VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. F~1DAY, DECEMBER 14, 1979 Sf NO. ,

December 14, 1979 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Culture. MR. POWER: Tape 1679 EC - l Order, please! S'tATE.'!ENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Mr. Speaker, I have two ministerial statements I would like to make, first on souvenirs and promotional materials as they relate to our department and other government dep~rtments. I wo11ld like to announce today the new policy of this government relating to the purchasing of souvenirs and promotional materials for all government departments. As you are already aware, Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Culture, the Department of Industrial Development, the Premier's Office, and all other government departments spend a fairly considerable amount of money each year on these very necessary items. For some time now 1 we have been concerned that Newfoundland and Labrador souvenirs of the 'made in Japan' variety and type were not thoroughly in keeping with this Province's provincial image. As a government, we have decided that all souvenirs and promotional type materials purchased by this government must be produced in the Province of Newfoundland iiild Labrador.

The only exception to this will be the small Newfoundland type pins which are •o common a:'\d which, so far, have not been produced in this Province. ~s new policy is in keeping with this government's overall policy of supporting local industry and assisting in every way possible the employment of our work force. We intend,particu!Arly, to purchase crafts and works of art and the like produced by our local residents. We feel certain that this move will add some degree of stability to this type of venture.

I would like for any individual or company which produces such commcai ties in Newfoundland and Labrador to contact my office so that 4726 _.

December 14, 1979 Tape 1879 EC - 2 MR. l'OWER: a sui t.Wle catalogue of Newfoundland and Labrador items might be compiled. Mr. Speaker, if I have leave to do a second ministerial statement before the Opposition comments? ~R. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. POWER: Is it agreed? Agreed. Thank you. Mr. Speaker and all hon. members of this hon. House of Assembly, I am delighted and proud to be able to announce the foZl!liltion of the first Arts Council for Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

POWER: Since this present administration has taken office, we have placed a qreat deal of emphasis and importance on the preservation of our heritage and enhancement of our culture. One of our earliest 'election commitments was the formulation of an Arts Council for our Province. We made this one of our most basic commitments because we are of the firm belief that Newfoundland and Labrador is on the verge of great economic activity and,although we are excited at this prospect, we do not intend tc allow development of any kind tc change our basic way of life.

We, as a government, being fu!ly cognizant of our past and diligent towards the responsibilities of the future, are determined that we shall progress; however, that we shall not be consumed by progress.

The Arts Council will have as its objectives t:o foster and promote the study and enjoyment and production of works in the arts, tc foster and promote through grants and otherwise the traditional arts of the Province and the arts of groups indigenous to the Province, to usist,throuqh grants and otherwise, in the deVW!lopment of provinciil:', amateur and professional artists and art organizations,and to advise the qove:rn.ent with respect to the development of arts within the Province.

The funding of arts in Newfoundland and Labrador through the Arts Council will be based on funds receivad from the Public Trea.sury, of course, and a.lso from private sources. 4727

December 14, 1979 T~pe 1879 EC - 3 MR. POWER: 'Ihe A=:ts Council will be registered .s a charity for the purposes of th.c Income Tax Act, and we, as a government, are optimistic that the community at large will ~ppreciate the areat vuue of the Arts Council and contribute to its funds. 4728

December 14 1 1979 SD - l ~!R. C. PO\'iER: In selecting the members of the first Arts Council, Mr. Speaker, we i1ave tried to be truly representative of all geographic areas of the Province. r,;e realize that it was quite impossible to have all sectio~s of the arts community represented; however, we are convinced that these twelve versons selected would be truly dedicated to all the interests of all the Arts community. The following lJersons will compr~se the Arts Council, to hold office for three years, Dr. George Story,Hr. Aiden ~aloney, :·lr. Ray Condon, .·lr. Aicilael Cock ana c'lrs.

Diane Butt; and to i1.old offi::e for a period of two years, Or. harold Carew, l-!r. Roy Eabstock, i>!rs. ~oris Saunders, :1r. ,Jeil l1urray, 11rs. helen Sheppard and :.rr. Joilll Perlin and :·Irs. Joan Crawford. I would also like to aC:<i that .•Irs. Edith Goodridse, Curator at :1er:torial University Art Gallery, has been selected Executive Director of the Arts Council for a one year period starting Januar.f 1st, 1980. :·lr. George Story has consented to Le cnairn1an and ~.

Aicien as Vice-Chairman for a one year period after which time the Arts Council will select and elect its Chairman and Vice-chairman on an annual basis. ~lr. Speaker, I am sure that all han. members and indeed all residents of the Province wish ~~ese members well in their duties. All of realize full well that we will all benefit in NewfounJland and Labrador from ti1e )?reservation of our proud heritage and enhanement of our wonderful cult~e. SO~!E liON. I'.El>IBERS : ~. SPEAKE~: (Simms) <1R. i'l. J;,;~IESON: near, hear. The han. the Leader of ~~e Opposition. ~lr.

Speaker, this is cne occasion when it will not be at all difficult to adhere to your admonition that ~esponses to ministerial statements be snort and to tne point. All I need to say is that we agree totally witn ~~ese anr.oLmcements made by the :.linister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture i~lr. C. Power) among many other things this morning. I must cor.fess that I hope that on tne so~venirs that he can come t;l.rough with something worthwhile 4729

.Jececllber 14, 1979 Tai=-e ~4o . 18 20 SD - 2 .'!R. J. JAlliESO:<: because we have haa some ~~etty shabby stuff and it is a very good thing t:o know ti1at l•'e are able, anti I ~n s~re we are able in this Province, to produce something ~~at: is distinctive and appreciated by the recipient. I might say that, by the way, one of t~e ~~ings ~~at I was able to do during my period in federal politics was to ensure that most of ti1e gifts that were given were !lewfoundland items. Hear, hear. :-IR. D. JA.'1IES0N: And I was a.na.zed at the vari"'t:.t' th3.t w~s there to be drawn from.

On the Arts Council, we have, on many occasions in the past, of course, said that this was a very worthwhile L'l.itiative and one, I am quite certain, that will hel;; to enhance ana to give us a better ailpreciation of our c.iistinc::ive heritage and c~ture and I compliment the minister on both of tilese statements • SO:.ffi nON. l1El·lBERS : Hear, hear. ORAL Qu:t;STIOIJS • •lR. SPEAKER: (Sir.uns) The han. the Leader of the up~ositicn • l·lR. D. JA:UESON: Hr. Speaker, r have a question fer the han. the Premier.

Given the events of last evening, I wondering • \ihether i1e is - and I guess before I ask the question that he probably has not - but could he indicate whether indeed the Budget n1easures, those which involve i'lewfoundla:1d, what their status is no•;? has he been in touch or has anyone been in touc h with him so ~~at our people can know whether or not they must anticipate these various changes in the Buc:i.get which now, of course, are in Limbo? 4730

December 14,1979 MR.SPEAKER: (Simms} PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape No. 1881 AH-1 The hon. the Premier. No, Mr. Speaker, we have not been in touch yet this morning. We hope to be in touch as soon as the office is open jn ottawa. MR.E.ROBEBTS: They were open all night,were they not? PREHIER PECKFORD: Some offices, they were not necessarily the government offices • I would say they were more the party offices than they were the government offices. MR.E.ROBEBTS: The next government. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR.E .ROBERTS: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR.

E • ROBER'!'S : MR.SPEJIKER: MR.E .ROBERTS: PREMIER PECKFORD: Not the present one, the next one. Oh, the next government. Want to wager on it? Oh,oh! Want to go for another bottle of champagne? Order, please! What is Your Honour's orders? I have from time to time, Mr. Speaker, found myself in the position of chairing a n~her of meetings around the Province and if hon. members on both sides of the House want to participate in some kind of a discussioD I would be only to glad to relieve the Speaker of his role and stand here and continue to listen to the interchange between both sides.

In rasponse,seriously,to the question by the Leader of the Opposition, no, I do not know. I heard various comments over the evening and early this morning from people in Ottawa,but there had not been any consensus at that point in time as to just what follow ~~rough there would be so we are waiting until the offices open this morning to talk to the appropriate officials about what follow through and some of the ministers concerned. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy,Sir. X am tempted to ask the Premier 4731

December 14,1979 Tape No. 1881 AH-2 MR.NEARY: if he and McGrath are going to kiss and make up but I will forego that. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: The drilling for exploration work in connection with the discovery of gold and other minerals near Burnt Island Pone-out near Port aux Basques, near Isle aux Morts , the drilling is now complete; could the hen. gentleman tell us if he has received the reports yet from the company and what they might indicate? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR.BJI.RRY: Mr.

Speaker, we had s~~ preliminary information which indicated that there were encouraging results but we have not yet received the final reports 1 that I am aware of, at least they have not been brought to my attention yet. Normally it takes some time for the company to compile the data from the drilling and I expect within the next month or so we should have the results. MR.NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hen. member for LaPoile. MR.NEARY: I gather then from the hen. gentleman's answer that 1980 may or may not see the start-up of a mine near Burnt Island Pond.

Is it that encouraging, that the company are leaning towards going ahead with the development of that property and starting a mine down there? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Mines and ------ Energy. MR.BARRY: l!lr.Speaker, that is too preliminary a supposition at this stage. All I can say is that there were encouraging results and we will require more detailed inf<·rmation befo!re we can say for certain whether in fact anything wi: 1 get underway in 1980. 4732

Deca~~er 14, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (SHIMS) : MR. HJ\L'ICOCK: Tap e 1882 PK - 1 The hon. member for St. Mary's-The capes. Thank you, !1r. Speaker • I have a question for the han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing pertaining to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing situation in Trepassey as it exists today. It is basically about the rent structure 6 They have had rent increases over the last year from $90 a month and $370 a month. AN HON. MEMBER: What? MR.

HANCOCK: In the New Year it could go as high as $600 to $700 a month based on the income of both people, the man and the. woman; if they are working they have to pay 25 per cent of their income, which seems a bit ridiculous in this day and age. I wonder if the minister could tell us his situation on exactly what is happening and tvhat the government's view is on what is going on there now? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, the units the hon. gentlernaa is referring to, of course, are subsidized rental units, low rental units whereby rent is geared to income and it is guaranteed that the maxirnillll\ rent would not exceed 25 per cent of the income. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Obviously if ~ybody is going to be paying $600 a month, and I doubt that very, very much, l1r. speaker, if he is, then he obviously has an income of $2,400 per month and therefore does not need low income housing, indeed should be moving out of low income housing and get into an economic unit or buying their home.

The units tha~ the han. gen ,tleman was referring to,by the way, rr.any of them have been sold and ar< available for sale. If those peopl: are now paying that kind of r~ 1t,I am sure that they should investigate taking out a mortgage and buying those units. MR. HANCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 4733

December 14, 1979 l-IR. S?EAKER (SIMMSj: for St. Mary's-The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Tape 1882 PK - 2 A supplsnentary, th~ hon. member It would be beautiful to move out of them if you had something to move into, but with the interest rates and this Budget that came down the other night I say that they cannot move anywhere . l'lhere are they going to go if they have nothing to move into? They cannot afford to go out and take out a $100,000 mortgage to get the house that they need or they want because it is going to cost them $300,000 in the next couple of years.

Well, Sir, during the recent election campaign the people in that area , the people concerned i".ad a meeting with the Premier and he guaranteed them that there would be no legal action taken against them until such time as his depart.Inent or the government had a chance to investigate exactly what was going on. Could the minister tell me if this has been done? And if so, has the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing been contacted by the Premier,or whoever,concerned? Have they been contacted by the Premier? Because he said there were no more legal action being taken against them.

Ar.d I have a notice here where this guy last week has gotten an eviction notice· He has to be out within a month or he has to pay his back rent,and the former mj~ister for that area said that they would not have to pay their back rent, it is on their advice that they did not pay their back rent because he told them that they did not have to pay itr that the matter would be straightened out and has net been s~aightened out. And has the Premier indeed been in contact with the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing concerning the situation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR.

WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to respond to the hon. gentleman's

preamble and he says, "Where will they go?" These people have been offered these units for sale a·~ greatly reduced prices, in fact, I think in the order of $10,000 or $11,000. A mortgage on that would be far less than the hon. gentleman is talking about, he is talking about $100,000 mortgage. These peopl~ if they are L~ an 4734

Decewber 14, 1979 Tape 1882 PK - 3 Mr. Windsor: income bracket of $2,400 per rnontn combined income for a family, I am sure they can afford $10,000 mortgage. So there is no hardship on them; indeed 1 a nwnber of these Wlits have been sold and a number of other persons have indicated ~hat 4735

December 14 ,1979 Tape No. 188 3 AH-1 MR. WINDSOR: ------ ~~ey wish to buy the unit that they are presently in. As it relates to discussions wit.~ housing, yes, I am continually in contact with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and we are still reviewing this whole situation. MR.SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. - MR.HANCOCK: Since you have been in contact with - MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! A final supplementary. The hon. member for St. Mary's -The Capes.

