VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE QF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, MAY 11, 1982 NO. 2

May 11, 1981 Tape No. 35 NM - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M . Mr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please~ MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: f.'r. Speaker, before \.•r e !r''JVC to the Orders of the Day, ever: t.::e Il.O'-!t:ine Orders, I we .!l~ like to, and I know the ho!1. c-8 nt2-e::\en ':h2re opposite ~: -:d v.:.l members of the House would like to join in an expressio~ of sympathy t-a t_he late Mr. George W. D. Allen, the former Auditor Generdl of this Province, and as such also a former servant of l'··~ House. Mr.

Allen had been the Auditor General for quite a period of time. He was the first Auditor General 1I believe,after Confederation, and shortly after Confederation in 1950 he transferred from Director of Taxation to this particular post, and he served it emrninently and with a great deal of distinction. ·He is well known in the Provine~· Apart from the fact of his occupying this high office in the public service he also contributed a great deal to community affairs in the Province. I wouLd like, as I know all members will wish,to join in an expression of sympathy to his widow, Mrs.

Irma Allen, and his two daughters and members of his family. Mr. Allen,as I say 1 is well known to all of us. He had a great facility for interest, particularly in younger people, and he had a great hand in the development of the public service. So I would like to prop~se, Mr. Speaker, that a message of sympathy go forth 1 from the Assembly to his widow and the members of his family. 83

May 11, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Tape No. 35 NM - 2 The hon. member for the Mr. Speaker, we on this side wish to associate ourselves with the message which 94

May 11,1982 Tape No.36 ah-1 MR. ROBERTS: has suggested we send the President of the Council from the House. I guess I am one of the few me:1 '..eft in the House who had the ol~ast.:re of knowing Mr. Allen personally. The minister would k~ow him well because oC: ._·curse the minister's father w·as the Deputy Minister a~d the Comptroller during, I guess, almost all of ths 1·ocrioC::. ,if not all the period ,t.ha:-. '1r. Allen was the Auditor Gc-::-te:C'.} of the ProvincE. :1r.

Allen, Sir, was not only 2 c:;en·t ·_e.me.n in every se!lse ~he word but was a model of a p:cofer.si0::oal and a model of a ~ub'.L- servant, and the stamp which he put on the ~uditor General's u-fice has been well and truly carried out by his successors, by Mr. Howley,and now by Mr. McGcath. Tlx· J.ate Mr. 1\llen served , I believe, for about 20 -25 years as the the Auditor General. I doubt if we will ever again see a man who will make that kind of a contribution to the Province. His ; passing is the closing of a stage in our history.

I think it is appropriate that the House note it with regret and that a message of sympathy ~10 to his widow,Mrs.Allen, to the two daughters who survive him, and their grandchildren. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (Mr.Russell): Before we proceed with the Statements by Ministers 1 I have been requested, anrt j mloed it is an honour for me to welcome to the galleries today Mr.Henri Everaars,Head of the Economic

Section Royal Netherlands Embassy, Ottawa,and Mr. Anthony Ayrer Consul for Belgium and the Netherlands, St. John's. I welcome these distinguished gentlemen to the galleries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 95

May 11,1982 Tape No. 36 ah-2 ORAL QUESTIONS MR.SPEAKER (Mr.Russell): The hon. member for Fogo. MR.TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries and it relates . . to the opening or closing of fish plants in the Province. Two or three days ago the minister indicated that some of this Province's fish plants will probably not be re-opening this year, -as a matter of fact I believe he said they would not be re-opening: In particular he noted that not all the Nickerson plants along the Northeast Coast would be re-opening.

I am sure that the minister recognizes that the inshore fishery has started and that many of the fishermen and plant workers are concerned about that problem. My question then to the minister is would he indicate to the House how many fish plants there are in the whole of the Province that will not be re-opening this year? And would he tell us where they are locateo.'that is, in what communities they are? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, since last Fall -early Fall, late Summer -many fish plants around the Province were closed and have been closed since that time.As a result of this administration and the efforts of the Premier and myself as his Minister of Fisheries, and the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) and the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins),we have been able to re-open twenty-seven fish plants. 96

May 11, 1982 Tape 37 EC - 1 SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: And these twenty-seven fish plants I could list them o:-:f but it would take too long to co it, Mr. Speaker - around the Province, most of them inshore fish plants; I think there is a total of four, ~1at ar~ what we call offshore plants involving the cJc .':e Group and Burgeo Seafoods at 3urgeo, the others all boinc inshore fish plants, aP..d unfo:c~unateJy these fish plunts had to be opened with the dollars of the taxpayers of this Province by means of financial assistance.

Because of the high interest rates and because of the slack economy in the U.S.A. and weaker markets the companies found themselves in financial difficulty· So as a result we have to provide some financial assistance to those plants which we feel can be viable in the future and, in fact, we are determined to make viable in the future. I say it unfortunately had to be done strictly by Newfoundland taxpayers' dollars because we could not get any co-operation from the federal level of government - SOME RON. MEMBERS; Shame! MR. MORGAN: - and especially from the federal government task force.

We are presently working on a very serious problem at the largest inshore fish plant at St. Anthony. We are doing all we can in our power to get that plant open but it will take the co-operation of the federal government. It will take the involvement of the federal government task force headed by Mr. Trudeau's right-hand man, Mr. Kirby, but to date he has not shown too much interest in that situation ut st. Anthony. We have a number of inshore plan~ s owned by the Nickerson Group. ~7

May 11, 1982 Tape 37 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: The Nickerson Group from Nova Scotia,unfortunately again1was turned dom1 +ecently for financial assistance for Nova Scotian operations. 'l'hey asked for financial assistance from the federal level of government; however, the federal government said no, which will leave these plants in Nova Scotia to fall by the wayside, that is my projection at this time. However, we are determined to do whatever we can to prevent as many plants as possible from falling by the wayside in this Province as owned by Nickersons. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. TULK: MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : member for f'ogo. MR. TULK: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the I think the minister should r0.alize one thing, that fish in the boat and in the water belongs to the federal government and is the jurisdiction of the federal government,but when it comes on the wharf it is the responsibility of the Minister of Fisheries in Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: Hear, hear! Right on. But the minister did not answer the question.

The question was: He indicated that there were fish plants on the Northeast Coast that we are not going to reopen; the question is, are there other fish plants in this Province and where are they? Now the minister is also quoted as saying that both the provincial government and the company feel that plants which are not economically viable are not going to be reopened. Has the minister determined which plants are not economically viable and would he care to name those? 98

May 11, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. J. MORGAN: Tape :No. 38 MJ - l The hon. Ministe~ of Fisheries. Well, Mr. Speaker, back in the month of February the Nickerson firm, with regards to their operations in Newfoundland, strictly Newfoundland, put forwarJ a proposal to both levels of government outlining their plan, the company or corporate plan of Nickersons in N2wfoundland 1 with regards to the plants they own and their plan for the future operations of these plants. The proposa.l fell on deaf ears in Ottawa.

They fell on deaf ears and I agai_n T mention that the Nova Scotian operations and request for assistance was turned down. Well,it was just two weeks ago shortl y after the provincial election in this Province that the federal government again chose to turn down requests from Nickersons for assistance for this Province, for the plants.

So as a result of that we have no choice but to sit down in earnest with the company, officials from three different departments and ministers 1and in fact I am meeting again this Thursday and Friday with the senior officials of Nickersons to continue to pursue with them all possible angles,and to the limit that we have with regards to financial resources to do what we can with getting their plan of operations,which they decided as a company, would be a plan to operate their plants in this Province. I am not going to get involved in talking about the detail of these very intense negotiations.

I am hoping to be in a position to announce the final results and conclusions of these negotiation over the next three or four days SOME HON. ~EMBERS: MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. B. TULK: Hear, hear! A supplementary ,X"r. Speaker. The bon. the member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, the truth is that the government, this government,encouraged the building and expanding of fish plants after the two hundred mile limit 99

May 11th, 1982 Tape No. 38 MJ-2 MR. B • 'rULK: was put in place. The processing licences were issued to anybody, practically anybody who applied to the government for them. MR. WARREN: Now they have doubled them. HR: TULK: Now the minister is saying that those plants are not viab.le economically. MR. WARREN: Now they are in trouble and they do not know what to do with them. MR. TULK: Is the minister now saying that the government is guilty of poor planning and these plants should not have been established in the first place and that he is about to throw them to the wolves? Is that what he is saying? SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon.gentleman for asking that question so that we can explain some of the somewhat bizarre policy statements coming from federal sources the last two or three weeks. About too much expansion in the inshore fishery was one policy statement which we dO not a­ gree with at all. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORG.li..N: And the second statement is blaming the Provinces, blaming the provincial governments for too much expansion in the processing sector of the fishing in­ dustry. Now, let us assess that, Mr. Speaker, and answer the question.

We issue processing licences to companies, and in some of these cases over the past number of years these licences were for operations to be carried out in facilities called community stages. But suddenly with the full support, and suddenly with the encouragement of federal government dollars we saw these small operations in 100

May 11, 19 82 MR. J. MORGAN : multi-million ~ollar l: .£ 1-: Ta pe No. 38 MJ - 3 community stages chanqe into ~lants,money coming in from 1 n ~

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 39 SD - 1 MR. J. MORGAN : DREE, for example, in many, many plants along the Northeast coast. We have no controls over these expansions. MR. NEJ\.RY: You licence them. MR. MORGA:.1: We do now, Mr. Speaker. We do now because we realize that the dishing out of federal dollars to expand operations without some proper pianning;which was done in the past 1 should not re-occur in the future. So our licences now to processors will have conditions attached, and one condition will be_ we will control any expansions they may plan for the future.

They have to consult with us and outline their expansion plans and we will have to approve them. But in the past the federal government encouraged these expansions by dishing out the federal government dollars from DREE. Now there may be some need to halt or to hold the processing sector of the industry.As recognized by the Premier and this government, in the past two years we have imposed a freeze on the issuance of any additional processing licences and we intend to hold that freeze,at the present time,indefinitely.

At the sane time as we see a freeze on the processing sector, we are now talking about a freeze by the federal government and a reduction; they are talking about buying back boats From inshore fishermen. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, today I had to wire a telegram to ~r. LeBlanc. It will be made known tomorrow publicl~Whv2 Because yesterday the federal qovernment agreed to give away 14,500 tons of squid SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame, shame. MR. r10RGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: - to Japan again this year. Oh, oh. 14,000 tons!

To give away 14,000 tons of squid this year to the Japanese fishermen to come and catch the fish in our waters - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh . MR. MORGAN: - and take it back to Japan - 1G2

May 11, L982 Tape No . 39 so - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! MR. MORGA-t>.i: - at the same time , Mr. Spcall.er, they are talking about there are too many fishermen . Three weeks ago they ga.:e a-..•ay G. 000 metric tons to the Cuban fishermen to come and £atca these fish in our waters . PRBM!ER PECKFORO: Right~Libcral nolicy . MR . MORG.~~ : If my arithmetic i..s right that is 23,000 metric tons of so~id to be given away this year . Squid, w!-.ich is so :.mportant to our fisherm en, being given away by a government t ha t says, ' There are too m~ ny fishermen in Newfoundland' . Mr .

Speaker, t~e fact is that this government, despite ·the fact that 1.;e hav0 very little jurisdiction over the fishing industry 1 are determined to get more because we want to see the fishing industry and the inshore fishery in particulax be a very viable industry in the future . SOME HON. MEMBE~ : Hear , hear . 103

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 40 EL - l MR. ROBERTS: ~1r. Speaker MR. SPEAKER (Russell) T~e hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBJ::RTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, 1f I can bring the minister and the - MR. S'I'AGG: The former, former, former Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: ~etter to have been a former Leader of the Opposition than a prospective nothing which is what I would say about the gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, Oh! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have a - MR. 13RETT: (Inaudible) Razor blades and Corn Flakes again this morning. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: You take the low road and we will take the high road. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: You do not know how, boy. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.Speaker. the Premier's singing is no better than his logic. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . ROBER TS: Now if I could bring the minister down - PREMIER PECKFORD: Forty-four. Forty-four seats. MR. TULK : That was not logic. MR. SPt:AKER: Order, pl.ease! MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If I could bring the minister down from the elevated realms of - MR. TULK: Federalism. PREMIER PECKFORD: You can ask a question if you wish. MR.

