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November 24, 2005

38th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2005-Nov-24 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 24 November 2005 Jeudi 24 novembre 2005

PRIVATE MEMBERS'

PUBLIC BUSINESS

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT

(COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT), 2005 /

LOI DE 2005

MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ÉDUCATION

(PARTICIPATION COMMUNAUTAIRE)

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM

AMENDMENT ACT, 2005 /

LOI DE 2005 MODIFIANT LA LOI

PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT

DE L'ENFANCE

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT

(COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT), 2005 /

LOI DE 2005

MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ÉDUCATION

(PARTICIPATION COMMUNAUTAIRE)

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM

AMENDMENT ACT, 2005 /

LOI DE 2005 MODIFIANT LA LOI

PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT

DE L'ENFANCE

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT

(COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT), 2005 /

LOI DE 2005

MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ÉDUCATION

(PARTICIPATION COMMUNAUTAIRE)

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM

AMENDMENT ACT, 2005 /

LOI DE 2005 MODIFIANT LA LOI

PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT

DE L'ENFANCE

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

PROPERTY TAXATION

HIGHWAY 101

CHINESE BUSINESS COMMUNITY

LAYOFFS

CHRISTOPHER BART

MINISTER OF EDUCATION

SAULT AREA HOSPITAL

TELEPERFORMANCE CANADA

MISS G PROJECT

VISITORS

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA JUSTICE /

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

JUSTICE POLICY

WEARING OF RIBBONS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

LOCAL HEALTH SYSTEM

INTEGRATION ACT, 2005 /

LOI DE 2005 SUR L'INTÉGRATION

DU SYSTÈME DE SANTÉ LOCAL

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

LOCAL HEALTH INTEGRATION NETWORKS

GROWTH PLANNING

LOCAL HEALTH

INTEGRATION NETWORKS

VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

LOCAL HEALTH

INTEGRATION NETWORKS

CHILD POVERTY

FEDERAL LIBERAL

ELECTION PROMISES

LAYOFFS

HIGHWAY 407

SKILLS TRAINING

ADDICTION SERVICES

PUBLIC HEALTH

SERVICES FOR THE

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

TRANSIT FUNDING

WATER QUALITY

HEALTH PROMOTION

DEATH OF CANADIAN SOLDIER

PETITIONS

LESLIE M. FROST CENTRE

GO TRANSIT TUNNEL

SERVICES FOR THE

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

AGGREGATE EXTRACTION

CANCER TREATMENT

PROPERTY TAXATION

PROSTATE CANCER

HIGHWAY 35

MACULAR DEGENERATION

SERVICES FOR THE

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

TENANT PROTECTION

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

BUDGET MEASURES ACT, 2005 (NO. 2) /

LOI DE 2005

SUR LES MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES (N O 2)

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS'

PUBLIC BUSINESS

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT

(COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT), 2005 /

LOI DE 2005

MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ÉDUCATION

(PARTICIPATION COMMUNAUTAIRE)

Mr. Fonseca moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 19,

An Act to amend the Education Act with respect to community involvement activity hours and board support / Projet de loi 19, Loi modifiant la Loi

sur l'éducation à l'égard des heures d'activité et de l'appui des conseils au

titre de la participation communautaire.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Pursuant to standing order 96, Mr. Fonseca, you have up to 10 minutes.

Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East): Volunteering is an incredible experience, where we share and learn from others and we all grow.

I have to say that my personal experiences with volunteerism have been some of the most rewarding in my life. I can recall a time when I was invited out to a

community, a community that didn't have very much in terms of things, material goods; it was a lower socio-economic community. I was asked to come out and work with a running group and take a bunch

of little runners out for a jog and talk a little bit about track and field. I remember arriving there with my equipment, putting my bag down and seeing about 40 eager little runners coming toward

me and asking me all sorts of different questions, many not dealing with track and field or with running; they were more to do with my personal life: where I grew up and what I like to eat and what

I like to do etc. Anyway, we went out for this little run, and when we came back -- I was asked by a community volunteer to come out and provide this workshop. We had a whole lot of fun. There was

a whole lot of learning there, and I learned so much from them.

At the end of this workshop, once we were done, I was packing up my bag, and one of those little runners came to me and put out his hands with a T-shirt that he

had been wearing. It was a T-shirt from the club, and he was offering it to me. I thought, "Wow, this is amazing." This little runner probably didn't have a lot of T-shirts in his closet, but for

him to be giving me that, I felt that he must have got something from what I did for him that day, or for the group. I accepted it, and grabbed a shirt from my bag and gave it to him. That was a

volunteer experience that was so rewarding. From that young gentleman I've got back tenfold what I put in. This was about 15 years ago, so I'm sure he's very successful today. I saw great

leadership skills and great enthusiasm in that little runner.

All other experiences I've had with volunteerism have been rewarding. I was working with the air cadets, and going out and doing the poppy drive and gathering

funds for our veterans. Working with the Special Olympics has been so rewarding. That is why I have asked to amend the Education Act and provide that the program where today secondary school

students must now put in 40 hours of volunteer time to be able to graduate be increased to 60 hours. That is because I've done much consultation with the community. In this rewarding job that we

have as MPPs, and where much of our work takes place in our community -- in my community of Mississauga East, having gone to schools and hospitals, the Salvation Army and seniors centres, all of

these different organizations really need those volunteers to survive, to thrive, to be able to be the best that they can be.

They've all told me that it has been unbelievable to have all these young volunteers come and work with them, but there have been some challenges. Those

challenges have been around the number of hours and also the policies, the procedures, the process that is involved in this program from school board to school board and school to school. Here's

what they said: Today it's 40 hours, and most students do get the 40 hours done and the volunteerism is a rewarding experience to them. But some students wait until the last minute, procrastinate

somewhat, and then put in all 40 hours in the last couple of months. When you do that, you may be doing it for the wrong reasons.

Yes, this is a terrific program and I think we should increase the hours. I've consulted with many students, and those who start early, in grade 9 or 10, and get

a few hours in, do well beyond 40 hours. Many of them that I've spoken with have put in 200 and 300 hours. They find that this has been incredible. The people they have met, the skills they have

learned to make them successful citizens, to get a better understanding of the community, to be that glue in the community, have been wonderful.

We do know that those who start early do a lot more than 40 hours and get a much more wholesome experience, and that is why I've asked that we build in, that we

increase it to 60 hours to help groups with volunteerism and to provide policies, procedures and process to the school boards to get those students started earlier and to build linkages with the

community.

Often students will find that the barriers are, "Well, I don't know what I can do. Where can I volunteer?" I want to make sure that those barriers get taken

away, so that the student knows he can volunteer with something like -- it could be a one-off, like tsunami relief, or it could be something like helping a senior in their neighbourhood in terms of

going to get groceries for that senior, or maybe at this time of year, shovelling their walk or their driveway or doing some leaf raking --

Mr. Jeff Leal (Peterborough): Putting up their Christmas lights.

Mr. Fonseca: Putting up their Christmas lights, yes, as the great member from Peterborough has just recommended. We have to look at many of

these things, all the opportunities that exist out there in the community. They don't have to think just about traditional volunteerism. Many volunteers do it also through their church, their

temple, their mosque or their synagogue. There are so many opportunities. The thing is that we have to make sure that students are aware of those opportunities as soon as they come into grade 9,

and that they get started early so that they get that full experience from volunteering.

I can go through a number of endorsements from people who have spoken very positively to this change: From Her Worship, Mayor Hazel McCallion: "Volunteerism is a

vital part of our society and it is especially important to get this message across to young people. For youth, volunteering brings a sense of confidence and enables them to develop their

communication and social skills that will be invaluable to them later in life"; from Peel Senior Link; from the past president of United Generations Ontario, who says, "By providing these

opportunities to our youth and them being able to interact with our seniors, there is a way to fill that gap between generations," which sometimes is difficult, because we don't understand each

other when there is that generational gap; from Michael Bator, director of the Dufferin-Peel Catholic District School Board, "Our schools provide a setting within which volunteerism can be

nurtured, not just as a natural and logical extension of good learning, but rather as an integral part of our community development."

It's about good citizenship, about being selfless, about understanding others. Many times, there are those who live in a different socio-economic strata,

different neighbourhoods, and we don't understand each other. Wouldn't it be great to break down those barriers, to have somebody go into a community that they don't understand, work with a

different ethnic group other than their own, and be able to get a flavour for other neighbourhoods, for the world? These are all invaluable experiences that cannot be gotten without

volunteerism.

Often when we go into a regular job, we're doing that job and we're in a setting that we may like, or not, and we're there to raise some funds. But with

volunteerism, the world is your oyster. You can do anything you'd like to do. You're able to find what you're passionate about. If you love sports, go volunteer with a sports group, a recreational

group. If you love to bake or cook, do so with a food bank or provide some food. Whatever you desire, you can find that opportunity through volunteerism. That's why I've asked all our members here

to support this change in the legislation.

The Deputy Speaker: Further debate.

Mr. Bob Delaney (Mississauga West): It's my pleasure and privilege to rise today to speak in support of Bill 19 by my colleague from Mississauga

East. Many of the members here today will speak to their legislative colleagues to ask support for the bill or to suggest areas in which it might be amended. I'd like to speak to the many thousands

of young men and women who will be affected by this bill, if it is passed, and who today are working to get their 40 hours of community service accomplished before graduation.

Earlier this week, I visited Erindale Secondary School in Mississauga to speak to a grade 12 business class about leadership and teamwork. Today's teens want to

make a difference, just as they did when I was a teen or when my parents were teens.

Between 1994 and 2003, I had the pleasure of teaching in the school of business studies at Ryerson University in Toronto. There I taught the 20-somethings.

Students at all levels are concerned with doing well as they move forward in life. Anyone who works with today's young people knows that we're leaving our future in the hands, in the hearts, and in

the minds and consciences of an outstanding generation of young people.

How do we help young people get a good start in life? One way is to show by example that learning is a process that happens outside the classroom and that

learning is a lifelong process that should be an essential part of the lives of concerned and involved citizens of tomorrow. Volunteerism is one of the strongest of those lifelong learning habits

and principles. But even good habits have to be learned, and every skill worth having needs to be practised over and over in many settings through the years.

Right now, high school students require 40 hours of community time before they graduate. The member from Mississauga East proposes that today's 40 hours of

community time be 60 hours of community time. One may ask, what difference would an extra 20 hours of volunteer community service make? It brings to mind the old story about the young boy who stops

a man in downtown Toronto asks him, "Sir, how do I get to Roy Thomson Hall?" The man looks at the young boy and replies, "Practice, my young friend, practice."

That is the difference those 20 hours will make. Those extra 20 hours are the difference between scrambling in the closing weeks of a student's final year and

learning to plan for an activity that needs to be a part of the life of every involved and concerned Canadian. Those extra 20 hours represent the practice that might change the student's perception

of volunteering from an obligation or chore into a vocation that's intrinsically rewarding and one that the student looks forward to rather than shies away from. More importantly, the larger

challenge for high school students is also a vital and precious treasure of time that our community-based organizations can call upon to make those very communities better.

When I'm in Mississauga classrooms talking about our communities and our neighbourhoods and I ask students who in their lives, outside their families, do they

look up to as a role model, we normally find that most of those teenage and childhood role models were volunteers. They were coaches. They were people who taught skills in the arts: dance, music

and language. Each year in Mississauga, we host the annual Ontario volunteer awards, and it has gotten so big that we've had to split it over two days rather than one. We've rewarded hundreds and

hundreds of men and women, many of whom have served upwards of 20 years in volunteer capacities in our community. Some have served five years. And it's very rewarding to see that each year we begin

to recognize more and more young people.

