Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 63 (32nd Legislature, 4th Session)

32-4-63

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 5 June, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MA. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MA. P. EYLEA: Mr. Speak er, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for Ste. Rose, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION pre ae nted end carried. MA.

SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. A. MACKLING introduced, by leave, Bill No. 50,

An Act to amend The Payment of Wages Act and Other Acts of the Legislature; Bill No. 51,

An Act to amend The Pension Benefits Act; and Bill No. 52,

An Act to amend The Employment Standards Act. ORAL QUESTIONS Crimea, violent in Manitoba - increaH in MA. SPE AKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MA. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier. In view of the recent indication that there has been an alarming Increase in murders and sexual offences, as a matter of fact, 25 percent increase during this past year In Winnipeg, does the government have any plans for legislative changes or new programs that would halt this alarming increase In violent crimes and make our streets and neighbourhoods safe once again? MA.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the administration of criminal law· is, of course, a federal responsibility, but at the provincial level our greatest means that we can undertake in order to reduce violent crimes, murders, etc., is to reduce the extent of joblessness within the Province of Manitoba, which we are doing. MA. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker , in view of the fact that there are 20,000 more people unemployed today than when this NDP administration took office in 1981, obviously the Premier and his colleagues are not doing the job that they ought to be and they're not concerned with what they ought to be concerned. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that same report indicates that petty crimes and, in fact, overall crimes are declining, but violent crimes are increasing, has the government instituted any studies or investigation into this to see what can be done with respect to this?

For instance, is the Attorney-General's Department recommending stiffer sentences or anything to the judiciary to try and combat this? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, I'll take that question as notice on behalf of the Attorney-General as to whether there have been any studies or not. MA. G.

FILMON: In view of the fact that, again, the study indicates that one of the areas In which there is the least success In finding the guilty parties is In the "smash and grab" areas in which stereos and expensive equipment are being taken out of automobiles and out of homes and there's a very low incidence of solving of those crimes, is the government investigating methods by which they could encourage greater identification of these goods and trace the goods on a better basis, so that we can solve more of these crimes in an attempt to put a halt to this alarming increase? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, certainly we share the concerns raised by the Leader of the Opposition and they are indeed problems faced right across Canada, from one part of Canada to the other. Police forces, courts, the judiciary, the various departments of the Attorney-General, the Ministry of Justice In Ottawa are all doing what they can in order to ensure that the extent of such crimes do reduce.

I want to though, again, emphasize to the Leader of the Opposition that what is fundamentally important in dealing with problems such as what we are faced with, by way of Incidence of crime, is to contend with economic problems; the joblessness that exists throughout Canadian society, some 1.4 million to 1.5 million Canadians throughout; the social problems that arise as a result of joblessness within our society, so that the matter that the Leader of the Opposition - and I commend the Leader of the Opposition for raising the matter - it is one that is complex, one that requires the concerted effort of all levels of government, community organizations at every level, all segments and sections of the police and the judiciary, and the various departments of the Attorney-General, to contend with, and overall, Mr.

Speaker, to ensure that there is a strategy of economic approach In order to reduce the seeds that give rise to the increase In crimes in our midst of all types. MA. G. FILMON: Is the Premier then indicating to us that the reason we are experiencing this dramatic 2663

w..tne8day, 5 June, 1985 increase in violent crimes is because of the failure of his administration to deal with the economic problems of our province, and because of their failure to deal with the unemployment in this province that they said they would deal with when they ran for government in 19 81. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. If the honour able member wishes to ob tain information, would he kindly ask for it and not ask argumentative questions. The Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I expect that there isn't an answer from the Premier on that matter, in any case, so I'll turn my question to the Minister of Education. Mr. Speak er, my . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I do this by pointing out there are . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister on a ROint of order? HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . rules that you are certainly doing your utmost to contend with, but I'm wondering, Mr. Speaker, if I could have leave to respond to the statement by the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Does the Honourable First Minister have a point of order? HON. H. PAWLEY: My point of order, Mr. Speaker, is that the leader of the Opposition issued a statement. 1t was not a question. Do I have the right to respond to the statement that the leader of the Opposition made? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That was not a point of order. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition's so-called question was ruled out of order. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in that case I have a question for the Minister of Education.

In 19 81, when the Minister was running for election, she expressed a great deal of concern about . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in 19 81, when the Minister was . . . A MEMBER: Is that a question or a statement? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. G. FILMON: . . . I believe I'm entitled to a

preamble to the question, a brief

preamble. I Intend to do nothing more than that. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Try a cheap shot like you did before. A MEMBER: You're the cheap shot in this House. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. SPeaker, the Minister of Finance is the expert on cheap shots in this House. He utilizes it at every opportunity and he can't seem to take it when he's on the other end of it. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. If the Honourable Leader of the Opp osition has a question, would he pose it? MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, if the members on the other side will allow me to phrase the question, I'll be glad to ask it. PCB Contamination - Western Scrap Metal Yard MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I'm quite prepared to wait until the children on the other side have relaxed and come to order. Mr. Speaker , my question for the Min ister of Education. In 1981, when she was running for election, she expressed great concern abou� the dumping of PCB contaminated oil in Western Scrap Metal Yard in the Constituency of Logan.

I'm wondering, now that her colleague has refused to pursue further testing of the soil in that area, if she has satisfied herself as to whether or not the scho olchildr en in the Logan constituency area adjacent to that scrap yard are in any danger or risk of health. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure it's in order , but I'm ab solutely delig hted to have an opportunity to answer the question anyway. I wouldn't call 38 test sites no testing. I wouldn't call it no testing. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, I called a meeting with the residents of North Point Douglas to raise the issue of PCB contamination before it ever came to light and ever became public. We set up a committee of residents with the Department of the Environment and that group together decided what action would be taken, what tests - (Interjection) - Well, let me get to it -we decided where the tests would be done. They selected 38 test sites and we tested every site. We tested the air twice arid we tested the air In the locations that the residents wanted us to test. We killed 2664

Wedne8day, 5 June, 1985 some pigeons, Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry to say. I'm even sorrier to say that there were no PCBs in their little bodies but there was a home that had pigeons and birds do carry contamination. They're one of the earliest ways to identify. So, she offered up her pigeons and we tested the pigeons and there was no contamination there. What we found, Mr.

Speak er, is that out of the 38 sites some were slightly above the normal contamination or accepted levels on one site. lt was a site that was very heavily packed and the best information that we had agreed to by the residents - it was inside the Western Scrap Yard, not outside - was that the gravel should not be removed. In other words, the information was that it was safer to leave it untouched and not to remove it.

We called the City of Winnipeg and made sure they knew that there should be no approval for construction inside that site that would effectively remove or move that soil because it was best left alone. We went farther than that, Mr. Speaker . The other thing that we did is that we stopped the delivery - well, we did all this to protect the children - of batteries that carry PCBs into Western Scrap and we notified Hydro and everybody - (Interjection) - I'm almost finished, Mr. Speaker. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Mr. Speak er, in case the Minister forgot what the question was while she was rambling on to that extent, I'll repeat the question. Is she then satisfied that there is no health danger to the school children in that area and that the reports of the city and the concerns that are being raised to the people of the City of Winnipeg have absolutely no validity, that there is no danger to the health of the school children in the Logan area? Can she say that, unequivocally? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: I think we're always concerned, and if we hadn't been as concerned as we were, we'd never have taken the steps so that we could give the information to the community that there wasn't any serious contamination. That scrap yard has been there delivering PCBs for years before and you did nothing, absolutely nothing. The testing was done by us; the stopping of the delivery of the scrap . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKE R: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speak er, it was this government that stopped the delivery of transformers and batteries that were possibly carrying PCBs, that Instructed Hydro and other people who were sending them out to scrap metals that they could not do that anymore, that they were not allowed to send them out to scrap yards. Now what we do support, and we went on record, is that the people want the scrap yard out. They want the scrap yard out because it isn't good to have a scrap yard, cheek-by-jowl with families and with residences and the Department of the Environment went on record saying they support the abatement of the citizens .

MHSC - funding to non-union health care facilities MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The answer to a question should not become a speech. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of Health. The Manitoba Health Services Commission provides a lower level of funding for staff support to non-union health care facilities than lt does for staff in union facilities paying the same wages. Has the Minister any plans to change this discriminatory practice? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON.

L DESJARDINS: I'm so used to these long

preambles, Mr. Speaker , that I missed the question. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. The Manitoba Health Services Commission provides a lower level of funding for staff hired in non-union health care facilities than they do for staff in unionized facilities where they are paid the same wages. Does the government have any plans to end this discriminatory practice? HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Health Services Commission does not do the negotiating at any institution.

The funding is done by the Manitoba Health Services Commission at the request of the institution. Are you suggesting then that we should go ahead and do the negotiating ourselves? - (Interjection) - At no time did we refuse any funds because people were not unionized, at no time. There Is no discrimination. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. ·Speak er, a supplementary question to the Minister. Will the Manitoba Health Services Commission be providing the same level of financial support per employee, to non-unionized health care facilities, as they provide for unionized facilities, when the wages being paid are the same? HON.

L DESJARDINS: Yes, providing for the same amount for each employee, no discrimination. Education in Manitoba - Social Studies curriculum MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for· Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speak er. The Minister of Education attacked me yesterday for not bringing forward the facts, with respect to concerns in curricular development. Mr. Speaker . . . 2665

�nnday, 5 June, 1985 SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. C. MANNESS: . .. the Minis ter indicated she'd be tabling a copy of the curriculum in the Estimates and her words were, "We're proud of it." I have a copy now, Mr. Speaker. lt says it was approved by the Minister of Education. I ask the Minis ter if she has read the curriculum in questio n? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I'm not sure what - is the document that he has the K- 12 social studies curriculum? - (Interjection) - Ye s, Mr.

Speaker, that is approved curriculum, but the points that were being raised, I think, referred not to the curriculum - although there was a suggestion it was in the curriculum - but referred to a study that was undertaken about 15 years ago, that was a disc ussion paper that was never approved, that was never made part of the curriculum, and yet the suggestion was that this was our curriculum. MR. C. MANNESS: I never made that suggest ion. A MEMBER: You certainly did, oh yes, you did. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, I never made any comment with respect to some 15-year old study. Let the record show that. I asked a question of the Minis ter, whether she had read her own K-12 overview, approved by herself, because on Page 9, the reference is made to "Facts serve as only minute building blocks of the social studies course.

" On Page 11, she says, "The intention of the social studies program is to present opportunities for students to ident ify, explain, and eval uate their own, as well as others' feelings, beliefs and value s." My question to the Minis ter, does this curriculum down play history and facts and ins tead empha size that children determine their own values? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, Mr. Speaker, it does not.

