May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2447 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Thursday, May 23, 1974 8:00 p.m. [Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair at 8:00 o'clock.] [Mr. Speaker left the Chair.] head: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY [Mr. Diachuk in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee of Supply will come to order.

Executive Council (Cont.) Northern Development Agreed to: Appropriation 1418 Minister's office $76,000 Appropriation 1419 Northern Development Group $375,000 Appropriation 1420 Indian-Metis Liaison $1,428,000 Appropriation 1440 Alberta Disaster Services agreed to: $809,536 Appropriation 1441 Emergency Contingency Fund agreed to: $20,000 Appropriation 1446 Bureau of Public Affairs MR. CLARK: We won't agree quite as quickly on this one. We would like whichever minister is responsible - do you want to wait until the minister arrives?

Can we have an explanation of what is going to happen as a result of the one-quarter increase in the Bureau of Public Affairs appropriation this year?

2448 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Getty will be back in just a moment. [May we deal with] Appropriations 1460, Human Resource Research, and 1470, Alberta Education Communications Corporation? The rest are Mr. Getty's. He will be back momentarily. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Appropriation 1460 Human Resource Research MR. CLARK: On Appropriation 1460, can the minister give us some indication in general terms of the reports that were undertaken in this vote last year? Secondly, would you comment on the question of making these reports public?

I think if we recall last year during the Estimates we dealt with this matter. The minister indicated at that time, if my recollection is correct, that most of the reports would be made available. I'd like to ask the minister: is she in a position at this time to indicate to us that all the research undertaken under Appropriation 1460 will, in fact, be made available? MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm unable to give that commitment because most of those reports are done more or less on a contract basis with four other departments and other ministers.

Some of them I know have been made public, some from the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and some from what was then the Attorney General's department. There have been a good number done for the Department of Advanced Education. I'm not sure whether those have been made public or not. Most of these studies will be listed in detail on a return which is being compiled now, Return No. 150. As well, we tabled in the House those that were completed last year as an answer to another return.

Whether or not these will be tabled, I think would have to be directed to the minister who requisitioned these studies. MR. CLARK: I would follow that by asking the minister, when may we expect that return? It would be much easier to deal with the estimates if we could have that return. Is the return almost ready? MISS HUNLEY: I'm not responsible for compiling Return No. 150. I believe it is almost ready because I'm using information from it to answer another return for which I am responsible. I would expect that that will be tabled before long. MR. GETTY: Mr.

Chairman, the Office of Program Co-ordination is presently compiling the return. It's going through the final stages of checking. It probably will be tabled in the House tommorrow, but at the latest on Monday. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, would you then be agreeable, since we've made such progress in five minutes, to hold Appropriation 1460 until we have that return? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's agreed then that 1460 is held. We'll go back to 1446, Bureau of Public Affairs.

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2449 Appropriation 1446 Bureau of Public Affairs (Cont.) MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, first of all we would like to ask the minister if he could explain to us what is going to be done with that 27.9 per cent increase in the Bureau of Public Affairs this year? MR. GETTY: Mr. Chairman, the main reasons for the increase in the Bureau of Public Affairs are in two areas: one, the bringing into operation of the Alberta Information Service, which is an effort to meet the problem many citizens have of getting to the right government department when they phone the government.

We have - first on an experimental basis and then finding that it was successful - phased in a program which will provide in every government building in the cities and towns outside of Edmonton a switchboard where, when citizens call in seeking information on government programs they will be handled by a trained operator who will be able to provide, on a relative standard basis, answers to a more or less standard series of questions which are most frequently asked.

If a question requires further direction to Edmonton then the operator will stay with the caller at no cost until they locate the person in Edmonton and have the information they require. The Alberta Information Service is going to be something quite welcome in the minds of our citizens because members will recognize that quite often when you call a government you end up getting the wrong person who passes you off to someone else who may not then be the [right] person. A series of phone calls quite often leaves a citizen frustrated and saying, well, I'll do without, I've tried and failed.

We're trying to meet that with the Alberta Information Service. It is being phased in, as I said, over the full year. We are having an increase in activity in a number of conventions in the province in which the government supplies hospitality grants and we are having some increase in government advertising. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, can the minister elaborate just a bit further on the last area he indicated: some increase in government advertising. MR. GETTY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the departments under the present set-up, as requested by the Provincial Treasurer, carry within their own votes their advertising budgets. However, they have moved their information offices to the Bureau of Public Affairs. They have been centralized within the Bureau of Public Affairs, and we have an increased amount of activity in the area of government advertising and increased costs of doing the actual advertising. MR. CLARK: Is the minister in a position to give us some fairly detailed information on any new government advertising programs this year? MR.

GETTY: It's very difficult to do that through the Bureau of Public Affairs, Mr. Chairman. They have, in fact, been in each department. I think in my last check about $4 million is in each government department. I would urge the member, as each department's estimates are considered by the House, to check with the minister responsible as to the details of their advertising budget. But it's about $4 million.

The advertising dollars that are carried in the Bureau of Public Affairs, and read approximately $331,000, are those things that might be considered more or less corporate advertising - not having to do with any particular department - or else there are some funds which are appropriated on a contingency basis in the event that something unforeseen may require advertising during the year. MR. CLARK: I conclude from the minister’s remarks then that $4 million would be the total advertising budget in general terms for all government departments. Is that right? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Chairman, that is a general ballpark figure of government departments and it would not include government Crown corporations, boards or agencies.

2450 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 MR. CLARK: Is the advertising done by boards and agencies also centralized within the Bureau of Public Affairs, for example, Alberta Government Telephones and other agencies like that? MR. GETTY: I can’t be completely general on that matter, Mr. Chairman, because it's the option of the board, agency or Crown corporation, whether they wish to or not. MR. CLARK: So there’s no pressure brought to bear by either the bureau or the minister, saying to various government agencies that they must use the services of the Bureau of Public Affairs? It's a choice of their own?

Then, a second area. Could the minister indicate how many centres he sees this Alberta Information Service operating from? I relate that to the fact that there is close to a 100 per cent increase in the staff. From what the minister has said, I assume that is where the large portion of this increased staff will be. So how many centres are we going to have this Alberta Information Service operating from? MR. GETTY: There will be a total of 36, Mr. Chairman, all of which should be government offices outside the city of Edmonton. MR. LUDWIG: Mr.

Chairman, when I hear a few of the remarks made by the hon. minister to the effect that the advertising budget in this department is only a small fraction of the total advertising budget, I can't help but comment on the fact that the hon. minister states this is to provide information so people will know where to get in touch with the right people, with the right department. I'm saying that is hollow comfort to a lot of people who know who to get in touch with but can't get a response.

You get on the waiting list of a minister, sometimes they don't want to deal - when the government advertises that if you have a problem the minister wants to hear you, that's fair ball. But the minister is so far behind in his responses that it's futile for somebody to wait who needs an answer immediately. You can't blame a disgruntled citizen for not going through the chain of command starting with tail-end Charlie as it were. He wants to go to the top when he is disgruntled, but he can't get a response.

So the government is advertising, setting up coordination, so people don't reach a dead end when they phone somebody initially. But they reach a dead end eventually, and I'm saying that isn't good enough. They get to the right source, but can’t get any response. They may as well have been told in the beginning that the minister can't take any calls for two weeks, and that's the end of it. That causes a lot of 'disgruntlement'. That probably creates more dissatisfaction with government not responding than a lot of the good things the government does.

I'm saying, when I look at the advertising bureau and the publicity bureau as a whole, there is a tremendous increase in spending to feed government information. And that isn't all that bad, but the public wants to ask questions. They don't want to be force-fed with what the government wants them to know. That has happened in Europe. We had some top propagandists during the war who will always be remembered as having had an agency to brainwash people, and doing it very successfully. The people want to know through their representatives [answers to] questions that the government isn't volunteering.

That is the problem. There is no shortage of volunteer information. It can hardly be absorbed. The interest and the image of this or that person is not as important to the average person as perhaps the minister himself might think. So the emphasize on lavish advertising, brochures and reports by the ton is coming from all sides. Even a person who is interested in the affairs of the government could not possibly go through all that stuff. He has to select whatever is most important because it accumulates and he has to throw the stuff out.

The government is flooding, pushing its own propaganda and telling the people what a good job it does. If the government does a good job, for instance in tax reduction, the public is well aware of it. You don’t have to keep pumping information by huge, expensive advertising literature to the citizen to tell him we've given him a tax break, we've given him some of his own money back. That may be good. It may be good propaganda.