Volunteers serve in public safety within our police forces. Volunteers serve aboard our transit systems. Volunteers keep heritage languages and cultures alive

through their service in ethnocultural organizations. Volunteers also make our political organizations function.

One day at the Mississauga annual volunteer awards, I asked what was the aggregate total of volunteer years that the people being awarded would contribute, and

the aggregate total, if you could imagine it as an imaginary tunnel in time, would take you from today back into the days of ancient Rome. That's the sheer scale of the contribution that volunteers

have made.

There are challenges inherent in Bill 19. Right now, the onus on doing 40 hours rests largely on the student. Few community organizations plan for the available

time that students have to offer; fewer still have assigned tasks and jobs that can be delegated to students who are making up their community hours.

In rural areas, the fabric of social services is often spread thinner than it is in densely populated areas. In some areas, people have observed that

opportunities are fewer. As well, within some families students need to convert some of their time into cash to help make their families go or to save for their education. The proposal put forth by

the member from Mississauga East in Bill 19 is good news. It's one that I think deserves consideration in committee, and it's one that I urge in second reading.

Mr. Tony Ruprecht (Davenport): Bill 19 requires that students in the senior division complete no less than 60 hours of community involvement

before receiving their secondary school diploma. Bill 19, as proposed by the member from Mississauga East, is laudable. I listened with great attention to what he had to say and I'm totally

convinced that Bill 19 is good for Ontario students.

As we know, on December 5, which is just nine days away, the United Nations will recognize International Volunteer Day, so this bill comes in at exactly the

right time.

What does this bill actually propose? We know that to develop skills and gain some experience in real life -- some kids in my neighbourhood, for instance, are

born entrepreneurs. I know that the majority of the members here had either a paper route when they were 14 or a part-time job when they were 15 or some such experience that developed skills. You

were telling me just now that you were 16 when you took your paper route --

Mr. John Yakabuski (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke): I was six.

Mr. Ruprecht: Six years old; can you image that? That's just great. The major point in all this is that skills have to be developed, and this is

one of the biggest and greatest ways in which skills can be developed by young people.

We should ask ourselves, with Bill 19, this question: How do we best prepare our kids for the future? That question has been answered in a great book. It's

called The New Psycho-Cybernetics, and it's by Dr. Maltz. He asks in this book, what's the best indicator for the future success of the child? What's the best indicator that the child will be well

developed, will be healthy and will be successful in the future? Do you know what he comes up with? It boils down to a question of self-esteem, a sense of confidence that the child can do something

well. That is a great indicator. I know as well it involves the love of parents and the appreciation of the community. It indeed takes a community to raise a child, and what better way than Bill

19? What better way than to ask our children for 60 hours of community service, to volunteer, which is one of the greatest Christian virtues that we take from our own tradition here?

When we look at the indicators of why a child is successful, in this book Dr. Maltz says it isn't race that makes the big difference between the success of a

child in the future and depression or an unsuccessful future; it isn't necessarily parent education that's the big indicator; it isn't even the income that makes the difference between a child's

future success and future failure; and it isn't even sex, that is, whether a child is male or female. What it boils down to is a sense of confidence that the child can do something well. What

better way for our children to experience that wellness than in providing either some sense of help to senior citizens or some sense of help in our community? Therefore, I'm convinced that Bill 19

is good for Ontarians and certainly good for our children's future.

Ms. Monique M. Smith (Nipissing): I'm delighted today to get up and speak to the idea and the notion that volunteerism in our youth is an

important concept that we need to encourage and nourish in our society.

In my riding, we have a number of students who volunteer wholeheartedly in the program that is offered through their high school. As you know, Mr. Speaker, and

as many in the House know, I've spent a lot of time working in long-term care over the last two years. One of the things that I've learned in my time in long-term care is the importance of this

program to our long-term-care homes across the province. Through this program, we are able to attract youth into volunteer programs in our long-term-care homes and really improve the quality of

life for our seniors. As many people in this chamber know as well, the volunteer award program that the government has instituted, where we recognize each fall our volunteers across the province,

has a special component for our youth, where we again recognize those youth who have contributed so much to our community.

In my community of Nipissing, I have instituted an award, and it's based on the fact that our students are required to provide 40 hours of service. What I've

done is gone and sought out through the guidance counsellors those students who have really devoted themselves to the program, who have contributed above and beyond the 40 hours and have really

shown a commitment to volunteerism and to community service. I've instituted an award in my riding, which I present at all of the graduations in my community. It's the Dick Smith award. It's named

in honour of my father, who, as you know, was a member here in this Legislature for 12 years and contributed a great deal to the community. I know that for him, volunteerism was a really important

notion. He certainly encouraged us as children to volunteer in a number of different activities and was very committed to recognizing the volunteers who worked so hard in our community, the unsung

heroes. I think those unsung heroes don't actually just spring up, but have to be encouraged and have to be recognized.

In my community, in 2004, I recognized the following students who, instead of 40 hours toward their volunteer service program, had in some cases contributed over

and on the French side, Robyn Bangs; at Algonquin, Nathalie Desrosiers; and at Chippewa, Sarah-Jayne McKenzie.

This year again, in June, I was delighted to be able to recognize the 2005 award winners: at Scollard, Darren Daniel Louis Jobin; at Widdifield, Kaitlin Merritt;

All of those students have contributed so very much to our community and have really created a sense of community through their involvement in the volunteer

program.

I know that 40 hours is a huge commitment for some of our students. For some of our students, especially in the rural communities, there is a challenge. But I

think we have to work with our school boards in order to recognize some forms of volunteer work that may be broader than the definition that we now have for volunteer work. I think it is important

that we nurture this program and encourage our students to link into their communities and contribute wherever they can, be it a fall fair, an agricultural fair. At home we have the heritage

festival in the summer over the August long weekend, where we have so many students who volunteer and put in 40 hours just over that weekend, because they spend so much time at the heritage

festival contributing to the safety and well-being of all of our guests. We invite so many people to the heritage festival; there are thousands who attend every year.

There are a number of opportunities for our students to achieve the hours that they're required to achieve now, and I'd just like to take this opportunity to

commend all of those students who throw themselves wholeheartedly into the program and encourage them to keep contributing to their communities. It's a good foundation, and it makes great citizens

of the future. So I commend my colleague for this bill, and I am delighted to be able to speak to it today.

Mr. Yakabuski: It's a pleasure to speak to Bill 19 this morning, brought forth by the member from Mississauga East, I believe.

Ms. Laurie Scott (Haliburton-Victoria-Brock): Yes.

Mr. Yakabuski: Thank you very much. I can't find it, but I rely on my memory from time to time, and it does actually work sometimes.

I support the bill that the member has introduced in the Legislature. It was the PC government that introduced the concept of volunteer hours, community service

hours, as a part of achieving a secondary school graduation diploma. We have seen the importance of that initiative, and the member's interest in increasing that to 60 hours is something I

support.

The importance of volunteerism has been touched on by both the member from Mississauga East and the member from Mississauga West. It is something that cannot be

overlooked, and we support that tremendously. When you look at all our communities, they simply wouldn't exist, or they would look vastly different, without the efforts of volunteers and the

contributions they make. The idea of introducing young people to the practice of volunteerism at an earlier age is something that needs to be encouraged. You are far more likely to be an adult

volunteer if you've been involved as a volunteer as a young person than if you are asked at the age of 30 or so, "Would you like to join one of our volunteer organizations?" The likelihood is far

greater if you've been involved as a young person.

As was said, it is a challenge for so many people to continue to be volunteers, but the number of volunteers we have in our community today and the number of

ceremonies we have honouring them are very important: an indication of the number of volunteers and the importance of their service to the community. When my daughter Emily went into grade 9, she

completed her 40 hours of volunteer community service before the year was halfway finished. But she had a lot of opportunities to do so. We encouraged her, and she wanted to do it on her own as

well, and she has continued to work in that capacity.

However, there are some rural challenges that make it more difficult for people to get to those places that can offer them the opportunity to fulfill this

obligation. The member said that school boards have to be supportive with programs and policies. That's easy to say. But what we're not getting is support from the Minister of Education and the

ministry with regard to rural support. Five rural schools have been closed in my riding this year, and the transportation issue in my riding is becoming more critical every day. The people who

operate buses are even concerned that they can no longer stay in the business of getting our children to and from school safely. So the challenge of volunteerism for these people grows ever

greater.

I would say to the member that the pressure has to be put on his Minister of Education to support transportation in rural areas and to stop dithering. He's had

two years to deal with this. He promised to keep rural schools open. He broke that promise. He has promised to support them in the transportation issues, and he is breaking that promise as we

speak. Every day, the circumstances surrounding rural transportation become more and more desperate in ridings like my own of Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke.

While there is great reason to support this bill, and I think communities as a whole will benefit by it and the students themselves will benefit by it, we have

to understand that every area is not exactly the same. The circumstances that volunteer students trying to achieve those community hours have to face in ridings like mine of

Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke are different from those in Mississauga East or Mississauga West. The minister, who has been missing in action on the file with regard to support for rural schools, had

better show his face and show it soon and show some support for those people.

Ms. Scott: I'm very pleased to speak in the Legislature today in support of the bill presented by the member from Mississauga East, the

Education Amendment Act, which would increase the number of volunteer hours required of high school students from 40 to 60 and also require school boards and schools to take a more active role in

assisting young people in completing their volunteer hours.

I represent the very rural riding of Haliburton-Victoria-Brock, with a number of organizations, charities and foundations. I know first-hand the value of

volunteering. In my household, volunteering was a way of life; I just didn't know it was called volunteering. We all participated in all our community events and gave our hours. It was a great

building block for any young person.

Since I've had the opportunity to be the representative from Haliburton-Victoria-Brock, I'd say my favourite job is going out and thanking all the volunteers for

the many, many hours of time and the effort and energy they put into various organizations within the riding for worthy causes.

Every year, the majority of Ontarians are compelled to donate canned goods to our local food bank, drop off toys at the children's charities and run or walk in

fundraising events. These are tiny gestures when compared to the significant commitment made by the diverse community we have of dedicated volunteers throughout our whole province. Really, they are

the true unsung heroes, these volunteers. The toy drives they organize, the sleepless nights they spend staffing arts and cultural festivals -- they're people who interact with community leaders to

bring together the funding, manpower and resources that are necessary to launch the ambitious fundraising events. It can be selfless and, at times, thankless, which makes the introduction of

volunteering to young Ontarians all the more important.

I commend the member from Mississauga East for his efforts to uphold the tradition of giving back to the less fortunate in our communities. This is an invaluable

lesson to teach young people that cannot be emphasized enough. When I go to the high schools, sometimes they give me a hard time about the 40 hours they have to do before they leave. But 10 hours

per year is not a lot. We need to really re-emphasize that to our young people.

The bill would incorporate volunteer activities within the instructional time on a school day. If a class should wish to adapt their educational lessons into a

clothing drive, a fundraising project or a community cleanup assignment, they are free to earn the credited volunteer hours to put toward their high school diploma. I think that's a brilliant idea.

The ones I just mentioned are only a few of the many inventive examples that high school students across the province are devoting their free time to.

We have to encourage more young people to volunteer in their community. It's not only the less fortunate who benefit. Many studies have shown that connecting

youth with non-profit charitable organizations brings out the best qualities in young people themselves: Improvements occur in their academic performance, there's an increased level of self-esteem,

and social skills are enhanced, not only among their peers but with adults. The most important improvement in the life of young volunteers is the invaluable lesson they receive in empathy.

