VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, ~~RCH 4, 1980 NO. 3

:-tarch '1, 1980 The aou se met at 3 : 00 ?.M . Mr. Spe-aker in t:he Chai.r . MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No . 64 N~! - 1 Order, please! I have a me.ssage here and while it is somewhat belated I would like to pass it on to all hon. members. It is addressed to the Speaker and members of the Provincial Parliament, Confederation Building. "Valentine's Day is traditionally a time to express friendship and on behalf of the entire oregon Senate, both Democrats ;>nd RepUblicans, I would like to express Om:' d~epest appreciation for your country's ,valiant effort to aid our fellow Alnericans in Iran.

We could not ):lope for better neighboUX's on this particular Valentine's Day. " It is signed, "Jason Soe, President of the Oregon State senate. • SOME S:ON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: On tha1: point , i.f I may be so bold as to take the ~ime of the Rouse just £or ten or fifte en seeonds 1 there are a number of like resolutions coming f rom various s tate Legis latures that hav e come t o me1 and I do not know if ~hey have necessarily c.ome ~o you, '!our Honour, and I will check with you on that matter ani:i,if they have not, to pr esent them all at the same ~ime t .o the hon. House so all hon . members are aware of the great affection which the people below~ ;he forty-ninth paral.le .l feel about th.ose above :orty-ninth parallel . MR.

NEARY: Send them down some seal skin boots. MR . SPEAKER: Ordru : , please! 180

:;larch 4, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Belle Isle MR. ROBERTS: Tape No. 64 NM - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon. member for the Strait of Mr. Speaker, I have some questions for the Minister of Transportation and Communications,and I regret I was not able to get to him this morning to give him notice but I suspect he has anticipated the kinds of questions that I wish to ask hL~. They grow out of the incredibly bad Winter conditions on the Northern Peninsula.

If I may be allowed to, perhaps I could say that within the past twenty-four hours I have had telephone calls from just about every community in my constituency to indicate that almost everything except the telephones is not working. The telephones are working and people are calling. The common theme of the telephone calls is that the snow clearing crews and the equipment are hopelessly overburdened. I think there is a realization that the crews are doing what they can, perhaps more than they ought to be required to do. Equipment is breaking down. Communities are being cut off.

There have been several medical emergencies. we very nearly had a child come into the world on askidoo between C~ose Cove and St. Anthony last night and there are all sorts of problems that have arisen,s 0 I would simply ask the minister what steps he is taking to cope with the difficult conditions, I realize he is not to blame for the astonishing amounts of snow that have fallen but nonetheless he is 1 B 1

March 4,1980 Tape No. 65 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: in the position where he is responsible for acting to cope with these. Could he tell the House, Sir, to start with, what steps he is taking? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) and Communications. MR. BRETT: The hon. Minister of Transportation Well, Mr. Speaker, I guess I can sum it up by saying we are doing everything that we possibly can with the machinery that we have 1 plus in some places in the Province we have hired machinery outside the department 1 we have rented equipment from private entrepreneurs and from companies.

The biggest problem that we have 1 of course, is that our machines are working almost around the clock and in view of the fact that some of it is a bit old - not all of it but some of it- it just cannot stand up to the pounding that it has to take. If you work a machine for fourteen or twenty hours a day for four or five daysthen eventually the thing is going to break down. There is only one other person who can help us and unfortunately he is not on the payroll ,so we just have to hope that the sun does come out before too much longer. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hen. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I appreciate very much what the minister has said. I think part of the problem is that equipment has been pushed beyond the level of physical endurance, mechanical endurance and of course we are paying the price for the government's failure over the years to replace its equipment. But that is to late now. My question is, is the minister prepared to hire or to authorize the hiring of extra men where available, extra equipment where available~~ecause the way it now looks we can expect at 1 B 2

March 4,1980 Tape No. 65 AH-2 ~!R. ROBERTS: least a month of Winter in the Nortl:. Community after community , Sir, has not been dug out there after three, four or five days,and we are getting to the point now where nothing except snowblowe:r. s .will do. To give an example, there are two blowers in my constituency, snow blasts • and given -that there is ten to twelve feet of snow on the roads now,they are the only machinery left that can function.

A blower left Cook's Harbour at eight o'clock yesterday morning and by seven o'clock last evening it had not made - I know the minister knows the road ~ had not made it to the airport, the junction with the main highway,and 1 of course, it was filled in after as fast as it was cleared. Is the minister prepared to authorize the hiring of extra equipment and extra men to try and cope with these conditions on the short-term,immediate basis? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: That has already been done.

The district director at Deer Lake has a free hand to hire any equipment that is necessary. He just has a free hand to go to it wherever he feels it is necessary and of course where it is viable to do so. The hon. member has sort of answered his own question when he indicated that as fast as we are digging it out it is blowing in behind us,so it is almost impossible. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary , Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. member tor the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Can the minister give the House the assurance that money will not be an object, that where equipment and men are available they will be hired and put to work in an effort to catch up,to keep up,to get ahead of these conditions because what he has told 183

March 4, 198 0 Tape 66 EC - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS : the Housa is new because 1 assure him what his officials are saying to people who call him to complain - and I know ~~e officials are being pushed and stretched and tempers get frayed - what they are saying is that they are not allowed to spend any money, that they have been told not to spend, they have been told to cut back. I understand - and it is second-hand, 1 mean, 1 have no direct knowledge - that there is equipment available in place to place throughout the Province that is not being used, not being hired , on the grounds of cost.

Can the minister assure the House that money will not be the barrier, that during this period of difficulty,which is not yet an emergency but which will become one and could become one very quickly given the conditions, that money will not be an object and that he will give instructions to that end to all of his officials? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. the Minister of Transportation and communications. MR. C. BRETT: I can tell the hon. member, Sir, that money is no problem and that instructions have already been given to the officials, they were given quite some time ago. MR. NEARY: Rehire your maintenance crews.

Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Premier, Sir. The hon. the Premier has received, as I understand it, a number of communications from the various organizations and the people in Port aux Basques and around the Southwest corner of the Province protesting the provincial government's withdrawing a $25,000 annual grant that was given .to the South.west CQrner of the Province to open an industrial development office and hire an industrial development officer.

Would the hon. gentleman explain to the House why the provincial government has reneged on this agreement that was made with the Government of Canada back in 1978? MR. SPEJ\KER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: 'les, Mr. Speaker, every consideration is being given to the request from the people of Port aux Basques area for 1 8 4

March 4 1 19 60 Tape 66 EC - 2 PRE."UER PECKFORD: tne industrial development officer as it is to otner areas in tne Province for a like kind of post and I can assure tne hen. member tnat, as I say, every consideration will l:le given as we del:late internally the estimates for tne various departments and the allocation for funds for industrial development officers for Port awe Basques, Stephenville, Buchans and other areas of tne Province where demands have now been entered to the various departments • MR. NEARY: A supplementary , Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: (Simms) A supplementary, the hon. the )Dember for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: The hen. gentleman _is aware that this was a solel!IIl commitment made by the provincial government to t...'le Government of Canada that is now not l:leing honoured and that the town council will have to shut down its industrial development office ana lay off, terminate, the services of the industrial development officer unless the government reconsiders the matter ana continues with the grant beyond the end of this month.

Now when will the Premier l:le in a position to tell the people of Port awe Basques, so they will not have to take these drastic steps,that this agreement with t.'le Government of Canada will l:le honoured and that they will be able to continue to operate an industrial development office in Port aux Basques? 185

March 4, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape No, 67 SD - 1 The hon. the Premier. Two points, Mr. Speaker; number one I am aware of the particulars of the situation in the Port aux Basques - Channel area and number two, is as soon as possible. MR. D. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen.

Leader Could I ask the hen. the Premier to look up the documents concerned because I think he will discover that while I also endorse the necessity in many other communities for industrial development officers,that the situation in Port aux Basques was unique in that it was one on which there was aqreement that there was the necessity, for all manner of reasons which everyone here is familiar with , and that the arrangement was, and I do not need to 9'0 into the details now, that certain expenditures would be made elsewhere by the Federal Government on the understanding that the Port aux Basques Industrial Development Officer would be financed from the Provinci~l Treasury and on a continuing basis, not just for a limited period of time.

Would he look into that? am correct. MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: I believe he will find that I The hen. the Premier. Yes,I will, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Windsor - Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of I;.ands and Forests (Mr. c. Power) relative to his new forestry policy as it relates to his programme for combating the spruce budworm in this Province. Would the minister indicate to the House when exactly he intends to appoint the Royal Commission that he has referred to? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. 186

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 67 so - 2 MR. C. POWER: Mr. Speaker, we intend to appoint a Royal CODIIIIission as soon as possible and goverrurent is now considering persons to be appointed tp the Royal Commission. MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A suppll!llll!lntary, the bon. member Would the minister indicate to the House exactly what the terms of reference of that Royal Commission will be? Will it be specifically to look only at the budworm and its various ramifications for the Province or will it be to look at the forestry industry in general?

Would the minister indicate the terms of reference of the Committee? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. C. POKER: Mr. Speaker, the terms of reference are still in the state of being drafted. However, it is fair to say that the terms of reference will include more than just looking at chemical controls £or pests that we have in the forest. It will also look at the long term wood supply for the forest,which will include such things as management and harvesting procedures and the like. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: member for Windsor - Buchans. Hear, hear.

A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . A final supplementary, the hon. MR. G. FLIGHT: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the minister would care to tell the House what he would expect a Royal Commission - from what source would he expect new information on the spruce budworm? We have the Randell Ccilllmi ttee, we have the Medical Commission's report, we know the extent of the damage, we know the disastrous effects the budworm have had on the Province and the amount of timber that is either dead or moribund. What source of information 187

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 67 so - 3 MR. G. FLIGH"l': is left for a Royal Commission to draw on that would have the effect of helpinq the minister make up his mind whether he should spray or not spray? AH BON. !i!EMBER: MR. SPEAJOm: (Simms) Forests. A good question. 'l'he hen. Minister of Lands and 188

... l1arch 4, 1980 Tape No. 68 EL - 1 MR. C. POWER: Mr. Speaker, there are several sources of information which have been tapped as it relates to the spruce budwcrm problem,particularly the Budworm Review Committee of Memorial Univers­ ity, the Newfoundland Medical Association's report, the report of the Eastern Spruce Budworm council. The reason., primarily, that govern­ ~ent decided to set up a Royal Commission is because almost all of those reports invariably talked about the short~term effects of spraying, about short-term spray programs.

Our government, because it does not intend to deceive the public of Newfoundland into thinking that spray programs are of their nature short-term, we did not intend as a government to have a one year spray program this year, a one year spray program next year and another one year spray program after that.

We intend as a government to proceed with the dealing with the spruce budworm pro­ blem on an above-board level, making all the public of Newfoundland aware of the fact that the budworm problem·is a very serious one,which we acknowledge and admit 1and the simple fact that we want to approach the problem on a long-term problem-oriented approach as opposed to an annual decision-making process where you have to reconsider each year whether you will spray or not depending on levels of infestation.

As to where we shall get additional information, we are aware that in many parts of the United States research is now being done in many types of controls for pests, chemicals being one, bacteriological agents being another and also different harvesting techniques that we intend to consider.

We also intend, first and fore­ most1to go to all the public in Newfoundland,to make the Royal Commiss­ ion available to every single solitary resident in Newfoundland, every single concerned group in Newfoundland to allow every person and every group in Newfoundland to have input to the Royal Commission before we make our decision. MR. G. FLIGHT: A final supplementary. 189

March 4, 1980 Tape no, 68 EL - 2 ~. SPEAKER: (Simms) I indicated a final supplementary the last time,but seeing nobocy else standing, a final supplementary. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, ! have to say that most of the answers to the last supplementary were a cop-out, particularly by the minister of the government. Mr. Speaker, would the minister tell the House 1 • having just clued~ up two meetings with the major paper com­ panies,Bowaters and Abitibi Price,what their reaction is to the min­ ister's position on a no-spray program and haw. they see the Royal Commission performing in the next year or so?

