister be good enough to spread the wealth around a little bit so that some people who live in the Conception Bay area might benefit from his political largess?

June 22, 1978 Tape 4750 Pk - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications.' MR. DOODY: I am not in the business of dispensing political largess. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DOODY: I am in the business of trying to proVide within the limited funds that are available those road conditions and road improvements which are within the responsibility of the Province of Newfoundland. We are doing that as much as we can and as well as we can.

On the calicum chloride effort,that part of -I assume that the hon. member is referring to Seal Cove in the Conception South area, not Seal Cove in the White Bay area which I have already taken very great pains to look after and protect in dispensing my political largess, and everyone knows what a nest of Tories there are in Seal Cove in that area. We have also entered into discussions, serious discussions to look after the residents of Seal Cove in the district of - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. DOODY: Look please, Mr. Speaker, I am being harassed again. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR.

DOODY: You know how sensitive I am. We are looking at and actively pursuing improvements in the road, the access road to Seal Cove down there in Hermitage in the district of my friend for Fortune Bay (Mr. J. Winsor), it is near Hermitage in the district of Fortune Bay, and we are making considerable progress in helping these people in contributing toward and dispensing our political largess. Another great nest of Tory support, Sir, is Seal Cove down in Fortune Bay.

I remember very well the results in the by-election they came through after an address by my friend, the Minister of Justice who swung that vote down from, I think, it was seventeen down to seven. SOME'HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! •

June 22, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: Tape 4750 PK - 2 Order, please! (Inaudible) But, Sir, we are going to dispense our largess to all of the Seal Coves in this Province as Quickly as we can. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. HICKMAN: Order 7 MR. SPEAKER: Order 7,the adjourned debate on Bill No. 50. The debate was adjourned by the hon. member for Mount Scio. DR. WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 50 is a very important piece- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! DR. WINSOR: - it is the most important piece of legislation probably affecting the region, the St.

John's Urban Region for many years. It is narticularly important to me. My district of Mount Scio takes in the densely populated part of St. John's North of Elizabeth Avenue. I then go out to the community of Portugal Cove taking in the unincorporated area of Penetanguishene,over to St. Phillip's, and then back up the Thorburn Road, As you can see this bill certainly effects all parts of my district, the City of St. John's which obviously is being reported in the press as very strong in opposition to this bill. And I have two incorporated communities,recently incorporated ones, Portugal Cove and St.

Phillip's, and again another active Concerned Citizens Group led by Mr. Fahey in Airport Heights. So as you can see it certainly affects my district very greatly. First of all, before I get into my remarks - -- MR: PECKFORD: Would the hon. gentleman just speak up a little bit because I cannot hear you very well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR: SPEAKER: DR: R: WINSOR: MR. SPEAKER: seat. Oh, oh! It is difficult to hear the hon. member. Sir, I will try to talk a little louder. Perhaps by leave the hon. member might speak from another

June 22, 1978 Tape 4750 PK - 3 • DR. R. WINSOR: I am used to being very close to the people I speak to through most of my working day, and it is rather difficult for me to shout. SOME'HON, MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! DR. R: WINSOR: First of all,I would like to congratulate those two new councils, the Council of St. Phillip's and its Mayor, Mr. William Tucker. They have an excellent group of people, very concerned and very deeply interested in the future of their town. Also in Portugal Cove,Mrs. Carol Mitchell, and she also has an excellent group of people.

And I think we are very fortunate to have such an outstanding group of people volunteer for a community service in these two areas. Now before I get into my remarks on Bill 50, I would just like to go into a little background, Metro Board has been, of course, very important in my district. In fact,all areas up until recently,when St. Phillip's and Portugal Cove became incorporated,were, under the control of Metro Board, with one exception, the community of Portugal Cove.

There have been, and I have had many complaints from constituents about the autocracy of Metro Board and difficulties in dealing with them, but overall the Metro Board I have been quite happy with, and I think the majority of people have. There have been problems but two of the reasons for these problems are that Metro Board has been entirely an appointed body. I think that in itself particularly ,when they started to levy taxes on business establishments, certainly upset a lot of people, and certainly in this day and age taxation without representation is just not tolerable. The other •

June 22,1978 Tape No. 4751 AH-1 DR.R.WINSOR: reason I think that Metro was a bit unpopular was because of the fact that they had the unfortunate job of enforcing regulations laid down by the 'Department of Forestry and Agriculture, good regulations, certainly needed and I am particularly referring to the agricultural land freeze and protective forest, productive forest and this sort of thing. It certainly affected,and as my colleagues on either side of me, the member for Conception Bay South (Mr.Nolan) and St. John's East Extern (Mr.Hickey),1 think we have all faced these problems over the last few years.

Even though the overall benefit for that region was the main objective and was good and was needed,it did affect the individual who lived in those communities for many years, had land, sometimes in the family for maybe over 100 years and when the time came for the son to build a home obviously it :-.:reated resentment when they were turned down.

In many cases it was not just the fact of not having the three and one half or five acres, it may have been a part of the land freeze that - the land itself was not amenable to farMing but it was used as a sort of a buffer arEa,as protection, so it was very difficult to ,explain to people. I.know Metro Board had the same problem. I intervened in some cases but it was difficult to convince people that, here it is, look you have five or ten acres but you cannot build there, you cannot sell it, so you have to go and find a lot in Newtown or some place in St.

John's,if you can find one and get $10,000 or $12,000, it is just out of their reach. So one of the things I think government will have to do, I know it will be expensive, but for many reasons and I think one of the main ones, the humanitarian oneiis the fact that we are going to have to establish some sort of land bank or at least a subsidization so that if people cannot build. at least they can sell their land and get a substantial return from it which then can then reinvest in some sort of building lot of their own. in some other area. Now it is significant that St.

Phillip's for many years has been under the control of Metro BOard and Portugal Cove had not.

• • June 22,1978 Tape No. 4751 Ali-2 DR.R.WINSOR: I think anyone who disputes the value of Metro Board in that area can compare the problems of both communities today. There was resentment again for the reasons I.have previously stated but the overall result is that a community now like St. Phillip's undertaking local government has many, less problems than a community like Portugal Cove . where they were allowed to build uncontrolled for many years.

The expense and other technical problems of supply and services to a community like Portugal Cove are going.to be immense because of these lack of controls over the past few years. But it is rather significant when one says that here is Metro Board,so hated; But it, cannot be, Mr. Speaker, because last Sunday, certainly all communities were quite concerned about the effect of Bill 50 on the status of their council and in most cases I think it was just not having the bill explained properly to them. I know the minister and I and Mr.

Withers, the Deputy Minister spent last Sunday afternoon with St: Phillip's and last Sunday night with the town of Portugal Cove, with their town councils. Yesterday I noticed the St. Phillip's town council issued this release, and I would like to put it into the record of this House, June 21,1978, "The St. Phillip's town council met with the ::on. Jerome Dinn, Mr. Peter Withers and Dr. R. Winsor on Sunday June 13th regarding Bill 50. After much discussion before and after the meeting with the minister it was decided

June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4752 NM - 1 DR. R. WINSOR: that the St. Phillips Town Council would go on record as supporting Bill 50 - SOTE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. R. WINSOR: - to implement a regional government in the Northeast Avalon region. But council wishes to note they had some reservations regarding the proposed power of the regional council. The St. Phillips Town Council is now preparing a submission requesting amendments to Bill 50 and when ready this submission will be presented to the minister and our two M.B.A.'s, Dr. Ray Winsor, and Mr. John Nolan." MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! DR. R. WINSOR: Now, Mr.