It may appear to be the popular thing to do, but in the long run if you add up this kind of spending through the years then certainly there is a better way to do good than to try to force-feed. I use the word "force-feed" advisedly because some of the information is worth while. A lot of it is a collection of all the ideas of all the people working in

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2451 all the departments who know how to let the people and the world know what that particular department is doing. They've got 22 departments. All this is well and good, but I believe this government has gone overboard. It has placed too much emphasis on pushing information. Now certainly nobody will fault the government for wanting to reveal major items, but an awful lot of stuff is nothing short of pure political propaganda and nothing else is being pushed.

I would like to have someone compile a list of all the new brochures, reports and all the continual issues of things coming out from all departments, and not least of all I would say the Department of Agriculture. It has a mailing program second to none. These things all cost money. I think nobody will praise this government a year from now for ail the extravagant means they had of informing the people, telling them the nice things they did for them. When the hon. members in the House get up to ask questions they have to virtually arm- twist the ministers and the government to get the information they need.

That is more important, to dig up the information that perhaps is of public interest which may not be all that popular. I don't think that a year from now anyone will be impressed with the fact that the government reduced taxation for homeowners by $200 and the cities were forced to increase it by $250. Within two or three years we'll lose ground. A lot of the older people, a lot of the people who are not so well off, are not impressed with lavish government advertising. We might be rich, we might have money found. Some departments indicate they have money burning in their pockets.

On the other hand we have not solved some of the serious problems of poverty in this province. There are areas of poverty that are serious. Maybe we can look at this other side to see if we can by example or by diverting some of the spending from things we like to do, that are nice to do, do some of the things we must do. This matter of extravagant spending in advertising, I don't mean just newspaper advertising - some of it is absolutely necessary - but [I mean] the type of advertising where you get a full column in the paper showing six or seven pictures of ministers saying, we want your information.

In keeping with our policy of open government, we want your information. Then try to find a minister. I believe that come Stampede Week we'll have two or three pages advertising that all the ministers will be there to be seen. You couldn't find one if you chased him down on horseback. MR. DICKIE: That's not right. MR. LUDWIG: Not quite right, but mostly right. MR. DICKIE: It's completely wrong. MR. LUDWIG: Well, the hon. minister is obviously sensitive about it. Let's see where we'll find him on Stampede Week. I'm sure he won't ride a horse because a decent horse wouldn't let him ride him.

But this question of extravagant advertising and saying we want your opinion is in the nature of false packaging, because people can't be heard. People are not getting answers. People are complaining to the Ombudsman. So the minister's motive is good, that we want to coordinate all the information seekers to send them to the right minister who says, I'm sorry but the minister's not taking any more calls, Mr. Chairman. MR. HINMAN: I just want to ask the minister, how do you select the weekly papers to which the advertising and displays are sent? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Chairman, the weekly newspapers are evaluated by the Bureau of Public Affairs. The people hired by the bureau have a considerable amount of expertise in the field, and when they are given a request to provide a communication system with the public, they assess what they have to tell the people, which people they are trying to reach, and then they assess the various modes of media they will use to get that message to the people they are trying to reach. They have an evaluation system of the weekly newspapers and the coverage they can provide.

2452 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 Because this has been an item of some discussion in the House in past years, I checked with the bureau as to the relative satisfaction of the weekly newspapers in this regard.

My latest information is that the weekly newspapers are very satisfied with the amount of government advertising and how they are playing a role in the communications field, except for one small chain in which there is some disagreement as to the value of that group of newspapers, or weekly newspapers if you can call them that, and the bureau is meeting with them to try to reconcile their differences of opinion. MR. HINMAN: I'll follow it up. In my constituency I have one paper which serves an area of about 5,000 people. They tell me they have had none of this.

How can I tell them where to make their troubles known so they can be considered? MR. GETTY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would think perhaps the fastest way would be for the hon. member to provide me with the information as to the name of the weekly newspaper. There's no question we should easily be able to find out if they are getting none - which I would doubt - and why. However, we have to check it out. Sometimes the facts aren't substantiated when you look into it, but I'd be happy if the hon. member would bring the name of the paper to my attention after we break up tonight or any other time.

We'll certainly check it out. MR. RUSTE: Some time ago there was a two-page ad in The Edmonton Journal, and I think the minister's familiar with it. Two questions first: who paid for the ad and did it come through the Bureau of Public Affairs? MR. GETTY: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure whether the actual dollars came from the bureau's appropriation or whether they came from Lands and Forests and Environment. I would have to check that. However, the Bureau of Public Affairs was involved in the preparation and placing of the advertisement. MR. RUSTE: Another question then would be, how much did it cost? MR.

GETTY: I don't have that specific information, Mr. Chairman. MR. RUSTE: Well, Mr. Chairman, just further to that, it's rather interesting in looking at the ad itself - and I'm just quoting from portions of it here - it deals with a $30 million urban park recreation area: A plan developed by Edmonton MLA's and endorsed by the Alberta Cabinet - a plan that has been presented to City Council as the best possible approach to developing a provincial park in the Edmonton area. There is absolutely nothing there to the credit of the city fathers or the city councils, past and present.

I understand they have had park plans, master plans, different ones that have been going for years. I think the government is in an affluent time with, shall we say, windfall moneys coming in because I don't recall hearing anything about a cost benefit analysis on this. This was something that was used years and years ago and yet I don't hear anything now. I think there was a study made, something on a weir or dam downstream someplace. It is rather interesting having this come this way. I understand that this is paid for by government. As far as I'm concerned, it certainly gets into political advertising really.

MR. GETTY: Well, Mr. Chairman, any government has a valid function to keep the electorate as fully informed as possible of the government's programs. We try to keep them fully informed. It's a matter of opinion as to whether the hon. member believes it's valid or not.

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2453 MR. BENOIT: With regard to the publications the government puts out, I was wondering if a list is kept of all the publications by all the departments that go out regularly from the government. If not, could such a list be compiled so that we could have an idea where they were and what they were? MR. GETTY: Mr. Chairman, such a list was not in existence and we have been compiling one. As a matter of fact, it either is now complete or shortly will be.

We have plans, therefore, to circulate it so that citizens are as fully aware as possible of the variety of publications, reports, that have been collected or produced by the government. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I concur in the responsibility of the government to keep people informed. I am just wondering if, in some cases, you're trying to pound it in. What bothers me - it's costly and surely can be corrected, and I don't know the reason for it - is that I've been getting two and three copies of this type of thing. I get a copy in my office, another copy out in my box. I just got them now.

I've read all these before. They have already been to my office. So I think it would be wise if we cut them down to one. It makes me think of a few years ago in Centennial Year when the Hon. Judy LaMarsh sent me six invitations to go to Jasper. At the time I said, if she sends me one more I'll go, but she didn't do it. So I stayed home. MR. GETTY: Mr. Chairman, maybe if I sent him one more copy he'll believe. MR. RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, along the lines that the hon. Member for Drumheller raised, and we get these periodically, I notice a grant is given here and there.

Yet when you talk to some of the school and hospital officials, particularly in the rural areas, they would like to have some of the money. The amounts of moneys they are getting aren't sufficient to keep the standard. I'm thinking of education now in particular up to a level to, not shall I say compete, but compare with the city systems and the larger centres. I think this is something we have to look at in our order of priorities. [Then] we see two and a half million dollars here in the Bureau of Public Affairs, as the Member for Drumheller mentioned to pound something in.

I go back to this ad, and I hope the minister will find out what it did cost so that we can have that information. I think there is a lot of space used there that wouldn't have necessarily been needed to convey the ideas that were there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Appropriation 1446 agreed to: $2,431,512 Appropriation 1447 Alberta Gazette MR. RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, I have a note from the Provincial Treasurer. Some time ago I asked about the Queen's Printer, under which vote that was. In looking at my note, he says I believe Public Affairs, Executive Council. Could I have that information now? MR. MINIELY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman. There is no vote for the Queen's Printer. The Queen's Printer is a self-sustaining operation financed something like stock advances. In other words an advance goes, and this advance went years ago to the Queen's Printer from the time when the hon. member on the other side was a member of the cabinet. When the Queen's Printer was originally structured, an operating advance was made. It's non-budgetary in terms of expenditure because the Queen's Printer charges for its printing and as a matter of fact, in last year's Public Accounts, I think, it showed about a $50,000 profit.

2454 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 There is no vote for the operation of the Queen's Printer, but you can find it in the Public Accounts. There was no need for any further advance in recent years to the Queen's Printer for their operation, but if you look in the Public Accounts you will find a financial statement of their income, their expenditure and their balance sheet. I think in the most recent Public Accounts they showed a profit of about $50,000. MR. RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, to the minister then, has there been any study made of the Queen's Printer as such, and if so, will that be available? MR. GETTY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, there is a report which has just been completed as to the various printing and copying facilities of the government, including [those of] the Queen's Printer. That report has not yet come before the Executive Council but should in the near future. The Executive Council will also be able to consider whether or not the report should be made public. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask either minister a question with regard to government printing and the responsibilities of a Mr. Egan, who I believe is from Calgary.