Do they accept the min­ ister's position as being the solution to the budworm proclem? problem? MR. SPEAKER: (Siiilllls) MR. C. POWER:: The hon. the Minister of Forrestry Mr. Speaker, I had discussions again yesterday, a second meeting with the Price people in Grand Falls and with the union in Grand Falls. We have had discussions with the people in Corner Brook and I intend to go back to Corner Brook. on Monday to have further discussions with them.

The position of the paper companies as it relates to the government's decision to have a Royal Commission is quite simple,but that they realize that the government has the con­ trols, that the government are the persons who m~ke the final decision as it relates to that given problem. They agree and fully condone our ac­ tions that in order to have a long-term. ,viable forestry industry in Newfoundland that they have got to have decisions based upon long­ termed pro~ressions and projections in the forestry, sector and with that in mind I aD'. 190

1-larch 4, 1980 Tape No. 69 DW - 1 HR. C. POWER: sure that they fully concur with the fact that,even though they may disagree today that for the long-term benefit of the forestry industry you have got to look at spray programmes and their long-term nature. MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) MR. L. THOMS: The hon. member for Grand Bank. Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) and it is in connection ~ith the press release that was put out by the minister last Friday,~nd a position which I certainly commend the minister for. put I think the minister is a reasonable man and I think he will probably agree with me that what happened on Friday is really only touching the tip of the icebur~ as far as the administration of justice and the very serious problems which we face in this Province in connection with the administration of justice. i'.nd also in view of the fact that we have an unknown•really from a problem point of view.- an .unknown factor now with the possible influx and increase in population in this city with the coming of the offshore oil and gas 1 my question, Mr.Speaker, is to the effect - and to remember as well that I think . that my colleagues on this side of the House 1 both the Daily sews and the Evening Telegram in this city and myself have all been calling for a Royal Commission to look into the administration of justice in this Province.

I would like to know if the minister would indicate to the House whether or not he is prepared now to give an undertaking that such a Royal Commission,which I believe to be absolutely necessary and essential, would he give this House an~under­ taking that such a commission will be set up? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. 1 91

:1arch 4, 1980 Tape ~lo. 69 ow - 2 AS. G. OTTE3HE!MER: 11:. S?eaker, i...t. is ::.e t ~:. ?r~sent., ic is noc now the governmenc's incention ~o establish a Royal commission either with respect to law enforcemenc ,which is a specific area, ~r acministration of justice,which, I suppose, is a very broad area . I mean that presumably includes every­ thing for which a Department of Justice is res?onsible ,b eing corrections, law enforcement, the civ il area, prosecutions and other things as well.

I think myself that royal commissions best serve a very specific and identified problem such as, let us say, the budworm kind of problem. I am by no means sure that areas which are quite b ~oad in terms of government policy and that are particularly susceptible to royal commission. And there are a number of possib ilities. I chink ~yself that durir.q the past few years - up until quite recently; I think up until the last election- e•;ery tue 1 9 2

!-larch 4, 1980 Tape No. 70 NM - l MR. OTTENHEIMER: there was a problem, or appeared to be a problem, or somebody said there was a problem, there was a royal commission. There were royal commissions being appointed every few weeks,which can well be regarded as a way of postponing a problem, of abnegating your responsibility to make decisions,of government doing that.

So I really do not see that, with all due respect obviously to the opinion of the hen. gentleman, and even the Daily News and the Evening Telegram, I really do not feel that any specific or any strong case for a royal commission has been made and I am aware that it can be used so often to, number one, get away from one's own responsibility as a minister, or a government's responsibility as a government. It is so easy to say, "Let us set up a royal commission." It takes a royal commission at least a year to find out something and then everybody can sit back and do nothing.

I started off by saying in specific areas like the budworm, at the very beginning, this is a quite identified and specific area. If you are going to take a very large area of government policy,on the federal scene I suppose it would be something like a royal commission on Canada's external affairs or a royal commission on some broad ranging area, financial policy. And I really think that that can be an abnegation of government's responsibility, an easy way out. You put it under the rug, you keep it under wraps for a year.

And I do not really think that we handle those problems properly that way or we do justice to the electorate by substituting government by people who are accountable to the electorate for 1let us say 1 a quasi government by appointed officials, members of the judiciary, etc. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! If I might I think I should draw to the attention of all hon. members the Standing Orders as they apply to questions and answers during Oral Question period, I believe it is fair to say the last set of questions as well as the 193

:-larch .;, 1980 Tape :-lo. 70 ' NM - 2 MR. S?E.\l<ER (Simms) : answers were a bic lenqchy anc would ask :nembers co keep them as brief as possible. Grand 3ank. ~!R. OT'!'ENHEL!oiER: AN BON. ME..~E:R: MR. THOMS: A supplementary, the hon. member for Must be new rules . That is a precedent. ~~- Speaker , a supplemencary quescion. ! happen co believe that che problem of vandalism in this Province is as serious, if not more serious than the spruce budworm, with all due respect: co the bud•NOrm. I think there are very ser ious problems in the administracion of juscic e in this Province cod ay. MR . MORGAN: MR .

THC!'.S: MR. FLIGHT: !o!R. THOMS: codfish, which is what: he is :1R. SPEJ\KER: !o!R. TRO!'.S: ~!R. NEARY: MR. SPEA!<ER: What is yo ur question? Now if the Miniscer of Fisheries - f!e talks like a fis!'l . That is right, •.rould quit acting like a Ord~r, please! - chen maybe I will ask the question. He looks more lJ.ke a sculpen. Order, please! r: che bon. member has a question I ~~uld direct him to ask it. MR. THOMS: There are some very, very serious problems , is what: ! am saying. Now the Miniscer of Jusl:ice has indicated .:hat he is not prepared 1 9 4

March 4, 1980 Tape 7l EC - l MR. L. THOMS: to appoint a Royal Commission to look into this. My question is - AN HON. MEMBE.R: (Inaudible). MR. L. THOMS: I will hang you from a spruce budwor.m. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. L. THOMS: My question is t.'"lis, Wnat does the minister plan to do? What does he plan to substitute for a Royal Commission? You know, the Friday's announcement was fine as far as it went but it can only solve an immediate problem. What are your plans? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr .

Speaker, certainly there are a number of areas where we plan to take initiatives; in that statement, itself, a co-ordinating committee on law enforcement; we are also planning to announce within the ne!Xt several weeks a Law Reform Commission. The hon. gentleman referred to vandalism as a problem, and obviously it is. The municipality of St. John's currently is having a study on it and we will obviously be looking forward to what they find. I would point out - t.'le hon. member said, you know, What specifically is the department planning to do? Obviously, specific areas require specific approaches.

You know, there are a nwnber of areas, obviously there are a number of problems. Let me give the hon . member one example. One problem is that of violence in the family or what is sometimes called battered wives, battered women. The Department of Justice, in co-operation with the Status of Women Council and in co-operation with the Department of Social Services, has been meeting for the past couple of 100nths or so to prepare a conference which will bring in people from all over the Province dealing with that specific problem. We are not going to have a Royal Commission on it. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

G. OTTENHEIMER: We are going to have a conference involving the people, not just three or four or five commissioners who go around. 195

March 4, 1980 Tape 71 EC - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: This has been a co-operative effort with two departments of government, Justice and Social Services, and - MR. L. STIRLING: (Inaudible) • MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: - if the hon. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) will allow me. I do not interrupt him when he is speaking. So in this area we are having a conference in which not only government but a quite broad range of people with specific interests and knowledge in this area will be involved.

And I think it is by taking a specific problem and getting a specific solution to it rather than the blanket approach in a very broad area - it is not like the budworm which is an identifiable problem - that I think that is the better way to go. Now I am not saying by any means that such a similar conference on problems of vandalism would not be very useful, but I do not want to prejudge that until we see what work comes out of one being done at the municipal level of government, see what the outcome of that is before endeavouring to duplicate or make a decision in that area.

But I give the hon. member a specific example of the kind of approach we are taking with respect to that problem of violence in the family. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. The hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr . F. Rowe), unless he wishes to yield to a supplementary. MR. F. ROWE: I yield. ML~. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Lapoile. MR. NEARY: I just want to ask the minister a brief supplementary, Sir. Obviously the minister is making an attempt to clean up the mess he inherited from his predecessor.

I would like to ask the minister if it is still the practice in the Department of Justice 196

:~arch 4, 1980 Tape No. 72 DW - l MR. S. NEARY: to have certain cases, certain files kept confidential,under lock and key, only to be dis­ cussed with the minister? Is this practice still in effect? And what about all of the unfinished business, unfinished .,__ cases in the Department of Justice~Are they ongoing~ have they been clued up? What has the minister done about the mess he inherited in that regard? MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I would be unfair to my predecessor,who now holds such an illustrious position on the bench,if I were to agree that I inherited a mess so I must make that comment. I am not aware that there any files which are there for the minister only. There are no files th~t I am aware of - well, I am quite sure I would be aware if there were because they would pertain to me. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. OTTENHEIMER: You see my powers of reasoning. However, practically all of the files,or very many of the files are confidential in that they are only available to solicitors working on a specific case. !UL S.

NEARY: (Inaudible) only for the yees of the minister . MR. OTTENHEIMER~ Certainly since I have been there - July or Augus t, early August or late July whenever it was~here are no such files 'only for the minister'. I am not aware that it was ever the practice. I know it is not now .. To the best of my knowledge it never was ,but there are certainli no such files now marked or anybody given any instructions that these files are only for the minister. No, there is certainly no such practice. I am not aware that it was before. There certainly is not now. 197

!-larch 4, 1980 Tape No. 72 ow - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: And with respect to the hen. gentleman's second ~uestion,it was very broad ranging and probably if there is a question on the Order Paper or specific ones at some later date-- MR. S. NEARY: MR. OTTENHEIMER: (inaudible) to clean up the mess? ~ell, as I say that is like, 'When did you beat your wife l~st?' 'Especially bearing in mind the conference which I just announced,! would not risk being a prime target. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. E'. :itOI~t:: I have questions, Mr.

Speaker, but With one minute left I cannot see any necessity ~ AN liON. MEMBER: MR. F. ROWE: 1-lo, go ahead. Okay, all r~ght. Sir, my question arises out of 198 ./

March 4,1980 Tape No. 73 AH-1 MR. F.ROWE: the Ministerial Statement made by the Minister of Fisheries yesterday. I would like to personally apologize to the minister for being absent and not witnessing the eloquence of his delivery on that particular Ministerial Statement. MR. ROBERTS: MR. F.ROWE: It was a once in a lifetime day. The minister, Sir, did indicate that there were sixty-seven loans approved and worth about $1.9 million.

Could the minister indicate to the House, Sir, exactly how many loans or applications have been rejected outright and how many applications are still under oonsideration­ I guess I will not get a chance for a supplementary - and if the minister could indicate how much funds are left or still available the Fisheries Loan Board as it how exists and what is the status of the negotiations with the chartered banks for possible functional relationships between the Fisheries Loan Board and the chartered banks? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fishexies . Mr.

Speaker, with less than a minute to go what I would like to do is take the question on notice and supply the information tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: expired. MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, pursuant to

Section 3 of

Section 28, the Financial Administration Act, I wish to table this special warrant dated February 19th. And, Mr. Speaker, whilst I am on my feet I would also like to table the report to the Auditor General for the financial year ending March 199

March 4,1980 Tape No. 7 3 AH-2 DR. COLLINS: 31,1979 and,also pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, Public Accounts for the year ending March 31,1979. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order 1. Address in Reply. The han. member for LaPoile. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 200

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 74 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) is well known in this House, and in this ?rovince, for his narrowmindedness and for his hatred for anything that is Liberal, or anything that is associated with Liberalism, either in Newfoundland or in Canada. But yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member topped everything that we have heard from that hon. gentleman in this House so far. My colleague, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, made an excellent speech in which he dwelt at some length on the problems of the offshore resources, the ownership, the management, jurisdiction, and the development of offshore resources, and in so doing my hon. friend went to great pains to resist the temptation to introduce partisan politics into the debate. My hon. colleague went to great pains to keep politics out of the offshore question and asked a number of questions of the Premier and his administration concerning offshore resources and offshore development.

