ISSN 0542-5 �92 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 35A - 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 4 JUNE, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTEIT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Sieve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, Jemes E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER,Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMP HILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.YLJ. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon.Yic scorr, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfidd Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhlneland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa ·Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norber t Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wo lseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP INO NDP NDP NDP NDP INO NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITO BA Monday, 4 June, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINI STERI AL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a statement. Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to announce that this is the beginning of Environment week'84 in Canada.

This year, the theme for Environment week in Manitoba is "Your Action Today - Our Environment Tomorrow." This is a remi nder to all of us tha t individually and collectively we must do our part to preserve our environment for future generations of Manitobans. A host of activities, both locally and nationally, are planned to recognize this important week. In Manitoba, the organizing comm ittee has put together a full schedule.

Tomorrow morning I will have the pleasure of participating, along with Her Honour the Lieutenant­ Governor and His Worship, the Mayor of Winnipeg, in the official kick-off of Environment week'84. This event will be highlig hted with the opening of Stephen Juba Park on the banks of the Red River. This new park is one of the first major projects to be r.ompleted under the Canada-Manitoba AR C Agreement. In addition, over the course of the week, we can look forward to: The opening of a nature trail at the Fort Whyte Nature Centre. A special presentation of four original environmental plays by Springfield Collegiate.

These plays have been written and produced by the high school to coincide with Environment week. They will be presented at 7:00 p.m. Thursday night at the Planetarium Theatre. The National Film Board is sponsoring a free environmental film series for most of this week at their Cinema Main. And final ly, the various go vernment and environmental organizations involved will be hosting a major display at the St. Vital Shopping Centre on Thursday, Friday and Saturday of this week. Mr.

Speaker, I have taken the liberty of providing members, or will be providing members of this House, with a copy of the calendar of events for Environment Week'84. I hope that my colleagues will join me in giving their support and commitment to Environment week and its laudable objectives. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to say thank you very much to the Honourable Minister for advising us of all of the things that are happening during Environment week.

I'm a little disappointed ina smuch as there are a lot of ni ce statem ents concerning plays at Springfield Collegiate and things of that nature. I was hoping that he would make some announcement concerning the spraying of mosquitoes and cankerworms. I was hoping that he would make some announcement concerning the rendering plant at Brandon that's going to be closed down, but I do thank him for what little information that he's imparted to us. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. lt is my privilege to announce today the signing of yet another agreement between the Government of Manitoba and the Government of Canada - the fulfillment of ano.ther item on the Economic and Regional Development Agreement list set out at the end of 1983. These agreements are strengthening our economic base and broadening and sustaining our recovery. I have tabled copies of this agreement, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to examine the recent history of federal­ provincial negotiations.

As the House will remember, Manitoba was first among the provinces to sign a new Economic and Regional Development Agreement with the Federal Government. That was back in November. That signing has been followed by the announcement of the following sub-agreements: The Economic Planning Agreement at $3 million; The Mineral Development Agreement at $24.7 million; The Forestry Agreement at $27 million; The Port of Churchill Development Agreement at $93 million; The General Transportation Deve lopment Agreement at $1 37.6 million; and The Agri-Food Development at $38.3 million.

I'm sure members will agree that this list of economic initiatives signed to date is an impressive one and one which reflects this government's well-defined vision for Manitoba. Today's signing, Mr. Speaker, will firmly establish Manitoba as the leader in Canada for the development and manufacturing of advanced-tech nology urban buses. The agreement calls for the investment of $50 million, equally divided between our government and the Government of Canada. 1488

MondaJ, 4 June, 1884 There are three components to this ini tiative. The first is research and development in which we will pursue selected technologies which are strategic to the development of the urban bus industry in Manitoba. The second supports the design, development and construction of prototypes. And the third, which is production design and demonstration of advanced urban bus technology. We will be actively seeking further participation from the private sector for each of these components. Mr.

Speaker , the current projections for direct employment is more than 220 jobs in Manitoba in the private sector. lt will also enhance the competitiveness of the ur ban bus indu stry in the international marketplace. In Manitoba, we already account for approximately 40 percent of the indus try's national employment, and 30 percent of the national i}?oduction. I'm pleased that the Federal Government has agreed with us that Manitoba is the proper location for this venture.

This signing confirms the comments made recently by such organizations as the Canadian Manufacturers' Association and the Investment Dealers' Association that investment opportunities here have never looked brighter . Mr. Speaker, with the participation of the private sector, the Urban Bus Agreement will encourage more investment In the Manitoba economy and will provide permanent, long-term employment. lt is an important component of our long-term development strategy, one which will place Manitoba even further along the road to economic growth and recovery. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek.

MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the Minister for this announcement. it's a very detailed announcement and I would congratulate the Minister for following up on the previous government's work that was done in order to develop the transportation Industry in the Province of Manitoba. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister were to go back to his staff he would find that there was clearly a program that designated ind ustries In Manitoba that were ones that we should develop and those records are there.

We started the development, as a matter of fact, and I'm pleased to see that is has continued, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I can remem ber very clearly in the report of Flyer Ind ustry , the oppo sition was very, very concerned that there was not more research and technology going on within the Flyer Bus Industry so that we would be able to keep up with the coming times as far as the transportation ind ustry is concerned. Mr.

Speaker, I would hope sincerely that the numb er of consultants that are crawling all over Flyer Industry at the present time, that their work will become beneficial to the province, because it's a large amount of money that is being spent and I certainly hope that the government will watch this money wisely and truly have the 220 jobs that this announcement says they'll have. This government has not been very famous for following through on any of the announcements that they make, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. G.

LECUYER introduced Bill No. 6, The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act; Lol sur la manutention et le transport des merchandises dang eureuses (Recommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor); and Bill No. 11 ,

An Act to amend The Clean Environment Act. HON. M. HEMPHILL introduc ed Bill No. 12,

An Act to amend The Public Schools Act; Loi modifiant la

loi sur les ecoles publiques (Recommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor). HON. E. KOSTYRA introduced Bill No. 14, The Jobs Fund Act;

Loi sur le fonds de soutlen a l'emploi (Recommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant­ Governor). MR. G. MERCIEA introduced Bill No. 13,

An Act to amend The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practices Act; Loi modifiant la

loi sur le recouvrement des petites creances a la Cour du Banc de la Reine. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery. We have the Lieutenant-Governor of the State of Nevada, Mr. Cashell; and he is accompanied by the mayor of Ely, Nevada, who is Mayor Barlow White, accompanied by Mrs. White; and Mr. Cashell is accompanied by Mr. Bodenstei ner, his secretary. On behalf of all of the memb ers, I welcome you here this afte rnoon.

Also in the gallery is a group of 69 students of Grade 9 standing from the Mennonite Brethren Collegiate under the dir ection of Mr. Enns. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Elmwood. On belhalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Government House Leader - courtesy to members MR SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I raise a point of order with the Government House Leader. lt has to do with the manner in which ministerial statements are made or not made in this Chamber. We've been subjected, Mr.

Speaker, to a plethora of statements during the life of this Session, many dealing with the kinds that we've heard today outlining new agreements with the Federal Government. They range from the opening of new hiking trails to the opening of new claim centres. But, Mr. Speaker, my point of order is, when there is an obvious request for information about government policy which we would expect to be made in this House, then this government chooses not to make that statement in this House.

I refer specifically to the statement made outside of this House on a subject matter that we have pressed this government and the Minister of Mun icipal Affairs for several weeks since 1489

the bad storm conditions that were experienced in parts of southern and western Manitoba. My colleagues have repeatedly asked about a government position, a government policy posit ion, with respect to compensation claims made under that storm. We find the Minister making that statement after the House adjourned Friday afte rnoon without showing us the kind of courtesy that I think is normal and traditional in this Chamber. I raise this with the Government House Leader and ask him whether or not he cannot show this House and these members a little bit more courtesy with respect to these kind of statements? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I don't know If that's a point of order or a question. I'll treat it as a question, Sir, and attempt to reply. I am aware that announcements with respect to the designation of weeks of the year as particular weeks, such as Environment Week or Forestry Week, have been made in this Chamber as a tradition of the Chamber and we have continued with that condition. Mr.

Speaker, some concern was raised by members opposite some time back about non-partisan statements and the leave required for those and we expressed concur rence with honourable members opposite regarding the requirement for leave and the fact that those statements should meet particular criteria. Sir, we have carefully ensured, after objections were raised last winter, that only those statements that either contained updates, which had normally been the occasion for mini sterial statements in the past, or new policy announ cements represented min isterial statements in this House.

With regard to the statement last week, I believe the Minister's press release relating to the ice storm damage in early May was reflective of decisions that were taken late last week; and in view of the request by members opposite about the urgency that that information came out, 1 believe the information was released by the Honourable Minister of Government Services as soon as possible, in direct reflection of the concerns of members opposite that that information go out.

The honourable members are concerned that although the program received final approval at a Cabinet meeting on Wed nesday, that the announcement could possibly have been made Thursda y. Sir, I would submit that members opposite are just as fam iliar as members on this side with the fact that releases have to be drafted and all the appropriate officials notified so that the information can go out on a co-ordinated basis.

That was done by the Minister of Government Services last Friday afternoon in direct response to the suggestion of members opposite that this matter was urgent and the Minister should get the information out as quickly as possible, after the decision was made. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I think the facts speak for themselves on that matter and I'll let that matter lie.

The truth of the matter is that we were not granted the courtesy of being apprised of a policy decision by this government at a time when members, and particularly my colleagues who live in the affected area, were sitting in this Chamber. Legislation • appearance of MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Government House Leader. Some time ago he indicated to us that we could expect the legislative program of this government to be before us by the end of the month - that month, Sir, refe rring to May - we are now at June 4th.

Am I to assume that this is the legislative package of the government that we can anticipate during this Session? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Opposition House Leader asked me the same question last Monday. I concu rred in his opinion, that I had indi cated I hoped a majority of the legislative package would be in by June 1st. That was my hope. Last Monday I indicated I might not be able to see the majority of the legislation tabled by this date. I believe a majority of the legislation has been introduced, if not distributed.