"Experience learning," as this is, is often used to describe non-traditional learning strategies and settings. Volunteering is the ultimate opportunity for this

type of experience learning. The enriched experience of young people in a volunteer environment helps us to build healthier, safer communities.

Family Services of Haliburton county, in my riding, offers an impressive, up-to-date on-line system that lists volunteering opportunities. The training,

supervision and support staff services provided by the staff of Family Services of Haliburton County are exhaustive. Those staffers ensure that all volunteers are well trained and entirely

comfortable with their volunteer responsibilities.

I know the young people have busy, busy lives, but I think there's a lot of enthusiasm. If we can educate them to the benefits -- I tell them, "It's great

networking; you get to meet great people. Don't pass up this opportunity. Yes, it's mandatory now, but it will come back to you tenfold within your community."

I'm very happy to support the member from Mississauga East's bill today, and I'm sure all members of the House will do so.

Mr. Frank Klees (Oak Ridges): I am certainly going to support the proposal made here. But what I am not sure of, Speaker, is whether, at the

time the previous government introduced the concept of mandatory community involvement, the honourable member's party supported that. In fact, my recollection -- I'm checking with the table to see

what the vote was at the time. I stand to be corrected, and if so, let the record so show. There was considerable debate at the time, you will recall, because you were part of the debate, and I do

believe the Liberal caucus at the time voted against the concept of community volunteerism on the part of our young people. The idea at the time was very simple, and that is to get young people

familiar with the concept of becoming involved in their community and doing their part.

There are really two aspects of this legislation. One is the idea of increasing the required number of hours from 40 to 60. The second is to provide resources to

ensure that students have the opportunity to become involved. I'm not sure about the increase from 40 to 60 hours, frankly. I'm not going to struggle on this one, but if the idea is to engage young

people in the concept of volunteerism, to introduce them to the concept of volunteerism, whether an additional 20 hours really makes that much difference or not, I'm not convinced.

Here is something that is not in the bill that I think perhaps should be in the bill, now that we've had some time to contemplate the practical implications,

and that is that, right now, school time or instructional time within the school day is not allowed to be considered part of the volunteer activity. In other words, if an activity was to arise

within the community and that activity happens to be during instructional time, it doesn't qualify for this volunteer time. I think that would be a legitimate amendment to the proposed legislation

and perhaps something that could be considered by the minister. Many opportunities would occur where, during instructional time, a community event takes place. Let's engage young people in that,

enable them to participate in that and have that qualify. Right now, even with this bill before us, that wouldn't be accommodated.

Another aspect here is an issue -- it was referenced briefly -- particularly amongst rural students, and that is their ability to get to the place where they

would volunteer. This Minister of Education is already shortchanging school boards across the province in terms of transportation facilities and accommodating resources for transportation. This

would certainly be something I would support, in terms of ensuring that transportation opportunities are made available, through busing to events within a community, from a school to a public event

where young people can volunteer and become engaged. That's a practical application of this, but good luck to the honourable member to convince his Minister of Education to do that, because his

Minister of Education is refusing to fund even the basic shortfalls within the transportation requirements of our school system in rural schools.

In the final analysis, I will of course in principle support the bill, because volunteerism is good. It's appropriate for young people to become engaged in

volunteer activities. It's appropriate for the school boards to encourage that. I'm very pleased to say that the York region school boards, both the public and the Catholic boards, have been

engaged in this for many years, even before the legislation made it a mandatory requirement. So with regard to this proposal before us, I would say that I welcome the new-found faith that the

Liberal caucus has in volunteerism. I'm glad they have seen the light, and I will support them in ensuring that we can make this more accessible for young people, that we can overcome some of the

barriers that may well be in the way of young people becoming more actively engaged in their community.

M. Gilles Bisson (Timmins-Baie James): C'est le fun d'être ici avec vous ce matin pour débattre cette résolution. Je veux dire

premièrement que la résolution telle que -- sur le principe, je pense qu'il n'y a pas un député dans la Chambre qui va dire, « Je suis contre le monde qui fait du

bénévolat. » Je ne pense pas que c'est quelque chose qu'un député veut se mettre sur le record en disant qu'il est contre. Mais il y a un couple d'affaires, et on a

besoin d'être clair avec ce projet de loi comme on a eu besoin d'être clair quand les conservateurs ont introduit la notion -- je pense en 1996 ou 1997, quand ils l'ont fait la

première fois -- de forcer quelqu'un à faire du travail volontaire.

Premièrement je pense que, aujourd'hui, la plupart de nos jeunes sont très respectueux, ils travaillent fort, ils sont sérieux et ils veulent

avancer dans la société. J'ai une grosse confiance en la jeunesse d'aujourd'hui. Il y a beaucoup de monde qui disent des fois, quand ils deviennent un peu plus vieux, « Les

jeunes d'aujourd'hui ne sont pas comme ils étaient dans le passé. » Non, ils ne sont pas comme ils étaient dans le passé. Je pense qu'ils sont plus éduqués,

qu'ils sont plus éveillés et qu'ils comprennent mieux leur place dans la société, même jusqu'à un certain point plus que nous autres on a compris quand on avait 15, 16

ou 17 ans.

Le point que je veux faire est que la plupart de ces jeunes-là sont déjà engagés dans leur communauté. Ils ont fait parti des scouts;

ils ont fait parti des cadets de l'armée, de la marine et de l'air. Ils ont fait parti de différents groupes dans leurs communautés. Donc ce n'est pas comme les jeunes

d'aujourd'hui : les jeunes d'il y a 10 ans n'ont jamais fait du travail volontaire. Je veux mettre ça sur le record parce que c'était une

partie du débat qui m'avait un peu

ennuyé quand on l'avait eu la première fois, quand les conservateurs ont introduit les changements à la

Loi sur l'éducation, je pense en 1996 ou 1997, où ils ont dit,

« On va forcer les jeunes à faire du volontaire. » Nous, les néo-démocrates, tels que les libéraux de la journée, disions, « Écoute, on

n'est pas contre l'idée de mettre un mécanisme en place pour aider les jeunes à faire du travail volontaire quand ils sont en secondaire, mais on a un problème avec la question

de forcer le monde à faire quelque chose. » Une société libre, quant à moi, est une société où on donne aux individus des choix et où on essaie de

renforcer les choix d'une manière positive. Je pense que c'est le point que je veux faire.

On va supporter la motion parce qu'on pense, à la fin de la journée, que ce n'est pas une méchante idée de trouver des manières pour

augmenter les mécanismes nécessaires pour faire cet ouvrage volontaire -- ça fait

partie de la motion que le député a soulevé -- mais, comme je le vous dis pour le

record, je veux faire un couple de points.

Premièrement, sur la question des jeunes faisant du travail volontaire : ce qui manque présentement dans nos écoles, c'est le

mécanisme pour aider les jeunes à faire leur placement de volontaire. Comme on le sait présentement, il y a deux manières du programme dans le secondaire. Il y a

premièrement les programmes coop, où les jeunes vont travailler quelque part pour une période de temps et rechercher des expériences de travail pour les aider à faire un

choix de, en 11 e ou 12 e année, où qu'ils veulent aller quand ça vient au postsecondaire; s'ils veulent aller à l'université ou au collège -- quel

choix ils veulent faire comme job.

Le programme coop fait, dans mon opinion, beaucoup de bon sens. Une lacune qu'on a dans le système, quand on connaît tout, est que le système

d'éducation, les écoles secondaires et les commissions scolaires, n'a pas la capacité, n'a pas le financement nécessaire pour vraiment mettre en place toutes les

opportunités possibles pour permettre aux jeunes de faire des choix quand ça vient au programme coop. Je sais que, par exemple, dans notre communauté on a du personnel qui est

très dévoué, comme Marcel Camirand et autres, qui travaille dans la commission scolaire pour être capable de mettre en place ces programmes coop. S'il y a une plainte que

j'entends dire par les jeunes, par le monde comme Marcel et aussi par le staff à la commission scolaire et par le secteur privé, c'est que des fois on n'a pas le financement

nécessaire pour être capable d'assister les employeurs à faire de la place dans leur milieu de travail pour ces jeunes-là.

Je pense qu'une affaire que j'aimerais faire est que le gouvernement provincial fait tout ce qui est possible pour assurer que les employeurs sont

accommodés pour donner une chance aux jeunes de rentrer au milieu de travail. Par exemple, supposons qu'un jeune veut devenir électricien. Il y a très peu d'opportunités parmi

les employeurs chez nous pour faire un coop pour ces jeunes-là pour aller travailler dans une mine, dans une scierie ou au moulin à pâtes et papier parce qu'il y a certaines

accommodations qu'on a besoin de faire dans un moulin. On a besoin de s'assurer avec le syndicat. On a besoin de s'assurer que les affaires sont faites d'une manière où la convention

collective est respectée. Deuxièmement, il y a toute la question de sécurité. On a besoin de s'assurer que les jeunes-là sont bien entraînés, avant de rentrer

dans le milieu de travail -- au danger du milieu de travail. Numéro trois, il faut préparer les jeunes pour ce qu'ils vont expérimenter une fois qu'ils sont rentrés dans le

milieu de travail et qu'ils commencent à travailler sur la machinerie. Imaginez-vous un jeune de 17 ans qui rentre dans le moulin à Kapuskasing ou dans une scierie à Hearst ou dans

une mine à Timmins, et que tout à coup il regarde un morceau d'équipement avec un moteur de 2 000 forces. C'est pas mal grave; c'est pas mal dangereux. Il faut s'assurer que ces

jeunes-là sont préparés pour cette expérience.

Une affaire que je veux voir est qu'on met emphase sur supporter nos commissions scolaires pour être capables de mettre en place ce qui est

nécessaire pour aider ces jeunes-là à faire l'expérience du programme coop. Je pense, comme dernier point que je veux faire sur le programme-là, qu'il faut aussi

reconnaître que c'est une excellente initiative pour aider nos jeunes à faire un choix qui fait du bon sens. Une

partie du problème est que, comme on sait -- quand j'avais 16 ans, 17

ans, je voulais être astronaute, ingénieur, en avion, je voulais faire bien des affaires, mais les moyens, la capacité, n'était pas là. Je n'avais pas les capacités

financières, au moins l'éducation, pour le faire. Un peu plus tard --

Mr. Fonseca: You're a pilot.

M. Bisson: I'm a pilot now but that's a different story. I was forced to fly. That's another issue.

Ce qui arrive, c'est qu'on devient plus capable de faire des décisions sur où on veut travailler si on a des expériences à travers notre

secondaire dans un placement coop. Je pense que le coop ne doit pas arriver qu'une seule fois. Je pense qu'on doit avoir un programme coop qui commence en neuvième et finit en douzième

pour que les jeunes puissent avoir de différentes expériences. Possiblement, le coop de la neuvième année est moins intense que celui de la douzième, mais cela donne aux

jeunes -- j'ai vu le sciage, j'ai vu les métiers, j'ai vu la technique, l'ingénieur et différentes affaires qui donnent aux jeunes l'opportunité de faire un choix.

Les mêmes principes ont besoin d'être appréciés et, je pense, acceptés quand ça vient au programme de volontaires. Une affaire

qu'on entend très bien auprès des étudiants c'est que les commissions scolaires, les secondaires, n'ont pas la capacité parfois de les aider à faire des choix pour le

programme où ils veulent faire du bénévolat. Par exemple, il y a beaucoup d'opportunités de faire du travail volontaire dans une communauté qui n'est pas reconnue dans le

programme présent. Des jeunes qui veulent aller faire du travail volontaire dans certains domaines ne sont pas vus comme pouvant le faire -- contre le caractère qu'ils sont supposés

avoir. Je pense qu'on a besoin de faire une expansion d'où on peut faire du travail volontaire. Quant à moi, le travail volontaire doit être bien proche, n'importe où, si

ça ne marche pas sur les droits de la personne et que ça ne fait pas d'affaires négatives.