And of course that's exactly the kind of misunde rstanding that takes place when somebody takes out of a document of about 100 or 150 pages, and takes one line, and tries to misrepresent or give a narrow meaning to it without looking at the whole curriculum.

When we get to the Estimates review , I think will be the appropriate time where we can do justice to talking about the full curriculum, not a little piece of it and not a misinterpretation of it, but the whole curriculum, because you have to look at the whole curriculum to see what is being taught in social studies. 1 can say, because this que stion has been raised in terms of social studies and health, that it's absolutely ridiculous to say that we do not teach any values in our school, either in health or social studies.

We have clear values that are accepted by the community, by the public at large, and those are taught in all of our courses. We do not dump material on the laps or the desks of children and say, you make of it what you will, or you decide of it what you will, that it is without judgment and without value. We do not do that. However, it's going to take a longer amount of time than I am allowed - since I was just reminded by the Speaker that answers shouldn't be speeches and I respect that.

I think that it will require debate in Estimates when we can do justice to the full - and one of the best social studies programs In Canada. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speak er, a final supplementa ry. Did the Minis ter approve, on Page 66, the Grade 6 overview, which indicates that teachers need not mention Canada's involvement in the Seco nd World War if they were studying life In Canada since 1940, and also a Grade 8 sec tion, Page 79, where the USSR and Cuba are listed as Second World countries and yet no reference is made to the United States whatso ever. My question . . . SOME HONO URABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. I really think that detailed questions would be better asked at the time of Estimates debate rather than at question period. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I listen to your admonlshment. However , it was the Minister yeste rday that challenged me to bring facts forward. Again, I ask the Minis ter whether she has read her own curriculum review that she has approved, by way of the coveri ng page, which says that she has approved it. A MEMBER: Have you read it? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speak er, I think tha t I indicated that this was ready for discussio n in Estimates. I didn't say to come back In question period. I said that we would take a full amount of 1ime to discuss this in Estimates. I will have to look at the full document. I think that the member opposite knows, he's got a document that's got a couple of hundred pages in it. Had he notified me ahead of time that he was going to ask specific questions on a document of that size, I could have had appropriate answers. I will take them as notice. Grasshopper infestation - proposed control program MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the fact that we've had, in the last few days, a tremendous outbreak of grasshoppers throughout southern Manitoba, not only in southwest Manitoba, 2666

Wednesday, 5 June, 1985 but in the Morden and the Winkler areas and all throughout the south, will the Minister take action to make sure there is adequate chemical for the farm community to control this massive hopper outbreak? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate to the honourable member that representatives of the three Prairie Provinces met in Regina last week with staff and with representatives of the chemical companies who are involved in the provision of chemical for the control of grasshoppers.

We were assured at that meeting that there are ample supplies available for farmers. We are following up on that assurance by contacting directly all the chemical companies to make sure, not only is there supply in the respective provinces, but that there is an adequate supply in the system so that farmers who require it will be able to get it. Those meetings are being held this afternoon and tomorrow. The honourable member should be aware, as well, that the Manitoba situat ion of the out break of grasshoppers has been somewhat delayed as compared to the Province of Saskatchewan.

We are slightly behind, in terms of development. Our staff, including . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: . . . the ag reps, the members of the branch, the entomology

section and students of the Manitoba municipalities and our own students are out in the field doing the monitoring and advising municipalities as to the most appropriate time to have the co-ordinated spray program that should be in place. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that yesterd ay, Saskatchewan had a massive airlif t of chemical, there have been numerous phone calls coming in from farmers unable to get chemical in southern Manitoba; in view of the fact that Alberta have introduced a program to help pay the spray for the farmers, as well as Saskatchewan introduced a program, will this Minister catch up to what's going on in rural Manitoba and introduce a program of support for spray and make sure today there's adequate chemical available for the farm community? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the member makes assertions about the Alberta program.

I have not seen the details of it, Mr.

Speaker, but I want to ind icate to the honourable mem ber that Saskatchewan did announce their program of paying one-half of the cost of the spray, of the chemical for road allowances in the Province of Saskatchewan, which is a fair bit different than the Province of Manitoba, where we supply the chemicals for the municipalities, not only the full cost of the chemical for all the road allowances and all public lands in the area, so that our program in Manitoba -which has been in place for many years -continues to be a reasonable program, Sir, but I certainly want to be assured that the statements of the companies last week, that the chemicals are in fact in place.

Our staff are meeting with them to make that assurance a reality. MR. J. DOWNEY: In view of the fact that Alberta has introduced a program to support their farmers directly; Saskatchewan has introduced a program to help their farmers directly; in view of the fact that there's a massive outbreak of hoppers taking place today in Manitoba, there's a shortage of chemical, there's a shortage of support from this government, why will he not take immediate action to support the farm community when it comes to controlling a massive outbr eak of grasshoppers? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I don't whether the honourable member wants the grandiose scheme of showing that we can hire the army to bring in chemicals when the chemicals are in the system. I don't want to do that; I want to make sure that the chemicals are there and available for farmers. We were given that assurance by the chemical companies that that chemical is in place.

We are calling them in to make sure that not only is it in place in Winnipeg, it is in place at the local areas where farmers do the picking up and that's the kind of assurance that we all can be proud of, or at least be assured that farmers have the chemical when they require it. Mr. Speaker, the member's assertion that somehow Manitoba is behind, in terms of the process - I want to repeat to the honourable member that the development of grassh oppers in the Province of Manitoba is not as advanced as it is in the Province of Saskatchewan. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, a final question.

In view of the fact that other provinces in Western Canada are receiving direct government support to support them in the purchase of spray, will the Minister of Agriculture introduce a program immediately to help the farm community purchase spray to kill grasshoppers? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, that assertion is not accurate. The Province of Saskatchewan and one of the chemical companies said that if you wanted the chemical in place earlier than we will have it in by truck; we will, in fact, fly it in.

The Province of Saskatchewan did, as I understand it, pay for part of the transportation costs over and above the trucking. Mr. Speaker , all companies assured Provincial Government representatives that chemicals were, in fact, in place. If the honourable member has received calls from farmers that there are not adequate chemicals in his area, I want to know about it, Mr. Speaker. I want the honourable member to inform me of what area is the chemical not in place. I want that from the honourable member. Air Canada Park - government contribution MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Min ister of Urban Affairs or the Min ister responsible for the North of Portage Development. Is the Provincial Government making a one-third contribution in regard to a $500,000 price tag for the 2667

Wednuday, 5 June, 1985 Air Canada Park on Portage Avenue, which is beside the gravel park in front of the Winnipeg Free Press? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. L. DESJARDINS: In fact, I can the answer in general. lt is a partnership of the three partners, but there are certain projects that one of the partners might not participate in, or that one partner will go it alone. There are different deals. In general it's pretty well one-third even, but that particular park, I will take the question as notice and try to give the answer. That is the park In front of the Air Canada Building. MR.

R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I also wonder whether the Minister has had an opportunity to look at the structure that is going up and whether he considers this hodgepodge design, with the purple and pink wall and the miscellaneous columns, either attractive or functional? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is seeking an opinion. If he wishes to seek Information, would he ask his question? The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister Is, given that this is a $500,000 investment, which appears to be unplanned and unco-ordinated, I'm simply asking the Minister whether he considers the design and the function of that park to merit the kind of Investment that is being put into it? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, this is . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is still asking for an opinion. If the honourable member wishes Information, would he ask a question for it? MPIC - Garages, Autopac repairs MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, yesterday at the close of question period, the Minister responsible for Autopac Indicated that there was no policy in place whereby Autopac would prevent garages from offering a saving to the customer in windshield replacement, that there was no policy in place to prevent that. In view of that statement, would the Mi nister responsible for Autopac please tell the corporation to stop withholding windshield replacement funds for work done, approved by adjusters, to Southland Garage in Carman, when they have offered a program to save the customers money? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I'll take that specific case under review and report back to the member. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, since the Minister is now taking the question as notice, could he explain why yesterday he indicated there was no policy in place which would prevent a garage from offering repairs at a saving to the customer, that no such policy existed?

Could the Minister now explain his obvious confusion over his answer today and the fact that he doesn't know that his Autopac is withholding funds from a garage doing such repairs to windshle lds and withholding money from the garage for doing .so? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, by Indicating that I would take the matter. under review was in no way confirming the statement or the allegation that was made by the member. I will review that situation and I will report back to the House. Provincial Parka - regulations for cottage owners MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. Considering the continuing increasing fees for cottage owners In provincial parks, can the Minister Indicate whether new regulations are being contemplated for cottage owners in provincial parks? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the policy that has been in effect for some time is currently In effect, and that does contain Increases in fees from year to year, yes. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

I'm asking the Min ister whether there are new regulations being contemplated in terms of regulations that govern buildings, etc., within provincial parks for cottage owners? HON. S. USKIW: Well, as the member perhaps doesn't appreciate or Isn't aware of, each year we have to pass a regulation establishing the fee structure with respect to certain services in the park system. Yes, that is done annually and we are currently involved in that process. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. I'm having some difficulty. I think we don't understand each other right.

I'm asking the Minister whether there are new regulations regarding structural buildings, expansions, and stuff like that, whether new regulations are being contemplated. I'm not necessarily referring to the fee structure at this stage of the game. I'm asking whether new regulations are being contemplated for people who want to expand a cottage, houseboat, boathouse, whatever the case may be. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speak er, I am advised by departmental officials that regulations with respect to that question are like the· soap opera, they keep changing all the time. The story goes on and on, 2668

Wedneaday, 5 June, 1985 however, because people never want to live with the same reg ulations that they agreed to the year before, there are always exceptions to the rule. We are again reviewing those reg ulations, Mr. Speaker, based on our experience. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Min ister then. Can the Min ister ind icate whether his people that are working with the proposed re gulations are in consultation with the Cottage Owners Association from Falcon Lake, West Hawk, and these areas? HON. S. US KIW: Mr . Speaker , there is always consultation with the users of the resource.

That's part of the process. I don't know what we're going to end up with after that process is complete, but I do know that we have problems with respect to the issue and we probably always will, in that the rules are not always upheld to the letter of the law. MR. A. DRIEDGER: A final supplementary to the Min ister. Could the Minister indicate that if he is proposing new regulations for cottage owners and provincial parks, whether those regulations are going to be made available to the members of the Legislature here? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker , whenever a reg ulation is passe d by Order-in-Council, members of course are apprised of lt. lt's a public document. If it's a policy position, I'll be prepared to announce that when it is complete. Lions Club- signs on PTHs advertising functions MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin Russe ll. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Min ister of Hi ghways and Transportat ion. Lions International, across North America and around the world, erect signs to advise the public of their presence and their dedication to the we ll-being of all mankind.

