Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 19 (37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-19

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session • Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No.19 -1:30 p.m., Wednesday,Apri125, 2001

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG. Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, lion. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Ross mere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

77 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, Apri1 25, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of L. Kraus, Kathy Dueck, Eugene Uhryniuk and others, praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba re quest that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Selin ger) consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and SOOkV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed} Will the Clerk please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St.

Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a 500kV and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particular childhood leukemia, to the proxi mity of power lines. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITI ONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and SOOkV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flood Conditions Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): I have a statement. Mr.

Speaker, as Minister responsible for EMO, I would like to provide the House with an update on the flooding situation. Weather conditions across Manitoba are contributing to a favourable flood forecast. The Red River has risen less than a quarter of a foot since April 24. The crest of the Red River is expected to reach Winnipeg floodway by this weekend and is not expected to cause any emergent situations. The level of the Assiniboine River is expected to increase as a result of diversions and this will lead to the Assiniboine River approach ing the same levels we saw in the Red River over the Easter weekend.

The crest of the Assiniboine River is expected to reach the Griswold and Virden areas by the end of the week and the Brandon area over the course of the weekend. Dikes constructed in 19 95 in the Sioux Valley First Nation should protect homes in that community from the Assiniboine River, as the expected level of the Assiniboine is three feet less than 19 95. * (13: 35) Elsewhere, levels of the Souris, Whitemud and Pembina rivers remain stable and are gradu ally falling.

Areas in the Interla ke are still encountering difficulties with overland flooding, but this is expected to subside unless more preci pitation is encountered.

772 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 Water levels in the Riding Mountain and Duck Mountain areas have started to rise as a result of spring melting. While this will raise river levels in the Dauphin and Swan River region, it is not expected to threaten any com munities in the Parklands. Mr. Spea ker, I am particularly pleased to report that the flooding has been managed to an extent where closing Highway 75 does not ap pear to be necessary. Seven municipal govern ments have declared a local state of emergency and 17 have passed resolutions requesting dis aster assistance.

Staff from Manitoba EMO have been in contact with Emergency Preparedness Canada, and I will continue to update the House as we develop a better understanding of the ex tent and costs of the flood-related damages. There are clearly non-insurable losses over a wide area as a result of flooding this spring, and I am hopeful that the federal government will recognize this event as eligible for the level of financial assistance consistent with other similar events. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the minister for his statement to the House.

We are pleased that the reports on a daily basis are showing that the extent of the flood has been downgraded almost on a daily basis, which is very good news for Manitobans. There have been some hot spots in the province where water has created problems for individuals, but in large those situations have been brought under control.

I note that the minister makes reference in his statement that there were clearly non-insur able losses over a wide area as a result of flooding this spring, and he is hopeful that the federal government will recognize this event as eligible for a level of financial assistance consis tent with other events. I would just bring to the minister's attention that in terms of the agreement with the federal government, of course there is an agreement be tween the municipal, provincial and the federal government, and that is almost an automatic type of formula that kicks in with the level of compensation.

I also hope that the Province, if it is a 75-25 cost sharing, will be in there for their share as well. I leave that with the minister and we are always happy to see that the situation is getting better every day. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Imm igration): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to table the following report: The Appeal Commission and Medical Review Panel Annual Report for The Workers Compensation Act of Manitoba for the Year 2000, and the 200 1 -2002 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Mani toba Labour and Imm igration. Hon.

MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industr y, Trade and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 200 1-2002 Supple mentary Estimates for Legislative Review for the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to table the March, 2001 Annual Report of the Office of the Provincial Auditor with respect to Complia nce and Special Audits. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us from the Maples Coll egiate 15 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mrs. Roberta Garton. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for The Maples (Mr. Aglugub). Also seated in the gallery we have from Linden Christian School 22 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Mark Glor. This school is located in the constituency of the hon ourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen).

Also seated in the public gallery we have from the Applied Linguistics English as a Second Language under the direction of Mrs. Ruth Kl ippenstein. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk). On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you here today.

April 25, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 773 * (13 :40) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System NDP Election Promises Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Oppositio n): Mr. Speaker, during the '99 elec tion campaign the then-Leader of the Official Opposition said, and I quote: If it means having diagnostic operating equipment a couple of hours a day more to make sure that people are not going to the United States, then we do it. If it means having our nurses rehired to have the beds we have already paid for staffed rather than having people in the hallways, then we do it.

His campaign message was clear, although somewhat questionable. He was going to end hallway medicine in six months and $15 million. In his own words, Mr. Speaker: We are not going to promise anything we cannot deliver. The latest government statistics show that more patients are in the hospital today than in 19 99. In light of the Premier's own words, can the Premier explain why he has not delivered on his own promise? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I believe the member opposite said there are more patients in hospitals today than there were ever before. Certainly there have been significant improve ments.

The number of nurses now trained is double that of the previous government. The number of doctors in the Faculty of Medicine is significantly improved, particularly for rural Manitoba, something that was talked about a lot by members opposite but forgotten in govern ment. The diagnostic equipment is ordered. There are a couple of challenges. We did replace CAT scans at the Victoria Hospital and the Seven Oaks Hospital, and we have other equipment ordered for other parts of Manitoba, including outside of the Perimeter Highway.

Unlike mem bers opposite, we did not promise seven times to do the Brandon Hospital renovations and cancel it seven times. The $52 mill ion is in place, and the public of Manitoba know we are working very hard to rebuild the health care system for the devastation they received in the last 11 years. Recruitment/Retention Strategy Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Oppositio n): Again the Premier has no credibil ity because he is wrong. Statistics show that there are 20 percent more people in the hallways on average than this time last year.

The Premier's nurse task force is now three and a half months overdue. Burnout is taking its toll and posing threats to patients. I quote from an article: Nurses demand protection while at work. Nurses at Winnipeg's Seven Oaks General Hospital say abusive patients have created dangerous working conditions. Glen Stobbe, who represents nurses at Seven Oaks in the Manitoba Nurses' Union, says nurses have been pushing for a safer workplace since late 1999; that is when a patient threatened to shoot a nurse.

He says: Three serious incidents occurred shortly after, inclu ding the assault of a triage nurse by an unco operative patient. In light of this, Mr. Speaker, and considering the Manitoba Nurses' Union has been demanding the Premier's nursing task force be released because, quote, it is critical to solving some of the problems facing nurses, why, when the Premier has had this report sitting on his desk since April 9, has he not made it public and acted on its recommendations? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The report will be released shortly. It was not prepared by a U.S . consultant. It did not cost $4 mill ion.

It will not result in firing a thousand nurses like members opposite. Members opposite have no credibility on this issue, Mr. Speaker. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne' s 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, let me make it perfectly clear. We did a reorganization; we did not lay off 10 00 nurses. It is this NDP government who fired 350 VO Ns.

Maybe it is because they did not consider

774 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 those VONs nurses, but we did, and they fired them. *(1 3:45) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, clearly that was no point of order. That was a disruption; that was an interruption. The Opposition House Leader was attempting to engage in debate. That clearly is not the reason for a point of order. Disputes on the fact, as well, do not form the basis of a point of order. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, very clearly on this issue and many others, the Premier has no credibility. The nursing shortage has doubled. Waiting lists are longer, and more patients lie in the hallway. Mr. Speaker, I refer to another

article that states: Burnout wracks nurses, poses threats to patients. I go on to quote: "There were 17 patients piled up in the ER hallway Sunday, said Sheila Holden, forcing medical award staff under a policy known as Code Purple-to dis charge as many patients as possible to make room for newcomers. "It's a painful task for nurses. Many patients are told to go home-against their will-because there aren't enough nurses to care for them, she said.

Health Sciences Centre has become so congested that some patients who would have been admitted to hospitals five years ago are turned away because they are not sick enough to get a bed, she said." Mr. Speaker, nurses are saying that patients are being discharged against their will, patients who would have been admitted to hospitals, be cause they are not sick enough. I ask the Premier to explain: Is this the Doer government's new policy? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. For inf ormation and clarification of the House, the Manitoba practice has always been the leaders are allowed latitude.

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, if you would have opened the doors, he would have skated to Vancouver on that question. It is hard to know which part of that rambling, bambling question I should answer, Mr. Speaker. It is serious in health care. We have met directly with Mr. Glen Stobbe and listened to his concern about health care and nurses. I can assure the member opposite, con sistent with one of the questions he asked in those hundred questions that he raised, that we did not hire an American consultant. We did not pay her $4 mil lion. We do not have a report to recommend firing a thousand nurses.

We have three nurses from Manitoba recommending ways in which the regional- * (1 3:50) Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Beauchesne' s 417 : Answers should not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, I understand that there is leaders' latitude, but it does not give this leader permission to misuse the rules and to put misinformation on the record. We did not fire a thousand nurses. We reorganized. They fired 350 VONs who they do not believe are nurses. Mr. Speaker: Order.

May I remind all honourable members that a point of order is a very serious matter, and I would ask the co operation of all honourable membe rs when dealing with a point of order.

April 25, 200 I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 775 The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, this is just a replay. As I see it, the rules say if a point of order is mere interruption the Speaker will rule it out, and that is all it was. It was an interruption to interrupt the important message of the Premier (Mr. Doer). I also note, with all respect to the custom in this House of latitude for the leaders, Beauchesne' s 409 says a long

preamble and a long question takes an unfair share of time and provokes the same sort of reply. Of course, I do not think we had just a

preamble on that question. There was, I think, a reciting of some text, some text books or something in there. I do not know what it was, but that was not a point of order; unfortunately, it was an interruption. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader. I have to rule it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Doer: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, the report that we have commissioned with nurses is prepared by nurses from Manitoba.

I want to assure the members opposite it will not recommend the firing of a thousand nurses that was contained in the Curran report that Manitoba taxpayers paid $4 mil lion to have submitted to this Legislature. The report is presently being printed. It will be out shortly. Just today we announced another positive measure with the bridging of our foreign doctors to provide medical services to the people of Manitoba. Every day we repair, rebuild and re work our health care system for the benefit of our Manitoba citizens.

