Manitoba Hansard — 1 June 2010 (Sitting 54B, 39th Legislature, 4th Session)

39-4-54b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXII No. 54B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 1, 2010 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P.

MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WIEBE, Matt Concordia N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

2611 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 1, 2010 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Multiple Myeloma Treatments Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: Health Canada has approved the use of Revlimid for patients with multiple myeloma, a rare, progressive and fatal blood cancer. Revlimid is a vital new treatment that must be accessible to all patients in Manitoba for this life-threatening cancer of the blood cells.

Multiple myeloma is treatable, and new, innovative therapies like Revlimid can extend survival and enhance quality of life for the estimated 2,100 Canadians diagnosed annually. The provinces of Ontario, Québec, British Columbia, Saskatchewan and Alberta have already listed this drug on their respective pharmacare formularies. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: That the provincial government consider immediately providing Revlimid as a choice to patients with multiple myeloma and their health-care providers in Manitoba through public funding. This is signed by L. Cavers, J. Kost, B.

Leger and many, many others, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. PTH 16 and PTH 5 North–Traffic Signals Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The junction of PTH 16 and PTH 5 north is an increasingly busy intersection which is used by motorists and pedestrians alike. The Town of Neepawa ha s raised concerns with the Highway Traffic Board about safety levels at this intersection.

The Town of Neepawa has also passed a resolution requesting that Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation install traffic lights at this intersection in order to increase safety. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider making the installation of traffic lights at the intersection of PTH 16 and PTH 5 north a priority project in order to help protect the safety of the motorists and pedestrians who use it. And this petition is signed by C. Unger, D. Buchanan, B. Meyers and many, many other fine Manitobans.

Multiple Myeloma Treatments Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: Health Canada has approved the use of Revlimid for patients with multiple myeloma, a rare, progressive and fatal form of blood cancer. Revlimid is a vital new treatment that must be accessible to all patients in Manitoba for this life-threatening cancer of the blood cells.

Multiple myeloma is treatable, and new, innovative therapies like Revlimid can extend survival, and enhanced quality of life for the estimated 2,100 Canadians diagnosed annually. The provinces of Ontario, Québec, British Columbia, Saskatchewan and Alberta have already listed this drug on their respective pharmacare 'formulature.' We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

2612 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 That the provincial government consider immediately providing Revlimid as a choice to patients with multiple myeloma and their health-care providers in Manitoba through public funding. D. Johnston, L. Vokovich, P. Banipal and many others. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today, we have Zeev Keedem, JNF-KKL executive from Israel; Frank Wilson, national Canadian president of the JNFL; and Joe Robinovitch, national vice-president of JNF; and Mel Lazareck, president, Jewish National Fund, from the Prairie Division, who are the guests of the honourable Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms. Melnick). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.

Also in the public gallery we have from Centennial School, we have 19 grade 4 students under the direction of Ms. Cindy Renaud. This school is located in th e constituen cy of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). Also in the public gallery we have from Luxton School, we have 25 grade 4, 5 and 6 students under the direction of Ms. Sandy Bissoon. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services and Consumer Affairs (Mr. Mackintosh). And also in the public gallery we have from St. Edward's School, we have 90 grade 4 to 6 students under the direction of Ms.

Linda Doyle. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister for Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Ms. Marcelino). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Gage Guimond Death Sentencing Appeal Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, at the outset, I'd just like to congratulate Tova and Larry Vickar, who will be honoured tonight at the Negev Gala. Mr. Speaker, as far as question period today, we all know that next month Gage Guimond should have been celebrating his fifth birthday.

He will not celebrate that birthday, and the reason that he won't is because the grown-ups that were supposed to care for and protect him failed. They failed in terrible and repeated ways. Yesterday, Gage Guimond was failed again when the person ultimately responsible for his death was sentenced to a mere 18 months of house arrest. I want to ask the Premier whether he agrees that this little boy's life was more valuable than what the sentence yesterday reflected and will his government be appealing this decision. Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I also would like to extend my congratulations to Larry and Tova Vickar for the award they'll receive tonight at the Negev Gala. This decision that was made by the courts is one that we are obviously disappointed in. Gage Guimond lost his life tragically. We really believe that the recommendation of the Crown to have jail time would have been appropriate in this case and, of course, the Crown will be taking this decision under review and deciding what next steps they wish to take. It is important, however, that action has already been taken.

The Southeast authority removed the case manager, changed the workers, have implemented better procedures, and we have moved forward with very sign ificant investments in additional case workers for this program, additional foster homes. In other words, we have made investments to strengthen the system so that these kinds of events do not happen and that there are more resources to serve families and children involved with the child welfare system. Child and Family Services Agencies Accountability Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Premier for the remarks with respect to the–with the appeal issue, but we know, in addition, that not only have there been failings in the justice system with what happened this morning but very significant failures within Child and Family Services, two different departments of government failing, two different systems failing this little boy. We know, Mr. Speaker, that he had been placed with a loving, caring family in Selkirk. He was removed from that placement. He was put in harm's way in what can be described as a decision motivated

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2613 by something other than what is clearly in the best interest of this child. I want to ask the Premier: With failures in the justice system and failures in Child and Family Services, who ultimately in his government will take responsibility for this terrible situation and will he today commit that it can never happen again in our province of Manitoba? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, again, this was a tragic case.

We are disappointed in the decision of the courts. * (13:40) We did, in 2008, change The Child and Family Services Act to make child safety paramount consideration in any disposition of a child welfare case, any resources that are provided to it. We have provided an additional 230 positions. There are an additional 2,200 foster homes that have been made available through reference and recruitment that have done on behalf of this government.

There is no question that we have to continue to invest in our child welfare system to ensure good training for worker s, to ensure good supervision and to make sure there are adequate resources in order to allow children and families that come into care to receive the kinds of supports they need and the kind of oversight that will ensure safety of children is paramount. And that is why we changed the law, to make that absolutely clear that is the No. 1 priority. Mr. McFadyen: Well, Mr. Speaker, it was his government that rushed the devolution process that led to so much of this chaos.

It was rushed for political reasons. They failed to take due care in the handover of files, and they proceeded with an approach that put other considerations ahead of the safety and the well-being of these children. So the legislative change that came at our request came following thes e events, Mr. Speaker. But as we know, changing legislation in this House is one thing; actually making changes on the ground through the system in terms of attitudes, practices, leadership and management throughout the system is critical. We're not satisfied th at that has happened to date.

Will the Premier take personal responsibility for ensuring that his government does everything it can do to prevent any such tragedy from occurring ever again in our province? Mr. Selinger: Our government is very committed to providing adequate resources for the child welfare system. That is the essence of the decisions we made in our budget this year to protect front-line services. The members know that. They didn't necessarily agree with that at the time of budget. What we do have to recommend here and what we do have to remember is that these kinds of cases require additional vigilance.

They require clarity in terms of the mandate under which people operate. We have provided that clarity in terms of the legal mandate. We have provided additional resources. We will continue to work to ensure that further resources are put in place to do the prevention side of child welfare so that children do not have to come into care. That is an important investment that we have made a commitment to in our last few budgets, to have those resources. I'm pleased that the federal government has agreed to fund with us this year some of those prevention resource–programming.

So we will move from prevention to proper care, to proper supervision and clarity of mandate. These are the things a government can do. These are the things we will do. These are the things we are doing. Child and Family Services Agencies Accountability Mrs. Bonnie Mitche lson (River East): But more resources do nothing when a child is placed in an unsafe circumstance as the result of policies that have been put in place by a government. Mr. Speaker, the minister has many times said that the buck stops with him, that he's accountable for Manitobans–for–to Manitobans for children under his care.

Gage Guimond's death occurred as a direct result of the system this NDP government put in place that was supposed to protect the most vulnerable children in our province. It has failed miserably and justice has not been served. Will he today take responsibility and fix the chaos in the system that his government created? Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Consumer Affairs): Well, first, we want to extend once again our condolences and our thoughts to the survivors of Gage Guimond, to the family, to the former foster family and to many, many who have been so deeply wounded and affected by this tragic loss. And as well, we want to express our deep disappointment in the outcome on the decision of the

2614 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 court not to accept the Crown's submission this morning, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, when it comes to actions, though, that are immediately within the purview of the government, the Changes for Children initiative has been launched, and, indeed, as a result of the tragic death of Gage Guimond, this House passed what I would call Gage's law to ensure that safety is paramount when considering the best interests of the child. Mrs.

Mitchelson: We know for a fact that there are families that are coming forward that are very concerned that the practices that surrounded the move of Gage Guimond are still happening in the system today, Mr. Speaker. And I would just like to ask the Minister of Family Services whether he'll finally–finally–show some leadership and put a halt to the practice of ripping vulnerable children out of long-term foster homes and review every case on an individual basis to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, first, with regard to the death of Gage, there was a full review, a very comprehensive review, both of the particular case and of the agency and some systemic issues around that that bore on the–on Gage's case. And all of the cases that were handled by those workers were reviewed. But as a result, we have seen, in the last three years, after inheriting what has been described as a broken child welfare system, this government went to work and, as a result of the insights of my predecessor, very, very– [interjection] Mr.

Speaker, having asked a question, I would anticipate they would want an answer. But my predecessor ordered very extensive outside reviews as well, Mr. Speaker. So, as a result, we have made new investments, a 60 percent budget increase, $112 million, to make sure that– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, Mr. Speaker, and more resources, again, don't make up for government policy that moves children into unsafe circumstances, and it was a direct result of this government's legislation and policy that led to Gage Guimond's death. And, Mr.

Speaker, agencies set up by this government are still making plans to move kids from loving foster homes without proper planning, without the proper checks and balances in place. How many more warriors of change like Gage Guimond are there going to be before this government shows some leadership and takes responsibility for kids in their care? It's not acceptable. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the member is drawing her own conclusions despite the findings of the outside reviews, despite the findings of the Gage Guimond reviews, specifically where there was an agency that simply was not applying the standards that are in place in this province to ensure the safety of children, which is why Gage's law was brought in by this Chamber. That's why there's 2,200 more foster beds. That's why there are only about two children on average a week in the hotels versus 166 just a few years ago. That's why foster rates are going up, not down, as under members opposite.

