2006 Legislative Session: Second Session, 38th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

WEDNESDAY, MAY 10, 2006

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 11, Number 5

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Page

Tributes

Vancouver Giants

Hon.

G. Campbell

Introductions by Members

Introduction and First

Reading of Bills

Crystal Meth Prevention Act,

(Bill M207)

Brar

Statements (Standing

Order 25 B )

Richmond emergency services

awards

Yap

Colony Farm Regional Park

Thorne

Industry Training Authority

Rustad

Cowichan Lake Community

Forest Cooperative

Routley

Korean Heritage Festival

Bloy

Hepatitis Awareness Month

Karagianis

Standing Order 81.1

Completion of legislative

agenda

Hon.

M. de Jong

Farnworth

Oral Questions

Acute care beds at Kelowna

General Hospital

James

Hon.

G. Abbott

Conroy

Emergency services in health

care system

Cubberley

Hon.

G. Abbott

Acute care beds at Royal

Inland Hospital

Wyse

Hon.

G. Abbott

Worker safety at service

stations

Puchmayr

Hon.

M. de Jong

Sather

Private lodges and resorts in

provincial parks

Simpson

Hon.

B. Penner

Reports from Committees

Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical

Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills, second report

Horning

Committee of the Whole

House

Education (Learning

Enhancement) Statutes Amendment Act, 2006 (Bill 33)

Horgan

Hon.

S. Bond

Coons

Hon.

M. de Jong

Chudnovsky

Point of Order (Chair's

Ruling)

Committee of the Whole

House

Education (Learning

Enhancement) Statutes Amendment Act, 2006 (Bill 33)

(continued)

Horgan

Hon.

M. de Jong

Point of Order (Chair's

Ruling)

Committee of the Whole

House

Education (Learning

Enhancement) Statutes Amendment Act, 2006 (Bill 33)

(continued)

Horgan

Hon.

M. de Jong

Chudnovsky

Point of Order (Chair's

Ruling)

Committee of the Whole

House

Education (Learning

Enhancement) Statutes Amendment Act, 2006 (Bill 33)

(continued)

D. Chudnovsky

Hon. S. Bond

N. Macdonald

G. Coons

A. Dix

J. Horgan

H. Bains

Second Reading of Bills

Tenancy Statutes Amendment

Act, 2006 (Bill 27)

Hon.

R. Coleman

Routley

Conroy

Karagianis

Kwan

Fraser

Bains

Fleming

Horgan

Hon.

R. Coleman

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of

Transportation (continued)

Chudnovsky

Hon.

K. Falcon

Fraser

Wyse

Estimates: Ministry of Health

(continued)

Wyse

Hon.

G. Abbott

Kwan

[ Page 4633 ]

WEDNESDAY, MAY 10, 2006

The House met at 2:03 p.m.

Prayers.

Tributes

VANCOUVER GIANTS

Hon. G. Campbell: I have two introductions today — one comment and an introduction.

I'm sure members of the Legislature who were watching the news last night will recognize that for the first time ever in their history, the Vancouver Giants have won the Western Hockey League championship. Now, I know….

K. Krueger: Go, Blazers, go.

Hon. G. Campbell: Could we have some decorum in the House, Mr. Speaker? [Laughter.]

I was going to say that I know they've been led in the past by teams from Kamloops, Cranbrook and Prince George. But I think today we should congratulate the Giants for the exceptional job they did of sweeping their series and congratulate Gilbert Brule for being awarded the series' most valuable player, and the entire House should get behind the Vancouver Giants as they go to the Memorial Cup to win the Memorial Cup for British Columbia.

Introductions by Members

Hon. G. Campbell: It's my pleasure today to introduce a group of students from Hollyburn Elementary School. Accompanying these 24 students are Naomi Chard, Nancy McHarg, Heather Tak, Courtney Campbell and their teacher Cathy Campbell, who also happens to be my sister-in-law. She informs me that they are one of the brightest grade five classes in British Columbia, and they inform me that she is one of the best teachers in British Columbia.

I hope they will all learn from engaging us and watching us in the House today, and I hope we'll make them welcome.

[1405]

J. Brar: I have three very special guests from the Sechelt Indian band. We have Chief Stan Dixon, we have Councillor Garry Feschuk, and we have Tom Paul. I ask the members to please make them feel welcome.

Hon. C. Richmond: I have a couple of introductions today. First of all, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to introduce a friend of many, many years: Bernie Smith. He had a long and colourful career with the Vancouver police department. The CBC did a profile on him as the whistling policeman. After his first retirement he worked with our first Solicitor General, Angus Ree. He spent a long time working with former Premier Vander Zalm, and after a second retirement he went to work as the chief of security for Park Royal Mall — a wonderful citizen of British Columbia. Would the House please make him welcome.

He is accompanied by his good friend Tom Smith — no relation. Tom is a B.C. author, and he has the distinction of being a member of the Order of Canada for his work with youth in trouble, both as a teacher and as a volunteer worker with the YMCA. Please make Tom very welcome.

R. Austin: Today I would like to introduce three visitors coming from my constituency, visiting from Terrace for the first time here in the precinct. They are Bruce and Lee Cameron and their son Dane. They came down on the ferry from Port Hardy and are spending a few days here not only visiting us here at the Leg. but also coming to look at the University of Victoria as a possible venue for Dane when he finishes school in a couple of years' time. Will the House please make them welcome.

J. McIntyre: I have an introduction today, but I thought, first, I'd like to add my greetings to Naomi Chard, a constituent of mine whom I've known for many years. Our children went to school together. Welcome to the House.

I would like to introduce three members of the senior team today at the B.C. Innovation Council, a Crown agency. We have with us today Cindy Lum, who is the COO and president of the office of international partnerships, and she has successfully recently signed an MOU with the People's Republic of China.

We also have Dr. David Dolphin, the CEO of the Innovation Council. He's been a recent winner of the prestigious national Herzberg award that has been accompanied by a million dollars of research funding over the next five years, which is a wonderful triumph for British Columbia. Also, his photodynamic therapy was commercialized by QLT. We're indeed glad to have him with us — and also Hector MacKay-Dunn, a British Columbia biotech lawyer who specializes in that area and is a board member of B.C. Biotech and chair of B.C. Innovation Council. I hope the House will make them all feel welcome today.

G. Gentner: It's a pleasure to introduce to the House today some friends of mine, Janell and Elisha Smirfitt, who want to make it very clear that they reside in Steveston and not necessarily Richmond. Both are students, and Elisha works part-time at the world-famous Dave's Fish and Chips. Also in the gallery is my niece Lauren, a grade ten student at Burnett high school and a renowned softball player. Will the House please give them a hearty and warm welcome.

Hon. P. Bell: It is with some regret today that I have to inform everyone that tomorrow will be Jake McEwan's last day. I think Jake knows that; I'm not positive yet. Jake has served this House incredibly well for three years, starting as a research assistant with the

[ Page 4634 ]

government caucus and moving through becoming a ministerial assistant for me, as well as working as an executive assistant for several other ministers.

More importantly, he has served both sides of the House very well. He's done a great job serving all constituents of British Columbia and has had a real passion for public service. Jake is moving on to the private sector for a period of time, but I am fairly certain that Jake McEwan will come back to the House and be sitting on this floor some day. I would ask the House to please thank him for three years of very hard service.

Thanks, Jake.

[1410]

Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce 28 public servants seated in the gallery, who are participating in a full-day parliamentary procedure workshop offered by the Legislative Assembly. This workshop provides a firsthand opportunity for the public service to gain a greater understanding of the relationship between the work of their ministries and how the work affects this Legislature. Would the House please make them welcome.

Introduction and

First Reading of Bills

CRYSTAL METH PREVENTION ACT, 2006

J. Brar presented a bill intituled Crystal Meth Prevention Act, 2006.

J. Brar: I move that the bill be read for a first time today.

Motion approved.

J. Brar: I am pleased to introduce the Crystal Meth Prevention Act to the House today. This bill will allow for British Columbia to catch up with most of the provinces of Canada in restricting the ingredients in crystal meth. The bill will address the huge gap that remains in our policing of the drug crystal meth. This bill will address the gap we currently have in our legal efforts to put pressure on the small drug labs that are so dangerous to our kids and to our community.

Police and community leaders in many jurisdictions have identified that if they are to properly address all aspects of illegal drug manufacturing, they must place restrictions on the precursors of these drugs — in this case, crystal meth. By making these precursors less available to those criminals who prey upon our youth, we will leave police forces more able to focus on the prosecution of the large drug labs.

This bill will limit the sale of pseudoephedrine and ephedrine products in British Columbia by providing that these crystal meth precursors be sold only from licensed pharmacies. They must be maintained in a professional service area of a licensed pharmacy. This bill would restrict the daily amount a customer may receive and would move these multi-entity crystal meth precursors to be sold by a licensed pharmacist and only from the self-selection professional product area of a pharmacy.

By enacting this bill, we would join most other provinces and many states and assist our police to rid the small-scale producers of this insidious and addictive drug. The goal, of course, is to rid crystal meth completely from our communities. With this bill, I encourage all members of this House to urge the federal government to begin addressing the issue of bulk imports of crystal meth precursors. The bill is an important and valuable step for British Columbia to take. I strongly urge all members to review and support the bill.

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill M207, Crystal Meth Prevention Act, 2006, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Statements

(Standing Order 25

B) RICHMOND EMERGENCY SERVICES AWARDS

J. Yap: I rise to recognize the work of emergency services personnel and volunteers in my community of Richmond. On April 20, I along with the Solicitor General and the member for Richmond East attended the fourth annual Richmond Chamber of Commerce 911 awards dinner, which was emceed by Randy Neil of Global News. This event recognizes outstanding men and women in 14 categories, and I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about some of Richmond's finest citizens who make a difference in ensuring public safety.

The Community Safety Award of Valour was presented to Brian Hobbs, an employee of the Steveston Harbour Authority and a volunteer with the Steveston Coast Guard. In 2005 Brian selflessly stepped in to save the life of a suicidal man.

Kevin Gray was named Firefighter or Fire Rescue Crew of the Year for his tireless devotion to helping Richmond fire rescue become the best-trained and best-equipped fire department in the country.

Cpl. Lamond Ma was named Police Officer of the Year. His quick thinking and selfless actions saved lives in several emergency situations.

The Ambulance Paramedic of the Year award was presented to Bruce Harford for his work ethic and leadership qualities.

The Community Safety Volunteer of the Year award was presented to Walter Tyrrell, a volunteer with the Vancouver International Airport's RCMP detachment. Walter volunteers with the detachment 28 hours a week, providing invaluable support.

[1415]

The full listing of award recipients may be seen at the chamber's website: www.richmondchamber.ca. The

[ Page 4635 ]

dedication and courage shown by these individuals go well above and beyond the call of duty. They work hard to ensure the safety of our community 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Congratulations to all of this year's winners. I ask all members to join me in saying a big thank-you to all of the emergency services personnel who make communities across B.C. safer for all residents.

COLONY FARM REGIONAL PARK

D. Thorne: In the heart of Coquitlam sits one of the lower mainland's best-kept natural secrets. In fact, many people driving on the Lougheed Highway through Coquitlam have likely passed by it without even knowing. Tucked amid the highways and the housing developments is Colony Farm Regional Park, an island of grassy fields, forest marsh and riverside habitat that is home to a wide variety of plants and animals.

