Time: 10:00 a.m . LEGISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MA NI TOBA Friday, 29 February 1980 OPE NIN G PR AY ER by Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Bir tle-Russell): Presenting Peti tions .. Reading and Receiving Peti tions .•• Presenting Re ports by Standing and Special Committees. MI NJSTERIAL STATEMEN'IS AND TABLIN G OF REPO RTS MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Ministe r of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DO WN EY (A rthur): Mr .

Speaker, I wish to table the following annual reports: The annual report of The Milk Control Board for the perioo October 1, 1978, to September 30, 1979 ; the annual report of The Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation for the year ended March 1979 ; the annual report of The Manitoba Agricu ltural Credi t Corporation for the year ended March 31 , 197 9. In addition, Mr. Speaker, I have a further statement to make in regard to The Manitoba Agricultu ral Creo1t Corporation. I have copies here. Mr.

Speaker, the statement I wish to make is to prov1ae some aoo1 tional informa tion to that in the annual report of The Manitoba Agricultu ral Corpora tion. In the first eig ht months of the current fiscal year, Manitoba Agr icultural Credit Corporation has provioeo a total of $2 5,401, 91 4 in the loans to farmers. Of this total, over $20 million was approved for lano purchase, of which $1 2,607,0 00 was providea in the form of direct loans, ano over $7 million in lease convers ions to purchase agree ments. In the latter case, Mr .

Speaker, farmers used the loans to change 195 lano lease agree ments to land purchase agree men ts; in addition, 52 leased properties were purchased by lessee farmers with financing from other sources other than MACC. The heavy use maoe by the Manitoba Credit Corpora tion loans by farmers to purchase land con tracts cons trasts with previous years for two reasons, first the re- instatement of loans to farmers to purchase their own land, and second , provision of the MA CC financing to change MA CC lease agree ments to land purchase agree ments.

These figures indicate that Manitoba Agricul tural Credit Corporation is effectiv ely allowing farmers the opportunity to own the land they farm. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minist er of Municipal Affairs. Paroon me, I apologize. The Hono urable Me mber for St. George. MR. BILLIE URU SKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased that you recognized that there is an opportunity for members on this side to respond to statem ents maoe by the Ministry of the Executive Council. Mr .

Speaker, I welco me the statement of the Minist er of Agricultu re , ano would like to indicate that members on this s1oe, and I believe the people of Mani toba, at this time in our economy, with the interest ra tes the way they are, woulo be very conc erned with the amo unt of capi tal infusion in terms of ou tright purchas ing of lano. One thing that the Minist er did not say wffi that the program that the previous governme nt hao with respect to the Lano Lease Progr a m was that farmers hao an opportunity to purchase that lano. Now what we are finding today, Mr.

Speaker, is, with the escalation of interes t rates, there are many farmers who are in grave oifficulty with respect to the repayment procedures that they have who have borrowed right up to here, Mr. Speaker. Ano now, there is no program, Mr. Speaker, to at least give them the option of staying on the ir lano. What we will see in the next several years, Mr. Speaker, is repossessions, farmers being displaced off their lano becauc;e of high interes t rates, ano we will have no program for havmg farmers ••• MR . SPE AKE R: Oroer please.

Ma y I point out to the honourable member that the opportunity afforded is to seek and to reply to the statement. It is no t an opportunity for a major speech. The Honourable Me mber for St . George. - 191 - __ ,

Friday, 29 Febru ary 198 0 MR . PAW LEY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the honourable member is dealing with the statement precise ly by way of co mment in regard to the very points that were raised in the state ment , and I do believe that cri ti cs must have a degree of latitude in responding to import ant Minis terial positions that are presented to this House. MR . SP EAK ER: The Honou rable Ministe r of Agricultu re on a point of order. MR . DOWN EY: Mr. Speaker, on that same point of order , the accusations that the Me mber for St.

George made that the fact that the people were being forced to buy their land - they are not, in fact, forced to buy their land; they can continue leasing it if they so desire. MR . SP EA K ER: The Honourable Me mber for St. George. MR . UR USKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know that the Minist er of Agr iculture is very uncom fortable in his posi tion. Because what we will be finding, Mr.

Speaker, in the next period of ti me, is that we will have the Manitoba Agr icultural Credit Corporation, or the financial lending insti tutions of this province, going after those farmers who have moved mto the purchasing position with the interest rat es the way they are in this province - the interest rates that the Pr emier of this province talked about when he spoke about the Budget which wasn't being tough enough; the interest rat es which will force many of the farmers of this province into the position of having to go into bankruptcy. MR . SPE AK ER: Order please.

Again I suggest to the honourable member that his reply should be brief and to the point. The Hono urable Me mber for St. George may continue, but if he strays from the repor t I will have to cut him off. MR . UR USKI: Mr. Speaker, in the press release, and I will quote right from the press releas e that the Min ister of Agriculture gave us, he indicat es that 105 land lease agree ments to land purchase agree ments, farmers used loans from MACC, and an addi tional 52 land lease properties were purchased by lessee farmers with financing from sources other than MACC.

Which means that financial sources from all over the province , whether they be from banks, from credi t unions, or from MA CC, have been used. And, Mr. Speaker, that's the tone of my remarks, that while many of the farmers have maoe arrange ments to purchase these lands, there is no program that this govern ment has to assist farmers who are in financial difficulty today, in terms of farmers who have extended their credi t be yond the point of repay ment, and that this govern ment will allow those farmers no t only to flounder, but to go belly up, and to do what?

So that the land is picked up by fewer and fewer farmers, and the land concentration will be taken and put into the hands of less and less people in this province. MR . SPE AK ER: May I remind all members of the Ch amber that Ministerial State ments should be brief and to the point, and the re plies to those state ments should be brie f and to the point. The Honourable Minis ter of Municipal Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I beg to table the 2l st Annual Report of the Municipal Board for the year ending Dece mber 31, 19 79. MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Ministe r of Labour. HON.

KE N Mac MASTER (Tho mp:;on): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the 62nd Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission for the year ending Dece mber 31 , 1979. MR . SPE AK ER: The Hon ourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON. WA RN ER H. JOR GENSON (M orris): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Report of the Qu een's Prin ter for the year ending March 31, 19 79. MR . SPEAK ER: Notices of Motion ••. Intr oduct ion of Bills. - 192 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 IN TRODUCTION OF GUF.STS MR . SPE AK ER: Before we proceed with the Qu estion Pe riod I woula like to bring to the hono urable members' at tention that we have 30 st uaents of Graae VI st anding from Ryerso n School, under the direction of Mr. Dennis Gautron. This schoo l is in the consti tuency of the Honourable Ministe r of Health. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welco me you here this morning. ORAL QUES TIONS MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion. MR . PA WLEY : Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Minis ter responsible for Ph ysical Fitness, reporting to this House on behalf of Weste rn Canaaa Lottery Founaatio n. Can the Minister confirm that, in fact, the branch office of the Western Canadian Lo ttery locatea at Selkirk is being closed down as of June lst? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minis ter of Fitness and Amat eur Sport. HON. RO BE RT (Bob) BAN MAN (La Verendrye): Mr.

Speaker, when the Manitoba Government joinea with the three other western provinces in forming the Western Canaaa Lottery Founaation, there was an agree ment maae that the head office of that particular facilit y would be in Mani toba. At the ti me, the Minis ter in charge of that particular respons ibility here in Manitoba also managea to get the mail oraer group to locate in Selkirk. It was decided at that time that shoula economies be suc h that it was no longer a viable operation, that that would then be closea down.

That does no t affect the operation here in Winnipeg, and it is my understanaing that after the board of direc tors dia ge t toge ther from the four different provinces, it was deciOed to close aown the Selkirk office ana try to acco mmodate as many of the people that are working out there in this facility here in Winnipeg. MR . PA WLEY : Woula the Minis ter inaicate what method has been utilized in order to ensure the relocati on of the approximately 20 em ployees that are presently working in the branc h plant in Selkirk in employment elsewhere? MR . BA NMAN: Mr.

Speaker, as the Hono urable Leader of the Opposi tion probably realizes, the composit ion of the Western Lo tteries Corporat ion is two directors from each province ac ross Canada. In talking to the Manager from the Western Lotteries Foundation, he infor ms me that every effort will be mad e to try and acco mmodate and red eploy the people that are there at present. MR. PA W LEY : Mr.

Speaker, would the Minist er confirm that the press release which was issued yesterday by the Weste rn Canada Lottery Foundation, which indicates that the Winnipeg staff has been working closely with one Anne Klassen, of the Service Em ployees Inte rna tional Union, in aiaing the Selkirk em ployees in finding alternative employment , ei ther in the co mmunity, or poss ibly in the integrat ed prize payout in administration operation in Winnipeg, is totally untrue; that there has been no contac t, no ef fort, to bring about so me relocation through the efforts of working with one Anne Klassen of the Service Em ployees Inte rnational Union.

MR . BANM AN: Mr. Speaker, as I mentionea before, we are concerned about the people that are em ployed out there , but the member has to realize that we are one-q uarter of the overall group that is running this particular lotter y, and that the aecisions are made by the Board of Dire·cto rs. I can check into that particular ques tion that the member raises. However, rm not aware that that has happened. MR. PA WLEY : Mr.

Speaker, further to the Minist er, if in chec king, ana if he disagrees with the assertio n which I maae only a few moments ago, if at the same time then, he would explain or report back to the House by what manner, by what efforts , the Winnipeg staff, the Manager of Western Canada Lottery, has indeed been working "closely w1 th Anne Klassen of the Service Em ployees Inter national Union in aiaing the employees in reloca ting.n - 193 -

Friday, 29 February 19 80 Wou ld the Minis ter be prepared to detail the efforts, the methodS, which have been used in working "clos ely" in his report to the House ? MR. BANMAN : Mr . Speaker, I have no hesitation in checki ng with the General Manager and the Board of Directo rs to see what approach they are using with regard to redeployment of some of these people. MR . SP EA K ER: The Hono urable Me mber for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. rd like address a question to the Ministe r of Health and ask hi m who has re placed Dr.

Leake on the --{In terjectio n)-- Leake has gone , yes - on the review group which is studying the Denti care program for the government and for the Dental Association? MR. SPE AK ER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. I.. R. (Bud) SHE RMAN (F ort Garry): Dr. Leake, has left the province to take a posi tion at the Universit y of Toronto and has been replaced on that co mmittee by Dr . Cliff McCormic k. -- {Inte rjecti on)-- Dr. Cliff McCormi ck, Mr. Speaker. MR. CHER NIACK: A fur ther question, Mr. Speaker. Dr.

Leake, who is considered by the Chairman of that co mmi ttee to be a person most difficult to re place because he was one of the most knowledgeable people on the co mmittee, having now been replaced by a dentist who I think has been with the departm ent for many years, can the Ministe r inform us how long it is that he has now had the interi m repor t, and has he yet rec eived the final report of the co mmittee? MR . SHER MAN: I've had the interim report since Dec e mber, Mr. Speaker, bu t it's only an interi m report and I'm not prepared to act on it .

I expect the final report during the month of March, barring unfores een delays, hopefully during March . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for St. Johns with a final supple mentary. MR . CHER NIACK: Mr. Speaker, M ask the Minister, in view of the fact that the Dental Association has had the interi m re port for so me period of ti me, whether there is any reason at all that the government is not prepared to make us all familiar with the content s of the interi m reports so we would know the direct ion in which the comm ittee is going. MR. SHER MAN: Well, Mr .

Speaker, there is no reason other than one of practicality. The interi m re port is precisely that. It 's based on a half to three-q uarters of a school year's experience, and we wanted to have a full report that was based on a full year's experience because of so me questions that still remain to be answered. I can tell the Hono urable Me mber for St . Johns that the interim report shows a very high utilization rate unoer the MDA . A very im pressive utilization rate that com pares very favourably with the govern me nt plan's utilization rate.

Bu t there are oth er questions that st ill re main to be answered, and I'd like to have a year's experience be fore drawing any conclusions. MR. CHER NIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to ask the Ho nourable Minis ter, in relation to the interi m report which he has received and which has already been re portea - and I infor med the Minister that it has been co mmented on publicly by the Mani toba Den tal Associa tion at its convention in Brandon early this month, in the month of February - whether he does not feel that the co mments he has already made have been a sum marizea report of what appears to be the interi m report dealing with a com parison between the Dental Association and the government plan?