In responding to my hon. colleague, the President of the Council, the Government House Leader, a minister in the government who is obviously speaking for the government, scolded my hon. colleague for daring to question some of the government's decisions and some of the government policies in connection with the offshore activities and in so doing, Mr. Speaker, I would submit to this House that the debate sunk to a very low level after my hon . colleague, on a very high plain, on behalf of the people of th is Province, tried to get some answers from the government.

Instead of allo wing the member for Conception Bay South (Mr.Butt) to make his maiden speech in the Throne'Speech debate, when he ~a~ outside the member for St. John's East jumped to his feet and scolded my hon. friend. The government spokesman, Sir, the member for St. John's East, with his buttoned down mind, and in a nasty manner, tried to leave the impression that 201

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 74 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: anyone but anyone in this world who did not go along with the government's foolish nonsense and the government's crazy policy and position on these matters would be a traitor to Newfoundland. What a joke, Mr. Speaker. From what we heard from the hen. gentleman's lips yesterday, and from his colleague, the Premier, obviously the two gentlemen disagree amongst themselves as to what policy this Province should be following with regard to offshore jurisdiction. And the member dragged in a red herring, Sir, the likes of which we have never heard in this hen.

House before, and told us that we should, the Government of Canada should follow a precedent, should follow a decision made by the Parliament of canada when they passed

an act to grant Manitoba an extension to their boundary. Mr. Speaker, I checked this morning with two constitutional experts in Canada, one of whom is a Newfoundlander, Senator Eugene Forsey - MR. BARRY: He is not a lawyer. MR. NEARY: No, he is not a lawyer, he is a constitutional expert. But I also checked, in case the hen. gentleman is int~rested, I wanted a second opinion and I checked with one of the top constitutional lawyers in the whole of Canada - MR . BARRY: MR. ~RY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: Me. - namely Professor oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker, the hen. gentleman says •me.' well 1I have news for the hen. gentleman. The hen. gentleman has been muzzled by the Premier and is not allowed to make a statement on the offshore, has become depressed and disillusioned over the attitude of the Premier,who has suddenly become a great dictator, who wants to run every government department, who will not let the Minister of Mines and Energy make a statement - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 202

!-'.arch 4, 1980 Tape No. 74 Nt-1 - 3 !o!R. :-lEARY : - unless it is cleared :::hrough c.he Premier's Office . And the hon . gentleman would have been better off teaching law over at oalhousie Oniversi~ . But the gentleman I checked with has a little more knowledge . The gentleman has a little more knowledge than th e bon . gentleman in constitutional matters, Professor Scott, who happens to bead up - MR. BARRY: Who? MR. NEARY: Professor Scott - MR. BARRY: Is he that centralise young (inaudible)? MR .

NEARY: The professor who heads up the law department of McGill University, who I would consider :::o be no slouch . ·'"d in both instances, 1<!1". Spe .aker, I am told by these learned gentle.'!len chat my hon. friend, c.he me:nbe.r for st. John's East (~tr . Marshall.) ,technically speaking by the way, is correct. But - ;ui !!ON. MEMBER: '!oung Scot1: is good is he? MR. NEARY: But, Mr. Speaker, what the bon. membez; is suggesting is unrealistic and impractical.. 203

~larch 4, 1980 Tape No. 75 ow - 1 AN HON. MEMBER: Certainly,because it is correct. MR. S. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, because there are various and sundry reasons why it cannot be done . But in the first place let me say to the hon. member that if that is the course of action that the government wanted to take, they should have taken that action when Mr. Clark was up in Ottawa, brought

an act into this House and had

an act brought into the Parliament of Canada. But this government did not elect to do it. MR. BARRY: We were working on it. MR. S. NEARY : They were working on it but they did not do it. And they had two chances to do it, they had two sessions of the House in which they could have done it, concurrent acts 1 one here and one in Ottawa. MR. W. MARSHALL: And get confirmation from a Liberal Senate? M.R. S . NEARY : And they d~d not do it, Mr. Speaker, because it is impractical and it is nonsensical and it is unrealistic. And we want, Mr.

Speaker, let me say for the benefit of the hon. gentleman who likes to meet candidates and insult candidates and stack the cards at meet-your-candidate meetings, let me say for the benefit of that hon. gentleman that we on this side of the House want Hewfoundland and Newfoundlanders to get 100 9er cent of the revenues from the offshore development. MR. THOMS: And the jobs. MR. S. NEARY: And the jobs. So, Mr.

Speaker, the fact that the government did not bring in a piece of legislation in this House and request the Government of Canada to dG the same in Ottawa is because they felt it was unrealistic and impractical and impossible to work. 204

~!arch 4, 1980 Tape No. 75 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, do you know what it would bring into focus? It would bring into focus inter- national law. First of all what the member is saying is let us extend Newfoundland's boundaries out beyond the 200 mile limit, out to the Grand Banks. MR. BARRY: Nonsense. MR. S. NE.Z\RY: Now that is what the gentleman is saying, 'Give us the ownership,' and w·it.h the owner- ship goes navigation, goes the control of the fishery, goes the control of even the buoys that go in the water, environ- ment - MR. BARRY: (inaudible) seabed of Bell Island. c• t•!R. S.

NEARY: That was an Imperial act. Bell Island was developed under an Imperial act which is a different thing altogether. MR. BARRY: ~hy,do we not have as much power in Canada as they have in the United Kingdom? MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would subm~t to Your Honour that I do not intend to waste too much time on this particular piece of nonsense that flowed from the lips of the hon. gentleman because the hen. member knows it is impractical,otherwise the government would have done it, MR. STAGG: Let us hear the Government House Leader on it. ~!R.

S . !lEARY: The government would have done it while they had the opportunity while Mr. Clark was up in Ottawa,but the Government of Canada, Sir, no matter which government is up there wouid not be foolish enough to bring in that kind of

an act. The best chance that we have is for whatever government is in Ottawa to define certain responsi- bilities offshore. That is the best chance we have! And I really believe .myself, Mr. Speaker, the way the Premier behaved on opening day in this House when he was speaking on the television to the peopie of this Province 1when he was 205

!·larch 4, 1980 Tape No. 75 DW - 3 HR. S. NEARY: when he was behaving like a desperate man, wild-eyed and fanatical,when he was waving his arms like a madman,that that wa~ the sign of a desperate man. The gentleman obviously has the gun put to his head by the oil companies. The oil companies are saying to the Premier and to the administration of this Province, 'You procrastinated long enough and we can wait no longer; we can wait no longer to proceed with the offshore developments,especially to get into production!.

Now you have to make up your mind 1 and they procrastinated so long and they have.made such a horrible mess of handling the offshore jurisidiction, or ownersh~p or management~ whatever you want to call itr they dilly­ dallied and they have made such a horrible mess of it that now it is almost too late.There is only a few weeks - this government - there is only a few weeks left- MR. BARRY: :1R. S. NEARY: The best regulations in the world. Mr. S~eaker, I would like to remind the hon. gentleman that all the administration had to do when they took over in 1972 was to build on what the Liberals had already done. MR.

BARRY: MR. S. NEARY: You would not know, Mr. Speaker, - You qave it away: Ah, Mr. Speakeri listen to this. Just like the Upper Churchill,which the member referred to yesterday in his speech. And I have here a speech in front of me given by Jim Greene when he was Leader of the Opposition back in 1963, I think it was, when the development of the Upper Churchill was brought into this House and hon. members should go and read Mr. Greene's speech,who was 206

Marcil 4, 1980 Tape 76 EC - 1 MR. S • NEARY : then Leader of the Opposition 1and see what he says about the development of the Upper Churchill. Did that great Tory,who is now working for- MR. BARRY : MR. S. NEARY : What has that to do with the offshore? It has to do with offshore. The hon. gentieman just reminded me of something the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) said yesterday. MR. D. JAMIESON: He had nothing to do yesterday, either. MR. S. NEARY: 'Of course, I support the bill,' he said, 'with some reservations.' And then he said, 'I feel, Mr.

Speaker, that this bill has or can have a great deal of significance for Newfoundland in terms of the amount of employment and it would give our people who are right now having a rough time of it trying to find a job on the Mainland. And a great many of them have come to look to this great Northern Peninsula for their future.' And he goes on and on; it would be worth reading. But what I started out to say, Sir, was that it was a Liberal Government that issued the first permit and inv ited the oil companies to come here to this Province to look for oil and gas offshore. And members sometimes forget that, Sir.

It was a Liberal Government, Mr. Speaker, that brought SEDCO I into Newfoundland. MR. L. BARRY: preference. MR. S . NEARY : local preference'! MR. L. BARRY : interest. MR. S. NEARY : You did not have any local Oh, Mr. Speaker, 'we did not have any You did not have any 40 per cent The hon. gentleman should go back and read the speeches that were made in the House at that time when,for the first time in Newfoundland's history, drilling started offshore for gas and oil. That was done by a Liberal Government. And now, Mr.

Speaker, to hear the hen. members talk from the other side, you would not know but the Al::n.i.ghty was a Tory. You would not know but the Almighty put the 207

Marc:.'t 4, 1980 Tape 76 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY: resources there for the Tories and not for the people of this Province. Mr. Speaker, if the Premier and his administration try to bluff the people of this Province and they get caught in the ridiculous process, then they should not look to any responsible Newfoundlander to support them and bail them out and to aid and abet them by agreeing with their position, their position being one of confrontation and arm waving and behaving like madmen. The Premier of this Province, Mr.

Speaker, cannot call a news conference every Friday and wave his arms and look wild-eyed and fanatical - AN HON. MEMBER: And bushy-tailed. MR. S. NEARY: - and busy-tailed, and attack everyone from here to British Columbia and then expect every soul in Newfoundland to go along with him, to go along with everything he says. We would be just as politically dishonest, Mr. Speaker, and intellectually dishonest and deceitful ilS the hon. genUeman if we follow that procedure.

So what we have to do , Sir, in this House, is to try to separate the logic and the common sense from the foolishness and the ridiculous remarks that are made by the Premier at these news conferences that are lapped up by the news media in this Province 1who do not have sense enough to ask the right questions, who just take for granted everything that is passed to them .and go back week after week and have it hashed and rehashed. Everyone on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, is just as good a Newfoundlander as the hon. the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) or the Premier of this Province.

SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: And everyone on this side of the House, Sir, wants Newfoundland to get all it can from a commercial oil discovery. As I say ,it was the Liberals who brought the oil companies to Newfoundland in the fi.rst place and SEDCO I into Newfoundland waters back in 1971. And, Mr. Speaker, since that time we have had eight or ten years of procrastination, of neglect, of cheap political game playing, attacking everyone from here to British Columbia and back again, and we are no further ahead, Sir, when it comes to coping with the impact or the 208

March 4, 1980 Tape 76 EC - 3 MR. s. NEARY: development of a commercial oil find than we were eiqbt ye~s ago. '!hat is what the goVEU:"m~~ent is txying to cover up ~d distract from. They have no plan. There is no master plan to cope with a co~rcial oil discoveey off our coast. There a:re no plans to protect the environment and protect the fishery and the other naturale resources and raping the good people f:tom the other industries in thi;s Pmvince. There are no plans to protect the senior citizens and the people on low and f.ixed incomes.