We will not rest until our health care system is in the shape that we feel Manitobans are entitled to, and we are working very hard to do that. Health Care System Code Purple Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Nurses report that this past weekend there were 17 patients in the hallway at St. Boniface Hospital. At this point in time or some point in time, a policy called Code Purple kicks in whereby nurses have to chase through the medi cal ward to tell people they can no longer stay. People who are ill are sent home. Against their will, they are sent home. I would ask the Premier (Mr.

Doer): Would he acknowledge that this is a policy to satisfy the political agenda of this Government and is not good medicine? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I want to acknowledge the work of all of the nurses and doctors in hospitals in Mani toba, because the Canadian Institute of Health information indicated that Manitoba had done the best job of dealing with hallway medicine of every jurisdiction in the country. In fact, the Ontario government recently adopted the entire Manitoba program to deal with hallway medi cine. Further to that, Mr.

Speaker, the last 18 months that members opposite were in office, there was not a day over the year that there were not less than five people in the hallway. We have improved it by 75 percent and 80 percent. At any given time, there are-[interjection} But people are not spending weeks and days and months in the hallway. They are in. They are dealt with. We work at it every single day, and we will compare our record of 18 months to their entire record anytime. * (13 :55) Mr. Gilleshammer: In a desperate attempt to improve their numbers, they have imposed this Code Purple on hospitals. I would ask the Premier (Mr.

Doer), who often talks about what a novel idea he has, is this one of his novel ideas? Is this good medicine or is this political expediency? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, members opposite demonstrate their ignorance of the health care system, something that they did when they were in government. They do not understand what the purpose of Code Purple is. They do not under stand that some hospitals, when they achieve certain levels, will shift services to other

776 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 hospitals. It is too bad they have not learned any thing in 18 months in opposition. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne' s 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. Mr. Spea ker, clearly this question was about whether or not it was the policy of this Government to have Code Purple policies within the hospitals. Maybe they should just change it to code orange, and let the people of Manitoba know it is their policy. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, this is rather disap pointing, because we have had earlier already this afternoon two interruptions. This is the third on an answer that was entirely within the rules. The minister was simply explaining that the Opposition did not understand, had its facts wrong, as to what constitutes a Code Purple. But I also want to note, Mr. Speaker, that the rule book, our old rule book, says that wilful disobedience to the rules and obstructions are breaches of privileges.

The consistent, consistent breach of rules can constitute a breach of privi lege. I wonder if you might just want to remind members opposite that this is Question Period. It is a time for give and take. It is not a time for interruption in the answers. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Official Opposition House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all hon ourable min isters that according to Beauchesne's Citation 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible. deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate.

I would also like to take the opportunity to remind all honourable members, when rising on a point of order, just a reminder to all members, a point of order should not be used to ask a ques tion, to dispute the accuracy of facts, to clarify remarks which have been misquoted or misunderstood, to move a motion, to raise a point of order on a point of order. So I would ask for the co-operation of all honourable members. *** Mr. Gille shammer: I am surprised at the Premier's (Mr.

Doer) rel uctance to talk about Code Purple, a policy that he has put into place whereby sick people are uprooted from their beds and sent out of the hospital so that they can improve their numbers as far as their promise on hallway medicine is concerned. They are send ing sick people home by ambulance. They are turning ambulances away. Will the Premier (Mr. Doer) put an end to this policy- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Spea ker, that was a doozy.

That was a supplementary ques tion, I understand, and supplem entary questions require no

preamble. I think the member was going on with two or three sentences as a pre amble to, I guess, try and get around the em barrassment without understanding what Code Purple is. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, I have never seen the word "doozy" in Beauschene's. Just to clarify, for your information, Mr. Sp eaker, it does get very disruptive when min isters are very provocative within their answers and when they pose questions within their an swers.

Our members on this side of the House will answer them. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all members that Beauchesne's Citation 409(2)

April 25, 2001 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 777 advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble . * * * Mr. Speaker: Will the honourable member put your question please? * (14:00) Mr. Gillesh ammer: Thank you. Would the Premier (Mr. Doer) take a leader ship role on this issue, acknowledge that patients are suffering, put an end to this Code Purple which exists in our hospitals so that he puts patient care before a policy that is failing? Mr. Chomiak: I do not know what they are trying to do. This Opposition is attacking the integrity of doctors. They have attacked the in tegrity of regional health authorities. They attack the integrity of nurses. They attack the integrity of teachers.

They attack the integrity of the for mer Deputy Minister. Mr. Speaker, we make decisions every day based on the best advice given to us by the medical practitioners. We have been recognized in the country as having done the best job in hallway medicine. We are training double the number of nurses that were trained when the members opposite cancelled and cut the nursing programs. We put in place a task force to report by nurses on nurses' programs, Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, let me make it as simple as possible, seeing as I have been advised by yourself that we should quote Beauschene's. It is Beauschene 's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. Mr. Spea ker, you heard the question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): The member opposite, I think, has been trying to get some exercise on his legs today, Mr. Speaker. I have never seen so many interruptions. The Opposition loves the sound of their questions.

They cannot stand the sound of the answers, unfortunately, because it is the truth. Mr. Spea ker, that is not a point of order. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader (Mr. Laurendeau), he does have a point of order. Beauschene 's Citation 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Speaker: I would ask the honourable Minister of Health to please answer the question. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, reflecting on the member's comments about the provisions in emergency rooms across the system, we have taken our advice from the practitioners in the system, the nurses, the doctors that are involved in the system, not from American consultants that are paid $4 million to give them advice to fire 100 000 nurses. Pan Am Clinic Purchase-Asset Value Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): Over the past number of days, members on this side of the House repeatedly in Question Period and in the debate on the Budget have demonstrated to this Government that they could have spent much more wisely and effectively, especially in areas as they relate to health. The Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) a few days ago told the House that in buying the Pan Am Clinic his Govern ment paid $4 mill ion for the building, the equip ment and the operating rooms.

Can the Minister of Health tell the House today what the break down in value was of the purchases that he told the House he made, that being the building, the equipment and the operating rooms of the Pan Am Clinic. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, when the documents are finalized and the agreement is signed that information will be provided to this House, as I indicated earlier. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Speaker, why can the minister not tell Manitobans? All we are seeking is some information with regard to how much he

778 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 paid for the building. I think Manitobans deserve to know how much this minister paid for the building. How much did he pay for the operating rooms, and how much did he pay for the equip ment that he said made up the areas of purchase ofthe Pan Am Clinic of$4 mill ion? Mr. Chom iak: Mr. Speaker, at the time of the announcement when we said there was an agreement in principle, I said all that informa tion, the breakdowns, would be made public as soon as the agreement is signed, which will be very shortly. Mr. Derkach : Mr.

Spea ker, I would like to ask the minister why then he made an announcement that said they bought the Pan Am Clinic for $4 milli on if he does not know how much he paid for the building, how much he paid for the operating rooms and how much he paid for the equipment. I ask the minister again. It is not a difficult question. Tell Manitobans how much you paid for the building, the equipment and the operating rooms. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, it is not a difficult answer for the member.

As I indicated at the time, when the agreement was reached in princi ple, unlike members opposite, unlike frozen food, unlike SmartHealth, we were not going to hide information from the public. We indicated when we reached the agreement in principle we would provide that information to the House. We are very close to doing that. We will not hide it from the public as members did with Smart Health. We will provide it up front and to the public. Pan Am Clinic Purchase-Asset Value Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Spea ker, I have recently seen the year-end financial statements, dated December 31, 2000, for the Pan Am surgical centre and those state ments show the book value of the equipment and ORs to be $662,000. Could the Minister of Health tell us if, out of the $4 mil lion, he also bought other equipment that might be in that building? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Spea ker, I think the member opposite should be very careful with her numbers. She was the one who went around and said the Deputy Health Minister was getting $250 milli on when in fact she was wrong.

The member opposite ought to be very careful with her numbers, as I indicated. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I will be brief. Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. I only ask the minister to listen to the question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for River Heights, on the same point of order. Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): On the same point of order, I think that the minister may have got carried away when he said the Deputy Minister got $250 milli on. Maybe he would like to correct it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Yes. Mr. Spea ker, for the sixth time, I think we are up on a point of order from members op posite. My point, I think that the member does not have a point of order. I was simply pointing out to the Member for Charleswood (Mrs.

Dried ger) that she has been so wrong in her facts so often that she ought to be careful in providing infor mation. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 417 : Answers to questions

April 25, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 779 should deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Chom iak: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. What we indicated at the press conference of entering into an agr� ement in principle with the Pan Am Cli nic, I indicated at that time and I indicate to the members of the House, unlike the boon doggles entered into by members opposite, like SmartHealth and the frozen food, we will pro vide that information to the House very shortly. * (14:10) Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, because the minister did not answer my question, I would like to ask it again.

Could he tell us if he bought other equipment in the building? As we do know that $662,000 appears to be the valued equipment and the ORs of the Pan Am surgical centre, has he bought other equipment in the same building? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated at the press conference with respect to the Pan Am centre, we will provide all of that information. We are doing our due diligence, which I think is something that is in order to ensure that this agreement meets all of the financial tests neces sary. I think members opposite will be very pl easantly surprised when that information is provided. Mrs.

Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health: Are we buying more assets than that of the Pan Am surgical centre? Rather than shooting the messenger, I hope there can be some transparency in this, and I hope that they have already done their due dili gence. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I should indicate to the member opposite, at the time we indicated we were buying the Pan Am surgical centres, we were buying the Pan Am facility, and that we would be launching an initiative with respect to expanding service and providing service to Manitobans.

I indicated at the time that we would provide all of the information, all of the financial data for members in the House, and that will be provided very shortly when we table it in this House. Pan Am Clinic Purch ase-Debts and Liabilities Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. The minister may want to put off providing this information, but this deal is going on now. We know that the minister has announced that the purchase price is $4 mill ion. We have infor mation that the value of the assets and operating rooms for the surgical centre are $662,000.