ROBERTS: I would be delighted to ask a question when the hoh. gentlemen opposite keefSquiet long 104

i:..· May 11, 1982 Tape No . 40 EL - 2 MR. ROBERTS: enough to get it out. Down to the re alities of St. Anthony 1 I wonder wha t the minister can tell us about the situation with the plant at St . Anth ony which , of cov.rse, as the minister knows and as the House may be aware, Hr. Speaker, is a plant that serves not only the cammunity of St. Anthony but a very large area, In fact the plant a~ St. Anthony is the only significant economic activity in at least the Northern third of the Northern Peninsula. What can the min ister tell us about it at this stage? MR.

SPEAKER (Russell ): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. M~. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I have been down to the reality in fisheries problems for the past number of years. In fact,during the last election campaign in part­ icular I campaigned a lot in fishing districts and many of them sent back PC members. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: But, Mr. Speaker, in all ser- iousness, the question that was asked is a ver y serious question because St. Anthony fish plant is indeed the lif e- blood of that community.

In fact there are communities around the coastline exactly like that where a fish plant is th e only means of employment, is the only industry, the fishin g industry, and take it away and it could mean the death of that community. So it is a very serious question so l will attempt to answer it in a very serious light. The company, Fishery Products 1 indicated to us in a letter back in January that they could not re-open the plant in St. Anthony this year because of financial difficulty. They were losing too much money at the plant.

As a result of that 1my friend in the Opposition who asked the question and the senior officials in the 1 0 5

May 11, 19~2 Tape No . 40 EL - 3 ~ffi . MOR~~ : Department of Fisheries and myself sat down with the Company and Mr . Monroe, Dennis Monroe and Gus Etchegary in par ticular, and \-le discussed what their problems were and upon agreement by the company, the Ne wfoundland Government then arranged to appoint a charcered accountant firm or a consulting firm, in this case Clarkson Gordon, and we arranged for Clarkson Gordon to go into St . Anthony to verify the information that they \-lere giving us in their le~ters and correspondence with regards to their losses .

Not that we were doubting t:he company and what they were saying . •J.'hey agreed to us doing this , appointing a chartered accounting firm . The firm that 106

May 11, 1982 MR. MORGAN: ment engaged Tape No. 41 NM -1 the Newfoundland govern- carne back with a report and they did indeed verify there were financial problems in the St. Anthony plant, they were losing substantial amounts of money, and the report indicated ~hree or four, I think it was four, possible means of resolving some of the financial difficulties. That report was provided to the federal government task force on t~e fishing industry 1 to Mr. Kirby 1 and we asked Mr. Kirby to get involved. :tn fact I met with Mr. Kirby in a meeting here in St. John's and I asked him to get involved in the St.

Anthony problem. It was obviously beyond the financial capacity of the Province to resolve the problem in St. Anthony 1for us alone to do that, and we wanted his task force and the federal government to become involved. At the time he declined to become involved. He told us he was not going to get involved in individual fish' plant problems. we were hoping a meeting would have taken place last week in Halifax involving the federal task force,but that meeting did not take place. The meeting is still being postponed by the task force, not by us.

We want them involved as soon as possible because the indications from the company as of yesterday morning at a meeting with them again -I met with Mr. Monroe, Mr. Etchegary of the company -and they have now wired a Telex to Mr. LeBlanc as of this morning, pointing out that at least one or two proposals - MR. WARREN: You are wasting time, boy. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman from Labrador may think I am wasting time. The people in St. ~thony,and I am sure the hon. gentleman, who asked the question, do not think I am wasting time. 1 n 7

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 41 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: One of the proposals put forward by the Clarkson Gordon report was to look at getting some turbot fish from the Northern waters, offshore fish, and land that fish into St. Anthony, in other words an additional supply of fish,because an inadequate supply of fish is one of the problems down in the St. Anthony plant.

This morning the company wired a Telex- I think they sent a copy, I am quite sure they did, to the hon. gentleman from the area, who asked the question, and to myself -pointing out that the turbot proposal, a proposal to take turbot from Northern waters offshore and land it in St. Anthony, would not resolve the problem sufficiently to re-open the plant.

And from where we sit now if the company feels that the turbot - additional fish - is not sufficient to open the plant, and if they are losing $2 million a year, which they indicated they are and that is verifi by the report, we are of the opinion it is very important, it is very important that a meeting take place as soon as possible involving Mr. Kirby, who is out to addresss these kind of problems in the fishing industry, involving the federal minister, and the member for the area, and the federal minister from the area. Because there· is a federal ministe ·r in the Federal Cabinet representing the St.

Anthony area - AN HON • MEMBER: That is not right? MR. MORGAN: And I am rather astounded, and I am not playing politics; I am rather astounded the minister is not pressuring Mr. Kirby 108

>.: May 11, 1982, Tape 42, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: to get more involved. Because, and I say it again, that plant means the lifeblood of St. Anthony. And I want to see Mr. Kir~y, who is going to have - professes to find, and perhaps is going to find the answers to the fishing problems in Atlantic Canaci~. Well, here is a problem. Let him resolve that one and help us work it out. I am saying that we will sit down anywhere, any place, we will co-operate fully with the member for the area, with the federal minister, with Mr. Kirby, Mr. Leblanc, and Mr.

Trudeau if necessary, to get that plant reopened as soon as possible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, if I might, Sir. MR .. SPEAKER(Russell): A supplementary, the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.Speaker, could the minister tell us,please,whether in the government's opinion -and this grows out of his answer to one of the questions put by my friend from Fogo(Mr.

Tulk), and I would say as well to remind th~ minister that it has ' been a theme in his public statements on behalf of the ministry -could he tell us whether he and his colleagues consider the plant at St • .8-nthony viable? And I ask that not from any debating or tautological standpoint but because, of course, that is the precondition which he and his colleagues have laid down to govern the provision of support to any fish plant. MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Well, Mr.

Speaker, based on ~he information that we have received from the company and Clarkson Gordon, and from our own investigations,

May 11, 1982, Tape 42, Page 2 --apb MR. MORGAN: the fact that 27 million pounds of fish went throug!]. ·th·lt plant last year in St. Anthony -ti million from the local fishermen, 7 million from the Port au Choix area'· and some of the remaining coming from the foreign vessels they had engaged in the area -27 million pounds and they still lost $2 million, I think it is obvious to anybody with any kind of a business head on his shoulders at all that it is not viable under the present conditions. Under the present conditions. We want to see more fish for that plant.

It is the largest inshore fish plant in the Province. The largest resource-short plant in the Province I would call it, because an inshore plant is usually a resource-short plant. And unless there are arrangements made by the people who control the harvesting sector -and there is no question as to who controls the harvesting sector of the fishing industry; the jurisdiction is totally in the hands of the federal government ~ unless there are arrangements made to get additional fish into St. Anthony, it is obvious, from the information we have gathered, that the plant cannot be viable under present conditions. MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): A supplementary, the han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I thank Mr. Speaker and I thank my colleagues for allowing me to pursue this, and I thank the minister. Is the minister then telling the House, Mr. Speaker, that with an additional supply of fish, in addition to the turbot -we know there are 10,000 tons metric tons of turbot now-is he of the view, Sir, that with the additional supply of fish the plant at St. Anthony would be viable? 11 0

May 11, 1982, Ta~e (2, Page 3 -- apb MR. MORGAN: ~~. SPEAKER(Russell): of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister MR. MORGAN: We~1, that is something, Mr. Speaker, I am hav~ng the officials, who are far more qualified and ~"' '-'' ::-ee:1 around many more years that I have been in the fish~~; industr•~ 1 1 1

May 11, 1982 Tape 43 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: to assess. And I am hoping, and I say it very sincerely, that because Mr. Kirby has engaged, I think, a staff now of thirty-four people 1 the last report I got thirty-four people on his staff, surely.he can find among those thirty-four employees on the task force someone who can determine whether or not the plant is viable under present conditions, whether it can be viable with an additional 10,000 metric tons of turbot or what else is required. And that is the reason why I say,very sincerely, I hope that Mr.

Kirby will get involved very, very quickly to help resolve that problem, because I feel that if he is going to engage the expertise now working with him, put them to good use and help them resolve a major problem in St. Anthony. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell} : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, one more supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you. Well, a new question if there is time for that, the same subject though, certainly. I am not interested, Mr.

Speaker, in getting into a debate with the minister about the Kirby Commission but I do wish he would answer the question instead of trying to slough everything off on Mr. Kirby's shoulders, as broad as they may be. Let me come back then. The minister has not said whether the plant would be viable with the additional supply of fish or not, I do not know the answer. Perhaps when he answers he could deal with that. Could he also indicate whether the government of the Province is prepared to do at St. Anthony what they did at Harbour Breton with the Fishery Products plant 11 2

-~e,y ll, 1982 MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER(Russell): MR. MORGAN: Tape 43 there? EC - 2 The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, we will do e ve ry- thing that we feel possible to do. Taking into consideration that both levels of government today,looking at the fishing industry,federal and provincial, we have to recognize that fine li_ne in the fishing industry which separates the social factors from the economic factors, and the social factors to date have not been taken into consideration by any programmes and policies corning from Ottawa with regard to the fish plant and fishing industry problem.

We will tie the economics into the future viability of the plant in putting forward financial assistance. At the sa~e time as ?utting forward financial assistance,we will take into consideration the social factor and the social problem. And we know, as government, that closure of the plant in Harbour Breton or the closure of the plant in St. Anthony is going to cause a very, very major social problem in these two communities. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for the Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

Well, I guess the minister is not going to tell me whether he thinks the plant would be viable with the additional supply of groundfish so I will put that aside. Now again, what Ottawa does or does not do is not something we can decide in this House but what the minister and his colleagues do is something we can talk about here, Sir. Granting that the plant is not economically viable - and I use the word 'economically' and I think we can agree on that, the minister and myself, Sir because if it were economically viable it would 1 1 3

May 11, 1982 Tape 43 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: be operating or about to operate today -we are then into the social area of which the minister speaks. Can the minister tell us, Sir, whether he and his colleagues are prepared to lend financial - I do not mean lend necessarily ~n the loan sense-to provide financial assistance if that in fact is what is required 11 4

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 44 SD - 1 MR. ROBERTS: to make that plant operate given the social necessity of it operating? MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : The hon. minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, we were pleased to put forward assistance to the plant down in Harbour Breton based on the fact at t~c same time as we put forward assistance my colleague, the re-elected member for the Harbour Breton area, sat down before the election and during the election with the officials and they put forward to us their plan as a company, a corporate plan, as to what they were going to do to make the plant more viable.

And we agreed with that plan, and based on that plan to make the plant more viable in Harbour Breton we provided flnancial assistance with the condition that the company would carry out the plans of conversion of side trawlers to long lining activity, of bringing .in foreign boats and the Faroese boats in particular, these kind of plans. Now to date we have not seen any plan of operations from the company with regards to the future viability of the plant in St. Anthony. But to answer the question directly, Mr.

Speaker, I will say again that we, this administration here, recognizing the importance of the inshore fishery and these inshore plants, we will pursue every possible angle - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. MORGAN: - with all parties concerned and including, and hopefully including - MR. NEARY: Answer the question. MR. MORGAN: You see, Mr. Speaker, it is not good enough for the federal government to say, 'We want total control of the fishing industry'.

They are saying in Ottawa, 'We want jurisdiction over the fishinq industry', but when problems arise they slough it all off on the Newfoundland government, "here,fellows, solve it." That is not good enough, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. ~~MBERS: Hear, hear! 11 s

May 11, 1982 Tape No . 44 so - 2 MR . MORGAN : Mr . Speaker , if they want to have ju risdiction and responsibility 1 let them carry out their respon sibilities. MR . NEARY : close up your offices/ coy . MR . MORGAN : We have very limited re sponsibilitie~ Mr . Speaker , but we carry out our responsibilities to the best o= our ability. SOME HON . l-1EMB£RS : Hear, hear . MR . MORGAN : And, I"II .