It is also the site of an upcoming open house when you can learn more about the park, its fascinating history and some of the exciting projects being done by park volunteers. On Saturday, May 13, everyone is invited to drop in between 1 p.m. and 4 p.m. for some firsthand experience of the magic of Colony Farm Regional Park.

Amongst the activities you can partake in, you could take a tour of a recently enhanced wetland. You can learn more about the herons, hawks and other wildlife that live in the park. You might even be lucky enough to help construct a new bat box so that resident bats in the park will be provided with new roosting and rearing habitat. Volunteers will explain the differences between native plants and invasive plants — differences that affect not only our fragile environment but our pocketbooks, big time.

There will be ongoing tours of the park, and the Colony Farm community gardeners will also be selling flower and vegetable seedlings to help raise funds to restore the heritage buildings that remain on the site. That's this coming Saturday at 1 p.m. I hope to see some members of the House join me there.

INDUSTRY TRAINING AUTHORITY

J. Rustad: I rise today to speak about an initiative that is really helping to fill the critical need in communities in my riding of Prince George–Omineca. The economy in communities like Prince George, Vanderhoof and Fort St. James has turned a corner. After a decade of people looking for jobs, jobs are now searching for people. In my riding alone, we have hundreds of new opportunities in industries like forestry, mining and construction. The push is on to find more skilled people to fill them. That's why our government took steps two years ago to build a more efficient and effective system of training people in the skills and trades that are so much in demand now.

Today we know without a doubt that those efforts have paid off. After just two years, the Industry Training Authority we created to meet the demand for trades training is reporting incredible results. The ITA has certified 2,900 tradesworkers in the last year alone. There is an 80-percent increase in the number of trainees — from 14,676 to 26,525. Particularly encouraging is the increase in the number of youth participating in trades training through high school programs. That has grown to more than three times what it was — from only 861 students in 2004 to 3,259 today.

Most importantly, the work of the ITA has helped to almost double the number of apprentices working in our province. As of March 31, 2006, there are 26,529 registered apprentices in B.C. compared with 14,676 apprentices when the ITA was created in 2004. We're meeting the skills challenge. As B.C.'s economy keeps booming, our government is committed to supporting the ITA, our colleges, universities and public schools so we can continue to meet the challenge in the future.

COWICHAN LAKE

COMMUNITY FOREST COOPERATIVE

D. Routley: Today I rise to share with the members a few words about the Cowichan Lake Community Forest Cooperative. So many of our small communities on the coast have been challenged by huge upheavals in their core industry and have struggled to come to terms with that.

[1420]

Although this is a very difficult process for the people of British Columbia in the coastal communities, some people are really stepping up to that plate. The Cowichan Lake Community Forest Cooperative is one of those organizations that encourages community engagement in the process of harvesting, community engagement in the oversight of forest practices and community engagement in terms of building new partnerships.

We have suffered a huge loss of mills on the coast, and our communities are calling out for a voice in the direction that our forest policies take. The Cowichan Lake Community Forest Cooperative has been there to establish the new kinds of partnerships that the government has called for and that the people of British Columbia have called for.

The forest cooperative has partnered with the Dididaht and Pacheedaht people on skills training agreements and fibre supply agreements. These are very positive partnerships that are creating new opportunities and new products and potential new markets. But they need us to stand behind them.

They tell me, when I meet with them, that a 1-percent gain in our share of the value-added product market in the United States would result in a $1 billion increase in our provincial domestic product. Those are huge numbers, and there are huge opportunities that we need to step up and grasp. That partnership is standing ready to help us do that.

Future goals for the Cowichan Lake Community Forest Cooperative: to convert their licence from a temporary licence to a permanent land-based licence so that they can have the certainty of fibre supply that's

[ Page 4636 ]

required for them to supply the customers that they know are out there, and ongoing skills development and economic development in the community. I'd like all of us to celebrate that.

KOREAN HERITAGE FESTIVAL

H. Bloy: As we all know, British Columbia is blessed to be home to people from many cultures and diverse backgrounds. My riding of Burquitlam is the hub of one of the most dynamic multicultural groups in this province, our Korean Canadian community. Right along North Road you see firsthand the dozens upon dozens of businesses owned by Korean Canadians catering to both their community and the public at large.

A lasting legacy from the Korean community is their efforts to build the Korean war memorial in Burnaby. This project is spearheaded by the Hanin Heritage Society, Mr. Ron Suh and the Korea Veterans Association. It will pay homage to those British Columbians who served and died during the Korean War, and it will be completed later next year.

To commemorate their history, they are celebrating the fifth anniversary of the Korean Heritage Day Festival. This year's festival will take place on June 17 at the Town Centre Stadium in Coquitlam. Thanks to the efforts of Yonah Martin, the festival organizer, and hundreds of volunteers, I am sure this year's festival will build on last year's success of over 15,000 people.

As usual, the festival promises to be filled with excitement. In addition to nearly 400 performers staging traditional Korean music and dance and tae kwon do demonstrations, the cho-won food fair will tempt the taste buds with an authentic Korean barbecue, kimchi bowls and other mouth-watering favourites.

I would like to invite my colleagues here and all British Columbians to help our province's Korean community celebrate their proud achievements and culture and join me next month in my community for the fifth Korean Heritage Day Festival on June 17.

HEPATITIS AWARENESS MONTH

M. Karagianis: May is Hepatitis Awareness Month, and this serves as a great opportunity to increase awareness and educate the public on the impacts of hepatitis. When I was young, I actually contracted hepatitis. In those days there was not the same level of understanding about the long-term effects or the various types of hepatitis.

In fact, there are many different viruses under the hepatitis category — A, B, C, D and E. All of them cause inflammation to the liver, and many can cause chronic conditions. Early detection is key to avoiding damage to the liver and transmitting the virus to others.

Hepatitis C is a particular health hazard and health concern. An estimated 250,000 Canadians are infected with this virus, many of whom are unaware that they have the disease. Over one-third of those individuals live here in British Columbia — an estimated 65,000 British Columbians — with about 1,500 new infections occurring annually. Close to 60 percent of those cases are people aged 40 to 59 — people who should be in their peak earning and family-raising years. Instead, many of their years are spent with increasing disabilities because of this disease.

[1425]

It can take decades for symptoms to manifest, and between 20 and 30 percent of chronic infections progress to cirrhosis, liver failure and liver cancer.

Since 1998, Health Canada has made a continued commitment to hep C prevention. They've renewed the hep C prevention support and research program, which will allow important work to continue on hep C until the new Canadian public health agency is established and a long-term strategy is developed.

I don't know if I will suffer long-term liver problems in the future. I know that I can't give blood, and I cannot be an organ donor as a result of the disease, which I regret very much. But very fortunately for me, I can count my blessings. I didn't contract hep C. Please help me celebrate Hepatitis Month here in Canada.

Standing Order 81.1

COMPLETION OF LEGISLATIVE AGENDA

Hon. M. de Jong: I rise pursuant to Standing Order 81.1 and want to advise the House that following extensive discussions with the Opposition House Leader, we have managed to come to an agreement regarding the completion of business for the balance of the current sitting, which is ending on Thursday, May 18.

That

schedule will see all of the estimates and bills presently on the order paper completed except for Bill 23, which is the Public Inquiry Act, and Bill 32, the Adult Guardianship and Personal Planning Statutes Amendment Act, 2006. Those bills obviously have been the subject of comments by stakeholders and interested parties, and the government believes it would be beneficial to hear further from those with views. Those two bills will not be forthcoming or proceeding this session.

The Opposition House Leader has also been advised that given the concerns expressed by the freedom-of-information and privacy commissioner with respect to

section 9 of Bill 30, the Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2006, the government doesn't intend to proceed with that proposed amendment to the FOI Act.

[Applause.]

Well, I don't know what to do next, Mr. Speaker.

Priority for the government has been to ensure that ample time is available for the Legislature to consider and debate Bill 34, the legislation around the children and youth representative. I believe that the Opposition House Leader and I have settled on a

schedule that will allow us to do that. I am, as always, obliged to him for the time he has taken in working with me to settle on a

schedule that I believe serves the interests of this chamber and the people of B.C.

[ Page 4637 ]

M. Farnworth: I just want to concur with my colleague the Government House Leader that the discussions have yielded a result that allows for the disposition of bills, which are clearly very much in the public interest, in a timely fashion. It also allows for legislation, which the opposition has believed to be requiring of further discussion and inputs, to be carried over. I think that is something that will serve this House and this province well.

It is also important to note that this session is the first full session on the new parliamentary calendar with a full opposition. It's important that the calendar has remained intact, that we have been able to deal with business in an orderly fashion, and I think that speaks well for the future.

[1430]

Oral Questions

ACUTE CARE BEDS

AT KELOWNA GENERAL HOSPITAL

C. James: Here we are, another day and another hospital in crisis. We saw on the weekend, on Sunday, that it was Vernon general hospital, and today it's Kelowna General Hospital. All morning the opposition has been getting firsthand reports about the fact that Kelowna General is bursting at the seams. At 10:40 this morning the hospital declared another code purple. The hospital is way over capacity, and the staff say it's the worst it has ever been.

Urgent action is obviously needed. My question to the Minister of Health is: what directions has the minister given to his staff and to the IHA to actually relieve the crisis in Kelowna?

Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the opposition leader for her question. Obviously, emergency room services are a vital part of health care delivery in the province. In the case of Kelowna General Hospital, I'm glad to advise the member that I met just a few days ago with medical staff at Kelowna General Hospital, including a meeting of well over an hour with emergency department physicians and nurses and so on. I think everyone is working at Kelowna General and at other hospitals towards relieving congestion in emergency rooms.

I'm also glad to advise the member that the code purple that was produced at Kelowna General Hospital this morning was the product of two…. Well, I'm not glad to report this. The code purple was a consequence of two serious automobile accidents. But I am pleased to report that the code purple was lifted within an hour after those difficult circumstances had been dealt with by the very capable emergency room physicians and nurses at Kelowna General Hospital.

Mr. Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental.

C. James: We would agree that the staff are very capable and that they're working with impossible situations. What they're missing is leadership from this government to solve the problem.

We saw a code purple at Kelowna General Hospital just two months ago, and we heard from the Health Minister that it was a periodic spike. The Interior Health region said it was a rare event. Well, we know that the Health Minister is wrong. According to Kelowna General Hospital's administrator Rick Riley, the hospital has been far over its maximum capacity every day for the last month.

Doctors in Kelowna are demanding that the government fund 40 new acute care beds. Will the minister commit to doing just that?

Interjection.

Mr. Speaker: Member.

Hon. G. Abbott: The designation "code purple" is reflective of a serious situation that's occurring in an emergency room department. I've just advised the member that the code purple that occurred today in Kelowna General Hospital was the consequence of two serious automobile accidents. That's unfortunate. But again, in respect of that situation, the code purple was lifted within an hour after it had been put in place.

One of the things we're doing…. We're doing many things, and I hope we have an opportunity to talk at length about this today. I think that among the things we're doing — and the member may know about this…. Recently we had a meeting involving emergency room doctors, emergency room nurses, the Hospital Employees Union, paramedics and health care administrators from all of the regions. All of those groups are committed to working together to find solutions to have better, more timely service in ERs.