We checked with the City Assessment Department, and they tell us that the value of the building is just a little over $1 milli on. So when we do our due diligence, we come to a total of $1.7 mil lion as the value of what the minister said we bought. I want to ask him today: What composes the remaining $2.3 mil lion of public money that he spent? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Members opposite will be provided with the information as I indicated at the time. We do not need to take advice from members who spent $30 million on SmartHealth for no asset- Mr. Speaker: Order.

The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): I will be brief, Mr. Speaker. Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and definitely should not provoke debate. I listened to the question. I only hope the minis ter did. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Members opposite cannot attempt to answer questions and every time the answer is not the way they believe an answer should be, question

780 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 whether or not that is in fact dealing with the question. Mr. Speaker, if they would listen to the whole answer they might learn something. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne Citation 417: Answers to questions should be brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr.

Chomiak: We will provide all of the financial information with respect to the Pan Am purchase when that agreement is finalized, and that information will be provided to members opposite very shortly. Mr. Praznik: The minister talks about transparency, and I agree that is important. I want to ask the minister again: Given that as a matter of public record the building is worth $1 milli on, given that we have information the equipment is worth just under $700,000, can he explain to us-we are asking him, we are giving him a chance today-what composes the other $2.3 mill ion of the purchase price he an nounced?

We want to know. Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated, when that agreement is finalized we will provide that information for the members and to the public. Mr. Praznik: I ask the minister: Given, I am sure, the concerns he has about conflict, with the Premier's (Mr. Doer) relationship with the owners, would he not now before this deal is finalized justify it to the taxpayers of Manitoba whose money it is? Where is the other $2.3 mil lion, Mr. Minister? Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Several weeks ago on an issue similar to this, members opposite stood up and said the budget at St.

Boniface Hospital was going to cut hip and knee replacements. They were wrong then. They were wrong about the deputy minister's salary. They are wrong about this, Mr. Spea ker, and we will provide that infor mation. Point of Order Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): I cite Beauchesne 41 7 that talks about answers being brief and not provoking debate. We have asked a very simple question. Based on information that has been brought to our attention, there is a $2.3 milli on shortfall in the value of what is being purchased. We are giving the minister the oppor tunity to explain it.

If he has an explanation, pro vide it. Do not provoke debate by talking about irrelevant issues. Mr. Speaker: The Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, in terms of the minister dealing with the matter raised, indeed he did exactly that. He pointed out to the House and to Manitobans that the Opposition was asking a question based on wrong assumptions. As in the past, there is a pattern of being wrong. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised, I would like to remind all honourable ministers, once again, according to Beauchesne's Citation 41 7: Answers to questions should be brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Spea ker, the independent appraisals, as well as the analysis of the facility, valued that facility at $4 milli on. We will table that information- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomi ak: -when the deal is finalized. Foot and Mouth Disease Provincial Action Plan Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Sp eaker, yesterday I asked the Minister of Agriculture about the provincial action plan in relation to foot and mouth disease. I was very disappointed in the minister's reply to my ques tion about man ifests legally required in Mani-

April 25, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 78 1 toba for transporting animals susceptible to this disorder. Her reply: she suggested she was not even aware of this issue. I will repeat my question from yesterday to give the minister another chance. Will the Minister, as part of her action plan for foot and mouth disease, bring Manitoba up to the existing standards set in Saskatchewan and Alberta and indicate today that she expects all Manitobans to follow her Government's laws mandating that all transport of livestock in Manitoba be covered by a manifest? * (14: 20) Hon.

Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Spea ker, the member raised this issue yesterday and he also raised it in a meeting when he came to a briefing in my department. I indicated to him and advised the department that I still feel this is a serious issue, and that they are looking at how this can be implemented. I want to tell the member that the manifest and the requirements that are in place are to deal with the security between buyer and seller. It was put in place to deal with tracing of animals to ensure that the individual who was transporting the animals actually owned the animals.

This was not put in place to deal with diseases. I want to te ll the member also that the department is looking at the issue that he raised. I also want to tell him that the Canadian Cattle Identification Association is also looking at how the tagging program that is being introduced in Canada can be used for tracking of diseases as well. Mr. Gerrard: Will the minister not admit that in fact she is not on top of this issue? She is not enf orcing her own legislation even to begin with and she is not at this point requiring that there be a central registry to make it easier to track the movements of animals.

In short, she does not have a provincial action plan that would place this province in a good position if there were an epidemic of foot and mouth disease. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Spea ker, the legislation that the member refers to and the manifest that he refers to is in place in Manitoba. It is used but there is not an enforcement system in place. Since the legislation was brought in there has not been an enforcement policy put in place. There are no inspectors in this area. I have advised the member that I have asked the department to look at how a central registry could be in place and whether or not this will help.

What the member has to also remember is that we do not have an outbreak of foot and mouth disease in Canada, and that we have to look also at ensuring and foll owing the steps to ensure we do not get foot and mouth disease in Canada. Mr. Gerrard: My supplem entary to the minister. I ask the minister: Given the tremen dous importance of being able to trace animal movement if there were a foot and mouth dis ease outbreak, when will she have a system in place? When will she address the lax standards that she has set in not even enf orcing or recom mending that people follow her own rules?

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Spea ker, I want to te ll the member that there is a system in place where there is a manifest or a bill of lading that moves with animals here in Manitoba. There is not an inspector system in place to follow through with it. It was looked at by the previous admin istration. The previous administration looked at a branding system. The livestock industry, the cattle producers were not in support of that.

With respect to the issue of a central registry, I have indicated to the member, and my department indicated to the member, when he was there, that they are looking at the system. When the department has developed a position on it, I will report it to the member. South Eastman Regional Health Authori ty Funding Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): Mr. Sp eaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak). Further to the questions that were asked previously in the House this week in regard to the del ivery of health care services in southeast Manitoba, could the Minister of Health provide

782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 an update to the members of this House in regard to the discussions between his department and the South Eastman Regional Health Authority regarding the increases in their operating bud gets? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Sp eaker, as I indicated in the House, when members opposite were being alarmist in terms of raising the information they raised, we were provided with a letter. A letter was provided to me outlining from the South Eastman some of their concerns regarding budget, not recommen dations, but concerns that they have.

Immedi ately upon receiving the letter, we set up a meeting with that region, and we are discussing with them. They put out a press release today saying that they are very pleased with that. The fact is both that region and the head of Brandon, Manitoba, indicated on the radio this morning that the cuts took place years earlier, and in the last two years, they have been very pleased with what we have done in trying to make up for the terrible cuts that took place under the Conservative government. Brandon Mental Health Centre Redevelopment Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Sp eaker, last summer, the Doer government reached an agreement with the City of Brandon to transfer ownership of the Brandon Mental Health Centre to the city. I understand that, under those terms, the City of Brandon will receive in excess of a mill ion dollars in opera ting costs. I want to ask the minister responsible: Has this agreement been compl eted and signed? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): I am pleased to answer the question about the initiative we have taken to work with Brandon and provide a real asset to Westman in the form of BMHC, which now can be redeveloped for community purposes. In fact, the details are being finalized. There have been some negotiations between the city and R.M. in the area, which I am sure the member is aware of. Those negotiations have been proceeding, Mr. Speaker. In fact, we hope very soon to see BMHC redeveloped to benefit everybody in Brandon and Westman. Mr. Tweed: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the minister and I ask: Could he give us a time frame or a date when this agreement will be signed? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Sp eaker, I appreciate the interest of the member opposite. I can provide the member opposite with regular updates as it proceeds. Obviously, there are still some items that have been discussed this recent last couple of weeks, but I will keep the member posted, both in this House and, given his obvious interest in this matter, if he wishes, regular brief ings on what is happening. We are very proud to share what we are doing with BMHC. It is going to be a real asset for Westman.

Pelican Lake Centre Redevelopment Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Spea ker, I appreciate the answer from the minister. It is the people of Brandon that are asking these questions. I would ask the minister then: Will the minister assure the community of Ninette, with the closing of their Pelican Lake Centre, that the community will be given the same consideration, opportunity and support that the Province is now offering to the city of Brandon? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr. Ashton: Mr. Sp eaker, we are very inter ested in using government facilities.

BMHC is a classic case where in this case the City of Brandon took the initiative. I want to give credit to City Council for having had the foresight to deal with that. We certainly are open, whenever we have any surplus facilities, to proposals from local communities and other groups, and I would cer tainly be prepared as minister to discuss any interests on behalf of Ninette or other people in

April 25, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 783 the area about redevelopment. We are very inter ested in putting those facilities to good use. Point of Order Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, just on a point of order, and I would like to just table the request from the R.M. of Strathcona for the minister to do exactly that. Mr. Speaker: Order. On a point of order raised by the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), it is not a point of order, but thanks for the information. Vehicle Registration Fee Increase Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, the Doer government recently introduced another back-door tax to the people of Manitoba when they increased the motor vehicle regis tration by 21 percent to raise $8 mil lion more for provincial coffers. I ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Sel inger): What other tax increases are waiting in the wings as a surprise to Mani tobans? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, as the first government since the Second World War to reduce the general rate of corporate taxation, as the Government that has reduced small business taxes by 37.5 percent starting next year, as the Government that has increased the threshold on small business taxation from $200,000 to $300,000, as the Government that has reduced personal income taxes by 1 0.5 percent, I can assure you that we are making taxes more affordable in Manitoba. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne' s 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. He might want to check with his seatmate. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the Opposition may feel provoked by the answer, but you cannot get up on . a point of order simply because of such feelings. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader (Mr.

Laurendeau), it is not a point of order; it is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Seli nger), if you would please conclude. Mr. Selinger: I will wait for the supplem entary question without the

preamble . Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the minister's generosity. I would ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selin ger): Did he make the decision to raise this tax 21 percent after the Budget when he realized that it was the only tax in Manitoba left that was lower than taxes in Alber ta and Ontario? Is that what caused him to raise the tax? * (1 4:30) Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased to be able to give some comparisons.

We have a lower gas tax than Ontario and Saskatchewan, and the adjustments in the licence plate fee bring us, by the way, to the same level as Saskatchewan and we are still $20 a year lower than Ontari o. I am proud to say we are putting the money back into our highway system where we have increased maintenance by $1 1 mill ion since we came to government. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House.

