Volume XLI Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 18 22 June 1989

The House met at 2:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! Oral Questions MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 1"1r. Speaker, my question is for the . hon. thE! PrEnn:ier. Over thE! last couple of days the Premier has been bljndsiding and snookering the people by, as I indj .cated, preaching one thing on potE!nttal conflict of -.interest in this House and then practicing another. Mr .

Speaker, on June 19, in response to questjons by me, the Prernir:!r said, and I quote from Hansard, "I have done, u.Jit.h respect to Lhe han. member" referring to the hon . mE!mber for Windsor ·-- Buchans (Mr. Flir:3ht) "pr'E!Ci.SE!ly J;.Jhat I asked '\:.hE• forrnE•r ' Premier to do with Dr. Collins, ask him t:o resign or dispose of the asset, onE! or the other . That IJJas the reqUE!St .. " Now, Mr.

SpeakE!r, lE!t rnE! takE! thE! han. the PrerniE•r back to June 2, 1988 Hansard, when the Premier, th E!n LE!a der of th e OpposiLi.on , said thE! foJ.lowing: 11 But I said clear -ly to thE! media that I did not blame the MinistE!r of Health, I blame the PrE!Inier'. If the Premier says that i L :j s okay, then what I complain about is that the~ L910 June 22, 1989 Vo1 XLI standard is unacceptable ." Now, Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is this: How can thE!

Premier argue that that standard was una c c e pta b 1 E! on June 2 , 1 9 8 8 , yet admit publicly, on June 18, 1989, in The Sunday Express that both circumstances were similar, 1..uhen thE! only thing that has changE!d in that period of tirnt:1 is that the Premier has moved from here to over there? How can he argue that? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han . the PrE !JTI:iE!r . PREMIER WELLS: I do not. The LeadE!r of l.h t=- Opposition is not stating it accurately. He has rE!ad corr 'ec tly 1..uhat I askc>d fanner Pr em:i.E!r PE!ckford to do, eH .·.her have Dr.

Collins resign or dispo se oF th1 ?. asset., onE• or thE! cd .. hE!r'. HE! could not maintain a situa tion wher e his company wa s negoti 3l.in g leAses with the government and enter:i.ng into business deals wjth the government and stil l be in the CabinE!t. To the hon. thE! member for W:indsor ' - Buchans I said exa ctly Lhe sallie thing.

And I say :it. agajn notJJ : You cannot havo a si.l:ual :ion tAJhur'E! you are doing business with l.h e govt:'rnment and you rE!rnain in the Cabinet, where your company does bu sin ess w:il:h !:he govE•rnrn unl:. tAJi ri .l.c:! you remain in the Cabinet. [j ther you dispose~ of l:he assE:d:, or you resjgn, or you 't:E!rrn inate th e lease. The lease cannot be rE!/1E!I..Ued. NotAl t.hat is exa ct 1y and prec-.isE!ly thE! samE• as I askE!d of No. 18 R910

Dr. Collins. It is totally exactly the same. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. PREMIER WELLS: The han. members opposite can say no all they want, the rea] i ty is true. They can say no all they want, the reaJ.ity is true, it is exactly the same standard, so there is nothing to explain, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: If the reality is true. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. the Leader of thE! Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, I say to the PrerniE!r, as he said to then Premier Peckford, I do not blame th~~ Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, I blame the Premier. Now, Mr.

SpeakE!r, lE!l: me ask thE! PrE!TniE!r this: Is it not a fact that when the present minister informed the Premier on this matter, of this parl:icular 1uasr::• bE!forE! hj s appointmE!nt to Cabinet, is it not a fact: that the Premier did not then order the minister to dispose of those assets within thlnE!E! months, but that the thr·ee month dE!cr'(:•e only carnE! down aFtur thE! story was E!XpOSE!d in The Sunday Express? Is that not the real fact, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKE!~: Th< 0! han. t.he PrE!ITiier . 1.. 9 11 June 22, 1989 . Vol XLI PREMIER WELLS: No, Mr.

Speaker, that is not the fact. I never did direct the thrE!e months, before he IAJa s appointed or since. SOME HON. MEMBERS : No . PREMIER WELLS: Read thE! record in the HouSE! the other day, and what the rE!Cord in the House will clearly indicate is that I said to the minister you cannot remain in l:.h£~ Cabinet and negotiate that lease. Thai: lease .is th~~re now, thE! lease cannot be reneiJJr~d if you rerna:i.n in thE! Cabinet. If you want to renew that lease you must resign from the Cabinet. The rrdn:i.ster h:imSE!lf set the threE! rno nth s tan dar· d .

And if the hon. the Lea der of Lh e Opposition cares to look at Hansard of the last coupJ.e of days, he will see that I said clE!arly the or·ig.inaUon of t.hat :i.dE!a came from the minis l:.E!r himSE!lf. I d:id not ask t:hat of the rn:i.nistE•r. And I have told thE'! media E!Xact]y the same thing in an interview. l did no t s e t the t h r·· E! E! mo n t h ~ .. Frankly, the standard l~hal: I sot for thE! minister IAJas, 1 You cannot r E! n E!W l: hat 1 E! as c~ .

It is d CHl t:! , i l: :i.s jn pJ.ace, it IJJas done• bPfOI"E' you were elE!CtE•d, :i.l:. was done:! bt::!fore you WE!nt into Cab:1net, bul:: you cannot renew that lease and remain in the Cabinet. So you rnake your choiCE! as to IJJhat you want to do. It: 1.1..1as Uw rrdnist.E!r' himself who dec:i.dc•d he IJJas ijOing to sEd~ the standard of 'lhr'E!e months l:o gel: r··:L d of it. rhr'l t i.s what I explained to the House. MR. RIDEOUT : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPFAKER: No. 18 1~9 11

The hon. the Leader of thE! Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, I specifically asked the Premier in this House this week: Did the minister have sixteen months l:o dispose of those assets and allow the lease to expire, as the minister himself indicated in The Sunday Express story, or did he not? The PrE!mier specifically said that he did not not, he had three months. Now, here is the quote: "No, he does not. He has to do it within three months." Now, will the Premier tell this House what is the case? MR. SIMMS: Make up your mind . MR. RIDEOUT: Does thE! mi.ni ster have sixt een months?

Is thE! leasE! going to be al]owed to E!Xpire? Or as t.hE! Premier, after the fact, given the minister three months to dispose of the assets? SOME HON. MEMBFRS : Hear, hE !ar! MR. SPEAKER: Th e ha n. the Prernir:?. r. PREMIER WEL LS: I hav e not given the mi nis ter th ree mo nth s no w . Wh at I have sa id to the minister is you cannot rc: •new tha t lE!aSE! and stay in th e Ca binE !t. That is wh at: I to ld t:hE! rnints tE!r. Now , it wa s r:he mini ster lJJho se t thE! t.hrE !e---month standard.

If you want to consult with the news media, and consult al l of Han sard, you will find that I c~xplaim~d it wa s the minist er who set that standard, not me . I did not set L912 Jun E! 22, 1989 Vo J. XLI thE! thrE!E! months. When you askE!d that, the minister had told me, so I said, 1 Yes, he has three months. He told me he was going to do 'it in threE! months, so I accepted that. 1 I have not sc:•t that standard . MR. RIDEOUT : That is what The Express said . PREMIER WELLS: Well., if that is what is thE!re, it is incorrect. The three months came from the minister . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

SpeakE!r. MR . SPEAKER : The han. the Lead<" r of Uw Oppo si t.ion. MR. RIDEOUT: ThE! rE!Cord we haVE! to go on, and l:he peo plE! of this Pro vince havE• to go on, are the Form al transcripts of the House . Now, the Premier has sajcJ here quj te clE!ar·l y, 11 No, hE! doc :!S not . 11 In othE!r words, hE! is not: al1olAJE'd Lo let th e leas e run For sixteen mon ths, he has got t.o cance1 j_t, he has got: to gE!t r'i.d of il:, and hE! has t.h rE!E! months t.o do it. He has to do it wit hin threE! monLhs . NotJJ, is that a fac t or :Ls that no l a fac t? Whi ch is i t? MR. SPEAKER : ThE• hon. thE! Prem :LE!r .

PREMIER WELLS: No! No! No! a is 11 (J l:. a Fd c l:. NotAl' I ca nno t m akE:~ :i. t any C J. E! d l" E• I" l:han tha l:. MR. IUDEOUT : Mr. Speaker . No. 18 R9J2

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, Hansard, June 19' Yes! 1989, I say to \:he Premier: Yes! Yes! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Now, Mr. Speaker, if the Premier cannot read I will read it for him. 11 Premier Wells: No, hE! does not . He has to do it within three months.'' Now, is it. three months, is it sixter:.~n months, or what is it? Or is this anothE!r case of jackrabbiting around by the Premier and hE! doe~; not knouJ u1hat he stands for? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIEI~ WELLS: Mr. SpeakE!r·, I do not know why he is having such difficulty it.

The minister 'I undc::•rtake to do understanding hirnsE!lf said, it in threE• the House he do it because not me. I standard. months.' So I ·told has thrc~e months to he set the standard, did not set \:he SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no! PREMIER WELLS : ExcuSE! ITIE!, Mr ·. Speaker·! The answer is, he set the standard, and I have told that either to the H o us e or l: he mE! d i a -- I have forgotten uJh::i .ch -- on thE! di.il.y concerned. So he ha s three months and he SE!t that standard. I did not. I tol.d the Jninisi:E!r, Mr.

