Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session V·ERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHElMER Number 11

December 5, 1975. The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 362 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: RH - 1 MR. SPEAKF.R: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. B. PECKFORD: Nr. Speaker, in recent months there has been much public comment concerning the present housing shortage in the St. John's area. As a result of this public concern and also because of recent meetings on the subject held in Ottawa,I instructed officials of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to investigate what exactly was the present apartment vacancy rate in St. John's.

This investigation based on information from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and other checks made by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation indicates a vacancy rate in apartment structures of six units and over to be 3.7 per cent in October as compared with a rate of n.s per cent in April.

Other pertinent facts include that in structure size of six units to nine units the vacancy rate was 10.5 per cent;in apartment structures that had ten to nineteen units, the vacancy rate was 3.6; twenty to twenty-nine, 2.2 per cent; thirty to forty-nine, 6.2 per cent; fifty to ninety-nine, 1.3 per cent which gives you the 3.7 percentage vacancy rate. Djstribution according to areas in new and old construction, old being apartments constructed prior to April, 1974, new constructed during the period April, 1974 to !1arch, 1975 and in St. John's, in the east end of St.

John's, the old apartments, you had a vacancy rate of 4 per cent, and there are very little new apartments down there, so that part of it is blank, giving you a vacancy rate in the east end of St. John's of 4 per cent. In the ~~est end of St. John's, in the old apartment structures the vacancy rate is 3 per cent; new, 4.9 per cent, giving you around 3.2 average percentage. In the metropolitan area, that is the area outside of the city limits of St. John's but still in the overall metropolitan area, in the old

Tar>e 3f>2 Rll-2 apartment str11ctut:es vn11 h;wr " vacancv rnte of 1 . 7 r>CT cent and the new ''. 9 r><'T cent . r.omnnrecl tdth otht>t: mt'tronolttan areas, ''r. ~neaker, 'it can e;1si Jv '"' St'l'n th11t tlte t>n•sent vacancy rate as netermined hv thP Ne,.roundlDnrl and T.aht:adnt: Housinr, r.ot:l'orat:lnr> thnt 1~e 11re ahov,. 1nst .:!l-o11t nnwh et:e e l se which ts contrary renJiv to the nuhJic llttitllrlt' or nnin:lon on the vac;~ncv rate in this c1tv at this r>resent tice. C.a)parv. fnr example, in Anril had a anartmrnt vacancv rate of 2 r>er ce•H , 1t is clnwn to .4 ner cent . HAlifax w;v; 2.1. r>E>r cent in Anr11. Tt is now 1.8 1l<'T cent • • :". 894

December 5, 1Q7S Tape 363 IH-1 ''R. T'F:CKffil'D: St. John, Ne" 'Brunsr.,:tck, 0.4 per cent :Is now 0.6 per cent. That is Apr:ll and October, and so on down. Toronto, 1:1 per cent is now l.R per cent; Vancouver, n.2 per cent and 0.1 per cent and so on so you ret around an averap,e for all the metropolitan areas in Can<tda of around I. .2 per cent vacancy rate in apartments. }~any may question, "r. Speaker, the val:l.dity of these stat:lst:lcs including myself due to various discussions I have had from time to time over the last few weeks with people in the St. John's area.

Consequently, officials of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation are continuing to obtain additional ]nformation to ensure that accurate information on this important topic is available. Although these statistics may not be completely correct or. as precise as we would like them to be, it seems clear nevertheless that an :Improvement in the apartment vacancy rate in the St. John's area has occurred in recent months. I shall continue to pursue this matter and inform this hon. Rouse of any add]tional information vhen :It becomes available. I have a couple of cop:les here, ~·r.

Spe<l.ker, that the page could take for members on the opposite side. ~'r. Speaker, if I can just continue for one second before T sit ilo'm iE T have leave, something that perhaps should be part of this debate is that this morning, and just up until about a half an hour ago :in making a few phone calls and so on, it seems apparent that the vacancy rate is high, to 3.7 per cent, high for the present housing situation we find ourselves in primarily because in ~t.

John's we have zeroed in that there is a fairly high vacancy rate in bachelor apartments and also new apartments that have a fairly h:lgh rent .lue to a vtlole btmch of factors. So this might :lndi cate " higher vacancy rate than really I should reflect in this statement. In other words, families in this city :In my op:ln:lon still fi.nd it very {ljfficult to get good, suitahle apartment acco1"'111od11tion. It is okay for the mtcldle or higher, upper middle classes •:... 895

December 5, 1975 PT'. 1'ErKF0T'T': Tape 363 \71~n h1'1ve the money to pay for the very expensive apilrtments, and n1 so l'hen vou till 1· about a high vacancy rate in the bachelor apartwents. ~o what reflects this high vacancy rate is the vac/l .ncy rate in bachelor apArtments plus a v:.cancy rate in high cost ~partmentR. If yC'u eliminate that fro111 the rate, it ••oulc'l IB-? ,;eem to mE' thl't your vacancy rate would he c!mm fairly substantially from the 3. 7 per cent.

Hut in any case there seems to be at 1ea!"t soT"e i'Tlprovemcnt aJ.thoup.h that is open to question as I in(l:!cateC' in my Rtaternent and we ~·:Ill be trying to monitor the situatjon over the next few months to see if any action neec'ls to be taken on that important :Issue. ~'1L S1-IALLY!00n: Refore the hon. minister s:lts c'IO'>'t\ ,.,ould he tell us Phat he means hy vacancy rate. noes this mean empty apartments? ~m PECKFO!'D: Yes, Mr. Spepker. 1m. <;fF. KE : !lny further st11ternents hy ministers? PJ'ESF. ITWG J>f!'Ol'TS JW STANUHIC A"1D SPECIAL CO~'ITTI\ES: H''. SPEI\KEJ': The ~on.

Minister of Finance . ''J'. nnrmY: )fr. SpeRker, :l.n accordance w:l.th secti.on 2{i of the "ewfounclland Yunicipal Financing rorporation ft.ct, the !"inister of "'in11nce ts reauirei' to t11ble the Auditor Cel'eral's report on the 11ffairs of the corporation not later than fifteen Clays after the cnmmence1'!ent of the session. T have tHo copie,; of that particular stntement to t;~bJe 11t this tiMe, Sir, are there are further copies avaiJahle if hon. rerhers neen them. T am also re']ttired to table at the earliest possible opportunity the report on the }~ewfoundland Liquor Ct'rporation.

The reports themRelves are at the prjnters and will l:>e available for c':!strihution ,.•ithin the next couple of days. Powever, rather than risk the ire of the hon. Hou,;e I at7l now tabl:fng the report as it ~rent to the printers and the More poUshed

article will be available for eli Rtribution shortly.

December 5, 1975 Tape no. 364 Page I - mw NOTICES OF MOTION : MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. MORGAN CMinister of Transportation and Communications): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce the following bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act." (No. 12) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. HON. T. A. HICK19N CMinister of Just i ce): On behalf of the hon, Minister of Industrial Relations and Manpower, who is not in the House today, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the - MR.

ROBERTS: The minister is sitting right there! MR. HICKMAN: I am sorry. Anyway, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, lt bill, "An Act To Amend The Minimum Wage Act," (No. 11) . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. HON. C. BRETT (Minister of Social Services): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Family Allowances." (No. 10) ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS .BEEN GIVEN: ' IR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Question No. 426- Hon. Mr.

Smallwood (Twiliingate): If he can give an estimate, even a "ball-park est:l.mate", of the miles of provincial roads remaining to be paved, and an estimate of the cost of doing so? MR. MORGAN: The answer, Mr. Speaker, is there are 2,700 miles of roads in this Province, exclusive of the tote road across Labrador, left to be paved and a ball-park (tgure of the cost would be $600 million. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Question No. 326- Han. Mr.

Smallwood (Twillingate): Please issue a statement showing for each of the financial years 1965-75 the total catch in Newfoundland of haddock, rose fish, flat fish and cod, separately shown. 897

December 5 , 1975 Tape no . 364 Page 2 HON. W. CARTER 01inister of Fisheries): /lllntXX:K ROSE FISII fUITF'TS/1 £Q£ ( ' 000 lbs . J l%5 r ,JifG 66,752 98 , 546 345 , 20.: 19()6 1,821 76 , 375 113 , 339 344 , 540 1967 1, 563 78,015 128,188 320 , 164 l%8 2,382 76, 44 3 135,95 ,1 ]70 , 91 5 } 96') 11,490 70, 188 171,91/ 4 329 , 746 UJ70 1, 80.1 91 ,716 204 , 739 281 , 441 1971 2 , 954 59,923 190 , 140 25G,715 1972 ! ,506 61,515 177 , 974 213,19 1 1973 1 ,183 110 , 309 201,544 178 , 078 !974 746 54, 570 155 , 127 153 , 036 1975 N.ll. N.A. N.A. N.A. Question No. 327- Hon. Xr .

Smallwood (Twill1ngate): Supply a progress report on the Pacific salmon experiment on the West side of Placentia Bay. MR. W. CARTER: The Pacific salmon experiment was a federal programme for which there are no records in provincial files. Questi on No . 328- Ron. Mr. Smallwood (Twillingate): Supply a table of salt cod fish produced each financial year beginning with 1%5 . MR . W. CARTER: Production of salt codfish, 1965-1975 .

Year 19G'l 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 (estimate) Equi vale nt Light Dry (lbs) . 39,655,100 39,172,800 t\8,399,900 39,693,100 30,497, 000 23,055,300 16 ,281, 800 11 , 304 , 500 9,013,100 10,644,900 15,000,000 898

December 5, 1975 Tape n.o. 364 Page 3 91JESTION J29 J}()NO/IRII/IlA·: HR . SMA/./J>~J()/1 ('fwill ingatc)-To •"'S/; til•• lloll<>IJmbl ... • Hinister o[ l'isl"•rics eo luy IIJX)Il the Table of the llous'' the ro.Jlowint;J inCo.cmation : Supply ol St:ltC'mCilt: of t/1<.• numwrs ,1nrJ value Of t'/n• S<'lll harvest in cac.h of the financial years commencing 196S-(6) . NUMBER ~ $ 1965 79 , 954 903,000 1966 51,515 549 , 000 1967 41 , 887 366 , 000 1968 39 , 749 168,000 .l9fi9 118 , 072 818,000 1970 93 ,286 7GJ,OQO 1971 73,406 598 ,000 1972 41 ,74l 414,000 197 I 44,957 461,000 1974 48,784 685 , 000 1975 N. A.

N,,, , I Refers to landing of seal skins ann volue of same . N.A. Not available at present . Questio n g 330. Honourable Nr . Small wood (Tw;i.llinqate) - to ask t he Honourable Minister o f Fisheries to lay upon the Table of the l!ouse the fol lowin g information: "Supply the f.lq ure s of lobster productio n in each of the financial year s 1970 - 75 broken down i nto volumes and values of live and canned ." l\Nf>NER Lobster Production , 1970 - 75 . 1970 71 72 73 74 ·75 (

l) N./\ . f'rc"<h in Shell Volume 000 lbs . 2,745 2 , 922 2 , 31 4 2 ,7 31 2, 915 I'Ll\ . Value $000 3, 108 3,679 3,314 4 , 500 5,100 N. l\ . Canned Volume 000 lbs . 2 (l) (1) ( 1)

(1) N. l\ . Value $000 --rl (1) (1) (1)

(1) N . l\ . Confidential because less than 3 firms producinq . Not available at this time . 899

December 5 , 1975 Tape no. 364 Page 4 Question D31. llonourublc Mr . Smallwood (Twillingatc) - to as k the Honourable rlinister of Fisheri es to lay upon t he Table of the ltousc the follow ing inforT!lation : "Nhat ~<ras the ocoductio n -financial of crab , canned and frozen , separated , in each of the years 1970 - 75?" ANSNI::R Crub Production 1970 - 75 . 197 0 1971 1972 1973 1974 (lbs. ) Canned (1) (l) (l) 286,524 197, 631 Frozen meat (1) 386,154 285,078 547,513 1,()64, 322 Fresh in shell 18 , 330 72,365 403,800 Frozen in shell 130,235 71,529 147,003 204 ,078 1975 N .J\. N . J\ . N. A. N.A. (

l) Confidential because less than 3 firms producing . N.l\. Not available at this time. QUESTION II 3 32 lfONOUR!o liC..F: MR. SJ.IALUVOOD (Twn1ingacc) -To ask the /lonourable Mini stcr of FishcriC's to lay upon the Table of the House the following information: h'h.ll •~a;o; t/1c ,mnudl production of fresh, frozen, canned and ::.1 II • t/ .:.11tll<m, l>•ok•'ll rlmvn for CiJ<:il o( t/11• finanr:i.ll tJc:,Jrs, I •J'/0-7', , ' "' c·/,,,,;; f'ir:.rl iou . 1972 ('000 lbs . ) Fresh l , 511:" l,2G9 l. ,GOJ 2, 51G 2,067 rrozC'n 824 972 802 1 , 312 1,250 Cannod 44 17 (1) (1} 14 Salt<:d

(1) Conrirl cntial 1>CC.1w;o less than tilrc<! firms producing . N.,1.Not av.1iltAhlc at tllis t.irno. 900 1975 N.ll . N. A. N . A . 1'/.11.

December· 5, 1975 Tape no . 364 Page 5 No. 333 HONOURABLE MR. SMALLWOOD (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable Minister of Fisheries to lay upon the Table of the House the following informa­ tion: What are the total numbers of persons employed annually in all frozen fish planes , together with the total amount of wages paid in each year, in each of the financial years 1970-75? No. 334 HONOURABLE MR.

SMALLWOOD (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable Minister of Fisheries to lay upon the Table of the House the following informa­ tion: \Jbat are the total numbers of persons employed annually in all salt fish plants, together with the total amount of wages paid in each yea r , in each of the financial years 1970-75? Statistics separating frozen fish plant workers and salt fish plant workers not available. Figures for Employment and Wages in the Fish Products Industry.