There will still, of course, be the pro forma finance bills, statute law amendments, statute law amendment finance, but I believe a majority of the other bills are now In. I think we're at Bill No. 14. I've indicated I don't expect the total numb er of bills this Session to be more than somewhere between 20 and 25 bills, so certainly, we've now seen the majority introduced. I hope the rest will be introduced later this week; if not, early next week and that most of them will be distributed this week. Rapid transit corridor MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industry arising out of his announcement and the reference to the third component of the program being product ion, design and demonstration of advanced urban bus technol ogy. Could the Minister advise whether any consideration has been given under this agreement to a review or implementation of the southwest Rapid Transit corridor or Is that whole subject matter being discussed with the Federal Government under other forms of agreements between Provincial and Federal Governments? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Yes, that development Is part of this agreement to the extent that any demonstration project that will result from the developments un der research and development components and the prototype components that any demonstration area that Is needed is targeted for the southwest quarter as being the area for the demonstration project. There has been discussions with the Federal Government, obviously, on this area, along with the City of Winnipeg on a num ber of occasions, 1490

MonclaJ 4 June, 1114 and as I ind icated, if and when we get to the demonstration phase that it's targeted to use the proposed southwest corridor as the demonstration for any new urban bus developments under this agreement. Children's Aid Society MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Community Services.

Does she intend to meet with the 70 Children's Aid Society staff workers who have given her a petition requesting a meeting to discuss the ramifications of the interim board's recent decision with respect to the three-and-a-half-year-old child, and does she intend to investigate the concerns and allegations that the interim board's decisions have not been professional but have been political decisions and the allegations with respect to conflict of interest against two members of the board? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I do intend to meet with the staff of the Children's Aid Society to discuss general policy and protocols, not to discuss this specific case that is currently before the courts. Lotteries MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister in charge of Lotteries.

Could he inform the House how much revenue is being lost to cultural groups and sports groups and other groups who benefit from lottery funds in Manitoba as a result of the Minister's and the government's decision not to allow the sale of Lotto 6/49 in shopping centres unless the government holds a lease which has not allowed these operations in shopping centres where there is a great deal of traffic, obviously? How much revenue is being lost to groups who benefit from lotteries as a result of this government's decision? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, my Estimates are in front of the House now and I'll be ready to debate that and give all the information at that time. Hate literature, distribution of MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, one final question to the Attorney-General. In view of the reports with respect to the dissemination of anti-Catholic materials, is the Attorney-General asking his department or law enforcement agencies to investigate and determine whether or not criminal charges can be laid? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, my answer will be in three parts, Mr. Speaker.

I have, with respect to some of the material that was being made available to me, spoken to senior counsel in the department, and given the present state of the law, it would not be possible to launch a successful prosecution. That leads me to the second part of my answer, namely, representations which have been made by myself, on behalf of the government, asking the Minister of Justice to strengthen the present provisions in the Criminal Code with respect to hate literature.

I'm heartened to note that indeed just last week, Thursday or Friday, the Minister of Jus tice tabled proposed legislation to do precisely that. The third part of my answer relates to the fact that although we may not be able to successfully prosecute, some of the literature which we've seen under the present state of the Criminal Code, action may still be possible under the Human Rights Commission or Human Rights Act and the Human Rights Commission Is investigating and seeing whether the broader of provisions of the Human Rights Act may make it possible for them to take action. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOE RN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General, following the very good point made by the Conservative House Leader. Since the provincial factum or brief to the Supreme Court has been distributed to the media, will it now be available in the House? HON. R. PENNER: lt has been made available to the Leader of the Opposition and to the Member for St.

Norbert, as the constitutional critic. lt has been made available to the Member for Elmwood, and any other member who wants a copy can obtain a copy. lt's a public document. lt's a legal document, not a political document and I don't propose to table it in the House. That would be inappropriate. But as a public document, it's available. Address for Papers - request MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to direct a question to the House Leader.

Given that I filed an Address for Papers some three to four months ago, concerning the copies of correspondence between the Franco-Manltoban Society and the various Ministers, indi viduals and departments In the Provincial Government, could he now indicate when that order will be filed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HO�!. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I can't provide a specific date. Staff are working on all orders and addresses that have been agreed to by the House and they will be tabled as soon as they are prepared. FAST - alarm systems MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Housing. 1491

I Monday, 4 June, 11184 Last week I posed a question to him and the Minister und ertook to provide information as to the Installation of FASTS in MHRC housing units. Due to the fact that we are hopefu lly to finish the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System tomorrow morning, I wonder if the Minister might be able to make that information available later on today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr. Speaker, I am In the process right now of obtaining that information. I would hope that I can transmit that information for committee purposes by tomorrow morning then.

MR. D. ORCHARD: I'd appreciate if the Minister could do that and, as a supplementary question to that, could the Minister also determine whether the FAST alarm system was chosen on the basis of a public tender amongst a numb er of competing alarm systems? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I'll try and obtain that inf ormation as well. Highway Traffic Act - headlights MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Hig hways and Transportation.

Could the Minister indi cate with the proclamation of the headlight amendment to The Highway Traffic Act requiring headlights to be used one-half hour prior, or after, etc. a sun rise, sunset, could the Minister indicate the level of fine that will be assessed for people found in violation of that head light law? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, I believe it is in the neighbourhood of a $20 fine. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Minister indicate whether there will be demerit points assessed against offending drivers' licences? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Speaker, under the current arrangements for demerit points, that would be the case. I should mention that the reason that this was proclaimed at this time, in terms of headlights being required to be on one-half hour before sunset and one­ half hour after sunrise in the morning, is because it has been indica ted through tests that have been conducted, that there is an inordinately high accident rate during those two periods - approximately 6 percent higher at dusk and 3 percent higher in the mornings after sunrise.

For that reason, it was felt by the joint committee that was studying highway traffiC safety across Canada, that the province should under take to implement uniform regulations with regard to lights on in these periods of time. That has been done and a number of provinces have already, at this time, proclaimed that same legislation as is in place in Manitoba and a number of other provinces are currently in the process of doing that. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Wo uld the Minister consider the advisability of removing the headlight offence from the assessment of demerit points, because surely that is not a heinous crime for a driver in the Province of Manitoba to commit such that he would be assigned demerit points and eventually see the cost of his driver's licence rise? Wo uld the Minister consider removal of demerit points or the assessment of demerit points for any offenders to this legislation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the honourable member's wish to somehow gain some political advantage out of this particular proclamation.

He is fully aware of the benefits that are obtained from such a proclamation in terms of reduction In accidents. In terms of demerit points we are undertaking a major review of the whole issue of demerit points. There are many different Infractions that are certainly of varying degrees of severity, and yet they all carry the same penalty with regard to demerit points.

We don't think that is a fair process as it is now and I've asked the department to review that, in conjunction also with MPIC, in terms of demerit points that are assessed for insurance purposes, to ensure that there's a fairer system in place with regard to the infractions that would reflect the severity of a particular infract ion. That review is currently und er way and it will also take into consideration this particular proclamation of the

section regarding headlights. MR. D. ORCHARD: In view of the fact that this particular

section is just recently being proclaimed, would the Minister not consider the advisability of immediately removing any demerit point assessment for violations of this legislation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, as usual the member doesn't listen very well. The point is that we do not want to piecemeal the whole demerit process. What we want to do is take a look at the overall system that is in place. This is another one of those situations, perhaps, where there should be a reduction where it is not as severe, for example, as a dangerous driving situation.

There's faulty equipment infractions; there's speeding infractions that are very borderline in nature. Where there's no traffic around, should they indeed have the same kind of demerit assessed against that driver as when he is in an accident, or when there's been a severe infraction. We have to look at that and we will look at that in terms of this particular piece of legislation as well. Ice storm - clean-up costs MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speake r, I have a question for the Minister of Government Services.

When the Minister made his announcement outside of the House last Friday with respect to assistance to people in municip alities suffering damage during the recent storm, he didn't make it entirely clear as to what the eligibility of individuals would be. Can he clarify for us whether or not any indi vidual, wherever they might be in the province, who have suffered livestock losses as a consequence of that storm, will be eligible for 1492

Monday, 4 June, 1984 compensation if they meet the criteria of minimum $250 dollars damage and a maximum of $30,000.00? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Min ister of Government Services. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, We had received a number of claims from a particular area in the brunt of the storm that we experienced at the end of April, Mr. Speaker. We of course realize that there may be some other claims that will be coming in from the peripheral area of the storm and we have taken that into account.

Perhaps not having received any claim during the time that we were formulating the guidelines and also trying to comp lete the disaster policy that we had been working on for some time, we did indicate that where there were other claims coming in as a result of the storm, that we would review those claims and if they were found to be falling within the criteria, we would consider them. The Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board will be reviewing all these claims and we'll be looking at them based on merit of each individual application. While I'm on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, there were questions raised as to why I didn't make a statement on Friday and the fact is that the press releases were not completed and properly worded until after 1:00 o'clock before I was able to complete the press releases. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the Minister should probably be aware that press releases are based upon statements made by the Minister. The Minister doesn't make his statements based upon press releases. Mr.

Speaker, does the Minister not understand the reason why he has not received applications from outside of some of these specified areas because he would not make any announcement, he would not make a public announcement via press release that he was indeed asking people to submit claims and that they would be considered by the government? Does he not realize that is why he hasn't received applications from those areas? In order to offset that, Mr.

Speaker, will he now put out a further press release saying that individuals anywhere in the province might qualify under these guidelines, not just individuals who fall within, who live within the municipalities that were mentioned? HON. A. ADAM: Well, first of all, the member is incorrect when he says that we haven't received any applic ations for claims outside of those particular designated areas, Mr. Speaker. We have received some claims from private individuals in the lnterlake; we have received some in Dauphin; we have received some in other areas as well.

People are aware out there how this system works even if the members opposite don't know how the system works. Anyone who had majot damages as a result of the storm knew how to get to their municipalities, to their ag reps. There were a number of people who contacted their agriculture representatives, others have contac ted the municipalities and a substantial number have contacted the Minister di rectly, Mr. Speaker. So it is incorrect to say that because of the way the information was 1493 disseminated that people didn't know what was going on. That is absolutely incorrect, Mr.