Wo uld it not be better, I ask hi m again, for the report interim, as it is, to be released now ra ther than piecem eal as was done at the convent ion and by the Minist er .•. MR . SPE AK ER: Order pl ease. The question is repetitive. The Ho nourable Me mber for Inkster. - 194 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 MR . SID NEY GR E EN: Mr . Speaker, I would like to direc t a question to the Min ister to whom the Manitoba Forestry Resou rces reports. Is it the Ministe r of Mines? Jus t as well. I wonder if the Minist er can advise me, with respect to nego tiations with any persons interested in Manitoba Forestry Resou rces , whether the Ministe r intendS to value that co mplex at zero dollars and turn it over on the basis that it is a co mplete waste of money? MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Ministe r of Finance. HO N. DONALD W. CRAIK (Ri el): Mr .

Speaker, the brief answer to the member's quest ion is no. MR. GR EEN: Mr. Speaker, can the Minist er assure us that in any transaction involving that asset, he will try to obtain for it, - and I'm no t suggesting that he se ll it, bu t if he does , which the government has indica ted it wishes to do - would he assure the House that he will obtain for it marke t value at its opti mum operating posi tion, that is, on the basis of it possibly i:roducing $20 million a year? MR . CRAIK: Mr .

Speaker, I can advise the member that we have been looking at methods by which we might look at enhancing and expanding, and perhap;; making so me major changes to the operat ion at ManFor because of the problems that appear to be developing with regards to unbleached kraft . We have also been looking at various options in <10ing that, whether it's some form of verti cal integrat ion or otherwise, with those operating in the field at the present time. A number of options have been looked at.

Wit h regards to the evaluation of the company its elf, we have engaged the Woods Gordon Firm to provide us with so me cons ulting advice in that re gard. I think that there is a pretty good possibility that there is opportunity for enhancement and expansion of that plant in the future. We will be able to answer that question, know more speci fically perhap;; so me time in the next few months, som e time during 198 0. In the meanti me, Mr. Speaker, I can advise you, or advise the House, that the ManFor report for the last fiscal year has just been rece ived this week.

I'll be tabling it in the House next week, and any further infor mation may be gleaned from it that will be helpful for the member. MR. SPE AK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Inkster with a final supple mentary. MR . GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, with regard to , again, possible evaluations of ManFor , may I then be assured that if ManFor , as an asset of the province, is capable of producing $2 0 million in revenue per year on the amount that has been invested, that it will not be cons idered by the i:rovince to be worth zero dollars? MR. SP EA K ER: The questio n is hypotheti cal. The Honourable Me mber for Inkster.

MR . GR EE N: Mr. Speaker, I am merely asking the Honourable Minister, on the basis of its present generation, which is merely maintaining its cash flow, will the Ministe r ass ure us that it will not be valued at zero dollars? MR . CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I answered the earlier question, we have been seeking so me advice on the options that are available, and that, of course, includes the member's question. The question that has to be addressed is the value in the market place, primarily, of the ca pabilities of the corporation.

And we have, as I have indicatea to the member, engaged some outside consul tants to advise us in that reg ard. MR . SP EA K ER: The Hono urable Member for Elmwood. MR . RUSSE LL DOE R N: Mr. Speaker, Pd like to direct a quest ion to the Minis ter of Transportation. Since today is the deadline for motor vehicle insurance ana regis tration, can the Minister indicat e whether there have been any co mputer problems in the Mo tor Vehic le Branch? MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Min ister of Transportation. HON. DO N ORCHARD (Pembina): Not that I am aware of, Mr. Speaker. - 195 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 MR . DOERN: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister then explain how at least one ci tizen of Manitoba rece ived ten notices to renew his insurance, of which I have proof? MR . ORCHAR D: Mr. Speaker, in the world of electronic auto mation, upon occasion a bu tton may be pressed which kicks out ten notices instead of one, and it's entirely beyond the contro l of myself because the machine misfuncti ons. MR . SP EA K ER: The Hono urable Me mber for Elmwood with a final su pplementary. MR . DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister whether the rash of resi gnations in MP IC has adVersely affect ed the operations of the Motor Vehi cle Branch? MR . ORCHAR D: No, Mr. Speaker. MR . SP EA K ER: The Hono urable Me mber for St. George. MR . UR USKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. fd like to direct this ques tion to the Minist er of Health. Yeste rday, the Ministe r, in his re marks on the Throne Speech, gave this Le gislature a list of i:rojects dealing with personal care home const ru ction in the i:rovince.

I'd like to ask the Ministe r if he has given a govern ment co mmit ment to the effect that there will be an additional 40 beds of personal care on the west side of the Interlake if the Interlake Board accept s the present government proposal. MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . SHERMA N: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure that the Lakeshore District Health Syste m Board accept s the i:roposal. I hope that they do. I've discussed it with the princi pals of that board and we will be meeting in March to finalize the whole health syste m upgrading program for the Interla ke. MR . UR USKI: Mr.

Speaker, the Minist er has side-stepped my quest ion. I want to know whether he has given a co mmitme nt that this govern ment will build 40 more personal care beds, 20 in Eriksdale and 20 in the LDG of Grahamdale, in addi tion to the 40 that he has co mmitted his govern ment to do so, if they accept the ludricous position of the govern ment in building a 2 0-bed unit in an area where there is no hospi tal. MR . SP EA K ER: The quest ion is repe titive. The Honourable Me mber for Ste. Rose. MR . A. R. (Pete) AD AM: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minist er responsible for ManFor relating from a question raise d by the Me mber for Inks ter, I would ask the Ministe r to confirm if equipment belonging to ManFor valued at a million or so dollars has been sold for a sma ll fracti on of that cost already. MR. SPE AK ER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, not that I'm aware of, but if the member could perhaps be more specifi c, I could make an enquiry. MR. AD AM: Mr.

Speaker, it 's my understanding that some equipment has been sold; equipment that is quite costly and valuable has been sold for a pittance in com parison to the cost . I would ask the Minis ter to perhaps make enquir ies, be cause this is the information that I have received from The Pas. MR . CR AIK: Mr. Speaker, I'm adVise d that the only known transfer of equipment was equipment that was transferred to Saunders Aircraft. What may have become of it subsequent to the Saunders Aircraft fiasco, I can't tell you. I presume it went into receive rshi p with the rest of the moth balls there.

But again, if the member could adVise me specif ically of what he is referring to, perhapg even in writing, I'll make a spec ifi c enquiry for him. - 196 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 MR . SP EA K ER: The Honourable Me mber for Rupertsland. MR . HAR VE Y BOSTR OM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Mims ter res ponsible for the Fish eries.

I'd like to ask the Ministe r if he can clear up the con fusion . that's obvious in the minds of the fisher men regarding his proposed fishing policy, and speci fically I would ask him to advise the fishermen, through this House , if he intenas to imple ment the proposed new policy which he had indicat ed to them in a letter last Fall, as originally schedu led for June lst, I believe; or will he accept the advice and request of the fisher men that any changes in the fishing re gulations be suspended for at least one year while they have the opportunity to review them and make their rec ommendations to the department and to the Minis ter.

MR . SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Minist er of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RAN SOM (Souris-Kil larney): Mr. Speaker, that's essentia lly the sa me question that was placed by the Honourable Me mber for The Pas last week, and I think we dealt with it quite adequately. There see ms to be more confusio n on the Opposi t10n benches than there is in the minds of the fisher men.

I think we have made it qu ite clear to the fisher men what the posi tion of the govern ment is and that we are undertaking discu ssions , consultations with the fishermen; having said that we would not at tempt any implementation on the lst of June, then that automat ically means that it 's im possible to make any changes in the system until the sum mer season has at leas t expired. In the meanti me, we expect to have further meaningful consu ltat ion with the fishermen. MR. SPE AK ER: The Ho nourable Me mber for Rupert sland with a supplementary. MR. BOSTROM : Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the Ministe r if he could give so me guarantee, or at least some indication to the fisher men, that he will not make changes in the fishing regulations and in the fishing polici es which are cont rary to their wishes and con trary to the views of fisher men that are being expressed to hi m in the meetings that his officials are holding with the fishermen, and also by way of representa t10ns that fisher men make to hi m. Will he accept their views and take their aovice into cons ideration when changing any fishing regulations? MR. RANS OM: Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Me mber for Rupertsl and has essentially ou tlined the course of events which we have been pursuing. He may or may no t be aw are that last Octobe r when we undertook the initial discussion of proposed policy changes that I brought in representat ives f rom all the fisherm en's grou(l> in the pro vince and paid their expenses to come to Winnipeg, in order that I could meet with them to explain the basic princi ples of the proposed polici es to them, get their reac tion at that time, assure them that we would be consul ting with them.

We subseq uently organized some 40 meetings throughout the co mmunities where fishing takes place. We made it clear to them that although it was our preference that we would be able to make changes by the lst of June, that we would have been able to take care of the conce rns of the fishermen pri or to that time.

As it happened, of course, the dicussion of the policies with the fisher men beca me so mewhat clouded on the basis of the intervention of members opposite and ot hers during the federal election ca mpaign, so that many of the fisher men had great di fficulty in appreciating the princi ples and the proposal that we were putting forward, Mr. Speaker. And so in view of that difficulty, then we have said that we will have to take much longer to talk with the fishermen and consult with the m.

But I think the Honourable Member for Ruper tsland must recogn ize that the responsib ility for the ma nage ment of a resource, whether it's fish, fores try, minerals, or whatever , lies with the govern ment and that res ponsibility can no t or should not be transferred to any ot her group. MR. SPE AK ER : The Honourable Me mber for Ruper tsland with a final supple mentary. MR . BOSTROM : Mr.

Speaker, just as an aside, I would like to ask the Minister, if he really believes the last statement he made, why he transferred the responsib ility of managing the fores try resources on the east side of Lake Winnipeg to the Abitibi Paper Company? Mr. Speaker, to follow my question on the Fisheries, can the Minist er now confir m, in view of his stat ements to the House today, that given that the fishermen have com pletely, - 197 -

Friday, 29 Febru ary 198 0 absolutely ana unequ ivocally reject ed proposed policies that he has put forward on the fishmg regulations and new fishing policies regarding leasing and selling of li cences, can he now confirm that these at least will be rejected ana will not form any part of any new fishing policy that he will be bringing in? MR . RAN SOM: No, Mr. Speaker; I am certain of where the confusion exists.

First of all, I must point out to the honourable member that the res ponsibilities for manage ment of the forests, any responsibility that was transferred to Abi tibi Pu lp ana Pa per, were sti pulated by this government as to what those res ponsibilities were. The decisio ns are no t left to the pulp ana paper co mpany. It aoes not cons titute transferrring the responsib ility for the manage ment of the resou rce. It is si mply one further example of the misleading state me nts the honourable members want to make. Wh en he says, Mr.

Speaker, that the fisher men have totally rejected the proposals, I must tell the honourable member that he is wrong and that if he will re fer, for example, to perhaps the most celebrated case, is that of Moose Lake where the bana saia that they would not allow the federal Conservative member to ca mpaign in their co mmunity because of the fishing policies. Unfortunately the com munity haa not haa the policies explamea to them, Mr.

Speaker, at that time, but when my st aff went in ana explained the policies to the m, then the administra tor, one Vi ctor Martm, is quoted in the Winnipeg Free Pr ess as saying, "once we had these things explained to us we saw that there were so me gooa points in it, ana if the Min ister was prepared to delay imple mentation we coula work something out." The Chief, Ji m Tobacco, from Moose Lake responded si milarly ana said, ''we think that if the Min ister shows some flexibility, we'll be able to work out a satisfact ory policy." Mr. Speaker, that to me does no t represent total rejection. MR .

SPEAK ER: The Hon ourable Me mber for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is a follow-up to the questions asked by the Me mber for Ruper tsland. Can the Minist er responsible for the fishing indus try in the province confirm that the co mmunity of Sout h lnaian Lake, totally ana uneq uivocally rejected the Minister's policy, saying that it woula result very qu ickly in fishing being taken out of the hands of local residents and put into the hands of outside rs ana fishing co mpanies?