SpeakE!r, that he could not rene1.u l:hat le asE!, he could not negotial:E• a business deal with the L913 June 22, 1989 Vol XLI government. There are sixteen or seventeen months, whatE!ver it is, left to run on the lease. So he kn~~ that he could not negotiate a renewal of that leaSE! or he uJOuld have to resign. The min:istE!r satd to rne, 'I arn going l:o terminate~ tl'lE! 1E!dSe. ThE! choice I haVE! takE!I1 is I a1r1 go:.Lng to terminatE! the l1;:!ase w:i thin three months. ' If hE! can do :i. t:, fine.

So when the questions WE!re as ked with regard to houJ J.ong hE! had, I said, 'He has thr·oe mon Lhs to do it.' That :i.s uJhat: he to]d rne, that he was going l:o do :it within three months. I accepted it:. MR. SIMMS: That is not what it says her e. It says he has to do il: lAJithin thrE!E! months. PREMIER WELLS : Well, that: is okay . rnonths t.o do it . MR. SPEAKER: liE! has t:hr·er::! The hon. the l..E!adei~ or l~h E! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr . SpE!aker, J.E!t rne r'E•fer· the Premier l:o page L'753 in the June 19, 1989 Hansard where he wAs responding l:o a qucsl:ion by 1r1e.

The Oppositi.on HousE• LE'ader· ~;ays, "i·i E! has six teen 1no nth s . 11 T 1·1 C! Premier then comes back, def'in:U:ively, 11 No, h1'! ciO(!S not:. !·IE! has to do it wJthJn three rnonths. 11 Now, does LhE· rTJ(Wtber haVE! sixteE!n months, or thr'E!E! months? And, more specifically, M r . S p E• a k E! r , h OIAJ Call t·. h f! p r· E' ITI :i.E! I" stand thc•r'E!, day after day i.n this House, whE!n hE! pont:i.ficat:ecl <u·ound this Province that not even a p o t: E' n t i a 1 of c o n f J.:i. c t of :i. n t: e r· e s l: could E!Xist in his govennnenl:? How can hE! stand thE!re and squ:irrn No. 18 1~91. 3

and try to get out from underneath his own words in the official record of this House? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I do not squirm and I have no intention of squirming. I will tell the hon. members and eVE!rybody in this Province thE! simple, straightforward truth. Now I will go through it once more. If they are so thick-headed that they can not do it or so stubborn that they do not IJJant to do it, I will go through it - MR. RIDEOUT: Do you think you are the only one with sense in here?

PREMIER WELLS: Well, there :is not much indication of it coming from the other side, I must say that. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar! PREMIER WELLS : Now, Mr. Speaker, when the ministE !r was invitE!d to join thE! Cabinet he told me about the lease in Buchans, and I said to him, 1 You cannot rE!new that lr:!ase and rernai.n in thE! Cabinet. The lE!ase must E!nd noiJJ, you cannot do it. 1 rhE! lease is in place. He cannot terminate it. He has no unilateral right to terminate it. MR. SIMMS: He cannot terminate it? MR .

SPEAKER: As far as I know, he has no unilateral right to terminate it . '-9 14 June 22, 1989 Vol XU He was going to seek to terminate it within three months, which is what he told the House, what he told rne the other day. Now I do not know whether he can achieve it or not. But you cannot just IJJipE• out something when you entE!r j nto an agreement with somebody. I understand that and the han. members opposite should. So I told the minister he could not remain in the CabinEd: and negotiatE! a continuation or· a renewal of that lease.

It was donE. ~, it IJJas J.n place before he carne into the Cabinet, and that is it. He cannot renew it. I will explain it. Let us look at the IJJhole Hansar·d of June 19, nol: pick out a fE!LlJ wolnds and distor-t_ the truth. Look at L'/~)1, this is where I spelled it out. I was ansWE!rinq a question: 11 It is easy to explain, just state the fact_~; correctly . The facts are simple. The position that I took with respect to Dr. Collins and his si .tuation at the tirne wc~s that hE• E• i the r must r E! sign or he must dispose of thE! assE!'lS _ 11 And the han .

ITIUmbers oppos:it..c• agreed and noddtc!d ,:,nd dppi''UV t.!d , including the Leader of the Opposition, and the HouSE! LE!ddE!r' and that :i.s exactly thE! pos:i.l.ion that I took with Dr. Co llins. 11 So when the hon . rnE!tnber for' Windsor - Buchans told me what his s:i.tuation IJ.Jas, 1ny s{~a.t_C:!ITiunl ·.: l.o h'L1n was you must dis pose of those assets , or the 11 - then t h ~=·In E! U.Jd s an interruption.

I went on to expla-in, 11 You rnus'l:. d.i,spoSE! of thO SE! aSS E!t.S , 01" l::hE• gover'lliTIE!IlL 01" any agency of the qovernrnent cannot do any bus:i nPss w-:i.t.h tha l~ company, you cannot continue l:.hat rent, or you rnust resign. One of those three things must occur. 11 NoLI.J that is not VE!ry cJ.ear· ther·u, No . 18 1\9 lt~

I must say, but just read on: 11He took the position that he would take steps11 - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: Listen now! MR. RIDEOUT: Are you going to read the whole Hansard or what? PREMIEI~ WELLS: WE!11, I am going to truth. I know that read the member is not interested in truth, he is just interested trying to make a bit of noise. thE! hon. the in Listen now, it is here. the record. It is on 11He took the position that he would take steps immediately to dispose of the asset. He has assurE!d JTIE! that is preciSE!ly IAJhat h~:! is do'.ing.

He knows that iF the asset i.s not d:isposed of, and hE! has been told this, before the lease expirE•s, this leaSE! cannot bE· r'"n~:!IAJE!d. 11 NoJAJ that is what r said. That. is what. I t:old hirn. He had t.akE!n the position that he JAJill Ed ther dispoSE! of :i.t within three months, that time he has allotted himself. Now that is - MR. RIDEOUT: That is what you say. PI~EMIER WELLS: The colflments the han. 111ember rE!ferrE•d to L'71)3 appE!ar lator than that. when he was told exactly what the situation was. MR. IUDEOUT: That is what you are saying ho said. That is not what he said pubJ.icly.

L.915 JunE! 22, 1989 Vol. XLI PREMIER WELLS: I do not know what h~::~ said publicJ.y. I haVE! no idE!a IAJhat. hl=! said publicly. I can only tell you 1.11hat hE! toJ.d me he JAJas go:l.ng to do. MR. SIMMS: Who said earlier today he had sixteen months? PREMIER WELLS: Well, that is the position thal: I gave you. You asked me what I instructed, and I instructed that the lease could not be renE!IAJE!d or· he would haVE! l:o rE!Sign. H1:;! h:imseJ.f set the standard of thJ~eE! months, as I advisE!d thE• House on the 19th of June, and it: :.i.s r:ight there. So what \:he hon. l':he LeadE!r of thE!

Opposition has done is mi s rep res en l: e d l: he p o s .it ion , skipped OVE!r tha-t:, and gonE• on Lo page L71)3, to say that it:. Luas my stand. NoL.IJ be fair, ,.~E:!ad the tol:.a] record. It .is thE!re Lo be soen. 11 HE! has taken thE' p o s :.L t :i on that: h H l,o..ri1l either· disposE~ of it ,,~r.i.l':h.in l h r E~ e ITl o n t h s --· l:. he t. :i HIe t hat h E" has alloted for h.illlSE!1F --ur he IAJ:i].J. SeE•k t.J·il'! t:E!IAIIl=i.naLion Ot. l.hc• lease, by agr·eelTIE!nt, IAril:h l:h1:• Board of Liquor ControJ..

Now he cannot caus1:• it l:o be:• t.r:!l"lntnatnd because a JeaSE! is a ·t·:IAIO-·IAJay agreement, bol:h paJ~t.ies agr1:;!e. ~3o he knoL.IJs he must EdthE!r res::ign c:>r' that: 1r:'ase cannot be r'E•nE!IAJE!d. HE• a] so hi'ls indica'lE!d to !liE'' Lha l: hu i n t e n d :; l: o s e E! k t E! i" 1 n :i n a l: oL o n o f l:: h ,,. lease if hE! cannot: dj.spoSE! or Lhe assE~t in thE! rneanl::ii'ne. 11 MR. SIMMS: We all have Hansards. PREMIER WELL~>: Yes, you a11 helve Hansard, but that is not thE! st:ory the LE!aciE:•r of the Opposition tried to lead No. 18 f\91.~)

everybody else to believe . There is the truth of the matter. It is there. MR. RIDEOUt: The story is your double standard. PREMIER WELLS: There is no double standard, and the members do not like it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. RIDEOUT: You preach one thing and practiCE! something else. You are a walking contradiction and the people are seeing through you. MR. DOYLE: Mr. SpeakE!r. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the mE:~mber For Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want i:o follow up on that same J.jne of questionjng with the Pre rni e r , bE! causE! it is s t. i 11 v E!

In y , very unclear what the Premier's intentions are when it comes to establishing an acceptable code of ethics for his ministers to f o J 1 OL\J, and that j s t. hE! i. s sue her· e whether the Premier wants to admit jt or not. Are we now to bE!l.ieVE! that the same SEd: of ru1E!S that the Premier applied to the members who are ovr:!r herE! now today when we wer(• rninistE!rS, arE' WE! now to believe that the same set of rules he then applied to us now no longE:'r apply to his own govr::ornlflent. mjnistE!rs?

LE!t me ask him would it not be more acceptable to thE! public of Newfoundland and Labrador for him to ask the Minister of Forestry to step aside until this conflict of interest L916 Jum~ 22, 1989 Vol XU matter is settled? If it takE!S a weE!k, fine, if it takes a month, fine, and if it takes a year, fine. Will he not ask the minister to step aside here today, now, until this conflict of interest matter is settled once and for alJ., so the PrE!Trd E!r can be a little bit consistent in what he says and what he does? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Prern:i E!r .

