Hansard Blues

Committee of the Whole –

Section C

Draft Report of Debates

The Honourable Raj Chouhan, Speaker

4th Session, 42nd Parliament

Tuesday, November

7, 2023

Morning Sitting

Draft Transcript — Terms of Use

PROCEEDINGS IN THE

BIRCH ROOM

Committee of the Whole House

BILL 40 — SCHOOL AMENDMENT ACT, 2023

(continued)

The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

C) on Bill 40; R. Leonard in the chair.

The committee met at 11:04 a.m.

On clause 4 (continued) .

The Chair: Good morning, Members. I call Committee of the Whole on Bill 40, School Amendment

Act, to order.

We are on clause 4, and I would ask the Leader of the Third Party if she might repeat

her question for the minister.

S. Furstenau: Just to go over the question of yesterday, it was around the councils and how protocol

will be respected in each area where these councils are being put together.

[11:05 a.m.]

Hon. R. Singh: The Indigenous education councils will approach their work from the distinctions-based

approach, prioritizing local First Nations in decision-making, language and culture

work in each school district. It's also important to note that all Indigenous voices

will have space at these councils.

S. Furstenau: I just end with this question. I just want to follow up on the line of questioning

yesterday around compensation for the councils and whether the determination of the

compensation is being worked out with First Nations, Indigenous communities, and how

that is going to inform the levels of compensation.

[11:10 a.m.]

Hon. R. Singh: This legislation was co-developed with the First Nations Education Steering Committee,

and we will work with them on the compensation issue as well.

M. Lee: I thought, as we wrapped up the day's proceedings yesterday, that I wouldn't have

the opportunity to come back into committee. As it turns out, we do. So I'm happy

to add further to where the Leader of the Third Party has been with the minister.

Just on clause 4. When I look at the provision 87.002, approval of targeted grants….

I'd like the minister just to outline for us that mechanism.

The lead-in language says that if the minister provides a direction for a targeted

grant under

section 106.4 of the School Act, then…. What follows is…. The Indigenous

education council must do the following things. So there's clearly some opportunity

for the Indigenous education council to approve the board's plan for the grant and

the board's spending of the grant and then, after the grant is spent, approve the

board's report, if any, on the grant spending.

That just raises a number of questions in terms of the opportunity for the Indigenous

education council to provide their input in a meaningful way. First of all, under

what circumstances will the minister determine whether a targeted grant would be directed

by the minister to a board under 106.4?

Hon. R. Singh: There is currently one targeted grant under

section 106.4. It is the Indigenous education

target fund.

[11:15 a.m.]

Every year the ministry provides to the school district $1,710 for a self-identified

Indigenous student, which was estimated at $109.9 million for the 2023-24 school year,

in order to enhance and support Indigenous students' educational programming. These

funds must be used for the Indigenous student program enhancements over and above

those provided to non-Indigenous students.

M. Lee: I understand the minister gave a description of the funds that are existing by way

of direction of a targeted grant. So just to reconfirm, it's $1,710 per Indigenous

student for a total, currently, of $109 million under a current targeted grant mechanism

from the ministry.

With the passage of Bill 40, with mandating Indigenous education councils for every

school district in the province, is it expected that the ministry will increase the

amount of funding available through this targeted grant mechanism?

Hon. R. Singh: The targeted fund is for students and student supports, and the IECs will be advising

the boards how to spend that money. So those are the conversations that will be happening

with the IECs.

M. Lee: Yesterday at committee, we had a good opportunity to talk about the contextual slides

that the ministry, through an ADM, shared with the First Nations leadership gathering.

We were focused quite a bit on how to improve student achievement, absentee rates

on reserve and off reserve, as well as….

[11:20 a.m.]

When we're talking about achievement, we're talking about basic numeracy and literacy

abilities for Indigenous children.

When it comes to this clause 4, the purposes of these Indigenous education councils

include advising the board on providing comprehensive and equitable educational programs

and services, and improving Indigenous student achievement, integrating into those

learning environments Indigenous world views and perspectives.

We did have a discussion yesterday in committee, the minister and myself, about these

Indigenous educational enhancement committees that are already in place.

As we talk about…. My understanding, of course, with Bill 40 is it's expanding both

the bodies, in terms of through Indigenous education councils across this province

with all the school districts, but also expanding the work so that First Nations and

Indigenous peoples can have more input through the mechanisms that are spelled out

in clause 4 into the education of Indigenous students.

I just want to clarify my understanding, though. Because first of all, given the minister's

response just now, is it not correct that there will be an expanded mandate and scope

of the purposes that are spelled out here in clause 4 for Indigenous education councils

that today, before the passage of Bill 40, that these purposes are, actually, not

being fully addressed?

Is there not going to be an expanded scope of activity under these Indigenous education

councils? That is my question for the minister to confirm and describe what that scope

is.

If there's no change, I'd like to know that there's no change.

Hon. R. Singh: In some school districts, the Indigenous education councils, the work is already happening

— on the member's point.

[11:25 a.m.]

But what this legislation is…. It mandates school districts to have an Indigenous

education council.

We are also trying to create consistent terms of reference. There are inconsistencies

in how Indigenous education councils are operating. There are some school districts

without Indigenous education councils.

This legislation will shift power to the local First Nation, increase the accountability.

Also, there would be consistency across the province.

M. Lee: Generally, it does sound like the minister is describing an increased number, certainly,

of Indigenous education councils across the province. Increased accountability, the

minister made reference to. So I'd expect that it's reasonable, which is the purpose

of Bill 40, actually, to make a change.

Coming back, then, to the minister about the overall direction for a targeted grant.