I believe the announcement was made in the press that he was responsible for awarding government printing [contracts] to firms. I would like to know exactly what his job is, what his purpose is, who he is responsible to, which department is he responsible to and what his salary is. Although we might point at a touch of political patronage, the manner in which these appointments are made sort of invites that kind of criticism. It was well known that Mr. Egan had been a Conservative bagman for a long time and lo and behold he gets a nice appointment.

It's very hard for the public not to feel that this is some kind of 'take care of your own' set-up. Now, if you don't feel we ought to inquire whether there is a touch of patronage or political preference in these matters then a good explanation in this case would be worth more than the literature I get through the mails, Mr. Chairman. I'd really like to know what his responsibility is and whether there are others like him taking care of other parts of the country?

When you need to appoint a person to run around the country awarding contracts - at least that's the impression I got from the announcement - then this must be a pretty big operation. I wonder whether he has just a piece of the territory, a franchise on all of Alberta or just a corner of it. This I believe is a very valid question that ought to be explained in some detail, Mr. Chairman. MR. GETTY: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Egan was hired through the Bureau of Public Affairs, very simply to be the representative of the Queen's Printer in Calgary. Having the Queen's Printer located in Edmonton has been inconvenient.

At times people in southern Alberta have had the feeling they were not getting a fair share of the printing business of the government. Mr. Egan is under the Bureau of Public Affairs and is paid $12,000. MR. LUDWIG: Is it a full-time job or is he involved in some others? MR. GETTY: Full-time. MR. LUDWIG: Does he in fact dish out or contract for advertising of the government, public advertising? What is his specific work? I understood he was contracting printing for the government. MR. GETTY: No, Mr. Chairman, when the government is going to place printing, Mr.

Egan is the Bureau of Public Affairs' and the Queen's Printer's representative in Calgary and makes sure the people in Calgary are aware of and have the full oppportunity [to contract for] the printing and advertising the government might be placing. MR. CLARK: To the minister. Was Mr. Egan hired through a publicly advertised competition?

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2455 MR. GETTY: I'm not sure about that. I'd have to check that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CLARK: Mr. Minister, would you check that and then let us know. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to get some indication as to how much government printing, how much spending, has been made through the office of Mr. Egan. It's good information to know which firms got it, what was the nature of the printing and how he awards, whether he tenders cut huge contracts or whether these are smaller things [in which] he tries to sort of spread the business around.

I'm very much in favour of having business spread around to all firms. I'd like to know just what he has done, who gets it, who gets the lion's share of it, just so we get the complete picture. It's a legitimate concern of the Opposition, Mr. Chairman. MR. GETTY: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's a valid question and one on which perhaps the hon. member would give me full details either by motion for a return or a request in writing. Then I would get him exactly what he would like to have. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, I will give the hon. minister a memo but this is the right place to ask these questions.

We can't simply get everything on the Order Paper because it wouldn't require much effort on the part of a member who wants to get 15, 20 or 30 questions on the Order Paper. The problem is to get an answer. When we are dealing with budgets and spending one of our primary responsibilities here is to see that money is spent properly. This is the place to get this information. I'm not faulting the minister for not knowing details, but there should be some means of pulling the information out from the department, say, by tomorrow and just finding out how much went that way.

It isn't something that is so huge and massive that it would require a computer to get the information. There couldn't be that many government contracts for printing. MR. GETTY: Well, Mr. Chairman, the government does, in fact, do a tremendous amount of printing. I could not have at my disposal that portion that Mr. Egan might even be involved in. I'm not even sure that you could trace that amount in which, in fact, he had some participation because you wouldn't know whether it was granted because of him or not, or because he had pointed out to someone that the government had some printing that was up for tender.

I would check with the bureau and try [to find out]. So as not, though, to be collecting information that the hon. member really doesn't want, I think it would just be handy and courteous of him if he would give me what he would like to know. Then we would try to get it exactly. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, I believe the minister is sort of catching on to what I want. The government is spending so much money giving people information. If I can get this kind of information, Mr. Chairman, I could pass some of it on to the people without the government having to spend money.

That might help a little bit in saving the volume of paper. The follow-up question, Mr. Chairman, is, have they got the same kind of operation, the same kind of set-up in Edmonton? How large a territory would the gentleman who is handling the same responsibility in Edmonton cover? Would there be a similar position set up for the North or for the central part, or does Mr. Egan have everything south of Red Deer? We should know this because this is a big item. Government printing is a big item. How many people have similar positions? How many positions like Mr. Egan's have we got in the government? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Chairman, there is the Queen's Printer in Edmonton and the Queen's Printer's representative in Calgary, Mr. Egan.

2456 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 MR. RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, a further question to that on the study of the Queen's Printer. Mho authorized the study, and then who paid for it? I suppose that would be the same, whether it is the government or whatever for the study of the Queen's Printer. Then I'd appreciate having a list of the 36 government centres which you refer to. They are covered under this budget. It is not necessary now. MR. GETTY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Executive Council authorized the study to try to determine whether there was a duplication and the most effective kind of printing and copying facilities being developed in the government in an effort to be as efficient as possible. It will be paid by the government. As far as the number of towns in which the Alberta Information Service will be provided, it will be in every town that has a government office outside the city of Edmonton. There are 36 of them. The hon. member can probably rely on his own knowledge of the area he is in.

The reason I'm looking, I just had a map with each one of them in red but I must have left it in my office. If he wants names put beside each of the 36 I'll have the bureau do that and get him a copy. MR. BUCKWELL: Mr. Minister, is this where you have a provincial building, say a DA's office? MR. GETTY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it's an effort, really, to allow the people outside of Edmonton the same convenience of information that they have in Edmonton. In other words, they would not have to pay long-distance dialing.

They would have somebody guide them to the right department, either provide the information in the town where the provincial building is at no cost to the right department, or the right person in the department in Edmonton. Appropriation 1447 agreed to: $123,540 Office of Program Co-ordination Appropriation 1461 Central Office agreed to: $636,500 Appropriation 1463 Project Offices MR. CLARK: Whether [it goes] under 1461 or 1463 it doesn't make a difference.

I'd just simply like to register the fact that after the harangue we've been through on the northeast Alberta commission and then this particular vote here, 1461 and 1463 seems to a very great degree, as far as Fort McMurray is concerned, to have been a self-defeating venture or we wouldn't have been in the situation of having to have the legislation foisted upon us that we have this particular session in Bill No. 55. Appropriation 1463 agreed to: $87,500 Appropriation 1464 Lesser Slave Lake Projects agreed to

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2457 Appropriation 1470 Alberta Education Communications Corporation MR. GRUENWALD: Mr. Chairman, there is a noticeable increase here, 290 per cent. Could the minister give us some idea of the types of programs and the coverage that this communication has. In what parts of the province is this program available? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Chairman, this is the first year of the Alberta Education Communications Corporation. It is in fact a compilation or a bringing together of MEETA, CARET and radio station CKUA.

Last year, I believe, CARET'S budget was something like half a million dollars, MEETA something like $750,000 and CKUA something like a half million. This year it's $3.6 million. The coverage is intended to be province-wide. We announced some time ago that the corporation would be attempting to expand radio station CKUA FM across the province which will require an upgrading of existing transmission equipment, transmitter equipment, plus the addition of new facilities, for example in the south in Lethbridge.

As far as programming is concerned, I believe I distributed in the House some time ago this document which gives you some idea. There is a fold-out in it of the kinds of preschool and in-school programming the corporation will be doing. I will undertake to provide you with updated information and material as it is received by my colleague, the Minister of Education, and me from time to time. Television programming hopefully will involve an hour a day on CBC and four hours a day on another network this fall. That is in the stage of being negotiated and is not yet clear.

The substantial portion of the budget is upgrading the existing facilities, in some cases acquiring a substantial degree of new equipment and facilities. I would point out that part of the rationale for this corporation was to reduce the growth of this type of facility in the post-secondary educational institutions. The member who asked the question is, of course, aware that a considerable amount of these kinds of production facilities for radio and television exists within universities, public colleges and institutes.

In fact, you may have noted in my budget - that is, the Department of Advanced Education - a sum of money which is intended as seed money to encourage the institutions to utilize the resources of this corporation rather than going out and trying to duplicate the same by acquiring new facilities and, in fact, carrying on the work of the corporation. We're very hopeful that the institutions of higher learning in this province will, in fact, cooperate with the corporation.

We have every indication that that is so, and we're hopeful that the corporation will become the major vehicle for the delivery of educational broadcasting in the broadest sense - preschool, in-school and post-secondary - within the province. MR. GRUENWALD: First of all, would you assume that this budget will do the total upgrading program you referred to in our part of the province for the next year? MR. FOSTER: Yes. MR. GRUENWALD: That will do the total program. Then you are doing all the transmitting from these two centres, Calgary and Edmonton? And there will be ... [Inaudible] ... AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed. MR.

LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman ... MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe Mr. Miller wanted to speak first.

2458 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 MR. D. MILLER: I was out for a minute. Is there any connection between CHEK and CKUA? I see that CHEK is trying to get permission to set up a broadcasting station in Taber, but we asked enough questions last year, I thought, on CKUA for the south that ... AN HON. MEMBER: CHEK. AN HON. MEMBER: Where's that? MR. D. MILLER: Out of Lethbridge. MR. FOSTER: Sorry. I apologize to Lethbridge. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller, are you finished? MR. D. MILLER: That's all I wanted to know - if it had any connection with this? No connection? Is the minister still working on CKUA for the south? MR.

LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, no matter how much the cabinet gets around, I think the hon. minister could get around just a little bit more. As far as CKUA is concerned, I believe it has served a very useful purpose and it has been popular. It was interesting when the previous government was in office, that that station was a source of criticism to the government. I favour this very much. I believe the previous government remained in office for 36 years, not because it was pushing its own propaganda, but [because it] had a lot of critics throughout the province.

A government that can't stand some good wide open criticism is relying too heavily on promoting its own image. To a certain extent, the fact that the Social Credit government remained in office for 36 years, through a lot of changing times, a lot of very serious efforts made to dislodge it, has to be attributed to the fact that the media stations were on their toes and took them to task. Although it isn't easy to see the benefit of this when you are in office, it is a factor which I think is important. The public does not want to hear just all the nice things their government does, they want to hear all sides.

They know nobody is that good that he should be there for ever; nobody is that bad that they should throw him out immediately. So I think that when we get stations like CKUA set out through the province - I'm very much in favour of that, to have a minimum of government interference. Let the universities have their say. They sometimes have their say and later on come around and feel that not too bad a job is being done by the government. But the relentless criticism of all governments by the media, especially by one that was helped by the government, served a useful purpose.

Certainly, when we were in office we learned a lot of things about what we ought to do and perhaps what we ought to look at. It wasn't the Opposition. For many years we didn't have much of an Opposition to keep us alerted to many things. It's institutions like that. I think they are just as much a part of the true democratic process as perhaps the hon. members standing up here and taking issue with the minister on something.

So one thing I would like to support is a good budget for the setting up of cultural types of stations, stations that will place a lot of emphasis on educational programs, prominent speakers, speakers of the year, speakers of the month, good musical programs the type you can't get on every other station when you wish - university broadcasts, student involvement and critical forums. This is part of the educational System but also part of the way in which we the government and we the MLA's pick up information and get leads as to what perhaps ought to be looked at. So to that extent, Mr.

Chairman, I believe in a good, generous budget to provide the same kind of service, not only in Edmonton and within listening distance but to every corner of Alberta and beyond.

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2459 At one time CKUA increased its power, its range, and we in Calgary can in most instances get CKUA loud and clear. We often hear local programs so it isn't quite as important for us to get CKUA in Calgary as it is here, but some more local imput would be really welcome.

I know other stations may resist the granting of licences for other outlets because it is business, but nobody will fault the previous government or this government for having provided this kind of wide-open forum where the people can get on the air and take their government or some minister on and which generally keeps the public informed on perhaps the other side of the coin. So I'd commend the minister if he can promote this extension of the CKUA type of broadcasting in this province, but I'd also caution him that the government ought to keep its hands off.

If the government gets involved with government sponsored programs the authorities, institutions like the universities and schools, et cetera, will howl. They've made a good thing of it, it has been to the public interest and benefit and this spending, in my view, is most worth while. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. FOSTER: Mr.

Chairman, I very much appreciate and agree with the remarks just stated and perhaps I can factiously comment that if the hon. member is ascribing the 36 years of success of Social Credit to the critical function of CKUA for that period of time, then from what I have heard this government will be in office at least as long. MR. LUDWIG: With all due respect, I doubt whether the hon. members there have quite the stamina the Social Crediters have. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR.

FOSTER: I would comment that the concern for independence and autonomy is valid and of course this is a concern of the CRTC and was at their recent hearings in Vancouver. Of course that is something that authority - the CRTC - and we are to be concerned with. I would make the comment that now CKUA has, in fact, shifted jurisdiction from Alberta Government Telephones and the university to this corporation, I would simply, on behalf of my colleagues, express publicly our appreciation to The University of Alberta and Alberta Government Telephones for the many years of successful stewardship they provided to CKUA.

MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask two questions and make one comment. The first question is with regard to the new television channels coming into Edmonton. What relationship is it going to have with the Alberta Education Communications Corporation? It is my understanding that they plan to get a sizeable portion of their programming from this particular organization. That is the first point.

The second point I'd like to make is that I recall some of the discussions with the federal government officials, Secretary of State people, regarding CKUA and this government has taken upon itself to go this route as far as CKUA is concerned. I think this government also has to shoulder the responsibilities as far as the future of CKUA, from the standpoint of what kind of function it plays in the future.

The last point that I want to make is very frankly this: between the Bureau of Public Affairs, where we have $2.4 million this year, the Alberta Education Communications Corporation, where we have $3.6 million, and the additional $4 million for advertising we're looking at an excess of $10 million for use of the media by this government. The minister can say that the Alberta Education Communications Corporation is responsible for this particular area - yes it is - but the ultimate responsibility rests on the minister and this Legislature.

We're really dealing with between $10 million and $11 million of printed and spoken words and that's not a light responsibility for any government. MR. FOSTER: Mr. Chairman, agreed. With respect to CITV, which I think was the channel referred to, I think I indicated that the corporation is hoping to gain four hours a day with that

2460 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 particular network at which I understand was a particularly attractive price for the hours available. With respect to the second comment, [which is] a suggestion that perhaps government per se is directly responsible for the function and the future of CKUA, while I'm prepared to agree to that in part, I go back to my earlier comment about the independence or autonomy or arm's length relationship that the Corporation stands [for] with respect to government. It is in fact an arm's length relationship.

The Alberta Education Communications Authority represented by my colleague, the Minister of Education, and myself is involved - certainly, but not to the extent anticipated by the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition. Were it to be so, I'm sure the CRTC would be pretty anxious about that conclusion. We have a public responsibility for this corporation. The vote is here. The funds are here, but like a university - and that's a good example or a good parallel - this corporation and CKUA are beyond the direct reach and control of government, as they should be for the reasons that others have spoken about.

I just think that relationship is important to underline and make clear, and that no member of the House assumes that this minister or anyone else calls the shots as far as that radio station is concerned. With respect to the figure $10 million, well, again, that is true on the face of it. I underline strongly the fact that this is an Alberta Education Communications Corporation. It is not a propaganda mechanism or machine of the Alberta government. Given the relationship I have just described it is not to function in this way.

I am very confident that the board of directors of this corporation and the president of this corporation will tell the government where to get off if it attempts to tell the corporation the kinds of political activities it thinks it should engage in. If that's the implication, I think that is incorrect and should be made clear. I don't believe that was the message intended, and in the event it was I think it's important that those remarks be made. MR. CLARK: Who appoints the members? MR. FOSTER: The appointments are made by the government.

The Leader of the Opposition is a former Minister of Education and surely isn't naive enough to believe that because you appoint certain members to public colleges and boards of governors they are going to roll over and play dead or say yes and no according to the wishes of the Minister of Education or the Minister of Advanced Education, so don't put me on. MR. GRUENWALD: Just one very short question. You can say yes or no. Is there commercial advertising now or some anticipated in any of these programs? MR. FOSTER: ... [Not recorded] ... advertising of some kind.

The corporation is not out to gain advertising revenues, but it is out to sell and distribute its programs to ... MR. GRUENWALD: I mean commercial advertising. MR. FOSTER: No. MR. BENOIT: The minister gave a general explanation for the increase but it wasn't very specific. There is more than five times the amount in this vote, counting the capital vote for $1,628,000, which never existed before. That's a new one that didn't exist before. We have altogether over $5 million in a vote that last year had only approximately $950,000.

If we are going to give that much money we must have a little something to say about what goes on in the thing. I would like to have heard the minister say how much more. It says three transmitters. Where? Will there be one in each of the three cities, plus the ones that already exist?