That's why 230 new positions have been funded. That's why there is an over haul of child welfare that is occurring in the province of Manitoba. And I might just conclude by saying that the Auditor General has just concluded, after her review, she said, I am extremely impressed with the amount of energy and effort that has gone into addressing not just our reports, but those that have been issued by the Ombudsman and the Children's Advocate. We've seen real improvement. Mr. Speaker: Order. Vince Li Supervised Pass Review Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, Vince Li was responsible for the horrific beheading of Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus. Less than two years later it's being recommended that Mr. Li be allowed out into a portion of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre that has no barrier between him and the community. Understandably, there is both concern and anger among community members, and I would say, among most Manitobans. Will this Minister of Justice commit today to ensure that every legal mechanism is used to ensure that Mr. Li will not receive passes into an area that's not secured? Hon. Andrew Swan (Min ister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I thank the member for the question because it is a question which many Manitobans are interested in hearing

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2615 about. And I think the member should be aware that there is a committee called the Criminal Code Review Board which is hearing Mr. Li's case. That is a committee which is required by the Criminal Code of Canada. It's established here in Manitoba by the Manitoba government. It has heard that evidence and will be making its independent decision in due course. The comments my friend is talking about are recommendations which were made by a medical doctor, and I'm not going to stand here and either agree with or disagree with the recommendations of that doctor.

We expect the board to make a decision that's consistent with public safety, a decision that's consistent with the law, and, Mr. Speaker, as the Attorney General, I will not interfere with its independent obligations. * (13:50) Mr. Goertzen: You don't need a Ph.D. and you don't need to be the Minister of Justice to know that this recommendation is wrong.

It was only a few months ago that a new security review was undertaken at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre when a patient who had killed his stepmother was found to have a knife, drugs, alcohol and cash and was having a romantic relationship with somebody who was working at the facility. It's little wonder that community members and Manitobans are concerned. This Minister of Justic e needs to give assurance to the community and people living near the community that this board, when it brings forward this recommendation, that he will ensure that if the recommendation is to allow Mr.

Li out into an unsecure area, he will use every legal mechanism to either appeal or move Mr. Li to a facility outside of Manitoba where there can be secured custody. Mr. Swan: Well, the member for Steinbach can talk about Ph.D.s. I would think someone who has a law degree would understand the limited role of the Attorney General. But let me put on the record, there's a very experienced Crown attorn ey. There is a Crown attorney who is dedicated to dealing with these cases before the Criminal Code Review Board.

I can tell the member for Steinbach and I can tell this House that that Crown attorney has opposed what the medical doctor has suggested. So, the Crown has taken a very strong position, has put that evidence before this independent board, which will make its decision in due course. We will ensure that public safety is a priority and the paramount consideration when that board comes back and makes its independent decision, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Goertzen: The vast majority of Manitobans wouldn't have a law degree, but they are full of common sense.

They have lots of common sense, and they would know that common sense isn't that an individual who, less than two years ago, was found responsible for beheading somebody on a Greyhound bus, should not be up for unsupervised or to be put in a position where there isn't a secured facility, where there's no barrier between himself and the community. I'm asking the Minister of Justice whether or not he will ensure if this report comes back and the board comes back and says that this should go ahead, whether or not they'll look for an out- of-province facility that can ensure that Mr.

Li has not–is not put into a position where ther e's no barrier between him and community. Will he give that assurance for those who are living in Selkirk and around Selkirk? Mr. Swan: Mr. Speaker, I think it's very dangerous for the member opposite to be fearmongering and putting incorrect information on the record. The recommendation put forward– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Let's have a little decorum, please. Order. The honourable Attorney General has the floor. Mr. Swan: The recommendation put forward was for relatively short supervised periods outside of the centre.

Let me repeat, the Crown attorney representing all of us, representing the people of Manitoba, opposes that recommendation and has put forward that position very clearly to the board. I support the Crown's move on that, as I believe most members of this House do. But let me make it abundantly clear, this is an independent body which is going to make an independent decision, and for the member opposite to suggest the Attorney General should try to demand that a judge or that a tribunal or that an independent party come to a particular decision, is simply wrong, and more than that, it

2616 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 strikes at the very heart of the democratic system that we enjoy in this province and in this country. I expect better from the member for Steinbach, Mr. Speaker. Social Assistance Benefit Restriction for Outstanding Warrants Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): And I'm sure that Manitobans– Mr. Speaker: On a new question. Mr. Goertzen: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. I'm sure that Manitobans expect better than this weak Minister of Justice on so many different fronts.

Today in Ottawa the federal Conservative government introduced legislation that cut off income to support prisoners who are in their seniors years, including Clifford Olson. The government also announced that it was working with the provinces to ensure that no provincial benefits are available to inmates in provincial jails, and we applaud those efforts by the federal Conservative government. Yet, here in Manitoba, there is no specific provision to prevent individuals who have serious outstanding warrants for offences like child molestation, for violent offences, from getting taxpayer-funded welfare.

Won't this minister commit to support legislation, which is going to be debated on Thursday morning, which would stop those with serious outstanding warrants from getting taxpayer-funded welfare in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Andrew Swan (Min ister of Justice and Attorney General): In fact, I'll take the tone down a step. I appreciate the member for Steinbach putting this idea forward, and I have already asked my department to carefully review the position that he is putting forward. There is some logic and there is some sense to what's being proposed.

But I want members to understand that it is not simply a matter of snapping our fingers and suggesting this will work. There are some concerns that have been expressed on the constitutional law front, some concerns expressed on the human rights front, and it's my job as minister to listen very carefully to those concerns. So we will– [interjection] I'm surprised that the members opposite would be chattering away, Mr. Speaker. I actually am taking this quite seriously, and if it is something that can improve the administration of justice in the province of Manitoba, we will give it serious consideration. Mr.

Goertzen: The minister has had a week to review the idea and all he can come up with in that week is excuses. And yet we see other governments. We see the federal Conservative government acting on legislation that protect taxpayers' dollars. We saw the Saskatchewan government move yesterday to ensure a system of charging inmates for the use of a telephone and recording those telephone conversations to ensure that there's better activity monitoring in the prison system. The public is demanding that these taxpayers be protected.

On-line polls indicated that 90 percent of Manitobans supported legislation that would stop welfare payments from going to individuals who have serious outstanding warrants, like those who have violent offences or sexual offences. I just want to ask the minister today: Will he commit to getting this legislation passed before the House rises so that we can ensure that taxpayers' dollars are no longer being squandered for those who are breaking and avoiding the law? Mr. Swan: Again, it's interesting the member wants to talk about what the government in Ottawa is doing.

We made it very clear that we support the government in Ottawa, whatever flavour of government that may be, when they move in the right direction. We will criticize that government when they move in the wrong direction. I'm very pleased that the federal government in Ottawa has listened very car efully to what Manitoba has had to say on the crime front and has moved many, many improvements to the system based on Manitoba's advice.

And perhaps the member for Steinbach could reflect on the fact that now gang murders are automatically considered first-degree murder because of Manitoba's efforts, because of my predecessors and becaus e of the clear, strong position put forward by Manitoba. The member for Steinbach should know that there's now a new drive-by shooting offence with increased penalties because of the strong voice of Manitoba.

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2617 We are going to continue to work with Ottawa– Mr. Speaker: Order. State of Emergency Designation Criteria Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): As you know, the last few days have been stressful and devastating for Manitobans affected by the torrential rains and flooding. Provincial and municipal officials have responded quickly and effectively to the situation. I would like to thank the Premier (Mr. Selinger) and the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms. Melnick) for visiting my constituency first-hand to see the extensive damage in communities like Emerson.

I also appreci ate the Minister of Agriculture's (Mr. Struthers) invitation to tour other impacted areas to assess crop damage. My question is for the Premier: Can he give us a clear understanding of what criteria determines a disaster designation, and who is responsible for declaring that a disaster? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Well, first of all, I want to thank the member for paying tribute to the response this weekend by our municipal and provincial officials, and I particularly want to note the role of many of our mayors and reeves and councils.

It certainly was a significant event, a one-in-50-year rainstorm, and it certainly had a very significant impact in Emerson. I was in Ottawa yesterday, actually meeting in regards to the flood mitigation, and certainly passed on the impact to the member's area of the province and many other areas. I do want to indicate, by the way, that eligibility for disaster financial assistance is not related to any declaration of a local state of emergency. There's some confusion. I know that often occurs with the American system.

The Premier yesterday indicated that we're anticipating there will be a disaster flood assistance program in pla ce, and look forward to more– Mr. Speaker: Order. Flooding (Emerson) Disaster Financial Assistance Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, the town of Emerson is unique in that it is completely surrounded by a ring dike, creating a bowl effect. When a community is faced with back-to-back heavy rain events, it creates sign ificant challenges. That's what happened this past week. There was a rain a few days ago followed by torrential rains on Saturday.

The town's drainage system could not keep up and the ground became supersaturated. Water entered basements through window wells, via gas lines or underground hydro entrances and foundation cracks. * (14:00) Mr. Speaker, will the Premier indicate if Emerson's residents affected in this way will be eligible for financial assistance? This wasn't sewage backup; it was rain. Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we had an excellent meeting with the mayor and council yesterday in Emerson. We discussed their specific circumstances.

They are aware of the requirements to develop an impact statement of what happened in that community, particularly with respect to overland flooding. Overland flooding is eligible for support under the Disaster Financial Assistance program. We have doubled that support from 100 to 200 thousand dollars. We have also increased the level of support that under the Disaster Financial Assistance program over $5 per capita damage, and this is particularly beneficial to smaller communities like Emerson.

They were made aware of both of these benefits in the program, and they are very clear on what requirements are needed to compile the information, to take the names and addresses of people that have been affected and to pull that together and submit it to the Emergency Measures department under the minister responsible for that program. Mr. Graydon: Mr. Speaker, there seems to be some definition issues with overland flooding and basement in the–or water in the basements. My leader and I today visited with a senior who lives in a home that is on higher ground in Emerson. Her name is Shirley Boese.

She received several inches of water in her basement as a re sult of recent rains. It's not sewage backup; it's clean water. Her family pumped out the basement yesterday, but the water rose again last night. Th ey're very worried about whether she will receive financial assistance from the Province. Mr. Speaker, can the minister assure Manitobans affected in this way, that they will receive financial assistance from the Province? They need to know. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Mr. Speaker, the Disaster

2618 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 Financial Assistance program is available. We've already indicated, given the severe impact, that we'll be putting a program in place. It's there for non-insurable losses. I can't talk about individual cases, obviously. We would encourage the member to ask his constituent to apply. Certainly that is the situation across the province; where there's non-insurable losses we do have coverage under Disaster Financial Assistance. There's also the agricultural coverage, and I want to note that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Struthers) is touring a lot of the affected areas. We're certainly aware of the significant impact on the agricultural community. What I would encourage the member to do is to make sure that his constituent does contact EMO or perhaps the municipal office immediately. We will make sure we assess the situation, and I can indicate there will be a Disaster Financial Assistance program that covers non-insurable losses under the criteria of the program that's been in place across the province. Regional Development Corporations Funding Decrease Mr.