Speaker, certainly when we received this submission from the St. Phillips Town Council it will be given every consideration and knowing the capabilities of their town council I am sure that they will be good recommendations. And whether it is too late in this session to implement these amendments,if necessary certainly they can be given every consideration in the Fall or at the latest next Spring.

But again,if Metro Board, were so unpopular, here is a community that is now in favour of regional government.And again,a community like Portugal Cove,which had never had the control of Metro Board,has„I think publicly, at least up to a week ago, after its meeting with the Northeast Avalon communities group came out against it. So I think it is rather significant that the one that knew and had experience with Metro Board the most is now in favour of regional government.

Now back in November of '75, just after the general election, I think one of my first duties as a member was to attend a meeting at the Roncalli School with the Henley Commission. I think that was November 5th., 1975. There was quite a bit of discussion in the district about the hearings and certainly a lot of •

June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4752 NM - 2 DR. R. WINSOR: debate went on at that time.: The Henley Commission submitted its report to government in October of '76 and since thenrthere has been continuous debate as to the recommendations. I think there.were fifty-one recommendations of the Henley COmmission, ranging from an enlarged city concept to regional government and many, many others, as most members of this House are aware. But the two main points of the Henley Report,of course, one was the expanded city concept and the second was regional government.

Now the expanded city concept was not accepted to this point by government mainly because of the strong opposition by the_ surrounding communities, and plebescites in some areas.but certainly, we were quite aware of public opinion and certainly there had been enough coverage in the press from Kilbride, Mount Pearl, Airport Heights, and Wedgewood Park, etc. Now the expanded city concept I agree with in .the final analysis. I think this will come as a natural course in time. But the city has to project an image, the city council, to make these areas realize that being part of St. John's may not be all that bad.

Really it is up to city council to sell the concept. We cannot legislate these areas withrthe majority of public opinion against it at this time. But maybe in ten, fifteen years, maybe less than that with a good PR job by the city, that those people will not object to having the expanded. - MR. DINN: Fifty-three recommendations. DR. R. WINSOR: • The minister just told me there were fifty-three recommendations, not fifty-one. Thank you. So I think in the long term, for the future of St. John's, the expanded city will come. What form it will take or what areas, I think that too will sort of evolve as time goes on.

And I do not think it is something that can be

• • L .June 22. 1978 Tape No. 4752 NM - 3 DR. R. WINSOR: legislated. I think it will have to come from the desires of the people in the area. After the Henley Commission was made public,and there was a lot of debate, we attended and certainly I think all the St. John's area members- attended meetings with the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities. I think we had four full days discussing the recommendations of the Henley Commission. Now after very thorough debate, very thorough debate, finally the federation made recommendations to the minister and one of the main ones of course was regional government. ■.■ •

June 22, 1978 Tape 4753 OW — 1 • DR. WINSOR: And pretty well all the communities in the Northeast Avalon were at these meetings. In fact, the unincorporated ones were invited I think to the third and fourth at my request because of the Airport Heights situation and there were others. The Hogan's Pond Local Improvement District was also there. So pretty well everyone had

part in the decision making process up to that time. I am not saying that everyone at those meetings agreed• with the concept. I think there was general agreement on regional co-operation and regional government in most cases. There were one or two people who were against any form of regional co-operation and I do not think there was any appeasing them. From that we came up with Bill 101, and you all know what happened there.

There was strong objection by city council, and I think there were considered objections and fairly reasonable and certainly some members of our caucus felt strongly that the bill should-be withdrawn, as it was at the last minute with the co-Operation • of the minister, and then we got to work. We had, I would imagine fourteen, fifteen meetings over a period of time, every two or three weeks, to go over all the protests of the different councils pretaining to Bill 101 and we now have I think an excellent compromise in Bill 50.

It is not the complete answer - we will never come up with a piece of legislation that will suit everyone - but at this time, taking all aspects of the problems of the region, I think this is the best possible compromise that we can get at this time. It will not be adequate forever: there will be amendments. The St. John's City Act I think had seven amendments last year, fifteen this year. There is a constant prodess of change for any of these municipal acts.

As conditions can change, so does the act and this is a fact of life so nobody need to fear that this act is going to be entirely unchanged over the years to come. In fact, maybe by the Fall there will he amendments. Many people feel, certainly those who advocate the Report of the Henley Commission •

June 22, 1978 Tape 4753 DW - 2 DR. WINSOR: with the expanded city that this act does not go far enough. Of course, many other.: councils feel that it just goes too far.I think when people stop to consider the intent of this bill and the valuable points that are in_it,that onee they consider them they will realize that this is for their benefit and the benefit of the people of the St. John's urban region and of St. John's, because what benefits one part of this area will benefit the others - we just cannot be independent one of the other.

Now the purpose of the bill of course is the framework of regional government in the Northeast Avalon region and this is to supply municipal services which are considered to be of a regional nature,such as water and sewerage, transportation and fire fighting this sort of thing. And of course the second one would be to control development in the unincorporated areas. This again is a function that. Metro Boardahas carried out. Now it really will make no change .to these areas in the sort of status of government if they change now from a non-elected group to a body that is now two-thirds elected.

The powers that the new regional council will have are no different then what Metro Board had in the unincorporated areas. There are many advantages to regional government and I think I would like to list five or six of them because one hears so many negative aspects of regional government and how we are taking away the powers of the local councils and all that. I think many of the things I see reported in the papers are not accurate;however,if they are accurate they do not sort of take in the full context of what the particular

section of the bill is doing and therefore there is a tremendous educational process going to be needed for the public to really understand what is in this bill. One of the main purposes of this bill is to provide services to smaller communities that they would not be able to provide for themselves or get in any other way. I am thinking of such things as accounting services for small

June 22, 1978 DR. R. WINSOR: Tape 4754 EC - 1 incorporated areas engineering services and planning services, and anyone wild has had any contact with municipal government realizes how important these three functions are. And certainly it would be almost impossiblefor an area like St. Phillips, Portugal Cove, Torbay to hire that sort of expertise and certainly to get people to come in on a consultation basis is extremely expensive. Then the other main advantage of regional government, of course, and one I have not heard put forth before, is to promote the economic development of the area.

There is very little that a small community like Portugal Cove or St. Phillips can do in the sense of stimulating industry in the area, but with the regional council certainly this could be one of the main benefits, that of an. organized approach to economic development, and can benefit all the smaller areas of the region. Regional waste disposal - I have heard the minister many times, and I think in his talk the other day, refer to Robin Hood Bay and the absolute mess that that is in. It is a disgrace to any civilized society.

And I remember last summer, I guess, when we had a strike and I was going up there with some garbage from my own house, and the stench was just completely out of hand. And how in this modern society that that sort of condition is allowed to exist - I gather that the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Municipal Affairs have looked into the incineration process and hopefully will start one in that waste disposal area shortly and will use it as an example to all the councils in the area that use this waste disposal site to see how clean this sort of thing can be with proper organization and planning.

And as far as the health hazard is concerned it would be absolutely nil where now we have a potential explosion on our hands. And rats evidently

June 22, 1978 Tape 4754 EC - 2 DR. R. WINSOR: abound up there, particularly the two days a week that they cover over the garbage site, and I guess roam wide looking for food, and one of these days they are going to create a real problem fo'r some child. But that is just a couple of them. Then you get into regional parks and recreational facilities, but there is no need to elaborate on that; I think that is obvious. Another, I think, important one which again has not been given the attention it needs is the fact of regional tax collection.