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2461 AN HON. MEMBER: They're not adequate. MR. BENOIT: Beg your pardon? The ones that exist aren't adequate? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Chairman, it's perhaps coincidental that the member asking the questions is the same one who got a commitment from me on my estimates on detail. I would be quite happy to provide the member with complete details of the budget of $3.6 million together with the capital budget in the detail I have it here. I would be happy to let you have it. MR. RUSTE: Okay, Mr. Chairman, would the minister make that available to the members of the committee? MR. FOSTER: Yes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. RUSTE: Because when you look at Appropriation No. 1463 there's a sum of $87,500 there. It's broken down into the various scales. We would appreciate having that on this one here. MR. FOSTER: Mr. Chairman, I think it ... [Inaudible] ... for all members of the House to see what the corporation is up to in detail. I'd be delighted to see that you have it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. LUDWIG: You keep telling everybody it's open. Don't their actions speak loud enough? Do they have to keep trying to brainwash the people that it's open government? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR.

RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, earlier the minister referred to, I believe, one hour on the CBC and about four on the other network of TV programming. I would just like to point out that in the area where I live there's nothing but the CBC. Certainly representations have been made that they'd like to get other coverage. I'm just wondering what the minister has in mind to equalize the opportunities for the various parts of the province to get these programs and be able to use them. MR. FOSTER: Mr. Chairman, briefly, the objective of this corporation is that it should provide educational communications to Alberta.

We are dealing with private networks, national networks in some areas. The corporation will do its best to ensure that its coverage is as comprehensive as possible given the diverse geography of this province and the fact that some communities have access to limited national media and some, like Edmonton and Calgary, have very substantial access. They are in the course of negotiations right now with CBC and other people. So I can simply give you that undertaking as an approach by the corporation.

Whether or not they will be successful really depends on their negotiations but their mandate is province-wide communications. That doesn't mean simply one network or one medium at all. MR. RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, just a little further ...

2462 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 MR. FARRAN: ... [Inaudible] ... application in process for extended television coverage in Wainwright. I don't know if it's gone as far as the CRTC yet but it's certainly in the oven cocking. The only area in the province that hasn't got television at the moment, Fort Chipewayan, has been promised a station in the near future, through the efforts of the government to persuade the CRTC to give fairness to the people of Alberta. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right. MR. RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, to the minister again.

With reference to the one hour I understood on the CBC, are the four hours on different stations or different networks or was the ratio one to four? Did I misunderstand there? One to four. If you earned it within CBC coverage you wouldn't get the four part of it then? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Appropriation 1470 agreed to: $3,604,028 Agreed to: Appropriation 1481 Alberta Education Communications Corporation $1,627,983 Appropriation 1482 Metis Housing $1,000,000 MR.

BENOIT: I would just like to ask the minister if he could tell us - this is in Appropriation 2682 in Public Works - what the extension of the existing building for storage in Calgary is going to be for? What kind of storage? MR. FOSTER: I don't have the ... [Inaudible] ... I'm sorry. Department of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might ask the minister to outline for us in some detail the operation of the office in Ottawa as far as people are involved - the expertise the people involved have in the office in Ottawa, please. MR. GETTY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Ottawa office presently has three people. We have a director . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Minister. I wonder, Mr. Clark, did you just want general discussion, because that comes under Appropriation 3103. It doesn't matter? Just general discussion now? Go ahead, Mr. Minister.

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2463 MR. GETTY: It has a director, an intergovernmental affairs officer and a secretary, and there is a possibility that we may hire another girl. Essentially the office is there to keep the government fully informed of the various actions, policies and programs of the federal government and, as much as possible, to Keep the federal government informed of the policies and programs of the provincial government and to represent the Government of Alberta at certain meetings and discussions where we feel it is necessary. MR. CLARK: That was right in the area I wanted the comments.

What kinds of meetings? Would you be quite specific. Does the director represent the Province of Alberta at meetings in Ottawa? MR. GETTY: Well, it's almost impossible to generalize, Mr. Chairman. It would depend on the meeting. As we become aware of it we make a judgment decision as to whether or not there is an opportunity to have either a minister or an official of the government from Edmonton go to it; whether that is a wise expenditure of dollars and time. If it isn't, and we can't get them there for some reason, then the director will go.

It's strictly a judgment decision as to whether he would be the best representative for us at the meeting, discussion or conference, or whether an official minister would be better. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I will go at it from this approach. Can the minister give me two or three examples of where in the course of the last year the director of Alberta's office in Ottawa attended significant federal-provincial discussions or discussions between the Alberta and the federal government? MR. GETTY: Well, he has been present at a series of meetings that I've been at, Mr. Chairman.

Is the member referring to when he is the only representative ... MR. CLARK: When he is the senior official there. MR. GETTY: He has been in at the CTC hearings sometimes when it is a transportation matter and we do not have an official there. He has been in on CRTC hearings. He has been at continuing committee of officials meetings. He has been at metric conversion meetings when we do not have someone there. I'm sure there are more but these just come to mind. MR. CLARK: Did he take

part in any of the DREE - or was he the senior representative for Alberta during a number of the DREE discussions? MR. GETTY: No, Mr. Chairman, I don't think I can recall a meeting on DREE where he would be our senior representative. MR. GRUENWALD: Just a short question on the offices in London, Los Angeles and Tokyo. Are the senior personnel there from those countries or from here? MR. GETTY: The senior person in London is from Alberta. You will recall that I introduced him in the House during this session - Mr. Herb Pickering, who has only been there since November.

In Los Angeles there is a representative also from Alberta. In Tokyo, while the Department of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs is responsible for providing the space, the secretaries and the general appearance and so on of the office, the individuals, because they are really not in any way intergovernmental officers or [do not] have any kind of diplomatic status, work directly for the Minister of Industry and Commerce. As a matter of fact, the senior person there is of the Japanese race and from Japan.

2464 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 AN HON. MEMBER: Bilingual? MR. GETTY: Yes. MR. CLARK: I'd just like to ask the minister once again regarding the director in Ottawa, does he sit in on occasions in the House of Commons? Does he also do this kind of work? And are the parliamentary committees ... MR. GETTY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I did mention that.

It's a very frequent job of his to cover you know, when there are certain things happening in Ottawa and in the House of Commons that are particularly vital or interesting to the province - the question period or the debates and provide us with information because sometimes we have to react relatively quickly. The same is true to determine the total picture on House of Commons committee hearings. MR. CLARK: Could we use the specific example of the announcement made - I recognize the House of Commons isn't in session now - in Ottawa today by Mr. Macdonald?

What's the role of the Alberta office under that specific circumstance today? MR. GETTY: Well, on that one, Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure whether he was actually - wherever Mr. Macdonald made his statement. But he did pick up the statement immediately and have it transferred as quickly as possible to us by a photofax machine which saves telexing it or sending it through the mail. MR. RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, there is an increase in staff of about 50 per cent. Could the minister outline, just basically, where those are involved?

Then another question deals with the London, Tokyo and Los Angeles offices in relation to the Canada offices in those various places. What is the connection there? MR. GETTY: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the staff, I guess it has been a factor that in the building of the Department of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs, rather than create the total department or guess at what it might be - create squares and put people in them and then find out whether or not they are necessary - we have, in fact, kept what I consider to be a very minimum staff and have only added to it as the need appears necessary.

Although the hon. member is talking about a 50 per cent increase, I think we are talking about ten people. These people are necessary because in some cases we are finding that to keep on top of the various federal initiatives we need additional people. We have hired two extra people to be responsible for DREE. Others are in the area of secretarial staff, and one is an addition in my own office. As far as the offices in London, Tokyo and Los Angeles and how they relate to the federal offices, we have tried to ensure that they coordinate as closely as possible with the federal government's offices.

I know there is an excellent relationship between our London office and Canada House, and the Canadian High Commissioner in London. It's not quite as sharply distinctive because it's not a diplomatic thing in Los Angeles and Tokyo. But we attempt to work as closely as possible with the federal offices and make sure, when our people from Alberta are going, that the Department of External Affairs is fully aware of the various Alberta officials or ministers who are travelling in those countries. I must say that we get outstanding assistance from the federal government in those endeavours. MR.

RUSTE: The figures I used were the ones in the two columns. When I add them up one comes to 46 and the other to 31. That's where I get the increase. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ashton, do you wish to make that motion now? We still haven't had the motion. We might as well have the motion now from the subcommittee chairman.

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2465 MR. ASHTON: Yes, I'd like to submit the following resolution, Mr. Chairman. Resolved that a sum not exceeding $769,099.00 be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975, for the Department of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. RUSTE: I take it that all the debate up till this point hasn't been in order? MR. CHAIRMAN: Unanimously it has been in order. Mr. Dixon, you have a question? MR. DIXON: It's more of a general question.

I know the minister is becoming concerned with the arguments we seem to be having with the federal government which I think, as I read the Toronto and Montreal papers, are extending not just to government. I think the public itself down there is making some remarks, as fellow Canadians towards Albertans, which I don't like to see. I was wondering if the government has any plans to have some kind of - for the use of a better word I'll say educational program, to try to put Alberta's side of the story over. I'm genuinely concerned with the thing. It's not something that I'm trying to embarrass the government with.