PREMIER WELLS : ThE!re were l:wo quostions, Mr. Speaker. The first quest::Lon that. the han. member as kE!d t.oas 1..uoul.d I apply the same standard that I asked the Premier of the day l:.o appJ.y whE!n I saL on the opposite::~ sidE! of the House. rhe iHlSL\JE!r l:u that is that is precise]y the standard that I have app1ied. rhe minister rnust dispose of the asset or eliminatE! thE! lease, ho cannot renE!W the 1E!ase, or UlE! m:.in:i.ster must: resign. That is the standard pr·ecjsely that I asked the rOJ"IIlCr' PrE:'ITI:ier l:o FoLlow. rh(:! foJ"iJ'Wr' Promier sa:.i.d, 'No, l:hat: :i~~ alr·ight.

I 1ookE!d at it c'l.nd he~ can contjnue to do business. Some ol ·:her dirE!Ci:OJn of the compdny did thf! negot:i.at:ions. That: :.i.~; okay. The minister tAJi .ll make Jllany thousands of dollars profit out: of doing business with the goVE!rnrnE!lll, but that :i.s okay because I say it is okay.' I ·;did to the PreJniE!r, 'That. j s not okay. The minister cannot s i l:. in thE! Cal:.dnE•t. and haVE! a par· LneJ" of his negotiat E:! a lea se Fo1n hL111.

That: is lAJrong.' The Min:i.stE•r· of Forestry and Agriculture knows that t:hat 1easE:' cannot be~! r~E!nC~!lAJed, it: must end, that is lAJhat I t.old hirn first, or· he rnus l:. r'E•s:Lgn. He himself, as I explained in the No. 18 R91.6

House, which the han. the Leader of the Opposition conveniently overlooked, set the standard of disposing of it in three months, and for that I commend the minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! PREMIER WELLS: for and the I t hi n k it wa s a nob 1 e t hi n g him to do and it showed a good proper standard, one which han. members opposite would agree to when they sat hE!re, thought it was a1right for ministers to continue on. not the:~y their MR. RIDEOUT: You did not when you sat over here . PREMIER WELLS: I most certainly did . It was the standard that I set.

It is a completely consistE!nt standard and the members do not J.ike it. That is t:oo bad. Thc:~rE! tJJas a second part to the question but I have forgotten now what it was. MR . BAKER: Would you ask the m:in:ister to stE!p aside? PREMIER WELLS: Oh! Wou]d I ask thE! rnin:i.ster to stE!p as'i.dr:•? rhc:! ansWE!r' :is, no, I will not ask the minister to step asjde, because he is doing precisely what I asked that Dr. CoJ.J.j.ns do, dispose of the asset or resign. He is j n the process of dj sposing of it. I cornrnencl t:he m:inist:er For it.

I think hi ~:: actions an:• highly commendable . 2_0M l~._ti o !~L __ ~!~.~~.SJ .~.~ : H(:~ar, hear·! MR. ~)PEAKER: L91 7 June 22, 1989 Vo 1 XLI The han. the member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, this is totally unbelievable. We cannot believe over here on this side what we are hearing coming from the Premier today. If t:he PrE!rn:ier thinks for a rnornE!nt that we are go:lng to lEd: : this one drop and hE! is r:3oing to be abJ.e ride it. out, then hE! had better think again. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear·, hear! MR.

DOYLE: The Premier is acting in a very hypocritical fashion. 1_(:!1: me ask wher·e j.s hjs sense of ba1ance and fairness now? Where does he suddenly get that new set of rule s that everybody is supp osed l:o be playing by? And who or what is rE!Sponsible foln, all of a sudd :::!n, bringing the Premier's standards clown to such a lotJJ level dS l:hey arE! right now? Is th:i s t.l'1f' standard? Is this the bl:!nch mi:.'Ark that the ministers on the oLher side arE! going to have l:o 1 iV E! by from notJJ on? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I haVE! beE!n tolerating the me1nb( 'H' asking three or Four ques ljons.

This is a supplementary, so the hon. rnernbE!r k nouJ s lha t: hE• s hou 1d get to the supplementary quickly . MR. DOYLE: That is my question to the Premier , Mr . SpeakE!r. [ would like him to respo nd . Mr. SpE!akE!r, obvtousJy thE! Prem:i E:!r' has decided he :is going to ride th:i s onE! out . HE! j s not: go:i ng to answer· any rnore qUE!stions. So lE!l: me ask him a new one. Let I'TIE! ask No. 18 1~91'7

him a further supplementary. I thought the Premier 1 s administration would take a little more than a couple of months to break down. Let rne ask him a very, very clear question: In view of the fact that the Minister of Forestry has admitted to the Premier that he was in a conflict. of interest by renting this building to the government, can the Premier indicate to the House if any other minister in h:i s Cabinet right now, upon invitation to the Cabinet., indicated to the Premier that he was in a confLict of interest or that he might be somewhere down the road in a potential conflict of interest? MR.

RIDEOUT : That cannot according to use:1d to be. MR. SPEAKER : be tolerated what his The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS : either, standard Let lTIE! address thE! The hon. thE! rnernbet" first prE!ITd .se . fot" Windsor· ·-· Buchans never indicated to me that hE! was tn a conLl.ict oF 'inb:•rest. He indicated to me the factual situation, and I said to him, 1 When that lease expires, you cannot negotiate a new lease. You wouJ.d be :Ln conflict of interest, so it cannot happen. The lease must terminatE! on its date, or you must resign. You would be in conflict if that occtHTE!d. 1 He told me that.

Since, one oi:her minister has ind:icated to me that there is a lease situation and that he is in the process of terminat.ing that lease. That is accurate. MR. RIDEOUT: How much longer does he have to terminate it? L9J8 June 22, 1989 VoJ. XLI PREMIER WELLS : I think he is taking steps to do it very quickly. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the Premier give us a little more information today on who that ministE!r is and what is the potential conflict of interest that he finds himself in right now?

Could the PrE!mier give us a little more detail on that :issue? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Pr~~11rier. PREMIER WELLS: I have::~ no hE!Sitation telling the House t.~Jho it is, Mt~. SpE!akE!r'. IL. is the Minister of Justice (Mr . Dicks). HE! and his t..•.ri.fE! have a substantial interest in a property in Corner Brook, in which there had been lease of a srnal:l ofFice space for, I bE!J.:i.(~ve $3c_;o or $37::. a month rent.a1, agai .n l:o l:hE:! 130dl "d of U quor· Contr·oJ.. The 111:i n:i s i:e1~ aclvisod lrlE! his lAJire h~~~; ind:Lcab.:•d that steps were being taken to terminate the lease. MS VERGE : Mr.

Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : fhE! ho n. L h rc! rnrc!tnl:iC:! r fur :-1 U111bo r· East:. MS VERGE : Mr. SpeakE!r, I hd.ve a quE•st.ion For· Uw M:in:i.st:E·r· oF Munic:Lpal. and Provincial Affairs about lhe abt"upt rE!S oi.gnat ~i.on of J:i.111 Ba:i,rcl from the position of his executive assistant. Mr. Speak or, whi .lE! Mr. 13a:ir'd Li.Jas No. 18 R918

the minister's EA, he met with a provincial artist coalition and circulated among artists in the Province, saying the minister had given him special responsibility in the field of cuJ. ture, and saying specifically that he, Mr. Baird, would be chairing the rE!activat:E•d committee studying thE! cultural economy and the status of the artist. Would the minister teJ.l the House whether he, the minister, authorized Mr. Baird to make these representations, whether the minister approved of Mr.

Baird's chairing the study committee, or will the minister say that because thE! minister is overburdened with his 'everything but the kitchen sink' portfolio, that he lost track of what Mr. Baird was doing on the rnj rdstE!r' s behalf? Or is the explanation that the rnin:Lster hung Mr. Baird out to dry? F:inally, ~1r. Speakr:>.r, will the minister tell us who will now be c hai r·i ng the study comrni tt.E!Ii:~? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar'! MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Ml~. GULl AGF: Mr.

Speaker·, I am not so sure how many ques{~ions I have, but it sounds likE! bAJEdve or FiftE!en qUE!Stions. But I gUE!SS {~hE! gist of it :is, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Baird did in fact rE!S:ign. lie thought, I suppose, that his mandate was other than being an Executive Assistant. I cannot spE•ak for his confusion about his roJe, you IAJ:i.lJ. have to talk to him about that. But clearly, of course, an Executive Assistant's L919 JunE! 22, 1989 Vol XLI role is not one of policy or formulating doing anything developing policy or with administration, and that is of clearly the case irrespective what may be said.

MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the rnernbE!r fo1n HumbE!r East. MS VERGE: Mr. SpE!akE!r, wiLl. thE! Minister oF Municipal and Provincial Affairs tell the House whether he has violated the principle of arm1s length funding for the arts by approving of granl:s to g1noups in the Province on his own, indE!pendE!Ilt of' the Plnov:inci('ll Ar-·l·:s Council? And spE!df:icaJJy IAJ:i1] he say whether he has approved a grant to an amateur theatre company in Gander? MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Uw Minisb.:!r oF Municipal and Proujncial Affairs. MR.

GULLAGE: No, Mr. knowledge, look into the House. MS VERCE: Speaker, not to my but I will certainly it and report back to Min. Speake!", a fjnal. suppl.E'!ITJE:'IlLaJ"Y· MR. SPEAKEf~: The hon. l~hE! 1nembE! r F (ljn HUJJJbE·r· East. M~> VERGE: I would LikE! to ask l:he Pre1n:iEH' whether in viE~IAJ of thE'! fact·. that the Ministr:•r of Municipal and Provincjal Affairs has obviously No. 1.8 1\919

lost control of the culture part of his mandate, will thE! Premier concede that the Premier made a mistake in structuring the Cabinet in short-changing culture and overloading the minister? And will the Premier act now to give culture its place in the sun? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, he!ar! PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Let me say to the hon. member, Mr. Speak~::~r, that thE! premise of her statemE!nt is :incorrect. I do not accept the premise of her statemen ·t.