Can he confirm that they, in a vo te in that co mmuni ty, 100 percent of the fishermen present at that meeting reject ed the Ministe r's poliCies? MR . SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Mmister of Natural Resources. MR. RAN SOM : Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I have no hesi tation in reporting what took place at a co mmunity meeting, bu t what the honourable member must also ack nowlege is, that given the concern that a co mmunity has if there are ten different proposals ana they are aissatisfiea with one of those proposals, then they have rejected the whole package.

Of cours e the intention of the meeting was not one of holding votes on whether or no t the provinc ial government's manage ment policies are good, baa, or indifferent. The object of holding the meeting was to explain those policies to the co mmunity, find out what their conce rns were and when we met here in Oc tober with the fisher men it was made clear to them that we wanted to know what their conce rns were and that we woula attempt to acc ommodate those concerns.

Ana in some cases we fully recogn1ze a that perhaps the fishery that exists in one co mmunity must be treated differently than a fishery that exists in another . When we get into the esti mates, Mr. Speaker, we will be able to outline this policy in more detail ana we will find out just what parts of it that the honourable members opposite seem to object to. Unfortunately there is not ti me in the Qu estion Pe riod to get into that sort of detail. MR. COWA N: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I must pomt out to the Mmister that it is not the members opposite that are objecting to the policie s so much as it is the members of the co mmunity. Can the Mi nister also confirm that the com munit y of Pukatawagan ana also nu merous ot her co mmuni ties in northern Manitoba totally reject ed the Minister' s proposals and policies and asked that the Minist er not implement those poliCies in any form whatsoever, as they are fearful of what it would do to the local fishing co mmunity ana industry in northern Manitoba. Can he confirm that? Or perhaps an easier way of raising the qu estion, - 198 -

Friaay, 29 February 1980 Mr. Speaker, to shorten the Minister's answer, can he tell us which co mmuni ties m northern Mani toba acceptea the policy? MR . RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, again the confusion seems to exist in the minas of the members opposi te as to the proposals that were being maae. First of all, last week we heara fro m the Me mber for The Pa s that reg ulat10ns were being i mposea or whether regulations woula be wi tharawn, there has been no thing to ao with regulat10ns.

There have been proposals outlinea to the fisher men, and within those proposals there are several aifferent point s, which I propose to aebate in ae tail when we get into the esti mates. The intention in going to co mmunities was simply to ge t a reaction, ana in many cases the reaction fro m the co mmunity was that they aian't like the package as It was presentea . The intentio n was never that the package, as such , woula go forwara without moaifications that were brought about as a result of conce rns expressea by the co mmunity.

There are many thmgs about the policy which when inaiviauals are askea , obviously, I am certain they will ag ree to. When you talk about the viability of the fishing inaustry ana the opportunity for ma1viaual people to earn a satisfactory level of ret urn, those surely are no t things that people object to, or having long-term access as opposea to the sort of permit which can be canc ellea on a few months notic e. MR. SPE AK ER: The Ho nourable Me mber for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR . CO WA N: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, as there is confusion, no t only among this siae of the House because of the inaaequate and contraai ctory st ate ments by the Ministe r, bu t also in the fishing co mmunities ana in northern Manitoba, can the Mimster indi ca te for the benefi t of this siae of the Ho use, for the benefi t of northern fisher men, ana for the benefi t of his compat riots on his side of the house, if the province is contem plating any change in the provincial role in particip ation in the FFM C? MR. RAN SOM : Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we had a meeting with the federal Ministe r i n December and with the Min isters from the other jurisai ctions involvea in the Freshwater Corporation, at which we disc ussea the possible ways of making the cor poration more functional; that would serve the interest s of the fisher men better, or to make changes in the marketing syste m that would serve the fishermen bette r.

At that meeting the aifferent gover nments involved put forwara som e sugges tions that they wantea a techni cal co mmittee to investi gate, to assess the impact of, and that subse quen tly it was the inten tion that those parti cipa ting governments would meet again in March to make some final aecision as to what if any changes could be rec ommeneded in the st ructu re of the cor poratwn. Given the intervening circu mstances now, rm not sure whether that meeting will be able to go forwara in March or no t. MR. SPE AK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Minneaosa. MR . TH OMA S BLAK E (M innedosa): Mr.

Speaker, my ques tion is to the Attorne y-General. I wonaer if the At torney-G eneral coula inform .the House the stat us of extraai tion proceeaings of Mess ers Engle and Frieaman from Israel to Canada. MR . SP EA K ER: The Honourable Attorn ey-General. HON. GE RALD W. J. ME RCIE R (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, with respect to that matter, I am informea that on Monday of this week the Supreme Court of Israel handea aown its decis ion on an app eal by Mr. Engle and Mr.

Friedman from the extradition order from the district cour t in Tel Aviv in April of 1979, and that the Supreme Court unanimously dismis sea the appeal of bo th the appellates. The state prosecu tor for Israel apparently askea for the arrest of both Mr. Engle and Mr. Friedman on the spot. However the cour t grantea an adjourn ment of their arrest to this com ing Monaay, when they are to place themselves in the hands of the authorit ies.

I have been informea through the st ate prosecut or for Israe l that both have filed a peti tion in the Supreme Court for an order of habeas cor pus to demana of the Minist er of Citizenship of Israel that he state the grounas upon which he refused to grant the m Citizenship when they first applied. After that matter is dealt with, the extraai tion order will be subject to an executive order from the government in Israel, Mr. Speaker, and that matter hope fully will be com pletea within approximately 60 days. - 199 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 MR. SP EAK ER: The Hono urable Ministe r of Finance. MR . CR AIK: Mr. Speaker, subsequent to a question yesterday regarding the gas line explosion, I think it's relevant to report that the problem has not yet been rectified. There has been some holdup and some problems in the repair. The flows in the Trans- Canada Pi peline are at about two-thirds their normal flow. There is no problems with regards , again, to the firm load cus to mers. There st ill is a [:t'Oblem that is expected to be rectified shortly with the interrup tible supply . MR .

SPE AK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Brandon East. MR . LEO N AR D S. EVA NS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Ministe r of Eco nomic Development, and ask the Honourable Minister whether he can adVise whether he has received the market and perfor mance feasibility study on helicopters from the aircra ft consul ting firm of McConachie and Associates, which was co mmissioned by him, I believe, to conduct this study. MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Min ister of Econ omic Development. HON. J. FR ANK JOHNS'IO N (Sturgeon Creek): Mr.

Speaker, it was co mmissioned by us, be ing partly paid for by the federal govern ment and ourselves, and to answer the question, no, we haven't received it. MR. EVA NS: I wonder if the Min ister could advise the House when he anticip a tes the receipt of this re port, and also, could he adVise whether, in the meanti me, Mr. Speaker, members of his department or himself are continuing contact and li aison with Mr . Hans Christian Heyde cke, President of the Manitoba Aircraft Corpora tion, which I believe is promoting this particular helicopter manufacturing facility for Gi mli? MR . JO HNS'IO N: Mr.

Speaker, we are hoping to rec e ive that consultan ts' report in the middle of March . We haven't go t any definit e elate and we want it as soon as possible. As far as the member's quest ion as to whether we are working with the people he me ntions, our departme nt is working with them and many others, to ass ist the m, the same as we would anybody else. No more or no less. MR . SPE AK ER: The Ho nourable Me mber for Brandon Eas t with a final supple mentary. MR. EV A NS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Ministe r can adVise whether this parti cular compa ny, the Manit oba Aircraft Corporat ion, I believe it is called, has yet raised any private venture capi tal, or whether it is still, what it refers to itself as, a paper co mpany? MR . JOHNSTO N: Mr. Speaker, Pm not aware of the co mpany's position or efforts to raise money , or how muc h they have raised. The province of Mani toba will not be mterested unless they have got enough money to do the {:l'oject on their own.

We are there to ass ist, not put money into businesses ; we will have discussions with them , and we won't waste $40 million of the people's money in a helico pter bu;; iness. MR . SP EA K ER: The Honourable Me mber for Wellington. MR . BRIAN CORRIN: Mr . Speaker, thank you for recognizing me, bu t my colleague from Transcona has been st anding a much longer time than I and I'll cede the floor in his favour. MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And I'll thank my colleague for his eyesight. Mr .

Speaker, my question is directed to the Minist er of Health. Yesterday the Ministe r of Health put forward the Conse rvative government's positi on that private profi t-making personal care homes or nursing ho mes are important to the health care system of Manitoba, at least in the Conservative govern ment's eyes. In view of this posit10n, is it the - 200 -

Friday, 29 Febru ary 1980 Conservative govern ment's inten tion to introduce private profit-making hospi tals m the health care syst em of Manitoba? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Ministe r of Health. MR . SHER MAN: No, Mr. Speaker, bu t I would ask the Honourable Me mber for Transcona, who does he think subsidize s CMHC, for example? At the base of his quest10n is the implication that the taxpayers are being asked to carry this ••• MR . SP EAK ER: Order please. May I suggest to the Honourable Ministe r that Question Pe riod is the time for members to ask questions of the Ministry, not the reverse .

The Honourable Me mber for Transcona. MR . PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since the Min ister believes that hospi tals must be public, while nursing homes may be private and profit- oriented , does this mean that the Minist er believes that there is such a difference in the care provided to people in nursmg home s, and these are primarily elderly people, chronically ill or disabled people, that would allow these somewhat powerless people in soci ety to be exploited for profi t purposes? MR . SHE RM AN: Mr.

Speaker, as long as the Hono urable Me mber for Transcona persists in this vein, I ask him, does he think doctors should be salaried, therefore that there should be no profi t motive whatever in the health care syst em? MR . PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, in a year and a half I'll be on that side of the House and then he can ask me the questio ns. Right now I'd ask him to answer mine. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minist er of Health. I would remind the members that we have se ven of the 14 federal sea ts. MR. SPE AK ER: Order please. MR . PARASIUK: I'd like to get in my final supplementary, Sir. MR .

SPE AKE R: Order please. The honourable member will have ti me for one supplementary before the Question Pe riod is over. MR . PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minist er of Health, are people in nursing homes seco nd-class ci tizens in the eyes of the Conservative govern ment , or will they be provided with the same type of health care delivery as those people in hospi tals right now? MR. SHERMA N: Mr.

Speaker, no personal care home, no nu rsing home in this province, whether propriet ary or non-propriet ary, will be permitted to operate or licensed to operate without meeting the mini mum standa rds laid down by the Mani toba Health Services Com mission. THRON E SP EE CH DE BATE MR . SPEAK ER: Orders of the day. On the proposed motion of the Hono urable Me mber for River Heig hts and the amendment of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the Member for Point Douglas has five minute s. MR . DONALD MALI NOW SKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish I could have 50 minutes. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to apologize to the two honourable members of the Chamber; when I spoke yesterday, by mistake I omit ted the m, so today I would like to congratulate the Honourable Minister of Munic ipal Affairs, the Honourable Me mber for Swan River , and wish hi m well in his department, and also best wishes to the Honourable Me mber for Virden, who will be res ponsible, as a Deputy Chairman of the House Committees up to 12:00 midnight, like he said yesterday. Mr.

Speaker, my colleague, the Honourable Lead er of the Official Opposition, m his dynamic debate, illustrated very clearly the differences between our ec onomies and other provinces in the west and eas t, and he especially emphasizes the exporting departme nt. Mr. Speaker, for example, British Columbia is exporting timber. Alberta is exporting oil. Saskatchewan is exporting potash. Ontario is exporting manufactured goods. Wha t has Manitoba to ex port? Mr. Speaker, Manitoba has been ex porting for the last two years a - 201 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 young, well-educat ed people. Those people were born and educated here in Mani toba, Mr. Speaker. They would have loved to stay here. Here is their ho me, their families, their friends. But because of su ch poor leadership, they were, and st ill are, forced to leave this province. And, as a result, Mr. Speaker, we lost over 25, 000 young , well-educat ed Manitobans. The Progr essive Conservative Pa rty ha s a fear of Crown corporations. Their fear is reflect ed by their num erous give-away of viable co rpora tions. Many of my cons tituent s are constantly asking me why they are doing so.

The only answer, Mr. Speaker, I have for them is that the Tories are incapable of handling corpora tions by the mselves. This is the only answer I have. As a good exa mple of this, Mr. Speaker, you will reme mber what kind of deal former Premier of Mani toba Dut'f Roblin did for Churchill Forest Industries. He couldn't find, among a million Mani tobans, or millions of Canadians - anyone - to run the business. "W hy?" you might ask, Mr. Speaker. Because he didn't trust the capabilities of his own people. He found an expert and guardian for Mani toban taxpayers' money - you know where, Mr.