MR.HJ\NCOCK: If you have been in contact with them and they were supposed to be notified by the Premier that there were be no more legal action taken against them1 how come they have to be cut within a month? ~R.SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: Obviously what the hon. gentleman is referring to , Mr. Speaker, is a standard notice.

When somebody is in arrears -as I understand,in perhaps three or four cases there are people in arrears down there of perhaps $2,000 or $3,000, and they are obviously receiving a standard notice.But we are still looking at it and no action has been taken to evict them other than to s~nd them a standard notice. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. mell'ber of Fogo. MR.TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Social Services. It concerns the employment opportunities programme administered by his department. In the estimates, by the way,there was some $2,600,000 allocated for community development projects.

I am wondering if the minister could tell us what the status of the programme is at the present time? MR. SPEAXER: The hoD. Minister of Social Services. MR.HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, all the funds are 4736

December 14,1979 Tape No. 1893 l>.H-2 MR.HI~Y: committed. I will not say they are all spent,becauee there are quite a number of projects ongoing throughout the Province. There are a host of projects that we could not attend to and I can only say to my hen. friend that we try to operate under certain criteria in terms of anprnving such projects. Of course,the main purpose is to give people an opportunity to come off social assistance and re-enter the labour market. That is the prime objective.

But in doing that we take into account some other features, one , how long people have been in receipt of assistance and we try and take the ones who are on longest. And prob~ly most important of all we try to do it in areas where the case loads are heaviest in .order to provide some kind of relief to the workers in those offices and in those districts who are burdened with very heavy case loads.

Insofar as my hen. friend is concerned 1 I think he will agree that we have had some projects in his district already and unfortunately one that is waiting at the moment, there are no funds to approve it1 but if and when there are some savings from other projects then certainly we will be glad to give it some attention. MR.SPEAKER: (Simms) for Fogo. MR.TULK: A supplementary. The hen. member Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister would give us a listing of the programmes that are now outstanding, perhaps the number, and whether he considers that they are worthwhile programmes and,if inde~d he has a great number cf worthwhile projects waiting to be funded 1 he might tell us whether he intends to go to his Cabinet colleagues and perhaps have funds allocated for those projects so that some of the social assistance recipients and those on fixed incomes might be alleviated from the hardships that they are sure to suffer this Winter? MR.SPEI\KER: The hen. Minister of Social Services. 4737

December 14, 1979 Tapa 1884 EC - l MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly attempt to give some indication as to the number and types of projects that we are unable to fund at the mcment. There is a sizeable number, as I have indicated. I have not approached Tnaaury Board in terms of additional funding because we went through that process at Budget time, and whilst certainly it would be wonderful to have $10 million to spend, I have to realize thilt the overall situation with regards to funds is such and the needs ilie such of various departments that, of course, I cannot expect to get everything I want.

The only thing that I can do is to hope that when the new Budget comes down for the next fiscal yeilr, that we will pick up those projects that we have on file and cury on from there. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: The hon. the member for Trinity - Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the hon. the Premier. I am sorry he w~ not here yesterday to hear the President of the Coancil (Mr. Marshall) answer my collea<]Ue from Bona vista North (Mr.

Stirling) , when he le£t the impression that the directors of the Fisheries Loan Board were either suspanded, expired, fired or terminated and vas not quite sure what, and then finally, in the Late Show, indicated they were persona non grata - did not exist anym;>re. The question I would like to put to the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, is in connection with the twenty new vessels that ilie to be built as indicated in his Ministerial Statement of so!!le days ago, I would like to ask the Premier whether the $12 million - or the $24 million, which is really $12 million because $12 million has already b~en appropriated - whether the mcney for the construction of these new vessels is to come from that $24 minus $12 million or whether there is going to be additional appropriation of funds for the puxpose of building these new vessels, these forty-five footers and up to sixty-five foot longliners?

Decerller 14, 1979 EC - 2. Tne non. tlle Premier. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) P~MIER PECKFO.RD: No, it is not. Mr. Spealter, tl:le additional 1110ney tl:l;r.t was approved last week and 111nn0unoed in tllia bon. House is to do two tl:lingsf it is to provide money fo~ twenty new vessels forty-five tO sixty-five feet to be bUilt, not alret~.dy under construction, new approvills 1 .brand naw applications • MR. NEARY: t.ying new keels. PREMIER PECKFO.RD: ~t is right, l.ayinq new keels, e-ctly - &Rd to proce•• u many applioaticns as possible t1la1;; are in now for engines, hydrauli.c gear and electronic gear.

In otl:ler words , it was a two-pronged attac;k upon a very sericus problem for tl:le next month or so to keep boatyards in operation - and 1110re ia{lortantly, or just as iulportant, to pJtOvide fishexmen who are waiting with federal subsidies already approved tQ have their new boats in place for next Sprinq. So in answer to the bon. JDe!Uber's question, as well as to OOIIIIilel1ts made by the Leader of tl:le Opposition, it iii not simply to keep shipyards openting, it is also to provide boats and qear to fishe;men. 1\nd what we per.ceive fro111 the applications that 4?39

December 14, 19?9 Tape 1885 PK - l Premier Feckford: are in are, one ,the desperate need for a number of boats to continue to be built in the forty-five foot to sixty-five foot range i~ Newfoundland, new keels, for fishermen: who are right ready to move because they have their federal subsidy, licences and all of the rest, and twenty will make some impact there, not as much as we wculd like, but some.

And secondly, a fair amount of money to be allocated to outstanding applications that fishermen have in for engines, because they have the boat , thev have the shell and tney have no engine to go into it~ or they have the boat and the engine and they do not have the electronic gear, or they have the boat and the engine and the electronic gear and they do not have some of the navigational aids or whatever. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. PREMIER PECKFORD: So that we are trying to attract both new boats and equipment to go in boa~s already built. MR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F.

ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen . member for I think it is fair to say therefore, Mr. Speaker, and in the form of a question I wish to put it, that whatever money is being appropriated for this particular thing, we are not, in fact, going to see the construction of twenty new vessels this year. Is the hen. Premier aware of the fact that a great number of loans have been approved and, in fact, cheques issued to boatbuilders for the purpose of building boats and to fishermen who want to build boats through a boatbuilder?

Is the Premier aware of the fact that loans have been approved that had not gone tr~ough the Fisheries Loan Board? And these loans were approved by the m:;i~LeL 's office, by the Minister of Fisheries office, if not by the minister himself, without going through the Fisheries Loan Board and that therefore no orders have been given by either the Federal or Provincial inspectors to inspect these boa~s? Could the Premier indicate just how many loans were approved before the last election without the knowledge, without any knowledge whatsoever, of the Fisheries Loan Board? 1?40

December 14, 1979 Tape 1885 PK - 2 ~!R . SPEAKER (SI!-IMS) : The hon. Premier . PREHIER PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker, I am not aware that the minister ' s office approved loa~s that had not been approvee by the Fisheries LOan Board . Now before this Rouse closes at dinner eime, ~ shall immediately find out whether there is any truth to that statement ~4t the hon . member made and bring in any information I have on it.

All I can say is that in the reports and the scrutiny that we have done, the Cabinet., and have instr ucted a number of people in Treasury Board , Finance , and Fish~ies to do, and c.he report which they have signed, that every single loan that was approved by the Fisheries ~~ Soard has been honoured right down to the last - :1R. F . ROw"£: ?RE.'1IER P~KFORD : No,that is not the question I asked. - wait! I understand the English language, and I understand ~xactly what the hon . member was saying, I am just trying co do a progression of things here all at the one time .

One, that every one tl:>4t was approved by the Fish e ries Loan Board has been honoured and the money is being sent out to c.l:>.e various applicants and so on. Now I am not. aware that. chere were any loans approved by the minister's office, I take it 4741

D c cerr~cr 14, 1979 Ta;,oe No . 1886 SJ - 1 PRE ~IIER PEC1:70RD: t.'1e .1inister of Fisheries office ar.d t.oats built to which new t.'le .Loan Board will not respond, but between now and one o' c:!.ock I will investigate that to see i= t.~ere are any because that is the first news I have ueard of ~•at. All the loans that I know of were approved by the Fisheries Lean Board and the monies and the cheques have been going out and t.'le progress payments, the boats being inspected and so on.

But if there is some informat1on to show that there were boats approved without going through the Loan aoard 1 I am going to find out about it before one o'clock eiti1er t.'1rough the han. member or han. nembers opposite and through the Department of Fisheries, I will tell you t.~at. ~R. F • ROI;E : HR. SPEAKER: (Simms) de Verde. •'lR. F. ROWE: A further supFlementary, l1r. Speaker. The han. member for Trinity - Eay I thank the Premier for his answer, Mr. Speaker, and I would ask him if he would undertake a full-fledged investigation into the - now, get cne difference - AN hON.

MEMBER: Into tne minister's office. !'-lR. F. RO\'f"E: -into t. .. e minister's office, precisely, because the point is that loans have been approved and cheques have been issued. We do not have a huge research staff and obviously the Premier would have a greater number of personnel to investigate that. But I would as~ him to assure the hon. t. .. e House that he would launch a full-fledged investigation into the amount of money that has in fact been approved by some source other than the Fisheries Loan Board for the construction of boats in this Province because my - MR. S. NEARY: MR. F.

ROWE : And how man· pick-ups they have paid for. - real concern is that that additional mone1 that the Premier announced some weeks ago in fact is going to go towards boats that are already under construction and already completed. That is my concern. l'.R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. '1742

December 14, 1979 Tape i'lO. 1886 SD - 2 PRE:1IER PECKFORD : Just let me respond to that, ar. Speaker, and if the hon. m~~r from LaPoile (.~. S. Neary) or other hon. ~embers have any information on this, please l-IR. S • NEA.'<.Y : PRENIER PECKFORD : l-IR. S • NEARY: PRill-IIER PECKFORD: do the investigation. MR. S. NEARY (inaudible) • PRE :.tiER PECKFORD: Yes, we have all kinds of it.­ Hell, pass it along to me. You are head of the goverTh"ent, you know. Yes, but pass it along to.I will Find out how many pick-ups Pass the information along to me .

Now, to respond to th" bon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (l-lr. F. Rowe) - !1R. S. NEARY: Enquiry (inaudible) HR. SPEAKER: (Simms) PREMIER PECKFORD: You should have a Co~~ssion of Order, please!

To respond to tl1e comments and questions of the hon. member =or Trinity- Bay de Verde, yes, I undertake to immediately do t."-at, to investigate an<i find out whether as it relates to the minister's office because I ~ not aware of it and the reports that I have, comprehensive reports by accounts and so on who are put together as a tew" to go into the Fisheries Loan Board, okay, as distinct from the minister's office, I agree.

The report tha4 was done, the investigations that were done were investigations done by a team of people from Treasury Board and Finance into the Fisheries toan Board to find out the status financially of the Board and 10W many loans are outstanding and I can say from that point of view that all of the monies that have been approved before last week were monies to ensure that all the approvals were honoured, that all the applications that had approval marked on them from the Fisheries Loan Board were honoured and tha~ this new money, as I understand it, clearly and totally is going for the ne~' - MR. F.

ROWE: You had bet~er check that one out. 11743

December 14, 1979 P~liiER PEC.'<.."<'QRD: I am pretty clear on that. MR. F . ROWE : PRE.'liER PEC!<FORD: Tapa No. lo86 SD - 3 - applicati ons , the ne~ boats and r hope you are ri9ht . In the meantime , I w ~ll undertake immediately to see ~nether ~~e re a=e any approvals tha t ·~:e ~t the minister 's office ~~at did not have the approval of the Fisheries Loan Board , how many involved,if any, and report hack to ~~e House . ~~~ . E' , !tO\.JC: I M-~ . SPE>J<:ER: (Simms) of a ~!.inis ter of Pisheries? :1R. S?E.!>J<E:R: wisnes to yield . !IR . G. f:.IGET : P~~IER PECX!'ORD: (i naudible) . o:R • G.

FLIGr!T : Could tne Premie r be a littl o oore - The hon . mecber for windsor - 3uchans. - L'1ll:euiate t.l\en to t.'le appo:.nta.ent i".r. Speaker , "I do not thiM that q".leS-:l.On is - s ince this is pr obably the last question ar.y mewber will get in this House ur.til February or :-larch , I "'ould like to ask this (iues tion tO ::.:,e .iir.iste r of Cons'.l!ller Af!:airs a nd Env~roru::em: (:·Irs. E. :<ewhcok) , a:~C as I s.:.l.a, since it is apparent the ~ouse will 4744

December 14, 1979 Tape 1887 EC - 1 MR. FLIGHT: close today and not open possibly until February, some major decisions will have to be made during that time, and I am concerned about the decision being made re a massive spray programme for this Province. I am wondering if the minister i,s in a position at this time to tell us - the pressure is on for a spray progranune. Can the minister tell us what pesticide or insecticide will be used in any spray programme in this Province this year? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Affairs and Environment. MRS. NEWHOOK: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Mr.