The one group that doesn't appear to be a part of that working together is this group across the aisle here. I'm disappointed in that, but none of that will prevent the rest of us from working together to find solutions.

[1435]

Mr. Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental.

C. James: It's taken a very long time, and finally this government has decided to listen to health care providers, who've been telling them that there's a crisis for the last five years. Lifting a code purple does not mean that overcrowding goes away. It does not take away the problem.

One of the reasons there is a crisis in Kelowna is because this government closed beds in Vernon, Osoyoos, Summerland, Princeton and Penticton. Because they shut down so many beds and broke their promise around building 5,000 long-term care beds, we see Kelowna General missing acute care beds to admit patients.

When will the minister quit brushing off the crisis, admit that they didn't build the beds they needed to,

[ Page 4638 ]

that they cut too many beds, and actually solve the problem?

Hon. G. Abbott: I'm sure in the moments ahead I'll have plenty of opportunities to highlight the ways in which we are moving very constructively to resolve this situation. If you want to go to the heart of the challenges we face, it's not around adding more beds. I know that the folks over here say that's the magic bullet. A bed is a steel frame with a mattress on it until you have a health care professional, a health care provider who can serve the patient who's in that bed.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Continue, minister.

Hon. G. Abbott: The NDP may want to reflect on this very sobering statistic. Currently, there are 772 nurse vacancies within the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority. Within the Fraser Health Authority, there are 321 nurse vacancies. They cannot find nurses to fill those spaces. Why is that? Could it be because that former government didn't add a single nursing space to B.C.'s colleges and universities during the 1990s?

Interjection.

Hon. G. Abbott: That's absolutely right. They did not. We've reversed that. We've added 2,511 — a 62-percent increase — and we're very proud of that.

K. Conroy: Well, let's talk about this statistic — that hospitals in the interior are consistently over capacity, so they can't deal with tragic multiple accidents. That shouldn't be happening. Doctors are frantically trying to dislodge patients so that…. In a code purple situation, they desperately need the acute care beds. The minister still denies he has anything to do with it.

Now a hospital administrator — the administrator — has admitted that bad days are a norm in Kelowna. Doctors say they need 40 acute care beds. Will the minister commit today that he needs to get those beds up and running and get patients out of the hallways in the Okanagan?

Hon. G. Abbott: I suppose that sanctimony can be a very fine thing when one has the evidence and arguments to back it up. This is a government over here that during their term of office cut 3,334 beds in this province. This was the government over here that during the 1990s cut the number of acute care beds by 23 percent. Now, suddenly, they are the heroes here, demanding acute care beds as the magic bullet to resolve that problem. Well, why didn't they fire any of those magic bullets back in the 1990s?

[1440]

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members, members. Members on both sides, the Minister of Health has the floor.

Hon. G. Abbott: I am pleased to report, Mr. Speaker…. These are some numbers that were just put together yesterday after a good deal of work by the Ministry of Health. I'm pleased to advise that, for example, we have seen a 66-percent increase in palliative care beds. We have seen a 29.4-percent increase in mental health community beds. We've seen an 18.8-percent increase in addiction treatment beds. Overall, we see an increase of 2,040 beds — a 5-percent increase in the beds in this province.

Mr. Speaker: The member for West Kootenay–Boundary has a supplemental.

K. Conroy: Yet we still have code purples in the main hospital in the interior.

Patients in the Okanagan don't need just lip service from this minister, sanctimonious or not. They need action. They need the government to acknowledge the crisis created by the bed cuts in their government. They need to know that the interior's largest hospital is capable of making it through a month without declaring code purple. They need to know they aren't going to be prematurely discharged from a bed to make up for the cuts this government made.

How many more days does Kelowna General need to be in absolute overload before this government wakes up to the reality that this government has created?

Hon. G. Abbott: I think this debate and this attention to the issue are useful, in the respect that it does provide a real distinction between that side of the House and this side of the House. That side of the House talks. Perhaps it's in sanctimonious and hypocritical terms, but they talk. This is the side that takes action to deal with the problem.

I'm pleased to advise the member, in relation to Kelowna General Hospital specifically, that to assist with the situation in the central Okanagan, Interior Health recently opened up 115 assisted-living units in that community. They've recently opened 20 new residential care beds at KGH and will be adding 280 more residential care beds in the central Okanagan over the next two years.

EMERGENCY SERVICES

IN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM

D. Cubberley: The Minister of Health often likes to talk about his record in health care. Yesterday we learned of two new firsts that he could add to his repertoire.

The first-ever national study of emergency room operations by the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health reveals that B.C. is far and away the national leader on two important measures of hospital emergency room operation — the leader.

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First, 82 percent of emergency room directors in B.C. said that overcrowding was a major problem in 2004 and 2005, and that's one-third above the national average. Now, that's an achievement. Second, 94 percent — that's quite resolved — of ER directors in British Columbia found overcrowding in their emergency departments at least once a week, compared to just 35 percent nationally.

Those are achievements the minister may not wish to crow about, but here's a finding that confirms something he likes to keep buried. The study also revealed that 85 percent of ER directors believe that lack of beds is the major cause of overcrowded hospitals — lack of beds.

My question, then: does the minister still deny that closing one in five hospital beds since 2001 precipitated the deplorable conditions in hospital emergency rooms across B.C.?

[1445]

Hon. G. Abbott: I'm glad the member asked that question. I'm glad to report to him the difference between 2001 and 2005, when we took office.

Over that period, palliative care beds up 54; residential care and assisted-living beds up 1,509; mental health community beds up 1,451; addiction treatment beds up 164 — for a total of incremental new beds of 2,040 since we took office.

The member doesn't really do justice to the report that was brought out yesterday. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised by that, but I want to just offer this quote from the author of the report. I think the report is pretty fair and balanced. It points to emergency room challenges in every jurisdiction across the nation. This is a study that is based on surveys of the emergency room department directors, so there is an element of subjectivity about it.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Saanich South has a supplemental.

D. Cubberley: It seems to be lost on the minister and on members on that side of the House that we are talking about beds you can be admitted to in a hospital. We're talking about acute care beds. You cut 1,300….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

D. Cubberley: One in five….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: We listened to the answer. Let's listen to the question, please.

Member, continue.

D. Cubberley: You cut 1,300 acute care beds, one in five, and you don't want to own your own history. Why aren't you proud of that part of your record?

Health care providers across British Columbia are trying to tell this minister and this government that overcrowding is systemic and that more beds are key to the cure, and they don't want to hear. How can you not hear statements like these: "Adding bed capacity is the key to addressing overcrowding…."

Mr. Speaker: Can the member pose the question, please. Pose the question.

D. Cubberley: "Adding capacity is the key to addressing overcrowding and wait times. We need more beds in the hospital so that patients can be moved out of the emergency room."

Mr. Speaker: Member, please pose the question.

D. Cubberley: Let me just ask this simple question. A simple question — no rhetoric. Does the Minister of Health agree with the key findings of the report that the top two causes of the ER crisis are a lack of admitting beds and a lack of acute care beds? A simple question.

Hon. G. Abbott: I genuinely appreciate the simple question. It matches up very nicely with the simple answers we so often hear from the opposition as well, so thank you for that.

I know that those who have been awaiting the quote from Dr. Brian Rowe, the author of the report, are sitting on pins and needles since the last exchange. I will offer that now so that I'm sure to get it in. What Dr. Rowe says is: "What this study shows is that emergency department overcrowding is a challenging and systemwide problem with no simple solutions."

We know that in that report, British Columbia and Alberta are identified as two that have ER challenges. All provinces have ER challenges, but B.C. and Alberta are noted as being two of them. Among the things we should note from that is that B.C. and Alberta are the two fastest-growing jurisdictions in this country.

We also know that ER visits are triple what one would expect from that population growth. Though there is an issue, there is a challenge, our government is working with doctors and nurses and paramedics to meet that problem and to prevent that problem.

ACUTE CARE BEDS

AT ROYAL INLAND HOSPITAL

C. Wyse: Kamloops has seen a drastic 24-percent cut to long-term care beds, with 120 beds eliminated since 2002. Currently, it is estimated that 15 percent of the acute care beds at Royal Inland Hospital are occupied by seniors waiting for a long-term care placement.

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Surgeries are being cancelled regularly because there are no available acute care beds. The ER gets overloaded because there are no acute care beds. What doesn't the minister understand? Why can't he see the connection between bed cuts and crises in the ERs?

[ Page 4640 ]

Interjection.

Mr. Speaker: Member.

Does the member for Cariboo South want to finish his question?

C. Wyse: Mr. Speaker, I finished my question. I wasn't interrupted by the noise from across the room at all.

Hon. G. Abbott: I think before we leave the issue of the recent report…. There is a person who is not always an admirer of mine, but she is someone who I respect enormously, and I do respect what she had to say on this situation. Debra McPherson, the president of the B.C. Nurses Union, when asked about the report yesterday said this: "There is no one answer to this issue. We have an aging population, a high utilization of the emergency for a lot of reasons. There is no quick band-aid here."

I think that helps to set our understanding of the challenges that we face. In terms of Royal Inland Hospital, I don't know what period the member is speaking from. Certainly, there were a lot of broken promises by the former government in relation to Royal Inland Hospital. I can tell the member that we have invested almost $28 million since 2001 in the emergency room at Royal Inland Hospital. We have invested a comparable amount in 44 beds in the new neuropsychiatric centre at Royal Inland Hospital, and many other investments as well.

WORKER SAFETY AT SERVICE STATIONS

C. Puchmayr: Yesterday we learned that another gas station attendant had been injured while trying to stop a theft of gas. It happened in the Surrey-Delta border. In this case the attendant tried to stop the driver. As the driver pulled away, the attendant was hit by the vehicle, thrown and injured.

The Solicitor General is on record as stating that he thinks these types of incidents are rare, and he does not think that regulations need to be tightened to prevent future incidents. Does the Minister of Labour support the position of the Solicitor General?

Hon. M. de Jong: I am obliged to the member for raising the question today in particular, because it is an opportunity to remind all employees that safety is paramount. They need to know that. They need to govern themselves and their actions with that in mind. It's also an opportunity to say to employers and remind them — as WorkSafe has, and as we will continue to — that where a theft occurs, that is not the responsibility of the employee. So safety first, and where situations arise, that is not something that should be visited upon the employee.

Secondly, and to the member's observations, there are some things we are doing now. We have provided notification to over 1,400 retail fuel outlets of what their obligations are as employers. We have also stepped up random inspections to ensure that those employers are conducting themselves in full accordance with the occupational health and safety regulations and the Employment Standards Act.

Mr. Speaker: The member for New Westminster has a supplemental.

C. Puchmayr: It is sad that this government repealed the legislation that made it mandatory to post employment standards regulations in places of employment. Many places of employment don't even have the WorkSafe regulations available to employees.

The recent incident in Surrey-Delta is strikingly similar to the Grant DePatie case in Maple Ridge. Over a year after that tragic loss it was found that that gas station was still in violation, with workers working alone. It is clear that the current system isn't working. This government needs to take steps now.