Reporting Number Salaries and Year Establishments Employees Wages 1970 52 5,458 ~ 18,095 1971 53 5,566 19,721 1972 53 5,227 20,168 1973 53 5,961 28,048 1974 N. A. 5, 521 1 N.A. 1975 N.A. N.A. N.A. Estimate N.A. Not Available at present. 901

December 5, 1975 Tape no . 364 Page 6 No. 335 HONOURABLE HR. SMALLWOOD (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable Hinister of risheries to lay upon the Table of the !louse the following informa­ tion: ANSI.JER What are the numbers of ,,ersons employed on dr:J&~ers and the wages paid to them in the aggregate in each of the financial yea rs 1970-75? No. of Trawler No. of Dragger Aggregate ~ Fishennen Fishermen Wages 1970 1,075 29 N.A. 1971 N.A . N. A. N.A. 1972 1,351 25 N. A. 1973 1,576 30 N. A. 1974 1,138 1 451 N. A. 1975 1,190 1 6ol N.A. Estimated N.A. Not Available 336. HONOURABLE MR.

SMALLWOOD (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable Minister of Fisheries to Lay upon the Table of the House the follo~ling information: Supply a statement showing the total amount of money in loans to fishermen in each of the financial years 1970 - 1975. A'NSHER: ' Fl NAtiCIAL YEAR 1970/71 1971/72 1972/73 1973/74 1974/75 TOTAL AMT. OF MONEY IN LOAHS MADE TO FISHERMEN $ 902 554 , 291 . 1,001,533. 1,659,727. 2,774,121. 3,207,501.

December 5, l975 TApe no. 364 Page 7 No . 339 ANSWER HONOURABLE HR . SMALLI-.'OOD (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable Hinister of Fisheries to lay upon the Table of the House the following information . State the proportion of th~ productive capacity of the aggregate of fr o ~en fish plants act ually used in each of the financial years 1970- 1975. 1970 N.A. 1971 N. A . 1972 N.A. 1973 N.A . 1974 N.A. 1975 N.A. N.A.

Not available. t:,, _J.JO IIIII!PIJ I',\1 1.1 11'.! '1'•11.1-/PCll> ('l 'willi.l1<ji1Lt') -To M i l: Ut•: IIOIIOUT•"Ibh• I•H ni!'<Lcr <'I 1 i:.loo•: 1, : o Loy lliJ<ln Ll tt' 'l'·lh l e ol tho llot oc;,,.

Lim folhl "'~ ng jniornt - f' I...JOH: !i\1(•1 ' '-Y .1 ::1 ,11t•m• n t :h(l\~i n\) 1-1 h<JJ:~ tl<lr :h (·:,,rin· · N••tviu.' !l l:rtitll'1 C ~: lSL : • iII I Itt• ,., c•v i ,,,., . ' ·~ hc·!l •: 11{;1\ o f I ]u•m "'" " '-'I'<' IH"d' lm <.:ol) i L. 1 <..(>S l 0 r t •, ,( h , lin. ·IIU\ 1.11 nhJlPl .t"' lh. ut.~ e Ct.J~~ I .. o f , :,'H'h , the nnniJ('t":l o honl:; .M•I"vi c·,·rl in ··.tt:lt (I( t h C'I11 l ll eac h or Lht• J.jllill"'i.ll Yt:ilt::< J <)70 -7 ~· : llll<.l ir tho: !.ic•\·r: l"nm ·nt. or C.-.rt.ld il <Jilvc <~OY t: in<~ndnl os:,ds t<~n cc in buildi n•J tht• ~:,tid 1. 1 t liOII!: .1 11<1 i( tiO ~lh_,t ·~ tJur rt" I IH.'IIJ.lVI foil i1 1,.], .Ill 1•·•1 ,J:w um:y J.<YIS Sp r.in<J 1'>75 November 1')75 Spriny 197 5 Bpd nq 197r.

Hovcnohrr l ')7!i llOVt.>rulJCr l 'J7:0 s ~~>.:!_l •n:;, ono 1 .u ~.oocl 1 . ~00 ,1}00 l , 035 , 000 J , t7S,ll00 711t),Ol10 flf10,1J('I(1 I, ~O(' , t,lt)Cl j I :? ~; . l)t)() 7•\0 , 0f\0 /\:; nout: ,,r t.l 1< ! :< · . ~..•rvic:r· C •nlrcs hnvo: 1 c·vn i 11 C">\ •t:r.t jon for <l yv.1r wr;o h<1 vc nu rnc:I,Uil t fi•Jur <) !< on Lhc ycill'ly nk,i nl c nnnc.c <:O!'L nor the uutnbc!' o f L-c)o11 :! ],,rt· wi IJ l,• f' al • ·v ic·c tl C o!Ch ycM t:. 1'hc (;<)V!'I llnlt.'lll. t>[ c:.ll\;'\rl l n>vidl.d ' 10" of !.it I. !'<>il l r(ll I l:d\ ftl<' j lJ ty. 903

December 5, 1975 Tape no . 364 Page i No. 341 HONOURABLE MR. SXALLWOOD (T~llingate) - To ask the Honourable ~linister of Fisheri es to l ay upon the Table of the Rouse the follovtng information: ANSWE.R 343. What i.; the oresent status of the Pishemen's Fund. The Fisheries Assistance Fund has been repealed by the Fishe r ies Assista nce Fund (Disposi t ion and Repeal) Act 1966-6 7. HONOURABLE MR.

SNALLWOOO (Twillingate ) -To ask the Honourable Minister of Fisheries to lay upon the Table of the House the following information: What is the number and tonnage of new draggers and new longliners brought into use in each of the f i nancial years 1970 - 1975. ANSI~ER: NEW LONGL I NERS BROUGHT INTO USE Financial Year Number Gross Tonnage 1970/71 14 304 1971/72 45 1243 1972/73 73 1941 1973/74 95 2596 1974/75 32 976 HEW DRAGGERS BROUGHT II ITO USE Financial Yea r Number Gross Tonnage 1970/71 1971/72 292 1972/73 5 3747 1973/74 5 34 51 1974/75 4 2618 90 4

December 5, 1975 Tape no. 36~ Page N\,, 346 HONOURABLE HR . SMALLHOOD (Twillingate)- To ask the Honourable Minister of f'ished.es to lay upon the Table of the House the following infonna­ tlon : \.Jbat are the figures shotnng the production of herring meal and herrin g oil in each of the financial years 1970-75? Herring Meal and Oil Production Year Herring Neal(Tons) Herring Oil (Gals) 1970 28,337 2,506,584 1971 19,955 2,034, 758 1~72 6,983 542 , 523 1973 3,579 547,530 1974 1,332 124 , 836 1975 N.A. N.A. N.A. Not Available 905

December 5, 1975 Tape no. 364 Page 10 rio. 31,7 l!llNOUT!ABI.E filL Sf•ALUVOllll (Twi lJingate) - Tn ask the Honourable moister of Fcsher:ies to Jny upon the Tahle of thco Ilouse the following informa­ tion: .~IJS\v~\{ tnwt were· tlH" fl>•ures showing the production of herrin!; in eac!J ol tlw t inanclal ye;ns 1970-75'! Herrin); Product i un 1970 29,040,000 lbs l'J71 1,8,081, 600 Jbs 1972 42,400,000 lbs 197J 38,426,000 lbs 19 7 i, 39,530,000 lbs l 'J 75 N.A. 906

December 5, 1975 Tape no, 364 Page II rlu.34<J Ilt•IIO!JIU\l\l,T: m:.mll\l,J,WOOD (1'1-d.lling.:ttc) 'l'o ur:l: the, 1Ionourab1c 1·1inislct C1 f Fi !:lWd C:!: l n 1 ilY tljJOn tlH.~ 'l'uLJ.c• of the !lOlli'" the fo11owi llCJ in form­ ntion: No. 350 1\1-J: ~11 . 1 •' 1'il1e1L f'ilYmt:nt·!.; \'.1t·rc made to fislierm\~11 on lost ,u1d <l<lmagt.~d f.i~lting ~rear in c•ac:h of thu fin<.mcial yearr-: 1970-75, aud tiH! sources of suc:h mouey? J <) 'JI•- I 1 Nil 1')71-77. Nil .l ':17"-7J n~.ooo J '173-7il $ 1 , :10J ,()Q(l I 1) 74 - 7'• !)(•, .27<> , 000 19 75 -76 H .

SOO , OOO 'J'he 1-'t"clc!:;JJ Gov0r.nmcnt pi:lrtic:ipated !Jy cor•Lr.ibuU.u~l c•n the di!.iuSLer formulu as fall ov1s: l·.i!: :L $1.00 l.ICL CUtJi til lliJ Nu>;t $2.00 ~0 ';. $2 .00 7!;'1. Over $5 . 00 IJU'L The Federal C.'ovcrnmeu t C'Ontributed on all pro(lrums excr:pt for arpro:<imatel}' $225,000 which vias paid 1001, by the l'rovinc:e for Cjt'ur. lnst. in' l'l<~centia I'·ilY a11d 'l'riuit:y Buy in 1975.

IICJNt'JIJHi\1'·1·1; ~1J;.SJ·11\J..LI'/ClOI> ('l'V.•illitJC)<tlc) - 'l'o u~:k L11c TIOil<ltiTi.li.Jlc f..lini":l.··r ol f"l"llcric•~ to lay UIJOn the 'l'abJc ol: t:hc !1\.lW ca.) the fol l •,.:in'J informa,tion: l•lh;lt pl;tn: : IJ;w" the C:ov"rnmcnt decided to put int.o effect for tile cmla2·gi.n<J and improving of the fish cstabJ.i~;hmcont at Husgruve llilrbuuJ:? 'l'hc Dcuartmc·rd: h;rs iuclmJcd in itt: csU.m<ttcs for 1~7<.> ull item for the C•.lll!' truction of u firc:h huncHing f,1c.i li ty at l1U!'<Jrave llarboUl·. 907

December 5, 1975 Tape no . 364 Page /~ 1~? . ltO~l()lJP.Anl f '1R. <;t·'ALLI-JOnrl (Twillinqatc) - To tlSk the ltonourable Miuistcr· of risht>l"ics to lay upon Lhe Till•lc of the llouse the foii01d11y infonuation : \.!hat arr. the names of the nrinter, the co-;t , Lhe numhcr of copi es pri nt!'d, of the ''llitnclhook fo r Fi sher·nu:n"? NAt-IF nF PRitiTER: Creative Printers 1. Publ icatio ns Ltd., St . John's. COST OF PlJRLTCfiTION: (

a) Cost of Rindcrs (1Q7tl) - Sll ,l OO . OfJ (nicks " c:o. ) (

h) C:ost of Printinq (1975) - $ 9,475 . 00 (Creative Printers) TOTAL COST NIJMJ!flt Of COI'l F.S PR PITEfl: 15 ,non APPROXIMI\TF COST OF FI\C:II flOOK: $1 .17 908 - $20,575 . 00

December 5, 1975 Tape no. 364 Page 13 ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I suspect that there are going to be a number of questions addressed to the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Let me begin by asking first of all whether any directive has been issued by the minister or by any of his officials with his knowledge limiting the overtime which may be incurred hy the snow clearing crews around the Province? Now there will be a number of questions, as I said, Mr.

Speaker, but we probably should do them in supplementary form because I am sure a number of hon. gentlemen wish to get in on it in view of the incredible performance of the highways officials the last twenty-four hours. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. "'linister of Transportation and CoT111!ltlnications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question is no,there was no directive given. The only indication given with regards to restraint on overtime was my original statement made a month ago that there would be restraint with regards to overtime between the hours of 12 o'clock midnight and 5:00 a.m.

And with regard to the operations of the department at this time, we are presently working only on a one shift system. Our two shift system comes into effect the end of this week, in fact, midnight, Sunday, which is December 8. And during the period between now and the two shift system commencement, we will be using overtime as required. _MR.SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I wc•· 1 d like to ask the minister a supplementary question, Sir.

Would the minister indicate to the House if any official in his department or if the minister himself issued a directive that the foremen of the minister's department were not to send out the equipment without instructions from the superintendent, and the superintendent is not always available to give the approval to send the equipment out? 909

Decemher 5, 1975 Tape no: 364 14 ~. SPEAKER: ~. MORGA;'!: The hon . Minister of Transportation and Communications. No, Mr. Speaker, there is no such directive. The operations of the department are divided into four regional areas, with fou r regional offices and each office has a re~ional director and that director is responsible for the overall operations of that certain reg ion . MR. SPEAKE~: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker , whether it is a question or a supplementary, I leave to be guided by Your Honour but it is the same minister and on essentially the same sub ject .

Has any directive been issued by the minister or by any of his officials with his knowledge to the effect that the sand and salt spreading crews are to spread their sand and their salt much less freely and generously this year than they have in the past with the results that the roads, Sir , are but a skim of ice instead of the pavement surfaces being bare for traffic? 9.10

December 5, 1975 Tape 365 PK - 1 ~. _S~E~ The hon. Minister of Highways and Communications. MR. MORGAN: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister undertake to get - I realize he cannot have it now - get to undertake the amount of sand, Sir, spread upon the area served by the Btrch Hills Depot between midnight last night and 9 o'clock this morning and compare it to any given snowstorm last Winter, Sir, he will find that it is about one-tenth as much. ~MORGAN: It is out of order.

He is making a statement. ~._ROBERTS: No, no, I was merely making suggestion. ~. _S~!AKER~ The hon. Member for 'Conception Bay South. SOME RON. ME~tBERS : - -- -- --- Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order! --~ - -- --- Mr. Speaker, would the hon. Minister of Transportation be good enough to tell us if there is a snowstorm tonight would it not be cleared until Sunday night when the two shift system comes into operation? ~·--~ORGAN~ Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman either is deaf or he cannot understand the answer to the earlier question. Come on! ComP on! MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I stated quite emphatically that if the weather conditions dictate we are going to be using overtime - MR. B._OLAN: Like last night? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: - fro ,ow until the time we commence our two shift --------- svstem as required. Hear, hear! Pounding on the desk, Mr. Speaker, will not substitute for effective performance. MR.~EAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Would the minister indicate what steps he has taken to ensure that the Thorburn Road,which is a road that serves a certain 911

necember 5, 1Q75 Tape 365 PK - 2 number of people comin!!; into tmm.will never again if it is within hi~ power not to have anv sand on it as of 9 o'clock in the morning when people come into St. John's when a sleet storm begins at 8 o'clock the night before. ~ _HOE_. _ _1'1EMBE_!:_ Oh, oh! ~\!1:- __ R_O_B_~R!_S_;_ I live on the Thorburn Road, I got a whole series of - MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. MORGAN: -- ------ Mr.

