May 5,

GOVERNMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 5:40 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Forsey): Good evening, everyone, and welcome.

First of all, we will start out by everyone introducing themselves. Then we

will pass the minutes of the last meeting, and then we will continue from there.

Right at the present we will ask everyone to introduce themselves, and we will

start on this side with the minister.

MS POTTLE: Patty Pottle, Minister of Aboriginal Affairs.

MR. DUTTON: Sean Dutton, Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Labrador

and Aboriginal Affairs.

MR. HICKEY: John Hickey, Minister of Labrador Affairs and MHA for the

great District of Lake Melville.

MR. BOWLES: Ron Bowles, Assistant Deputy Minister, Labrador Affairs,

based in Goose Bay.

MR. GOVER: Aubrey Gover, Assistant Deputy Minister, Aboriginal Affairs.

MS STOKES: Donna Stokes, Executive Assistant to the Minister of

Aboriginal Affairs.

MS OXFORD: Krista Oxford, Executive Assistant to the Minister of Labrador

Affairs.

MR. TOMPKINS: John Tompkins, Director of Communications, Labrador and

Aboriginal Affairs.

MR. OLIVER: Val Oliver, Public Relations Specialist, Labrador and

Aboriginal Affairs.

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MS JONES: Yvonne Jones, Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

MR. BUCKINGHAM: Ed Buckingham, MHA, St. John's East.

MR. LODER: Terry Loder, MHA, Bay of Islands.

MR. POLLARD: Kevin Pollard, MHA, Baie Verte-Springdale.

MR. DINN: John Dinn, MHA, Kilbride.

CHAIR: Clayton Forsey, MHA for Exploits, and Chair.

I would like to have a motion to adopt the minutes of the last meeting.

AN HON. MEMBER: So moved.

CHAIR: Can we have a vote on that?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Thank you.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Each minister will get fifteen minutes to make a presentation, and

then there will be questions. If we want a break in between the fifteen minutes

between each party, we can do that. The other thing is, do you want to break it

down as doing one department first, Aboriginal Affairs, and then Labrador

Affairs, or will we just do it all inclusive? Is that okay with you, Lorraine

and Yvonne, to do those all inclusive?

MS JONES: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay, we will do them all inclusive.

We thank everybody for showing up, and we will begin with the Minister of

Aboriginal Affairs.

MS POTTLE: Thank you.

As Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, it is my pleasure to be here today to

discuss the Estimates of the Aboriginal Affairs Branch of the Department of

Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

Aboriginal issues remain a high priority for the Government of Newfoundland

and Labrador, as we work together with governments and Aboriginal groups to

improve the quality of life for Aboriginal people. It is important to point out

that the majority of activities within Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs,

including land claim negotiations, which are the responsibility of the

Aboriginal Affairs Branch, take place in collaboration with other provincial

public bodies as well as Aboriginal groups, Aboriginal governments, and the

I am pleased to note that in the areas of Aboriginal land claims and

self-government, we continue to make substantial progress. Last December, as

Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, I had the honour to introduce legislation into

the House of Assembly that will assist in resolving land claims in Northern

Labrador and offshore areas adjacent to Northern Labrador and Northern Quebec.

The legislation and amendment to the Labrador Inuit Land Claims Agreement

incorporates an overlap agreement reached in November 2005 between the Labrador

Inuit and Nunavik Inuit who resolved their overlapping land claims in this

Province. The amendments provide increased clarity and certainty for the future

economic development of the area. I was extremely pleased to have the support of

the House in the successful passing of this historic legislation.

The continuing implementation of the Labrador Inuit Land Claims Agreement,

the signing of the Tshash Petapen or New Dawn Agreement and eventual completion

of a land claims and self-government agreement with the Innu will provide Inuit

and Innu with access to resource royalties and Impact and Benefits Agreements.

This will allow them to participate and benefit from economic development in

their regions, improve social outcomes, and promote healthy Aboriginal

communities.

On the Island portion of the Province, we continue to participate in

self-government negotiations with the Miawpukek First Nation and the Government

of Canada. I am pleased to report that those negotiations continue to proceed in

a positive manner and we look forward to their positive conclusion.

As minister, my role within government is to bring the Aboriginal lens to all

activities of government that concern Aboriginal people. I believe it is an

essential perspective one that has proven results throughout Newfoundland and

Labrador. For example, this government continues to support substantial efforts

to stop violence against Aboriginal women and children. Some recent initiatives

include: new funding for shelters in Hopedale, Rigolet and Nain; the expansion

of the Family Justice Services in Labrador to serve Aboriginal coastal

communities and an increase in regular police presence in the community of

Postville; and $125,000 in the current Budget to Aboriginal women in Labrador to

help develop and deliver a series of capacity building workshops in the five

Inuit communities on the Northern Coast. These workshops will assist Aboriginal

women to access programs and services that will result in real differences in

their lives and allow them to share in available social and economic benefits.

The Newfoundland Aboriginal Women's Network will be provided $100,000 in

funding through Budget 2010 to address issues in their communities, such as

poverty and violence, in ways that are culturally sensitive.

Aboriginal youth continue to benefit from the Suicide and Detrimental

Lifestyles Grants Program, which is administered through the Aboriginal Affairs

Department. This program provides $100,000 in funding to Aboriginal

organizations to develop innovative programs that are targeted at improving the

well-being of Aboriginal youth throughout the Province.

In justice matters, Aboriginal leaders have clearly stated that they want a

justice system that understands the unique circumstances of their people. Some

recent initiatives that respond to that need include an Aboriginal

interpretation project for Innu and Inuit communities, and the publication of an

Innu-aimun and Inuktitut glossaries in criminal law and family law.

As well, the Innu Healing Path Program, in partnership with the Innu Nation,

allows for the delivery of a more holistic and culturally responsive service to

Innu involved in the criminal justice system by addressing underlying causes of

criminal behaviour.

This government also recognizes that addressing the health needs of

Aboriginal people can require a response that is sensitive to their unique

circumstances and challenges. We have responded through the recent establishment

of mental health case management services for individuals with serious mental

illnesses, the hiring of an Aboriginal consultant for the Department of Health

and Community Services, and improvements to dental services.

As one can see, the influence of the Aboriginal Affairs Branch is influencing

policy and directives throughout government. For the fiscal year 2010-2011,

notable Aboriginal Affairs initiatives identified in the Aboriginal Affairs

grants

section include $484,000 for implementation of the Labrador Inuit Land

Claims Agreement, and the previously mentioned $100,000 to address suicide and

detrimental lifestyle issues amongst Aboriginal youth through the Suicide and

Detrimental Lifestyles Grants Program.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now my hon. colleague, the Minister of Labrador

Affairs, will speak on the matters in his branch of this department.

MR. HICKEY: Thank you, Minister, Mr. Chairman, and Committee members.

I am pleased to appear before you to discuss the Estimates of the Labrador

Affairs Branch in the Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

Nearly all the activities of this department, including the implementation of

the Northern Strategic Plan for Labrador, require collaboration with other

provincial public bodies and, in some cases, with Aboriginal groups,

The Northern Strategic Plan demonstrates the provincial government's strong

commitment to address the needs of Labrador, to improve infrastructure, advance

social programming and foster economic prosperity. Since its launch by the

Premier and I, on April 20, 2007, the Northern Strategic Plan has seen an

increase in commitments from 145 to 210. When announced, the Northern Strategic

Plan was estimated to be approximately a $250 million investment in Labrador

throughout the course of its five years. Today, the forecasted investment has

more than doubled. It is now expected that more than $587 million will be

invested in Labrador.

In recent weeks I have travelled throughout Labrador meeting with

stakeholders and providing an update on the Northern Strategic Plan. The

meetings in Port Hope Simpson, L'Anse-au-Loup and Happy Valley-Goose Bay were

very successful. The Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and I will be travelling to

the North Coast later this month, and I will be in Labrador West in June to

discuss progress of commitments in the plan.