Speaker, in the next to.-10 or three weeks in the Province most of the inshore fish plants will be re -opened 1 as I mentioned earlier 1 all because of the effort of this government,not because of the efforts on the part of the federal government . Now it is just not good enough at a time in our history when \'le have the most serious problems ever in our fishing industry, in 1981, that suddenly the federal government decides to appo in t a federal government task force and take the bright boy out of t>\r . Trudeau 's office to become head of that task force .

All great expectations on the part of the fishermen, great expect ation on the part of the overall industry,but to date, Mr. Speaker , they have done nothing only study . And I am sayir.g it is a time for action and quit studying . The most recenc indication, Mr . Speaker, now is that that task force is n~t going to report to its government, not going to report to the federal government, until September of this year . September of this year 11 6

May 11,1982 Tape No. 45 ah-1 MR.MORGAN: the inshore fishery is practically over again 1and St. Anthony is an inshore fish plant. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Speaker, surely the processing sector is under our jurisdiction and we are going to carry out our responsibilities in that end. But , Mr. Speaker, the problem here is under federal jurisdiction. We cannot control how much fish can be caught by Fishery Products. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: We cannot control where they catch that fish in the offshore, inshore andmidshore.

We cannot control the type of boats they are going to use to catch their fish, foreign or local. These are all federal matters and we are saying in order to resolve the problem in St. Anthony it is going to take the close co-operation of both parties and both governments concerned. And all I am saying now is that we are looking forward to sitting down with Mr. Kirby 1and the minister in the federal cabinet from Newfoundland,and the member for the area,and the officials from the Departments of Fisheries, Finance and Development and doing all we can to help resolve the problem. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR,.

SPEAKER: Another supplementary. The hon. member for the Strait of Bell Isle. MR.ROBERTS: Another new question, Sir. My colleagues are obviously aiding and abetting me in this because it is important. MR. TULK: Right on! It ~s important. MR.ROBERTS: Speaking as the re-elected member for the Strait of Bell Isle,if that is to be the test, 11 7

Mq.y ll, 1982 Tape No. 45 ah-2 MR. ROBERTS: and I may add by a far bigger majority than the hon. gentleman in Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews) SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: -if that is to be the test that the minister thinks is important,may I ask him if he be good enough to tell - MR. ANDREWS : Well, I won. MR.ROBERTS: I am sorry~ The hon. gentleman on coattails wishes to say something? SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Now let me come back to the minister. Would he be good enough, please, to tell the House, Sir, what approaches his officials have made to Fishery Products?

He has told us that apparently the company has made none to him. And what approaches he has made perhaps to Mr. LeBlanc or to the people in Ottawa? Let me also add how he intends to bring Mr. Kirby in,since,as the minister has told us,allegedly Mr. Kirby or the task force he is heading is not to report until the Fall? The problem is now. I am not saying,nor has the mini~ter ever heard me say the responsibility is entirely his. But , Sir, I do say to him, I do say to him now that the responsibility in

part is his and I ask him what he intends to do about it other than to slough it of on the federal government? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, nobody in this government sloughed it off on the federal government. To date, Mr. Speaker, the federal government refuses to get involved in the problem at St. Anthony. Any action taken to date,the meetings that have taken place between the company and government is strictly with the Newfoundland government. The proposal of getting turbot from the 11 8

&... May 11,1982 Tape No . 45 all· 3 MR. MORGAN: Northern waters off Labrador to land in St . Anthony came from the Newfoundland government . That is w·here it came from . Not from Ottawa, it came from us here. The appointment of the Clarkson Gordon firm to investigate the whole matter was done and paid for by the Ne\>'foundland government. The meetings we held yesterday did not involve the federal governme~t . What I am saying, Mr . Speaker, is we are not sloughinq of our responsibil ities.

We are dealing w~~h it to the best of our ability and doing all we can,but to date there has been no involvement - and I repeat , Mr. Speaker, no involvement-of either Hr. LaBlanc or the federal government task force in the prob~em in St . Anthony, unfortunately . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear! 11 9

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 46 MJ - l MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : May I remind bon. members that there are two minutes left in the Question Period. MR. E. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, the bon. gentlem~n presumably believes that but, of course, I just want to place on the record he is wrong. There has been - MR. MORGAN: Those results are accurate. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the 10,000 tons of turbot is substantially more, it is 10,000 tons more than anything the minister provided.

Let me then, since it is the final question, ask again - perhaps the minister could answer a yes or no-quite simply, are the government prepared to provide financial support to the plant at St. Anthony, similar to the financial support which they provided to the plant at Harbour Breton, where they have agreed to underwrite the losses? MR. WARREN: Yes or no? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: I-Ir. Speaker, in fact this afternoon I had a meeting with the delegation from St.

Anthony, the mayor and the fishermans committee and plant workers committee chairman etc. and we have not received any requests for financial assistance. All the company is asking for is, 'Help us with the problem with a lack of supply of fish. We have not got an adequate supply of fish, Mr. Morgan, Mr. LeBlanc. Will you try to find solution to it?' And we are saying, 'We wish we could. We wish we could but we cannot. We do not have jurisdiction over the harvesting sector of the fishing industry.

We cannot decide what quotas will be allocated to you from the offshore Northern cod or in turbot. ' We have not gotten any proposal from Fishery Products asking for dollars, asking for any financial assistance. There is no request being made to t.he federal government for 120

May 11, 1982 Tape No . 46 MJ - 2 MR . MORGAN: financial assistance for St . Anthony plant. They are merely asking them to resolve a problem of an 1nadequate supply of fish and that is total ly in the bailiwick of the federal government but we will work with them trying to r~solve the problem . That is all, Mr . Speaker, no more ~~~~ that . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER(Russell) : Before we progress Lo the next order of business, I have been just advised that in the Galleries we also have Mayor Boyd Noel and the to•vn manager, Mr . Wes Boyles, of St. A11t .hony and the presicent of the St .

I:>.nthony Chamber of Commerce, t-tr . Roy Pilgrim . I \-.'elc ome these gentlemen to the Galleries . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Mr . Speaker : DR . COLLINS: Hear, hear ! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES '!'he hon . the Minister of F.1..nance . Mr . Speaker , pursuant to

Section 28 of the "Financial Administration Act, I wish to tab le copies of the Lieutenant-Governor Warrants issued on March 30th and covering all heads of government At the same time, Mr . Speaker, if I may, pursuant to

section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, I wish to Table a statement to me from the Comptroller Ge .neral of the Province and , together with that statement, documents in explanation of that statement , a letter [rom 12 .,

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 47 EL -1 DR. COLLINS: the Comptroller General and a minute signed by the Secretary of Treasury Board to­ gether with. further information. There are several copies of that report. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Are there any other reports? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Are there any other Reports of standing and Special Committees? PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. I~ARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 139 residents of the town of Makkovik in the district of Torngat Mountains.

I might add, Mr. Speaker, that although this petition is signed by 139 residents in Makkovik that it is also supported by the residents in Rigolet, Postville, Hopedale, Davis Inlet and Nain. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is that: "We, the people of Makkovik, wish to ex­ press our concern about the passenger service by CN Marine to our part of the coast. We have heard that CN intends to take the motor vessel Bonavista off the Goose Bay to Nain run and substitute with a smaller boat or no passenger boat at all". AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WARREN: Why do you not send it to Rompkey, boy?

If the ignoramus had a mind to close his lips, Mr. Speaker, I will continue. "We are not asking for a bigger or more elaborate boat but we do not want a smaller boat. 122

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 47 EL - 2 MR . WARREN: "The Bonavista can hardly handle the passengers now. Our petition is to have the Bonavista continu e on the service until such time a s something can adequate l y look after C'.lr people who need to travel ~ · 1\nd i t says in the final sentence, "Please give this petition se rious consideration. " Now, ~~ .

Speaker, the re has been so mu~h rambling in the past six or seven months, in part ­ icular the past election campaign by my opponent .Ln my district about the CN Marine and by the Premier's Off ­ ice about the CN Maxine,and iD fact about my colleague and myself in the House of Assembly in the last sitting , Mr.. Speaker - MR. MARSHALL: A point of order , ~tr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russ ell). : Order, please ! A point of order , the hon . the Pres ident of the Council . MR . MARSHALL: torr.

Speaker, the hen . gentleman has r ai s ed clearly a matter not the responsibi l ity of th!s House but clearly within the purview of the Fede r a l Gover nment . I quote 123

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 48 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Beauchesne, the fifth edition, It says in paragraph 683, "A petition cannot be considered if it contains a matter delegated by Parliament to another body." This, Mr. Speaker, is not even delegated by this Parliament to another body, it does not come within the jurisdiction of this Parliament.

I realize that the hon. gentleman has a great deal of trouble communicating with his fellows in the federal government on the Liberal side of the House, but I would suggest he would be much more effective by way of letter and petitioning them directly -themsevles, rather than to bring a petition into this House which does not relate to matters within the control of this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. HODDER: To the point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: I am just. amazed, Mr.

Speaker, at the innuendo and nastiness and vile of the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) opposite. But, Mr. Speaker, this petition was addressed to this House of Assembly, it was addressed to the House of Assembly for the support of this House of Assembly,and there is no doubt that this petition can be relayed through the Ministry of Intergovernmental Affairs to Ottawa and I would think, Mr. Speaker, that it would be something that this House would like to support. MR. MARSHALL: Send it to Billy Rompkey. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 1 2 4

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 48 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is the first time to my knowledge in recent times- and what I am going to say can be supported by the former Speaker of the House- the first time that I have ever seen the government House Leader raise a point 0f order on a matter of whether or not some other parliament has the jurisdiction over this. The petition, Mr. Speaker, is in order,and what we are asking this House to do is for the appropriate minister on the government side to take the petition, deal with it, whatever is necessary to be done with it.

We have had literally dozens and dozens and hundreds, Mr. Speaker, we have had literally hundreds of petitions about television, airports, post offices, all kinds of matters that fall under the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada. And this is the first time I have heard an objection from the government side on this particular matter, Mr. Speaker. I hope it is not an indication of what we are going to expect in this House in the future. Are they now going to become arrogant and dictatorial? Are they going to try, Mr.

Speaker, to completely silence the Opposition or are they going to allow democracy to carry on in this Province? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Order, please~ MR. MARSHALL: I would like to say sorrething further on the point of order, Mr'. speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: This is the clarion call you can expect from the Opposition. We are trying to conduct this Assembly relevant to the affairs of this Province. They are talking about a 125

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 49 EC - l MR. MARSHALL; matter that is within the purview of the Parliament of Canada, within the purview of the Government of Canada. If the hon. gentleman wishes to address this through the House, the way to do it is per­ haps by way of Resolution, but certainly not to petition a minister of this House and have it laid under the depart­ ment to which it relates. Who does it relate to, Mr. Speaker, The Parliament of Canada. MR. NEARY: which it relates. MR . MARSRALL : There are a lot of departments to It relates to that great defender of Newfoundland, Mr. Rompkey and his crowd. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Russell): ·Order, please! Order,. please! I would suggest that the point of order is probably a matter of a difference of opinion be­ tween two hon. members. The five minutes has expired for the presentation of this petition. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEAR Y: I rise to support - MR. HODDER: No, no. MR. NEARY: No? Tomorrow? MR. HODDER: No. He is going to - MR. NEARY: The time is expired. The hon. gentleman's time is expired? MR. SPEAKER: MR. WARREN: MR. HODDER: PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. gentleman's time has expired.

I thought you could (inaudible). No, you cannot do that. That is what I am saying about the rules. You do not know the rules. 126

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 49 EC -2 MR. NEARY: Well, I do know the rules, Mr. Speaker, The hon. gentleman's time has expired, I presume, for speaking on the petition. Is that what Your Honour is saying? PREMIER PECKJ;ORD: Do not waste your time by asking questions about his time. MR. WARREN: Shut up, boy Shut up! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.. SJ?EA,KER(Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! As the Chair understands the rules of presenting petitions, the hon. member presenting the petition has five ~inutes in which to present th~ petition.