Speaker, and nothing but nonsense. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister put out a further statement di rected towards individuals setting out: Fact No. 1, that they will be eligi ble; an,d No. 2, under what conditions they will be eligible? How do they prove losses, for example? Will he put out some information that would give individuals some direct knowledge of how they should go about applying and how they should go about substantiating their claims? HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, there were a number of livestock that were lost during the storm, and my understanding is tha t many people who did lose livestock contacted their veterinarian very very quickly after having lost livestock. I'm not sure whether they all did that, Mr. Speaker. The application forms were sent out for claims May 4th, just a few days after the storm, Mr. Speaker. All the municipalities that were in the di rect path of the storm had those application forms, although they were not that crucial. We have received quite a number of claims just in the form of a letter, which is just as adequate, Mr.

Speaker, so I don't see any need for any further statements. People out there are aware and the media has been communicating to the public out there. They also have the statements that were made in the House from time to time and there is adequate information out there, Mr. Speaker. Just because members opposite are disappointed that we have come forward with a program, Mr.

Speaker, and the impression that I received is that they would have liked us to refuse to provide any assistance, so then they could have gone back to their municipalities - because it happens to be an area represented by members opposite - and score some political points. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, what I can't understand is the Minister's reluctance to inform the public about this program. The Minister made reference to an application form being available on the 4th of May. We fought for week s to get some statement from this Minister.

Is he now telling us that he actually had an application form available on the 4th of May, that the government had at that time established a policy to the point of where they were putting out application forms for individuals to use in making a claim? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, application forms have been around for quite a number of years, even in the time of the members opposite, I would presume. I would haw_ to check back whether they had forms, but they have been around for quite some time, I understand, and they were available. As I have said previously, those forms were not that crucial.

We have received a number of applications by letter and that is quite adequate. These letters are forwarded on to the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board for their review. They will be looking at them; they will be contacting these individuals and probably some have already been contacted. Every application will be judged on its merits, Mr. Speaker. There is nothing wrong with that. That's the way the

MondaJ 4 June, 11114 policy is. If members want to make a big issue out of this, they can go ahead and do it. I have never been a Minister to seek that much publ icity. I try to do my job adequ ately. Mr. Speaker, unlike those members over there, who want to be in the limelight all the time, I'm not that kind of a Minister. I do my job and I do it right. Youth - custody of MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Min ister of Communi ty Services and Corrections.

Can the Minister tell this House whether the youth who was sentenced to a Wilderness Camp is still in custody at the Youth Centr e? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the young person is at the Wilderness Camp and that a question has been filed to the court to be answered this week to clarify jurisdiction between the jud iciary and the Corrections Department as between sentencing and the actual place where either open or closed custody will be carried out.

There seems to have been a different understanding as to the respective roles in this phase-in period of YOA and we're moving to clarify that as qui ckly as possible. MR. A. BROWN: My question is to the same Minister, and I wonder whether there were any circumstances why the judge's sentence should not be adhered to in that particular case. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That question should be directed to a Minister where that Minister has the adminis trative responsibility for the subject matter of the question. The Honour able Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Speaker, as I understand it, this is the department that was responsible for taking this particular person from the Wilderness Camp and placing him in the Youth Centre. My question to the Minister is: can the Minister explain why the judge's sentence was not adhered to? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, as I explained before, what we're dealing with is the phasing in of a new act, The Young Offenders Act, and in the

interpretation of that act it has been the understanding all along on the part of Department of Corrections that our responsibility is to take a young person after the judge has determined whether that young person should be in open or closed custody and for a specific period of time and then admin ister that sentence. This decision by the judge, therefore, where he or she not only determined the open or closed nature of the custody and the length, but specified a particular place of custody, went counter to what our expectation of the roles was.

We are now endeavouring to clarify that misunderstanding so that in future we will be operating on a similar understanding. The plan of our Department of Corrections In the early stages of the application of YOA was to designate one cottage at the youth centre as open custody and to ensure that young people there would have as much freedom of movement as they would have in any other open custody section. The centre can be adminis tered in that way.

Then, as we saw the volume of need and could determine it a little more precisely, to gradually expand the facilities available for open custody, but because we're dealing with a new act and with an un predictable volume of need we did not want to get into designa tion of a large num ber of facilities only to find that we were over-supplied. I think this situation will clear itself after we've had the court reference this week. Trucks, tag axle - regulations MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

About a month ago I wrote the Minister of Highways and I would ask him at this time whether or not he could inform the House whether the government will be issuing a clear statement with regard to the problems that the farmers are having interpreting the regulations dealing with tag axle trucks? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member is aware, some two years ago the Minister of High ways at that time had Indicated there would be a change in the regulations governing tag axles.

I indicated during Estimates discussion, as well, that we were in the process of putting together an update annou ncement that would provide some flexibility for owners of tag axle trucks at this time so that they would not be enduring any severe hardships as a result of the changes. That announc ement will be made within a matter of days. MR. R. BANMAN: I thank the Minister for that since a lot of farmers have found out now, When going to sell or trade their trucks, that the prices have dropped because there was no certainty as to whether they would be admissible after the '87 date. Drivers - demerit points MR.

R. BANMAN: I have another question to the Minister. I wonder if he could Inform Manitoba drivers who have clear drivers licences whether or not they could chock up enough demerit points to lose either his or her driver licence if they received a ticket while sitting in their parked car in a no-parking zone half­ an-hour before sunset without their lights on and not wearing their seat belts. MR. SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical. 1494

Monday. 4 June, 11M Credit unions - discarded documents MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a que stion for the Honour able Minister of Co-op Development. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder, can the Honourable Minister of Co-op Development report or explain to the House the Credit unions and Credit union memberships across the province as to the sequence of events that led up to the thousands of copies of mortgages, confidentia l reports, cancelled cheques, etc., et c., computer printouts, being left unattended and blowing to the winds at the back of that building on lnkster Boulevard. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the Minister's willing ness to provide the information and eagerness, but the admini strative responsibility to which the member refers for the disposal of those docume nts did not lie with the department. The Minister, of course, would be free to answer as to what remedial action was taken, but certainly the specific responsibility for the disposal of the documents does not fall under the Min ister in his portfolio responsible for Co-op Development. MR. W.

McKENZIE: On the same point of order, I think it's only fair if we ask the Honourable Minister If he's prepared to find out what was the cause of the problem before you can rectify it? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. J. COWAN: I thank my colleague and the member opposite, the Member for Roblin-Russell, for their advice MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Despite the willing ness of the Minister to answer a question, it is out of order. Wo uld the Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell wish to rephrase hi s question? MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, could I ask the honoura ble Minister: does he know anything about the incident? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That question is also out of order. Manitoba Agricultural Museum MR. SPE AKER: The Honou rable Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Secu rity. I'm wondering if he's had time to rec onsider the application for Careerstart for the Manitoba Agricultur al Museum and if he's prepared now to grant them funds for their summer staffing to run that valuable tourist attraction. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: This matter is being considered , Mr. Speaker, and I'll take the question as notice and advise the honourable member hopefully tomorrow. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I propose to move that the House go into Supply, but before I do so, during Question Period reference was made to a meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources for tomorrow.

Sir, no such meeting has been scheL:.IIed and it does not appear on the Notice Paper for scheduled committee meetings, although there had been discussions with the opposition House Leader about the possibility of tomorrow for a meeting to complete consideration of the report of Manitoba Telephone System. I hope to be able to discuss an appropriate date with the Mini ster responsible tomorrow on his return and make an announcement with regard to a possible meeting for either this Thu rsday or sometime next week. Just, Mr. Speaker, to set the record straight on that. Mr.

Speaker, I don't know if there is leave to continue through Priv ate Members' Hour today. Perhaps it might be appropriate to ask for that leave first, so I know whether or not I should include that in the motion. So I would ask, Mr. Speaker, for leave for the Commi ttee of Supply to sit during Private Members' Hour today. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? (Agreed) ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then I would move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of Su pply to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty and such committee to sit through Private Members' Hour today. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supp ly to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Health, and the Honourable Member for Bu rrows in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreat ion. 1495

Monda� 4 June, 1914 CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CULTURE, HERITAGE AND RECREA TION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: Committee, please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Culture, He ritage and Recr eation. We shall beg in with a statement from the Honou rable Minister responsible for the department. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I welcome this opportunity to present my department's Estimates and to review the events and achievements of the past year on which these Estimates are based. Mr. Chairman, this adminis tration is concerned with the development of culture, heritage and recreation opportunities throughout the province.

My colleagues and I are commi tted to ensuring that opportunit ies for access to and participation in cultural, heritage and recreation activities are extended to all Manitobans and reflect their varied needs and interests. Our cultural past, our heritage, is reflected in our architecture, our visual arts and handicraHs, in our literature and in our songs and dances. lt is also reflected in more fundamental aspects of our lives such as our diverse religions and philosophies, our languages and our family traditions that shape our perceptions, attitudes and values. Mr.

Chairman, Manitoba has taken the unique step in the formation of the Manitoba lntercultural Council; the majority of whose members are elected by the ethnocultural communit y, rather than appointed by government as they are in other provinces. The council is truly representative of the ethnocultural community and forms a partnership with government in developing init iatives to strengthen the position of ethnocultural groups so that they may participate fully in all aspects of Ma nitoba's society. Since its inception, the council has met with Cabinet committee three times to discuss issues of mutual concern.

This year, the lntercultural Council is entering its first full year of operation and in recognition of this, my department's Estimates provide for in creased support for the council's operations. Mr. Chairman, it is the priority of this admin istration to assist ethnocultural groups that are actively striving to preserve, develop and share their cultural heritage and identity with other Manitobans. To this end, a major first task of the lntercultural Council in consultation with the ethnocultural community was to review and recommend my department's support programs to ethnocultural organizations and groups.

Based on these recommendations the Multicultural Grant Program has been revised to more closely reflect the needs of the commun ity. This progr am assists non-profit Ma nitoba ethnocultur al groups and organizations in the operation of cul tural and heritage programs and in the development of special projects. Funds for the Mu lticultural Capital Grants Program have also been increased significantly. This program provides for the acquisition and renovation of facilities which house ethnocultural groups' activities to preserve their heritage.

My department's Lingu istic Support Program, which provides assistance for the teaching of ancestral languages, will also reflect changes recommended by the lntercultural Council. This program recognizes that one's heritage language serves to form a link between self, parents and other members of an ethnocultural com muni ty and helps to achieve a greater understanding of one's roots. Lotteries funding for this program in 19 84-85 has doubled from the previous year. This admin istration is deeply commit ted to preservation and sound management of Manitoba's heritage resources.