Speaker, I am sorry, I car.not give the hon. member this information. My officials are working on this problem now. We do have a special collllllittee set up for the use of pesticides and herbicides and I have not received their report for what will be used next year. I can check to see the progress of that report and let you know, but it has not reached my desk as yet. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a supplement=y. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary 1 the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, to the minister.

It is obvious to the Province that because of the bungling way that the Bt spray programme was administered this Summer that Bt will not be considered in a spray programme. We do not know if it is any good or not, thanks tc the way it was used during the experimental spray progriiJI!IIIe with Bt1 so that leaves us with fenitrothion and matacil. And the Province has a !Diljor supply of matacil sitting in Stephenville, as the minister knows. Is the minister saying there is some question that we might not use matacil, that matacil may not 1 ~ usecl in the spray programme, we may be looking at another insecticide?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I iilll sorry, I do not have this information. I really do not know exactly what we will be using .'}745

December 14, 1979 Tape 1887 EC- 2 MRS. NEWHOOK: next year or whether or not there will be any spraying at all, but I would have to get the report from this special committee that we have set up for this puzpose. And like I just said, I have not received it as yet, so I really do not know what they have in mind or what they will be recommending to use. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: (SiiiiiiiS) A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: I wonder if the minister would tell the House in her capacity as Minister of the Environment whose responsibility is to protect the s~car:is of water and that kind of thing in this Province, is she making representation to any colllllli ttee which is making a deCision to this year have a buffer zone around communities and to assure there will be no spraying, if indeed we have a spray programme - and it is very apparent that we will be having a spray progrillllml!.

Now, is the minister using her position as Minister of the Environment responsible to JUke sure that no spraying takes place over community water supplies and that there will be adequate buffer zones between any spray block and any community located near those various spray blocks? Hear, hear! 1746

December 14, 1979 Tape 1888 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The han. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. MR. NEw"'HOOK: Mr. Speaker, that is the policy of our department and of the spray prosrail'.m~, ~d I t:hink this- '""-S adhered to last year. I know in Gander this spraying did not take place near our water supply, and this was supposed to have been the policy throughout. And we are certainly looking at it for next year that there will be a buffer zone and regardless of which chemical we use to spray that near communities there will be buffering zones where mayre like Bt probably could be used.

This is what Nova Scotia has been doing; they use Bt in the buffer zones and then they use matacil further out in the country over the areas where there is more forestation and where there is less danger or where there are no people living. And we will be looking at this kind of a programme, but, like I say, no decision has been reached as yet. MR. FLIGHT: 1lR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . The han. member for Terra Nova. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. · I indicated a final supplementary for the han. member,unless the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) wishes to yield. MR.

FLIGHT: After Christ:mas 1 'Tom'. MR. SPEAKER: A final suppla~entary, the han. member for Windsor-Buchans- a final, final supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, again this will obviously be the last time that this House will have any input in to a spray prograrnme.I would believe that the decision will have to be made before this House meets again, Mow it is very interesting: the minister just indicated that we may be looking at a spray programme that will involve two insecticides, a pesticide such as matacil,maybe 1 in the main spray block and also using Bt in the buffer zones, is that what I understood the minister to say, that that is the kind of consideration that has been given to a spray programme, that we may be looking at two 4747

December 14, 1979 :·tr. Flight: coming spray prO<JYCU!2e? MR. SP~ (SIMMS): and Environment. ~!RS. :."EWdOOK: Tape 1888 Pl< - 2 particular chem i cals being used in a The hon. Minister o£ Consumer A!fairs Mr. Speaker, no,this is not what I did say. I said this is the programme t..~at they have in Nova Scotia . And we have r eports of their programme and we are studying it but we have made no decision whatsoever that we will go this route. And I ca.nnot say exactly what our programme will be for next year. And I cannot really say whether or not there will be spraying nexr year, not as yet.

This decision has not been reached yet. !-!R. SPEAKER: SOME HON. ME.'IBERS : MR. ROB£RTS: :-m. LUSI:I: The hon. member for Terra Nova . Hear, hear! Now, can Your Honour arrange an interview? l1r. speaker, I ... -ant to direct: a question to the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) . SO}!E BON. NENBE!tS : Hear, hear ! ~!R. LUSH: Mr. speaker,· when the commotion dies down I want to ask a c;;uestion to the Niniseer of Social Services ..

Again it is in relation to a matter that I raised last week concerning the senior cicizens complex ac Eastport. aware in addition to the nwnber one 4748 And as the minister is •..:e.ll

December 14, 1979 Tilpe 1889 EC - 1 MR.

LUSH: problem of being uniible to find occupancy for that home, another real problem is the fact that orne, for Whiltever reasons, have chosen not to pay two contractors who honoured their colllllli.tments, who COD1pleted what they were supposed to do without ;my escillation in cost, ..nd yet 1 for some reason or other, CMHC did not pily the&e two contractors, I know the minister is aware of thi.s 1 so I wonder if the minister can indicate why CMHC is not paying these two contractors and if the minister hils made ilnY representation or any request to CMHC on behalf of these contractors cwed somewhere in the vicinity of $70,000?

MR. SPEAKER: (Siii'IIIIS) MR. HICI<EY: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member will recall a meeting with Ciinada Mortgage and the committee and myself last year when this matter was discussed in some detail. I thought that by now there would have been a resolve to the question of non-payment.

I ilDl ilWilre, ilS he Ciln ilppreciate, of the outstanding ~unts from a couple of contrilctors md it seems to me, - I recall that meeting, the detail indicated that there was some dispute by Ca.nada Mortgage as to whether or not the overruns or the cha.nges that were made in the construction of the building h;ad in f;act been included or ilpproved by Cilnada Mortgage. And, of course, they have taken the position that they are not responsible. As a result of the hon. gentlellliln 1 s question last week, I had the occeion to meet with Mr.

Ryan on another matter and, while I was talking to him, I mentioned the question of the Eutport building. He indicated to me that,as of yet, that building is not the property of Cilnad;a Mortgage. In other words, they would be taking some initiatives soon to take over the building. I would suggest to my hon, friend that at least the only resolution that I can come up wit:_. with regard to those contractors would seem to me to be that when C;mada Mortgage, by whatever means, takes over that building, then they take over the liabilities as well.

Right now there is some question as to whether the contractors can sue, because they do not know whom to sue. I assume they could at best, sue the coiDl!littee. If the collllllittee has not 4749

December 14, 1979 Tape 1889 EC - 2 MR. HICKEY: ;any ~ney, they in turn would have to countersue C&nad;a Mortgage. So it is a very involved and complex matter. But once the building is taken over by canada Mortg.;r.qe, it would seem to me - the fact that they have not been able to rent the building, therefore there have not been any revenues coming from its operation - it would seem to me th;at Cil.n;ada Mortgage, in taking over the building, because the project has not worked, would also be liable for the liabilities in constructing that building, which is the question that my hen. friend raises. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: The time for Oral Questions has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIJ\.L COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: (Si11D11S) MR. J. CARTER: The hon. the member for St. John's North. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to table the report of the proceedings of the Standing Committee on Social Services on the Estimates, 1979 - 1980. This Committee, Mr. Speaker, consisted of myself as chairman, the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) as vice-ch;airman, the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird), the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett), the member for Port de Gr;ave (Mr. R.

Collins), the member for St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas), the member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey), the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulkl , the member for Tornqat MountAins (Mr. Warren) • We considered five he;adings - Justice, SociAl Services; Consumer Affairs, Health and Educ;ation. We sat for ;a total of twenty-five and one-half hours from July 31st to August 9th, Even though lulndling the estimates by our Committee only reduced the total time of estimates by fifteen hours, nevertheless, we spent twenty-five and one-half hours. They were, in my opinic1 ., 'iOi"i:".l fruitful.

Here is the report of those deliberations, and it gives me great pleasure to table them. Thank yo~ SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear: ·1750

December 14 , 1979 Tape 1889 EC - 3 ~SWERS TO QOE:STIONS FOR. WE!ICS: NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. the Minister of R.ural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Spealcer, I have the answer to a question from the hen. the ~r for LaPoile (Mr. Neaey). 'l'he only indie<~.tion I have is question number forty-si.x, I do not have the number of the Order Paper. Number forty-six.: Would you ask the ho,n. the Minister of Fis.heries to lay upon the table of the Bouse the follcnriri.g information. How many applications are on file for a 4?51

December 14, 1979 Tape No. 1890 PK- 1 MR. J. GOUDIE: provincial license to operate small fish plants or freezer plants? The answer is there are thirteen new applications on file. The locations for such applications are Boyd's Cove, Hickman's Harbour, Red Bay, English Harbour West, Bay L'Argent, Trouty, Twillingate South, Summerford, Sunnyside, Hillgrade, Twillingate, Pinsent's Arm and Fishels. What action has been taken on such applications? The information is attached, I will not Eead that. What are the dates of submission of applications where no action has been taken to date?

All applications that have been received have been advertised in province- wide newspapers. And finally, when will action be taken on those applications where action is still pending? Hearings take place eve~y two or three weeks on all applications received by the Dep.J.rtment of Fisheries. There is a copy for the han. House, Mr. Speaker, and a copy for the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on said bills, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR.

CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order,please: A bill, "An Act Respecting Provincial Offences And Provincial Court Inquiries". (Bill no. 16). MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): MR. OTTENHEIMER: Shall Clause (18) carry? Mr. Chairman. The han. Minister of Justice. The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) brought the matter up yesterday whether there was an alteration in the law there, and we discussed it later on. The ex parte is just a restatement of what is already operative, and if anything it is more rather than less restrictive with the possibility of an adjournment for thirty days. 4752

Dec ember 14 , 197 9 Tape No. 1890 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: My learned friend,the Minister of Justice 1 (Mr. Ottenheimer),did speak to me outside of the House, and I am satisfied on the point. I think, in fact, the clause is an improvement, as the minister has indicated. MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT): MR. CHAIRMAN: AN HON. HEMBER: MR.. ROBERTS : on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR.. ROBERTS: MR.. CHAIR!1AN: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : MR. OTTENHEIMER: Shall Clause (18) carry? On motion Clause (18) carried. Shall Clause (20) carry? Clause (19)?

I think the minister might want to speak Clause (19) we did yesterday. Oh, I am sorry. Yes,I am sorry. carried. on motion Clauses (20) through (21) carried. Shall Clause (22) carry? No, no. Clause (22) . The hon. Minister of Justice. My hon. friend opposite also mentioned yesterday with respect to Clause (22j (

b) the wording there•,• "During pregnancy or following pregnancy in circumstances that might be reasonably attributed thereto." And what I intend to do would be to move the deletion of that Subsection (b). It certainly seems to have something of a sexist connotation and really seems to be entirely unnecessary. And subsection (

a) is sufficiently broad. So what I would do would move that subsection (

b) be deleted and that (c), (d), (e), (f), be relettered - 'accordingly' the President of the Council advises me. MR. CHAIRMAN (J3UTT): MR. ROBERTS: The hon, member for the Strait of Belle Isle. I think accordingly is a necessary and an unavoidable inference, but we will support the amendment. I think it is an improvement. And there is no doubt that the Clause as amended 4753

December 14, 1979 Tape 1890 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: will still allow, I suggest, ample authority in the Antorney General or in his officials to order inquiries wherever inquiries were necessary in the public interest. MR. CHAIRMM{ (BUTT): MR. ROBERTS: Honour is about to call - Shall Clause (22) carry? on motion Clause (22) as amended carried. on motion Clauses (23) through (34) carried. With respect to

Section 35, which Your 4754

December 14,1979 Tape No. 1891 AH-1 MR. CPJUP.MAN: (Butt) Clause 35. MR. ROBERl'S: I just want to ask is there any indication when the government intends to bring in this new regime? I know there is a lot of practical interest becanse I think the procedures under this and its companion bill, the companion bill which is the Small Claims Act that we adopted earlier, you know, they are hinged one on the other,and I think many people feel that the procedures will be very greatly improved. Is there any indication when these will come into force7 MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

In the very near future, I would think within the next couple of months , I believe those concerned are ready to go and have been aware of this impending legislation and I would say in the very near future, early in the New Year. MR. CHAIRMAN: Belle Isle. MR.ROBERl'S: The hon. member for the Strait of Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I take it we are to conclude ,it is the government's intention that as soon as the mechanical steps can be taken and what have ~ou to implement the new regime, it will come in. It is not a matter of beinq held.