Speaker? - in Switzerland. The present Pre mier of Manitoba is desperately looking for another saviour and guardian for Mc Kenzie Seeds, for Flyer Indus try, for Autopac , for ManFor in The Pas, for Medicare, and many many other co mpanies. Mr. Speaker, the hist ory repeats itself. Our Pri me Minister, Mr. Joe Clark, be fore he became Pri me Ministe r of Canada, also looked desperately in different parts of the world for a guardian to run Pet ro Canada because he didn't know how. Mr .

Speaker, I can assure our Pre mier, and his colleagues, that after the next provincial election, at leas t half of them will aisappear from this Chamber. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Inkster. MR . GRE EN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable members for giving me the occasion to rise during the Throne Speech Debate. I had expected that another member woula be speaking earlier, but I'm just as happy to have the floor earlier ra ther than later. I do, Mr.

Speaker, wish to congr atulate firstly - and I think that is a responsib ility of all of us - the new members who have entered the Chamber: The Me mber for Fort Rouge, the Me mber for River Heig hts and the Me mber for Ross mere. I think that one of the things about ge tting into the Chamber is that partisan politics outside of it always leaas one to believe that everybody on the other side is somehow wearing a black hat, and everybody on your side is wearing a white hat.

And I can tell the honourable members - and I say this without exception - that I believe every person that has entered this Chamber has been entered on the basis that he since rely wishes to improve - he or she - condi tions for the people in the Province of Manitoba; that they all have att ribu tes which have co mmended themselves to their electo rate; they have somethi ng which has deserved that support; and, Mr.

Speaker, that the only differences we have, bo th with respect to the personal qualities tha t resulted in us ge tting elected , or the positions that we are taking, are one of how to do it, no t whether or not we want to do it. And I accept the fact, Mr. Speaker, that all of the new members who have entered have entered on that basis. That's certa inly been my experience in the House from the moment that I entered the Chamber. Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to see that my friend, the Me mber for St. Ma tthews, is not here, because I did intend to twit him.

Perhaps so me of his fellow members can give him the message with regard to the fact that somehow, capi ta1 punishment is desired by the majority of people, and that if only a Conserva tive govern ment would be elected , im mediately we would start lopping heads or conducting executions in a way which would satisfy the populace. And I wanted to twit hi m about the fact that Margaret Thatche r's Conservative MP s voted against capi tal punishment. It could not pass the British Ho use of Parlia ment, which had a majority of Conservative MP s, which is why I say, Mr.

Speaker, that you can't sell a person short merely because he's Conservative; that the fact is that even Conservatives will do that kind of thing; and the fact is - and I've been partisan on this - that New Democ rats can vote the other way. Both are st ill doing what they think is right. But my learned friend, the Me mber for St. Matthews, was of the opmion that the people want this, and that, given the correct representatives, they will vote for it. It cer tamly didn't happen in that area. And I would think, Mr.

Speaker, that after listening to what the Me mber for Wolseley said yesterday abou t the administration of justic e - how it can work, what can happen - and I'm no t talking with respect to any parti cular case - that one should be very wary about saying - 202 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 that you are going to permit the State to execute some body. Because, Mr. Speaker, they did it with Sakko and Vanzetti , and they co mmitted legal murder with regard to those two people. And if every ot her argu ment was tossed aside, let us reme mber that putting power into the hands of an administ rat ion to kill so mebody is like putting a power into the hanas of any admin istra tion; it is a dangerous thing and it is better to err on the side of being careful rather than on the side of making that type of adminis tration.

I didn't thmk that I'd have to say that to Conservatives, bu t apparently with capi tal punishme nt it's an exception . Mr. Speaker, I'm st anding in the House in a so mewhat different posi tion than I have stood in many of the previous years, and I've also heard, Mr. Speaker, from time to ti me, with some surprise myself, that I have been so mehow misinte rpreted, that my real positio ns are not what they have been led to believe. Whet her the consistency is the product of a small mind or not, Mr.

Speaker - and if it is then I am going to have to plead guilty - that I cannot taking a different position on any substantial issue that has ever been before the House betw een entering the House in 1969 and co ming here in 1980 , nor can I remember taking a different position before I go t into the House in 19 66, nor can I re member, Mr. Speaker, taking a different posi tion outside of the House. So the people who say that consistency is the product of a small mind, and use that phrase as being in some way debilitating of a person, they've got a good example in me because, Mr.

Speaker - I say this and I say it without fear of great cont radi ction - my position has been cons istent throughout and, Mr. Speaker, I have not changed my positio n one iota. And, Mr. Speaker, that was my particular problem because with any difficulty that I had - and I don't intend to go into all of them - I knew that the posi tions that I were taking were positions which were embraced, endorsed, lauded - nay not lauded but extolled - by the New Democ rati c Pa rty , and those posit ions I have not changed one iota and I do no t think that I se e myself ch anging. And that was my difficulty, Mr.

Speaker, when I knew and came to the conc lusion, and that has to be my judgme nt , that I could not continue wi thin the New De mocrati c Party because of the fact that • . • Not that I did not want to be there bu t that the activist s aid no t want me there, that I felt, Mr. Speaker, that I had no place to go, that I was a New De mocrat, ana that's, Mr. Speaker, why I present myself to this Chamber. --(In terjectio n)-- Before you say "co me" , you will have to hear me out. I present myself to this Chamber, Mr.

Speaker, and will present myself to the electorate of the province of Manitoba as an Inde pendent New Democ rat. Ana so that there is no aiff1culty m people understanding what that means or what I stana for, I will repeat it , Mr. Speaker, and I aon't want you to accuse me of repeti tion because there see ms to be so me misunders tanding. But I will repeat it ana then I ask the people of this Ho use ana of this Cha mber to go back through the years and see the quotatio ns.

I've no t really been known as silent Syd, but I've put the positions on many oc casions and they are there, ana I am st ill here ana my positions remain the.same , Mr. Speaker. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I take the position that there should be a con tinued aevelopment of basi c social, educa tional ana recrea tional services, available to all ci tizens irrespective of inaiviaual neeas, a contin ual development as society grows. Seconaly, Mr.

Speaker, that publi c ownership is a use ful and necessary tool in econo mic development ana that it is particularly relevant in the resource inaustry, in which all future developments should have a public com ponent. Thirdly, Mr. Speaker, that society should aim at the obje ctive of reducing disparity of inco me and that the objective of removing poverty should no t be based on sex , creed , colour, relig ion or ancestry. Now, Mr. Speaker, those are my basic positions in soci et y's objectives. On the fiscal side, Mr.

Speaker, I have taken the position - and I believe it is corre ct - that you will find many people in government who will tell you how to spend money, that you will find very few who will tell you how to raise money or how to save money; and that fiscal respons ibility depenas ulti mately on having as much income as you spend revenue and that you cannot reduce taxes if you need publi c revenu e, and any reduction in tax should be based on eliminating a tax which is not based upon ability to pay and replacing it by a tax which is based on abil ity to pay.

And any government which reduces taxes merely so that have less revenue is acting irrespon sibly ana will not be able, Mr. Speaker, to acco mp lish its objective. And I have he ara the Keynesian eco no mics, Mr. Speaker, and really Keynes was no t wrong; Keynes was right. Keynes didn't say anything that Jos eph didn't say. Jos eph said that you put away a surplus in good years and you distribute it in bad years, and Keynes said seven good years and seven bad years. Ana Keynes saia that in perioas of prosperity you reduce spending - 203 -

Friday, 29 February 19 80 and put money away and in periods of lower econo mic activity you spend money, and that the spending then takes place in order to sti mulate the eco nomy. But, Mr. Speaker, whatever Keynes said, the only people who I have heard expound Keynes have said spend in good years and spend in bad years. They have never yet found the good years in which you don't spend . That's the difficulty with Keyn esian economics ; you can't find a person, you have not found a government who will say ''no" and, Mr.

Speaker, the trick of good government is to look at your objectives and be able to say "no" far more often than you say "yes". That has always been my position, Mr. Speaker, on fiscal matters; that re mains my posi tion. With respe ct , Mr. Speaker, to my position on employer/ employee relations, the members were in this House be tween 1966 and 1969; they said I was proposing radical labour- oriented conclus ions. I said at the time, Mr. Speaker, and I repeat, I want nothing for the working man that I do not want for myself.

I do not want anything for the em ployee, any rest rictio ns on the employee, that I am not prepared to have apply to myself, and on that basis, Mr. Speaker, that the difficulty with em ployer/em ployee rela tions in our society was not that there wasn't laws favouring employees but that there were rest rictive laws putting employees in positions that nobody else in society was subject to, no tably two things, Mr.

Speaker: (1 ) that employees should have the right to walk down the street with a sign like anybody else, that if that em ployee walks down the st reet with a si gn and says, "Dont't buy from this store because my em ployer is unfair", he should no more be rest ri cted than that we should have been prevented from walking in front of a sto re that se lls Russian goods and say , "Don't buy from this store bec ause the Russians have invaded Afgh anistan." But I tell the Me mber for River Heights, all the Tories voted against that motion, all of them. On the other hand, Mr.

Speaker, I said no citize n in society except employees has ever been told by a Judge to go to work or go to jail, nobody. And I pride myself, Mr. Speaker, that the New De mocratic Pa rty government made that not a proposit ion of Manitoba, we passed legislat ion whereby it can't happen, at leas t it shouldn't happen, bo th with re gard to walking down the stre ets, Mr. Speaker, and with regara to back-to-work injunctions.

And the greatest pride that I have in being in government is that for ei ght years the province of Manitoba governed under conditions where cit izens of society were free, and it did not result in chaos. It did no t result in violence. It resulted in com pari tive mdustrial st ability ra ther than nonstability and the Conser vatives, to their credi t - and I credit the Minis ter of Labo ur - have not changed those things. The pressure will be brought upon hi m by bo th sides to pass laws favouring the one or the laws favouring the other. He hasn't done it. As long, Mr.

Speaker, as he maintains a non-interven tionist posi tion, provided he re moves further restrictions which apply to employees, I am going to support that kind of labour position because it's the position, Mr. Speaker, that I took when I was on opposi tion, when I was in gover nment and which I will take in the future. But, Mr. Speaker, Pve been told that my particular position puts me in a difficult position, it makes me ineffective. Well that's a judgment, Mr. Speaker, that we all have to take. But there has been, Mr. Speaker, som e effective ness.

For two years, for two years more and nay more than two years, even when we were in government, there were pressures brought to the extent that we argued about it conti nually that our govern ment should bring in a law that says yes we believe in police men's strikes, we believe in nurses' st rikes - and when I say strikes I mean the right to stop work, which I believe that everybody has, and you cannot take away from anybody . We believe that hydro peop le can go on st rike, that they can say they don't want to work if they don't like their ter ms and condi tions of employment.

We say that farmers can say that they wo n't plant because they don't believe what the price is going to be. We say that bankers, presently consti tuted, have a right to not loan money if they don't like the interes t rate. But that was good for everybody except em ployees.

Now the New De mocrati c Pa rty, in the past 2 1/ 2 years , has said they are going to pursue a policy that yes, nurses have the right to qui t work, but I do no t have the ri ght, and the government has not the rig ht to hire people to do the work that they are doing, to look after the aged people in the hospital while they are bargaining about their con ditions. Po lice men have the right to strike, bu t the government cannot hire people to do that while they are on st rike. And I go further, Mr. Speaker.

They say that you could have a crac kpo t - and don't tell me that there are no crac kpots - they believe in publi c ownership, but they say that you can have some body veto the operation of a public plant because he says, no matter how many people on the picke t line, they are still on st rike and they have gone on st rike eig ht months ago. And I - 204 -

Friday, 2 9 February 1980 am no t talking hypothet ically. It has happened. And anybody who believes in public ownership, canno t believe that an em ployer is veto from opera tion on the basis or a collect ive bargaining dispute. Mr. Speaker, a lot of this is ideological. I have been as strong a supporter as people who have been out of work as anybody in our group. I say that they have the right to; I say that in almost every case I will conde mn an employer, although I'm willing to look and see what his proble m is.