The government have put all their eqgs in one basket and all they want to do is come out fighting, put on the boxing gloves.. E!ien before the Prime Minister is sworn in up in Ottawa., the Premier of this Province has the boxing gloves on ready to take on eve-rybody. 209

March 4,1980 Tape No. 77 AH-1 MR. NEARY: What we need now, Sir, we need a firm hand, a mature hand on the tiller, We need a man who is mature and who can carry out these matters in a calm and quiet ~tmosphere and not a fanatical madman waving his arms, frightening everybody to death, everybody afraid there is going to be a nervous breakdown or somebody is going to have a stroke in front of the television cameras. That is no way to behave. So we have had all these years of neglect, Sir, and the government has bluffed its way so far and the people are getting wise.

The people are getting wise to this bluffinq and that was proven on February 18th. So I would submit, Sir, that we have reached a critical stage, we have reached a critical stage and we can procrastinate no longer. Somebody mentioned. to me today about making announcements. Who makes the announcements on the developments offshore, whether there is going to be another rig o~ whether there has been a strike o~ whether there is a wildcat well?These announce .ments are made out in British Columbia for purposes of playing the stock: market. They are not made by this government here, by this Province .. AN HON.

MEMBER: Are you reading that speech? MR. NEARY: No, I am not reading it, Sir. I never read a speech in this House. I have a few notes in front of me because this is a very important subject. We are on the brink of making decisions that could affect the whole future of this Province. And, I think, Mr. Speaker, that it is time now that the Premier and the administration settle down, get rid of these separatist. senior advisors and ministers - may I include the hen. member who spoke yesterday who has all the tendencies of a separatist? - settle down - MR. F.ROWE: He has not changed. MR.

NEARY: - settle down and deal with this 210

March 4,1980 Tape No. 77 AH-2 MR. NEARY: matter in a mature way, in a mature manner, in a calm 1 quietatmosphere,otherwise, Sir, we will all be the losers in this Province. So I hope the next time the han. gentleman gets up and rants and raves and accuses people of being traitors to Newfoundland and not good Newfoundlanders,thatthe hon. gentleman will bear in mind that we cannot, nobody in his right mind could go along with all the things that are said by the Premier at these news conferences every time that somebody sticks a microphone in front of his face. He should follow his own advice.

He silenced the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) who is not allowed to make any more statements without having them cleared through the Premier's office. He should follow his own advice and not yield to temptation every time a microphone is stuck in front of him and attack people that he may have to negotiate with around the bargaining table tomorrow or the.next day. So, Mr. Speaker, just to reiterate again 1 everybody on this side of the House, everybody but everybody believes that Newfoundland should get one hundred.per cent- MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! The han. member's time has expired.

Does he have leave to clue up? MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not have leave. I thank the han. gentleman,but I do not need leave. I have said what I have to say, Sir. I know it will fall on deaf ears. I know the han. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) will get up again and anything connected with Liberalism or with Smallwood, he is such a skinful of hatred, that he will squirt his poison again and the Premier will still rant and rave and still con the media of this Province. But I think in the end , Sir, it will all work out. It will 211

March 4,1980 MR . NEARY: heads will only prevail. Tape NO. 77 AH -3 all work out in the end if cool If the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and the han.

Minister of Finance (Dr. ~ollins) could only just tone the 'Premier down a bit, stop him from waving his arms and stop hi~ from looking like a walking nervous breakdown, settle him down and follow the advice my hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition gave yesterday: Set up a Select Committee -the government obviously are incapable of coping with this situation- set up a Selec'(; Committee comprising of elected members on both sides of the House and let us roll up our sleeves and hammer out a master plan for the development of · the offshore as quickly as possible before it ist~o late. SOME HO~. MEMBERS: MR.

SPEAKER: (Simms) SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.J.BOTT: Hear, hear: Ron. member for Conception say south. Hear, hear: Mr. Speaker, once again I feel it is a privilege and an honour ~o stand in this hon. House to 21 2

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 78 SD - 1 MR. J. BUTT: speak on behalf of my district, Conception Bay South. This is an opportune time for me to express my appreciation to those people who voted for change, people who voted for a new direction and gave me a vote of confidence on June 18th. SOME RON. MEMBERS : AN RONl. MEMBER: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. J. BUTT: Hear, hear. :Right on. Author, author! I was very happy to have a good campaign crew and they certainly made my victory possible. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. J • BUTT : Mr. Speaker, I would like to welcome to this hon.

House our newest member, a tremendous Tory from Burqeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. H. Andrews) - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. J. BUTT: - who went into that district and busted through the traditional Liberal barriers and came out with a great victory not only for himself but for the PC Party. MR. 1". STAGG: SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. 1" , STAGG : MR. J. BUTT: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. J. BUTT: SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. J. BUTT: :Right on. Hear, hear. Well done. Mr. Spe;!J.ker, - (Inaudible) St. Mary's - The Capes. - before I unfold - Oh!

Oh! -a number of legitimate,ganuine and essential needs of my district,I would like to make a brief comment on this Throne Speech. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Bear, hear. MR. J. BUTT: This document has been referred to as philosophical, inadequate, dealing with motherhood issues and 21 3

Marcy 4, 1980 Tape No. 78 so - 2 MR. J. BUTT: so on and so on. MR. E. ROBERTS : I agree. MR; J • BO'l"r : Well, Mr. Speaker, to me that document says we are going to have to deal with monumental problems . that we inherited from short-sighted people. It is a document that says we are going to have to stand up for the Churchill Falls power contract. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. F' • S'l'AGG : MR. J. BC'l"l': Right. Stand up for Newfoundland. It is one that says we want control over our res~es, it is a document that says we want an identtty. MR. !' • S'l'AGG : OUtlaw the Opposition. MR . J.

BO'l'T : It is one that says we want to share with our neighbours and contribute to our country. It is one that says we do not want to sell this Province down the drain - SOME EII!IN. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. J • BC'l"l' : - because this Province was sold down the drain all too often.in the past. MR. F. STAGG: Yes, yes. 1949. MR. J. BU'l"l' : I would like to think I am a charitable man. I give to almost any charitable organization which approaches me - MR. !'. STAGG : They need it over there. MR. J.

BC'l"l' : - whether it is the Boy Scouts or the Girl Guides, minor hockey, figure skating or what have you.Btlt when it comes to this Province I think we have given enough and it is time that we stand up and be counted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR . J. BOTT: We have been exp ·1oited and ripped off for centuries. I consider the Speech from the Throne to be a courageous one. I think it is a reflection on the 21 4

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 78 SD - 3 MR. J. BU'l"l': kind of man that we have leading us through this very critical era in our history. As the hon. member from LaPolla (Mr. s. Neary) just said, I think that gentleman has tremendous ability and is doing yeoman service for this Province. And I would like to go on record as saying, if I JU.Y coin an old Newfoundland expression, to the hon. the Premier, 'long may his big jib draw.' MR. F. STAGG: SOME HoM. MEMBERS : Right on. Hear, hear. MR. J. BO'l"l' : Mr. Speaker, I represent the urban and rural district of Conception Bay South.

That encompasses Seal COve , the Town of Conception Bay South, St. Philips , St. Thomas, Paradise, going into St. John's on Tharborn Road, :tenmount Road, and part of Blac~arsh Road. AN HON. MEMBER: That is my district. MR. J. BUTT: Yes. It is a very large district . As a matter of fact,it is about two and one half times the size of the average district like,say,the- I have about two and one half times as many people as the hon. gentleman opposite from Bonavista North (Mr. L. Stirling) or the hon. gentleman from Fogo (Mr. B. TUlk) or possibly the hon. gentleman from St. Mary's- The Capes (Mr. D. Hancock). MR. F.

STAGG: You could out vote about a half a dozen of those by yourself. MR. J. BU'l"l' : So, with this kind of population that I have to represent,! have a number of legitimate needs. !4'f district is probably the fastest growing district in the Province also,and that in itself is compounding existing problems. So, Mr. Speaker, it is 21 5

~arch 4, 1980 Tape No.79 EL - 1 MR. J. BUTT: imperative that this government recognize the urgency that I express now in moving quickly in providing basic and essential services like water and sewerage, up-grading and widening of roads, which are totally inadequate at the time, so our community can grow in an organized man­ ner. ~r.

Speaker, I would like to address this honorable House on the potential and the inadequacies in the fisheries in Conception Bay South. conception Bay South has approximately ninety full and part-time fishermen, and I can say without fear of con­ tradiction that they have the worst, they are operating under the worst possible conditions in this province. Just let me, for a moment,compare the South side of Conception Bay to the NQrth side; you know, we are basically talking about the same body of water. Well, on the North side the coastline is dotted with fish plants and all kinds of nice wharves and so on.

Now I compliment them on that, They ~":ve good representation over the years, I would say,on that side of the bay and they have really dug in and they got thi~gs for their district. Well, Sir, on the ~outh side of the bay from Seal Cove to Cape St. Francis, there is just one totally inadequate community stage or ~all plant­ certainly you could not classify it as a fish plant. From Seal Cove to Cape St. Francis the entire length of the south shore of Conception Bay. The plant in Foxtrap in its present state is absolutely and totally inadequate.

The fishermen are still land­ ing fish on the wharf in five-gallon buckets. ,That is a fact-in five­ gallon buckets. It is a bloody mess, it is shameful and something has to be done about it. These people cannot continue to operate in this manner. They are using the same methods as their forefathers did two hundred years ago. Now, that is a fact. But I am encouraged by the fact that I had a meeting just yesterday with fifty fishermen in the area 1 accompan­ ied by my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries (J.Morgan) where we had 216

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 79 EL - 2 MR. J. BUTT: frank and open discussions with the fishermen , listened to their problems at first hand. It was a first for the area. I am not joking. That is a fact. I have checked back and I cannot find out when the Minister of Fisheries went out and held a meeting with the fishermen, trict,so I am going way back twenty years ago in that dis­ it never happened there before. But now there is some hope. There are hopes of getting - 1\N. HCN. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. J. BUTT: I will ask the hon. gentle~4n to let me finish in silence, please. Okay?

These people, I honestly believe right now, are going to have a new lease on . life. We are taking steps to get the plant upgraded and to provide facilities for them for their boats and so on. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. J. BUTT; Conception Bay South also has trem- endous potential as a farming area, but these people are in dire need of storage facil~ties and they need more land made available for them to reap the full benefit . Those farmers also require assistance in market- ing if they are going to develop the agricultural potential to its full potential. Mr.

Speaker, as I stated previously, my district is more than twice the size of the average district in this province. These people require recreational facilities also. At the present time, there is not one single regulation size softball field in Conception Bay South, not one single regulation size soccer pitch in Conception Bay South. Now, that is hard to believe, but that is a fact. There is a minor league softball field out there and there is a minor league soccer field for the twenty-odd thousand people that are out there. 21 7

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 80 NM - 1 MR. BUTT: Now, Mr. Speaker, the popular misconception is that when it comes to recreation for that area, "Oh well, st. John's is just next door and these people have all kinds of facilities." And I congratulate them on it. But a socceer field, or a softball diamond in St. John's is about as much use to the men, women and children in Conception Bay South as the socceer fields and the softball pitches in Corner Brook. That is a fact. Absolutely no good to them at all. Now, Mr. Speaker, I think we have demonstrated that we are capable of managing recreational facilities.

We did get a break a few years ago and had a stadium erected in Kelligrews and that stadium is probably the biggest success story as far as stadiums go in this Province. Every year we have managed to make a profit. This past year I think we realized a profit of about $30,000 and I really think that that says something for the people in Conception Bay South. MR. N. WINDSOR: MR. BUTT: han. friend agrees with me. MR. N. WINDSOR: MR. BUTT: It certainly does. It certainly does. I am glad my It is the only one that I know of. Right. It is probably the only one.

It is too bad my hon. friend, the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture is not here.