There have been several major accomplishments since the Northern Strategic

Plan inception. Perhaps most notably are the opening of Phase III of the

Trans-Labrador Highway; a pilot project featuring a year-round ferry service

between Labrador and the Island across the Strait of Belle Isle; establishing an

air ambulance and medevac team in Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

Other large scale infrastructure investments include: a new hospital and

College of the North Atlantic campus for Labrador West; new schools in the

District of Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair, in Port Hope Simpson and L'Anse-au-Loup,

and a new francophone school in Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

We continue to make enhancements to programs and services such as the Medical

Transportation Assistance Program and the Labrador Travel Subsidy. As well, the

recent announcement of some $673,000 for a new satellite dialysis unit for

Labrador West will help reduce travel and improve the quality of life of

patients who will be able to receive dialysis closer to home.

My mandate, as the Minister of Labrador Affairs, is to oversee government's

involvement in Labrador through all departments and to advocate for progress in

all areas of social, economic and cultural development.

Labrador's voices at the Cabinet table speaking for Labradorians continue to

produce substantial results. The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador will

have spent more than $2.4 billion in Labrador since its first Budget in 2004, a

major investment by any government's standard, and through the Northern

Strategic Plan, Budget 2010 will see an unprecedented investment of more than

$158 million spent to improve infrastructure and enhance the delivery of

programs and services throughout Labrador.

For the fiscal year of 2010-2011, major initiatives identified in the grants

section of the Labrador Affairs include $351,000 for the Labrador Transportation

Grooming Subsidy for grooming coastal snowmobile trails and related one-time

funding for our fiscal year 2010-2011. That includes $120,000 to construct a

groomer's shelter for Northwest River; $60,000 for funding to continue the trail

cutting and rerouting of winter trails between Separation Lake and Rigolet and

between Normans Bay and Charlottetown; $20,000 for funding for new signage

between Mud Lake and Happy Valley-Goose Bay and for Happy Valley-Goose Bay to

Northwest River to identify dangerous water crossings between Nain and

Postville. Two hundred and thirty thousand dollars for the Air Foodlift Subsidy

to offset the high cost of air freight for the shipment of nutritious perishable

items such as fruits, vegetables and dairy to Labrador's isolated coastal

communities and $100,000 in operating funding to the Combined Councils of

Labrador.

Thank you for this opportunity this evening. We are available now, Mr.

Chairman, to discuss the details of the Estimates.

CHAIR: Okay, thank you, Ministers.

Before we begin questions, I will call for the subhead.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall it carry? Yes.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CHAIR: Normally it has been the practice, when you are responding to

questions and that, to give your name, but I guess if it is continuous dialogue

and everyone is okay with it that should be okay too. It would be, when

different people are responding, nice to give the names so we can record them

properly.

We will begin with Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Thank you.

I will start with

section 1.1.01., and that is the Minister's Office. The

salary this year, of course, is increased a bit over what was spent last year.

You budgeted $523,700, you did not spend it all but you re-budgeted $524,400

this year. Why wouldn't you have spent it all last year, and what is the reason

for the variance this year?

MS POTTLE: Mr. Dutton.

MR. DUTTON: There were some temporary vacancies due to the staff turnover

in the Minister's Office. So, the amount for the year ahead reflects one less

pay period than the twenty-seven we had in last fiscal year, plus the 4 per cent

increase.

MS JONES: Okay.

Also in that section, under 06. Purchased Services, you budgeted $8,000 and

you spent $50,000. What was the purchase that you made that you did not

originally budget for?

MS POTTLE: A part of that $50,000 is an obligation on my part, as a

minister of the Crown, to have my businesses put in blind trust. So, a part of

that amount there, the Purchased Services, is the fee for blind trust.

MS JONES: Can you give me the breakdown of the $50,000, please, and who

it was paid out to?

MS POTTLE: Yes, $1,100 was toward printing; $46,900 was for the blind

trust; then we had general purchased services of $200; general purchased

services in printing of $100; entertainment for $900; and advertising for $800

for a total of $50,000.

MS JONES: Okay.

Are you providing us a list of who that money is paid out to?

MS POTTLE: For the paid out as in

MS JONES: To what companies it is paid out to. You had so much for

printing, you had so much for blind trust, we are asking that you give us the

MR. DUTTON: We do not have a listing of that here available today.

MS JONES: Okay, can you provide us with it?

MR. DUTTON: Yes.

MS JONES: Okay, thank you.

How many employees are in your offices now, in the ministers' offices?

MS POTTLE: In the ministers' offices we have six employees, plus the two

ministers.

MS JONES: Those six employees are in Executive Support and

MS POTTLE: Yes.

MS JONES: In both departments?

MR. DUTTON: Do you want me to clarify?

MS POTTLE: Sure.

MR. DUTTON: In the minister's office, each minister would have an

executive assistant, a constituency assistant and a departmental secretary; so

that, with the two ministers' positions, would comprise eight. Executive Support

would comprise the Deputy Minister and the two Assistant Deputy Ministers. There

is two administrative staff for the Executive, a Director of Communications and

a communications specialist for the department.

MS JONES: How many temporary employees do you have in your office?

MR. DUTTON: That is a good question. We have a number of staff away on

secondment in the Aboriginal Affairs Branch, so some of those positions are

backfilled by temporary people who have been hired on secondment from other

departments. I believe there are about four analysts in the Aboriginal Affairs

Branch who are temporary in the department. A couple of them would have

permanent status in other departments.

MS JONES: Yes, but they would not come under

section 1.1.01., would they?

MR. DUTTON: No.

MS JONES: Under 1.1.01. - that is what I was questioning - in the whole

department it is telling us that there is $330,000 being paid out to temporary

and other employees.

MR. DUTTON: I believe the temporary employees are, for the most part,

again employees who are acting in a position that has a permanent PCN number,

but that the permanent incumbent is on secondment or on leave.

MS JONES: Okay.

According to the Salary Estimates, it does indicate that there is a

departmental program co-ordinator being paid at $51,360 a year that was not in

the Estimates last year. What are the responsibilities of that individual?

MR. DUTTON: That individual is the person who manages the Air Foodlift

Subsidy and the other grant programs in the Labrador Affairs Branch.

MS JONES: Okay, so who would have handled the Air Foodlift Subsidy prior

to this, because this position was not in previous Estimates although the

program was there?

MR. DUTTON: I think it may have been converted to permanent during the

course of that time, but the person has been on staff for a couple of years now.

Previously, that work was done by one of the senior analysts in the branch, so

this is a GS classified position. It was considered, at that time, that there

was a sufficient volume of work to justify a full-time position on managing the

grants, but that it would be better to devote the time of the analysts toward

other policy and analyst duties.

MS JONES: Okay.

Still on staffing, how long have you been the Acting Deputy Minister in these

two departments?

MR. DUTTON: Since July of 2008.

MS JONES: I ask the ministers: Is there any particular reason why the

position has not been filled on the position other than acting?

MR. HICKEY: (Inaudible). Well, we have had it out for advertising on a

number of different occasions, I think twice. I understand that there are plans

to put it out again in the near future.

MS JONES: On the times that it was advertised, were there no applicants

or just applicants who were not suitable at the time?

MR. HICKEY: Applicants, I would say, who were not suitable.

MS JONES: Okay.

CHAIR: Minister Pottle, did you want to comment on that?

MS POTTLE: Yes, I just wanted to add that if you are aware the position

is open, the position is available and if there is someone out there who you may

think is interested or whatever, encourage them to apply for the position.

MS JONES: Just to move on to Executive Support for a minute under

1.2.01., again the salary piece. You budgeted $667,700, you only spent $512,500,

but you have re-budgeted nearly the same amount this year. What was the variance

for?