And the Griffin Steel problem is a perfect example of when the union, and not the employer, cause d the problem. I will conde mn an employer who does not engage in that type of bargaining, but I will not pass a law saying that he is prohibited from doing it. Mr . Speaker, how effective is the Me mber for Ink ster now that he has left his group? Effect ive to some extent. There are nu merous resolutions that have been put forward by members of this side. Nu merous resolutions. There is no resolution saying that this House adopt the position that a •.• --{In terjectio n)-- Mr.

Speaker, I tell you that this has been pursued and pursued and pursued -{Inte rjection) -- of course not. Mr. Speaker, my learned friend says, "not in the Chamber". If he is going to say that , he knows that what he is saying does not represent what happened. It has been argued for two years. There's no such resolution. Where's the resolution that was promised to the labour movement that we are going to try to get the government to pass a law, or we will pursue a law saying that nobody will be able to hire so mebody while there is a lawful strike. Effecti ve to so me extent , and Mr.

Speaker , it goes further than that. I intend to try to be very effective. I believe that what I did was effective, and I intend to try to be very effective, Mr. Speaker, in making the New Democ ratic Party a party which, when it is elected into government, will govern in accordance to those princi ples that lured me, Mr. Speaker, into the New Democrati c Party. Never in the House, never in the party, did I ever tell the labour movement that I would do so mething which I didn't do.

Never did I - you look at every resolution that I have put on the basis of em ployees which were supported by the party and supported by the labour movement, every single one of them was enacted mto law and presented as a resolution in the House. What auplicity , Mr. Speaker. One thing that I have never done, I have never exerci sed any duplici ty, or misrepres entation to anyone, let alone to my friends in the labour movement , and they know it, Mr. Speaker. And I have many friends in the labour movement, despi te what people will somehow try to lead you to believe. Mr. Speaker, that's my position.

I intend to try to be an effecti ve public re presenta tive in the areas which lured me, Mr. Speaker, to the New De mocratic Par ty, and which I am going to try to see that the New Democ rati c Party , as I did when I was in government, pursue when they are in government, be cause Mr. Speaker, one thing that has been said in this House, which my learned friends are going to have to swallow, is that they almost certainly are going to lose the next election, and the next government of the province of Manitoba will be a New Democ ratic Party government. That is almost certa inly, Mr. Speaker, to be the case.

The only way that that will not happen that I can presently perceive, and of course you can't perceive everything, is that if the New Democ ratic Party goes to the public and says to the people of Manitoba, when we come into gove rn ment, we are going to pass a law that says that no em ploy er has the ri ght to hire anybody during the existence of a collective bargaining dispute. That's the only basis , Mr. Speaker, upon which the New Democratic Party could lose the next election. But Mr. Speaker, that is not enough, and if we New De mocrats will look to our own rheto ric , we will see that that is not enough.

Mr. Speaker , we've seen what happens; it is a tragedy, or at least it's a misfortune. Tragedy is too strong a word. But it's a misfortune to the advocates of the new de mocracy that they do not ge t elec ted to govern. Every time we lose, we don't like it. It is as big a misfortune or worse if they are elected to govern and govern badly . Well, not in govern ment if they are pursuing a position, they are at least ga ining support for a particular political philosophy. If they go into government and govern badly, then they irreparably damage the support for that position.

And the New Democra ts know better than anybody else that bad governments can be elected. Mr. Speaker, the rhetoric that we have underst ood, ever since we were in politics, led us to say that. We said, the Cons ervatives ge t defeated, the Liberals ge t elected. Not because the Liberals are good , bu t because the Conservatives are baa. And when the Liberals are defeat ed, the Cons ervatives get elected. Not because the Cons ervatives are good, bu t because the Liberals are bad.

When did it ever more dra matically show itself - and I warn my honourable friends who take grea t stock in it, than in the last 12 months the Liberals were in govern ment, bad gover nment, Mr. Speaker. They were defea ted, and Mr. Crosbie put it well, no t so much because the Tories were elected , but because the Liberals were baa. And they went m, Mr. Speaker, and in six months, they showed that they were far worse than the Liberals. And - 20 5 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 what happened, Mr. Speaker? The Liberals got elected. Are my friends saying that the Liberals got elected becatEe they were a good govern ment? They were elected, Mr. Speaker, because the Tories were a bad government. And the New De mocrats, in Manit oba, I suggest to you , will be elected because the Tories are a bad govern ment, Mr. Speaker. What my learned friend, the Me mber for El mwood said, what happened to Clark can happen to Lyon. Wha t happened in Ott awa could happen in Mani toba. Are the New De mocrats suggesting that Trudeau was elected because he's bet ter than the Tories.

He's worse than the Tories. He's worse than the Tories, Mr. Speaker. And the New Democra ts have to carry that (X'oblem in themselves. They will be elected because the Tories are giving bad government. There's almost no doubt about that, Mr. Speaker. I've indicated what the doubt could be, bu t that won't make them, Mr. Speaker, that won't make them a good govern ment. And I say, Mr. Speaker, that I want to look to my own particular position as trying, Mr. Speaker, to make that New Democ ratic Party govern ment , when it is elected , as it most certa inly will be - because I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that they will turn their backs on that resolution, that they will not go to the public and say that the New Democ ratic Party will enact a law that says that when policemen don't work, we can't hire anybody to do so the job - and to tha t extent, Mr. Speaker, I will have made them a bette r go vernment. And I will say, Mr. Speaker, that I will take that credit , be cause I know that it is due. No matter what they say, Mr. Speaker, they will know that it is due. --(In terject ion)-- oh, certainly I'm not alone, my friend, the Me mber for St . Boniface, I know that I'm no t alone.

I know that a major ity of this group would not pass suc h legisla tion, but they went to the labour movement and promised it. Mr. Speaker, it was passed at a conven tion, ana the people who knew that they were going to be put in this si tuation, did not get up, and do the things that they had to ao. And Mr. Speaker, there wa a reason for it. You know, Mr. Martin says that I am paranoid. Mr. Dennis Mc Dermot came to Manitoba two years ago and said that they are going to rid the New De mocrat ic Party policymakers ana labour questions of its eggheads.

Ana the purpose of that resolution was not to have a platform to go to the people of Manitoba and say that we are going to make it impossible to treat people in the hospi tal when nurses stop wock, it was to accom plish what it has accom plished . And it's no longer a great issue with the New De mocratic Party. It was an issue for 2 1/2 years. It is no longer an issue, and I ask honourable members to say what has changed. Mr. Speaker, I want to go to my friends, the Tories. The Tories have brought in a Throne Speech, which Mr. Speaker, is pathetic. It demonst rates, Mr.

Speaker, that they are runn ing scared, that they are grasping for straws. And the reason that they do it, Mr. Speaker, is they start ed off as a bad govern ment. They had good rheto ric, too, and I've told my friends that I have some sym pathy with Conser vatis m i:roperly expressed. But when they came into government, they decided that they have to take the easy way out , that ra ther than say that they're going to govern in accordance with Conserv ative policy, they're going to blame it on a non-existent $225 million defic it which they are going to reduce. Mr.

Speaker, the mathematics of the Minist er of Finance would do envy to what usea to be called the Stalin schoo l of falsif ica tion. He said they're going to reduce the debt , going reduce the deficit. Well, le t's me see if my friend, Mr. Orchard, is going to adopt that mathematics. You cannot - exctEe me, the Me mber for Pe mbina. You canno t reduce a d ebt by adding up defic its. And the Conservatives have (X'oduced a defici t every year and the debt has gone up, it has not gone down. So what they now say, Mr.

Speaker, is not that we were going to reduce the debt, bu t we were going to reduce the amount by which the government ran a defici t in its last year of opera tion. What a different si tuation. How ao you accom moaate yourself, Mr . Speaker, to that sit uation? Now they say that instead of having a budge t where the expenditures over revenues was $120 million, ours was $90 million, and that shows that we have kept our pro mise. Mr. Speaker, that shows the lack of conviction that the Conser vatives have had ever since they have come into government. They have not governed in acco rdance with any conviction.

They are running scared, Mr. Speaker, and they are going to run themselves right out of the govern ment of the province of Manitoba, which is where they belong, which is where they belong, Mr. Speaker. And where they will go - just as, Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives in Ottawa were defeated becatEe they gave bad govern ment, this govern ment will be defeated becat5e it gave bad govern ment. - 20 6 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 Wh oever , Mr. Speaker --(I nterjection)- why were we aefeated? Because we gave baa government. There is absolutely no doubt about that, Mr. Speaker. Absolutely no doubt that the New De mocra tic Party, had it continued to give sound government, would not have been defeated, so if you want that conce ssion, su re, we have to do be tter. I said that, -(Interjection)- well, we weren't quite as bad as that. We weren't quite as bad as them, I will re tain that muc h partisanship. But Mr. Speaker, that's no different than what happened in Ottawa.

The Trudeau government was defeated because they gave baa govern ment, but they were elected because the Conservatives gave govern ment that was bad ana the people couldn't take it and elected the only alternative. And in Manit oba, Mr . Speaker, we happen to be in that fortunate positi on in which we cri ticized the Liberals and the Conservatives over all of the years when I en tered politics, that they vote for them because they are the alternative, no t because they are proposing some thing different. And there fore I say to the New De mocrats, Mr. Speaker, so mething di fferent has to be proposed.

And I want to deal with that Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker. Never be fore - and if we aid it - I asked the Minist er to re mind me, and point it out to me - and I will aamit that it was the wrong thing to do, never be fore have I heard Her Majesty 's representative conauct an argu ment for the government's policy rather than outlining it . My friends, the Minister of Finance and the First Ministe r must think they have awfully poor credibility with the people of Mani toba, and they're right.

And therefore, they thought, well if we can have some guy si tting on the Throne, speaking as Her Majesty , and saying the same things as the people won't believe us for saying, maybe they'll believe the Qu een. Maybe they'll believe the Qu een. Now, Mr. Speaker, what they 've done is not make themselves more credible, they've made the Qu een less credible. They have maae the Qu een less credible, ana they've put all that junk into the Throne Speech.

All tha t argu ment about how this had to be done to save the province, and things of that nature - tr ipe that we've listenea to coming from members of the other side, and which they've chosen to put through Her Majes ty. Never before, Mr. Speaker, have we seen a more cons istent reje ction; it's a rejectionist government. This governme nt has a problem. It lacks convi ction in its own credibili ty . So it says, the way in which we acco mplish this, is we appoint a task force, and the task force will co me and make it easie r to do some thing that we don't have the courage to say we want to ao by ourselves.

That's been their position, and each ti me, Mr. Speaker. It's not me who have defeated these task forces, it's been the Tories. The first task force, Mr. Speaker, was the former Me mber for River Heig hts' task force. Look at that task force and see that it has almost been totally reject ed , and I said it would be. I said that the heavy artillery against the Spivak Task Force would no t be the front bench of this party, the front bench of that party. So they threw it out. And it's almost, Mr.

Speaker, like the story that I was once personally involved in, about a people who were having a meeting, and they were quite agi tated , arguing about so mething. Somebody said, "Throw him ou t", and the other fellows looked at hi m and continued the discussion. A few minutes later, the same guy said, "Throw hi m out", and people looked at him, and a few minutes later the discussion continued. Finally, again, he said, "Throw him out", and the fellow si tting next to hi m said, "Wh at's the matter wi th you, he's no t here." He said, "Bring him in and throw hi m out!" So what did they say.

They saiO, "Bring in this task force, ana then throw it out." And then they appointed, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Burns. Ana he was going to be a task force on automobile insurance. And what did they do, Mr. Speaker? They got it in, and they threw it out. And then, Mr. Speaker, they got the Ministe r who used to be in charge of the Development Corporat ion, asked the Development Corporation, tell him what he shoula do about Tantalum. And they saia, "Sell our share." Well, Mr. Speaker, they took that rec om mendation, and they threw it out. But Mr.

Speaker, the bigges t repudiation of all, the most momentous repudiation - and on which I will reserve a speech in this Legislature, one speech 1s all I think it aeserves - is that to tal repudiation of the Tritsch ler Report, be cause that report consti tu ted a real problem for the Conservative adminis tration. A real problem. Mr. Speaker, the Ministe r of Finance has sug gested to the people of Manitoba that we members on this siae cost the people of Manitoba $600 million; six to ei ght, he said , these are conserva tive esti mates.