There is no policy to hold-off,it is simply when the machinery can be made ready to function, is it? MR. O'l"l.'ENH.E:IMER: Correct. Yes . Motion that the committee reports having passed Bill No. 16 with amen~ents, carried. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Provision Of Lower Cost Prescription Druqs". (Bill No. 12) On motion clauses 1 through 7 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Clause 8. 4755

December 14,1979 Tape No. 1891 AH-2 MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) The hon. the President of the Council. 1-!.R.MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, arising out 64i comments made by the hen. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts) when this bill was in second reading 1 we are going to propose an amendment. Not wishing to prolong the committee at al1 1 I de wish to point out- I wish the hen. member for Grand Bank (Mr.Thoms) were . here and the hen.

Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Jamieson), but perhaps they are in earsight because the other day we had a little karfuffle over the Municipalities Act wheEe it was alleged that we would not accept any amendments 1 but that is not the case and I just want to emphasize this and get it on the record. MR. ROBERTS: establish. MR. MARSHALL: A B.ifficult burden of proof tn I gi~i-notice that I shall no doubt diarize this and refer to it again and again~ it is much more appropriate for it to be brought by the member for the Strait of Bell Isle (Mr.Roberts), Mr.

Chairman, and I want to make it quite clear that it is his amendment. If the wording does not turn out to be suitable 1 the birth of this amendment came from the Opposition, came from the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts),and is very indicative of the worth of this committee and the way in which this government listens. Even though we may be hopefully near completing t.'1e business of this portion of the session 1 I could not resist making the observation. So anyway,

Section 8, we propose that

Section 8 be amended as follows, by replacing

Section 8 with the following wording, "For the purpose of av<;>iding doubt it is hereby declared that no action lies against any person by reason only of the prescribing or dispensing of a substitute drug in accordance with this Act." I gather the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts) has not seen this wording. MR. ROBERTS: No, I have not. MR.l'.ARSHALL: I thought he might but I t."ink that 4756

December 14,1979 Tape No. 1891 AH-3 MR. MARSHALL: perhaps we should send it over for the hon. member for the Straits to see the wording and then we can give it to Chairman. I might say that it was worked out in conjunction with the law officers at the table after hearing the observations of the hon. member. MR.CHAIP.MJI.N: (Butt) of Belle :::sle. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. member for the Strait Mr. ~airman, I am quite overwhelmed by the spontaneous tribute paid by the House Leader and,of course 1 one is always very careful of Greeks bearing gifts to Troy.

But I think the amendment is an improvement and the hon. gentleman has done me the courtesy of showing it to me. The addition of the word, I think, certainly removes the danger which I think could conceivably have arisen under the original draft and that is fair enough. I guess that is part of the point of comrnjttee,to try to improve it. I must say, though, my hen. and learned friend could not resist ,and like him I feel the nice part about temptation is giving in to it, Sir.

I know Your Honour would not be familiar with that concept 1 but my learned friend and I both are and I would simply say that one swall~~ does not a Summer maY.e and one amendment does not a sensible government make. On motion c!ause 8 as amended, carried. 4757

Jecember 14, 1979 M...ll.. E • ROBERTS : ,•1R. ChAIR.'lA.J.'l: (Butt) Belle Isle. MR • E • ROBERTS : Tape No. 1892 SD - l Your Honour. The hon, ~emner for the Strait of Your !ionour, I take it, has called Clause ( 9) by necessary implication if not by actual act. I siillply want to ask the mi~>ister - again, this act is subject to procla.!nation - Are we awaiting a policy or are we awaiting simply the implementation of the machinery to make this new thing work? MR. CHAIRl•IA.'I: The hon, l1inister of Health. HR. I~. HOUSE: Nr.

Chairman, the implementatio~of course,we have been in discussion with the Pharmaceutical Association. There are a number of practical problems, of course, the least of which is not inventory that they presently have. And the other thing is that the act does allow us to set up a comrr.ittee to establish a formulary. While a lot of that has been done, it is not fully completed yet. So, we are looking to a period of perhaps six l.,onths before it will be effective. HR. E. ROBERTS: It will be going ahead (inaudible) • This is not one of these bills that is going to sit on ~he sta~ute ~oksand never be usea? ~1R. Oi.

HOUSE: ao. i'ie !1ave lookeC: at the practical problems anti we think it is going to take from five to six months, perhaps the 1st of July before it is fully enacted. l1R. E. ROBERTS : That is fair enough• I mean, I have no probl~" with the kind of situation ~escribed by the minister. I simply wanted to be sure because our statute Eooks are littered and cluttered with acts that have been adopted in all good earnestness by the government that adopted them and by tile House, and just never been proclaimed into law and I wanted to be sure it was not ano~~er of those.

Motion, that the committee report having passed the bill with amendment, carried. 4758

:::.e cer.ll..er 1.; , 1979 :-m. c::u;IR.·!AN : (i>..tc.::l Council. :-lil. :1. i!AltSuALr.. : 5;) - 2 ?he !\on . ::.1c Pr .::sl.c.ent of che 'l'har.k you , :1r. Cha.irrnan . .; Dill, "Ar. Ace To .Repeal The Governi!Ienc - Aclant:ic G)'!'s..cn, :.i.!U=a - r.unariqans LL:i::ec (.·.qr<::e!.!en: ) l.c~;, 1969 ". (~ill ;.;o. !:5) . On mocion Cla~es (

l) and (2), carrie<.: . havi119 passec ::he ~ill ,..i~1ouc a:n.anCI:ter.c , carriec . A cill , " 1\n ;,~t To .=.t~enu The !'rovincial CO..rrt Ac t , 1974 ". (Bi ll :lo . 22) . On ~otion Clauses (l) ~~ou~n (7), ca r r ie<l . :'lotion , that. t.i1e cowmi :::tae repor:: having passed :::he bill wl.tt1out. c:.:;end!::en t , carried . ,; bill , "i'.n :,ct To ?.e::Jove .'\nomalies In ?rovi;~cial Legisl ation 'rnat :-lay Ee Const.::ue<l t\s :>isc r~inaco::y ." (Sill .:o. lll . 0:: mo::ion , c:auscs (

l) chroug: \ (ll) , carried . :~o tion , chat the commi ttee r epo r t !"lavinc; ? O.Ssed ~":e bill . ..,iC:"\Out a::.en=en~: , carried . 4759

December 14, 1979, Tape 1893, Page 1 -- apb A bill, "An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act." (Bill No. 14). On motion clauses 1 and 2, carried. On motion, enacting clause, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Shall the

long title carry? MR. ROBERTS: (inaudible) there is no

long title in this bill? I do not think I have ever before in my fifteen years - MR. CHAIRMAN:

An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act. MR. ROBERTS: The bill I have has no

long title in it. It has a

long title, I am sorry, no

short title. I do not think I have ever before seen a piece of legislation like this. Is this a new draft style or is it common? I do not think it matters a hoot one way or the other. MR. MARSHALL: I have been informed, and it is a revelation to me, that our amending bills do not have

short titles. MR. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: Is that a new drafting style? (inaudible) 1977. Since 1977? That certainly shows how much we have been paying attention to the bills up here. MR. MARSHALL: Yes, because I did not know it either. MR. ROBERTS: In other words, we are invincibly ignorant. On motion,

long title, carried . Motion, that the Committee report having passed bill no. 14 without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Schools Act." (Bill No. 6). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. 47iJO

December 14, 1979, Tape 1893, Page 2 -- apb A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Fuel Oil Tax Act." (Bill No. 8) . Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill wit:hout a.mendment:, carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Workers' COmpensation Act." (Bill No . 25). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. Motion, that the Committee rise, report having passed bills nos. 16 and 12 with amendrr.ent and bills nos . 55, 22, 14, 6, 8. 21 and 25 wi~~out amendment and ask leave to sit again, Hr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEA.!<ER(Simms): Conception Bay South . ~~ .

CHAIRMAN(Butt): The hon. the member for Mr. speaker, the Committee of the Whole has considered the matters to it referred and have directed me to report having passed bills nos. 16 and 12 with amendment, and bills nos. 55, 22 , 21, 11, 6, 8, 14 and 25 without amendment, and ask leave to si:: again. 1761

December 14, 1979, Tape 1894, ?age 1 -- apb On motion , report received and adopted bills oreered read a third time, now by leave. read a .first and second time. ~IR. MARSHALL: On 1110tion, amendments Now, Mr . Speaker, with leave of the House we could third read from Orde r 2 down to Order 11 on the Order Paper. MR. ROBERTS : Well, Order needs no leave but we a.re prepared, Orders 3 to 11, to give those bills third reading.

The only thing I would ask Your Honour , I think it is appropriate, other than siJIIPlY reading t he bill number, it might be in order for the Clerks co read the title of the bill just so everybody is f\llly aware. HR. MARSHALL: Oh yes. MR. ROBERTS: I am supposed to be keeping track and I con.fess candidly, and I think nry learned friend would agree, we all lose track of the numbers from time to time. MR. .MARSJJJU.L: read the whole title . M.'l.. ROBERTS: Oh, yes, I think •;~e will I think perhaps even in committee, inst:ead of just bill 1, it should be a bill, "An Act -" whatever it has to co. MR.

SPE:AKER{Simms) : indiv i dually. MR. !-lARS HALL: We will do each of them we will so through them, Third Reading, a bill, "An Act Respecting Small Claims:' On motion, the following bills were rea t a third time, c·. dered passed and their tit:les be as on the Order Paper . A bill, "An Act Respecting Small Claims ." (Bill No. 17). 11762

Decl;llllber 14., 1979 , Tape 1894, Page 2 -- apb A bill , "An Act Respectin<;l Provincial Offences And Provincial Court Inquiries ". (Bill No . 16) . A bill, "An Act To Provide For The Provision Of Lower Cost Prescription Drugs . ''. (Bill No . U) . A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Govemment-Atlantic Gypsum , Limited - Lundxigans Limited (Agreement) Act, 1969" . (Bill No . 55) . A bill, "An Act To Amen .d The Provincia! Court Act, 1974 ''. (Bill No . 22) . A bill , "An Act To Remove Anomalies In Provincial Legislation That l-'.ay Be Construed As Discriminatory" . (Bill No . 21) .

A bill, "An Act To 1\mend The Pharmaceutical Association Act". (Bill No . 14). A bill, "An Act To l\me."ld The Schools Act ". (Bill No .6) . A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Fuel Oil Ta.-..: Act" . (Bill ·o . 8) . A bill, "An Act To !>.mend ';'he \-lcrkers ' Comp&~sation Act ". (3ill No. 25) . Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Crown Lands Act" . {Bill No . 33) . MR . SPEAKER(Simms) : the Council . MR. MARSHALL: The hon . t.~e President of Mr. speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Lands and Forests 1 I have pleasure in introducing this bill. The purpose of this amendment is twofold.

At the present time 1 applications of under twenty acres of Crown lands require 1763

December 14, 1979 Tape 1895 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. The policy had been established a few years ago, which was a much more sensible one, providing that only applications for fifty or more acres should require approval.

Unfortunately, when this policy w.as changed, the full body of the applicable law was not changed under the Crown Lands Act and The Administration And Control Of Lands Of The Crown Transfer Act1 so consequently, at the present time, there are approximately 400 applications requiring the approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, which,in the opinion of government, ought not to really require the approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council because all it does is it delays the issuance of grants.

And the purpose of this particular amendment, under the proposed amendment, only those applications - and this will be quite clear - for more than fifty acres, will reqcire such approval. The effect of the act will reduce the processing time of a large number of routine applications, which I think all members of the House will certainly endorse. The other aspect of the act 1'elates to title. At the present time a Crown title cannot be issued on any parcel of land to which an adverse claim has been identified. And, of course, that is the same way, this is the same effect.

There have been problems,though, where there are claims or there is an awareness of claims and nobody knows their validity or their strength and t.~e persons who might have a. claim are not asserting them. So this proposed amendment offers a solution that any claim which is in conflict with the Crown lands application can be dealt with by giving the claimant sixty days to initiate action to have his claim considered under the Quieting Of Titles Act, which is another act of this Province that I am sure all mambers are filllliliar with.

If the clailunt fails to initiate such an action, he foregoes any claim to the land and the minister is then free to deal with the application on hand. It is intended,then, to provide a mechanism for dealing with Crown lands applications which involve adverse claims that in the opinion of the Department of Justice had

DecemPer 14, 1979 Tape 1895 EC - 2 MR. HARSHALL: questionable Vii.lidity. Where adverse claims againstL~e Crown are considered to be valid, the department will continue to cancel the application as it has in the past. But this gives the department a way in which, in effect, to initiate the proceedings of an adverse claim so that the granting of the Crown grant will not be held up needlessly.

