LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 8 March, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. James Walding (St. Vital): Pres­ enting Petitions ... Reading and Receiving Peti­ tions .. . Presenting Reports by Standing and Spe­ cial Committees ... MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY, Premier (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to have the opportunity this afternoon to say a few words on this the occasion of International Women's Day. Mr.

Speaker, it gives me pleasure this afternoon to offer a few words on this this day of International Women's Day; a day to recognize the contribution of women in the development of Manitoba; a day to remember the early suffragettes such as Nellie McLung, wh ose spirit and tireless energy helped to build Manitoba; a day to remind us all of the problems that are still facing women, and indeed the work and effort tha t does indeed lie before us as legislators in ensuring true equality between all men and women.

It is significant that the origins of International Women's Day go back to March 8th, 1908, in New York City, when hundreds of women tha t worked in the garment trade marched through the streets of New York, against the unjust working conditions which they were working in, dusty cond itions, sweat shop conditions, condit ions tha t involved fire traps, pro­ tests against th ose very conditions, and at the same time women of that period campaigned for the right to vote, the right to an eight-h our day, the right to improve working condi tions. Mr.

Speaker, today indeed, we see the increasing role of women, whether it be in the field of education or culture, whether it be in the field of community services or other social areas involving the development of our province. But prob­ ably the area, Mr. Speaker, where we most fell down in is in respect to those areas pertaining to the economic lot of women within our society. Indeed, women do still bear the brunt of the major burden of economic difficulties within our society; so indeed, the rate of unemployment is higher among women than men.

The women work generally for lower wages than men for the same or similar work and bear a greater burden of poverty in their old age. It's the task of us all to change this situation and ensure equality for women in every sense of the word. It's acknowledged tha t a greater attention to the prov­ ince achievement of women have indeed resulted in the celebration of International Women's Day and I, indeed, commend this thoug htful observance to all Manitobans. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. 170 MR. G.W.J. (Gerry) Mercier (St. Norbert): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We, on this side, Mr.

Speaker, are deligh­ ted to join with the First Minister and the government in recognizing International Women's Day and con­ gratulating all women in Manitoba for their achieve­ ments, acknowledging and recognizing their contri­ bution to society in Manitoba and working with them to improve our society. We do hope, Mr. Speaker, that the new government will continue the Advisory Council on the Status of Women which our government establis hed last fall in response to recommendations from women's groups dating back to 1972. We are also, Mr.

Speaker, looking forward to seeing the Family Law legislation which the Throne Speech referred to will be brought forward and which we anticipate is mainly the legislation deve­ loped last fall by our administration. Mr. Speaker, we do join with the First Minister on this important occa­ sion in recognizing women in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Gaming Control Commission until the end of March 31st of this year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources.

HON. AL MACKLING (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Conservation District of Mani­ toba Annual Report 1980. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Consu­ mer and Corporate Affairs. HON. EUGENE M. KOSTYRA (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour of submitting the Annual Report of the Public Utilities Board for the year ending December 31, 1981. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. VICTOR SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Pension Commission of Manitoba for the year ending December 31, 1981, the Auditor's Report on the Public Trustee of Manitoba for the year ended March 31, 1981; the Department of Finance Financial Report for the year ending March 31, 1981; a Return under Sec­ tion 66 of The Legi slative Assembly Act of Manitoba for the year ending March 31, 1981; a Return under

Section 13 of The Special Municipal Loan and Gen­ eral Emergency Fund Act for the year ending March 31, 1981; and the Financial Statements for the Prov­ ince of Manitoba, the Public Accounts in two volumes for the year ended March 31, 1981. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge) introduced

Monday, 8 March, 1982 Bill No. 10 , The Reciprocal Enforcement of Mainte­ nance Orders Act; and Bill No. 12 ,

An Act to Amend The Family Maintenance Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, wonder if I might direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 19 students of Grade 5, and 12 students of Grade 9 from Varennes School. These students are under the direction of Miss Northc liffe and Mrs. Yanchyshyn. The school is located in the St. Vital Constituency. On behalf of all the members, I bid you welcome this afternoon ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health, and I would ask him whether he can advise this House of the government's position on the announcement by the Federal Minister of National Health and Welfare that she will be seeking legislation to ban extra billing by doctors? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr.

Speaker, we would certainly welcome a meeting for all the Ministers of Healt h, different provinces would meet with the Minister; but we certainly do not agree that we sh ould predetermine or announce what would be discussed, and I don't think that we would agree with the Federal Minister at this time. This is some­ thing that should be discussed. It's not the major prob­ lem in Manitoba at this time, certainly. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, has the Minister heard from the Federal Minister in this respect, yet? MR. DESJARDINS: No. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, has the Minister heard from the Manitoba Medical Associ­ ation in this respect. or indeed in any other respect in the past few days. MR. DESJARDINS: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact, and the Minister has already alluded to it, that extra billing has not been a problem in Manitoba and is not today a problem in Manitoba, and it has been recognized by successive governments over more than a decade as a useful safety valve in negotiations, would the Minister be prepared to urge upon his federal counterpart the folly in pursuing a course. such as she has proposed in the past twenty-four hours, she is going to pursue, where extra billing is concerne d? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I wouldn't want to 171 make the same mistake tha t the Federal Minister made, and decide before a meeting if it's going to be discussed at a certain meeting. We don't mind dis­ cussing it. It's something tha t I don't think tha t we could make a commitment one way or another at this time. Times could change, but I must repeat that so far it certainly is not a major problem here in Manitoba. It could become a problem, but it isn't at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. CLAYTON MANNESS (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to a ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture.

As the Manitoba Marketing Council is finding itself hearing a large number of appeals, particularly on matters related to the dairy industry, could the Minis­ ter of Agriculture give this House some date as to when he expects to name additional members to that Council? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Agriculture. HON. BILLIE URUSKI (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Member for Morris, we will be announc­ ing those changes and additions to the Board when they will be made. MR. MANNE SS: A supplementary to the Minister, can he tell me when they will be made? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I hope as soon as possible. MR. MANNESS: Another question to the Minister of Agriculture, in view of the increasing number of con­ frontations and apparent lack of co-operation between sectors of the dairy industry, would the Minister give some indication as to how he will proceed to see re-established good harmony within the entire dairy industry? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, we will certainly, and have been offering our assistance to the dairy indus­ tries, to produ cers, to see that harmonious relations do exist. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.W.J. (Gerry) MERCIER (St.

Norbert): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Attorney­ General. Mr Speaker, in view of the assault charges which he has laid against Jimmy Mann of the Win­ nipeg Jets, could he explain why Paul Gardner of the Pittsbu rgh Pengui ns, who broke his stick over Doug Smail's head and back, was not also charged with assault? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the Hon­ ourable Member for St.

Norbert, as he well knows, for me to comment upon that question would in fact necessarily invite, by inference, a comment on the charges now before the court with respect to Jimmy Mann. I could not do that, it would be wrong, and it

Monday, 8 March, 1982 would be an error and he ought to know tha t it would be an error for me to do so. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the Honourable Minister of Fitness and Ama­ teur Sport. In view of recent reports with respect to minor hockey violence and assaults on referees, Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister and/or his department be prepared to consult with officials of the Greater Win­ nipeg Minor Hockey Association or the Manitoba Hockey Association to determine if there is any form of assistance or training or compensation that could be made through his department to encourage refe­ rees who perform a very thankless task, and I am not in any way being critical of them, Mr.

Speaker, but would he be prepared to do that in order that he might determine whether there is anything tha t his depart­ ment could do to assist in that area with respect to referees in minor hockey to reduce the violence that is occurring in minor hockey. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, this is under con­ sideration by an official of our department at this time, but I think that it might reach a little further than the Department of Fitness and Amateur Sports. It seems that the problems are most, lately anyway, with the parents of the children.

It 's something to help get the proper referees; tha t is being done; tha t was done by the Department in the past. Assistance was given to the Hockey Association to train their referees. I think the indication from the action of the Attorney-General that we want to do away with this form of violence, but I think it's more than that. I think that we'll have to start educating the parents of the players who are certainly in many cases sh owing a bad example and giving all the parents a bad name. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, a final supplementary question on another topic to the Attorney-General. In view of the statement in the Thr one Speech that steps have being taken to quicken the pace of translat­ ing existing statutes into French and in view of the report today in one of the daily newspapers, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Attorney-General could explain the steps that are referred to in the Th rone Speech. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable th e Atto rney­ General. MR. PENNER: Oui, bien sur, M. le President.

Yes, I would like to advise the House of some of the steps which, in fact, are being taken and at the same time note that it is an exceptionally difficult problem as members of the House will appreciate. A legal transla­ tion is an entirely different thing than ordinary transla­ tion. You have to have persons who are familiar with law because the mere change of a word, and words have sometimes many possible translations, might change the wh ole thrust of

an Act so what is required are legal translators. Unfortunately, people who are 172 bilingual in that sense are, in many instances, trained in the civil but not the common law so there's another kind of problem that has to be addressed, and what we are doing - it's a three-pronged approach. One is that we have contracted out the court Acts; in fact, the former Attorney-General took that step and I com­ mend him for it. It was a very wise move - to the University of Moncton and we expect they'll be ready by November.

With respect to the balance of the problem, it's a little bit complicated but what we are attempting to do, with the assistance of the Secretary of State, is to contract out more of the statutes in the Ottawa area. We're finding it difficult to get people with that facility, most of who m live in the Ottawa area, to come and to live in Winnipe g. So, we're trying to contract some of this out in the Ottawa area, but we want to develop that facility here so at the same time we have finally been able to recruit trainees, and again with the assistance of the Secretary of State we are training them on the spot.

As Monsieur Roger Turenne, the senior French language advisor to the Premier, has announced, we are again seeking the assistance of the Secretary of State to accelerate the training progra m. So a number of steps are being taken and I thank the former Attor­ ney General for bringing this matter to the attention of the House. It's a grave problem, and I may be making a Ministerial Statement on it next week. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-Russell): Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. Mr.

Speaker, since it's reported in the Manitoba Co-Operator that the introduction of a National Beef In come Stabilization Plan now appears dead, and because Ottawa has demonstrated that it's no longer interested in federal-provincial cost-sharing, which mi ght be - how is it quoted? - "high in cost and low in political return," and because Prime Minis­ ter Trudeau has said that the days were over when Ottawa would provide the provinces with funds, bil­ lions of dollars are going to be kicked in the teeth.

I wonde r, is the Minister now prepared to advise the beef farmers in this province when his stabilization plan will be introduced in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member, no doubt, has viewed the Throne Speech, and that announcement will be made as soon as all the details are put together. MR. McKENZIE: Mr Speaker, I sure thank the Hon­ ourable Minister for that answer which the beef pro­ ducers have been waiting for for weeks. I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, is the Minister prepared to advise the House, or the beef producers in the province who are facing the very extreme feed sh ortage, when he will come to their rescue and announce a feed program for those unfortunate farmers who are facing an extreme feed sh ortage in our province.

Monday, 8 March, 1982 MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I've had some calls that feed has been moving out of the Province of Manitoba to the Province of Saskatche wan, but I'm advised by staff, tha t in fact the re is no shortage on the global basis within the Province of Manitoba. There may be shortages in certain areas where feed supplies have moved out; certainly it's a concern of mine.

