Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, APRIL 27, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 51

April 27, 1976 Tape 2148 The House met at 2:00 P.~. ~!r. Speaker in the Chair. }~. SPEAKER: Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS: HR . SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. IB-1 MR. ROBERTS : ~r. Speaker, overwhelmed as we are by the speed with which we got through the first five items on the Notice Paper, I have a question which in the absence of the ~inister of Justice and the Premier perhaps the House Leader could answer it for us. Coul!l the minister tell us, Sir, when we will be setting up the Public Accounts rommittee and how quickly it will get to work? }ffi. SPEAKER: The bon.

Minister without Portfolio. l"F. HELLS: ~r. Speaker, the question of committees, the bon. Leader of the Opposition will recall that shortly before - I do not know how many days, four or five sitting days I think -before the adjournment a committee was set up to strike the various committees under the chairmanship of the member for Green Bay (}~r. Peckford). They have, I think,~fenty days from their appointment to report. MR. ROBE~TS: No, no. It was to be set up within twenty days. Ml'. WELL~: Wait now. I,et me have a glance at the Standing Order. But at any rate, -rr.

Speaker, that committee will be reporting to the Rouse in due course and the committees of course will then follow. So that the matter is in the hands of that committee at the moment. I think the hon. gentleman's colleague, the House Leader, is a member of that cornmittee. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Lea!ler of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, a supplementary.

In view of the fact that the striking committee,which I think is the technically correct name of that committee,was set up some twenty-five days after it was required to be set up by Standing Orders~and in view of the fact that it has not yet met,I am informed by my colleague, the gentleman from Trinity­ Bay De Verde (~r.

Rowe) who sits as a member of that committee, would the minister undertake in his capacity as House Leader to have a word with his collea~ue, the ~inister of Municipal Affairs, to get the committee to meet quickly with a view to having it report back so that the Public Accounts Committee can be set up to consider whatever 5818

J\pr:ll 27, 1976 Tape 2148 IB-2 "P. P()BF.R'T'S: ~atters may properly come before it? ''~'. l•TELLS: Yr. Speal,er, thP comMlttee w:lll meet very shortly . VT> l'OB1'1''T'S: /1 further supp1e~entary then, 1-'r. Speaker. C:oulr'l the minister tell uR "'hether the cormdttee ~dll be given the pm~er to Rend for officials and papers? HR. SPEAKSR: The hon. Yinister wHhout Portfolio. ''T'. HELLS: No, I cannot agree to any such unc1ertaking at this tiMe, ~<r. Speaker . ~rp SPEAKEP: The han. Member for Port au Port . l'P . HODDEr: A question for the hon. }'inister of Transportation and ComtTiun i cations.

T wonc1er if the }linister of Transport at ion anc1 Communications could tell me "-'hat the conr1it::lon of the Kippens Bridge is? Is it safe and are there any plans to replace it this Summer? }'J'. SPEi\KJ'P: The han. }'ini.ster of Transportation and C:oml!'uni.cat:!ons. l'P. 1'0PC:A1:: Mr. Speaker, J have been away frol'l my off :Ice for the past nuJTlher of clays. I will he checkinr, on :It this afternoon and I Hill get a replv hack to the hon. member. ~W.. SPF.J\KET>: The hon. Lear'ler of the Opposition. 1'1'. ROBERTS: ''r . Speaker, a question to the 1-'inister of Tourism.

It is about the Salmonier ~dlrlerness park," Thich I believe is ~dthin the area of his c1epartmental responsibilities. C:oul d the minister tell us,please,juRt what action he has taken to ensure that the construction of the three park huildinp:s ;,rhich has apparently run into il considerab.le amount of cH fficn] tv, that that difficulty has been reiTloveC! and that the matter is now progressing satisfactoriJy? "P • SPEi\KPT' : The hon. }'inister of Tourism. ~m. TlH'KEY: }'r.

Speaker, the Jatest :lnfoTT'lation I have on the matter is that the Public Works people are lookinp, at the s:it-P. +-o net ermine just what acldHi.onal worl· has to he done. There have been some prohle~rs ·"nd there was a tender call but the contract could not te Jet because of c1amap,e to one nf the buildings which was not included in the initial tenc1er call - And as R result of that the matter was referred to tht> nepartment of Public Works and Services. 5819

April 27, 1976 Tape 2148 lB-3 ~'P.. SPP.AKFR: The bon. Leatler of the Oppositton. MR. ROBERTS: ~·r. Spe aker, a supplementary. And I hope the minister will grant Me a little Jee~!ay in this because his colleague,the ~·inister of Publ ic Works and Services , is not here and I would think the minister's departm ent is in the role of a c1ien t and the Ministry of PubUc Horks and Services is really in the role of a service department fulfilling a function. But in view of the fact there seems 5820 .. ,.

April 27, 1976 Tape No. 2149 NH - 1 MR. ROBERTS: to be very considerable question about some aspects of this matter, I wonder if the minister would undertake to lay on the table of the House a copy of the contract which was entered into, I believE> Tv:l.th a St.

John's firm known as, I think it was Gus 1•linter Limited - am I correct? - were the contractors; would he undertake to lay upon the table of the House a copy of the contract together with an explanation or a note,as the case might be, of exactly what work has been done and what has not been done;' And I ask that, Sir, because the fear is the amount of money which was provided,and which I understand has been fully paid under the contract,even though the work to be done on the contract has not been completed and what has been done has not been done satisfactorily.

The fear is, Sir, the Province will end up having to lay out a considerable amount of additional money to complete the job which I think we all want to see done. ~!R. SPEAKER: The hon. }~inis ter of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: 1 will take the matter under advisement, ~r. Speaker, and see just what can be done on it. ;MR. ROBEllTS: Well,I thank the minister, l"'r. Speaker, and a further supplementary; could the minister tell us,please,exactly what was the value of the contract let to the Winter Limited firm? >flt. SPEAKER: ~'R.. IU CKEY: The hon. 1-'inister of Tourism. ~1r.

Speaker, in fear of giving :incorrect information, I would not hesitate to provide the information,but I am unable to right at this moment. "R. ROBERTS: vTell I thank the hen. gentleman, Sir, and one cannot expect him to have these matters at his fingertips. I realize that. The minister will get me the information and that is really all I could ask. Could the minister also undertake to let us know, ~1r, Speaker, how much of the contract has not been completed and hovl much money has heen paid to the contracting firm,which I believe is called Gus Hinter Limited? 1-'ll. SPEAKER: The hen. '1inister of Tourism. 5821

April 27, 1976 Tape No. 2149 N¥- 2 }ffi. HICKEY: Yes, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Twillingate. ~m. s~Lwoon: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I am in order in the question I would like to direct to the minister, I mean,I am not sure if it is a supplementary and if it dealing with the same matter '~1th lorhich the hen. Leader of the Opposition dealt.

What I wanted to ask the minister is this, Is the minister and are his colleages in the government now quite determined that the wilderness area in question, and I take it it is the one on the Avalon Peninsula,is not going to be opened up by road and thereby destroy its character as a wilderness. Hay I take it that that is a settled policy of the governm~nt? }ffi. SPEAKER: '1'1?. HICKEY: The hon. ~inister of Tourism. 'Mr.

Speaker, t1tere is certainly no · indication, at least as far as I am concerned,that there is any danger to destroy the area in question that has been preserved,and this is the whole pnrpose - · ~.N HON. llEMBE~: Open towards Holyrood? MR. HICKEY: Not to my knowledge. MR. SMALLWOOD: I thank the hen. minister and I say God bless him,and I think a lot of people in Newfoundland will say the same thing. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. ~. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Premier, I wonder if the Premier could straighten out certain and seemingly contradictory statements made by himself and the Minister of ~ines and Energy with respect to certain OPEC countries interested in investing in the Come By Chance oil refinery. Is the Premier receptive to t~~ idea and does the Minister of Mines and Energy still consider the idea to be foolishness7 }'R. SPEAKER : The hen. Premier. PPEHIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to say that that is a totally erroneous intonation given in that question. MR. ROWE: It is in the paper. 5822

Tape No . 2149 Nil - 3 PREl<'IER ~IO()RES: The fact is that we have had no proposals from any OPEC countries re~arding Come By Chance. If we do we ~~11 gladly give our position on it , I will go further and say, Sir , t hat at this particular time and for the last fe,~ years there have heen lots of weird and wonderful people who have suggested that possibly there Has money available in the Middle f.ast ern countries for all kinds of purposes . '~. R0SP.~TS: All they waat is a finders' fee in advance. PRf;}'IF.~ t11'l0P.ES: That is all, yes. But they, Si r, I would suggest we 'rouJ d be very silly indeed if we took thP.rn seriously. ~. ROWE: A supplementary , Mr. Speaker. 5823

April 27, 1976 Tape 2150 PK - 1 HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. ROIVE: One of the local newspapers, Mr. Speaker, is quoted as saying "The Premier is receptive to the idea". Has the Premier been in consultation or negotiations with any of these groups? And is he receptive to anything in this regard? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. rREMIER MOORES: The Premier has not been in touch with any of these groups, Mr. Speaker.

I think it is fair to say that any offer of money availability,whether it is in the Department of Finance or· in any other department,has to be checked out just to the reliability of it and exactly what is meant. But the fact is to my knowledge right now there are no direct negotiations between this government and any middle Eastern Country regarding money for any purpose. MR. ROWE: Well,is it correct to say that - a supplementary - the Premier was misquoted in the paper? PREMIER MOORES: Who? MR. ROHE: Is it correct to say - PREMIER MOORES: No. Of course not. MR.

ROWE: Well you were - if I could just finish my question. PREMIER MOORES: The statement fror the paper, Mr. Speaker, I just quoted what my position has been from the beginning, and if anything other than that was in the paper it was a misquote. MR. ROWE: \~ell, Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. The Premier was quoted as saying, "He was receptive to the idea." Now what I am trying to find out is whether negotiations are going on directly with these countries through the Premier's office or through the receivers? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I thought I had answered that question in that, if there was money available and it was definitely proven that there was actual money available,of course we would be receptive to talking to whoever had the money available. But as of yet it has not surfaced. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. Minister of Fisheries. Can the minister inform the House if he has received any

April 27, 1976 Tape 2150 PK - 2 report or how is the enquiry going with the R .C .N.P. into the alleged fraud in the gear programme of the Department of Fisheries? :1R. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. P.ON. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I think that question would more appropriately he directed to my colleague, the Minister of Justice. CAPT. WINSOR: -------- Hr. Speaker, well I will direct the question to the hon. the Premier. Would the hon. Premier,in view of the delays, now give serious consideration to the setting up of a judicial enquiry to clear up this whole matter? ~I R. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I think the ~finister of Justice can answer the hon. member's original question, if it is agreeable, he can do it when I sit down. The ~act is I personally do not think a judicial enquiry is needed until the regular and normal course of justice has reached, you know, what they consider to be their final conclusion. But certainly I think the Minister of Justice can answer the question as to progess and where it sits. MR. HICKI'\AN: ~lould the hon. gentleman repeat the question because I did not hear it? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR"; ------- Yes.

I certainly will. The question put to the hon. ~l inister of Fisheries was, could he bring the House up to date on the progress of the enquiry taking place by the R.C.H.P., you know, dealing with the alleged fraud of the gear programme 1974-1975? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Justice . HON. T. A. HICJOIAN : Hr. Speaker, this investigation,which is being carried on by both the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Newfoundland Constabulary is, and has been since the investigation started,been given top priority from an investigative point of view. Six members, I repeat, six members of the Commerical Crime

Section of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, that is, it is referred to as the Fraud Squad but its proper designation is the Commerical Crime Section, six members of the Cornmerical Crime

Section of the R.C.M.P. since the investigation started has been giving this matter top priority in area s 5825

April 27, 1976 Tape 2150 PK - 3 Mr. P.iclanan: that are somewhat, that may ·be remote. They are also using in addition to these six men members of R.C.M.P. Detachments whenever and wherever the workload permits. It is a fairly lengthly investigation,of necessity , because it involves the comparing of every account of every fisherman in Mewfoundland who had dealings with the Departm~nt of Fisheries, as well as with suppliers. 5826

April 27, 1976, Tape 2151,Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: The RCMP and the Newfoundland Constabulary were very considerably aided by being able to use the computer services of the RCMP in Ottawa, which was availed of early this year and which enabled them to get a computered print-out on all of the claims that are presently in the hands of,or w~re dealt with by the Department of Fisheries.· Without that, if we had not been able to avail of computer services, that is the kind of an investigation that would last for years.

In addition to the very intensive work that is being carried out by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Newfoundland Constabulary have two full-time members of that force investigating,and they are assisted in their investigation by the Auditor General's Department. One auditor is working full-time and there is also one, a supervisor, who is actively engaged. I simply want to assure the House that the investigation is being carried on unhindered, unhampered but with absolute vigor and with the number of men assigned to it that the investigation indicates are required at this time. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, because we have listened with interest to the minister and I think it is fair to say that the rest has obviously done the minister a lot of good. I wonder if he could tell us just when the investigation which he outlines, you know, at some length- he obviously anticipated a a question and that was a right and proper thing for him to do and to prepare himself - I wonder if he could tell us when the investigation began and if could tell us how long he expects it will go on before it is resolved one way or another? MR.