Par exemple, j'ai parlé aux députés. Dans la dernière élection, en 2003, on a eu pas mal de jeunes, une vingtaine de jeunes, à

Timmins, et d'autres à Kap et à Hearst, qui sont venus faire du travail volontaire dans la campagne chez nous. J'imagine que les libéraux et les conservateurs ont eu la même

affaire. Je pense que c'était une excellente opportunité pour un jeune d'être capable d'expérimenter un peu ce que c'est, la politique, comment c'est organisé, comment on

écrit des dépliants, comment tu fais les médias et comment tu prends contact avec le public. Ça donne aux jeunes une opportunité excellente d'apprendre un peu plus sur leur

communauté et d'apprendre plus sur la question de comment ça marche, la politique. Dans ce cas-là, ces heures de volontaires ne peuvent pas être comptées, ce qui est

triste, parce que la dernière fois que j'ai vérifié, il n'y avait rien de mal dans le fait d'être un politicien. Ce n'est pas une méchante affaire. Deuxièmement, le

processus politique démocratique n'est pas une méchante affaire. Pourquoi ne compte-t-on pas notre expérience pour avoir nos heures de volontaire?

L'autre point que je ferais est sur la question de s'assurer que les commissions scolaires ont la capacité et le financement nécessaires pour aider

les jeunes à faire leur choix et à les supporter dans ce choix. Par exemple, parfois l'école secondaire n'a pas le personnel nécessaire pour aider les jeunes à faire des

choix sur où ils peuvent aller pour rechercher leurs heures de volontaires. Je pense que c'est triste, parce que ça minimise jusqu'à un certain point les choix que les jeunes peuvent

prendre sur ce point-là. Je veux dire aux députés libéraux qui ont mis cette motion en place que je n'ai pas de problème avec le concept, mais je veux être clair pour

le record : je ne suis pas bien d'accord avec l'idée de forcer quelqu'un à faire quelque chose dans une société civilisée. Mais on comprend ce qu'ils essayent de faire

et on ne va pas s'opposer à ce point-là.

Deuxièmement, on a besoin de donner, puis je vois dans ce projet de loi qu'il essaie de s'adresser à ces questions, directement au staff des

commissions scolaires la capacité financière pour accommoder les jeunes.

In the last couple of minutes I've got, I want to find out if my good friend Andrea wants four minutes on this.

Ms. Andrea Horwath (Hamilton East): No, that's fine.

Just to say a couple of things very quickly for the record and for those who were watching and didn't get chance to pick up the translation, just to be clear,

on the surface of this, I don't have a problem supporting a bill that assists kids when it comes to volunteering in their communities. No MPP, no politician wants to stand against that train. But I

think a couple of things need to be said.

One is that I have great confidence in the youth of today. I know we sometimes hear people of our generation talk about kids, "Oh my God, they aren't like we

were when we were kids." I'll tell you, I was a lot worse than any of you. I admit that freely. I grew up at a time when it was pretty wild and woolly at the end of the 1960s and early 1970s. I

have ultimate confidence in the generation of today. I think kids are probably more aware of what's around them than we were. I think socially they're probably much more progressive than we were,

to a certain extent. I think they're much more serious than we were. That's the thing that strikes me. When I was in grade 7 to grade 12, I'll tell you, I wasn't very serious at all. As a matter of

fact, I was so unserious that I quit in grade 11 to go into the army because I thought that was a great adventure. I took off to serve my nation for couple of years in the Canadian armed

forces.

My point is that back then, for whatever reason, we didn't take things as seriously as kids do today. I think partly it's the economy and partly it's that our

values have changed somewhat. When I grew up, there was lots of employment. If you knocked at the door of one employer that gave you a job tomorrow, you could quit in the afternoon and get another

high-paying job the next day. There were a lot of industrial jobs out there where you didn't need to have university and college to make a very good living. I think kids recognize today that it's

not the same game any more. If you're going to succeed in this world, as far as having an income to be able to support yourself in the lifestyle you want as you get older, it's going to take

post-secondary education. I think most kids understand that far more than we did. I've got ultimate confidence that the young generation of today is going to leave this world a better place than we

left it. I want to put that on the record.

Number two, to recognize that kids --

Mr. Delaney: We left it better than our parents.

Mr. Bisson: We left it better than our parents, and they're going to leave it better than us. But our parents didn't do a bad job, either, I

must say. Anyway, that's a whole other debate.

The other thing I want to say is that kids do volunteer already. We need to put that on the record because there are children across our society who, from very

early ages until their high school days and after, are involved in all kinds of things. They're involved in sports groups and community groups, they volunteer at the soup kitchen, they volunteer at

their churches and all over. I'm always aware, as all of you are, that every time I go to most events that have to do with things in our community, there are young people involved making things

happen. I think we need to recognize that it already happens and this should not be seen as forced volunteerism. We should be looking at this as how we provide the tools to the high schools to give

them the dollars and the support necessary to help young people make more choices about where they can volunteer. As we know, most of you who are in the school system, there are very limited

opportunities for volunteerism in the current system, and we need to expand that in some way. If we were to do that, I think it would be a better thing.

Again, I want to put on the record that I'm not for forced volunteerism. I have a bit of a problem with that concept, and I think most of us do. But I'll take

this as an enhancement of what we currently have. I look forward to the work at committee to make that happen.

On the last point, I'd just say that, at the end, whenever this bill does go to second reading, one of the issues that we really need to take a look at is to

try to strengthen it in ways that guarantee the author of the bill gets what he wants in the end, and that is to make sure that the government understands that this is going to take some bucks. You

can't just pass a bill and not give our school boards the kind of support they need financially to make this happen. We need to make sure that our school boards are properly funded, that they have

the staff necessary to do what has to be done under this bill. Allowing this bill to pass at third reading and be enacted and proclaimed without the school boards getting the financial support they

need is, I think, a recipe for disaster. We need to be very clear about that as we go into committee hearings to make sure that that part of it is done.

The Deputy Speaker: Mr. Fonseca, you have two minutes to reply.

Mr. Fonseca: I want to thank all the members who spoke to Bill 19 -- the members for Mississauga West, Davenport, Nipissing,

Renfrew−Nipissing−Pembroke, Haliburton−Victoria−Brock, for Oak Ridges and for Timmins−James Bay -- and how they provided the experiences that they're finding in their

communities when it comes to volunteerism and when it comes to our youth. I have to reiterate what the member for Timmins−James Bay said: Our youth today are so resourceful. They are amazing.

They are doing extraordinary things in all sectors of our community.

This piece of legislation is about making a program better. We're going to make it better by listening, really, not just to us here in this room. I want to

thank all those students, all the youth, all the volunteer groups that were able to provide me so much input into how we can make it better. It was really about taking away barriers from the

opportunity to volunteer.

I actually got an e-mail yesterday from a student, Carly Carrigan, from Cardinal Carter Catholic High School. She's taking

part in the CBC series Making the

Grade. I love this. She has said, "I looked directly at the bill, Mr. Fonseca, that you're trying to pass and I was wondering if we could work together to make it better, to make it the perfect

bill." This is what it's all about. It's about making sure that we work with the students to provide that opportunity and make volunteerism habitual, to make it a positive thing that they're going

to want to do for the rest of their lives.

I thank you very much for giving me the opportunity here to speak to this wonderful part of our community, which is volunteerism.

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM

AMENDMENT ACT, 2005 /

LOI DE 2005 MODIFIANT LA LOI

PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT

DE L'ENFANCE

Mr. Craitor moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 8,

An Act to amend the Children's Law Reform Act / Projet de loi 8, Loi modifiant la Loi portant réforme du droit de l'enfance.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Pursuant to standing order 96, Mr. Craitor, you have up to 10 minutes. You have the floor.

Mr. Kim Craitor (Niagara Falls): It's a great pleasure. I'd like to start out by introducing some special guests who have taken the time to be

here with us this morning. In the gallery are Judy Cutler, Michelle Taylor-Fernandez and Bill Gleberzon of the Canadian Association of Retired Persons, affectionately known as CARP. We also have

Kyriacos Kyriacou of Grandparenting Again Canada and Sheila Volchert of Second Chance for Kids. In addition, we have at least 30 or more very special guests as well, and they are grandparents from

all across Ontario who have taken the time to be here.

Grandparents' access and custodial rights is an issue that is not going to go away. There are some very human faces of people who care passionately for and

love their grandchildren, but they have been denied visitation access or are currently raising grandchildren after experiencing a lot of difficulty establishing their rights before law. Far too

often, as many of you in this House may know, in a messy divorce case, for example, access to children of the marriage has been used as a lethal weapon. Spite, hatred, revenge and anger can be an

awful thing, but no child should be its weapon. Let me outline to you how I came to realize that far too often in this battleground, parents also lose access to their grandchildren.

When I was first elected, one of the first groups that came in to see me was a number of grandparents from my community. During that hour or hour and a half of

our discussion, I realized the significance and problems that grandparents have. Thanks to their help and the help from grandparents across Ontario, we formulated and are bringing this bill

forward. I also want to say that, unfortunately, somewhere along the line, when it comes to grandchildren, emotion clouds judgment as to what is in the best interests of the child.

Bill 8 will amend the Children's Law Reform Act to emphasize the importance of children's relationships with their grandparents. Specifically, the bill will

require parents and others with custody of children to refrain from unreasonably placing obstacles to personal relations between the children and their grandparents. The proposed legislation

contains a list of matters that a court must consider when determining the best interests of a child, including a specific reference to the importance of maintaining emotional ties between the

children and the grandparents. It also requires courts to take into consideration each applicant's willingness to facilitate as much contact between the child and each parent and grandparent as

consistent with the best interests of the child.

The legislation is commonly referred to as the grandparents' rights legislation. A modified form of my proposal has already been considered in the Yukon and in

six other provinces, including Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.

On its face, this is a very modest bill. It will cost the province nothing. The bill is simply about grandparental access and the nurturing development of

their grandchildren; nothing more, nothing less. Grandparental access and visitation rights are a huge and growing problem. Boomers are now grandparents. They are articulate, concerned and

committed. They have a voice and their voice needs to be heard.

I mentioned this situation when I introduced a bill about a year and a half ago. At that time, I was blown away by the number of phone calls, e-mails, letters,

people visiting my office, describing pain and suffering that caring grandparents suffered as children's relationships broke down in high matrimonial conflict situations. After the introduction of

the bill back then, my office received well over 2,000 contacts, again by mail, phone calls, e-mails or personal visits. Many of them came not only from Ontario, they came from across provinces in

Canada, including the United States and even outside of that.

In many cases, the children were used as weapons, first in custody and then denied access to their grandparents. The relationship of a child to their

grandparents can be a beautiful and self-affirming association. Not all these situations are caused only by divorce.

I was particularly taken by a case in my own riding of Niagara-on-the-Lake. Marie and Herb Lewis had written me a letter, and I will share that with you. I

still remember reading the letter. I think I see it every other day in my mind -- a very emotional situation. Their daughter had passed away far, far too young. The husband had remarried and, since

then, has denied them access to their daughter's children. I agreed with them when they wrote me, "Nobody should have the right to deny the children the love they deserve."