I would like to go on record to say that when I go to my han. friend here with a feasible proposal for a swimming pool,well then I hope he will judge it on its own merits and not on the bad success stories of the swimming pools around this Province.- which continually come back to the government, the same as the stadiums, every year wanting to be bailed out because the homework was not done in the beginning and they went in places where the population was not there to support them, they never had the financial base to support them and now they become a drag on the taxpayers outside of their own communities. 218

Ylarch 4, 1980 Tape No. 80 NM - 2 MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaker, one of the pet topics of discussion in this House is roads,and rightfully so. I know that most han. members have problems with roads, particularly in the rural areas. But rather than go into great detail with the hundreds of miles of roads in my area,I have taken the opportunity to submit a list to my han. friend the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) and I certainly hope that over the next couple of years that these roads will certainly get serious consideration, and something be done with tha~.

But there is one road in Conception Bay South that is vital, absolutely essential and that is the arterial road from Manuels Bridge to the Trans-canada Highway. Topsail Road, as everybody here knows, all han. members, I would imagine,are familiar with the Topsail area; it is a scenic place to go in the Summertime. It is a nice drive out there and that is compounding problems also. But Topsail Road is probably one of the main arteries in this Province and I understand, doing a little bit of research, I understand there are 8,000 cars that travel over Topsail Road every morning.

That is in my district now. 8,000 cars. I am telling you it is not a very good feeling to get out of bed in Manuels and think about driving to st. John's at eight o'clock in the morning. You drive down the road about one mile and then you hit the traffic and you get in miles and miles of traffic that moves at a snail's pace, and when you get to your office or place of employment in St. John's you are frustrated. The best hours of your day, the productive hours certainly of my day are early in the morning and they are lost through frustration of being tied up in traffic. That is a fact,,Mr. Speaker.

So once again I say this arterial road from Manuels Bridge to the Trans-canada Highway is 4.8 miles. It was surveyed and cut out about five or six years ago, now it is 219

March 4, 1980 Tape 81 EC - 1 MR. J. BUTT: starting to grow up again. Well,, _ Reaven fo:z:bid • I certainly hope it does not. That road is the key, is the most important item that I can mention here in this House today relating to my district, the road from Manuels Bridge to the Trans-Canada Highway. MR. W. MARSHALL: Which side of Manuels Bridge? MR. J. 30'l'T : Well, as you know, the new bridge that was constructed in Manuels back five years ago - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. J. BUTT: Yes, the Tory administration. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. J.

BUTT: Well, it is 4. 8 miles from that bridge to the Trans-canada Highway. There were two houses obstructing the right­ of-way and those two houses were bought, I understand, or certainly there was an agreement between the government of that time and the people to sell the houses to make room for this road to go through, to clear away. MR. W~HALL: MR. J. BUTT: MR. W • MARSHALL : St. John's? MR. J. BUTT: there straight up. MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : (Inaudible) seven years. Pardon? (Inaudible) on the side away from No, f+om the St. John's side- from Tell him where Manuels is first. Oh, oh! MR. J.

BUTT: I am sure the hon. gentleman knows where Manuels is. MR. W. MARSHALL : AN HON. MEMBER: M..'<.. J. 3l.iTT: Never mind now, I am a landowner in ~anueJs. He is a taxpayer in Manuels. Yes. Well, it is just 4.8 miles of road anyway, and I understand from talking to some of the officials in the Department of Highways that this road is going to cost somewhere in the 220 ·'

March 4, 1980 Tape 81 EC - 2 MR. J. BUTT: vicinity of ~5 million. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. BUTT: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think that we must begin now to do that road. We cannot wait another five years or four years. MR. CARTER: It connects with the Harbour Arterial. MR. J. BUTT: That is right. So I can leave my home and drive to Water Street in about probably ten minutes with the completion of that road.

But it is not only the people in Conception Bay South; I am speaking on behalf of my hon. friend here right now,who is quite capable, I know, of doing it himself, but people in Holyrood, they all come up the South Shore and they like the view in the morning -it makes them feel good, the sunny South, coming to work in the morning; they do· not like to use the Trans-Canada Highway. Anyway it is about SS million to complete that road and, Sir, I think it is vital that we get on with the job right now and I do not think we can wait another five years or two y.ears ; I think we have to start now.

SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. J. BUTT: I would like to now speak briefly on the potential of Long Pond as an auxiliary port. I have heard many, many places mentioned and Long Pond has had very little ink on th~s, but Long Pond, because of its location alone, has tremendous po~ential as an auxiliary port. Unlike the harbour of St. John's, there is adequate room available for warehousing and whatever else goes along with a seaport - all kinds of land available in Long Pond. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. J.

BU'I'T: It has a tremendous advantage over many of the other areas that I have heard mentioned around this hen. House. Now with the completion of this arterial road from - I am looking at ~~is very objectively - but with ~~e completion 221

~!ar c:~ 4 , 19 80 Tape Bl EC - 3 l'ffi . J . BUTT : o f thi s arte rial road f r om Manuels Bridge to the Trans-canada Highway, well, Long Pond is about ten minutes from the Industrial Park, so it 'is an obvious place to think about when you think about an auxili~ port to st. John's. MR. N. WINDSOR: Never thought about it before. MR. J. BO'l".r': My hon. friend agrees with !Ilea that is good. I am happy to near that. The develop!llent of Long POnd would have a tremendous impact on Conception Bay South, which in itself, by the way, is the third larqe.st commlmi.ty in b!'ewfoun.cUand..

A popular misconception is that it may be Gander or Grand Falls, but indeed it is not, it is Conception B4Y south. Nolo~, Grand Falls has its paper lilill and Gander has -its airport and 222

.. .:. March 4, 1980, Tape 82, Page 1 -- apb MR. BUTT: Corner Brook its great paper mill, so this third largest community in Conception Bay South, if it had the auxiliary port of Long Pond, it would certainly give the community a good economic base. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have spoken on the potential of the fishery in Conception Bay South, the potential of Long Pond as an auxiliary port. Conception Bay South has tremendous potential in agriculture. It is barely touched. The beauty of Conception Bay itself makes gives it tremendous potential as a tourist area. SOf.!E HON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER(Baird): Order, please! MR. BUTT: But the greatest potential ·in Conception Bay South is its people. We must never lose sight of that fact. Mr. Speaker, just yesterday it was my privilege to proclaim Education Week in St. George's School in Long Pond, St. George's Elementary School 1where I addressed 380 children. And I could not help but realize the tremendous responsibility we owe to these youngsters, the tremendous responsibility that we owe to these young Newfoundlanders. We must certainly assure them a suitable education in this Province.

They must be trained well to take advantage of the tremendous and abundant resources that we have here. We must stop the exodus of our greatest resource, our young Newfoundlanders. We cannot afford to export our greatest wealth, we must keep them home. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle Ri ver. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 223

March 4, 1980, Tape 82, Page 2 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: I first would like to compliment the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt). Being the district I grew up in I know it quite well and very intimately and I would like to support him here and now on everything he has · said, particularly with regard to recreation and with regard to the road from Manuels to the Trans-Canada, those two things that are badly needed. I would like now - I have spoken in the House before, but I have not addressed this House in regard, particularly, to the district of Eagle River.

I have spoken in parts on it and particular problems, but not the full district. Eagle River itself is located in Sandwich Bay. Separation Point separates Eagle River,which is 150 miles long, Paradise River, which is about 90 miles long,and White Bear,which is llO miles long. The district itself stretches from L'Anse au Clair to Paradi"se River. Some of the places in the district: L'Anse-au-Clair, Forteau, L'Anse-Amour, L'Anse-au-Loup, Capstan Island, West St.

Modeste, Pinware, Red Bay, Lodge Bay, Mary's Harbour, Fox Harbour, Port Hope Simpson, Williams Harbour, Pinsent Arm, Shallow Town, Norman Bay, Domino, Black Tickle, Cartwright and Paradise River. These are only the permanent communities. If I had to go through the Summer communities I would go as far as to say that I would be up as high as probably two or three hundred communities. Because in the Winter they move back to the permanent stations and in the Summer they end up moving out to the Summer stations to pursue their living.

I might point out, with regard to the Summer stations, nothing has been done with 224

~arch 4, 1980, Tape 82, Page 3 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: these Summer stations for several years. And if nothing is done with them in particular, then, of course, it is going to have a devastating effect on the fisheries because they do need these small slipways and small stages and wharves in order to tie up their boats . Communications in my district: I would like to compliment the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) on a few things before - he just left . One of the things in co .mmunications is phones~n my district . I have !our places that only have one phone, so if 22 5

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 83 NM - 1 MR. HISCOCK: you are talking in the community in your house and you want to give an important phone call with regard to your banking, with regard to your private life, or business, everybody in the harbour ends up hearing it. This is Williams Harbour, Pinsent Arm, Norman Bay and Paradise River. Also in Charlottetown 1may I add,and in a few other communities, if you turn on the FM station you can pick up the phone conversation throughout the full community. No roads; there are no roads in Williams Harbour, Pinsent Arm, Charlottetown, Norman Bay and Paradise River.

We hear many members in this House speak on the idea for more pavement. There are no roads in the lower part of my district, nor are there any roads, gravel or whatever, in the district adjacent to mine,which is Torngat Mountains. of over 325 people, , · TV, there is a community in my district Charlottetown 1which does not even receive CBG radio or CBC TV. Last year one of the students at the school ended up winning honours in her grade eleven and one of those courses that she ended up doing was history.

This year the teachers felt that they could not carry on this course because of the need to have current affairs-which plays such an important part on radio and on TV, in magazines.-that they had to do away with this history course. Air services to the district~ I must say since I have spoken in this House the last time 1I really do have to compliment the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) on the improvements in air services in the district. For exarnple,now we Rave 1 three times a week from Forteau, straight into St. John's

whereas before you would only go as far as Gander. So I compliment the minister on that. Again, as such. Labrador Airways is not receiving a subsidy on this part, but from St. Anthony to points south in the district, Mary's Harbcur,and then taken by single engine plane they do receive a subsidy. But I might caution the minister ~ow that this subsidy is only on a trial basis for three months 226

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 83 NM - 2 MR. HISCOCK: and it is not the best time of the year, if you are going to take a representation if a project should continue, to have a subsidy and have a trial period in the months of December, January, and February. Surely if the people are travelling it is the same as anywhere else in the Province, usually the majority of travel takes place in the Summertime. So I would like for them to take this in mind when they are doing their evaluation. Also I want to point out about the snow clearing problem.

We have had many members speak on this and also in the House and on radio as well as the city. I would like to compliment the minister in providing a new snow blower for the area as well as an extra plow.

I gather the people in tre 8ay of Islands are extremely upset that the plow is going there,but I would like to remind our fellow citizens in the Bay of Islands anytime they want to come up and fish off Black Tickle or Red Bay 1or come on up and get Northern cod or come up and get some bakeapples or get power from the Lower Churchill or get benefits from Labrador City 1then I am sure the people from Labrador South district und Eagle River do not mind sharing with them. So I thank you for not kicking up a stink yourself, the han. member, and for permitting that plow to come pecause•again 1 it is very badly needed.

I was just talking to there today, for example, and again the roads are blocked 1 so- it really is needed. Medical needs: There is a new clinic needed at Forteau, and there is a new clinic needed at Black Tickle. They also need a nursing station at Fox Harbour. Maybe next year we might be able to acquire this on a Canada Works project and then get the IGA to place a nurse there. We need improvements at the nursing station in Mary's Harbour as well as the one in cartwright, particularly the one in Cartwright; it is extremely old. 227

March 4, 1980 Tape NO. 83 GH-3 MR. HISCOCK: Schools; in particular I ended up asking for an educational epquiry iJ'lto !I)Y di·strict. !n the district, pa_--ticularly from L' Allse-au-clair to Red Bay, the school faci.Llties ·, ! would go so far as to say,are on par with the Island. we have our gyms·, we have our other extra curricular activities and, basically, we are up to standard. But from LOdge Bay up to Paradise River I cannot say the same th·ing for my district.