784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 During Oral Questions on Wednesday, April 18 , 200 1, I took under advisement a point of order raised by the Official Opposition House Leader regarding the use of the word "scur rilous" by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Sel inger) in response to a question asked by the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler). The Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) also spoke to the same point of order. I took the matter under advisement in order to peruse Hansard and to consult the procedural authorities.

The word "scurrilous" has been the subject of intervention by Speakers four times in the last 17 years. On April 11 , 19 85, Mr. Speaker W aiding ruled that the word was inappropriate for use in the Assembly and ruled that the word was unparliamentary. On March 24, 19 98, Madam Speaker Dacquay ruled that the words "scurrilous accusations" were unparliamentary and requested the withdrawal of the word "scur rilous." Simi larly, on May 27, 19 98, Madam Sp eaker Dacquay again ruled the words "scurrilous accusations" out of order, and re quested a withdrawal of the words.

On May 27, 19 99, the then-Minister of Justice, the then Member for Rossmere, voluntarily withdrew the words "scurrilous accusations" when a point of order was raised. Based on these rulings from former Mani toba Speakers, I am ruling that the use of the word "scurrilous" is unparliamentary, and I would ask the honourable Minister of Finance to withdraw that word. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Sp eaker, I unconditionally withdraw the use of that word in the House. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Health Care System-Commitment Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turt le Mountain): Mr.

Sp eaker, today I rise to express my condolence for the breakdown of a marriage we have witnessed right here in our Chamber. At the be ginning of a marriage, there are sweet words spoken about the joy and strength of the partner ship, how unshakeable the commitment is and will be in the future. During the '99 election, Manitobans witnessed a relationship blossom between the Doer government and its commitment to end hallway medicine within six months. Members opposite whispered pillow talk about this commitment, the strength of their attachment to it and how good it would be forever after.

Unfortunately, like a hungover Las Vegas new lywed the Doer government woke up the morn ing after the election and was horrified to see what it had done. In the rush down the election aisle, the members opposite had failed to consider the consequences of their action. When the sweet talk was all over, the reality sunk in that this was a commitment they just could not keep. As with many failed marriages, the Doer government attached to its six-month com mitment has grown weak. There have been num erous attempts to distance themselves from the words they spoke just prior to the big night.

In a sense, this Government is trying desperately to annul any relationship it may have had with its six-month promise. Mr. Spea ker, one in three marriages end in divorce. Unfortunately for Manitobans, the Doer government's relationship with their election commitments is su ffering the same fate. The marriage between the Doer government and the hallway medicine commitment has ended sourly. The Doer government has left the bride of all election commitments as nothing more than a one-night stand. Friendship Force Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): Mr.

Sp eaker, it is a great opportunity for me to rise today and speak about an organization that is very impor tant in Manitoba. The Friendship Force is a pri vate, non-profit organization active in over 65 countries. Its purpose is to bring people closer together through international exchanges of citizen ambassadors and to sow the seeds of friendship across the barriers, both physical and cultural, that divide us all. The primary goal of the Friendship Force is to promote peace throughout the world. The Friendship Force of Manitoba was chartered in October 19 97 and currently has a membership of over 70 people.

To date,

April 25, 200 I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 785 Manitoba members have travelled as ambas sadors to New Zealand, Georgia, North Carolina and Japan. They have hosted clubs from New Zealand, England, Montana, Iowa and Costa Rica. This year the Manitoba organization will send 25 ambassadors to England, and we will host here in Manitoba two exchanges, one from Texas and one from Mexico. Recently I had the pleasure of attending one of the Manitoba

chapter meetings in my constituency. I wanted to take this opportunity today to congratulate the Manitoba Friendship Force

chapter on their work on behalf of Manitobans. Thank you to the board of directors and committee members for their hard work behind the scenes. Because of their commitment and dedication, the ideals of Friendship Force are kept at the forefront and exchanges amongst people of different nations and cultures promotes a climate of diversity and tol erance throughout the world. Allan Penner Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to pay tribute to yet another resident of my constituency who has been honoured for outstanding achievement. Re cently Mr.

Al lan Penner, vice-president of Penner International Trucking in Stein bach was announced as the recipient of the 200 I Trialsmobile Service to the Industry Award presented by the Manitoba Trucking Associ ation. Mr. Spea ker, Penner International is one of Manitoba's most successful long-haul trucking businesses and today employs more than 650 people in a variety of occupations. The success of the company is in large part due to the 30 years of service Mr. Penner has dedicated to the operation.

He began working on the dock load ing trucks and has worked his way to his current position, helping establish the Stei nbach operation and regional terminals in Canada and the United States. In addition to being the Manitoba Trucking Association past president, he has served on the association safety committee, licensing committee, human re sources committee, scholarship committee and workers compensation committee. Mr.

Penner is yet another example of the type of community-minded business people we have in the Steinbach constituency who work hard and take the risks needed to build a better region and province. The growth of Penner International, particularly over the past decade, is an example of what can be achieved by busi ness people who are able to use their entrepre neurial skills in a competitive economy. In this the International Year of the Volunteer, Alla n Penner is also an example of the benefits that are achieved when individuals give back to their communities and to the indus tries that they represent.

On behalf of all the members of this House, the residents of my constituency and many staff of Penner Interna tional, I would like to con gratulate Al lan Penner on this well-des erved re cognition and wish him continued success. Tax Relief for Busin esses-Budget Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to draw attention of the House to the meaningful tax relief this Govern ment has proposed for businesses in the 200 I Budget. The 200 I Budget proposes to lower the corporate tax rates for the first time in Manitoba since the Second World War.

In January 2002 the corporate tax will fall from I7 percent to 16. 5 percent and will continue to fall by .5 percent per year until it reaches 15 percent in the year 2005. These corporate tax cuts will stimulate investment and save Manitoba busi nesses $46.4 million when fully implemented. Today our small business tax rate is 6 percent, and we have announced in the last year's Budget that rate will fall again to 5 percent in the year 2002. The 2002 Budget also proposes to increase the small business threshhold from $200,000 of taxable income to a new rate of $300,000.

The businesses affected by the change in the small business threshhold will see their tax rates drop from 17 percent to 5 percent in the year 2002 and will realize savings of $1 9.2 mil lion at the time of full implementation. To help Manitoba microbreweries, we are proposing that the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission reduce its markup to 9I percent of

786 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 the regular markup, saving these microbreweries $1 50,000 a year. The tax cuts for businesses proposed in this Budget will help to foster the economic growth Manitoba needs to remain competitive today and into the future. * (14: 40) Veterans' Association- Taxation Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I rise to speak briefly on the situation with veterans' associations and The Municipal Assessment Act. As a recent editorial in the Free Press indicated, there is, and I quote, a confusion as to whether legions have paid fair levels of taxation for the past 30 years.

There are a variety of reasons for this. What is clear is that going back to 19 47, the Dauphin Legion had an exemption from pro perty tax. That legislation, in retrospect, was poor legislation in not treating all veterans' associations equally and fairly. Good legislation should treat people with fairness and with justice. I have over the past two or three months visited with people in many veterans' associ ations, legions, veterans' halls in Thompson, The Pas, Brandon, Portage and elsewhere. People in the veterans' associations would like to be treated fairly. They would like to be treated equally.

They would like to have what is ap propriate. the exemption which was provided to Dauphin provided equitably all over this pro vince rather than the confusing situation which exists right now. The veterans have for many years contributed to our province and our country in major ways. It is time to treat them fairly and equitably. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Seli nger) in his recent Budget had a chance to do this. The Minister of Finance had a chance to end the con fusion as to whether legions have paid their fair levels oftaxation for the past 30 years. He failed to do this.

This Government should stand up and do its duty instead offailing and failing. ORDERS OF THE DA Y House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I wish to obtain the unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence for consideration of Estimates, as outlined in the sessional paper 11 3 tabled on April 23, by setting aside on April 26, that is tomorrow, the Estimates of the Department of Finance in Room 255 to consider instead the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines. That is to apply only to tomorrow, Mr. Spea ker. Mr.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence for consideration of Estimates, as outlined in sessional paper 11 3 tabled on April 23, 200 I, by setting aside on April 26 the Estimates of the Department of Finance in Room 255 to consider the Estimates of the Department oflndustry, Trade and Mines? This change is to apply for April 26 only. Is there agreement? [Agreed} Mr. Mackintosh: Would you canvass the House to determine if there is leave to adjourn today at 5 p.m.? Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement to adjourn today at 5 p.m.? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Mr. Lemieux), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ABORIGINAL AND NORTHERN AFFAIRS Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Com mittee of Supply will be considering the Esti mates of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. Does the honourable Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs have an opening statement? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): I am ple ased to present

April 25, 200 I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 787 the 200 I -2002 Estimates of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. As minister of this department, I am proud to report that we have made some significant progress over the past year. We are determined to improve living conditions and opportunities for the people of northern Manitoba, improvements to trans portation, infrastructure, health care and educa tional opportunities are happening across northern Manitoba.

We have developed partner ships and co-operative approaches with com munities, Aboriginal organizations, government departments and agencies, other levels of government and non-government bodies. Our Government is committed to working government to government with First Nations and other Aboriginal people across Manitoba. One priority is the North American Indigenous Games, which Manitoba will be hosting next year. With an estimated 7000 athletes and I6 sports visiting our city and province, Tourism Winnipeg has estimated that $60 mil lion will be the spin-off from the games.

This summer the Manitoba Indigenous Games are also taking place in Cross Lake. Next year, Manitoba will be hosting the Aboriginal Achievement Awards, a national celebration, which will broadcast across Canada and on na tionwide television on the CBC. The Aboriginal Justice Impl ementation Commission has made important progress over the past year. The AJIC recommendation on Child and Family Services is now being imple mented. Earlier today, as members will know, there was an important announcement regarding this important agreement with First Nations agen cies.