But I sh ould mention to the Honourable Member for Roblin that his colleague, the Member for Arthu r, told the beef producers last fall that there was a lack of support for any Beef Income Assurance Plan in the Province of Manitoba, and that there was no funds to them, unlike what we have proposed in the Throne Speech and will be following through, Mr. Speaker. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I'm only referring to the announcement in the Throne Speech to get the Minister's comments on the subject matter of beef stabilization funds in our province. I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, seeing that the Minister is not concerned and doesn't understand that there is a feed sh ortage, if he'd provide his staff with some time to go out to the sout hwestern part of the province and examine the shortage of feed that exists in that area. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I told the honourable member what information I had from the department; in fact, I did inquire about that very area. The fact that there were certain areas within the province where beef supplies had moved to the Province of Saskat­ chewan, and we were concerned about that.

However, staff do advise me that there is adequate feed supplies within the Province of Manitoba to meet the needs of cattle. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question either to the First Minister or the Minister of Natural Resources. Over the weekend, interested and concerned Manitobans have asked or sug gested that a Canadian court action be launched with respect to Garrison, in Washing ton.

My question to the Minister is whether or not the government is considering help­ ing with tha t kind of an action, with the funding and the costing of that kind of an action? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. MACKLING: As the Honourable Member for Lakeside no doubt knows, it would not be open to a government in Canada or, in particular, Manitoba to bring action in the United States. It would be open to us, I suppose, to fund or partially fund such an action.

Tha t kind of consideration has not been ruled out; however, as a government we think tha t we take the political process and leave the process of litigation to special interest groups. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I was perh aps search­ ing for this government to take some action that would measure up to their campaign promises. A supple­ mentary question, Mr. Speaker, can the government now indicate to us that they have abandoned that 173 parti cular campaign promise about funding and establis hing a Manitoba office in Washington? I'm aware, Mr.

Speaker, that they've opened an office in this building, but as my leader has indicated, the prob­ lem is Washingt on, not here in Manitoba. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated and I think my collegue, the Minister of Environment has indicated, that we have had conversations with the Federal Government, and an announcement will be made hopefully later this week confirming the arran­ gements that we have advanced to the Federal Government in respect to our presence in Washing­ ton.

I can assure the honourable member and all the members of this House, that there will be people work­ ing in Washington, D.C., advocating the interest of the people of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Government Services. I would like to ask the Honour­ able Minister approximately what area of this building is now assigned to the office of the First Minister of this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Gov­ ernment Services. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I think I would like to take that question as notice. I certainly don't have the information at hand but I'm prepared to bring it to the House for his attention. MR. GRAHAM: As a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Minister, has there been any additional requests from the First Minister for additional space for the operation of the people in his office? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, again, I would be prepared to bring that information at an appropriate time, whe n I have the information. If I had noti ce of question, I would have had it for him today. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the other day, I had a question addressed to me by the Honourable Member for River Height s, and I undertook to look into that matter immediately. He did see me on Friday at about II o'clock in the morning after the question period had ended, and I went to my office, telephoned a Mrs. Connie Peltz of 200 Lindsay Street who indicated to me that she had some doubt whether she qualified for the Critical Home Repair Program because of her income.

However, she did indicate that she had some concerns about telep hone response from the depart­ ment. I have looked into tha t matter and althoug h I haven't had anyone admit as to any deficiency there, I have given instructions that any inquiries be recorded and that immediate response be given. The lady also indicated to me that she had spoken to Mr. Filmon, the Honourable Member for River Heig hts,

8 March, 1982 who was not her MLA because she was unable to get in touch with her own MLA, Mr. Steen. I believe Mr. Steen is I can't remember his constituency. I asked her when she had communicated with the Honourable Member for River Heights and she'd indicated it was a Wednesday; it would have been February 24. I asked her if she had endeavoured to talk to me or my Execu­ tive Assistant and apparently she had not. The only other communication she had with anyone in this Legislative Assembly was a telephone call from the Honourable Member for River Heights, 15 or 20 min­ utes before I phoned her.

That is the information, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, just for the record, I think I ought to correct the member's references, I think he was referring to me. If he was, I am the Member for Tuxedo. MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is the Member for Tuxedo and Mr. Steen is from River Heights. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, can I then find out, in response to that situation, whether the Minister now supports the position of requiring that people get prior approval for repairs under the Critical Home Repair Program when they might occur at a time when prior approval is not possible, due to the emergent nature of the situation, such as a furnace replacement in the dead of winter when the weather is such that people could suffer during the course of time that would have to be awaited for the prior approval. Has he now said that he is going to change that policy or does the policy still stand? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I'll certainly look at that matter very closely, however, it's very difficult, or it would be very expensive to have departmental staff available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to deal with critical calls. There can be, for example, hot water tanks go out on the weekend, furnaces go out on the weekend; normally what happens is people call a ser­ viceman, however, if they do qualify their claim can be looked at retroactively. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, in light of the answer given by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture to my colleague, the Member for Roblin-Russell, indicating to this House and the peo­ ple of Manitoba that I had made a statement that I wasn't in favour of a Beef Support Program, could he tell me when he fired the Committee which I estab­ lished to recommend to the government the type and form of assistance that the beef industry in this prov­ ince was needing? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I didn't fire the Committee. 174 MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, could the Minister then provide this House and the people of Manitoba with a copy of the report from that Committee and the recommendations which they have put forward to put in place a program for the beef industry in the province? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I have met with members of the MCPA, members of the livestock industry in various areas of the province. Those members that were on the Committee were members of the MCPA and they have certainly put their views forward and are being considered along with the other views that have been put to the governmen t. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, to do with the feed shor­ tage, the critical feed shortage in Manitoba, the Minis­ ter referred to reports from his departme nt, has he also received a report that his department, as well as the RCMP, have been a part of a government move to take away different farmer's cattle in the western part of the province because of severe starvation and criti­ cal feed shortage? Does he not think that is a good enough reason to move to introduce a feed transpor­ tation program, where in fact we have seen members of his department and RCMP remove livestock from different farmer's farms?

Does he not think that is adequate enough evidence to move on a feed assis­ tance program? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, obviously the problem of starvation in cattle is not only related to the Province of Manitoba, it is very serious in terms of when cattle are left in a state of malnutrition. Mr. Speaker, that has occurred, not only in this province, but has occurred in other provinces where there are income stabiliza­ tion programs in place. It is very unfortunate and our staff and the veterinarians are acting in this area.

If there are some specific cases where the member has any information that he wants us to act upon, we would be pleased to hear from him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Agriculture: can the Minis­ ter indicate whether the Progressive Conservative pol­ icy on the sale of agricultural Crown lands is still in place? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourble Minister of Agriculture. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I guess the Member for Emerson should be aware that policy falls under the Minister of Natural Resources. MR.

DRIEDGER: I'd like to apply the question to the Minister of Natural Resources then, please. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the whole question of the sale of Crown lands is under review.

MR. DRIEDGER: Could the Minister indicate when this policy was terminated? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker. upon this government coming into office it was noted that there had been a very large increase in the sale of Crown lands and that policy has been stopped. MR. DRIEDGER: To the same Minister: Could the Minister indicate what has happened to the applica­ tions that were in progress or were in the department at the time when this present government came into power and stopped the sale? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, as I've indicated there were many applications.

In fact, we noted that there were 21 quarters sold to one individual. Those applications have been held. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the Minis­ ter of Highways and Transportation, I keep getting him mixed up with the Minister of Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, I would like to know if the Minister of Highways and Transportation can confirm that Mr. Bill Janssen, former Deputy Minister of Agriculture up until 19 77, is in the employ of the Department of Highways and Transportation? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac Du Bonnet): No, Mr. Speaker, the person in question is not employed by the department, however, there is a consulting agreement being arranged for that particular individ­ ual for a period of time. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for that information. I take it from that, that Mr. Janssen is hired under a consulting contract and I would like the Minister of Highways to make the terms of reference of that consulting contract available if he would please. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I am prepared to provide the information that is provided for that kind of a question. What is traditional in this House will be made available. MR. ORCHARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he can confirm that Mr. Roy Atkinson of Saskatchewan, former National Pres­ ident of the NFU and advisor to the Saskatchewan New Democratic Government is similarly employed in the Department of Agriculture under a consulting contract? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Ministe r of Agriculture. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the services of Roy Atkin­ son would certainly be welcome to this government in terms of fighting the position of the Federal Liberals in terms of the Crow rate, but unfortunately, Mr. Speaker. 175 we have not been able to gain the services of Mr. Atkinson. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health. Can he tell the House whether adult cardiac surgery is being performed at the Health Sciences Centre? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: .. . it still is. MR.

SHERMAN: Could the Minister tell the House. Mr. Speaker, under whose authority it is being performed? MR. DESJARDINS: It is performed under the author­ ity of the Minister of Health. This is a temporary mea­ sure. There is a committee studying the situation. making recommendations to us and there is no extra money that has been allocated for that service. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister confirm that the Health Sciences Centre budget for 1981-82, which is going to be somewhere between $1 million and $3 million dollars over, is going to have to accommodate and absorb approximately $300,000 to pay for the adult cardiac surgery that's been con­ ducted there since December? MR. DESJARDINS: Yes. that's my understanding, Mr. Speaker. MR. SHERMAN: Could you tell the House how the Health Sciences Centre is going to pay for it. It's not in the budget. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker.

I haven't been informed of any deficit and I imagine they'll pay for it as they did their deficit of the four previous years. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that adult cardiac surgery has not been performed at the Health Sciences Centre for the past. I believe it is, sixteen years and in view of the fact that there is an internationally famous open heart unit at St.

Boniface Hospital, can the Minister advise how it is that the Health Sciences Centre without reference to him, without reference to the previous Minister, without approval by the Manitoba Health Services Commis­ sion, without approval in this House of its budget, is now embarked on a high cost, high technology duplicative program in the field of cardiac surgery? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the member is abso­ lutely right. The Health Sciences Centre recruited on their own without the authority of the former Minister, without the authority of this Minister or the Manitoba Health Services Commission.

Everything was in place and they announced they were on their own going to start running this surgery. They were notified that they shouldn't under any circumstances until a meet­ ing had been held.

8 March, 1982 Meetings were held with the St. Boniface Hospital, with the Health Sciences Centre, with the University. Another meeting was held with all the groups together. It was decided there were two problems. There was long range planning and immediate concern because the waiting list was getting there will always be a waiting list, there should always be a waiting list but this list was getting to be a little too large, too big. It was felt that the solution for the immediate problem had to be resolved and also the question of long-range planning.

An agreement was accepted, a condition was accepted by the three parties, the University, the St. Boniface Hospital, the Health Science Centre, to form a committee. They participated in the committee at my request. The committee will have a recommenda­ tion fairly soon.

In the meantime, to try to catch up with the waiting list that was getting to be quite dan­ gerous and we were having to send people out of province for these costly and costlier operations out of the province, they were allowed to keep on with definitely no commitment for the future, and that was understood by everybody including the Health Scien­ ces Centre, who accepted these conditions before they could start. MR. SHERMAN: Well, I thank the Honourable Minis­ ter for that information, Mr. Speaker.