Can I ask the Minister of Highways what recent policy changes have taken place in his department now, which will not allow Lions in Manitoba to erect signs along provincial trunk hig hways to advise the local communities of their meetings and their presence in those areas? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker , I'll take that question as notice. MR. D. ORCHARD: You mean there's something you don't know, John? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Memb er for Roblin-Rus se ll. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder will the Honourable Min ister get in touch with the Grandview Lions Club, who have had their application turned down on the 15 th of May by the Highway Traffic Board, to erect a Lions Club sign in that community to advise the trave lling public of the presence of a Lions Club in Gran dview . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: . Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Min ister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We ll, Mr.

Speaker, the member is quite familiar that the Highway Traffic Board is responsible for these matters and there's a wide variety of different kinds of signs up there that have created a lot of difficulty for people in terms of the motorists that are trave lling on our highways and in terms of the information that they can absorb while they're driving and they have to make certain regulations with regard to ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . with regard to which signs are allowed and where they can be placed on the right of-way or outside of it.

Ail of those are established by the Traffic Board and we have not directed them any differently with reg ard to the particular signs that the member is mentioning: MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, it's most confusing. Does the Minister set policies in his department or somebody else? Can I ask him if he'll intervene on behalf of the Lions Club in Grandview and make sure that they can erect their sig n li ke hundr eds of commun ities across this province, like Lions Club signs along provincial highways? They'r e not adver tising anything. All they advertise is their presence and when they're meeting.

Would the Min ister intervene and please help the Grandview Lions Club solve this problem with the Highw ay Traffic Board? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Mini ster of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I too feel that the Lions Club serve a very valuable function and it's good to see that the member is supporting his Lions Club in his commun ity.

We certainly have not indicated in any way that we don't support the work that they do in the commun ities. it's quite a different matter that he's raising in terms of actually where the sign goes and that is a matter that the Traffic Board undertakes when they review each situation when it comes before them, in the same manner they always have, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. 2669

Wednesday, 5 June, 1985 COMMITTEE CHANGE MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Aiel. Order please, order please. MRS. D. DODICK: ... committee changes, Mr. Speaker, on Public Utilities and Natural Resources: Burrows for Wolseley; and Dauphin for Osborne. On Law Amendments: Thompson for Springfield; Flin Flon for Rupertsland; The Pas for Wolseley; Ste. Rose for lnterlake; and Transcona for Osborne. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MA. SPEAKER: Prior to Orders of the Day, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery.

We have 15 students of Grades 7, 8 and 9 standing from the Prairie View School under the direction of Mr. Heib ert . The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Morris. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. HOUSE BUSINESS MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Before we proceed with Orders of the Day, I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will meet tomorrow evening at 8:00 p.m. The Committee of Supply will not be sitting.

We would propose to adjourn the House at 5:30 tomorrow so that committee can sit tomorrow evening to complete Its hearings on the bills referred. For the benefit of members, Mr. Speaker, I understand that there are members of the public wishing to make representations on Bills 2 and, I believe, one person to date on Bill 47. There are no representations indicated on the other three or four bills before the committee. Mr.

Speaker, in addition, the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will sit tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. to continue its consideration of the Report of Manitoba Energy Authority , and following that Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board. ORDERS OF THE DAY HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to call the Second Readings on Bills 11 and 48, and following that the Adjourned Debates on Second Readings in the order on which they appear on the Order Paper. SECOND READINGS BILL 11 - THE AMUSEMENTS ACT HON. E. KOSTYAA presented, by leave, Bill No. 11,

An Act to amend The Amusements Act for second reading. (Recommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor) MOTION presented. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYAA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have copies of my notes. I'm pleased to introduce for Second Reading Bill 11 ,

An Act to amend The Amusements Act respecting proc edur e for the classification and regulation of film and vldeotapes and providing for the dissemination of information to residents of the province concerning the nature and contents of these products. The amendments proposed by this act complement initiatives begun in October, 1984, when the Legislature provided the Manitoba Film Classification Board with the authority to classify publicly-exhibited vldeotapes in order to provide consumers with the same information available to them with respect to films.

We now propose to make such information regarding the nature and content of videotapes to be distributed for home use available to the public. The classification of home use video materials is in response to concerns raised by members of the public as well as the video industry itself. Representatives of the Home and School Parent-Teacher Federat ion, the Manitoba Act ion Committee on the Status of Women, the Catholic Women's League, In particular, have expressed to us their desire to monitor the distribution of videos within the province.

Manitobans have told us that they want to be aware of the nature of the videotapes they are purchasing or renting for taking into their homes. They want to know and we believe they have a right to know if the videos contain scenes or themes which are not suitable for family viewing. This government is committed to making Manitoba a safe and healthy place to live. Furthermore, the Industry has voiced concerns about the distribution of unclassified videos which require them to make subjective judgments on suitability.

They have asked for guidance and direction to help them ascertain the relationship between the Individual video products and community standards. As a guide for members of the Industry and the consumer, the Manitoba Film Classification Board will be taking all the necessary steps to ensure that the public and the industry are well aware and informed. The law prohibiting the display and distribution of obscene material is governed by the Criminal Code which is, of course, federal legislation.

Our government will continue to support Initiatives to strengthen this aspect of the Criminal Code, particularly with respect to sexual violence and the exploitation of children for obscene purposes. The Attorney-General has announced that his department is Implementing a reinforced prosecution policy aimed particularly at sexual violence and the exploitation of children for obscene purposes. This policy complements the Home Use Video Classification Program.

We will be undertaking educational Initiatives and producing materials to inform the public of new classification categories and what they mean and to raise awareness of their rights as consumers and the steps they may take, should they wish to raise objections or concern about the content of video materials. Minor regulatory changes will be made to the current classification categories for film, including the category currently called Adult Parental Guidance. The current category req uires those under the age of 18 be accompanied by a parent or adult guardian.

In recognition of the different levels of emotional and physical maturity between the ages of 15 and 18 years, 2670

Wedneac:I•J, 5 June, 1885 the Adult Parental Guidance category will be replace by the new category of Parental Accompaniment. This new classification will require that those under the age of 15 be accompanied by a parent or adult guardian. In effect, this reduces the current Adult Parental Guidance age limit from 18 to 15 years of age and creates a new category of film suitable for viewing by those aged 15 to 18. it does not, however, alter the restricted category that will continue to identify those films that are not suitable for viewing by those under the age of 18.

The classification categories would then include, General - Suitable Viewing for All; Mature - Suitable Viewing for All; Parental Discretion Advised; Parental Accompaniment - Not Suitable Viewing for those Under the age of 15 unless accompanied by a Parent or Adult Guardian; finally, Restricted 18 - Not Suitable Viewing for those under the age of 18. Consumers, distributors, video retailers and the Manitoba Film Classification Board will all require time to prepare for and adjust to the new environment.

Furthermore, there is substantial backlog of material which will require time to classify and the industry will need some time to respond to new requirements. This new initiative, I am pleased to say, can be implemented at minimal cost to the consumer and the retailer. Although all distributors will have to be licensed as film exchanges, the cost to them and subsequently the cost passed on to the consumer will be a small price to pay for this essential service. it will enable us to put in place measures required to effect the mandatory classification of home use video materials.

The legislation also ensures that the industry's concerns will be fairly protected. Measures are built into the act which will ensure that licensing decisions are taking into account only relevant consideration, excluding from consideration irrelevant matters. The statute entrenches the rights of all applicants to know of a decision being made and the reasons behind the decision. The right to challenge the evidence before the board and test its validity is built into the legislation to ensure that all decisions are based on the best possible information.

Procedural fairness requirements protecting the right of all parties provide the foundation for the operating principles of the Manitoba Film Classification Board. In conclusion, I would recommend Bill 11 to the honourable members for their consideration and eventual adoption. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for St. Norbert, that debate be adjourned. MOTION preeented and carried. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Prior to calling the next bill, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery. We have 60 students of Grade 8 standing from the Virden Junior High School. They are under the direction of Mr. Hurst, Mr. Jones, Mrs. Scott, Mrs. Browning and Mrs. Nykoliation. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Virden. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. BILL 48 - THE MUNICIPAL ASSESSMENT ACT AND VARIOUS OTHER ACTS OF THE LEGISLATURE HON. A. ANSTETT presented, by leave, Bill No. 48,

An Act to amend The Municipal Assessment Act and Various Other Acts of the Legislature, for second reading. MOTION preeented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speak er, I'm very pleased today to be able to introduce Bill No. 48,

An Act to amend The Municipal Act and various other statutes. These amendments represent the next legislative step in our government's overall program of assessment reform. At the conclusion of my remarks, the Clerk will be distributing a detailed clause-by-clause comparison of the old statutes and the changes with explanatory notes for the guidance of members at committee stage and, if necessary, to provide some assistance during debate on principle at second reading. Mr. Speaker, I will try now to touch on some of the main points of the legislation for second reading debate.

Part 3 of The Municipal Assessment Act deals with the appeal process in the legislation and it is primarily this part of the act which is addressed in this bill. Appeal provisions are also found, however, in The City of Winnipeg Act, the City of Brandon Charter, the City of Portage Charter; and so there are procedures which have to be made uniform in those three statutes as well and those are the various other acts to which the title of the bill refers. The procedures in them now are not consistent or uniform and it's the intent to provide consistency amongst these acts, which the bill addresses.

Bill 48 will provide a uniform, revised and simplified process by which ratepayers can appeal perceived inequities in our assessment system. I'd like to emphasize that this same approach of consolidation and uniformity will be an ongoing priority for the other parts of the bill as we reach each step or phase of the assessment reform process; and it will be the same approach used for future legislative amendments.

In principle then, Bill No. 48 deals with the appeal process which commences when a local board of revision hears appeals, with follow-up appeals as desired by either the assessor. the community or the individual ratepayer, to the Municipal Board of Manitoba or, depending on the nature of the appeal, to the Court of Queen's Bench and the Court of Appeal. The legislation outlines, in· a chronological manner, more exact than it was in the past, the procedures that an appellant would follow in see king to resolve inequities in the valuation of his or her property.

The amendments take into account the research of my own department, 2671

Wednesday, 5 June, 1985 as well as numerous submissions from the public and, Sir, most importantly I believe for all members of the House, over 40 reco mmendations on the su bject from the report of the Manitoba Assessment Review Committee. Mr. Speaker, almost one-quarter of the recommendations of the Weir Com mittee are being imp lemented in this bill. Most of the revised sect ions involve only a clarification or rewording simplif ication of the process, and I won't deal with those at this time. However, there are a number of policy changes that are of some Import and I would like to comment on those briefly .