Blaine Pedersen (Carman): Manitoba's regional development corporations have been advised that a new two-year funding agreement is to be signed soon between the RDCs and the provincial government. The RDCs have also been advised that their funding will be cut by 10 percent for the next two years. This government has money to build a football stadium but not for rural and northern business development. Why is this NDP government cutting funding to the very organizations that promote business development in rural Manitoba? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the question from the member opposite. We have been meeting with many of the RDCs that he speaks about. We have talked about funding challenges. We've talked about funding issues that we're dealing with. We're working, I think, very well with the regional development corporations to look at the way in which they're approaching regional development in each of the regions of the province and looking for ways to make it better.

I think there are improvements that we can make, and I was very pleased with the feedback I got from the RDCs in terms of how to improve that to make it better for all of our constituents. Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, in the Estimates book for Manitoba Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives, one of the department's stated objectives is, and I quote: increase the capacity of rural and northern communities to drive local economic development, end of quote.

Yet, on top of these funding cuts the regional–to the regional development corporations, this government has also discontinued the Manitoba Community Profiles Web site. This hampers prospective businesses from around the world from perusing Manitoba communities' profiles in one central location. Why would this NDP government unilaterally withdraw the Community Profiles Web site? Is promoting rural business development not a priority? Mr. Struthers: Absolutely, rural economic development is a priority of this government, and we show it time and time again.

We show it time and time again, whether we talk about this particular approach to revamping RDCs in this province, whether we do it through the Rural Economic Development Initiative fund in–housed in the Department of Agriculture, whether we do it through the continuation and the support we give to Community Works Loans program, of which I know a number are found right in the member of Carman's own constituency, which are working to help people in rural Manitoba who have ideas, who need a little bit of help to get started and then provide employment and spin offs at our rural communities. So, Mr.

Speaker, we'll continue with that, I think, very progressive approach and show that kind of a support for people living in rural Manitoba. Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, this government is cutting funding to the regional development corporations by 10 percent effective immediately. They've discontinued the Community Profiles Web site. There's no consultations, no input from these groups. The minister seems intent on discouraging businesses from locating in rural Manitoba, yet, other provinces such as Alberta and Saskatchewan offer community profile Web sites because they want to attract businesses there.

Why would this NDP government cut services to rural Manitoba without any consultation? Without any input they've cut the services. Why is it that these decisions were announced after the Capturing Opportunities Conference in Brandon, a conference

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2619 that's supposed to be about promoting rural economic development? Mr. Struthers: Well, Mr. Speaker, I really appreciate the member bringing up Capturing Opportunities, where him and I had lunch together and we talked to people and saw people from rural Manitoba at that very luncheon who were putting forward good ideas, who were receiving funds from the provincial government to continue those good ideas on. Mr. Speaker, this isn't th e side of the House who, in the Carman Valley Leader , said they were going to turn their backs on rural Manitoba.

This isn't that side of the House I want to remind people across the way. We're not the side of the House that said we can't win elections on agriculture and rural depopulation. This isn't the side of the House that said we're not going to concentrate on health care. Those are all important to rural Manitoba. Where does he get off saying that? Child and Family Services Agencies Children's Advocate Report Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the government what had been done to ensure the safety of Kyle Earl who reportedly was in the care of Child and Family Services when he was killed.

I received an NDP brushoff. Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious matter. Four weeks ago the Children's Advocate report said that child welfare in Manitoba is in a state of chaos. In spite of the government's new safety approach, she said that the number of children dying in care isn't decreasing, case loads are too high and children are falling through the cracks. She spoke of agencies struggling to fulfil their mandates and of the challenge to work without resources and well trained staff. I ask the Premier: Why has this report been kept secret for a month?

Will the Premier authorize the release of this report to LAMC? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Consumer Affairs): Well, Mr. Speaker, the–there is–the Children's Advocate actually is on leave, but we certainly can talk about what outside people are discovering about Manitoba's child welfare system and the improvements that are under way. The Auditor General, in standing committee on March 24th, said that we've seen–she's been impressed with the amount of energy and the effort that has gone into the action on the recommendations. She said that there is real action and real improvement. Mr.

Speaker, the member raises a question about a death, and I spoke to the former foster parent of the teenager that died and it's most tragic. And I think the member should understand the–how devastating that is to former foster pa rents, and I regret that he would, in fact, blame a foster parent or a child welfare worker for that loss that is most tragic. It was a result of community violence and we have to do better. * (14:10) Mr. Gerrard: I don't blame the foster child. I don't blame the errants. I blame the government. The government was warned four weeks ago. Mr. Speaker: Order.

All questions and answers through the Chair, please, not directly at the individuals, through the Chair. The honourable member for River Heights has the floor. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the government was warned that child welfare is in a state of chaos, and they've kept the report secret. They should make it public. We need to know why Kyle Earl died. Did he die because caseloads are too high? Did he die because risk assessment wasn't done adequately to know the concern about past involvement with a gang?

Did Kyle Earl die because the past involvement with a gang wasn't adequately taken into account when developing the treatment and safety plan for him? Did he die because of the chaos in the child welfare system under this government? Manitobans deserve answers. Will the minister ensure that there is a quick report on the death of Kyle Earl so that we have some answers and we get some changes? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, first of all, we should be reminded that there are operational reviews taking place of child welfare agencies across Manitoba, and we're discovering that there are many shortcomings, historically, Mr.

Speaker, that go back, in fact, decades. And we've been very–we're really pleased to see the involvement of Indian and Northern Affairs now in those reviews, and we're cleaning up

2620 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 a lot of messes that have been in place for far too long. In terms of this tragedy, Mr. Speaker, it's important that the member opposite recall that this House just recently, as a result of the Changes for Children initiative, passed legislation that mandates the Children's Advocate to do a review of any deaths of children in foster care, and that is a good system to make sure that there's that kind of accountability and oversight. Food Banks Increase of Use Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, over the last 10 years we've seen a growing dependency on food banks in the province of Manitoba, in particular, in regards to children. We, in fact, have generations of kids that have been on food banks now. It has grown and that dependency continues to grow. My question for the government is: Does the government have any plan that would try to address that growing demand in terms of food banks in the province of Manitoba having to feed our children?

Has–is Manitoba now in a state in which food banks have become a part of an institution and without them children will not be fed, or does the government actually have a plan? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Consumer Affairs): Yes, we note that food bank use had been going down for two or three years and, unfortunately, as in the food bank report, it went up last year, as they say, due to the recession. B u t , M r .

S p e a k e r , w h a t w e h a v e t o d o a s a government is pursue the initiative that has been launched called the ALL Aboard poverty reduction strategy, which has just been bolstered in the last several days by the announcement of the Premier's Council, to make sure that we bring to bear approaches that also focus on graduation rates and our investments, including in the north and on reserve and education, because those outcomes are so important for lifelong well-being. And we note, Mr. Speaker, that our efforts over the last decade or so has resulted in a cutting in half of the child poverty rate.

We have to continue to build on that kind of improvement. Mining Industry Exploration Initiatives Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, let's talk a little bit about futuristic issues of our province. I was, a few months back, in Toronto attending the world's largest mining conference along with the hardworking Minister of Innovation, Energy and Mines (Mr. Chomiak), and that particular conference gave us an insight to see how wonderfully we are doing in northern Manitoba. Can this–Mr.

Speaker, coul d I ask the minister to elaborate, throw some lights on his leadership of this department for the futurist ic mineral exploration in Manitoba? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Innovation, Energy and Mines): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'm very pleased to be able to answer a question that talks about the economic development and growth of northern and rural Manitoba. You know, Mr. Speaker, under the mineral exploration program we've invested $19.5 million, and that's generated $182 million in company spending for exploration in Manitoba. We've introduced the Manitoba mineral tax credit.

Budget '09 lowered the mining tax from 18 to 17. We've extended a 15 percent tax rebate for tax for profits between 55 and 100 million. Mr. Speaker, Snow Lake and HudBay Minerals are moving forward on development of a new mine. The mineral assistance program, the prospectors' program, has been renewed for three years. And, Mr. Speaker, in the oil patch, in Manitoba's oil patch, hundreds and hundreds of people are working as a result of our record high number of oil explorations. That's all across Manitoba, helping rural and Manitoba grow for the entire province. Budget Projected Deficits Mrs.

Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Yesterday, Statistics Canada released data showing that in the first quarter of this year, Canada's GDP grew at an annualized rate of 6.1 percent. The economy is doing well, Mr. Speaker, so well that the Bank of Canada increased interest rates by a quarter point–by a quarter of a point this morning.

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2621 Will the Minister of Finance be revising the Province's financial projections in light of this positive news? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Finance): I'm very pleased that the economy of the country is improving, Mr. Speaker, just as Manitoba's economy is improving. Just as the Minister re sponsible for Mines just indicated, a number of investments are taking place and there is growth and stability in this province but there are still challenges.

And we hope to see continued growth and confidence in this province so that people will continue to make those investments and see our economy grow. But, with regard to the specifics of the question, Mr. Speaker, we made–when we were doing our budget, we did take into consideration that interest rates would be rising and those are accounted for in our budget. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Speaker, there's a rosy outlook for Canada. The question is: Is this Minister of Finance going to change her projections accordingly? Mr.

Speaker, early estimates show that Canada's budget deficit will be almost $7 billion less than originally anticipated. The final numbers won't be out until September but all signs are pointing to a smaller-than-anticipated deficit. Given the good economic news in Canada, will our Minister of Finance be announcing a smaller-than-anticipated deficit for 2009 and '10 when the final numbers are released this September? Ms. Wowchuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, indeed, in the last quarter of the year, there was some improvements to the economy. The things have turned around slightly.

We have come in–we are coming out of the recession and, as the member said, the final numbers will come out in September. And when those final numbers come out, we will release them for the member opposite. But I'm optimistic we will see some improvements. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Wendy Friesen Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): At this year's Altona Chamber of Commerce Awards banquet on May 13th, Wendy Friesen was recognized as the 2009 Volunteer of the Year. She volunteers for the love of it and the town of Altona is grateful for her efforts.