As I say, the purpose of the Act is to streamline and speed up the applications of Crown lands, which Llti.s government is very sensitive about and ve~ concerned with, and this is just another step by the government to achieve this purpose. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. the member for L"le Strait of Mr. Speaker, if Mf hon. friend would allow, I will straighten it out with him in a minute. My hon. friend m.y want to speak on some aspects of it. I want to say a word or two, simply to say that,first of all, the first p.rovision, I think, is a reasonable one.

One of the most annoying feoiltures of the government's - and I do not mean the politic•l government's - of the government's interaction with the public of this Provi.nce is in Crown lands.

And if we were not for all sorts of valid reasons going to deal very quickly with legislation, this bill would be worthy of a great deal of comment arising out of the situation with crown lands, because I think each of us who has dealt as a member with Crown lands - the officials there are mere than helpful, they do what they can, but there cannot be a person in Newfoundland who has ever applied for a piece of Crown land who has come away from the application experience, whether it is successful or not, has ever come away with a good feeling. It just cannot be.

The system hilS defeated the present administriition, it defeated their predecessors. I am not sure it will ever work as it ought to, but ~ertainly, nobody hilS ever been satisfied. I think the first amendment is a very striiightforward one. It is really not taking very much away from the House, it is not taking anything away from the Cabinet - you know, these things in my time in Cabinet were rubber stamped and I h•ve no doubt they are rubber stamped as of tod•Y· There is quite 4765

December 14 , 19 79 Tape 1895 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: a good system of officials and c:nl!llllittees who check, so that, in itself, makes some sense. I do not think there is any danger to the Crown estate because of this. The second - I do not know if principle i~> the right wo~, Your Honour - I ma=an, can a biU h~ve more tbom one principle? a·ut the second major change which would Come about with this bill, I think is one which we should welcome.

Because one of the qre41.t hudshi.ps now is if Your Honour, for example, were to <apply for a piece of Crown l ·and and somebody were to file a notic;:e Qf an adver~ clailll against it, ~ is literally no quick way of which I am aware to resolve that dispute. C.rQ'Wl:l Lands simply back off. I know of cases where I suspect the real reasons which have led to the filino;r of thf;l a.dve;rsa notie6 or ~ything except a 4766

December 14, 1979 Tape No. 1896 DW- 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: legitimate claim in the land. It is a family dispute or it is just,'Fe on this side of the harbour do not like you guys on that side of the harbour; and. Crown Lands back off• People have ended up with house<; built on land that they believed was in their family for fifty year~ there was never any question of it a mortgage company comes into the picture and has to have a title certified by a lawyer before a mortgage can be granted.

The lawyer says, 'I· cannot certify title unless Crown Lands issue it', and Crown Lands says, 'We are not going to issue it because there is a dispute'. I think this procedure will resolve that dilemma and I think there are adequate safeguards in it. One or two of my colleagues have asked if sixty days is long enough. As I understand the Bill,it is sixty days from the time the notice is · served personally upon the person against whom the adverse claim is being made. I ~~ink that is adequate.

In the civil courts of this Province you :1ave, def-ending or. ~~e court and the cause,four to eight days to res~ond to the writ once it i-:.as been served personally upon you. I think that is adequate ti"'E. I think this is not the sort of thing you need • to stand up and shou~ - about,. Lut I think it is a very substantial step -forward and will certainly help a lot of people who now are er~shed, in a system that they cannot find a way out of except at vast expense and vast difficulty. And accordingly I think we on this side should s~~port the Bill. Now my friend for Windsor - Buc~ans (Mr.

Flight),who spea~s for us on Crown Lends matters, L~~es and Forests r.~tters,may very well have some observations on the Bill and I confess candidly I was on my feet before I realized that my friend wanted to speak on this. I hoFe he does not need more than a half an hour ~ecause I guess by speaking first' I have used '.lp the hour slot. I did not intend to,but anY"'ay I would hope ~~at - in fact, :- :.::-. ':!•.1ite sure that what he has to say can be said in a half an hour. If not, we "'ill find ways within the rules £or additional time.

But I think we on this side do support the i3ill , I think these are t;..-o irrf)crta11t changes that 'tie should welcome. HR. S?EAl<ER: (SHIH~) The hen. meml:>er for \1indsor - Bucllans. 4767

Tape No. 1896 HR. G. FLIGHT; 1-lr. Speaker, whether I go half an hour or not ;;ill be cecided as to when I feel that I !·.ave made the points tr.at I •,;ant to make on t:.;>is particular Bill. Opposition said - i-!R. E. ROBERTS' _!iR. G. FLIGhT' Mr. Speaker, as the han. Leader of ~•e No, C:.;position i:ou:oe Leacer. - as the hen. House Leader {J.lr. P.oberts) indicatea,we would have no difficulty at all in supporting this aill.

Obviously it is going to improve the system and nothing can make it <mj' wars.:. l".ny legislation that improves the Cro;;·n Lanes f..ct and makes land more readily available to applicants in this Province has got to be an improvement so therefore we would ~ave to support it. The problem is, Mr. Speaker, ~~is is tokenism. "ber. I came into this liouse th:ree years ago, or four years ago, it took three years to clear a piece of land ~~rough Cro;;~ Lands-~o clear ownership, to get title.

And the minister of the day stood up with a piece of ar.8nding legislation and said, 'This is great legislacion because this will now make it possible for peoyle in this Province to receive cwnership to land in six months'. It still takes 1:>10 years, }tr. Speaker, even with people pushing it.

I would have like to have seen legislation that waul~ have cone away Vlith the fpolish referral system we have in this Province, the s~stem that guarantees that an applicant for a piece of Crown Land will wait two years because sorre employee,tecause of lack of staff in a regional office or what have you, a referral is sent down anc six month~ after it is still sitting on some clerk's desk 1 It may not necessarily be the fault of the clerk, but it is certainly a system that is not working; it is working to the detriment of speeding up the issuing of titles in this Province.

That. ~s the kind of legislation we would aave wantecl to have seen. The han. l;ouse Leader referred to scl!'.ething that may be detrimental in this Bill, and that is the twc months.• It is very conceivable that there would be times when two months would not be long enough for the claimant to make the type of reps:eser..tation he wc.,uld want to make. J.nd I would see no distinction here between a claimant and an absentee land­ lord, ;.le have got thousands of acres in this Province· ownec by absa!1tee 4768

Oecer.-~e r !<I, 19 79 'Tape t:o. l $96 !:):; - 3 o·.mership. ~iill U1is Bill affect lane s grancee or '"'ill i::. siL,ply a£fect applicant.s for lane? If sow.ezccy applied t•.1o years aso , :1is application ta.'-es precedence ove r a ne·.; c-ne a."lci 1.1: has no affect on leaseC: land to ahsentee leasees or ~ra."'tec land to a!::sencee srant.o:rs . so it si~ly ceal:;; . .,:_til a!=plican~:s , with applicacior.s, cl.ri:cs; r:e·~ ilO:plications - ~:.~ . E . RCBF.RTS : Ic will not c~ange tit.les 1 it. will si~ply help tc st.ral.<;~ten out ~ho awns a bit of lane. ~\R . G. F:.!GI:T: So , :~r . Spea:<er, I do not 4769

December 14, 1979 Tape 1897 PK - 1 Mr. Flight: care to carry on, to prolong the thing, I believe,as the hen. House Leader (Mr. Marshall) opposite indicated 1 this will improve the system, possibly speed up the issuing of applications. However, I have to say -and for that reason we are going to support it. We will support anything that would clean up the intolerable situation in Crown Lands now and make 1t possible for apFlicants to receive their land and not have to go through the anxiet~· of years and years wondering why an application made two years ago has still not been dealt with.

So we support the amendment. I have to say, Mr. Speaker, that we look £orward to amendments that will cut away the red tape that people in this Province have been used to the past four or five years in the next amending legislation. MR. SPEAKER (SIMl'!S) : If the hon. President of the council speaks now 1 he closes the debate. ~ffi. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentlemen opposite for their remarks . I will just make a few brief remarks in closing. First of all, the han. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) made the observation initially that this was tokenism.

But he indicate, you know, that when he came here it was three years and then he indicated now it takes two years. So it does show that there is some improvement. But at the same time I would concur with what has been said in the House,that nobody on the government side is really , least of all the Minister of Lands and Forest (Mr. Morgan), satisfied with the speed with which the Crown Lands applications are being processed, a.nd we are constantly striving to see what can be done to speed them up.

The government had taken the position of establishing regional offices- and I do not know whether that was a good move, the attendant extra red tape that occurred, whether this delays it or not- but I can assure the House that this is something that will be under constant review by the government and we will be striving'to do everything we possibl¥ can do to speed up the process of Crown Lands applications. '17?0

December 14, 1979 Tape 1897 PK - 2 Mr. Marshall: The other point that the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) made, and the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) alluded to it as well, was to whether ~wo months was enough. The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle indicated that he thought it was, and I agree with him.

The fact of the matter is that if a surveyor in doing a survey on Crown lands sees that there is an adverse claim or a possible adverse claim, it is provided in there that the minister shall serve notice on the alleged adv=se claimant and there will be an advertisement placed in the paper, and that would presumably be in cases where they cannot be reached. MR. ROBERTS: of any adverse claim. MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) the minister is aware Or aware of any adverse claim. Then the person is given sixty days within which to put up his position.

Now I would just point out in ordinary process in the court when a writ of summons, for instance, is served on somebody, they get four days,if they are within the environs of St. John's,and eight days outside the environs of St. Jor~'s. So I really think that sixty days - these things are arbitrary and you have to take a certain judgment on the thing, and this is the judgment that was made.

So I thank hon. members for their remarks and certainly indicate to them that we share the concern with respect to Crown lands and we hope that this Act with other measures that we will bring in will go a lona way in speeding up the processing. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Is it ~~e pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a second time? Those in favour "Aye", contrary "Nay 11 , carried. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Crown Lands Act" ,read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave, carried (Bill No. 33), 4771. j~

December 14, 1979 Tape 1897 PK - 3 !~R . ~!A . .I~SP.ALL : Order 32 , Bill No. 63. ~:ocion , second reading , A bill. "

An Act To Amend The Gaso l ine Tax Ace, 1978 (No . 2) ", (Bill 'No. 63) . MR. S2EAKER (S:W .. '!S ) : The han . Mir.ister of Financ e. DR J . COLLINS: ~l.r . Speaker , the amendment that was pas s ed t o the Ga sol ine Tax Act lase July a~empced private airc r aft from the aviation fuel tax prov i sion , the taxation ther,e 1 and kept: the private aircra f ts und er the Retail Sales Tax Act , "''ilich was at a higher r a t e .

Now actua l ly in practice t his is not found to be possible because there has been scime doubt whether in actUAl fact gasolin e is consumed in the Pr ovince if it is consumed by an aircraft, · beeause an airc r aft is not actually in the Province except •11hen it is taxiing en the ground . so this amendment now ext ends The Av iation ?'uel Tax .>.ct to a private aircTaft i n the 4772

December 14,1979 Tape No. 1998 lUl-l DR. COLLINS : same way that it applies to commercial aircraft rather than having private aircraft under retail sales tax. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, we can think of no valid reason why a private aircraft ought to be treated any differently than a commercial aircraft when it comes to questions of what tax ought to be levied on the fuel which that aircraft consumes, so that is one reascr. to support the bill.

A second one, the minister has indicated apparently there are some legal difficulties as to exactly where gas is consumed and l suppose there would be further ones as to exactly what is a private aircraft. I just do not know.

I could think of lots of confusing arguments,if somebody were paying me,to stand on my feet and argue as to what is private and what is not.So obviously the bill makes some sense.and my understanding is that gas consumed in any aircraft now will pay the same tax as will be paid in respect to gasoline consumed in any other aircraft, As long as they pay the tax ,that is fine by us so we will support the bill.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend T.ha GAsoline Tax Act, 1978," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 2) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Medical Act, 19 7 4 • " (Bill No, 54) MR. SPEAKER: MR.HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I think this is a reasonably simple bill. The Newfoundland Medical Board is an elected board and from that board they have to select a registrar.

They find it increasingly difficult to get a registrar sometimes from the board so they are asking for, they are requesting that we allow them iln 4773

December 14,1979 Tape No. 1898 AH-2 MR.HOUSE: amendment that will appoint a medical practitioner to be the registrar,either from among the members of the board or from out!lide the board. The three amendments there would,of course, one would give the duties of the registrar and the last one would make him an ex-officio member of the board. So it is a reasonably simple amendment. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: The hen. member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, the amendment speaks for itself and we certainly have no difficulty supporting it.