But thE!n to go on and answer the question specifically, no, I think the structure is quite sound and I haVE! evc::~ry confid~::~nce that the minister is able to discharge the responsibility comp1etely. I share his vi.elAJ that neither Mr. Baird, nor any oi~her Executive Assi.stant, has any pJ.ace developing policy. That is For the government to do. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, he!ar! MS VERGE: He has been doing it for five weeks. PREMIER WEI LS : I am sorry hE! has not been it for five weeks. He may he has, but he has not been. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr . Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER : doing think The han. the member For Grand Bank . 1..920 JUnE! 22, 1989 Vol XLI MR. MATTHEWS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Finance. In light of Uw information provided at the Estimates Committee last night, that Newfoundland Liqour Commission Student IDs have increased from $5 to $15; a waiter's licencE! from $:) to $E); abrewer' s retail licence from $100 to $200 -·- MR. R. AYLWARD: One hundred per cent. MR. MATTHEWS: and abrewer's distr·ibul:.ors licence from $100 to $200, t~.Jou1d the minister undertako to tablC:! a compJ.etE!

J.i.st of aLl feE• i.nct"E!<.~sE·s contained in hi s budget so that the people of the Province can see just how widespread and severe are the taxes be ing "imposed in this particular budget? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! DR. KITCHEN : Mr. ~3peakE!r . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the M"inistE!r of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mt" . Speaker, I ,,.,i11 do so . MR . MATTHEWS: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the member for Grand Bank. MR .

MATTHEWS : I take that, Mr. :3peakE!r, the mi.nister sai.d that hE• t~.d J. l tabJ.e in the House, For the rE!COrd and for the people of the Province, all fee increases contained in hi s budget for thi.s year ? No. 18 1\920

MR. R. AYLWARD: That is what he said, yes. MR. RIDEOUT: The Wordless Wonder said that . MR. MATTHEWS: He had a great difficulty getting it out, Mr. Speaker . My supplementary, by the way. MR . R. AYLWARD: He was not sur·e if he was allowed or not . MR.

MATTHEWS: I would like to ask thE! minister, in light that he has increased student ID fees from $5 to $15, as 200 per cent increase, following VE!ry closely on thE! hN!ls of his 10 pE!Y' cent tu:LU.on increase for post-secondary students in the Province, why has the Minister of Finance and this particular· government seen fit to take out thE!ir frustr·ation and to slap it t.o the students of this Province in this budget? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. R. AYLWARD : Beat up on the students. MR. RIDEOUT: Krazy Glue is again, has it? MR .

SPEAKER: af l:E!r sl:d.king The hon. the Minister of Finance. SOME HON. MEMB ERS: Oh, boy! Oh, boy! MR . R. AYLWARD : Shock:tng! Shocking! L92l. June 22, 1989 Vo] XLI MR. SIMMS : Let me ask a question? Why did he increase the student ID fees by 200 per cent and not tell anybody? MR. RIDEOUT: And not tell anybody? MR. SIMMS: Old Suction Cup himself . MR. RIDEOUT: You could not handspike his seat over there. display of arrogance! MR. R. AYLWARD : him out of What a It is a shocking thing, shocking! MR. RIDEOUT: What do thE! Young LibE•raJ.s t:h:i.nk of you now? MR . R.

AYLWARD : Put Kevin AyliA.Jard in thE•r'e, boy, to do a job of .it. Torn Mu1nphy or Kevin AyJ.ward, one of them. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. thE! member for Gr·and Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. SpeakE!r, I think it was a very important question. MR. R. AYLWARD : Sure it is. MR. MATHI EWS : ThE! post.--SE!condary eclucat.:-i on students of this Province have bE!E!n slappE!d IA.Jj l·:h a 10 pE:!r' cent: tuition f('E! increase. A numbEH' oF students in our Province could not afford to go to our inst..it:utions bE!forE! and even fE!lAIE!r can go now.

Then to compound l:hat u.ri.Lh a 200 per cent increase on another studE!nt I.D. card I l:h:ink is jusl: terriblE•. Now, a final minister·. I No. 18 suppJ.emen·l:ary Lo t.hP wou1d 1ikE! t:o reFE!r f\9 21

the minister to Page VIII of the estimates and the budget and refer hirn to Estimated Pr·ovin c.ial and Federal Revenues and, particularly, OthE!r Provinc ial Sources. If he J.ooked down thE:~re a little ways he would see Inland Fi sh and Game Licenses. Last year thE! rev is E!d figurE! of rev E:~ nue wa. s $2,130,000. This year the minister is projecting $2,630,000, an increase of $500,000. Now, will the minister rise in his place and tell us where he is going to get this $500,000? Are the present catE!gories of J.icenses going to be grossly increased?

Or is the minister seriously considering taxing and putt ing licenses on a new category of fish or game? Would the minister stand and tel] us that pleas e? Is it directly relat ed to l:he qUE! Stion I asked yesterday as to wh erE• hE! is going to get the $500,000? MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Minister of Finance . DR . KITCfiEN : Mr. Speaker, this question carnE! up in estimates last night and I then told l:hE! rnE!Inb( '-r tha l: I would get this information and convey it through the Chairman of that Committee to hirn and, perhaps, I 1.;.ri 11 b r i n g i t t o t h e H o u s e .

I t i s par·t of thE! same question that . hE! askE!d E!arliE!r about any increases in licensing fees. This 1nor·ning I st.artE!d that procedul~e -.. bE!CauSE! it is not . in our dE!parttnE!nt:, it is in another departrnE!nt --and I askE!d for that information to be gathered and conveyed to 1ne so I can convPy it. l:o othE!r pE!ople. MR . SPEAKFR : Qu estion Period is now fin ished . 1,..922 June 22, 1989 Vol XLI Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Carbonear . MR . REID : Mr .

Speaker, I cam e into th is House for the first time about, maybe, twenty years ago . MR. SPEAKER: OrdE!r, please! I think the hon. gentleman is corning in a little too E!arly; WE· arP not dov.m to the Orders of the Day yet. He is talking on the concur-rence d(!bate, I expE!Ct. We have not reached that Head yet. Notices of Motion DR. KITCHEN: Mr . ~3peaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Finance , DR . KITCHEN: M r . ~~ p E! a k E! r, I lAJ:i .

"· h i.. o l:. db 1 f:' d List of tE!rnporary loans r·aised pursuant i·:o Sect:i on 4-ll· and ~)ecL Lon 4 5 of The Finan cia 1 (I d rnJ n i. ~; 1: r· a. l: ·i. on Acl. :, 1973 as ArnendE!d. I arn tabling this list in accordance with the requirements of Sect ion 45 of thE! Act. Mr. Speaker, in accordan ce wjl..h the requ ·.irements of

Section 1)1 oF ThE! F-:inancial Adrn:in :i.str'cl 'lion Ac l.., I v.r.ish to table a '1.i.st: of guarante ed J.o an s pa..i cl by the Prou ·ince dur·.ing th1~ previous financ:i .aJ. year. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given No . 18 1\9? 2

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minist~~r of Justice. MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On Order PapE!r 11/89, the han. the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) asked that the following information be laid upon the Table of the House: An Itemized list of travel expenditurE!S incurrE•d by the Minister, his Executive Assistant, or any member of the Minister1s personal or Departmental staff who may have accompaniE!d him since May 5, 1989. In anstJJer thE!re WE•rE! thrE!e trips taken by the minister'. The first on May 12, 1989, to CornE!r Brook. The cost to the taxpayers was $356.

The purpose of the visit was to att.E!nd two functions: One on bd1alf of the governmE!nt, the opening of the Canadian Paraplegic Association in Corner Brook; and thE! second one was an annual inspection of the 511 Humber Squadron of the Air Cadets. On May 19, 1989, a similar function in Corner Brook, whE!rE!in the minister officially rE!preSE!nted thE! governmt:!nt at: thE• 60th Annua] Lions At1anU.c Canada Convention at a cost to the taxpayer of $380.20.

On June 9, 1989, the min:istE!r attended the Fe~eral/ Provincial Meeting of Attorney 1 s General in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, for four days, from Tuesday through Friday of that week, at a cost $1,265.21. On that trip he was accompanied by the Deputy Minister, whose expenses incurred were $1,049.09 for the same time period. 1_9 2 3 .June 22, 1989 Vol XLI The second question, appN1ring on the same Order Paper, was: An jt.emized list of expend:i.tUines for· any office equipmE!nt, pE!rsonal equipment, furnishings and photographs purchased for the Minister 1 s OffiCE! sinCE! May :; , 1989.

ThE! answer is: TherE! !AJer~:! thrE!E! certificates framed by the Department of Works, Serviu:•s and Transportation. However, there was no cost to the departrn~:!nl fclln this service. Thank you, Mr·. Speaker. MR. KELLAND: Mr. Spoaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

You can adviSE! me "if this is tho appropriate part of the agenda which would allow me to provide additional information to a question raised by the hon. the member for Green Bay yesterday tAli. t h r E• s p r::! c l: 1: o 1: h u A b 1. t·:. i b L -P r· "i. c: :::· , Grand FalJ.s situation, h:i.s reference to an explosion. Mr'. SpE!akc::!r, I did hOd I" a 1nedia report J.ast night, if I cctn rnake brief reference to that, uJhi.ch indicated that thE• rn::i.JJ:ist:E:·I~, my s e 1 f , h ad n o i n f o r m a t. ·j o n l:. o provide the House on Lh0 s i 1: u at ion .