I would like the House to also hear a couple of other e-mails, because that's the reality of the bill. It's about personal situations that grandparents are

going through.

Here's one that I received about a month ago: "I am praying this bill passes. My son committed suicide and my daughter-in-law has become angry at him and our

entire family. We live in Nova Scotia. She lives in Ontario. I have a grandson there looking just like my son who is gone. Please, please, give it your best effort and thank you from the bottom of

our hearts."

Another e-mail: "Mr. Craitor, Bill 8 is not only for grandparents of children involved in separation or divorce. I'm a grandparent being denied access to my

eight-year-old grandson by his parents as revenge for me not allowing them to bully me into giving them half of the ownership of my house. They lived with me for the first five years of my

grandson's life. I was totally involved with them on a daily basis.

"This bill will allow me to fight for the right to see him. I miss him terribly. I know he misses me. Do you not think that this is harmful to him as a child

that is involved with a separation or divorce. He lost his loving grandmother.

"Please continue and ask everyone to support this bill. Thank you."

I could go on. As I said, I think I have probably over 2,000 of these e-mails and personal stories that I could certainly share.

One last one that I want to share, and this came in just a couple of weeks ago from an individual. The letter says: "I lost my daughter in a car crash on March

19. She left behind a little girl who was 18 months old. We more or less raised our granddaughter as the father of the baby walked out on her when our granddaughter was three months old. Since the

day of her birth, we've been extremely close with our granddaughter. After the incident, the father took her to live with him and wouldn't allow us to come and visit him. We would have to go to his

parents' house to see her for a couple of hours. We finally had to go to court to gain access to her. Right now, after a lot of fight, we have access to our beautiful granddaughter every other

weekend. Although we are quite happy, but we want more access. She is ours, all we have from our daughter, and we feel she should be with us rather than her paternal grandparents. When she is with

us she is so happy, she doesn't want to go back. It really breaks our hearts to see her little sad face. We wish things could be different. We miss our daughter very much and it's really hard to

get by day to day. We just wait for our weekend access to see our granddaughter. We thought that we would share this sad story with you, Mr. Craitor." Signed, "Judith."

These letters, these voices, these people, give me and I think this House a real testimony to the problem that exists with grandparents' rights. I want to

remind you that Bill 8 is simply about the best interests of the child. I am truly convinced that with a little prodding and encouragement, the courts and social agencies can provide real

leadership in providing access to grandparents and love to their grandchildren.

I'm standing here simply to say to the House, to my colleagues, to my members, please support the reading of Bill 8. In doing so, this bill will continue and

will go to public hearings. I think that will really give the public the opportunity to know and understand the passion and the pain that grandparents are facing.

The Deputy Speaker: Further debate?

Ms. Andrea Horwath (Hamilton East): It's my pleasure to rise today to speak to Bill 8. I think everybody in this House would agree, including

the grandparents who are here today, that this bill is certainly about grandparents' rights but it's always about the best interests of our children.

Certainly in my life, and I know that's the case in many people's lives and many young people's lives, grandparents are very special people. They can be very

special people when it comes to the quality of life of children. I have fond memories of my grandparents. Unfortunately, I've lost most of them, but I still have a grandma who is in a home right

now. For the most part, all of my memories, going back to when I was a very young child, include my grandparents and the role they played in my life.

From my reading of it, this bill basically requires parents and others with custody of children to refrain from unreasonably placing obstacles between the

personal relationships of children and their grandparents. It amends a subsection of the Children's Law Reform Act to reference the importance of maintaining emotional ties between children and

grandparents, and it requires consistency always with the best interests of the child. I think that's a very important piece. There are other specifics around what the bill is about, but let's talk

about what grandparents are all about.

Who are grandparents? It's interesting to note the statistics on grandparents: 76% of people aged 65 and older are grandparents; 90% of those over 65 who have

children themselves are grandparents; 40% of Canadians whose grandparents are alive see them at least once a month; 36% of women between the ages of 45 and 54, 42% of women from 55 to 64 and 22% of

women 65 and older provide regular child care for their grandchildren. Maternal grandmothers were chosen by most grandchildren as their closest grandparent, followed by the paternal grandmother,

then by the maternal and paternal grandfathers as their closest relative. Children are choosing their grandparents, are self-identifying that their grandparents are their closest relatives.

It's not surprising that children would identify with their grandparents as being their closest relatives, because grandparents have a unique role in a child's

life. The parents are there day to day, dealing with the day-to-day stresses and the pressures of life within the family unit in all of its forms -- sometimes one parent, sometimes both parents

and, unfortunately, sometimes no parents. What grandparents do is provide this extra comfort zone, this extra place where children feel totally loved and totally supported. But it's not within the

context of their own day-to-day family life; it's within the context of this broader kinship with grandparents.

Grandparents not only provide that safety zone, that place of love and warmth and total acceptance, but they also have a unique role in educating or raising

awareness of family history in children. Grandparents are in the unique position to not only discuss with children cultural and ethnic values and traditions, but also the basic family history. Many

times my grandmother told me stories about her mother and her grandmother or her father and her grandfather, so I got a sense of the history of my family as they lived in Ontario, even as they

emigrated from another country. I know some of the businesses that they were involved in. In fact, to this day I can go into a certain area of our downtown in Hamilton and identify with a

particular storefront where my family -- my great-great-grandparents and maybe my great-great-great-grandparents -- had a small business. They had the first soda fountain ever in the city of

Hamilton at the turn of the century. They were chocolatiers and they were quite famous for their provision of sweets to the community of Hamilton. But I wouldn't know that if it wasn't for my

grandmother having told me those stories, and my grandmother having collected a pictorial history of that point in time. I actually have some photos that date back quite some time ago, indicating

the businesses that my various family members were involved with. Also, you get a chance to hear about things like, "You have so-and-so's ears. You have so-and-so's eyes. Your great-uncle or your

great-great-aunt had the same personality as you have." These are all stories that continue to maintain the connection between children and their grandparents.

Grandparents also, as I mentioned at the very beginning, act in so many other ways as a support system for the rest of the family, but particularly for the

children. So when mom and dad are needing some time away, it's usually grandparents who are turned to. When children need or just want to have some time out of the regular family routine,

grandparents are relied upon for that. Grandparents often are in a role of providing some safe space for kids if things are getting tense around the house. I know I used to go to my grandparents

when my parents were doing their Christmas shopping, and of course it's getting to be around that time now.

The point is that there are so many different roles that grandparents play in a child's life. It's sometimes on a regular basis in terms of formal babysitting

and those kinds of arrangements, and sometimes it's an informal, spur-of-the-moment type of relationship. The problem, of course, arises when, unfortunately, for one reason or another, grandparents

are prevented from keeping those relationships or maintaining those relationships or are being prevented from even seeing their grandchildren. It's an issue that's of great and rising concern, not

only for grandparents but for grandchildren and for broader communities. The unfortunate reality is that sometimes decisions get made and as a result of those decisions, the grandparents are cut

out of that relationship and everybody suffers. The children suffer because they lose that connection and the grandparents suffer. I think the presenter of the bill did an excellent job in

describing some of those very difficult, unfortunate and frankly nasty situations that occur when grandparents are cut out of the situation when it comes to their grandchildren.

I have to say that when I initially looked at the bill, the first thing that came to mind was, well, gee, I certainly support grandparents and their rights,

but we have to make sure that it's in the best interests of children. When I read the bill, I was really pleased to see that that piece is in there, because just as we talk about children being

hurt in divorce situations and used as pawns and those kinds of things, we have to make sure that's not what is happening here. It certainly is my belief, anyway, from what I read, that the

intention of the bill is to make sure that children's best interests are kept at the forefront.

You know, it's interesting, because the government has another bill that is currently going through the process. It's Bill 210, a bill that basically looks at

crown wards and tries to figure out how to make sure more crown wards can be successfully adopted. There are a number of pieces in it. Interestingly enough, one of the pieces in that bill -- and I

brought a little primer about it here -- includes grandparents. It includes the idea that grandparents have a role to play when a child is taken into custody by the state. It's interesting, because

that role is identified in all stages of the process, so that when the necessity is identified for a child to be taken into the care of the state because of problems in their home life, it's a

requirement for agencies, for CASs, to identify who might be able to be involved in the care of that child, not only through the investigative process, but also should the decision be made that

they have to be removed from the home. I thought it was very interesting that grandparents are part of that kinship group that are going to be looked to under this new legislation once it gets

through the process and get passed. But again, in that bill, Bill 210, the interesting piece that I found as well is it's consistent with the thought that's in this bill, which is that it is always

thought to be with the best interests of the child or the children at heart. While we're making sure that we're doing the right thing by grandparents in regard to this bill, we're also making sure

that the motivation to do that is the motivation of our children, and to make sure that they have the opportunity to have those relationships and to have those valuable times with their

grandparents.

I thought I should raise that, because in some ways Bill 210 was a bit of an eye-opener, and the process likely of putting that together was something where

people began to acknowledge, at least in this place, that this is really valuable, really important, and that we should be trying to do as much as we can to make sure that grandparents are

acknowledged as an important part of children's lives in their own right within that relationship that exists. Regardless of what's happening in the actual parental zone, that grandparent zone is a

zone that we have to be able to support, and we have to be able to make sure that they have some decent rights of access to their grandchildren.

I guess there are a number of different ways that those relationships break down with parents, whether it's a difficulty between the parents of children and

their parents, whether it's a breakup of a marriage or a relationship, whether it's a death in the family or some of the other situations that the sponsor of the bill described in his remarks. But

the bottom line in each of those cases is there are things that we need to make sure we're doing in the process of taking on that responsibility of giving grandparents the opportunity to stay

connected with their grandchildren. Those things are very specific around making sure that there are no other issues out there that we need to be worried about. Again, I certainly don't want to

dwell on that, but when we're dealing with situations of family violence, when we're dealing with situations of women abuse, when we're dealing with situations of violence against children or child

abuse, we have to be extremely careful that the interests of the abused mother, for example, or the child are taken into consideration, because we wouldn't want to have a situation where we're

reducing the support that we're giving to abused women and removing their ability to pull their lives together and make a good home and good life for their children. If we're interfering in their

right or ability to do that, then I think we have to back away. That isn't to say that at some point in time those issues cannot be resolved, but when there's an initial concern about violence in

the household, then we really have to make sure that we're not doing anything to make it more difficult for a woman to be able to find a safe place and safe home for her and her children.

Having said that, again I do want to say that this bill is likely the beginning -- the thin edge of the wedge, if you want to call it that. It's an initial

start in trying to address some of these problems, some of these issues. I don't think it's the be-all and end-all in terms of where we need to go. Quite frankly, the person who brings the bill,

the sponsor of the bill, Mr. Craitor, is acknowledging that full out. But the point is, it's a start. Combined with some of the acknowledgement of grandparents in other legislation and with this

piece here today, with the acknowledgement and recognition that it's the best interests of our children that are at our heart -- I certainly know, for all of the grandparents that I have spoken to

and that I deal with and for my own grandparents, that's always their motivation: the best interests of the children. But we have to always ensure that that is our first level of responsibility,

our first level of acknowledgement of who it is that we're trying to do well for or do right by: the grandchildren. In so doing, in ensuring that they have those relationships with their

grandparents, we end up doing the right thing all the way around.

The Deputy Speaker: Further debate? The member for Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford.

Mr. Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased to --

Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I apologize to my colleague --

Mr. Tascona: My time's being used, Mr. Speaker.

The Deputy Speaker: Point of order?

Mr. Fonseca: The galleries are full today with a group from Wexford Public School. I just wanted to acknowledge them. Thank you.