Wendy has a lengthy community services resume. She's been involved in the game of curling since 1970, and the Altona Curling Club has been the recipient of her time and en ergy for many years. She serves as a treasurer for the Altona Curling Club, updates the Web site and helps co-ordinate the monthly fish fry. Wendy hosts the Junior Ladies' Berth Bonspiel, the Diamond Ladies' Provincial Curling Championship, and the Mondetta Senior Ladies' Provincials. She's also co-chair of the Scotties Provincial Curling Championship, which was hosted by the Altona Curling Club in 2011.

Wendy has been employed at Golden West Broadcasting in Altona for 18 years and is presently accounting manager, so her roles in the community often mirror her financial talent. Most of her volunteering started as a treasurer. She enjoys being involved in many facets of community life, saying that she's always been that kind of a person, one who loves volunteering. Golden West Broadcasting encourages community outreach and she's grateful to them for providing her with the opportunity to devote to volunteer activity.

In addition to her work with the curling club, Wendy serves as a treasurer of the Altona United Church and, recently, the Altona Maroons senior hockey team. She has also volunteered for the Schwartz Heritage House. Wendy sits on the board of directors of the Broadcasters Association of Manitoba and the Manitoba branch of Canadian Women in Communications, which she co-chairs with her daughter. Wendy was humbled but honoured to receive the Volunteer of the Year award. Mr.

Speaker, I invite all members in the House to join me in thanking Wendy for her numerous contributions to our community and to congratulate her on her award. Thank you. * (14:20) St. Edward's School 100th Anniversary Hon. Flor Marcelino (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): St. Edward's School in my community recently marked its 100th anniversary, and I invite all members to celebrate this important milestone with them.

2622 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 The cornerstone of St. Ed ward's was laid in 1909 and, upon opening, the school offered instruction in grades 1 through 4, operating under the direction of the religious order Sisters of Our Lady of the Missions. With each succeeding year, attendance increased several-fold. Today the school has a considerable population of approximately 200 students from kindergarten through grade 6. Over the last 100 years, St. Edward's has made serving the immigrant population of Winnipeg its mission.

In its early days, until the 19–late 1970s, that included young immigrants of British, Scottish, Irish, Portuguese and Italian descent. Now the influx of immigrants from Asian and African countries is reflected in a changing student population, which also includes several students of European heritage. By welcoming children from such diverse backgrounds, St. Edward's fosters a culture of acceptance and celebration for people from all walks of life. The school is inherently connected to the St.

Edward's Roman Catholic Church, and religious teachings are woven throughout the regular curriculum to encourage spirituality. Academic, physical, social and emo tional growth are also emphasized, and the school is committed to providing a safe and stimulating environment for all types of learning. The dedicated teaching staff of St. Edward's, with school principal Linda Doyle at the helm, support students in their quest for affirmation and always teach respect for human dignity and for all of God's creations. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate St.

Edward's School for the last 100 years of providing outstanding education and spiritual development and wish them all the best on the next 100 years. Thank you. Harvest Sun Music Festival Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure to invite every member of this House to attend the fifth annual Harvest Sun Music Festival on August 15th and 16th in Kelwood, Manitoba. The Harvest Sun Festival is a unique event that uses music and the arts to supp ort and generate awareness in the agricultural community in Manitoba.

While farming is a major driver in Manitoba's economy, more and more people are unaware of agriculture's importance and the challenges that many farmers face. The Harvest Sun Festiv al is a fun opportunity for everyone to engage with Manitoba's farmers and agricultural producers and enjoy great Canadian music. I attended a promotional event for the festival on May 6th at the Grant Park Mall. From what I saw, this year's festival will be full of good quality music and delicious food grown and produced by Manitoba farmers.

This summer, for the second year, the festival will also be hosting a farmers' market where Manitoba producers can sell their wares for free. The market provides another opportunity for concertgoers to connect with the agricultural community that surrounds them. The festival will take place in Kelwood, a small town 48 kilometres north of Neepawa on PTH 5, and the weekend's activities are organized by the Kelwood Improvement Society.

I want to congratulate society members Nadia Kuhl, Alana Levandoski, Kathy Levandoski, Jaime Harrison, Tim Engbrecht, Lindsay Kearns and Rebecca Kemp for their hard work in putting together the festival. August 15th will be a busy day for the community of Kelwood and lots for visitors to do. The Kelwood Agricultural Fair will be taking place at the same time as the Harvest Sun Festival, and there will also be children's entertainment provided at the festival. I want to invite every Manitoban to head out to Kelwood on August 15th and 16th, enjoy the Harvest Sun Festival and Kelwood Agricultural Fair.

It will be a unique experience that combines outstanding musical talent with beautiful prairie setting. I'm excited to celebrate and support agriculture in Manitoba at the Harvest Sun Festival. Any visitor will surely see what small-town Manitoba has to offer. Thank you. Brandon University Northern Teacher Education Program Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I speak with pleasure about the Brandon University Northern Teacher Education Program–or BUNTEP– graduation ceremony my wife and I attended in The Pas on May the 22nd.

This important event united many northern communities in the celebration of the accomplishments of this year's graduates. The current format of the program is evolving as post-secondary education in northern Manitoba will be available from the full-fledged degree-granting University College of the North. The graduation ceremony took place at the Manitoba Métis Federation's Elks hall, with 18 of the

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2623 19 graduating students present. The hall was crowded with dignitaries and families and friends from many northern communities. Graduates were recognized for their hard work and determination, and I was moved to see them realize their achievements and potential. These proud graduates now hold both a Bachelor of General Studies and a Bachelor of Education, and dreams and opportunities are theirs to discover. Ther e is no doubt that these young graduates will excel in their future careers as teachers.

Hopefully, many of these northern teachers will stay in the north so that our students can benefit from their expertise. The proud graduates were Myrna Ducharme, Melvina Dysart and Jessica Richardson from Cranberry Portage; Glenda Constant, Harvey Richards, Robert Young and Alice Queskekapow from OCN; Jillian Goldstrand and Jared Hynes from The Pas; Amanda Link, Adriennne Petryk, Sarah Matzer, Jodee Gray, Lucie Frederick, Crystal McKay and Val Johnston from Flin Flon; Shauna Madarash from Denare Beach; Lynne Lambert from Moose Lake; and Lydia Sinclair from Grand Rapids.

A big thank-you to the graduates, parents, extended families, teachers, professors, organizers and friends. A particular thank-you for the hard work of the two BUNTEP co -ordinators: Tiffany Anderson, who started the program; and Dolores Samatte, who saw it to its conclusion. Thanks, Dolores, for being a fantastic master of ceremonies at the graduation. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Grandeur Avenue Walkway (Winkler) Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, Winkler is home to some of the most picturesque gardens in Manitoba, and now one garden, in particular, will be featured nationally.

The Grandeur Avenue walkway has been chosen as the cover for the 2011 Home Hardware calendar. This year Home Hardware decided to use the Communities in Bloom theme, and the Grandeur Avenue photo was chosen from the national Communities in Bloom data base. The Winkler Horticultural Society was thrilled to find out that Winkler would be part of the Home Hardware calendar. In 2007, Hilda Fehr took the photo which depicts the walkway's fountain surrounded by flowers in bloom.

Not only will the scenic photograph be seen at the front cover of the calendar, but it will also be featured as one of the monthly images inside the calendar. Promoting tourism is one of the goals of the Winkler Horticultural Society, and a feature in next year's calendar will certainly spread the word to Canadians of Winkler's beauty. Winkler has competed in the Communities in Bloom contest for several years and has consistently received a top score of five blooms.

More than 450,000 copies of the calendar are expected to be printed and distributed in over 1,000 Home Hardware stores throughout Canada beginning at the end of the year. Profits generated from the calendars will be donated to the SickKids Foundation. Yesterday, a group of volunteers with Meg Suderman in charge started planting flowers for the 2010 season. My wife, Irene, was one of the 60 volunteers who have started the process of planting over 50,000 flowers. Mr.

Speaker, it is a pleasure for the Winkler community to be recognized nationally for our picturesque landscape, and I would like to thank Hilda Fehr for her photo, as well as the Winkler Horticultural Society, Communities in Bloom and Home Hardware for ma king this recognition possible. This winter I would encourage all members of this Legislature to purchase a calendar in support of the SickKids Foundation and to catch a glimpse of one of Winkler's beautiful gardens. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on House business.

Hon. Bill Blaikie (Government House Leader): A couple of items, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I'd like to announce that pursuant to rule 31(8), I'm announcing that the private member's resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be one put forward by the honourable member for Southdale (Ms. Selby). The title of the resolution is Fertility Treatments. Mr. Speaker: Pursuant to rule 31(8), it's been announced that the private member's resolution to be

2624 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 considered next Tuesday will be the one that will be put forward by the honourable member for Southdale and the title of the resolution is Fertility Treatments. The honourable Government House Leader, on further House business. Mr. Blaikie: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the business of the House today will be continuation of second reading of bills, beginning with Bill 25 and proceeding to Bill 28, 30 and 36. Mr. Speaker: So the order of business for this afternoon will be dealing with second readings in this order.

We'll start off with Bill 25, then followed by 28, 30 and 36. * (14:30) SECOND READINGS Bill 25–The Manitoba Evidence Amendment Act (Scheduling of Criminal Organizations) Mr. Speaker: So right now I will call Bill 25, The Manitoba Evidence Amendment Act (Scheduling of Criminal Organizations). Hon. Andrew Swan (Min ister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Blaikie), that Bill 25, The Manitoba Evidence Amendment Act (Scheduling of Criminal Organizations); Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la preuve au Manitoba (établissement d ′une liste d ′organisations criminelles), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of the bill, and I table the message. Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of this bill, and the message has been tabled. Mr. Swan: Mr. Speaker, and I'm pleased to speak about Bill 25, which will introduce Canada's first statutory provisions to create a legislated

schedule of criminal organizations for the purpose of provincial proceedings. It follows through on our government's Throne Speech commitment to make it more difficult for criminal organizations to operate in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, Manitoba's been a leader in the past decade in calling on the federal government to ensure that the criminal law is strengthened and modernized to meet the challenges of gangs and organized crime. At the same time, we've recognized that Manitoba must do what it can within its constitutional jurisdiction to ensure a comprehensive response to gang crime.

Manitoba has led the national movement of provincial and territorial governments to enact statutes within our provincial constitutional authority to deal with the public safety threats posed by criminal organizations. The Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act, The Fortified Buildings Act and the use of provincial civil forfeiture legislation have diversified Manitoba's response to organized crime.