Speaker, in answer to that question I will give mv assurance that after the commencement of the two shift system, when we will have a shift that commences at 12 midnight until 9 A.H, and also a shift that commences at 12 noon until 9 P.M. not only the Thorburn Road but all the major roads in this Province will be adequately serviced in this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS : ---------- Hear, hear! ~._RQB~~S_;_ A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Would the minister undertake to tell us what arrangements he can give us, he can give us his assurance about Sunday night when his fabled two shifts system begins, what happens between now, Sir, and Sunday night? HR. SPEAKER: -- - ~--- Order, please! SOME RON. MEMBERS: . - --- ·-- - ·----- Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: -------- Order, please! I am required to point out that the last question, and indeed some of the questions, and in at least one answer there was more than an element of debate , there was in fact a debate and that is not permitted at this time. That is permitted after we get into Orders of the Day.

The hon. Hemher from LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, a wupplementary question for the minister. 9ould the minister undertake to get the following information for me, if it is possible to get it; the number of complaints that were made this morning to each depot , each region and to the minister's office complaining about slippery roads and hazardous driving conditions? Could the minister undertake to get the number of complaints that were 912

December 5, 1975 Tape 365 PK - 3 made this morning as a result of the government's negligence early this morning? MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order, please! --- --- Oh, oh! MR. WELLS: Information of that sort is not a matter of urgent ----- public importance, Mr. Speaker, I would submit. The fact of whether the roads are sanded or not is of public importance, but the number of complaints which are received at a depot is not a matter that should be brought before this House under that heading. Order, please! I think the point made by the hon.

House Leader is indeed a valid one, and it would be a question more for the Order Paoer than for Oral Questions. The hon. Member for Conception Bay South. ~- - }~NOLAN: A question for the hon. Minister of Transportation, Mr. Speaker. Does he or his department plan any specific changes in their policy this year regarding Topsail Hill in Conception Bay South such as he indicated in a broadcast this morning? MR.. SPEAKER: ------- The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: The policy change, Sir, as I mentioned earlier, Mr.

Sneaker, is with regards to the hours worked by the staff operating the Winter maintenance programme. Last year the shift commenced at 5 A.M. in the morning, this year the shift will commence at 12 midnight. MR. NEARY: ----- Mr. Speaker, what about Commonwealth Avenue in Mount Pearl is the minister going to - MR. MORGAN: --- - - The ~arne thing applies. MR. NEARY: The same thing applies. MR. SPEAKER: ------ The han. Member for !Willingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the hon.

Premier from the Chamber the other day I directed a question to the Leader of the House, and that question directed to him in behalf of the Premier as I said was really meant for the Minister of Mines and Energy. May I now address the question to the minister( Could he give the House a reasonable estimate of how much per kilowatt hour of electricity delivered to Newfoundland, delivered to the Island of Newfoundland from 913

necember 5, 1975 Tape 365 1'1< - 4 !'i~· _s!.3_lluood: the Upper Churchill via an 1ntert1e crannmission line to the lower Church ill and hom ther e to the Southern Shore of labrador across throujt h the tunnel and doun the West Coast of Newfoundland. What would be the cost of the ohysical delivery ~er kilowatt hour on t he b ~sis (

a) of recovering the recoverable amount of power which I think is something between 400,000 and 450,0 00 horseJ)ower and Pach additional horsepower up to say 1 million horsepower. What would be the deliverv CORt,if I have made myself clear? I doubt that the hon. minister can give me that offaaod , and 1f he wishes co t~(e my q ues t i on as noti ce t hat is all right wi th me. But as we are ~oin ~ to be deb atin~t this matter shortly,! assume , it is on the Order PapPr, this i s really essential information • . 'f.R.·_ .S!_F~ER_:_ The hon. Minister for Mines and Energy. 914

December 5, 1Q75. Tape 36fi RH - 1 '1R. J. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, there is no way to answer that question the way it is asked in any f!Vent because whatever the cost will be is going to depend on a large number of factors, the answers to which are unknown at the moment. I do not think I can answer the hon. gentleman's question anyway. All one could gtve is an approximation and it would not be accurate. Eut this matter will he debated. There is a resolution on the Order Paper and we ~Till have to try and give some estimate then.

Rut it cannot he answered as it is asked now and it cannot be answered with any accuracy until the matters as outlined in my statement are clear. Until we have the answers to these other questions we cannot know for sure what the rate will be. Rut I ~•ill try to answer it when I introduce the resolution. NR. SPF.AKF.R: The hon. member for Twillingate. HON. J.R. SMALL~~OD: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. minister for his answer and 1 fully appreciate the difficulty to which he alludes.

But if the total cost of the transmission line, both transmission lines - three - and also the tunnel, if the total cost of that is, say, $ROO million or is $900 million or is $1,000 million or $1,100 million or $1.200 million at these various possible rates and the amount of ~ower is 400,000 - 500,000 - 600,000 - 700,000 - 800,000 - 900.000. nnl million horsepower, then a table would show, would it not, the cost of per kilowatt hour of power delivered on this Island? l'IR • SPEAKER: The hon. minister for Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Nr.

Speaker, I know what the hon. gentleman is driving at and I ~vill try to get something along those lines for him when I introduce the resolution. lt is hard to be precise, but I mean I know what you are driving at. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. member for LaPoile. ~m. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question, Sir, to the Minister of Health. Would the minister tell the House what plans 915

llecember 5, 1975. Tape 366 RH - 2 his p,ovf'rnrnent have made to make it compulsory for rlruggists and pharmacists to keep records of family medication and drugs dispenserl by indivirlual firms i~ order to avoid multiple and duplication of drugs and medications to people who could bring in prescriptions for drugs? NR. SPEAKER: The han. minister of Health. Hrl'l. H. COU.I'JS: I "ill take notice of the question, Mr. Speaker. 'IR. lllEARY: Hr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the minister's answer, :<r. Speaker, and I wish to clehate it at the late show on Thursday afternoon. ''R.

SPF.'\KFR: The han. member for r.onception nay South . ~Til. J . ~ OLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question in two parts, if I may, to the hon. Hinister for Hines and Energy. Item (l): It has been reported thnt the minister was in London, I believe, on matters referring to tlte refinery. !Jne: Is this true? Secondly, is he in a position tn clisclose any information regarding such meetings at this time? ''R. SPEAKER: The han. minister. ~ IP. .

CROSJHF: The anS!~er to the first part of the question is that I was in London, England in connection with the oil refinery and met Pi tl-t the Export Credit Guarantee Department and other parties over there ircluding the principles involved in Provincial Refining Company, T.i.mitc<:i. :. ; r'l respec .t to the second part of the question, I cannot make any statement on that matter nm• at the moment, Hr. Speaker, as these matters arc stil] under discussion and ner,otiation. But as soon as we are ahlc to make a statement we will. NIL SPEAKER: The hon. member for T.aPoile. Mn. NEARY: "'r.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Premier. Hould the hon. the Premier inform the Rouse if he met with the representatives of the St. John's municipal council this morning and if so would the Premier indicate to the Rouse what was discussed at the meeting, if the council requested additional financing for the 1977 Summer Game~ and any other matters that may have been discusser! like the parking garage or any of these matters? ~!R. SPI'AKEP : The hon. the Premier. 9.1.6

~ccmber 5, 1q75 Tnpc 11\7 TR-1 1'1lf.~TE1' ~·oorrs: The answer, l'r. Spe~ker, is yes, n o, no and t'(L 1 ·'~11, "r . ~J'<l'ii!l<er , woul!l the hnn . the Premier inform the l'nuse :1 f the appojntment of !'r . Tom Tlc:>yle as a liaison off l c-rr hetwcen the rovernmPnt nntl the cltv council ~·.l~ ;\ l"lltter thnt ~o.·as niscussetl at this I'IOTninr's l"'.eeting lo::lth the rouncil? P"r.:~llEl' ~·mrp~: ~o . "n.

Nr.Al'Y : l!p)l, ''r . ~peaker, could l: tlirect a question tn the "infsret' of Snc1.<11 ~arvicel'l and Peh11bil:ltatioo 1 I think the minister is respons1 hle fo r recre<lt ion . l·'oulcl the minister tell the Jlouse the solnrv ;~nd c'ut:IPS and the period of the employment or contract ,,·ith "r . To"" noyle io connection w1.th the lQ77 ~tii'I!M' r C'aJl'eR? }'1' • I'I"'Fil' : vr . Spcnl :er, 1 am not responsible for recreation. T un<'er,c;tnn" it col!'ell un<lcr the "1n1.ster withou t l'o rt fo)iC'. • ~"' ~I'N'Y: t'r .

Speaker , I :tsl-'e<' for the minister r esponsible for rccrenti on, :tnd perhaJ'l" the minister co~Jttl - 0t"de r, please ! "P. N!':AI'Y: Poult! t!lc roinist~r responsible for recreat ion provicle the :lnfonnntic>n? .'IN I!Cl~. IJ"'BEI!: "hat is to 1 ose? '!ha t? l'lr~er, pJense ! The l'in:ls tt"\T 1~ithout Portfol1o. Orcle r, please! Or~er, ~lease! the hon . ~entleman cnnnot cleh.1tc !'i t hl'r the answer or lack of ans-.•pr or whatevl!r the l'.lll"e ,..:lr.ht hr. . .., '"' ,.,., ~"" . "" ..... >'T'. Tl' r l1e>n . thP •'te."'hrr for l'Y.p 1 o1 ts . 'II'.AT'Y: f.Pl'I\J(fl': ..

F.A!lV: PEn'ffiPJ'I: NfA'tY: ~T'P.AY.Fl': 'lfi\PY: nn <1 roint C'f nr~er. Yes? !'oint of Ot"cler, l'r. Spe;~ker . Are you cballenginr the Speaker? ~lo, I am not chaJ lenrin!t the Speaker - nr"er, please! - but 1 cl:lrPcte~ a aucstion to the minister and 917

neccmb~r ~. 1975 the Minister savs it Is not his responsi b iJjty, hut the Pre~iet Sll}'S it i!' hi.!= rt'SpOns ihi J1tY. lt-2 t'l' . Sr "Al(P.l' : Jt ls a diff erence of opinion be tween t~·o hoo. pentlemen, if that i n fnct is the case . lt is not a po1n t of orrer, certain y not one within the entire inTi sri ct ion of the rhtd r . t'll . NF~"I'Y: T.nol<, the l'f'inis ter is going to answer the quest:ion, Si r. ~~ . NOLAN: PtJl the rea l minister please stanr up. ~IJL SPEAKER: llr~er, p]l'asP.!

TI1e hon. mel!lher for l'xploits (Mr. ~lulrooney) . ~.,.. t-'TT'Llllll)to.'EY: lfr . ~oeaker, T may neecl your l!uidan ce on this question.

T hcJiev(' 1 t if' tO be ri.rectetl to the "i.n:lster for Mines anti Pne r gy . roultl tht> ''inister of "ines ancl f.nerr,v, in vie• • of the f11ct t\'lat thP. re(' Pnt approv11 1 t<' the 'lewft'lundland T.i rht a no l'n~;oe r bv the l'1•hlic l'tilities l1oan1 "liS 11n incre11se of 26 pPr cP.nt- in that area ­ why l"'J>nv people 1-'it hou t incre11sint their use o f electricity have thr 1r elecrricity stA r e:ncnts <loubl.ed to the tune of 101'1 per c~nt inc ret~sP~? ,.,.. <;l'f"'\l'f" : Tlu.• hon . l'il"ister of "i.ne,; ;mrl l'ner{\)' . C'"ll!'r.IT : •·r. f.pe a ker, I cannot answe-r that <1uestion .

T do not knol-' ... ~ •:It fnct!' H is base <l on. Numbe-r one, l am not rt>sponsi!'tle 'nr the P•th He rt ll i ties C'orllll'i ssi on cioes not rerort to I'!'C, but to rhe " inj«tP. r of J usttcP. ttut apart from tlt.nt, von 1-'l!OI\', you l':C'Ul<' '':we to ""c t h1t nl'rson ' s hj)] " an<' che ck out , you !<no ... , thP eXRCt r:-c~s h"forr vnu <'l'n 1\IIS\"IE'r it .

I cc>uJd not I'I"I'~'P r it d~tht off the <'.uff . nur i r rhr hoo . rPnt.lr.rllm had sol!'ethinr. l"peci fie he wmt erl lnni :C'<l into , •·c re>ulcl ltl' c i t lnoke cl into. ' 'T"' ~PF.I'Kr.r: "11e hon . nel'lher for r:onceptjon f\:1v ~ outh ("r . ~olAn) . " " . ~:nr Rl : "r. f.penker, .n nuPsti.on fnr the "in1ste-r of T'ealth. The I'T'ev:inus ''iniste r of l'r.11lth 'in tl•i s l'nuse i n!licatec 1 !lm~c time ~>r.o, ''r. f.pe aker - ,,. . Sl'F.i\IT" : f') rrer, plento e ~ T \•OuJd ask t hP hnn. ren tleman to he - 1\!'l !'llN. :~'nr.r : 1\e h ri e f • 919

• J l'ece!'lbP.r 5, 1 <>75 T2.pe %7 _t~. Sl'T:i\n~r: llrlet, «itl1ont pre:1mhle hut tn r,rt iml'lec1iateJv into the nnestinn, /lr ri"'e" c-rrt11in infnrmaUon •·ssenti11l fnr tl1e unc'erstandinr: of the question is nhvimm]y necess11.ry, hut T. Honld suggest that prohabJy th11.t k:inc1 of preafT1ble, at least in "'Y opinion, may not he leading up to the :!_nfnTl'lation 'Jhich in fact was necessary. The hon. me1'1ber for roncept :1 on !111y South (Hr. No] an) • IB-3 VR. NOLAN: Thank you, "r. Spe11.ker.