First Nations and Metis representatives are members of working groups that are involved in designing and developing plans for mandated Aboriginal Child and Family Services that will be implem ented and managed by First Nations and Metis authorities. * (15: 00) Other recommendations of the AJIC have been accepted and are in various stages of imple mentation. Next month I would like to say as well that I will be the co-chair of the Federal/ Provincial Territorial Forum of Ministers and National Leaders, and the topic will be Abori ginal participation in the economy.

It is expected to be a major item on the agenda of the FPT A meeting on May I 0 and II in Winnipeg. I fully expect that this meeting will help illuminate the way toward new initiatives and will help us refine and improve our focus on increased Aboriginal participation in Manitoba's economy. We have been active in a number of areas to increase Aboriginal emplo yment in the private and public sectors.

On December I1 , 2000, we signed an agre ement with the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority to promote the recruitment, employment and retention of Aboriginal people in all levels of employme nt with the WRHA and IS O employer groups that they represent. Earlier today an agreement with AMC and the WRHA was signed to further develop this initiative based on the earlier agreement that our province made with the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority.

A stakeholders circle has been established with representation from govern ments, employ ers, unions and Aboriginal organi zations to provide direction and monitoring for this initiative. We are proposing to use the WRHA process to develop a model for an Aboriginal employment strategy for Manitoba. Our department is a champion of the Aboriginal Human Resource Development Council of Canada. Earlier this month I was pleased to participate with the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce regarding their Aboriginal employ ment initiative, a very promising and positive pro-gram.

We anticipate that the first Aboriginal casino, as well, will be opened within the calendar year 2001. I would like to report that during the past year we made steady progress with our Grand Rapids Forebay: Chemawawin/Mosakahiken settlement negotiations, agreements in principle which provide a framework for future negoti ations between Manitoba, Manitoba Hydro and the Mosakahiken Cree Nation and the com munity of Moose Lake. The Chemawawin First Nation and the community of Easterville were completed last year.

An AlP has also been signed with Fox Lake First Nation and Manitoba Hydro regarding past hydro development.

788 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 A memorandum of understanding signed with the Island Lake Tribal Council, Health Canada and Manitoba Health provides an op portunity for the First Nation to work with the two levels of government to address their im mediate and long-term health concerns and needs. Last December, I issued a ministerial statement on the Northern Flood Agreement, and we are working with all NF A bands on the issue of resolving the NF A.

With regard to the Northern Flood Agreement and the Cross Lake First Nation, there are currently six Northern Flood Agreement land exchange sites being surveyed, an additional seven sites ready to survey in 200 1 -2002. These will be the first Cross Lake lands to be transferred under the 19 77 Northern Flood Agreement. Last year, in our first Budget, we restored to the Aboriginal organizations core funding which was elim inated previously.

The new Budget builds on that commitment and we are pleased to be working in partnership with Manitoba's 11 friendship centres, the Manitoba Metis Federa tion, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, the Manitoba Keewa tinowi Okim akanak and the Southern Chiefs Orga nization on a variety of im portant issues. On March 2, 200 1, I was part of a historic signing agreement in principle with the federal Minister of India n Affairs and Chief Ken Whitecloud of the Sioux Valley Dakota Nation to set in motion the establishment of self-govern ment for the Dakota people of Sioux Valley.

This is the first such agreement in Manitoba and the first agreement for a single First Nation com munity in Canada. The agreement sets the stage for the negotiation of a final agreement by Canada, Manitoba and Sioux Valley. We are pleased with the AlP , with the Split Lake First Nation regarding future hydro developme nt, and we are encouraged with pro gress with the Nelson House First Nation over potential development in their territory.

Last session, Bill 28 gave Aboriginal Northern Affairs communities some of the same responsi bil ities as other Manitoba communities and ensured more responsibility at the local level for making decisions. The departmental self-reliance review of last year is now being acted upon in a number of areas. Departmental efforts related to local government development have been and continue to be focused in six main areas. Firstly, communication, and that means consultation with community representatives and stake holders. Secondly, improving develop mental re sources available to communities.

Thirdly, the development of strategic partnerships with other service providers, and fourth, saf e environments. Fifth, maintenance and renewal of infrastructure, and of course, making provisions for new infrastructures. Consultations with communities led to a number of changes to funding and support for community development. We increased funding directed at training at the last Northern Association of Community Councils annual gen eral meeting.

Funding was allocated for work shops and seminars related to specific areas of development such as capital planning, inventory management, preventative maintenance, water chlorination and management planning. Reflec tive of the growing responsibility and increased demands on community leaders, we have in creased the per diem allowance for community representatives. We have renewed support for small communities, including infrastructure de velopment. Continuing efforts to transfer author ity and control to local government to the greatest extent possible is driving discussions with several communities.

Wabowden, Cross Lake and Camperville are contemplating the benefits of incorporation. The department I am responsible for is also currently consulting with community representa tives and residents regarding a review and re drafting of The Northern Affairs Act. The current act that we operate under has been in existence since 19 88. It has not been compre hensively reviewed since that date. At regional meetings a workbook and survey was developed.

This is an important opportunity to identify legislative issues that impact local government and for residents to participate directly with their comments and ideas in shaping the legislation that affects how they are governed. Meetings have been held at Selkirk and Winnipeg, Dauphin last week, in The Pas on Monday and at Thompson yesterday. One of the

April 25, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 789 most important issues raised so far was a comment that communities do not want to wait until they are incorporated before they can operate their own businesses. Public input into their review wiii continue. We have also undertaken a major reorganization of the local government develop ment division to realign resources in an effort to better serve communities' developmental needs. Significant changes include opening a new of fice in The Pas with two staff, staff positions assigned specifically to protective services, fire, constable and emergency planning.

Two staff are also being dedicated to addressing environmen tal matters, a second recreation and wellness consultant with a renewed emphasis on wellness and community health and addition of a second professional engineer. We are also moving in the creation of a resource development function to assist and support communities with the identification and development of economic opportunities. We have implemented an internal initiative that has resulted in five of our six most recent new employees being of Aboriginal ancestry.

These individuals bring technical qualifications and backgrounds that will strengthen and enhance our local government development efforts. Also providing resource material appropriate to com munity developme nt needs remains high on our list of priorities. The production of a management series directed to community leaders and staff saw several publications last year. I will provide those to the critic at the earliest opportunity after I conclude my remarks, Mr. Chairman. First of all, The Elections Officials Handbook, Running for Council, Community Management Plan Development, Managing Your Own Affairs.

Additional publications in developme nt include topics like capital projects del ivery, recreation programs development and del ivery, financial management, and supervision and management of human resources. Others will be added to this list as the need is identified. We continue to promote and develop strategic partnerships with other departments and agencies serving our jurisdiction. We look for ward to strengthening the partnerships we have established and to creating opportunities for new partnerships to evolve.

We are appreciative of the good working relationships between our selves and other departments such as Inter governmental Affairs on round tables, economic development, land use planning and community development and planning, and also being a Rural Forum partner.

We are also grateful to the Department of Culture, Heritage and Tourism, Recreation and Wellness branch, providing recreation and well ness programs and workshops to northern com munities, we believe that this is very important as well; to the Department of Labour, the Office of the Fire Commissioner, on firefighting and fire prevention programs; Family Services, in come security, building on the independence program; Conservation on their water treatment study program; and a saf e environment and the health of community residents are always of primary importance.

Our monitoring pilot project for sewage treatment facilities in six remote communities has been introduced to identify and correct plan problems, to provide additional ongoing training to operators, to de velop and implement preventative schedules and to provide toll-free backup for process and operational problems at Pine Dock, Matheson Island, II ford, Thicket Portage, South Indian Lake and Gods Lake Narrows. In partnership with the Department of Conservation, the Manitoba Water Stewardship Order Department initiated a comprehensive assessment of water treatm ent facilities, opera tors and processes.

We have undertaken a study in anticipation of higher drinking water stand ards, to ensure the maintenance of public health and safety, and to facilitate long-term infra structure planning. Funding for our capital program has increased by $750,000 to $3.2 milli on, which will be directed to a variety of approved projects related to the provision of sewer, water and waste disposal facilities, road upgrades, fire protection and other municipal infrastructure. * (15: 10 ) I am also pleased to say a few words on progress regarding the Communities Economic

790 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 Development Fund. The Development Fund continues to work with and support small business in northern Manitoba by providing business advice and loans. Business loans acti vity increased this year by 25 percent over last year. During the last year the fund advanced loans of over $4.1 mil lion to the commercial fishing industry in the province of Manitoba. The Tolko shutdown is one factor of declined forestry loan activity. The fund will continue to work with contractors, the launch of the micro-enterprise program team has been very successful.

There are functioning teams in eight communities, at South Indian Lake, Pikwitonei, Moose Lake, Wabowden, Sherridon, Easterville, Norway House and Churchill. Many of the 38 businesses involved have not required loans, with just six loans totalling less than $20,000 being lent so far. The Aboriginal Economic and Resource Development Fund established last year is lever aging funding from other sources, including the federal government in support of Aboriginal priorities such as the Indigenous Games, Teen Talk, the ARDC Champions, and other employ ment development initiatives.

We are working hard toward our objective of bringing new focus to the future development of northern Manitoba. We are also committed to bringing about a new era of trust and partnership with Aboriginal people throughout Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson, just by way of concluding my opening remarks, allow me to thank you for this opportunity to speak today about some of the goals and important initiatives of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. Mr. Chai rperson: We thank the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs for those comments.

Did the Official Opposition critic, the honourable Member for Morris, have any opening comments? Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): I thank the minister for his opening remarks and the variety of comments with respect to the programs that his department is carrying out. I guess it is also appropriate to notice that the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs is rather a small department compared with a lot of other departments, having a total budget expenditure line of about $24.6 mill ion.

Yet, with regard to the responsibility of the department, it is an enormous task because of the wide geographic area that the department is responsible for, as well as having the numbers of communities that are spread out across the North. So it is an enormous task for the department. I would like to just make a com ment, having been a former bureaucrat myself and a civil servant, that without the dedication and support of staff in the department a lot of programs cannot be carried out.