In casE! l~ h a l:. lAJd s 11dsunderstood by the media, l just want to reiterate that part for !::he fflf:'ITibE•i" and ·fol" thE! Houc;e. The soot E!rnission, oi1y r·E!s:idue lAJdS in fact a combination of factors. OnE! tAJas th~~ "lightening strike on the TMP, and therE! was some del:.a::i.l with rE!SpE!Cl: to start-.ing up nu111bur two boiler. The other was the No. 18 1~923

explosion which occurred in the boiler 1 s superheater tube, which resulted in the expulsion of steam through the stack, thE! end result being th<::1 oiJ.y waste or the soot being despos:ited around the town. In case one particular media rep did not get that information yeste!rday, I just u.1ant to reiterate that. To follow up, I indicated in my response yesterday that if there was additional information available I would provide it to the House and to the member who raised the question. I want to tell him that our officials fr-om the Environment

section checked with Abitibi-Price this morning and from the point of viE!W of the cause of the explosion and the soot emissions, ther'e was nothing further to add to that. He also expressed some concern, Mr. Speaker, about cJ.aims and so on. From the information we have received from Abitibi·-·Price it is our understanding that residents are indeed rE!gistE!d.ng cJ.ajms. I suppose that probably started today or sorTIE! time yesterday. The attitude of Abitibi--Price at this stage of the game is to accept the claims .and judge them on an individual case -by-case basis.

That is all the have at this time. anything further, I to the House and Speaker. Thank you. information we If thE!rE! ·is will br-ing it as well, Mr. Petitions MR. SPEAKER : ThE! hon . the member for Humber East. SOME HON . MEMBERS : L92'1 . June 22, 1989 Vol XLI Hear, hear! MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to present another petition from ciU.ZE!nS of our Province calling on the Department of Health to give access to modern screening mammogr-aphy to wo1nen throughout the Province so that breast cancer is detected early, and so that resulting death and radical surgery are minimized. Mr.

Speaker, I will quote the prayer of the petition: 11 Your' pE!titioneJns pr-ay that your honourab] e tlouse may be pl(~ased to provide the funding for the Department of HE!alth to in-t:r-oduu:• immediately a Province -wide serE! e ni ng mamrnog raphy progr-anJ, including rnodE!I"n mamrnogrdms in the major ho spi tals, and mobiJ.e un:i ts to serve the r-ural arE!dS. '1 Mr. SpeakE!r, women throughout l:he Province, rE!alizing tha t HeaJ.th and Welfare Canada are recommending that screening mammography be made available to al1 LI.JOITJE:'n SO that tho~ :~P 1-<JOIJJf'n (JI)l:OY' fi F\:y can have an a,·nlUal r-ou l:.

Lne screen, and younger women IArith warning symptoms can be tested, are rushing Lo s:.ign t.hc";c p E! t i t ·.i 0 11 S . W 0 I 11 (' J1 h ('ll) I"! b r:• C' 11 disappointed to hear the M~Ln:l.s tel" of Health respond by seeming to trivialjze the issue and a l: tempt. i n g to s c o r· '"! p o 1 i l: .. i. c a 1 poj.nts with it. ~1r. ~3peaker, although I d.id not: hear this my se lf, I am told the rnini sb?.r sa.id i.n a CBC ra(J'Lo interview at 1unchtitTIE! today that he is not E:~ven convincE!d by l:hE! currE!nt research f:ind:ings, and that hE!

JAJants l:o do his OlAJil research before taking any ac t:-i .on to rnab:! availablE! fo1n women across No. 18 R9 2'1 ·

our Province modern screening mammography services . Now, Mr. Speak er, this is ridiculous. Health and Welfare Canada, after having received the results of a major study last yE!ar, haVE! concludE:~d that all women over fifty should be able to have annual mammograms, and that screening mammography should be universally available in the country. That recommendation was passed on t:o all the provinces at a national meeting in Ottawa last DE:~CEHnber. Mr .

Speaker, I, in prE!Senting t:his petition, wish to reiterate my support for its prayer and call on the Min:istE•r of HE!aJ.th to acCE!pt \:he respectE!d, cred ·iblE! medical research findings, to embrace Heal i:h and Welfare Canada's recommendations, and instead of dillydallying and making excuses, act. immediat.E!J.y to spend monE!Y on putting in place screening mammography servicE!S across the Province. As has b1~on pointE!d out in this House before, these screening mammography SE!rvices are not expensive compared to other medical technological services.

I understand onE! sct'E!ening mammogram costs only about $110,000, and if bulk purchases are made for several hospitals and for mobile services, the unit cost might turn out t:o be lE!SS. Again, I urgE! the Minister of Health and the government to act immediately to introduce a Province-wide screening mammography program for the wo!Tien oF NE !WfoundJ.and and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear·, hear! MR . SIMMS: L~2 5 Jun1:! 22, 1989 Vol XLI What does thE! Minister· of Health have to say about this? AN HON. MEMBER : Nothing. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Ministern of HE!alth . MR. DECKER : Mr.

SpE!aker, I thank thE! hon . member for presenting this petition to the House. She did not say how many signatures are on it. How many s:i.gnaturPs arE! tlwr~ ?.? MS VERGE: About twenty-five or thirty. MR. DECKER: About t.u.JE!nty--five or t:h:i .r·t:y. ThE! other one had thirty, and anothor tu.Jenty. The mini stE!r is not. soliciting petitions, of course. I want attention to draw the to the rnE!JilbE!r' s dj_fFE!rence bE!tWrc!en rna1nrnography scJ~E!BJ'Jinq and mammography services. We are talking about JTJaJnmogr·aphy scr·een:Lng, I wouJ.d as~;urne.

NotAl, the rnE.~rnber· Jnc~Ft:!rs to U.JOIJlen lHHh•r fj_fty and I tJJouJ.d havE• to ad1)ise her that she i~ getting into a very dangerous area, because the jury is indeE!d still out on mammography scr·een:i.ng foJ" to~IOJII( '!n under fiFty. After all, X-rays are radiation and, according to the experts, there is a clear dangE!r. Ba~:;j ca11y u.Je suppor·t t-:.he pr·ayer' of ' \:he peti t:ion. WE! support UlE! I: he~ prayer of the pE!tition, that th:i ~:: ProvincE! bring :in mammography screE•ni .ng.

HOIAJE!VE'Jn, lo~JE! have chosen to approach this professionally, IJ.Je havE! chosE:·n to approach this ca.rE!fuJ.ly. WE! hdve had seVE!nlE!en YE!iH'S of cr:i.s:.i~; management in this Province, Mr . SpE!ah~r, and tAlE! do not i.ntend to No. 18 1~9 2 ':)

carry on with crisis management. We intend to do good planning. Mr. Speaker, I belive it is a good thing that we have taken this rational approach, because after the han. member and the member for St. John 1 s East got: up the other day and panicked over this issuE!, I received a letter, and a cassette, which I will make available to the hon. member, or any member of this House, or the media, if they want to listE!n to it.

It is from a weJJ.-known obstetrician in this city and she suggested that we arE! taking the right approach; this is something that has to be done very carefully and we have to listen to all sides. This tape is hE!rE! which any han . member of this House or· the media can have . MR. SIMMS: Who is she? MR. DECKER: Dr . CorneJ.ia J. Banes . I am sure anyone who is farn:i.liar' with the medical profession has heard that name before. Now, Dr.

Banes explains Uw bE!nEd:.-it of breast self-examination, she explains the importance of physical examination, and she also makes some very valuable ~oints about mammography screening. Although she does not condemn mammography screening, she does point out that there are things we should consj_dE!r bE!fOrE! lAJe star·t.ing exposing the whole population to radiation. She also points out. thE! dangc:H' of OVE!rconfidence, thE! d~nger of ~ false sense of SE!CUrity. And HP<.'ll th Canada is not recommending a screening every YE!ar, l:.hey arr:! rr:!cornrnE!rH:hng ever·y tlAJO yeat'S, for WOmE!n OVl'!r fifty.

L926 JUnE! 22, 1989 Vol XLI She is saying the faJ.se sense of secur-.ity which mammography screening could encourage lAJouJ.d stop women from exercising self-exarrdnation and j_t would stop women from gotng to haVE! phystcal examinations at regular intervaJ.s. Thi.s is the kind of Uling, Mt". Speaker, the Departm en t of lioal th is looking at. We are not going to rush into something before cue have had timE! to J.ook at it. frorn all the sides.

Because we are not doing this for the sake of some hon. member who wants to make a few political points by rushing out with a petition and soeking signaturE•s, we ar'E! doj_ng Ud.s frorn a very professionally planned approach. And if at. the end of the day we are convinced that mammography screening will indeed cut d ot.~o.m on thE! can cc:! r dE!'-'- t h s or' e v e n t h e am o u n t o f c a n c e r· :i n -L· i·d. c; Pr·ovince, we tAd.ll indN!d br·ing in a mammography s crE!E!n::i.ng pt"OS1r'am for this Province. Wo will do that, Mr. SpeakE•r. But, Mt".

Speaker, if are convincod that there is any indication that there rn i g h t b E! s o ill E! d a n g e ,~ l: o l: h e p u o p l t::: of this Province, IAH! have a Vt •:"y s E• r "i o u s o b l i g a l: .. i. o n l~ c' l~ h :.· 111 -' ; ; d ~.v ::! w::i.l1 not be bd.ng:i ng j n someUri ng which is dangerous to our people. So tAlE' havr:• to hear' <'l.ll s:-ldns, IAJ(! have to th:i nk :i.t Lhrough. And thu hon. ITIE!rnbE!r can scJ"eam all ~:he l:ikE~s and she can squeal aLl ~;ill:! 1·i k c:! s , b u t lAI e a r· E! ':3 o i 1'1 cJ i:. o s l.· d n d f:i.r·tn on this on(~.