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Will the minister agree to entertain legislation to ensure that there is proper action taken so that our young people and our people can work safely in that industry?

Hon. M. de Jong: Again, to the member, who I think knows, because we have had discussions in the past, we are in the midst of — in addition to the other work that I related just a few moments ago — exploring a range of options that relate to things like prepay or pay-at-the-pump. That work is ongoing.

Obviously, the circumstance last night that he related to the House and additional similar circumstances raise the urgency. We are conducting our analysis with all speed possible and hope to be in a position to report back, if not to this House, then publicly as soon as possible.

M. Sather: Well, gentle reminders to employers and employees, no matter how eloquently put by the minister, are not going to cut it. The minister says, "We're consulting; we're looking," but nothing has happened.

It's been over a year since the DePatie case occurred. We're looking now at gas prices soaring. That's another impetus for unscrupulous people to be involved in this kind of activity. The regulations clearly aren't working. I don't understand what evidence this government needs to act on this case.

When is this minister going to put some legislation forward — it's required here — or at least enforce the regulations that are in place?

Hon. M. de Jong: It's because I know the member is sincere in raising the issues that I don't want to chastise him for an either-or approach to the subject. It may not be a legislative solution. It may be a case of amending some of the existing regulatory provisions that are out there. That's what we're trying to explore so that what we have is a response to a situation that isn't built around simply attracting a headline to say something has happened but doing something that actually makes a difference. We're approaching it with all the haste we

[ Page 4641 ]

can. I understand that the member is concerned. All members are concerned.

Again, to the employees who are out there working in this field: what they need to understand is that safety is first. When confronted by criminal activity, their first obligation is to ensure their own safety and then to contact the proper authorities to investigate.

PRIVATE LODGES AND RESORTS

IN PROVINCIAL PARKS

S. Simpson: In a 1998 letter the Premier, when he was then opposition leader, made the following comment. He said: "When government does its business behind closed doors, people will invariably believe that government has something to hide. Secrecy feeds distrust and dishonesty; openness builds trust and integrity."

The Western Canada Wilderness Committee filed a freedom-of-information request regarding government policy for putting private resorts and lodges in B.C. parks on October 5 of last year. The government identified some 2,400 pages of documents that were relevant to that request and tried unsuccessfully to charge the group $750 for the related information.

For six months this government flouted its own law and simply refused to release the information until it was ordered to do so by the Information and Privacy Commissioner. It then provided just 19 of those 2,400 pages — 19 pages of heavily censored e-mails and an unrelated report.

My question to the Minister of Environment is: why won't this government — as was promised by the Premier to be the most open, accountable and transparent in Canada — release these documents?

Hon. B. Penner: I can look into the matter that the member just raised. But it is no secret that the Ministry of Environment and the B.C. government are interested in implementing a consistent policy towards fixed-roof accommodation for B.C. parks. Over the years it's been rather ad hoc, and that's why in the 1990s we saw the former NDP government, for example, approve a new lodge in Kokanee Glacier Park.

[1500]

I don't know if the members opposite now are of the view that that lodge should be torn down and people shouldn't have that recreational opportunity. I don't know if the member for Yale-Lillooet disagrees that there should be a lodge opportunity in Manning Park and that people should get a chance to go and use the swimming pool or use the tennis courts.

I know the critic has made disparaging comments in the past about people exercising in that way, but frankly right now those facilities exist. People by the hundreds — and over the years, thousands — have taken advantage of more than 160 different forms of fixed-roof accommodation in British Columbia parks. Frankly, this side of the House is interested in getting more people into our parks so they can get fit, get active and enjoy the great outdoors.

[End of question period.]

Reports from Committees

A. Horning: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present the second report of the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills.

I move that the report be read and received.

Motion approved.

Law Clerk:

May 10, 2006:

Mr. Speaker, your Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills begs leave to report as follows: that the revision of the Union of British Columbia Municipalities Act prepared pursuant to the Statute Revision Act and attached hereto is approved, and the committee recommends that it be brought into force.

All of which is respectfully submitted.

A. Horning, Chairman.

A. Horning: Hon. Speaker, I ask for leave of the House to permit the moving of a motion to adopt the report.

Leave granted.

A. Horning: I move that the report be adopted.

Motion approved.

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. de Jong: In this chamber I call committee stage debate of Bill 33. In

Section A, Committee of Supply, for the information of members, we shall begin with the Ministry of Transportation to be followed, ultimately, by the Ministry of Health.

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Committee of the Whole House

EDUCATION (LEARNING ENHANCEMENT)

STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2006

The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 33; S. Hawkins in the chair.

The committee met at 3:08 p.m.

section 1.

J. Horgan: As we begin the discussion of committee stage of Bill 33, I have a series of questions, and I also have amendments that I will be moving as we proceed through the legislation. I've provided the minister with those amendments, as well as the table officers.

With respect to

section 1, could the minister give us an indication what the substitution of "means a school,

[ Page 4642 ]

including a distributed learning independent school" means?

Introductions by Members

The Chair: Members, if the House would indulge me, I have an introduction to make. Visiting the Legislature today and in the gallery are about 67 grade seven students from Dr. Knox Middle School. They're here with Ms. Ashman, Mr. Colpitt and Mr. Mastromonaco and other adults that are also chaperoning with them. I would ask the House to please join me in making them welcome.

Debate Continued

Hon. S. Bond: Before I answer the question, I would like to just introduce the staff that I have in the House with me today. They are a fantastic team, as we have in the Ministry of Education. To my right is Deputy Minister of Education Emery Dosdall. To my left is Rick Davis, who is our superintendent, liaison, and just behind us is Peter Owen, lead director of the governance department.

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In terms of a "distributed learning independent school," the definition would be an independent school that offers instruction that uses the distributed-learning principle.

J. Horgan: Would that independent school be within the borders of British Columbia? Could it be elsewhere in Canada? Could it be in an international location?

Hon. S. Bond: Independent schools in British Columbia.

J. Horgan: With them, with respect to the student record referred to in

section 1(1)(c), a " 'student record' means a record of information in written or electronic form in respect of a student, but does not include a record prepared by a person if that person is the only person with access to the record."

Could the minister confirm that the student record in a distributed-learning context is held by what institution? Would it be the institution offering the course? Would it be the institution where the individual is enrolled?

Hon. S. Bond: Where the student is enrolled.

G. Coons: I was just wondering how you see the records being shared between the independent schools and public schools, as we move along.

Hon. S. Bond: Well, it would be nothing other than what happens currently. If a student takes a course in one school and transfers to another, that information would be transferred back to the school where the student is currently enrolled.

G. Coons: What about the funding? Is it going to be per-pupil funding? How will that work if a student in a public school is taking two or three different distributed-learning courses from other institutions?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, the funding would follow the student for that particular course. If a student enrolled in one secondary school would like to take a distributed-learning course from a second school, the funding for that course only would simply go to the second school.

J. Horgan: Following the minister's response, then, my understanding is that funding is not on a per-course basis in British Columbia. How, then, would funding that is provided on a block basis to a school district be distributed to an independent school that's only providing distributed learning?

Hon. S. Bond: In grades ten, 11 and 12, if a student is taking a distributed-learning program, that funding will be by course.

J. Horgan: Is that the current practice?

[1515]

Hon. S. Bond: There is no change to the way we fund schools in the province of British Columbia. There will be a change to how we support distributed-learning courses.

J. Horgan: That's, I guess, the point I want the minister to help me get to and better understand. If districts are provided with funding based on a per-pupil formula and now we're introducing funding on a per-course basis with respect to distance learning or distributed learning, then how is that course paid for? Does the district have to reimburse the ministry for that portion of the course load that's not being received in the terrestrial school, and then provide that money to the distributed learning institution? Or is the money provided directly from the parents of that child? How does the money go from where it started to where it will end up?

Hon. S. Bond: The funding pattern will continue to flow to schools the way that it does now, except for students who are enrolled as distributed-learning students. For those students, their courses would be funded by course. Those dollars would be sent to the enrolling school.

J. Horgan: Are those funds sent from the ministry, or are they sent from the district where the student is enrolled? I'm just not clear. This is a departure from past practice, and I think it's important that we understand how it is that resources are now going to be channelled to this new entity.

Hon. S. Bond: The money will flow from the ministry. I think the point of the program is to allow students to have choice and opportunity and to expand those horizons. So we are going to adjust the way that

[ Page 4643 ]

we provide the funding for distributed-learning students only. It will be only in grades ten, 11 or 12. We'll be able to actually allow students — imagine that — to be able, if they're distributed-learning students, to choose courses they would like to take. In fact, we will fund those to the school in which they are enrolled.

J. Horgan: I hope it isn't too bothersome for the minister that I'm asking some questions about an important piece of legislation that's changing the way we do business in the province. It's an appropriate thing for me to do, and it's appropriate for her to answer the questions so that we can better understand what this is — not celebrate choice, but to figure out why we're debating this

section of the bill.

My question is: is this…?

Interjections.

The Chair: Members, please.

J. Horgan: Is this, to attribute this section, fulfilling the throne speech commitment to a virtual school?

Hon. S. Bond: Yes. This is absolutely one of the commitments that we've made. We want to see expanded choice in this province. We've heard from people across all parts of this province that one of the ways we can begin to look at equal access — not the only way — is by the creation of a virtual school. We're excited about that. We've had very positive feedback, and yes, indeed, we need to put the mechanisms in place to make sure we can offer those choices to students.

G. Coons: It might be exciting, but then again, coming from rural areas, I see this — and quite a few of the school districts, I think, in the rural areas might see this — as leading to staffing nightmares as far as the mixing of independent and public schools.

My question is: as for the virtual schools or the distributed-learning independent schools, are there any class limits or loads to those?

[1520]

Hon. S. Bond: First of all, the whole concept of learning via technology is not new. In fact, British Columbia is behind many other jurisdictions in this country and in this world. So it's not like we're reinventing the wheel. In many cases, we're trying to catch up and allow students the opportunities to take advantage of as many courses and as many delivery ways as possible.

Currently, there are some options for students that are very similar to this, so this is not a new delivery mechanism. It's a way of bringing all of these programs together under one umbrella to allow students…. In particular, some students in the member opposite's riding might be able to take advantage of having course offerings that they have not had the ability to take previously.

G. Coons: I'm sure people in my riding would like to take advantage of having a real live person in front of their class, besides being instructed in a virtual school.

I was just wondering: are there any class loads or limits to these virtual schools?

Hon. S. Bond: We're in the process of putting the mechanisms in place to bring to life a virtual school in this province. This is the legislation that's required to do that. We're going to work through the developmental programs, but let's make no mistake about it: schools across this province are already offering distance learning programs.

This looks at the whole concept of distributed learning. In fact, there will be different methods of delivery across the province. It's not a one-size-fits-all solution, and we think that's part of the good news in this story. This will allow expanded opportunity and choice for our students.

G. Coons: This is the format to bring to life the legislation, and I think that's what we're trying to do here. I'm trying to get a read on whether or not there are restrictions on class loads or limits. I take it there may not be, and you haven't decided that yet.

There could be these virtual schools dealing with 100 or 200 students across the province networked out of a particular school somewhere. Is that correct?

Hon. S. Bond: As I pointed out to the member opposite, this is an opportunity for us to expand opportunities for students in this province. There isn't a model in place that suggests it's going to look like this in one district or like that in another district.