The board are the licensing authority.For a doctor to practice in this Province,he must be licensed by the medical board. It is often unheard of, often unnoticed,but it is an extraordinary rowerful body and1 I would submit 1 over the years has served the people of this Province extraordinary well. I co not ~now who the current registrar is, but I suspect it might still be Dr. Garret Brownrigg, a - DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible) MR.ROBERTS: The minister is not sure either. Dr. Brownrigg was registrar for many years and before him Dr.

Cluney Macpherson both of them men of eminence in the practice of medicine in this Province and indeed in the public life of the Province. I would simply say, and I will not pursue the point to any length, I would simply say to the minister that I thir~ the time has come - any if you wanted to move an amendment in committee we would gladly welcome it and support it the time has come when there ought to be appointed to the board at least one lay person.

The board now is entirely made up of doctors and I think we have accepted in this Province the principle that-I believe the Benchers cf the law society now have provisions for one or two lay Benchers, I am not sure of that but if they do not - MR.MARSHALL: They have two. MR. ROBERTS : My learned friend from St. John's East (Mr.Marshall) 1 who is closer to being a Bencher than I am 1 I would 4774

OGcenb er 14 ,19 79 Ta pe t<o. ~898 AH- 3 MR.ROBFRTS: think, says the're are two. I think the t,i ~ ' !'> has come when we ouqht in this Province to !:lave on the boare that certifies the prcfessicnu qualifications at least one suitah~e lay person and I think it would be a very good step if the minister were to bring into the committee in a few minutes an ~ndment simply saying the Lieutenant -Governor in Council may- I would not make it mandatory, I think the doctors would have to be consulted, but we in this House decide, I mean the board e:IQ.sts by virtue of

an act of this House-that the'f.ieutenant-Governo .r in Council 111ay appoint,if there are now six members, may appoint a seventh member of the board who shan be a lay person. I think that would be a very wise amendlnent. It ·has been done in most provinces and surely the time has come hel!e in Flewfoundland and Labrador. Now that we are amendinq the act,this might be the time to do it and I would sugqest to the minister t.'IJ:at a provisicm like that might be a very useful one. It would not require the Cabinet to act if,upon consideration,they found they Should not,but on the other hand it 4~5

Decew~er 14, 1979 Tape No. lo9S SD - l .'!R. E. !<OBERTS: would ~ive ~~em the power to do so if upon consideration they found they should. It is a principle that is well establisiled. I say, if the lawyers, Sir, can accept lay benchers and we have and I think it has been to ~~e advantage of the profession and I would submit to the advantage of the pablic at large,~~en we ought to do the same in respect of the medical profession. But having said that, Sir, we silall supper~ the bill. k'< hON. l1E.'IBER: Hear, h~ar.

On motion, a bill, "An l'.ct To Amend Tn e Medical Act, 1974", read a secane time, ordered referred to a Cornmi ttee of the Whole House p:::asently J:,y leave. (Bill Ho. 54) • Motion, secona reacing of a till, "An Act To Amend The i1emon.al University (Pensions ) .1\ct". (Bill l'io. 53). ~~: (Sil,llllS) :15 • L. VERGI. : The han. :-!inister of i::tl.ucation. Mr. Speaker, tilis bill brings in line the pensions for ti1e university with those for 1;he Public Service.

The amendment first permits an er;,ployee to retire at.: age fifty-five with thirty years service and it increases an<2 iir.proves survivor tenefits,repealing ehe provision that a survivor ~nefit stops upon remarriage of a wido ri and it also raises the interest rates on refunds of contributions. :.m.. SPEAKER: of aelle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: The hon. member fer the Strait Hr. Speaker, the bill certainly is not one to which we would object at all.

First of all, obviously, the university pensions plan ought to be precisely simil3r to that wilich obtains to the rest of the Public :;ervice and tile consequential changes, the rise in the rate of benefits and the rise in the interest rate,are straightforward, as,for that matter is retir~nent at an earlier age. I s~ply have two questions which perhaps the minister could answer in closing the debate 1 assuming no 4776

Dec~~er 14, 1979 'I' ape No. 1899 SD - 2 :•iR . E. ROBERTS: oth ~r ma~ber wish es to speak. First of all, if I retire at age fifty-five with thirty years service, do I get a reduced pension? You know, do I have an option of at six~t-five, which is the normal retir~Eent age for everybody except politicians and judges - I think politicians have no fixed retirement sometimes it comes very quickly;and judges may serve until seventy- five if they wis~ given good health. If I retire at fifty- five instead of sixty-five, do I take a lesser ?ension?

F~d ~~ere, obviously, is an artuarial argument there because, of course, at fifty-five my life expectancy is greater ~,an it would be at sixty­ five and therefore the ~sual provision is that one takes a lesser pension. Is that the case here? MR. W. MARSHALL: changing ~'lat. And my secon<i question is - It is not the case here, It is MR. E. ROBERTS: It is changing that . My friend from Bonavista NOrth (Mr. L. Stirling) says it that a good thing? I mean, are we not loading l!R. L. STIRLING: :•!R. E. ROBERTS: It is an exper~ive thing. Well, okay now, that is the point . then.

If that is not the case we =~ adding a great b•Jrden to the pension plan and I do not know, I mean, can the Public Service retire at fifty-five with the same pension as if they retired at sixty-five? My understanding was they retired at si>_ty with a reduced pension or at sixty-five with a full pension. You know, one could take one's choice as it were. And if you wanted to get out at sixty and take a little lesser pension than you would at sixty-five, you could but, over the actuarial life span, you know, the results would be the same.

And that leads to my second question which perh~ps was answered already; is the Memorial University fund actuarilly sound or are we building up immense pension liabilities? Is this just another drain on the Public Treasury? If so, I would say to the minister that it is wTong to allow a person to retire at fifty-five with thirty years service if that is a better deal than everybody else gets 1 if the result of 477?

December 14, l9i9 so - 3 !"-~ · E . ROBERTS: t:.!1eir ret:.irlng at that eat·ly age ~>ould be to acid a.'l exua !::urd~n onto the Trea.s~y of this Province . ay friend from 9onavisca :«>:th (~ . L. S~linsl nas reaa ~he bill ,wh ~ch is a co~eneable ~~in9, .snci we snoulci a~l cio i1:. because

Section (

b) says, ftShall ::ece:o.ve an i:.-meuiate pension wit:hout. ac t uarial :-eduction." ,,ell noo.:, I t.ninx ~'-l .. t is '"'rong and let tne go ~~at far . I t.lo noc see why, ana perhaps the ~in ister cou ld cell us,if t~is is ~~e stardarcl ~ract.ice of this ?rovince that is o~e thing, 4?78

December 14, 1979 Tape No. 1900 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: but why should I be able to get out at fifty-five with a pension the same as if I served to sixty-five? That does not seem right or fair to me. In any event, Sir, I do not want to debate it at length but,given that, and if that is to produce a burden on the treasury, it is a very bad policy and perhaps we should thi~~ again about it. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : If the hen. minister speaks now,she will close the debate. 11S VERGE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, This bill just simply brings in line the pension plan for the university with that which has been in place for some time for the Public Service. The actuarial - MR. ROBERTS: Do public servants retire at fifty-five without actuarial reduction? MS VERGE: Yes. ---- MR. ROBERTS: Thirty years (inaudible) retiring. MS VERGE: That is after a minimum of thirty years in the Public Service. MR. ROBERTS: You are kidding~ AN HON. MEMBER: Somebody could start at age twenty and retire - MR. ROBERTS: You are kidding. They couJd get a full pension from the public service then. AN RON. MEMBER: I do not know that.

MS VERGE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is the present arrangement with the public servants' pension plan. A public servant may retire at age fifty-five, provided that he or she has a minimum of thirty years service in the public service,and then get a full pension. MR. ROBERTS: When was that adopted? MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid I cannot give the hen. member the - MR. ROBERTS: Does the minister know that that is so or is she just passing on what amounts to hearsay in law? MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I know that this amendment embodied in this bill brings the university pension plan in accordance with 4779

December 14, 1979 Tape No. 1900 NM - 2 MS VERGE: the plan for the oublic service so ~aat this particular aspect of the pension plan has been ~n place for the public servi ~ ~ r~nsion plan. MR. ROBERTS: Could the minister tell us how much extra this change will cost the Province? Because it is Cape St. Mary's pays for all,you know. MS VERGE: figures at my finger tips. MR. ROBERTS: MS VERGE: provide that information. Mr. Speaker, I do not have any cost Have any cost figures been done? And again, Mr. Speaker, I cannot MR. ROBERTS: Has she seen the cost?

If she is asking us to adopt the bill - we will adopt it - but I say to the minister, she knows whether she has or has not had prepared any cost figures? Or is she just buying a pig in a poke? MS VERGE: figures prepared on this - MR. ROBERTS: MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I did not have any cost Did anybody, to the minister's knowledge? - the cost of this amendmen~. To my knowledge,this was one of the considerations when the policy was being formulated. So to reiterate - MR. ROBERTS: The minister is buying a pig in a poke.

MS VERGE: - I would simply say that this is an amendment to bring in line the university pension plan with that which has been in place for the rest of the public service. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Memorial University (Pensions) Act," read a second time, ordeted referred to a Commi .. tee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. >3) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Reorganization Of Certain Government Departments And Matters Related Cr Incidental Thereto." (Bill No. 65). MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. President of the Council. 4780

December 14, 1979 Tape No. 1900 ~I- 3 Mr.

Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to bring in-;o effect the stated policies ·,;hich have been in e!!ect with respect to the alteration in the names of the Department of rores~ Resources and Lands to the Depart.'!lenc of Lands and Forests and the Oepar':r.ient of Tourism, and the De?art:ment of Rural Development as well, the change to formalize the trans£e.rs of jurisdiction and really in effec~: wba-. 1.'!. does it gives legal effect co the policy that was introduced by this administration when it took office to change certain responsibili~ies of chese minisc.ers anc co change their names and I think it: is most necessa-ry that it be put ~~ouc;h , I do not think it needs any prolonged debate but it really re~l ar1.zes the names and the duties that the ministers have been discharging for the past seven or eight months.

MR. SPEA.'<ZR (Simms): M . .'L JAMIESON: The hon. Leader of ~~~ Opposition . Well , Hr. Speaiter, I just "'-ant to say in passing that r~ally this is a completely useless kind of thing. I am not going to arg\!e with it. Bu~: this government seems to have 478:1

December 14, 1979 Tape 1901 EC - 1 MR. JAMIESON: had over the years an almost irresistible tendency to keep shuffling and changing names and making for an enormous amount of confusion. Huf the time over here I never know whether the minister is one thing or whether it has been changed to something else again. And1 quite honesUy, I do not know why we should even waste the time of the House with this kind of bill. But if the government feels that it will make for greater efficiency to put a different kind of label on one of the ministers, competent or incompetent, then that is fine with us. MR.

RJBERTS: A rose by any other name is just- MR. JAMIESON: Still stinks. MR. ROBERTS: Yes. MR. SPE..lU<ER: (Simms) If the hon. the President of the Council speaks now he will close the debate. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I will just end by saying, you know, it was not introduced from the point of view that this was the keynote of - we do not presume that this is the keynote of our Throne Speech for the first session, but it is housekeeping, it is necessary, we have these functions transferred to the various ministers concerned, and the proof of the pudding, of course, is experience, and I think they have shown to the hon. gentlemen opposite and to the public how fitting it was to transfer these particular responsibilities to them.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Re~rganization Of Certain Government Departments And Matters Related Or Incidental Thereto," Bill No. 65, read a second time, ordered referred to a Collllllittee of the Whole House presenUy by leave. MR. MAFSHALL: Order 43. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service (Pensions) Act," (Bill No. 64). MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) DR. J. COLLINS : The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this act is to .mend the Public Service (Pensions) Act for two main objectives.

FirsUy, an agreement has been entered into to bring into the Public service Pension Plan those at the Fisheries College who are under a <1782

December 14, 1979 Tape 1901 EC- 2 DR. J. COLLIHS: pension plan there and also the Newfoundland Hospital Association. Now ~~se pension plans in those institutions do have a pension fund, I think it amounts to something between $25 million and $30 million at the present time. Now this amendment will allow us to bring these pension funds into the Public Service Pension Fund. It will allow us to take over the amounts in those pension funds. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this act also sets up a fund which the Public Service Pension Plan does not presently have, to allow us to put those monies that come from those pension funds in those two organizations, to allow that money to go into the Public Service Pension Fund to be set up rather than going into the Consolidated Revenue funds. So those are the two puzposes • There are a number of features in this amendment that I might just mention briefly. I suppose these could be gone into in Committee too, but just briefly MR. F.OBERrS: Se we will have Committee at second reading. DR. J. COLLINS: Right.