A question for the ''inister of 1TeaJ th, ancl that i.s rerarrling the intention of the 1!0Vernmen t e"rl ier to purchase all drugs for the Province as inc1icated by the "i.nister of Health 11.t one time. Hhat if any progress has been made on this? Is it still in fact the intention of the minister to ]ook into this, to purchase 11.l J drur,-s 11.nd make them available to the citi?:ens? Fhere c1oes it st:1nd at this moment, Sir? _'.'1'. SPT:N\l'R: The hon. !'inister of He11lth. }."'. 11. roLLINS: l'r. Speaker, I will take notice of the quest:! on 11.nc1 get an ans,·ler for the hon. member. MT'.

SPF.i\KF.l': The hon. memht>r for l'.xp] oits (!'r. ''u] rooney). t'l>. ~'l'LPOONEY: }:r . Speaker, a question to the ''in:fster of Justice . rnulc1 the l'inister of Justice have an investip;ation carried out :Into the recent increases of 100 per cent in the electricity statements over ~ perlnc' of nne month hy the central Newfoundland Light and l'oHer rnrnp11.nv?

HJ'. llTGlO'AN: ''r. ;,peaker, obvious] y the hon. pentleman noes not nnrlerst11.ncl the func-tinns of the Roarc1 of r.omm:lss:foners of Public l'tiJities. 1'he 1'·om:-t1 of rnmmissioners of Puhltc Ftilit:les,which is '" totaJJy inrlepenc1ent, ouasi-judid.lll bor1y before whom the r,overnment, if :It ~''"nts tn protest anc1 has on occasion appearer't to protest an npp}jcatinn bv a utility company fnr a rate increase,whn must aJsn appear~ Se.ction Rl of the PuhUc T'tilities 1\c-.t provicles very c]early th11.t upnn the complaint of any mtmicip11l:lty or any five persons that :my r-'lte 1nc-re<Jse nr c-h11.rp,e of a utility is nnreason11.hle or t.m.iust the hoar<' shnl1 nake ;m enquiry and hold a l1earinr. ~o that if the hon. 919

n~cember 5, 1"75 Tape 367 IB--4 rl'ntleman has fh•e con s tituents or one municipal:!.ty who feels that ln thnt instnnce certain residents have heen overchar r,er then I ,,_•nu]d stronr:lv urge ~im to communicate to them the ]_,.,,, ancl Rupgest tl1a t they ~ral<e the necessary representation and complaint wi. th the Rnard of r<'l'TMissjoners nf Public Fti.lities whose ofHce c<ln he founcl jn Prince PhiU.p Place, F.J:fz:1hE'th .~venue, St. John's. 920

Tape No, 368 Nt' - 1 "Tl ST'F.AKF.P: Thc> hon, rnPmher for Hindsor-Buch;ms . .':_"'_......B:.."!!'!EI.:._ T di rec:terl tH I' f]UE'Stion previously to the Premier In thP :>hsL,nc:e of the ~'inister of ~·inPs and F.nergv and I ~10uld no~ like to direct the f]uestion to the UfnistPr. ~r.

"fnfster, vou •~ere 'lUOted i.n thf' local media as stating thnt !luchans can last, thP mininr opr>ration in !luchans can last until lq85, Tt was indicated that mini.nr: thP present reserves, the reservE's that are now heinp, minf'd, plus other orP bodies around Buchans, and if we continue that tvpe of mfnin~. the nining will last until l'l85. Was the minister mi !H]Uoted anrl f f not •~ould hP please indicate the source of his infnrmatlon? ~·r. SPEIIKf'T>: The hon. l'in ister of Hines and F.ner,zy. ._1'f'!. CROSB TR: •·r.

SpPab•r, T wns asked a Cluestion about Hhat is the rroiected life of the Buc:hnns Mines bv the member for LaPoile. T got a typed replv to ft frorn the officials of mv d~partment and T read th.1t. T unrlP.r!'t;mcl !'hlCP there has been some confusion because it was nppnrPntlv misquoted. The repl.v, as I remember it was that there are sufficient reserves proven, vou knm,•, in the Jluchans mine for it to continue to 1979. ThP.re is a possfhili.tv th"t it may be able to continue up to 1985, if other possihilitlf's turn out to he achi.eved or to be - 'H' ~'l'RT'HY: Be~omP available. ·~.

GROSB IE: - possib.l e, l'ec:ome nvailnble. So there iR only assure rPserv<'s thPT<' until l'l7'l, but there are othP.r possihiliti<'s that :If th<'y <Jork out mi r.ht hrin?. the 1i fe to 1985. But there :1 s certainly no assurance of th,t. ~10!·' the exact wording of that repl.v, 1 think I tabled it he>re. T clo not knmv whnt happened to it since. noes that clarify the point? The hon. member for l.aPoile. 'lr. Speaker, 1 \~ould like to put a ouestion, Sir, to the "i.nil"ter of Health, Hill the minister tell the House if there is any particular 921

December 5, 1975 Tape No. 368 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: reason that Newfoundland is not participating in the funding of a new dental school in Halifax~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. }IR. R. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, with regard to t he proposed new School of Dentistry in Dalhousie, in Nova Scotia, there was a proposal submitted to the government some time ago and the implications of that proposal meant that on a per capita shared basis the cost to the Province would be very nearly $3 million, to be exact I think it was around S2.8 million, and to use the hon. member's term which he used yesterday, that is a lot of francs. About two weeks ago I had a meeting with Dr.

Stewart,who is the Vice-President of the Health Science at Dalhousie,and we discussed various ways in which Newfoundland might contribute other than by the capital grant method and Dr. Stewart is to let us have a proposal, a new proposal through the Minister of Health i n Nova Scotia and incidentally I have not received that proposal as yet. MR. SMALLWOOD: }lr. Speaker, has the minister given any active consideration to the idea that the Medic:al College might institute ,a dentistry

section or a department here at Memorial and if so has the minister got any estimate of what it would cost to do so1 And thirdly, is the need for dentists in the Province best met by what method, from a financial point of view. MR. SPf.AKF.R: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: '·'r . Speaker, we are always giving consideration to that sort of proposir i on but as I indicated earlier at our meeting with Dr. Stewart a coup 1 (!. of weeks ago, many aspects were considered and a lot of our options naturally we had to leave open.

But we are trying to reach an agreement by other means with Dalhousie at the present time. What the economics of it are I really cannot answer that question but I am sure that once we receive the proposal from the Health Minister in Nova Scotia, after he receives it from Dr. Stewart, then I might be in a position to give further information to the House. ~. SPEAKF.R: The hon. member for Twillingate has a supplementary, I beHeve, 922

December 5, 1975. Tape 369 RH- 1 ~!R • SMALUIOOD : The minister,you know, with the best of desire haR not quitr answerer!. If it would cost n)-,out $3 millions to go in 1•ith the Dalhousie nental School, what would it cost to have this done by Memorial? If it could be done for $1.5 million or $1 million a year or something of that nature, is there active consideration of that rather than buildin~ up, helping to build up Dalhousie? '{R. SPFAKEF: The hon. minister. I'R. COLLINS: That is a figure which I cannot give, Mr.

Speaker, what the cost might he to provide the training services which otherwise might he supplied by Dalhousie. I can certainly look into that matter. ~1 R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for r:onception Bay South. 'fR. NOLAN: Nr. Speaker, a question to the Hinister of Justice. r.ould the minister who is responsible I understand for the Public Utilities Commission please tell us if it is their intention in the future to have Newfoundland Hydro appear before the Public Utilities Commission, nr should I refer the question to the Public Utilities Commissinn? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. HON.T.A.

HICKHAN: t1r. Speaker, it is not the intention of government at this time to have !<ewfoundland Hydro appear before the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities. My recollection is that the Newfound­ land Hydro Act removes it from the jurisdiction and authority of the Board anc1 consecprently even if we wanted to unrler existinp, legislation they could not grr that hefnre the Board. 'IR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. '·IR. NOLAN: A suppJ el'lentary question: Th.e legislation cou] d he changed if the minister and the House so desire. !'IR.

SPVAKFR: Order, please~ f\rder, please~ It :ts not a question but a statement and I cli.d not recognize the han. gentleman to make a 923

December 5, 1975. Tape 369 RH - 2 statement but to ~sk a question. The hon. memher for LaPoile. ~~R. NEARY: 'lr. ~peaker, I woyld like to put a question to the Minister of Health, Sir. Hould the minister inform the House if the government have taken any action in connection with bringing in legislation into this House to forbid people to smoke in public buildings and government institutions? !!R. H. COLLINS: :'Jo. HR. Sl'F.AKF.R: The hon. member. MR. NF.ARY: Hr.

Speaker, would the Minister of Health then tell the House, Sir, if his government have any plans to provide free druf(S for senior citizens in this Province? Do not sit there - HR. COLLINS: I will take it as notice, Hr. Speaker. MR . SPE.IIKfR: The hon. memJ,er for Fogo. Ci\l'T. F. . \HNSOR: Hr. Speaker, a question for the hon. }1inister for Transportation and Communications. Can the minister tell us what if any arrangements he has made to sand or salt the road on fogo Island this T . .Jinter? MR. SPFAKER: The hon. minister. liON. J. ~ OPJ>A'I: l'fr.

Speaker, in ans~1er to that question I Hould sincerely hope. that the hon. p;entleman would visit his district over the 1-1eel-:encl - ''TC. SPf N(fR: 'I'R. SPF.AKf.R: Order, nlease! Order, please! and persuade - Order, ple•ase! Order, please! As it is obligatory to correct hon. memhers when they are asking questions Hhen they include dehate, there is a similar obl:i .gation with reference to bon. members ans~1ering CJUestiom; and I restate that it is an opportunity to ask for information and to give information. There is ample opportunity for debate but this is not it. The hon. minister. ~. HOTIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the situation on Fogo Island is that there is only one co~unity where sand is available for the maintenance operations of my department and that is in the community of Tilting. 924

_, Tape 31i9 RH - 3 And unfortunately, the people of Tiltinp; r1o not agree for us to use the sands in that community. So I sincerely hope that tdth the co-operation of the hon. Rentleman we can arrange with the oeople of Tilting to obtain sand from that community. CAT'T. 1./INSO:r: A supplementary, ,r-!r. Speaker. Has the minister's department endeavoured to find any other source of sand because I feel there is other sources of sand there. ~fR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. ~rn.. HORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, my engineering staff and officials have searched, combed the island of Fogo and unfortunately cannot find any sand to use on the roads on the Fogo Island. But there is sand, suitable sand available in Tilting. But to date we have been unable to ma~P any kind of arrangement with the residents of Tiltin~ to obtain the sand from that community for that purpose. l!R. SPFAKF.R: The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. HR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, while the adrenalin is still in the blood of the hon. minister,tmuld the Minister of Transportation and Communications indicate 'his department's policy with respect to overtime in view of the imp]~mentation of the two shift system? Tn other words, if I can rep~ rase it, ?1r. Speaker, if it is necessitated~ will overtime be use~ as well as the two shift system when we have sever storm conditions throughout the Province during the winter? 925

December 5, 1975 Tape 370 PK - 1 MR •• _S.E_~ The hon. Miniflter of Transportation and Communications. ~. _MORGAN: Of course, Mr. Speaker, overtime will be used as required as earlier stated. MR. ROWE: Thank you. MR._SPEAKER: The Hon. Member from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, another question for the Minister of Health. Would the minister care to tell the House, Sir, what action the government has taken on the Goose Bay Hospital problems, if any? MR. __ S!E~ The hon. Minister of Health. Mr.

Speaker, I can tell the hon. member, I think this is what he is leading up to, that I have arranged a meeting next week in company with the hon. member, with the hospital authorities and the Health Council in Goose Bay-Happy Valley. MR._NEARY: Here in St. John's or Happy Valley? MR._CQLLINS: No , the meeting is in Goose Bay. ~--N~Y: In Goose Bay. ~._S!EAKER: The hon. Member from LaPoile, and this will be the last question and the last answer. MR. NEARY: ---·--- Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a ouestinn to the ~linister of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

Would the minister tell the Ho~se if he has received a request from the office workers at Bowaters for a conciliation officer? And if there is any change in the strike in the pulp and paper industry throughout the Province, And what the minister is doing to kelp in these strikes? MR._~P!AKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. E. MAYNARD: With relation to the question regarding the office workers, no, Mr. Speaker, I have not received a request for conciliation services. In relation to the general strike situation in the pulp and paper industry in the Province,there has been no change.

We have offered ~~hat ever conciliation services that we can provide, and we will continue to offer them. I have a feeling however that the unions will not really want to negotiate any further until the Eastern Canadian situation is settled, since it is all controlled by the one union with the exception of the one mill in New Brunswick, 926

·' December 5, 1975 Tape 370 PK - 2 all of Eastern Canada including Ontario is on strike at this time. ~~NEARY: Is that the K.C. Irving mill? MR. HAYNARD: Yes, that is back at work. 000 ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Lewisporte. MR.__!_:_ 1'-'HITE: Mt:. Speaker, under Provision of Standing Order 23 I ask leave to adjourn the House to debate a matter of definite puhlic importance, namely; the failure of the Minister of Transportation and Communications to take those ~teps which reason and prudence dictate should have been taken to ensure that his officials - Order! MR.

IVHITE: - were ready to provide the people of Newfoundland and Labrador with adequate snow clearing and ice control operations on the highways. ~!R. NF.ARY: Hear, hear! - ··---- SOME HON. MEMBERS : Resign, resign! -~ ---- MR. SPEAKER: Before ruling on it, I would draw to the attention of the House that the hon. gentleman, although not required to by our Standing Orders, but did in fact give me prior notice some time earlier today, I say while this is not required it certainly is of assistance if one receives notice at least ten or fifteen minutes ahead of time, as I pointed out, and I thank him for it.

I repeat, it is not required. It has given me the opportunity to give it the serious consideration it deserves.

I have to point out that among the factors to he taken into consideration are not only the urgency of the matter hut the urr,ency of debate, and in considering the urgency of debate and I quote verbatim from a decision in the House of Commons March 11, 1970, "The probability of the matter being hrought before the House. ~Tithin a reasonable length of time by other means." And obviously here for my guidance I have nothing more than the Order Paper l,•hich indicates an Address in Reply, still uncalled, a Rudget Debate, still in progress, and certainly these would indicate that there is the reasonable expectation of other opportunities. 927

Oecenher 5, 1975 Tape 370 PI< - 3 ~._SJ!eaker: J 1~ ould point out, too, in addi tion to that tha t it would appear to me t,at t he matter refer r ed to by the hon. me.mber is in the nature of an alle ged gri evance , in the nature of an alleged grievance with respect to action or inaction on behalf of a oerson , and in a decision of June 2, 1969 there is nuite specif i c reference there, and I quote, "The provisions of the S tandin~t Order are not intended to provide additional opportunit ies for the purpose of discussing grievanc es. " So I realize the importance of t he ~eneral subje ct matter.