But Manitoba recognizes that the criminal law alone is not enough, that the activities of these groups impact matters of provincial jurisdiction and that provincial governments can and must act to protect the safety and security of communities and residents. Mr. Speaker, we also recognize there are steps which can be taken to improve the administration of justice in the province. Law enforcement and our Crown attorneys have told us of their frustration at the need to repeatedly ca ll evidence to prove that a particular group is, in fact, a criminal organization.

In certain instances it's akin to proving that rocks are hard or water is wet over and over and over again. Bill 25 would make Manitoba the first jurisdiction in Canada to create a process to fairly determine whether certain groups are criminal orgnizations and, if so, to place them on a

schedule so that it does not have to be proven again and again and again in a future proceedings under provincial law. When a group is placed on The Manitoba Evidence Act schedule, it will stand as conclusive proof that the group is a criminal organization for purposes of provincial law. I would like to highlight, Mr. Speaker, for honourable members, some of the key elements of this legislation. Bill 25 proposes a fair, independent and rigorous process for assessing whether a group is a criminal organization within the meaning of the bill.

A director within the Department of Justice will be appointed with the power to submit an application to place a group on the schedule, where he or she believes that it is advisable to do so. The director must first believe the group meets the Criminal Code definition of a criminal organization based on police information or evidence, or decisions, orders or findings of a federal, provincial or territorial court. Public notice of this application will be given so that members of the group that is the subject of an application can object if they wish, view a

summary

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2625 of the director's application and submit written objections. An independent panel comprised of at least three persons who are neither current government employees nor police officers will then review the director's application and any written objections submitted by members of the group. If the panel concludes that there are reasonable grounds to believe the group is a criminal organization, it will prepare a written report to the minister that will include all of the information it reviewed.

The minister will then have an opportunity to review the director's application, any written objections that were filed and the report of the panel. If the minister agrees that there are reas onable grounds to believe the group is a criminal organization, he or she may ask Cabinet to

schedule the group as a criminal organization. The final decision to add a group to the

schedule rests with the Cabinet. The bill also contains provisions to allow a group to apply to be removed from the

schedule and outlines the process for reviewing such a request. It also contains provisions fo r certificates for mistaken identity for a group that may happen to have the same name as a scheduled group. Further, it contains crucial provisions for protecting the release of information that, if made public, would identify an informant, reveal sensitive investigative techniques or disclose information that could jeopardize the safety of someone.

I want to stress to this House that this bill has a very targeted purpose, and that is to eliminate the need to prove over and over again in provincial proceedings that a particular group is a criminal organization. It will not create a registry of all gangs or of gang members, and it will not apply to prosecutions under federal laws, including the Criminal Code of Canada and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. Mr. Speaker, we're committed to keeping our communities safe and ensuring the effective administration of justice in this province.

This bill would build on the successful legislation that our government has already enacted to respond to the threats posed by organized crime. We will have an opportunity to discuss the bill in more detail at the committee stage, but I look forward to the support of this House to pass this important and groundbreaking bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to Bill 25, The Manitoba Evidence Amendment Act (Scheduling of Criminal Organizations).

I think–let me start by talking a little bit about the concerns which are valid and which exist with regard to organized crimes and gangs in Manitoba. We can't deny and we must acknowledge that there is a serious issue with organized crimes and gangs in Manitoba, and over the past decade under this government there have been a substantial number of gangs, in Winnipeg in particular, but elsewhere in Manitoba as well. Such gangs, of course, include the Hells Angels. It includes the Indian Posse, the Deuce, the Native Syndicate, the Manitoba Warriors and others. And certainly this is a concern.

It is a concern that the–not only are there more gangs, but there are significant numbers of guns on the street, and it is a major concern that in the last several years we have had very high rates of violent crime in Winnipeg. That's–in 2007, Winnipeg had the second highest violent crime rate among major cities and, in 2008, Manitoba had the highest overall homicide rate among all 10 provinces. Manitoba had the third highest proportion of gang-related murders in 2008.

Winnipeg had the highest homicide rate and the highest reported robberies out of the 10 largest cities in 2008, and Winnipeg tied with Montreal reporting the highest rate of officers per capita of the 10 largest cities. So these are occurring in spite of the fact that we have a very substantial contingent of police officers here, and we need to look for solutions, perhaps not just in police officers, but in other areas. And this government, of course, is looking at laws.

This government is not looking at how you can improve child and family services so that there are fewer kids who are getting into trouble in the first place and interested and wanting to get involved with gangs. So there is a valid problem here. That problem is due, in part, to the abject failure of this government to addressing conditions like poverty. We hear of the substantial increase in the number of Manitobans and Manitoba children who are having to use food banks.

Repeatedly, in this Legislature, we've brought forward legislation to have a real action plan to address poverty, but the NDP have rejected that. Time and time again, year after year, Manitoba ranks among the top few provinces in terms of the highest child poverty rate.

2626 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 And these problems, then, feed into the problems of gangs and the problems of criminal activity in this province, that there's been an extraordinary failure by the NDP government to address poverty issues, to look at ways in which child and family services can be improved so that we have less involvement, with children who are placed in care, with gangs and that we have less problems than we do at the moment with drugs and the selling of drugs and that relates to the criminal activities and gangs. Now, I want to talk for a moment about Bill 25. It basically allows Cabinet to make a list or

schedule of criminal organizations in Manitoba if the Cabinet has reasonable grounds to believe that the group is a criminal organization.

Section 68.2(1) provides that a

schedule can be established by regulation by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, which is, of course, the Cabinet. Once an entity has been placed on the schedule, then it is considered in law conclusive proof in an action or other legal proceeding that the entity is a criminal organization. * (14:40) The minister can place entities on the

schedule or the director can apply to have an entity added to the schedule. If the director applies to place an entity on the schedule, the director must give public notice, put the notice of application at least twice in newspapers throughout Manitoba and on their departmental Web site. After notice is publicized, an entity can file an objection at a location to be selected by the director to oppose being placed on the schedule. Both the objector and director must set out arguments explaining why the entity is or is not a criminal organization, which goes before a review panel.

The review panel must be non-government employees and not members of law enforcement and must have a chair. The review panel will review the material and advise the minister if there are reasonable grounds to believe an entity is a criminal organization. Everything the review panel does must remain confidential. There's also a gag clause, that the review panel cannot be compelled to give any evidence in court. There are no FIPPAs. There's a ban on FIPPAs under

section 68.16(1). A member of an entity can make a written request to the director to have their entity removed from the schedule, however. There is no appeal to the

schedule or judicial review, so once an entity is placed on the

schedule and denied a request to be removed, the decision is final and not subject to judicial review or appeal. The director can collect very personal information from law enforcement in order to make a request prior to applying to place an organization on a schedule. And then, once a group is on the schedule, it's conclusive proof in any proceeding that the group is a criminal organization. There are, in spite of the intention of this bill, which is to make it hard for gangs to exist in Manitoba, if there is any criminal activity within the gang, there are some significant problems with this legislation.

Simply, this bill is an attempt to bypass or usurp the court system, which looks at evidence and determines criminal guilt and innocence. Instead of having the normal judicial proceedings, instead of having a judge decide whether a criminal organization is a criminal organization, the Cabinet and the director will decide. If a minister places an organization, any organization, on the schedule, it's automatically a criminal organization for court proceedings and there's no further appeal process.

This is a concern because, quite frankly, the bill allows the minister to place any group on a list, and that group is automatically then a criminal organization before a court of law. And while it's vital to cut down on crime, particularly gang crime, the principles of fundamental justice that were established by our forefathers and upheld in our courts must not be bypassed. Nothing would prevent the minister from adding, for example, an anti-poverty group, a religious group, putting it on the

schedule and using that to obtain personal information on any member. This, you know, is–members may, you know, wonder why I raise the religious organizations but, quite frankly, I think we're all aware of issues over– in the past, where religious organizations, whether Christian or Islamic or other religions have got sidetracked into the wrong areas. And, while we hope and would expect that the minister would not be going in this direction, we must have a concern with the powers that the minister is being given under this legislation.

This legislation, indeed, could be challenged as the violation–as a violation of the Charter and rights of freedoms, which guarantees people with the right to freedom of association, and, second, with respect to proceedings in criminal matters,

section 11 of the

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2627 Charter provides each person that is charged with an offence with the right to be tried within a reasonable time; to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to the law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal; and the right not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations.

I think that the concern or one of the significant concerns here is when we look at the labelling of an organization–a gang as a criminal organization, that one of the potential problems here is that, although it may be a criminal organization, does that mean that every individual in that organization is a criminal? Although it may be labelled a criminal organization, does that mean that every act of that organization is a criminal act? There–we're all familiar with many circumstances where, you know, like a big box of apples, some are rotten and some are excellent.

And we're all familiar with organizations which may have done good works but had a few people which headed off in the wrong direction. We may have situations where people join an organization and get caught up in a situation where there are some criminal people in the organization and they themselves have not necessarily committed any acts, but they will certainly be labelled as cr iminals because they are a part of an organization which the minister has labelled as a criminal organization.

So we must be cautious here and careful at the minister trying to take over from the legitimate power of the courts and the judicial system as it has been built up over many years. And we must be careful here about the powers that are provided to the director in obtaining personal information. These are broad, broad powers, and, you know, there may be a temptation to use this. We all know about the McCarthy era in the United States where the Communist Party, the political party, was labelled as bad and the people associated with, in the McCarthy era, were tyrannized. An Honourable Member: Is there relevance here?

Mr. Gerrard: Absolutely, this is relevant because people in the McCarthy era were labelled as, you know, criminal, virtually. They were stigmatized; they were terrorized because there was an association, and one would hope that the minister would not, you know, pick on a political party, as happened in the United States, to accuse it of nefarious actions and accuse anybody who had been a member of that of nefarious activities. And we all know that there were many, many reputations and many people who were–received tremendous harm from what happened back in the United States in the McCarthy era.

One of the significant reasons why we should be cautious about this is that, in their drive to put in place this law to go after gangs, the government has failed to see that it's probably pretty easy for criminal organizations and gangs to bypass and get around this law. Nothing prevents a gang from changing its name and going by another name, and then they are not part of the organization which is on the schedule. [interjection] * (14:50) So, well, the member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) is pointing about right-wing organizations and political parties and I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest, the member for–MLA for Thompson and honourable minister. But the fact is that the

schedule is, in fact, only as good as the names which are on the schedule. And an organization can disband and change its name, and that is probably fairly easy for gangs and criminal organizations to do. And–so what would keep an organization which is on the schedule, as soon as it's put on the schedule, from changing their name, disbanding, re-association, reforming under a new name. And it would be quite likely, we suspect, that the minister's

schedule might end up being filled with old gang names that have been simply changed or replaced, and are changed and replaced faster than the minister can put the names on the schedule. And the minister, you know, as has happened in the past, the NDP would be the laughingstock of the gangs and they wouldn't have an effective strategy if, in fact, that happened. So the reality is that the minister should've, you know, used an approach in which he had a group of people, say, you know, if you were a gang member, how–in a gang, how would you get around this?