The Deputy Speaker: That is not a point of order.

Mr. Tascona: He shouldn't be doing that when the clock starts, Mr. Speaker. I should have my time put back.

I'd just like to say that this is a serious issue that demands serious debate. It's unfortunate that the member from Niagara Falls had to come forth with what

I would say is a piecemeal approach to reforming the Family Law Act and the Children's Law Reform Act, which cries out for overhaul. It has been over 20 years since the Family Law Act was enacted,

and the Children's Law Reform Act needs to be changed based on the case law that's out there; it needs to be changed with respect to the changing nature of family relationships today. It's up to

the Attorney General and the Minister for Children and Youth Services to start to do something. We cannot have a member come forth here, a private member's all best intentions, on a very narrow

issue which deserves to be considered, to be left away from total reform of the Family Law Act and total reform of the Children's Law Reform Act.

I think I studied the initial Family Law Reform Act when I was in law school back at Queen's over 20 years ago. Nothing has changed; there have been no major

and significant amendments to this piece of legislation. It cries out for change because of what we're talking about here today.

Anyone who has practised family law knows that it's emotional. They know that it's litigious. They know that there are serious issues with respect to family

breakdown, serious issues with respect to the distribution of assets, serious issues with respect to the support of the family, and also the critical issues of custody and access of the parents or

the grandparents. That's something that has not been dealt with. We have case law that has been emerging, we have reality in terms of family relationships today, and yet we have nothing in terms of

major reform of the Family Law Reform Act and the Children's Law Reform Act.

I would put it out to the ministers today -- the Attorney General and the children and youth services minister -- to listen to their member in terms of

starting an approach. This is a narrow amendment to the Children's Law Reform Act. It's an important amendment, but the overhaul is necessary.

I want to refer to the Canadian Family Law Quarterly, volume 21, 2003. It's an

article by Martha Shaffer, entitled, "To Grandmother's House We Go? An

Examination of Grandparent Access." In this particular article, she looks at a number of general trends and principles in Canadian case law:

"An examination of the case law on grandparent access gives rise to four general observations. First, despite the widely held belief that grandparent access is

a problem of divorce, many of the litigated grandparent access cases were not precipitated by marriage breakdown....

"Second, two main approaches to grandparent claims are discernible in the case law. Not surprisingly, these approaches mirror the two competing background

assumptions that can inform the best interests standard in grandparent access cases. The dominant approach embraces as its background norm the assumption that contact with grandparents is generally

in the child's best interests." It's called the pro-contact approach.

There is a minority view, an opposing view, the parental autonomy approach, which "recently received a forceful endorsement by the Ontario Court of Appeal in

the case of Chapman v. Chapman. Despite initial predictions that Chapman, as an appellate decision, would change the pro-contact orientation of Canadian courts, courts continue to make grandparent

access orders in a large number of cases. Even more significantly, the `pro-contact' strand of analysis remains strong in the post-Chapman case law.

"Third, as a result of this pro-contact orientation, courts tend to order access to grandparents unless the parents have what the courts view as good reasons

for ending the relationship....

"Finally, where grandparents succeed in obtaining access, courts are careful to confine its scope. Typically, courts grant access one weekend day every three

to six weeks for a period of several hours."

So the leading decision with respect to grandparent access is the case of Chapman versus Chapman, which supports the parental autonomy approach. I'll just read

you some facts of this case:

"Larry and Monica Chapman, not Esther Chapman, are responsible for the welfare of the children. They alone have this legal duty. Esther Chapman, as a

grandparent, loves her grandchildren and, understandably, wants to maintain contact with them. Nonetheless, the right to decide the extent and nature of the contact is not hers, and neither she nor

a court should be permitted to impose their perception of the children's best interests in circumstances such as these where the parents are so demonstrably attentive to the needs of their

children. The parents have, for the moment, decided that those needs do not include lengthy, frequent visits with their grandmother. Although the parents' conflict with Esther Chapman is

unfortunate, there is no evidence that this parental decision is currently detrimental to the children. It should therefore be respected by the court and the children's best interests left in the

exclusive care of their parents."

Martha Shaffer goes on to conclude in her article, "I conclude by arguing that the case law on grandparent access offers important insights for future

development of the law, either by the judiciary or at the level of legislative reform. The case law establishes that parents often deny access or seek to restrict it for legitimate reasons. Where

family relations have reached the point that grandparents are prepared to go to court to force access and parents are prepared to go to court to prevent it, access may not be in the best interests

of the child. For these reasons, courts should be cautious to ensure that they do not make access orders too readily. Legislatures should refrain from creating statutory presumptions of grandparent

access, as these provisions are likely to do more harm than good in repairing fractured family relationships."

That's an

article that was presented in the Canadian Family Law Quarterly in 2003, after the Chapman versus Chapman decision in the Ontario Court of Appeal.

What the member is trying to accomplish here is no doubt a presumption in favour of grandparent access over the approach of parental autonomy, which the courts currently support.

It's a very short bill, and the provisions are very pointed. Subsection 1(2.1) says that parents and others with custody of children are to refrain from

unreasonably placing obstacles to personal relationships between the children and their grandparents. That sounds nice, but I'll speak as a lawyer: Looking at that, what's the remedy for the

grandparent, and what is the impact on the family relationship in a situation where the parents do not want access for the grandparents to their child? That's what the author was talking about. Is

that in the best interests of the child to go into a litigious situation, in terms of examining the relationship with the child? I have to speak frankly: I don't think it's in the best interests to

have child access and custody be a litigious matter 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It's not in the best interests of the child.

The other part of it is subsections 2(2.1) and (2.2), where, in this approach, the court is to look with respect to the best interests of the child. That is

the law; that is the way it is. But I think the member from Niagara Falls is correct: We need hearings on this matter because we're going to hear some different sides. We need to hear from the

legal experts and we need to hear some family law experts in terms of dealing with family relationships.

I commend the member for bringing forth this particular piece of legislation, but I also look at the government to say: Get on with it. Let's start looking at

major changes, significant changes, to the Family Law Act and Children's Law Reform Act. I don't want to hear from the other side, coming back and saying, "Why didn't you do it?" We're here today

to try to deal with something. The member from Niagara Falls --

Interjection.

Mr. Tascona: I don't want to hear from the member from North Bay, because she has nothing to say on this.

I want to say something: We're dealing with a particular piece of legislation that is a piecemeal reform in terms of a situation where it requires a major

overhaul of the Family Law Act and the Children's Law Reform Act because the case law begs it and the relationships today in 2005 require it.

Those are the comments I have to make. I look forward to public hearings on this particular piece of legislation. Unfortunately, because it was brought by a

private member, the chances of this going forth probably aren't very good, but if we can get the Minister of Children and Youth Services and the Attorney General to start looking at major reform in

these areas, we might see something happen.

Mr. Brad Duguid (Scarborough Centre): I'm very pleased to get up today to support the member for Niagara Falls', Kim Craitor's, Bill 8, a bill

that emphasizes the importance of children's relationships with their parents and grandparents and requires parents with custody of children to not place obstacles or get in the way of the

potential relationship between a young person and their grandparents.

Why is this important? Well, the relationship or bond between a child and a grandparent can be invaluable in the development of that child. It's not

irreplaceable -- there are a number of young people who grow up without seeing their grandparents -- but it can certainly be an invaluable contribution to the development of that person.

I know Mr. Craitor feels passionately about this, and he shared with us a number of stories that people have exchanged with him. It was very touching, hearing

a lot of those stories. But I thought, upon hearing Mr. Craitor's passion for this, that he must be a grandparent himself, having experienced that bond with a grandchild, although he looks far too

young to be a grandfather, of course. I asked him -- he's my seatmate -- the other day, "Are you a grandparent already?" And he said no. But his comments led me to believe that he's a wannabe

grandparent. I'm hoping he sends this Hansard to his daughter Colleen and his son Chris, because he told me that he really wants them to get on with it so that he can experience that great bond

with grandchildren. I know his wife, Helen, probably feels the same.

You make sure you send that to your young people. I'm doing my bit to help you out.

Mr. Craitor also shared with us a lot of empirical evidence of the importance, in terms of child development, of that relationship between a grandparent and

grandchild. A lot of it leads to self-esteem. The empirical evidence suggests -- in fact, probably proves -- that having a grandparent actively involved in the life of a child really does boost a

young person's self-esteem. When we look at some of the problems going on in our urban areas, and particularly here in the Toronto area over the last little while, if there were ways we could

expand the impact of grandparents and that grandparent relationship with some of the young people who are experiencing problems, I can't help but think that perhaps we could have prevented some of

the problems we're experiencing today with a very small portion of our young people, but a portion that's having a very significant impact in our communities. I can't help but think that that

higher level of self-esteem that a grandparent brings -- because it's unconditional love, quite often, that a grandparent brings to a child. It's that pressure-free love that I think really gives a

young person that feeling of confidence to go on and do whatever it is they want to do with their lives.

I can tell you today that it's not only empirical evidence but personal experience of the relationships that I was privileged to have with my grandparents. I

had a grandmother who had six kids that she had to bring up in pretty much abject poverty, both in the Ottawa and Toronto areas. I remember the relationship I had with her. I remember seeing her

trying to read the paper day in and day out. She was Ukrainian and she would spend hours trying to read the paper. It led me to believe how important literacy is, because she would read that paper

day in and day out, but she could barely get through it.

I remember my grandparents on my father's side. My grandmother was an immigrant from Ireland, and my grandfather -- his father had come over from Scotland. I

remember the things they taught me, the value of standing up for yourself, the value of being kind to others, the value -- and I'll never forget this. There was a school group here from Wexford

Public School that I spoke with earlier. I told them that when I was a kid, I was shy, and it wasn't until my grandfather told me --

Mr. Bob Delaney (Mississauga West): You were shy?

Mr. Duguid: I was really shy; a very shy kid. I really was. My grandfather told me that when he was younger, he was shy too. My father told me

he was shy when he was younger. My grandfather said, "If there was anything I could change about myself, it would be that I wouldn't be shy." I said, "Well, my grandfathers were shy. My father was

shy. I can't follow in those footsteps. I've got to change," and so I drove myself to be much more outgoing. Lo and behold, here I am speaking to a bunch of people in the Legislature, which I think

my grandfather probably would have been terrified to do. But it just goes to show that that relationship with your grandparents can change a child's life, can have a big impact on where they go in

the future.

Mr. Craitor, I thank you for bringing this forward on behalf of all of us.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman (Oxford): I rise to speak to the bill,

An Act to amend the Children's Law Reform Act, put forward by Mr. Craitor.

The member was just speaking about not being a grandparent yet, but in fact I became a grandparent twice this past summer for the first time. I also want to go

on and say that I have not seen my grandparents since I was six years old. It was because our family moved to a different country and the grandparents obviously didn't. So it's a very important

thing to me, but I guess I'm the effects of not having grandparents as opposed to the effects of having grandparents.

Again, speaking to the issue of being shy, I have also been trying to avoid following in my father's footsteps. I have 14 brothers and sisters. I'm trying to

avoid that, and I only have four children.

I want to say that I do support the bill. I think what the bill is trying to do is ask the courts to give effect to the principle that the child's interest is

foremost, both in whom the custodial parent should be and the access for grandparents. I think it's very important. The key words are "in the best interests of the child." We have to guarantee that

decisions made are in fact in the best interests of the child.

Again, it's not that I want to be negative to the bill, but I want to read a

section of a letter I received from a parent who wants us to understand a

different side of the situation. She starts out by saying that she and her husband are a loving, committed couple who have been married for seven years and have two children aged three and five.