HICKMAN : I cannot recall the date that the investigation commenced, but from recollection I think it was in August of last year that it commenced. There is no conceivable way to get an indication at this time as to when the investigation will be concluded because it is a massive investigation and it is being done - MR. ROBERTS: How many claims are involved? 5827

April 27, 1976, 'l'ape 2151, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: Well, there - About 10,000? MR.. HICKMAN: There are many thousands of claims involved. Now this does not mean - please: I do not want anyone to indicate that - MR. ROBERTS: No, but does every one of them have to be looked at? MR. HICKMAN: Every claim has to be taken and matched with that of the supplier. That is a massive job in itself. MR. ROBERTS : That will not in itself - that may only be one kind of fraud. MR. HICKMAN: That in itself indicates the nature, Mr. Speaker, of the time-consuming efforts that are required by the police.

I would not under any circumstances wish anyone to read into what I am saying here that there are thousands of people who are guilty of any crime. But when you start an investigation you must start from square one, and the most competent people to do that are the police,aided in their investigation by auditors, So they start off by matching. This is why I said in the beginning that without the computer time being made available to us by the RCMP in Ottawa - MR. ROBERTS: Were they all fed into the computer? MR. HICKMAN: They were all fed into the computer. MR. ROBERTS: That must have taken a lot of time. MR.

HICKMAN: That took a fair amount of time. They were fed in in December and January, as I recall it. If we did not have the computer services available, they would be there this time next year still going through matching grants to the suppliers. MR. ROBERTS: But that only shows that the man got what the company was paid for. That is all that would show. MR. HICKMAN: That is the first step of the investigation. When that is matched,then you start moving forward, And, Mr. Speaker, I am sure bon. gentlemen will appreciate that where there is a police investigation going on it is encumbent on me to be very 5828

April 17, l976, Tape 2151, Page 3-- anb _MR. HICKMAN : careful and very guarded in what I say , because under no circumstances do I want to create the impression that there are canv thousands of Newfoundlanders involved in thisj or secondly, to sny anything which might in any way prejudice a person who, at the conclusion of the investigation, may he charged with an offence . 1 think that is a far as I can go. HR. ROBFRTS: It is a good point, a very good point , hut if the minister would allow, ~r. Speaker, if it is in order, a further supplementary.

A very good point about the pre1udicing of people who are not charged with anything and may very well not be charged with anything, because one thing is sure and certain, if there are 5,000 of these claims there may be some that are fraudulent and there may not . 5829

April 27, 1976 Tape 2152 IB-1 }'J' • ROBERTS : But there are many thousands that are not fraudulent. We can agree on that. But in vie~T of the fact that officers of the Mounted Police are going about portions of the Province - I have heard of some who happened to he going down through my district. I have had some phone calJR from constituents of mine who assure me their conscjences are clear and would like me to tell the magistrate so when the t:tme comes. ' llut, you knoll', :tt is widely l<nown that members of the Fraud Squad are travelling.

Indeed they have confiscated, I believe is the correct term, a number of nets from constituents of mine and I suspect :l.n other districts in the Province as well. There is some obvious pub)ic interest in that every person in the area knows the Mounties are there,and he knows what they are doing,and he knows every fisherman he has talked to and so forth. There is some public interest obviously in having a speedy end put to this matter and whoever is found guilty of anything to stand trial and whoever should not be charged -you know, end it. ~. SPEAKEP: Order, please: }!R.

ROBEF.TS: Th:ls is a lengthly question. }~. SPEAKER: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. gentleman but I think he will probably agree that it is a lengthly

preamble. HP. ROBERTS: I think you are r1ght, :!'lr. Speaker, and I am grateful to you. The point is can the minister indicate whether there is any way in which he can assure the public the matter will be concluded as quickly as poss1ble? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. ~inister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Yes, }'r. Speaker.

I have no hesitancy at all in giving that assurance because the instructions went out from me to the nirector of Purlic Prosecutions,who I know in turn passed them on to the police, th:ls is 1~hy there are such a large number of police involved in this 1nvestigation, that the 1nvestigation was to proceed as quick] y as possible and that when the invest:l .gation is completed and referred to the law officers of the Crown, that any charges that are to be laid, are to be laid without delay. 5830

April 27, 1976 April 2152 IB-2 MP. ROBERTS: 1ole11, !Tr. Speaker, I thank the minister. A further supplementary. The nd.nister has told us the investigation - I believe he said he was speaking fro!'\ memory - started last August and well and good. Coul~ the minister tell us how the matter came to light? Has that at the time there "as the incident out at the building of the fire and subsequent police investigations 1 or how did H come to light then? l"P.. HICKHAN: I think I am p,oing to direct that to the hon. gentleman - NR. PnBET'TS: Well, to the former ~<inister of Fisheries then. ~ql..

SPEAKE 1' : The hon. l-':lnister of }'ines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, at that time, in August, 1975 I was the ~<inister of Fisheries. As I have said before, as a result of a fire in the Viking Buil<ling,which fire occurred under suspicious circumstances, a check was made to see if any files ~,·ere missing as a result of that fire. One file turned out to be missing dealing l<'ith a certain area of the Province. However there was a duplicate of that file available.

In checking into that file to see if there could be any connection between it and th:l.s mysterious fire, it was d:fscovered upon investigation into all the claims made in that area that there ' was reason to suspect that there was hanky-panky in that area. }~. ROBEPTS: The file had to do with gear claims in that area? 1T. CROSBIE: Yes,it haa to ~o w:fth the gear claims in the 1974 prop,ramme. As a result of this investigation by the Department of Fi~;heries we then called in the ~<inister of Justice's department lmo put the C:ITl in and the PC:~ on the matter. 1'1'. POBERTS: ~·r.

Speaker, if the hon. gentlman would allow us to follow this line of quest:! on:fng. }T • SPEA..'<ER: A further supplementary. 1<Tl. ROBERTS: AJl rf.ght. It is a supplementary, Sir. I want to be precise. I think it is an important point, · and the minister has set jt stra:fght. It was the fire in the ":!king Ruil~ing that brought the matter to light. The moment the mini.ster knew about it,then he got on 5831

April 27, 1976 Tape 2152 111-3 MP. R.OBEFTS: the phone or wrote a memorandum to his c~lleague, the ~inister of .Justice. Is that the correct situation, Sir? HP. SPEAKER : ~IR. CROSBIE: The hon. ~inister of ~ines and Energy. Well,we cannot discover any connection between the fire and these events. I am just saying that because of this fire which started - ~-· :ROBERTS: There is a temporal connection 1but no other. ~'R. CFOSBIE: Yes, right. There is no other connection that we know of.

But as a result of it since there was a file missing, then it was decided to have a very close look at that area and what had happened there. That close look discovered. certain things that appeared to be alarming. As a result the ~<inister of Just:l .ce asked to put the ern and his people onto the matter. ~. SPF..AKE"P.: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~. NEARY: A supplementary to the Minister of Mines and :Energy, Sir.

Would the minister tell the House if the minister or his predecessor read the 1974 report of the Auditor General dealing with the gear replacement programme and the gear bounty programme, and if so 1vhy the minillter did not act on the 'rery strong recommendations and observations that the Auditor General made in his 1974 report. y.p_. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of }lines and F.nergy. Yn. CROSBIE: ~r. Speaker, I have read every Auditor-General's report since 1972 and in fact I might have read a lot of them before 1972. So I certainly read that one.

The Auditor General's report for 1974 does not deal with this special gear replacement programme of 1974-1975. It deal~'< ~~ith the ordinary year to year gear sub5idy programme. I cannot remember exactly but I certainly would have read it 5832

April 27, 1D76 Tape No. 2153 NM - 1 •rn. CROSBIE: And that would have- I cannot remember exactly, but I certainly would have read it and if I was Minister of Fisheries at the time I would have asked my officials to check out what the Auditor General said and take whatever steps were necessary to improve the situation if they found anything to pe wrong. But his report does not deal with ttis sp~cial programme. It deals with the ordinary gear subsidy programme. ~~. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ?~. SPF.AKE~: A supplementary. ~~.

NEARY: Do I interpret from the minister's answer then that the investigation presently being carried on by the RCMP or the ern also involves the ordinary gear replacement programme and not just the emergency programme? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Mines and Energy. 1-fF.. CROSBIE: l"r. Speaker, the present investigation deals 'nth the special 1974 fishing gear replacement programme where gear was replaced by the Government of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada, one hundred per cent of the cost of any gear lost was replaced and that is what the investigation deals with. HI'.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for IUndsor - Buchans. l-<17. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, to the ?~inister of Consumer Affairs, or the Actin!!; ?<inister of Consumer Affairs; does thP mechanics exist within the Department of Consumer Affairs, the present department as '~e know it 1 to monitor increases in the cost of goods and services, in the price of goods and services in this Province, increases far in excess of the Price and· Wage Control Board's requirements? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. l!inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment.

MR. 11URPHY: The only machinery we have that monitors prices are the four or five staff we have that do a survey perhaps every six '~eeks across,and then •>1hat "1e do then ••e bring them to the attention of Hr. Noel Hurley,who is the federal representative here. We have no pmver whatever to roll back prices or to establish prices of any kind, and basically what we have been doing with the staff that ''e have 5833

April 27, 1976 Tape No. 2153 N}f- 2 ~~. 1'1URPHY_: is just the same, making regular checks throughout the Province at regualar intervals and seeing if there is any great ups and downs and what-not and basically that is it.

Their reports are on file,! think since I went in there in November sometime, I think there are three ~~e have done right across the Province and if the bon. member would like to see them, the fluctuations and what not, and on that I am verv happy to report that the last ~ne we did the price of food generally right across the Province except perhaps -have gone down,you know, as compared to - if they had not gone down at least they remained very stable as compared to the fluctuations that were occurring previously. MR. SPEAKEJI.: A supplementary and then I will recognize the hon. member for Burgeo -Bay a'Espoir.

MR. FLIGHT: To the minister again; when the Public Utilities Board,for instance,approves an increase in a price for a service rendered,are there any lines of communications with the AIB, l~th Ottawa, any provincial lines to indicate that thev bave just approved something that is far in excess of the price and wage--controls or do we have to take pot luc~ on that it would be brought to their attention? Mr.

Speaker, if you would permit me, I am referring to a specific price increase in this Province that I am myself aware of this past two weeks where a cost of a services has gone from $7 to $10, a price increase of $3 over $7. Now there is no evidence - we know there is lots of evidence of wage control in this Province but there is no evidence at all of price controls. ~m.

SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. 1m. 1'1URPHY: Has the bon. member brought it to the attention of any of my officials so as we could check~ I do not really know at the present moment what the hon. gentleman is speaking of,but if he feels there is an unwarranted increase in anything we will look into the thing, If we cannot solve it at this level,at least we will go to the next level, the Federal Government,who have that power to roll back or to establish and I would be only too happy anytime because that is 5834

April 27, 1976 Tape No. 2153 N~ - 3 1-'R. ~'URPHY: we are there for. We receive literally hundreds of phone calls a month dealing with different thing. Some things we can deal with,but basically the actual settinR of prices is without our control entirely. But if there is anything special that you feel, or anything else,just feel free to let me know. }~. FLIGHT: One further supplementary, Mr. Speaker, please. I would like to follow this line of questioning. YR. S"PE.AKER: I hope it will be brief because I did indicate to the other hon. member that he would be recognized next. ~. FLIGHT: I will be very brief, Sir.

It is supplementary but it is to the Premier, Will the Premier advise the House if he is now thinking along the lines of establishing a Department of Consumer Affairs to protect the public of Newfoundland from the type of thing I have jUst referred to,and it is going on every day in every community in Newfoundland, ·sir? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER MOORES: The answer is, Hr, Speaker, yes. As it is printed in the estimates there has to be some minor restructuring done.

The Consumer Affairs Pivision,as it is now,has to be beefed up to take a more meanineful role,as the minister has indicated recently as well. The ans1ver is yes, that consumer protection is important. I suppose it is negleeted, it is very difficult to get fully covered,but certainly a Provincial Consumer Affairs Department would have to work very closely with the federal counterpart because it is possibly the weakness in the Anti-Inflation Board's efforts to date and it is something that I think concerns every member of the House. 5835

April 27, 1'176. Tape 21511 RH - 1 }ffi. SPEAKER: The member for Burgeo-Bay d•8spoir. MR. R. SH1MONS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Tourism. As he is aware the extended caribor season closes on the Labrador Coast this Friday, I believe, April 3~. It has been brought to my attention there are some people who, because of the gas shortage earlier and so on, have not been able to obtain their caribou.

Houle! the minister consider giving permission, if permission is required, permission to allow these people to charter an aircraft, at their own expense of course, to get into the carihou country for the purpose of obtaining a moose or a caribou and flying bhe caribou back? lffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. '!-!R. T. lUCKEY: Mr. Speaker, we gave a two week extension, I believe , to those people because of shortage of gas and because of weather conditions in the area that prevented them from getting in. Now I have not received any representation from them.

I certainly will take the matter that the member raises to my officials to see just what the situation is. I cannot make a commitment at this time. I think we' have to stop somewhere. If there is meat in the woods that has to be taken out, of course, I suppose that is a special situation, a situation we certainly will look at. }fR. SPEAKER: 11R. SIMMONS : I will allow one supplementary. A supplementary. The minister may not have completely understood. I was not requesting an extention on their behalf at all, but requesting permission to use an aircraft. There is no meat in the woods at the moment.