So I think it is always appropriate, I do not care where you are in government and what party, the dedication in staff is always appreciated to making all of the Government programs work. I also note, too, Mr. Chairman, that the department, though small relative to other departments, has numerous agreements with other departments in terms of shared responsi bilities in del ivering programs, and so it aug ments the size of the department a fair amount with regard to the types of services that are del ivered to the North.

I congratulate the minister on the fact that the Indigenous Games will be here in Manitoba next summer. I do want to at this time also pay tribute to a former coll eague of mine, Mr. David Newman, who was the minister prior, who was a very strong, strong champion for Aboriginal affairs. It was his tenacity, I belie ve, that ori ginally brought the concept of the Indigenous Games to Manitoba and the initial funding for the games. I am also very pleased to hear that the National Aboriginal Achievement Awards will be hosted in Manitoba. I believe this is the first time-[ interjection] second time.

It is great to have that event here in Manitoba, because it is a chance for Aboriginals in Manitoba to greet the rest of the country and to also help communicate the Aboriginal achievements to the rest of Canadians. I am also pleased to hear that the minister will be co-chairing the ministerial conference with regard to Aboriginal partici pation in the economy, very timely, very impor tant, and I guess my hope would be is that as a result of that conference that a fairly active, I

April 25, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 791 guess, action-oriented strategy develop from that conference with the view of putting it into place very quickly. In terms of the Estimates process today, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to for the record indicate to the minister and his staff that my intention is to be able to finish up the Estimates process for the department today, so that people can get back to their jobs and do what they are supposed to be doing.

I also note that the numbers of Aboriginals that are emplo yed in Manitoba is increasing, always increasing, and that is a very good sign, but not only govern ments were the first to lead the way with regard to hiring and training and employing Abori ginals. I am happy that the private sector is starting to participate, as well, and I guess a very good example of that is Maple Leaf out of Brandon.

I guess through the Estimates session, we will be asking the minister about the Northern Flood Agreements in terms of the status ofthose agreements, in terms of the Treaty Land Entitle ment and the outstanding claims under TLE. also asking in terms of updates and status about Aboriginal self-government with regard to Sioux Valley and perhaps some other First Nations, as well as updating on The Northern Affairs Act and the review of that act and the progress that is being made. So, Mr. Chairman, I think that the best way to really start the process is to start to ask questions. So those are my remarks. Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic from the Official Opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line . Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff present. Mr. Robinson: All ow me to introduce members of the staff. The Deputy Minister of the department is Mr. Oliver Boulette.

Next to him is Marilyn Duval, Executive Director of the Local Government Developme nt Division in Thompson; and Mr. Harry Bostrom, Execntive Director of the Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat; Mr. Gagnon, the Director of Finance based out of Thompson. We also have other members of the staff, Ken Agar who is with the northern flood matters; Mr. Joe Morrisseau from the Aboriginal Affairs Secre tariat; and Mr. Gord Wakeling, the General Manager ofCEDF. * (1 5:20) Al low me to table for the honourable Member for Morris (Mr.

Pitura) the consultation workbook on The Northern Affairs Act, Running for Council, part of a community management series put out by our department; Managing Your Own Affairs, part of the community management series issued by our department; Community Management Development Plan Development, part of the management series issued by our department; The Consultation on Local Government Development in the Year 2000; The Community Self-Reliance Initiative. Another publication from our department is The Treaty Land Entitlement: History in the Making, A Process for Partnership on Economic Development Opportunities.

I am sure that my colleague will find these interesting. As well, we have the Annual Report of the CEDF 2000. Mr. Chai rperson: We thank the minister for those introductions and for handing out that information. We will now proceed to line 1. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Executive (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $624,200, on page 23 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Excuse me, I will repeat what I just said. We will now proceed to line l.(

b) Executive Support (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $624,200, on page 23 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Mr. Pitura: I just wanted to ask the minister, I know that he has introduced a number of his staff here, could he indicate the names of his special assistant and executive assistant, for my information? Mr. Robinson: My special assistant is not in the room here today. Her name is Daneen Cook, and

792 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 currently the position of executive assistant is vacant. Mr. Pitura: I do not have my main budget book here. I got caught on this last year, as well, because I do not know where we are in the book, but I believe one copy is coming up for me. I guess, Mr. Chairman, with regard to this line, most of my questions are within the program areas within the Estimates book, so I am prepared to pass this line. Mr. Chairperson : Line l. (b)

(1) Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Executive (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $624,2 00-pas s;

(2) Other Expenditures $240,800 -pass. Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairman, just prior to discussing the Estimates, I had some discussion with the minister, and I believe we had agreed that we would just field the questions, not particularly line by line, but I am prepared at the end to pass all the lines at once. If I can have that latitude to ask questions, then I think it will make the process go a little better. Mr. Chairperson : I will just ask the committee.

Is it agreed to have a global discussion on these issues instead of passing line by line? [Agreed} So we will just have a global discussion, and at the end we will pass line by line. Mr. Pitura: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the minister for his co operation. So what I would like to bridge first with the minister is the review of The Northern Affairs Act. I was wondering if he could update me as to the progress to date on that act. * (1 5:30) Mr.

Robinson: I proba bly did not have an opportunity to talk with my coll eague from Morris, but currently we have a review going on, as I indicated in my opening remarks, in several Manitoba communities. Mr. Roger Dennis, a former civil servant with the Intergovernmental Affairs Department, has been leading this off for us in addition to some existing staff members we have from the department. Four meetings have been held involving all communities, and it has been soliciting the views of the communities in volved and also the public. What we anticipate is a paper to be devel oped by late May.

We are going to call that a white paper. Focus groups are also going to be held in the month of May. A final report is due in September 2001, and certainly I will be in dis cussion with my collea gue from Morris. I do anticipate that legislation will be required in the fall of 2002 to conform and to catch up with the act itself. As I indicated in my opening remarks, it has not been reviewed since 19 88. Mr. Pitura: I just ask the minister, through you, Mr.

Chair, is it the intention of the department, with regard to this review of the act, to basically repeal the existing act and substitute a new piece of legislation or to totally revamp the existing legislation? Mr. Robinson: The current act itself has been around since 19 72. It was founded on the principles of municipal board legislation at that time, and a few amendments have been made since of a housekeeping nature. We have to allow the communities to catch up with the remainder of the province.

The act provides specific authority for the minister and incor porated communities, and unincorporated areas, the councils or committees, rather than duplicate service in legislation. The act refers to provisions ofThe Municipal Act of 19 88. Now, in 1996, The Municipal Act was rewritten and enacted and The Municipal Act of 19 88 continues in effect only for Northern Affairs communities to the extent that specific provisions have been referenced. The effect of this to Northern Affairs communities is that they are operating on an old form of the legislation that is not being used by Nor thern Affairs.

A further compli cation is municipal services sup port from other departments is provided to Northern Affairs based on a new legislation with some confusing results. So what we are doing is allowing the northern communities and Northern Affairs community members to have some input into where they would like to have some changes reflected in our review and recommend to Government where they feel there should be some necessary changes. There are some that are

April 25, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 793 restricted, particularly in the area of people wanting to develop in business. Therefore, we are wanting to bring that up to date. Another matter I may raise with my coll eague, Mr. Chairperson, is a range of issues that may arise through this consultation and review process. To a certain extent, we have heard some of these through the team that has been travelling the province and engaging in this dialogue with Northern Affairs community members.

They include: a consideration of re source management concerns; the eff ect of voting rights as a result of Bill C-3 1 compared to current residency based on voting rights for municipal purposes; the need for development of some new forms of local governance for small population areas; and more local control over some municipal services even though a com munity may not be incorporated. So once the completion of the current consultation process has occurred, a report will be submitted to our Government, and, of course, I will consult with my coll eague from Morris on this.

We may need to revamp the act itself if the consultation feedback that we are receiving leads that way. Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I believe last year the minister brought forward amendments to The Northern Affairs Act, and I believe the reason was to make the act compatible with the changes that had occurred in The Municipal Affairs Act. My question is: With the review of The Northern Affairs Act, does the minister envision that this act may, in fact, be a stand-alone act, although it might be compatible with The Municipal Affairs Act?

Can you see this act being the act that would handle all of the administration aspects of native and northern communities, thereby The Municipal Affairs Act would be intertwined with this act? I am just wondering if that is envisioned by the minister. Mr. Robinson: When we introduced Bill 28 last year, it was more along the lines of

an act of housekeeping in nature. I believe that depending on the results that may arise from the consul tation mechanism that is occurring right now, which may require us to alter The Northern Affairs Act to a degree, where it will require substantial changes, then we shall proceed in that vein to make it more compatible with the current Municipal Affairs Act that we have. So it is dependent on the outcome of the review, and I will certainly be sharing the results ofthat review with my colleague. So it is depen dent on that, Mr. Chairperson.

We cannot really at this point predeterm ine the outcome of the consultation process. I know several presentations have been made. Some allude to the fact that some communities feel restricted by the current act itself. So I think that, simply, what we are doing is it is due for review. Circumstances are changing in northern com munities, and this review will allow us to bring up to current-day realities the needs of our Northern Affairs communities.

Thus if legis lation is required, whether that be substantial or we continue to have it more of a housekeeping nature, we will do it that way as well, but I am awaiting the outcome of the review that is currently going on. Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I will just shift gears a little bit now.

I believe it was December 13 , 2000, when the announcement was made that based on the recommendation of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the Province renounced the Province's 50% interest in mineral development activities on reserve land, which I would share with the minister that I was in agreement with this action by the Province. I would like to ask the minister: Since that has been put in place since December 13, 2000, have there been any royalties flowing to a First Nations community as a result of this change, and how much? Mr. Robinson: I am very much aware of what the member is asking.

One of the recom mendations, of course, of the AJIC was to deal with that particular matter. I belie ve that that answer could be more completely answered by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk). However, we have not introduced, as of yet, legislation with reference to that particular recommendation that was made by the AJIC. Certainly, I believe that it was meant to give First Nations communities, particularly, more opportunities, and as the member knows,

794 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 there is currently some exploration going on in the Oxford House area of this province. There is other exploration, as I understand it, that is occurring for mining opportunities which will lead to employment and economic opportunities for northern Manitobans and all Manitobans in that regard. The 50% share that the Province is going to be renouncing as part of its share will be introduced by legislation to the best of my understanding. However, I think that question should probably be referred to the minister directly responsible for Mines.