When we're dealing with software, one of the standard approaches in developing software is to have people go in and try and find the problems, try and figure out how to get around it, try to, you know, hack into it and cause problems with it. And so the minister really should have done a better job of going

2628 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 in and trying to, you know, put this idea together and propose that it's going to make a huge difference when, in fact, we may have organizations which, like chameleons, change their colours, change their name and escape from this issue of being labelled in his schedule. It provides, certainly, an opportunity for the minister and his government to go around and pat themselves on the back, talking about all the things that they're doing. But the real question is going to be: Does it take drugs off the street? Does it keep kids in school?

Does it keep kids out of gangs? And as we have seen all too frequently under this NDP government, children like Kyle Earl, apparently, who was killed, had been, whether it was talking to or loosely associated with, in some fashion, with other gang members. Would this have prevented him associating in that fashion? Would it have prevented him getting together with others? Would it have prevented him getting into trouble? No.

Probably what was need ed was much more and better improved alternatives: A school system which worked better, a much better recreational and other activities for people like Kyle Earl, in the area that he was living, protection. If he was taken into Child and Family Services, as has been reported, making sure that the risk assessment is done–is that a child who's had any association with a gang?

What are we going to do to make sure that that child stays safe, and knows and learns, in fact, there is a different way and there are other opportunities–and is protected, while a child like Kyle makes a transition from a very troubled life into one in which he has a real opportunity? And what the sad

part is that we have the Children's Advocate saying in her report that there is chaos in the system, that there isn't enough resources, that things are not being done well. And the government, sadly, has not been able to address these issues properly, and so what the government is doing is bringing forth this law to allow the government to label gangs and put them on a

schedule and criminalize them, and crim inalize, it would appear, any and all activities of the gangs. So we're sceptical of how effective this one is going to be and, I think, rightly so, and concerned about the nature of this bill, that, you know, it's got some pretty big loopholes, that it may not be effective.

And I want to talk for a moment about the fact that it's been well documented that children and young people with fetal alcohol spectrum disorders are at greater risk to join gangs because they often have trouble controlling their actions, they struggle to pay attention in school, have difficulty holding on to jobs. They're more prone to turn to drugs and alcohol and get in trouble with the law due to problems distinguishing right from wrong. Well, Mr.

Speaker, we know that this exists, the concern of people with FASD getting involved with gangs, but we also know that where you can identify a child with FASD early on, where you can have the caregivers for the child awar e, right from the start, that that child has FASD, and provide the kind of support and compassion and understanding, that that child with FASD has a very good chance of growing up and doing pretty well, and not getting involved in criminal activity.

But, instead of focussing on the early identification of children with FASD and making sure that we're much more effective at preventing it, this is a government which has done everything it can to make sure that alcoholic beverages are not labelled, in terms of the risk of FASD; everything it can to make sure that the normal actions that one might consider taking, in terms of making sure that we prevent this scourge that exists today and is a problem in contributing to gangs; that this government, instead of doing the prevention, is bringing in a law which is going to put gangs, and children with FASD who get into gangs, on schedules.

And the question here is there must be a better way in terms of identifying children with FASD and giving them a chance–and , indeed, there is. There must be a better way of preventing FASD. And, indeed, there is. But these are not things that this government is addressing. This government is saying, okay, we're going to put people and gang organizations on a schedule, and so that what we're going to do is to make a much higher probability that children with FASD, who may start with a learning issue, are going to get labelled as criminals in gangs instead of trying to get the treatment.

And we have already a problem with a lot of people in prisons in Manitoba at the moment. They're full to bursting. And so the question is, this will help to put more people in prison, but it won't do what is probably more important, and that is giving young people, adolescents who are at risk, alternatives and opportunities and an alternative pathway so that they can have a life and grow up and have an opportunity that we would wish them to have in which they

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2629 would be productive and contribute to society. And what this government wants to do is to put them on a

schedule and to criminalize them and to do this in a way that, probably, the leaders in the gangs will escape once again and you will lock up a lot of young people with FASD and criminalize them, instead of protecting them and making sure that they have opportunities. * (15:00) So, Mr. Speaker, we will wait and attend the committee hearings and what is said at the committee stage.

But we certainly have some very significant scepticism with regard to this bill which gives the minister very wide powers and the director wide powers, and I think, legitimately, we have some concerns not only with the approach that's being taken but with the fact that it likely can be bypassed or got around by those who are really hardened criminals, as opposed to those who are dragged in and young people who are, in fact, there because there wasn't the approach to address poverty. There wasn't the recreation. There wasn't the improvements in school that we should have and should have had. Thank you. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I, too, would like to share with members a number of thoughts and ideas that I have in regards to Bill 25. One of the areas, or issues, I enjoy talking a lot about and sharing with members is in regards to the whole issue of crime. Crime is a major issue in, ultimately, not only my constituency, Mr. Speaker, but, I believe, in the minds of many Manitobans, as something in which government needs to take more action on and more action.

And when we talk about more action, what we're talking about is in those areas that are very tangible where we know that there–a real difference can, in fact, be made. And I think that there is an expectation that the public has, an expectation that the government is doing what it can to protect the citizenry of the province and I think that, in many ways, there is a sense of a letdown because, quite often, when–whether you listen to a radio program or a television program, you read in the newspapers, it seems, every day, almost without exception, there's always something being reported on in regards to crime.

The media do tend to give a great deal of attention to the issue, and I suspect that's because there's a very high level of interest in it. There is a high–a very high level of interest, Mr. Speaker, from the public, and that's the reason why I feel that it is important that when we're provided the opportunity to provide some feedback, that we do just that. You know, the gang issue has really shaken the confidence of the public and understandably so. And, once again, we see that the government has recognized that there are a number of gangs and we need to do something.

The Leader of the Liberal Party made reference to, you know, a number of questions or concerns in regards to the bill, and, you know, I plan to highlight a couple of those as we go on, Mr. Speaker, but suffice to say that we need to be very much aware of the fact that the public in whole f e e l t h a t w e d o n e e d t o d o m o r e t o t r y t o m i n im i z e the negative impact that gangs are having in the city of Winnipeg. You know, it wasn't that long ago when we were talking a lot about gang initiations.

And one of the initiations that was being talked about a great deal was stealing cars, and it was almost like there was a quota of sorts that were given. If you wanted to be a member of a gang, you'd go and steal a car or two or three. You know, I remember one day talking to an individual in the constituency, and they were sharing with me the fact that they 're aware of someone that had stolen 30 cars. And, Mr. Speaker, you think, wow, that's a significant number of cars.

Well, that was in one year, one year a young adult or young–I shouldn't say young adult; he would have still been under the age of 18 from what I understand–stole 30 cars. I put in a request under freedom of information to get some more details about just how many of these individuals are stealing that sort of quantity of cars. And, Mr. Speaker, it–I was surprised. I can't recall the exact number offhand, but I believe you're talking somewhere in the neighbourhood of 150 youth that are stealing a great number of cars. And many of those youths are involved in some form or another in gangs and gang activities.

So, you know, when you start seeing the thousands of cars that were being stolen, it starts to touch everyone, everyone in the communities, in our communities, especially those in Winnipeg and other areas where there was a large number of cars being stolen. In fact, a few years ago in Winnipeg I believe there was 13,000 vehicles stolen. Mr. Speaker, that was, you know, a lot of vehicles that were being taken away and, you know, as I say, in many cases they were just used as a gang initiation.

2630 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 And then you started to see, well, it wasn't good enough just to steal the vehicles. Quite often they would put some heavy object on the gas pedal and allow the vehicle to be used as a weapon to plough into something, Mr. Speaker. Again, there were examples made in terms of gangs. You know, we need to really look at the costs to society that these gangs are causing, and what it is that we can actually do. I see what the Minister of Justice (Mr. Swan) is hoping to be able to do in this legislation. It's interesting.

I didn't anticipate that the government would be bringing in legislation of this nature because, as I say, there are a number of concerns that will surface, issues such as the Charter of Rights and other issues, Mr. Speaker. And it'll be interesting to see how the legislation ultimately evolves because there's no doubt in my mind that ultimately the bill will pass.

And, you know, we look forward to it going to the committee stage, just to get some sort of a sense or a perspective from the minister responsible as to filling in maybe a few of the gaps as to why it is that we were–why it is the government has brought forward this legislation, and what kind of background work he has actually done to ensure that it is sound legislation. Mr. Speaker, you know, the intent of the legislation is just to allow Cabinet to be able to say, well, this is a criminal gang. And now when I think of gangs, there's a number of them that come to mind.

You know, probably the best-known gang, and it's more of a national, even international, gang is the Hells Angels. And over the years there has been a great deal of media attention given to that particular gang. But there are other gangs; we have seen the Indian Posse, Deuce, Native Syndicate, Manitoba Warriors, and I suspect that there could even be more. I would've liked to have heard from the Minister of Justice because, at the end of the day, the Minister of Justice might have gangs already, you know, some of those organizations that he is thinking of putting on to the list.

And, you know, it would have been nice to have heard from the minister as to, well, what are the gangs that he has in mind? * (15:10) You know, I provided a list, or I read into the record a list of gangs th at I'm aware of. To what degree they're active, hard to say. You know, outside of a great deal of graffiti that we see and comments, you know, at the constituen cy level, there seems to be a great deal of activity within our communities that is–negative activity–that is related to what gangs, in particular, young people are doing. And, you know, one of the things that we need to recognize, Mr.

Speaker, is that, quite often, it's the older adults or young adults, in their drive to keep their gang active and full of life and new memberships, they often reach out to younger people, and they offer a different type of lifestyle. You know, I made reference to a specific example within my constituency just the other day, and, Mr. Speaker, you know, again, yesterday, I was back at my office, and members might recall of an incident that had occurred. And, you know, let me just provide a bit of an update and one would say, well, how is it related?