Can he advise the House what effect and impact this is having on the morale of the internationally famous open heart surgery unit under Dr. Morley Cohen at the St. Boni­ face General Hospital? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, as I stated that meetings were held with the St. Boniface Hospital, who accepted this recommendation to try to solve the immediate problem, with the understanding that the longer range policy would be established fairly soon, with the understanding, as I said before, that no addi­ tional funding would be forwarded to the Health Sciences Centre.

They assured me and I could and I will table the docume nts, the exchange of letters - in fact, I think I should table all the exchanges that have been going on in this matter and there's definitely no commitment at this time. If the member who is not in a position to give his viewpoint but only ask questions, if he's stating, like I believe he is, that we have to be careful between the two teaching hospitals that there is an unhealthy kind of a competition up to a certain point, personally I agree with the Minister.

This will be watched very carefully and I could promise that this will not be allowed, but we have a problem at this time. The main responsibility is the welfare of the people of Manitoba and if we allow only St. Boniface to continue with this, which is a distinct possibility, we'll have to improve the situation out there to make sure that they could step up a bit the number of operations that will be per­ formed. That has to be done and this is what we're looking at at this time. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, again I thank the Minister for his information and I acknowledge that there is a problem, but I would like to ask the Minister whether it is the intention of this government to change a policy which has been observed through 176 two previous governments, going back into the late 1960's in this province, which says essentially that a province of one million people shall have a cancer center which shall be at the Health Sciences Centre and shall have an open heart surgery center which shall be at the St.

Boniface General Hospital and that if increased capacity and capability is needed, it is the unit at St. Boniface that should be expanded? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I don't think it would be proper at this time to indicate what my preference would be in view of the fact that a committee has been set up to study the situation. There is no doubt that under ordinary circumstances we wouldn't have pro­ ceeded as we did, but the team, as my honourable friend knows, was recruited -I am certainly not blam­ ing him, I make that clear - the people were here, we had a problem.

My concern was that did not start a precedent; that was a temporary measure and as I say, if we decide there is no doubt that we will have to beef up, we can't go on with only what is going on in St. Boniface at this time. So a decision will be made, and I repeat that we have the same concern. I am sure that we don't duplicate anything, everything here. I could mention that, these sentiments have already been passed on to the different hospitals and to the Univer­ sity who have agreed to assist us in this case, and we will look at that very very seriously. Mr.

Speaker, if I may, the concern is that under the present system, there is only certain operating rooms and there is competition within the hospital, if I can call it competition, between the different disciplines. You just can't have cardiac surgery, there are other things that are needed, and this is a problem that we will have to look at, at this time. We, as I say, will not allow the two hospitals to compete in this area, as was mentioned with a popula­ tion of approximately a million people we certainly don't intend to duplicate things, and we will certainly look at the costs. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I accept that position from the Minister. I would like to ask for his assurance to this House that essentially it will be, and this course will be pursued, if at all possible by the government. Essentially it is far more sensible and efficient and valuable to the public, because the support services, the surgeons, the supporting teams are already in place at St. Boniface, to expand the unit at St. Boni­ face then to go 12 blocks down the street and put a whole new unit in at the Health Sciences Centre. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, everything else being equal, I have no problem with this.

I certainly agree and go a little further than has been stated this after­ noon, and I am sure my friend will agree with me that we probably have the best renowned and the most successful team in all of North America probably in St. Boniface Hospital with Dr. Cohen and his team and there is no doubt that we won't do anything to try and reduce the usefulness of this team in St. Boniface.

We are looking at the situation, as I said, and I can only repeat that we will not allow duplication and we will look at the cost and try to keep the high quality that we have at this time, I can make that commitment to my honourable friend.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have one question for the Minister of Community Services. with respect to the announced review of the placement of children in the United States for adoption purposes. Granted that it would be more appropriate for these children to remain in a home in Manitoba, Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister acknowledge that many of these children have been advertised for some time in Manitoba and in Canada, that the vast majority of them are the victims of sexual, mental or physical, or some form of social cruelty and that the waiting list, which is referred to quite often, is a waiting list primarily for white, new­ born healthy children, would he confirm that in his review he will keep as his primary and paramount concern the interest and the welfare of the children, Mr.

Speaker, and if it is necessary for them to placed outside of Manitoba to find a home with loving parents then will that be allowed in his review of that particular policy? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com­ munity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree with the honourable member when he says the interests of the child is paramount.

Certainly that must be the first objective, the welfare of the child or the children involved, and it is also true that the children who have been placed in homes outside of Manitoba, outside of Canada, usually those who have been very difficult to place, if not impossi­ ble, within this province, for whatever reason after new advertising and efforts made by the Children Aid's Society and so on. Mr. Speaker, I would hope that within the next cou­ ple of days I will be in a position to make a statement on this matter outlining where we would go from here. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, the time for question period has expired. COMMONWEALTH DAY ANNOUNCEMENT MR. SPEAKER: Before we move on to Orders of the Day, I wonder if I might make a brief announcement to the assembled members. As members probably know today, March 8th, is Commonwealth Day, and I have received a letter from CPA headquarters with a Commonwealth Day mes­ sage with the request that it be read to the House. The message is as follows: "M arch 8th will be observed as Commonwealth Day in all countries which are members of this unique family of nations. This is the eighth consecutive year marking its observance.

I am pleased to continue the custom started by previous chairmen of the Executive Committee of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and send a Commonwealth Day message to all branches of the Association. "During the past year, Belize and Antigua Barbuda achieved their Independence. The CPA congratulates both countries and looks forward to their continuing interest in the Association. 177 The CPA, like the Commonwealth itself, has under­ gone a process of evolution.

Since its founding in 1911 as the Empire Parliamentary Association, it has grown to meet the changing and varied needs of its members on every continent. "The CPA is today an association of Common­ wealth parliamentarians, who irrespective of race, religion or culture are united by a community of inter­ est, respect for the rule of law and individual rights and customs and by pursuit of the positive ideals of parliamentary democracy. "The community of interest which typifies our Association is based on diversity. In that respect it reflects the Commonwealth itself.

Parliamentary democracy is represented in the CPA and in the Commonwealth by institutions with centuries of tradi­ tion. Equally the CPA embraces parliamentary assemblers which have evolved new and different representational forms to better reflect the dynamic needs of their particular societies. "The CPA also rests on a foundation of equality. Branches representing National Parliaments and those representing State, Provincial or Territorial Legisla­ tures participate on an equal footing, so do old branches and new, large ones and small. "The co-operation within the Commonwealth takes many and varied forms.

Education, health, law, tech­ nical assistance and scientific research to name a few. The particular and essential contribution of the CPA rests on its pursuit of the positive ideas of parliamen­ tary democracy.

It is in its dedication to this pursuit and the concomitant recognition of the principles of accountability, free election, protection of the rights of individuals and minorities, and respect for the rule of law that the Commonwealth Parliamentary Associ­ ation will continue to make its unique contribution to its 10,000 members, to its 127 branches and to the Commonwealth itself." The message is signed by "Gerald R. Ottenheimer, Chairman of the Executive Committee." ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Hon­ ourable Member for The Pas and the proposed amendment thereto by the Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Member for Gimli. MR. JOHN M. BUCKLASCHUK (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, Honourable Ministers and members of the House, I would like to begin this, my first speech in the House, by congratulating you, Mr. Speaker, on your appointment and election to the highest office in this Assembly.

Having had the pleasure of knowing you and working with you for many years, I feel confident that because of your respect for the Legislature and its functions, and because of your sense of fairness, that these attributes will stand you in good stead in carry­ ing out the responsibilities of your office in a compe­ tent and fair manner. I would also like to commend the Mover of the Throne Speech, the Honourable Member for The Pas; and the Seconder, the Honourable Member for Bur­ rows, for the fine way in which they carried out their

tasks. They, like myself, are new members to this House, and I empathize with them in their apprehen­ sion of making their first speech; and like them, I'm hoping to learn, hoping to contribute to the delibera­ tions of this Assembly as best one can, and hopefully to assist in the resolution of some of the problems facing our province today and in the years to come. I would also like to take this opportunity to congrat­ ulate all the new members on both sides of this House on their election, fully sharing their anxieties, their awe, and at times, their puzzlement at the conduct of this House.

However, in time, we shall learn and hope­ fully become productive members to the process of providing good government for Manitoba. And, of course, congratulations are in order to all returning members on their re-election.

I feel that a special congratulations ought to be directed to the First Minister, a person who has proven his worthiness of the position he holds by virtue of the sincere effort he has made over the years in gaining his understanding of the province and his people, and through his contributions to the province both as a Leader of the Opposition and as a Minister in previous NOP administrations; through these processes he has gained the respect he so richly deserves.

I would like at this time to thank all those who worked so hard on my behalf in the campaign to pro­ vide me with the opportunity to serve on their behalf. I consider it a great honour to be in their service as the MLA for Gimli, and trust that I will be able to live up to their expectations. I would be remiss, Mr. Speaker, if I did not pay tribute to my predecessor, the former MLA for Gimli, Mr. Keith Cosens, who has served the province, I am certain, to the best of his abilities, as the Minister of Education. I am certain that all members of this House would join me in extending to Mr.

Cosens best wishes in his new position as the Chief Executive Officer at Northern Goose Processors Limited. I would also be remiss if I did not extend, on behalf of Gimli constituents east of the Red River, thanks to the Minister of Transportation and Government Ser­ vices, who served his constituents so well for the past sixteen years in that part of the former constituency of Lac du Bonnet that is now part of Gimli. Mr. Speaker, I feel particularly pleased in respond­ ing to the Speech from the Throne because of the tone that has been expressed in that document.

I sense hope and optimism and a sincere concern about the well-being of northern and rural Manitoba. I welcome, as I'm certain do many other Manitobans, the announcement of policies and programs that will impact in a very positive way on the quality of life in those areas. In view of the existent economic circumstances, I know that the First Minister's task will not be easy, but I have every confidence that his efforts, along with those efforts of his members of his Executive Council and Caucus, will result in achievements that will be a credit to him and his government for years to come. I would now, Mr.

Speaker, like to deal with Gimli Constituency, with some of our concerns, with some of our hopes. Gimli Constituency is one of the more challenging areas in our province. Within its boundar­ ies are to be found a wide diversity of racial and cul­ tural backgrounds and a wide variation of geographi- 178 cal features. While on the one hand, it is a location of some of Manitoba's finest grain lands, fishing grounds and resort areas, it also contains some of the poorest farming areas to be found in the province. While the name of the constituency is not new, its boundaries are.

Basically, Gimli Constituency is shaped like a horseshoe, stretching around the bottom half of Lake Winnipeg from Boundary Road just north of Arnes, going south and skirting the Town of Selkirk, crossing the Red River, taking in all of the arm of St Clements, stretching from East St. Paul in the south to Grand Marais and Grand Beach Provincial Park on the north. The western boundary corresponds to a line which is about roughly parallel to No. 7 Highway three miles west of it, stretching to Balmoral and then cutting across country to the northern town limits of Selkirk.