The Weir Comm ittee and subsequently the Municipal Affairs Standing Comm ittee of this Legislature held various repres entations regarding the composition of courts and boards of revision. Some ratepayers saw merit In having only councillors on the boards, while others suggested that boards composed of non-council members would be fairer to hearing complaints from ratepayers. Opinions on this su bject are to some extent determined by the size of the community, the nature and complexity of the geographical municipality and also on the types of appeals they've historically heard.

In some of the larger urban municipalities, Mr. Speaker, I think it's very clear that property valuations can become very complex. There may be a particular value in allowing and specifically prov iding for the appointment of citizen experts to sit on these appeal bodies.

In smaller rural municipalities, it can be argued the duties of a municipal council are such that individual councillors are ideally suited to serve as members of the courts or boards of revi sion. lt's proposed that the legislation take these differing circums tances into account and that the local council have the option of sitting as a board of revision themselves or of appointing a board that's comprised of non-council members only or a combination of councillors and non-councillors.

Te rminology with respect to the revision process would be standardized so that all of these quasi-judicial bodies are hereinafter referred to as boards of revisio n, the term that's used for The City of Winnipeg Act, Instead of allowing two different terms to be used. We will no longer have courts of revisi on. The boards of revision provincewlde will perform exactly the same function. The second major change, Mr.

Speaker, is with regard to The City of Winnipeg Act where an appeal is currently allowed from the Court of Queen's Bench to the Court of Appeal in those cases where the appeal Is with respect to liability. Bill 48 would extend this right which is provided in The City of Winnipeg Act, as I mentioned, to all of the citizens of Manitoba. If the asse ssment system is to be uniform provincewide, it only makes sense, and I would consider it esse ntial that the system have the benefit of the role of the Court of Appeal which has a precedential role in est ablishing uniformity and consistency in the

interpretation of legislatio n. A third change, Mr. Speaker, which is another one of principle is contained regarding the instruction to the Manitoba Municipal Board in its role in hearing assessm ent appeals. For the first time, it'll be mandatory for the board when it delivers its order to give specific reaso ns for the decision contained therei n.

This change will remove some of the mystery from the asse ssment process and will facilitate the understanding of ratepayers, councillor s and legal counsel in the procedures involved. lt will then serve, much as the Court of Appeal will serve, with regar d to questions of liabil ity as a precedential body, Sir, es tablishin g precedents with reaso ns so that the rationale of those decisions will be made known to the public. Those, Sir, are the three major changes In principle.

The balance of the changes deal with wording clarifications, archaic refere nces and minor technical revisions, most of which were recommended by the We ir Committee. The result of the rewritten sec tion of

Part 3 of The Assessm ent Act will, I believe, be a fairer and more easily understood system which ratepayers will find much more adaptable to their needs to ask questions and, if necessary , appeal the accuracy of their property assessm ent. Provincewlde uniformity will have been established in this significant part of the legislation affecting assessment and public Involvement in the asses sment process will be simplified by these ref orms. Mr.

Speaker, before concluding my rema rks, I should make refere nce to a provision which I would be the first to concede I had not last fall intended to include in this bill. it falls outside the general theme of revising the appeal proceedings. Sec tions 30(2) and 30(3) of the current Municipal Act deal with the exemption of farm buildings and farm dwellings from taxation. For many years, Sir, they've been the most contentious sections because they deal with the principle, the application of which has given municipal councils, the Asses sment Branch and rural ratepayers a great deal of difficulty.

They've been acknowledged to be, by most people, at best inequitable and cer tainly exceedingly difficult to adminis ter. As I' ve Indicated, Mr. Speak er, on nume rous occasions before conclusive action could be taken to deal with the question of building exemptions, it'll be necessary for us to have complete asse ssment data for the whole of the province. Before all of the reforms dealing with classification and portioning and other exemption problems can be implemented, we need to know what the impact of those changes will be.

Members know over the last several years in Est imates and public information process that my Assessment Branch has been actively engaged in a crash program to pick up the asse ssment on all farm out-buildings and other farm dwellings that had not been previously assessed. That program will be completed In September of this year, only three months away approximately . Staff will then have an opportunity to analyse this data, work with the new City of Winnipeg data which we expect in the fall of this year and to begin to deal with the problem In the complete sense of full, up-to-date information.

However, notwithstanding this long-term goal, circumstances over the past year have resulted in a minor amendment being proposed to this sect ion at this time which addresses a question of important principle in the old act. Some members are aware and questions have been asked In the past about a Court of Queen's Bench decision in the Town of Dauphin earlier this year. This decision placed an interpretat ion on the two sections I refe renced earlier which could result in vast numbers of currently taxable dwellings 2672

w.dneedaJ, 5 June, 1185 being eligible to move to tax-exempt status. In one • municipality sampled by my staff, it's conceivable that over $4 million in taxable assess ment could make this shift to exempt status. In order to prevent such losses in revenue and the total erosion really of the assessment base of many rural municipalities in the province, an interim solution is put forward in Bill 48. The wording change itself is very minor and I don't propose to go into detailed discussion or examination of the

section at this stage, - I think that would be inappropriate - but I'd be happy to assist members with it at committee stage. The purpose of this section, however, is to maintain the principle as it was originally conceived and as it was Interpreted until the December, 1984, Dauphin court case. Having considered the options available, I believe the proposed change represents the fairest approach that can be taken at this time to ensure that the act continues to be Interpreted as it was in the past. Mr. Speaker, that concludes my Introductory remarks on the principles of the bill.

I'll be happy to answer detailed questions at committee stage. If there are questions now about either the principle or any other questions with regard to the intent of the bill, I'd be pleased to answer them. Thank you. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MA. H. GAAHAM: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would permit a couple of questions. The Minister indicated there was a possibility because of the Dauphin court case that there could be an adverse effect on one municipality of a possibility of $4 million. Could the Minister indicate which municipality he was refe rring to? HON. A.

ANSTETT: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, I believe the staff assessment was done on the R.M. of St. Clements actually. I don't have the data with me, but I believe the R.M. of St. Clements' assessment is In the $25 million range. I can check for the honourable mem ber. In fact, I may have it, just one moment. lt's in the range of 15-20 percent in many rural municipalities. That has the potential of a fairly dramatic impact on their total revenues and their assessme nt. Mr. Speaker, I don't have that Information here. Actually the member will find the total amount for St.

Clements in the computer printout I gave him during Estimates consideration and he'll be able to compare the total against the 4 million. We did not do that for every municipality. That would be a large task. lt could be done. The fact of the matter Is we don't believe that's a change that should be allowed to take place, so we're amending the legislation to ensure that the original Intent and the

interpretation up to December, 1984, continues to be the way the act operates till we're ready for the actual reform of those sections. MA. H. GAAHAM: A second question to the Minister dealing with the appeal procedure and the board of revision as it affects the City of Winnipeg. Can the Minister Indicate whether dialogue was held with the councils and the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg prior to the changes that have taken place with reference to

Section 223 of The Municipal Act. HON. A. ANSTETT: I just want clarification. With reference to

Section 223 the member said of The Municipal Act or of The City of Winnipeg Act? MA. H. GAAHAM: The Municipal Assessment Act. HON. A. ANSTETT: Oh, okay. Mr. Speaker, there were discussions with regard to

Section 223 of The Municipal Assessment Act with the City of Winnipeg, rural municipalities, both associa tions, towns and villages, both by the Weir Committee and their recommendations reflect those discussions and by the Standing Committee of Municipal AffairS when it held Its hearings on municipal assessment reform. The member was on that committee and I chaired those hearings. There was following that subsequent consultation with the municipal associations through their executives on the progress of assessment re form, where we would be starting and an indication of the phasing.

They are familiar with those recommendations. I have not held meetings with them in the last month or so, specifically on the wording of the section, but clearly the endorsatlon of municipal government on the intent was clear at the Standing Committee meetings almost two years ago now and, certain ly, is reflective of their opinions as expressed In the Weir Report. I expect that these changes will be well received by local government right across the province. MA. H. GAAHAM: A final question to the Minister. Can the Minister assu re us that the addition of two�al clauses to

Section 233 will not adversely affect the transfer of property in the City of Winnipeg? Well, Mr. Speaker , perhaps the Minister can give me the information privately '1llterwanis. -t'o ee. ""lte prepared at this time to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Norbert,that debale be adjourned. MOnON p,.... nted and carried. MA. SPEAKER: On the propos ed motion of the Honourable Minister of Community Services, Bill No. 3. The Honourable Mem ber for Rhineland. MA. A. BROWN: Stand. MA. SPEAKER: Stand. ADJOURNED DE BATE ON SECOND READINGS BILL 5 - THE FREEDOM OF INFOR MATION ACT MA.

SPEAK ER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General, Bill No. 5 - the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MA. G. MEACIEA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, although the Attorney-General only introduced this bill for second reading yesterd ay, we have had an opportunity to consider it and discuss it, 2673

and perhaps I can say in advance, we're prepared to support Its passage U\rough to Law Amendments Committee for receipt of public representations. Mr. Speaker, we certainly on this side of the House can support the principle that Individual citizens have the right to know and obtain information from the government, subject to the government's obligation to act In the public interest and to perform its legitimate functions. People In government sometimes forget that government is there to serve the public and not be its master. Mr.

Speaker, there also Is a tendency, I think, on the part of governments of all political stripes to have a tendency to be too secretive, a tendency which is followed through by members of the Civil Service. Mr.

Speaker, information in the hands of government which can perhaps through this bill be communicated to the public should have a tendency to lead to and we hope to induce more honesty and candour In government, with government knowing, members of the Civil Service knowing that much of the Information in their hands, that they can be compelled to produce that information to applicants under the terms of this bill. Mr.

Speaker, I believe that open government has to be the basis of a stronger democracy and hopefully again through this process, through more informamm being made available to members of the public, that the democratic process can be strengthened. Let me say for a moment, Mr. Speaker, going back to previous debates in this Legislature, there have been concerns and positions taken by respected members of this Legislature that the Estimates review process was sufficient that such legislation Is not required. Mr.

Speaker, certainly the Estimates process is helpful for the purpose of obtaining information by members of the Legislature. Government has become so large and such a big factor in the everyday lives of our citizens that it Is simply not enough that through the Estimates process some information can be obtained by members of the Legislature and, in many cases, Individual members of thetr constituency. lt is for that reason that legislation of this kind is, perhaps regrettable, but is in fact necessary.