In the past year the government-appointed Historic Sites Advisory Board began to develop a theme framework which could be used to review and priorize the main gaps of heritage development to ensure a balanced representation of the peoples and regions of the province. The framework will serve as a guideline for increased emphasis on surveys and research into neglected areas of our histories, such as the history of our first people's labour history and the role that women have played in shaping our province.

Greater development in these areas is already taking place through the activities of the Provincial Archives. As well, greater activity within the private sector will be encouraged. Activity with respect to the designation of provincial historic sites has increased dramatically. For example, prior to 1981 only three buildings had been designated and were protected under The Historic Sites and Objects Act. Since 1981, four buildings have been designated. Last year, the Historic Sites Advisory Board recommended nine buildings for designation, seven for ident ification and 12 being of local significance.

These recommendations are currently being pursued by my staff. At the present time, there are 11 plaq ue-unveiling ceremonies scheduled for 19 84-85. Mr. Chairman, our present and future culture is shaped by the way we live tod ay. In this context, it is most appropriate that dur ing the past year recreation was incorporated into my department's mandate. Recreation activities broadly defined are those things that people do at leisure and that contribute to balanced individual growth.

Recreation has an almost unlimi ted potential to develop lifeskills, to promote and maintain healthy independent lifestyles, to create cohes ive communities and to contribute to shaping our future. In communit ies thr oughout Ma nitoba, culture, heritage and recreation activities are largely dependent on local decisions and self help based on volunteers. The volunteer who provides leadership and co-ordinates these activities must be an object of provincial support.

To this end my department Is concerned with the development of volunteers and volunteer boards and has signed a program consultant to work with them. lt is a major focus of my department to stimulate and suppor t local initiativ es that provide culture, heritage and recreation opportunities. In order to provide services that will meet needs, the Regional Services Division provides the department with a regional identity and allows for improved access to services and information by groups and individuals in 1496

Monday, 4 June, 1184 the community. Our regional staff located in The Pas, Thompson, Dauphin, Brandon, Gimli, Beausejour and Morden are the first point of contact for all departmental programs as well as fitness and sports programs offered to the Department of Health. Recently I completed a series of regional meetings di rected at identifying the needs of recreational groups and promoting co-operation and effective utilization of resources among culture, heritage and recreation groups.

These meetings have reinforced my belief in the value of consulting regularly with client organizations and individuals to obtain their feedback about our policies and programs. Last year, acting on information received at regional meetings and in discussions with various organizations, a number of changes were made to the department's Community, Cultural and Heritage Grants Programs. Four new programs were introduced: Public Events Sponsorship, Skills Transfer, Co-ordination Assistance and the Community Cultural Council's Program.

After one year of operation, these programs have been fine tuned to better meet the needs of commu nit y organizations. Staff responsible for the administration of these and other grants programs have been brought together into an essential grants administration unit. I would also indicate that this year's lotteries funds will again be made available in the form of demonstration grants to stimulate the development of cultural councils of Rural and Northern Manitoba. Mr.

Chairman, you will recall that last year the department provided support to the first Winnipeg International Children's Festival and the Children's Chataqua which toured 29 communities during the summer. This year the department will again provide financial support to the four-day Children's Festival, which concluded yesterday, and the tour which featured performers from Manitoba, Canada and around the world. In addition the department will provide support to a Women's Folk Festival Tour, which will occur this summer. Mr.

Chairman, the existence of adequate facilities is fundamental to the development of culture, heritage and recreation programs at the local level. Hi gh operating costs and economics preclude major new construction in many communities and underscore the need for existing facilities to be utilized to their fullest potential. In recent years, the need for renovations that will help to increase the potential use of facilities, to extend their life, or to conserve energy, has become evident.

In the near future I will be announcing a capital grants program which will cost-share renovations to community, cultural, heritage and recreation facilities. In the area of public libraries, the department will continue to provide consultation and support for the establishment, development and maintenance of public library services throughout the province. As wel l, I recently annou nced an allo cation of $1 75,000 from lottery revenues for the Li brary Capital Grants Program for Rural and Northern Manitoba.

In the past year the department strengthened staffing for the development of telecommunications policy and staff began a review of policies related to competition in telecommunications. In the coming year we will participate in both the Canadian Radio, Television and Telecommunications Commission hearings on interchange competition and in the Federal Department of Communications national review of tele communications policy. As well, my department will take

part in negotiations with the Federal Government on outstanding issues related to cable television, including pay TV and the extension of service to small communities. Mr. Chairman, recently my department assumed responsibility for providing assistance to non-profit Native com munic ation societies that served the communication needs of Native people.

At the present time the main recipient of these funds is Native Communications Incorporated, whose purpose is to promote and facilitate communications in the Native languages throughout the province, by radio, television, newspap er, and any other like forms of mass communication.

Turning to support to major cultural and heritage institutions, operating support to the Centre Cultural Franco-Manitobain, Centennial Centre Corporation, the Museum of Man and Nature, the Ukrainian Cultural and Educational Centre, Brandon Centennial Auditorium and the Winnipeg Art Gallery will be maintained within the government's overall financial gui delines of 3 percent on grants.

I'm pleased to announce that the province's grant to the Mani toba Arts Council will be increased significantly this year to enable the council to continue to place emphasis on assistance to smaller arts groups, including artist-run service organizations. The council will also increase the maximum value of its awards to individual artists. As well, it will intr oduce programs to provide support to individuals and groups for special projects including affirmative action projects. Mr.

Chairman, it is to the credit of all Manitobans, that a recent study on the arts submitted to the Ontario Minister of Citizenship and Culture, found that total revenues per capita for the performing arts were higheet in Manitoba. The Manitoba Arts Council, by special arrangement with my department and in co-operation with the private sector, will contribute to the expected elimination of the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra's $400,000 accumlated deficit.

As indicated in the Throne Speech, I expect that in the very near future we will enter into a federal-provincial communications and cultural enterprises development agreement which will focus on our numerous advances in the field of communications and on the economic and social benefits of Manitoba's cultural resources. In this context I anticipate announcing several new policy ini tiatives in support of the production, distribution and marketing of Manitoba's cultural industries, specifically the film and publishing industries.

These new in itia tives are being develope d in con� •Jitation with cultural workers in recognition of their imr rtant contribution to Manitoba's cultural identity. In closing, Mr. Chairman, I wish to acknowledge the many individuals throughout Manitoba who di rect their efforts and channel their creativity into the development of culture, heritage and recreation in our province.

No matter what the eco nomic ci rcumstances, these activities continue to flourish because of the interest and co-operative efforts at the local level and by virtue of the contribution of culture, heritage and recreation activity to the enrichment of our lives. Thank you. 1497

MondaJ 4 June, 1984 MR. CHAIRMAN: Consistent with conventional and customary ways of proceeding in this Committee of Supply, the Chairperson now calls upon the lead ing opposition critic to give his reply, if he so desires, to the opening statement by the Minister. The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't really have much to comment on at the present time. In fact, the Minister's statement is very wide-ranging and does answer a lot of questions that might have been put to him.

I would then prefer just to move into the Estimates with questions to the Minister and I'm sure that we'll have some questions to bring up to him regard ing his statement. So, Mr. Chairman, I would prefer to move right into the Estimates. MR. CHA IRMAN: Before we move into the Estimates, the Chairperson now cordially invites the members of the departmental staff of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation to kindly take their respective places. We shall defer consideration of Item 1.(

a) relating to the Minister's Salary as the last item for consideration by this committee. We shall begin our deliberation with the consideration of Item No. 1.(bX 1) Executive Support: Salaries of Admin istration and Finance unit; and Item 1.(bX2) Other Expenditures. If there are any broad areas of concern that are not specifically covered by the other more specific items here is the appropriate item under which such broad areas of concern can be addressed. The Member for Stur geon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I have perused the report of the department since it was received last week, or presented last week, to the House. I've had the opportunity to look over some Orders-in-Council and some of the grants that have been announced in the news releases. I find that I came across many in there that don't refer to a program. Many of the releases that we have, the program that the funds have been advanced under, is not mentioned. Now I don't know that this is the spot - the Executive Support. But I would ask under the Executive Su pport if the Minister has increased this particular area since last year? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The increase is as it shows, was the question in terms of staff ing or expenditures? MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, let me put it this way. Are the increases of expenditur es for Salaries, and Other Expenditur es, basically because of the increase in salaries or was there an increase in staff? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, there is inc rease in one position in the Executive Support function that is of a co-ordinator to work with the ethnic lntercultural Council and the ethnic Commi ttee of Cabinet.

There's a net increase of 21.1 thousand which is a result of the overall increase of $35,000 which is partially offset by the decrease due of $1 5.2 thousand which is related to the fact that there Is no 27th pay period this year as there was last year. In Other Expenditures there's a net increase of $5.5 thousand which is a result of an Increase for expenditures related to new executive director which is partially offset by the decrease of $1, 600 as a result of an upward adjustment In the federal sales tax made In 1983-84 only. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Chair man, at the beginning of my statement on this item I mentioned there are programs, or grants, being given that don't relate to the programs. Is in this Executive Support group of people, people who are being involved in grants to different organizations that do not come under a specific program? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: No - all of the grants are adminis tered either through the Grants Adminis tration Unit in conjunction with the regional staff or the specific branches of the department. lt might be helpful If the member would give me some examples of the kind of grants he's ref erring to that don't seem to fit under the program then I could maybe better answer the question. lt may be, and I should remind the member, that these are the Estimates of the department. The funds that relate to lottery-based programs are not included and have never been included in th e department's Estimates.

A numb er of the gr ant programs are funded through lotteries and therefore don't appear in the appropriations. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I'll give you one small example - The Flin Flon Band Parents Associaton for $750.00. That was back in May of 1983, but that is the type of grant that does not seem to be under any program. How is that come by? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'll have to take that as notice. I don't know of that specific grant. What I'll do is provide the information, maybe a bit later today, either later this afternoon or this evening if we're still sitting. I'm not aware of that specific grant.