Yet despite this large area covering in excess of a square thousand miles, there exists within the consti­ tuency only one town, and that town being Gimli. Gimli, I should mention, celebrated its IOOth anniver­ sary last year at becoming a part of Manitoba. There also exists within the constituency a number of villages -Winnipeg Beach, Teulon, Dunnottar and East Selkirk, as well as a handful! of hamlets, includ­ ing Arnes, Fraserwood, Komarno, Balmoral, Clande­ boye, Petersfield, Libau, Scanterbury and Grand Mara is.

I should indicate that the boundaries for Gimli Constituency pass through the middle of Balmoral and the other half is shared by the Honourable Member for Lakeside. As previously stated, there is a wide diversity in the racial and cultural backgrounds within the consti­ tuency from descendants of our Native people, and these are mainly to be found at the Brokenhead Reserve at Scanterbury along St. Peter's Road north of Selkirk; descendants of those that formed the Republic of New Iceland in the Gimli area in 1875; descendants of those who came from Western and Eastern Europe in the late 1880's and 1890's.

Because of its diversity, Gimli Constituency can be considered a miniature of the whole province, and it well deserves its designation in election campaigns as a bellwether constituency. We have people virtually in every walk of life from farmers, fishermen, trappers, steelworkers to computer experts, business execu­ tives, and airline pilots. Yet, despite our diversity and the proximity to Manitoba's largest urban center, we have been able to maintain a rural lifestyle. We, in fact, have the best of two worlds. This lifestyle is something cherished very dearly by most of our residents.

We have a more relaxed pace of life. We have clean air and clean water, and we have been able to retain many traditional values. Yet, despite this rural appearance that exists within the constituency, many industries and enterprises that are rather unique and contribute significantly to the economic well-being of the area and of the province. Gimli is the home of Seagram's distillery. It's a plant servicing the needs of virtually all of Western Canada, providing exports to the United States and to Eastern Canada.

Gimli's Industrial Park is the home of the CN Training School which brings to it railway employees from Newfoundland to British Columbia. National Research Council has offices and staff at the Indus­ trial Park. Lake Winnipeg Boat Works Triple E are located at the Park as is Ontario Central Airways,

Monday, 8 March, 1982 servicing Northern Ontario and the far north of Canada. Major industries at Teulon are Promo-Wear and Northern Goose Processors Limited, the largest plant of its type in the world and providing valuable exports to Europe. Gimli constituency is endowed with a rich variety of natural resources. It has the potential of providing greater and more varied employment opportunities than now exists in many other regions of the province.

It is my hope that through the policies and programs of this government, that we shall develop many of our underdeveloped resources while at the same time ensuring that we prevent any damage to our environ­ ment. It's this point, Mr. Speaker, that I must com­ mend this government for its intention to protect the qualities of the waters of Lake Winnipeg, one of the largest fresh-water lakes in the world. At the same time, we will be ensuring the viability of Manitoba's fishing industry, which employs more than 1,500 fishermen and the value of the product approaching $20 million annually.

Rather than simply sending letters expressing con­ cerns about further work on the building of the Garri­ son Dam Project and making announcements, that we can be rest assured that no construction potentially damaging to Manitoba is to take place, as was done by the previous administration, this government will be taking steps in concert with the efforts of the Govern­ ment of Canada to establish a presence in Washing­ ton, thus, enabling our province to maintain a watch­ ful eye on the activities of Senate and Congress and on a first-hand basis to express to American politi­ cians our concerns and fears.

In addition, I am pleased that our government will be taking steps to have Manitobans become better informed; that this is an issue that should be a con­ cern, not only for those in the fishing industry, but for all Manitobans whether they live in Northern Manit­ oba, in Souris, in Morris, in Portage, or Winnipeg. We'll be calling on the assistance of groups such as the Action Committee Against Garrison, Fishermen's Associations and other interest groups to do whatever we can to win our fight. Our time is running out and there will not be a second chance.

I am pleased, as are Gimli constituents and I daresay most Manitobans, that this government is moving decisively and in a forthright manner on this issue. Agriculture, too, is of major economic importance in the Interlake and the Speech from the Throne is to be applauded for indicating the intention of this government to deal with the problems facing the beef industry. I am only too aware of the frustrations expe­ rienced by the Minister of Agriculture and the work that has gone into the development of a program that will have immediate and long-range benefits to the industry in this province.

I know that the farmers in Gimli constituency, in Interlake and throughout the province appreciate the difficulties experienced in coming to grips with this problem and welcome the announcement in the Speech. To give most farmers credit, they have been patient, knowing full well that help would be forthcoming soon, not after 40 per cent of the producers are forced out of business as hap­ pened in the hog industry under the previous administration.

Again, on behalf of Gimli constituents, I must 179 express pleasure at this government's intention of dealing with the question of the Crow rate and poten­ tial changes in statutory grain rates. In view of the present depressed state in the agricultural economy, the abolition of the Crow rate might well be the last nail in the coffin for many small rural communities.

Credit must be given to this government for facing the issue, for its intention of presenting all available information on the impact of any changes, for its intention of soliciting involvement and participation in discussion of this critical issue, so that when deci­ sions are to be made, that they are made and based on fact and that the potential impact is fully understood. Manitobans are pleased to hear of the intention of providing additional funds to regional development corporations.

It is through these organizations that needs are assessed, ideas are explored and projects developed; it is through the RDC's in a large part, that we will see the development of a more stable and diversified rural economy. I know that many Manitobans have been awaiting details of the Main Street Manitoba Program a campaign pledge that rural members opposite had so much fun with in the last campaign, ridiculing the concept, but I wish to caution the members opposite that it might not be too wise to be too critical. Rural residents understand the value of sprucing up the appearance of their towns and villages.

They take pride in their communities and they understand the economic spin-off to the construction workers and contractors that this program will bring. I know that I've had many enquiries about the details of this pro­ gram. I know that this program will be successful in achieving its goals and will go a long way to uplifting the spirits of those who have had too little to feel good about these past few years. At this point, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to briefly deal with an issue that probably impacts more in my consti­ tuency than on any other, possibly with the exception of Lakeside, and that is with respect to the proposal locating an aluminum smelter at Bal moral. It's regret­ table that the Member for Lakeside isn't here; I wanted to address a few remarks to him. I noted with interest and, admittedly, with some irritation remarks made by the honourable member in his reply to the Speech from the Throne attributing to me a position that is totally and completely without foundation.

I'd like to just take a moment and quote from the March 2nd Hansard, if I may, "I think the Honourable Member for Gimli knows of what I speak when he had to request protection to leave a hall because of an anti-Alcan approach that he took without being apprised of the facts." Mr. Speaker, I would like it to be on record that I have never required protection for any position that I have taken with respect to Alcan or any other matter. For the benefit of the Member for Lakeside, to set his mind at ease, may I take this opportunity to state my position.

My position is the same as I held prior to the election which may be confirmed from a May, 1981, CBC Radio Provincial Affairs broadcast that I took during the election campaign, the same position that I hold today and a position shared I daresay by the vast majority of Manitobans. That is my concern about and opposition to Alcan's ownership of part of Manitoba Hydro.

Monday, 8 March, 1982 That position, Mr. Speaker, was arrived at by listen­ ing to the majority of constituents in Gimli and by listening to many many others throughout the prov­ ince with whom I had contact. The campaign was fought on that position and the member knows that, and I really don't understand why such a position would require protection. I believe we live in a free country. For the benefit of the Member for Lakeside, in the event that his reliable sources of information didn't pass this on to him, there is considerable inter­ est in the possibility of Alcan locating in Manitoba.

There certainly is considerable support for its location at Bal moral and there is also considerable apprehen­ sion about the potential environmental damage. It 's hardly a secret that the Alcan que stion was probably the major issue in the western part of the consti­ tuency. It 's certainly no secret that we had virtually every Reeve, Coun cillor and Mayor campaigning on behalf of Alcan, or should I have said on behalf of the Conservative candidate, or was there really a differ­ ence? It doesn't matter, their positions were the same and despite this army of high -powered canvassers, we won.

Because there was concern there and there still is concern, not from what I su ppose Mark Andrews would call environmental radicals, but there is con­ cern from good solid citizens, from farmers, from the elderly, from professionals who have moved into the In terlake because of its clean environment, from fishermen from Gimli, from life-long residents of the area and you would hardly call these persons who are concerned about the environmen t, environmental radicals.

Surely they deserve to be heard and sur ely their opinions ought to be considered, but to make a statement that I had taken a position that required protection, my comments to that would be, what non­ sensical ru bbish, what utter drivel. Now, this concern about the possible location of Alcan and the environmental concerns leads me to another underdeveloped potential of Gimli consti­ tuency and that is touri sm.

No doubt, as the price of gasoline and related travel costs increase, more and more Manitobans will be looking to Manitoba and, in particular, the In terlake as a possible choice for their holiday destination; the distance is right. It remains for us to help in the development of these various possibili ties. The beautiful beaches along Lake Winnipeg are unequal in Manitoba. More and more Manitobans are beginning to appreciate their beauty and consequently numerous sub divisions and cottages are being built, an indication that tourism has the potential of becom­ ing one of the largest indust ries in the region.

It is my hope that this government will be able to provide even greater services and assistance to organizations such as Tourism Manitoba Regional Associations to help achieve their goals. I note that in the Speech from the Throne reference was made to the Provincial Subsidiary Agreement for tourist development and to a capital assistance pro­ gram. I, as many Manitobans, await details of the agre ement and I would hope that this program can be utilized in the development of this very important industry in Gimli constituency. Mr. Speaker, I am looking forward to this Session and to the next four years.

I know that the Speech from 180 the Throne reflects many of the pledges that were made during the past campaign, pledges that were acceptable to enough Manitobans to bring into this government the highest num ber of NOP members in the history of this province. Notwithstanding that the previous government was able to spend virtu ally hun dreds of thousa nds of dollars in highly political advertising thr oug h its Enterprise Manitoba, indus­ trial benefits advertisin g, and so on, thro ugh bom­ bardment of newspaper, radio and TV ads, Manitoba has decided a change was in order, a change for the better.

I know this government will deliver on its pledges and as indicated earlier, I' m particularly pleased with special, and I might add, overdue emphasis on Northern and rural Manitoba. Despite taunts from the Opposition that ours is only a tempor­ ary stewardship and if the Opposition looks forward to being the government four years down the road, I would wager that the next election will break histori­ cal precedent again, not in defeating a one-term government as happened three months ago, but in electing more New Democrat MLAs than we have now. Thank you . MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Assiniboia. MR.

RURIK (Ric) NORDMAN (A ssinibola): Mr. Speaker, the first words to you, of course, is to offer my congratu lations on your appointment to the most prestigious position of this House. I personally will attempt to co-operate with you in every respect, to comply with the rules of the House. Mr. Speaker, I would furth er like to publicly con­ gratulate all members who have won re-election as well as those who have been elected for the first time.

You have earned the sup port of the people of your constituency as a result of your hard work and because of your general concern for and your com­ mitment to the development of your province in its quality of life. Mr. Speaker, I've been sincerely impressed with the eloquence of the new members of the House, parti cu­ larly the Mover and the Seconder of the Throne Speech. Mr. Speaker, we are embarking on a common enterprise as members of the Legislature. We are a part of a heritage of parliamentary government and democracy which, unfortunately, is becoming a rather scarce commodity in many parts of the world.