I wish I had the details at my disposal on that matter, but that is certainly one of the efforts that we are putting forth with respect to the recommendations made by the AJIC. * (15 :40) Mr. Pitura: I appreciate the minister's answer that it possibly could be best answered by the Minister responsible for Mines. I would ask the minister if he has any speculation as to the legislation and whether he expects it to be intro duced this spring or in the next session. Mr. Robinson : I will take that question under notice, Mr.

Chairperson, and I will reply to my collea gue at the earliest opportunity, because I really cannot say what the legislative agenda with respect to that particular matter may hold. I would prefer to take it under notice and get back to the member, either personally or by writing, in the next little while. Mr. Pitura: I would just like to switch now to the $23-million highway project that was announced to improve year-round access to South Indian Lake. I just wanted to ask the minister if a portion of this or if all of the $23- mill ion project is being funded by Manitoba Hydro under the Northern Flood Agreement?

Mr. Robinson: The road we are talking about, of course, is an obligation that results from the Northern Flood Agreement arrangement and something that was promised many years ago by different governments that have been in place in the province of Manitoba. It has been a long standing issue. The real answer to the question is that it has been a long-standing issue. I understand that the road was promised prior to us taking of fice to be the Government in Manitoba. That is a question, again, that I would defer to the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Ashton).

Perhaps his department would-when his time for Estimates are up, he could probably answer in greater detail than I could at this point in time. But certainly I believe a portion of the money, if not all, would be coming from Manitoba Hydro, because of it being one of the outstanding issues with respect to South Ind ian Lake, and it is one of the obligations that was left outstanding for a number of years. So it is a matter that is currently happening.

I may add that with the termination of the freeze arrangement effective the 31s t of March, 200 1, Manitoba Hydro has reaped sufficient benefits under the freeze arrangements to com plete the previously committed projects. So this matter, the project, will be funded under the Water Power Rental Agreement, as we knew it previously. and this is how the road will be funded for South Indian Lake, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Pitura: Are there any funds at all flowing through your department to the minister's depart ment on this project? Mr. Robinson: No, not from our department specifically, no. Mr.

Pitura: I guess that leads me into the next series of questions with respect to the Northern Flood Agreements. I was wondering if the de partment could give me an update as to the progress of the Northern Flood Agreements and how quickly we can anticipate some finalization to these agreements. Mr. Robinson: Shortly after we were sworn in as ministers of the new Government in the fall of 19 99, we met. This is one element of the NF A that I am going to speak on at the current time. One of the first things we did was we met with Chief John Muswagon of the Pimicikamak Cree Nation, otherwise known as Cross Lake.

The areas that he identified to be of critical importance to his community were road

April 25, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 795 upgrades on Highway 373, 374, the requirement for a bridge, the opportunities that they saw in the mining industry for titanium mining in their community, the lack of job opportunities for their communities, social issues including un empl oyment, housing, and the high degree of suicides that were occurring in the community. Now, Mr.

Chairperson, I do not want for a moment to be accused of denying that the effects of hydro developme nt on Aboriginal people in many of these northern communities have not had negative impacts because I believe that not only in the four other NF A communities that have signed comprehensive impleme ntation agreements, that being Norway House, York Landing, Split Lake, Nelson House, no doubt, the traditional economies have been impacted to a huge degree, as has the Cross Lake com munity.

Upon that meeting with John Muswagon and the subsequent meeting with the Premier, I believe it was February of2000, we again agreed that we did not want a confrontational approach on how we deal with things, so we agreed on certain principles. As a government, we initiated a cabinet committee that would deal with a number of these issues resulting from the Northern Flood Agreement, not only for Cross Lake, but the other communities. The member will recall that on December 15 , 2000, I rose in the House and acknowledged our Government's acknowledge ment of the Northern Flood Agreement as a modern-day treaty.

Also, our Government has moved in a way that I feel is appropriate, and that is to proceed with the different departments that are part of this NF A cabinet committee of our Government. Of course, these departments include Conser vation, Industry, Trade and Mines, Trans portation and Government Services, Hydro, the Minister responsible for Hydro, and myself.

In our dealings with the Northern Flood Agreement, with respect to Cross Lake, we agreed that we would proceed on the construction of a bridge on Provincial Route 374 to provide an all-weather access to the com munity, also re-engaging the Government of Canada. I believe that, in the last several months, we have been successful in bringing the Government of Canada on board with respect to its own obligations, under the Northern Flood Agreement.

As well, we have been attempting to do some work on the advancing of the potential titanium mine that could provide a lot of oppor tunities for people in Manitoba, and also specifically the community of Cross Lake. Unfortunately, discussions have not gone the way we would have liked them to go. * (1 5:50) I know my coll eague from Morris will agree with me that, with the previous minister, this was often a frustrating time for him, and I am finding that we are just as frustrated on a Jot of these things.

What we are finding is high-priced consultants and lawyers to be living off the backs of suffering Indians, but not really effecting any meaningful change in the community of Cross Lake for the ordinary citizens. We find that the communication between our Government and the community has not been there. What we would like to do is to be able to have the opportunity of doing things that are meaningful for the community, that will be a benefit to the community. We want to begin with the community on a government-to-government basis.

The high degree of suicides, as an example, the health care needs, the need for an elderly care home, some of the basic issues that exist, we need to address those colle ctively with the federal government, with the local government of Cross Lake, the First Nation, and the community council, as certainly ourselves as a provincial government. We need to work together on those pressing social and service needs within the community of Cross Lake. The communication has been, I think, one way, and that is the best way I can describe it.

There are consultants that have put Cross Lake and Manitoba in a bad light, I figure, in a lot of ways, with the previous activities in Min neapolis, as an example, in the last couple of days. It does not put Manitoba in a most positive light. That is truly regrettable because a lot of

796 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 these people do not live in a community. While I am sure they feel they are doing the right thing in advocating for what is happening in Cross Lake, in fact, there is some damage being done there because the community members themselves are not having access to our Government, and we have made a couple of attempts to get to Cross Lake. The first time we had, it was cancelled on their side.

In the second time we wanted to visit the community, we had to cancel out because of certain things like the rural forum occurring, and pressing matters that we have to deal with in the House did not enable us to be in the community. However, that is the latest that I can report to the member. On a positive note, I can say that, on the trapping issue as an example, we are making progress with the trappers on their claim, under claim 22, with specific reference to how the Northern Flood Agreement or the flooding hydro development project has affected their way of life and their traditional economy of trapping.

We have been able to engage in a good dialogue with them. We are working with the Trappers Association, even though we have received some criticism by some of the PCN officials. I believe that we are making significant moves in addressing some of the long-standing needs of trappers.

At the same time, with respect to Split Lake and Nelson House, the Nisichawayasihk Cree First Nation, we are making moves with these two communities particularly who want to ad vance and see the benefits of striking partner ships with Manitoba Hydro and the Manitoba Government because they feel that there are positive things that could be realized from future development. I believe that we are moving in a responsible manner. I wish that we could make more movement in the community of Cross Lake. I believe the member and I have talked about this previously. It is unfortunate that these kinds of things occur.

However, we are continuing, and nobody can blame our Government and certainly Manitoba Hydro, but they can certainly speak for themselves of not wanting to deal with Cross Lake in a positive way. I know our staff have been meeting with them regularly, but there are times when we feel not necessarily the community leadership, I believe, of Cross Lake, but certainly some of their high-paid lawyers and consultants have been unfair and unreasonable in the sort of fees that they have been trying to get from us in their so-called advocacy for their community. Mr.

Pitura: I would just like to follow up on that and ask the minister, and I know that he has shared with me a number of actions that parties are taking with regard to starting to address the needs of Cross Lake with regard to the NF A agreement. I guess my question to the minister is: What does he see as the common denominator or the catalyst that would be required to bring about a final agreement with Cross Lake to get to that point where the minister could stand up in the House and say: I would like to announce that all five communities now have signed on to the NF A? Mr.

Robinson: If I could just be very, very clear. I believe that the only way we can get that sort of thing accomplished, and I certainly want to see that too in my lifetime, is that we deal government to government. The chief and council wiil deal with our Premier (Mr. Doer) and Cabinet and our Government on that very fundamental basis of government. In other words, what I am trying to say, Mr. Chairperson, if we can get rid of the high-priced lawyers and the high-priced consultants, I am sure we can get a lot done.

If we can have a heart-to-heart discussion with the community leadership and the general citizens of the community, I think that we could make a lot of movement. I believe that when we have done that, for example, on the community council side we have made significant moves, as I described, on things that we are doing with trappers. I wish that we could have a final agreement tomorrow. Unfortunately, we are trying, but to no avail obviously, because perhaps lawyers and consul tants have mor e clout than we do in that com munity. I hope for significant progress in this regard in the next little while. Mr.

Pitura: I guess a part and parcel of the issues surrounding with Cross Lake too is the development of the titanium mine. I know that the minister and I have discussed this and I guess probably equally frustrated that the development

April 25, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 797 of this mine has not already taken place. Does the minister see the titanium mine as being part of the NF A agreement? Does the minister see the use of public funds in terms of development of this titanium mine? Mr. Robinson: As I indicated earlier on, we met with Chief John Muswagon and members of his community previously. You know, I do not want to paint doom and gloom. I mean, there are things happening with respect to Cross Lake. Some of it we would like to see speeded up.

For example, as I said, we are at the current time engaged upon some initiatives, and we have done a certain amount of work there in spite of the obstacles that are placed bef ore us. For example, when we talked with Chief Muswagon he said that they needed upgrades on the road, and we are doing that; the process of building a bridge, and we are doing that; recognizing the Northern Flood Agreement as a modem-day treaty, we have done that; on re engaging the Government of Canada with respect to its NF A obligations, we have done that.