Two other persons speaking in support of the petition are entitled to five minutes each, one from ei~her side in support of the petition. MR. NEARY: does not know the rules? Thank you very much, Hr.Speaker. Now, who knows the rules and who Mr. Speaker, I hope we are not on the threshold of having a dictatorship established in this Province, but it certainly sounds like it to us over here. The government have a large majority. They can either misuse or abuse their privileges. I hope they will use it properly."' SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposit­ ion, I am sure, is aware that he has been permitted to speak in support of this petition and so far the Chair has not heard anything in support of that petition. 'SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEAF,Y : Mr. Speaker, I deem it a very high honour indeed to support a petition so ably presented to this hon. House by my colleague, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) on behalf of the native population.

.Hay 11, 1982 Tape 49 EC - 3 HR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if hon . members are aware of it, but I would say the majority of signatures on that petition are Indians and Eskimos, the native population of this Provi nce. And, Mr . Speaker, we should take notice of that. That is something we should not sneer at, ~tt . Speaker . These people in Northern Labrado~ and in Southern Labrador cepresented by my colleague from t.o:aglc River (Mr. Hiscock), not too often they ask this Bouse to support them on anything, and it is not: too often they get very much from St. John's and from ConfeC.erat:ion Building . They are no•:l asking us, Mr . Speaker, the members of this House, especially 128

May 11, 1982, Tape SO, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: the Minister responsible for Transportation to support their request; outlined in the prayer of the petition, that C.N. Marine reconsider cutting down on or doing away with the coastal boat service from Goose Bay to Northern Labrador, especially to the community of Makkovik. That is the prayer of the petition. And, Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday in the remarks I made on opening day, when it is necessary we will take strong exception and strong objection to anything that Ottawa is doing that we do not agree with. And we do not agree with this, Mr.

Speaker, 50, therefore, we are taking strong objection to C.N. reducing the coastal boat service from Goose Bay to rilakkovik, just the same as I personally took strong objection to the coastal boat service being changed to South East Bight, and Paradise, and the other community in Placentia Bay recently, in a telegram to the concerned citizens down there. When necessary we will take a strong stand against Ottawa, and we are doing it now, Mr. Speaker.

We are doing it now, and we are showing not only members of this House, but the whole population of Newfoundland and Labrador, that when the occasion arises, when we are not happy wi·th a decision that has been made, then we are going to let Ottawa know that we disagree with them. So I hope that the Minister of Transportation(Mr. Dawe),who tried to intimidate my colleague a week or so ago, playing his little political games, instead of playing games with the people of Northern Labrador will send off a rressaae or <rrr.nnrrr> .1 meeting with the Minister of Transport(Mr.

Pepin) and strongly condemn C.N. for reducing this service, or 129

May 11 , 1982 , Tape SO, Page 2 -- apb MR . NEARY : altogether . doing away with it So, Mr . Speaker, as I said when I started , I am deeply honoured to suppo rt this petition. It is a great pleasure for me to support thi s petition . I know the needs of the people in that area, and I would hope that my hon . friend, the member for Naskaupi(Mr . Goudie) will also stand in hi s place in this House and give support to that petition . SOr-1E HON . HEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD : ~m. SPEAKER(Russell) : PREMIER PECKFORD : fully supports the petition. Mr . Speaker . The hon. the Premier.

Th is side of the House On£ortunately, we can do very :it~le about it . As the House Leader has already said, this petition deals with something that come s under federal jurisdicti on. I wonder where the Leader of the Opposition , the pre se nt temporary Leader of the Opposi~ion (Mr. Neary) was when this Minister of Transportation who sits behind me right now \"as fighting 1.\•ith Mr . Pepin over the whole question of marine services on th e Labrador coast? 130

c.'_ May 11, 1982 Tape No. 51 EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Over the last two years when we refused to sign an agreement when the Liberal Party of Newfoundland, the Liberal Opposition were asking us and begging us to sign it at all costs w1th no conditions attached .to leave the people of tlle Labrador coast without a decent passenger service, there was no sound of it then, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Not true. Not true. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: We support the prayer of this petition 1 but we say to hon. members opposite that where were the hon. members opposite when they say they will support it when it is good for Newfoundland against the federal government. Where were they on Argentia? Where they on the synchrolift? And only for the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) here,without the support of the Liberal members of this House, without the support of them, with their quiet way of going about things when the Liberal Government does something which affects this Province,we were able to get into the transportation agree­ ment on Labrador that they are forced to consult with the Government of Newfoundland before they make any changes to the marine passenger service. And Mr. Pepin and Mr. Rompkey wanted to put landing strips in Labrador· Wtwr< ' would they get the money for the landing strips?

They would get it from the boats that they would not replace on the marine passenger service on the Labrador Coast. And we said we do not agree with trade-offs for transportation in this Province, That crowd over there were quiet. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1 ~ 1

May 11, 1982 MR. WOODRmv: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Islands. MR. NEARY: SOliE HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER : Tape No. 51 EL - 2 Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for the Bay of It is going to be a qood session. Oh, oh! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Two leaders, two flags. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I would like first of all to read the prayer of the petition and secondly make a few comments on it.

"We the undersigned would like to advise our provincial government that the snow clearing equipment provided by the Department of H~ghways for our area is totally inadequate for the following reasons; Number one, a grader is not a snowplow it is designed to grade a gravel road, not plow snow. Neither will it win\] the snow back from the road. Number two, the age of the grader provided for our area is long past the age of antiquity.

Nu~her three, at least forty per cent of the operating time for the above mentioned grader is used in repairing and maintaining the roaching instead of using it for the purpose of clearing the roads. Number four, be­ cause of the inadequacy of the equipment provided there ha¥e been numerous occasions when a significant number of people in our area have been unable to or have had great diff­ iculty in reaching their places of employment during the Winter of 1981-82, causing in too many cases conflict between the employers and employees due to 13 2

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 52 NM - l MR. WOODROW: absenteeism because of road conditions in the area. Thus we wish to register our complaint with you and make you aware that it is imperative we receive proper and updated equipment inunediately .11 That comes, Mr. Speaker, from the South Shore of the Bay of Islands district. And I would like first of all to thank the minister- I think he has gone out of the Chamber at the moment. On April 14th., eight days after the election- he had of course received a copy of the petition- he wrote me a two page letter commenting on every item in the petition.

It shows that our Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), as well as all the other ministers, are really on the job. And I suppose~ that is the reason why we are here today with such a great majority. Now on the petition there are 231 names. I would like for the minister, and I am sure he will, when he is considering new snow clearing equipment for the Province, to look at the South Shore of the Bay of Islands from O'Connell Drive to John's Beach.

But I would like to say also that in spite of the severe Winter we had, one gentleman told me - a gentleman who worked on the RC ch=h in Curling for Mciver's,, he missed only one day, And on the South Shore of the Bay of Islands a lady for Benoit's Cove worked at Woolworth' s, and she did not miss any days at alL So considerincr that,the snow clearing was not all that bad. Now I would like to point out,and I say this with a lot of joy, that the roads on the North and the South Shore of the Bay of Isl?Dds are travelled extensively all the year around.

And they are travelled because the people from the South Shore of the Bay of Islands are employed at places like the hospitals, the college, the stores, the Inter-faith Horne, Newfoundland Farm Products, the hotels and may other places in the city. And I make that remark because perhaps 1 ~ 1

May ll, ·1982 Tape No. 52 NM- 2 MR. WOODROW: my district, the district of the Bay of Islands, has the least unemployment of any district in the Province. I am certainly very, very happy about that. I am delighted that I could present this petition and I would like to have it presented to the Department of Transportation.And I am sure the hon. minister, when he is looking at snow clearing equipment for the Province 1 3 4

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 53 MR. WOODROW: will look at my district 1 the district that gave me such a great majority in the election of April 6th. Thank you. so - l MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. HODDER: The hon. member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the petition which was presented, bravely I might add, by the member of Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow). MR. CALLAN: Bravely? MR. HODDER: Yes. The fact that he would dare to point out a problem with the Department of Transportation and Communications when he sits on that side. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. HODDER: But, Mr.

Speaker, my district does not adjoin the hon. member's but the- MR. WOODROW: MR. HODDER: It does, I think. on the - - perhaps in the background somewhere,But, Mr. Speaker, on the West Coast this year, and in the district which the hon. member represents and in the district I represent and in the district in which the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) represents, we had one of the worst Winters on record. But, Mr. Speaker, we also had a complete breakdown by the Department of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, hon. members can talk to any employee out there of the Department of Transportation in Western Newfoundland, and ask them what their equipment is like and they will tell you that it is antiquated. The first snow storm we hqd most of the equipment went on the blink, and from that point on there was only private enterprise had to fill in the gap at untold hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. But, Mr. Speaker, at that particular time there was equipment for about two weeks that could not be moved from the Burgeo road, there were people isolated ., .., ,..

~1ay 11 , 1982 Tape No . 53 SD - 2 HR. HODDER : for as long as three days at a time on side roads throughout Bay St . George,and if people could get to work in the district of Bay of Islands they certainly could not get to work in Bay St . George . I had personal calls from people with heart conditions; we had a child \v!lo died in Lourdes because he could not get to the hospital, He did have some doctor • s care for him, the doctor in that area, but he should have gone to the hospital, th~ child should have been taken to the hospital. We had power outages, Mr.

Speaker, whereby people were without power for two and three days at a time,and eventually the Newfoundland Light and Power had to do some of the repairs by sno1vmobiles . And , Mr . Speaker, I know and I am quite aware that when you have difficult Winters that you are going to have difficult problems and people are going to be inconvenienced, we are all inconvenienced but, Mr. Speaker, this came at a time when we 111ere on a. one shift system, 136

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 54 MJ - l MR. J. HODDER: which meant, Mr. Speaker, for the employees of the Department of Transportation, there was just one shift. So if you had a snow storm they worked twelve or thir­ teen hours,then they >ad to go home and go to sleep and -just let the snow fall,and this was where the problem started in the begining, Mr. Speaker, the one shift system, which was brought in. It is a poor way, Mr. Speaker to try save the . s Prov~nce's money by risking their lives. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that is a very, very bad uolicv and only a minister such as the Minister of Transportation(Mr.Dawe)would ever bring a policy such as that into being whereby you cut back on road clearing, snow clearing and risk and endanger the lives of the population. Because that is certainly what happened in the Bay St. George and in the Minister's own district where residents, supporters of the Minister vocally spoke up, had the courage to speak up and to criticize the Minister in his own district in his own for his snow clearing policies. The one shift system did not work, Mr.

Speaker, and I do not know if the one shift work on the Avalon Peninsula where there is less snow fall. MR. NEARY: The Minister had a crisis in his own dis.trict. MR. HODDER: The year before last when the one shift system came in there was no snow whatsoever. But this year it was a disaster,an~ it was only by the grace of God that there were not more fatalities and injuries than there were. But I will tell you one thing, Mr. Speaker.

The money the Province might have saved on the one shift system w~s certainly spent by the higher premiums in insurance which cars have gone up to now because of the number of accidents that happened throughout those snow storms and the cost to individuals for accidents and the resulting increase in insurance rates. 137

May 11, 1982 Tape No . 54 MJ - 2 MR . G. WARREN : Hear, hear ! MR . SPEAKER(Russell): The hon . the Minister of Transportation . MR. DAWE : Mr . Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the petition from my ho~ . colleague . MR . N.=:A..~Y : MR . DAWI:: : I~ is a condemnation of yourse~f. The system of snow clearing this Winte= was one that I think the Department of Transport­ ation and this government can be proud of. The condit ions, the snow conditions and the weather condi~ions this Winter were such that very few people in this Province - S0~1E HON. ME!'lBERS : Oh, oh! MH .

SPEAKER : Order , please ! MR . DhWE : - very few peop le in this Province can remember a ltlinter that had the combination of cold temperatures , high winds and the tremendous volume of snow fall. It was not only experienced in 'llestern Newfo~dland ; it was also experienced all over this Province . The type of s~stem that the hon . gentleman referred co as a one shift system, as usual he did not understand what the system implied and how it oper ate d. There was no one during a snow storm \·Tho went home because their shift was over . There was a system employed this year all over Newfoundland .. 138

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 55, Page 1--apb MR. DAWE: through the use of private contractors, through the use of our own equipment, which had a higher per­ centage of use this year because of a new maintenance manage­ ment system that was brought in, than any other previous year in the history of the department. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

DAWE: There was no question that in certain areas, all over ·the Province perhaps, that there is a tremend­ ous need for additional equipment, for new oqu ipment, and wt~ will recognize that and address ourselves to that as money becomes available for those new pieces of equipment. But as it relates to the maintenance management of the existing equipment that we have, there was not a better year in operat­ ion,· and I look forward to the next number of years being even better.