I'd have to - I'm just looking at staff - they don't seem to know of that one offhand either - so I'll provide that information a bit later today for the member. MR. F. JOHNSTON: As I explained to the Minister it isn't a questioning of the grant it's just ... HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, I appreciate that. MR. F. JOHNSTON: . . . what type of program it comes und er. Pass, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(bX 1)-pass; 1.(bX2) -pass. 1.(cX 1) Research and Planning: Salaries; 1(cX2) Other Expenditu res - the Memb er for Stu rgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister just annou nced in his new statement several areas of research that is going to be done. I can't find them all immed iately, but I think the Minister will recognize that through this statement he referred to several places where there would be new research done, studies made, evaluation of programs, etc. Is the department 1498

Monda� 4 June, 1884 und ergoing or still und ergoing a complete evaluation of the programs within the department? When I read the discussions that took place last year in the department, the Minister did refer to a program that would be enhancing the department and changing many of the programs. Is this research still going on and how many people would be involved in it and is there an intention to change many of the programs? HON. E. KOSTYAA: There has been an ongoing review with respect to most of the programs and most of the gr ant programs that are adminis tered by the department.

This has been an ongoing process that has been contin ued over the last couple of years. I'll give some specific examples of what has taken place. We did a review of the various cultural grant programs that provided assistance for, basically, communiti es outside of Winnipeg, like our cultural councils, what was formerly called the Tour Hosting is now called the Public Events Spons orship, Co-ordination Assistance Grants and that was done about a year ago which resulted in some revision to the grant programs which were put in place in the beginning of the last fiscal year.

About a year ago we also started a review of the Mu seum's Grants Program, and we have ind icated a general policy thrust in terms of that program. We're now working with the Association of Manitoba Museums to finally define the actual grant program which will be in place later this year. A couple of years ago, there was a review of the Library Capital Grants which resulted in some changes in that program over a year ago. The areas that are under active review right now are Support to Schools. We have in the past provided support for a number of years to art education schools. We are reviewing that.

We are reviewing the assistance to provincial organizations. We provide a numb er of grants to provincial organizations like the Manitoba Association of Cu ltural councils, th e Associated Manitoba Arts Festivals, museum organizations and recreation organizations. We are reviewing all of those programs right now.

Separate and apart from that, we have had policy work developing, policy options in the area of cultural industries, particularly looking at film and publishing which will result in some provincial programs and is also tied to the current negotiations with the Federal Government on a cultural industries sub-agreement with the Federal Government under the ERDA umb rella. Apart from that, through the Film Classification Board, is the review that I made mention to the member last Friday, I believe it was, dealing with video and film classification.

In terms of staff, the stall of this branch is lour and it's been lour for a couple of years now. They also rely, in terms of doing the policy work, on resources in the specific branches that are charged with the responsibility of admin istering those programs. From time to time, people are brought in on specific contract to do specific areas of research. MA. F. JOHNSTON: The Min ister mentioned the Jntercultural Council. I believe he also mentioned, under the above item, that there was somebody working within the executive of his department with the lntercultural Council.

I make reference to a news release that says, when the Minister was making announcements to some cultural groups who received grants, in making the announcement, the Minister said : the newly formed lntercultural Council is reviewing present criteria for awarding of grants and will make recommendations on the program in 1984-85 fiscal year to ensure the available resources are used in the best possible way to serve the needs of the commun ity. That's very straightforward.

Has the gentleman you referred to from your Executive Department been working with the lntercultural Group and obviously they have, and where do these recommendations, which maybe should be discussed under the lntercultural item in the Estimates, but are these recommendations nearly ready, are ready, or what status are they in? HON. E. KOS TYAA: Mr. Chairman, the recommendations have been made by the lntercultural Council a few months ago, have been approved and are in place. In fact, the new grant guideli nes have recently been printed and we could supply the member with copies of the new grant guidelines.

I believe they're just In the process of yoing out to the community organizations. I believe they're in thE. process of being mailed at the present time. There were changes to two grant programs. One was the grant program that supplied operating projects or capital grant support to the ethno cultural community and the other was a Linguistic Suppport Program. Both of these programs have been in place for a num ber of years and they've been adjusted on the basis of the recommendations from the Jnt ercultural Council. MA. F.

JOHNSTON: I'm sure the lntercultural Council is very valuable to the Mi nister because they're out there, they're in the firing line and can be very helpful to the whole department and to the Research Department, but is the Minister allowing the lntercultural group to make all the recommendations without having his Research Department work with them very thoroughly? Let's be very frank about it.

Sometimes you get recommendations that the Research Department might recommend to the Minister saying that this just won't work type of thing; and on that basis, there has to be some discussion with whoever makes decisions or recommendations regarding the council, or regarding the grants, etc. - (I nterjection) - Pardon me, whoever makes the recommendation should be working with the government departments very closely because of their research and knowledge of the departments. HOI'' E. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, even though we're not on that line, it might be worthwhile for me to just sp �nd a mo ment outlining the structure of the lr.tercultural Council and then relating it specifically to the question that was put before the committee. The lntercultural Council, as the member is probably aware, is made up of representat ives from the various ethnocultural communitie s in the province and has, I believe, about 70-odd members. Those members are appointed in the main, or selected, or elected, by the communities themselves. 1499

Monday, 4 J-., 1114 The council, itself, has structured itself into a number of sub-comm ittees to look at specific areas of interest and activity, not exclusively, those comm ittees include education and youth, cultural sub-committee, immigration and settlement sub-committee and I believe there is a public relations or public inf ormation sub­ committee. Those sub-commit tees meet separately and apart from the council and review specific areas and then make recommendations to the council executive and thereby to the council itself and eventually to the government.

Staff from the various departments that relate to those comm ittees sit in on the meetings of the sub­ commit tee and provide for a two-way flow of communication with the sub-committees when they're looking at specific areas. As an example, when the cultural sub-committee was reviewing the grants of our department, staff resource from our department was there to commu nicate and discuss with them directly the grants program, so there was a two-way communic ation flow there. The same holds true of other sub-comm ittees. Some of them relate to other departments of government.

Immigration and settlement relates to the Department of Employment Services and Income Security. There are staff representatives from that department that sit in on the su b-committee so there is dir ect com mun ication there. So there is that level of communication in terms of the development of the recommendations. The recommendation is ultimately made to the government. There is the review by staff of the department in terms of the recommendation and they thereby make a recommendation to me and to Cabinet in terms of whether or not we should accept or reject or alter the recommendations.

In the case of the operating grants, we accepted most of the recom mendation and made some minor changes, or didn't accept some minor areas In terms of their recom mendations on those grants. So, my answer is a bit lengthy, Mr. Chairman, by I think it gives the context of how the council is operating and how it functions in relation to the recommendation process to government. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, then I would refer to the Research and Planning Department as to what their function is.

When we say research, it's obvious they are resea rching areas of this department to be looking at or going into, and then of course planning what the program may do. How many people does that group have and can the Minister give me some outline of the type of research they are involved in? I'm sorry if I missed it in the opening statement. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't think it was really contained in the opening statement. The department has a dire ctor, two planning and program analysts and one secretary.

I should add that this branch was formed, re-formed I guess is a better term, when the Department of Fitness, Sport and Recreat ion was disestablished. Part of the staff of that were formerly in the planning

section there came into the deparment and were merged with the small planning branch that existed in the former Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources. The branch's mandate is to review both new and existing programs in the department. I think I answered part of the question in terms of one of my previous answers when I went through the areas that we have undertaken reviews in the past in terms of ongoing grant programs of the department, and on the basis of that review, made changes in those grant programs.

I also indicated an area of new activity such as Cultural Industries, which was a kind of a new thrust or new area that the branch was involved In doing research and planning for the potential of new programs. That is a brief outline in terms of the operations of the branch. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This is a small item, but the name was changed from Planning and Development to Research and Development. Is the Minister saying that when he received the responsibil ity for recreation that they changed the name and the deparment became larger? lt doesn't appear that it became larger. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: No, it didn't become larger in terms of what existed in the previous department and what existed in the present department. it's the same size. I do have a copy of the department organizational chart, which I'm pleased to pass on to the member, which may or may not help in the review of these Estimates. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Yes, I would like to have that thank you.

I believe the Minister said that he received some staff from Recreation and quite frankly it doesn't appear that the department actually grew, and the Minister just said it didn't grow, so did I miss something there that you received extra staff or received staff from Recreation and that the department is still the same? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm informed that last year's figures are readjusted to show what would have existed under the previous department, but the net impact is that there was no increase between what existed in the former department and what existed in either of the former departments.

The name change, I'm Informed, was a director from the Department of Finance that has suggested common names for all such branches in all departments of government. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(1 )-p ass; 1.(c)(2)- pass. 1.(d)(1); 1.(d)

(2) Communications: Salaries, Other Expenditures - the Memb er for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, there's a breakout here of Salaries for the previous year. There isn't much change in the Salaries, but when I take a look at the Estimates for the previous year and I see Communi cations and then I read the rundown of, for instance, disbur sements regarding the Gazette and under Commun ications we just had the Manitoba Gazette, Queen's Prin ter, etc. We still have that under this new set of Estimates'84-85, so I am assuming that this Communications Department is new or larger or something that was not in the department before. I did 1500

Monday, 4 June, 1884 see some discussion in last year's Estimates regarding a communications officer that was appointed last year, so this obviously is something new in the department, or it appears to be obvious that there's something new. HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, there isn't anything new, it's just the restructuring of the branches of the department. This salary and other expenditur e line is what the member refe rred to in terms of, I think it was referred to, in last year's Estimates as a communi cations officer .

Again, this is part of the structuring of su b-branches within the department that have been dictated by the Department of Finance. In this area, there is no change from what was in place last year. There was an addition last year of the commu nications officer and that is what the member referred to. There was comments right at the opening remarks of the Estimates and this is one and the same. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: The Mini ster said the item appropriation included a communic ations officer? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. R. BANMAN: What salary range are we looking at? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I'm just trying to find it. The staff are looking for the details. There are two positions. There's a communic ation officer and an admin istrative secretary in those positions. In terms of the actual detail, I believe it's $32,000 for the officer herself and the rest of it is related to the adminis trative secretary and I guess the other things that are charged against Salary. MR. R. BANMAN: When the Min ister says an ad minis trative secretary , does the admin istrati ve secretary do work for the commu nications officer? Is he or she assigned to the commun ications officer? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. R.