Inaeed , they are Progre ssive Conservative esti mates, and calculations, and mathematics, all belonging to the textbooks of the Craik school of falsi fication, Mr. Speaker. And all of which, Mr. Speaker, the Mi nister said he tried to base on the Tritschler Report. - 20 7 -

Fri<Jay, 29 February 1980 I asked the Minis ter an innocent question to<Jay; it had nothing to do with ManFor, I tell you now. The Minister says, no, we're not going to value ManFor at ze ro, it cost $18 0 million, it might produce som e day $20 million a year, why would any sane person value it at zero? No, si r, we're going to see what it's worth to the syst em. Mr. Speaker, to ge t to �8 million, the Minis ter has valued Jenpeg, which produces $20 million of elect rici ty, which is sold every year, co mes off our hydro bills, as zero. That's what he's done, he has valued it at zero.

Nothing that anybody else would do, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I see your warning, your admoni tion, and thank you very much. Mr . Speaker, the members on that other side of the House said that by producing Lake Winni peg regulation be fore the Ch urchill River Divers ion, there was a loss of �600 million. That gave rise to the task force. That was the whole position, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have read the Tritsc hler Report. And for the First Minister, who says that I didn't read it, I can tell him that although he may ge t A for reading, he ge ts zero for co mprehension. It is nowhere in the report, no where.

As a matter of fact, Mr. Justice Tri tschler says that there is very little difference demonstrated by the fact, financially, of proceeding one way, or proceeding the other way. And Mr. Speaker, do you know what the learned Judg e says that we should have done? I wish the former Minister of Mines, the Honourable for Lakeside, was here. He said that when we came into government in 1969, we should have postponed all hydro development, built a thermal plant , and studied what we should have done. Mr. Speaker, if we would have done that, we would have been defeated in 19 73, and deser vedly so, Mr. Speaker.

And everybody knows it. Mr . Speaker, I am one of the people who is alleged to have been part of the hydro posi tion. I was with regard to Lake Winnipeg regula tion. But I walk down the streets, nobody says to me, you cos t me $600 million. They don't believe it. We 've sat through this Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker. They don't unders tand it, Mr. Speaker. The fact is that we've sa t through the Throne Speech and barely a ripple from that side abou t the Tritsc hler Report. They don't, Mr. Speaker , accept wha t is in that report, and for good reason. So Mr.

Speaker, the last repudiation is the Tritsc hler Report, and they say now, that we have to proceed with hydro-ele ct ric development , not only for the elect ricity , but for the sti mulation to the economy, no t on the basis of producing the least cost of hydro, which is the act , they put in the mouth of the Queen, a violation of the Hydro Act. Mr. Speaker, twisting the facts for nine years I listened to those guys on that side say that we weren't performing hydro in acco rdance with the Act. Then they say that they're going to do it for the purpose of st i mulating economic activity, Mr.

Speaker, and they have to. They have to because the Conservatives have des troyed eco no mic activity within our province. And Mr. Speaker, that has been the nature of the Conservative administration. Well, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friends think that they are going to ge t so me so lace out of my position. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that my position is intended, and I hope it will, and I believe it can, to disc redi t the government in power, to make for the elect ion of a New De mocrati c Party govern ment. But I say, Mr. Speaker, that that's not the end.

The election of a New De mocrat ic Party govern ment which governs badly will do harm to the new democracy , Mr. Speaker, to the princi ples that I was attracted to on the basis of the word "socia lis m", and the meaning of socia lism , which has never been a problem to me, bu t now when I hear what is spouted in the name of so cialis m I shudder , Mr. Speaker. Are those the ideas that are attached to this word which have no thing to do wi th socia lism? --(In terject ion)- Pardon me? No, Mr. Speaker.

As a matter of fact it is closer to Liberalism and the Liberals will ruin your party; it's the Liberals in your party which will cause you to govern badly and the Liberals and the New De mocrats that will cause them to govern badly, because that is not the position upon which you have gained support for Conservatis m nor is it the posit ion upon which the new de mocracy has gained in support for pursuing that position. Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a motion. MR . SPE AK ER: The honourable member's ti me is up. MR . GREEN: I just wish to put the motion, Mr. Speaker. So I move, Mr.

Speaker, sec onded by the Hon ourable Me mber for Winnipeg Centre, that the amendment be further amended by adding thereto the following: And this House declares its want of confidence in the present government for the following reasons: - 208 -

Friaay, 29 February 1980

(1) The government has made no progress in the airection of proviaing socially financea and universally acce ss ible post-seco ndary eauca tion and chila care; (2 ) The government is embarking on a program of using public funds to support private business;

(3) The government has ana intends to continue the privateering of viable publicly-owned co mmercial enterprises suc h as Tantallum Mines, Cybershare and Dormona Indust ry, which had failed in the private se ctor ana haa been made viable through public effort and initiative;

(4) The govern ment is failing to take aavantage of opportunities available for public investme nt and ownershi p in the reso urce-based indus tries ana has insteaa ae monstratea its abject dependence on private com panies for mining exploration ana development. MOTIO N presented on the amendment. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minist er of Finance. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker , let me join the ot hers in the House who have stood, Mr. Speaker, and congr atulatea you on your resum ption of responsibilit ies in this sitting of the Legislature and again, Mr.

Speaker, I woula join many who have said that over the perioa of ti me which you have occupied this responsib ility that you have brought a high degree of respect for your office and you've deliverea your aecisio ns with im partiality ana, Mr. Speaker, have contributed greatly to the operation of the House; a House, Mr. Speaker, which I aon't think it 's easy to adjudicate over at times and is perha� more aifficult than it may have been at some other ti mes in his tory. Le t me also, at this time, first of all wish well and congra tulations to the three new members of the House.

On our own siae, of course, the Me mber for River Heights, who I have the distinct pleasure of having as a legislative assistant at the present ti me and who is helping me grea tly, in tha t role. Also, of course, to the Me mber for Ross mere, who has joined us on the opposi tion benches of the New Democrati c Party , and the Member for Fort Rouge , who now occupies her posi tion representing that consti tuency in place of the rec ently departea member to the federal scene. I gather that she is probably in no aanger , si tting amongst the group where she is.

I no tice that the predecesso r in her position has referred to her associa tes over there as eunuchs and, Mr. Speaker, if you take that literally, I expect that she is fairly safe over there. However, if she gets into any difficulty there may be more dangerous places to be occupying in this House so perha� you will have to stay in your present seat. Mr .

Speaker, also to the people who have moved on to take other responsibilities in the opera tion of the Chamber, colleagues who have joinea the Cabinet as well, I offer well wishes and I know from experience, as many acro ss the way know, that the assum ption of these res ponsibilities does place de mands on the individuals that isn't probably gener ally appreciat ed. It is interesting to look at the ranks across the way. There has been a substantial change si nce a year ago.

The new Leader of the Opposition has haa his position ratified by his Par ty at open conven tion ana is now the fully qualified, rati fied Leader of the Opposition, and I wish him a very long tenure in that posi tion. I think he'll have no trouble occupying it for a great many years.

I noti ce with some interest that with the abdication of the Me mber for Inkster from his usual posi tion on the right hand side of the Leader of the Opposi tion that he has now movea over to another occupying spo t in this House and the Me mber for Brandon Eas t, who has now moved over to si t beside the Leader of the Opposi tion on his right. Perha� it 's more accurate to say, Mr. Speaker, th at the Leader of the Opposit ion is si tting on the left of the Member for Brandon Eas t and, Mr.

Speaker, that puts the Leader of the Opposition in an extre mely precarious position bec ause , if he adheres and listens to the economic admonitions of the Me mber for Brandon East, I fear that he will be ge tting into more troubles than he is alreaay in at the present ti me. The members of the Opposition have made some ot her ch anges. I think it is interesting to see the Me mber for Inkster si tting next to the Me mber for St. Boni face. They haven't in the past been known ••• --(Inte rjection)- We ll, the Me mber for St . Johns, Mr. Speaker, sa ys that we put him there and of course the Me mber for St.

Johns is absolutely right in that case. The New De mocrati c Party did its utmost to keep the Me mber for In kster off the front bench - 209 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 and it was with the support of the Ho use Leader on the government si<le that one of the sen ior ranking people in this Legislature was placed in a position where he shoula be , with his statu re in this House, Mr. Speaker. So with the in vitation of the Me mber for St .

Johns to co mment on that, I want to put it on the record that we felt that the Me mber for Inks ter ha<l the right to sit on the front benches and the Ho use Leader on the government si ae upon his rec omm endation said that he felt in the House layout that is the way it ought to be, ana received unanimous support in that. Ana aga in let me say that I found it very surprising that the New De mocratic Party woula try ana deny the Me mber for Inks ter a position on the front bench of this House. I don't agree with the Me mber for Inkster on many many things.

We 've ha<l many many battles, many gooa batt les and --(In terjectio n)-- That's right --(I nterjection)-- Well, the Me mber for Inkste r is now with us, Mr. Speaker; we've just been re marking. From the seat across the way, I was re minded that the government had been res ponsible for you occupying that seat an<l I sai<l tha t's true, I want it to go on the rec ora that the member's former party <li<l its utmost to see tha t he <lid not ge t a front seat in the Legislature. And we're qui te happy to reco gnize his co mpetence, no t his beliefs, Mr.

Speaker, bu t his right as a senior member of this House an<l a co.ntributor to an opposi tion to a government and to an opposi tion to occupy the position in this House that he des erves. Mind you, we may be sorry we <li<l place him there, Mr. Speaker, but that's the way it goes. Of course the Opposi tion's side may also be sorry to have the Me mber for Inkster sitting where he is. Ho wever, he is sitting juxtaposea next to the Me mber for St. Boni face and I think that ce rtainly brings about a interesting a<lmixture of philosophies.

And the longer we are in this House the more you ten<l to remem ber and should forge t, I suppose, but the Member for St. Boni face , when I first came into this House, I think I sat where the Me mber for River Heig hts is now sit ting, watched the Me mber for St. Boniface across the secon<l row deliver of his orations. He was the most right-wing member that, in my knowledge sat in the Ho use at the time, 196 6, when I first sat in this Legislature along with a number of ot her members. That was my im pression of the Me mber for St. Boni face.

He was probably, in economic philosophy terms, the most hard righ t-wing person in this Legislat ure. Th ere may have been a few ot hers, Mr. Speaker, bu t at least they didn't show their colours quite as voci ferously as he did. So then he movea over, of course, with the New De mocratic Party and after a st or my marriage he is st ill with them back on the opposi te side of the House bu t si tting, I think, probably unco mfortably there.

At some ti me I think he probably has to be honest enough to ask himself whether or no t by his actio ns he brought about the so rt of goals that he originally advocatea - aid to se parate schools , the oth er battles that were brought forth, the intro<lucti on on a more equi table basis of the Frenc h language into the operations of gover nment. Mr . Speaker, I shoul<ln't say govern ment bu t general recognition, in a routine way, of the position of the Frenc h language in our province, whether in fact that his machinat ions and mano euvres around have in fact brought about that to any large exten t.

If he aoes feel he has, I would have to say that I think that un<ler the various Conservative gover nments that have occupied the government benches, that perha!;l'> there has been a shift, a reco gnition that woula have taken place more equitably an<l at a degree of pace that the people of Manitoba are preparea, willing and anxious to adopt , Mr. Speaker, and the frontal at tack of the Me mber for St. Boni face has had very li ttle to do wi th that happening. There has been more happen under Conser vative governme nts in this province in that regara than any govern ment of which he was ever a part of. Mr .

Speaker, so me of the things that I want to talk about aeal with the figures that have been placea before this House and it's no t without a <legree of concern that we see the <listortions take place on the facts regarding the operat ion of the govern ment and on the functions that are really outsi<le of government , the performance of the Mani toba eco nomy. And there seems to be a very det er mine<l effort across the way, by the Opposition, to say almost anything, whether it's true or untrue, ana in many cases the state ments are untrue with regar<l to the performance of the eco nomy. A lot of this, Mr.