Again, I thank the han. ~entleman fo r having hrought it to my attention, but 1 do not think, havinp, considered those matters, that I can rule it in order. ORDERS OF THE DAY ~!otion 1. 928

December 5, 1975 Tape No. 371 NM- 1 On motion of the Ron, Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act To Adopt A 1-fineral Emblem For The Province," (No. 2) read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Ron.

Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Entered Into Between The Government, Wabanex Energy Corporation Limited And Power Corporation Of Canada Limited With Respect To The Conduct Of A Survey Into The Feasibility Of Using The Disused Iron Ore Mines At Bell Island For Hydrocarbon Storage And, If Feasible, To Lease Land And Pertinents Therefor, and To Make Statutory Provisions Respecting Matters Connected Therewith," (No. 5) read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Ron.

Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Restructuring Of The Anglican Diocese Of Newfoundland," (No. 8) read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Ron. Hinister of Justice, "An Act Further To Amend The

Summary Jurisdiction Act," (No, 9) read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Ron. Minister of Municipal Affairs And Housing, "An Act To Empower The St. John's Mtmicipal Council To Raise A Loan For t'l'unicipal Purposes By The Issue Of Bonds," (No.6), read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion that the House resolve itsP]f into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

Resolution: That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend the Retail ~~les Tax Act, 1972, the Act no. 56 of 1972. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: ~r. Chairman, the resolution before Committee is the resolution dealing with the increase in the sales tax on certain items of consumption in the Province. The resolution deals with the increase of the retail sales tax from the eight per cent, as now charg_ed, to the ten per cent which is proposed and recommended to this Committee and to the House in the Fall Budget of 1975. 929

n~cember 5, 1975 Tape No . 371 NM- 2 As the Committee is aware, Sir, the exemptions on this ten per cent are quite explicitly laid out, both in regulation and through the media. The 930

~ecember 5, 1q75 MR. DOODY: Tape 372 IB-1 government has !'lade it nuH.e clear that it is the intent:lnn to raise tl1e tax in nrc'E>r ro r.et the revenue necess:~ry to c:arry on the nec.ess;\rv ~ffairs of the Province, to carry on the standards of service of the Province,whj)e ~t the s~e time l:lrnjtinp, the difficulties on the ordinary working person of the Province. As the tax no"' st~>.nc's, Sir, rhe essenti~l :Items of Jivinp. insofar as possible ~re exempt from the reta:ll sales true.

J spe;\k of heating suppJies,and that is with the excP.pt:lon of electric heat •·•hich we will adc;lress rmrse]ves to at a later r;\te. FueJ oiJ, stove oiJ, coal anc' this sort of thing is now exempt frorr tax. AJJ fooc' items are now exempt fr.om tax and the clothing items, Sir, •dth some minor e.xceptions which are not of a necessity area, are P.lso exempt from tax. Mr. Chairman, tile object of the resolution is to amencl the Retail Sales Ta:r Act o~ 1972 a] ong the lines ••h:l ch I have just sugpesterl. It is certainly not a measure that government :is happy about introducing.

It is a measure that government f.ee] s is absolutely necessary to introduce. The financi~l position of the Province has cH ctateil the fact that :1 t has to be done. 1;rhat ,.,e have endeavoured to ro"Jancl I think have clone, S:l.r, :Is to impose the necessary tax to hr:lnp. in at least part of the rE-venue necessary to carry the business of the Province and do it in the TJay that :Is least onerous and in the Je11!'t <1i fficuJ t. ~my on the fixed i.ncome people, on the low income people, on the people w:lth the ]o•,•er incomes and on the rn:lddle income people.

So, Your llonour, I cn!rll'lend this resolution to the J-louse and I a,;l< that :it h<' cnns:!c'lerec'l and passec. MR. SU"MONS: Yr. rhairman, I would just like to say a fe-v.• worc1s on the resolution :In connection with the announced increase in retail sales tax. 1'r. rhairman, I -v.•ill he voting against this resoJution. ~r. rhairman, :It should come as no surprise at all to the minister. It :Is consistent, very consistent with our position that we w:!ll not be a party to "~at is going on here.

This is no way to heJp the orc1inary Newfoundlander to cope with inflation, to lessen his burden insofar as the cost of liv:lnR is concerned, no way, Mr. C'hairman. The minister makes wuch in his public statements here in 931

~er.~wher 5, 1~75 ,., SD-?'ON~: :rr.-2 the Tlou:<:e Mc1 O\Jt:<:·Jt!e nhout how easy they i1ave mAcle i t for the 11verar.e persCin . •rr . "ha:lrl".an, ~>•e all kno'·' that the ~taoJe reason for this ''uti get. its ~·hoJ e :lll'pnrt and ~ip.n:l. f.icance hits to nl' vith 1tn atte11'pt to haH the 'Provinc e nut hecause of the mes!' th11t this aclministrntion has p;ot the rrov:lnce into. Pith that :In m:incl, "r.

C'hllinnan, :my nppn r ent rCion:les, any items identified by the minister as sweeteners and plums, should hi:' tal<E'n as e:<Actly that, as an effn r t by thE' l'linist er to c'etract ;nmy frotl' the real issue in the hud~et .

The bu<lp.et has heen b rou r~ht 1-nn•ar<l , we ArP to l <l, hecnuse thf' Y,ClVP.rnl'lent needs 11clcl1tiona J money. ~n if ve find n number l'f instances in the bt•clr,et where the l'li.n:lster proposes to &fl!'nd ac'c':!t1.onal money, then the only re"'s on th11t can he there ? t all is because he is attempting to offset the uproar tht~ t hP co u1 (! othenof !'e expe ct frort a 2 per cent :I ncrea se i.n tl'e sales tax. vr . f"hairm<~n, unfortunntely for people ~;ho will ~·ind up o~yinr. this tPX they ~o not h<~ ve the t1~ or perhaps the ~ispos\tion in so~e rPspect:<: to ~n nlv ze the real implications of this 2 pe r cent. 932

December 5, 1975. Tape 373 RH - 1 MR. SIMMONS: - - ----- Unfortunately for them this bill will be through the House before the real import, the real impact will come home to them because they are being sweet talked by the minister on TV and radio and here, sweet talked into thinking or at least this is his attempt, sweet-talked into thinking that somehow it is not going to hurt them. Well, Mr. Chairman, it is going to hurt them to the tune of $7 million this year, $7 million. I intend to vote for it, Mr.

Speaker, and I believe my colleagues in the official Opposition will be doing likewise, voting against the resolution to increase, MR. DOODY: You say you are going to vote for it? HR. SH1MONS: - voting for, Mr. Speaker- Ah!

The minister hears rather selectively! - voting for the people of Newfoundland, voting against the resolution, voting against socking 1t to the people of Newfoundland one more time with another two percenta~e points on the retail sales tax, voting against becoming the Province in Canada with the highest retail sales tax, voting against becoming one of the only - one of the few Provinces in Canada in this year, in this tax year to increase taxes at a time when most other Provinces are either standing pat on the matter or else reducing taxes, at a time when other Provinces and other ministers of Finance are taki.ng overt steps to help the average person, the low income earner, the middle income earner, helping these people to cope with the cost of l:!.v:!.ng, to help them :!.n their almost losing battle against inflation. ~r.

Speaker, if it were not such a serious matter I would think it some kind of joke, some kind of sick joke. The minister trys to perpetrate on us with his resolution to increase taxes at this particular time. It is not, Mr. Chairman, a very appropriate way to help the low and middle income earners. It is not at all a very appropriate way for the government to address itself to the problem at hand. liTe do not intend, Mr. Chairman, either in this act here today, 933

Decemher 5, 1Q7S. Tal'e 373 1U1 - 2 HR. SH'MONS: in this resolution or else~rhere in this session to become j)arty with th~ v,overmr.ent to this maddeninp;, irrational situation in which they find themselves, Sir, <Jith their own - leading with their nose or whatever, or perhaps, ~lr.. Chairman, leading very deliberately with some other motives in. mind but that is a subject we ought not to p.et into at this particular time. Mr.

Chairman, I hor.>e at some point in Committee the minister will respond to some questions I raised earlier about the tax yield because I think an item t~at is very germane to this whole decision that we are asl.ed to make is what, effectively what uill the yield be as a result of the increase - '{e are told it is going to he $7 million - hut even more important what will be the overall yield this particular year, the overall yield from retail sales tax?

I did indilcate that we had found by combing through the fip;ures some niscrepancies in the - not so much discrepancies, but there are some very large questions as to how the minister could expect the very sizable increase in yield that he was projecting, I heJieve, on page six of his budget speech. The Hinister of Yunicipal Affairs yesterday in attempting to rebut some of the things I had said, kept promising that he was going to answer these ~uestions. But he never did, Mr. Chairman, and I listened with :1 tlegree of attention, '·lr. Chairman, with a degree of attention. I did not hear any explanations.

I am hoping the minister in helping those who may be undecided as to where they stand on this resolutjon -r ~m quite oecided for many other reasons, quite apart from what Rmounts it could yield- hut i.n the interest of givin)! us a full picture, as I say, helping those who may be undecided, oerhar.>S the minister could expl:ol"in th:l,s hit of a quandary that we have :insofar as the projected tax yields from retail sales tax are concerned. It remains only, ~lr. Chairman, for me to reiterate on my own behalf and behalf of my colleagues on the official Opposition that we Hil1 vote against the resolution.

We feel very strongly about 93~

December 5, 1975. Tape 373 RH - 3 ~1r. Simmons : this. We oppose any increase in taxes in this particular year and for that reason we will be voting against the resolution. t!R • CHAIRMAN : The han. member for ~villingate. HR. S"fALI.WOOD: Mr. Chairman, there are two or three things about which there is no doubt and there can be no doubt: The government has got to balance its budget or 935

December 5, 1975, Tape 374, Page 1 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: Newfoundland is in deep trouble. To do that they have two ways o!'en to them; one is to increase revenue - and one way to increase revenue is to increase the rate of taxes or to im,ose new taxation - and the other way is to retrench, is to cut expenses. The way to disaster is to increase expenses and increase taxation.

That means utter disaster for Newfoundland, and so we here in this small group are puzzled as to what position it is right for a member of this House to take, not being a member of the administration, not being a supporter of the administration. What position ought we to take?

Newfoundlanders, members of the House representing a few thousand other Newfoundlanders,knowing that the government's budget is not balanced and that next year it is likely to be a terrible task to balance it, knowing that they have to have more revenue, knowing that they have to retrench and economize, here S!'ecifically is a tax that we are asked to ap,rove; two ,ercentage points increase in the sales tax raising it from 8 per cent to 10 per cent.

It would help us if the Minister of Finance could give us two fi~ures: What additional revenue will this tax change bring in a full vear - not iust the remainder of the present financial year which is four or five months but in a full year, next year -how much revenue t~i l.l this two percentage points increase fetch to the treasury?

And secondlv, how much loss in revenue or reduction in the tax burden on the population ho~ much reduction in the tax burden will be represented in a full year by the reduction in, or the elimination rather of this sales tax on clothing and such other things as there may be relieved of the tax? If ,for instance, Mr.

Chairman, it should turn out that in a full year the additional two percentage points which, as the Leader of the Opposition I think it was pointed out, is about 25 per cent increase in the ratP of taxation on the things that remain taxed, to remain taxed, if the increased burden imoosed on the general oopulation is equalled by the relief given to the general population by eliminating some articles from thP tax altogether, if they about balance out then the only question remaining is the kind of oeople affected (

a) by the relief given through 936

December 5, 1975, Tape 374, Page 2 -- apb KR. SMAlLWOOD: eliminating certain thi-ngs from the tax alto~ether and (

b) hov much additional tax is tmoosed on. Now, if the minister could give us that information it vould help us very much. lile do insi.st, and surely every hon . member of this nouse , in a Province such as Newfoundland vhere the vast ma.1ority of the people are not r~ch neople,people of quite modest means, ve nll of us, ouRht to insist on the great democratic principle in taxation of equalitv of sacrifice. 937

December 5, 1975 Mr. Smallwood. --·--- ----- Tape no. 375 Page 1 - mw They say one greet principle of taxation, Mr. Chairman, is that it does not matter how much you tax a man. What matters is '~hat is he left with after you have taxed him'. The same rate of tax imposed on Mr. A may leave him quite comfortable and leave Mr. B starving, the same rate. How much has a man got left after he pays his taxes , and what equality of sacrifice are you exacting, are you imposing, are you requiring frem the population in general?

I assume the government would like to get this legislation throug~ as quickly as possible, to bring it in to effect for the remainder of the financial year, because they are balancing the budget, and require to get the revenue for the remainder of the year. But without delaying things unduly, could the minister give us - Now he is free to get up and down in committee.

He can speak as frequently as he likes and so can any hon. member, I believe at this stage - could he give us some idea, and if he has not got that now, could he undertake to get it quickly from the Treasury Board or his experts in the Department of Finance? This would help us very much. MR. F. ROWE: Would you like to reply, Mr. Chairman, to that particular line of questioning or shall I carry on? I thought you were going to rise to answer the question. "'lR. CIIA IRMAN : The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: '1r.

Chairman, we have to oppose this particular resolution for the reasons mentioned by my colleague from Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir. Sir, this is the imposition of a tax increase in the order of 25 per cent. There is a 25 per cent increase in the sales tax, from 8 per cent to 10 per cent, and, Sir, the rate of increase is 25 per cent. Most hon. members can understand that there is no further explanation required • SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. CHAIRMAN : Kow, Mr. Chairman, do I have the floor or do I not. MR. CHA1R1-1AN : Order, please!

ner.ember 5, 1975 Tape no. 375 Page 2 - mw MR. F. ROWE: I will rephrase for the han. minister, Sir, that this increase in the sales tax represents a 25 per cent increase in the rate of sales tax being imposed on the people of this Province, and we are dead opposed to this particular increase for one very good reason, well for a number of good reason9, but one very good reason, and that is that the sales tax, Sir, is a regressive type of tax. It is not a fair tax in any case. We have it, most provinces have it, but it is a very unfair tax, because it is not based on a person's ability to pay. And, Mr.