It is just a question of going in and hunting and then bringing out the meat. I do not want to leave the impression that there is meat there to be transported out at this point in time. My question really was would the minister give permission,if it is required, for these people to obtain an aircraft at their own expense, to go in, do the hunting, not to do it from an aircraft, but to get to the site in the interior by aircraft and then to transport the meat out by aircraft. That is the question.

I wonder in view of the shortage of time would he undertake to advise me soon so I could be in touch with these people. 5836

:\pd.l 27, l<l7f- . Tape ?.1.~4 RH - ?. '1t • Sl'EA!<F.R: T"!e hon . ~·inister of Tou ris m. "R • ni C: K1"Y : !~~11, ~l r. Speal<er, it woulcl he an unprecedentec! step as I understanrl it1 l)ut certainlv if thP~e is a very difficult situation ex istin g of course 1 1~111 be glad to take the thing unrler consideration to see what can he done. 1 will report hack to the Rouse. tm. NEA~Y: ~r. Speaker, - 'IR. SPEAKER: 1 am sorry, but th.e time has expired. orJ>F.ns OF riTE nAY: On .motion that the llous e resolve itself into rommitee of Supply . 'lr. Speaker left the C11air .

C:C'~~II'ITEF OF SIIPPL Y : 'IR • CllAIR}'.A ~ : Order , nlease ! Social Services, 801-01. Jrm~ . C. llRrTT: "r . C:ha1 man, it is ~·ith I! p. r eat deal of persona l satisfaction tlli\t 1 rls<> for the first time as a minister ancl as Hinister of Social Servicl's to :introrluce the estimates of this dPpartment for the finnncial vear J07n-77. I think that prohnhly this is one of the rlPparements thnt most peonle know very little about. It has a stateMent attached to it as bir, as this buildinR .

I wouJd like to take ~.'hat time is nPcessarv to ou tline 1~ha t we have accomplished in the last three or four years and rossibly what we hope to accomplish in the next two or three. You ~~ill recall, Sir, that the Throne Speech to open thi.s session of the legislature spol-.e very briefl y ahout Social Services . In effect what it said was that a good foundation had been laid for the development of Social SPrvices in this Province . Also, the only reference to Social Serv)ces ifl the ~urlttet Sneech was what can he consideretl, I suppos e, is Rood news re~3rding the ten ~er cent increase i~ rates. 5837

April 27, 1976 Tape 2155 IB-1 YR. BT'ETT: A great deal needs to be said about developments in Social Services since this administration took office in 1972. Hhile credit for ne1¥ progra111!'1es must go to the government as a whole, and of course to this House for its endorsement of the programmes, I believe that special reco~ition must go to two of my colleagues, the ?-'inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment and also the }<inister of Tourism, ~lho were the 1'inisters of Social Services during the period of the greatest change. I think it is important that I say something about ~mat Social Services are.

In this way I think you will get an under­ standing of the role of this department and of its aims and objectives. Social Services are provided for people in need of proteetion, support and rehabilitation. 'J'hey are aimed at strengthening and preserving individual and family functioning. In other words,the ail'1 of the department is to keep families together,and aged and handicapped people in their o~m homes as long as possible.

Social Services are based on the philosophy that the family remain the basic un:l.t in our society and for this reason we believe that Social Services oup;ht to be heavily col!l!Tlitted to preserving the family tmit. Social Servi.ces may be viewed in ter111s of the people who need them. The fi.rst group in need of Social Services are children. I refer to children vhose parents or relatives are unable or unw:llling to properly care for them. Emphasis must be placed on providing services of a counselling, day care, or homemaker nature to enable parents or relatives to provide proper care.

When this fails we have to provide alternate sources of care, for example foster homes, adoptions, juvenile correctional institutions and so on. The second group in need of social services are families who are able with help to maintain their own living arrangements. The single, most i111portant social service for these people is an 5838

April 27, 1976 '!'ape 2155 1]1-2 l'P... llFETT: a~e~uate income maintenance programme. Sir, there are literally thousands of familie s ••ho need no service other than aclequate income support tC' rr;J.tntain the family unit. Ho,.,,ever there are many hunrlre~s f'f other families '·'ho need services in arl~ition to income support. These servi ce>s ap;ain are services such as counselling, homf'.maker an~ employment related servir.es. The th trd ?roup of people v1ho need our services are adults, st:U 1 ] :fving in their m;•n homes, •'ho are unable to properly care for themselves.

In cases of this kind we find that homemaker services are often needed to enable the relat:l.ves to provide proper care. However '•'hen these kinds of services are not adequate ,.e have to look to the alternative type of social service. This means placement in boarding homes and nursin?. hol!'es such as the Hayles !lome "re have here in St. John's, llarbour Lotlge, Hillview Lot1y,e and the other instHut ions. Sir, I v1ould like to l".ention that there is one social service in particular that is needed by all three groups. That is the holl'emaker service. This is very significant.

Romemaker services are often the means of enahlinp. chilnren to rer.~ain >~ith their pa:rents. They are oftf'n the me;~ns of pre"enting family breakup and t1Jey are cPrtainlv thE> !'lean R of keering a p-eel. and handicapped people in their 0'•71 homes ;>_s long as possible. Sir, this government is cotrmitten to the pl)ilosophy that "llternative types of care, such as extensive :institutional care, should only be usec1 "'hen absolutely necessary. Hhen this governmePt took office in 1972 it saw the need for a great expansion of social services in this Province.

The government felt that its fjrst step shoulc be to get as many employable social assistance recipients as possible into jobs or vocati anal train1np.;. I am extremely happy to report, l'r. Chairl'l'an, that phenomenPl results have been achieved We have created a new rlivision 1~ithin the depprtment called the Employment Opportunit:f_es n1vision and 3,?.00 recjpients have been placed in employment or 5839

t'p rll 27 , 1976 Tape 2155 16-3 l'" . !1PE'M': rrnin:lnr. r h rNt f!l tl-e ···c>rk c>f th1!1 •!ivi.sior. Tn f01ct t he 01hle­ hc>c' iNl ~<ndnl n!'Ri.lltnnc:e c:1se loncl has been rec1ucetl dramatically <>ince this rove rnr1pnr took office . ·•r:. r.llt.Ir;: t.::: ~ rr'er , please! !-lnu)c' tht> ll'el'lbers nn 11'Y left be n bi.t 111nr e qniet,please? ''I'. BNTT: "i.nce April, 1Q75 Ne have place t' 1,151\ social assif:tance rerip ients in jobs. This ~eans that these 1 , 158 fanilies are no Jonr,er dnwi n? t,oel f11re checks . \lhat t4as that date ar.ain? 5840

April 27, 197fi Tape 2156 PK - 1 HR. BPJ:TT: Since April 1, 1975. lffi. ROBERTS: The last twelve months . 'ffi. BRETT: I beg your pardon? ~'R. ROBERTS: The last twelve months. HR. ROBERTS: Would the minister have a breakdown by - Mr. Chairman. I assume the minister does not mind being interrupted because he is obviously reading from some notes, and we will not interrupt his train of thought. Would the rcinister have a month to month table! Those 1,20(1 jobs in t1velve months is 100 jobs a month. But I am interested in knowing whether it is fairly uniform or whether it is higher in some months than in others.

And similarly,or clang the same line, would the minister be able to tell the Committee h0\ 1 many of these 1-:ere permanent jobs? I ask that because I woulc' inagine that a certain number of the!"- at leGst 1vould be LIP projects or even OFY 1-1ell possibly, but more than lil~ely LIP projects or projects of that nature and while '·le do recognize, you knmv, 1, 200 jobs is 1 ,200 jolJS and is to lH~ welcomed anc:1. certainly not to be sneered at 1 1 ;ur if'tercstecl ]n b!owing how many of them are reasonably pen;w.nent and how many Federal Government funded. what amount to make-work projects? ' Hell, ~~r.

Chairman, I do not have a table as such in ny notes, but I will undertake, if there is one available, to get it before "'e clue up the estiT'lates of this department. And again, 'lr. Ch<~irman, tbcre may be further explanation here. The ans~Ver to the hon. member's questir>n may come further on in my notes. Some of these jobs ~re in conmunity · self-help projects which are initiated hy the Enployment Opportunities ni"ision of my department. As indicated 1 the principal objective of this division is gettin:c social assl.stance recip'ients out to work.

Self-help projects <vere carried out last year in the communities of Bunyan's Cove, PhiJlips T!ead, St. Patrick's and llartlett's Harbour, and in each case resulted in the provision of an adequate supply of fresh water to ~omes in these communities. These projects are deliberately labour 5841

April 27, 1976 Tape 2156 PK - 2 Mr. Erett: intensive, and I might say they often accomplish what otherwise would require much more costly capital investment. And these results can he ~eal eye openers for t local government when it comes to getting needed public work's projects done economically. Apart entirely from the value of these projects, what delights me , Sir, is the fact that this work is being by social assistance recipients as an alternative to id~eness. And I can tell you, Sir, that the men themselves are proud of their accomplishments.

I will be the first to acknowledge that these self-help projects are for a limited target population, and they are not to be viewed as an answer to the unemployment problems in the Province. But they are good examples of employment opportunities that are sort of under our noses and crying out to be done.

I am rather disappointed that the general public has not been told more about this kind of rehabilitative work that is going on in my department. vfuen one thinks of this department the first thing that comes to mind is the short term able-bodied recipient, and very little thought is ever given to the creative work and the rehabilitative type of work that is done in the department.

During the past two years you have heard a lot about the new Social Assistance Programme, and the next major step that was undertaken by this government was to introduce a completely new Social Assistance Programme which provided adequate support levels for everybody in need of assistance. I myself was a welfare officer in this Province for ten years, and I can assure you that I witnessed lots of poverty. And I am proud and happy that this government saw fit to grant substantial rate increases to social assistance recipients.

Only those peeple, Sir, who live below the poverty level can know the real meaning of poverty. Social assistance recipients live at the lowest end of the scio-economics scale. They know what it means to have an inadequate diet. They know what it means to have to deny their children boots and skates, pocket money to go to 5842

April 27, 197fi Tape 2156 rK - 3 ~lr. llrett: dances and buy bicycles ancl lots of other things that a l!l.ornal child have that they do not have. And I '~ould say in some cases thf'y know ~<'hat it means for their wives to have only one dress a year, and to get right down to it they probably even know Hhat it meap_s not to have a dime to put in the church collection plate. 5843

April 27, l<l76. MR. BRETT: Tape 2157 RH - 1 Of course, Sir, everybody knows about the ond case of abuse. But I would like to assure this House that they are relatively few in number. A new Social Assistance Programme introduced on January 1, 1974 provided greatly increased social assistance rates. A very important feature of the new programme Nas the elimination of lower rates for needy, able-bodied persons. Everybody knows that the old Social Assistance Programme discriminated against ~~~>le-bodied. The old programme was concerned more about the reason for the need tthan it was about the need itself.

In effect,the programme said that if we do not like the reason why you are in need then we will give you less,~ut if we like the reason then we will give you more. As a consequence the handicapped and the blind, the sic!' and the widowed received higher rates than the short-term able-bodied with the same number of children,who could not find a job no matter how hard he tried. Now, Sir, this was the kind of discrimination that the new programme erased. Mr. Chairman, let us compare the old social assistance rates of ~arch, 1972 with those of April 1, 1976.

In March, 1Cl72 an able-bodied man with a ~dfe and three children living in his own home received a maximum of $1l•S a month. If the same man were unable to work he ~rould have received $210 a month. This was back in March of 1972, In April of 1976, the same case, the same man whether able or unable to work would receive $301 a month. This represents an increase of 107 per cent, in the able-bodied case,and forty-three per cent increase in the other case. ~m. NEARY: The man by himself? MR.

BRETT: This is an able-bodied man 'dth a \vife and three children, a typical family of five. 1-ffi.NI'.ARY: A man, his \vife and three children. MR. BRETT: Right, right. It \vould seem reasonable to expect that a more generous Social Assistance Programme might attract more recepients. However this did not happen,which speaks volumes, I suppose, for the moral fibre of the pe9ple of this Province. I am sure that almost everybody said, "Here goes the case load! 11 Of course, the reverse happened, as I pointed out very briefly in this House on a couple of occasions. The new programme also 5844

April ?.7, 1"1 7,;. Tape 2157 RH - 2 introduced an incentive scheme which was desif,Ued to l'lake work more attractive than Social Assistance. Under the old programme Social ~ Assistance recepients were taxed 101') per cent for every dollar they earned,and under the ne~" programme they are allmiTen to rP.tain a significant percentage of their earnings. It varies as the earnings go up. This was an encouragement to <10rk more and, Sir, the results of the programme, I think, have vindicated our judgement.

On January 1, 1975, a year after the new programme was introduced, I·Te increased the rates in relation to the cost of living. That increase 'iTas 1?.. 7 per cent ann it ~-1as granted to all recepients, short-term and long•term. We felt that this was the only appropriate rationale for increasing social assistance rates. This government does not believe, did not believe, ''ill never helieve in granting increases in social assistance rates on an ad hoc hasis. I do not need to elaborate nn that. I a.m sure everybody luwws what I mean.

There are some myths about welfare which T "~<•ould lH·.e to discuss for a few minutes and hopefully dispel, myths with regard to the social assistance programme. One of the problems, of course, is that of misunQerstanding. The services provided hy this department,as well as the thousands of people throu)!;hout the Province served by the cepartments,are grossly misunderstood. There are several myths around ahout the service and the people served. I would like to identify tHo or three of them. The first one is that the people liTho receive social assistance are the same people who receive it year in and year out.