There are dangers, however, in this type of legislation because there may be a tendency -and hopefully it will not happen -that once a piece of legislation is passed that says that this type of Information can be made available to the public, that will automatically become the limit on what Information can be made available to the public, when In fact there Is nothing wrong with making more information available to the public In certain circumstances; so there's danger that by being specific and having specific exemptions that that could result in a limitation on the amount of Information that could be made available to the public without any danger.

There's also a danger that this kind of legislation might produce more secrecy in government, not less, but only more carefully concealed. There is much literature on t�is subject, Mr. Speaker, and I have kept a file on this whole concept since 1977. There are certainly articles and recommendations that suggest that members of the Civil Service or individuals will be asked, don't write, send word or call me, and there may be a tendency to put less and less information about what is going on, in written form, and instead, communicate verbally, which may result in more secrecy about what Is actually taking place.

Mr. Speaker, this kind of legislation is Important because certainly there is a tendency In government, and we certainly know that on this side, particularly during the past few years, where although we have what would be called a propaganda blizzard or a huge advertising campaign at the expense of taxpayers, there is really little Information given out. We have there, not Information being given out, but a propaganda campaign. Mr. Speaker, there are other concerns that I would like to raise, that I hope the Minister, the Attorney General will deal with when this bill Is in committee.

One particular area is In the whole area of protection of individual privacy, and that does not appear to be dealt with in this bill. In dealing with this whole area of freedom of information, numerous reports In the past -for example, one that was done and released in Ontario In October of 1980, Commission on Freedom of Information and Individual Privac y, noted that protection of Individual privacy legislation should be Improved at the same time as you deal with freedom of information laws. They suggested -and I note the

summary of their recommendations In order that the Attorney-General might respond in committee to these areas -that there be a comprehensive data protection law to accomplish the following: To encourage restraint in fairness In the collection of personal data by government, Mr. Speaker.

The Attorney-General, In his opening remarks, indicated that he thought that about ten to one of every other type of application will be by Individuals, with respect to Information in the hands of government on themselves, but there doesn't appear in this legislation to be any particular reform In that area and I think that is an area and the Attorney-General, obvious ly, confirmed that, that one of the major concerns of the public Is In the area of collection of personal data on them by the government.

The report went on to recommend that such laws should ensure that the public is aware of the existence and nature of government information systems which contain personal data. I think it can be said fairly, Mr. Speaker, that in this province, members of the public are not aware of the type of personal data that Is collected and stored and maintained by government departments, agencies or corporations with respect to themselves. The report in 19 80 In Ontario, also recommended that individuals or that the law permit individuals to examine and correct records containing personal information to them.

Of course, that aspect of lt, I think, is in this piece of legislation, but the two previous recommendations are Important parts of this whole area of protection of individual privacy that are not dealt with. So that, Mr. Speaker, Is a concern. I believe, federally, when the Freedom of Information Act was introduced, there was also legislation that dealt with this whole area of protection of individual privacy.

I would encourage the Attorney-General to perhaps comment on this further, If he closes debate on second reading or deal with it in committee because it is a very important area of this whole subject matter. Mr. Speaker, a couple of smaller principles in this bill that I raise for the record that I would want the Attorney-General to deal with In committee: 2674

Wedneaday, 5 June, 1985 One is with respect to the principle In

Section 13 of the bill, which indicates that where an applicant for custody of reco rds, receives information and objects to it, he can submit a note from himself which will be attached to the part of the record that he objects to, Mr. Speaker, but there's no provision for correcting the reco rd. So we have a situation where certain allegations might be made, that are contained in government records that an ind ividual applies for and receives. They could be totally Inaccurate, totally mistaken, and he writes in and objects to those mistakes.

That letter Is attached to the file, but there's no correction of the record. That, Mr. Speaker, seems to me to be an area in which some amendments should be considered so that mistaken records in the hands of government can be corrected by individuals in our province and clarify the whole record. Otherwise, what is the purpose of obtaining the record and just being able to write a letter that's placed on the file, without having any decision made as to what should be the correct re cords? Again, Mr. Speaker, with respect to

Section 48(1) with respect to personal records not being made available, which are made prior to the coming into force of this section; although the Attorney-General dealt with it in his opening remarks, I think there should be some consideration given to changing this particular section, if in fact, there are mistaken or inaccurate records on file about indi viduals. it's difficult, Mr. Speaker, to justify why any records should not be made available in that particular area to indi viduals who want to apply for them. Surely, we would simply be perpet uating mistakes which may be on the record about individuals.

Perhaps this more correctly relates to the comments I made about protection of individual privacy, that somehow there has to be a method of dealing with personal records on individuals and ensuring that there's a method of correct ing them and changing those records where they are, in fact, wrong. Mr. Speaker, the definition of applicant says simply, "a person who applies for access to a record under this act ." Now I suppos e the Attorney-General considered this, Mr.

Speaker, but that makes it open to any pers on, not only in Manitoba, Canada, or the United States, but in the world, to apply for access to records under this act. I belie ve there are some restrict ions in the federal legislation confining it to Canadian citizens or Canadian corporations, and this is an area which I would ask the Attorney-General to expand upon in committee when we reach that de finition

section because, as it is, it leaves it wide open to anyone to apply for access to records. Another area, Mr. Speaker, I would raise for the record , which we would like to pursue with the Attorney General In committee, is the principle of appealing to the courts. That is a very costly procedure and in other freedom of .information reports, certainly there's not unanimity on who should·be the final arbit rator, because some areas have used Leg islature, some have used courts. But another suggestion has been, Mr.

Speaker , a commis sion with a mem ber appoint ed by the government and a member appointed by the opposition, and then those two mem bers would select a chairman, and that commission would make the final enquiries. The advantage of that system is that you, I believe, would have a less costly proced ure for appealing than you would by originating notice of motion to the courts as set out in this particular bill. Those services would undoub tedly require retaining a lawyer to act In that particular case and I believe the costs could be quite an impediment to someone pursuing an appeal to the courts.

I would ask through you, Mr. Speaker , that the Attorney-General at least advise members of this House, in committee, as to why he rejected or whether in fact he considered the appointment of a commission that would hear final appeals with respect to these matters, which would be a less costly procedure than allowing the appeals to go to court. Mr. Speaker, another concern I raise is with respect to

Section 58 of the act and the principle that Is embodied in that

section which has the headlines: "Procee dings against Government Prohibited ." lt points out that there is no proceeding against the head of a department or other officer or emp loyee or the government or any department for (a),(

b) and (

c) the consequences which flow from such access. I would ask, Mr. Speaker, the question - and the Attorney-General may have an answer - but If in fact someone in the Civil Service, in a department, has made a mistake with respect to maintaining records on Individual citizens of Manitoba, and there is an injur y or harm or financial loss that flows to an individual as a result of that wrongful record ; then I suggest that the gove rnment should be resp onsible for compensation for negligence. As a matter of principle, Mr.

Speaker, I don't believe that just because the government is able to pass legislation and able to include such a prohibition, that it is fair to individuals in our society to include a prohibition against actions against the gover nment for negligence in maintaining wrongful records on individual citizens in the province. I would ask that the Attorney General give some consideration to an amendment to that sect ion and to discussing it in committee.

Cer tainly the government alr eady has liabili ty insurance and of course requires it for members of Cabine t because of the large numbers of actions for slander and libel that have been taken against members of Cabinet In the past few years. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the increase in premium for such liability insurance coverage might Indeed not be that great , and I think would be a fairer situation for in dividual citizens In Manitoba . Mr. Speaker, a further area of concern we'll wish to raise in committee is with respect to law enforcement.

In reviewing the provisions of this bill, it would appear that there should be no interference in law enforcement or criminal investi gations, or anything of that type, Mr. Speak er, but we would want to be assured in committee, and hopefully copies of this bill will be provided to law enforcement authorities in the province, members of the RCMP, and the City of Winni peg Police Depart ment, in order to ensure that this bill will not, In any way, obstruct law enforcement activities in the province.

We heard today in question period about the Increase in major crimes, in fact with respect to break and enter charges, the difficulty of finding person or persons who are committing those offences, and the last thing that 2675

Wednesd ay, 5 June, 1985 our law enforcement system needs is any interference in it, by virtue of this act, that would jeopardize law enforcement and criminal investigations. Mr. Speaker, another concern that was not mentioned by the Attorney-General was any indication of the cost or the administrative burden that would be placed on the Civil Service as a result of the implementation of this act. We appreciate, Mr. Speaker, that it is difficult to estimate because it is difficult to forecast the number of applications or the kind of applications that will be made under the act.

But perhaps the Attorney-General could obtain for us some indication of the costs of such legislation, I believe in one or two other provinces where it has been introduced, and acted upon, so we might have some indication of what cost the taxpayer is looking at in implementing this kind of legislation. Mr. Speaker, we look forward to reviewing this bill in committee, to hearing any public representations that are made on it. Certainly it is a bill, Mr.

Speaker, that would not be necessary if governments did not have - and I say governments unfortunately of all political stripes -did not have a tendency to be too secretive. lt would not be necessar y, if, in fact, governments were more honest and more candid with the information that they possess and have possessed in the past, Mr. Speaker. lt is for that reason and valid concerns for individual invasions of individual privacy that such legislation is necessary. Mr.

Speaker, hopefully it will not become in fact a limitation rather than an expansion of the information that is made available to members of the public, and that in fact it will not result in more secrecy amongst members of the Civil Service, but will result in more openness. Mr. Speaker, one final comment, as I read the bill and I look at the exemptions to the types of information that can be made available to the public. In my file I happened to come upon a statement made by the Attorney-General on February 20th of 19 82, Mr. Speaker, quoted in a column by Mr. Val Warier, and I enjoyed the comment because Mr.

Warier stated in the column: "Attorney-General Roland Penner says legislat ion," and he's talking about freedom of information, ". . . legislation will likely be introduced before the end of the year." That was February 20, 1982. And then he quotes Mr. Penner as sa ying, "I expect it will be short, direct, easy to administer and unencumbered with a thousand and one exceptions, which may well turn the federal legislation into a bureaucratic nightmare.'' Mr. Speaker, it's easy to see how the responsibilities of government and office have affected Mr.

Penner's outlook over the years, as we look at the exemptions and the limitations on information that can be made available to the public. In many cases, Mr. Speaker, certainly they may very well be legitimate because the government does have an obligation and a responsibility to act in the public interest and to perform certain legitimate functions. But in any event, Mr. Speaker, we'll look forward to dealing with this bill in committee, and hearing the public recommendations and representations that are made on it, and dealing with some of the concerns which I have outlined today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. I would remind the honourable member he should not refer to other members of the House by name. Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I just have a question for the Honourable Member for St. Norb ert, more as to process than to content of his remarks. He asked quite a few questions. I'm wondering if he would consider it appropriate to have those addressed at committee stage, or if he would prefer that the Attorney General, having perused Hansard, had an opportunity to put his replies on record at second reading stage? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Nobert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I would be quite prepared to deal with them at committee. I don't think it's necessary that the Attorney-General deal with them on second reading. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, rather than proceed with the balance of the Adjourned Debates, I've had an indication that there would be a request to have them stand, so I would like to propose, Sir, that we now move into Committee of Supply. Mr.