MR. DUTTON: The variance was not paying the deputy minister during that

period of time. We have, for 2010-2011, the assumption that a deputy minister

could be appointed on a permanent basis at any time, so we budgeted for twelve

months of salary for that position.

MS JONES: Okay. So they are saving money on you?

MR. DUTTON: We allocated those savings to other priorities in Labrador

including snowmobile trail improvements.

MS JONES: It looks like here you did not spend it, so I am not sure.

Which is it?

OFFICIAL: I beg your pardon?

MS JONES: Did you use it for the trails because here it is telling me you

did not spend it?

MR. DUTTON: In this line item, we would have had to transfer that money

to another line item to pay for snowmobile trail improvements.

MS JONES: Can you tell me where it is transferred in the Estimates?

MR. DUTTON: I believe it would have been under Grants and Subsidies in

Labrador Affairs and that was where we had done, I think, another $100,000 of

snowmobile trail improvements last fall.

MS JONES: You actually spent $210,000 less in Grants and Subsidies, so I

am more confused now.

MR. DUTTON: In Grants and Subsides in Labrador Affairs, is that where you

are reading from?

MS JONES: Yes. In Grants and Subsidies in Labrador Affairs you budgeted

$1,069,000 last year.

MR. DUTTON: Yes.

MS JONES: You spent $859,000.

MR. DUTTON: Yes.

MS JONES: So you spent $210,000 less than what you even budgeted and now

you are telling me that you transferred the $140,000 from the deputy minister's

salary into that.

MR. DUTTON: No, not the full amount, but a portion of it.

MS JONES: Okay. Why would you transfer it there if you were not even

spending what you had already budgeted?

MR. DUTTON: Well, it was during the course of the fiscal year and at that

point we would not have known all of the savings that would have accrued. The

Grants and Subsidies (inaudible) in Labrador Affairs covers a number of

programs, so the base budget for the snowmobile trail improvements would have

been within that amount, as well as the Air Foodlift Subsidy, the grants for the

Combined Councils of Labrador and a number of other items.

At that point in the fiscal year, we had to identify savings in order to

proceed with those savings. So, we had some salary savings in Executive Support,

in Labrador Affairs, and in Aboriginal Affairs, and identified those for

Treasury Board to reallocate towards those priorities. Other savings in salaries

in Executive Support would have gone toward the deficit.

MS JONES: Okay.

I guess I have to ask the question again: Why would you transfer line item

money from one line to a Grants and Subsidies fund when you were not even

spending the amount you had budgeted for? It does not make any sense to me.

MR. DUTTON: We would not have known it at the time because the Air

Foodlift Subsidy program was under review and it was at a time of year before

that program would have kicked in. So, it would only become evident during the

winter how much take-up there would be on that program.

MR. HICKEY: Let me just for the record, Mr. Chairman, as far as the

Grants and Subsidies. For 2009-2010 Budget, the Budget was $1,069,000 and the

Revised was $859,000. The 2010-2011 Estimates are $949,000. The 2009-2010

Revised reflects savings of $210,000 as there was $300,000 savings in the AFS

program and $10,000 savings in the Williams Harbour air subsidy, which were

offset by approval to implement a Wintertrails improvement program midyear that

was $100,000. This resulted in a drop balance of $210,000.

The 2010-2011 Estimates reflect a decrease of $120,000 as follows: reductions

to existing funding; reduction to the Air Foodlift Subsidy, $270,000; removal of

the Williams Harbour air subsidy, $30,000; reduction in funding for the

operating grant of the Combined Councils, $20,000; increases in funding in the

construction of a groomer's shelter; funding to continue the trail cutting and

rerouting of Wintertrails between Separation Lake and Rigolet and between

Normans Bay and Charlottetown; funding for new signage for the Churchill River

crossing between Mud Lake, Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Northwest River; and to

identify dangerous water crossings between Nain and Postville, for a sub-amount

there of $120,000.

MS JONES: Okay. Maybe I will have to get it clarified with Finance,

because I am still not seeing how this is coming out in the Estimates. I just

went back to the 2009-2010 Budget, and in that budget they had estimated then

the $1,069,000, which is the same amount that is listed here as the estimate

amount, voted on, the revised amount. I am not seeing reflected anywhere here

the transfer of more money. I do not know if there is something I am not seeing

or not understanding, but if there is salary money being transferred into

certain sections, I am not seeing where it is. So maybe there is something

there.

What I am noticing is that the original Grants and Subsidies budget used to

be nearly $1.8 million and now in this year it is being reduced to $949,000. In

two years it has actually gone from nearly $1.8 million down to half that

amount. I am just wondering, what has been lost in that transition over that

two-year period? I understand from your comments just now that you said that you

would see some reductions in the Air Foodlift Subsidy grant this year and the

removal, I think you said, of the air subsidy for Williams Harbour.

MR. HICKEY: Yes.

MS JONES: I am not sure of why you are removing the air subsidy. Are you

replacing it with something else or is it coming under a different heading or a

different department, or you are just not going to provide the subsidy any

longer?

MR. HICKEY: No. What we are saying here, basically, is that there was no

update on the subsidy because there are no flights going in there. So, you

cannot have an air subsidy if you have no flights going in there. Obviously, if

there are no flights going into Williams Harbour, so therefore there would be no

need for an air subsidy.

MS JONES: Okay. Unless something happened today, the plane is stilling

going into Williams Harbour three days a week.

MR. HICKEY: I understand that is a medevac correct me if I am wrong

now, Yvonne.

MS JONES: No. Three days a week, the South Coast from Charlottetown South

is being serviced. The plane comes every morning out of Blanc Sablon, it goes to

St. Anthony, and the route up to Charlottetown and back. Williams Harbour is on

that scheduled route for mail and medical services, as well as regular passenger

services. So I am not aware that it has been removed. The only commercial

passenger services that were removed in my district, to my knowledge, were Black

Tickle and Cartwright.

MR. HICKEY: We understand from conversations we have had with Air

Labrador that they have planned to discontinue those services. We met with them

when was that, ADM?

MR. BOWLES: We met in - some six months ago, Minister.

MR. HICKEY: I do not know if it was six months, but certainly it has been

a few months back. That was the information that we got from them, is that they

were not going to continue those flights into those communities.

MS JONES: Well, it is certainly news to me. When I met with them it was

when they informed me that they were going to withdraw commercial services out

of Black Tickle and Cartwright, which they have since moved forward and have

done. They have put in a new configuration of service along the South Coast, as

I said, based on their aircraft that they keep down south. It goes Blanc Sablon,

St. Anthony, up through and back.

I know the subsidy was covering off the landing fees for that runway. That is

as I understand it. I will have to check, but if there is a case that the

airline is continuing - because this is all news to me. I am just finding this

out right now.

MR. HICKEY: No, we met with them and that is what they told us.

MS JONES: I met with them as well prior to them cutting the services in

Black Tickle and Cartwright, but they certainly did not inform me that they were

pulling out of Williams Harbour. I will have to check, but if they are going to

maintain those services there

MR. HICKEY: If they are going to maintain services, we are going to

continue to provide the service there. If the airplanes are going in there we

are going to continue to provide the service. There is no question about it.

The only one (inaudible) was looked at because our impression from the

meetings that we have had with them is they were pulling out. So if they were

pulling out, then we were not prepared to that was $30,000 that we said we did

not need to put in there, but if they are continuing with it then certainly we

will continue to provide the airlift service to Williams Harbour.

MS JONES: Okay.

On the Air Foodlift Subsidy because there was a tremendous amount of

confusion around the program last year. As you know, the program comes into

effect in January. It was not until February 15, I think was the date of the

press release that came out which told us that the subsidy was no longer going

to be provided to areas in Southern Labrador.