There are certain features in the two organizations' present pension plana that had to be accommodated in the Public Service Pension Plan, and the act does allow that to be done. It also allows the pensioners - not those presently employed and paying into those pension funds in those organizations - it also allows those pensioners now receiving benefits from those funds to continue to receive their pensions, of course, when they come in. Finally, and this is important,

whereas the Public Service Pension Plan will now have a fund attached to it, the fund with regard to the rest of the Public Service Plan will remain dormant until such time as government wishes to fund the whole thing. Only that part of the fund will operate to allow the funds coming from the pension funds from the two organizations I mentioned 1 only those monies will be put into the fund that is now being established for the Public Service Plan. I hope I am clear on that, but I will go over it again if I am not.

Dece mber 1<, 1979 Tape 1901 .ac - J The hon. the member for the MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Strait of Belle Isle, MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speuer, let me begin by saying we sbul vote for the bill, I mean, there is no question about that. And let me go on to say that l do not intend to spe;lk at any length, l;n~t I do want to take just two or three minutes to speak, not so much ~out the de~led provis ,ions of the bill l;lefore the House, which I think are very sensible, It is a very good iciea anci I think it is an equj;table idea it may even be a legally necessary idea in taking over trust funds to have authority to hold, theDI as trust funds, '1784 ·-

December 14, 1979 Tape 1902 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: and people at the Fisheries College or people at the Hospital Association who have contributed or had deductions taken from their salary as contributions to trust funds over the years, you know, it would be terribly, terribly wrong to absorb that money to general revenue and replace it with a chit drawn upon the credit of the Province down the road. So we have no problem with that. I mean, I think that is a wise move.

And I think it is also a good move to have a standardized public service pension plan; and the sa~e plan, as I understand it, will now apply to the Hospital Association, and ~he hospital employees and what have you, as well as the public service. And that is good. I just want to say that if there is one subject that we in this House ought to put some attention on, and I have spoken on it before and I do not want to become a broken record on it, it is this pension situation. Because I will say very briefly, I will say to the Minister of Education (Ms.

Verge) there is an actuarial study, I am quite certain, on the University pension plan. I mean it would be criminally negligent, I am not suggesting a criminal charge, but it would be wrecklessly negligent of the government to have agreed to that change in the University pension plan without an actuarial study, and while I may have my difference of opinion with the way in which Her Majesty's ministers are administering Her Majesty's affairs in this Province, I do not think they are wrecklessly negligent.

I think they have been stupid on occasion, I think they have been wilful on occasion, but they have not been wrecklessly negligent. I would not think that of them. The costs that we are building up, the liabilitie- t~~t are being incurred are, I would think, at least equivalent to a large portion of the Provinical debt of this Province. I have no idea of what the figure is, it could easily be $1,000 million in pension liabilities as of today. In other words 1 if we had to fund our pension plans today,it could easily take $1,000 million.

And I take that figure from tr~n air, but, you know, it would certainly be of 4785

Deca~er 14, 1979 Tape 1902 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: that order 1 I would think. And the minister is nodding acquiescence, I think, not so much with the number as with the fact that there hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars built up in liabilities. Now they might not seem like real debts, but what those liabilities represent, Your Honour, is the hope or the belief, and I think 'belief' would be a better word than 'hope', of thousands of people that when they come to qualify for their pension they will in fact get their pension.

Because what we are saying to the civil servants and everything else, 'you pay into your pension fund or you get your pension rights, and when the time comes to collect ,the Treasury of the Province will bear the burden.' And we have done that. That has been the practice, I suppose, as long as - when did the civil service pension plan come in? Probably back in Commission , there probably was not one before that. And we have done that throughout the piece and we meet the pensions and each year the Minister of Finance brings in an item and there are so many million dollars go to pensions and pensions are paid.

We should not delude ourselves, because the proportion of money that go~s to that pension each year, the proportion of our total expenditures 1 is going to rise dramatically as the medi~1 age in the public service and in the teachers' service rises steadily and dramatically and at the same time we are lowering the pension age, we are lowering to age fifty-five. And I will let the matter go by saying quite simply that these two bills which we have adopted today have probably added another $100 million or $150 million to the liability that this Province assumes in respect to pensions.

I do not object to that 1 to realize it. butr think that we in this Province ought And I would conclude by saying that if there is one subject with respect to the finances of this Province that ·we shou.ld really pay some attention to, and the government should make public some information 'and then see what needs to be done 1 it is this whole question of pension liabilities, because when we talk of the '1786

December 14, 1979 Tape 1902 PK - 3 ~tr.

Roberts: debt of this Province we are talk ing of the funded debt. direct ar.d indirect . 3ut we should always remember that added on to t:hal:l are the pension liabilities which really are the belief and the ~.~pectation of thousands upon thousands of our fel.low Newfoundlanders , including the members of this House - bec aus e chere is a pension plan here chat is not exactly act:uar ially sour:d and is not: funded either- but, you kno'"• the expectation of these fel.lo w Newfoundlanders chat when the time comes to coll ect their pension it will be there for them to collect .

Well 1 I say now , it is there only if the gover nme.'"\t of the day have tbe money to pay it . .t>,nd I !GlOW they will have t:he intention of paying it, and ever y honest desire to pay it:, but I ~o.·oulci say the a.rnolll!ts of money down the road are going t:o be huge and one of the things that ought -::o concern a.ny Hinister of Finance will be. che question of tile day when the pension liabilities start coming in . And I suppose it is what? About twent~( years down the road 1 is it? Which means that most of us in th.i.s 1:lou.se will live to see it .

If you can get it in thirty year s ,and me big move in pensions began in the mid-l960s that: is when people began getting signi£icanc pe."ls ion rights, and when they be9an getting significant salaries. When l became ~linist:er of Health maids in the hospitals were being paid Sl ,S OO a year - it is hard to believ e ! - $1,500 a year is ~1hat they were being paid and that: was considered 4787

Dece~~er 14, 1979 Tape ~o. 1903 D~'i - l ~1R. E. ROBER!'S: :10t a living 1vage but at least a survival "·age for rr.aids and aices in hospitals. Now,I suppose, $6,000 or $7,000 woulc! be ~~e lowest paid and that is well below a living wage, of course. But in about twenty years tl1e chickens are going to start earring horne to roost, Hr. Speaker, and I will say to the minister they are going to be very, very large cilickens indeed and they are going to have o~~ivorous appetite that will have to be fed. Thank you, Sir. But they will lay golden eggs. l'!R.

SPEAKER: (SIMMS) ~~en the han. minister speaks now he will close the detate. Mr. Speaker, just a very few brief remarks. T~1e hen. me!!lber opposite, cf ccur"e, mace some extreirely good points there. I !!light just say that the government is cam!!'i tted to funding the P~lic Service Pension fund 1 whether fully or partially I am not certain ~ow it will be,but certainly ·,.e will be getting into funding in the near future. Government :1as a consultant in place in order to advise on exactly the form cf funding and ~he details on this,or some details,I would expect 1 w~ll cowe out in the coru.ng Budget.

This particular amendment now gives us at least a rrechanisrn for it. ~ie naw need to implement the roechanisrn 1 but at least we now have a mechanisrr. in place which is at least some advance. And1of course, in addition to that it does allow us to live up to the agreements we have roade with these t,.,·o organi- zations. Thank you. On motion, a Bill, "An Act To 1\r.tend The Memorial University (Pensions), Act", read a second tirre, oreerered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 53).

Motion, seco:od reading of a bill, "An Act To ?.emove Anomalies .!l.ne Errors In The Statute Law". (Bill No. 71) HR. SPEAKER: (SUI!o!

S) The hen. Minister of Justice. r1R. G. OTTE~IEEU!ER: Mr. Speaker, this is the kind of bill which is brought in in every session to correct mistakes, to make clarifications consistencies and matters of that nature and covers a fair nurrber of suatues. But I do not think anybody would 'ldsh perhaps any further elaboration on it. ( It is in a sense, a housekeeping bill which in every session a si~ilar one is introduced. 4?88

Decerrber 14, 1979 MR. SPE.AKER: (SI!-'115) Isle. ~JR. E. ROBERTS: Tape No. 1903 The hon. me~ber for the Straits of Belle Mr. Speaker, over the last few years t:.:"le quality of legal draftsmenship in this Province.has been increased si9nifi­ cantly. I do mot mean that to derogate from those persons who drafted legislation in years gone by. I think the expectations that we have an~ the demands upon draftsmen or craftspeople or draftspersons whatever you want to say,have risen as well.

But 1 the fact remains 1 every now and then errors do creep in ar.d as I ~derstand it this is t:.:~e Bill to correct what my friend the Leader of the Opposition calls the commas and serri-colons. It is a necessary bill, I suppose,to tidy t:.:~ings up and all we are d~ing really is 1let it be recorded,since the draftsmen ha~~ to clean up after us all the time 1 in this bill we are cleaning up after the drafts people and' tis well ·'tis so. I think it is notable t:.:~is :i.s one of the longer bills of t.:~is session and I think that says something about somethin9.

Ar.d having said sorr.ething about something 1 and perhaps not much about nothing,or not m~ch about not much, let us let the bill go through second reading. NR. JA.Y.IESON: Would you go over that again? SOME EON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! On motion, a Bill, "An Act To ?.emove Anomalies And Errors In ·I'he Statute Law", read a second time, orce::::ed referred to a Cor.t"ittee of the ~fuol e House presently by leave. (Bill No. 71) MR. HARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker,j~t before I call the next Bill I would lL~e to point out to the member for the Straits of Belle Isle that was not on the list but I have spoken with the member for Grand Bank (:-!r. Thoms) about legal aid. It is Order 46, Bill 67. 11otion, second reading of a bill, ";m Act To Ari>Emd The Legal Aic Act, 1975", (Bill No. 67). ~.R. SPEA!CER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTB~liEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, this ~~endment, its passage would have two effects: one, the provincial director of legal aid would be appointed anc his salarj fixed by the Legal Aid Comrr.ission rather than by the Lieutenant- Governor in Council as is presently the case, anc.,,secondly, that Legal Aid £}789

Dece~~e r 14, ~979 Tape No. 19~3 ccrwr~ssion · ... ·oul.C :::e e~c\l:e:red to ~s tabEsh posts a.'ld ap£)oint staff on t~eir C'.m ,again witho':lt t.'le approval of the cinJ. ster or Lieutena.'lt -Governor in Council. I wocl:C. 1-o:mt v~t t:::a t the basic reason for ~~is is, I suppose, to e~~a.'lce,if one wis hes to ~ut it that way,ti te ineepe:l<:!ence of the conmdss :.o: - no t that anybocy is sug s esting it is not independent · no~< -a..c esse ntially to ellrr.inate sor..e un::ealssaty i;u reaucr acy because the Legal ;.ia 1\ct

section 26 , s ci:

section 3 c;,illes sufficient autho rity t.-:,ere, ''The ruinis ter 1790

December 14, 1979 Tape No. 1904 NM - l MR. OTTENHED1ER: may disprove, or subject to the approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council approve a budget submitted by the commission." So there is a requirement that the yearly budget be approved and that would certainly appear to be quite sufficient. So we think that this will eliminate some ~~ecessary bureaucracy or references back and forth since it is n.ecessary that the Commission does in fact receive approval of their budget on a yearly basis. MR. SPEAl<ER (Simms): The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, we are going to support, of course- well 1 maybe not -this particular amendment. There are a lot of things that one could, at this time take, if one were to take the time to say about legal aid in the Province and how it can be improved. I hope that •' sometime in a future sitting of the House that I will have an opportunity to make some points in connection with this matter. However, in the interest of time, I am going to refrain from doing that at the present time. I learned a lot in the House yesterday.

In speaking responsibly, I think, to legislation that is going through this House,I made eight or ten what I considered to be very worthwhile suggestions of things that we as legislators should look into. Some of them, the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) of course agreed with. But I learned one thing; another member gets up and says that there is dope smoked in Confederation Building, what do we get in the print today but headlines, black borders! Everything that I said, that I thought, you know,I was being construc~iJc, and things that concerned me in connection with it, not one line.

Maybe there is a lesson to be learned there. · \ In the meantime, in connection with this particular amendment, Mr. Speaker, I noticE in the previous legislation that''the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may upon the recommendation of the commission appoint a provincial director of Legal Aid." In this particular l}791

December 14, 1979 Tape No. 1904 NM- 2 MR. THOMS: amendment it is now being made compulsory that the Commission must, the imperative is being used, the imperative "shall" is being used. In the second part of the a!'.endment there it says the Commission may; in the first

part it says the Commission shall. I think probably that the word "may" should be used in both sections instead of "shall" and "may". AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) another (inaudible) act. MR. THOMS: If I may, ~I. Speaker, with the hope of getting at least one amendment in this House moved by the Opposition and approved,I would like to move that the word "shall" be deleted and the word "may" substituted therefore. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a poi~t of order. You know, we value what the hon. member said but the appropriate place to do it, if the hon. ·mem1er could - MR. THOMS: MR. MARSHALL: MR. TH0!1S: MR.