We must sur ely have as our common objective the crea­ tion of a government primarily for people, where the environment and the natural attributes of our sur­ roundings are respected. We must have a society where justice prevails for everyone, where we have decent housing and schooling as well as jobs and recreational opportunities available for all. Mr. Speaker, in the democratic society in which we live, the system allows us the freedom to differ. We have varying opinions to strive for our causes under the rule of law but, Mr.

Speaker, we must provide for our s and to the best of our ability an economic climate people a system of serviceth rough which the citizens of Manitoba can live in safety in their neighbour­ hoods, have access to jobs and hope for fut ure. Mr. Speaker, on occasion we will differ in the priorities

Monday, 8 March, 1982 and programs needed to achieve these ends, but I hope we will not be divided in the objectives them­ selves. I would like to give a little history of my const i­ tuency, Mr. Speaker. The area known as Assiniboia came into existence as a part of the thousands of square miles deeded to Lord Selkirk in the early 18 00's. The area included the Red River Valley, the Assiniboine Basin; half of the area was south of the 49th Parallel and today forms parts of the States of Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota.

The northern half now forms part of the Provinces of Sas­ katchewan, Ontar io and Manitoba as far north as Swan River. Mr. Speaker, the Municipality of Assini­ boia was created in 18 80. The new Municipality embraced the parishes of Head ingley, St. Charles, St. James, St. Boniface west, from St. Franc is Xavier eastward to Sherbrook St. and south of the Ass ini­ boine River to the Red River, covering an area of 12 4 square miles. The provincial consti tuency of Ass ini­ boia was formed in 18 79 by the amalgamation of Headingley and St. Charles constituencies.

The first MLA for Assiniboia was a Liberal Conser­ vative named Alexander Murray. He defeated John Taylor by a vote of 18 7 to 10 6; a total of 293 votes were cast. Mr. Murray represented the constituency until at least 1887; in the year 1883 he was the Speaker of the House; in 1887 he was a member of a Committee on Private Bills; as well as a member of the Library Com­ mittee. The Premier from 1878-1887 was the Honour­ able John Norquay. Mr. Speaker, in the ensu ing 103 years, there have been many changes, although I believe the only boundary that remains is the western boundary, which is St. Frances Xavier.

The southern boundary is the Ass iniboin e River until you reach the old Parish of St. Charles, and then Portage Avenue becomes the dividing line between the new Kirkfield Park Consti­ tuency and Ass inibo ia. The northern boundary is the Municipality of Rosser, the eastern boundary is rather a mishmash, in places it's Sturgeon Road and then in other places it's School Road, but between the Perimeter Highway and the western boundary lie thousands of acres of rich farmland, the start of what is now known as the White Horse Plains, as well as the Village of Head ingley.

Two complexes known for their own spec ific attributes, also are located in the area namely, Manitoba's greatest tourist attraction, Assi­ niboine Downs Race Track, and a little further west is the Provincial Correctional Institute, better known as Headingley Jail. The area east of the Perimiter con­ sists of the residential commu nit ies of St. Charles, Crestview, and Old Kirkfield Park. Mr. Speaker, I'm honored to be standing here represe nting the Constituency of Assiniboia. I'll make every effort to represent my constituency as well as those who represented it before me.

The only ones that I have had personal aquaintance with are Mrs. Norma Price, the former Minis ter of Cultural Affairs, in the previous government, and Mr. Steve Patrick, who represented the constituency from 1969-1977, as well as Mr. George Johnson who represented it before Mr. Patrick. Mr. Speaker, there are a few concerns the constitu­ ents of Ass iniboia have, and I will be asking the Hon­ ourable Mini ster of Highways to come to an early 181 decision on the upgrading of the Trans Canada High­ way, west of the Perimeter, extending beyond the Village of Headingley.

As well, I will be asking the same Min ister for an early decision with respect to the proposed closing of Augier Avenue, at the Perimete r, a potentially critical situation in the offing. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to briefly address the Throne Speech. The Honourable Leader of the Oppos ition, as well as many other in Oppos ition have voiced their concerns with rega rd to the additional spending issue, the central ization in additional government controls. I would also voice my concern, but the issue that concerns me the most is the attitude that the government is taking towards the mega projects.

What concerns me, Mr. Speaker, is the thought of possibly losing the benefits that these projects would generate, between 3,000 & 4,000 jobs, job opportun i­ ties for the graduat es of our univ ers ities and our col­ leges, utilizing technical skills that our young people have acquir ed. High school students in Assiniboia, in particular, have shown concern over where they will have to go for employment , and it is quite feasible that Alcan Smelter would be just down the road for many of my const ituents. So, Mr.

Speaker, I urge the members opposite to continue the efforts already put into these projects, and prove that there can be profit from enterpr ise without taking anything from others, and that such enterprise adds to the ease of living for everyone. Speaking of profit, I'd like to read an

article pub­ lished by the New York State Economical Council, enti tled "What is Profit." "A school boy disturbed by the current fashion of speaking disparagingly of the profit system, which has formed the basis of our way of life, wrote to his grandfather asking him to explain just how there can be a profit which is not taken from the work of some­ one else. "The grandfather, Fred I. Kent, LL.D, was President of the Council of New York University and a former Director of the Federal Reserve Board. Dr.

Kent rep­ lied to his grandson's query as follows: "My Dear Grandson, I will answer your question as simply as I can. Profit is the result of enterprise which buil ds for others as well as for the enterpriser. "Let us consider the operation of this fact in a primi­ tive commun ity, say of 100 persons, who obtain only the mere necess ities of living by working hard all day long. Our primitive community dwelling at the foot of a mountain must have water. There is no water except at a spring near the top of the mountain. Therefore, every day all of the hundred persons climb to the top of the mountain.

It takes them an hour to go up and back. They do this all day long until at last one of them noti ces that the water from the spring runs down the inside of the mountain in the same direction that he goes when he comes down. He conceiv es the idea of digg ing a trough in the mountainsi de, all the way down to the place where he has his habitati on. He goes to work to build a trough, the other 99 people are not even curious about what he is doing.

Then one day this IOOth man turns a small part of the water from the spring into his trough, and it runs down the mountain into a basin, that he has fashi oned at the bottom, whereupon he says to the 99 others, who each spend an hour a day fetching their water, that it they will give

8 March, 1982 him a daily production of ten minutes of their time, he will give them water from his basin. He will then receive 990 minutes of the time of the other men each day. This arrangement will make it unnecessary for him to work 16 hours a day in order to provide for his necessities. "He is making a tremendous profit, but his enter­ prise has given each of the 99 other people 50 addi­ tional minutes each day. The enterpriser, now having 16 hours a day at his disposal, and being naturally curious, spends part of his time watching the water run down the mountain.

He sees that is pushes along stones and pieces of wood, so he develops a water wheel. Then he notices that it has power, and finally after many hours of contemplation and work he makes the water wheel run a mill to grind his corn. The IOOth man then realized that he has sufficient power to grind corn for the other 99. "H e says to them, I will allow you to grind your corn in my mill if you will give me one-tenth of the time you save. They agree, and so the enterpriser now makes an additional profit.

He used the time paid him by the 99 others to build a better house for himself to increase his conveniences of living, through new benches, openings in his house for light and better protection from the cold. "So it goes on as the IOOth man finds new ways to save the 99 the total expenditure of their time, one­ tenth of which he asks of them in payment for his enterprising. The IOOth man's time finally becomes all his own to use as he sees fit. He does not have to work unless he chooses to. His food and shelter and clo­ thing are provided by others.

His mind, however, is ever working, and the other 99 are having more and more time to themselves because of his thinking and planning. "For instance, he notices that one of the 99 makes better shoes than the others. He arranges for this man to spend all his time making shoes because he can be fed, clothed, and sheltered from profits. The other 98 do not now have to make their own shoes. They are charged one-tenth of the time they save and the 99th man is still able to work shorter hours because some of the time that is paid by each of the 98 is allowed to him by the 100.

As the days pass, another individual is seen to be, by the 10 0th man to be making better clothes than any, and so the story goes. All the way through, and as these developments continue, each member of the community will be given something from his own accomplishments, become more and more dependent upon the efforts of the others and unless envy, jealousy and unfair laws intervene to restrict honest enterprisers who benefited all, pro­ gress promised to be, cut the cost of.

Need we say more to prove that there can be profit from enterprise without taking anything from others and such enter­ prise adds to the ease of living for everyone. These principles are as active in the modern nation as in our imaginary community. Laws that kill incentive and cripple the honest enterpriser hold back progress. True profit is not something to be feared because it works to the benefit of everyone concerned. We must endeavour to build instead of tearing down what oth­ ers have built. We must be fair to the other man or the world cannot be fair to us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 182 MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. GERARD LECUYER (Radisson): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First, I want to say that I am very grateful for this opportunity to address the members and my constitu­ ents from the floor of this House. It is both an honour and a very humbling experience, especially when I consider the many evil men and women who have preceded me. As many before me have done, I wish to begin by first congratulating you personally for your election as Speaker.

I know that during your previous years of service to the province, you have chaired many com­ mittees and have gained the respect of all your col­ leagues in the House. I know you will do your job with fairness and dedication in the same manner that you have always served your constituents. I look forward for your experienced guidance and will abide by your decisions. My congratulations also go to the Honourable Member for Flin Flon upon his being named Deputy Speaker.

I also want to congratulate the Members for The Pas and Burrows for their enlightening and inspiring words as they respectively moved and seconded the Throne Speech. Mr. Speaker, I also wish to extend my heartfelt wishes of success to our Premier. I know that he has accepted to shoulder a heavy burden, but I also know that he is a hard worker and not one to shirk his responsibilities. Manitoba is fortunate to again have a leader who is willing to listen to people and to respond to their needs in a most humane way, notwithstanding the trying times we live in and the difficulties that lie ahead.

Difficulties which are, at least to a certain extent, part of the inheritance left to us as a result of the inaction and the mismanagement of the previous administration. Mr. Speaker, I wish to extend my best wishes to all the members on both sides of this House. It is my sincere desire that our foremost concern should always be for the people of this province who have entrusted us with the responsibility to represent their best interests. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I take this opportunity to extend my best wishes to the former members who represented Radisson; Mr.

Harry Shafransky, who represented Radisson between 1969 and 1977, and Mr. Russ Paulley who served this community and the people of Manitoba for over 35 years - 25 of them in this House. I wish him well and many more years of good health during his retirement. I also thank the Member for Niakwa for recognizing that Radisson belongs to the NOP poll. I also wish him well. Mr. Speaker, the constituency of Radisson came into being only in 1957 - if my information is correct - and like many other constituencies, its boundaries have changed considerably.