That is,the same people are on year after year after year. This is not true. The people who receive assistance because of unemployment chanp;e nramatically e~ch month. Hany of them receive assistance for only one month out of twelve. Jn fact,ove .r half of them receive it for only one, two or three months. Jn the case of the pe~ple receiving assistance for reasons other than unemployment, the turnover is not as significanttbut there is nevertheless at least 11 twenty-five pc>r cent turnover in a ye;,r. AnotlH~r mvtl1 is that people who receive social assistance are contented with their lot, they 5845

April 27, 1976. ~m . BimTT: Tape 2157. RH- 3 like things t 11e way they are and they consider themselves to be fairly t<ell off. That af'(ain, Sir, is not true. As I stated earlier I t<as a welfare officer mvself for ten years . I do not recall ever m~etin p, one such person ,and I s.aw a lot for a period of. ten years . The odd person might give the impression that he is contented with his lot. 1 belie ve that everybody on social assistance would rather not be on it . They would rather be independent like you and !, workin~ ~eople. They would rather have a job, 5846 ,.. ,.. .•

fpdl 27, 197(, Tape 2158 11\-1 'T. nrrn-r: ----- they •1nulcl rarhE>r 't<~V<' a ni <'P hn1•se, they wc>ul (1 rather h;.ve 11 <'"T, and 1•r like the nnlinary citizen. 1 realize thAt o;on•e c>f the"" clo 1 ~ ave cnrs l•ut r.tC\St of' rh£'r· <'o nnr. The tl::lr<' l"yth, !iir, i$ that people on sodnl <!ssi:c;t.,ncP. nre lAzy ancl t'o not wmt to ~·crk.

This is one that rets ry clander up <'very t ir.e t hear j t . 1\j.P;!n I 1·1ant to 1\SsurP thi5 llnnse thnt th:f !I is not trnC' . '"'·ere 1'3Y l>e n very, verv ST'I'll percentage but generally As already indicated, we "nvP. <'ennnstr;.terl since t h:ls rovernnent tool · nfficc that hunrre-ls nn :.ori:>1 assist:mcc ir. !'In indication thnt thev arp not interestecl In rctt:lnl' off it. lt r:~Crcly l"e('n!'\ that .qJthour.h ~.·e have h.1d a lot oF Rllcc:es:c; "C' h:we not ;:u; ;vPt bee n 100 per cent s uccessful, and of cnurse J •'o nC'It knc>t' "F 11ny project that -!s 100 per cent succe<;sful. t\nnther myth th01t •1se<1 tn he <>roun<' I'M; thnt pPOfl] e on :tSSi 'lti\n ce C'u~ht tn he ;laid hy V('UCher beC3\I'l(' if they r;erc ~iven cn ~ r r"ey 1~n111 <' !'Pc:>n<l it ;tn the be('r parlor s .

I c:an relT'ernher as o velf11rt> c>fficer th:>t t l-<>y VNilri CC'I"'e in Pn<' you ha<' your bool : ancl you wrnte •··h11t thPy cnuJ d yet for food, uhat they couJ it ret for cl othinr :tn<l ~n nn nnc\ sn on . '"'hen •·•e <lee ire<' to pny tl•ell' by chl'ck,nr,.,in rc"rle ~:t11rrert tC'I pus!1 the panic button.

The point T .'l'll trvinr t<' r::l:e, Si r, "!' ~c:-r i11Hstrnte<' by C'ur frrpre:-~i"n~ "f J=:ncfnJ servl<'<'" :m•' t he pP.('In1e •·e !'c>rve in relation to l•o"' t•ell Pe renl l:: I< no•: thell". r.nr e>:PI"pl e, j :' I'C have a relative receivin:- sN~i:t) ,,ssfs tancc, tJC ;uP likely to J..nOt•' exactly "'hat kind of pE>n•nn he io; 11nd the l· tnd n~ hel!' th.•t tl•e <lel'arl:r'eot is ·r ivinr that ra r~ 1cula r rersnn . ln these eAsel! 9(). 9 per cent of the time ye "ill say that the v 11re not re ttinR enour.h. nu t on the other rand ~.-hen •·•e think ir tcrrs of peorle t-•ho '•'C' c:'o nnt kll('l~·, stron:-ers , anc •~e ro not l: not~ ·+:-r ~ervicc~ they nrl! beinr ~iven , our il"pre!'sion ic ('lften one of 5847

Tape 2158 IB-2 NP. Bl>E'IT: cloing a lot f.or people '~ho clo not really need it. That is the essence oi' the misunclerstanding that I referrec! to ea.rUer and I sincerely hope that this presentation on these myths has helpecl in some measure to clear up some of the misunderstanding. nay care and homeMaker services this is an important part of the department. T.Je are committed, Mr. Chairman, to the principle that preventive and supportive social services must be viewed as priority and vre have begun to move in this direct:l.on.

Everybocly is aware that during the last session of the legislature we introducec'! a new Day Care and Homemaker Service Act ~rhich will provide the framework for the c'!evelopment and hopefully the growth of this service in this Province. I ~ould like to say a special word about what is happening in respect to these t~ro servi.ces, day care and homemaker. The demanc1 for c'!ay care services has r,rm.rn, it has gro~m tremendously, almost alarmingly in the last couple of years. Really there are two types.

One type is what I refer to personally as the baby-sitting kind of service . ~his type is sort of employment related. It is a service required by parents who want to go out to work and have their children looked after by the day,and for the most part the demand for this kind of service is coming from people who want to improve their life style by increasing their income. It is often a case of both parents working. I might say, ~·r. Chairman, that it is for this type of day care that the demanc1 is greatest and it comes from all over the Province.

I suppose it is because the service is sought by people in the middle and upper middle income brackets. As members of this hon. House well know tt.ese are the classes of people who are most effective in getting r.rhat they '"ant. They are most verbal. They have the most clout. Th:ls government has taken a very definite position with respect to requests for financial support for baby-sittine day care services, as I call it. w@ do 5848

Tl'.- j nrc thin!: ch.1~ rrvPrn~t~ent shoulcl he int<' th<' lnu~ine,;s of f:!n:mcinr. :!tin tfml rf r':.>v c<~rc sP-rvicr. Pe hel"ieve th~c :if pcor Je Wl'nt th:!s " t'o not t !linl· :m vl-nc'y in this House ~·1.11 <'1~;nrree ,.,1 ch r.1e - I cannot r.ce u~in!'. r 1:c t;-xpnvers dcHars to pr ovjde" •ulby-r1ttjop.. service fo r reorle ll"' rhP Sto,onr, $ 15.01)0 or $2'),')0'1 :i.ncome bnH:kE"t.

There 1'~"""\'t>r , T c:!rfinitcl v do fP.eJ that ;n\•ernl"ent has ·' re:c;ponsihHity H vr n rc ;-oin!' t o :tHo" people to operate thfs lt inrl cf ri:w cl\re crrvire t'IPn •·c h:we to rc;-ulate the stnnd:ord~L Tncitlental1y, <::fr , rhc .-rjv:oce .. ecr.or is ,.,ready significnntly involver in the r rnv ir.fon of rite ba":• - sitti.nr ldn<! of t!ay care serv:lce . Tn fact t h!'TC' ll T!' 5849

April 27, 1976 Tape 2159 PK - 1 Nr. Erett : ------- approx :h.,atcly t'~ enty-five, nm1 I be] ieve t'..renty-six; there was a new one openecl at the University recently. So there are t'•rnty- six now, I think, such c!ay can! centres licenced in the Province. And we intend to leave the provision of this service to the private sector. We have no intentions of getting into financing this type of service. l!ov7evcr, we are involverl,anrl we will stay involved,in protectin~ anc improving the standard of service that these priv8te day care services will provide.

The new Day Care and Homemakers Services Act will set stanclard s ancl ensure that the standards are met. Only people who meet the stanc1ards "ill be grantee! licences,or be allowed to retain licences. Now the second kind of day care service is what I will cnll a developmental type of service. And, Sir, He sec a great need for this kind of service thrnughout the Province, but particularly in the larger urban areas.

And this service is to children who are deprived socially, emotionally, intellectually and physically, and who are being neglected or on the verge of being neglected, whose parents are uncler great stress. Day care services in these situations can be a godsend. During the day the child is taken away fro m the stresses and strains of the home and exposed to a normal, healthy environment. This gives the mother a chance to collect her wits and to cope more effectively with her situation. And up to now, Sir, this is the only kind of service that government has been financing to a very limited extent.

However we have seen great benefits derived from it. For example, permanent separation of children from parents has been prevented in literally dozens of cases, and developing neglect situations have been more or less nipped in the bud. I am in receipt of a report from the day care centre Teach- A-Tot here in St. John's. It is very interesting, I wish that every member of the House will read it, probably it should be tabled. 5850

April 27, 197f Tape 2159 l'K - 2 ~~~E.;_ Sir, a very st:::-:.ct income rest is used to deterl'line uho qnali.fies for the:>e services that I have jnst been talking ahout:, ann that is on goverm'!ent account, We do not provide this service to people \vho can afford to purchase the service themselves, This is natural. Generally spealinr. the service is available only to the working poor and to social assistance recipients.

Jlm~ever, while this service is developMental,aimed at children who are deprived in some ~·!Ay, nevertheless there are a significant number of single parents HlJO :Jvail of this service for economic reasons and ~vho are enabled to enter gainful employment as a result. Now our involvement in day care services at the present time is confined to the one here at St. John's which is called Teach-A-Tot Children's Centre. This is a very highly efficient and a helpful service. Approximately fifty children are served at any given time during the year. Actually it is the only organized service of its kind in the Province.

We have not been asked to finance a similar service else~vhere in the Province, although we acknowledge that thi.s service is needed i.n several of the larger centres of population in the Province, and 1ve hope in time to see the service extended to those areas. Now let me go back over that. We have been requested to finance the babysitting type of day care centres in other parts of the Province, but not this type, the type of the St. John's Teach-A­ Tot . Now, Sir, a word or two about homemaker's services. 1'his is quite similar in nature and purpose to day care services, other than that it is extended to adult.

It is aimed primarily at l~eeping families together and keeping aged and handicapped people out of Jnstitution~ and in their 01m homes where they prefer to be. The secret to the success of the service lies with the homer:~aker herself. This is usually a very special type of woman, a woman \~ith ::1 lot of experience, probably in rearing a family or in providing 5851

April 27, 1971\ Tape 2159 PK - 3 1-tr. Brett: certain kinds of nursing or par anu rsin g services. Now they are paid a salary, it is not ve,ry lar ge , but they are paid a salary for going into homes while the mother is in hospi tal, i or example , and looking af ter the children, cooking the meals, and making beds etc., so tllat of course the breadwinner, the father , can continue \lor king . And they also provide the same service for handicapped and aged people, and t hus they help to keep down t he demand for costly geriatric beds .

This is something that I hope to see expand in tlle Province, because we do not have tlle geriatric beds available. And as I said earlier in my notes,many people wish to remain at home if they could and if we coul d extend th is t ype of day care it would be of tremendous service. 5852 ,.. ,.. ,..

April 27, 197fi Tane No. 2lfi0 Nl'l - 1 liP. llRETT: Begir.ning on April 1st. this department '"ill he takin~ over t~e provision of this service ourselves. There is one in ~;t. John's and we are takinr: it over. Un to now '~e have been nurchastnr; the sP.rvice from a nrivate af\encv. The key to the success of this service is in the recruitment and the traininr: of r,ood homemakers. Homemakers 1.rill be recruited as casual e;rmloyees of our department and they will not become permanent civil servants.

Thev >Till ~e hired when and >There thev are neederl and for the oeriod of time their services are required. ·~e have bud?eted $1 ~n,Otl'l for this service this year, and of course the service can be obtained the same as any other service tl-tat we give, bY annlyin1; to the District ~)elfare Office. Hm•ever, as in the case of day care services, homemaker services will he available only to peo:r le in lm.T income brackets.

And 1 repeat ~~hat I said earlier; if someone needs a service and thev can afford to nav for it then that will he exnecterl. \.Je 1dll not he providing this service free to neople who can afford to pay for this. He 1-tave initiated a prop:ramme of recruitment across the Province and we are working out a training nro_gramme with the federal and the provincial :M'annower people. Up to now this type of service has been pretty well restricted to St. John's but with our taking it oYer,you know,it will be extended across the Province. At this time I would like to pay tribute to the ,.rork of the agency here in St.

John's. It was started bv a LIP grant hut then for. the nast t1o10 years it was funded by this department. I am sure that a considerable number of people l•lere greatly hE'lped hv this agency and I have no doubt that some of the homemakers who ~>ere ePlploved with them will wish to continue tl-tis work in the employ of this department. As I indicated, this service will be nhased out and our rlenartment 5853

April 27, 1976 Tape No. 2160 NM- 2 MR. BREIT' will assume responsibility on April let. However, there will be a three month transition period during which the St. John's Homemakers Service will continue to operate. That will be April, May and June, until we take over the 1st. of July. However, there will be no void created as a result of the close down, and probably what is of special important is that the service will be expanded, as I said just now, across the Province. The selection of cases will of course rest with the social workers of the department in the various district offices throughout the Province.