I am asking two questions: one is, why you would have waited until six weeks

into the program before you would have informed people that you were not going

to provide it any longer; and secondly, because the ferry was on a pilot project

granted, it worked out well because ice and weather conditions were

exceptional this year, we did not have any major problems, but because it was on

a pilot project why would you make the decision to remove the subsidy until

there was a guaranteed service?

MR. HICKEY: No, I think it is you are very clear; obviously there are a

couple of things. We would not provide an air food subsidy to communities that

were connected obviously by road. As far as we were concerned, we put $1.5

million into the connection as a pilot project for last winter which worked out

very well. I think the feedback I have gotten, certainly from communities in

your district and from the travelling public, is that they were very

appreciative of the fact that we had the crossing there all winter and certainly

it is our intention to maintain a year-round crossing in future years.

As far as the Air Foodlift Subsidy is concerned, one of the things we have

noticed is that there is not the uptake on it that there used to be in past

years and we will obviously adjust accordingly, but having said that, there is

money there for those communities and those businesses that want to avail of

this particular program. It has been touted by people who have reviewed it

across the north as a model program. I know the federal government has said it

is one of the best programs out there. Having said that, we do get problems with

some businesses not wanting to participate in it and there is nothing we can

really do about that. As the old fellow said, you can take the horse to the

water but if they do not want to participate, certain businesses for whatever

reason, there is no way that we can continue that.

I will say this, is that we will continue to monitor the program. We will

continue to review it. We will continue to look at ways to promote it to the

business community, but at the end of the day, I have said this before and I

will say it again, it is certainly not my intention as the minister to continue

a program if at the end of the day the people of these communities cannot

purchase fresh fruit and vegetables and milk at a decent price. That is why we

have somebody monitoring it on a regular basis. We are going to start going in

and doing spot checks in certain stores to ensure that they are selling the

goods for a decent price and that people can afford it. I hope that answers your

question there.

MS JONES: It answers one part of it. The other part of it, the first part

of my question was: Why would you have a program announced in January and then

six weeks later inform

MR. HICKEY: Why would we what, sorry?

MS JONES: - part of the public that they were not going to be able to

access it?

MR. HICKEY: Sorry, I did not get the first part of your question.

MS JONES: I am asking why you waited six weeks to inform the public that

the program was going to be cancelled in one region of Labrador? Because it was

on February 15 I think the announcement came out

MR. HICKEY: It was not cancelled.

MS JONES: The program usually runs until the end of March.

MR. HICKEY: To the best of my knowledge it was not cancelled. Did we

cancel it? I do not remember that.

MR. BOWLES: No, the program was not cancelled. It was status quo that

the way the program works is that the Air Foodlift Subsidy program will be in

place and continue to be in place unless there is an interruption in the marine

service, which in this case when the Apollo would go off in years past we

would obviously put the flying subsidy on, the aircraft subsidy.

With the $1.5 million investment by government in the Bond there was

no need to do that. It was continued. The people still were getting the goods

coming up over the road. If there were any interruptions in the road service

with the rock clearings or if there was a close between Red Bay and Lodge Bay,

we could kick in that program at the time. With the implementation of the Shadow

Pond depot, that certainly reduced those numbers as well.

The program continued as is. The only difference this year is that there was

the Bond on. So we would not fly and have a boat at the same time. People

were still getting the goods come in and they were still putting their programs

into us. The retailers were still dealing with our program co-ordinator as

business as usual.

MR. HICKEY: One of the things just to add a little bit to that is

that obviously we were late when we decided to make that decision to run that

boat. Obviously, as we move forward into next year, of course the businesses

along the coast will now be able to get their food stuffs in on a regular basis

which will mean that they do not have to incur the high inventory costs and

keeping a building and warehouse and these type of costs.

As we move forward and the transportation system continues to improve, then

certainly the program is there. Our take on it is that for those communities

that are within the policy, they will continue to get service out of this

program. For those communities that are connected by road to the Trans-Labrador

Highway, that would not take place unless, like the ADM said, if the boat was to

give up or for mechanical reasons or ice or whatever and we were going to wait

three or four weeks before we could get it back open, then certainly they would

be able to avail to it the same as they did before. So that is where our head is

to on it.

MS JONES: I have a couple of other questions. One is around the

MR. HICKEY: Just if I may, I think this is an important point before you

go on with your next question.

MS JONES: Yes.

MR. HICKEY: Just for the sake of the Committee, and I will just pass this

but I think it is something that we need to cover. Just so that everybody

understands how the program works and what it covers, the Air Foodlift Subsidy

program is the subsidization of select perishable fruits, vegetables, dairy

products and full freight milk subsidy during the marine shipping season for the

North Coast communities, Black Tickle, Norman's Bay, and Williams Harbour; full

air freight subsidy on fresh milk, and an increase in the AFS rate to 80 per

cent, an average increase of 10 per cent for the participating communities and

revised eligible food list to reflect more nutritious items. I just want to put

that there for those of you who may not be familiar with the program. That is

sort of what it covers off, just for clarification.

Go ahead, I say to the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: A couple of questions. We were talking about air services, and

as you know, Air Labrador has pulled their commercially operated service out of

Black Tickle and out of Cartwright. Cartwright is well, it has become an

inconvenience. They have not been cut off in any way because of the road

network. Black Tickle really has been cut off in many ways. I get a lot of

calls. Actually, as recently as today, I have had some more e-mails from the

community. What is happening is that the aircraft that is flying in there,

although it is a chartered Skedivac service providing medical services to the

community, you can only get on the flight to go in or out if there is available

space, and you can only book that space, basically, when the plane is getting

there. The plane leaves then, and if they go into Cartwright or into Rigolet and

all of a sudden there are patients to be picked up, those individuals can get

bumped off the plane.

It is becoming a problem, and I wanted to raise it with you because we will

be looking to government to work with us to put some kind of a subsidization

program in place for this community to ensure that they have year-round access

because right now they do not. This winter they did not have winter access by

snowmobile that was safe because we did not get the freeze-up and we did not get

the cold temperatures. The times that you could get in and out of the community

were rare and random and you really had to know where you were going to be able

to use the ice. I think you would know that through your trail grooming program

because it was not really suitable, you could not send a trail groomer out there

to go over that ice.

It is becoming a problem, but this is a community that has a tremendous

amount of problems. I am not saying that there are other communities in Labrador

that do not have a number of issues to deal with. This is a community that has a

tremendous amount of issues to deal with. Right now, we have a situation with

the water supply. I realize that through your intervention and that of the

government, they have a $10,000 grant. Unfortunately, the grant only covered

half the cost of being able to get clean water pumping in the community again.

There is an outstanding bill of over $50,000 on the facility, and there is no

money to pay it.

Most of the people in the community live below the poverty line in wages. I

think the highest income earners are between $15,000 and $17,000 a year per

family. There is very little employment in the community. It is a significant

problem when you do not have air access on a regular basis although, do not

get me wrong, they have patient access.

They do not have clean drinking water that they can afford. The water system

is running now; however, it is being operated by volunteers. There is no money

to pay the person who normally operates the water treatment plant, so they do

have volunteers doing it. You know and I know that those things sometimes work

out and sometimes they do not.

As well, the community has not had any crushed stone on its roads in ten

years. Every year it has been put forward by myself as the MHA as a priority for

the district to have resurfacing done in this community along with two other

isolated communities in my district. Every year I am told by the department that

it was not submitted as a priority of the Department of Transportation and Works

out of Labrador, so therefore it did not get done.

At some point, whether it is a priority for them or not, it is a priority for

the people who live in the community and it really needs to get done. There has

been no crushed stone there for ten years. The nurses who work in the community

are telling me that the roads are so bad that they have had to take the hospital

bus off the roads and they cannot transport patients right now to the airport.

It might be on a temporary basis.