Chairman, the federal government is responsible for personal income tax. That is a fair tax, because it is based on a person's ability to pay. The only question of fairness, with respect to the sales tax, comes when we talk about order of magnitude, when we talk about quantity, not quality. But with respect to the sales tax, the very tax itself is unfair. But we have it, the previous administration had it, and I imagine we will always have it.

But when we sock it, Sir, to the - the phrase used by my colleague - sock it to the ordinary people of this Province right across the board,25 per cent increase in that tax, it is unfair inspite of the exemptions mentioned by the Minister of Finance. I can go downtown, Sir, tonight, if I could afford it, and buy a $299 bra for my wife. Now is that a luxury item or is it not? MR. DOODY: It depends on how - MR. F. ROWE: Well it depends on whether you feel it is necessary or not. But, Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. F.

ROWE: I do not think I will carry on with other illustrations but the point is that you would probably have to use a ridiculous example to point out the inequities with respect to this particular tax. The exemptions are just put in there to make the thing look a litle rosier, 939

necewher 5, 1975 }'!>. IHW'F: Tape 376 IB-1 and T do not think it is going to solve the prohlem at all, t:r. Spea~:er. The real prohlem here, Sir, if you Jool< 11-t page II of the tah]es in the so callecl mini bui'pet, you look c1o~·'T1 the list of estimates, provincial and federal revenues. On page II, that is after the hud~et speech, Roman null'.eral s II, tab lei' estimates provincial and federal revenues. Sir, you go down through there and you can see of course thnt the 111ajor source of revenue for this Province is the federal f!Overm-.,ent.

If it "Was not for the fecleral government, 'We ~~ould be hotto!'ls np tonay. Ret '~hen you go down, Sir, through the ite111izecl 1 ist of provinci;d tax resources or sources and other sources - ''T'. St'Al.I.lf(1(1T): 1lhllt page? '1'. "F. "01-TF.: Pare !'oman nuwerals II first appendix, seccmd appenclix - yes, first appenclix, Poman numerals II.

You see, Sir, that the retail saJes tax represents the greatest provinci1lJ revenue source in this Province anY1o•ay. lind t!->ere is an increase here of apprnxil'lateJy­ presUinahly this $121\ rdll ion represents the increase. /uri_ l correct in that? ''11. nonnv: '!'here 11re t,.;o cr>lumns there . ,.,., 1' • llnT·!E : Yes, there are t~·!O columns there. The orip:inal estiwates of $107 1"11Ur>n :md the S126 1t1Ulion represents thE' increilse,I ~•oulil tnke it. Sn, Sir, it is a n increase of SJ.C) 111HJ1.on.

Fe ilre tnkinr- the sinrJe g n'<lt•'~r revP.nne source that :fs sJappe<' on the orciinary people of this rrnvincP, w• "re takinr the rreatest sin?le revenue source :mrl '''e are upinp, thnt. Tl1e '111est1on, Sir, js why can the government not find ;mother revrmue source Rnrl try to increase that rather than sock it to the or~inary people of t!'>is Province'?

T can J ook at t'·'C1 others that woulcl be fairer. ! think the pen;onal Income tax, although the revenue from that is projected to hP $RQ ~ i llion, T personally feel that an increase, a greater increase in the persona] income tax is Jllore f<1ir or js fairer than the 25 per ce.nt increase in the rate of sales tax because at least the personal income t<1X is hased on a person's ilbi]ity to pRy it. Tt hits the ric:h a little harder th"n :l.t hits the avera11:e and low i.ncome people. of this Province. 940

necember 5, 1975 TApe 376 IB-2 Hut, Sir, the real reason for the ~overnmen t bein~ forced into the corner of hitting the ordinary people of this Prov';i:rrce in­ t!i.scriminately, everybody rich, poor or average, the real reason car be seen if you analyze this page no. Il Again. That is that when it comes to revenue to this Province from rural ann industrial deveJ oproent we ret very low HStures indeed. Now hon. 111embers opposite may say thev inherited this from the previou~ ~iberal At!ministration. Rut, Sir, this was the administration that was p,oinp to change all that.

Pural an~ 1ndustrial development -we even han phrases like , full and total employment during election campaigns. Sir , the real reason why this administration is forced into hittin~ the ordinary people of this Province ~>•ith a 25 per cent increase in the rate of sales tax is that they have failee co~pletely and totally in their rural development and their industriAl development programmes, if in fact they had pt'ogrammes. We have heard a lot about planning and a lot ahout plannin~ and priorities conmittees - H1'1. DOODY: no not be nasty now. 1'1'. V. ROl-lE: No . ~r.

Speaker, J would like if it is in order, Sir, since ! have been asked not to be nasty by the hon. 111nister of finance, that we hnve had a peculiar phenomena or phenomenon entered i llto this llouse of recent rlays, and that is that everybody suddenJy hns been snyinf that we should not be partisan. 941

December 5, 1975 Tape No. 377 N~ - 1 ~. F. ROWE: We have got to deal with these things on a higher than a partisan level. Sir, I just checked the dictionary and checked out the definition of partisan, the dictionary is back in there now, but basically a partisan is a person who utters something in a very strong way, because he believes in something very strongly. And if I am going to be nasty or partisan, I will be nasty or partisan when I am trying to make a point. Because, Sir, it was not this party, it was hon. members opposite who raised the expectations of the people during two election campaigns.

There was no mention of increased taxes. As a matter of fact, Sir, it was the Liberal Party itself who was being accused of increasing~or making suggestions or stating policy that would require an increase in taxes. It was the Liberal Party, Sir, who suggested the abolition of School Tax Authorities - Well, that is another debate, and I would become irrelevant if I get into it. But the accusation was by P.C. candidates, Sir, that - how were they going to do this ~itheut raising taxes; we are not going to raise taxes. we are not going to advocate policies that would increase taxes in this Province.

So, Sir, the electorate got the strongest indication that this administration, full ahead with the Lower Churchill, no tax increases, further rural development, more industrial development, carry on with the Refinery, but what has happened, Sir? Instead of that we come tnto this bon. House with an pmPrgency budget, a mini-budget, which my friend from Bay d ' Espoir correctly call the real budget. Last year's budget was the mini-budget. The real budget was the budget following the election. Come By Chance collapsing around our ears. Lower Churchill - MR . CRAI~~ : Order, please! Order, please!

I would remind the hon. member that in Committee debate must be strictly relevant. I feel that some of the points being covered now were covered in previous debates. So I feel that he should observe the requirement for relevance very strictly. 94?.

December 5, 1975 Tape No. 377 NM- 2 MR. F. ROIJE: I thank you for your ruling, }lr.

Chairman, and I realize I was walking the razor's edge so to speak,but the case that I was trying to build up, and I am not challenging your ruling by any means, was that the fact that the government has been unsuccessful in grappling with the problems of rural and industrial development, they were unsuccessful in dealing with these problems in creating jobs and employment, circulation of dollars, generation of dollars into ~he Treasury of the Province through royalties, corporation taxes and what have you, the failure to do this has resulted in the government having to come in with this twenty- f~ve per cent increase in the sales tax which we find to be a very regressive tax and the point that I was making was that there is the gap, there is the big whole, that is the big reason why we have this resolution before the Committee today, because of the government's failure to plug that gap, to generate new dollars for this Province or for the Treasury.

So in case I am getting off this particular point and not being strictly relevant to the bill, Sir, I will get off that particular point. Now, Sir, I cannot agree with my hon. friend, the member for Twillingate. The feeling that I get in listening to the hon. member when he was speaking to this resolution, the feeling that I got is that he would be supporting the particular resolution because the hon. member feels very strongly now that we have to balance the budget at all cost.

I am not quoting the bon. ~mber exactly but I hope I am not misrepresenting what he had to say in just precising or generalizing what he indeed had to say, but the feeling I got ie that 94'3

December 5, 1975 Tape 378 PK - 1 he would be supportin~ this resolution because we have to balance the budget at all costs~ and the way to do it, of course, one way to do it is to increase the sales taxes and increase th~ personal income tax, at least the provincial aspect of it. Well, Sir, I do not know if I entirely agree with that. I think we can borrow within reasonable limits, the question is whether we have over-borrowed? We would like to see a small debt in the Province.

But, Sir, the point is that the government collectively, the government is not achieving a balance of the budget through these tax increases. The budget - the government is predicting - what is it,$11 million debt on current account? AN HON. MEMBER: $11 million deficit. --- --- ---- MR. F. ROWE: - deficit on current account. - -- ··---· AN HO~-~lfEMBER: For the current fiscal year. MR. F. ROWE: For the current fiscal year. -~,____QMALLT\FOOD: $11. 3 million. MR~~OWE: Now Sir- to be exact $11.3 million.

Now if this tax increase and the other resolution dealing with the other tax increase achieved the balancing of the budget we might have something to cheer about but however reluctantlv, we might have something to cheer ahout. But even with these tax increases, Sir, or the tax increases in this particular bill or resolution, we will not wipe out that $11.3 million deficit on current account, neither will the other resolution to come before the Committee, that will not achieve it, If it did •.e. m:fght have something very small to cheer about in the introduction of this resolution. It might. It might. MR. F.

ROWE: Might. Might. MR. SMALLWOOD: Next vear. M!_ .!!O~ _MEMBER : The thing is they are going to go ahead. ~. __ F_. ROWE: But, Sir, the fact of the matter is, is that the government has p.icked in my humble opinion the easiest and 944

December 5, 1975 Tape 378 PK - 2 Mr. F. Rowe: quickest and simplest way out of their troubles by - Sir, it sort of reminds me of Mohammed Ali and the punching bag. In this particular case, Sir, the government represents Mohammed Ali,and the punching bag is the people of Newfoundland collectively. because the government have elected to hit the ordinary people with the most regressive tax possible. If you take a poll tax and a propery tax, a poll tax in particular,that is probably more regressive.

But of all of the sources of revenue stated in this table, Sir, of provincial and federal revenues, of all the sources this is by far the simplest and easiest way out for the government to try and balance the budget but it is the hardest way in the world out for the people of this Province. MR. MOORES: What would you do about it? MR. F. ROWE: Oh;now here we go again, Mr. Chairman. What would we do about it? What 1~ould we do about it? Okay, Mr. Chairman, if I am permitted to answer the question, I will tell you one thing that we would not have done about it.

We would not have put this Province in the financial situation it is today by prematurely taking over BRINCo, and buying out BRINCo and putting the whole Lower Churchill Development in jeopardy when we got a minimum delay of one year, a minimum delay, Mr. Chairman, of one year on the Gull Island site, and before the tunnel goes through, before the high voltage direct current transmission line goes through they are contingent upon agreements with Hydro Quebec loans and grants from the provincial government - Sir, there is no guarantee in this world that the Gull Islsnd project will ever go ahead.

The Premier asked me, what we will do about it? I am telling the Premier, Sir, what we would not do, we would not place the debt of this Province in jeopardy by possibly having to finance this project to the tune of, at the present time, $2.3 billion. There is no guarantees about 945

December 5, 1Q75. MR. RO\-'E: Tape 37q RH - l money from Alberta. There is no guarantee of money from the Federal C~vernment. There is no guarantee of money,period! There is not even ~ P,u~r~nt~e nf a market for the electricity. PREMIER MOORES: The economic current is a~ainst us. HR. ROIVF.: Hr. Chai.rman; if I am provoked by bon. members opposite and if in the estimation of the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy I am on ~~hat. twit or twig! MR . CROSBY~: Twit, t-w-i-t, MR. Rnl.JE: v!ell, ~lr. Speaker, the han. Minister of Mines and Energy has often talked about not a .1ot, not a tittle and now, Mr.

SpeaV.er, we know this year and with this budget and with this tax increase "hat he means by not a .iot and not a tittle. ~R. CROSEIE: Get on with it, HR. CHAIRJ'IAN: Order, please! HT\. ROHE: Now, }fr. Chairman, I realize that I might rave been dragged a little hit off course but I would like to remind the Committee, Sir, that it is not the Opposition's ;oh to run and aclminister this Province >1nd we ,.1ill not he sucked in hy hon. members opposite, ministers or th~ Pre~ier, in trving to administer this Province from the Opposition l,0.nches . A •T 1'0~~. 'll'"lll'R: TTear!

Jl~>~r! lfl1 , RG"l': It is the Opposition's job to oppose constructively and sensibly and criticize constructively and sensibly and to make su~gestions where they feel necessary. But let it go on record in Committee, Sir, that it is not the Opposition's job to administer this Province. So it is a futile <JlWStion or request for the han. the Premier to ask us Hh:.t He wi 11 do. I do not think the han. the Premier was in his seat Hhen I was in fact maldng probal-ly, however indirect, suggestions as to what they should have done.

I wouln suggest, Sir, that they should have tTT.'Ir1e a grPater effort Hith respect to action in rural development jn this Province. 1ve had a Department of Rural Development with, in my estim11tion, Sir, a rather weak minister, nothing personal against the han. member, the gentleman now. 946

December 5, 1975. Tape 379 RR - 2 ~~. DOODY: You would not say that to his face now, would you? MR. ROvlli: , No, I would not say it to his face, Sir, because he "eighs about four times as much as I do. But the fact of the matter is, Sir, we had a weak department with a weak minister,in my estimation,,.rith all due respect to the person involved 1and we come into this hon. House in this session, Sir, and find out that the department has been wiped out and made a part of the Department of Industrial Development. So that is the importance that this administration now places on rural development after the election.

And Sir - ~m. DOODY: Are you bein~ relevant? ~'fR. ROWE: I am being very relevant, Mr. Chairman, because I am makinf!; sugRestions to the government that if they had been more successful in their rural development projectsJand implementation of their plans, and generated new dollars for people to spend,and ~enerated new dollars to come into the Treasury of this Province, we would not be faced with this tax hike today. And the same thinr, goes - is true for industrial development.