What we're going to do is have a discussion about how best to serve students. We already have these resources being offered by many districts across the province. We want to bring them together. We want to see a coordinated and high-quality approach.

I do want to comment on the member's comment that we'd all love to have a real live person. We're not suggesting for a moment that there won't be appropriate resources and supports in place. In fact, we actually believe that, in some situations, this will allow students to have classes that they simply have not been able to have before. It's not a matter of replacing anything or anyone. It's a matter of enhancing and expanding opportunity.

J. Horgan: Could the minister advise the committee if the individuals providing this service will be credentialed? Will they be members of the teachers college, or are they just folks with a computer in the basement?

Hon. S. Bond: First of all, programs like this are being offered every day in British Columbia by trained professionals. I visited one of those places just the other day, where they have 300 students operating out of a school district run by teachers that are actually providing 300 students with courses. We want to work together with those organizations to say: how can we actually benefit more students in this province?

[ Page 4644 ]

The professionals will either be credentialed under the Independent School Act, which is currently in existence, or be a member of the B.C. College of Teachers.

[1525]

J. Horgan: Could the minister, then, elaborate on her example? Those 300 students, I assume, were in the public system, and it was a school district funded through the public education system, not a private independent school?

Hon. S. Bond: I visited a public school district that actually offered incredible distance learning opportunities.

J. Horgan: I rejoice in the successes within the public system with the minister. What troubles me or concerns me at this stage — reading the legislation on this

section with respect to the Independent School Act, which I have here in front of me — is that I think the public would like to have a sense of what the criteria would be for these institutions to be created and established, what the qualifications would be of the individuals providing the courses, and how that is going to be monitored.

Those are the thrusts of the questions that we have before the minister. I'm wondering if she could give us an indication of how well this has been thought through by staff at the ministry and how will it be implemented?

Hon. S. Bond: It has been and will continue to be well thought out by the ministry and the great staff that we have there. It will also respond to the needs and concerns that parents and others across this province have about access. We need to be clear that these programs already exist, both on the public and private side.

They exist with an agreement with the minister in terms of offering those on the independent school side. Independent schools that receive funding obviously have rigorous criteria. They are governed by the Independent School Act. Nothing will change in that regard.

Section 1 approved.

section 2.

J. Horgan: How will reporting be conducted from these independent schools to the Ministry of Education?

Hon. S. Bond: First of all, there is an inspector of independent schools who does that on a regular basis. We also have monitoring that is done regularly, and in fact, independent schools are governed with very rigorous and very high expectations, as are the public schools.

J. Horgan:

Section 2,

section 1.1(3)(b)(i). This is with respect to the student's parent or guardian. Could the minister explain to me the intent of this clause?

[1530]

Hon. S. Bond: We're not quite certain of the question, but we think…. The

section merely outlines what the criteria are for counting students.

J. Horgan: That's my concern as I read that clause: "is or was at the time of that parent's or guardian's death, a citizen of Canada or permanent resident as defined…" And we have a definition under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act: "who is, or was at that time of the parent or guardian's death, ordinarily resident in British Columbia…"

I'm just wondering what…. It seems an odd clause. I'm wondering if it's in other legislation and I just haven't come across it. What precipitated its inclusion in this bill, in this section?

Hon. S. Bond: What subsection (3) sets out is that a funded student must be of school age and that the student's parent or guardian must be ordinarily resident in British Columbia. In fact, that terminology is updated to reflect recent amendments to the federal Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, so it's merely a clarification of the language based on a change in the act.

Introductions by Members

The Chair: If the members of the House would indulge the Chair once again, I see that the second half of the class visiting from Dr. Knox Middle School is in the gallery. They are accompanied by Ms. Ashman, Mr. Colpitt and Mr. Mastromonaco. It's the concert band and choral

section of grade seven students from Dr. Knox Middle School in my riding, and I would ask members to please make them welcome.

Debate Continued

J. Horgan: Moving through

section 2(6.1), "Sharing of student records," we touched upon this in a previous discussion on

section 1. I'm wondering again if the minister could explain where there's a crossover between the private independent school and the public school. I'm not clear on…. The records are housed…. Assume we have a child at Oak Bay High School here in Victoria in grade ten, 11 or 12 and they have almost a full course load but are taking a distributed course from an independent provider, as outlined in the previous sections: The record for that student is housed at Oak Bay High School, and the fulfilment of the requirement of the courts through the distributed process is then transferred to Oak Bay High School. Is that how this would work in terms of sharing the student's records?

Hon. S. Bond: Yes.

J. Horgan: So let's say that three-fourths of the records which are traditionally held for the courses being taken at Oak Bay High will not be transmitted the opposite direction to the private institution?

[ Page 4645 ]

Hon. S. Bond: That's correct. The full record stays at the child's home school. The course they would have completed — that information would have been transferred over.

J. Horgan: With respect to that record, then, at no point would the independent school have access to any other component beyond that which is being offered by that institution to that individual, and the records would be transferred back. I'm understanding your point?

[1535]

Hon. S. Bond: We'll clarify it one last time for all of us. The home school would have the majority of the student's records and the additional information would transfer from that other school, whether public or independent, to the home school. But there will be a sharing of that information between the two schools in order for the child to have a complete record.

G. Coons: Some clarification in 8.1. The first one: "An authority may provide all or part of an educational program by means of distributed learning only with the prior agreement of the minister." I was just wondering: what criteria or standards would the minister use in that?

Hon. S. Bond: That's actually not a change in current practice. That's what exists now.

G. Coons: I'm just wondering: will these virtual schools, these DLs, have any school accreditation or have some sort of accreditation process?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, one of the primary goals of having a virtual school is to allow us to assure people who take those programs that they are of a certain standard, so there will be very high-quality standard expectations. That's why there is an expectation the agreement be made with the minister: so that we can monitor and assure those students who choose distributed learning that there are quality standards in place. That is the current practice, and this is not a change from what we do today.

J. Horgan: As I understand it, DL students, or distance-education students, are currently able to access nine programs, if I read correctly the material that I've received from the ministry: My Schools B.C., Distance Education School of the Kootenays, E-Business Academy, Fraser Valley Distance Education School, Greater Vancouver Distance Education School, Kamloops-Thompson Virtual School, North Island Distance Education School, Northern B.C. Distance Education School and the South Island Distance Education School.

Are all of those public, or are they all private, or is it a mix? And if that's not at hand, could that be provided at a later date?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, those schools are traditional correspondence schools. Those are public schools, but there may well be, and probably there are, courses offered in independent schools by distance or distributed learning, as we speak.

J. Horgan: Does the minister and the ministry anticipate, as a result of this amendment, an increase in the number of institutions offering DL programs, and if so, have they factored in what that growth rate might be?

Hon. S. Bond: We don't anticipate and certainly are not planning that there be a significant amount of growth. The issue here is of making it more accessible, having students be more aware of the opportunities. We also want the opportunity to make sure that there isn't duplication. Why would we have three or four or five or six courses being created that are in essence the same? It gives us a chance to bring some efficiencies but, most importantly, to provide a new way of access to these courses for students.

We think this will set the stage for a virtual school that will give students new and exciting opportunities. They will be high standard. There will be expectations that schools work through the virtual school in order to offer this programming.

[1540]

J. Horgan: This goes back to the funding question I asked earlier. It's a concern that if there is a proliferation of independent virtual school course offerings across the province, that will potentially, over time, have a detrimental impact on funding for the public system and for land-based or real-time teaching in real classrooms and real communities across B.C.

These are among the concerns I've been getting in my in-box about the legislation, in these sections. I'm wondering if the minister could provide the public with some comfort that there isn't an expectation there will be a significant increase in computer companies offering courses that will then have a negative impact on resourcing of the public system.

Hon. S. Bond: I have a great deal of confidence in the public education system. I think we can have that confidence. I think students will choose to take opportunities and take advantage of additional access. This isn't about computer companies. This is about public education and independent schools that are rigorous in their expectations. They have rigorous guidelines.

This is an opportunity to expand choice, to give students right across this province new opportunities — students with different learning styles. This isn't going to be the only answer for students. We simply want it to be one additional answer.

J. Horgan: I don't doubt for a minute the minister's enthusiasm. I'm just concerned that the public who have been contacting me in my role as critic for her ministry are expressing concern to me that this may well lead to an increase not in the traditional independent schools, which we have come to know as inte-

[ Page 4646 ]

gral parts of our community providing a service to those who wish to buy it, but to an increase in companies that want to be in the business of providing courses.

This isn't a slight to those innovators out there in high-tech land. It is only a comment that has come to me that I would like the minister to contemplate for a minute with her staff and advise: what would be the result of an increase in the number of companies providing educational services in the province? What would the impact be, over time, on funding to the traditional system if funding is now on a per-course basis and block funding is leaving a district and going to a company that is providing computer services?

Hon. S. Bond: This isn't about computer companies. It's about schools. It's about districts across this province that are already creating fantastic programs and looking for new and innovative ways to serve students. That's the whole point.

The whole point of this

section of the bill and the others that follow is about how we create a system that opens new choice and new opportunity. It's not about computer companies. In fact, education funding is at the highest level it has ever been, and we're going to make sure it stays that way. This is about giving students choice and opportunity. That's the purpose of this section.

J. Horgan: The minister is then saying that I could not meet the requirements within the Independent School Act, run a school out of my basement providing DL services to the Ministry of Education and, therefore, funnel resources that were destined for the public system into my bank account.

Hon. S. Bond: There is a rigorous process to become an independent school in the province. First of all, they are qualified professionals. Secondly, the process would include a rigorous evaluation process, a series of…. Actually, earning independent school status. At that point, if they were successful in doing that, you have to have operated for a year.

Only then, after all of those rigorous standards, would you be able to apply for 35 or 50 percent funding under independent school status. Independent schools have operated in this province successfully for decades, and we want to simply say we want to find a way to look at how to increase choice and opportunity.

[1545]

There are two separate subvotes. One is the independent school subvote, and one is the public school subvote. That's how those organizations receive their funding.

J. Horgan: That is right to the nub of the issue. You have two subvotes. You have a student in the public system who is funded through a block transfer of moneys from the Ministry of Education to the district where they reside and are getting an education. That student elects to take the minister up on her offer of choice and takes a distributed learning course from the Kootenays.

The money for that course has to be transferred to the Kootenays. Is it coming from the public pocket? Is it coming from some other pocket? As a result, is that a diminishment of resources to the community where the child is spending most of his or her time?

Hon. S. Bond: Public school funding would come out of the public school pot, and independent school funding would come out of the independent subvote.

J. Horgan: If I understand the minister correctly, if my child in district 62 is enrolled in three courses in the public system and elects to take a private course in the Kootenays, the money for that private course will come out of the private school block and not affect the funding to the district in which he resides.

Hon. S. Bond: Funding for public school courses comes out of the public school subvote. Funding for independent schools…. I really want to emphasize the word "independent" schools. They're not private schools; they're independent schools. That's an important distinction for those schools and those people who make that choice. In fact, that would come out of the independent school subvote.