We are obviously trying to get the department to grade the roads right now as

the only grader in the community is on the airport. Apparently, there has to be

special permission obtained to use the only grader in the community, although it

is owned by the department to actually do the roads, and I do not understand

that.

You lived in Labrador all your life, as I did, so has Patty, and you know

yourself you do not have a lot of resources to work with. So, if there is a

grader there, it is there to be used on the airport, or a snowplow, or whatever

the case is, can it be some kind of an automatic thing that come the spring of

the year you go out and push snow off the road so people can use it, or get by

in their truck, or you go out and you run the grader over it.

I do not think I should have to be calling the deputy minister and sending

e-mails off to him and calling the director in Labrador to try to get this done.

To me, that is just common sense. It is the environment that you live in; it is

just about serving people.

I do not know if, through your department, there is any way that you can

influence some policy change there or to put some kind of a practice in place

within the department that when you have a community like this in Black Tickle,

and again in Williams Harbour, that these things get done automatically.

I guess my question is this - and I do not know if this is something your

department can take on or if it is not, and you can tell me if it is not. Maybe

you could work with me to help me find or identify some money to do a project in

Black Tickle in terms of identifying the social challenges that the community is

faced with and what it will take to provide an acceptable standard of living in

this community. What I mean by that is the waste disposal site - the dump is a

mess. We have been the last two or three years trying to get money from

Municipal Affairs.

I am going to be honest with you, many of these departments I have had a

tremendous amount of success getting money for communities in my district. When

it comes to Black Tickle, I have had very little success. I can easily add it

up. To me, it is unacceptable. I do not know if it is because you have a

population of 160 people and it is a really small town and it is completely

isolated, but it seems like there are no breaks for them. There are surmountable

issues around waste management, the condition of the roads, transportation at an

affordable rate, clean drinking water. The other piece, of course, is the living

below the poverty line and the fact that this community has no food banks; it

has none of those amenities that you find in larger cities.

One of the areas that we have been really successful with is housing. Because

of the Aboriginal housing program and the Metis' national agreement, they have

been able to put a lot of money into this community in the last year for housing

projects. That has made a difference, but there are a lot of gaps with the other

projects.

I do not know if there is a way that your department would commit to doing

some kind of an assessment or a study. It is okay for me to sit here and tell

you, you can go in and sit down and talk to them, you will come out with the

same stories that I have. To do something in a very proper manner in terms of

addressing the standard of living that exists there and if there are ways to

improve the services, the cost to improve the services or whatever the case may

be.

We need to create more awareness around the needs in this community. It does

not seem like it is happening. You would have to agree, when you have to call a

director of transportation and a deputy minister and do it several times to try

to get a road cleared with the only piece of equipment in the community, there

is a problem, there is a disconnect here somewhere.

MR. HICKEY: I agree.

Just let me try to address a couple of the points that you have made. First

of all as far as Black Tickle is concerned, I have interceded on behalf of Black

Tickle on a couple of occasions when they have asked me to intercede on their

behalf.

Just prior to Christmas, I received a call from Black Tickle and at the time

they had no filters. I went to the Department of Municipal Affairs and we got an

emergency grant for them immediately for some $10,000.

The same conversation I had with the community of Black Tickle, at the same

time the other issue, of course, was the fact the airplanes were not going in

there and so therefore they needed to get out. We went to the Department of

Transportation and Works at the time and they were given, I guess it was a

subsidy which they were only paying one leg of the fare to Cartwright. We helped

them out with that.

The other thing we have been doing with Black Tickle is that we have been

trying to find an economic base for Black Tickle because when it comes to those

communities - Normans Bay, Williams Harbour and Black Tickle - those three

isolated communities in the district, Black Tickle is the largest. When you look

at Black Tickle from the perspective of infrastructure, I still believe while

there are some challenges in Black Tickle and I will agree with you on that

point there are some opportunities, I believe, there also.

We have been working - we had a situation last fall where we had made contact

with a Chinese investor out of Toronto who had come looking for some 20,000

seals. We had talked to Black Tickle. We have talked to a number of places in

Labrador regarding this opportunity, but Black Tickle was the only place,

through the Labrador seafoods company there they own the fish plant, as I

understand, in Black Tickle, they had freezing capacity there.

So, we thought it would be an ideal opportunity to get the seal fishery

moving. What we said to the Chinese at the time was we wanted to see full

processing of the carcass bought from the fishermen. That would mean they would

have to buy the seal fat, they would have to buy the meat, they would have to

buy the skins, and those products. They were very excited about, very excited

about it. We then made some more contacts with the Chinese, and they said they

would probably look for 20,000 animals this year, and they could possibly

increase to they said it depended on the market over in China.

We are going to try to continue to work with that. In talking to the people

in Black Tickle, there are a lot of seals around Black Tickle, as you know and I

know. We still think there are some fisheries opportunities there in Black

Tickle, in certain species that we may want to further explore. We have a good

fish plant there. Hopefully, God willing, we will be able to find something.

On your point about the plowing of the roads, I do not again - and I guess I

am not the lead minister on that department, but I certainly will raise it with

the Minister of Transportation and Works. If we have a grader in Black Tickle

that we can use to grade the roads to make an improvement there, certainly I see

no reason, now there may be some reason why it cannot be done, but I cannot any

reason why we could not do it. We have done it in the past, and I will certainly

work on that piece with you.

As far as the community is concerned, water is a huge issue there. Good,

palatable water is a major issue, and it is something that we are prepared to

work on with the local service district. Every time they have called we have

responded and we have helped them out where we can. I will say there are some

social issues, obviously, in the community also that need to be looked at.

I think the success of Black Tickle will be trying to find an economic base

for their community. If they could do that with the seal fishery or in the

fisheries perspective, then I think that is where we should be looking because

that is where most of these people have spent most of their lives anyway, on the

sea or fishing related.

Certainly, we will do our best to assist the community anyway we can. I

appreciate your points.

MS JONES: Just before I turn it over to Lorraine, I have just a few more

comments on the Black Tickle piece. One, whatever industry we can create there,

of course, I am all for it. We did do seal processing there actually for almost

three years. Ron, I think, was involved with that project and it was successful.

It was just a matter of markets being lost and so on.

We are doing a project there now actually we have been doing it for three

years in the purchase of berries for a company who is doing well, actually

Labrador Preserves who is a manufacturer of berry products and is hopefully

expanding their operation in the next year. The problem with some of these is

that we have been working with HRDC for two years to try to get it insurable

employment and all of this stuff. I think we might be almost there, so that

could probably work a little bit in our favour.

It does not change the fact that there are all of these other issues that

need to be addressed now, and the water issue is an important issue. I want to

outline the fact that there is $50,000 owing and that there is no money to pay a

full-time person to operate that pump house because I will be going to Municipal

Affairs to look for money to try to put this back on an even keel again and try

to set up some committee to run it within the community. That is why I am making

you aware of it.

The other issue is with regard to the freight rates and the ferry rates going

in and out of the community. Now that they are connected by road, there has been

some discussion about looking at a different model of marine services for this

community. They brought it up to me when I was in there for a public meeting a

couple of months ago. Basically, we have not really talked about what that

should look like, but it is something I would encourage government to explore.

Right now, the Northern Ranger goes in there and the Astron on the

way North to Nain and back. I guess what they are looking at with the road

connection in Cartwright now is: How do we develop a more frequent service

between Black Tickle and Cartwright where we can travel back and forth and take

our vehicles and have full access to the highway?

Basically, that is where the discussion has been. Of course, we would like

for government to turn their attention to providing that longer term service if

there is not going to be a road built there to the community. In the immediate

future we would like to ask that you look at the rates again. We know that there

was a reduction in the rates in the last five years. However, again they are

looking at this as - this boat, no matter if it comes once a week, even though

it is only once a week it is their access to the highway. Right now they are

still paying, I think it is over $500 or $600 to get their vehicle from Black

Tickle out to Cartwright and to get it back. It is a high amount to pay and I

would like to ask that you would look at bringing it more in line with what you

would normally pay on a ferry service. Although I know it is not a ferry

service, it is a freight transportation service but the rates are still

relatively high.