You have a small community, again I will use the two in my district, and setting up the tax collection facilities,if had a proper accounting system with regional government these communities could combine their bookkeeping problems and services with the regional council and the bills could go out from one central agency. It would certainly save a lot of duplication of effort and in the final analysis make the services cheaper to the communities involved.

Then the other obvious one, of course, is the water and sewerage systems to smaller communities aided and abetted with the facilities of the regional council and,again, regional transportation and firefighting. These, I think, to anybody who just stops and thinks about it certainly can be done a heck of a lot more efficiently on a regional basis than for every community to have their own firefighting station or their own transportation system. And in most cases it would mean they would never get them if left to their own resources, but certainly on a regional basis these things will be in time available.

And as we have to consider that by 1991 we are going to have 65,000 more people - and that is not that far away - and when you consider 65,000 more people in that region it is going to make some.

Tape 4754 EC 7 3 June 22, 1978 DR. R. WINSOR: _of these areas fairly densely populated and certainly these services will have to be provided even if at this moment they may not be entirely necessary, but ten years down the road they will be. Now I will get into some points of the bill I would like to bring up and one we hear a lot of-is taxation.

June 22, 1978 Tape 4755 PK - 1 Dr. R. Winsor: I noticed in the paper this-morning a comment by the Deputy Mayor of St. John's about where there had been no financial sort of an assessment made of the cost-of regional 'government to the area in projection. But -I think the Deputy Mayor-must realize that many of these cost projections are fairly inaccurate things, and I think he is probably very familiar with one now and it concerns the parking garage, that things can certainly multiply in cost fairly rapidly. And no matter how carefully a cost analysis is done.

I have not been privileged to any information other than anyone else in St. John's City Council or on this side of the House or that side of the House, if they want to go look for it, but we have a pretty good idea what the manpower will have to be with the regional council when you consider that Metro Board now has about thirty-six employees, and you are talking of regional water services with a board which they have now taken over, maybe another twelve or thirteen employees, we are going to need maybe another couple of more planners, and I would estimate a force of about seventy-five people.

And when one considers that size of a force to govern a population of over 200,000 people in the St. John's Urban Region, or to supply services of many different types compare that with the staff at City Hall, it is a very spartan force. So I do not think anyone who is concerned that this is going to be a very expensive operation need really have no great fear. I think the savings that will accrue from just more efficient supply of services will certainly more than make up cost of salaries and for expertise which in many cases if we did not have regional government would have to be there anyhow.

We would certainly have to have a water and sewer board. So we are not creating more, we are just putting that now under the regional government. So in effect, basically I think the other thing that I heard city council, and certainly it has been reported in the press - double taxation. Now I would like to quote again from a statement by Mr.

June 22, 1978 Tape 4755 IB-2 DR. R. WINSOR: John R. O'Dea. "'Nothing in bill 50", declares Mr. O'Dea, "gives authority to the regional council to impose property or business taxes in the city of St. John's or in any incorporated area.' Mr. O'Dea noted that the legislation would give the regional council the power to . establish by regulation any parts of the unorganized areas in the region as designated service areas-which they have the right to do now,by the way - and to impose upon the residents taxes and other charges in accordance with the Local Government Act, 1972.

"Furthermore'he pointed out,"Metro Board already has those powers and imposes business taxes in all parts of the Metropolitan area under its control and property taxes in designated service areas such as Anne Jeanette, East Meadows, and Donovans Industrial Park:" Now in unincorporated areas, and I want to refer particularly to Airport Heights, first of all there will be no taxation of private residences in an area like Airport Heights until they are provided with water and sewer. MR. NEARY: How do you know that? DR. R.

WINSOR: This has been certainly indicated to me in many discussions with the minister and with the department. I am absolutely sure of that. MR. DINN: That is the practice of Metro Board and that is what is carried out in applications for designated services. DR: R: WINSOR: Now if the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) would just sit back and keep his ears open rather than the other part of his anatomy he might learn something. MR. MURPHY: Right. It also would be a change. DR. R.

WINSOR: I repeat again,there will be no taxation on private residences in an area like Airport Heights until they receive water and sewer services. And furthermore, Mr. Speaker, they will not be forced to have water and sewer until they have a plebiscite. And when an area through .a plebiscite indicates by 75 ner cent to 80 per cent approval of water and sewerage,then that area will get it. But if

June 22, 1978 Tape 4755 1B-3 DR. R. WINSOR: they do not it will not be forced upon them. And until they decide to accept it and nay the user' fee they will not be taxed on the private residence basis.' think that should allay a fear which I had many people call me about from that. area. They will only a

• June 22,1973 Tape No. 4756 AH-1 DR.R.WINSOR: pay basically fOrWhat they receive. Also, as I said before,Metro has the power to declare an area a designated service area and to charge taxes if they supply the services.

So really there is nothing for that.part of my district to be afraid of If anyone feels that certain services are not needed,and certainly water and sewerage is a basic right in most parts of the North American context,I can bring the hon. gentleman to an area about maybe four or five hundred yards from here, the place where you are now sitting, and every morning there is a bucket brigade from their house with raw sewerage thrown into a river which goes into a bog and that bog then flows into Keats Pond and goes on down through the city.

Now I just do not think that sort of thing need exist anymore in our society,and I hope to God when we get regional government this area I am thinking about — I am not going to mention the name of the street because it may embarrass some of the residents, but it does exist. If any hon. gentleman wants to see it I will take him,but it is not a very pleasant sight that close to what we consider one of the most modern parts of St. John's Now in

section 9,the makeup of the regional council,the chairman, the appointed chairman,I am glad to see that it is to be Mr. John R. O'Dea,a man whom I have the greatest respect for, who has been very, very good to me as the member for the district. I found him very decent to deal with. He is concerned about the problems of the people. He is available and I think he is probably the most competent person we could get to not only have run Metro Board but now to run the regional council when this act is proclaiMed. We have four members appointed.In large by government,and then four elected at large in St.

John's,and there are six from the outlying areas and these six,of course,will be chosen from areas yet to be decided but I understand it is to be done on the population density so that everybody pretty well in these areas will have equal sort of representation. Henley recommended six in St. John's and of course that was at the time when he also was stressing the expanded city concept. Again that is up,I think,fcr the •

June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4756 JM - 2 DR. R. WINDSOR: city to handle in its own way over the next few years to try to convince these people that this would be an asset to them. The reason for appOintments,and many people have complained about this thatthis is again autocratic by government we are controlling the regional Councillwe have ulterior motives to do so. This is not so, Mr. Speaker.

In the formative years we have had a hugh influx of funds in that area, over $50 million on things such as the Northeast trunk sewer, the Waterford Valley trunk sewer, the Rennies Mill trunk sewer and then the Bay Bulls water and sewer system. There is earmarked about another $50 million to be spent in this area over the next few years. A lot of this is DREE money but quite a Substantial percentage from the Provincial Government. So obviously government has to have some input if we are spending these large amounts of public funds.

The other advantage of these four appointed members,and again I refer to the Henley Commission, is the fact that Mr. Henley felt that these four people could actually be neutrals,in a sense they could referee problems between competing communities in the region. It stands to reason that this is so. If a person is appointed he has an overview of the whole St. John's urban region or Northeast Avalon region where somebody who is elected from one part, one of those six councillors,say,from outside may be a member of another council and have a tremendouSly strong desire to see something done in his particular area.