She also says that dealing with her husband's parents has been an ongoing battle throughout their courtship and marriage. Christmas of 2003 was the last time they saw his parents. She wrote, "The

visit didn't go well from the beginning. My father-in-law was very disrespectful toward my husband. He was demeaning and rude. My daughter was three at the time and that was an impressionable age

-- old enough to see and hear the tension and the anger, old enough to see the way her grandparents treat her father and mother. My children never willingly kiss or hug or interact with their

paternal grandparents. Everything is forced. When we left their house, my mother-in-law threatened to take away all of her presents if she did not kiss her grandfather. This is what they do --

threaten to get their way."

Well, without reading the whole letter, it came down to the daughter-in-law letting her husband's parents know that they wanted to be treated with respect.

Instead of sitting down and talking to each other, her in-laws went to court and filed papers to gain access to the children; this started an eight-month court battle. The battle was a bitter one.

The grandparents eventually dropped the case but continue to threaten to go back to court when they want to get their way.

In her letter, the mother states, "From what I have read about Bill 8, it seems like it is just for situations like a divorce or a death of a parent, but it

still concerns me. It concerns me that one day my in-laws may have a chance to gain access to my children. They have told us more than once that they would take us back to court, and if this bill

gets passed, I have no doubt that they will. The part that worries me the most is, `A person who has custody of a child shall not unreasonably place obstacles to personal relations between the

child and the child's grandparents.'"

The mother states that the grandparents and extended families do not have the right to be part of children's lives; it is a privilege. I have to agree with her

point. In fact, in Oxford they offer a unique program that is aimed at helping guide grandparents in their role as new grandparents. The program, entitled the Joy of Grandparenting, is being

offered by the Oxford County Board of Health to teach grandparents to be grandparents. The two-hour session explores a number of interesting issues. They say -- and I have to admit being guilty of

this myself -- that grandparents often can't stop giving advice. It was also mentioned that it's hard to let go. We sometimes forget there is a lot of value in a support role and just loving your

grandchildren unconditionally is a great opportunity.

Thank you very much for this opportunity, and I want to say that I don't know what I would do if the courts said that I would no longer have visiting rights to

the two grandchildren I presently have.

Mr. Delaney: It's a real pleasure to stand in support of Bill 8, put forth by my seatmate and good friend the member for Niagara Falls, with

whom I've been joined at the elbow since my election.

Today's grandparents are strong and healthy people. Today's grandparents look more like their parents did a generation or two ago than their grandparents of

the post-war era. Our lifespans are longer. Today we look at the decade of our 60s and beyond with anticipation, and we don't look upon them as our declining years. That brings us to Bill 8,

An Act

to amend the Children's Law Reform Act. Bill 8 is very simple. Bill 8 merely requires the courts not to dismiss an application by a willing grandparent to assume custody or to retain access to a

child when doing so is in the best interests of the child.

Bill 8 deals with cases that many of us would rather not spend too much time thinking about: the breakup of a marriage, conflict within a family, the death or

disability of one or both parents. Bill 8 deals with these often tragic cases where the courts need to make a decision on who will assume custody of a child. Bill 8 asks, when a court needs to

consider the best interests of a child or children, that willing grandparents not be denied custody of the children, nor be denied reasonable access to them.

Bill 8 asks courts to consider the interests of the grandparents who are willing and able to assume custody of their grandchildren should tragedy strike their

children's family. Let's look at why that would be a good idea. Our government is in the process of ending mandatory retirement. We recognize that we have a shortage of people in their

child-rearing years. If we can't find them on the job, then how do we expect to find them in family settings to be foster parents or guardians? While Ontario looks to immigration to fill our ranks

in the trades and professions, it also encourages people in their prime career years to work, if they choose to. So let us extend that same philosophy to custody of children. These days, grandma

and grandpa are as likely to be a working couple as are mom and dad. Moreover, when it comes to raising a child, grandma and grandpa have done the job of child-rearing; not only have they done it,

but they have the maturity and perspective of experience and age to enable them to enjoy child-rearing in their mature years in a way they may not have been able to a generation earlier.

As a personal example, a number of years ago, when I lived on Trondheim Crescent in Meadowvale in northern Mississauga, our street had a large number of young

children, all about the same age. For a few years I went with the kids to Canada's Wonderland, taught them hide and seek, played ball hockey, went to birthday parties and generally served as a big

brother to all of our street's kids. I found the experience to be unexpectedly wonderful. I got to see my own teenage years in a whole new way and I lived them a second time around when I played

with the kids, who today are all young adults.

Let it be the same with grandparent access to children. Our grandparents have the willingness, the energy, the health and the capacity to share time with their

grandchildren, and when necessary to substitute for the parents of the child, to assume custody and to raise the grandchildren in a caring and loving environment.

Bill 8 says to the courts that they may not dismiss the rights and willingness of grandchildren in child custody or access cases. If courts must be blind to

religion, to ethnic origin and to gender in considering the well-being of a child, let courts be similarly blind in their consideration of the age of a grandparent who is willing and able to raise

grandchildren as their own.

I think this is a good bill. I'm supporting it. I encourage all members to support it. I think this adds to our Ontario fabric the type of fairness we're

bringing to the workplace and the type of attitude we expect in schools. I think this is a bill we're going to look back on and be proud of in years hence.

Mrs. Linda Jeffrey (Brampton Centre): I'm pleased to speak in support of Bill 8, raised by my colleague the MPP for Niagara Falls. We all know

that children need stability, that children need feelings of self-worth, and that it's vital to help children form meaningful, long-term relationships. I'm going to use my short time here this

morning to talk about a meaningful relationship that occurred in my life, and about grandparents who affected my life and those of my children. I wish to recognize the role my grandparents, Rose

and Frank Gray, played not only in my upbringing but in that of one of my children.

Nineteen years ago I gave birth to a son who was special needs. I know grandparents always want to check that they have children with 10 fingers and 10 toes,

but sometimes children come in different kinds of packages. I had grandparents who saw a child who was special needs at the time, but I had a grandmother who didn't believe he was special needs.

She would never accept that and believed in him having untapped potential that no one else could see. She was a wonderful person who listened when I needed to talk, held her tongue when she

probably should have stepped in and said something to me, and was a wonderful sounding board and a steadying influence in my life and my son's. They loved unconditionally, and I think that's the

most special thing about grandparents. They listened when I needed to talk. I guess they were the best encouragement I could find in my life and in my son's life.

Without the strong support, children, youth, are vulnerable to other risks. We know that they can make wrong decisions without grandparents as a steadying

influence. They are a valuable resource, an untapped resource, and I support maintaining the ties between children and their grandparents. I support Bill 8.

Ms. Monique M. Smith (Nipissing): I would like to thank my colleagues for allowing me to share the time this morning. I would like to

congratulate the member for Oxford on becoming a grandpa, because it is such an important time in his life and such a great relationship. I also want to congratulate the member for Niagara Falls

for bringing this forward today. It is an important discussion to have, and I support him in this legislation and in ensuring that grandparents have a role in their grandchildren's lives.

I know that the member for Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford didn't want to acknowledge that in eight years his government took no action, but I will acknowledge that

they didn't. I also note that the member for Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford, speaking as a lawyer, had some concern about this legislation. I too am a lawyer. I noted that in the drafting of this

legislation we did reference, on a number of occasions, "the best interests of the child," and of course that is fundamental to family law and to custody issues and to access issues. Again, the

member for Niagara Falls has taken great care to ensure that the best interests of the child are foremost in this piece of legislation.

I want to take just a brief moment to speak about some great grandparent relationships that I had in my life. My grandfather, Cyril P. Smith, was a pharmacist

in North Bay. He was the only grandparent I knew. My other three grandparents had passed away before I was born. He was in his 80s when I was conscious of him. He was a vital, active senior who

took great interest in his grandchildren. We had the privilege and fortune of growing up two blocks away so we would always head down to Papa's house with our report cards and were given treats

because we did well. He provided a great deal of support and nurturing to me and my three brothers. We were the last generation of grandchildren for him, as my cousins were quite a bit older. But

he never spared a moment of time or energy or interest in our lives. He was always there to hear our stories and to be supportive.

My mom has recently become a grandma and was very delighted. As Mr. Duguid pointed out, there was much pressure put to bear on becoming a grandparent, and now

she has two granddaughters. She's an active grandma who will jump on a plane at the drop of a hat to look after those grand-girls, and is having a delightful time with them. I see that bond and the

importance of that relationship, and actually can't even fathom putting a halt to that relationship, to the joy that the girls bring to Grandmama and to the extent that Grandmama has an impact and

contributes to their lives. I think it really is an important familial relationship that we cannot underplay.

I want to congratulate the member for Niagara for bringing this forward, for recognizing the importance that grandparents play in so many lives. In my work in

long-term care, I see homes where they're providing a play area for the children so that those grandchildren can visit their grandparents, and that's so important.

I want to commend the member for Niagara Falls. I support Bill 8, and I want to thank the other members for their great comments today.

The Deputy Speaker: Mr. Craitor, you have two minutes to reply.

Mr. Craitor: First, I want to thank all the members who have spoken on this bill: the members from Mississauga West, Scarborough Centre,

Brampton Centre, Hamilton East, Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford, Durham and Nipissing. It's quite interesting listening to their remarks in support of the bill, but also to the stories they share about

their grandparents and the influence that those grandparents had on their lives.

I often say to my friends back home that I'm pretty lucky to be a provincial member of Parliament. I think we all are. I take it seriously, like everyone else

in this House. But I guess today is one of those days that you're pretty proud -- even more so, I'm pretty proud of all of the grandparents who have gone out of their way to be here today. I'm

proud of all of the organizations that have helped me along the way. I thank all of the people who shared their personal stories with me, probably stories that they may not share with other people

but they realize it's an important bill. By sharing it with me they probably helped to motivate me even further than what I might have done to take this bill forward.

It is a modest bill, but when you hear the stories and the situations, it's a bill about people's lives; it's a bill about their grandchildren. Today, it is

one step forward. I heard some comments about, "It's a private member's bill," and, "What are the chances?" I never think that way. I'm a very positive person. I've supported some of my colleagues

in opposition on some of their bills because I think they're great bills, and I'm prepared to go forward as far as I can to make them a success. I think that's what will happen with this bill.

I thank everyone for their comments and look forward to the passing of this bill, and will go forward with it.

The Deputy Speaker: Thank you to all members. The time provided for private members' public business has expired.

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT

(COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT), 2005 /

LOI DE 2005

MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ÉDUCATION

(PARTICIPATION COMMUNAUTAIRE)

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): We shall deal first with ballot item number 9.

Mr. Fonseca has moved second reading of Bill 19.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour, say "aye."

All those opposed, say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

We will call in the members after we've dealt with the next item. We will now deal with ballot item number 10.

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM

AMENDMENT ACT, 2005 /

LOI DE 2005 MODIFIANT LA LOI

PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT

DE L'ENFANCE

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Mr. Craitor has moved second reading of Bill 8.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour, say "aye."

All those opposed, say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

We will vote on this one as well. Call in the members. I remind you, it's a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1201 to 1206.

The Deputy Speaker: Order. Members take their seats, please. Mr. Kormos, you have to take your seat. Is Mr. Kormos in the House? Then Mr.

Kormos must take his seat.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: It's my understanding that the member for Niagara Centre is in the House. I'm warning the member for Niagara Centre that I

will name him if he does not take his seat.

I'm naming the member for Niagara Centre.

Mr. Kormos was escorted from the chamber.