We are trying to work with the community on addressing some of the pressing social and service needs within Cross Lake, and we are attempting to do that as well. On the issue of the titanium mine, this could bring about at least 500 jobs, not only to the community of Cross Lake but for specialized fields in two other areas of Manitoba. We feel that this will allev iate some of the other problems that may exist. * (1 6:00) The Department of Industry, Trade and Mines is currently working and looking at various options on how we deal with this particular matter. A meeting has been scheduled.

I cannot remember when this meeting was going to occur between Gossan Resources, which currently has a partnership arrangement with the community, along with I, T and M from our Government and Aboriginal and Northern Affairs staff, to discuss these issues related to the Pipestone claims. I anticipate that we will get an update on what possibilities may exist. One of the things is the land issue. Because some of the deposit, as I know, of the mineral itself or the titanium deposit is not specifically on reserve but in an area that could be altered to treaty land. That has been one of the outstanding issues.

I feel that we could alter that and we could make corrections in that regard. I think that, along with other things, has been something that has not necessarily been dictated by the community leadership but more so by the consultants that have been involved first-hand in what has gone on there. I think if the community members really have a good understanding that in fact there are these opportunities I believe that there will be a change of opinion on how we do things.

I am not suggesting for a moment that they get rid of their leadership in their community, but I believe that there has to be some level-h eaded dealings with government, not only our Government but cer tainly the Government of Canada on a number of these issues. In order for the lands, as I was making mention earlier, the third-party interest of Gossan, of course, would have to be resolved, and their mineral rights extinguished before it can be a reserve. In order for the lands to be transferred to reserve under the NF A, there are those things to do.

So the resolution of the issue would have to be negotiated to the satisfaction of all parties. I will report to the member upon the meeting that is going to occur between Gossan, Industry, Trade and Mines, and Aboriginal and Northern Affairs on any developmen ts that may come up. Mr. Pitura: I would like to wish all of the best to the minister in these negotiations. I know it is almost like a razor blade to walk down the centre on this one and to make sure that you can come up with an agreement.

For the future of Cross Lake, with regard to employment, it is important to have the opportunity and to get the develop ment done on that titanium mine. It is important to get the settlement of the Northern Flood Agreement so that everybody can go forward. I wish you well in your future negotiations with the community.

798 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 200 1 I just would like to follow up in tenns of the status of negotiations related to Manitoba Hydro working with First Nations communities such as Split Lake on the development of new projects and how this is going. Mr. Robinson: I believe that there has been a new attitude. In the past things were not done properly with hydro development and by governments themselves.

I think that what we are doing is correcting some of the wrongs that occurred in the past and trying to put in pl ace a new sense of ownership to any activity that may occur in northern Manitoba communities. I know our Government has been accused of selling out on this and that, but I do not see it as that because the lives that have been directly affected by hydro development in northern communities have been the lives of Aboriginal people in their traditional economies.

We know that hydro development is something that has dramatically altered the way of life of many Aboriginal people, particularly, and northern Manitobans generally, I would say, with respect to trapping, hunting, fishing, and so on, with the alteration, the fluctuating waters, and so on. So I believe that Aboriginal people have evolved. Aboriginal people have become more aware of their circumstances and their surroundings. They want to proceed on a basis of new-age technology. They want to give and afford their people opportunities, jobs that require certain skills.

Certainly that has been the agenda of a person like Chief Duke Beardy of the Tataskweyak First Nation, also known as Split Lake, in the agreement that they reached with Manitoba Hydro in any future development. As well, Chief Jerry Primrose of the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation must be commended on the efforts that they have been engaged with Manitoba Hydro on involving partnership arrangements. All these things were done wrong in the past. I believe that they have to conform to the modem day needs, because the people whose lives have been the most affected have been Aboriginal people.

In order for us to secure a better relationship with Aboriginal people, we do not want to be faced with this three decades from now again, as we are with the NF A on one particular matter with respect to Cross Lake. We would rather do it right from the outset and ensure that our future generations are not faced with the issues, such as the ones in Cross Lake and other communities.

So we want to get it right, right at the start and ensure that there are opportunities that not only one party will benefit, that indeed Aboriginal people, especially from Split Lake and Nelson House, in the kind of dialogue that they are involved with currently, are not left being a minor pl ayer but being a significant player and having some real say in what the future holds for them as well, but more so detenn ining what the future holds for them with respect to their people and their community and the traditional economies that they seek to keep for themselves in the future.

I know that my coll eague the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), who sits as a board member for Manitoba Hydro, is committed to that as well. Our Government is committed to engaging in these partnership arrangements, but it is for the sake that we do things a little differently than we did in the past, because there is no doubt that we have made mistakes in the past and we do not want to repeat those mistakes again in the future. Mr.

Pitura: I hope I can get the pronunciation right, the Tataskweyak First Nation, with regard to acquiring an equity interest in a hydro project at Gull Rapids, I was wondering if the minister could share with me what this equity interest is. For example, is it in the actual construction of the project or is it equity in the finished project? How would that equity pay out interest and dividends? Mr. Robinson: I thank my coll eague for that question. It is something that we, of course, questioned too when we first began the dialogue on that matter.

To the best of my understanding it is right from the outset to the time the project is underway. They require a 25% equity interest and they require community approval. This will be also in the construction phase and onward. Up to 25 percent, but not required necessarily, but indeed the equity interest is from the start to the ongoing work of the project. Mr. Pitura: The minister is saying that the maximum amount of equity that could be gained in a project is 25 percent?

April 25, 200 I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 799 Mr. Robinson: Yes, that is right. * (16:10 ) Mr. Pitura: I realize that the Gull Rapids project, I guess my memory is failing me now, but it was not a large production of megawatts that was coming out of that project as I recall. It was about 12 5, I believe, something like that. With the anticipation, and if you go back to just recently, this last weekend, with the conference of the summits in Quebec City, in discussions between President Bush and Prime Minister Chretien, they were certainly discussing the need for energy and energy development.

I think both of them looked west to Manitoba as a possible source for this energy. There is a tremendous number of megawatts that still could be de veloped in Manitoba, and probably most of it for export. Now, if you look at the equity situation that has been established between Split Lake First Nation in this pro ject, I would like to ask the minister: Is this the standard in terms of partici pation by First Nations with perhaps, say, remaining projects, or is it anticipated that there would be more flexible types of arrangements whereby First Nations would participate in these projects? Mr.

Robinson: It is relatively new, the latest efforts that we have been talking about here in the last few minutes. It is unprecedented. We have not done this prior with the partnering of First Nations people on the traditional homelands of the Cree in this case. As I said earlier, some of the things that were done in the past were done not comple tely to the satisfaction of the First Nations communities and the Aboriginal people that live there, only to realize that 30 years later. I think that what we are trying to do here is something comple tely different, that we do things right at the outset.

Details of this and the agreement that is pending with Nelson House are with Manitoba Hydro. The additional details of this, I think, would be better answered by the Minister responsible for Hydro. I know that he has much more detail than I do at his disposal on, for example, how big the Gull Rapids station and its capacity will be. So I think that I would defer any further questions on those specific projects. I can talk generally about what I see is going on, but I believe that specific details could be responded to by the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro. Mr.

Pitura: I am just talking in general details, especially with respect to the equity interest in the pro ject. I think we realize that the develop ment of hydro-el ectric energy in this province is important. I was going to ask the minister if the equity interest, which in this case it could be as high as 25 percent, if that was the standard? Then you get to the situation where you asked a question, now because of this equity interest in the hydro electric plant is it still a publicly owned utility or is it a public- private partnership?

Then you go on to some larger megaprojects which are probably in the billions of dolla rs to develop. The 25% equity interest is also a part of that. I would just like the minister to share his thoughts, and maybe his vision, as to how he sees this developing and playing out with northern Aboriginal communities? Mr. Robinson: certainly welcome the opportunity to give my thoughts just generally on these arrangements that are being made.

No, I do not feel that we are allowing Manitoba Hydro to be going private, because how do you measure that with Aboriginal people, particu larly First Nations people, who are, and including myself, wards of the federal govern ment? We are generally, I believe, trying to do things in a proper way, so I do not think we can be accused of privatizing Manitoba Hydro to whatever percentage it may be.

I think simply what we are doing is because we are in the traditional homeland of the Cree in a lot of these matters in northern Manitoba and because a lot of it is Treaty 5 territory and a lot of it has to do with the original inhabitants of that particular area, there is something there and that being water of course. That, of course, leads to hydro development possibilities. I believe it is something that is logical, that it is good business, that we engage upon because of the lives that

800 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2001 have been most impacted by Aboriginal people by hydro development initiatives. I believe that rather than going back to the mistakes that we did in the past, we do it right from the start and we try to do it in a responsible way.

Perhaps I would have an altering opinion if it were somebody else, like a private company, but for Aboriginal people to become involved in their already depressed state of affairs in a lot of cases in northern Manitoba communities, I feel that this only makes sense that they are given opportunities to engage upon these partnership arrangements. Certainly believe they had to be commended for that and certainly Hydro has to be commended for allowing this partnership possibility to be there. That will ensure there is hope for the future rather than pay a bigger bill at the end of the day later on.

I think we are seeing a different way of doing things and that there will be a general sharing of revenue. The debt, I think, will be much lower in the long term by doing it this way, the proper way, than doing it the way we did in the past where certain areas were flooded. As a result, it takes several years to come up with a comprehensive agreement. We are faced with that everyday.

Fox Lake, the tremendous impact that had on the Cree people of that community in the town of Gil lam, that are in and around the town of Gil lam; the outstanding issues with respect to the Churchill River diversion on the community of Churchill itself and four of the five NF A communities, and the outstanding issues that exist with fishermen on Lake Winnipeg as a result of their Grand Rapids generating station.

So I feel that if Aboriginal people are made to be partners at the outset, I think that will save in the long run the tremendous cost that we are having to deal with at the current time in finalizing some of these effects that hydro development has had on our communities in the North. Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I guess one last question in that area, I gather from the minister's comments that the equity position in the pro

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-19
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 19.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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