It is, I believe, the largest urban constituency and differs from all others in that it includes two distinct communities: Windsor Park, itself a suburb of St. Boniface; and a good portion of Transcona, including the two new developments of Lakeside Meadows and Mission by a broad area of

Monday, 8 March, 1982 largely Gardens. What makes Radisson unique among urban constituencies is that it is dividedunderdeve­ loped industrial land, including the CN Symin gton Yards. I will come back to this feature of the consti­ tuency later on in my speech. Mr. Speaker, I know the people of the Radisson portion of Transcona were very unhappy to see that their community was divided as a result of the latest boundary changes. They were sad to discover that they would no longer be represented by the Honour­ able Member for Transcona.

This, for two reasons:- first, they were losing, and this they fully recognized, an experienced and very able representative; and secondly, because they saw the change as causing a break in their close-knit ties with the rest of the Trans­ cona family. I can sympathize with their feelings, but I take this opportunity to reassure them that I will do all in my power, sparing no effort, to represent them to the best of my ability and keep them closely informed and involved in this government's actions.

I also promise no less to my constituents of Windsor Park where I live with my family, my wife and my four children. Mr. Speaker, I wish to express my most sin­ cere and heartfelt appreciation to the people of Radis­ son for their tremendous support and their faith in electing me to the Legi slature. Mr. Speaker, honourable members, I ask your indulgence to talk a bit about my background, because I feel that it has a direct bearing on my being here today. Mr. Speaker, I lived my early years and my youth on a farm on the banks of the Red River in the Town of St.

Agathe, represented in this House by the Honourable Member for Morris. I come from a family of fourteen children, nine boys and five girls, where hand-me-downs were a common and necessary prac­ tice, but we were extremely happy and there was never a dull moment. Today, even though the family has grown much larger, the ties remain very close. There are many things I learned from my poor, rural family background. I learned to appreciate that mate­ rial things are seconda ry and that there is great satis­ faction to be derived from sharing and interacting with others.

Even though we had no running water, no flush toilet and no fan cy furniture, we always had sufficient food and my mother could create small mir­ acles on the old wood stove. She is a courageous woman who has worked extremely hard all of her life, and even now, in spite of her seventy-one years of age, she is still very active and always trying to be helpful to someone else. From my parents, I acquired perseverance, the spirit of competitiv eness and many other valuable principles which they cherished.

Today, I can relate, not only with the people of the city where I live, but also with the people of the rural farming community, and with the people in the construction and the manu­ facturing industries, because I toiled with them and I shared their experiences as I worked alongside them while earning my way through college and university.

The experience of these early years served me well as an educator in Mani toba, and during five years of teaching in different parts of Africa; an experience I found to be the highlight of my life, an experience which has heightened my sense of social values and my concern for the inequalities which we too often tend to accept as insurmountable. 183 Mr. Speaker, I firmly believe that the honour I have today of serving my fellow citizens of Manitoba, and particularly of Radisson, is the natural extension of fast decisions, experiences and commitments to be involved at the community level.

Also, there is no doubt that one of the most compelling reasons why I'm here today is due to the inaction and laissez faire attitude of the previous government. I just could not stand by and let social and economic conditions dete­ riorate in Manitoba. I could not allow our hopes and aspirations for a better future to go down the drain. Not only has the Opposition, when in government, reneged in all their promises, but it has also lacked fiscal responsibility, and they have poorly managed the resources of this province.

Everyone is prepared to recog nize that economic conditions throughout Canada and the world are not as good as they used to be. Therefore, I wouldn't for a moment want to impute all of Manitoba's ills to the previous administration. But I do want to point out that it is their laissez faire remedy which caused Manitoba to fall into last place in terms of employment, last in job creation, last in population growth and last in housing starts which declined by 52 percent alone in 1980, and near the bottom in all other areas, all other economic sectors, according to figures provided by Statistics Canada.

During the last election, the people of Manitoba were not led astray with mega promises. They placed their faith in the New Democratic Party because they realized that we believe in the people of Manitoba. We know that the strength of Manitoba's economy depends on the hard work and commitment of the many thousands of farmers, workers, business people and others who provide the great majority of Manito­ ba's jobs and products. We will work with them and provide economic leadership for Manitoba. Like the people of Manitoba, we also think that jobs are better than welfare. Mr.

Speaker, the Throne Speech contains some sixty steps for measures we propose to undertake for the benefit of Manitobans. Yet, in an

article in the Winnipeg Sun dated March 2, 1982, and entitled "No Brave New World," here is the Opposition Leader's reaction to the Throne Speech.

I quote: "The NDP Government's policies were hatched by unimagina­ tive ideologu es who plugged the fever swamps and the muck and the mire just to prove they were good socialists." As a new member in this House, I most definitely fail to see the construct iveness of such criticism, but it does help me to understand why he is sitting on the other side of the House and is likely to stay on that side, because the people of Manitoba are not about to be duped by that kind of rhetoric. Mr.

Speaker, unlike the Op position, we are pre­ pared to protect the family farm, and thus protect the rural lifestyle and the rural values which are so impor­ tant to everyone in Manitoba. We are prepared to provide greater accessibility to both young and old to services in the social, health and educational areas. Mr. Speaker, I want to come back to some of the specific priorities of my constituency. The people of Radisson are mostly workers and small business proprietors. Many of them work in the CN Shops and in the meat packing industry. A large number were very adversely affected by the closing of Swifts and

Monday, 8 March, 1982 Maple Leaf Mills. two of the industries which closed during the last government's tenure in office. Both the railroad and the meat packing industries have been affected by rail line abandonment and will again be affected if there is tampering with the Crow rate. Radisson also has a large number of people who are unemployed or underpaid, people who are struggling to hold on to their home or their apartment in the face of high interest rates and high inflation.

This is a community of good, hard-working people, many of whom who have lived all their working lives in the community and who now look forward to senior citi­ zen housing or nursing care homes. both of which are sorely lacking in the neighbourhood. It is my hope that this government will be able to bring about some measure of relief. Mr. Speaker. Radisson perhaps to an even greater degree than other constituencies. is a microcosm of all of the ethnic groups to be found in Manitoba. These diverse cultures are a primary source of wealth for th is province and a rich heritage.

The measures announced in the Throne Speech with regards to the adoption of a multi-cultural policy and the setting up of a multi­ cultural council as well as making more funds availa­ ble to enable the growth and flourishing of Manitoba's mosaic, give me a great deal of satisfaction. Mr. Speaker. before I switch to my first language. I wish to relate an incident which occurred during my college days. During one Christmas holiday, I was telling an elderly gentleman of my hometown that one of my professors spoke eight languages fluently.

His reaction was: "My God, he sure won't be around for very long." "Why do you say tha t?," I asked. "Well," he said. "We only speak two languages and look at what they did to us throughout the years." Even now. I'm hesitant to speak my mother tongue. this truly beautiful language. because as my honour­ able colleague from St. Boniface once stated, "I 've got the right to spea k. but it seems I don't have the right to be understood ." I say this because I note in Hansard that the words spoken in French by some of my col­ leagues were not translated for all of you to understa nd. M.

Le President, pour bien comprendre les revendi­ cations et les attentes de la collectivite francophone du Manitoba, ii faut connaitre un peu son passe. Permettez-moi done de vous brosser un tableau rapide. Nos ancetres ont ete les premiers pionniers a s'installer ici, et au moment de l'entree du Manitoba dans la Confederation nous etions reconnus a part entiere. Quelques annees plus tard nos droits etaient bafoues par les gouvernements du temps. Ainsi en 1890, l'on ne reconnait plus le statut officiel du fran i;;ais et en 1916 notre langue fut banie comme langue d'en­ seignement.

M. le President. si je tiens a adresser la parole dans ma langue maternelle aujourd'hui c'est que c'est mon droit, ce droit m'appartient; ce droit me fut retabli legalement par une decision de la cour supreme en 1979. Cette province qui n'existe que depuis un peu plus d'une centaine d'annees a revoque pendant 90 ans mes droits fondamentaux. droits reconnus lors de la creation du Manitoba. Enfin cette injustice fut cor­ rigee et cette province est de nouveau officiellement bilingue.

En 1970, un an apres son arrivee au pouvoir, le gou- 184 vernement neo-democrate d'Ed Schreyer a adopte le projet de loi 113 retablissant le fran i;;ais comme langue d'enseignement. Sous un gouvernement conserva­ teur ou liberal nous attenderions sans doute toujours. Pendant trop longtemps noire population s'est angli­ cisee parce qu'elle n'a pu recevoir les services qui lui revenait et s'est vue dans !' obligation de vivre en marge de ses droits. Tout cela c'est du passe.

Cependant. ii ne reste pas moins que la collectivite francophone du Manitoba a beaucoup d'attentes aujourd'hui afin de corriger pres d'un siecle de discrimination et d'injustice envers sa langue et sa culture.

M. le Presi dent, les francophones du Manitoba sont patients et realistes. sachant que tout ne sera pas transforme du jour au lendemain. lls veulent avant tout ce qui leur sera le plus pratique c'est-a-dire les mecanismes sur le plan quotidien. tels que les regle­ ments qui determinent la portee du Bill 113. lls veulent la possibilite de communiquer en franc;:ais. oralement et par ecrit . avec les agences et les services gouver­ nementaux. lls veulent des services equivalents sur le plan de !' education primaire. secondaire et post­ secondaire.

M. le President. nous ne cherchons pas que le retab­ lissement de nos droits, que des traductions de lois et la reconnaissance d'une legalite linguistique. Nous ne cherchons pas a revivre le passe. Voila pourquoi mes priorites ne sont pas la traduction de lois. qui datent depuis une periode nefaste. Nous cherchons surtout des mesures pratiques en reponse a des besoins reels que nous obtiendrons a partir d'une volonte politique et gouvernementale.

S'il n'en a rien coute a cette prov­ ince pendant plusieurs decennies, avancer aujourd'­ hui tiedement. a compte-goutte. n'equivaudrait pas a une reconnaissance dans les fails. II faudra done des doubles bouchees. des doubles mesures car nous ne pouvons attendre encore 50 ans. ni meme 5 ans. C'est d'ailleurs pourquoi, je pense. que la grande majorite des francophones du Manitoba ont vote neo­ democrate. lls ont confiance que ce gouvernement fera beaucoup pour accelerer les services en franc;:ais auxquels ils ont droit. C'est aussi ce qui a ete an nonce dans le discours du tr6ne.

De plus. je suis confiant que ce gouvernement sera pret a entreprendre de son pro pre chef des initia­ tives pour corriger !'injustice flagrante des gouverne­ ments prec edents. II est evident que le peuple franco­ manitobain a su garder beaucoup de fierte dans son heritage et ses coutumes sinon. ii n'aurait pas survecu. M. le President. je voudrais citer ac e moment-ci les paroles suivantes de St-Exupery. Je cites: "Je n'ai le droit de dire ou de faire quoi que ce soil qui diminue un homme a ses propres yeux. Ce qui compte ce n'est pas ce que je pense de lui mais ce qu'il pense de lui-meme.

Blesser un homme dans sa dignite. c'est un crime." fin de la citation. La collectivite franco-manitobaine est riche de par sa langue qui fait

partie integrale de ses traditions et de ses coutumes. en somme de sa culture. En voulant partager cette culture avec tous les autres groupes de la mosa·ique multi-culturelle du Manitoba. les franco­ manitobains s'attendent a ce que la langue. comme toutes les autres coutumes et traditions qui torment leur culture. soit non seulement encouragee a survi­ vre mais aussi a se developper.