I have tw'O teache.rs teaching in the same classroom in Eox aarbour, in LO.dge 3ay; also in l~illiams HarbOur I have two teachers teaching in the same classroom; Pinsent Arm, one teacher teaching fr'Oln Kinder garten to Grade 10: and for Norm~ Bay, from Kindergarten to Grade 8._ 228

Harch 4, 1980 Tape No . 84 DW - 1 t1R. E. HISCOCK: 0rade ten I am sorry. And from Norman Bay from Kindergarten to Grade Eight.

Also in Williams Harbour, two teachers teaching from Kindergarten to Grade Ten in one classroom and I find these really, in all honesty, totally unacceptable. we talk about the benefits and the future of our Province 1 and if we cannot ~~velop the basic I resource that we have in this Province of our own peoplet then how are these new people, particularly during Education Week, this week, how can we provide them with equipment, the talents to be able to challenge and take their lives in their own hands and take the society in the direction that they want it ~o go if we do not provide them with those basics? ,.

In Coastal Labrador district now we are seeing, maybe for the first time, a freeze on registra- tion fo~ boats, we are seeing a freeze on licensing, and as a result of this the majority of th~ young men will not .be able to get into the fisheries. So if they cannot get into the fisheries they need alternative lifestyles and occupations, That means trades schools, that means various other vocations. And if we cannot provide them with the basics in the schools, then how can they get to the trades schools?

So I asked the question that I ask now:with regard to Lodge Bay and Pinsent's Arm in particular we are entitled to two extra teachers, but because we do not have accommodations those two teachers are teaching over on the Northern Peninsula somewhere. Also because of accommodation in Cartwright next year,the school board is closing down the residence, it is quite possible that the six teachers will have to find other accommodations and it may be that the School in Cartwright may have to be closed down. 229

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 84 ow - 2 MR . E. HISCOCK: The fisheries in the district~ my district as well as the neighbouring district of Torngat Mountains basically are where the Northern cod comes for the Winter and late Spring and late Fall in order to breed. In that district I only have one fresh fish plant,in L'Anse-au- Loup. That was opene~ up until last year, until November 24th.,and if the ferry would have extended longer and facil- ities 3Vailable and there was heating in that plant 1it is quite possible that could be even going up until some time in mid January.

So we have this myth or this fallacy that people look upon Labrador and think it is frozen all year round not all year round,but after particularly November and early December,and that you cannot have any occupation. "You must bring it down to Fogo, you must bring it down to Harbour Grace, you must bring it down to St.

John's or you must bring it down to Englee!' I am saying no~ even though those places that I have mentioned are a-lso Liberal districts,that the people in my district of Eagle River are not going to continue to see their resources continually taken out of the district unless a fair benefit and a fair return comes in ·to those districts by the way of draggers. Here we have licenses .for freezer trawlers to go up onto the Hamilton Banks,and yet we cannot get one dragger licens< for that full district.

Also we have other fish plants throughout the district, William 's Harbour, Black Tickle, Mary's Harbour and also in Fox Harbour and in Cartwright. I am very, very pleased in particular that one of the - since 1 probably 1 Mr. Coaker - we have an experiment going on down in my district with regard to the shrimp, r The union in that district has . set up a co-operative where they will now buy the boats and end up fishing for 'the shrimp themselves. I have 230

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 84 ow - 3 MR. E. HISCOCK: only one concern with c ha t and that concern is if they end up getting the freezer - trawle rs for the shrimp and other species, there is a tendency to process that aboard the ship instead of bringing it ashore so that basically you will g~ve employment to young married couples and families. So if that danger goes in it then I will again speak up against my own peciple in the district because I think it would be th~ detriment of a long-term benefit.

In William 's Harbour a.nd Black Tickle last year they ended up h a ving a ~ort uguese sh.ip come in and take ove: a million pounds of fish out. Basically the reason was , . they d id not have the freezing capacity and that the freez.ing unit making ice was always b reaking down. I would hope that the Minist er of Fisheries (Mr. ~-!o rgan) would see that this does not happen this year, that the employment will ~e giv en to ~ · · · own people instead of the ?ortuguese fishermen who · are aboard these boats.

I would like tO also point out to the Ministe r of ?ish~ries that we have a 30 per cent subsidy gear ?rogramme on the Labrad .or coas.t and in that regard people we%e quite contented with it,but now they have basically found out that when they want to buy only temporary parts or small parts of their trap 1 th~y cannot 231

!4arch 4, 1960 Tape No. BS EL - 1 MR. EUGENE HISCOCK: get the subsidy. So I think that should be changed and basically it should include all of Labrador and that the subsidy should go towards parts~s well as the new materials altogether.

In the Winter I have the privilege of travelling my district through the election,and then in a major tour by boat and by airplane last F.all and then I just came back a week and a half ago from travelling in the district by way of skidoo One of the things that I am amazed at in ~1i .nter is that most of the time of the men in that district is spent getting water for the family and also getting firewood. The cost of oil and gas in that district is astronomical and if people in this part of the Island had to pay for it they would not be as quiet as some of the people in my district.

Also, with regard to the people them­ selves,they are second to none! I would even go as far as to say it is one of the few areas left in this Province where you basically can go into the dis- trict and the people will take you for what you are and end up giving you the shirts off their backs- AN. HO!'I. MEMBER: ~.R. WARREN: ·· Right on•! without asking you any questions and that,but always putting the best in people. They were the first people of Labrador.

These were the people that came over, the Basque whalers, for example, came over in the district in the fifteenth century, one of the oldest districts, I think, or the oldest place in this ¥rovince. It is one of besides L'Anse-au-Meadows. We also have historical places in the point of L'Anse-Amour where the University has found the Indians going back to the fifth century B.C. And then, of course, we have got L'Anse-Amour. I do not know if very many people know about Lance Amor.

Lance Amor is a very small community and during ~\e oecond World War, the Bri­ tish Admiralty ship, the ~leigh, went aground and the Davis family end­ ed up rescuing a lot of these sailors, so much that the Bri- 232

Harch 4, 1980 Tape No. 85 EL - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: tish Admiralty decreed and gave a patent to the land and said that only Davis's were allowed to settle in the community of Lance Amor. So that is, just again, a little bit about the historic value. The people themselves in that.district are extremely hard working, do not want to receive unemployment insurance, do not want to receive welfare. Basically, they want to turn around and develop the fishery and develop the woods resources that are in the district.

I would hope in the future, part­ icularly with regard to Lodge Bay,that we would see the road from Lodge Bay extended to Mary's Harbour so that now, instead of having to go six miles on ski doo to get their mail, or to go and get passenger service£ 0 Y plane, they would be able to have these by way of road. I do not think there is any other area in this province that has such primitive conditions as they have had in Lodge Bay as they have this vear. Instead of, in actual. fact, getting better it is after really. getting worse.

Another thing I want to talk about particularly is with regards to the administration of my district. The hen. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt) said his district may be two and a half times as large as mine or maybe I would even go as far as to say four times in population, but in land mass and land area, I would even go as far as to say I am five or six times as large as Conception Bay South, if not even more. I would even go as far as to say ten times. But in the administration point the member for Conception Bay South only has to qo to st. John's.

If I want to deal with my district in the administration and bureaucrats I have to deal out of St. John's, I have to deal out of Corner Brook, I have to deal out of Deer Lake, I have to deal au; of St. Anthony, Goose Bay 1 233

March 4,1980 Tape No. 86 AH-1 ~!R. HISCOCK: and to an extent Flower's Cove with the school board. I have five school bo~rds in my district, Also, media-wise, if I want to talk to any of the media, if I want to get across to the people in my district of the representation or what is going on in government, I can only speak to half of them at a time. If I want to speak to the ones from L'Anse-au-Clair to Red Bay,then I go through the Corner Brook media. If I want to speak to Lodge Bay to Paradise,then I have to go through Goose Bay.

So these are some of the problems that I have in the district and some of these problems we 'will be addressing by way of the Federal and Provincial governments and hopefully in the future many of these problems can be done away with and Labrador itself will begin to feel a lot more integrated in this Province. One of the things that I hope will be coming in the future ~rill be that we ·~~ill be seeing the Sir Robert Bond'coming into Cartwright. I hope to see obviously a~other CN coastai service,improved very greatly from what it is today 1 operating out of St.

Anthony and going to points South where they would have a roll-on/roll-off car ferry. I am not talking about a large one like the Sir Robert Bond but I am talking about a modest way of breaking the isolation. But I want to now take in with regard to greater things in the Province besides the district. I want to take in one thing about our relationship with Quebec. In our relationship with Quebec itis seen that basically this Province has,particularly under our Premier now, we have taken a role that is basically confrontation.

I am not arguing for the pros or for the cons of the development of the Lower Churchill, but I will go so far as to say this 1 after living in Quebec for 234

March 4,1980 Tape No. 86 AH -2 MR. HISCOCK: about three years, that Quebec itself takes second place to no one and for us to go to Quebec and expect that they are not going to try and get the best rights for their citizens 1 we are only sleeping in the dark.

And when the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) came back from a meeting with the Premier in Quebec and said he was willing to have negotiations with the Premier, Premier Peckfordended up going up to see the other Premiers at Quebec and basically our Premier could have taken a very notable stand that.basically in the long run would turn around and basically put him on the side of the Federalists in this country. And that is that when he went to have his first meeting with Mr.

Levesque he should have slammed the door right in his face and said~we will have nothing to do with you whatsoever until this referendum is over because,one, you do not recognize our claim on Labrador, our sovereignty rights; number two, you do ROt recognize our problems with the Upper Churchill and the contract and you will not renegotiate, so therefore. why should I have anything to do with a Premier who is committed to the breakup of Canada and why should I have anything to do with a Premier who does not even recognize the sovereignty over my own Province." But instead the Premier ended up going there expecting to get a warm deal and instead of having a meeting with the Minister of Mines and Energy for Quebec the Minister of Mines and Energy ended up going on back to Quebec City and our Premier was left standing there basically insulted, left out, whatever.

But I really feel that that was the turning point,that we really should have told Quebec what we were. 235

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 86 IB-3 MR. HISC OCK: But in che meancice I also say that it is a time for co -operation with Quebec and if we do not co -operate with Quebec for the benefit of Labrador, particularly with regards for the Labradorians, because the people in Labrador - and you ask the member for Menihek (Mr. Walsh) - they do not care if the road goes to Montreal. The people in my district have a road to St . Paul 's; they do not care if the road goes to Montreal or Quebec City . What they are concerned about is development . And if we do not start solving some of these problems of co-operation instead of confrontation in this country ,that 236

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 87 so - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK.: the one people who are living in those parts of the country are the ones that are qoing to suffer.and are suffering. Quebec now has control, economically, over Western Labrador. There are talks now about putting the road from Churchill Falls to Labrador City.

If we do do that 1 again Quebec will get control over Churchill Falls economically. so the best thing that this Province basically needs to do is start putting money into Lahzador itself and bringing the road across to Lake Melville and basically back to the Straits and providing an infrastructure of transportation to get the goods into it 1 because as of now , there are people in my district who are ordering from Montreal because they can get the ferry service to come on up until mid January

whereas with CN,and also on the private ferry in my district, we end up cutting off the service December 11th. So these are some of the questions that I want to address in the upcoming months ; and another one I would like to address in the upcoming months is particularly with St. John's. I am very, very concerned about St. John's and with the idea of the strike Hibernia is going to have on this Province. we have interest rates now that we can not afford to pay,and if Hibernia is found commerciall~ land rates are going to qo up, real estate is going to qo up and it is going to basically break open St. John's.