So, Sir, we are not meant,obviously,in Committee stage to make great lengthy speeches,although we can speak for forty-five minutes, the only thing, Sir, I can reiterate here in closing is that we find that balancing of budgets obviously is a most desirable thing. It is a desirable thing. These resolutions before the Committee at the present time and this resolution in particular will not achieve that, will not achieve it.

And we feel very strongly, Sir, that the government has picke·1 the easiest way out for the government, the simplest way out for the government~but the hardest way out for the people of this Province in imposing this sales tax increase with an order of magnitutde of 25 per cent on the sales tax, an increase of 25 per cent on the rate of the S.S.A. And this, Sir, is cruel with respect to the people of the Province. It hurts the little man and 947

December 5, 1975. MR. ROWE: Tape 379 RR - 3 not only the little man but the average, the greatest segment of our society now is the middle income earner. It increases the cost of livinp, for them. The exemption, Sir, I think, is just a little bit of decoration. 948

December 5, 1975, Tape 380, Page 1 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: The regulations with respect to the exemptions are window dressing. I do not think it is really going to be effective. The business of taking the sales tax offclothing does not help the little person any more than it helps the rich person. You can still go down and buy your expensive suits and not have the tax on it. So the exemptions, Sir, are pure window dressing.

What we have now, Sir, is the most regressive tax in this Province, a tax that hurts the ordinary and the middle income earner and slightly above, hits them very hard indeed and we are absolutely opposed to it, We will go on record as being opposed to it. We would have thought that this administration, after their great promises of rural and industrial development could have seen an area in this long list of sources of revenue, could have found another area to increase the provincial revenue in order to try to achieve a balancing of the budget.

But, Sir, it is criminal- that is probably an unparliamentary word - it is sad, sad indeed when we see a government coming in with an increase from 8 to 10 per cent, a 25 per cent increase, it is sad indeed to see this coming in at this present time and still estimate an $11.3 million on current account. So, Sir, the only thing that I can say is that we will not support th.is resolution. We think it is a sad move, a cruel move on the people of this Province and I am sure, Sir, that any member who looks at it from that point of view will vote against this particular resolution. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Before the bon. member rises perhaps the Chair could have a moment. It has been brought to my attention by the member for Baie Verte-White Bay, that eighteen students from Cape John Collegiate in LaScie with their teacher Mr. Halfyard are in attendance. We would bid you welcome and trust that your visit with us will be an instructive one. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Twillingate. 949

December 5, 1975, Tape 380, Pa~e 2 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, s short while a~o I asked the Minister of Finance if he could ~ive us figures for next year, for a whole year. I wonder if he has those figures or if he is going to - MR. DOODY: I have an estimate here. MR.

SMALLWOOD: - well it can only be an estimate, of course - before we are called on to vote1 I notice that on page It (Roman two) there are two figures here for the retail sales tax, provincial tax sources - first it is gasoline tax,then retail sales tax- the amount in the estimates, the original estimates brought in here last Spring and adopted by the House, is $107 million- $107,600,000- but now the revised estimates, presumably as a result of this two percentage point increase in sales tax and also as a result of eliminating some things from the sales tax altogether, the net result of all that is that $19 million more is to be raised in the remainder or in this current financial year. 'MR.

DOODY: MR. SMALLWOOD : 'MR. DOODY: MR. CHAIRMAN: 'MR. DOODY: Shall I try to correct that now? Yes, please! With the House's "ermission. The hon. the Minister of Finance. There are two factors in there, Mr. Chairman. One of them is the fact as is shown on page 6 of the Budget Speech itself which shows a projected increase of $11.4 million in respect to the retail sales tax that will be collected irrespective of the tax increase, and that is a direct benefit of inflation, if you will. The cost of goods went up to such an extent that the retail sales tax increased.

We hope to pick un the difference in the figure that you just quoted by the 2 per cent increase which is something in that nature of seven-point­ something million dollars, I think,which brings you pretty c).ose to the $19 million that you .1ust mentioned. 'MR. SMALLWOOD: In other words, Mr. Chairman, as I understand the minister, this increase of $19.2 million for this year, ·for the whole of this current year is not accounted for only by the increase in the taK for the remainder of the year. It is accounted for mainly by more sales or higher prices and the tax collected on higher prices. MR.

DOODY: That is exactly right, Sir. 950

December 5, 1975 Tape 3R1 IB-1 ''1'. ~"ALLHflOP: Of the $19,200,000 increase for the current year, how much of it is accounted for by the 2 percentage points increase for the remainder of the year? MJl. DOODY: Something over $7 million. }m. S~ALLWOOD: $7 million. Now then the crucial question: If the changes ~re to bring in $7 million more purely because of the 2 percentage points increase then obviously when the two are balanced the increased 2 percentage points on certain things and the removal of certain things from the tax altogether results in a net increase of $7 million. MR.

DOODY: And Who is it coming from. m.. SMALU.TOon: I did not hear the minister. MR. DOODY: I say you are going to ask me now who is it coming from or from whence. MR. SMALLWOOD: No. It is coming from the people in general. ~!>. DOODY: No, that is a point I would like to correct also which may - Maybe you and I can hop up and down. MR .• S't'ALLWOOn: l~ell, if I sit down would the minister - MR. DOODY: Yes because the questions you are asking are to the point and a lot of the rest is political rhetoric and - ~.

SMALLWOOD: Well, may I - every bon. member in the House has an inborn right and he has a constitutional right because he has been elected here to take what position he cares. For myself I am terribly concerned about the credit of this Province, its ability to go on the market and borrow money to build roads with and build schools and build hospitals and the rest. I am terribly concerned about the credit of the Province in the money markets of North America and the world.

Therefore, I am terribly concerned about, not the desirabilities 1 the hon. member Who just resumed his seat said, not the desirability of balancing the budget but the life and death importance of it in this Province at this time. It is life and death that we should balance the budget on current account. Let us go a couple of years - we are going to end this year with a deficit on current account of $11,300,000. Now, let us have another deficit next year, and I guarantee this committee that the 951

necember 5,1975 ~'11 , ~ 1ALLH00D : Tape 381 IB-2 year after you will not horrow a dollar in the worJ~. All that any lender, any bank,any lending institution has to look at is the recor~ of four years of spending and borrowing and the fourth and the fifth year current accounts deficits and they will not lend you a dollar. Now do we want to reach the point where Newfoundland's credit is exhausted? We reached it twice before. Sir Roberts Bond saved Newfoundland's neck the first time by pledging his own personal fortune. He was a rich man. He inherited his money.

Now it is no use the minister pledging his pri.vate fortune because that would not give the Province too much credit. But Bond was able to raise money by pledging his own personal fortune. That was the first time. The second time nobody could pledge anything and we could not borrow a dollar, and we went broke and we lost self government. Twi.ce he fore. Not~, I do not want to see a third til!'e, not in my lifetime. I do not want to see Newfoundland going broke in the sense that she cannot borrow a dollar because she has failed to balance her budget. Somebody said that I talked like a banker .

Well, I am the strangest banker, Mr. rbairman, that ever breathed,beliPve me. But I have a bitter recollection of a Province going bankrupt, this Province before we were a Province that is, when we were a country. Now, if in the current year,what is left of the current year the people are going to have to pay $7 million more, when everything has been taken into account -you have necember, January, February, ~'arch, four months - }~ .. DOODY: Hell that should be November also. l·m. S~ALLWOOD: It j s in effect - what month are we in. ''R. DOODY: Part of Novemher but not -no, no alright, you are right. MTl .

SMALLWOOD: It is about four months. If in four months, what is left of this financial year, if in those four months when you take it all into account you are going to collect 2 percentage points more from the people on certain things and you are going to exempt them altogether, not going to collect anything from them on certain other th1.ngs, l1ut when that is all put together there is an increase of $7 million in four months. 952

December 5, 1975 Tape no. 382 Page 1 - mw MR. SMALLWOOD: Well that is just on account of the - MR. DOODY: It does not work that way. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well it depends on when people do their buying. MR. DOODY: Yes, and - MR. SMALLWOOD: And they do a lot of buying in December month. MR. DOODY: That is right. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is true. But if it is $7 million with everything taken into account for the next four months, then it is going to be $15 million or $18 million for a whole year next year. Probably the Treasury Board would estimate that it would be of that order.

Now I have to ask myself - I got to cast a vote on this matter, and I am responsible in my own mind and my own conscience to the way I vote in this. I want Newfoundland to balance her budget, this year and next. She is not going to balance her budget this year. She is going to end with a deficit of $11 million. And what we are doing here this afternoon has a big effect on whether we are going to balance her budget next year. But how do you balance your budget in Newfoundland today? The House has agreed. I know, Mr.

Chairman, I am too well aware that when a matter is settled, you cannot, in the same session, revive it, and this House has settled the matter that they do not want expenditure decreased, and they do not want borrowing decreased, the House has settled on that. It was all but unanimous here. So you are not going to cut expenditure, and you are not going to cut borrowing, and you are not going to balance your budget this year- in God's name! Where are we headed? Where are we headed? As a province, as a government, as a people, where are we headed? But is this the way to balance the budget1 I say, no.

I will vote for increased taxes, new taxes that we are not imposing at all now, and I will vote for increasing certain taxes that we do have now. But before I can vote with a good clear conscience for increasing the sales tax so as to bring in $7 million more for the remainder of the year, in four. months, and $15 million or $16 million or $17 million more 953

December 5, 1975 Tape no. 382 Page 2 - mw next year, before I can conscientiously vote for that, I have to see a genuine attempt on the part of the government to do geuine economizing, and I do not see it. Now I know I am the only one, with a couple of others in the House, that want economizing and want - MR. DOODY: Oh, no. MR. SMALLWOOD: Oh, yes, I am. Oh, yes, I voted that way. "'R. DOODY: That is not true. MR. SMALLWOOD: I voted to have more economizing, anc more saving of borrowing -very modest, very modest wording. We regret the swelling of the debt - MR. DOODY: The inordinate swelling. MR.

SMALLWOOD: - and we would have eontolled borrowing in future. Very modest, and no! That is rejected,as everyone had a right to do. But having done it, does it not leave us in this predicament that if in addition to not cutting expenditure and not cutting borrowing, we nre going to have deficits. That is death and disaster for this Province. Now the Minister of Finance knows that.

He cannot for obviou~ reasons - he is the Minister of Finance and anything he says t s likely to he quoted in the financial papers and so on and could have considerable effect upon Newfoundland's status, Newfoundland's standing in the money markets of the world.

But the minister cannot be Minister of Finance and c~nnot have the Treasury Board as his elbow, at his fingertips with nll the information that they have got, and he cannot have the advice of the financial advisors, one of the big financial houses of the \·Torld, one of the big bond and investment houses of the world, he cannot have all that and not know what thin ice this Province is skating on right now. So I say, cut. If you do not 1-•ant to cut to the bone, all right, okay, do not cut to the bone, hut, Sir, before a year is over, the people of Newfoundland are going to remember my words.

We are in serious trouble. 954

December 5, 1975. Tape 383 RH - 1 1'!R. CHAIR¥ .AN: Order, please~ Order, please~ In budget debate one can ran~e across the full spectrum of the financial affairs of this Province. Powever, in Committee we do have to be more strictly to the point on the resolution before the Committee and I would just remind the hen. member about that without in any way deminishing any relevancy he is going to establish. MR • S11ALLWOOD: Hr. rhairman, I myself have made so many, many times sitting over there, the very point that Your Honour has just made, that in Committee it is line for line and word for word.

In Committee of the l~ole the sky is the limit. You are adopting a principle. Rut here is a particular case, I remind Your Honour, where the principle itself is under discussion, the principle of this increase. Remember that the budget debate is not over. If the budget debate were over, had been completed and then this resolution were brought in, Your Honour would have to rule out every worn spoken in Committee of the Whole that was not bearing instantly and immediately on the resolution itself.

But this is virtually a budget debate here in Committee of the ofuole because we have not yet finished the debate, you see,on the budget. However far be it from me to question Your Jlcmour's ruling. 1 accept it and will abide by it,of course. He have been debating here among ours"elves. We are in complete agreement that you have got to balance this budget, you have got to save Newfoundland from going bankrupt. We are in complete agreement on that. He ~mnt to help the government do it. We do not expect to be taking over thr· government in the next year or two. Quite frankly I will admit that. We do not expect it.

All right, but we do expect to be Newfoundlanders for the next year or two and we do expect, we do realize that it is our duty as Newfoundlanders in this particular crisis now to help the government. The member for Trinity-Bay de Verde said so rightly, so rightly,that the right to be partisan is the very 955

December 5, 1975. Tape 383 RH - 2 MR. SMALUIOOD: basis of party government, party politics. That is the whole Rritish system. Rut, Sir, there can come a moment in the life of a country or of a nrovince when purely partisan party, party, party loyalty, party interest, trying to advance the interest and the welfare of a party as such, that that sinks beneath the much greater consideration of the health and welfare of a whole country or of a whole province and I hold - MR. ~EC KFORn : That is political expediency- MR.

SHALLI-lOOD: I '1old that our duty 1 ~ hold that my duty is to help the government to balance the bunget,if they cannot do it this year, certainly to do it next year. But I do hold that the way to do it when you call on the people of Newfoundland to sacrifice,and you have ROt to do that, a government hates like poison to do it, of course it does, and frequently theopposition gloats privately over the predicament in l~hich the government finds itself. There they are, the so and so, they have got to sock it aboard the people now.

They have got to do this, they got to do that and they are sort of happy about it and the government are disgusted because they have to do it. But I think it ts bigger than that now. It is far more serious than that now, far more. I despair, I despair, Mr. Chairman, at making or helping to make all hon. memhers realize, realize the condition that this Province is in today, I despair. I doubt if very many agree that we are in - it is touch and go. The way however is to ask for sacrifice but equality of sacrifice. I do not see this as equality of sacrifice. 956

December 5, 1975 Tape No. 384 NM- 1 MR. SMALLWOOD:_ I do not see it. I agree that you cannot put the income tax very much higher on corporations, if you want corporations to come into Newfoundland. I agree that the personal income tax, that the average person himself or herself has to pay the government, the Government of Canada, the Government of Newfoundland, remember there are two personal income taxes. Every individual in Newfoundland is paying income tax on his income to the Government of Canada and tax on his income to the Government of Newfoundland.