Speaker, I would ask if there is leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? (Agreed) HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The House Committee will be in Agriculture; the Comm ittee in Room 255 will be dealing with Employment Services and Economic Security. I would therefore move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Housing, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security; and the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EMPLOYMENT SERVICES AND ECONOMIC SECURITY MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. We are considering Item No. 3.(b)

(1) Employment Development Youth Services, Salaries; 3.( b)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3.(b)

(3) Employment Programs. 2676

Wednesd ay, 5 June, 1985 The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, do I have leave to go back to Economic Security? MR. CH AIRM AN: Is this leave gr anted by the committee? A MEMBER: Sure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, there Is one problem, and that is we don't have the Economic Security staff with us In case there's a lot of detailed questions. I was suggesting last night we do it under discussion of my salary, because that is an omnibus item. I haven't got any strong feelings on it.

If it's just the one matter that I can deal with, I would be pleased to do that. MRS. G. HAMMOND: We can deal with it under the Minister's Salary. That's not a problem for me, as long as -the Minister yesterday had indicated that I would be receiving a letter. Well, I haven't received it yet and it would be of some great help if I had the letter dealing with the issue, because I've been getting phone calls and I've been sort of waiting to receive lt. HON. L. EVANS: Yes I signed the letter; it was going to go out last week. I asked for some additional information. lt was held up on that account.

I've signed the letter. I have a copy of it here. We can maybe make a photostat and give you the copy, but there is one in the mall. I don't know why it has to take so long to get to you In this building. lt was mailed out yesterday, but this was In regard to one particular constituent, one particular social case. I was just going to say this, there is a difficulty under the act, we're not supposed to discuss confidential matters pertaining to any particular client, unless that client distinctly gives us permission, but we don't normally discuss a person on that basis.

We can di scuss principles related to that, Mr. Chairman, but we shouldn't discuss the Individual case in public, because it's contravening the regulations in the act. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that qualification acceptable? The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes if I may, Mr. Chairman. Could we discuss the case without using names, which I had no intention of doing in any case? HON. L. EVANS: As long as the confidentiality is protected. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm sure it is. HON. L. EVANS: In fact, that individual could perhaps sue us even - well maybe not in this committee but MRS. G.

HAMMOND: He may be suing anyway. HON. L. EVANS: He's been around a long time. MRS. G. HAMMOND: We can wait on this matter till your salary. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, we could go on then to the program under Employment Development and Youth Services. The Minister put out a press release in February of 1985, concerning Child Care Training and Substitute Workers' Program, in which he and the Mini ster of Commun ity Services had signed an agreement to help with the training of child care workers. Is this program presently under way? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MRS. C.

OLESON: And that is to do with the day care workers, to advance their level of education to comply with the legislation, I take it? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, that's correct. MRS. C. OLESON: Where are these programs offered? HON. L. EVANS: That money comes from the Manitoba Jobs and Training Program. lt's a multimlllion dollar program and we ded icated several hundr eds of thousands of dollars with that organization. lt fits the terms of that program. MRS. C. OLESON: Where is it offered though, what centres? HON. L. EVANS: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, I stand corrected.

There was a separate allocation made out of the Manitoba Jobs Fund for that program and it's not out of the Manitoba Jobs and Training Program funding, so I have to correct that. The delivery of the program is through Education and the Department of Community Services and we're not quite sure exactly where they're delivering the program. If you mean the towns and the cities, well in certainly Winnipeg . · MRS. C. OLESON: I wondered if it was community colleges or where it was. HON. L. EVANS: The staff person who woi"Xs on that is not yet here.

That comes under a different section. lt comes under the Federal-Provincial section, so we could get that detail subsequently. I couldn't tell the member right at the moment. MRS. C. OLESON: Well, perhaps we could leave that and come back to it. In the youth programs, the Job Opportunity Services which was mentioned in the Annual Report, where are the offices of the Job Opportunity Service? HON. L. EVANS: Well there are over 40 of them. MRS. C. OLESON: That's job centres. 26n

Wedneeday , 5 June, 1985 HON. L. EVANS: Yes, okay, I thought you were talking about the job centres. lt is located in Winnipeg in the Norquay Building. There is one located in the Norquay Building. MRS. C. OLESON: So there's one for the province. Well then just how do they deliver their service if there's one centre? HON. L.

EVANS: There a central registry of students interested in employment and they deal with universities and community colleges, and so on. lt's a centralized service, but our field staff are the staff scattered throughout Manitoba, who interface with the young people and the busi nesses who may be hiring them in the non-profit organizations. We have a large field staff and, of course, we have the Youth Job Centres, 42 of them, so they are scattered throughout the province. Then, of course, that information that's collected in the central office, of course, is made available to the staff. MRS. C.

OLESON: lt performs the function of being a registry for people and jobs and trying to match them? HON. L. EVANS: That's right. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Minister tell us how much money is allocated to that program? HON. L EVANS: We don't have a separate salary item for that staff because they're used on other programs throughout the year. In other words, it tends to be a seasonal matter; you're very busy one or two months of the year. There's no separate staff for that but they have various duties; job opportunity service is one of those duties.

There isn't any specific money allocated for salaries just for the job opportunity service. I suppose we could make some sort of an estimate but it would be a relatively small amount of money, I would imagine. MRS. C. OLESON: The Youth Job Centres that the Minister was referring to earlier, there were 42 of them last year. Are there the same number this year? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is correct. MRS. C. OLESON: And the same funding? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, it's by and large the same program as the previous year.

There are 42 centres. it's generally the same program as last year whereby we have 2. 16 staff years involved . That was the administrative money but ultimately what we do is provide grants just under $4,000 to 34 communities and the organizations in those communities in turn go out and hire the young person who manages the little office in that particular community. The other centres are in conjunction with Canada Employment. For instance, in Brandon or Selkirk we placed a person in the Canada Employment Office, but those are the eight larger communities. The 34 other centres are smaller towns.

These people are selected by a local committee representing some organization that happens to have an interest in it or, in some instances, it's the municipal government. MRS. C. OLESON: The offices that they use, does the municipal corporation or the group that looks after it provide the office space or does in any case this department pay rent and so forth for facilities for those people? HON. L.

EVANS: Essentially, our money goes to the salary of the young person who is managing the centre and I think there's a little bit of money for operational expense, $490, but the rent for the space provided by the organization who may, In turn, get it from a municipal government; in some Instances they're using the municipal hall, or they may use some other community facility, but we don't pay the rent. MRS. C. OLESON: I think in some cases they use rooms in school and so forth too. Is there wage assistance for the students that obtain jobs through this? HON. L.

EVANS: If employers approach us to obtain names for students that they would like to hire under Careerstart, we will provide that information; otherwise, the answer is no. There are a number of employers around Manitoba who may be approved for two or three positions who don't have a particular young person in mind that they'd like to hire, so they can come to this office and ask for suggested names and they get advice on the student's background and that sort of thing, maybe interview a few. To that extent, we facilitate Careerstart, but otherwise, no. MRS. C. OLESON: What age group is this mainly geared for?

Is it not mainly high school students or is it older students as well -university types? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, just for clarification. Does this department have a program under the International Year of the Youth, the Manitoba sponsored employment program? If so, I wonder what

section this would be covered under. HON. L. EVANS: The IVY is funded totally out of monies provided by the Manitoba Jobs Fund, but I, as the responsible Minister for administering it, have the staff located -and they're all temporary staff, of course, because we're only talking about a one-year effort - we have them located In our department. We're prepared to answer some questions on that right here, if you wish, but we are also prepared to answer it under the Manitoba Jobs Fund. MR. D. GOURLAY: Was there a news release indicating the details of this program, announced some time during the year? HON. L.

EVANS: Not only one, but many, and we've been doing our darndest to involve the MLAs and I want to congratulate many MLAs of the opposition. I think they've been very -my colleagues over here don't 2678

Wednesday, 5 June, 1985 want to hear this - active in helping us in their areas. Some MLAs have taken a great interest and have been quite involved. What we're trying to do ultima tely is to get the whole province involved. lt's not a government effort . All we're doing is sort of stimula ting it and, hopefully , getting communities and young people's organizations, high school students and the like to become Int erested In participating in some special program under the theme of IVY year, namely Peace, Participation and Development.

As a result, we have had many organizations, 4-H Clubs, for example, had been very active around the province. Many MLAs have been involved in their areas and have gone to various ceremonies and so on and, yes, we have disseminated information. MR. D. GOURLAY: What basically were the criteria for being eligible to participate in this program? HON. L. EYANS: Are you talking about the grants that are being made or are you just talking about being involved? If you're talking about being involved - anybody - we try to encourage the entire youth population of Manitoba to be involved.

We try to encourage local committees to be set up, etc. There was an advisory committee. We wrote to each MLA asking for names to an advisory body to our program and we got many names from many opposition MLAs, government MLAs and so on. So there are quite a few - several hundr ed as a matter of fact - people on this advisory body. Mainly they've been busy in their own local area. MR. D. GOURLAY: How · many emplo yment projects were actually approved through this program? HON. L. EYANS: The grants, we had $500,000 available initially and then we suppleme nted it somewhat.

That money was not meant to hire people. it was meant to provide seed mone y to some young people's organization to do something special in IVY year, so it wasn't meant to be an employment program. I would say the general rule is that the monies didn't go to hire somebody but went towards, say, the purchasing of equipm ent or materials to allow the young people to have an event and so on. In some instances, if there was need for some sort of ongoing co-ordination, there may be a few instances where a young person got a Careerstart grant, but that's under a different program.

There was no IVY money per se for employment. I don't want to leave the impr ession that we're just involved in IVY as a government effort . We put some money up, but our intent was to get as many of the young people of Manitoba involved doing their own thing throughout the province, to activate them and get them interested in doing various activities. Indeed, many community groups have put up money to help the young people in their area do whatever they felt was fitting from that area. MR. D. GOURLAY: So the money is all expended in that program, is it? Are you still entertaining applications for projects? HON.

L. EYANS: There is still some money lett. The last round of applications are now being received , up until the end of August. We are receiving applications from groups till the end of August. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes , would the Min ister have any idea how many applications are received on this program and how many were approved ? Would it be possible to be suppl ied - not necessarily here tod ay, but at some time - with a list of activities throughout the province under this program? HON. L. EYANS: Ye s, we'll endeavour . to give you a list. We can give you a list. We 'll try to get you that information.