Mr. Chairman, we have made a beginning in day care and homemaker services in this Province. l~e believe that it can be a very valuable social service if used selectively and wisely. We believe that there is a place for the private sector and a place for the public sector in the provision of theee services. Government's role, as I see it, is to set standards and"see that they are enforced and to provide financial assistance for those who are financially unable to purchase the services themselves. Now, Sir, a few words on staff.

Three years ago When the now Minister of Tourism,I believe,was minister of this department we greatly increased the social worker staff, and this is one aspect of the growth of the Civil Service in this Province that has paid great dividends. As a result of additional staff we now have fifty-six social workers who specialize in child care and protection and in working with children in conflict with the law. I suggest, Sir, that the significant decrease in the number of children being placed in foster homes and Juvenile correctional institutions is not a coincidence nor a sign of the times.

I suggeat that it is directly related to tPe emphasis that this government has placed on preventive and supportive social services. During the past three years the number of children in the care of the Director of Child Welfare has declined from 1,759 to 1,311. 5854

AprH 27, 1976 'i'aoe No. 2160 'l" - , '!11· .Jl~n:_:_ The rP.su1t is that there are fewer chi.lclr"n in fo:-ttPr hOI"'"S anc MOre- children livin& with narents. C'lf course, C:i r. in :1ccountin" for the decrease in the number of children comim• into the care of the Oirector of Child 1-ielfare one must acl-n0'~1e<!p.e ti:e l'l'ljor role olav ed hy the ne-w Social Assistan ce 'Prop.ramme. 'lette r sunport levels are no11 available to sinAle oaren ts thus enahlin~ them to keeo their 01rn children.

As stated \le have p.iven every su"Pnort oossible to natural narcnts to loo~ after t heir children . ~fuen thLq fails we believe that responsibilitv shoulrl shift to relatives. To this end,then, W<' have exoanclet! a f\ror,ral!!llle of child welfar~ allowances in lieu of. foster home payments . Tnese allowances enable r elatives to look after their nieces, nenhews, ~ randchildren, etc., without incurrinr. a heavy financial burden . tn this appr oach probablv what is nost important of all is that it preserves family ties ann creates that needed sense of belongi n ~ s o necessarv to 5855

Aoril 27. 1976 Tape No. 2161 ~':.. .!!_R!~_:_ the child's healthy growth and development. At this moment we have 1,543 children receiving child welfare allowances living with relatives. These children are not in the care of the Director of Child Welfare. They are living with relatives and receiving child welfare allowances. NM- 1 Mr. Chairman, I snake earlier about the largg percentage increase in social assistance rates since March 1972 up to the present, and I would like to say now that there was a corresponding increase in child welfare rates in this same period.

The actual percentage increase was - I think it was seventy per cent. During 1975 a milestone was reached in the history of adoptions in this Province. For the first time a waiting list of approved applicants for younger children existed. Ten years ago if you had told me that this would ever happen I would not have believed it. There are now twenty-seven such applications on file with no younger children available. However, there are thirty-four older and/or handicapped children available. It is interesting to note that five vears ago there were 400 children available for adoption in this Province.

Sir, in the field of child care we have a very valuable working relationship tnth Mount Cashel and with the United Church. These two religious bodies provide institutional and p,roup home care for a considerable mDDber of children t-1ho cannot for varied reasons remain in their awn homes. This kind of care is highly specialized for children with special needs. And we have also recently entered into a working relationship with the ~nnonite Central Commit~ee who have opened a group home in St. John's and they are providing care to a limited number of children with special problems.

I might say that this home is working out extremely well. These group homes are not costly to operate,yet they meet the 5856

Anril 27, 197n Tape No. 2161 "-1M- 2 MP .. l\RETT' peculiar n"'eds of the children involved. The 'fennoni tes) who I have just mentioned, have also recruited two highly skilled social workers to work in Northern Labrador ~~th native peorles. One of these is stationed in Nain and I think the other one is in Hopedale. Sir, our department is well organized to deliver social services in this Province. It was only this past year that we were able through a continued nrogramme of in-service training to provide skilled supervision in each of our multi- o ~ I worker offices in the Province.

We have forty-six district offices, and fro~ these offices services are carried to homes in communities thrcughout the Province. In deliverinp; these services the calibre of staff,of course, is very important. Our in-service training programme has enabled us to develop staff of a high calibre and lve have been p;reatly aided in this work by the School of Soaial Work at ~femorial University.

It is interesting to note, Sir, that of all the skilled help re'1uired to administer a pro9;ramme of social services in this Province 1 there has not been a single occasion in the past twenty-years when we have had to go outside our mm orr,anization to recruit a skilled person for an important .1ob. Now I do not know how many members in the Chamber were listening to what I just said. I do not think anybody was: ~1R._R.Q.RE~T~ On both sides to be truthful.

The minister should draw a lesson from that. ~·- !I_~T: But to me it is very significant to think that in twenty years we did not have to go outside of this Province to fill a vacancy in this department. I do not think there are many department that can boast of that. Every single management position - MR. ~O,!l_E~T.s. : It sho~Vs the excellent ministers they have had. MR. ROBERTS' - ·-.....--- There are three of us in the House who will vote for that. MR. ~~ETT: - in the Department of Social Services,and most management 5857

April 27, 1976 Tape No. 2161 NM- 3 MR.~: positions in the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation are filled by graduates of our staff development programme,and more recently a large number of our social worker field staff are graduates of the Social Work Education Programme at Memorial University of Newfoundland. MR. ROBERTS: Let us hear it for the minister who set up that course! All RON. MEMBER: PSW. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. BRETT: I might also mention another interesting fact 1 that nine of the present magistrates in the Province~vere one time welfare officers.

Nine of our magistrates, present magistrates were one time social workers. MR. MURPHY: Good civil servants. MR. BRETT_:_ lve can say I suppose they are products of the department's in-service training programme or have background experience in the department. MR. ROBERTS: A~y clients make it to the magistracy~ MR. BRETT: Former employees are also found in many other provincial, federal and private agencies throughout the Province, MR. ROBERTS: Any maiistrates make it to the client status? MR.

BRETT: And I am very proud of this kind of fore~ight and this kind of planning that has been long evident in social services in this Province. I do not take any credit for this type of thing, I have only been there two or three months, but the ministers who went before me, including the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. MURPHY: The Straits of Belle Isle, St. John's East Extern, St. John's Centre. MR. BRE~ Sir, for a moment I would like to take a welfare at the national level. To•1do so is to acknow:ledge that there are problema in the system.

It would stagger one's imagination when we realize that nearly $12 hdllion are passing through the welfare system in Canada every year, $12 billion. This of course ·sass

April 27, 1971i Tape No. 2161 NN - 4 'IR. llRETT: includes the family allowances, the old age pensions, the unemployment insurance, CPP, our own social assistance and so on and so on. Some of these programmes serve the same target population. Unemployment insurance and social assistance owten overlap,and there is admittedly some abuse of the system. However, attempts are being made at the federal-provincial level to rationali2e the system .

For the past two years my predecessor sitting next to me 1·ere h2s participated in a planning exercise Pith the 'linister of National Health anrl Welfare Ministers across Canada,and I can see emerging from this planning eaercise a more efficient approach to Qanaging social services and,if finances permit,a form of income support and income supplementation that will ensure a basic income for all eanadlans, hopefully with p,reater emphasis being placed on incentives to work,and I can also see a new Social Services Act emerging which will enable the provinces, with financial help from the Government of Canada, to provide more and better preventive,supportive and rehabilitative social services for our people.

On the Newfoundland scene, Mr. Chairman, there remains a great need for an integrated plannin g effort in the fteld of home care and residential care. At the present time there are financial barriers to -prevent people from choosing the kind of institutional care they need. I believe that institutional services should be available in a way that should not influence a person's choice between care at horne and care in institutions,and there should he no incentives or disincentives to one form of care or the other.

I also believe that residential services should be available to any person, subject only of cours~ to professional referral. Rv this I mean admission according to medical or social criteria on the basis of a professional assessment of each apvlicant. 5859

April 27 , 1976 Tape NO. 2161 NM- 5 ~· BRETT: Sir, we have come a long way in providing adequate altemative social S'ervices in the Province. In recent years we have seen a marked increase in the n11111ber of senior citizens homes and there is now a aenior citizens home in practically every

section of the Province. The,re is still a shortage of nursing care beds, but we are ralJidly meeting the need fo;r this kind of service. Our efforts in the months ahead must be towards ensuring that an adequate supply of nursing care beds are available to tho41e who need them,but at the same time we must place greater~;:emphasis than ever on providing adequate home care which is the best alternative to costly institutional services. New, Sir, I must say so~~~ething about overpayments. There are some conflicting 5860

~pril 27, 1<17£. Tnpc 2162 II\- I ''l' 'l"!:TT: tl:oupht~; l'n rhi" . The or-1.ttdsl"'an has nnilecl the r.overnment for hl'int­ too strict. Tl•c '·''''lrC'r f't>'"'r31 has nailed 1•~ fC1 r bejnn roo lax. T thinl· j)rl'hnhl! · .,Y cn1Jeaf'ltC.R ;md tht> ~f!t'lbe r s of the npposlr.1on l"i~ht :~lso fet>~ th:~t ~·c c>re be~.n~ a little bit too strict. So it i~ very conflicting ard one Hon<'ers W'here to r'raw the line . So at: this roint t tdll depa r t hom l'lY lorical sequence of thcns;:ht :tn<' say a Uttle ~"'-nut this partjcular probleo .

By ovcrpa~'l"'entl" I refer to payrrents ~.~ich are TMclc to social assistAnce rc:'ctpients fC'r vhich there 1s no entitle~~~ent. These overpayt'!Cnts occur ~s ~ result of lack of in€o~at1on . In MOSt c~ses recipient~ fall to report ch:mrc>s in f1n:md!ll cfrcunst:mcec; l'r fn t he ~""'~)OS~ t i Nl of the f:-l"'1J y . l'ccnsion:>) ly nverrn)'l"Cnts nrc l':ttts('t! ry n<'nir.ir.tr~tiv!' error on t 1te r:~ rt of' !'!Cnhe-rs e>f tl!e <>taf f nf the t!er:~rment . '"'.~tevcT the c-"ni'"e •hp Fret is th:c-t r'•e redpit'nt 'HIS TCCE'ivc>tl an•i" .. "o'=e to tvhich he e>r she ir- not cn t itl<'r' .

T}-1,- 1;"' " or r!•c 1 .~ r r' Tl'c-u1 r" rh~ t the!'~ ""erpPyr..ents "e rccov~rP.r'. In th ,., tnrticul"r cr~c the re1evnnt lm·s " r e the "oc• ill .~:>!':i1lt:mc-e .'cl llnr' the - in;;nC'i.1.1. \clr .. inistt::otion .•ct . "'1lC "crartl"ePt r ccnvers overpoyrncnts ~t the r:~t e of re~ rcr cent o" tl.e rE>drjents ~nthly Tec-u:!rer.ent . t l"if'lt f'D)' thtt "" have C"-ll" r i~!mtct' o•:er t he vep r s Pit 'l <':! ffercnt rate s C'f rccovC'ry . ~·~'~' tl"ocre :trc some people who snryesr.et' t! :P.t tC'n ;w.r rent Jr. too •, •rr . 's l sa:!c' \ce !.ll vc e~:re .. iTlCntetl ··:lth tliffcrcnt rlltC f' .

I fc1~ y<'nrs .1!'C' t i-c pC'l icv •·•:~..: tn recover overpilyl"ent:=~ nt the r"t<' of ' ') ."'l t'C'l' l'<'r:>On ,,,.,. :"nntl>, and "~' fe>tm<' rl ls re> t-e \'C'ry '::~rc' e>:t l:trr r r .. ..,n~cs . rnr sr.mebC>I'Y v:ltl • ten c!•Ht'rcn nod t1•C' adults it • ·nttJ r' lr• " I " .'l" pt>r ..,nnth . "" " t:iel<' F: r :~ r" to use i isc,.Pt lon i n mor•:frytnr the rnte of recover y . r,r cC>nr~e •·e r."•tncl thPt t h :!s led ro a ]nc~ of ttniforrity .

"E' o·,-ultl fct 11 ""ci.11 •·or\,cr in rnmci ra]1,. tt"l <'e cluct .n ciollr>r per pt' r .-.nn ~rr' I'IN"I'hQc'\· ir !'t . .il'hn 1 S te> r'e<'lll't $5 . (}0 per person , <:o there P<!S nC1 •1njfnTT'~ty at ~l' pnd "'E' 'lllr' to discard that . 5861

April 27, 1976 Tape 2162 IB-2 ~"R. . BRETT : Not surprisingly there are different op:l.nions about our policy of recovering overpaymenta,as I said in the beginning. The clients themselves for the most part find the policy difficult to accept and they are sometimes supported in this attitude by the members of the Fouse who argue that the hardships that result are unfair and unjustifi.ed. As I said, the ombudsman has one feeling and the Auditor General another. No~1 as a matter of principle I believe that overpayments of social assistance should be refunded,as a matter of principle.

I think this principle has its roots in our own value system. If people owe a debt, then they should repay U. I think there is something radically wrong, }lr. Chairman, with a philosophy that advocates something for nothing. I ask the question, what kind of programme would we have if social assistance recipients could incur overpayments with impunity? Indeed, Sir, what kind of society would we have if this kind of permissiveness were expressed in the laws of our land?