Speaker, I have to say I think is ai<led and abetted by some in the media who see m to feel that the doom ana gloom syndro me that is ty pifie<l by the position of many in the opposition ought also to be promulgated as a public mood, through the pages of the newspaper or whatever. And it is alarming because govern ments don't <lo everything ana no govern ment, I don't think, has ever sai<l that the federal gove rnment - this government certainly hasn't sai<l the fe<leral government - the pro vinc ial govern ment or any ot her govern ment is solely responsible for the operation and functioning of an economy. Mr.

Speaker, I want to deal with a number of the things that were raised in the Throne Speech and which have been sai<l from time to time insi<le and outside of this House. - 210 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 The Leader of the Opposit ion spoke at some length about the economy ana about some of the real problems. Abou t real growth he maae this kina of a co mment : He triea to make a totally spec ious argu ment about pointing out that there is a big aifference between our gross provincial product in cu rrent dollars ana the gross provincial product in aetlated 1971 aollars. Now, I want to go back.

He got pretty exercisea about the fact he wanted to show that there was a disto rt ion when the government said that a milestone had been reached and the gross provincial proauct had exceedea $1 0 billion. He was terribly worried ana excitea about that and wanted to ge t across to the public that there was so mething qui te dishonest about saying that. So, I want to quote to you from the 1973 Throne Speech in which it says, "Durmg 1972 the provincial ec onom y maintained the strong ana buoyant growth pattern that has characterized our development in recent years.

My Mini sters have esti mated that the total value of the goods and services produced in Mani toba and the total inco me derived from this output increased to $4.4 billion in the year just past. They have informed me that their forecast s indicate to tal provincial output in 1973 may grow even faster than it did in the past year, ana should approach $5 billion by year-ena." Now, Mr. Speaker, if $5 billion was a milestone which was worth mentioning, is not $1 0 billion also a milestone ? Mr. Speaker, it's the sa me basi s, it's the sa me statist ics, they're available to everybody.

But he, Sir, wants to point out that there is somet hing wrong by doing it. I dare say that the ou tput has been going up practically every year. If it wasn't , then there woula be somethi ng seri ously wrong. But he seemea to feel that there was somet hing very wrong, that this ought to be pointed out. Now let me go on just a bit . Despi te his concern about these dollar figures, there was no re ference in the '73 speech about the real increase involved. That's what was missing in athe '73 speec h.

It was high that year because there were agri cultura l condi tions and the general strengthening of the Canadian econ omy, but from '74 to '77, the real growth rate ranged from under one percent to just over two percent. Now, in the 1978 rate , the growth rate on a comparable basis here was about three percent. He very convenien tly ignored that. Mr. Speaker, these are the sa me sorts of figures that the Minister of Natural Resources was pointing out the other night, on the population figures, on outmigration, on inmigr ation. We are bo mbarded with these.

I thought the Min ister of Natural Resources laid out a series of facts that woula have been very appetizing for anybody that wanted to portray a factual pictu re , based on the information that he provided, out of fairly rel iable sources, as reliable, I guess as you can ge t, Stats Ca nada, and ot her so urces. ftt t there was not a word mentioned at any point by any of the meaia that were reporting these figures. Now, certa inly they don't lay credence to the type of Gilman report that the Free Pr ess haa done, the mail-in report that was done by Dr.

Gilman in his horseback su rvey, or mail-in survey, that the Free Press had com missioned. Mr . Speaker, I want to take the opportunity to say that in that report, which I read with interest , there was one paragraph in there that said that anyone wishing to get information on how the information had been collected coula do so by contacting the Free Pr ess. Well, we did contact the Free Press. I know more than one person that contact ed the Free Press. Not one per son ever got back the st atisti cal basis for the asser tions that were made in that re port. We were denied them. It was a false statement, Mr.

Speaker, and that's the kina of nonsense that seems to be going on. Now, Mr . Gilman is also a good friend of the member opposite, and is one of his cons ultants in these matters, too. And Mr. Speaker, you get pretty cynical in this bus iness when you see all of this evolving. But what is wrong when the government puts out what they think is fact ual informa tion, Mr. Speaker? Why does it go absolutely zero quiet? Mr. Speaker, look at these statistics. We're being ju mped on as if somehow the Manitoba government is res pons ible for the entire operation of the Manitoba eco nomy.

The facts are that the Manitoba economy, in 1978 , perfor med at a better rate than all of those years from 197 4 through 19 77. It's not our stati sti cs, they're after the fact statistics. And they're as accurate as statistics are. They're no t projections into the future, which I always take with a grain of salt. I don't really place much credence in any of the forecast s that co me out of the ec onomists. But I think that after the fact, st atisti cs are valuable ana can be reliea upon, ana that those are the facts. Not our created facts, they're the fact s crea ted by others.

The Leader of the Opposition conceaed that the real growth in our province this year is likely to exc eed the national average. Now, it's also worth pointing out that cont rary to what he said, also, the Conference Board sa ys that in 1979 the real growth rate in Manitoba was - 211 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 higher than Saskatc hewan. Well, nobody has said that, Mr. Speaker, bu t that's in the stati sti cs. We didn't put those out; they're put out by ot hers. But this sort of jumping for joy across the way - you can see the expression on their faces as soon as there's a bit of baa news co mes out , it doesn't matter whether the bad news is co rrect or incorrect - you can see the sm iles on the f aces across the way. It's the whole syndro me, Mr. Speaker, that they're caug ht up in.

They're caught up in the aoom and gloom syndro me, ana it's being ec hoed , no t only by the opposition, it is being echoe d in other places too. And the mood and the at mosphere ana the gen eral im pression about the performance of the ec onomy is not satisf acto ry. It's no t as good, Mr. Speaker, as it should be, be cause the eco nomy, in fact, is functioning in Manit oba pretty well. He carefully avoided, also, mention of the large increas e in total employment in Manit oba, last year and the year be fore.

Total increase from 1977 to 1979 was 24,000, and that's exactly double the increase of the previous two years, when he was in govern ment. Now furthermore, out of that increase, 24, 000, nearly all of it was in the private sec tor. And if you look at the 12 ,000 that was the increas e during the last two years of their govern ment, 11, 000 of it, there's only 1, 000 of it shown as being in the private sector. So these are the facts and figures that come out. But this sort of selective reduction of eco nomic facts that is being promulgated by the Me mber for Brandon East - I think, that's the main source of it.

He and some of hi s more acad emic friends churn this stuff out a mile a minute. They've got their blinkers on, bu t they just keep going and keep cranking it out. And they find, eventually, so mebody naive enough to believe it and print it and to impart the false informat ion to the co mmunity. That's what's been going on. Mr. Speaker, the Me mber for Inkster, in his co mments toaay, wa s referring to the fact •• • I have never heard a position taken by hi m qui te as st rongly. He finds us at fault because we didn't balance the budge t. Mr. Speaker, we didn't say we were going to balance the budget.

We wanted to reduce the aefici t. We have reduced the deficit. We've reduced the defici t so that the entire amount of the defic it , consistently, if you look at the traditional method of keeping the books , has been on the capital side alone. Mr . Speaker, again, to give you an idea what's going on in the co mmunit y, one of the former heads of the Econo mics Departme nt at the Univers ity of Mani toba was on a radio program abou t two weeks ago, adVocating higher and higher defic its . Ana he made the point, Mr. Speaker - and got away with it - by saying that defic i ts, ana the big defici ts, are good .

And he used as his example, Germany and Ja pan. Two of the most successful industrial countries in the world , he said , are married to large defici ts, and look how successf ul they are. Mr . Speaker, that's not my underst anding, bu t he got away with it. I know that Japan has done, like the Me mber for lnkster says, they have provided more purely the Keynesian philosophy. In the good years they don't defic it, in the bad years they go deficit, bu t it 's on capi tal. They go into capi tal public works programs when they have a slow ec onomy. They did it last year.

They poured massive amounts into capi tal; but they don't do it every year. That's Japan. Germany - my understandi ng is that in Germany, ever since the 1920 s when they had their massive crash, and then following World War II, it's part of the German Constitu tion that they can't run a defi ci t. It's built right into the cons titution of their country, Mr. Speaker. They are very aware of their condi tion vis-a-vis defic its.

But the eco no mi sts that see m to be prevailing in getting the message across in this province keep adVocating the higher and higher ae f ic its, and they don't differentiate be tween capi tal account and cu rrent account. They just say more and more and more, because as long as you borrow in the country in which you're spending, then you only owe it to yourself. Well, what they, Mr.

Speaker, don't seem to want to address themselves to, is that when they go into massive deficits, consistent ly, that the federal government has gone into, when you have a built-up accu mulation of deficit s of som e $50 billion in a matter of a very few years and are going in at the rate of another $10 or $12 billion a year, a great deal of that being on the operating acc ount , that you have no alternative but to mortgage the opportunities that you have for further flexibility into the future. And that is basic ally and fundamentally the position that we have taken all along.

We haven't said that it's a golden rule that the Budge t must be balanced. What we've tried to do is reauce defici t and ge t it to the position where it was entirely capi tal. We were successful in doing that; we aid it in the first year; ana we have cons istently done it. But we're prepared to use the public cred i t where necessary, as has been announced by the Min ister of Health yeste raay , for the purposes of improving the social services - which we will do this year by - 212 -

Friday, 29 February 1980 spending multi million dollars on the upgrading of the different facili ties that come under his res ponsibility: Nursing homes, personal care homes, and hospitals, Mr. Speaker, and schools as well. All of that is going to proceed. But Mr. Speaker, I am co mplaining somewhat about the fact that the Manitoba economy is, in fact , performing at a much bet ter rate than the general perce ption is , and I don't think the opposi tion is going to be able to ge t away with this for year-in and year-out. I think the opportuni ties in this province are far, far greater, Mr.

Speaker, than the opposi tion would like to ad mit, and I think the public generally is aware of that as well. As far as the population shi fts are conce rned, the figures that were given by the Ministe r of Natural Resources are well worth reading. And for anybody tha t wants to repeat the m, if the only way we can get them out is to put out our own production, I guess we'll have to do it, Mr. Speaker, bu t it seems to be the only way that you can ge t across the picture.

It seems to me we're in a trough of doom and gloom with the Leader of the Opposition particularly, and his cohorts, leading the pack and trying to paint this kind of a picture. Mr. Speaker, I wanted to also make some further co mments about the Throne Speech and the replies that have come forth. I noticed a number of things that the members opposit e are going to try and upgrade their services and their appeal to sma ll business. That's most interesting, Mr. Speaker.

I also noti ced that the Manitoba Federation of Labour, which is very closely tied to the New Democ ratic Pa rty now - and of course, if we believe eve rything we hear, it was what triggered the Me mber for Inkster to leave the New De mocratic Party, because of their undue influence on that party. But I think that it's worth pointing out that the Manitoba Federation of Labour, in their annual brief this year, took the position exactly opposite to the Leader of the Opposition. They were very cri tical of the govern ment for reducing the corporat ion tax reduction. Mr.

Speaker, the corporat ion tax in this province is reduced for sma ll bus iness. There is a different ial tax. The corporation tax for sm all business is 11 percent, for large business it's 15 percent. A very cri tical position taken by the Federation of Labour for doing that. Mr. Speaker, I think there are a number of qu estions then, that have to be directed to the Leader of the Opposi tion. In his ramblings, he has made the general reference , taken a bow towards small business.

Is he going to maintain the tax rat e lower for small business which was initiated by the Conservative govern ment , or is he going to put it bac k up again? Is, Mr. Speaker, the New De mocratic Pa rty, going to reinsti tu te the Succ ession Duties, the death taxes that were invoked in Mani toba prior to October 11, 1977 ? I think every sma ll business man would be interested in knowing an answer to that. ls the New Democ rati c Party going to put bac k up the personal inco me tax rates? I think the Leader of the Opposition directly said that we shouldn't have reduced personal inco me tax.

We reduced it fro m 56 percent to 54 percent. ls the Leader of the Opposition and the New De mocratic Party going to put the personal income tax rat e back up again to 56? It's not a massive difference, Mr. Speaker, bu t they see m to be hidebound by dogma and philosophy, and maybe they have to at least put it up a token amount to indicate that they are going to tax the people a little more on inco me. Is that going to be the trigger to bow and help the small business people of this province? --{In terjectio n)-- We want answers, Mr. Speaker.