The hon. gentleman suggests, and I would caution him at making that sugges.tion, that an individual on the Port au Port Peninsula died because of lack of effort on the part of the Department of Transportation. MR. HODDER: I did not say that. MR. DAWE: I would suggest that he go back and perhaps rethink that accusation. There is no indication that that in fact was the case in any part of the Province. MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Order, please! MR. STAGG: There is no point of order, 'Jim'. MR. NEARY: Yes, there is. You have not heard it yet, so how do you know? MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I said when I was speak- ing, and the minister has misrepresented my 1 3 9

" May 11, 1982, Tape 55, Page 2 --apb MR. HODDER: words, that a child who should have been in the hospital could not get to the hospital because of the snow storm and because the roads were not cleared. MR. STAGG: different. MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Oh, that is quite Yes, it is. Oh, oh! Order, please! That appears to be, again, a difference of opinion between hon. members. Transportation. MR. DAWE: The hon. the Minister of ~r.

Speaker, on numerous occasions, in numerous letters of compliment to the department in emergency situations that were brought on by severe weather conditions all over this Province, we are - MR. SODDER: Table them. Table your references. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER; MR. CARTER: MR. DAWE: Oh, oh! Order, please! Table them. Order! I will be pleased to, Mr. Speaker, if the gentleman has the three or four hours to read the volumes of complimentary letters that we had this Winter.

The number of people who wrote the department thanking the department for the support from staff in various areas of the Province, who helped them out of very difficult situations in travelling in some Winter conditions where perhaps they never had the good sense, if you will, to listen to weather forecasts or to address themselves to the road conditions and travelled in any case. MR. PATTERSON: Right on. Right on. 1 4 0

May 11, 1982, Tape 55, Page 3 -- apb MR . DAWE; And there were many block-ups caused by vehicles being on the road when tbey were advised not to be on the road. And the subsequent compl iments and notes of thanks that carne from these people are very gratifying indeed . I •~ould sugges t to all hon. members that we will co~;tinue with ::he excellent perfo~ance next Winter, and that the snow conditions hopefully will not be as bad, and that we will continue to have a £ine Department of Transportation operating in tr~s P=ovince with the same excellent syst em of snow cleari:19 that .,.,e had thi s \'linter .

SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear ~ MR . CALLAN: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER{Russel l): The hon . the member for Bellevue . MR. CALLAN: Mr . Speake r , I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 161 1 4 1 •

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 56 EL - 1 MR. CALLAN; residents of the town of Northwest Brook, that is in Trinity Bay, just off the TCH there before you get to Clarenville. Mr. Speaker, the 161 people who signed this petition are looking for an improved road. Let me read the prayer of the petition. "We the undersigned hereby request that funds be made available in this year's Bud­ get for the upgrading and paving of the community road in Northwest Brook during the construction season of 1982:' Now, Mr. Speaker, as I said this little town is located right off the Trans-canada Highway.

As a matter of fact, a lot of the residents who live in Northwest Brook already enjoy pavement because the pavement that runs from the Trans~Canada down to Queen's Cove and IIodge's cove,towards that area, runs through part of Northwest Brook and presently, Mr. Speaker, a new intersection is being built. I do not think it is quiLe finished yet but it was started a week or more ago, a $50,000 job to put in a new intersection to Northwest Brook from the Trans-Canada Highway and so some improve­ ments are being made, Mr. Speaker, in this little town. I hope that the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) ,who just sat down and defended his snow clearing programme last Winter, I hope that that minister will find some money in this year's Budget to give the people in Northwest Brook the pavement that they are looking for. Mr. Speaker, there are now, as I understand it' there are now 2,000 miles of unpaved roads in this Province. I am happy to say, ~1r. Speaker, that of these 2,000 miles only approximately forty miles 142

May 11, 1982 Tape No . 56 EL MR. CALLA:.~ : are in the district of Bellevue, and one mile, Nr. Speaker, one mile 0f pavement would pave every in ch of the road through North west Brook . 2 So these peopl~ are not askin g for much . They are asking for one mile of pavement so tha t the dust problern,an d al! the o~her problems associated with a dirt road can be alleviated. ~I. Speaker, as I read yesterday's paper, I noticed tha~ there is a tender calJ the=e for highway and paving.

This is in Birchy Cove, from Birchy Cove to Sonavista in the Minister of Fisheries ('1r . ~1or g ar ) riding, and they are asking ':here for ':\.,elve ;;.i:o!'leters, twelve kilometers is what the Departl'lent 143 ·•

May 11,1982 Tape No. 57 ah-1 MR. CALLAN: of Transportation plans on paving in the Minister of Fisheries {Mr. Morgan) district as soon as this tender has been awarded I noticed, Mr. Speaker, in the Interim Supply Bill,which we will be debating in a short period of time 1 of the $674,901,000 that we are asked to vote for Interim Supply to take us up to March 31, 1983, of that $674 million,$122 million of that is for the Department of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, it indicates to me that there will be a good supply of money available in the Budget for the Department of Transportation and 1 Mr.

Speaker, I hope,as I said,that the one mile that the people in Northwest Brook are asking for will be included in the roads programme for upgrading and pavement when the Budget finally comes down in a couple of weeks time. Mr. Speaker, I support this petition. I have also added my name to the list of petitioners,which makes a total of 162. I support the prayer of the petition. I support the residents there in their determination and their fight to try and get an improved road and , Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be laid on the table of the House and be referred to the department to which it relates. MR.

SPE~KER {Russell): The hon. member for Donavista North (Mr. Cross). I am sorry. I thought the han. member was speaking to the petition. Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to tak~ a moment to say how proud I am to be able to support a petition so ably presented by my hon. colleague, 144

Z.1ay 11,1982 Tape No. 57 ah -2 MR . W..ARY: the member for Bellevue (Z.tr . Callan) who was not suppos~to be in this House today , ~tr . Speaker . MR . WAR..lU:N : to be here . MR . ~"lEARY: Bas Jamieson was suppos ~l The pride and joy was supposed to take c?re ~f my hon . friend . t-1R . WARREN: MR . NEARY : Nhere is Bas Jam;eson ? So "'hat happened , "'1r . Speaker? Here is my hon . colleague in presenting a petition on behalf of the citizens of Northwest Brook to have one ~ile of road paved in their area . MR . WARREN : MR . NEARY : that the - MR . WARREN : MR .SPEAKER (Russel) : MR . NEAR Y : SOME BON .

MEMBERS : What happen€'~ to Bas? ~~ . Spea~er, I do hope Where is your buddy to? Order , please! Is that you ,Ba s? Hear, hear ! MR . NEARY : I do hope, Mr . Speaker, that th e people of Northwest Brook do not have to resort to civil disobedience . I hope the people of Northwest Brook do not have to resort to the ki nd of thing that is going on now in the four communities in White Say, in Hampden and Sops Arm and Jackson's /l.rm and Pol lards Point , where people are fighting, are prote sting , have 14 5

May 11, 1982 Tape 58 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: blockaded the road in protest of government inaction on that fifty mile stretch of road in the White Bay area. I hope the people of Northwest Brook do not have to do that, and I hope all the other people in Newfoundland and Labrador who have had their hopes and expectations built up in recent weeks about all the contracts that were going to be called early and late in connection with road upgrading and road paving, I hope they will not have to resort to civil disobedience in order to get the admini ·stration to carry out their promise. So, Mr. Speaker, I am happy.

I can hardly believe my hon. colleague today presented a petition, the hon. gentleman who was not supposed to be here, and I am proud to be able to support the petition. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that we will be hearing more from the hon. gentleman in this House in the future. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Motion 1, Mr. Speaker. Motion 1, the hon. the Minister Mr. Speaker, I beg to inform the House that I have received a message from His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor. MR. SPEAKER: A message from His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor. All rise, please!

The following message is addressed to the hon. the Minister of Finance: "I, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Newfoundland, transmit estimates of sums required for the public service of the Provinc.e for the year ending the 31st of March, 1983 by way of interim supply. In accordance with the provisions of the Constitution Act 1867, I recommend 146

May 11, 1982 Tape 58 EC - 2 ~Jt . SPEAKER (Rus sell) : these estimates to ~~e House of Assembly .. Signed W. Anthony Paddon Lie utenant-Governor ." 'J'hc hon . the Ni nistcr of Finance . DR . COL LINS : Mr . Sp eaker, I move that His Honour the Lieutenant -Governor 's messaoe together with the bill be referred to the Committee of Supply . MR . SPEAKE R: Is it the wish of the House that the message along with the bill be re fer red to Committee of Supply? MR . NEARY : aonour leaves the Cha ir , ~~ .

Speaker , before your I am look ing for the procedure - I thought I had it here with me _ the pro~edure for going into Committee of Supply. Mr . Speak er , I believe the mini ster is a step ahead . I believe today all ~he minister can do is to read th~ message from His Honour, the Lieutenant -Governor . He sends a message to the Speaker , who reads it to the House, and then the Mi nister of Finan ce says , 'Mr . Speaker, I move that the me ssage together with the bill be referred to Committee of Supply ', and that ha s been done .

The pas sing of the motion sets up the Committee of ·supp ly and the order ' Committee of Supply' appears on the next day's Order Pape r, Mr . Speaker . So we have to wait until tomorrow 14 7

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 59 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: before this particular matter can appear on the Order Paper. That is what it says is the procedure given to me today by the Speaker of the House. DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: By consent. I beg your pardon? By consent? No, Mr. Speaker. We have to follow the procedure of the House. And nccording to Item 5, Mr. Speaker, the passing of the motion sets up the Committee of Supply and the order 'Committee of Supply' appears on the next day's Order Paper under Orders of the Day. I would like to draw that to Your Honour's attention. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: The hon. the President of Mr. Speaker, that is not the situation. The situation is that the hon. Minister of Finance, yesterday when the House opened gave notice of intention - gave notice of motion of moving the Committee into a Committee of Supply. It appears in today's Order Paper under Motion 1, Mr. Speaker, and that is all that is required. I refer Your Honour. to the accepted practices and procedures of this House.

For instance, at the closing of the Budget Debate, for example, there are many, many occasions - and it is the occasion and it is the event that occurs after a message is given. The message for instance, on the closure debate last Budget day, after Your Honour reads the message, the message is immediately moved to a Committee of Supply. And then, as I have the procedure here, Mr. Speaker leaves the Chair, which we now ask the hon. Speaker to do, and the Deputy Chairman takes the Chair. of Committees. It is an accepted procedure. Really, I am sort of amazed at the hon. gentleman.

Here he was harping and carping on the air all the time about the illegal expenditures 148

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 59 MJ - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: of !lDney and the fact that he is gointT to take the government to court,and now he does not want us to consider the supply when it is here. I mean,does the hon. gentleman know that East is East and West is West? He almost does not know where LaPoi le is, Mr.. Spe;lker, as it was shown during the last election. MR. S. NEARY: ~1r. Speaker, I will disregard that. The hem. gentleman is not going to intimidate me with the last part of his remarks there,but I think it is well that we should pursue this matter a little bit, Mr. Speaker.

What we are tryi1v1 to do here is to figure out what the proper procedure 1what the proper decorum of this House should be. Mr. Speaker, the ho?. gentleman is right, that yesterday the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) gave a motion that appears on today's Order Paper. That was perfectly in order. Then when the day for Interim Supply arrives 1the Minister of Finance informs the House that he has received a message from his hon. the Lieutenant-Governor. That is a fact. Your hon. just read the message. Now the next step, Mr.