It's with us. I am just wondering whether there are any plans, and I don't mean by opening up a public relations office in every place in Ontario. I'm wondering if we have material or something they can put out to different organizations that would assist the people in better understanding Alberta's position, in particular [with regard to] the oil and gas industry. While I'm on my feet, Mr. Chairman, I was reading the information service that we get from, I think, Mr. Huston with the Canadian Japanese Trade Association.

He was stressing the fact that he appreciated the provinces' trade groups going to Japan, but he felt that the federal government should have more action in the trade as it was a total Canadian picture. I was wondering if there have been any discussions regarding encouraging the federal government to coordinate the programs of the provinces in order that, for example, Alberta's efforts would be enhanced that much more as far as trade is concerned. MR. GETTY: Well, I'll deal with the last one first. We do attempt to make sure that our efforts in foreign countries are coordinated with the federal government.

There is nevertheless a degree of competition when provinces are attempting to market their products. Therefore there will always be the fact that the federal government can't select one province and push its products in preference to another's.

Therefore, while the federal government can create the overall Canadian image and provide as much door-opening as possible and awareness of the provinces, the things the provinces have to market and the story they have to tell, I think it's still the responsibility of the provinces by their own initiatives to market their products, to find long-term contracts and to attract investment. While we try to coordinate as much as possible, and I must say lots of it is being done, in many cases we will be competing with other provinces.

In terms of the member's expressed concern over a general feeling in eastern Canada that things aren't the way they always have been out West, I think that's valid. There's no question about it. The government is aware of it. I draw the hon. member's attention to the Throne Speech, [to] the opportunities and challenges [section] where the speech is quite specific. It says that the opportunities for our citizens have never been greater, "But such times create special responsibilities for governments and legislators. ...

Such times also create natural stresses within our country as long-term power structures are challenged and altered." Well they, in fact, are being challenged and hopefully altered. I think it's for the betterment of Canada and certainly for the betterment of Alberta. That creates the natural stresses. We have had recommendations from some people who have been concerned in this area that we consider a mass advertising campaign in eastern Canada of some kind of corporate image of the province of Alberta.

Frankly, as of now we have rejected it because we just don't think the cost would justify the benefits from it, but I would draw the hon. members' attention to the number of times the province has attempted through the media, through trips and the Premier to get the Alberta Story across. It’s also the responsibility of our members in the House of Commons and all Albertans when they travel throughout Canada.

2466 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 We’re aware of the concern he expresses, but we think that is going to be there, these stresses and tensions, as we do challenge and alter long-standing habits in our country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. DIXON: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the minister’s remark. I’d like to throw out a suggestion to him. We can go down there, but I don't think it has quite the same effect. I was wondering if we could consider some sort of program. I'm throwing this out only as one suggestion. I know there will be many others.

I was wondering if we couldn't make an attempt to get a number of people in publishing and newspapers, that type of group, to come out and visit Alberta as a group. The government would sponsor such a thing in order that we can have the news media in eastern Canada, who I think would probably go back home with a better picture. I'm not thinking of the national news media so much as the people who are influential within their own localities, like Toronto, Ottawa and Sarnia, and Sarnia has been in the picture a lot. If there is criticism at least they'll have our side of the story. AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed. MR.

GETTY: Well, Mr. Chairman, we have been encouraging as a matter of fact, through the Bureau of Public Affairs, a visiting journalists program. They have been coming and we have been in that way attempting to express the Alberta point of view. On some occasions the government has spoken directly to the editorial boards of the various influential newspapers across Canada to make sure they understand the Government of Alberta's position.

Again I must say that we are going to have a continuation of some strains and stresses because frankly, as we've discussed before, these things are not being accepted lightly in eastern Canada. Yet they are valid, reasonable and justified and therefore I think we should continue to pursue them. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ready for the question? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Moved by the Chairman of Subcommittee D, Mr. Ashton:

Be it resolved that a sum not exceeding $769,099 be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975, for the Department of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. [The motion was carried.] MR. GETTY: I move that the motion be reported. [The motion was carried.] Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation MR. YOUNG: Mr. Chairman, Subcommittee C has had under consideration Vote 28, the Estimates of Expenditure for the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and begs to report the same. I therefore submit the following resolution:

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2467 Resolved that a sum not exceeding, for Income Account, $18,881,580, and chargeable to Capital Account, $2,595,000, for a total of $21,476,580, be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975, for the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation. MR. WILSON: Early in April I got carried away in my enthusiasm to make a point and as a result I would hereby like to tender an apology to the hon. Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation, to Mr.

Ron Butlin of Sport Alberta, to the Alberta Summer Games and in particular to the White Water Canoeing Association for using their names without permission. Now then, having sort of cleansed my soul, I would like to ask the hon. minister if he has anything new to report on the problems we drew to his attention regarding the Alberta Lacrosse Association participating in the summer games? MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Chairman, in reply to that question, of course I have to mention again that really the committee which was drawn up to delegate and set up, I would say, the regulations for the summer games felt that in order to make sure that representation at the games was not only from the cities of Edmonton and Calgary, certain regions should be drawn up. And if a sport has representation from all regions then that sport is eligible for transportation costs to the Alberta Summer Games. Once they are there, of course, they get full support for their lodging, their board and everything else.

Only their transportation costs are in question in this case. This was done, Mr. Chairman, to encourage every sport to have at least a team representative from every region drawn up by that committee and lacrosse doesn't have that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. ANDERSON: On Appropriation 2822 with this objectional literature protection. Are they doing anything at all? The magazines I see - I don't know what could be more objectionable. MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Chairman, as the hon. member may know and as I've mentioned before, of course the biggest problem is that the Alberta wholesalers have agreed to withdraw certain magazines from distribution once they have been found to be objectionable by the board, but a great number of these magazines are being shipped directly from the United States to certain retailers in Alberta and therefore these magazines are only open I would say, to prosecution under the Criminal Code of Canada. As the hon. member may know, we can't prosecute because our Objectional Publications Board is just an advisory board. MR.

ANDERSON: We have a birth control centre in Lethbridge and this objectionable literature is there and it's for children 12 years old. I had some samples sent to me. Was this checked out at all? MR. SCHMID: Do I understand the hon. member had some birth control samples sent to him or ... MR. ANDERSON: Literature from a birth control centre, not samples. This literature is from birth control centres and there are children from the age of 12 and even younger going into these centres and getting these books. They are floating all around town. MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Chairman, I very much appreciate the concern of the hon. member but again I have to repeat that all the board is there for really is to advise. Therefore we cannot prosecute if it is found or to be chargeable under the Criminal Code of Canada. Really what the hon. member could do is lodge a complaint with the local police and they will take it from there.

2468 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, When I hear people complaining about all the magazines they go around looking for, buying, paying high money for and reading, it reminds me of a person we had in this House at one time. This particular person was always haranguing us about the kind of literature we have. Of course we never heard of it until she announced it. It reminds me of a poem which is very appropriate for this kind of issue. It goes like this: She reads with indignation haughty, The magazines she thinks are naughty.

But reads them carefully so that, She'd know what to be angry at. And that's what some of these people are like - like the hon. member, Mr. Anderson. Mr. Anderson apparently accumulates some of these things. He'd better not say he has some in his hotel room because we'll be up there trying to see just what he has accumulated, Mr. Chairman. MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman, they are not in my hotel room. If the gentleman wants to see them he can come down to my office. I keep them there. MR. SCHMID: For the information of the member, at least I keep in my safe the ones I receive to be looked at. MR. BENOIT: Ah!

Now I want to know which one. AN HON. MEMBER: He just wants to look at the centrefold. MR. BENOIT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister a question with regard to the money that is being spent for youth hostels. I saw recently in a news release that some was being spent in the city. I lost the news release before I finished reading it. I just wanted to know if the department is going to be responsible financially or in any other way for any of the hostels that will be planted along the Kananaskis Road? MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder, Mr. Benoit, if Mr. Taylor might not have two copies of that news release. MR.

SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Member for Drumheller is nodding his head, so obviously he has. Maybe he can pass one on to the hon. Member for Highwood. May I say that, of course, the program regarding the development of youth hosteling in Alberta was part of the platform during the last election. This is only the first year . . . DR. BOUVIER: No politics ... MR. SCHMID: ... of our support of the youth hosteling system. The reason Calgary received the first amount is because the development of youth hosteling along the eastern slopes has not gone so far as to allow, permit financing of an actual building.

We hope, of course, to do so in the years to come. MR. BENOIT: I had something else and I can't think of it now, Mr. Chairman.