When I bump into people in the sm all business sector , I want to be able to say to them that the New De mocratic Party has now said that they will keep the inco me tax lower. Mind you, the province of Saskatc hewan put their's down; they 're now one percent lower than Manitoba on inco me tax, they're 53 . Is the ND P here advocating that it should go back up to 56? I want to ask them whether or not the New De mocratic Party is going to bring back in death taxes , being the only one of what? - one or two provinces remaining in Canada who have that death tax. Because , Mr.

Speaker, there is a schizo phrenia across the way on this question. The former leader of the New Democratic Party in Gi mli, Manitoba in 1977 , implied to the people of Manitoba that they were going to re move the death taxes but he had a lot of problems ac ross the way when it came time for the move in late 1977 when the bill was put to this House and he had great difficulty wrestling with it. I suspect they are going to reapply those taxes. I expect they are probably going to again, Mr.

Speaker, have to answer the question as to whether the corporation capi tal tax is going to apply to those with assets below $500 ,000 in sma ll busine ss because the li mit has been raised to the $500, 000 by this government. Are they going to put that and make it apply again to the lower limit? All of those, Mr. Speaker , are pretty basic interesting facts for the people that want to avail themselves of this new spiri t of interest across the way, the small business people and the farmers, Mr.

Speaker, and others in this province who would want to know that be fore they buy. -{Interjection)- Whe n I am finished, Mr. Speaker I would be happy to. - 21 3 -

Friday, 29 February 19 80 Mr. Speaker, brie fly on the issue of energy. I don't know who the energy cr itic is across the way. I thought it was the Me mber for Lac du Bonnet , but the Me mber for The Pas yesterday announced on the radio that he was the energ y and mines' crit ic. So at any rate I noticed in the paper, I didn't hear his speech, bu t the Me mber for Lac du Bonnet is reported in the paper as calling the governm ent's energy policy a con ga me. Mr. Speaker, I don't think he was referring to conserva tion when he used the word con.

He is trying to, of course, disc redi t the government because the opposit ion is absolutely bankrupt as they always were with regards to an energy philosophy and this govern ment has brought forth a fairly solid move towards setting up the kinds of structures that the government feels are in the best interests of serving the people of Manitoba.

One is the reg ulatory authori ty which looks into the interest with regards to import -export for the province, particu larly on the elect rical side , bu t also looks after the aspects dealing with The Allocation Act that was passed by the govern ment of Canaaa in the last 12 months. There are other aspects that come into the regulatory side that will be developed as they are required for the best interests of the province. On the ot her side, Mr. Speaker, the public si de, the interest there of course is to develop the public partici pation.

There are a large and growing segment of the public who want more informat ion, are interested in cons ervation, are interested in new systems, new ideas and want to ge t on with it. There are so me good group; that have been at tem pting to help the m. The Consumers Association has been active. The Solar En ergy Soc ie ty has been helpful and acti ve. The Biomass Group - all of these have been doing a very co mmendable job.

The intent here on that side is to ass ist them further in doing that job in some more formal way, and that wi ll become a ci tizens' involvement and advisory group that will assist the govern ment in providing whatever help they can by way of the new federal-provincial agree ment which we expect will be entered into very soon and has cleared all the hurdles at this end and awaits only som e fairly, I think, final minor sign atures, Mr. Speaker, at the other end of the line. So, Mr.

Speaker, with that I think that we are going to see a move into that age where the energy pictu re will be adequately and com plet ely servect. There have been a large number of studies that have already been initiat ed. There are of course legions in number who are interested out there and want to avail themselves of it. Wit h regards to the other topic, the one that seems to have only been now raised in any sor t of formal way by the Me mber for Inks ter, the matter of Mani toba Hydro.

He seems to be sort of trying to sugg est, and I admit that he is probably the only one across the way that has any even elementary understanding of what's happening or has happened with regards with this natural resource. The su ggestion is there that there is some difficulty in the govern ment living with the various reports it has received. The Tri tschler report in particular he mention ea. Mr . Speaker, let me say at the outset that the Tritschler Report is one of the most valuable docu ments that has ever been produced. Mr. Speaker, the members opposite have every right to be sensitive.

They have every right to be sensitive and they don't seem to ge t past those areas tha t are of parti cular sensi tivity to them. And I don't really blame them. Bu t in the total picture, the Tritsc hler report with its recom mendations, the Lambert report on Crown corporat ions to a much lesser degree, the report that was even done by Eric Kierans during the period of the former government, which was kept under wrap; and never allowed out of wrap;, Mr. Speaker , was kept under wraps by the former govern ment when Kierans did it in the early 19 70's and ca me ou t only several years after. Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter is that they may want to att ac k the Tritschler report, which I found not surprising, Mr. Speaker, bu t just another indication of the shallowness of their abilities across the way. They could find no other way to do it but to attack it as being a political docu ment. Well, Mr. Speaker, if the Tritschler report were a political docu ment, what was the Kierans Report? A lot of the things that were said in the Ki erans Report were contained in the Tritschler report. The Kierans Report was a warning to them across the way but it was a warning that was no t heeded. They did no thing.

They did no thing with It and the problem we nt on and the problem we nt on. Mr . Speaker, the report speaks for its elf and I am su re that we haven't heard the end of 1t. But let's no t have the suggestion lay that so mehow the Tritsch ler report was not considered by this government to be a valuable report. It was worth every cent, Mr. Speaker, that was spent on it. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition in one of his character istic thrust s, if you can call it that, couldn't be satisfied by saying that the Tri tschler report cost 1.3 mill10n dollars.

He said the costs to Hydro were $4 million, som ething like that, $3 million, $4 million. - 21 4 -

Friaay, 29 February 1980 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister has five minutes. MR . CR AIK: Mr . Speaker, they are so prone to exagerate. They are so prone to exagera te, Mr. Speaker, that they can't avoid every opportunity to do it. They do it on every occasion. Well let me say simply the costs of the Tritschler Commission report were worth every cent. It's probably one of the most valuable reports that any govern ment at any time has ever co mmissioned. And there are those in the utility who will adVise you of the same thing.

They don't take it as criti cally as the members opposite may like to think that they do. They're valued from every point of view in that report and it is going to con tinue to be of value. I want to repeat, they never referred to the Ki erans Re port as being a political report. Mr. Speaker, I will re mind you again that the admonitions of the Kierans Re port were on mark with the observations of the Tri tschler Commission. Mr. Speaker, I know that this topic is going to come back and I welco me the opportunity to discuss it again. In the meantime the Hydro opera tion is moving along satisf acto rily.

We have had some problems with the rate stabilization guarantee that was undertaken by the government last year. The cost s to the Crown are going to end up at so mewhere for this year in the order of $3 8 million dollars. I said in the House last year it was an insurance program, that if the rates on foreign currency fluctuations sta yed for the period of five years at the rat e they wa-e at , it would probably cos t around $1 15 million over the five years. If we are fortunate enough for the currency exchange rates to co me back, it may not cost that.

I suppose in theory it doesn't have to cos t a cen t, but I can tell you that after the fact that you can tell more than you can ahead of time. I do want to indicate though to me mbers of the House that it has been a sign ificant st abilizer to the opera tions of Hydro and it took out the tluctuat1ons they would have other wise had to account for in the same manner to a lesser degree that the Telephone Syste m has had to ac count for. And it would have made a si gnf icant difference to the method of the operat ion of the utility.

It has improved the position from a poi nt of view of dealing also in the bond market, if and when we have to bac k, particu larly to the Americ an market. I do want to say also that if you think that the foreign currency exch ange thing is some thing that is no t real, then you'd be seriou sly mis taken. The condi tion has re mained reasonably st able over the past 12 months, but it's still not a very good scene. I don't know who the Minister of Finance will be in 1983-84, Mr.

Speaker , but I can forewarn you that in that year there's going to be over $400 million of ref unding to be done that was not bargaine d on when those foreign issues were entered into. The Member for St. Johns may well have some familarity since he was in government when those issues were taken out. But if you want to face the prospect of borrowing another $400 million in 1983-84 for just refunding, Mr. Speaker, qu ite apart from any capi tal program Hydro may be into by that time, I think that anybody here can se nse that there is going to be a major and si gnific ant challenge to do that at that time.

You are also going to have to face on the books probably a 100 million-dollar cash loss in that year because of the payout of the bond issues, that is, unless the for ei gn currencies co me back into line again. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is one year outside of the five-year Hydro rate freeze that is in the si xth year , so it wasn't included in the 11 5-million dollar projec tion that was given last year. Maybe it will never happen. Mr .

Speaker, we've gone almost one year now since the move was first made and the sto rm clouds have not cleared up yet , and I don't find anybody indicat ing that our exchange position is going to improve or that of the Americ an currency is going to im prove in rela tion to the off-sh ore curre ncies to bring us back. So, Mr. Speaker, I know my ti me is out. Simply let me say that in terms of the total pictu re, Manitoba st ill has one of the healthiest econo mies in Canada.

In spite of the fact that we've had to take it slow on some of the Hydro development, it's gomg to perfor m at a rate that is going to st and Mani toba in good st ead in the statistics ana in fact in the quality of life in this province. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Me mber for St . Johns. MR. CHERN IA CK: Mr. Speaker, thank you. The Honourable Ministe r indicat ed that he would accept a ques tion. I have a couple of qu estions I would like to direct to him if I may. MR . SPEAK ER: Order please. The time of the Hono urable Minis ter has expired.

Any questions would have to be with unani mous consent of the House. The Ho nourable Me mber for St. Johns. - 215 -

Friday, 29 February 19 80 MR . CHER NIACK: The Ho nourable Minis ter inaicatea that the Tritschler report was worth every cent of the cost. Can he in<licate to us wha t was the cost bo th to govern ment an<l to Hydro? MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Minist er of Finance. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the fig ures given by the Leader of' the Oppos1 t1on were so mewhere in the order of $400 million. -{Interjection)- He dia. We ll look up the rec ord. He's got the Hydro figures costs up at 3 or 4 million, 1.3 here , wha tever it is.

The cost s to the utility are less than the costs of the report itself •• -{Inte rjection)- We ll, Mr. Speaker, it 's no t a parti cularly easy job for the ut ility of course to att ribute the internal costs. Let me tell you this, that the legal costs for the utility were higher than the legal costs for the co mmission of inquiry, Mr. Speaker. If you want a bit of informat ion, as far as the internal costs, there is no reliable (X'ediction of the internal costs. The costs of the legal costs to the ut ility, the external cost to the ut ility are less than $1 million.

The external costs to the utility are less than one-hal f million dollars. MR. SP EA K ER: The Hono urable Me mber for St. Johns. MR . CHERNIACK: Mr . Speaker, now that the Min ister has given us a arith metic puzzle to try to work out , ana is unable and unwilling to give us fact s, woula he aeal with another question I have in mind and that is, is his govern ment going to re move the Pr operty Tax Cre<lit Plan as he hi mself unaertook would be done in 1976? MR . SPEAKER: Or<ler please. Order please.

May I point out to honourable members that questio ns can only be relevant to the debate that is taking place , and I suggest to the honourable member that his quest ion was not in order. The Hono urable Government House Lea<ler. MR . MER CIER: Mr . Speaker, on a point of oraer. The last qu estion from the Me mber for St. Johns was given with the unanimous consent of the House. Mr. Speaker, I'm concernea as Government House Leader, we have a long list of speakers on this si<le who wish to speak and I decline to grant consent to any further ques tions. MR .

SPE AK ER: The question before the House is the Honourable Me mber for Kil don an. MR . PE TER FOX (K ilaonan): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I woul<l first of all like to start my reply to the Throne Speech Debate by congra tulating the Mover ana the Seconder in this regard. I must admit that I was unable to be in the Chamber at the ti me that they spoke but I have reaa what they have said, and I realize that they have done their homework. Al though I have some empathy with them because to me the Throne Speech had very li ttle substance ana so they must have worked very hard to be able to make it soun<l lau<lable.

Nevertheless, I congratulate them for their efforts. As is cus tomary, Mr . Speaker, I wish to indicate my apprec iation for your efforts to maintain the custo ms, usages ana aeco ru m of this House and I must inaicate that I shall continue to try to ass ist you an<l to co-operate with you in maintaining the high stanaaras of' our parliamentary syste m ana its evolving methods to im prove our society .

I should also like to indi cate my appreciat ion of the Deputy Speaker who has conauctea himself very well and has maintaine<l a good deco ru m while he's been in the Chair in your absence, ana also when he WI£> chairman of co mmit