Monday, 8 March, 1982 J' aimerais finir ce premier discours en vous disant que je pense que la collectivite franco-manitobaine a, a mon avis, entierement raison d'etre fiere en 1982, tout comme moi franco-manitobain, je suis fier de l'etre et fier de faire parti de ce gouvernement. Je reconnais que les annees prochaines ne seront pas faciles mais je suis confiant que ce gouvernement saura se hisser a la hauteur des defis en demontrant qu'il a le souci des citoyens du Manitoba. Merci. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye MR. ROBERT (Bob) BAN MAN (la Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, like all the other members of the Legislature that have spoken thus far, would, first of all, like to congratulate you for being elected Speaker of this Chamber. I would also like to congratulate the Deputy Speaker and the Mover and the Seconder for the Speech from the Throne. Mr. Speaker, in speaking in what is my ninth Throne Speech I would like to, just briefly, reflect on some of the changes that have occurred in my constituency.

With redistribution this last year I lost a part of the riding that I was sorry to lose, and that is the area running west of New Bothwell, which would include the Village of Niverville. It was my pleasure in the last eight years to serve the people of Niverville in this Legislature and represent them, and I must say that in the years that I did so the response from them, the support I received from them, was very gratifying and, Mr.

Speaker, I am happy to say that the members of that community and that surrounding area showed the same type of confidence in my colleague the Member for Emerson in this last provincial election, and I am sure, played an important role in making sure that Member for Emerson was sitting on this side of the House, rather than on the other side. Mr. Speaker, the constituency which I represent is concerned about a number of things; they are con­ cerned about job opportunities; they are concerned about business opportunities; they are concerned about the tourism prospects in this province.

I am fortunate in having a large number of farmers in my area, mixed farmers; the economy of that area is very heavily reliant on mixed farming and I am proud to say that I believe it is one of the best areas in the Province of Manitoba with regard to farming and small busi­ ness, as far as initiative, as far as investment and as far as a true entrepreneural spirit being shown by these people. Mr.

Speaker, before I go on I would also like to point out that just because these people are aggressive, because these people work hard. we would very often, listening to the members from the opposite side of the House, think that these are the people that do not care for their fellow-man. Well, I want to say to you, Mr.

Speaker, I would dare venture to say that when it comes to helping out their fellow man, when donating from their own time, energy and their own monetary resources, I dare say there isn't any constituency or any people in this Province of Manitoba that give more of themselves, of their time, and tried better than those people because there is a true, genuine concern for their fellow-man. Mr. Speaker, those are the people I represent in this legislature and I am proud to be their 185 voice in this Chamber. Mr.

Speaker, shortly after the election the new administration sat down and thought, well how are we going to go after the opposition and try and make us look a little better and make them look a little worse? So what they did is they tried an age-old trick, they tried to inflate the deficit as much as they could and then blame the mismanagement of the previous government for the deficit. Well, Mr. Speaker, you can't have it both ways.

For four years they kept hammering away at us, saying that we were too tight-fisted, too much restraint the Member for Radisson just spoke and said they were too tight - social services suffered, education suf­ fered; it was just terrible. And, now they are going back to the people and saying we were philanthro­ pists, we spent too much. Mr. Speaker, they found out, the Minister of Finance found out, very quickly that didn't wash. Even their supporters chuckled at it because they knew it was political trickery. Mr.

Speaker, I want to say to you, today, that I don't think any of us are happy with showing the type of deficits that have accrued over the last number of years. Mr. Speaker, one has to keep a few things in mind. The previous administration, in almost every front, cut taxes. with the exception of such taxes as tobacco, liquor and a few of the other taxes. But the personal Corporate Tax was cut; Mr. Speaker the Sales Tax didn't increase, it is still 5 percent, that is what it was when we came in. But, I guess we are going to see that change. But, Mr.

Speaker, I want to say to you that the cries from the opposition about the big deficit and the insi­ nuations that they didn't know what was happening to the deficit; let's be very very frank about this, in 1977, when we took office, we were assuming that we had a small little deficit. The then Minister of Finance announced a deficit of some 48 million, 25 million; we take over, and what is it, 225 million. Mr. Speaker, the members opposite for the last number of years have received quarterly reports every quarter.

As a matter of fact, when the Budget was tabled in this Legislature a year ago the members, then sitting on this side, got up and predicted, I know the Member for ln kster pre­ dicted, $250 million deficit; the Leader of the Opposi­ tion predicted that. Mr. Speaker, now all of a sudden they are trying to sell the public that something has happened, the previous administration overspent. Well, Mr. Speaker, it was all there in black and white for everybody to see, and I want to say to you, you can't sell that one, you can't have it both ways.

It is not washing with the public and I know that if you con­ tinue along that path even your own supporters are going to start chuckling and wondering what is happening. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am going to enjoy the Budget because I know there is a number of things that we will be talking about at that time.

I don't want to say too much on it, but you know one of the things that made me chuckle the last time the quarterly report was tabled, before the government changed, when the Minister of Finance, when the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain was the Minister of Finance, I remember one of the members of the opposition com­ ing on CBC or something and saying "You know those Tories, they always make the deficit look worse than it

really is and really it is not that bad because they make it look bad and then it comes in a little under budget and then it makes them look like good admin istrators." Now, Mr. Speaker, that was one of the members of the then opposition, saying that it really wasn't that bad, we were just trying to make it look bad so we could make ourselves look good. Well, Mr. Speaker, I bet you any money these guys across the way are going to have difficulty living within what they project; I bet they are going to spend even more then that Mr.

Speaker, that will be an interesting exercise because we will deal with that during the Budget debate. One of the greatest problems that the New Demo­ cratic Party faces in the next number of years is the expectations which they have left out in the hustings. Mr. Speaker, they have gone ahead with their prom­ ises and with the many things that they were so very critical of the previous goverment; they have created expectations among the people out there which they are going to find hard to fulfil!. Mr.

Speaker, if I could possibly compare them to something that happened in the political scene in Canada, not too many years ago, when we fought the 18-cent election. Mr. Speaker, I would sugge st to the people of Manitoba that the promises that the New Democratic Party made are going to have the same kind of disastrous effects as that 18-cent election had. Let's just look at the cold, hard facts. Mr. Speaker, in December of 1979 the New Democratic Party, along with the Liberal Government, joined hands to defeat the then Conservative Government Why? Because of the 18 cent a gallon increase in gasoline. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I took the liberty yesterday of sitting down and going through my books and in December 1979 the pump price in Steinbach was 23.5 cents a litre; yesterday, it was 41.2 cents a litre. That is - and I still have trouble with metr ic, I don't know why and maybe I am going to have trouble all my life with it - if we bring it down to someth ing we can all understand, that is an 85 cent a gallon increase, Mr. Speaker, when a government got defeated for 18 cents and that is what we've got now. I sugge st to the citizens of Manitoba, that is precisely what we are going to have with this government.

We are going to be looking at many of their promises, and they are going to cost us dearly. I think the people, in the next number of years, will realize what the promises of this New Democratic Party will ultimately cost them. One of the bigge st planks and one of the most con­ tentious issues in the election was the economy, Mr. Speaker. The New Democratic Party are going to get the economy rolling basically through government involvement, that is there big pitch. Mr.

Speaker, what they have done is, I believe, they are placing all their economic eggs in the government involvement basket Let's look at a little bit of history. I know there are a lot of new members here and let's see what the expe­ rience is. Surely hist ory has some thing to tell us about the directions we should be taking and the directions that governments should go and the one I'd like to deal with brie fly today is the Mani toba Development Corporation.

When we took over in 19 77, we did some research and the one thing that I found out was that the New Democrat ic Party was having second thoughts whether or not a corporation such as the Mani toba Develop- 186 ment Corporation was the one to use with regards to trying to stimulate the economy. And as a result, Mr. Speaker, in 19 75, and I'd like to just read off a few statistics here: the Mani toba Development Corpora­ tion under the New Democratic Party put out five loans; they had 47 employees at the Development corporation and put out five new loans for a total of 681 ,000. That's all in 19 75.

In 19 76 they put out three new loans for a total of 367,0 00. They have already then cut the staff down to 25. Mr. Speaker, I could go on citing some of the other statistics, but really what had happened is the then government, the NOP government, realized that that particular experiment in trying to stim ulate the econ­ omy by government involvement, either directly or indirectly, just wasn't working and it wasn't the Con­ servative government that really wound the MDC down; it was started by the New Democrats because they found out it wasn't work ing. And this is the type, Mr.

Speaker, of rhetoric we sort of heard in the Throne Speech, they're going to get back involved. Now, what was the main thrust of that Development Corporation? It was to try and stimulate economic growth and create jobs, but let's find out what hap­ pened. In the number of companies that were privat­ ized we now have twice the number of employed and, Mr. Speaker, the other thing is that we've got increased production.

In other words, the very things that the corporat ion was trying to do by owning the industry was work ing to the detriment of those companies, and as soon as they were put in the hands of private indi­ viduals in total, today, the last figu res I've seen, they are emplo ying twice as many people as when the government had it Isn't that really what it's all about? Isn't it really job creation what we want? Isn't it really the rule of government, to make sure that the people in this province have an opportun ity to work, to make a profit, to make a proper living, to enhance the quality of life in this province.

Now, another benefit which I may add is that, had the government kept these compan ies, we would have lost another million dollars a year. Not only did we create more jobs, we also cut government losses and those million dollars can be used for other things; for health, for education. So, here we have one area which I sure hope the members opposite don't move into, because good­ ness knows we've sure had experience with that and history has taught us a lesson, and hopefully these members opposite will learn from that lesson, because it was not a good lesson. Mr.

Speaker, that's what I was waiting for, I was waiting for the word, "fire sale. " You know, the Member for St. George, now the Minis ter of Agric ul­ ture, got up and wrote an

article in . One of the unfor­ tunate his things being a Min ister of the Crown is one has I paper talking about the fire saleto, well it's not unfortunate it's part of the system, is that you have to accept respons ibility for what your department does, even it isn't you, yourself, personally, that has been involved in the decision-making process. But they are your people and you are respons ible, as the members opposite will find out very quickly. One of the things that you also learn when you're dealing with business and your're running govern­ ment companies is that, to go ahead and disclose too

Monday, 8 March, 19 82 many things as far as the operations of the company is concerned, you put that company at a disadvantage in the compet itive market, in the marketplace. When Morden Fine Foods was sold, for instance, the members opposite at that time yelled, "fire sale ," you're selling a $1.5 million dollar company for a mil­ lion dollars. It's terrible, there's more stock there than you received for it Well, Mr. Speaker, I would have just loved to open a tin of those carrots that had been sitting on the shelves for four years. those beauti ful yellow carrots that tur ned green.

That's what hap­ pened - mush. If I would have got up in the Legi sla­ ture three years ago and said the stock we sold at Morden Fine Foods was old stock, three, four years old and couldn't be used again, you know what that would have done to the compe titive advantage of that comp any? We would've never had a chance with that company. So we had to sit back, Mr. Speaker -( lnterje ction)- ­ You know, this is a problem that we have with members opposite, they have a total lack of under­ standing how business works and they display it here again. All we know, Mr.