And I think the provincial government here should take the lead and do as they do in Saskatchewan - buy land banks, the crown lands, and develop the area and do not have this profiteering by real estate companies. I also believe very, wry strongly that we have to look at certain areas in st. John's and designate them as high-rise development areas where you can get into your high-rise apartments or your compleses or whatever 237

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 87 SD - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: and develop that core of the city. But if we are going to turn around and start letting houses go up on the corner of Empire and Forest Road,apartments 1 and if we are going to have more Duffett buildings and we are going to have another Royal Trust Building come up here and there, I would go as far as to say within ten or fifteen years down the way .... sure we will qet the short-ter111 economic benefit but there, s0111ewhere along the line, we will be basically askinq ,, ,, ourselves, What ever happened to old historical St. John's?

It makes me lauqh a little bit now really when we talk about "old historical St. John's~ For the most case you can not find a building older than 130 years, but at least we have qot some charm there to it, I am not talking to the extent of detriment to business but I am talking about sound planninq, We have to look at our areas\ whether it be East of the , railway station where the arterial road or whatever 1 but I really believe strongly that we have to get into those areas.

And another one which I would like to address probably to the Premier himself: I feel that the Premier is trying to paint the provincial Liberal Party in particular as being anti-Newfoundland and anti-Labrador, that basically, somehow or another that we do not have our hearts or minds in the right places, that we are playing partisan politics with regard to offshore resources and that s0111ehow · or another the only true - I was going to say true blue but I better not - the only true Newfoundland and Labradorian is basically one on the government side and I will not submit to that.

Not only will I not submit to it bat time will tell in this House where I stand, particularly personally. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. E. HISCOCK: Another one that I am particularly 238

March 4 , 1980 Tape No. 87 SD- 3 l(R.. E. HISCOCK: concerned about, and I &$k the Premier to take note of that himself and that is the tactic of confrontation. Basically, this c_rovernment is operating within the past, the new administration in particular UDder Mr. Pecltford 1 is one of confrontation. You had a qovermaent in Otta- whicll was Conservative and everybody said, even the Pre=i.er himself, "Let .us put a COnservative GovermDant in in Otta- because we will be able to get more done and we will. be able to co-operate. • And then we end us seeing basically what ended up happeni.nq ~mder Northern cod.

I support the position that Mr. Pecltford toolc on that but I have to ask politically, did it have to come out in the open and did it have to come out in that way of confrontation? And secondly, I also ask him now, here we have the new c;overnment appointed and a new minister, and 1for whatever reason, 239

March 4, 1980 MR. HISCOCK: Minister of Revenue. is second to none - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HISCOCK: Tape 88 EC-1 Mr. Rompkey has the position of He is the spokesman for this Province,he Hear, hear! - and what his political future will be and how it will go will depend upon his own ability. And I do not think his position now reflects in any way. But to say that he is an insult to this Province or a 'nothing', Ithink is starting off on the wrong foot with a man that this Province and this government have to deal with.

And basically I again ask to the fact - is not this government going to turn around and use within the next five or six months - and the theory or the tactic will be, Let us paint the Liberals over there on that side as being anti-Newfoundland, anti-development and anti-patriotic and basically going and selling Newfoundland down the drain. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. THOMS: -lie is nodding his head. Look! MR. WINDSOR: Do you really think that is what we are up ~o? MR. HISCOCK: But time will tell, because time is on no one's side.

I would like to thank again those people in my district who elected me and I would like to con- gratulate each member of this House, in particular, on being elected. And the new member for Burg~o-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews) I did everything I could, of course, to make sure that he was not here, but I must say I give him credit. Secondly, I would like to congratulate the Speaker on his appointment,as well as the Deputy Speaker. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (BUTT) SOME HON. MEMBERS: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Save it t.o the end! 240

March 4, 1980 Tape 88 EC - 2 MR. J. DINN: I am not responsible for any labour in the Province at the present time. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) labour? MR. J. DINN: My wife had two . Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to stand in the House of Assembly today to speak in the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne and to 1 first of all, congratulate the mover and seconder of the motion of the gracious Speech , the non. the member for Harllour Main - Bell Island (Mr. N. Doyle) and the hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. D. Stewart). Mr.

Speaker, certainly the level of the debate up to this point in time has been on a higher plane than I have noticed in the past in this House, and in that regard I would also like to congratulate you on your speech in the House of Assembly as the member for Conception Bay South and laying out some of the problems of that district. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, near! MR. J. DINN: I know them all too well as they are just bordering on the city of St.

John's and I have travelled many times through the district of Conception Bay South and know · that all of the things that you said were ones that are of grave concern to the people out there,and I am sure that in the next few years you will solve many of those problems. I would also, Mr. Speaker, like to congratulate the hen. the member for Eagle River (Mr. E. Hiscock) who just completed llis speech in this House.

He also laid out many of the difficulties and the problems that relate directly to the people in his district, and I believe that these are some of the things that we should be doing more often in this House. He laid credit where credit was due, he outlined some of the problems that needed improvement and,hopefully, he will work on behalf of his people and try to correct some of the deficiencies and problems that he has in his district,. 241

= ~..arch 4, 1980 Tape 88 EC - 3 l1.a . J. Dn<IN : Also, Mr. Speake:, I thought c~e hon. the Government ?.ouse Leader, when he laid out che case :or offshore oil and gas and the preoed en ;.s t.'lat ha ve been set previously and done with co-operation and by legislation boc:h in the provin .oes an<! at ~'le federal leve .l so that ~toba and Qu ebec and other .ueas could ax~nci their jurisdiction , and we ce rtainly think that thi s is the approach that ·..,e s.houl.d cal< e . MR. L. STlRLDIG: Read that exactly as it is written . MR . J. DINN: Mr. Sp eaker, th e hon . the member for Bonavista Nor th (Mr.

Stirling) continues co inte rr upt in thi s House of 1\ssembly. I woul.d only wish that t.."' e ?eople of Bonavisr.a Norr.. IJ could see hi.:11 in the Bouse acting the way he does , because I arn guita sure, Joir. Speaker, th at these police people, many of . ..,hom ! know out L"l 242

March 4, 1980, Tape 89, Page 1 -- apb MR. DD!N: Bonavista North would be most disappointed in that hon. member. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, to just continue on, this is possibly the most important Speech from the Throne that we have had in this House, certainly in my tjme, and certainly in the Speeches from the Throne that have been read over previous years and by past and past and former and former administrations. It is one that will require eve·ry hon. member in this House to stand up and state the case.

I think to do less would do an injustice to the people that they represent in their constituencies and to the people in this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador that I know we all love, and that I know we are all working toward a day when we will get to that place in the sun that we deserve. Now, Mr. Speaker, the offshore oil and gas: I am not going to go into the legalese. I will leave that to the hon. learned gentlemen in the House; the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) to siphon through with his obvious knowledge of these things, and the hon. Opposition House Leader (Mr.

Roberts) and the Government House Leader to get up and state their case as they see it because I think we are all going to be very concerned about what they have to say. I look at it from a strictly layman's point of view. I know that on Bell Island when they dug for iron ore, the Forsyth shaft, for example, went out something like three miles. In 1966, as I recall, there was a contract on a desk waiting for the election to go through so that they could continue to dig and continue to get iron ore out of that mine. Everybody was waiting for the contract to be signed. 243

March 4, 1980, Tape 89, Page 2 -- apb MR. DINN: And that was something like fourteen or fifteen years ago. And let us say, Mr. Speaker, that they had continued, let us say that that Forsyth shaft had continued to go out for fifteen years, straight out, they may be out another ten or fifteen miles, who knows? Would anybody in Ottawa say at that point in time that Newfoundland could not control that development? That Newfoundland did not own that ore? Would anybody have said that at that time? I did not hear any screams from Ottawa at that time. MR. NEARY: I went down (inaudible). MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) had his day and a half in court and he will have his other days in court, maybe a different one from here. But, Mr. Speaker, I will want to lay out my case - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. DINN: - the hon. member for LaPoile can lay out his case, when he gets an opportunity. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! A point of order. The hon. gentleman for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what kind of a threat or innuendo is that?

I ask the hon. gentleman to explain himself or withdraw that remark and apologize to the House for his ignorance. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is getting exercised. I do not want to upset the 244

March 4, 1980, Tape 89, Page 3 -- apb MR. DINN: hon. gentleman. MR. NEARY: No, you are not upsetting me. MR. DINN: He is in what he calls the highest court in the land. He may want to go to higher heights. He may want to run for some constituency somewhere else. He may be judged by the court of public opinion, Mr. Speaker. There are many courts - MR. NEARY: Do not be such a coward. MR. DINN: - that the hon. gentleman may have to face. MR. NEARY: Do not be a c01"ard. The laughing hyena, the nervous breakdown, thinks you are funny. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, I just want the opportunity, as every hon. member in this House deserves, an opportunity to be able to speak and b~ heard in silence. One of the rules of this Legislature, and every other that I know, non. members are permitted to get up in their places and say their piece and speak on behalf of the people that they represent and the people of this Province. I certainly will not take a second seat to that hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker. But we have heard it in the past, we have had opportunities in the past, and here we have another opportunity.

We have heard rallying cries in the past of two jobs for every man, of burn your boats, of develop or perish, of many, many others and now I say - MR. SPEAKER(Butt): Order, please~ 245

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 90 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) Is the ton. minister finished speaking to the point of order? SOME HON. MEMBERS : oh, oh! MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order • I thought we all recognized that. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, I do not think there is a point of order and I think the hon. gentleman has explained his point and I ask him to proceed in silence. SQ!1E HON. MEMBERS : OM, oh! MR. J. DINN: Thank you very much , Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have also had opportunities in this Province, we have had western Labrador iron ore. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. J.

DINN: Mr. Speaker, what we get out of Western Labrador with respect to revenue is nothing short of a disgrace. It is going to cost the Province and possibly the companies up there $2 million just to find out what to do about the various dust problems that we have up there, something that should have been looked at earlier. It is something that an Environmental Assessment Act , as a piece of legislation when brought in in this sitting of the House 1 after in the future. will look Mr.

Speaker, the U!'per Churchill: and nobody has to, nobody in this Province has to stand and say what the Upper Churchill now means to this Province. MR. F. STAGG: It is a shock. MR. J. DINN: They know what it means to Quebec.~nd they know what it means to this Province - virtually nothing. MR. F. STAGG: (Inaudible) to the Liberals. MR. J. DINN: The Quebec province, Mr. Speaker, gets about $.5 billion a year from the Upper Churchill and 246

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 90 SD - 2 MR. J. DINN: we get peanuts and that can not continue. The linerboard mill was another impossible dream and everybody r~cognizes it as an impossible dream. The new paper mill that is being developed out there is something that we can: all look forward to as one of the success stories in the future. I am repeating these, Mr. Speaker, because I think a& this point in our time it is very important for hen. members to think about the past, to know what we have to do in the future so that we do not make the kind of mistakes that we have made in the past. MR. S • NEARY : mill cost? MR.

SPEAKER: (Butt) MR. J. DINN: MR. S. NEARY: MR. J. DINN: How much did closing the linerboard Order, please! The Come by Chance refinery. - How about the political poll? Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) continues. to interrupt. MR. N. WINDSOR: Ignorance. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Please do not interrupt the gentleman. MR. J. DINN: The Come by Chance refinery, Mr . Speaker, another disaster area.

If we had not renegotiated the deal on the Come by Chance refinery 1this Province would have been on the hook right now for about $500 million. we had it all guaranteed - about $500 million we would be on the hook for right now if it had not been negotiated. As it is we are on the hook for about $45 million, $30 million plus interest charges. ERCO , subsidized to the tune of about $20,000 per job. Now, Mr. Speaker, can we continue to do this in the future? These things are in the past and I say if you can fix some of them, fix some of them; if 247

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 90 so - 3 MR. J. OINN: you can do some'tt!.in<J about some of them, do somethinq about some of th-, l:IUt let us look towards the future, let us see where we are qoinq into the future. Where axe hem. lllil!mbers in this House? And I say to hon. members that we are at a crossroads ri<]ht now, that; we have very many decisions to make and we have to speak and I think it is very il!portant; that this Le<]islature speak with one voice, that we aU knoW where we are qoinq • ~s, the hon. member for LaPoile (~. s.