BANMAN: The Minister is saying there is two people that deal with what? Press releases, that type of thing? HON. E. KOSTYRA: They deal with all aspects of communic ation in the department. lt includes media releases, the various publications that are put out by the various branches of the department.

There's a whole series of publications that come out through the Historic Resour ces Department in terms of the pla quing program, there's the department newsletter that comes out on a qu arterly basis that goes out to the community that's served by the department and there's also regional newsletters that she provides assistance for, and other activities such as the annual report; all areas of communic ations with respect to the department. MR. R. BANMAN: The government, about a year-and­ a-half ago, annou nced that they were centralizing commun ications and making it responsible to the Premier.

How does a communications officer, what kind of structure is there when they're doing press releases? Does the commun ication officer first have to clear that through the Premier's Secretariat there? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I believe, I guess the question would be better answered under the Executive Council Estimates in terms of central. But I believe the process is !hat media releases are drafted for minis terial approval and there's an editing function that is done by Information Services to insure that performs with the overall. I believe that is the process. MR. R. BANMAN: We ll, Mr. Chairman, I won't pursue that.

I guess we'll have to ask the Premier those questions when his Estimates come forward. I just would like to point out, Mr. Chairman, that one of the big attacks on the previous government, the then Lyon administr ation by the then NDP opposition, was on the hiring of I believe something like six communic ations officers for a number of departments. What we see here right now is that every department has their own communications officer and even have an adm in. secretary which means that while in opposition they were berating the previous administr ation for hiring a Jew communications officers.

They now when in government take t:-Je other tact and put a communi cations officer in every department. I just want that on the record and we'll be asking the Premier some more questions with regard to that when his Estimates are up. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Minister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I should note that in terms of the overall commu nication resources, and overall government, I don't believe there's been any increase in overall communications. But as the member says that question is best left for those particular Estimates. MR. R.

BANMAN: Is the Minister saying that there are no new SMYs with regard to communications, I mean desig nated as communi cations officers within the government services? HON. E. KOSTYRA: As I unde rstand it In terms of the overall, I didn't say there were no new SMYs, but in terms of the overall, commun ication resources in terms of staff has not increased in the overall terms. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(d)(1)-pass; 1.(d)(2)- pass. 1.(e)( 1), Financial Services; Salaries. 1.(e)(2), Other Expenditur es - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. � JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I believe this is the place that we could ask about the transfers regard ing thP. reconciliation statement because it's transfers of money. Maybe it's in Admin istrative Services I'm not sure. MR. CHAIRMAN: Th� member may ask the questions. MR. F. JOHNSTON: There's quite a list here, and we know that the Minister took over Recreation. lt became Cultur al Affairs and Recre ation, Recreation added to 1501

Monday, 4 June, 1984 it. Executive council - 11 3,000. I wonder if the Minister could just give a brief rundown of the transfers of functions. Pardon me - just before he starts, the main one, of course, being fitness recr eation and sport. Could he while giving us a breakdown - just the part of that department that has come un der the Mini ster's jurisdiction because I notice he does have under himself and the Deputy Minister a special advisor on recreation? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Sorry, could the member please repeat the last question. I didn't ... MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Well, I just said could he give us some detail about the part of the sports and recreation department that came to him. I just said I note also that the Minister has under the Deputy Minister a special advisor on recreat ion. So what parts of the recre ation department are being admin istered by you at the present time? I'm referri ng to the 2 million, 1.25. HON. E. KOSTYRA: In response to the first que stion.

In deal ing with the transfers of function from, and to, that long list that appears a little way down the page, those all relate to staff that were, and this goes back I think over a year ago now. lt happened just at the time in the last Estimates when the creative services function from the specific depar tments were all amalgamated within the Queen's Printer . So all of those transfers relate to staff and, I guess, other expenditures related to the creative services staff that were formally lodged in each department are now part of the Queen's Printer staff.

So that is all the transfer of functions listed from exec utive council down though there. In terms of the fitness, recre ation and sport the basic disestablishment of the department took the sport function and incorpor ated them into the Department of Health. All the recreational resources were transferred to the Department of, as it was then called, Culture and Historic Resources.

They include the Regional Services Branch that exists, and I made mention to in my opening remarks, in each of the regions of the province; includes the recreation resources staff that are centered here in Winnipeg, and provide esse ntial services for the recreation organizations throughout the province. lt included I think a small numb er of people in the planning branch which I ind icated previously, I think one or two positions in administration. I believe that is the components of the previous Department of Fitness, Recreat ion and Sport that came to our department.

The special advisor on recre ation is the former Deputy Minister of Fitness, Sport and Recreat ion, Mr. AI Miller. He was reclassified as a special advisor to the Deputy Min ister on Recre ation. I'm sorry. I've just been informed that in terms of the response that I gave to the initial question there's two exceptions to that. The Department of Northern Affairs - that transfer is a transfer of a grant that is payable to the Native Commun ications Incorporated.

That grant was formerly admin istered through the Department of Northern Affairs and it was determined that since this department has responsibility for a tele commun ications polic y that gr ant should be adminis tered through the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recre ation. So that is the figure of 123, 100. The Department of Labour is a transfer of one position to the telecommunications branch, an ind ividua l who's involved in telecommunications research in our department.

He was in the Department of Labour , I believe as a special advisor to the Assistant Deputy Minister and because of his particular skills he was transferred into our department. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Jus t one question. So the others, other than the labour and the Northern Affairs, the others, were transferred into the Queen's Printer's Department which includes creative services? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That's correct. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I don't see anything that says creative services. But I've jotted it down and when we get to the Queen's Printer I'll ask on that. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Ok ay. MR.

CH AIRMAN: 1. (e)( 1) - the Member for La Verend rye. MR. A. BANMAN: Could the Minister ind icate the special advisor on recrea tion, the former Deputy Ministers? Is his salary in this section? HON. E. KOSTYAA: No, it's in Executive Support. The Member for Sturgeon Creek asked the question here but his salary is part of the Executive Support. MR. A. BANMAN: He reports directly to the Deputy Minister? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. A. BANMAN: Is he doing special programs for the government or what's he doing right now? HON. E. KOSTYRA: At the present moment he is off on extended sick leave.

He had a heart by-pass operation about two months ago now and he is recovering from that. He is recovering, well I might add and will be coming back in the fall. I'm not certain if it's going to be on a full-time basis initia lly or on some part-time specific project basis. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(e)( 1) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Just while we're here I'm sure the Minister can give us rundown of the transfer of functions too. What did Business Development get from Cultural Affairs and Natural Resources. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The transfer to Bus iness Development and Tourism was a transfer of one position to the Department of Busi ness Development and Tourism and the transfer to Natural Resources was also a transfer of one position and the resu lting salary and associated costs. MR. F. JOHNSTON: When the Min ister says one position, was it because they needed people and you 1502

MondaJ, 4 June, 1984 didn't, or was it a particula r program or some thing that should be in the other department? HON. E. KOSTYRA: it is a bit of both. In the case of Business Development and Tourism, it was a position of - I'm not sure of the correct title, I guess it would be best to ask there - but the position dealing with the cultural aspects, particularly of tourism and business development. In the case of Natural Resources, the person is involved in the heritage field and is working within the Parks Branch on heritage activities that relate to park planning and development of parks. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The $100,000 for the Jobs Fund, did he find that out of his department from programs that were going to be going on any way and that they will now come under the Jobs Fund? What will the Jobs Fund be doing in the Cultural Affairs? HON. E. KOSTYRA: This is a transfer from the Jobs Fund into our department. Wha t it is, unde r the Manitoba Jobs Fund last year there was a program of capital grants for multicultural facilities.

That was a program that was previously in the department at a level of, I believe, $60,000.00. it was moved into the Jobs Fund and enhanc ed from $60,000 to $1 00,000 last year and it's now been removed from the Jobs Fund and placed back into the depar tment. The transfers of $10 0,000 though, we've enhanced the program within the department to $1 50,000.00. That comes up under Cultural Grants unde r another appropriation - $175 ,000, I'm Informed. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Mini ster said it was the Multicultural Grants Program? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mult icultural Capital Grants Program. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Was that in the department previously? HON. E. KOSYTRA: Yes it was. As I indicated, prior to last year it was in the department at a level of $60,000.00. 1t was moved into the Jobs Fund last year and the level increased from $60,000 to $1 00,000; and this year it's moved out of the Jobs Fund, back into the department. That is showing $1 00,000.00. As I indic ated under another item, it's under Cultural Grants and it's at a level of $17 5,000 this year. lt's been in place for about 10 years, the program, at lower levels . MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chair man, the Financial Services Division, as it's described in the Annual Report, is - and it's very clear - respo nsible for the finances of the department and perso nnel, I believe, is involved in it. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm going to have to just clari fy. Again this is part of the rest ructuring that has taken place, so the

section I believe the member is referring to is the overall adminis tration and financial

section as it existed before. This is just ona branch of the overall adminis tration in Finance, so it doesn't relate to the personnel function, it relates strictly to the financial planning, budget program and systems audit. MR. F. JOHNST ON: On Page 25 it refers to it, so you basically take the personnel management out of it, out ol your Annual Report? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm just searching for a copy of that. lt sounds like that's what is taking place there. The perso nnel function, that was part of that branch before, is under Admi nistrative Services; that's where that is contained. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I would say to the Min ister, as he knows, that I'm fairly new to this area, and the grants that have been given out under different programs, and I see some in Orders -in-Council, some fairly healthy grants, and I'd ask the Minis ter what criteria your financial department goes through to make sure that the money that is forwarded from the department or from the government is basically used for what it was given for.

In other words, there is a fairly large grant here to the Franco Society, I believe it was $G1 ,000, and it was for carpeting, I believe, and upgrading of facility and I'm sure there's a program to handle that. There's another one that Cultur e, Heritage and Recreation passed a grant of $50,000 to the Filipino Association of Manitoba. There's one in the same for the Hindu Society of Manitoba and there's grants to several organizations of fairly good sized amounts of money. Now there's got to be a reason for giving them.

In two of these, it doesn't give a reason for giving them, so there's got to be - and I'm sure the department does and I'm just asking - what process does the department go through with follow-up to see that these things are being done? "The Culture, Heritage and Recreation passed in October 1983, a grant to the maximum amount of $40,000 to be made to the Centre Cultural Franco-Manitobain for a replacement of carpets and repairs to the heating and ventilation system ." Now is the grant automatically a total of $40,000 or up to $40,000.00.