Speaker, is that the passing of the motion sets up the Committee of Supply, that is perfectly in order. TheCornmittee of Supply appears on the next day's Order Paper under Orders of the Day. And that is the way it has been done in this hon. House, Mr. Speaker, up to th•' present time. SOME HON. MEMBERf: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And until the rules are changed- and the hon. gentleman has 1 4 9

May ll, 1982 Tape No. 60 SD -1 MR. NEAR~: over two-thirds majority on that side of the House. They want to change the rules, the hon. gentleman knows how to do it,-until Mr. Speaker, this is the procedure. the rules are changed, SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: And we intend to stick by the t.radi tion and the procedure of this House, Mr. Speaker • And tomorrow, w·hen we go into Committee of the Whole 1 then Your Honour can leave the Chair and we can debate the matter by the rules that are laid down for debating in Committee of Supply. MR._ SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The hon.

Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) wishes to speak to that. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I suggest it is just a di£ference1 or at least a misinterpretation here. As the hon. member states, it says, 'The passage of the motion sets up ~he Committee of Supply and the order, 'Committee of Supply'appears on the next day's Order Paper under'Orders of the Day'. It does appear the next day under Orders of the Day. That does not say we do not go into Supply, it just appears op the Paper. And it will remain on the Paper until the Committee of Supply has completed its business.

And the hon. member forgot to qo on to Item 6 then,which says that the Speaker leaves the Chair and the Chairman of the Committees takes his seat in the Committee of Supply. So it just states that once this motion is passed it goes on the Order Paper the next day,but at the same time - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! DR. COLLINS: -His Honour leaves the Chair and the Chairman of the Committees takes over. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, that is not right. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 150

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 60 SD - 2 MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Having listened to both sides of this difference of opinion,I have to agree that I tem No. 5 in the procedures does make clear what the Order Paper of tomorrow '"'ill look like . However , it .is in the custan of this Bouse that onc::e the message is read the House move into Committeta of Sl!!Jply and the motion that the Speaker do now leave the Chair is in order . MR . N:eARY~ MR . MAFSHALL: MR . NEARY: in order . MR . SPEAKER: MR. NEARY : What was that?

"':H.' mot i.on - The Speaker leav.e;; the Chair . - the Speaker 1 ea V€! s the Chair is Yes. 13ut, Mr . Spf'aker, the matte r has not appe ared on the Order Paper . MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! The Chair has made a ruling on the matter . On motion, that the House resolve itself itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr . Speaker left the Chair . 1 51 .,_ * .,.,

May 11, 1982 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : DR. J. COLLINS: MR. CHAIRMAN: Tape 61 Order, please~ Mr. Chairman. The hon. Minister of Finance. PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, just to clarify our procedure again,I gave Notice of Motion yesterday that this motion would be brought in, and as the Order Paper says the motion is: That the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Supply to consider certain resolutions for the granting of interim supply to Her Majesty. Your Honour put that question. The House assented to it, and therefore the Committee of Supply was set up.

Now in the Committee of Supply what we are doing is that we are debating the resolution. And perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I should read out the resolution. The resolution states:

BE IT RESOLVED by the House of Assembly in Legislative session convened as follows: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1983, the sum of six hundred and seventy-four million nine hundred and one thousand seven hundred dollars (S674,901,700). Mr.

Chairman, it has always been the practice in this House,and as far as I am aware the practice in all Houses that follow the British tradition, that at the same time as one debates the resolution1you also debate the bill which is circulated with the resolution. Andthat has been done and I believe all hon. members now have Bill No. 1 which is

an Act to grant that amount of supply to Her Majesty for interim supply purposes. And attached to the bill is a

schedule which lays out the amounts of money to be voted if the Committee 152

May 11, 1982 Tape 61 PK - 2 DR I J . COLLINS : and subsequently the House agrees, the amounts to be voted unde r each head of expenditure:Conso lidated Fund Services so much, Le9islative so much, Executive Council so much; Finance so much ,and so on and so forth. Now, Mr.

Chairman, in bringing in the resolution and the bill on interim supply there are certain restrictions to that,and the restrictions are that the interim supply bill should indicate that these expenditures are for ongoing purposes, what are usually called hou sekeeping purposes of government,with the exception that if they do include capital expenditures the Committee has to be inf ormed in some detail of what those capital expenditures are. 153

May 11, 1982, Tape 62, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: So on the first point, on the housekeeping expenditures, the ordinary ongoing expenditures of government, the Interim Supply Bill will cover a period of four months, from the beginning of the fiscal year, that is from the end of March of 1982 up to the end of July 1982. And that period of time was picked, four months, because one has to have enough interim supply to cover the period from the beginning of the fiscal year until such time as the rriain estimates, that is the budget itself, the main budget, is debated in this House and passed upon.

So we had to make sure that we could cover that whole interim period. And we certainly expect that the main estimates will be brought down by the end of July. It has been usually the practice in the House to cover a three month period. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) is smiling, but he knows this, he knows that we usually bring in three months. But in this case, because, of course, the House did not meet until some time after tho beginning of the fiscal year, we had to add on another month.

If we just left it at three months, that would be interim supply to the end of June, and it may be that the main estimates would not have been voted by this House by then and, therefore, we would have to bring in another Interim Supply Bill. So that is why four months was chosen. I might say - MR. NEARY: He signed one of the signatures, the hon. gentleman did. MR. CALLAN: Illegal. MR. NEARY: Illegal, yes. DR. COLLINS: The bon. member brings up the point whether the government acted properly and 154

Mal' 11, 198·2, Tape 62, !?age 2 - - apb DR. COLLINS: I am go ing to ans•·rer that briefly. Befor e going into that though , I now have to indicate to the House that there are some capital expenditures in t.'le Supply Bill and I should therefore inform the Bouse what those capital expenditures are. The total o! tho capital account expenditures is $89,591,300, a nd that represents the cash flow for the se various capital projects during the interim period that I mentioned, during the four month s to tne end o£ July .

They include, and I can give furth er details if they are required later on, but they include for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation - firstly , for certain land assemblies in the Mount Pearl - Ne\~ Towu area , t.herl.! is for the development of 85 single family lot s which will have a total cost when finished of $1.19 million , but in actual fact the expenditure for 1982 - 83 will be $540,000,of which the provincial share is $135,000 . Secondly, there is a 155 .... ~· .,

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 63 so - 1 DR. COLLINS: trunk sewer extension~ the cost of that is $500,000, the provincial share being $125,000. MH. WARREN: Where is that? DR. COLLINS: That is in the St. John's area, in the Mount Pearl - Newtown area, all these three. And then the third one is a traffic interchange that is in the Ruth Avenue - Harbour Arterial Road intersection. MR. WARREN: Is that Mount Pearl? DR. COLLINS: It is in that area. The total cost of that will be $2 million,with a cash flow in 1982-83 of just under $2 million,and the provincial share is $487,000. MR. NEARY: How much is the capital al- together?

DR. COLLINS : The capital altogether is $89 million. MR. NEARY: Well you only just gave us about $5 million there. What happened to the other $84 million? DR. COLLINS: Well I am going on to that now. I am giving you the details as I have to do when capital expenditu~es are included in the Interim Supply Bill. The second part of the capital expenditures that go to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing are for subsidized rental housing. This is for 100 subsidized rental housing units~ These are done with CMHC. MR. NEARY: Are these new units? DR. COLLINS: Yes, new units.

And there is another fifty units elsewhere and the provincial share of all of that is $427,000. So that is for the Department of Development through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. The second head of expenditure if for Porest Resources and Lands. These are for forest access roads where the expenditure will be $3.5 million and 156

May 11, 198 2 DR. COLLINS: MR . NEARY: DR . COLLINS: cott ages . MR. NEARY : i s it located? DR. COLLmS: Tape No . 63 so - 2 for cottage land development . Cottages . Where is that? That is for homes , you know , Summer homes for big shots . Where These are locate d, i f I recall and the hon . Minister for Forest ~sources and Land s (Mr. Power) may either himself give further details on this if required or I can get the details in short order - MR . NEARY: DR. COLLINS: And-I might point out - MR. NEARY: somewher e . DR. COLLINS: Okay, we will ask the han . Minister . This is on the J\valon Pen inf'ul.:l .

No doubt d·o,•m in Salmonier - that these expenditures are fully recoverab l e, these are fully recoverable from the ultimate purchasers . MR. NEARY : Who are you trying to kid? DR. COLLINS: The third head of expenditures is for Rural, Agri cultural and Northern Development 1 and it is for the construction of depot buildings and oil storage tank s in Labrador and the total expenditure there 1dl l be $6"89,300. The next head of exp~ndi tllt"C is for Transportation anc;l the total expend i ture there for these capital works is $64,B95,000 . MR. NEARY: Where is that? DR. COLLINS: By and large these 157

:1ay 11, 1982 Tape 64 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: were the pre-tendered projects and the pre-tendcriny was done to give the construction industry an early opportuntty to get their tender in so that these works can be undertaken as early as possible in the new fiscal year. MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS : Where is the work being done? The $64 million-odd dollars include Trans-Canada Highway work projects totalling $16 million, DREE highway developments totalling $11,297,000, improvements and construction- roads -this is all provincial- $17,289,000. MR. NEARY: Where? DR. COLLINS: Province. MR. NEARY: DR.

COLLINS: Various roads around the Could we get a list of them? I have details. If you want details, you know, those are the details 6f al1 this. MR. KEARY: DR. COLLINS: May we have copies of them? The next one is bridges and causeways for a total of $9,400,000; the next one is ferry terminals totalling $4,370,000. MR. NEARY: You are stalling now. DR. COLLINS: That is an amount that will later be reclaimed or claimed from federal sources. MR. NEARY: All federally funded projects. DR. COLLINS: The next one is landing strips.

The total expenditure on landing strips is $5 million but in 1982 - 1983 the cash flow will be $1 million. MR. NEARY: Yes, but you are stalling on them now. DR. COLLINS: The next one is vehicles and equipment purchases, $4 million and, finally, urban transport, the amount there is $1,548,000. MR. N3ARY: What is that for? 158

May 11, 1932 Tape 64 ~;c - 2 DR . COLLINS: That is for urban transport '~hich wi ll be partly reclaimed . MR. ~TEARY : Sounds like urban cowboy . DR. COLLINS: - from the federal government and from municipal governme nts. The next head of cxncn cliture is f or Fisheries for ~he constr uction and ~cqu isition of fishermen's facilities in various parts o! the Provinc e, and the tota l amount there is $448,00 0 . M..~. NEARY: 'Where? DR . COLLINS: In various parts of the rrovinc-C' . MR. NEARY : Where? Where? May we have the book? DR. COLLINS: There are many, many areas of the Province . MR.

NFAT~.V · Can '"e have the details? ~m . HODDER: May we have the book? MR. WARREN: No . DR. COLLINS : 'rhc next hcadinq .i.s I\ducat lon . Thi s is for the building and equipping of schools, a total expenditure there of $13 million . MR. NEARY: Grade XII? DR . COLLINS: Under the next heading i s Health , community clinics . The tota l expendit~re there is $1 . 5 million . MR . NEARY : Where? MR . WARREN: How much federal money? DR. COLLINS: That is done under · DREE and there will be a later - SOME HON. Mfu~ERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY : Oh , all federal money . DR.

COLLINS: We know there is a DREE programme go3:nq on. Is the hon . member just - have you just heard t hat there are DREE programmes? They have been going on for many yeaxs and we have supported DREE programmes . 15~

May ll, 1982 Tape No. 65 MJ - l DR. J. COLLINS : We have asked the federal government to make sure that they do not go back on the DREE program. We are much in favour of DREE programs. We find them very useful to build up the social infrastructure of the Province, and if the hOn. member wishes further details about the whold DREE project, then we can get him a pamphlet on that. MR. WARREN: Yes, why not? Why not? DR. COLLINS: So that DREE program for community clinics there is $1.5 million· in 1982 and 1983, and, of course, DREE programs usually are 90/10, as this one is.

Municipal Affairs is the next heading and this is for residential and industrial servicing, $4,185,000. MR. NEARY: Where? DR. COLLINS: That is in Labrador. - - - MR. WARREN: Yes. Labrador, yes. MR. NEARY: And that is federal funds? MR. HISCOCK: Could we have a breakdown for Municipal Affairs? MR. TULK: How about Fisheries? DR. COLLINS: Yes. Under Municipal Affairs this is for water and sewer systems. So we have all the information on it just ask me we can get it. MR. WARRE N: Yes. Where? DR. COLLINS: This is for Davis Inlet, Phase 1. It will be $150,000 there. MR. NEARY: Oh. Federal, federal. DR.