There is a statute on our books, passed by this House, taxing the-people on their income. It is a provincial income tax. There is a statute on the statute books of Canada, passed by the Parliament of Canada taxing the income of every person in Newfoundland who has an income. So there are two income taxes. It is among the highest in Canada now. Our tax on the income of corporations, did the minister say it is the highest? I lost him in part. MR. DOODY: Three provinces. MR. SHALLWOOD: Three provinces. MR. DOODY: Manitoba is a little bit ahead of us I think. But we are getting there. MR.

SMALLWOOD: But it is a terribly high rate of tax. Okay, Well,so you are not going to get very much there. The--easy way, as the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde said, the easy way is to sock it aboard the sales tax because so many people have to spend money. If everybody in Newfoundland has to spend money and you are going to tax the things they spend it on, that is a quick and easy way to get revenue. But it is not necessarily the fairest way. It is not. And it does not bring about equality of sacrifice.

There is no equality of sacrifice when I, with my income, which is now with the increase, I am getting now, my pension is getting stopped, they have stopped my pension, You cannot be a member of the House and draw a pension for when you were a member ' before or when you were a minister before, my pension is stopped but I am getting more than my pension now in the form of sessional indemnity. So my income now is between $20,000 and $30,000 a year. 957

~~cemher 5, 1075 Tane No. 384 Nl-i - 2 s••JIL u~nnn: That iR mv p.ross incor.1e, --- "1'. nnnnY: Your 1~hat? ------ '"'. S"JILl,!·!nOT1: "" Ol·•n personal grosR f.ncome. '~':._._nnnnY: You have other sources. :-__~ SMJI.J.L_Hn~n:_ YeR, I am not li.ving just on the pens:fon - or not just on mv llousP of />.ssembl y . '_:J'~OnY: I ,,,as f!:oing to ask you row you did •,•i th it. ''P.. S~'ALL~non: T puhl !shed H in my 11utobiop,raphy. I have spelled it out. It is spelled out and -'~nonnY;_ You misunderstood, Sir, T meant l,ow you manap:ec to get that much monev as a member.

I Pas going to ask you to give me vonr s<>cret. ·~r_ . __ SMAy.~<ll]_n_p_;_ ' Jo, no! /Is a meml>er J got $11,000 11 v~ar as Prerr.fer, th:~t is not quHc four years ago T was getting $ll,Of\O a year aR Prem:f.er of this 'Province. And I was getting $10,000 ll. year as n !'lemher of thP House. So that vas ~21,nnn a vear. That 1-ms my in~nmf' uo to three and three quarter vears ago. Nm~ I was gett1n~ a pPns1on, hut I am not getting tt now, I am getting even better, T am gett:fnr, a S<'Rsional indemnity and thanks to the hon. t he 'Premier 1t ; ,, .1 hi.r.ppr indemni .tv than i.t Has in my time.

A:-.1 HnN. ~lf.I'TlET' : You 11re l--etter off than l·lh!'n vou Here l'remi er. -~ -- -~-- - --- .. '~ Sl'AT;!:!~~!)..:._ T am hetter off not-1 than <>hen r •-ms Premier, yes. '1o, 1 am not. I 1~ as ge.ttinp; $11,000 a year as Premier, ' t P Pl~CT<m Pn: PluR costs. ------ - '·':'_: S 'ALT,!\!(1~ "lus SlO , flOO a year, We wUl not make him 1-!inister of Ftnnnce, will ~f'? "I'. S"ALT}olnnn: No. ~To, !~e cannot make him minister for that. --- ------ ~:_r::_,_ S~'AL...J.WOO[): 1-lhv should I have to pa~r onlv the same :1s some. "•idm .r or old m:o~n or worker •··hose income in a yenr is $7,000, $8.000 958

December 5, 1975 Tape No. 384 NM- 3 HR. SMALLWOOD: $9,000? Why should r pay the same rate of tax, ten per cent,as he or she pays? That is not equality of sacrifice. That poorer person with a lesser income is sacrificing more to help balance the budget than I am paying. Now if you put it on my income tax I will squeal,as everybody does, but you know, I will pay it . ~laybe that is one way to get it. I do not know. But, Sir, do not put on this tax. Instead $7 udllion for the remai .nder of thi,; year , save $7 million on your spending. 95 9

necemher 5, 1975 J"'. S~'ALLWnnn: Tape 385 IB-1 Next year - oh no, the hon. member cannot say hear, hear. He does not ~<Ant a recluction in spending. He does not want a reduction in borrowing. No, he does not want that. I do. I want a reduction in both and balance the bud~et by spending less money and borrowin~ less. I know I cannot go all through that debate again. We ended that debate. We took a vote on it and that is disposed off. But I, with reluctance, I do genuinely want to help the p.overnment to balance its budget. They are not going to do it this year but next year.

You ~o not clare have an unbalanced budget next year. You would be hurting every livtng Newfoundlander, every soul in the Province. So you have got to balance your hudget next year. But do it,I beseech you 1by cutting in, cutting the fat off. There is so much fat in that budget! I did twenty-three budgets and I recognize fat when I see it, and the Premier knows I am right, what I am saying. He has got to know. Balance the bud~et by sav:l.ng not by - and if you are going to put on taxes, do not put it on the poorest of the poor. I am not happy about this. I am not happy to vote against helping the government now.

I am not happy about that. But I am afraid perhaps, J f my colleagues agree with me, I am afraid that we w:lll probably have to jo:ln w:lth the Opposition. Not that I mind joining with the Opposition. I do not mind if I am alone in this House. I do not mind evP.n if my colleagues vote differently from me. I will vote as I sP.e it. I have been alone be. fore. I have been alone. In the National Convention they socked me and they socked me and they soc•ec me but who won in the end? ~r.. DOODY: Newfoundland. ~fl'. SJo<ALLWOOn: Yes, and I with it, I with it. 1~e both won, Newfound]ancl and I. So 1 do nnt mind.

But I am going to vote, T think, againRt this tax. I think T will vote against it. I hate to ~o it but I think I will have to do it in conscience. I have to do it. Now, bring in econol'l.ies and I wi 1l back you, I will support you. Bring them in for the remainder of this year but even more important brtng them in next year, real econol'lies. If you cannot cut to the bone, at Jeast cut a few tons of fat off and get that total 960

nee-ember 5, 1975 Tape 3!!5 expenditure dol·m to less than three-ouarters of a billion, get tt down around S700 million. Now that means real economizin?. But IB-2 rlo it now and you •~Hl not have to do it three or four years from now. Do it now '-lhile you have a good majority, while you are ridin~t high, wide ann handsome. Now is the time to do it. Get her on an even keel, and I will help you to do it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. Minister of Provincial Affairs.

MR. }qJJ!.PHY: ~!r. r.hairman, I am just going to take a very few short moments because I know we are anxious to get on with this very important piece of legislat:l.on. Now, nobody but nobody wants tn stand up and say how happy they are to see taxes going on anybody. But I think it is my duty perhaps as a member of this House for a ~ood many years, havi .ng spoken in many budget debates, having heard arguments put forward by the last speaker, the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (~r.

Smallwood) as to the necessity of putting certain taxes on to provide - not only to bal.ance the budget, that is only a phrase we use - but to make monies available so that the services that we ren~er these people as a r,overnment,which is our responsibility, that :ts what tve can C!o wi.th these monies. I Jrno"' verv '"ell that the hen. member for Twillingate (}<r.

Smallwood) recalls very, very clearly,as T. do,the famous chocolate bar burlp.et that came into this House,where they reduced the exemption from fifteen cents d.otm to eight cents so that the chocolate bar and the bottle of pop could be taxed that they took out of school childrens' mouths. But, I want to say things perhaps a littJe more serious than that at this pnrticular time. That is, ~r. Chairman, the performance of this government in the three short years that we have been i.n power. T have had the priv1J e~e, the hardships, 961

December 5, 1975 Tape 386 PK - 1 -~12.-. -~u_ryhy :_ the worries, the aggravations as the Minister of Social Services of this Province for some two and a-half years. My colleage, the Minister of Tourism,who is not in the House now, preceded me in that portfolio for a few short months. He took over, Mr. Chairman, if I mav say a department where the people, the undernrivile~ed people of this Province were flattened right into the ground, absolutely flattened, Sir, by repressive rates that were paid to these people who could not help themselves.

In three short years, Sir, we have increased welfare rates in many instances 80 per cent. Now I do not know what that increase is on the rate as it was paid, as the hon. member I remind him, we are increasing the rate of sales tax by 25 per cent, and I say any per cent increase we put on the welfare rate represented some 1,000 per cent on the rate that were paid welfare clients. That took an awful, awful lot of money. It was not thrown away. We upgraded every area of our social affairs in this government. What else did we do?

We removed the sales tax on children's clothing that we had promised to do four years before. How many millions did that entail? How many millions? Who benefited? Who benefited aost? That lady down there on Carter's Hill with eight children, that is who benefited the most, not the so-called rich man,if you like,with one or nro in family, but the toiling masses that we so often heard referrerl to in this House. The big families benefited. What next dirl ~~e do? We_ took the sales tax off fuel oil, eh. That meant nothin~, eh. No one benefited by that. More tyranny on the part of this preat tJrannical government.

Did anybody mention that - did thev even dare to let a whisper drop that thia government harl done ~omething for the ~eople of this Province? You know, Mr. Chairman, I do get a little bit irritated sitting h~re in this seat on times to hear today remarks passed, the memher for Twillingate ("'r. Smalh~ood) says, cutback, cutoff the fat. ~ow another member today wanted the Minister of ~ighways to weigh the salt: - 11ow manv p,allons did you put on the Conception Bay Highway last 962

Decemher 5, 1975 Tape 386 PK- 2 night? How many gallons? How many pounds? Here is the crowd want to cutback. ~- · -F..:.. ROWE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As I was brought to order on the ground of relevancy,! believe the hon.minister has just gone through a review of his departmental policy and now he is getting into transportation and communications, and MR. MURPHY: Ho, ho, ho! Come on 'Fred! Sit down! MR. F. 'ROWF.: it is not relevant to the particular resolution before the Committee, Sir. So I would ask that the same ruling be applied to the bon. minister as applied to bon. members on this Ride. MR.

W. neoDY: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order, Sir. I think we have allowed the Committee wide ranging debate on this aide of the House, and we have not really interrupted anybody across the way to speak on whatever area he wish to speak, and I think we have heen most tolerant. I think the same courtesy could be allowed my colleague. MR. CHAIRMAN: However the ehair has taken the position in terms of relevance and I would remind the hon. minister that he has to establish that his remarks are relevant to the motion and I would expect him to do so in the near future. MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

But when you are speaking of expenditures and you are speaking of revenues you cannot be any more relevant than I have been. We want to put another 2 per cent on the sales tax. For what? To share it up between the seventeen or eighteen members in Cabinet. MR~SMALLWOOD :_ It is going up two percentage points, not 2 per cent. MR.-"~RPHY: We are putting 2 per cent on the sales tax or increased it from 8 per cent to 10 per cent, increasing the rate of tax 25 per cent. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. MR. MURPHY: Am I wrong? Are we increasing it to 25 - is it going up to 33 per cent, Mr. - 963

necemher 5, 1975 Tape 386 PK- 3 _1:~- - -I,):OOD.!_:_ No, Sir. MR. __ M!!,_RPHY: Hell let us let the people of the Province know who have not the ~reat intellectual ability of some members of this House to talk of the increases in rates. They want to know how much the sales tax is going up - 964

December 5, 1975 Mr. Murphy. Tape no. 387 Page 1 - mw two per cent, from eight to ten, eight, nine, ten. Eight. nine, ten. That is two per cent, right? MR. SMALLWOOD: No, wrong, wrong~ SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! AN RON. MEMBER: Twenty-five per cent. MR. MURPHY: Two percentage points, right? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. MURPHY: It increased from eight per cent to ten per cent. MR. SMALLWOOD: Twenty-five per cent. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAI~~: Order, please! MR. MURPHY: Twenty-five per cent on the rate but two per cent on the dollar. Am I right on that or am I wrong? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MURPHY: Am I right on that or wrong? Is it two cents or twenty-five cents? You know, let us all talk about the same thing. If we are going to debate it, let us all know what we are talking about. But, Mr. Chairman, as I said, I did not want to take too long but r think some of these things should be put before this House so that the public will know just what is happening, and what we have done. We dtd not come in here in the Fall of 1971 and then back again in the Spring of 1972 and start in driving on taxes.

We can cut $1 million, $2 million, $5 million, $8 million, $10 million off the budget iust as easy as this. I could now make a motion - I do not know tf I could do it now but in a budget I could do it. Instead of giving $230 ~illion for our schools and education, cut off $30 million. Right? Here we have 28,550 ?Ublic servants - I do not think we call them civil servants any more, public servants - being paid $345 million. That is the figure, an average of $12,000.

I will bet anybody in this House that the average civil servant , since we came in, has increased his salary a minimum of fifty per cent, pretty well everyone, pretty well everyone. Where did that $345 million go? Does someone want to tell me and tell this House that these public servants do not need the money? 965

December 5, 1975 Mr. Murphy. Tape no. 3!17 Page 2 Talk nhout cut off the fat. You could lop a lot of lard off that if vou wanted to, hut there are a lot of poor civil servants who are goin g to get back to the days ,Jhen they were being paid less than .the rate that is now considered a livable rate. lo/e increased the minimum wage from, I think, $1. 80 MR,_ PE~~~I?.:_ $1. 10. MR. MURPHY: When we came in it was $1.10, up to $2.50- 250 per cent increase, 225 per cent increase. What a repressive government! Is it not terrible the way we treat ' fR. ROBERTS : lo/hat was that percentage figure again? XR.

HURP!!Y: We increased it 130 per cent. It is twice and one-quarter HR.RORERTS: You have it wrong, ~ • ' lURPIIY : 'fR. ROBERTS: Well, we doubled it. That is $2.20 right? It cost the Province or the government nothing, good move as it was. MR. 1\fiJRPHY: It all applied right to the service. I am .iust talking about some of the social legislation that we did put through. And now, and I am sure that the Minister of Finance, when he gets a chance to reply, if some of us people will sit down and let