Then the other two cases I've mentioned, I repeat myself, how are they handled, and what is the follow-up of the grants by the financial department of your department? HON. E. KOSTYRA: it depends on the type of grant. I'll respond to the specifics and then maybe to the general. The grant to the Franco-Manltoban Culture! Centre was a capital grant. There are a number of capital grants available to the institutions that are the resp·- msibility of the Province of Manitoba.

The member may be aware that the building is the property of the hovince of Mani toba and is adminis tered by the Centre through legislation that has set up that particular organizat ion. In terms of their capital grants, they make requests in terms of repairs that are needed for the facility. They are then evaluated by staff and approval is given. Payment is made upon recei ving the necessary information in terms of the project being completed. In terms of the other two grants, they were capital 1503

Mondq 4 June, 1914 grants, multicultural capital grants, that were paid up to the maximum that was allowed under the grant program. That grant program provides for grants up to $50,000 or one-third of the cost of the overall. In other words, the grant is up to $50,000, but cannot exceed one-third of the total cost of the project. Those grants are payable once the expenditures are made, so there has to be the necessary invoices that are a requirement of the Provincial Auditor.

In terms of some of the smaller grants, and again it depends on the grant program, but as an example there is a Co-ordination Assistance Grant Program that provides for small grants that are payable to organizations when they put on a workshop for training of students in a rural area. The process there is that they make initial application, tentative approval is granted subject to the actual event taking place and the application being processed after the events, so there is a two-stage process there.

They are given tentative approval initially to say that the grant program will provide assistance up to a certain level, then the actual event takes place and they have to file a report and there is a form that has to be filled out with the costs and revenues and all those kinds of things attached to it. In other cases, the organizations are required to file audited statements with the department in terms of grants they get. So it depends on the type of program.

The specific question of repairs to the centre were repairs dealing with emergency repairs to carpet for safety reasons, I understand, on that specific one. The Provincial Auditor also audits the book of that organization separately and reports separately on it. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, then we can discuss the grants later on, but the Minister just said that the two that I mentioned - two grants up to $50,000 each - that in other words they presented to your department, through the research people and approved by your financial people, a program that is going to cost $1 50,000.00? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: In that case those are either repairs or purchase of capital facilities, so they have to provide the information that they are undertaking renovations or new construction of at least $1 50,000 before they qualify for the $50,000.00. If the project was, as an example, only $90,000, the most they would qualify for under the Multicultural Capital Grants Program would be $30,000, but in no case can the grant under that program exceed $50,000.00. If if they were having a renovation plan for .5 million, then they would still only get $50,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)( 1) - the Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. R.

BANMAN: Are any of the funds that are allocated here, do any of them come from the Lotteries? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Under this line, no. I should indicate that the discussion we were not - particularly on this line we are talking about grants' process in general. The specific grants, the areas that we talked about, the answer is s till the same; no, they do not come from Lotteries, they come from appropriation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister referred to the federal program, the Canada-Manitoba Program, and there's a Communications and Cultural Enterprises

Section here and it refers to several areas of his department, films, etc. Have the financial people - and I would refer back to many of your research and planning people - have they satisfied themselves as to the program or how far away are you from the program that is the Canada-Manitoba Program that you referred to in your opening statement and of course is referred to in your announcements here from becoming fact? In other words, where does it stand? Where do your people stand with this program at the present time? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I would expect that the signing of the formal ERDA subagreement for Cultural Industries and Communication Enterprises would happen within the next two weeks. MR. F. JOHNSTON: There seems to be a rushing of announcements these days. Are the NDP running for an election, or the Liberals, federally? MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't think that's relevant. 1. (e)(1) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Adminis trative Services administrates the personnel. There has been virtually no change whatsoever, in fact a small decrease in that amount is that . . . MR. CH AIRMAN: Pardon me.

The Memb er for Sturgeon Creek is asking questions on an item which has not been called. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I'm sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: Can we pass this one first? 1. (e)(1)­ pass; 1. (e)(2)- pass. 1.(f)

(1) Administrative Services, Salaries; 1.( f)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister has explaine d that that department which was previously called the Finance and Administration now becomes two separate departments, Financial Services and now we have (

f) Administrative Services. What is the make-up of Administrative Services now? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The role and mission of the branch is to provide the department and its agencies with ad min istrative support services relating to administration, personnel management, legal and general administration, co-ordination and to ensure compliance with all relevant policies, practices, and procedures established by the government and the department. lt provides the full range of administrative and personnel services for the department including payroll, accounting, and other functions related to the administration of the department. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, when I take a look at Finance and Administration in the Estimates last 1504

llond8J, 4 June, 1884 year, we have a figure of $276,000.00. When we add the Financial Services and Admi nistration Services together in the new Estimates, we get a figure of $488,000.00. Now that seems like a healthy increase, somewhere in those two functions, let's put it that way. Can the Minister give us some idea for that increase? HON. E. KOSTRY A: If the member will note that the reconciled figures for last year are not that, but are basically the same than what exists In the Estimates for this year.

I presume that the facts of the difference between what was in print last year for these branches is the fact that there was the inclusion of the relevant sections of the Department of Fitness, Recreation and Sport and I believe the overall restrictions of the department had some staff moving around from specific branches, but as ind icated by the reconciliation that if one was to reconcile that, if it was in place last year, that it is in effect no increase. I could provide the details of how that reconciles if the member so wishes, but 1 believe that that outlines the way that it took place. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I'm just not with it. I'm admitting very clearly that I didn't quite follow that. I'm sure it's right and I'm sure it's there, but I didn't quite follow that. Your reconciliation statement last year, I'm looking at it now, Allocation of General Salary Increase - $240,000.00. Is that what the Min ister was referring to? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Chairman, I was referring to the figures that are shown on page 45 of the Estimate book on the left-hand side which show the expenditures for the year ending March 31s t, 1984, which show for those two branches relatively the same.

Well, in fact it happens to work out to be the same. In total expendit ures there's some small changes between Salary and Other Expenditures. That is what the Department of Finance, and I understand the auditor reconciles from the changes that have taken place, so in essence there what I'm saying is; you combine this together, there is no increase from that which was in place last year that was in place partially in the Department of Fitness, Recreation and Sport and in other branches of the Admini stration and Finance

section of the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)( 1) -pass; 1. (f)(2)-pa ss. 2.(

a) Culture, Heritage And Recrea tion Programs: Cultural Grants - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I think I know what the Mini ster is going to say, because the first question that was asked of the Min ister last year was, "What is the amount of," I believe, "the major grants in the Culture, Heritage And Recreation Programs," and I believe that's ... HON. E. KOSTYRA: 1 will go through the compl ete listing of the grants that come under this item.

The total amount is $7,363,900.00. lt breaks down as follows: To the Centre culture! franco-manitobain - $238,500, which is an increase of $6,900 from last year. The Manitoba Arts Council - $1,5 06,300, which Is an increase of $1 89,500.00. The Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation - $1 ,201 ,900, which is the same level as last year, exactly. The Manitoba Mu seum of Man and Nature - $2,825,500, which is an increase of $1 42,200.00. The Ukrainian Cultural and Education Centre - $10 9,800 and that is an increase of $3,200.00.

The Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium in Brandon - $40,000, which is a decrease of $13.5 thousand. The Winnipeg Art Gallery - $1 ,320,700, which is an increase of $38,500 from last year. The next one is the Heritage Conservation Service - $83,400.00. That's an increase of $2,400.00. Included in that Is a numb er of miscellaneous grants which are as follows: A special grants program for the Winnipeg Contemporary Dancers which is a deficit reduction program of $27,800, which is a decrease of $2.2 thousand from last year. A new special grant deficit program for the Manitoba Puppet Theatre of $1 0,000.00.

That is the listing of the grants and the increases or decreases as the case may be for each of them. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the grants are, the size of them, are very close to being the same like the Heritage grant of $1 ,300,000 is just plus $30,000 and your percentage increase on that size of a grant is very much in line actually. Of course, the only one that I would ask about first is that Brandon is down $1 3,000 at $40,000, which is a sizeable percentage decrease on that particular grant.

I wonder if the Minister could give us the reason why that one is down. HON. E. KO STYRA: That grant to the Brandon Centennial Centre is based on 50 percent of the deficit of the operation of that facility. Half the deficit is covered by the City of Brandon and half by the Province of Manitoba and I belie ve that's under the arrangements that were put in place when that facility was built. There's an adjustment downwards in terms of the deficit. MR. F. JOHNSTON: There's two others, Mr. Chairman. 1 believe it's the Arts, Central Arts is it, $1 89,000 increase and then Man and Nature is up $14 2,000.00. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The increase to the Manitoba Arts Council is a significant increase in terms of the other increases and it relates to the ongoing and imp roved activities of the Arts Council in terms of the support the• provide to the artists, artisans, and arts orr 'lnizations in the province. 1 made reference in my opening remarks to the fact that there is significant increase resources to the Arts Council to provide increased assistance to the clients that they support.

The member may be aware that all the major performing arts organizations in the province, the Winnipeg Symphony; the Royal Winnipeg Ballet; Theatre Centre; and other organizations are supported through the Manitoba Arts Council. 1505

Mon� 4 June, 1984 I believe the second question was related to the Museum of Man and Nature. That increase is 142,200 which is a little higher than the average, it's at 5 percent. The major reason that it's higher than the average is that there has been a significant rent in crease to the Museum of Man and Nature from Its landlord, its landlord being the Man itoba Centen nia l Centre Corporat ion. So you'll note that their in crease is zero, and the Museum of Man Nature is somewhat higher.