COLLINS: Forteau, Phase l - MR. NEARY: Federal. DR. COLLINS : - $1,100,000. Hopedale, Phase l, $1,227,000 . L'Anse au Clair, Phase 1, $1,210,000. L'Anse au Loup, Phase 1, $825,000. My God bless us we are doing an awful lot 160

May 11 , 1982 DR . J . COLLINS: MR. WARREN: aw£ul lot, thanks to Otta\>la . MR. S . NEARY: MR. HODDER: Labradorians. DR. COLLINS: Tape No . 65 MJ - -;_ for Labrador , you knov1. Yes, Sir . You are doing an Thanks to Uncle Otta\•a . 'ile are doing an avrful lot for Mary's Harbour. Phase l, $800 , 000, another part of the Mary's HarboUI pro ject, $450,000 . MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: St . Modeste $200,000 . MR . .t-."BARY: DR. t:OLLINS: MR. NEARY: you going to spend? MR. TtJLK: OR. COLLINS: MR. WA..~REN: Thanks to Ottawa . Rigolet, Phase 1, $100,000. West And Black Tickle $125,000 . Thank you Uncle Ottawa .

For a total amount - And how about you r hO\v much <.~re Wnere is your money? For a total amount - Yes. DR. COLLINS: - of $6,187 , 000, and in this year the cash flo w f r om that will be $4 , i85,000 . MR. G. WA.~REN: i s it? DR. COLLINS: MR. NE.ARY: MR. WARRR.~ : dollars . DR. COLLINS: are 90/10 . $400 million coming from Ot~awa $4,185,000 . Bow much federal? How much Provincial? Four hundred and some thing mill io n Those are DREE program s. Those MR . NEARY.: In other ~;ords, t hat $400 million is all federal money . I s that what you are saying? DR. COLLINS: $4,185,000 . ~ffi. NEARY: $4 , 1 85 ,0 00 . 161

May 11, 1982 DR . J . COLLINS : MR . NEARY : DR. COLLINS : I 0 per cent is provincial. MR . G . NARREN : Tape No . 65 Under the DREE program . All federal money . MJ - 3 No, 90 per cent is federal, Ottawa money, $12 million. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! DR . COLLINS: Mr . Chairman, any furthe: details that are requested I will certainly attempt to get, but those are the main points about that. MR . NEARY: Could we have a copy of these details? DR . COLLINS: these that you \vish. MR . NEARY : copy of them . I can qive you any details from No, we would like to have a 162

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 66 IB-1 DR. COLLINS: No, I am not tabling these. These are documents that I have so that I can get any details you wish from these. MR. NEARY: So you are refusing to - DR. COLLINS: I would like now, Mr. Chairman, just to refer to the whole question of these special warrants that His Honour the Lieutenant Governor signed at the end of March. On March 30th,actually. There was some question raised as to the legality of this. Of course the Premier and myself, we made statements when that question arose saying that this was perfectly in order. It had hePn clnne on prior occasions.

There was a precedent for this, it having been done in 1960 and again in 1972. So there is nothing weird or wonderful about it. The basic reason for it is that the hon. the Premier has a right at any time to call for dissolution of the House. That is the parliamentary tradition. If supply has not been voted, that does not prevent the hon. the Premier from going to the Lieutenant-Governor and requesting a dissolution of the House. That is his right. That overrides any other consideration. MR. CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD) : I would like to remind the hon. gentleman that his time is up. DR.

COLLINS: Well 1 I can give further details on another occasion. MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize the hon. member I wish to bring his attention to Standing Order 118 (5) which suggests that he has fifteen minutes and every other speaker from that time will have ten minutes to speak,in turn. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: And as often as we want. And as often. 163

May 11, 1982 MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD) : MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER : Tape No. 66 lB-2 As often as we want. The hon. member for Port au port. And as long as we want. Mr.Chairman, I would like to refer the House to a comment which was made on March 27, 1981, when the Interim Supply Bill was being debated on this side of the House and the government side of the House wanted to get the bill through as quickly as possible. And the government HouseLeader, Tape No. 712, Page 2033 in Hansard, s~id that if April lst. comes, Mr.

Chairman, and this Interim Supply is not passed 1 then at that particular period of time the government has not the power to spend money. MR. WARREN: MR. HODDER: MR. WARREN: MR. HODDER: Who said that? That was the House Leader opposite. Is that right? That was said on March 27, 1981. Mr. Speaker, I notice that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) 1 when he tabled special warrants earlier, did not read from them as he is wont to do if there is something that is worth reading,perhaps,for his side. But I think it should be read into the record of the House, the letter from the Comptroller General of Finance, Mr.

B.G. Carew MR. WARREN: What did he say? MR. HODDER: - who said, "I have received a copy of the Lieutenant Governor's warrant, dated the 30th. of March, 1982 1 in the amount of $290,672,300. In accordance with the requirements of the Financial Administration Act, 1973, I am writing to inform you that I must decline to issue money out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund pursuant to the above noted warrant 164

May 11, 1982 Tape 67 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: on the grounds that there is no legislative authority thereto. MR. WARREN: Wow~ They wanted him to spend it. MR. HODDER: His signature is attached to that letter. MR. WARREN: Do you mean the minister wantec to spend that money? MR. HODDER: MR. WARREN: MR. HODDER: Now, Mr. Chairman, - Well, well, well. - there is no doubt that this bill will be passed by this House ,because the government has the overwhelming majority to do that. But there is a principle here which has been ignored,and that is that the Legislature must approve government spending . Because, Mr.

Chairman, that is why we have a Parliament. Otherwise, we may as well do away with the institution. DR. COLLI·~ ·s: Would you allow me - MR. HODDER: You had your ten minutes, T undt~rsto:md it is back and forth . DR . J. COLLINS: It might help if you allm ··-~1d me to expand on a statement but, however, carr y on if you wish. MR. HODDER: Now, Mr. Chairman, it is a vital and fundamental rule of this House and these rules are not to be tampered with. And what we are doing here in this interim supply bill is asking for money already spent by special warrants.

Now the government knew, the Premier knew when he called the election, he knew when he was going to call the election,and he knew as well that this problem would arise and he deliberately broke a rule of the House. Now at least when it happened before, and it has happened twice since this government has taken power ,in 1972, at least the Finance Minister t~~, the then Mr. Crosbie,had the honour to get up and say to 165

May 11, 1982 Tape 67 PK - 2 MR . HODDER: the House, and there is written comment here to that effect, that he apologized to the House, that they had broken the law. He at least adllli tted that in 19 72, but not so this time, Mr . Chairman . But the special warrants were illegal in that there was no legislative authority to issue pub:ic money . Authority has to be given by the Legislature If the Legislature is dissolved after April 1, and after April 1 there was no Legislature, ~t is a breech of the parliarnental process, and the Legislature is the guardian of the people of Newfoundland. The time before, Mr.

Chairman, when the government did this very same thing 1 th e £ormer Compt roller and Deputy Minister of ri~auc e - I believe it was Mr . Dirk Peper. MR . NEARY : Yes . MR . HODDE~ : He protested,as did Mr . Carew at this time, and refused to issue the public money out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund 166

May 11, 1982 Tap e No . 68 IB-1 MR. HODDER: because there had been no legislative authority. And, of course, as happened this time,the Minister of Finance, overruled him in a letter. And the same thing is applied here. The Financial Administ rat ion Ac t states that the government can obtain special warra n~ s to cover extraordinary spending in a fiscal year fr om M arch lst. to April 31st. But when the fiscal year ends government cannot spend public money in the new financial year without Interim Supply or a provincial budget. Both must be approved by this Legislature. And

Section 32 of the Financial Administration Act is meant only to cover emergency situations for unforeseen spending within the financial year. Mr. Chairman, this has been a disregard and it has to be said by this side of the House. The democratic process has been disregarded and it is an abuse of public spending. And it is not, Mr. Chairma n , done in other jurisdictions. And in this case the Comptroller, Mr. Carew,sought legal advice and prepared a statement and presented it to the House of Assembly. 1'1r.

Chairman, the practices in other jurisdictions across the country: In British Columbia now 1 I do not have them all but I have some- in British Columbia,according to officials in that jurisdiction, there is nothing in place to cover spending between the date of an election and a new fiscal year. There is a buffer zone of ten days to permit some interim supply by Lieutenant Governor's warrants, for ten days only and that is all. But more important, Mr. Chairman, in that jurisdiction, is that the government monies havenever been spent, ever, without approval in the new fiscal year. This has never been done.

In Quebec they operate under a different system whereby notice of funds the government would be spending,known as credits,during an election ca mpaign , must be Presented before March 31st., at least one-third of the expected spending 1 or the government, by law, cannot 167

May ll, 1982 Tape No. 68 IB-2 MR. HODDER: spend any money. And in Nova Scotia,again where this has never happened, the Cabinet normally has the authority to spend up to half of what has been voted the previous year by the Legislature. So there is a safeguard there. 168

May 11, 1982 Tape 69 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: But, Mr. Chairman, this artDunt of $674,901,700 has been spent illegally by this government. Now, Mr. Chairman this bill will have to pass. You know, this bi~l wi:l be passed and government will get its supply but, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if bon. gentlemen opposite realize - I do not care if it was done in 1960 or 1965, I do not knmv the circumstances then. I do know the circumstances when it was done by this government in 19n. MR. CALLAN: Two wrongs do not make a right . MR. HODDER: And, Mr. Cha,irm?..n! it has been done again. But what I see about it this time·, Mr.

Chairman, what shocks me this time is it was done deliberately, it was done with full knowledge,with absolute and tote1l disregard of this House of Assembly, with absolute and total disregard of the people of the Province, and absolute and total disregard of the legislative process or, Mr. Chairman, of the safeguards which are entrusted into the hands of this government and entrusted into the hands of the elected members who serve in this House of Assembly. Mr. Chairman, when the fiscal year ends - Mr. Carew has said it, Mr.

Perer said it before - when the fiscal year ends the government cannot spend public money in the new financial year without the Interim Supply or a provincial budget, both of which must be approved by this Legislature. And, Mr. Chairman, I can see where there could perhaps be sometimes circumstances where the government would find themselves in a bind, but this time it was premeditated, Mr. Chairman, a total absolute disregard of one of the privileges of this House, I do not think, Mr. Chairman, that that should be allowed to be forgotten . I do not think it should happen again, Mr.

Chairman, and it should not have happened now. 169

May 11, 1982 Tape 69 EC -2 MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, I will be on my feet again to say a few words on this matter. t•1R. C:iAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLI!:'S: Ml:. Chairman, there is usually a to and 4o in the debate in Committee so that is why I rise to my xeet at the present time. I 1-1as getting into an explanation of 1o1hat happens at the end of the year because it is qu.ite leaal, quite straight­ forward, quite according to precendent. I was getting into an explanation of that but my time ran out and the hon. member then elected to give his version of it which is incorrect. 170

May 11, 1982, TaPe 70, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: I suggested to him that if he wished me to complete my statement on the matter he might not wish to make his remarks. But he decided to make them anyway. Now, I am going to come back to that in a minute , but just before doing that I would just like to say to the hon. members of the Committee something that I think most know. Possibly some of the newly elected members may not know this, but in debating interim supply the time for this debate comes out of the time allotted, according to our standing rules, the time allotted tu debating the main estimates.

There are seventy-five hours allotted for debating the main estimates. So the time that we spend on interim supply will diminish the time, to the extent that we spend on interim supply, from the debate on the main estimates. So the time that we spend on interim supply will diminish the time,to the extent that we spend on interim supply,from the debate on the main estimates. And I think it might be an assistance to the hon. members of the Committee if I indicated now when we expect budget day to be. In other words, when the main estimates will be introduced into the Committee.