Obviously everyone is built that way and very few of us have the ability to always have the overview that we have to put our interest of our own constituents first and certainly these four appointed people will have a tremendous,I think,control to referee that sort of dispute on the regional council.

• June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4757 NM - 1 DR. R. WINSOR: Another point: I would certainly like to go on record,and I certainly feel I have the assurance of the minister and of our government,that there will not be a political hack appointment on these four people. They will be people with expertise in municipal politics and will be put there on the basis of their knowledge, not on the basis of their politics,and certainly I think most of us on this side of the House will certainly see that that is the way it will be.

We have now Metro Board with six appointed and this was done of course, and I do not want to bring politics into this speech but it was done by the former administration, fifteen years ago. It served its purpose well and possibly at that time where municipal politics was in embryo in Newfoundland this was the only option they had. Now we have grown, I think municipal politics have matured to the point we are ready for the elective regional government concept.

One other point I would like to mention, the fact that I have heard complaints that the minister has the power to defer elections for up to six months -oh no, that the elections would have to be within six months and then the minister would have the power to defer elections up to twelve months. Well certainly the six months time period is reasonable because there will have to be enumeration of the residents of the area and the physical set up to hold the election, time for the potential councillors to do their politicking and to get nominated and so on.

And the fact that the minister has the power to defer elections for twelve months I think to my knowledge, has only been used twice before, once in the '65 municipal elections when it conflicted on the same day as the federal election and obviously there certainly was no ulterior motive of the minister at the time to defer an election but it was an absolutely necessity. And then last year in Mount Pearl where we had to take a plebescite in New Town to determtre the wishes'of the New Town people, whether they wanted to amalgamate

Tape No. 4757 NM - 2 June 22, 1978 DR. R. WINSOR: with Mount Pearl. So those two cases are examples of what that power is thereto do. Certainly I just cannot see any minister - and be it that some day we may not have as decent a one as we have now, and we have a superb one now - what ulterior motives could the minister defer it? There would have to be specific reasons for that

section to be in there and I think it is in there for very good reasons. Now the other clauses I'would like to mention briefly are clauses 32 and 33, the acquisition of municipal assets. Now one thing we have to remember is that the property of any council is not owned by the council, it is owned by the citizens of the community. And the Henley Commission recommended the basic policy of non-compensation in respect to the assets of 'a municipality if it was required for regional services. And the reason for that, Mr.

Speaker, is the fact that it has already been paid for by the taxpayers of the area,or partially paid for. The regional council will accept the liabilities of that particular item, whatever it is, but certainly to make all the people of the region to acquire a previously owned asset by a municipality and then retax the people of the region, which would then make the people of that municipality contribute all over again to acquiring that asset. There is a quote from Henley and I think this puts it in its proper context. "Mr.

Henley also said, 'The new authorities are trustees for the people of the area, just as the old authorities were. Both the assets and the liabilities have always been public and they remain public.'" So therefore the citizen, and he is the one we are here to represent, and the ones that the councils represent, and I do not think the average citizen when he turns on his tar in the morning and he gets clear, clean water, is going to give a darn whether the city of St. John's owns it or the regional council or the Shiek of Aran

June 22, 1978 Tape 4758 DW - 1 WINSOR: That is what government has to do and I certainly do not think it is a great concern of the people. It is a concern of .the people-I did not mean it in that concept.I do not think the people are concerned as to who has the legal title to that particular asset as long it is available to their use. So, again,if compensation were paid, people would pay for the second time.And again I think that thoroughly refutes that arguementtthat we have heard so much about. And, Mr. Speaker, nothing in this bill-I represent both sides,' represent part of the city of St.

John's and part of the urban region - and there is nothing in that bill-we have gone through this and we have certainly had expertise provided,we have had legal advice and good legal advice in our caucus - thereis nothing in that bill to harm any residents inside or outside the city of St. John's. If there was I would not be standing here expounding the benefits of this thing and I am sure that many other members of our caucus would not. We believe in it, we believe in what the minister is'doing, and he is doing a marvelous job.

WS have got to do more educating of the public about this because they are not getting the true . story from our so-called concerned groups and in the way some of things have been reported in the press. We have got to meet with the councils individually.I do not particularly go foe these mass meetings; very little usually is accomplished other than sometimes a good shouting match.But if we want to sort of have serious .discussion and these councils want to haVe its those in my district that we have approached or have approached me,the minister made himself available in Portugal Cove and St.

Phillips.I have not had any requests from the Concerned Citizen Group of Airport Heights to meet with me en an individual basis but that does not surprise me because I have been elected now for three and a half years and I have yet to have been approached by the Concerned Citizens of Airport Heights to hhve a meeting with them "on any of their problems

Tape 4758 DW - 2 June 22, 1978 DR. WINSOR: in that area,and I am sure that the member for St. John's East Extern (Mr. Hickey),who also has part of Airport Heights in his distric# has not. So, you know, we have to put these groups in the proper context:some are good and have the full and complete welfare of their people that they purport to represents some, ,I would suggestlhave motives that possibly do not lend themselves to the people.

We will meet if anyone - not approached me yet other than to get Airport Heights-I,and the minister / am available to meet with them because I the better interests of Hogan's Pond which has a copy of the bill and sure would make himself do think at this point many of the public are getting an incorrect

interpretation. But our responsiblity now, Mr. Speaker, is to see this bill gets thoroughly explained in this debate and gets through this House and is - the word I guess is probated and proclaimed and that regional government starts doing what the intend in this bill is for it to do and and that is really make this area a heck of a better place, a cleaner place, a place with more services and something that will provide these services at a cheaper cost than they could do it in any other way. So obviously, Mr. Speaker, I, do support this bill. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. T. LUSH: Hear, hear!

The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak &n this particular debate not primarily because it concerns the district which I represent; but standing more because I believe that this bill as advocated will set up a type of regional government that possibly will spread throughout this Province. MR. S. NEARY: That is right. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, this is not the kind of regional government that I envisage,for example,in the district that I represent and this why I want to speak to this

June 22, 1978 Tape 4759 IB-1 MR. LUSH: particular issue today. Mr. Speaker, obviously this idea was conceived because the provincial government recognized that there was a problem in Newfoundland, a problem in the St. John's area, a problem in the Northeast Avalon urban region, a problem with respect to providing essential public services. Now,Mr.

Speaker, that kind of concept, a concept for a regional government that will provide areas of this Province with essential services, water and sewer, transportation, whatever, there is no question about it that we need some form of regional government to be able to provide these services. And I am all for a regional government that will set itself up to.provide areas of Newfoundland, all the communities of Newfoundland, with these essential public services. But, Mr.

Speaker, to reiterate what some of my colleagues have said, it is not the concept of regional government that we object to, it is the concept of regional government as it is Purported in this particular bill 50. It is bill 50 that we are taking issue with the government. It is bill 50'. it is not the concept of regional government. Now, Mr. Speaker, from the outset I want to give three reasons why I am objecting to this particular bill, three reasons, and hope to elucidate upon the three reasons. The first one is the entire procedure that the government used in setting up this particular bill.

I object to the procedure, number one. Number two,I object to the kind of regional government that is advocated under this particular bill. And thirdly,I object to the powers that have been invested in this particular regional government as contained in this bill. These are the three points that I want to address myself to this afternoon. Now, Mr. Speaker, I mentioned the procedure.