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2469 MR. CLARK: While the hon. member is waiting for inspiration I wonder if I might ask the minister for some sort of accounting as to the present stage of the report done by Dr. Downey and associates on the rights of individuals in amateur sports? What action has the government planned? Also what kind of liaison has there been with the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association in this regard? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, the original report, of course, has been tabled in the House. A subsequent or final report has been published.

Presently the government is studying and considering what kind of action should be taken regarding the recommendation of the Downey-Hawkey report. Once an action is contemplated, of course, we would do so in full consultation with the Downey group as well as the Amateur Hockey Association of Alberta and possibly even Canada. MR. CLARK: Following that along, Mr. Chairman. What is the minister's reaction to the recommendation that an amateur hockey commission be established? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, also in there, of course, is a sort of recommendation to have a type of ombudsman.

Whether it should be a commission or an ombudsman or a similar type of body is exactly the type of consideration we are presently looking at. MR. CLARK: In light of the fact that you are looking at those kinds of possibilities, either an ombudsman or commission, I assume then that you feel the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association isn't doing the job it should be doing. Is that a fair assessment? MR. SCHMID: No, Mr. Chairman, not at all.

In fact I would suggest that having probably a person who is not connected in any way, shape or form [with either] government or a sports association, in this case the Amateur Hockey Association, would benefit probably the Amateur Hockey Association if such a step is really implemented. MR. CLARK: Have you had those kinds of discussions with the officials of the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association to date? Does that accurately reflect their point of view, that in fact a commission or ombudsman would enhance their situation? MR.

SCHMID: As I've said before, once we get into the stages of final resolutions we will consult with them. Until such time, of course, the whole discussion really is only conjecture anyway. MR. CLARK: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear to the minister. Have you had discussions with the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association regarding the appointment of either a hockey ombudsman or a hockey commission in Alberta, and has the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association in any way, shape or form indicated to the minister they favour such action? MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Chairman, maybe I should repeat, once we reach the stage of whether or not we are considering such an establishment, then of course we would consult with the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association. MR. CLARK: Well, we can go on like this until quarter to ten. We can have an answer right now and you can get your estimates finished by quarter to ten, or we can carry on tomorrow or whenever the Government House Leader wants to call them again.

2470 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 Now, have you had meetings with the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association? You shake your head, then say no. Has the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association indicated to you in any way that they favour the appointment of a hockey ombudsman or a hockey commission? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, the indications the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association actually has given have been submitted to the Downey study. Since that time I have not solicited any additional opinions from the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association and therefore I can only say that I have not consulted with them to date. MR.

CLARK: But while you may not have solicited comments from them, is it not true that they have indicated to you that they are less than enthusiastic about a hockey ombudsman or a hockey commissioner? MR. SCHMID: I was made aware of this fact, Mr. Chairman, before the final report of the study was presented to me. MR. CLARK: We're making progress. Now could we go on, Mr. Chairman, to ask the minister to outline to us what kind of approach the department takes when a hockey team, let's say from Hamilton, Ontario, indicates that it wants to come and play hockey in Alberta, as a team did this winter?

Would the minister like to outline to us the involvement of the department in that particular situation, and how much money did the department put up for this hockey team? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, we have announced a policy which concerns Alberta teams and there is a certain percentage available to Alberta teams if they go to invitational meets. In this case I think it's 10 per cent of the actual travel costs.

If it is a national competition of that particular body or even a western Canadian competition, then up to 25 per cent of the actual travel costs is available, and in each case up to a total amount of $2,000 for each individual competition. So I think the criteria of the announcement that was made not very long ago could fit applications by Alberta teams travelling to other points in Canada for competitions. MR. CLARK: I'm not sure whether I don't speak very clearly or whether the minister doesn't answer very clearly.

The situation is this: hockey teams from Ontario coming to play hockey in Alberta, which played hockey south of Edmonton and also in the Hinton and Jasper areas this last winter. Under what program of the department did they receive financial assistance and what are the guidelines? How many other teams from other areas of Canada came to Alberta, and why was this team from Ontario selected? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, of course I'm not aware of how the Hamilton team which came to Alberta was selected.

There is a bus within the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation which is available to any group which does not get other direct or indirect financial support from the provincial government or any other government level. In other words, if there's a hockey team travelling from here to Calgary and the bus is available - first come, first served - they can use this bus. Now the team the hon. member is referring to and others - for instance, some came from Sweden I understand - needed the bus and the bus was made available to them.

As far as I know, the only financial consideration they received was to have a bus made available to them to travel from point A to point B. MR. CLARK: I'll follow that along a little further. Would the minister then check with the officials of his department to see if, in fact, the Government of Alberta, either through your department or some other government agency, paid the accommodations for this hockey team from Ontario that was in the Jasper-Edson area this last winter?

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2471 MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, to my knowledge it definitely was not paid by the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and I could certainly inquire if the members wish. Maybe they should put it on the Order Paper and find out whether the accommodation was paid or not. I think, Mr.

Chairman, the teams that came, whether from Hamilton, from British Columbia, even the ones from Sweden, were all billeted at those tires because they were from different organizations - one I think was the Lions and the other one the Kinsmen with the people of the town or village or municipality they travelled to. I don't think it was very expensive as far as lodging was concerned, Mr. Chairman. MR. CLARK: I think if the minister will check, specifically at Edson and Hinton and perhaps Jasper, he'll find perhaps that isn't right, although I'm not sure.

If he'd also check the arrangements that were made by - I believe it was the department. The reason I'm not doing it as a motion for a return is that sometimes motions for a return take a considerable period of time. Perhaps the minister could have his officials in the gallery check it out and then let us know tomorrow or the next day on this specific situation. Now could I go on to one other matter? This deals with money made available through the PEP and STEP programs for hockey clinics held inside Alberta and specifically the one held by Mr. Doug Messier's group.

Would you care to outline the circumstances to us now regarding that particular grant and why we can't get a financial accounting of the situation? MR. SCHMID: Well, Mr. Chairman, first of all maybe I should revert to the other question. I certainly will get a report to the hon. member regarding the payment of lodging either in Edson, Jasper or Hinton, if there was any such payment, of which I am not aware of course. I doubt whether there was a payment, but if there was I don't think it was out of this department. MR. CLARK: [Inaudible] MR. SCHMID: I will check all the other departments, yes.

Now, going to the hockey clinics. Mr. Chairman, a decision had to be made because we were asked many times for a pilot project, whether or not it is possible to have hockey clinics during a certain time of the year and to employ young people in playing, coaching and teaching hockey to other young kids, and whether or not government should or could be involved. This is how the hockey clinics came about. Now to go specifically to Mr. Messier. Mr. Messier, of course, had to be asked whether or not he would submit his financial statements. Mr.

Messier did not even reply to us, so we assumed therefore that the financial statements from Mr. Messier were not available. However, we are satisfied that the money which the individual students received was paid from the department to the individual students. Therefore we are not so concerned with the financial statements of Mr. Messier. If, for instance, the students had been paid directly by Mr. Messier we would have retained money from the government for other things than payment of the students who were involved in that hockey coaching enterprise. MR.

CLARK: Could the minister give us some sort of assessment as to whether this was a successful venture? You said this was a pilot project. Let's start there. Was it a successful venture? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, it definitely was successful as far as employment of these young hockey enthusiasts was concerned. However, since in the meantime NAIT has taken over this type of hockey schooling, we did not feel we should involve ourselves any further in the development of this kind of project for teaching and coaching hockey in this province. MR.

CLARK: Well, just following that along, will officials of the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation be involved in organizing hockey schools this summer? Are any officials of this department actively involved now?

2472 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, they may, of course, be involved in an advisory capacity. However, since the Department of Advanced Education, through NAIT, is involved in that now, the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation has withdrawn from this type of activity. MR. CLARK: So the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and the Department of Advanced Education will be putting on hockey clinics at NAIT this year? MR. SCHMID: The Department of Advanced Education indirectly, of course, is financing these hockey clinics to provide financial support for NAIT.

This is the only way we are actually involved. We are not financially involved as a department in the hockey clinics this year. MR. CLARK: How many hockey clinics like this are we going to have across the province this year? Are we just going to have the one at NAIT, with no other hockey clinics paid for by the province? MR. SCHMID: That is the correct assumption, Mr. Chairman. MR. CLARK: Then could I ask, are officials of the department going to be involved in any way in hockey schools outside the province this year, primarily at Dawson Creek and Whitehorse?

Because, amazingly to me, in this experiment the minister talks about last year, two of the three schools were held outside of Alberta. This was an experimental project to see how well this would work. We had two of the three schools held outside the province. Now I know the minister is going to tell us that no officials of the department, or students of Alberta, had their way paid any further north than just the Alberta border. I don't accept that. Nevertheless, that’s a personal point of view and the minister has another point of view.