I realize, Sir, that it is a hardship on some social assistance families to have to suffer a reduction i.n their allo~'ance '"hile an overpayment is being recovered. But it must be remembered, Mr. Chairman, that for a while previously they were receiving more than they were entitled to. It is ironic of course, Sir, that the members of this House and the media should try to encourage me to modify our policy,while on the other hand our Auditor General scolds me for not being more rigid and more relentless in our recovery policy.

The fact is that some overpayments are inevitable despite all we do to prevent them from occuring. A special problem we have, Yr. Chairman, is with overlapping of social assistance payments with unemployment insurance payments. They are really not overpayments. In a very real sense they are advances on unemployment insurance checks. The recipient agrees to repay by signing a document authorizing the TTIC Commission to refund 5862

April 27, 1976 Tape 2Hi2 m-3 ~·P, BPETT: the amount tn question to the nepartment of Social Services. He are experiencing a lot of trouble in collecting this money. Tie have something Uke 6,000 accounts of this kind on our books. In my view, Sir, the problem is in the system. The system provides for two income support payments from two ~ifferent sources for the same tarRet population. ~'1'. P.OBEl'TS: Hhat are the two? >!T'. BPETT: I do not kno•· Hhat the solution of the problem is. 1'1' .• YUP.PHY: The Fir: and the welfare. Yr.. POBEPTS: Well, the fml':l.ly allo••ance is a support payment in that sense too.

HP.. }'TTPPHY : No,not in the same sense. I'R. BRETT: Hhat we are sayine is t•e are reachinp, the same target here, people >mo are unemployed. Order, ple<~se: I should point out to the han. minister that h:l.s forty-five minutes is almost at an end. }~. BnETT: Do I not have more than forty-five minutes? MR. ROBERTS: That is all,thankfully; YR. BP.ETT: Well,okay, ~·r. rh;drman. Obviously I wi.lJ not get through all of jt. 1 van ted to mention appeals because - it is too bad ahout the hon. T.eaner of the Oppos:l.t:lon. I am sure that he ~oes not h:we to J :l sten.

Probably, ~'r. r:h:drman, if I had gotten up and accuser' somebody of doinp something under the table or cestroy:l.n!! somebc>cly' s character that I would not have been tolcl that I should sit down or that I •·JaS bnrin~t. I am try:l .ng to give some hard, cold facts about my clepartment. If the hon. Leader of the Opposition does not ••ant to lfsten, that is his prerogative. T. !!rn sure that there are other meMbers of the House who do. v.,., YT.TnPHY; YT'. BPP.TT: You can p:et :Into :It later on, I ,,-.anted to mention the appeal 5863

April 27, 1976 Tape 2163 PK - 1 Mr. Brett: system, Sir, and this is a form wliere people who feel they have been unjustly wronged by the department can appeal to a special board that has been set up. It is not made up of government members,and I obviously do not have time to go into it, but it is there and I v7ish people would use it if they feel it is necessary. I did want to mention the size of the case load, Sir.

We know that the humber of cases who have received assistance for reasons related to unemployment can ·and often does vary greatly throughout any given year, and the Leader of the Opposition asked me something on this. I think the reasons for fluctuationare usnally rooted in the general economy, and they are often outside of the control of the department. But I think we demonstrated a concentrated effort that can bring about some changes in this case load. There is an illustration, if I have time, of what has actually happened.

There were 8,930 cases of this type in January,l972, while in February 1 1976, and that is the latest figures available or it was when I made these notes, there were 3,958. And I would like to present the fo~lowing table to further illustrate what has happened during the past fifteen months.

And the size of the case load and in the given number of months there were from 8,000 to 9,000 people, now this is short-tiae assistance, ~•ere on ~•elfare for a period of one month only; 6,000 to 7,000 for three months; 5'~000 to 1 6,000 for thirteen months; 4,000 to ·5,000 for a period of twenty-three months; and 3,000 to 4,000 for a period of ten months including February 1976. Now for the preceeding twelve months, the calendar year 197l,the case load did not get below the 6,000 to •7,000 range, and actually went into ,9,000 to 10,000 range.

This means that in forty-six of the past fifty months the able bodied social assistance case load was lower than during any month in 1971 1 even the Summer months. SOME HON. ME?1BERS : Hear, hear: 5864

April 27, 1976 Tape 2163 PK - 2 ~ IR. BRETT: lim·! much time do I have left, '1r. Chairman, or - - --- i s it r,on c? ~fR • CllA I PJ·fAN : Your time has almost elapsed. HR. BRETT: \,Tell all right. I just - MR. CHAIR'f>IAN: Does the minister have leave? HR. BRETT: - - ---- No,that is all right. I will conclude this paragraph.

I WAnt to pay tribute, before I sit down, to the staff of the department, especi~lly the field staff, I particularly want to do this, and I personally want to do it because I ~las a member of the field staff, and I know how difficult it is to administer the legislation of this department and to carry out the regulations, Ann the achievements that we have made in the past three or four years would not have been possible had it not been for the field staff. An~, of course, I believe I should thank all the other agencies,private, Provincial and Federal who have helped us in our efforts. And most of all, Hr.

Chairman, I want to thank the people that <>"e have served during these past four years because without their co-orerat~.on and desire to improve their lot none of these accomplish- ments would h e1ve been achieved. S()JfE liON. 1"Y.I'"lERS: Hear, h ear! 'fP. CIIAI R~ 'Al' l: The hon. member for Port au Port. HR. J . TT Ol'f\ER : 'lr.. Chairman, I would just like to fjrst make a fe H comrents nn the ll'inister's state!l'ent.

I must point out that the 12 ,onn jobs - or I am sorry, the 1,200 jobs that were created by his department, we must lool' at this in light of the 25,000 who are unemployed at any one time in the Province. And I wonder, and rerhaps '~e could have some statistics on this, hovl many of them I·.' ere short-term jobs j obs that are per h aps on LIP projects or H<:~tcr projects ., <:~s one I h r arC! this morning? I ·.muld like to hear how many j o1Js of work have been created ]; y t!1c Employment Opportunities part of his department.

I ],elieve t luot tl1is is a good clepartr Jent, !Jut I am not convinced that il i s doinr: all th.:-,t it shonld. 5865

April 27, 1976 Tape 2164 IB-1 1-'P.. HODT'ER: Also the minister's figures on how much a person could or did receive in the past,and how good this government has been to the social assistance recipients of the Province since they came into po~~r, and his coJnl11ents on how much the cost of living allo'irances have been increased, I would just l:l.ke to say this, that since 1972 v1e have had an unbelievable rise in the cost of living and the electricity rates, the cost of fuel, the cost of food and clothing have risen to a tremencl.ous extent.

I do not think that bragging about the raises or the government patting itself on the back about raises at this particular time is needed,since I think the governwent would have been a little bit inhuman not to have !~creased payments to soc:'-al ass:'- stance recipients. However I must congratulate the minister on his stand on day care services.

Most of us would agree that the government has no business in providing baby-sitting services to those who are in a high income bracket,and I do agree that the gO\rernment should become involved in helping the underprivileged child and the underprivileged parent and our older citizens. ?<Tow, ~'r. r:hairman, the Department of Social Servtces is one of the most important departments in government and,as the min:lster has said,it is a department that must above all be run fairly as it looks after the sic~, the needy and the underprivileged of the Province.

This department is one that is concerned with the prevention of neglect anc abuse of children in their homes through family counselling. It provides correctional services in rehab:llitating children in their homes and at times it must remove children from their homes to provide substitute care through foster homes. It is concerned with employing recipients of social assistance either through job placement or through retraining. It is now attempting to become involved in day care and homemakers services.

As well it is involved in giving financial assistance to needy individuals and families in economic need so as to provide them with the tyPe of assistance necessary to ensure a certain level 5866

T11pe 2164 Ill-2 ''1", TTOJ)!'IJ:J>: C\F healtl1 r>nc1 c'ec;:ency. 'l'hc cepartment also looks llfter aclopt:l.on , <~nc! !"'U!';t 1 <'"" :>t the ho111e:< anrl determine their suitability to place peorle in tbe,... . ;Jo,..! l"enti.on these function!' of the ~apartment onJ y to point out the ii"J'(>rtant Pn<l ne<:P'!Mtry part the dernrtlrent -,lny:< in th!' !lnc:!al fnbric of t he Province . !kve v~r T fenr t~At in some arens o£ the Province the ln'ld placed l"n the c;odnJ "'"r'-t>r rloe:< not allot,· h:l.!'l to look after his re!'p()n~t ihH1 Ue!l nreouateJy.

I fear that ~·Hh the cutback. in rrc 500 ..,u1·11c serv:mt!" ir: this Province that has been annonncecl , th11 t H the nepa rtrncn t of !'C'C"'.IIl ~erv:l ccs f s cut hack harclsh ip Hill he caused. l( social worke rs a r c not replace d when they le11ve or rctirP 1 t hen th(' function of t re nepa rt!"ent of Soc:lal Servicel' t•ill 'lecnrre ::-eriousJ y :lrpai re<' . I t?ould l iJ.-e to re~mphasis that, thP.t th:lc: ico l'lne t'cpartl"ent th.:tt cannot ~\lffer cuthacks .

"'he sodnl. \IC"rl '<'T :!~ R perspn t~'l<> l"ll~t know l>"ls coll'l'lam:lty, live in his cor-ttn1tv, !·new the peop e t-ho he <'e<'ls t·nth , and ;o!re:uly there :Is ~ preat 'lun•en pl!'cP.<' on !"any of. the soc1nl ••c-rkers Tt la:t!< reP.n I"V tlXf'ericnce thAt "hCOCVCT (IO ngency c1ecic'es to cut b.· cl; , t!•ose in t' · fie 1 r' JITC ~he f lrst t<' ro . ! hope th~>t ~H-., .. rot t'c c-i'sP ~·it'· tl·<s c'CJ'Ilr tl".ent. "crh.::~rs tl:erc .1re arena of t'1e dcpnrt"'C'T't d1ich are not :ts in:portnnt ns othe r arens .

I notice t'•:tt l"'laonin~ :-n<~ rcset~rch h:ts 'lu<'$etec' sore !;11·,0011, ch;ot the r-cner"J ;ltJI!'inist rnt{on cor.ts <>re soi'K! ~300,000 1 5867

April 27, 1976 Tape 2165 PK - 1 Hr . Hodder : and staff development is $62,000. Now I have no criticism of this, except to any that nothing is as important as field services to this department, and that the Department of Social Services should receive less cut-backs than any other department, and if there are cut backs they.;should not be from the people who are in the field. N m~ the Social Services field worker must know the community in which he works. He must not be so burdened down with office work that he cannot visit the community to which he is responsible.

He must know the people who are ripping off the Province, and who are the genuine needy. At present many of our social workers are tied to their offices, seeing people by appointment, sometimes rarely visiting their area of responsibility. And this is happening because there is already at this moment a shortage of field workers.

The minister -announced earlier this year that one of the most important of his programmes is the Development Opportunities programme, and in some case the Employment Opportunities worker has had to work with social assistance recipients because - or social assistance cases outside of his field because of a shortage in field workers. We have many people in this Province who cannot look after themselves, sick, disabled, the unfortunate . He must look after them in such a way as to preserve their dignity.

The field worker and the Department of Social Services spend too much time dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's". We must allow the field workers time to deliver services in a decent manner. It is not sufficient that a staff person must rush a person in and out of his office. And I have know workers who have, and occasions where recipients have had to wait days in order to see a social worker. He must have knowledge of his clients, their backgrounds, and he must visit them and know their circumstances. He must serve them with dignity, and serve them in such a way as to preserve their dignity. 5868

April 27, 1976 Tape 2165 PK - 2 11r. Hodder: ------ /,notller tiling tl1at I do not understand is 1~hy the social ,,rorker \·!ho knm-rs the circunstances of his client Must go,in many cnses,tC1 the regional office to get certain thinr,s approved. For instance, if a s1nBle person is suddenly medically handicapped, all t h e Jocal office can give hiP is $43 a month, Thera request must be made to the regional office for assistance, and it may be three 111ceks or more before this persor. receives assistance.

And then after that , if he is living a loi'g distance away,he r.ust come into the office perh<~ps some two or three times before his request j s npprovC'd a nd very often this is at a cost to himself. I feel that this is a duplication of pffort. This is a decision that slwulrl be mmlc by the field 1 ~ orker ,since the field vmrkcr is tlte person who knows the circui'IStances of the case. And I feel that extra personnel Hould not he sc necessary if we did not have this <l ur>lication of effort. Sorr.ebody in a district office is making the decisions when it should l.Je done in the local office.

I 111ould like to meatier:. a case that happened last ChristMas. A 1·ido1J with n large family in my district had a stove matlE' fr0m 11 steel drum cut in half.

Before Christmas it burned LhroUf~ h ant~ s h e ~tad 110 heat ln her h ome except the elements on her cJcctric strvC'. fl re f] 11<'St HilS t"ad<.> to the rlistrict office for n nc1· stove t1·o •rc;c1::s b efore C:1ristmas,but no uns1~er c<~me back prior tr \ h ri st mas. rn \hristr.,a .c ":vc t:1c main burner Hent in her electric strvc ,[1nc1. ru rhristmas morn.i~;g,which 1vas cole' on the Hest Coast, s he phoned to tell m~ s!tf' tu•s <:old and one of h e r J,Rbies was sick • .. Pt'I:fRTS: ---- --- - Tt 1~a s tHo Hecbl later thRt approvnl 1oas received .1nrl I'. s u1tfi'·Jc stove f o und fnr lter.