Number one, a regional government is something that I think we must have in Newfoundland, some sort of a regional structure so that we get regional management, so that we can provide all of the communities in Newfoundland in as much as possible, all of the areas in this Province with proper and adequate public services. This must be done. But, Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that it needs to be the complex thing that is here,

June 22, 1978 Tape 4759 IB-2 MR. LUSH: that is invested with so much power it is unreal, incredible. I am not sure that it has got to be that type. But, Mr. Speaker, the procedure because it is so important that we have regional management, then I think there should have been much more time put into this and much more time in allowing the councils around this area, the municipalities and the people to have some input into what type of regional structure they would like to see, The people, that is what it is for, Mr. Speaker.

This is designed for the people and there are very few people in the Northeast Avalon urban region that know what this bill contains. Very few people know what it is all about and very few councillors, I maintain,know what this particular bill is about. There was very little input from the people that are affected by this bill, very little input. Mr. Speaker, this is why I say that this particular bill should not have come out as bill 50 as a document to be legislated and to become law. MR.

NEARY: All the people who have had input into this bill.by the way,were either fired out in the last election, municipal election and they were the only ones to have input. MR. LUSH: Exactly. Right. This bill, Mr. Speaker, should have come out in the form of a White Paper. This should have come out in the form of a White Paper and circulated among the people concerned and meatinsp held with them to see what they thought of this particular structure. Give them some guidance.

This should have been just guidelines as to what the government had in mind and then through a process of getting ideas from people, collecting information, getting submissions come up with the form of a regional government that the people want. But, Mr. Speaker, this is not the way it was done. It was done in a dictatorial, autocratic way, just thrown upon the people. And as I say the vast majority of the people in this area know not what is in this bill. They do not have a clue. They do not know what has been foisted upon them.

They do not know what kind of trap the government is going to get them in by this particular bill.

June 22, 1978 MR. NEARY: minister. MR. LUSH: Tape 4760 EC - 1 By an arrogant, incompetent The people had no input into this particular bill at all. The people who are most affected by this particular bill have no idea what is in it7 ,they had no input. It is just forced upon them, Mr. Speaker.

And this should have been in the form of a White Paper and would have formed the nucleus of generating discussion among municipalities and concerned groups of people to get together and discuss the - what shall I say? - just the nucleus of what the government had in mind and then get information from the people in the form of briefs or whatever, get all the ideas they could from the people in the area to find out what kind of regional system, what kind of regional structure, what kind of regional management that they would like to see, but not so, Mr. Speaker.

The government showed again its complete arrogance and its complete insensitivity - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: - to the needs of the people of this Province. And that is what concerns me, Mr. Speaker. That is what concerns me, the arrogance of this particular government, and the incompetence. That is what concerns me. And, Mr. Speaker, this could have been .a model. Approached in the right way, this bill could have been presented with unanimous consent by this House, because,as I said before, my colleagues and I are not against the concept of regional government. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR.

LUSH: Do not get carried away. with that. Let us not get mistaken about that issue. We are not against the concept of regional government, some kind of regional management, some sort of regional infrastructure to be able

June 22, 1978 Tape 4760 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: to provide the areas of this Province, the communities of this Province with the kinds of public services that they need and the kind of public services that they deserve. The procedure was all wrong, demonstrated the arrogance of the government and the insensitivity of the government. After all, this is set up for the people of this Province, not as a convenience of the government. This should be set up for the convenience of the people.

And if we are going to set up something for the convenience of the people, something to make their lives easier, something whereby they can approach government to get the things done that they want to do without another level of bureaucracy, to make the access to the government much more simple, much easier, then we should have gone to the people to find out what kind of structure they indeed thought was necessary. But not so, Mr. Speaker, not so by this arrogant government.

This is a bill that is now forced upon them and is going to be rammed through this session of the House, forced upon them and they not knowing what is in this particular bill. Well, thank God, we are going to try to tell them what this bill is all about, not that we are against regional government, but we are against many of the clauses and legislation contained within this bill. So, Mr. Speaker, I am against this form of regional government that this hon. crowd are advocating, one, because of the procedure they used in bringing in this form of regional government, a procedure which was divorced from the people.

The people did not have a clue what was going on. Mr. Speaker, the procedure was all wrong. It is too bad, as I said, too, too bad that this did not come out in the form of a White Paper to invite discussion among the people, to invite municipalities and groups of concerned people to get together and to discuss the issues in the White Paper. But no, it has come out now as a bill that

June 22, 1978 Tape 4760 EC - 3 MR. LUSH: is going to be forced through the House of Assembly and foisted upon the people. MR. NEAR!: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, secondly, I find the system of regional government advocated in this bill to be not the kind, I think, of structure that we should have in Newfoundland. Now I do not know the structure, this is why. If I were in charge of this particular bill or given the responsibility of coming up with a regional form of government, this is why I

June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4761 JM - 1 R. T. LUSH: would have gene the route of meeting with all the people that I could meet with, the people that were affected and to explain what regioral government is all about, to explain the kinds of regional government that exist throughout Canada and from that to come up with a structure for this Province, a workable,smooth structure without minimizing the complexities of it. This kind of a regional government should be as simple as possible because, Mr.

Speaker, the people of this Province are already over-governed and over-regulated and not at all in tune with the traditional life style of this Province. It is just amazing, Mr. Speaker. It is overwhelming when you talk to the people of this Province and find out how frustrated they are with the regulations that we have imposed upon them both from the Provincial level, the Federal level and now we have another level. Now we have another level and another level that is going to come in and further restrict the life style of the people of this ProVince. Another level, Mr.

Speaker, another level and I do not know of anything that the people in this Province - HR. NEARY: Here is the cutest man of all, the cutest minister of all. He has Bell Island and Holyrood left out. . MR. LUSH: That is right, that is right. MR. NEARY: Talk about cute. AN HON. MEMBER: Washed his hands of it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province as I said are over-governed and over-regulated.

Here we are bringing in another level of bureaucracy, another level of bureaucracy and nothing to make the acquisition of public monies easier, nothing to make it more simple but another level of bureaucracy to make it more complex, more complicated. That is what we have done; Mr. Speaker. I would like to see a form of regional management that were less sophis ti cat ed , less complicated than this particular system of regional government. Mr. Speaker, there is no precedent across Canada for this kind of system,to my knowledge that

Tape No. 4761 JM - 2 June 22, 1978 MR. LUSH: this government is now bringing in, no precedent. Now maybe there should not be any precedent because Newfoundland As unique in many ways. Maybe there should be no precedent,but if we had studied all the forms of government, if our people had a chance to study all) the forms of regional government and come up with this system,then we could say that is fine because the people decided that this is what we want. But that was not the case. MR. WHITE: They do not even do the studies. They do not even take the advice (inaudible) MI. LUSH: That was not the case, Mr. Speaker.