MR. HICKEY: So they would put their

CHAIR: Mr. Minister, before you respond to the question - and you can in

a second.

MR. HICKEY: Okay.

CHAIR: Just for the information of Yvonne, Lorraine is really short on

time and maybe after this one she may be able to get in -

MS JONES: Yes, I told her that.

CHAIR: She is really -

MS JONES: I did not know she was short on time but I just told her this

was my last question.

CHAIR: I just found out a couple of minutes ago myself.

Minister Hickey, you can certainly respond to that.

MR. HICKEY: Yes. Just on the point that you raised there, I will say to

you is that I am prepared to certainly work with any of the communities on the

Coast of Labrador to try to improve the services. We have done some good work;

we still have lots of work to do.

As far as the rates are concerned, we did review the rates, as you have

mentioned. We can certainly do that, look at that again. So what you are saying

is that you would like to see, when the Astron goes into Black Tickle,

that if someone has a pickup truck or a vehicle there they would be able to put

it on the Astron and bring it to Cartwright, drop it off there and then

have access to the road. Okay, we will look into that. That is a reasonable

question.

MS JONES: Yes. We are looking at Cartwright, not Goose Bay, because I

know the freight configuration is different between Cartwright and Goose Bay.

MR. HICKEY: Yes.

MS POTTLE: Yvonne, these are some of the issues that are here in my

district as well, that I have been working on with the minister. When I get the

opportunity I will include that because that is an issue that came up in my

district. So I will incorporate Black Tickle into that, if you do not mind.

MS JONES: Yes, thank you.

CHAIR: Lorraine.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

I did not indicate before, because I thought we were going to be breaking up

the time. You had indicated we were and I thought I could get my place in and

then leave. So thank you.

CHAIR: Yvonne got caught up in her that is okay.

MS MICHAEL: I am going to, instead of asking individual questions,

because I have three or four pages here that I am not going to ask any

individual questions. It is a general question, and that is when we look at the

progress report of the Northern Strategic Plan, which is very good, and then we

look at the original plan, there are quite a number of things that do not show

up in the progress report. I will just give you an example of - maybe there are

assumptions that I am supposed to make about they are covered off because of

something else.

For example, you have the pilot project with regard to the ferry service but

in the original plan it said that you would be evaluating options for the

provision of two new ferries for the Labrador Straits ferry route. So, is that

plan just now not going to be considered at all or

MR. HICKEY: No, no; let me be very clear. From where we sit with

Transportation, we expect, people who live in Labrador, and I am sure Yvonne's

district is no different those of us who live in Labrador, we expect a roll-on

roll-off type of service year-round. Now obviously, next year is 2011, and it is

going to be a crucial year because many of the contracts that we have with the

private operators will be up. So, there will be a new opportunity for us to go

to tender. Having said that, the department, when I was there as minister - and

I still believe today it is still the plan - is to look at, into the future, two

new ferries, one of which would be an icebreaker.

The other thing we would look at is, while St. Barbe is ideal for summer

transport across, the twelve-hour route to Corner Brook is not ideal for the

travelling public. So, obviously, there is a willingness from our perspective to

move forward to look at an alternate winter port. Certainly, Port Saunders and

I am just throwing these out now. We have not made any decisions on that, but

certainly to study opportunities to look at places like Port Saunders and maybe

other communities along that coast where your crossing time would be down to

probably four hours let's say, rather than twelve, because the problem - we do

have a problem.

While it was great for this winter and a lot of people took advantage of it,

but if you take someone from St. Anthony who wants to go up to Southern

Labrador, they have to go all the way to Corner Brook now and then come all the

way back, or if you have someone who has a hospital appointment in St. Anthony,

they have to go down to Corner Brook and drive all the way up. So, it is not

ideal. We did it this year. It was something we had, the Bond was

available. We felt that with the ice conditions - it was looking very

favourable. We did run the service. The service was very successful toward the

end there. We were talking like full trips all the time. It was a big saving;

the truckers certainly were very pleased about it. We received very positive

feedback from the travelling public and from the trucking community.

MR. BOWLES: I can answer that question.

MR. HICKEY: Yes, go ahead, add to it.

MR. BOWLES: Yes, just to add to what the minister said. On your point

there with the evaluation of the two new ferries, that is in the progress

report. The way the progress report is set up is that it talks about what was

done in the first two years of the report. Then it talks about what the minister

alluded to earlier, going from 145 commitments to over 210. What we have done in

the annex is added the additional new initiatives.

Also, in the moving forward section, if you look on page 42 under not

complete, it will say evaluate options for the provision of two new ferries for

the Labrador Straits ferry route that will provide year-round service, pending

ice conditions. The date is also set there, 2011-2012. In the report will be

what is completed, what is not completed and the new initiatives.

MR. HICKEY: The important

part I want to make

MS MICHAEL: We did not see that.

MR. HICKEY: Yes. There is an important point I want to make here, is that

this is something that we take great pride in. This strategic plan is not

something that was done today and that is it.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HICKEY: Every year there are opportunities for input. Every year we

will review the needs of communities. Things change, demographics change,

transportation is now changing, and air access is changing. There are so many

things that are changing because of improvements to transportation in Labrador

that we have no choice but to review this each and every year.

We will continue to ratchet up these commitments as new things come on. I

thank you for that point and it is a very important issue for us in Labrador to

make sure that we get that continuous service across the Strait of Belle Isle.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Thank you.

As I said, there were a number of things. For example, one thing that is not

complete is the final decision on the central airport for Southern Labrador.

That was one of the things I had noted.

MR. HICKEY: I would like to address that.

MS MICHAEL: You do not indicate when that might happen.

MR. HICKEY: Yes, let me just address that because that is a very

important issue for the people of the Coast.

Right now, what has happened is that we have been up to Ottawa. We have put

this in front of the federal government that there are two major airports right

now in Labrador that need to be looked at. A new airport, first priority; the

number one priority in Labrador for airports right now is the Nain airport. Nain

has no road connection. The airport is in the wrong location. You cannot get in

there and you cannot improve the systems at that particular airfield because of

the location.

We have done a study. As a matter of fact, the study was done when I was

that was in, I guess, 2005-2006. Two new locations were identified. Then two

years of weather data has to be collected because they have to get the weather

patterns before they make the final decision on the configuration of where the

runway lies. That is ongoing, but the cost of the Nain airstrip right now is

close to the $50 million range. The sites in Nain would be located about five

kilometres from the community, as I understand it.

The airport in Port Hope Simpson is also a priority. Basically, what happens

now is we get about $1 million a year for airport improvements from the federal

government. They have requested that we opt out of that agreement and our

response to them is that we would be pleased to opt out of the agreement once

you have put the federal money into fixing the infrastructure we have at Nain

one; and two, to make the improvements that we require at Port Hope Simpson to

make that a regional airport with a paved runway and all of the amenities that

it should have for that particular part of the Coast.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Is it like the agreement that happened with the ferry service in the Gulf?

No, no, I do not mean that negatively. I mean: there is no road, you put a ferry

in. So, we got the road but we have some airstrips that need

MR. HICKEY: The issue with the Nain airstrip right now is we are losing.

We know that much of the traffic that is going through the Torngat National Park

right now is coming through Quebec and Kuujjuaq and we want to make sure that

comes through Nain and the Nunatsiavut Government and through Happy Valley-Goose

Bay. So that is really something that we are very conscious of.

MS MICHAEL: I think I will ask a general question, Minister, because then

I am going to have to go.