J. Horgan: Then, my son in district 62 would be funded as a fully participating student in district 62, and the funding formula would provide that district with the full amount for his enrolment in district 62. There would be no diminishment on that transfer of funds from the province to the district, even though one of the four courses he's required to take is being taken from an independent provider in another district?

Hon. S. Bond: The funding for public school courses…. If you take three classes or more, that is a full student anyway. The only change is that if you are a distributed learning student, the funding would come from the public school pot, but if you have three classes and are taking them in public school, you receive full funding anyway at that particular school.

J. Horgan: That's good news. I'm pleased to hear that. What happens to the world if the child in a rural…? Let's take a rural district, where there are increasing challenges for districts to manage declining enrolment and meet the needs of students in those districts.

A student enrols. Three of the four courses are being taken through the traditional public school system. That's fully funded — 100 percent funded by the ministry to the district. One course is being taken through the DL program that's being outlined here. In November something happens. Enrolment declines. Someone leaves town. A course is no longer offered. That individual, that student, takes a second course after November.

This is anticipating language further on in the bill. After November, what happens? Is that funding re-

[ Page 4647 ]

duced to the district, or would it be maintained and the second course be funded out of the private pot?

[1550]

Hon. S. Bond: Three courses in a bricks-and-mortar school. We have to be clear about that. If you're enrolled as a student in a bricks-and-mortar school — three courses — full funding follows you. Obviously, we check funding three times throughout the year, and there is a diminishing amount of money as the year is shorter. That adjustment takes place now, and it would continue to take place.

J. Horgan: I thank the minister for bearing with me, because this has been.… I've had numerous calls and e-mails on this question. There's a genuine concern that…. To be candid, the argument is that it's the thin edge of the wedge. If we're privatizing educational services, then that will lead to an erosion of the public process. I get an indication from the minister's responses that that is certainly not the intent.

Even if it was an unintended consequence, there is every indication that the minister and the ministry would take steps to ensure that over the course of the school year, if circumstances dictate that a second or third course were to take place, there wouldn't be a deleterious impact on the district and that school.

While we're still on

section 2, the

section that requires.…

Section 8.1 again: "An authority may provide all or part of an educational program by means of distributed learning only with the prior agreement of the minister." What would you contemplate as an example of that prior agreement?

Hon. S. Bond: Well, in fact, there are a number of expectations. I think the key point — the member for North Coast canvassed this earlier — is this is no change from current practice.

Section 2 approved.

section 3.

J. Horgan: It's with respect to

section 3, subsection (2)(b): "governing eligibility for and the calculation of grants under

section 12." That would be under

section 12 of the Independent School Act. Is that correct?

Hon. S. Bond: Yes, and it reflects no change.

J. Horgan: I'm curious: if there is no change, why are we seeing it in this bill?

Hon. S. Bond: The drafter just completed that section. Subsection (2)(

a) and the other subsections are new, and the drafter just completed by adding the existing legislation.

J. Horgan: We're repealing

section 3, which is amending

section 18 of the Independent School Act by "repealing subsection (2) and substituting the following." Again, if we've repealed subsection (2) and we're "substituting the following," I'm wondering why, if it's no change, we're substituting it.

Hon. S. Bond: I'm not certain why this would be an issue. The draftsperson simply included the sections that are unchanged from the School Act and listed them below the sections that we're changing.

J. Horgan: As I read the bill,

section 3 says "Section 18 is amended (

a) by repealing subsection (2) and substituting the following:" and inventories what that substitution is. As I look at the end, sub-subsection (

g) says "comma and…." Is that the amendment? Is that what we've repealed, and we've added a comma and the "and" — a-n-d?

[1555]

Hon. S. Bond: As I said, subsections (b), (c), (d), (

e) and (

g) remain unchanged, so that would be left, and the rest of the Independent School Act would be following that without change.

J. Horgan: So, then, when we get to subsection (b), "by repealing subsection (3)(b)," which is the part that I was concerned about, it says: "and substituting the following…." So we're repealing the (

b) above and inserting the (

b) below?

Hon. S. Bond: Well, I'm not quite certain how I can say this. My staff has answered the question. The answer is this. The first subsection (2)(

a) and the following subsections are new. The other pieces — (b), (c), (d), (e), (

f) and (g) — remain unchanged and have simply been included by the draftsperson to follow the sections we're changing.

Sections 3 and 4 approved.

section 5.

G. Coons: I just have one question about the

definitions. Under the following added definition of "supervise," it says: "in the context of a teacher…providing an educational program…by means of distributed learning, means to supervise the student's progress through the educational program."

I'm just wondering how that is pictured, with the examples, say, of a student in Oak Bay taking one distributed learning course in the Kootenays and how that supervision will be accessed for the student.

Hon. S. Bond: Well, the definition of "supervise" actually means, in this context, that the school that is offering the program…. The teacher at that site would be the person who does the supervision, monitors and works with the student as they make progress.

G. Coons: Okay, so trying to picture this, again, let's just say that in a school in my riding, a grade 11 class, there are five students taking math 11 through a

[ Page 4648 ]

distributed learning course out of an Oak Bay school. Who's responsible? Who's looking after those five students in the Prince Rupert school who are taking the course from another region or area or virtual school?

[1600]

However, this may be that a student decides they want to be a distributed learning student and takes a course at home. The supervision still is required in terms of the progress of that particular student by the offering school and by the teacher who therein is the supervisor.

G. Coons: I'm sorry if I'm having difficulty grasping this, because I haven't been involved in the DL or virtual school–type situation before. If there are, as I said, five students at Charles Hays Secondary School in Prince Rupert that are, from a certain time every day, taking DL courses from someplace else and they're in a classroom, who's in charge of those students in that school in an isolated situation from the monitoring school that's offering the course?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, in the virtual situation that I sat in on, the teacher of the class that sponsors the course, offers it, is the supervisor of instruction. But there were resources provided in the other school settings to make sure that those students had support and supervision in those sites. The school management is part of how any school would be managed, and those students would be provided with the support and the resources necessary.

G. Coons: In other words, if I have my five students taking a math 11 course virtually and we've got them in a setting, there is supervision for those students from that school, and there is funding for those five students for that supervision component?

Hon. S. Bond: The discussion about how that would be supported, how that would be managed and where those students would, in fact, gather to take those classes would be done as any other class organization is done within a school.

G. Coons: So the staffing would be there to monitor the virtual students?

Hon. S. Bond: Students would be, if they chose to be, in a bricks-and-mortar classroom. Those arrangements would be made as any other class arrangements are made for students within the context of organizing a school.

G. Coons: If there are five students or one student in my local high school taking a virtual course, they will have supervision — that one or those five will have supervision in that school, and it will be funded?

Hon. S. Bond: Those arrangements will be made the same way they are today, where those opportunities are already provided for students. There would be little change to that.

J. Horgan: Of course, now we've put away our Independent School Act, and we're looking at the School Act. It's to do with

section 5(d),

definitions. It says: "'distributed learning school' means a school or francophone school that offers instruction to its students by means of distributed learning only…." I'm wondering if the minister could tell me: if any, what schools are only offering distributed learning now in the public school system?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, that would include the list of nine that the member opposite read off earlier. Those are actually distance learning correspondence schools. That is their primary function. We may want to consider the Electronic Bus which operates in, I believe, the Nechako Lakes school district.

[1605]

J. Horgan: So the distributed learning definition, which outlines only those, is the nine that I listed before. The minister confirms that there are no others at this time?

Hon. S. Bond: Those are certainly the ones that we're aware of, but we know that school districts are being entrepreneurial and innovative all of the time. They are looking at the areas of distance education and distributed learning.

That's why we think the virtual school is an important concept. It will also allow us to make sure that those arrangements are put in place with agreements with the minister, so we will fully know what kinds of courses are being offered, how they're being offered and that there would be standards in place to assure that there is a quality assurance process.

J. Horgan: I thank the minister for that response.

Now it's just a curiosity. Why the language change from distance education to distributed learning? Is there a benefit to that, or is it just a desire to change the look?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, it's really an evolution of distance learning. What it does is broaden the definition to include, in particular, a more direct communication between teachers and students, and it relies more significantly on things like the Internet, teleconferencing and electronic-based delivery. When we think of

[ Page 4649 ]

distance education, that's typically the paper-based correspondence-type program. We think it better captures the kinds of opportunities we'd like our students to have in the virtual school.

J. Horgan: Did the minister just say that this relies on direct communication? As I read the definition, it says "indirect." Did I mishear her?

Hon. S. Bond: Indirect communication.

J. Horgan: I thank the minister. I can't hear as well as I used to.

We've determined that there is a supervision component. That's covered off quite well. I'm wondering if, within

section 5…. We have

definitions; we have a movement to include the francophone school district. All 60 districts are covered by this.

Is there a plan on behalf of the ministry to move aggressively to virtual schools, or is it the plan to, as the minister said, allow districts to be entrepreneurial, to look at solutions that meet their needs in an evolving environment? Or is there a plan to be aggressively pursuing this option as a ministry and as a government?

Hon. S. Bond: We made a commitment to the people of British Columbia to create a virtual school, and we intend to do precisely that. How we're going to do that is by working with the institutions, in particular, that already offer distance learning and, in many cases, distributed learning. We have groups that are already meeting to talk about how to bring this to students in the province.

We've made a commitment. We're going to keep it. We're going to do that in consultation, particularly with those organizations that are already offering distance and distributed learning programs. As I suggested, just the other day I was in one of those schools that had 300 students who were taking their programs on line. Let me tell you, I read some amazing testimonials from those students. We made a commitment, and we intend to keep it.

J. Horgan: You know, when we have the benefit of accessing the Clerk's office to better understand what these clauses mean…. The minister, of course, has the legislative draftspeople within the Attorney General Ministry. Those of us fortunate enough to be in this House have a pretty clear understanding of what we're trying to do here. It doesn't always seem that way, I know, but certainly we've got a leg up on those folks who are watching at home or even those in the gallery.

When the government committed to a virtual school, I know the talk — certainly in coffee row in Langford, where I hang out — was: "Well, is that going to be one school that is accessed by people all across the province?" I said: "No, that's not my understanding." My understanding is that "virtual school" means just what we're discussing here: opportunities that are located in various parts of the province, restricted to this province.

I did ask the question specifically on the Independent School Act amendments, but I'll ask the question now to the minister and phrase it in a way that I think will get to two answers. And that is: (

a) these distributed learning opportunities must be confined to the boundaries of British Columbia, and (

b) when we talk about a virtual school, what we mean is virtual opportunities that aren't confined to one provider but multiple providers.

[1610]

Hon. S. Bond: The vision that we have for the virtual school is capitalizing on the expertise and great programs that exist. We look forward to new programs being created. But we want to make sure that they're streamlined and efficient and that they're top quality for our students.

This is about bringing together the best of those courses from a variety of schools across the province. They'll be part of a collaborative process called the virtual school or some other wonderful name that we decide upon. The bottom line is: this is about new opportunities for students. It is going to take advantage of the expertise we already see in this province in terms of school districts that are doing this and doing it successfully. We simply want to make it easier for students to access and to make sure they have all the choices they could possibly want.

J. Horgan: I agree with the minister that students in this century and those that await us — not us, but our grandchildren and our grandchildren's grandchildren — will require innovation and new approaches to education and a whole host of other activities.