What we have is a mixture, this regional government is a mixture of a twc-tier, one-tier form of regional government - AN HON. MEMBER: A mish-mash. MR. LUSH: A mish-mash is right. We have municipalities and unincorporated areas, this is what we have, Mr. Speaker. Now maybe the idea was born out of the fact that the Whelan Commission stated that in this Province we had too many municipalities or in comparison to the population - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hon. member to refrain from having a conversation. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

LUSH: I said, Mr. Speaker, maybe this born, out of the fact that the Whelan Commission in commenting upon municipalities commented upon the excessive number of municipalities in this Province, more than any other ProVince in Canada on a per capita basis and that maybe this idea was born out of that. But, Mr. Speaker, what kind of an arrangement is it going to be? MR. WHITE: Dictatorship. MR. LUSH: Unincorporated and corporated areas, how are they going to work together? How is the regional government going to be able to tie that bag together, an area with fifteen municipalities and fifteen

Tape No. 4761 JM - 3 June 22, 1973 MR. LUSH: unincorporated areas? How are they going to tie this • bag together? It is going to be difficult, Mr. Speaker. As I have saidlit is unprecedented in Canada of this two-tier, one-tier mixture, unprecedent and another level of bureaucracy for municipalities. Mr, Speaker,

June 22, 1978 Tape 4762 IB-1 MR. LUSH: I only hope that this system of regional government will work better than our system of municipal government is working. I only wish it would. I would like to see our municipal government operate first well. MR. NEARY: They all - - MR: LUSH: Not through any fault of the elected people on the municipalities, Mr. Speaker, not through any fault of theirs, these elected councillors. They are working like slaves. They are working like trojans to try and make the system work. But they cannot do it Mr. Speaker, they cannot do it. If I could allude, Mr.

Speaker, just for one moment to a municipality in my own district, Musgravetown. But, Mr. Speaker, talking about municipalities, I would like to see that system working very effectively and it is not because of the elected councillors serving on these municipalities but because of the difficulty they have in getting co-operation and getting funds and understanding from the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. That is the problem, Mr. Speaker. I was going to allude just for a moment to a municipality,in my own district,of Musgravetown.

One council, one incorporated area surrounded by fifteen or twenty unincorporated areas, Mr. Speaker, and I should have thought that the minister would want to demonstrate to the people all around that area locally it is called the Goose Bay area, I should have thought that the minister would want for all of these unincorporated areas to look at the incorporated town of Musgravetown and say, "By golly, with the kinds of services they are getting, the kinds of treatment they are getting from government we should be incorporated as well." But, Mr.

Speaker, the reverse is true becauie if we brought in this concept of regional government where it is an area where it would be a marvellous concept, some form of regional management. But I am sure if the people•were given a choice to vote on this particular thing and on the basis of what they have seen with that municipal government in Musgravetown they would throw it out the window. They would not hear of it, Mr. Speaker.

June 22, 1978 Tape 4762 IB-2 MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Go out,boy,and look after the wrecked cars.•Look after the car wrecks. MR. SIMMONS: He blows again. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Go look after the car wrecks. MR. LUSH: Would not hear of it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUSH: The town of Musgravetown. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: (irder, please! MR. LUSH: The only service they get is garbage collection and all of the areas have that, unincorporated or incorporated. That is the only benefit, Mr. Speaker.

So the people are looking to say , " why should we be incorporated? Why should we have a regional government when it looks like we get nothing anyways, nothing for this." So it is unfortunate that that is the situation throughout this Province. Municipalities not working because they are not getting sufficient funds and not only funds but understanding, Mr. Speaker, understanding of the problem that these municipalities have to deal with, have to wrestle with from day to day. That is the difficulty. MR. SIMMONS: They are even asking, why do we have a minister. MR. LUSH: Exactly. Exactly. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this kind of mish mash of a two tiered, one tier regional government, it seems as through there was no throUgh went into it, no thought, ill conceived. A regional government, Mr.Speaker, nothing wrong with the concept, nothing wrong with it at all. We need it. But we do not need the kind of structure that is advocated in bill 50. We do not need that kind of structure. And, Mr. Speaker, the mixture of this two tier, one tier arrangement, I do not know how it is going to work. I do not know how this system is going to work. And I do not know the system to advocate,but I know this is the wrong one.

I know this is the wrong one.

June 22, 1978 Tape 4762 IB-3 MR. LUSH: The procedure was all wrong. If this government had gone out and met with the people and made this a White Paper they would have known what kind of system to have. They would not have come up with this two tiered, one tiered structure, Mr. Speaker, unprecedented in Canada, this two tiered, one tiered structure. Not like the county system in Nova Scotia, no resemblance, Mr. Speaker.

June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4763 NM - 1 MI. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, I think the idea - I am just wondering whether regional government is not some kind of system that the government can use as an excuse for putting off things, for doing things. Blame it on the regional government. Now this is another level you have to go to. This is another level. This is another level you have to go to and by the time it gets to the minister a couple of years would have expired and the minister will be out of power and the new government in. MR. SIMMONS: Do not let them too far - MR.

LUSH: I just wonder if it is not another step to promote procrastination, Mr. Speaker, delay in getting things done. It is certainly not a system that is going to expedite matters, not in this particular structure, not in this particular structure. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I have said before, when the people look around and see how ineffective municipalities are working because of the lack of understanding of the government, because of the lack of understanding, the lack of sensitivity to the needs of our people, then I am not sure that they are going to want to buy this.

It is unfortunate because this should have been the kind of bill that would have been a supreme example for regional government throughout this Province, so that all of us here could have stood up and lauded and praised the government and praised the minister for this marvellous document. But, Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate it is not. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: No. No. John O'Dea. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I feel that members to my left and right are joining in the debate in other than the proper manner.

The hon. member is speaking and I will ask hon. members to refrain from interruption.

June 22, 1978 'Tape No. 4763 NM - 2 MR, SIMONS: The hon. member for St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy) is harrassing him, Sir. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, what. we have, as I said, is another beaurcratic structure, another red tape level. That is what we have. And Heavens knows, Mr. Speaker, that our people have enough red tape to go through now, enough bureaucracy in this little, over governed and over regulated Province. On three fronts, now it is going to be four fronts, the federal level, provincial level, municipal level and now with this regional government level, the kind of, as advocated in this bill.

Four levels, Mr. Speaker, four levels of bureaucracy and each one of them coming up with rules and regulations that are completely restricting and stymying the initiative of our people. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear: MR. LUSH: It has got them stymied, Mr. Speaker. They do not know which way to turn. They do not know which way to turn. And I only wish I could go into the way that the people of the Terra Nova district are restricted in their living, following the traditional lifestyle of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Another level now, Mi. Speaker, another level of bureaucracy.

Well instead this bill should have come up with a well thought out, a well planned system of regional government that would meet the needs of this people, a smooth and fluid structure, Mr. Speaker,.so we could get up here in this House, as I said, and laud it and praise it, but instead of that, Mr. Speaker, we have to condemn this bill. We have to condemn this bill outrightly. AN HON. MEMBER: If he is it is a special education class. MR. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, those are my two points for objecting to this bill, the procedure used, the procedure

Tape No. 4763 NM - 3 June 22, 1978 R. LUSH: used and then the kind of regional government advocated, this mixture of two tier, one tier structure. AN HON. MEMBER: What do you mean by a two tier, one tier structure? MR. LUSH: I mean you have municipalities, right? In it there are municipalities and unincorporated areas. So with your municipalitity it is a two tier arrangement, your regional government, municipalities and then the one tier of course is where there are unincorporated areas. There is only one tier, the regional government. MR. NEARY: You have Hitler over there at the head of it. MR.