It would be related in the sense that there is very high suspicion that these particular youth want to be a part of a gang, and what impact will legislation of this nature have on that? And this is what people really want to hear, Mr. Speaker. What is the government doing to protect our communities? And the best way to explain that is to provide a very clear example. And yesterday, as I say, I had an update myself when I was over at a store, a sit-down discussion that ultimately followed up an incident that had occurred the previous night, you know. [interjection] Oh. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I don't want to, you know, get off topic. But, you know, at the end of the day, the purpose of that discussion that I had at that particular time was just to get a better sense as to what was happening with this particular incident that had occurred two nights ago. Mr. Speaker, you'll recall I mentioned that there was a few kids that were around a building. One–at least one of them was up a–on top of the roof and– [interjection] Yeah. And what happened is the landlord of the building eventually got there, and there was at least the one that was still there, and he was wanting to come down.

And we believe he was somewhere around 10 years old. One might have taken off, but there were another two that stayed around, and they were just, like, yards away from where the little boy was coming down. When the little boy, ultimately, got to the bottom–and prior to getting to the bottom, he was yelling and screaming and indicating that he was going to cut and cause blood to spill and all this kind of stuff. He gets down and the landlord grabs him, and the boy is shocked by being grabbed. And, ultimately, I guess, dropped his weapon and it was

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2631 scissors, Mr. Speaker. [interjection] No, no, no. This is the night before. This is the night before. So, anyway, the scissors dropped, and they dropped and the plastic was cut off or whatever. You know, the handles were, for the scissors. So it was actually quite the weapon that was actually, I suspect, just–you know, here is a 10-year-old kid just walking around with scissors , using those scissors as an actual weapon, Mr. Speaker, and in and around 10 years old. That was what was estimated.

So, anyway, he's holding this and the other two kids are yelling at him. One has a board, and he's waving the board and saying, again, life-threatening situations to the landlord. Someone close to the landlord suggested–you know, the boy starts to cry, and the person says, well, just let him go. It's not like the police are going to get here to be able to do anything. How long would he have to hold the child? So he ended up–once he let him go, he took off, but the scissors were left, and I have a copy of those scissors, Mr. Speaker. Well, in those–and, as I say, the boys just took off across the field.

Having said that–and I talked about that yesterday–here's the update, Mr. Speaker. Individuals that were familiar with what took place, that witnessed what had taken place, now see these young individuals and–again, I'll emphasize, when we talk about, you know, relevancy, because it is important for people to really understand why it is I'm giving this example. You know, these are kids that are quite often behaving in this sort of a fashion in order to impress upon others that they would be good gang members because they can do some pretty terrible things and they're not scared of anyone. And, Mr.

Speaker, when we look at this particular bill, will this bill assist in dealing with the problem? Well, let's–here's what actually takes place. You know, we have a group of two or three kids, one branding a knife of sorts this time, virtually across the street, looking in, giving suggestions that they are going to get someone there. And it is fairly intimidating because, as the one person put to me, well, what can they actually do? What can they do as–in this particular case it's an owner of a store, not necessarily the landlord, even though the landlord was once again called in to discuss the issue.

What is–what can actually be done in order to prevent? You have to take these threats seriously, Mr. Speaker, because quite often you don't know what sort of medical condition or a mental condition some of these youth could be in. You know, the Leader of the Liberal Party made re ference to fetal alcohol syndrome. You know, there are some kids that do not realize–they genuinel y do not realize the consequence of some of th eir actions, and they feel that they can just go ahead and do whatever it is that they want as if they have a right to do that. Well, what gets done?

What–you know, what do you tell people like that? You know, I had indicated that, you know, you try to–remember, you can call the community police. You let the community police office know about it. Sometimes it might be difficult to track the actual individual without putting yourself in any sort of risk if the opportunity is there to get a picture that you can then provide, whether it's to the community police or the local Child and Family Services outlet, that you could possibly do something of that nature. Mr.

Speaker, these–you know, we–the feeling is that there is nothing that is actually being done by government in order to protect their interests. Now, these kids then will go back into some form of an educational environment. I trust that they're likely going to one of the community schools, and, you know, they'll walk around and they'll be boastful. It's almost like, you know, it's–they say, well, this is the law, but the law doesn't apply to them, and the reason why the law doesn't apply to them is because there is no consequence for whatever they do. And, Mr.

Speaker, we had a very significant incident that had occurred that reinforced that in a certain area where it was a local shop owner that actually got stabbed. And the one offender–there was two, I believe it was 14 and 10–the one, I believe, I'm told, is in custody. The other one, I believe, is in some form of a curfew, in-home curfew. But, you know, there is, generally, from a lot of young people a feeling that they are untouchable, that there is nothing that government or police or CFS can do, that they can do whatever it is that they want, Mr. Speaker.

And I be lieve at the end of the day that there has to be, there needs to be a role for the government. * (15:20) You know, we have the authority to be able to do things in which parents cannot do. Did you know that, as a parent, you do not have the right to lock your child into a room? You can't do that. Only the government has that authority. The government can

2632 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 actually lock a person up, and an example of that would be Marymound. And, again, I'll bring it right back to an example that's specifically related to this bill, because what we're talking about is gangs and identifying gangs and some of the activities that they do–conduct in our communities. You know, there's allegations of–and this is someone that lives just outside of my constituency, where the individual is a foster parent, raised a young lady for many, many years.

And that young lady was being pulled out of her environment from bad kids that have a very negative or poor influence on her. And the foster parent was wanting to keep the child home because what was happening is she was sneaking out the window at nighttime. And the parents were told that you do not have the right; you cannot do that to a child. And, now, she would have been–now, again, I'm not 100 percent sure of the age, but right around that 12 years old. And it was through that process that I understood exactly what it is that the government could do.

And in this particular situation, after the third time, this individual was put into Marymound centre, and in Marymound centre they have a number of beds in which they can actually put a child into lockup. Well, Mr. Speaker, because of the system failing this particular young girl, she was affiliated with individuals that are affiliated with gangs and she ended up going into prostitution. This is a young girl at 12 years old, 13 years old. I've known the girl. If I–and you know what? I think this happened a couple of years ago.

It was just a few months ago where I actually saw this young girl at a local Tim Hortons. And, you know, here you have an individual that's been taken out of a loving environment and, ultimately, through the advocacy of that foster parent and individuals at Marymound–and I compliment the people in Marymound. They have a tough, tough job and limited resources. And what's really sad is that, you know, here's a child that fell through the system and the system failed her.

And, as a result, you know, drugs, gangs, prostitution, that's–that was–that became a part of her life because society failed her, or government and its agencies failed her. Mr. Speaker, if you want to start dealing with issues like the gang problems, you need to do more than just identify the gangs and put them on a list. You know, what I would like to see is Cabinet take more of a stronger approach at dealing with some of those causes.

You know, I've talked–and I don't know if the current minister has had a tour of Marymound, and if he hasn't had a tour of Marymound, I would suggest that he take a tour of Marymound. And what he'll find is that there are a lot of stories in that centre and there's a lot of young ladies that need help. And, sadly, far too often what happens is is that we will take a young person out of an unhealthy environment. Because of a social condition, we'll take that person out of that environment, and then we will put them into Marymound centre, and–quite frankly, that is a good thing.

You know, you take someone that's–when they wake up in the morning and they open their windows and they see people that are selling coke, they see people that are prostituting, they see crime day in and day out– So you take that 13-year-old individual out of that environment and then you put them into Marymound. And, in Marymound, quite often, they might even come from a dysfunctional family, but once they get to Marymound, they actually start to experience that there are people that can demonstrate love and kindness and that are concerned about that particular individual and the future of that individual.

They're concerned about the condition of that individual. They try to re-establish dignity into the individual, that there is an alternative to the life that they had when they were on the Selkirk avenues or the Pritchard's or many other streets in Winnipeg where there's a higher conc entration of what I would classify as the negative forces in society, Mr. Speaker. But then here's what ultimately will happen.

That individual will be in Marymound centre, but because of limitations that Marymound has, the individual, ultimately, when they start to get back onto the right track, they're put right back into the environment, quite often, in which they were pulled out of. Well, Mr. Speaker, what do you think's going to happen? You know, what kind of break have you really given when you finally start to see some light and you start to plant a few seeds of hope inside that individual's mind and their attitudes and, all of a sudden, because of budge ts and resources, the individual is put back into that same environment?

I've had couple tours of Marymound and years ago I had one tour in particular where one of the workers introduced me to a young lady. And she said to me, you know, and using my name, that little so and so, or young so and so, or whatever the person's

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2633 name was, you know, is really good today. She hasn't hit anyone. And this is like at 11 o'clock in the morning. And after talking with her, we went out into a different room and I said, you know, it's rather strange you say that she hasn't hit anyone. And she says, well, she comes from an environment where hitting was very commonplace and she would have no problem in terms of hitting people. And that's the reason why she had to be put in isolation so much, but we give her credit when she is not and she's having a good day.

And she hadn't hit anyone since whatever time she had woken up. I think it was seven o'clock because they had her get up earlier, Mr. Speaker. And I think that–you see, we're not aware of the conditioning that takes place in many of those environments, Mr. Speaker, because we choose in part–and in other ways we don't have that same opportunity to understand what's taking place in many of these communities that need our help, that need the government resources, that need more than the type of legislation that the minister is bringing forward today. They need social programming.

I would suggest that we could virtually quadruple–as I look at my leader, hopefully, he'll be comfortable in me making the suggestion, you know, that we should be looking at quadrupling the funding for organizations like Marymound, because by doing that, you're going to prevent individuals from getting involved in gangs. Quite often, you'll be taking people out of the gangs and you'll be able to keep them out of the gangs, Mr. Speaker, and that should be a major part of what we're doing inside this Legislature. That's what we should be–that's what we need to be looking at.

And this is why, you know, when we look at the legislation–and the leader made reference to, you know, that there are concerns. You know there are some concerns like, we wonder in terms of did the minister actually do some consulting with individuals, let's say, like Bryan Schwartz from the University of Manitoba, constitutional lawyer? There will be concerns regarding the Charter.

And, you know–I know, ultimately, we have the notwithstanding clause, so we can do ultimately whatever it is that we would like to be able to do in terms of passage of laws, but I don't think you want to have to resort–I think we have to respect individual rights and freedoms, but it would've been interesting to know if the Minister of Justice (Mr. Swan) did do some consultation with some of those experts, Mr. Speaker. * (15:30) And I'm not just talking in terms of the lawyers. We have many professional civil servants from within, Mr.