The things that are in as non-complete that were slated originally for

2009-2010, what is your intent with those things? That these are still ongoing,

are they continuous?

MR. HICKEY: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Because you do not have them down as continuous. You just

have them as not complete, like the construction of the new facility for the

LabWest campus.

MR. HICKEY: Well, these things are issues that are ongoing. Obviously,

the major focus when I was given this job as Minister of Labrador Affairs was to

focus on improving the infrastructure. That was the direction from the Premier.

He wanted to see the infrastructure in Labrador brought up to an acceptable

level as to the rest of the Province, and that is where my focus has been. What

I basically do each and every year, and then we go through it with my staff, is

we go into every single office, ministers, we sit down with the senior

bureaucrats, we sit down with the minister, we put our issues on the table that

we have to deal with and then we go through the process. We have had a lot of

success, but I will agree with you, there is more that needs to be done.

In Labrador West, we are committed to the $100 million hospital there. We are

all frustrated that this could not have happened a little faster. There was a

land issue; government had no say over that. It was the Town of Labrador City

that said: you get us the money for the hospital, we will get the land. Mayor

Graham Letto told me that when I was Minister of Transportation and Works. They

went and got the land, we got the commitment from the government to build a new

hospital, only to find out after we spent $1 million there that IOC came back

and said they had some issues regarding noise and vibration. So that put us out

a year, because we could not continue on unless we knew exactly - we were not

going to continue on with the construction unless we knew exactly where we were.

As I understand it right now, a contractor is mobilizing to talk to the

minister today; a lot of pressure on the contractors this year. We have had an

early season and we expect the contractors to be up at both of these projects in

Labrador West, the new college building and the new hospital. The other thing on

the Lab West side right now that is happening is Humber Valley Paving. They are

just mobilizing now to start the continuation of the hard surfacing. So, quite a

bit of activity over in Labrador West, yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Thank you.

MR. HICKEY: Thank you.

MS MICHAEL: I am finished.

CHAIR: Are you finished?

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

CHAIR: Okay.

Thank you, Lorraine.

Is (inaudible) coming back? I guess she know Lorraine was finished. We will

wait a minute, if you don't mind.

[Committee takes a short break]

[Technical problems; mike not turned on]

MR. HICKEY: (Inaudible) before we would ever see it. Obviously,

technology in this field is changing, but, having said that, The Straits

crossing is also a huge challenge. I think the Premier stated, I remember, he

would love to see a tunnel across there. We all would love to see a tunnel

across there, but I will say this, it would mean a lot of challenges and it

would be very expensive, somewhere in the $2 billion range. I would not say it

is off the radar, but I will say it is something that we will keep visiting,

because every year new things are coming out in this technology. So, what may be

there this year may be much more improved next year. We are going to continue to

look at it. It is still an option that we will continue to consider, but we are

not holding everything else up waiting on it.

MS MICHAEL: We cannot.

MR. HICKEY: Yes, we cannot; that is right.

Our main thing, I guess, regarding The Straits crossing is to try to get a

crossing and a

schedule there that is going to meet the needs of the travelling

public. We believe that there is going to be a tremendous amount of traffic on

this highway. What we are seeing right now is the truckers are starting to

wonder whether or not they are going to go through Port aux Basques or come up

through Labrador, because they spend ten hours in Port aux Basques sitting there

burning fuel and on the way back they sit another ten hours in North Sydney

burning fuel. So, like the guy told me in Deer Lake when I went into the truck

stop and had a chat with the guys there, he said: If I was twenty hours burning

fuel, I can cover a lot of ground in twenty hours and I could be up through

Labrador.

I think, again, this is all new to us, the demographics have changed, the

travelling public is changing, and we are getting a lot more requests this year

than ever we did before for information about the highway. I think, from the

tourism perspective, it is going to be a tourism mecca for people who are going

to want to visit Labrador, the Northern Peninsula, and the Island portion of the

Province.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Lorraine.

Yvonne, do you have a couple more questions?

MS JONES: Yes, just to pick up on the Port Hope Simpson airport. You said

the costing on the Nain airport was $15 million. What is the costing on the Port

Hope Simpson airport?

MR. HICKEY: It is less than $50 million. I am just trying to think, I

thought it was around again, we can get you that rather than just throw a

number at you. We could probably get that, but I think it was around $15 million

to $20 million. I may be out to lunch on that, but we can certainly get you that

information.

MS JONES: Okay. If you could get us the figures, that would be good.

You said that you had, or someone within government - I am not necessarily

saying you or the Minister of Transportation or whatever - had discussions with

the feds. Do you know when that occurred or when it was?

MR. HICKEY: There has been correspondence, obviously, and that kind of

thing with government on this issue over a number of years. We have raised it at

different occasions when we have met with them. They are certainly familiar with

the project both projects for both airports. They are both on the radar

screen.

When the federal government is going to come across with getting to these

projects that is a horse of a different colour, I would not be able to venture

there, but I will say that they are very familiar with the projects. I know when

myself and Minister Denine were up there, we did certainly speak about these

projects with the regional minister, Minister MacKay. I have to say, while he

never gave any firm commitments on either one of them, these projects are very

much aware of in the federal government and the federal system.

MS JONES: Okay.

I have a couple of questions around Williams Harbour. I know you guys

cancelled the road going in there and then you did a survey on putting some kind

of bridge across Winter Tickle that did not happen as well.

Is there anything still on the radar at all for putting a permanent

transportation connection into Williams Harbour?

MR. HICKEY: No.

Let me make myself very clear, as we sit here right now this government has

no plans on building a road either to Williams Harbour, Normans Bay, or Black

Tickle. There was some discussion in Williams Harbour regarding whether or not

they would want to relocate. I know there was some discussion in there in the

community, but certainly we have not to the best of my knowledge had any

overtures from Williams Harbour that they want to move. We do know, we have

heard that there was some talk in the community that they may want to move, but

I think we are only talking about how many people are talking about down in

Williams Harbour, twenty or twenty-five people maybe?

MS JONES: Less than fifty on a year-round basis.

MR. HICKEY: Yes.

Anyway, that is where we are with that. We have no plan of building a road in

there. If the community wants to come and discuss relocation if they so wish

we are not imposing it or we are not pushing it. That is certainly not where we

are going with it, but if they were to want to come and have that discussion, we

would certainly entertain it; the same with Normans Bay and the same with Black

Tickle.

MS JONES: There was discussion in Williams Harbour about relocation. The

last public meeting that I attended, shortly after that they decided not to

relocate because there was no consensus in the community. The idea, I think, has

since been taken off the table and they have just moved on with doing whatever

they need to do, which brings me to my next question. There was a budget

commitment by the government to build a new wharf in Williams Harbour, and I am

wondering if that work will still go ahead.

MR. HICKEY: On that particular point, I would have to get back to you. I

have not spoken with I think the Department of Fisheries was the proponent of

that.

MS JONES: Yes, Fisheries.

MR. HICKEY: I would have to talk with the Fisheries Minister on that and

see exactly where the department is to on it. I have not had that discussion for

some time, so we would have to get back to you on that particular one.

MS JONES: Two years in a row now we submitted a proposal to government to

introduce a subsidy on commercial power, diesel generated power, on the South

Coast and on the North Coast, only because they pay substantially higher rates

as commercial customers than anywhere else in Labrador, as you know. I think

they are up to over eighteen, almost nineteen cents a kilowatt hour. As you know

in your own riding, that would five cents a kilowatt hour.

For two years now we have been making that request. We have done a lot of

research. We have written two papers to government on it directly to the

Premier. I would like to ask what the policy is of your department, or if there

is any work being done on it to ensure that this happens. Right now, my district

in particular, I will not speak for Patty's district, but with the road

connection, in particular, we are at a very competitive disadvantage right now.