This conl d hnve Lee>n done much fnGter if tlte ~ocial uorl:co.r, • .. rho knew her circumstances, could have n ;:HlE' th <' dcd.sio n . f .s n T"li1ttf' r of fact,in this narticul a r case I urr1 crst l'.nrl thc>t tHo of the lncaJ men went to see her, The decision "'~" s obvi o usl y made at the di.:;trict office t.Jhere they did not know ltco r circumstance,. 5869

April 27, 1971> Tape 2165 PK - 3 '1r. F.odcler: An~ther problem that I hav e encountered from the clepartment is the problem of overyayments,which the minister mentioned earli er. Tltis hap!'en~; hecause a person may be r eceivi ng social ass istanc e l·lhile ~IOrki,ng for unemployment insur ance, and some time later t he recipient may rece ive his uneMployment insurance retroactively. No fraud is usually evident in most of those cases.

I understand , and I have seen myself , that it can be as long as two yea rs before the information on the overpayment is r eceived from the liiC offic e and then some time later the person finds out that he has an overpayment. I bad one, no, two cases where the overpayment to IllY knowledr,e - or I IJO\S told by the rec ipient that it was four years ~ld , and that he did not know he bad it. 5870 ,..

'pdl '27, 197(, '~'ape 2Ui6 IB-l This c:mn0t ''e hJ arlee' on the nepartment of Sod.al Serv:i ces, but it is certrdnly " nuisance to the recipient and it causes problems in collection. nut I feel that the departl'lent should take the initiative to iron cut those problems F:ith the l.!nemployment Insurance rolTll"ission. ~low, another proble!T\: Tl1e Department of Social Ass:ist<1nce provi cles l'OUS:i nr, for recipients. They wnl pay only seventy dollars f0r a s:inp:le person living alone in an accmrmoc!ation.

I knm,r of a cvse 11here a uonan and her son ~~ere receivinr; $125 a l!lonth •"nich I ;,eli eve '"~" l'laXil"'um at that t:il'le. The son 1 eft to p:o to university, <tnrl bec;~use she '-'i1S now by herself the rerulations said that sl1e could only f,Pt seventy clollars a month. Rut she must still nm·J pay her rent,and mu"t no~-e takP- it from what she used before to live on. The amount of money I believe that she I·Ja.S gett5ng over and above. the rent ~ras !'a63 a month.

The saT"e th:inr happens when a husband and wife l:ive in rental acco~odations and the husband dies; the wife is then only entitlec t0 seventy dollars. I refer to some of those cases because I believe that they illustrate some of the problems that must be ironed out by the Department of Social Services. Another problem which I am very familar with ~·las one aga:ln conc~rninp; hu:ilrHnr traterials. In Novel'lber of J ast year I was called t 0 a horne hy a local priest ancl. it was a horne which most of us woulr1 not use :ts n storehouse. It. w~. s o•~ned hy a wido"''· It ~ras leak:lnp.. It t·:"" col r1.

Tl1e lnrly to;ls s1 c:l·· ;mel the only heat in the House was a very ST".,ll old-frsld0ned '·!oorl f;tove. T mnclc representation to the nepartment of S0cial ~ervices but it ~·!as tHO months before anything could be done. 1 'C'st of the till'e •ms taken ~va:!tinp. for approval from the clistr:!.ct office, e\'<"11 tl1n11r,h ttm o• the local social workers sa"'' the lady :Jften;an's 11nd "f!reec that this ~·.ras an emerp:ency situat;icm. Now I "'"s in that l1ouse. 1 spent a half hour there. I was cold.

It was, I Hill ar1!'jt,one of the worst exru!lples I have seen :l.n my particular cistrict. llnt I saw true suffering in this particular case. The fact that this long r,rait causec her sufferinp. ann is Rlso a waste of time 5871

April 27, 1976 Tape 2166 IR-2 ''R. HODDEP.: and t1upl:!.cation of serv:f ces to ~rhich I am referring, and this is costing tl1e taxpayer money and the social assistant recipient hardship. Another point I wotlid like to make is that if there are nine people in a family, the husband, ~Tife and seven children, the 11ssistance allmJable I th1nk at the moment - I am not sure if my figures are correct, 1mt I think so - is, the maximum,which is $397 per month.

In my district a family of twelve to fifteen children is not uncommon. /IIlcl a husband and ~rife with, say, fourteen children, that is sixteen altogether in the fal'lily,can only get $197 a month,the same as the husband and 1dfe with seven :In the family. There is no allowance extra for over seven ch:i.l c'lren. Now I see some reasons for that,but I do bel :I eve that there is quite a bit of hardship imposed on large families because there is a cutoff of seven people. I thtnk :It shows some inconsistency in the regulations.

I must also take issue with the department and the government of the fact that the social assistance rates did not go up in January as was promised by the ~epartment of Social Services after the election. Now inflation has hit the low :l.ncome earner and the social assistance recipient the hardest. Those who are on social assistance throur,h no fm!lt of the:l.r o~'!l cannot adequately live in the present climate of hizh prices. In quot:lng the Premier's speech made in Gander in 1974, I think,he sai~ that;~ose people on low fixed incomes today are existing barely. They are n'lt l:l.ving.

That is the society we live in and shotlid he ahle to avoid!' Now those words are still true even after many raises _in rates because of light and heat bills and fooc'f b:flls Hh:f.ch have risen t'!ral'latically this year, especially the light and heat bills. No~r the government h."d promised the social assistance rates Hould go up :In January. In 1974 the Premier said the prograJTIII\e v70Uld encompass the minimum war;e, said that the plan included the provision for future social assistance benefits increased accordinp to the cost of living indexed on an annual basis.

Then last year the former f'inister of Social Services said that payments 5872

i\pr:U 27, 1976 Tape 216 6 IB-3 Vf1U1 d j!O up in J~muary, When did I say that? 1:r. 1onnr.r: You sai<' it on an open ] 1.ne. Rut the r:overnment held off until AprH~causing unto]c' harrlship across the Province. Hen,. I understand that J ast year the rate of 1nfl ati on, I hel.1 .eve,was some~~here over ten per cent, sol"ewhere betPeen ten and eleven per cent. 5873

April 27, 1976 Tape No. 216 7 NM- 1 MR. HODDER: I believe this government cheated somewhat when they waited three months before they put the rate up. And I think the government owes the social assistance recipients of this Province an eXPlanation, also owes them'.a three month back payment. MR.SIMMONS: Hear! Hear! ---- - - MR._l~DDER: _ And we have problems, so we hold of the needy of the Province for three months while we send the Norma and Gladys to Europe 1 and I still wonder how many tourists we will ~et from lortugal and Italy. Now to turn to the Auditor General's Report.

The Auditor C~neral's Report was hard on the Department of Social Services. However, the minister, when I asked him how he would change his accounting procedures, said that there ~~as nothing wrong with them. The Auditor General pointed out that court action is not usually taken against recipients who knowingly make false de~larations when giving information to social workers. When a recipient is found ga!lty of knowingly making a false declaration I believe that the department must be preapred to take court action. I quote from page 78 of the Auditor General's Report.

He says, "My analysis of the accounts receivable also discloses that court action is not usually taken against recipients who knowingly make false declarations when giving information to social workers.

In two cases,where court action was taken and the recipient found guilty and ordered to repay the overpayments, little was done by the department to ensure that the action as specified in the court orders had been complied with, resulting in non-compliance by the recipient and failure to remit all monies due the Province. 11 It is my view, that the department should formulate a collection policy adequate to ensure the follow up and subsequent recovery of all accounts and thereby maximize total colleetions," this is the Auditor General's Report still,"to which the Province is entitled 5874

April 27, 197 6 Tape No. 2167 NM- 2 MR._ If_Q_J?.DY:_R_:_ under the Social Assistance Act and Regulations." MR. MURPHY: Such as what? ~:._ _HO D ~ER : l~en a person knowingly makes false - MR. UURPHY : lfuat formula? v1hat formula does the hon. member suggest to rPclaim it~ MR. ROWE: He is not in goverrnnen t. ~._.!~_Q.DDER: Hell you must be willing to take them to court, if they knowinf!ly - MR ._MURPl!_Y_:_ I am talking about getting it back? lfuat formula is the hon. gentleman suggesting? !!R.!. !i.O~DER: I am not talking about just ordinary overpayments with UIC.

I am talkinp. about when they knowingly - MR. __ -~~...:._ We are talkin g about welfare overpayments. UIC is not into this . at all. We are talking about abuse of government money, welfare overpavrnents. MR. HQPDER...:_ nl~ay. A person makes a false declaration to the Department of Social Services and he owes money,then I think action should be taken against him. Othe~se you areoallowing him to get away with fraud, with a false act. ~- :.... !:!_URPTlY: If he does not make a false state ment. ~ H_O_D_~E:!' If he does not make a false statement?! have something to say about that.

I do not feel the same way about it. l1R._ ~RPHY : I am just wcnder ing • ~ •• ]-i_Q_D.Q.~ As I was saying, I believe that the department must be ready to take to court and collect against recipients who have obtained money because of false pretences, nothing more, because of false pretences . I believe that the system will break down and that the regulations ~~ill be a farce if we do not do that. Now in the case of recipients as the minsiter mentioned a little while ago,and I agree with him, who have overpayments because of UIC back payments, those should not be unduly persecuted .

In most case s the overpayment s ~•ere not received tl1rouf;h fraud and I would sav in the majority of cases the department cannot collect until a person comes back for assistance,and if the department tries to collect 5875

April 27, 1976 Tape No. 2167 NM- 3 ~· HO~D~R: after they will receive very little because if the person is working he is still not receiving a generous wage in most cases and it is unfair to take him to court. Most of the social assistance recipients who are in this particular situation, some of them ma~get a great $60,000 job but most of them go onto labour work and that sort of thing and I do believe that there is a ?roblem and that it is very difficult to collect it but I do not think they should be persecuted.

And I feel that in this particular case the Auditor General may be criticizing the Department unfairly because the department does demand repayment if he comes back or when he receives old age security allowance. Now I would like to quote again from the Auditor General's Report, he says, "My audit of Subdivision 806.10.04, Refunds of social assistance, disclosed that there is no reconciliation of cash receipts credited to social assistance recipients accounts with the receipts which are recorded in the revenue subdivision.

I am. therefore, unable to determine whether only valid and all revenue is correctly credited to the recipients's account." He goes on to say that his audit diclosed, "two cases of receipts which were processed incor~ectly and had not been corrected prior to audit; 5876

April 27, 1976 Tape 2168 lB- 1 MR. HODDER: one receipt which had not been processed to the recipients account and this receipt had been noted for subsequent clearance by aocial services officials; lar~e discrepancies in total rece~pts recorded in the revenue subdivision with those processed for credit to recipient accounts.

The amounts processed to the recipient accounts were materially greater than the revenue actually recorded in the revenue subdivision." He said, "There is no system of review and approvals for the processing of credits to recipients accounts to ensure adequate administrative controls." He said, "Even though our test did not disclose any illishandling of public funds, it appears possible to falsify any action memo ot change order for credit, make errors in completing action memos and have numerous uncleared receipts now credited to the recipient's account." Now, "It is my view," Mr.

Chairman, "that a system of review approvals and reconciliations should be implemented to ensure the proper recording of all social assistance refunds." The present system leaves the worker open to accusations of mishandling of public funds. I say possible accusations. I think that the department bas high caliber personnel, but the regulations leave the door open for the bad apple who can spoil the reputation of the rest. Another point made by the Auditor General is that short term assistance checks are being presigned and blank. I will quote again from the report. He says that, "In this regard

Section 136.6 of the Field Officers Manual of the department states that •Two signatures are required on every check. When necessary one of the signing officers may sign a batch of checks in advance.' When checks are signed in blank, the control feature afforded by the counter­ signing officers' security of the transaction represented by the check is lost and risk of unauthorized use of presigned checks exists. Now, I could make a suggestion. It may not be a good one but I think in cases like this that there should be check printers issued 5877

AprU 27, 1976 Tape 2168 IB-2 ~'!'. HODDER: to all offices with orders to all banks that the check not be cashed unless it is Qone on a ~epartment of Social Services check printer. I do not know if that would work but it might alleviate some of the problem. The Auditor C::enernl also goes on to say - I quote h:!.111 again - "In my view,chP.cks should only be counter:-signing after scrutiny of the transaction by the counte~~signing officer.

Where the scrutiny is not present I feel the check should only be signed by the ~velfare officer completing the transaction, thereby eliminating the illu-sion of a control v:hich does not exist." I feel that the Auditor General is correct there and he is correct expecially in cases where there are one and two man offices. In conclusion - Ylt. ~'T'P.P!lY : I do not like to intrude 'Jim~ but would you mind if I asked one question? Hith regard to the check printer, you feel every office should have a check printer issued by the department do\\'!\ stairs. JTmv would that protect it any more than writing w:!th a pen?

Could he not cheat with the check printer just as well? The guy has his own authority to issue that thing. What is the protection built into that? I would just oke to know, because I was in the department two and a half years nnd it was one of the b:!.g problems that we had. PT'. HODDER: The only thing is that in consultation I feel that , you know, if the check - of course the order would have to go to the bank as well . ~~. }qJ]lPIIY: It would avoid lifting the check, I could see that, raising it from $100 to $200 but otherwise - l-'1'. nonnEr.: Also that that check would not be cashed.