Speaker, that could provide the advice that the minister needs and–I shouldn't say the minister needs. In fact, this entire Chamber needs. We are very dependent on the level of expertise that our civil servants have and, ultimately, I truly believe that we have one of the finest groupings of civil servants in the world. And they, in most part, when left to do what it is that they're supposed to do, will do a second-to-no-other job at meeting the needs of this Legislature and, more importantly, the needs of the–of our public, of all Manitobans.

And I would trust that the Minister of Justice did do some consulting not only outside with the different stakeholders, but also had some consultation done within the department. You know, the last thing the public wants to see is to see a government that just wants to give that impression that they're doing–trying to do something. You know, yesterday, I made reference to–and I think it was during Bill 14. We were talking about gang activities because of the forfeiture of personal property, and that was one initiative, and then we had the armour and fortified vehicles, Mr. Speaker.

And, you know, I appreciate the fact that the Minister of Justice today is not quite as animated in his seat. He is actually listening, and I appreciate– [interjection] Already out of time? Maybe if I could have leave, Mr. Speaker, just to conclude my remarks. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to conclude his remarks? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No? I heard a no. An Honourable Member: Okay. Mr. Speaker: Okay. So we will now–the honourable member for Pembina. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I was going to adjourn debate. Mr. Speaker: Go ahead.

2634 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 Mr. Dyck: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Springfield (M r. Schuler), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. Bill 28–The Drivers and Vehicles Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: I'm going to call Bill 28, The Drivers and Vehicles Amendment Act. Hon. Andrew Swan (Min ister of Justice and Attorney General): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Local Government (Mr. Lemieux), that Bill 28, The Drivers and Vehicles Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les conducteurs et les véhicules, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Swan: Mr. Speaker, and I am pleased to be able to rise and speak about this bill. This bill will now allow for the full disclosure of names and administrative actions taken by the Registrar of Motor Vehicles with Manitoba Public Insurance. This bill will provide consumers with an additional tool to use when making a decision about dealing with a particular service provider or permit holder.

Those businesses and individuals affected by this bill will be vehicle dealers and salespeople, driver training schools and instructors, vehicle and parts recyclers, inspection station operators and qualified mechanics. All of these service providers require permits to operate in Manitoba under The Drivers and Vehicles Act and its regulations. This bill, Mr. Speaker, will provide transparency and consumer protection. Permit holders who receive administrative sanctions would now be posted on the MPI Web site, along with their business address and general statement regarding the infraction.

The length of time these names and business addresses will be publicly posted will vary from one year to permanent. The length of time will depend on the sanction issued. One example of consumer protection as the result of this bill would be those Manitobans wanting to get a vehicle safety inspection. With the passing of this bill, consumers will be able to visit the MPI Web site and check to confirm that a particular inspection garage is clean of administrative sanctions or, conversely, what sanctions they may have. The consumer can then make an informed decision on the inspection garage.

This bill will offer full disclosure and assist consumers in making their decision. Administrative and enforcement actions typically result from information gathered through an audit or inspection of a permit holder's operations by MPI staff or through information obtained from consumer complaints. Sanctions are usually the last resort after a number of progressive actions are taken. Last year, Mr. Speaker, 42 show-cause hearings were held against inspection stations and dealers, resulting in sanctions ranging from a one-month suspension to permanent loss of permit.

Some of the actions that will result in sanctions are if the permit holder has engaged in dishonest activity or in conduct that affords reasonable grounds to believe that the applicant or permit holder will not act according to law and with integrity and honesty, if the permit holder has failed to meet qualifications or to satisfy requirements of the regulations, if the permit holder has made any material misstatement or failed to disclose information required in the application for the permit or breached a condition of a permit that has already been issued.

This bill was prepared in consultation with and has the full support of a number of stakeholders within the automotive industry: the Manitoba Motor Dealers Association, the Manitoba Used Car Dealers Association and the Auto Recyclers of Manitoba. We look forward to this consumer protection bill being passed by this Legislature. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to put a few comments on the record on Bill 28, The Drivers and Vehicles Amendment Act.

This bill is designed to allow the posting of information about permit suspensions, cancellations, renewal refusals for auto dealers, salespersons, driver training schools, driver instructors, automobile recyclers, inspection station operators and qualified mechanics. I have three particular areas of concern with this bill that I want to raise. First, this is a typical NDP bill. It has a very, very solely negative view of people.

This bill should have been put forward in a way that allows the publication and the posting of positive things about the people who are–driver training schools, driver instructor permits, dealers, salespersons, recyclers, in spection station operators, qualified mechanics and so on. This should not be restricted just to negative things or where there's problems. If a driving school has won major awards, if a driving school has been able to graduate large numbers of graduates versus a small number of graduates, you want to know what kind of history the

June 1, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2635 drivers school has got. They've been in business for 30 years. That says something, as opposed to somebody who's just been in business for three months. If you've got a drivers' training school which has won awards, a driver training school which has very low rates for their acci dents for graduates, data which could be obtained through MPIC in Manitoba. So we should be able to know the positive things and not just the negative things about the driver training schools and about the driver instructors.

There would be for driving instructors a history of the students, the training background, the education of the instructors. Where was the instructor trained? What kind of a degree or diploma did the instructor have? Has the instructor r eceived awards of merits for the excellent ability that the driving instructor has? Same thing for an inspection station operators, automobile recyclers and so on. We should have published–and I would hope that the government would amend this so that the positive attributes of the organizations and the people can be published as well as the negative attributes.

It is–we should have a, you know, a real picture, not just the typical NDP negative picture of what's happening in this province. And let's hear some positive things as well as the negative things. So I think that that's one of the changes which would be important to incorporate into this bill in amendments. * (15:40) The second area where I have a significant concern has to do with the bill should replace a clear onus on the registrar to remove information that they publicized if it's a negative attribute, a suspension or what have you, once the matter's been resolved or remedied.

You know, licence suspensions aren't forever, if there is a failure or a problem there should be an ability to be able to correct that to overcome it and have erroneous information removed. This could, for example, it might be that–let me give you an example, you've got a driving instructor who–or a salesperson who works fo r a dealership, and the salesperson's name and address, the business address, is publicized and that gives the car dealership a bad name because one of their salesperson at that business address is publicized.

And suppose that salesperson then moves and works for another company, you know, you want to be able to make sure that the information can be updated, can be timely, and that information which is erroneous or wrong can be removed readily so that people or businesses don't get stigmatized or hurt because old information is there or because information is not removed in a timely and appropriate fashion. So the bill should have very clearly spelled out the onus on the registrar to remove information once the matter has been resolved and remedied and make sure that that is indeed done and is looked after.

A large dealership's reputation could be dragged through the mud publicly due to a mistake, a suspension or a failure to renew by an employee. And the bill needs to have the provisions in there for the registrar to remedy or change this if–for instance, if an employee quits employment or is fired or if they're returned to good standing.

So that the–if this is, you know, not done appropriately and it should be part of the act you can foresee situations where the registrar might be opened to accusation of libel or other problems if they publish information which in some fashion defames or casts a negative cloud over a dealership. The reputation of an individual is very important and, you know, once an individual's reputation is affected then it's much harder to change that or reverse that.

So it needs to be handled in a way so that there is a very clear onus on the registrar to make sure the information is not only timely, but information which is placed there can be removed when a matter is resolved or remedied or changed. Thirdly, the bill needs to be clearer in terms of how the registrar is to make information public. Many other bills provide specific information about how it's to be made public, whether it is on the Internet or in the paper, and at least then, you know, people can know exactly where to go for the information.

Not everyone, of course, in Manitoba may have Internet access, but it needs to be that there is a clear indication of where the information is to be found so that it can be–people can find it easily and come to their own decision or conclusion when they are choosing driver training school, choosing a driver instructor, choosing an inspection station, operators permit or operator or a qua lified mechanic.

Qualified mechanics, those who are r eally good mechanics, if you've got somebody who is outstanding but there is a little mistake on something, then all of a sudden you can get a picture which is, you know, overly negative in terms of the overall capabilities and qualifications of a mechanic. I'm not saying that we need to go to something like rate your doctor, but we need to go to something which at least has the balan ce and that there is–if the government is going to be involved and the registrar is going to be involved in publicizing material like

2636 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2010 this, that we should have the positive material as well as the negative material and not just have a one-sided view. With those few comments, I'm going to let my colleague, the MLA for Inkster, comment. Thank you. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I, too, would like to put a number of thoughts on the record in regards to Bill 28. It's a bill in which I suspect that there is general support [inaudible] ultimately like to see the bill–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Is your mike on? Mr. Lamoureux: Hello? Okay. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I don't know if I should repeat everything I just finished saying. Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, you know, it was in anticipation of being able to speak on the bill today, I suspect, that–and, generally speaking, there are some concerns that we have within–with regards to the bill. But we do, ultimately, want to see it go to committee to see what type of response that we get from the public.

I am sure that there is some interested stakeholders that would like to, maybe, hear a little bit more from the government as to what it is that they're hoping to be able to ultimately accomplish by doing this bill and the reason why it's come before us today. You know, in dealing with dealerships and other entities in which this bill is attempting to do–to deal with, I think that it's worthwhile in terms of recognizing that in terms of needs–and the people that I have talked to have, no doubt, some concerns in regards to this.

But I can tell the government that the primary concern is more of a consumer-oriented type of protection. Now, it's not to say that the public would not support this particular bill , but consumer protection– this bill does do some of that by making things public. But, you know, in the last, well, I would say the last four or five weeks, I've had at least three, maybe even four cases that I can think of offhand, Mr. Speaker, that dealt with the consumer side of automobile purchases.

And here we're talking about permits, and I suspect that if they were looking to try to, you know, deal with some of the issues that people are having in regards to the automobile industry in particular, if they had a choice, they'd probably want to see more on the consumer protection as opposed to legislation of this nature or, at the very least, maybe even do them simultaneously, Mr. Speaker, because consumer protection, I think, is critically important.

And I look at this particular legislation and, yeah, there–it does do some things that, ultimately, could have an impact, and there's no reason why if not–if amended appropriately, that this bill couldn't receive the support of all members of this Chamber. You know, we'll look to the minister to see if, in fact, once we get into the committee stage, whether or not he'll be in a position to actually put forward some of those possible amendments, Mr. Speaker.

And, failing that, maybe we might see something in the report stage, because I do believe that there are some things that could be done in order to make this piece of legislation a better law. And I hope that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Swan) has an open mind to making some changes to the legislation. * (15:50) I know at times we have seen changes that have been made in committee st

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-4-54b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 4th hansardpdf 54b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	16f19d73f38c6f905918625ec7600752c08695f0

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