What you want is a list of some of the activities that are going on around the province under the program. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s. HON. L. EYANS: We' ll give you a list. That's related to our grants. I have to repeat , there are many activities that are going on that we've encou raged that have no grant money from the government, because we're not saying everyt hing that happens has to have a government grant, in fact, we're trying to get as many people active without any government money, but we'll certainly give you a list of those groups that have received grants. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Specifically, I had received an enquiry from National Mills, the Community of National Mills and they said that they had been turned down with respect to their application under this International Ye ar of the Youth project and I'm just wondering . . . HON. L. EYANS: The applications valued far in excess of the amount of money that we had and we had to make some decisions as to where to priorize and where to put the money, and it's always difficult. We wanted to ensure that what we were doing was helping a young group do something that normally wouldn't be done.

There's no point in just giving a grant to an organization that's going to have their regular annual fe stival or whatever it is and nothing different is happening. What we wanted to do was to give it to some organizations of young people who do some thing special because of it being IVY . We've had 432 applications to date and thus far we've approved 15 8, for a total of $530,000.00. The applications are vetted by a committee of young people. There's a committee of 20-25 young people drawn from various parts of the province who go over the applications and then make recommendations to me for approval.

They use various criteria. I'm not aware of this particular application that the member refers to. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Can the Min ister tell us how many young people formed the initial group, the founding committee of the Youth Ye ar? HON. L. EYANS: There are two committees. There's what's called the Manitoba Organizing Committee, 22 people, and in addition to that, at the same time we set up this advisory body of between 400 and 500 2679

Wedneaday, 5 June, 1185 people throughout the province and then they went on and did their own thing in their own community. We don't really have any record; some of these people have gone out and formed organizations, just to carry on a special function, we don't have those records so there are really two committees. As I said, the second one had four to five hundred people. MRS. C. OLESON: How many staff does the department have to administer the Youth Year program? HON. L. EVANS: These are temporary staff, we have a temporary staff of 14 people including field co ordi nators.

We felt that it was important to have people In the area to assist the young people, some of them haven't had much experience, some of the groups are rather new with a lot of young, enthusiastic people, so half of that staff would be field co-ordinators. MRS. C. OLESON: Did the Minister's department pay for the cost of the newsletter that was put out by the group? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. There's a newsletter that's put out from time to time, Mr. Chairman. We pay for the cost of the material, and the labour is on a voluntary basis. They do their own thing. MRS. C.

OLESON: Have you a breakdown on what it costs to put out the newsletter? HON. L EVANS: Between $500 and $1 ,000 per issue depending on the number of copies. MRS. C. OLESON: And how much was in the budget of this department for the regional meetings that were held for the year? I understand the founding committee held regional meetings to get the thing under way. HON. L. EVANS: We don't have a breakdown for that. The budget provided for operating expenditures; we don't have a specific number on the expenditure for that purpose, but at the conclusion of the year we'll have a number. MRS. C.

OLESON: The Minister recently put out a press release which outlined some of the programs which had been authorized and funded under this program. Were any of the projects that were set up going to require ongoing funding? Were they starting something new that will have to be asking for grants later on next year and the years following? HON. L. EVANS: There's no commitment on the part of the government for any ongoing funding of any of these projects.

In fact, that was the criterion that was used and it was explained to the organization that this was a one-time grant from us and that we had - (Interjection) - they can appear under some other guise and maybe be eligible under some other program, I don't know, but we have no commitment beyond the one-time grant. MRS. C. OLESON: In looking over the list of programs that were funded, it occurred to me that a lot of them, the organizations are already government funded organizations.

Would this be for something specific that they were doing that they don't normally - a program they don't normally have within their organization, because I can see several that are already government funded organizations in the first place. HON. L.

EVANS: A fundamental criterion was that the organization had to do something special and unique for IVY and although some of these organizations may have been funded under different government, federal, provincial programs, nevertheless they had to convince our committee of young people who are vetting these applications that this was something very special and in keeping with the theme of IVY. MRS. C. OLESON: I'm just wondering, when I see some of the amounts, I'd like to know a little bit about some of the programs and how they would differ from something that doesn't normally occur within that organization.

There's one here that -Youth Elder Conference at the Ma-Mow-We-Tak Centre, which is, I think at Thompson, If I'm not mistaken, for $6,000.00. Has the Minister any Information on what actually these programs included? HON. L. EVANS: On the applic ation form the organization had to describe what they were doing. One of the jobs of the field co-ordinator Is to sit down, touch base with the organization and to go over the application to assure ourselves that this was something in keeping with the spirit and the objective of IVY. MRS. C.

OLESON: There's one here called Get Together'85, Main Street Revitalization, $5,600.00. Has the Minister or his staff any idea what took place at that -Is that part of the Main Street Manitoba Program or is it totally new? - (Interjection) - it doesn't say here - but there are lots of Main Streets in Manitoba. HON. L. EVANS: lt's actually at the corner of Selkirk and Powers. This group of young people in that neighbourhood are putting up a stage and they're going to be putting on different concerts and performances throughout the summer months. lt's probably near Main Street. - (Interjection) - Malinowski Park.

MR S. C. OLESON: There's one here that's the September weekend festival for $2 1 ,500 that sounds to me like quite a good weekend. I wonder, could the Minister explain that one? HON. L EVANS: That, indeed is the biggest and probably the most elaborate. This is organized by a very large youth organization of French-Canadian young people and it virtually involves the collection of young Franco-Manitobans, I think they purport to represent all of them and it's a week long -it's not a weekend - a week Jong series of events. I think they're going to take over half the City of St.

Boniface or something and be putting up tents and various stages. I believe they've been planning this event for a year and they have, I'm advised, money from other sources as well. I think the Federal Government has been funding them and maybe some communitY organizations as well. lt's quite an elaborate thing. 2680

Wedneaday, 5 June, 1985 lt's a street fest ival sort of thing and it's going to involve thousands of young people. MRS. C. OLESON: Well, would some of the funds involved be used for bringing in entertainers? Would that be part of the $21 ,000.00? HON. L. EVANS: lt could be that some of the money might be used for entertainers, but most of it is for equipment rental, the putting up of stages and that sort of thing. MRS. C. OLESON: Would that this all be done by volunteers or does any of that money include salaries for people that are putting on the festival? HON. L.

EVANS: In keeping with the criteria of the program, none of the money is for salaries. I might add that any of the talent the organizations would get would normally -and I think in this case it's true -be local Manitoba talent. MRS. C. OLESON: In looking over the various information that has come to me over the year for this program, it certainly does, as the Minis ter just referred , point out the immense imagination and creat ivity of young people.

There are all kinds of programs here. lt did concern me when I saw them, that perhaps they were going to be setting up something that would be requiring funding and there'd have to be another program set up to take care of it another year; but as the Mini ster assures me these are one-time grants, then perhaps that funding is just going to be for this year. I would be very surprised if the some of those same groups don't come to the Minister next year to say that was such a great idea we'd like to do it again, so it'll be a continuing thing. For Instance, I see some grants given for career days and so forth.

Do not most of the school divisions already put on career days? HON. L EVANS: Perhaps they do. If you could give me the specific project, we could tell you what that career days means. Where is that? MRS. C. OLESON: Sorry, I can't see it at the moment; I remember seeing it before. You got me; I can't find it now. There's one here, Pine Creek Student Council. I don't know whether that was a career day or not, but I remember see ing one here. HON. L.

EVANS: Ye s, the staff advise me that there are about th ree career days projects scattered throughout here and all of them are doing something quite special, over and above what would normally be done by a school or some other community group. I was at the Town of Mlnnedosa with the MLA, Mr. Blake -and I'll just give you one example -that involves a large num ber of high school students and they're engaged in a beach front clean-up In the little lake right in the Town of Minnedosa and everyt hing from painting benches to cleaning up the weeds and generally cleaning up.

They're quite enthusiastic. lt's a small amount of money and that money Is used for paint and a little bit of equipment they need and that sort of thing, grass seed and so on, so it's quite an enthusiastic bunch of young people in the Town of Minn edosa from the high school. I think they're going to do some tree planting there and so on. I just might mention, I think, the Town of Carberry is in the member's own constit ue ncy. The NCCE Recreat ion District, Carberry, received a grant of $1 ,500 for a youth centre.

Just for your information, this is a drop-in centre and the grant is for some mi nor renovations and a little bit of money to assist with other resources that the centre needs; so what we're doing is, hopeful ly, upgrading a youth facility located in the Town of Carber ry. MRS. C. OLESON: In a press release of December 14, 1984, in some of the suggestions put forward, it says, "Volunteer Work with Seniors." Were there any applications that were accepted for work with seniors? HON. L.

EVANS: lt turns out there were some applications submitted, but we wer en't able to approve any of them because every one of them had an Implication for ongoing salary costs. lt's very difficult sometimes, once you get a service going, let's say, for seniors In a community, to all of a sudden withdraw it at the end of the summer or some thing. MRS. C. OLESON: This was my concern with some of these programs, that it's nice to see them set up, but who Is going to pick up the pieces afterwards?

I noticed also In that same press release of December 14 th, it said that grants of $100 to $1 2,000 will be available for youth activities. Some of them exceeded that amount. Did they have to prove something really extra to get above the $12, 000.00? HON. L. EV ANS: There were just a very few In that category and there were some exceptional circumstances. They were usually quite a large project, such as the one I mentioned for St. Boniface. lt's a very big project so, percentagewlse, it's probably could be a relatively small percentage of the money that we're contributing to the entire project.

Just for the information of the members, there were only two above that liml.t. If you take all of the 158, divide that into the amount provided, the average grant comes to $3,363.32. MRS. C. OLESON: The newsletter that was put out that I enqu ired about before, was it completely done by the young people themselves? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s. MRS. C.

OLESON: lt was drawn to my attention once or twice, particularly by a young person - I don't know whether he was part of the group - but he did receive the newsletter and was rather concerned that it included material that he felt was -well, I'll maybe use the word -government propaganda He didn't use it that strongly, but he felt that the newsletter was being used by the department as a further way to criticize federal government programs, for instance, and aggrandize provincial ones. I tended to have to agree with him in one particular case. 2681

Wedneaday, 5 June, 1985 So, if the Minister assures me that it was strictly the young people that were doing this newsletter, I guess they must have chosen to do that and probably interviewed the Minister. I notice on the back page of this same one - this was the March edition - it says that the views expressed here do not necessarily represent the views of the Manitoba Government, and yet the Minister is quoted In lt, so I'm wondering how that worked. HON. L. EVANS: I don't write this; I see it after it's prepared , and I get a copy like the honourable member.