Neuy) indicated that the permit that was issued was issued by a Liberal Government and there is nothinq wronq wi .th that. But I ask the hon. qentlelllall, how many jobs in those fifteen years d1d we get in the offshore? MR. S. ~: Whatever we get you can thank the Liberals for it. MR. J. DINN : well, whatever we got I would be ashamed to say. It was about foor per cent. I think you could count them on all of your digits the n'!Diber of jobs that we <JOt on the permits that were issued on the offshore. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear; hear. 248

March 4, 1980 Tape 91 ~1B - 1 MR. J. DINN: There are five, ten, fifteen, twenty~ I do not think it would go over twenty-one, Mr. Speaker. So we have to have regulations, we have to control development, and if we do not control develop­ ment there will be no guarantee of jobs in the offshore for Newfoundlanders or anyone else in this country. It was only last year on the Discoverer Seven Seas there were ninety-eight Filipinos to be brought in on that contract and we had to get that changed. our regulations made them change that and we got 128 Newfound!anders working on those boats.

These are the kinds of things that are very important to this Province. It is very important at this point in time. It seems funny to me that when wewere developing iron ore in the ~ines at Bell Island and we_were out there three miles , and if the contract that was supposed to have been on somebody's desk had been signed and we had continued to develop Bell Island,we would be out there maybe fifteen miles now. AN HON. MEMBER: That is a different action. OIR. J.

DINN: The fact of the matter is that I did not hear any screams from Ottawa as to who controlled the development on Bell Island, but now all of a sudden, and it seems to me all of a sudden, and if we show weakness here either on this side of the House or on your side of the House, the Opposition side of the House, if we show any kind of a split in this tegislature then we are putting the offshore oil and ~as ~n ~eril. MR. F: B. ROWE: MR. J. DINN: Screaming is over there. The hon. member thinks that I am speaking a little bit too loud. The hon. member can go outside and turn me down. Mr.

Speaker, it is the way my voice carries. 249

March 4, 1980 Tape 91 MB - 2 MR. J. DINN: Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. the Leader of the Opposition when he stood up and spoke in the House covered the fact that the Speech fr~~ the Throne was a kind of a philosophical document but he said that he did not see any legislation in the Speech from the Throne. Well that is true, absolutely correct. The fact of the matter is that with respect to the offshore oil and gas, which if you can look at it is one-third of the Speech, we have legislation and regulations in place for that.

With respect to the fisheries the Han. the Premier laid out quite clearly and quite definitely the reason why we do not have legislation in place for that. AN HON. MEMBER: The White Paper. MR. J. DINN: The fact of the matter is, yes, I think it is important and if we can do it through a ··rhite paper I think it is importa-nt that the people of this Province understand what we are all about,what we are trying and what we are attempting to do with respect to the Fisheries. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) last study MR. J.

DINN: I think the study that has been done in the past - If the han. member thinks that nothing has been done in the fishery in the past three or four years, the han. member should go to his district because it is quite evident, it is quite evident. Last year alone the fishery increased by thirty-four percent in this Province. MR. F.B. ROWE: What do you mean? AN HON. MEMBER: That is the value, that is not (inaudible) MR. J. DINN: The value, the value. In jobs in l978,in primary we had 7,100, in processing we had 7,500. In 1978 that is about 15,000 jobs. In 1979 we had close to 20,000 jobs in the fishery.

We hac close to - MR. S. NEARY: Thanks to ROI!Hio LeBlanc. 250

~arch 4, 19 80 Tape 91 ~IB - 3 ~R. J. DINN: Can :oe hon. member tell me how many people are fishi~g now on the Northeasc coasc? The re are very few. When the ice comes in there is - So it is not a twelve month job. The plants are not open twelve months of the year. We would hope to put a plan in place whereby- Now , in 1978 ,oy the way , for the hon. member 's in=ormation - Not education because t think the hon. member SOME MON. MEMBERS: !o!R. J. DINN: Edification Edification, well chat is not a bad word. The hon. member-in the primary sector and in the processing sector, these are man years, okay.

So that is a ye ar ly job if you will. So we are not talking about one man working for twelve months,but we are talking about the equivalent. we are talking about a man-year. 251

March 4, 1980 Tape 92 RA - l NR. J. DINN: In 1984-85 we are talking about increasing the capability of doubling. Now, if we are going to do that, and I say that we should be able to do that with some sort of control or some sort of co-operation federally/provincially, we have to have some say in how the Northern cod stock is developed. Now, I look at the Province of Newfoundland, especially the Northeast Coast as a processing plant, the whole Province, the whole Island, Labrador. And if we have a factory ship coming in here and catching it, what need is there of the jobs on shore? You do not need them.

What need is there of the jobs in Nova Scotia? Why land them at a plant? lihy not just take it, process it, and go directly to the market? That is the kind of thing that we have to really consider, really think about and make sure that the factory that they are talking about is th.e factory that we have on land right now.

We have to stand up as Newfoundlanders and it is not a political thing, we have to stand up as government and opposition, as one voice, and ~e have got to say to the federal government, we have to have a say. in that and we have . to make sure that Newfoundland is protected and the interest of Newfoundland is protected. Mr. Speaker, in the forestry, if you talk about direct and indirect which I do not like to get into, but if you talk about direct jobs you are talking about 7,000 jobs in the forestry sector. Is the han. the member for LaPoile in favour of t:•e budworm spray programme?

Is the hon. the member for LaPoile saying we should spray this year? MR. S . NEARY: I am not cowardly (inaudible) • MR. J. DINN: Is that the position of the - MR. S. NEARY: My position is I am against it. MR. J. iJINN: I see - very good. MR. S. NEARY: I said so outside the House (inaudible). MR. J. DINN: So the hon. member for LaPoile agrees with the government's position and I am delighted. It is ~~e first time that I have seen him agree on anything. :-IR. G. FLIGHT: Wnat was the minister's position last year on (inaudible) • 252

March 4, 1980 Tape 92 RA- 2 MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the Linerboard mill with no subsidies, with no electrical subsidies will employ next year about 800 jobs. And we did not have to give anything away. I mean there was no subsidization of power on that. It will go on, hopefully, for years. It was a deal whereby the Province sold it for $43.5 million and the company who thought that they would operate that newsprint mill, they were so confident that it would work, said, that we would pay you $3 million per year if we do not reach the objectives. So, Mr.

Speaker, we are starting to turn things around in Newfoundland. I believe that, and I think the next step is to make sure that not a P.C. government or a P.C. member and a Liberal member, that the P.C.s are for and the Liberals are against, I think basically, every member in this House is for what we are trying to do in the offshore oil and gas. I have not heard anybody really stand up and say that they are against the legislation or the regulations on the offshore. I have not really heard anybody stand up and say that what we are saying is not right.

I certainly believe that what we are saying and what we are doing about it is right and if any hon. member wants to add anything, if there is something that I am not doing with respect to employment in the offsho~e, if there are some suggestions that they can make to me to improve the situation, well, I would be only too happy to listen.

But I think we should all work together and make sure that what we do in this sitting of the House, which is probably the most important sitting that we will have, make sure that we stand and we speak with one voice and we tell Ottawa what we want and if they say no, then maybe, it is confrontation. I think it is time that maybe - I think back when Churchill Falls was developed and the lines were to go through Quebec, I think at that time everybody should have stood up and been counted and made sure 253

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 93 IB-1 MR. DINN: that we got the deal that we should have gotten. This is another time. Mr. Speaker, I cannot stress too much the importance of the problems that we are facing in Newfoundland in the next year or two and I cannot stress the importance of having the government side of this House and the Opposition side of this House speak with one voice, unanimously, and make sure that we get our rights on offshore oil and gas and our rights with respect to the fisheries and our rights with respect to development of our energy in Labrador and any other project that we get into. AN HON.

MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: Now, Mr. Speaker, it is not true to say that there is no need of a White Paper on the fisheries right now. I think that many Newfoundlanders know, I think that many Newfoundlanders are aware of what we are attempting to do with respect to the fisheries. Newfoundlanders who do not know. But there are many MR. FLIGHT: MR. DINN: Mr. McGrath does not know. Mr. McGrath may not know and the fact of the matter is if he does not know and if he does not agree he has got to be told and he was told. And that is the position that we have got to take.

It is not, as I said before, a partisan political - MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: He told the Premier to get rid of (inaudible) - isolated issue. If· the federal government does not happen to agree with us- if we believe in our position then we have got to state it and it does not matter whether it is a Tory administration or a Grit administration in Ottawa. I think it is very important that not only does the government of the Province speak but when the government of the Province speaks I think that the whole Legislature should speak in one voice. 254

March 4, 1980 Tape No. 93 IB-2 MR. DINN: . Now, Mr. Speaker, there are many long-range things that will impact on Newfoundland in the years to come. There are also many short-range things. Just since the House closed last year we have been working,as I informed the House at that time,on employment in Newfoundland in the short-term, that the federal and provincial governments were co-operating on. The resource departments of the government have been working for three or four months and we have compiled a list of resource based projects that we need done. They are related to community stages.

There are none for Pleasantville. We do not have a requirement for community stages.But we have a list of some 174 projects for one job creation programme that the federal government had! or the previous administration had, and I would hope - I have a letter going off to Ottawa tomorrow to the new Minister of Employ~ent and Immigration hoping that he does not change back to the Canada Works type programme.

Because we have had the resource departments in this Province working for two or three months identifying projects, priorizing projects and we are ready now to submit them and they will be on their way, hopefully tomorrow, to Ottawa. There will be some $50 million, supposedly , that would have been provided to Eastern Canada, I would hope that that would continue under the new administration in Ottawa and we have, as I said, $27 million worth of priorized programmes on their way, or will be on their way tomorrow morning to the federal government. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. DINN: Is that the original list?

No that is a list that was compiled over the past three months by all the resource departments in this government. And they relate to fisher~es, they relate to forestry, they relate to tourism and - 255

~arch 4, 1980 Tape ~c. 93 IB -3 ~!R . tr.!GHT: (!~audible ) first time 3ubmitted. MR . DINN: It is the first time that it was submit-c.ed. It is a list of prcjeccs that are prioriz~d by - eiley are community stages . There are none for St . John's. I mean they are not priorized on a political basis and I can assure th e hon. member - SOM~ HON .MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DJ:NN: No. no. I can assure the bon. member that - MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) a secret? l1R. DINN: No, the hon . member can come to my office at any time and he can go through them one by one if he wants to. will be in Ottawa and The fact of the matter is that list 256

March 4, 1980 Tape 94 EC - l MR. J. DINN: the hon. member can get them from his co-operative minister up there. I would hope that he would implement as many of those projects as he possibly can. I think it is important in the short-term; I think the decisions of the long­ term have been identified by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I do not know if he is quite one hundred percent with us on the legal side of the battle that we are attempting to fight, I am sure he is here morally with us, that he believes that we should have the rights to the offshore. I leave it to the hon. the House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) and other learned gentlemen, as I said, to look at the legal side of it. From a straight pragmatic side, from a straight moral side, from a straight development side, I say that we are right in what we are doing and I would hope that every hon. member standing would state his position so that we can speak with one voice when we do have to speak with the federal government at Ottawa. SOME HON. MEMBERS : AN HON • MEMBER: · MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. F. WHITE: Hear, hear! Well said! The hon. the member for Lewisporte. Mr.

Speaker, my first act, I suppose - and it should be - in speaking in this Throne Speech debate, should be to welcome the new member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir (Mr. H. Andrews). I think it is fitting that a broadcaster has replaced a broadcaster in coming into the House and I am sure that he is going to be an ally of mine in one particular thing that I want to try to get achieved during the next few months or few years in this House. Last Summer, Mr. Speaker, in July and August, I found ~~is Legislature fairly refreshing. I found the new rules to be good.

I am pleased with them and I thought that the work of ~'le House