The orders would he given to the bank not to cash any checks from Social Service unless they had the Social Services seal and whatnot on it. I do not know. I give it as a suggestion. It may not be a correct one. But anyhow in conclusion I would like to say that I ean sympathize with the Aud1tor General when he says that he is frustrated ~dth the fact that government departments do not follow his advice 5878

J'pril 27, 1976 Tape 2168 In-3 ~ ~. nonnr.r: :>nd I v.'ilJ he eagerly a"'ajtjnf! the next year's report, the /luc1itor Ceneral 's report referrin? to Sod.al Services in ant1 cipation that l'l:my of those prr>bleMs wtll l,e resolved. Sm'E HON. l'E~<BErs: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member from LaPoile. 5879

April 27, 197ti. Tape 2169 Rl1 - 1 MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, if I may, Sir, I would like to get away from the bookkeeping arguments for a few moments and see if I can just get the discussion back on the level that I think it should be. The minister rather disappointed me, Sir, in his introductory remarks inasmuch as the minister did not make reference to the guaranteed annual income.

The minister, I understand, and his predecessors have on a number of occasions in the last two or three years attended Federal Provincial Welfare Ministers Conferences when I would say that the guaranteed annual income was high on the agenda. ~m. MURPHY: That will be discussed for the next four. ~. NF~Y: Well that may be, Sir. But I personally feel that when I first introduced the idea of the guaranteed annual income at a Federal Provincial Conference everybody, including the Government of Canada, turned thumbs rimm on the idea of the guaranteed annual income.

But now somehow or other I am getting the feeling from the information that is originating in Ottawa that the Government of Canada is now beginning to have second thoughts on the guaranteed annual income. I would say that the guaranteed annual income for Canadians who are forced on government assistance through no fault of their own. the guaranteed annual income is nearer than the hon. minister might think. It has to come, Sir, in my opinion.

The ~inister of Social Services can get up and make his civil service type speech all he likes,and pat himself on the back for all the accomplishments,and try to compare what this administration has done. MR. BRETT: I pat you on the back. MR. NEARY: Yes, and I thank the hon. minister for giving me a little pat on the back. But, Sir, we may as well face the facts in this hon. House, that we have large numbers of people in this Province at this very moment who are destitute, who are down - Mil. MURPHY: No, Sir: MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. Yes, Mr.

Chairman, we have families who are destitute, downtrodden, deprived and we have children who are undernourished in this Province at the present time. 5880

Tape 2JI\O RTl - 2 "!L ~l!ETT: That is not fact . HR . m:AP.Y: TI1at is factual, ~ir, thar is factual . Tf the hon . minis ter •·.,nt::; to folloH Me for a couple of davs I will shew h:lm h0\4 factua] it i!;. m: '!'ltlKPHY: t'e tio not knotf 1o~hat t'lley are doing trith t'lle money . •m . "'F.AnY: Ah ~~ell no1.•, "~r . C:hairman, t'1e hon . minister-Tam talking ahout the system . All ri~ht. _:m. BRF.TT: ''1' .. NEARY: 1 am talkin~<t about the amounts of the a::;sista nce too .

Mr. t::hnirman. in this Prov:fnce today He have c'lildren who are cripoled, who cannot get • a tmeetchair from the ~nvernment, who cannot get a pair of crutches from the ~overnment, from the minister ' s department, while we c:m sail the "'onna and caadys around the world, Nhile we can las'1 out 11undrecls of t housands of clollars unn ecessarilv in consultinp. engineerin~ f<'eS, t·hile tm can see mill ions of clolla r s chiselled out of the Departl'lent nf ~'ishertcs. ~~e have senior citizens in this 'Province who cannot affo r d to buy a set of dentures, as my hon . friend probably knows , because the government does not have a policy of supplying den tur es.

We have peop le half blind who cannot get a pair of eyeglasses . I was hoping that the minister in his few introductory remarks 1<ould tell us how th.e ~overnmen t wns tacklin~ these problems . r.rante d, Sir , the probLems have been there for so~e time . Thev 1ust did not star t today. They were the r e in my time . I ~ad, I thin!' w!len 1 left t~at department , laid a pretty ROO<i foundation, tai<i a orPttv r,nod founrlatinn, Sir, 5881

April 27, 1976 Tape 2170 IB-1 MR. NEARY: for the building up of that department. Up to the time I went into the department - and I am not patting myself on the back - I do not think there had been an original idea in twenty-odd years. I was the one who changed the name of the department. I was the one ~mo introduced the cash system to get rid of the demeaning voucher. I was the one who institute~ the adoption programme,and I could go on and on and on. I was the one who introduced the idea of the guaranteed annual income at these federal-provincial conferences. MR. CROSBIE: no not be so foolish,boy! ~ 'R.

NEARY: "no not be so foolish" - oh, listen to old bully boy over there. ''R. CROSBIE: It is old hat. HR. NEAP.Y: Old hat tr.y eyebal 1! The old hat was the Auditor General's report that the minister ignored and should get the flick out of the cabinet for costing the taxpayers of this Province $4 million or $5 million or $6 million. Yr. Chairman, every minister is responsible for the running of his department. I remember, Sir, ~Jhen the great }'ifflin Enquiry was tabled in this hon.

House, when the ~inister of ~ines and Energy got up and decided to give me a couple of flicks,~ the back of his hand by saying, "Tie should be thrown out of the Rouse." Well.I say that minister should be thrown out of the House. At least the welfare recipients on Bell Island got something in return. "He was the minister:' he said, "And he should be discharged," Well I say that minister should be discharged and suspended from his reponsibilities for ignoring the report of the Auditor General.

No wonder ~ve cannot look after our social assistance recipients the way we should when we see such ineptness and incompetence and negligence on the part of ministers, wasting millions of dollars of the taxpayer's money. That is why we cannot buy the whee lc~airs for the people who are crippled and the eyeglasses for the people who need them and the dentures for the people ~o need them to chew up their food, who are 5882

.Apr:ll 2 7, 1 ')76 ~ape 2170 IB-2 ,1il1b<>tir. ;mrl t·:ho nre sick. That is t·lhy, because the money is squandered and <·•aster' thrClt1fh inco!'1petence and neglect on the part of certain ~i.nisters in tl'e arlministration.

Jf' the hon. 1'rem5er '•liiS <'oing his jor accordi.nr, to cnnstit-ut:icm:1l g:0vermnent and p11rJ :iamentary government, both of r1-Jese l!'iniRters ,.:oulc1 he Ruspen.-l.erl until suer time as that :lnvestiration jp complete. 'lot becnuse they rid anything t·!rong, ~:fr, but bec;mse they FPre :incompetent, inept, ne~ligent :In the:l .r responsi .b:l11.ties. ~ '1' . rT>('~Bif: "r. rh<dnnan, ~·,r.ile I al'l here I ~!ould be very pleasec1 to col'll1'ent on tlds issue on these estj_m.11tes if the Committee f:h;drman ruleR th11t it is in orrler and relevant.

I "il 1 deb.11te the fishedes estitrates or "':lsheries matters or l'IY conduct. If the hon. rhairman finc1s thcf'e retnarks to he relevant nm.r,I '~<'ilJ speak <>.fter the hon. r'entleman and Fe will have a lusty debate. However if the hon. Chairman finds these remarks not to be relevant to th:ls debate,then J td.ll ~b:ic'e bv that ruJing RlRo. But if this :Is relevant then of course I pj1 1 speal< in return. Jffi. CHAil'}'A.l\l : to the suhie~t. I ~muld ask the hon. me!'lber to be more relevant 'l'hank you, ~·r. Chair111an.

Your Fonour, ! aJ11 merely trying to point out to the Co~mittee thnt as J onr rrs l··e continue to "'aste public tn.on:ies :fn this ~1ay 1 then He ·~ill be 1mal' 1 e to provide the programmes that are necessRry to take c;,re of the needs of the "7icm-•s and the crippled and the sick :md the c1epr1ved and the ltne!"p~oyed,'~<·ho are unemployed through no fault of their OT·m.

That is why, Sir, I think that the Government of Canada :f s ~>rorkinf' tm-rards the guaranteed annual income that I am told ts :>oing t0 be phased tn, first of all - the ~'inister of Fj_sheries '~10 sat in the Fouse of t.:oJ111'lons probably hearcl '!r. Lalonde taJk <1hnut the ru.'lr;mteed annual income and tell the House that it is p:oinr to be ph<~.sed in - first of all it will apply to old age pen sinners. Then it <~ill apply to, probahly.,widows and then those 5883

April 27, 1976 Tape 2170 IB-3 Mn_, NEA~Y: liDO are sick, those who cannot work because of illness and so forth, and eventually get down to those ~~o are tmemployed through no fault of their own. It will he phased in, brought in in stages. I l·rould like to hear the minister's views on the guaranteed annual income. I would like for the minister to give the House a progress report on .mat is happening in connection wjth the guaranteed annual income. noes this government support the idea of the guaranteed annual income?

Or a~e they, like in a good many more instances, apathetic, complacent, not interested, just letting the other provinces carry the ball. Because when I was minister of that department I carried the ball on the guaranteed annual income at these federal­ provincial conferences. I tabled in the House, Sir, about two or three l-7eeks before the House rose, before most of the members took off for sunny climates, I tabled in the House a proposal that I had put forward at a federal­ provincial conference in connection with make-work programmes.

The m:l.nister is over there trying to leave us with the impression that his administration :Is the godfather of the make-work projects. Hell, the minister may ha.ve set up a separate branch down in his department to do that. But, Sir, let me remind the m:l.nister that most of the jobs that he referred to in the figures that he threw out to the Committee are jobs that were secured and obta:l.ned through LIP projects sponsored by the Covernment of Canada. · Old-bully boy cannot take it, he is leaving! 5884

,\pril 2 7, 1"71). ''R. ~~EARY: Tape 2171 RH - 1 I was 'lopinP, to get a few more flicks at the hon. minister, Sir. I guess 1 will hRve to wait till he comes back. Rut, ¥r. Chairman, somehow or other there evolved in the last couple of years a policy that in my opinion discriminated against all those people •mo are unemployed. 'I! ow I do not P..now, the minister's department and Manpower so far have Manap;erl to get away ~~it'l it because nobody has ever bothered to test this oolicy.

The oolicy that evolved is this, that somehow or other the minister's department made a deal with Canada Manpower that on all LIP projects preference would be given to people on social assistance, especially those heads of families with the larger families. That is how the "jobs "'ere found, through projects sponsered by the Government of Canada. MR. MURPHY: Anything lvrong with that? HR. NEARY: No, there is nothing wrong with it, Sir, except that it di.scriminates against other people who are unemployed. ~ffi • MTJRPRY : ~'ll.. l>JFARY: These are the chronic unem11loyed here.

These are not the chronic unemployed, Sir. These are not the chronic unemployed. These are men who are unskilled, who are unable to find jol's hecause they have been laid off like the people over on Bell Island who are not chronically unemployed, who were laid off because the mi.ne closed dm.;n. Thev "'ere economically marooned, the same as the people in the woods, lYho worked in the woods, the Joggers and the miners. They are not the chronically unemployed. They are men who were unemployed through no fault of their o~m.

Somehow or other the minister struck up a sweetheart deal, an agreement with Canada Manpower to give preference to people on welfare with Jarge families. h'ell now, Sir, that may sound like a pretty good policy. Rut in actual fact it discriminates against other people who are unemployed. Oh! It does, Sir, it does, Sir. MR. MURPHY: ~ffi. ~EARY: The people - Sir, a man with ten children, a man with a wife and ten children ,.;ill get the preference over a man with a wife and three children. 5885

April 27, 1976. Tape 2171 RH- 2 MR. MURPHY: And they will not receive any other benefits. MR.NEARY: Ah! But they are all receiving welfare. They are all receiving social assistance, MR. MURPHY: But no U.I.C. that they had contributed to - HR. NEARY: Ah! I am not talking about U.I.C. The minister knows what I am talking about. MR., MURPHY: Oh, no! MR. NEARY: The policy is discriminatory, discrimination of the worst sort. I am surprised at the Canada Manpower, although I am all for people getting jobs.

But I am surpri~ed that Canada Manpower woula adopt such a policy where the sin!!;le man, the man with a 1~ife and one child, the man with a wife and a couple of children, a man and wife and three children is discriminated against that he has to sit back because they start and take the large families first. ~m. MURPHY: What order would the han. gentleman take them in? MR •. NEARY: I would take them in first come,first served, MR. MURPHY: Friends come first? MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, I would take them first come,first served. MR.

MURPHY: The welfare boys would be fhe first come,because they would be unemployed longer. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, that is not so. MR , HlJRPFY: Oh, well! 1-ffi.. NEARY: Absolutely not so. If the minister wants to come wtl!h me I ~~ould show him a few examples to open up his eyes for him. MR. MURPHY: That is all right, I would not doubt it. You might show a few. MR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, the make work programme was first introduced in Canada,! believe,by the former Premier of this Province who said that people should work instead of getting welfare.

The hon. the Premier at that time did not mean that people should work for welfare - should work instead of welfare. I followed up his idea. I put a proposal that I tabled in this hon. House a few weeks ago before some of the members took off to get suntanned, 5886

1\nril 27, J!'l7f,. Tape 2171 RH - 3 'f!t . '>~Fl\RY: wherP.bv th~ r.overnment of r.anada would fund via Crown corporations or