But it is just amazing to me that in the course of the year, when we were doing pilot projects to see how successful hockey clinics were in this province, we would have one in Alberta and two outside the province. Then we can't even get the financial statement of what went on. Frankly, I don't think the department knows what went on and I'm not convinced the department did very much to find out what went on either. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, I can assure the hon. member I was very much aware that two of the hockey clinics were held outside of Alberta.

However, the hon. member I'm quite sure also knows that the training areas of Dawson Creek and Fort St. John are really within the training area of Alberta. I thought that as a province benefiting by the trade of the people of Dawson Creek and Fort St. John, whether it be in taxes now or sending them manufactured goods as well like the hay, wheat and beef that are being shipped up there from Alberta - it was only fair that a little bit of all that money could go into Dawson Creek from Alberta, in this case of course in the way of a hockey clinic. MR.

CLARK: ... that is the ... [Inaudible] ... argument I've ever heard in this House. Could I just get on to one other comment now? That would deal with the announcements the minister made some time age about assisting sporting organizations in the province on a matching basis. I commend the minister for that, surprised as the minister may feel. That's a good venture as far as spectator sports are concerned. But those sports which are not spectator sports, that don't have the ability to attact spectators, are going to be very severely hampered by a matching grant approach.

As far as the spectator sports are concerned I think that is a step in the right direction, but as far as the non- spectator sports are concerned, it's going to handicap those sports a great deal. So what I'm asking the minister is, have you given any consideration to modifying the program you have to help make it more possible for those kinds of sports to really have a piece of the action?

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2473 MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, first of all, of course, I appreciate the comments of the hon. Leader of the Opposition regarding the support of the amateur sports program. Maybe I should state at this time that really all we tried to do is establish a base from which we hope to work. For instance, I very much appreciate the problems which the Alberta Weightlifting Association would have to raise funds by the attendance of spectators.

On the other hand, for associations like the Alberta Baseball Association, an amount of $3,000 for future projects probably won't prove enough because maybe they would like to hire their own executive director. However, I have to state that this is a base and hopefully in the near future we can modify, adjust, increase and do whatever else is necessary from this base. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could ask the hon. minister if he has had an opportunity to consider the inclusion of a hamlet in the definition of municipality for recreational grants? MR. SCHMID: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I am very much aware of the concern of the hon. member. He has written to me on that. Again, I have to state that even in this case now in project cooperation we had to arrive at a formula, try out how that formula works, how does project cooperation work. Do the service organizations really know what they want to do with it? Do the municipalities know?

From there now, again, by experience and by suggestions such as the hon. member made, of course we hope to modify, adjust and as far as I'm concerned, as minister of this department, increase the amounts available to the municipalities for recreational facilities. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, could we adjourn? The hon. minister looks like he needs a break. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, do I take it that it is still under consideration then? MR. SCHMID: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. TAYLOR: Thank you. MR. DIXON: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to follow up on the suggestion of the hon.

Member for Lethbridge East regarding objectionable literature. I think we were led down the garden path by the hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View because he talked about paid magazines. What the hon. Member for Lethbridge East is talking about is literature that is distributed free, where this government is paying 80 per cent of its cost. Whom does he lay the charge against, the birth control centre or the government which is paying 80 per cent? I looked at some of the literature that the hon. member showed me.

I think the department should take it upon itself, perhaps the Department of Health and Social Development rather than even your department, Mr. Minister, because they are the ones who are putting up the 80 per cent. These people in Lethbridge are frustrated. They don't seem to be able to get anywhere. It's not a matter of paid material. The parents in Lethbridge are objecting to material that is handed out to 10 and 12-year olds. I'm just wondering whether the minister will take it upon himself or in cooperation with the Minister of ... MR. ZANDER: The environment. MR. DIXON: ...

Health and Social Development to see if this complaint is legitimate in their eyes.

2474 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, I certainly will endeavour to consult with the hon. the Attorney General as well as with the Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. SORENSON: Mr. Minister, earlier this evening we heard [remarks] concerning advertising, government publicity and the millions of dollars being expended. I was just wondering why we have to run a series on the cabinet ministers on the back of this otherwise excellent little magazine, Heritage. I just wonder if you would care to ... MR. SCHMID: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I prepared a little speech.

Maybe I should still give it because, really, every single cabinet minister has been most cooperative in helping this department achieve its goals in service to the people of Alberta. MR. RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, a question to the minister. What's he going to use for the back page when he has run out of ministers? [Interjections] Well, I wish to follow up this question on Appropriation 2822, Objectionable Publications. My understanding from the minister was that this board couldn't do anything. Yet we have here, under a change from the 1973-74 forecast, a 433 per cent increase.

If they can't do anything, well, why have them? This is the question I raise to the minister. MR. SCHMID: Well, Mr. Chairman, again, as probably the hon. member knows, it's a leftover, a carry-over, whichever you want to call it, of the last government. It has an advisory capacity. All the board can do, really, is advise local or provincial wholesalers of these publications to withdraw these publications from the retail outlets. They can do so, but they don't have to do so.

The best way and the only way open, really, to charge these publications is [under] the Criminal Code of Canada, and that of course is a federal jurisdiction. MR. RUSTE: Well, Mr. Chairman, then I understand that they can do something, unless that's from my understanding of the board's original intent when it was in operation before. That's why I raised the question that way. MR. BENOIT: One easy quick one. From what appropriation does the money come for the development, direction and maintenance of youth hostels? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, it is under the youth division.

If you permit me I could get you the exact number of the youth development appropriation. It should be under Appropriation 2854, Mr. Chairman, but I could have a look for the hon. member. Yes, Mr. Chairman, it's under Vote 2854. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. minister briefly advise what the financial assistance policy of this department is regarding financial assistance to ethnic groups when they desire to establish permanent headquarters, such as mortgage or buy a building? What is your policy on that? MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Chairman, the policy of this government is to help all ethnic culture groups of this province retain their cultural heritage. Each individual application is really judged on its own merits, on the support the individual ethnic culture group has, on its financial standing, on its needs, on many other aspects, and also of course on the advice of the Alberta Cultural Heritage Council.

May 23, 1974 ALBERTA HANSARD 2475 MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, so we can just fully understand how the situation works, would the minister use one group as an example of what happened, and the extent that they assisted? For example, the Scandinavian Centre in Calgary - would you describe to us how you assessed that one, how much assistance you gave, whether it was a grant or a mortgage and so on? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, of course this is a very specific and terrific case. One of the greatest contributions to Alberta has been made by the pioneers of Scandinavian ancestry. AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed. MR.

SCHMID: As you all know, in order to preserve their heritage they have established community halls and cultural centres in Camrose, for that matter in Edmonton and in many other places in Alberta. However, they did not have one in Calgary. They were given a percentage of their cost to help them establish a Scandinavian Centre in the city of Calgary, and I think it was in the amount of about $19,000. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, would the minister regard that as a typical one, and could other ethnic groups use that as a precedent? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, of course, in proportion. Let's put it this way.

If I can use an example now, we also have the Polynesian ethnic cultural group in this province, but since we only have eight members in that group, naturally the support that group could receive in proportion to 103,000 Scandinavians is entirely different. MR. WILSON: Well then, Mr. Chairman, to the minister. The $19,000 that went to the Scandinavian Centre, did I understand you to say that was a grant? Could you tell us just which vote that came under? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, a correction please. The exact number of people of Scandinavian ethnic origin in Alberta is really 98,000.

And to reply now to the hon. member's question ... MR. WILSON: Which vote did that example come under? MR. CHAIRMAN: Vote 2818, I think. MR. SCHMID: It would be under last year's vote, Mr. Chairman. It wouldn't be under this year's. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. MR. SCHMID: But it would be under Cultural Development. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, there are some members on this side who still have some questions. Might we adjourn and get on with the business of the Parliamentary Association? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

2476 ALBERTA HANSARD May 23, 1974 MR. FARRAN: Mr. Chairman, about the Scandinavian Centre in Calgary North Hill. They did not build a new building, they took over an existing building from St. Joseph's Credit Union, and I am extremely proud that this centre should have been established for Canadians of Scandinavian origin in my riding. MR. SCHMID: In reply to the hon. member, it is Vote No. 2818 under which this kind of support would normally be given. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise, report progress and beg leave to sit again. [The motion was carried.] [Mr. Diachuk left the Chair.] * * [Mr.

Speaker resumed the Chair.] MR. DIACHUK: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has had under consideration certain estimates, reports progress and begs leave to sit again. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the report and the request for leave to sit again, do you all agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow we will continue with Committee of Supply, beginning with continuation of the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation estimates, and then continue with estimates of the Departments of the Treasury, Attorney General and possibly Environment.

I move that the Assembly do now adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the motion for adjournment by the hon. Government House Leader, do you all agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: The House stands adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. [The House rose at 9:57 o'clock.]