We• ar'C! go·j n~J Lo d o i t r e a s o n a b 1 y . WE! a r E' g o i n g l: o pJ.an it, Mr. ~ipeakE!r'. But :if there is an abso1ui:e, proven benE!f:i.t., unl:i.ke thE ! 'lun. nH·ttJbc t" I t;..d_ 11 110 t: b ('! lAid it :in q t E! 11 y (! cH' S l~ 0 do :it, I lAri11 do :it as ~~oon c-l~; :Lt is proven to us that it is a reasonable direction in which to go. And I am quite serious when I say I wou]d 1:-i.ke aJ] hon. rnernbei"S No. 18 1\9 2 6

to listen to this tape, because I think what Dr . Ban es is talking about is a very sensible approach to take when dealing with mammography screening . Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MS DUFF: Mr. Spea.kE!r . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the member for St. John 1 s East. MS DUFF: In adding a little bit to this debate I wo u 1 d l i k E~ t. o say that I would ce1ntainly LikE! to hE•ar what Dr. Banes has to say. She is not an obstE!trician I am familiar with, but I am sur E! she is a VE!ry competent professional.

But nothing that the minister said she has said has really strengthen ed his own argument for deJ.aying any properly planned mammography scrE!ening. Everythjng the mjnister has said about this ha s tended to be defensive, has tended to be politic al and ha s tended to try and say yo u d:Ld not do it For SE!Vent E!e n years, so that is a good rea son for us not doi ng it now . But the rninistr:!r is well aware, if he has in Fa ct read the report From the National Hea lth people, that up to J.ast.

DeCE!mber, in fact, one of the reasons why a Province -wide screening program IAJas not put in place tiJas simply be ca-.JSE! therE! wa s somE• conC E!r'n; th ere were pros and cons, ther e u.Jere people u.Jho were for and again st it be cau se of the very i: h :in g ·thE! ITI :i. n j_ S 'L ('! r' C :i. t- E'' d , t h (' (' j_ S k of blanketing people, perhap s unne cessarily, with radiation.

What thE! report concJ.uded, and IAJhy other provinces have in fact adopted a mamrnogr'aphy s cr'E!enj ng L9 27 June 22, 1989 Vol XI.I there is more than onE• province ··· program, has been because this report has shown that the risks are far, far outweighed by th e benefits for those categorie s of women who ar E:~ at risk, namely, people over fifty and women who have a genetic predisposition or some other factors which wou ld indicate that they are at high risk of breast cancer.

You ar e not going to blanket the Provin CE! with women over fifty who do not have any br east canc er in th eir family, IA.Jho do not haVE! any medica.l condit -ion s which m:Lqhl: indicate they are at risk. So thctt, I think, was an atte -lnpt t.o deflect without being totally truthful in terms of the risks . I do not know u.Jhat kind of rE!SE!arch and carE•ful plann:Lng the minister is intending to do, or what kind of research capability he thinks he has that would be greater than Uw rE•sear'ch capability in the National DE!partment of HE!aJ.th and lrJelfc-H'e.

Tt SE!E!ITIS that l:hat par"l:icul.ar national body, which is a very responsible body, is willing to r'ecomiTlE!nd Uri.s kind of' ~;cr'C'i-:·n:L: ·:~i marnmogr'aphy as hav .i11':3 d IH: !i' y <J, "(:• ,:d: advantage to thE! health of IA.Jornen in this Province becauSE!, :in fact:, it. has bE!en shocun t·.o bl'' l.~b]u \"..•) s a v E! 1 i v 1::! s . f', 1·1 d L h C' lilt> '~ t. reputable radiologists in this Pr'ovinCE!, lAJho t;Jould, I think, be very ablE! to spE!ak to l:.h-:.is, havE:! s a :i d t h a l: 1 n d rn J no g r· a p h y s c ,~ :::• rc• n l n ~~ has no ·l:. j u ~~ t a ~; 1 i g h t E! f f lc! c L or· a possible effect, but a profound E•frect on morbjd:l.ty, u.Jh:ich rnean s on lessen:ing deal:h - ~r~orbid ··i t.y 1 n e a n s d c at h .

I L a J. :=; o h a ~'· c• profound effect on lessening the degree of racl:icaJ SUI"gery l·:hat ha~:; l:o be done. So :if, in facl:, LhE! risks are far outweighed by the benefits and we can save liues through ear'1y detE•ction of at . No. 18 1\') 2 7

least some of the 160 women who statistically will develop bre~st cancer in the nE!Xt year and may not evE! n know it , then I thin k it should be well worthwhile doing. I think the technology exists. I am sure that people in the Department of Health would not have great difficulty in establishing this k.ind of program, and I can seE! no rational reason, except for the fact that the minister did not consider it important enough to put in his budget and is notJ.J trying to bail himself out on some kind of excuse of trying to be rational and careful about the whole thing.

The minister has also tried to cloud the issuE! in terms of the diFferE!nce betw1?.E!n mammography screening and mammography SE!rViCE!S. I think we all r'E•al:izc~ that you cannot have a mammography screening progr-am in this Pr-ovince unless you have the equipment with which to do it, if that is what hE! means by mammography services.

There is no point instigating a program that is Province---wide if, in fact, our current equipment, which I have been told by co1npetE•nt and reputablE! radiologists is too slow to attend to our existing waiting lists, 1.uithout mentioning adding to them by a dE!VE!lOpE!d pr-ogram of screening mammogr-aphy, cannot copE~ lJ..Ii l~h it . So the minister has to do two things: He has t:o put ITJonE•y in his budget to help regional hospitals around the Province upgrade their existing equipment.

He toJd us :i.n thP House the other day that the hospital in Corner Brook had Cindered E!quipment; and I think tho minister· .is awar-e~ that that equipment was ordered to take advantage of tendering that was done by St.. CJ.are' s Mc:!rcy L928 June 22, 1989 Vol XLI Hospital, but at the moJTIE:~nt, the hospital dOE!S not have any funds to pay for it. and does not know where it is going to get the funds unless it uses the begging bowl approach. The rninistor has also indicated that he is go ing to have one mobile unit in the Province and that thE! other arE!as are alJ right.

But one mobilo unit w'.i.ll hardly get to people oncE• a year·. It may not get to people onco every two years. And 70 per CE!nt of the populc"d~ion of this Province live within a convenient radius of the existing rogional hospital centres. Now, ther·e lJ.Jas anothE!r remark the 1ninister· made that I found v1: !r'y strange when hE: ' wa s quotin~1 th:.is reputable obstetrician. He says that if women have a lrlcill 'llllogr·aphy screening .it will give tho c!lll a Fu11 sonSE! of secur·ity, it. lAJiJl stop them from doing SE!lf --E!Xaminat.ions or going for physical examinations.

I think !~hat i.s a very insulting remark to women, b E! c a u s e tAl h e n t: h e y '3 Ed: t h P i. i" mammographi es, they wJll be to ]d b y t h e p r· o f e s s .i. o n a 1 s .;, b o u I~ <. l w importanCE! of seJ.f-·-exam:.i.nation and physical oxaminatoion . That is a totalJ.y ricJ:i cuJ ous .:.tnd :.i. n ~: u] L:i 11(;J rlc!lflark. SOME HON. MEMB Eg...§ : HE!ar. hE!i'lr! Mf~. SPEAKER : The hon. the Prernier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr·. Speaker·. befor ·c you ca."IJ Orders of the Day, I tAJou1d jus{~ like to tell the House of an event that I think is significant, at least for oldE!r' mernbE·r·s of this HouSE!.

No. 1.8 1\9 2 8

Mr. Bren Walsh -·-I do not know if any membt::~rs remE!I'nb(;!r him -was a newspaper reporter from the days of Confederation and was a fixture in the news gaLlery of this House twenty-odd years ago, when I was fir·st. a member. He was a man who was highly regarded in the Province, highly regarded in his field, very fair-minded and very thorough. Not only the news media, but all members of the House of the day regarded Mr. Walsh very highly and with good reason.

He operatE!d w:i.th a significant degree of physical irnpairmE!nt, but that did not stop him from going and being wherever it was necessary to be to do a thoroughly good job. I know that E!tJE!rybody 1..\lho was a nwmber· of the House at the time when he served as a reporter in this House, and everybody who remembers him reporting as far' back as the National Convention days shares the view and opinion of him that I am expressing to the House now. tie has just died unexpE•ctE!dJ.y jn Ol:tawa, and I regrE!t to inform thE! l·louSE! of that.

It :Ls a mattE!r of great pe:~rsonal regret to JnE!, because he called me about a month ago and asked if we could agree to meet on the next occasion I was in Ol:tawa. Fl'·ankly, not only t..uould I agree to mE!et, I wouJ.d considE!r it to be a gr'E!a t honor. I Lt.laS anxious to meet him again and have a chanCE! t:o talk t,o..li.th h·im. I r·egret th<:lt L~hat wi11 not now bE! possible and, Mr. ~3pE!aker, I t..uould ask that Your Honour prepare an appropriate letter to express to Mt~. Walsh 1 s family HIE! condolE!nU!S of ali members of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of' thE!

Opposition. 1_929 JUnE! 22, 1')89 Vo 1 XLI MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, on beha1f of my colleagues on this side of the House we certainly want to associate ourselves with the remarks rnadE! by the han. the Premier. For thE! first fiVE! or· six yc~ar·s I sel"VE!d as a membEH' of this House, Mr. Walsh was stiJ.J. car-rying on :i.n his capacity as legislative Reporter. All of us calTIE! to know h.irn, e·ither· in that capacity or as an individual in his retirement, and as a writer.