Subsequently the budget will be voted on by hon. members of the House. We are anticipating now that budget day will be Thursday, May 27. Now, getting back to the points that the hon. Opposition House Leader (Mr. Hodder) brought up. There were a certain number of inaccuracies in what he said. Firstly he brought up ~he point that sometime 1as~ year in Hansard a remark 1 71

- May 11, 1982, Tape 70, Page 2 --aph DR. COLLINS: \vas made by the Government Rouse Leader that after midnight on March 31, if interim supply was not passed there would be no authority to spend money. And that is perfectly correct. But he forgot to mention that when the House is sitting, special warrants cannot be issued by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. Special warrants for that purpose can only be issued when the Rouse is not sitting. So the bo~o circumstances were different. Secondly he said that Mr. Crosbie 1 in 1972 I think it \olas 1 broke the law. Well, I am not here to defend anything that Mr.

Crosbie did. All l know is that that is incorrect. Mr. Crosbie did not break the law, he went according to the Statutes of this Province, that the matter was subs.equently reported to th.e House as the Statutes require and th.e House unanimously agreed with the actions he took. So there was no question of breaking the law any more than there \>10.S a question that this administration broke the law on this occasion. Just c. small point, but I think that it is an important point. On this occasion the hon. Opposition Bouse Leader said that I overruled the Comptroller General. I do not have the 172

May 11, 1982 Tape 71 PK - 1 DR. J . COLLINS: authority to overrule the Comptroller General,and I did not overrule him. MR. ~mARY: You and your colleagues. DR. J.COLLINS: The Treasury Board,which is a Committee of Cabinet,considered the points brought up by the Comptroller General and,having considered those points. Treasury Board overruled the Ccmptroller General. It was not the Minister of Finance,because he does not have the authority so to do.' The hon. Opposition House Leader (Mr. Hodder) then brought up the practices in other jurisdictions.

These were quite interesting actually, but they are totally in;:-elevant. I mean, we go q.ccording to the Statutes in this Province. Quebec can have whatever Statutes it wants and go a certain way as can British Columbia, but we are governed by the Statutes in this Province. And it is interesting to note that even in British Columbia they do have an authority during that buffer time, that ten day buffer time,they do have authority to spend beyond the end of the fiscal year in like circustances to the occasion that arose here. Now as I was saying in giving my initial explanation,the hon.

Opposition House Leader misses the fundamental point here. He said that the hon. Premier was wrong in calling the election because it would interfere with interim supply. That is the fundamental misunderstanding he has.

The Premier has unfettered right, he has a totally unfettered right to ask for a dissolution of the House at Qny time, He can do it on Christmas Day, he can do it if interim supply is in or if it is out, he can do it on Friday afternoon, he can do it when he is on holiday. ge. can do it any time he wants, he has an unfettered right under the British Parliamentary syste~ So there is absolutely nothing incorrect or improper 1 7 3

May 11, 19B2 Tape No. 71 PI< -2 DR. J. COLLLNS: or out of order for the hon. Premier to go down to Government House and ask for dissolution of the House. He is totally in order, totally in the British tradition. And lf the hon. me~er opposite wishes to question the British Parliamentary tradition, you know, that is no~ my problem. But I wish him not to, you knov;, perpetrate that misunderstanding on the people of this Province. So going on ~lith the explanation it was decided by Cabinet that special warrants should be issued and the various ministers who requested - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! DR.

COLLINS: Recommended. Recommended I said, recommended by Cabinet. MR. NEARY: Oh recommended is it? DR. J. COLLINS: It t'las indicated by the various ministers who were requesting funds that these were essential, that unless these funds were given there would be serious harm done to the public good. When that recommendation was made to His Honour, His Honour quite properly signed the special warrants. 174

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 72 IB-1 DR. COLLINS: These special warrants then went to the Comptroller General so that the amounts of money could be given from the Consolidated Revenue Fund to the various departments. Now, I hope there is no misunderstanding on that point. There was money in the Consolidated Revenue Fund for that purpose . You know, we were not broke or anything like that. When tpe Comptroller General received the special " warrant,as he had every right to do under

Section 29 of the Financial Administration Act, he indicated that there was no legislative appropriation for this purpose and he had to report that to Treasury Board. Now, I am going to read out just

Section 32, not word for word, but just the essence of

Section 32 of the Financial Administration Act. And it reads as follows, "If the Comptroller General declines to issue public money on grounds that there is no legislative authority, upon report to the board, the board may order payment to be made". In other words, it is laid out in our Statutes in the main Statute relating to this area, that if such and such a thing happens it is quite in order, quite legal, quite according to the requirements of our Statutes of our laws, that such and such a thing be done and that is exactly what happened.

Now, the Financial Administration Act then goes on to say that in circUmstances like that the Comptroller General shall prepare a statement related to the issues made over his protest, deliver it to the minister for tabling in the House of Assembly within fifteen days of the next Assembly. And, of course, that is what he did. He gave me a report on it and, I, of course, tabled them within fiftee~ days but certainly not at the end of the fifteen days, I tabled them at really the first opportunity. I suppose I could have tabled them yesterday,but yesterday was a sort 175

May ll, 1982 Tape No. 72 IB-2 DR. COLLINS: of formal event in the House. So I elected to delay unti_l today and they were table¢! today. So it is quite in order what happened. And it might be interesting to point out that in exactly similiar circumstances in l972,when the same sort of report 1-1as made to the House, the following comment was made by ·the Leader of the Opposition at that time, who was then the Leader of tbe Liberal Party and who was the Leader of the Opposition in this House, and it is the hon. member for the Strait of Belle :sle (Mr. Roberts).

And this is a direct quote from Hansard at that time in exactly simiUar circumstances. He says, "In this case1as the minister has said,it wouldbe quite unreasonable not to proceed to overrule the Comptroller's objections. And, of c:::ourse,there 176

May 11, 1982 Tape 73 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: was unanimous agreement at that time,that the procedures were followed .that that

section was put in the Financial Administration Act to deal with circum stances exactly like this. That was what it was put there for and, of course, he fully agreed with it an~ the House passed the report unanimously . I am sure that that is the case here too. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, let me say at the outset that this administration is taking on all the airs of a fascist regime. It is not a benevolent dictator­ ship, it is a fascist regime. Mr. Chair man, the bon. the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) gets up and lectu.t:t.'ti to the House and tries to lead us to believe that everything was sweetness and light and that everything was done above­ board,when in actual fact the bon. gentleman knows what the government did, what the administration did was illegal­ And the bon. gentleman is now asking this House to approve an illegal act on the part of the administration. Mr. Chairman, the Comptroller of the Treasury refused to give the administration supply and the Comptroller of the Treasury was overruled by Treasury Board. And Treasury Board is a sub committee of Cabinet.

I hope members have that fixed in their minds. Treasury Board is ministers. MR. 'ilARREN : MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: Oh! Oh! It is a sub committee of Cabinet. Is the House Leader on it? MR. NEARY: It is an elite clique down on the 8th Floor of this building. MR. WARREN: Who are they? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Chairman, the bon. gentleman says it was in order, it was according to the 1 7 7

May 11, 1982 Tape 73 EC -2 MR. NEARY: Statutes. Mr. Chairman, I am seeking to get a constitutional opinion and some expert legal advice on

Section 32 of the Financial Administration Act which is the

section that the hon. gentlemen used to carry out this devious thing that they did, this devious plot.

Section 32, Mr. Chairman, of the Financial Administration Act merely means this, that Lieutenant-Governor's warrants for ex~raordinary spending, for unforeseen spending, spend.:.ng that was unforeseen when the estimates ~vere passed in the House, special warrants can only be approved in that fiscal year. Once you go past the 31st of March, 1982, 178

. ~ May 11, 1982 Tape No. 74 ~\J - I MR. S. NEARY: there is no parliamentary authority for spending public funds. And that is where the wrong

interpretation is put on Section32 of the Financial Administration Act. They have twisted the Act to suit themselves, Mr. Chairman, and so I hope nobody is under any illusion of what we are being asked to do here. We are being asked to approve an illegal act on the part of the administration. And, Mr. Chairman, theyhave the majority to do it, they have forty-four, we only have eight. It flies in the face of parliamentary tradition, it is unconstitutional accordinq to the people that I have spoken to so far. And the Comptroller of the Treasury said, 'No, do not do it.

You are not allowed to do it without the approval of the Legislature.' Now, Mr. Chairman, I am going to elaborate on that before we finish with the Interim Supply Bill. But we only have ten minute slots in order to speak . I am going to allow my colleague our spc_'kc'sman on Finance,to elaborate on this. But I also want to say this, that the bon. gentleman in his innocent way gets up and pretends that everything is hunky-dory. He makes no reference to three very important facts, Mr. Chairman. Number one, that first of all this is a record amount, this is record Interim supply.

It is a record Interim Supply Bill fact number one. Fact number two is that it is the first time to my knowledge, .that capital expenditure is included in an Interim Supply Bill. Mr. Chairman, when you ask for Interim supply in this House you me~ely ask for sufficient supply onto Her Majesty to pay your bills and to provide essential services. This is the first time to my knowledge, Mr. Chairman, that a government has asked for money for capital expenditures. The minister made no mention of that. And the third point is that we are asked to approve an Interim Supply Bill when we do not have the 1 7 9

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 74 MJ - :.:! MR. s. NEARY: Auditor General's Report tabled in this House. The Auditor General, I would assume,had his report ready for Tabling in this House before the election was called,and if the House had carried on for three days, Mr. Chairman, under the Financiai Administration Act 1 the Auditor General's Report 1BD

May 11, 1982 Tape No. 75 IB-1 MR. NEARY: would have had to be tabled in this House. So I can only assume that the Auditor General's Report has been in the hands of the.Minister of finance (Dr. Collins) since back before the election was called, back in March. And the hon. gentleman is withholding that valuable piece of information, that very important document from this House while we are debatinq interim supply. We should have the Auditor General's Report, Mr. Chairman, laid on the table of this House before we allow this Supply Bill to pass. That is our right.

It is the right of members of this House to have that report. What are they trying to hide, Mr. Chairman? DR. COLLINS: What report? MR. NEARY: The Auditor General's Report. The hon. gentleman should stay in his seat while I am speaking. The hon. gentleman,! am assuming- I can only assume from my knowledge and experience in this House that the hon .. gentleman had the Auditor General's Report prior to the election. Is that correct? Mr. Chairman, does the hon. gentleman have the Auditor General's Report now? DR. COLLINS: Yes. MR. NEARY: He does.

Well why does the hon. gentleman not put it on the table so we can have i.t while we are debating interim supply? MR. WARREN: r~ is chicken. He is chicken. MR. NEARY: Well bring it in because, Mr. Chairman, we have no intention of letting this Interim Supply Bill pass before we have the Auditor General's Report That has always been the tradition and the custom of this House. 1 a 1

May 11, ::.982 Tape No. 75 IB-2 MR. NRJ\RY: 1f the House had carried on for three days before the election, the hon. gentleman would have had to lay the Auditor General's Report on the table within a week. AN RON. MEMBER: No. MR. NEARY: Within three days, Mr. Chairman. DR. COLLINS: No, that is not true. MR. NEARY: Well read the Financial Administration Act. The hon. gentleman would have had to put the Auditor General's Report on the table. And here we are two months later, Mr. Chairman. The hon. gentleman is sitting on the Auditor General's Report I would say, for the last six or seven or eight weeks.

And here we are, Mr. Chairman, asked to give the government record interim s·J.pply and the hon. gentleman does not have the decency or the honour to lay on the table of this House the Auditor General's Report so that we can take a look at it to see what is inside the covers. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD) : A point of order. MR. NEARY: A point of order! Whatever I s~id that is unparliamentary I take it back. MR. MARSHALL: I would like to draw your attention t what the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) said. MR. NEARY: I take it back, Mr. Chairman. MR.

MARSHli.LL: I am on a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is impugning the honour of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and it is contrary to the rules of the House. He knows it. He has been here long enough. And he should withdraw these accusations. MR. NEJ\RY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if it makes the han. qentleman feel better, I withdraw. 182

·~ May 11, 1982 Tape ~o. 75 IB-3 MR . MARSHALL: Not hecausn it ~u~es me feel better . MR. ROBERTS: No, 11·3causC' oF the rules. MR. NEARY: I want to carry on with my few remarks. MR. CHAI~AN (AYLWARD) : The hon. member has withdrawn his remarks? 1 B 3

May 11,