MARSHALL: What about on third reading? No, in Committee. In Committee. But we welcome the suggestion and it is a very reasonable suggestion and we would be delighted to entertain the hon. gentleman's amendment in Committee. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): To the point of order. That is obviously correct. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Legal Aid Act, 1975," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 67). MR. MARSHALL: Order 47, Bill No. 7. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To .Amend The Liquor Control Act, 1973." MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han.

Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this amendment also has two features to it, one is fairly minor~ it just redefines what a meal is in terms of present day cost. The second provision is that the licencing for the retailing of beer, the selling of beer off premises is transferred back to the Liquor Control Board from the Liquor Corporation. There is more 4792

December 14, 1979 Tai?.e No . 1904 NH - 3 OR. J . COLLI NS : of a com:rol feature t:O t:!'lis

whereas the Corporatio n deals more wit:h merchandising . So it: is thought to be mo::e appropr.iate that this should be under the Control Board. So those are essent~ally the two feat:ures in t:his bilL . HR. SPEAKER (Sinuns) : Belle Is;j.e. HR. ROBERTS: The hon . member for t:he Strait of Mr. Speaker, there is certainly nothing in this bill that requires any object:ion from us . You kncw1 a definition of what: a meal .ls is really an unimportant thing although l for one , as ~~ individual, feel that tl793

wecemcer 14, 1979 Tape No. 1905 Su - l 1'1R. E. ROBERTS : if we are going to allow people to drink we should !JOt go through the charade, nor do we, of requiring them to "buy a rreal" at the same tir..e. And I can recall a number of years ago in Nova Scotia, you know, you ha.: to have a sanc.wich, I tl1ink, if you had a beer. I notice my friend from Pleasantville (~tr. J. Dinn) has apparently run into it too;you go in and you get tl1e sandwich but, I mean, if you ever ate it yo~ would just about destroy ~~e shop's entire stock of sandwiches.

It ha~ obviously been around for some considerable t~>e,like in Japan where they do not put menus outside the restaurants, they put coloured reproductions of the kinus of food tl1at are servec. and so you can see •o~ha.t is - probably just as well they do not in some of the restaurants in Newfoundland and throughout Canada,I would guess But having said that, it also makes good sense to let the Liquor Licencing Board,as opposed to the vending corporation, the selling corporation, to let the Licencing Board have the authority to licence that somewhat unusual and perhaps unique category known as Brewers' Agents, and I think that tl1at is the group of people ~~at these amei!<lments are aimed at, the people who see:n to think. tl>at,you know, you are going to get a bonanza if you can sell beer by the case out the backdoor,and I suppose money has been made on it but I understand you have got to sell an awful lot of beer out ~'le backdoor and an awful lot of people are trying to sell that beer so you are really not going to do very much in the way of getting rich on it. however, it is a method that we adopted of distributing beer in this Province and it seems to work fairly well.

It obviously rnak.es sense to p ' _ in the licencing authority all of the licencing functions and to take away from the vending, the selling, the merchandising operation, tlle Newfoundland Liquor Corporation itself, any requirement tlley licence or that tl1ey control the retail sale value. So we support the bill, Sir. 4794

~ece=~r 1~, 1979 Tape )<!) , 1 9<>5 SD - 2 On motion, a bill , "An Act To ;>nene The Li~uor Control Ace , 1973 '', read a se::ond time , ordered refe=ec! to a Co=ictee of the :rnolc r.ou,;e ;,>rasently by leave . (Sill no . 70) . .~o:;ion, second ::-eading of a !>ill, "An Ace To A:nena T:te AeL'I.Oers Of ch~ ::ouse o:: Asse::lbly (Retiri.-:g (Bill :-<o . 68) . tffi . SPEhKER: (Simms) of Selle Isle . :'IR.. E • RODZRTS : The hon . :nem.ber for the St:::dit Mr . Speaker, j~st before ~~at I clunk i c sho uld be noted that I am colo that the hon . ger.tler..an for 'I·e:ra Nova (~l.r . T.

Lush) has been asiceci to do a cele vision intcrvie·... . I ao nope c..Jooac he made ic . SO!o!E !iON. .IE:1ilERS : Hear , hear ! MR. SPEA.'Ci:~: Are yo~ suggesting a ~cc~a l recess or ar.ythi.-:g o: t.'\at. nat:; r e? SO~IE t:o:~ . ,.u:;:taERS : hear , hea r! N?.. SPEAKER: The non . l'residan t oi the Council . ~ . i.; . :·!A .. .'~SHALL : ! nl.ve sc.:ne<::-.ing even :urt:-:er t:;) add, ~k . 3~ea~e.::- .. I jusc cal:.ed a i:>ill t."lat has ::oc bee:. ci.::-culace<i, ic has noc been printed 1 so ! will wi~~draw that Order call . ~IR .

SPEAKE?.: &ill !\0 . 68 . !t has i;een ag:::ced t:o wichdra· .. !oiotion, seco:1d read ing of a hi.ll , "An Ace To Amend The Companie$ Act ". (Bill No . 73) . M:R. SPEA..<£R: : !R. w. 1-'.I'.RSHAU.: The hon . ?~esicent o! the Council . vr,. ~r~ake r, ch~s is a ne cessart amendment to the Companies Act bu t :lot one o f real qreat i mpor t . W~At is does, it permits now for a c:::editor of a company to make a;eplicacion to the court to have ~'lat company r el..tlstaced on t.'le registe r of the Regiscry of Compam.es .

As it presently e xiscs, it is o:lly a sna:eholee: who can ~ade ~~is ap~~icacion anci it is conc~ivable in ~'le ? r esen t situation that a co~any wis~~; really co deprive 4795

.lecer.U:er 14, 1979 •a;:: <! .lo. 1-905 SJ - 3 ~~e creui~ors o: the1r rights could alloo..• the company 1 insteau of !Jeing '•'OUncl up, to be removed irom t.he reqiscer o: ::he cozr.pany itsel: ~~c ::.,er eby ir. effect avoid c.1e i:~-.::iC.encs of ics crecieo::s. 'Ihe ;;:u:pose of c.us !.s co p.1t t.;1e credito rs i:l 1:-'le same posl.tl.on as a snareho:!.der ·.;ould anc ·.;nen ~'1e col"..pany is so rel.nstat.e d then it continues on. . ·lR. SPE:>\Kr.R: (Sims) ~~. L. THO:~: The non . merr~ r :or Grand 2ank • Mr.

Speak~r , as the hon . the ?resident of the Cou."'cil s.Ji<.. - r eall) I ~'1ink it hc:s probal>ly more izl,?Ort.ance c.'lar. he gave it.. I a:u really surprised t.'lat. :.his a:.'er.wr.enc has noc been :uace some tice at;o bec.:luse c..,ere ~ust be a lot of situations in which i1: is bene£icu.al as :ar- as ::.he creditors are conce~ed to have c.~e riqht-or any o~ :: interestea person, really - to take such an action particularly where ~o.e do have a lot of ;;>r ivate co:npanies, really far.ily ow:1ed co:.1panies where you find a wife and the husband and somebody el~e holding ::he sha res . :-:r.

Speake::, '"'e would certainly s:.:?port c.nis, A."'d ?artl.C'..l~a.rly r.ysel: as a la·~yer deali.'\g ·..ri~!': co:r.;;>a:~ies every <iay , .:ert.ainly scppor:: t!us a:r.er..dl:len::. On motion, a bill , "

An Act. To Amend The Companies Act" , read a secor.a ::ime, ordered referred t.o a Committee of t."le ~lhole Hoase presenUy by leave . (Sill !>;o. 73). 1796

December 14,1979 Tape No. 1906 MR.RDBERrS: Mr. Speaker, the minister has given us an explanation and I have read the explanatory notes. I confess it has been some time since I read the bill itself but it does seem to me,and as the minister has explained it to the House, straight­ forward,routine,quite acceptable. The effects that will be achieved by these amen~~nts seem to be acceptable and if I seem to be a little hedging it is simply because I have not had a great deal of time to meditate upon it but based on that and on the minister's assurances we are prepared to accept it.

The Occupational Health and Safety legislation seems to be working fairly well. It is certainly a step forward and a necessary one. There is nothing in this bill that would detract from the way it works and in fact it would either improve the way it works or it would simply reflect changes such as the minister addressed himself to, the bringing together under the Occupational Health, under Dr. Colohan's direction, all of the electrical inspection functions,and that makes some sense too. So we shall support the bill for those reasons and on those understandings.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act,• read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 52) On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on said bills, Mr. Speaker left the Chair, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE A bill, "An Act To Amend The Crown Lands Act." (Bill No. 33). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act, 1978 (No.2)." (Bill No. 63).

Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. '1797

December 14,1979 Tape No. 1906 AH-1 MR. MARSHALL: The bon. Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Oinnl is conferring with the member there just to find out our next proceedings and if it is possible , MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) of Belle Isle. MR. ROBFRTS: The hon. member for the Strait I did not consult with my colleagues but I will take it on my own head to say that for our part we will certainly go ahead and debate the bill. It seems to be straightforward. MR. Ml'.FSHALL : I suggest what we can do in fairness is we will call the bill now and the minister can introduce it and e~plain it.

If there is anything really involved that requires a meeting of the Oppositions caucus or some other matter, then we will have to take another look at it. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act." (Bill No.52) MR.SPEAKER: Manpower. MR.DINN: The bon. Minister of Labour and Mr. Speaker, this is relatively important in that,as hor.. members will know,we transferred the elctrical

section of Hydro, all the electrical inspectors from Hydro to the Occupational Health and Safety Division of Labour and Manpower. The Hydro Act covered electrical inspections and brought in the National Building Code with respect to electrical inspections and what we are doing now is putting that

section under the Occupational Health and Safety Act so when the inspector does do the inspections he is covered by a code and that code is the National Building Code. It is necessary in that the inspectors have been moved 0 Occupational Health and Safety is in one division and we feel that we have to have this amendment in order for them to operate under the Act. AN HON.MEMBER: Hear, hear! Jo1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. 1798

December 14, 1979, Tape 1907, Page 1 -- apb :-IR.CHAIRMAN(Butt): A bill, "ll..n Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act." (Bill No. 52). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Medical Act, 1974." (Bill No. 54). MR. P.OBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I simply want to say on this bill I raised some questions at second reading and the Minister of Health has been kind enough to look into it and - MR. MARSHALL: You have the answer? MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, I have the answer and the Minister of Health and I were both in a state of invin:::ible ignorance and I think everybody else was. It should be recorded that the legislature provided in 1974 for lay members on the Medical Board. I do not know if they have been appointed or not, but certainly the provision is there and it is a wise provision. I doubtless supported it at the time and I do now. I think it is worthy of note, if anybody is noting anything, that nobody in the House was aware of that provision. I certainly was not and I think it is fair to say the minister was not either.

On motion, clause 1, carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Memorial University (Pensions) Act." (Bill No. 53). Motion, that the Conmdttee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act Respecting The Reorganization Of Certain Government Departments And Matters Related Or Incidental Thereto." (Bill No. 65). on motion, clauses 1 through 9, carried. MR. ROBERTS: Do you want to take them by groups? There are over forty clauses in there, take them by groups of ten, Mr. Chairman?

Oeca~e~ 14, 1979, Tape 1907, Page 2 -- apb 1-IR. MARSB.'\LL : MR. ROBERTS: that . through 46 , carried. There are no amendments. No amend'l\er.ts? :r assumed On motion , clauses 20 Notion, that the Committee report having passed the bill 1dthout ame.ndment, carried . A bill, "An A~t To Amend The I>ublic Service (Pensions) Act." (Bill No. 64). On motion, clauses 1 through 3, carried. rm. CHA!~~~CButt): The hon . the !'..i:llster of Finance. DR. C0LLI:NS: Mr . Chair.nan, there is an amendment here that will be moved by my hon. friend but this refers to clause 3. NR. CHAIRNAN: Clau.se 3? DR .

COLLINS: It is on the bottom of page 6 and the top of 7. The amendment is to delete subsection 4 and substitute the followi .ng: "The Auditor General shall audit financial statements submitted und~ subsection 1 and there shall be attached thereto any report that the Auditor General may make in relation to those f inancial statements ." The reason for that is it is throught more appropriate that the Auditor General and only the Auditor General should be auditing the books here . !-IR. ROBERTS: I certainly have no objection.

I would not object to a Chartered Accounta llt doing it, but it is certainly appropriate the l'.uditor General .o it. The atnendmenl: seems quite straightfor,.,ard . carried . 9, carried . on motion, amendment carried. On ~otion, clause 3 as amended, On motion, clauses 4 through

December 14, 1979, Tape 1908, Page 1 -- apb Motion, that the Committee report having passed bill no.