LUSH: The regional government. MR. NEARY: The Minister of Municipal Affairs, little Hitler. M.R. LUSH: The regional government, two tier, one tier. We have four levels of government in this Province. MR. SIMMONS: Mussolini with a - MR. LUSH: When this bill is through,

An Act To Establish The Northeast Avalon Urban Region, once this bill gets through the people of this area will be well represented, well represented, Mr. Speaker, well represented, federal, • provincial, regional and municipal. MR. F. WHITE: 145 members. MR. LUSH: Four levels of government. They will be well represented. At what cost? I have not come to that yet, Mr. Speaker. I will come to that a little later. But now I want to find what my - get back to my notes and find out what my third point was. Now I have it. My third point

June 22, 1978 Tape 4764 DW - 1 MR. LUSH: of objection, Mr. Speaker, to this bill was because of the unlimited power invested in regional government by this bill. The unlimited power. Power, Mr. Speaker, unprecedent. MR. NEARY: Dictatorship. MR. SIMMONS: Mussolini with a front loader. MR. LUSH: They can do just about anything in this area: Municipalitees - take lands from them, take property from them, anything at all, Mr. Speaker, this regional government can do. Powers invested, Mr. Speaker, in this regional government through this bill are incredible. Incredible!

Again,no doubt,an outfit that is going to be imposing regulations and restraints upon the people affected. God help us, Mr. Speaker, if that has to spreadithis regional government has to spread right throughout this Province. The people will never accept it, Mr. Speaker, never accept it. Never accept this - DR. KITCHEN They will have to change governments. MR. LUSH: -not under this structure, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker' have laid there is too much power;indeed I am not sure that any members here know how powerful this regional government will be. I am not sure we know how powerful they will be.

We could only look at the general powers that were spelled out, we know they are pretty powerful. But, Mr. Speaker, there are many powers here not spelled out when they should be.The powers should be spelled out in this book,what the regionalgovernments have. All we know,from looking at the generalities there.is that they are an all powerful outfit, and all powerful structure, an all powerful level of bureaucracy.

But we do not know precisely how powerful they are because it was not all spelled out and this is where the bill is defective as well in not specifically spelling out the kind of powers that this particular level of bureaucracy would have. It fails to do that, Mr. Speaker, it fails to do it.

June 22, 1978 Tape 4764 OW - 2 MR. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, what is this going to cost? What is this level of government going to cost the taxpayers of the Northeast Avalon urban region? That is the question that we should direct ourselves to. What is going to be the cost of this extra level of bureaucracy. What is going to be the cost of it? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) nothing. MR. LUSH: The regional government itself is not going to cost anything?

There is provision here for paid employees, Let me take a look to see what they are, Well, first of all they are allowed to get a regional clerk and that salary is to be .paid - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. LUSH: - that man is,or that woman that person is to be paid such salary as may be fixed by the regional council - MR. SIMMONS: It will be fixed all right. MR. LUSH: - to the regional clerk. That is one position, Mr. Speaker. Then there is going to be a regional manager and a regional manager again, the salary is to be fixed by the regional council. So that is two; regional clerk, regional manager.

Now thii provision in the act that the regional manager can be a regional clerk,they can put these two together, but that is not likely, not likely too. But, Mr. Speaker, those are two salaried positions. Then going over further it say4without limiting the generality of

section 110,the regional council on the written recommendation of the regional manager" listen to this,Mr. Speaker - "the regional council on the written recommendation of the regional manager may establish the offices of a regional collector, a regional engineer, superintendent of works, inspector of buildings, chief of the regionat fire brigade, regional treasurer, regional solicitor and such other officers as in the opinion of the regional council are appropriate and necessary to the administration of the region."

• June 22, 1978 Tape 4764 DW - 3 MR. F. WHITE: Empire building. AN HON. MEMBER: About a hundred bucks a year there now. MR. LUSH: That is

section 111. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is not going to cost that level of government, that regional government has advocated in this particular bill that is not going to cost any money not talking about the taxes, Mr. Speaker, that are going to administered on the people for services. Not counting that at all, not counting that. MR. F. WHITE: You have to pay those people. MR. LUSH: These are the positions, Mr.

Speaker, so that is not going to cost any money for the regional clerk, for the regional manager and for the regional collector add the regional engineer and the superintendent of works and the inspector of buildings and the chief of regional fire brigade and the regional treasurer and the regional solicitor and such other offices. Such other offices, Mr. Speaker, such other offices. How long is the such other offices. We do not know, Mr. Speaker, we do not know. All of

June 22, 1978 Tape 4765 IB-1 MR, LUSH: that is not going to cost any money, Mr. Speaker. That is not going to cost any money, no money at all. Then

section 14, clause 14 here says something about money .as well. "The Lieutenant Governor in Council may authorize the regional council to pay its chairman, vice chairman - and the other councillors such annual or other remuneration as may be contained in the authorization." Now, Mr. Speaker - MR. SIMMONS: They are going to be paid. (Inaudible) The Special Action Group were all volunteers,the Premier said. MR. LUSH: That is right. MR. SIMMONS: Volunteers, $47,000 a year, volunteers. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I think I have dispelled the idea that this is not going to cost any money.

I do not know but I might apply for a job there, get a look at the salaries and see. MR. SIMMONS: Had my chance. They are all filled. MR. LUSH: It looks like there is a job there for every MHA,if we want them,on both sides of the House by what I have listed, former ministers and - MR. SIMMONS: Except we are all going to be busy over here after the next election. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker - MR: SIMMONS: These fellows will need jobs. MR. LUSH: No trouble now, Mr. Speaker, for ex-candidates and ex- ministers to get a job. No problem now, Mr. Speaker, with this structure. No problem at all. Mr.

Speaker, then what are going to be the salaries of those people? What are they going to be paid? We have no idea. We only know that it is going to fixed by the regional council. The salaries are going to be fixed by the regional council. MR. SIMMONS: 'Fixedlis the word. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, with these some fifteen or twenty specified jobs and then the others left wide open. AN HON. MEMBER: The taxpayers will not be fixed. MR. SIMMONS: The member is being far too reasonable. There have got to

June 22, 1978 Tape 4765 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: be fifty or sixty or seventy jobs at the very outset. You know that. MR. LUSH: Oh, sure. Sure. But I just covered the ones that are specified. The ones that are specified, they are covered because the last one says and other officers that are needed that the regional council should see necessary to fill. MR. SIMMONS: Some might not even be officers. MR. LUSH: That is right, some of them might not even be officers. Well, Mr. Speaker, nobody knows what this is going to cost the taxoayers.

Nobody knows what this particular structure as it is enunciated in this bill, as it is outlined in this bill, the taxpayers of this Province or of the Northeast Avalon urban region have no idea what this is going to cost. But I venture to say it is going to be an astronomical amount, Mr. Speaker, an astronomical and an outrageous cost to set up this level of government as outlined in this particular bill. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me conclude, let me summarize by saying that I nor my colleagues object to the concept of regional government.

I think the kind of regional government that we have outlined here is not the kind of regional government,in the meantime, that should be advocated for this Province. I think we need a less expensive,a less complex system of regional management, a system that is geared more to the needs of this Province, a system that is born out of, a system that will grow out of the demands and the needs of the people, not something that is forced upon them, not something that is foisted upon them by an arrogant administration. That is not what we want.

This is why I have said this bill should be a White Paper so that we can get some feedback from our people. This should be a guideline as to what regional government is all about and this would start the conversation sort of thing, start the ball rolling in getting ideas from our people on what kind of regional system they would like to see. MR. SIMMONS: The former councillor from Corner Brook should have some thoughts on this subject. MR. LUSH; Mr. Speaker, I object because of the procedure. It was not the

June 22, 1973 Tape No. 4766 JM - 1 MR. LUSH: right procedure at all. It was an arrogant procedure. It was not a procedure of going out, talking to the people, getting information from them to find out uhat kind of government; what kind of regional government they would like to see and tell them the truth about regional government, tell them the truth about :Low much this is going to cost and what we are going to get in return. Mr. Speaker, do we need - Mr.