Speaker, is when looking at the stock the inflated values that were on the shelves, the product wasn't there, the money wasn't there. I know the members opposite have a hard time under­ standing that if you own something, if you own an auto mobile for four years and you paid $5,000 for it, it's not worth $5,000 after four years. I know they have a hard time understanding that, but that in a nutshell is what happened here. And now, we're looking at a proble m.

For instance, the then Minis ter, in dealing with this problem when he left government writes some memos saying, "I t appears to me that the situation in Morden in not improving and even appears to be deteriorating," and that's exactly what was happening. So we moved, found a private individual to purchase the plant; it's not costing the taxpayer half-a-mill ion-dollars a year; this person is canning a good product and I encour­ age all members in the Leg islature to buy it, because it's a good product. It's called, Best Pack, and I sug­ gest to the members it's a good product, it's well worth buying.

It's a Manitoba-grown, Manitoba-made product. The stimulation that we are going ahead and going to be witnessing by these members opposite has to also be questioned. As I mentioned before, their main thrust in the economy is to get the government involved. I suggest to them it won't be done very well by going ahead and opening another corporation like the Mani toba Development Corporation because that has proven to be a flop. So what else are they going to do? They are going to be, as the Throne Speech says, reviewing the three larger projects.

All of us know that is not the total solution to the problem here in Mani­ toba but it would, I think, do a lot to enhance the position we're in right now with regard to secondary industries and other things and the spin-off industries that would develop from th is. In dealing with these three projects the government has said that they will be reviewing them. The thrust of this government we know, is to more government owne rship.

One of the interesting things in the Potash Agreement, of course, was that the province was 187 already a partner, a 25 percent partner with the option to purchase another 15 percent, which would have made the province a 40 percent participant and owner in that particular industry and I think the people of Mani toba are going to be very interested to see to what extent this government will become involved there.

I think from past experience in dealing with a lot of these Crown Corporat ions, if you can tap the exper­ tise of the private sector on a deal like th is, it's much better than if the government owns it totally by itself. You have the mineral taxation regime which you can control a lot of the devel opment with; you have the taxation structure in place to encourage mining as well as other mineral explo rations in this province and I think by using the taxation way of making sure that the government receives its proper return is the way it should go.

The other project, of course, that has received much debate and the Member for Gimli just spoke about it, is the Alcan program. Back in May of last year many of us predicted that one of the ways that the New Demo­ crats would fight the election is by - some members over here have used the term the big lie but I would use the big scare - but back in May in this Legi slature we already antic ipated what the members on the oppo­ site side of the House would do with regard to trying to conjure up publ ic support with regard to the three big projects.

The one they were very successful in sort of going ahead and portraying as something that would be terrible for Manitoba, of course, was the Alcan one. They very nicely, of course, and delibe rately said it was a give-away as far as the Mani toba Hydro was concerned. They of course, Mr. Speaker, totally dis­ torted that in the way they've done a number of other things. For instance, I think many of the New Demo crats are still wande ring around living under the illusion that Li mestone was closed down by the Conservative Government.

As a matter of fact, here in a report by the now Minis ter of Co-operative Development, he states in a report in his paper that, "The overall eco­ no mic growth and energy savings would have been aided if orderly develop ment of Hydro was not can­ celled in 1978." Here we have the Pr emier of the Pr ov­ ince in an interview last year saying preci sely the same thing, that if it hadn't been for the order of the development of Hydro being cancelled in 1978, our econo my would be much better.

The record will show and anybody can go down to Hydro and read the board minutes - Limestone was closed down in 1977 in the dying moments of the election. It was closed down not by a Conservative Government, it was closed down by a New Demo­ cratic Government and do you know why they closed it down? They realized they didn't have a sale for the power and they realized that if they kept on building the only thing that would happen is that the ratepayers of this province would be saddled with another 150 percent increase like there was in the three previous years.

So what we decided, the thing this government is going to have to do is to make sure there are firm sales for power before you can go ahead and start opening up Lim estone. But what did they say durin g the election? They say they are going to start Lime stone going immediately without the sales that were being negotiated. Limes-

Monday, 8 March, 1982 tone cannot get started and we all know that and the average Manitoban knows that. So what I'm saying to you right now is that the review on these projects shouldn't take two or three years because we won't have anything happening up at Limestone unless something happens down here with the power grid or with the project such as Alcan.

So when the members opposite think of all the things that went on during the election were things they were lily-white on, I just want to say to them there are many things that are going to come home to roost with regard to their promises and some of the other statements the y've made and these are just a few of them. The other thing I'd like to point out and it's more along a parochial issue - and the Member for Spring­ field is probably interested in this too - one of the interesting things about Alcan's site selection was there were two sites that were really shortlisted.

One is just north of my riding in Sprinfield and the other was a Balmoral site. For obvious reasons I would have liked to have that close to my constituency because I think the spin-off from that would have been very beneficial to that area. The problem we have now is, should we be success­ ful in attracting Alcan to a site such as the Bal moral site? There are a few other companies around that are looking at Manitoba for a possible site too.

Now I ask any thin king person, if there are two sites that are very favourable for this type of an operation and there is a smelter already built on the Balmoral site, where would the other one naturally go? I think the spin-off from that in our particular area would be very benefi­ cial, So not only can that one deal at Balmoral lead to activity in that area, I think there was a little bit of aggressive work with some of the other companies. There is a good possibility that we in our area might have some spinoff on that too. Now, I realize there is a bit of a conflict going on across the way there.

The Member for Thompson wants to see the smelter located up in Thom pson, and I'm sure the Member for Gimli, of course, will have his words to say - hopefully say - about his area. But I can assure you that the majority of people in the east­ ern region of this province will be very happy to have a smelter out there, very happy. Mr.

Speaker, as I said, the biggest problem that this government will have is fulfilling the many expecta­ tions that the people out there have; and I think when we hear from the Budget, when we hear from the Minister of Finance - who goodness knows has a terrible job ahead of him, because he's going to have to carry all those guys on his back - but I think that when all the smoke clears in the next little while, we're going to find out that we're going to be in for more government spending.

We're going to be in for more government; we're going to be in for more taxes; we're going to be looking at more civil servants, we're going to be looking for more regulations, and we're going to be with this all, probably seeing more waste. The question, of course, that we all have to ask is, "How much more of this can we all take?" And it's going to be interesting in the next little while to see exactly where this government takes us.

And I'm con­ fident, when you look at the results from the last elec­ tion, there is only a 3-percent spread, and I suggest to 188 you, the members opposite, that when the problems arise, when the intervention in the market place that you want to undertake doesn't turn out to be exactly what you thought it would be, that you won't derive the revenues from all these things that you think you're going to get revenue from, because history has sh own that the money isn't there it's the private sector tha t's going to make this province grow. It's the farmers, it's not the government.

And I say to the members opposite, we'll be watch­ ing diligently. We'll be, from time to time, expressing our concerns with regards to many of these things, and I know that I have to say to you that some of the members on this side have chosen this opportunity, this first session of this Legislature to sort of take the high road with regards to a lot of these things.

But I want to say to all of you that it's our job to scrutinize; it's our job to be tough, and we will be tough; we will scrutinize, and we will draw inequities as well as other problems to the attention of the Ministers opposite, and hopefully make this province a better place to live. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. BRIAN CORRIN (Ellice): Mr. Speaker, it's a great pleasure to return to the Assembly and be able to participate once again in Throne Speech Debate. It's a particular pleasure, Mr.

Speaker, for me to be in a position today to wish you well and congratulate you on your appointment. I know that you will invest your Office with a real dignity and respect for the Office and the Chamber which you will serve. I also wish to take this opportunity to welcome new members on both sides of the House. It's a great plea­ sure to have so many new members, and I look for­ ward to their contributions, and I want to sincerely express the personal hope that they will be able to realize all their personal aspirations for public service in this forum. As well, Mr.

Speaker, I would be remiss, prior to going into the substance of my presentation, if I didn't say tha t I'm proud to be a member of a new govern­ ment. I want to tell members though that I have served on the other side, as so many of us have. We have been in either government or opposition, I guess, from time to time, and I recognize and respect that both sides play an equally responsible role.

So I say that I wish my friends opposite - not good luck - but I wish them the opportunity to do rewarding work, and I trust tha t when they invest themselves in that work, they will find it gratifying, and they will find that they learn, as I did in Opposition, a great deal about this particu­ lar forum and this particular process. Mr. Speaker, I wish today to take this opportunity to discuss the reference in the Throne Speech to the government's intention to launch a full-scale review of government multicultural policy.

It is an important area, and the government recognizing it as such, will ask this House during this Session to approve neces­ sary funding to initiate a full scale review in this area. Since as legislative assistant to both the Premier and the Minister of Cultural Affairs, I have spent a good portion of the last few months devoting my energies to this subject matter, I now wish to share some of my preliminary observations and conclusions with you,

Monday, 8 March, 19 82 my colleagues, in this Assembly. Prior to the last elec­ tion, we on this side committed ourselves to the estab­ lishment of a multicultural council, whose task it would be to assist our gove rnment in the preparation of a multicultural policy for Manitoba, a policy which we trust will both support and encourage the expres­ sion of our province's multicultural heritage. Our gove rnment's involvement in ethnocultural activity has, in the course of the past few months, reinforced our belief in the concept of cultural pluralism.

We firmly believe that it is in the best interests of our province and our country to protect every ethnic group's right to maintain its own distinctive cultural heritage - the right to live and worship as each pleases within the framework of this province and its laws Mr. Speaker, I have learned that many of our ethnic mino rities feel that they are engaged in a struggle for surv ival against the forces of assimilation.

Consulta­ tion with representatives of these groups have taught me that while on the one hand, they eagerly desire to help government build a unique Manitoba identity, they also desire and expect government to design a multicultural policy that will assure the survival of their cultures as part of a broad Manitoba mosaic. Manitobans of every ethnic background have encouraged us to work earnestly to maintain and encou rage our province's long history of peaceful co­ operation among its many different peoples.

There­ fore, I hope that our concept of multiculturalism will encompass and embrace all the groups in our pro­ vince, from the Polish refugees who arrived last week, to groups and individual citizens whose ancestors have been here for hundreds of years. I believe that every individual, and every group that is part of our province, is also part of it's multicultural natu re, and as such have something unique to offer. In this regard, we on this side are particularly privileged to have as colleagues, representatives who are the first of their people to be elected to this House.

The Member for Rupertsland, as a former Band Chief, is not unused to the weight of great public responsibility, and will undoubtedly make a significant contribution to this House as the first Treaty Indian to serve here. The Member for Burr ows, an academic by profes­ sion, is also endowed with singularly impressive indi­ vidu al qualifications, and I am sure that he will, as the first person of Philippino ancestry to serve in our Legislature, make a significant contribution to the public affairs of our province.

I am pleased to inform this assembly that the Members for Burrows and Rupertsland are playing a major role in the develop­ ment of our governments multicultural policy. Mr. Speaker, the word "multiculturalism" means many cultures, but I believe that it would be a mistake for us as policymakers to interpret the word "cultures" too nar r