I say that because even if you look at forestry alone, you can do forestry

development in my district at nineteen cents a kilowatt hour for power. You can

drive four or five hours up the road and you can do it for five cents a kilowatt

hour. There is no rationalizing that in the corporate world. We know it is going

to be an impediment for us and we would like to know where your department

stands on that.

MR. HICKEY: Certainly, our government's policy has been clear on that. We

have said on numerous occasions and in numerous settings that we realize the

expense that people on the Coast of Labrador and in the coastal communities are

paying for power, both commercially and domestically. We did put in that first -

this was the year before last, we went and we did that 1,000 kilowatt block of

power, that main block there in which you pay now, obviously, the same rates as

Happy Valley-Goose Bay, which are the second lowest rates in the country.

Labrador City

MS JONES: Yes, that was four years ago.

MR. HICKEY: What?

MS JONES: Nearly four years ago.

MR. HICKEY: Four years, is it? Okay, time sometimes gets away from me.

Anyways, I will say this, at the time when we had that issue about the energy

plan, government made a commitment, that commitment is still there today that

upon the sanctioning of the Lower Churchill that the rates in Coastal Labrador

would be the same as those in Lake Melville.

In the North Coast of Labrador, we believe that we are seeing some light at

the end of the tunnel on electricity up in that area because Voisey's Bay Nickel

is looking to go down underground. They have done some talks on this. They will

require some fifty to fifty-five megawatts of power to go underground. Either

there are two choices they will have to make: build a line from Churchill Falls

direct to Voisey's Bay, or to develop a smaller hydro facility, for example,

Mistastin Lake up on the North Coast.

If either one of those two options happen, then obviously the logical thing

to do would be to hook in Natuashish and hook in Nain off of that power grid.

For the communities south on the North Coast - Makkovik, Postville, Hopedale and

Rigolet obviously, with the Aurora energy proposal, and should that proposal

continue into an environmental assessment and full development, they have

committed to run the power line from Happy Valley-Goose Bay to the mine site and

build the road to the North Coast to the mine site. Of course, once those two

pieces of infrastructure will be there, then it will give us the opportunity to

tie in other communities to it.

The South Coast is a little more difficult, but having said that, as I

understand it right now Nalcor is looking at a number of options for the South

Coast. One of the things that we have been in discussion with certain people on

from the private sector is the wood pellet industry and bio fuels. From people I

have talked to in the industry if we had a bio fuels generator in, let's say,

Port Hope Simpson, their electricity rates could be down to below ten cents. So,

that is something that obviously Nalcor is going to be looking at. They are

looking at some of the other smaller rivers, and they are looking at other

opportunities.

I will say this: The commitment is there that upon the sanctioning of the

Lower Churchill that your rates will come down no matter what you are doing out

there. If you are still on diesel, you will be staying at the same rates then as

we are paying in Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

MS JONES: Well, that would be pretty comforting if I knew there was going

to be a Lower Churchill deal in the next few weeks, but I have been sitting in

this House for fourteen years now listening to governments talking about the

Lower Churchill and I have not seen anybody sign a deal yet.

So, based on that, I guess I am looking for something that is going to be

much more immediate because I know that there is going to be hardship. There is

hardship there now, and I am sure on the North Coast it is the same way. When

you have small businesses that are paying out four or five times more for

electricity than people in other parts of Labrador it is not reasonable any more

and they cannot be competitive. It is unrealistic to think that they can. I

guess, from my perspective, there is so much resource development in Labrador

today that is contributing to this Province that I think if there is one thing

that we could do right now to try and make it easier for the smaller businesses

as opposed to not just the corporate sector, it would be to bring in a subsidy

like this.

One more question before I go, and that is on the Trans-Labrador Highway on

the southern end of the coast. What is the plan for the paving of that

section

of highway? I heard your comments on the radio back, I think that was probably a

year ago now. I am just wondering if there is anything new? If there are any

proposals submitted to the federal government for the paving of the highway

between Red Bay and Cartwright Junction, or Cartwright and Goose Bay?

MR. HICKEY: Well, let me be very clear. There are no plans right now to

hard surface that any time in the near future. The plan right now is to continue

on with the hard surfacing between Happy Valley-Goose Bay and Labrador West. Of

course, that is an ongoing project. I would say we are still going to be two

years yet before we see that close to completion, but we are making good gains.

This year we will spend somewhere in the vicinity of $90 million on the

Trans-Labrador Highway. We will complete that Phase III, that fifty kilometres

we pushed through last year to connect your communities to Central Labrador.

That is the priority for this year. We did speak with Minister MacKay,

obviously, when we were in Ottawa, and certainly we impressed upon him that the

Trans-Labrador Highway is a major issue in Labrador and we would expect to see

the federal government come up with 50 per cent of the cost of this particular

piece of infrastructure. So they know about it. They have - well, just a few

days ago, I guess you must have heard the announcement where we had the new

monies for the new airport terminal facility in Happy Valley-Goose Bay. I think

it was around twenty-some-odd million dollars for the project down in your

district for the Pinware

MS JONES: Around the Pinware River.

MR. HICKEY: Around about there. So they are going to participate in that

cost-shared program.

There were a couple of other things that in the yes, that is going to be

about $4 million. In your district right now, Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair, there

is to be about $10.1 million spent, of which $4 million is to realign Route 500

in the Pinware River. Provincial programs, you will see $6.1 million being

spent; $5.9 million on grading approximately thirty kilometres on Phase III of

the Cartwright Junction to Happy Valley-Goose Bay, and you will see another

$200,000 to replace the rail system at Charles River Bridge.

On the Pinware River project, $2 million of that is going to the - the

federal government is going to come up with $2 million of that. Having said

that, the plan is - always has been, it is not going to change - we are going to

finish between Happy Valley-Goose Bay and Labrador West. Then we are going to

start on the South Coast between Happy Valley-Goose Bay and Red Bay and get that

piece upgraded, because all that has to be widened to national highway

standards.

One of the things that we would like to get done sooner rather than later is

to fix those rock cuts down there in Southern Labrador. We are spending a

tremendous amount of money on those rock cuts. I think we spent $1.5 million or

close to $2 million in Chateau Pond just to try to keep them open. This year it

was not too bad but we still have issues. We have suggested to the department

that as soon as they can come up with some money for crushing some more stone on

the road, that we go down to those rock cuts and blast them out of there and use

the rock that come out of the rock cuts to crush the stone to put on the road.

So you kill two birds, as they say, with the one stone. That should, hopefully,

fix that part of the road, but having said that, there is no plan to start

paving down on that part of the coast any time soon.

MS JONES: How much is it costing to widen and pave a kilometre of road

now between Goose Bay and Lab City West?

MR. HICKEY: I used to have that figure in my head; I do not have it in my

head any more.

MS JONES: Yes, I do not remember either.

MR. HICKEY: It is a substantial amount of money, because we have to widen

it three metres to bring it to national highway standards. I will say, once it

is done it is going to be a great piece of infrastructure, but we can certainly

get you that information, or the Department of Transportation and Works would

probably be able to get it for you.

MS JONES: Yes.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you Minister Pottle for your responses. I

thank your officials for being here.

I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

MR. HICKEY: Thank you very much to the Committee members.

Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: No further questions?

We will call for the subhead.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall it carry?

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CLERK: Subheads 1.2.01 to 2.1.02 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall it carry?

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.2.01 through 2.1.02 carried.

CLERK: The total.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

On motion, Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Labrador and

Aboriginal Affairs carried without amendment?

Well, before I do, I would like to thank the ministers and their staff as

well and both parties. Our next Government Services meeting, for the Estimates

Committee anyway, will be on Monday, May 10, in the morning.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs

carried without amendment.

CHAIR: Okay, there being no further business, I will ask for a motion to

adjourn.

MR. LODER: So moved.

CHAIR: Okay, thank you very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.