He wrote at lE!dSt OnE! novel, wh:Lch I th:ink lAid~~ VE!ry wE:<ll rE!SearchE!d, on how Newfoundland came to be the lOth ProvinCE! of Canada, and hE! ci:'Ld il: "in his usual thorough fash:ion. So ced:ainly Uds j.s d ~F'(''dt. J.oc;s for Newfoundland and Labrador. BrE!n WaJ.sh 1..uas a ~Jl"eat Nt::~wfoundlander and Labradot":i.an. He believed tremendously in the potential of Newfoundland and l_abradol".

We are son·y to hear· o·F his pa.ssing, and t,o..Je t>.JOllld certainly Jjke to have the off i c :i. a 1 0 p posit. :ion in L h is H o LJ ~; e a s s o c i at e d Lt. d. t h t·. h e c o 111111 e n t. ~; n 1 d cl e b y t h e h o n . l: h e iJ r' l:! 1 n :i 10' 1" , d n d lAI .1 l_ h the condolences which I assume will be sent to his family. MR. SPI=.:AI<EI~: The Cha:i.r wLl.1 wish E! s and r E! quE! s l: j.n this respect. CiH'Y'Y of hon. Orders of the Day Order 3. -Concurrance (Resource Committee) MR. ~3PEAKER: out:. Lhc lrlC!rrtbUi"S Mot·Lon The han. t:hE! member for Carboneal". MR. REID: No. l. 8 1\9 29

I apologize, Mr. getting up a little anxious. Speaker, for early. I was With your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a few comments before I begin my report to the House on the Resource Estimates Committee. Mr. Speaker, I am often quitE! ashamed to sit in this House and share in a debate of such a nature as we had here earlier this afternoon. I think that every singlE:~ membe!r in this House demands a certain amount of respect. And when you condemn, no rnatb:~r if it. is corning from this side of the House or the other sidE! of thE!

House, C.'- CE!rtain member by using derogatory comments, you are condemning l:hE! constituents and the people who elected E!ach and evE!ry onE! of us. I do not think it is necessary, Mr. SpeakE!r', for· onE! to lose~ composure when asking a question of some minister or some member of thE! governrnE!nt. This is a personal cornrne!nt, Mr.

SpE!aker, and I have a faj _r amount of respect for a 1o l: of hon . l'nE!J'Jli:H:.r·s on t.he other side of this flouSE!, and I know that sornE!times whe!n thE!Y do not get the answers that they ask, that thE!Y do go a 1il :tlo bit too far wjth their comments, espE!cially in the backbenchc~s when someone is speaking. I would like to say, Mr. ~3peakc~r, that when I look around at lhe people who are in this House, quite often in the past three \AlE'E!ks students, I lnE!rnE!InbE!r thE! comments that. my s t u d P n t s made t: o me some l::hreE! years ago wi·H;!n I brought thorn into this HouSE!.

That • we • . that -.is , • the rn • were a bunch of animals . M1n. ~)pE!aker, j_n i'l.ll sincerity, I arn sur'E! that tJJe on thj.s side of the House as L.IJelJ 1_')30 June 22, 1989 Vol XLI as the other gentlemen respect each other, and respE!Ct each other t.o the point where L.IJe do not need to scream and yell and call ee1ch other names in order to get a response . On that note, Mr. Speaker, I t.uill bE!gin my report on the Resource Estimates Co1nmi ttc:!E!. Mr. that SpeakE!r, thE! I can honestly say Resource Estimates Committee, which included the han. the member for Mount Pearl (Mr.

Windsor), thE! rriE!ITJbers for Lewisporte (Mr. Penney), ME!nihek (Mr. A. Snow), St. CE!orgE! • s (Ml". Short), GrE!E!I1 Bay (Mr. Hewlett:), and Placentia (Mr. Hogan), d:i.d no~ ~ haVE! to gE! t on in Cornmi U:ee l:i. kE! this House gets on quJte often, maybE! bE!CaUSE! thE! V-.ice- --Chair rnc-:tn (Mr. Windsor·), and my hon. C 011 E! a g U (! S 011 l:: he 0 L '·1 U In S i. d (! lJJE ! I"<:! gent.lernE:~n E!nough to discuss and d 1? b a t e lAJi t h o u t g e l: t: :i n g o u l: o 1'- order, :Ls thE! rE!ason L.IJhy we have had such succE!SS in bJ"inrJing thE! estimates to the flousE! as qu:.i ckJ.y as we have.

I will COillp1.ill"iE'111: l:he Vice-Chairman and say Lhal C:!IH•ryth·ing I did ,;,s Cha.il"llidll Ui'' Chairpers on I c un s ul~o d M: . Windsor on and Mr. Windsor. in r~;:~turn, consultE!d mE! on anything 1: hat \..\Je n e 1;:! d E• d l: o h ,:we done . ( i~ tAJa~; c:~n honour· and a Pl":iv:.i .lt:!!:JC', JV:J'"·. Leader of LhE! Opposil:.ion, to wo;"k t.u·ith Mr. W:i ndsor· and your p~:·op] c on l:hal: Comrnitl:(c'(!, a11d .[ l:.hink i.>Je succeeded in doing quite well. SOME HON. ME MBERS: Hear, hear! r~R.

REID : ~-- - ····---- · .. -- 1 I: i s 0 f l: e n d -.i r F i c u .l L r: 0 r' Ill E! t u sit hcr·e, knowing that I am par·t. and parccd of this goVE!rnrnent, and say sorriE!times to mys~:!J.f, •why a1nc! those people on the other side being so caJ.lous and rough with No. 18 1\')30 I

some of the people on this side? 1 The reason I say that is because it comes to my mind, . 1 My gosh, we have only been here for seven or eight weeks and we are trying our b~::~st. We arE! making mistakes and we wiJ.l probably continue to make mistakes. 1 But at least give us a c h a n c E! o v e r he t' e to p r· o v e ourselVE!S in the nE:!xt year or so, see where we ar·e gcdng, and thE!n if you want to jump down our throats bE!cause we are making mistakes, when we learn the ins and outs of the various departments, certainly do so at that point.

Because I can guarantee:~ you thc:n~e is not going to be another election for at least three years. At least I hope there is not. Mr. Speaker, I thj nk I can spc~ak on behalf of my Co rmn it tee and say that jn every jnstance, Mines and EnE!rgy, F·.ishE!ries, Fares try and Agriculture, Development, EnvironrnE!nt and Lands, WE!

WE!re surprised, bE:•causr:~ IJ.JE! discusSE!d it al=-tE!r the rnec~ ·t-.ing, to St!E' that the ministers were so well -versed in their dE!pari:ments, and E!tJr:•n to me it. was a sur·prise, t:o be ab1(:! t.o ask questions of the various ministers and be able to get the ansWE!IS from thE! rn ·inistc::~rs, as such. Now, I do not. know what is happE!ning tn i:ht! ol:hc~r colmn:it{:r:!eS and, r·eaJ.Jy, it is not my pel~sonaJ. c o n c E· r n w h a 1: i s h a p p L>rli n '::J oi n 1: h e ot~wr con11nit:tees, but: I can honestly say, Mr .

Speaker, that each and every one of the ministers we intE!rViE!WI:!d and quE:sLLont!d for Lhe pa~~t t:wo wcE:ks were surprisingly well-versed on questions that I did not expect somE: of my rninistE!I~s and some oF rny friE~nds to bE· ab1E:! to answer. I congratulate them because they must be dojng something over in 1.931 June 22, 1989 Vol XU those offices in order to be able to get up and answer the questions that they have . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. REID: I IJJi11 make a fE!IJJ br·j.Hf' COITIITlE:nt:s, Mr·. Speaker, on particular depar·trnents.

I found, when we were debating the Fisherii'::~S Department, a lot of questions that WE:re poSE!d by both the gover·nrnent mE:rnbers and tho Opposition mE :nlbE!r's sort of overlapped with questions that only the Federa1 GoVE!rnment of Canada could answer rather than the provincia} government. We h a tJE! t o I" e mE ! 1 n I:J <:! r t: h a 1: 1: h e fisheries in Newfoundland is con troll E:d, pra c tic a 11 y l 00 p N' cent, by the federal government . Often we find outselues overlapping :Lnto areas and as k:i ng questions about things that we assumE:• are pr·ovincia1 j_ssuo~~ bt.lt are federal issues.

ThE! offshorE! exarnpJ.E•, that: right n OlAJ, L h c': have with the caplin and all question, we are faced r--o,-­ L<ri th pr·obl t:•tns l:ildL t:v'::! cod gJ.ut and the the other things t. h a t i:·l r· e i n v o 1 v e d i n 1: h e f j_ :; h c I" y , d loi: of thr;· I"C~~ponsi_bil i.t~y -loi. t:•s u.dthin the feder·aJ dE:par"trnent., and i.i:. is pr·etty d ·if'l:-icull~ fot" a minister of provincial fisheries l:o bt• ab1(! to anstAJ::!r', debal:e ot" j u 5 t: j_ r y lfl() v E! ~~ wit. h :L n t h l:! F :i. ~; 11 c I" :i. ''! ~:: portfo1io that: he or hls dE'partment does not have uer·y mu ch to do tAJith.

I complimented the Minister FishE•ries, bu1: I guess Minister of Fisheries had training in prevjous years. of L hl :: good I think out: of all the Cabinet he is pr·obably thE! most. E:xper·ienced, aL No. 18 R931

~ least with some past experience as a Cabinet minister I and t.hat certainly showed up in the estimates on the Fisheries Department, a very well versed, educatE!d man tn the fisheriE!S. I think one of the hon. rnE!mbers in the Opposition said somE! time ago that thE! hon. thE! PrerrdE!r could not have picked a better person for the Minister of Fisheries than the hon. member for Twillingate. In Forestry and Agriculture: Ther·e were a number of questions posc::~d to the hon. minisl:erl and I can honestly say, Mr. SpE!akerl that the han. the mornber for Windsor - Buchans certainly handled himself well.