Maybe the member is talking about two articles here: one, "A Few Tips for the Unemplo yed ." MRS. C. OLESON: Ye s, I had some criticism over that one, too. HON. L. EVANS: And "Challenge'85". The first one was done by a volunteer interviewing Victor Swartzman, who is the Director of the Community Unemployed Help Centre. The one on "Challenge'85" apparently was taken from a press release, but that's their decision. As I said, I see these after they've been prepared.

We have, on occasion, included Inserts on information about employment programs such as the Youth Job Centres, but we think that that's useful information. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: When was the first brochure sent out and who was it distributed to, on the IVY? HON. L EVANS: The original brochure was distributed, I bel ieve, In December of last year, and it was dissemina ted very widely; the idea being to make the province aware, young and old aware that IVY was coming up. This is the pamphlet, yes. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wonder if the Minister could be a bit more specific.

Very widely can cover a pretty broad range. Was it sent out on postal walks? Was it sent to youth groups? Just exactly, where was it sent? HON. L. EVANS: Well, it was sent to schools, to identified youth groups, to community organizations, libraries. lt was sent to people and organizations that we thought would be interested In this and might respond. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The first stage, I think - was the grant money distri buted in three stages? The first grant money, I understand, was to be completed, at least the applications were to be approved was it by the end of January? HON. L. EVANS: January 26th.

January 26th was the deadline for applications for the first round. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How much money was allocated and spent in the first grouping? HON. L. EVANS: Well, the amount of money available Initially was $500,000, but the first round involved an expenditure of $18 0,607 for 32 projects. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are the 32 projects listed In the press release? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, they were listed In the first press release. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I noticed that there was $400 for a walking tour of St. Bonlface and I just can't help wondering what the needs were there. HON. L.

EVANS: Was that this first round? MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm not sure if it's the first round or not. lt was attached to the May 24th press release probably. HON. L. EVANS: Do you know what page it was on? MRS. G. HAMMOND: lt was In the release with the large - just a minute, bottom of Page 2. The top one was "Bridging the Gap" summer conference. HON. L. EVANS: This historical society of St. Boniface is getting young people involved, volunteers and so on, In organizing as many young people as possible to become aware of some of the historical sites In the City of St. Boniface.

This will take place, or Is taking place, or will take place this summer. I unde rstand it's a continuing tour all summer long, so I guess they're trying to Identify young people who would take groups of people through St. Bonlface and look at historical sites. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I understand that part, I just wondering where will they be using the $400.00? What do they need that money for? HON. L. EVANS: it was used for promotional purposes to get the young people aware. To adver tise, this Is what we like to do and various materials and promotional activities. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: The first brochure that you held up, did you Indicate earlier the cost of that brochure and the cost of the distribution? HON. L. EVANS: No, I didn't. That would have been last fiscal year's expenditure, so we'll take it as notice and try to get that information. We don't have it here. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Was it seven facilitators that were hired? Where did these people come from? What was the background and how were they hired? HON. L. EVANS: We had different criteria. First of all, they're all term posit ions, temporary positions, because these jobs will disappear when the year is over.

We looked for young people who were not currently employed and, Indeed, the people that we did hire were among unem ployed young people. We had a Civil Service type of panel put together to conduct Interviews of the applicants. We had a broad list of prospective employees from various organizations. Apparently, the department contacted a number of organizations and names were put forward and there were interviews and 2882

w.dneldiJ, 5 June, 1185 they were selec ted. You're looking for someone who is pretty good at organizing and explaining things and so on. Quite often they're un iversity students, maybe they finished their B.A. and they may be going back to university or maybe they're in the middle of their program. I know the one in the West man area is In that category; very, very well qualified young man who Is very active in the Brandon Students' Union as well. Most of them have talents in organization and explaining and so on. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: There was one here now - I can't find it - and it just comes to mind when I was looking through the list, the Selkirk Youth Radio. Is that the group that there's a bit of controversy over, that they wanted to do a program and the school vetoed it? I'm just wondering who has the override here, the International Ye ar of the Youth Committee or the school? HON. L. EVANS: I'm not aware of the difficulties the member is talking about, but the staff tell me the answer is, yes, it's that group.

My understanding is it's a group of high school students from the Lord Selkirk Regional Secondary School and the school has some sort of a program in communic at ions and they'v e got arrangements with the local FM station and the youth put on a program. I think our money went towards buying some equipment so that they could better do their interviews and so on. I'm advised that the high school itself supported the application of the young people.

I'm advised too they had some problems just with one program. lt seemed to be worthy of support and I think people are generally enthusiastic about that program. lt's rather unique. I think it's the only one that we have in the province where young people are able to actually broadcast over a radio station and the radio station , of course, has been co-operative In making time available for those young people. MRS. G. HAMMOND: it's on Page 2 of the May 24th press release. 1t Is the students of Selkirk Regional Secondary School producing a radio show on a local radio station.

I'm just wondering If the cont roversy was around that. I think it was the citizenship council, if I'm not mistaken, doing an in-depth study of some of the . problems they were having. I don't know if it was the intercultural council through the grants that they were having - not In the lntercultural okay , I stand corrected - well some of these grants. What I'm wondering If that was the particular program that they were funded for, If that particular . . . HON. L.

EVANS: My understanding is the money from our grant was to purchase equipment that would be used throughout the year by the young people, like tape-record ing equipment and that sort of thing that would enable them to do interviews and to prepare their programs of broadcast quali ty. We'r e not funding the production of a program per se. We're facilitating an activity by the young people supported by the high school and with the co-operation of the radio station. We 're facilitating it by providing money that enables them to get this equipment that apparently produces better sound quali ty. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: The students, are they still doing the programming outside of that particular program that got scrapped? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, I don't know what program the honourable member is talking about per se. I didn't hear this controversy but at any rate, they are continuing on. We don't control their programming. I don't think government should be Involved in that. We wouldn't want to look at that.

Most of the programming is about youth Issues, employment problems, drugs, the crises that youth go through and they're trying to disseminate information to the young people and helping them cope with stress and so on. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just wanted to be assured that they were still going to be able to carry on with the programming outside of this one issue then. HON. L. EVANS: I think they are, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)( 1) - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: The Min ister mentioned the purchase of equipment In this case and In one or two others. What happens to the equipm ent when the project is over?

Does the equipm ent rev ert, in the Selkirk case, to the school or the radio station? In the case of the St. Boniface Festival, what happens to all this equipment afte rwards? HON. L. EVANS: In this Instance, the school will own the equipment and will keep it. MRS. C. OLESON: Is one of the things that's Included in the program when it's approved, what becomes of any equipment that is purchased through the program? HON. L. EVANS: I don't think there's that much in the way of purchasing equipment; a lot of the equipment Is rented. Sound equipment might be rented in St.

Bonlface for the week, so there's no question of ownership. There are some cases where the young people have actually used it to buy material such as In Carberry and, of course, they would keep that as part of their drop-in centre. MRS. C. OLESON: Who had the final approval or disappr oval of these projects, the Mi nister or a committee? HON. L. EVANS: The committee recommended to the Min ister , who In turn, went to a Cabinet committee for final approval. But normally we accepted the recommendations of the young people. MRS. C.

OLESON: Continuing with the youth here, the Youth Business Start is an offshoot of this same project, is it not? HON. L. EVANS: That's a totally separate program and it's funded to the amount of $400,000.00. This Is a pilot project. We're attempting to assist young people get started in their own business with a small grant, actually 2683

Wedneaday, 5 June, 1985 $4,000, but along with providing the grant money, there are requirements for the young person to take some courses in various business- and management-oriented fields and they have to get an experienced person to act as sort of an ongoing counsellor to them. We, in turn, provide some assistance from the federal CASE program. The Federal Business Dev elopment Bank have a program of consulting. We provide so many hours of that and there's techni cal advice given by the Manitoba Depar tment of Business De velopment.

What I'm sa ying is the biggest help I think we can give those young people is the technical help and the information; helping them do their marketing and assi sting and giving them guidance and so on. But it is a grant of $4,000.00. Two people per business could get together and obtain $8,000.00. The decisions and recom mendations - the final approval has to be from government because we'r e responsible for the money, but the recom mendations are from an advisory board, who screen the applications and discuss with the young people.

The problem is that In any new business, there's always a hig h risk, particularly small busi ness, whether it's young people or old people, there's a very high risk. I guess it's not a profound observat ion. But we want to assure, as much as possi ble, that we're not lea ding the young person astray by saying, here's some money, go out and take a chance. We want to very, very sure that there is a demand for the services they're providing or a market for the goods they're producing.

So we try to check this out and make sure that the person has a fair idea of what they're getting into and has some understa nding, some ability. We have to have evidence that this young person has a better than 50-50 chance with the business. Having said that, I'm sure there will probably be some that will fail in spite of every body's best efforts and best intentions, because you never can tell what the market will do, for example. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Minis ter, how many jobs were created under this program? HON. L.

EVANS: By which? MR. D. MALINOWSKI: By that youth program. HON. L. EVANS: By the Youth Business Start or do you mean Careerstart ? MR. D. MALINOWSKI: The program, the whole thing, the career and the . . HON. L. EVANS: Well, there are various programs. There's the Careerstart Program which ranges between 5,000 and 6,000, that's for the summer; then we have the Manitoba Jobs in Training Program. There are young people being hired under that. We put an additional $3 million into that this year. A large number of young people are hired there. I had mentioned between 5,00 0 and 6, 000 for Careerstart.

There's an estimated 900 under the Manitoba Jobs in Training Program; 520 under the Northern Youth Core. There's 900 under the STEP program, Students Te mporary Employment Program; 1, 200 under other government employment programs, direct employment; 520 under the Northern Youth Core; 33 under the Northern Summer Education; and of course we provide some money that helps a number of young people be emplo yed by the youth job centres. So we're looking at about approximately 10,000 jobs. These are summer jobs. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: And how much money is involved In that program? HON. L.

EVANS: All those programs that I mentioned, nearly $15 million, and that's just for the summer. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: This is only summer? HON. L. EVANS: And I'll tell you, categorically, and I tell that to the Member for Elmwood, whom I overhea rd, there would be thousands of kids without a job today if we didn't put that $15 million on the table, no question about it. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Okay, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. If I could get back to the new Busi ness Start Program.

The Minister mentioned - and it was in information he sent out, that there would be courses offered to these young people. How long were the courses that were given to instruct people on business methods, and what all did the courses Include? HON. L. EVAN

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-4-63
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 4th hansardpdf 63.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	15bcd4fc7d7e7463cfd541042e643f001ce464bf

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