So it's a matter of inc reased cost as a tenant to the landlord, and the landlord is getting less of a grant than the tenant this year and, of course, they have increase for overall operating. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, Man and Na ture, the in crease there has been, over the years continued construction in there, and making that place a real credit to Manitoba. Are there any further plans for expansion of that? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Under another item in the Budget, and it's actually Expenditures Related to Capital Assets, there is a grant I believe of $1 00,000 for capital im provements to the Museum of Man and Nature. That is basically for im proved facilities. I believe they're presently working on a new gallery that's called Touch the Universe. the latest or the new project which is being worked on at the present time over, I think, a couple of years period adjacent to the Planetarium in the basement of the museum. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (a)- pass - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Manitoba Arts Council - do they have the grants for assistance to individual writers for publishing their work? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, I believe there's a grants program under the Manitoba Arts Council that are available for the commissioning of works by individual artists. I'm told it's to help them develop manuscripts. MRS. C. OLESON: Do you mean the actual publication of the work also? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm informed that those grants go to the publi shers for the publishing of specific manuscripts, not to the writer directly. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: In fact I just found the actual reference in the Annual Report. The publishing project grants are available to Manitoba book publishers who wish to publish a book by a Manitoba author. So that's the general reference of the program. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (a)- pass - the Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, going through the many annou ncements and Executive Council Minutes, I just jotted down, and if the Mini ster wants to refer me to do the different areas, fine, but there's a long list of programs - the Li brary Grants Program; Museum Grants Program; Public Events Sponsored Program; Recreation Faciliti es Program; Multicultur al Grants; Museum Mis cellaneous Grants Program; Recreation District Program; Amateur Arts Organization Program; Lingu istic Su pport Program; Northern Mani toba Recreation Associat ion; Skills Transfer Program; Equip ment for Remote Communit ies Program; local histories grants; Co-ordination Assistance Program; Community Arts Council Program - I believe that's replaced by Community Arts Program - Outr each Program; and Tour Hosting Program.

Are those programs all supported in the Cultu ral Grants? The reason I ask that is I'm aware in the Estimates of the departments that the Estimates relate very much to the adminis tration of these programs and the people involved, the salaries involved to adminis trate the programs. Am I right in assuming that all of the programs that I listed here come out of the 7.3 million? Or no, they don't. Pardon me, they don't. You gave me the list of the 7.3 million. So in other words then the programs that I have referred to, the monies, or the funding of them are further along In the Estimates? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I don't recall every specific listing that the member read. Most of those are not reflected In these Estimates. Most of those are programs that are funded under the lottery funds, lottery revenues that are allocated to Cultur e and Recreation. They are not reflected in the tax base appropriations of the department. They are all adminis tered by th e department and they are reflected in the Annual Reports that the member has. But most of those programs that he listed are out of lottery revenues and are not reflected in these Estimates and never have been in terms of the department.

There may be one or two on that list that he read that are part of the department. I believe he listed library grants. The libr ary operating grants are part of the grants that are in appropria tion. The library capital grants are under lotteries. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. 2.(a)- pass. 2.(b)( 1) Cultural Resources, Salaries; 2.(b)(2), Other Expenditur es; 2.(b)(3), Grant Assistance - the Member for Stur geon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Resources. I wonder if the Mini ster could tell me under Cultur al Resources what programs are adminis trated by them. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The specific grants - it might be helpful dealing with this item - there is an item noted Grant Assistance under this item 2.(b)(3). The grants that are admin istered directly through the department include The Manitoba Choral Fest ival; The Manitoba Drama Festival; The Opti mist Club of Assi niboia who I think the member is aware of; The Provincial Dance Festival; The Ho li day Festival of the Arts; The International Music Camp in the Turtle Mountains; The Canada Day Committee Fest ivities; The Manitoba Day Committee; and The Labour Day Committee Festivities.

The department is also responsible for the broad range of Cultural Grants programs that are administered 1506

llondeJ 4 June, 1184 through our regional staff and our Grants Administration unit including community cultural councils; the co­ ordination assistance grants; the public events sponsorship, which relate to this branch and lead to other branches of the department; and to assistance to cultural councils and provincial organizations that work in the cultural area, like the Associated Manitoba Arts Festivals, the Band Associations, music teachers and other such organizations. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Have there been any new programs or grants this year versus last year, as we refer to the HON. E.

KOSTYRA: In terms of the grants that are administered under 2.(b)(3), they are basically the same as the were - they are the same. I should make that statement more direct -t hey are the same as they were last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What is the sharing formula for lotteries funds, in other words, the split between the culture and the recreation? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The split has basically stayed the same as it existed before, except that that which was allocated to recreation and sport has been split into the portions that formerly went to sport, that relate to the Department of Health, and those that related to recreation now relate to the Department of Recreation.

The split, I'm informed, from lottery revenues that are available to the government are split 73 percent to the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation and the rest to the Department of Health for sport and fitness activities; and tha t 73 percent relates to recreation to the broad range of cultural activities including libraries and also heritage-related activities for museums, archaeological work and historic resources. MRS. C. OLESON: How much lottery money was spent on programs last year? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The lottery revenues that were available and spent for our department last year were $4.8 million and we expect that it would be the same this year. MRS. C. OLESON: The same this year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The same amount, yes. MRS. C. OLESON: Are there any new lottery programs that are coming into the Culture and Recreation Department this year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There has been some changes in some of the programs.

In terms of specific new programs, we anticipate later in the year to have some new heritage programs to relate to local community heritage programs such as plaquing in the area of archives, but they are still being developed and won't be in a position to formalize till sometime later in the year. In terms of other new programs, in terms of the cultural area, they're basically the same as they were last year in terms of the community culture councils, the co-ordination assistance grants, the skills transfer. Those are all basically the same. MRS. C. OLESON: What about the Recreation Grant Facilities Program?

Has it been announced for this coming year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, it has not been. I responded to a question, I believe it was a week ago, to her colleague, the Member for La Verendrye, that we will be announcing a replacement program and I expect that that will be ready to be public in terms of the details in about four weeks. I might just add, it will be similar to the program that existed for the previous two years. MRS. C. OLESON: Are there any funds anticipated from the 6/49 revenue into Cultural Affairs and Recreation? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: At the present time, there hasn't been final det ermination made with the Mini ster responsible for Lotteries, in terms of the revenues that are available from Lotto 6/49. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (b)( 1) -pa ss; 2. (b )(2)- pass; 2.(b)(3)-p ass. 2.(c)( 1) Recreation Services, Salaries; 2.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is this the group that analyzes the request for recreation grants or are they just the group that administers them? HON. E. KOSTYRA: This branch has a number of activities that Includes the facility's development.

There is professional, technical staff who are available, that provide a consulting service through our regional staff, for community organizations who need assistance In facility planning, construction or management or maintenance programs for the facility staff, go out and work with the community organizations in those areas. lt also has staff available for programs for special population groups looking at disabled seniors, children. We also have staff that provide leadership training opportunities and who liaise with major recreation and social organizations.

They also provide special services and consultation to provincial recreation agencies In the province. They don't directly administer the grants, though they provide the consultation - if I can put it that way - in terms of capital grants that are applied for under other progo ams.

The professional staff look at the grant aprlication in terms of the needs and the purpose they're being used for, because these staff go out on the field and are used, quite extensively, by the local recreation districts and associations and organizations in terms of providing liaison, so they have a good idea of the state of facilities throughout the province. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Would the equipment for remote communities program be an example of what would come under that, as far as recreation is concerned? 1507

MOr'ldaJ 4 June, 1984 HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, that program is through the regional service staff in the regions that relate to the Northern commu nities. There is a network of regional staff that are in place, as I in dicated, in a number of communities throughout Manitoba, in fact all of the regions, and those grants are adminis tered directly through the regional staff who evaluate them and then forward them on to the Grants Administration Unit for actual proces sing. MR. F. JOH NSTON: The equ ipment for remote communi ties, does it relate to Northern Manitoba Recreation Association? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Northern Recreation Association? MR. F. JOHNSTON: Northern Manitoba Recreat ion Association that makes recommendations on the remote commun ities program. HON. E. KOSTYRA: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c )(1) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I wonder if the Min ister could just give me some examples of the grants that go through that particular Recreation Services. HON. E. KOSTYRA: There are no grants that go directly through the Recreation Services branch. The capital facilities grant is a lottery-based or has been a lottery­ based program so that grants come out of lottery revenues.

The branch here provides for the consultation - the staff - that are there. They are professional facilities consultants who go out and assist the community organization in terms of their building plans, their renovations. They are technicians in the building area and they are able to provide the on-hands support that is needed by many communi ty organizations in the building, the managing, the mainten ance of their facilities. They don't give any grant directly. They do provide, as I say, consultation or advice on grants.

I've just been corrected, slightly , that there are two grants that are admin istered through the department. One is the grant to the Special Olympics which is for the dis abled and the Recreation Agencies grants. They are lottery-based grants, but they are administered through this branch. MR. F. JOHNSTON: How many people are involved in that particular department and is this a group that came from the recreat ion department? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The last question first; yes, this group, in total, came from the former Department of Fitness, Recreation and Sport.

The staff has one director, two facilities consultants, three recreation consultants and one admin istrative secretary. MR. F. JOHNSTON: That would make that sev en. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)( 1) -p ass; 2.(c)(2)- pass. 2.(d)( 1) Public Library Services: Salaries; 2.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures; 2.(d)

(3) Grant Assistance - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, my experience with libraries is not extensive, but goes back quite a ways when I was on council in St. James-As sini boia, and I found that we never had enough and we never had enough mon ey. A MEMBER: That's the cont inuing story of li braries. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Wha t function of government is different than that? MR. F. JOHNSTON: I learned that if you ever wanted to get into trouble, just change the library hours or do somet hing of that nature and you had some problems.

And rightly so. it's a reserve of knowledge that people certainly can't have in their own homes and put to far more use than most of us realize. There isn't much of a change in your Grant Assistance program, and it would appear as if your Salaries and Other Expenditures, which are the expenses and what­ have-you of the staff, but your Grant Assistance program has not changed that much. We are very aware in the opposition of the guidelines of the government, but are there future plans to do more for libraries, especially throughout the rural area of Manitoba?

There obviously isn't much this year as far as expansion of grants is concerned . As a matter of fact, when you look at it, if they were all to receive the small inc rease one might ask if there's any less public libraries out there. That would be my first question. Are there any less and is there any program, as I mentioned before, for more assistance to li braries? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The member is probably not aware, but there was a significant increase in the per capita grant to libraries outside of the City of Winnipeg last year. lt inc reased from basic $3.00 per capita to $3.50 per capita - which was an inc rease of in excess of 10 percent, so there was a significant incr ease to support rural libr aries last year. This year there is not any increase budgeted for in terms of the increase to the per capita