When we're contemplating the virtual school, which I now understand to be services provided in districts that are sharing across boundaries and going through time and space to provide courses where they're not necessarily offered…. The minister used the examples of her community of Prince George.

[B. Lekstrom in the chair.]

When we're preparing or creating this entity or series of entities, what role does the private sector play in this? Would there be inducements to participate? Again, this goes back to the high-tech companies. I don't do this in a frivolous way. The expertise and the ability to create the technologies and the software packages to deliver these programs are in the private sector. They're not in the public school system. What, if any, plan does the minister have in that respect?

Hon. S. Bond: We have no plans for anything that is different than what's happening today. School districts go, and they have experts create programs. In the program I was in most recently, the teachers actually created the programs based on the British Columbia curriculum, and they designed those courses so they could be offered virtually.

We have no grand plans that involve computer companies or anything of that nature. This is about

[ Page 4650 ]

school districts deciding how they can best offer courses to students in a different way. We think that's great news. We think this is going to provide new opportunities. As I've suggested, we're simply going to capitalize on what's already happening in this province and make it easier for students to access those programs.

J. Horgan: I thank the minister. I can interpret from her remarks that the expectation is that these programs and initiatives will continue to come from those that are currently participating in the public school system: our teachers and our teaching assistants and our directors of instruction and various other school board staff — public employees.

Hon. S. Bond: Hon. Chair, there would be no change in that regard from today's practice.

Sections 5 and 6 approved.

section 7.

J. Horgan: I think we touched upon this in earlier sections of the bill with respect to students in grades ten to 12. I just want to be clear here, because now we've got a blurring of independent and public again.

I just want to take a look. If the minister and her staff could read carefully

section 3.1(

a) and (b), which is that the student in ten to 12 shall: "(

a) enroll in one or more educational programs under

section 3, and (

b) in addition to enrolling in one or more educational programs under

section 3, enroll in an educational program offered by an authority under the Independent School Act ."

[1615]

This again goes back to the initial question I asked with respect to amendments to the Independent School Act. Is this confirming in the School Act the changes that were contemplated earlier in this bill?

Hon. S. Bond: Yes.

J. Horgan: For those who may well need to interpret this act based on the discussions we're having today, I'll just say it again so that the minister can confirm that I'm correct that this section,

section 7,

section 3.1 — the remarks that we made and the adventure we had in determining where moneys are coming from — is consistent for this

section as it is consistent with the

section earlier in the bill?

Hon. S. Bond: It's the same thing.

Sections 7 and 8 approved.

section 9.

J. Horgan: We're getting close to moving on here, but with respect to

section 9, again my concern goes back to my in-box and the mail I'm receiving about the challenges that some people suggest these changes will make with respect to the thin edge of the wedge. I'm wondering, with respect to minister-approved programs — this would be

section 9(b), (4.1), "A board may provide all or part of an educational program by means of distributed learning only with the prior agreement of the minister" — what situations are contemplated by that amendment. Or is this existing language?

Hon. S. Bond: Once again, this is not a change to current practice. For example, one of the reasons we would want to make sure this is done in an agreement with the minister is that we want to make sure this adheres to, particularly, the use of British Columbia curriculum. There are expectations about how and when you should be able to offer these kinds of programs. We simply want to make sure that we're able to ensure that those standards are in place.

Section 9 approved.

section 10.

J. Horgan: I just want to confirm that this amendment is amended by striking out "distance education school." Is that part of the language change with respect to distributed learning?

Hon. S. Bond: Can I ask the member to repeat the question, please.

J. Horgan: Certainly, I'm happy to do that for the minister. It's a short section. I'm just confirming that this is merely an amendment to keep language consistent with the new language of distributed learning, as opposed to "distance education school."

Hon. S. Bond: Yes, it is.

Section 10 approved.

section 11.

Hon. S. Bond: I move the amendment to

section 11 standing in my name in the orders of the day.

[SECTION 11, by deleting the text shown as struck out and adding the text shown as underlined:

Section 76.1 is amended

(

a) in subsection (1) by striking out " and" at the end of paragraph (

b) and by repealing paragraph (

c) and substituting the following:

(

c) for grades 4 to 7, 28 students, and

(

d) for grades 8 to 12, 30 students. , and

(

b) by adding the following subsections:

(2.1) Despite subsection (1) but subject to subsection (2.4), a board must ensure that the size of any class for any of grades 4 to 7 in any school in its school district does not exceed 30 students unless

(

a) in the opinions of the superintendent of

schools for the school district and the principal of the school, the organization of the class is appropriate for student learning, and

[ Page 4651 ]

(

b) the principal of the school has obtained the

consent of the teacher of that class.

(2.2) Despite subsection (1) but subject to

subsection (2.4), a board must ensure that the size of any class for any of grades 8 to 12 in any school in its school district does not exceed 30 students unless

(

a) in the opinions of the superintendent of

schools for the school district and the principal of the school, the organization of the class is appropriate for student learning, and

(

b) the principal of the school has consulted

with the teacher of that class.

(2.3) Despite subsections (1) to (2.2) but subject

to subsection (2.4), a board must ensure that any class in any school in its school district does not have more than 3 students with an individual education plan unless

(

a) in the opinions of the superintendent of

schools for the school district and the principal of the school, the organization of the class is appropriate for student learning, and

(

b) the principal of the school has consulted

with the teacher of that class.

(2.4) Subsections (2.1) to (2.3) apply to a board,

in relation to a school year, after the date under

section 76.3 (5) on the report that the board submits

the report for that school year to the minister under

section 76.3 (10) for that school year .

(5) In this section, "student with an individual

education plan" means a student for whom an individual education plan must be designed under the Individual Education Plan Order, Ministerial Order 638/95, but does not include a student who has exceptional gifts or talents.]

Amendment approved.

section 11 as amended.

J. Horgan:

Section 11, as amended, was on the order paper, if I'm not mistaken. If I could just read the amendment so I'm clear. That was striking out

section 11(2.4); adding under

section 76.3(5), "on the report" and striking out the report "for that school year." That was your amendment?

Hon. S. Bond: Yes, and I think it just passed.

The Chair: We are on

section 11 as amended, member.

J. Horgan: Thank you, Chair, for just confirming that. With that, I'd like to move an amendment to

section 11, which I provided to the Clerks as well as to the minister, amending

section 11 (2.2)(b).

SECTION 11, by deleting the text shown as struck out and adding the text shown as underlined:

(2.2) Despite subsection (1) but subject to

subsection (2.4), a board must ensure that the size of any class for any of grades 8 to 12 in any school in its school district does not exceed 30 students unless

(

a) in the opinions of the superintendent of

schools for the school district and the principal of the school, the organization of the class is appropriate for student learning, and

(

b) the principal of the school has

consulted with obtained the consent of

the teacher of that class.]

[1620]

The Chair: On the amendment.

D. Chudnovsky: Thank you.

Interjection.

D. Chudnovsky: Sorry, is there a problem?

The Chair: A point of order.

Point of Order

Hon. M. de Jong: This might help guide the discussions, so perhaps we could settle this early in the proceedings. I think the member has kindly provided a couple of amendments, so if we can get a ruling on this one, then we'll know.

As I understand it, hon. Chair, the proposed amendment would delete the words "consulted with" and replace them with "obtained the consent of."

Interjections.

Hon. M. de Jong: Members are indicating that is the proposed amendment.

The issue that I think the Chair has to be cognizant of is, whilst on the surface the difference between "consult" and "consent" is obviously significant, to the extent that we are dealing with imposing a charge on the Crown, the difference may be particularly significant.

I am certain that the language was chosen carefully here — and it may be language that members opposite disagree with — but in the case of consult, there are obviously different ramifications than requiring the consent. Consent implies that it could be withheld, and, in that circumstance, there would be, obviously, financial implications that flow from having to reconfigure classes.

I think I understand the point that members are trying to make around the amendment, but the rule that I believe the Chair has to be cognizant of is that proposed amendments cannot impose a charge, or the prospects of a charge, being imposed upon the Crown. I'm sure members have thoughts on that, and we might deal with that first.

The Chair: I will recognize the member on the point of order.

J. Horgan: Thank you, hon. Chair, and I thank the Government House Leader for his comments.

As I read the act,

section 11,

section 2.1(b): "the principal of the school has obtained the consent of the teacher of that class.". If we could consent in clause (b), why couldn't we consent in clause 2.2(b)? The minister has said and the government has said there will be no new money to implement this piece of legislation so, therefore, if there's no new money required for consent for four to seven, why would there be any new money required nor consent for eight to 12?

I think it's a reasonable amendment. I think it's one that protects the children in our classrooms. It protects teachers, and it provides administrators with certainty

[ Page 4652 ]

that when they are sitting down with teachers and parents and others that are providing educational services, if that's language that's more appropriate for the people on that side, then there's certainty with respect to consent. There's not certainty with respect to consult.

The rationale for the amendment is to provide all of the stakeholders, all of the partners some degree of certainty that when class sizes are being determined at the start of the year…. We go into some significant detail in this

section of the bill, hon. Chair. As you're contemplating and considering the appropriateness of this amendment, I think you have to take into account that if it's appropriate for four to seven to consent, why wouldn't it be appropriate for eight to 12?

The Chair: Member for Vancouver-Kensington on the point of order.

D. Chudnovsky: Sorry, Chairperson. I'm ready to speak. I'm assuming that you've ruled by not immediately answering.

Hon. M. de Jong: We need a ruling first.

Point of Order

(Chair's Ruling)

The Chair: The Chair will rule first.

On the point of order, having looked at the amendment, I have found that it imposes a charge on the Crown; therefore, the amendment is out of order.

J. Horgan: You're pathetic.

The Chair: Member, take your seat, please.

Member, I would ask you to withdraw your comments.

J. Horgan: Thank you, hon. Chair. I didn't realize that the microphone was on. If I have offended anyone in this House, I certainly withdraw those comments. My concern, however, hon. Chair….

The Chair: Member, order. Just take your seat.

We are back on

section 11 as amended.

[1625]

Debate Continued

J. Horgan: I have an amendment to

section 11, which I provided to the Clerks as well as to government members with respect to

section 2.3. It reads as follows. In section (2.3):

[(

b) the principal of the school has consulted with

obtained the consent of the teacher of that class.]

Point of Order

The Chair: I recognize the House Leader on a point of order.

Hon. M. de Jong: Members won't be surprised that the point of order is the same.

I hasten to add that I understand there is a difference of opinion about whether or not it is more appropriate to seek consent versus to consult. They mean different things. The point on the point of order is that one, however, carries with it the prospect of additional costs being accrued. The other does not.

[S. Hawkins in the chair.]

While the debate around the use of the terms can continue, the amendment itself, which risks the possibility of a cost accruing to the Crown, exists in one and not the other. For that reason, I would seek to have the similar ruling invoked on this amendment as it was invoked earlier.

D. Chudnovsky: I want to explore, if I might, the reasoning that was put forward by the hon. House Leader in defence of the point of order. I'm not going to speak to the merit of the case of the amendment. I want to speak to the argument that was made on the point of order. I want to explore with the Chair and with the members opposite what I consider to be the lack of logic of the point of order.

Government has been clear with the people of the province and the members of this House on many occasions that there isn't any additional funding available for the implementation of this bill. We on this side disagree with that and will continue to express our disagreement, but government has written the bill and has brought it before the House.