The minister, in response, did provide a description, Madam Chair, of the overall

to date $109 million that's being made available for the purpose on a per-student

basis.

Perhaps I can just clarify. Under the existing targeted grant, is that already covering

all Indigenous students in the province?

Hon. R. Singh: The target funding covers all self-identified Indigenous students.

M. Lee: In terms of the nature of the targeted grant, as referred to under

section 87.002

in clause 4, this targeted grant, though, is only for operating expenditures and not

capital expenditures by boards of education. Is that correct?

Hon. R. Singh: Yes.

M. Lee: When we talk about improving Indigenous student achievement…. We did have a discussion,

for example, about the need for transportation funding to support even Indigenous

students on reserve to get to school.

Will the Indigenous education council have any opportunity, then, to provide input

on the need for any capital funding to support education for Indigenous students?

[11:30 a.m.]

Hon. R. Singh: As I had mentioned yesterday, the transportation funding for on-reserve students is

handled through the B.C. tripartite agreement transportation committee. It will not

be the responsibility of the Indigenous education council.

M. Lee: I gave that as one example. Are there any capital expenditures or investments in Indigenous

education that the Indigenous education council will have any opportunity to provide

any input into, recognizing that the minister responded that transportation is off

the table?

Hon. R. Singh: The purpose of the Indigenous education council is…. What we are focusing on with

this legislation is creating equitable space and giving Indigenous students that equitable

opportunity for a quality education. All kinds of conversations can come during the

Indigenous education council conversations.

M. Lee: If there is an item…. The minister, I think, recognizes the point that I am getting

at. If we just focus on equity and recognizing the great deal of inequity….

I do note, by the way…. Perhaps I would just take this opportunity, while we're at

it…. The minister, in her first reading speech — again, if we're just speaking on

equity here — made the comment that there are…. I'm just doing this by memory, but

I can pull it. I'm sure I'm pretty accurate about this.

The minister made the comment that there are systemic barriers in the education system

that need to be addressed. Generally speaking, that was the reference in her first

reading speech. Perhaps, as I ask this question, I'd invite the minister to make a

comment about the kinds of barriers that the minister is referring to.

My point, then, is…. When we're talking about dealing with the systemic barriers and

equity…. What I'm hearing the minister say is that the Indigenous education council,

in terms of their mandate and their terms of reference, certainly can speak to their

recommendations as to how to address the inequity and the systemic barriers in the

education system for the education of Indigenous students.

If that's the case, to the extent that there are capital expenditures or investments

that are identified, what will happen with those pieces of advice or recommendations?

Where does the work of this Indigenous education council go to the extent that it

relates to capital expenditure and investments?

[11:35 a.m.]

Hon. R. Singh: The systemic barriers that we have heard from the First Nations directly include the

racism of low expectations, streaming of students, policies and procedures within

the district that do not reflect Indigenous ways of knowledge.

The Indigenous education councils will be providing advice directly to the district

on all parts of the system that affect Indigenous learners.

M. Lee: I appreciate the minister elaborating on her use of the term "systemic barriers" in

the education system. I then, in view of that response, wanted to again ask the minister,

though, to comment or at least reply on….

As the Indigenous education council considers those systemic barriers and how to provide

for, in the words of clause 4, "comprehensive and equitable educational programs"

and, also, improve "Indigenous student achievement…." To the extent that any of those

advice items to the board of education relate to capital expenditures or investments,

how does the Indigenous education council then effect that change if the targeted

grant is only to do with operational expenditures?

[11:40 a.m.]

Hon. R. Singh: When we are talking about the systemic barriers….We have known that the Indigenous

students have faced those barriers for generations.

The primary responsibility of the Indigenous education councils would be improving

the learning experience for the Indigenous learners. How to improve the graduation

rates, the literacy and numeracy rates and student attendance are the examples ––

how we can break those barriers and make education more equitable for Indigenous learners.

M. Lee: I appreciate the minister's responses on this.

To ask the question a slightly different way: in terms of clause 4, 87.002, in the

drafting of this provision, which refers us into 106.4 of the School Act, was it considered

by the ministry to refer to other sections of the School Act that deal with capital

expenditures and not just operating expenditures?

Hon. R. Singh: The Indigenous education councils will be advising on grants provided under this act

in relation to Indigenous students. Those can be operating grants as well as capital.

M. Lee: I just heard the minister say they can be operating as well as capital grants, if

that's what I heard correctly.

Does a targeted grant under 106.4…? I'm reading the language there, and it says: "The

minister may, in respect of an operating grant…." Is there some component in that

section that is intended by the ministry to suggest that capital grants are also available

for the minister to provide direction to a board of education? Is that correct?

Hon. R. Singh: I'm referring to the purposes of Indigenous education councils under clause 4, 87.001,

which is talking about…. The Indigenous education councils will be "advising on grants

provided under this Act," and that is how that will impact the Indigenous students.

M. Lee: Thank you to the minister for that clarification.

When we're referring to 87.001(1)(b), the minister is indicating that "grants," of

course under the act, includes capital grants.

Can the minister, then, just refer to the sections of the School Act that would be

incorporated by this reference into this clause, recognizing that there's a specific

set of provisions under 87.002 that deal with targeted grants for operational grants

but not a specific reference to the capital grant?

[11:45 a.m.]

Can the minister, at least for clarifications for this committee's purpose, for the

record, just incorporate by reference, I suppose, under sub (b), which capital grant

provisions under the School Act are incorporated by reference effectively by 87.001(1)(b)?

The Chair: Members, noting the hour. If I could ask the minister to note the hour.

Hon. R. Singh: I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

Motion approved.

The committee rose at 11:45 a.m.

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