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT

(COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT), 2005 /

LOI DE 2005

MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ÉDUCATION

(PARTICIPATION COMMUNAUTAIRE)

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Mr. Fonseca has moved second reading of Bill 19. All those in favour will please stand.

Ayes

Arnott, Ted

Arthurs, Wayne

Baird, John R.

Bisson, Gilles

Bradley, James J.

Brownell, Jim

Bryant, Michael

Craitor, Kim

Delaney, Bob

Duguid, Brad

Flynn, Kevin Daniel

Fonseca, Peter

Gerretsen, John

Hardeman, Ernie

Hoy, Pat

Jeffrey, Linda

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Leal, Jeff

Levac, Dave

Mauro, Bill

McMeekin, Ted

McNeely, Phil

Mitchell, Carol

Mossop, Jennifer F.

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Prue, Michael

Qaadri, Shafiq

Racco, Mario G.

Ruprecht, Tony

Scott, Laurie

Smith, Monique

Tascona, Joseph N.

Yakabuski, John

Zimmer, David

The Clerk of the Assembly (Mr. Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 34; the nays are 0.

The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Pursuant to standing order 96, this bill is --

Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East): Mr Speaker, I ask that the bill be sent to the standing committee on social policy.

The Deputy Speaker: Mr. Fonseca has asked unanimous consent that the bill be sent to the standing committee on social policy. Agreed? No.

All those in favour will please stand. The majority is in favour. It will be sent to the standing committee on social policy.

The doors will now be opened for 30 seconds before the next vote.

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM

AMENDMENT ACT, 2005 /

LOI DE 2005 MODIFIANT LA LOI

PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT

DE L'ENFANCE

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Mr. Craitor has moved second reading of Bill 8. All those in favour will please stand.

Ayes

Arnott, Ted

Arthurs, Wayne

Baird, John R.

Bisson, Gilles

Bradley, James J.

Brownell, Jim

Bryant, Michael

Craitor, Kim

Delaney, Bob

Duguid, Brad

Flynn, Kevin Daniel

Fonseca, Peter

Gerretsen, John

Hardeman, Ernie

Horwath, Andrea

Hoy, Pat

Jeffrey, Linda

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Leal, Jeff

Levac, Dave

Matthews, Deborah

Mauro, Bill

McMeekin, Ted

McNeely, Phil

Mitchell, Carol

Mossop, Jennifer F.

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Prue, Michael

Qaadri, Shafiq

Racco, Mario G.

Ruprecht, Tony

Scott, Laurie

Smith, Monique

Tascona, Joseph N.

Van Bommel, Maria

Zimmer, David

The Clerk of the Assembly (Mr. Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 36; the nays are 0.

The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Pursuant to standing order --

Mr. Kim Craitor (Niagara Falls): I'm pleased to refer the bill to the standing committee on social policy.

The Deputy Speaker: Mr. Craitor has asked unanimous consent that the bill be sent to the standing committee on social policy. Agreed?

Agreed.

All matters relating to private members' public business having been dealt with, this House will adjourn until 1:30 of the clock.

The House recessed from 1214 to 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

PROPERTY TAXATION

Mr. Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): Each year, our farmers in Ontario rely on 14,000 migrant workers -- excellent workers from

countries like Jamaica and Mexico -- as well as local seasonal help to plant and harvest crops. This requires lodging -- bunkhouses -- to provide a home away from home. Now the McGuinty government

has ruled that bunkhouses should be taxed at the same rate as residential properties, and MPAC has just confirmed this.

For years, farm-worker bunkhouses have been taxed like other farm buildings. I lived in one 30 years ago when I primed tobacco. Taxes, rightfully so, have been

based on the assessed value of the bunkhouse multiplied by one quarter of the residential rate. Typically, in my riding that's $100 a year in taxes. With this week's ruling it quadruples to

$400.

Assessment complaints to date, as we all know, have launched an investigation of MPAC by Ontario's Ombudsman.

Only a government that doesn't understand or care about the plight of our fruit and vegetable or tobacco farmers and our farm economies would permit this to

happen. Assessment tax hikes are the last straw for farmers already struggling with weather, low commodity prices, loss of markets and skyrocketing energy and other input costs. First maple syrup,

then trailer parks, then horse farms, now --

The Speaker (Hon. Michael A. Brown): Thank you.

HIGHWAY 101

Mr. Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): Members may know that we've had a couple of tragic accidents on Highway 101 through the city of Timmons

over the last month or so. We've now had a couple of fatalities, where people were involved in accidents from transport trucks coming through the community, specifically from the lumber

industry.

You will know, Minister of Transportation, that earlier this week articles appeared in a local paper calling on the provincial government and the municipality

to look at finally fixing what is called a perimeter road passage around the city of Timmins. You would also know that the perimeter road was started some time ago. A second river crossing on the

Mattagami River was part of that initiative. There is also the initiative that connected Shirley Street with Airport Road, which is part of the second phase of the project. The city, at one point,

is going to be coming before this Minister of Transportation asking for the rest of the money necessary to finish the perimeter road from one end of Highway 101 to the other side of South

Porcupine.

I want to lend my support to that, because I think in the end we need to take a look at how to reduce truck traffic on Highway 101 cutting through the city of

Timmins, so that we can make it safer for both the motoring public and those who walk along Algonquin Boulevard. I expect to see something from the city of Timmins soon.

CHINESE BUSINESS COMMUNITY

Mr. Mario G. Racco (Thornhill): I wish to report on my recent trip to China. I was invited by the Chinese government. While in China, I was

pleased to hear of the Chinese business community's satisfaction with the economic investment climate in Ontario. They were pleased to hear that the McGuinty government is committed to publicly

funded services such as health care and education. They also praised the billions of additional dollars the McGuinty government has added to these publicly funded services since assuming office,

and how this investment has ensured continued strength and growth in Ontario's economic performance.

The members of the Chinese business community were especially impressed by the McGuinty government's ability to manage the province's finances by having a

deficit even lower than was originally forecast.

I came away from China with an understanding that the Chinese business community places great importance on investment in people. They told me that the

government of Ontario is on the right track by focusing on people, because people are the key to attracting investment. I believe we are on the right path to a prosperous future because we

recognize people as the province's most valuable resource.

I invite all the honourable members of this House to visit China whenever they decide to go outside of Ontario. Not only is it a beautiful nation to visit but

it's also where the future of economic prosperity in the world is going to be.

LAYOFFS

Ms. Laurie Scott (Haliburton-Victoria-Brock): The recent announcement of the General Motors job losses in Oshawa will have an impact on the

economy of the local community. It will affect not only those who will lose their jobs but also those who are involved in the related parts and service industries.

These cuts will affect an area much wider than Oshawa and Durham regions. General Motors is the largest employer of the people in my riding of

Haliburton-Victoria-Brock. Job losses, whether through layoffs or attrition, will have an impact throughout my riding and other surrounding areas. The Premier has called this loss of jobs a

"contraction," but locally the impact is more than just numbers; it is going to affect people's lives. These job losses will have an impact on local businesses that have depended on General Motors

as a customer. It will also impact on those businesses that have depended on General Motors employees as their customers.

Many businesses in my riding have been having a hard time coping with fewer customers because of the agricultural crisis that has hit our farming families.

Farmers have not had money to spend in local stores. They've barely had money to make ends meet in a lot of cases. Now, with the announced closures by General Motors, these businesses will also

lose many of these people as customers. Combine that with increased costs like electricity and it puts many of these businesses in danger of failing.

The McGuinty Liberals on the other side of this House need to understand that everything is interconnected and those economic contractions are more than just

numbers. Every job loss is more than a number. Job losses affect people, their families and their communities.

CHRISTOPHER BART

Ms. Judy Marsales (Hamilton West): On November 16, I had the pleasure of attending the 2005 Outstanding Business Achievement Awards hosted by

the Ontario Chamber of Commerce. As the past president of the Hamilton Chamber of Commerce, I was pleased to join the Hamilton team and current president, Brian Wilson, to attend the awards.

I'd like to take this time to recognize one of the proud winners of the evening, an esteemed academic and the husband of Judy Rosen, one of my colleagues, Dr.

Christopher Bart of McMaster University, who took home the corporate governance award for his work in establishing an innovative new program at McMaster's Directors College.

The college offers a comprehensive professional development certification program for corporate directors. Dr. Bart is the founder, principal and lead

professor of Canada's first and only university-accredited program created specifically for the development and training of corporate directors. His goal is to increase awareness of the need for

the certification and professionalization of corporate directors. Dr. Bart created this institution after dedicating his entire career to the study of corporate governance. His innovative ideas,

combined with his dedication and hard work, led to his success.

I'd like to take this time to congratulate Dr. Bart, McMaster University and the DeGroote School of Business on the receipt of this well-deserved award.

MINISTER OF EDUCATION

Mr. Frank Klees (Oak Ridges): The Minister of Education continues his campaign of political spin over substance. On November 1 and 2, the

minister was asked to provide specific information to the standing committee on estimates relating to the number of suspensions, expulsions and exclusions which took place under the authority of

the Education Act and the Safe Schools Act. He was asked those questions because he had repeatedly refused to acknowledge to parents who appealed to his office that indeed a serious problem exists

in some schools where special-needs students are being expelled from school. They and their parents are left with no resources or supports and they have nowhere to turn for help. Essentially, the

education system is failing these children and their families.

Even under direct questioning on this issue during committee hearings, the minister either could not or would not acknowledge that a problem exists. That was

the reason for my specific questions and the request to have answers tabled with the committee. By refusing to provide specific information directly to the standing committee on estimates as

requested and choosing instead to spin the information out through a press conference yesterday, this minister has not only demonstrated a lack of respect for members of that committee, but I

submit that in every practical sense he is in contempt of Parliament.

I call on the minister to stop this practice of political spinning and to take his responsibility seriously. Be willing to get informed and have the courage to

demand accountability in your ministry and in school boards across this province.

SAULT AREA HOSPITAL

Mr. David Orazietti (Sault Ste. Marie): I would like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation on behalf of the citizens of Sault

Ste. Marie to Premier McGuinty and Ministers Smitherman and Caplan for their support of a new state-of-the-art hospital in Sault Ste. Marie. After years of previous governments' foot-dragging on

the Sault Area Hospital project, we are finally moving forward through our $30-billion ReNew Ontario infrastructure program.

On August 18, 2005, Premier McGuinty was in Sault Ste. Marie, on the site of the approved hospital, to announce that our government would provide 70% of the

construction costs for the new facility, including a much-needed radiation therapy bunker. The Sault Area Hospital will contain 289 beds, the same number as the two current hospitals combined, with

improved space for emergency, surgery and mental health services. The total square footage for the department space is 34% more than both existing hospitals combined. This is great news for the

residents of Sault Ste. Marie and area, and I know our local communities are excited about this project.

While the NDP and a few special interest groups spread fear and mislead Ontarians about the AFP process, claiming hospitals will be privately owned, we know

this is not true. Capital projects completed on our watch will be publicly owned, publicly controlled and publicly accountable. They will not be Conservative P3s, which allowed for private

ownership.

The record is clear. The NDP spent their time cutting the number of doctors in Ontario and ignoring decaying infrastructure, while the Conservatives attempted

to privatize the few hospitals they built. We are getting on with the real work at hand with a massive reinvestment in our hospitals, schools and transportation --

The Speaker (Hon. Michael A. Brown): Thank you.

TELEPERFORMANCE CANADA

Mr. Jim Brownell (Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh): The member for Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Grey has made much of the numerous job losses

experienced by the city of Cornwall in my riding of Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh. In light of his comments and the negative publicity