It strikes me, Madam Chair and members opposite, that it's a logical inconsistency for this point of order to have been put forward. If there is no money available and government is the source of money, then how is it that this amendment can require money of the Crown? I would submit that though we disagree strongly with the notion that there isn't money available to implement this bill, that's the position government has taken. Given that that's the position government has taken, it is logically inconsistent for this point of order to stand. It must fail.

Point of Order

(Chair's Ruling)

The Chair: Members, the Chair wishes to rule on the point of order.

For the same reasons as the previous amendment, the Chair is ruling that this amendment is out of order, as this amendment does pose a potential charge on the Crown.

Debate Continued

J. Horgan: I'd like to move an amendment to this section, which I provided to the Clerks and also to the minister and her staff. It would be amending

section 11 by adding, after

section 2.4, the text that goes as follows:

[ Page 4653 ]

[ Class sizes shall be reduced by one (1) student

for the first two (2) students with special needs (including students with identified special needs, ESL students or other students as determined by the board) and by a further one (1) if a third special needs student is added, and by a further one (1) for each subsequent special needs student added. ]

[1630]

Point of Order

Hon. M. de Jong: Again, appreciating the interests and intent of the member, I won't belabour the point. I think that in this case, it is clear, even by virtue of the logic the previous member employed, that there are cost implications to what is being proposed in the amendment amendment, so that whilst there can be a healthy debate around the numbers and whether they are appropriate — and I'm sure that the member will engage in that debate — any specific amendment that would purport to reduce the class-size numbers has obvious cost ramifications and would post a charge against the Crown. For that reason, the amendment, I would suggest must fail.

I do want to emphasize to the member, this is not designed to somehow truncate debate around the appropriateness of the numbers that have been selected, and I believe and hope there will be a debate around that fact.

J. Horgan: I thank the Government House Leader for his comments. Again, although we seem to be on faulty logic here, if the government has said that there should be no net costs to putting a cap on class sizes four to seven with consent or class sizes eight to 12 with consultation, why would it then be an extension to assume that if we are amending class size and class composition that there would be a cost?

I don't understand how the government can say on one day and on one

section of the bill that there will be no net new resources for school boards to deliver programs in our communities, to provide educational services and opportunities for our children, and to ensure that parents are comfortable that they're getting the best possible outcomes for their kids. I don't know why you could have no cost with the bill as it's written, and then somehow, when an amendment is proposed to enhance and improve upon that legislation, based upon inputs from experts and others — the B.C. Association for Community Living, numerous others…. The B.C. Confederation of Parent Advisory Councils has also expressed reservations and concerns about this section.

We're only offering up an amendment so that this Legislature can debate those issues fully and frankly. We had no intention with this amendment or the previous two of increasing costs to the province or increasing costs to school boards. We're only trying to find the optimum outcome with respect to special needs students right across the province. That's the intent here. Nowhere in this amendment do I suggest for a minute that there need be any expenditure by the Crown. I'm merely trying to improve upon legislation that was brought forward by this government with the express purpose of not increasing the education budget.

It seems to me that the logic on this side of the House is working, and the logic on that side of the House is not.

Interjection.

Point of Order

(Chair's Ruling)

The Chair: Member.

The Chair rules this amendment out of order for the same reason, that it imposes a charge on the Crown.

Member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca on

section 11 as amended.

Debate Continued

J. Horgan: I have an additional amendment I'd like to read to the Legislature, and it goes as follows.

SECTION 11, by adding, after 2.4 the text shown as underlined:

For classes composed only of students with

individual education plans, (including ESL) a board must ensure that any class in any school in its district does not exceed 8 students. ]

Point of Order

Hon. M. de Jong: I raise the similar point of order and would only add this: it is incumbent upon governments, all governments, to ensure that legislation it introduces…that governments operate in accordance with the legislation that they have tabled.

The concern here again is the possibility, with the change in wording that the member's advocating, of charges being accrued against Crown, and the remainder of my submissions on this point of order would be the same as in previous proposed amendments.

D. Chudnovsky: I want to, if I may, resubmit the argument that we made. I think it's important that it has been made from this side of the House. I think it's important to say once again that while we disagree with the government's position — strongly disagree and are not shy about it — nor will we stop talking about it at the appropriate time and place, it is the government's position that there will be no additional resources available for this legislation.

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Given that the government has stated that there will be no additional resources, it is, in our view and in our submission, logically inconsistent for representatives of government to stand before the House and bring forward a point of order that suggests that there will be a charge against the Crown if the government itself has said that it won't pay those charges.

[ Page 4654 ]

Point of Order

(Chair's Ruling)

The Chair: Hearing no more speakers, members, the Chair rules that this amendment is out of order as it has the potential of imposing a charge on the Crown.

Member for Vancouver-Kensington on

section 11 as amended.

Debate Continued

D. Chudnovsky: I wonder if I might ask some questions of the minister on this section. I wonder if the minister could tell the House why it was that the government, the minister, the drafters of the legislation chose to use the notion of consent with respect to overages on the limits for kindergarten to grade seven, and chose to use the notion of consult for grades eight to 12?

Hon. S. Bond: Well first of all, as we have said on numerous occasions about this bill, we were trying very hard to strike a balance between what is flexible and allows choice and what also addresses some of the pressure points that had been expressed by members of the provincial Learning Roundtable. There was very clearly a sense that at grades four to seven, we needed to address that in a particular way — possibly by looking at class-size numbers.

In fact, throughout the whole course of the discussion about class size and composition issues, no one has found a magic number which actually works for every classroom, every child and every teacher in the province. So, in fact, the decision after the discussion — extensive discussion at the round table — was to ensure that there were class-size maximums at grades four to seven and to leave room for flexibility and choice, but include consistent consultation with teachers across the province in the secondary grades.

D. Chudnovsky: I've been present a number of times and have been engaged in debate with the minister a number of times around issues of staffing, class composition and class size. In particular, on the Education estimates which concluded a couple of weeks ago, there was a lot of discussion about the process by which classes are set and staffing is done. In all of those discussions the minister put forward the notion that it is professionals who make those decisions.

In fact, the minister will recall that a number of particularly difficult class sizes and particularly difficult class compositions were put before her in estimates. On each occasion the minister explained that situation by pointing out to those who were participating in those estimates debates that the reason those particularly difficult class sizes and compositions were in place was because professionals had made the decision to set those classes up in that way. Those professionals are professionals who teach all the way from kindergarten to grade 12.

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Is it the case that the government believes that the professional judgment of secondary teachers — grades eight to 12 — is any less valuable or any less legitimate than the professional judgment of elementary teachers from kindergarten to grade seven? That's certainly the impression that's given by the difference between the term consult and the term consent.

Hon. S. Bond: Absolutely not. In fact, the member opposite would know very well that there are very different complexities when organizing classrooms in the secondary school classrooms than there are in grades four to seven.

This isn't about being professional. In fact, this bill tries to capture and deal with an issue that we heard about from teaching professionals at the Learning Roundtable over and over and over again. It captures the concept that there was not consistent consultation with the professionals who are in our classrooms across the K-to-12 sector in the entire province.

The bill is an attempt to bring balance to a very complex issue. There is no magic class-size number, particularly in the secondary school classrooms. We know that across the province, teachers and professionals make decisions every year about how students are organized in classrooms to focus on student choice and flexibility. This bill represents the best and the largest degree of consensus that we could find with all of the partners in education at the Learning Roundtable.

D. Chudnovsky: The minister is right about one thing, and that is that I am well aware of how classes are configured, of the processes that are gone through and of the complexity and difficulty of doing the very best we can for every student in every classroom across the province.

That's why, when we're faced with thousands — not hundreds — of oversized classes in secondary schools, it is a surprise and a disappointment that the minister would put forward legislation that she clearly states she believes will result in teachers, students and parents being less confident that those oversized classes in secondary will be dealt with than in elementary.

It's clear from the minister's statements here in the last minutes that the expected result on the part of this government from this bill is that the difficulties in class size and composition at the secondary level will be less able to be dealt with because of the wording of the bill.

The question I have for the minister is: why would a government choose to do that? Why would a government choose to set up a situation in which we are less able to deal with the problems of class size and composition at the secondary level than we are at the elementary?

Hon. S. Bond: Well, I think it would be very interesting to hear the member opposite describe and define the word "oversize." With all of the partners at the Learning Roundtable for five meetings — for hours and days spent together — no one could define…. No,

[ Page 4655 ]

that's not accurate actually. There was one particular group that had a strategy for class sizes. In fact, there was no consensus about class size numbers in grades eight through 12.

The absolutely prevailing thought at the round table in grades eight to 12 was: how do we make sure that our students have choices? How do we make sure that classrooms actually look at balancing the needs of our students so that, yes, you can have one of the thousands — and I would repeat thousands — of small classes in this province balanced off by a slightly larger class?

In fact, we listened to what we heard at the round table. Parents had a very strong view about what, for example, should happen in grades eight to 12. We value those views. We think that making sure we preserve the ability to have flexibility and choice in grades eight to 12 is critical. We've also said in a

section that we will debate at some point…. Maybe that one will go with less debate. We've said that we want to move forward with this bill and that there's more work to be done.

One of the things we've committed to in this legislation is saying: "Let's go back during the next year and look at these amendments and see what other work can be done." This best represents what we heard at the round table from all of the partners.

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N. Macdonald: The use of the term "flexible" as a principle…. That often would be an invitation to confusion. I think what you need to do is be really clear in exactly what you mean by consult, in terms of consultation, because what I think would be appropriate is if you went to consent, where it was clear.

The question I have for the minister is this: if the principal of the school needs to consult with the teacher, what exactly does that mean? Is it something that can be verbally given? Is it something given in the hallway? Is it something that the teacher needs to go into the office of the principal and sit down for? Does it need to be written? You need to be very clear in exactly what you mean by consultation.

Hon. S. Bond: I think one of the things that we did hear at the round table consistently and one of the things we had consensus about was the fact that it is important for people to talk to each other. That doesn't just include the principal and the teacher and the superintendent. It actually includes parents.

What does "consult" mean? It means that we need to find a way to deliberate with one another, to sit down, to ask for advice, to consult and to have that conversation. In fact, one of the other commitments that we made at the round table was that this was an issue that we would have further discussion about.

It's interesting to note that the member opposite, as a principal, would take the word "flexible" — that it would create confusion — and the word "consult"…. As a parent, I can assure you that what I want most for my students is for them to be able to have as much choice, as much opportunity, as much access as possible, and that was clearly reflected by numerous partners at the table.

N. Macdonald: You're putting forward a law that is going to be used….

The Chair: Through the Chair, member.

N. Macdonald: The minister is putting forward a bill that will become law, that will be used by the people on the ground. What you're talking about is politics. You want the language of flexibility. You want to say these things, but the minister needs to be clear what exactly is meant by consultation, because somebody is going to have to go and consult with the teachers. You want a principal to do that. Have you thought through exactly how that works?

It should be the same in every school. You talk about flexibility. At some point, this is going to be sorted out. It will be sorted out either by lawyers through a grievance procedure which will apply to this bill, or it will be clearly stated by the minister. What does consultation mean? Does the