Speaker, I can tell you one thing that if this is extended, if this kind of regional government is extended right throughout the Province therein lies the solution to our unemployment problem. We have it licked. If this system of regional government is foisted upon all of Newfoundland we will have our unemployment problem licked. It will be solved. MR. SIMMONS: He should be the Minister of Manpower. ME. LUSH: It will be solved, Mr. Speaker.

It will be solved once we start hiring those regional.solicitors and those regional collectors and those superintendents of works, once we start hiring those people, those regional clerks, and the regional managers and the regional engineers and the regional treasurers - MR.'NEARY: Ex-cabinet ministers. ME- LUSH: Mr. Speaker, there are not enough ex-cabinet ministers or ex-defeated PC candidates in the Province to be able to take up all those jobs once it is spread throughout the Province. It will go a long ways to solving the unemployment problem, a long ways. MR. SIMONS: You have the real reason.

You have discovered the real reason. MR. LUSH: It is outrageous, Mr. Speaker, the cost of providing, the cost of administering this particular kind of government is going to be outrageous, the cost of administrating this regional government. Mr. Speaker, so I object on the basis of the procedure that was used, Mr. Speaker, in setting up this regional governtent. Instead of a plan that should have been welcomed by our people and welcomed by both sides of the House - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

Tape No. 4766 JR - 2 June 22, 1978 MR. LUSH: Is that right? Now, Mr. Speaker, I object on the basis of the kind of regional government that is ° advocated by this bill, a mixture of the two-tier, one-tier arrangement. It seems to be unworkable, Mr. Speaker, seems to be unworkable, this two-tier one-tier 9in St. John's we are going to have a two-tier. It is going to be this regional governtent and our municipality as well, another level of bureaucracy. Of course,in the other areas, the unincorporated areas they are just going to be a one-tier structure.

They are just going to have the regional government and there is nothing wrong with that as these people need something, these unincorporated areas need something but I am not sure this is what they need, this kind of system. AN HON. MEMBER: No plebsite and - MR. LUSH: And then, Mr.

Speaker, the powers - one must object, If everything was alright,if the procedure was right, the powers and if you agreed with the structure, with the political structure, with the authority - or not the authority but the political structure, the arrangement, if you agreed with it you could not agree with the powers that are invested in this particular bill, the powers invested that the regional government was given in this particular bill. Then, Mr. Speaker, the two unknowns;how much power will they have, how much power?We do not know because it is not spelled out.

There is only enough spelled out to frighten you. There are only enough powers spelled out to frighten a person, to make your hair stand on end. It is only enough for that, just enough for that. We do not know how powerful this regional government is going to be because the powers are not spelled out. The other unknown, Mr. Speaker, is the cost to the taxpayers and I am not talking about the cost in terms of paying for the services and the terms of taxes to the people.

I am talking about the cost of administering this regional government, the cost of administering this regional government with all of the jobs that are available. Mr. Speaker, for these reasons and others not listed I must vote against this particular bill. SOME EON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear:

• June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4766 JM - 3 11R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Kilbride. • :a. R. NELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am glad that the hon. member is giving qualified support to the bill. It is true, as he says that there will not be enough defeated Tory Candidates next time round to fill all these jobs but there will be a fair number of defeated Liberal candidates and we will have •to turn to them. •

June 22, 1978 MR. SIMMONS: on the phone. MR. R. WELLS: Tape No. 4767 NM - 1 He has been talking to Andy again Come on now. That is not worthy of the hon. member you know. That is not worthy, I suppose. MR. SDOIONS: It is very worthy. The last time you talked to Andy you did it here in the House-. MR. P.. WELLS: Yes. Well why not? Why not. You know. The hon. member is the one who plays with other people's telephone conversations. MR. SIMMONS: Tell us what Andy says. Tell us what the - MR. WEARY: Go down and make fun of your Cabinet meeting. MR. WELLS: The other people - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. WELLS: - Mr. Speaker, are the ones who play with people's telephone conversations. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) ignoramus. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! Order, please! I will have to call a recess if order is not maintained when order is called. I nterjections are not permitted at any stage but they are overlooked shall we say,if they do not interfere with the operations of the House and its progress or proceedings. A t this stage I think that they were very close to doing that. The hon. member for Kilbride. MR. R. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, on the principle of .__ this bill, first I would like to deal with the question of consultation. I do not suppose there has ever been a bill brought before this LegiSlature on which there has been more consultation. It started with the Henley Commission and I was representing the district which was St. John's South at the time, which was the present district of Kilbride plus what is now the district,or

• June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4767 NM - 2 MR. R. WELLS: most of the district of St. John's South, and we went to meeting after meeting, along with representatives of the communities, the town council, the Town Council of the Goulds, the Kilbride Citizens.

Committee, everybody else, Blackhead Road as it was then called and now Shea Heights, these people, and we'all went, the Petty Harbour - Maddox C(ave people and we had whatever input human beings could have into a discussion and that commission, the Henley Commission, held hearing all over the region and everybody who had anything and wanted to say it was permitted to say it and certainly the people from the district that I represent had their say and they had it fully. After all these hearings, and after all that diliberation a report came out. Now everything that was in the report the government did not adopt.

But it put out a bill last year, or brought before this House a bill to establish regional government which esentially took the 'recommendations of that report. Now again you talk about consultation. A lot of people at that time did not like the bill. A lot of the members in this hon. House did not like the bill and urged the government to withdraw it so that there could be more consultation.

And I was one who said. all right to my caucus and to the minister, if that is what is wanted and this is a serious matter, do not put the bill ahead this year, give it another year so that the people can say what they want, make what representations they want and come up with the bill next year. Now I do not know about anybody else. Everybody is free to have meetings in this country if they want to. But as far as the PC caucus is concerned, for the St.

John's area we got together throughout the past year, I do not know how many times but it was a lot of times and we talked about this_ particular bill and the concepts in it. And finally with the minister taking advice

• • • June 22, 1978 Tape No. 4767 NM - 3 • Mt. R. WELLS: from everybody that was available to take it from, including those who represented the people concerned in our caucus and I do not know if he had representations from the hon. member for St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen), perhaps he did or perhaps he did not, I know he had representations from community councils, town councils, from everybody, he then, and of course the officials in his department, he then came up with this bill.

And this bill has been circulated and made aware, we have been made aware of it and we have had the opportunity to talk with the people we represent and get their views on it and this is the bill that is now before the House. So I say this much and I want to put this on record insofar as Kilbride is concerned, the district of Kilbride, I have not had one representation or telephone call at all against this bill. I have sat down with the Kilbride Citizens Committee, headed by Mr. Albert Burke and a number of outstanding citizens of Kilbride, and I have gone through it line by line. They are in favour of it.

They want it to go through. And as late as last night I talked with Mr. Burke on the telephone again and we are going to have another meeting Monday evening to go through it again to see if there is anything that we are missing, or anything that they would want me to suggest in the committee stage that might be an improvement. If they do then I will suggest it, Mr. Speaker. But As far as the principle of this bill is concerned as it is now drafted and before the House, let me say categorically that they want it to go through and that is the word from my district. MR. SIMONS: Dict