We WE!re not necessarily all unanimously agreeing that he did answer all thE! questions, but I think that thE! qUE!Stions that he did anst.uer· he anstAJered quitE! well. and hE! IAJi% educated to be able to do that. There are some quesU.ons that the han. Minister· of ForE!Sl:r·y and AgricuJ.ture was as kE!d that you could label as political types of questions, and hE! handJ.ed them quite admirably.

I can honestly say that in certain instances I guE•ss ministei"S ··· and I am ned: sure; I I1E!VE•r IAJas a rninistE!r and I really do not know if ever· I want to be one, considE!d.ng the hard times l:hat somE! of thE!SE• ministE!rS arE:~ getting .... ar·e IAJrong somE:~tirnE!S not to ansWE!r a questton, becauso it only causes more controversy and rnorE! agrumE•nl: and giVE!S a little bit ITIOI"E' aiTirnun:.i.l::-.i.on fo1" t.hr! han. members on the oppos:i.I:E! side. I havo problems, Mr.

Speaker I IAJ.i th some of the members of the OpposiLi.on bc::~causE• some of t:hern are very good friends of mine, longtime friE!nds. I must say that most of thPITI do behave in a way that if thoy do make a comment acros:~ thE! floor' Lhey usuc :dly look L932 June 22, 1989 Vol XLI over at me and rny hon. coJ.league from Placentia and grin or tAr:.Lnk and say. 1 We got you again. 1 In that type of, I guess, atmosphere I enjoy being in the House. I certainly do, becausE!

I know that what j_s corning is not neCE!SsariJy serious comments to \:hE! point where they are trying to upset anybody or get anybody against thE!m, it is just a mat ·ter of doing their job. And, of course, \:he::~ cliche or thE! st.aternont. that good Opposition makes good government is also true. I agrE!e with that. I think that \:he bEd:l:er \:hat this Opposition is the bE!tter IAJE! 1Ad11 be as a government. And I have no probJ.erns with that. Also. Mr. Speaker, I IAJLL1 rnakE:! a brief comment on \:he program \:hat., from IAJhat I can ga Uwr·. j s pu l:: on hold for further investigation.

My hon. fd.end for fiU111ber· Va:J 1E!Y (Mr. Woodford) brought the question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture re the school rniJ.k p1nograrn . I, for· one, M r . Speaker , and I do no t k now if I a 1r1 s p e a k i n g h E:~ I" E:' a g a :i. n s t· n 1 y g o v e r· n rn e n t o I" F o r rn y 1:3 o u (! r' n rn e n l: • cE·r·tc:dnJ.y agr·ue that. that pi"091"dl'll wi Ll b::! a \!JOI"\:hwhile pr·o<Jl"dln. ;·he· rE•ason 1 arn say:i.ng 1 1AJ:L1J' :l.s because I firmly believe that: this govt:~rnrnent w:ilJ. imp1t=!ITI€:'t1l: !:hat: progr-·a1n as soon as thc!y can ~:;cd: thE!

IAJhPeJ.s in 1not:i .on l:o do :.i.t. l hopE! l:hey do, and I congr·at:ulal:E! thE! m:l n i. s t e r on h O\AJ he hand 1 E:! d l:hat . I was lucky enough, i"lr. Spc!alu :!l", to have t:he hon . HIE!illbE!r' for · Huml:l(!r' Valley, IAJho is a 1ongt.ili1E! frit::!nd oF mine and a Far'lllel~. :Ln on ihu estimatos on Agriculture and Forestry. Of cour'SE!, the lflan :is an E!XpE!I"t in his Ol!Jn riqhl:. l~e ha s walk E!d lhr·oug h j t and he hiE shovcd1C'!d :it For· a long t.i111e, and I guess hE! is st:i.l'.l :i.n hE!r'e at No. 18 R~J3 ;~

it. I was very pleased to have him there because basically when the han . member gets up to ask a question he knows what he is talking about, and I think that the minister enjoyed the fact he was wJ . t h us . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, in the Development Department, and I am sort of going to go between the DE!VeJ.oprnent and Mines and Energy because I want to make a few comments on the megaproj ec ts that are loom.ing on the horizon for Newfoundland, I know that the han.

Premier has announCE!d an Economy Recover·y Team or an Economy Team to look at NewfoundJ.and 1 s future, and I know that group will in thE! next Few years help bring Newfoundland probably further than we are right now, and I hope it does.

But I would also like to say, under the Development and MJnes and EnE!rgy portfol:ios, thai~ I be1ieve, and thJs J.s a personaJ. conunent, l~oo, that :if t.uE! do not get the Lower ChurchilJ. project on stream, if we do not get something to rE!place Long Har'bour, if we do not gE!t i":he l·libonl.ia dE!al startE!d, at lE!ast, :it is going to be a Jong tilnE!. and it is going to l~ake that. Economy RecovE,ry T<::Cilll a long tilTlE! to see somE! substantial gains .in thE! crE!ation of E!rnpJ.oyrnent. in Newfoundland. I was ver·y pleased lArith thE!

Minister of Development, in fact I was surprised, because !":hat particular department is a tough onE! and coVE!rs a lar·gc~ arTay of it.E!ms undE!r one heading, and for hirn to be in thE! situation to bE' abJ.e to anstJJer thE! questions, and to present to the committee l.933 June 22, 1989 Vo1 Xl.I government policies and plans for the future, I though was admirable and I thought he did an excellE!nt job. Mr. say whE!n the and Speaker, I oftE!n hE!ar peoplE! that Newfoundland was sold out we sold Upper Churchill to French Canadians, Quebecers, the deal that the hon. Mr.

Smallwood signed with Quebec was a bad deal. I worked in Churchill Falls - I am starting to sound like the han . member now on the other side who talks about the fishE!ry all the timE!·- I lAJorkE•d :Ln Lobst.J.ck, and I lAJOrked dotJJn Nor ·th for a nurnb(;.~r of months -·- AN l-ION. MEMBER : The hon. thE! rncmbE'r for St.. John 1 s South. MR . REID : The hon. rnernbE!r for SL . John's South.

That is who it is. and I knoiJJ at that. par t:i cuJ.ar t.ime that t.uhen I tuas lucky E!nough to get the job there :in the beginning, the last thing on rny mind, MY'. ~)peakE•r', tAJas 1.1Jho t.~w~ :; a c t u a 11 y <::J cd n g to r· C' a p U11=' benE!rits From Lhe Chul"chi1J fa11 s deal . At that time I was more interested in going down there and how m u c h I tAl a s g o :i n q l o rJ e i:. a n hour', hot.~J much rnonE:'Y I 1.1Jas go:i ng l~o make, than I lAJas .i.n IAJho IAJdS going to s=i.gn tAJhat dE!a1 tJJ~i .l.h IAJhoJn and for· how much.

I can honE'Stly :;ay, Min. ~3pedk(!l~, that go:i.ng back notJJ !Ad Lh Uw b:l .l of knowlE!dge that I haVE!, the bil~ of education that I got: a·ft.Pr 1 left Churchill Falls, that Joey Smallwood gave rne when I left Churchill Falls and we~t l":o Memorial University to become a teacher and got two degrees, I haVE! to honestly say thai:: Churchill Falls has certainly No. 18 R933

benefited me because I do not think I would be in the House today if it had not bE!en for· JoE~Y SmaJ.J.wood and the dE !al he struck with the French Canadians on ChurchilJ Falls. Who would think at that particular time in life that a l::i .ght b:i.J.l that my mother or I wa s paying for back ·in th oSE! days for $3.00 or $4 .00 a month would go to $250 or $300 a month? The reason I am making those comments, Mr. Speaker, is because I feel there has to be a deal negotiated with Qu ebec on the Lower ChurchiJ.l, and as good a deal as we can get .

I am sure the Prem ier and this Cabinet will work towal~ds gEd:ting a good deal, bu l: I just hop e, Mr. Speaker, that they do not let .it go down thE! drain because the deaJ is not sat isfact ory to oth er p eopl e in Newfoundland, other than ourselves. MR. SPEAKER : I rE!In :ind thE! hon . mE!mber that his time has elaps ed. MR. REID : Ca n I as k you, Mr . Sp E~ak e r, if I hav e had twenty minute s? Mf~. SPEAKER: FifteE!n . MR. REID: -r- -·w::i.f~C7:Lnish up, Mr·. SpE!akPr . SOME HON . MEMBERS : By leave . MR. SPEAKER : By leaVE !, MR. REID : Thank you, hon. r:p:!ntlE!ln~C•n.

I wa s s u r E• t h a t t hE! h o n . the H o u s E! Leader sa::id twenty minutes YE!Sterday, and you sa :id fifteE·n, and ther e wa s no t an agreemen t. Anyway, I tAJill finish up . L934 Jun e 22 , 198 9 VoJ. Xl.l Long Harbour, Mr. SpeakE!Y', is very, very important. The han. rnE!Inber for· Placentia (Mr. Hogan) is looking at me bE!Cause that is what he Wdnts to talk on latE!r on today . I do not Wdnt t:o :Lnter'fE!I~ with him.

The only thing I want t.o say to him is that t:hE=!re ar 'E! a numbei" of people in my doi str·i ct of Carbonear tAJorking in Long Ha rbo ur· , and I am as concE!rned about Long Harbour and what is going to happen to Long Harbour as any member of this House is . Om~ thing that maybe the Minis LE·r· of Environment and Lands tAJas nol: quite happy about, when I asked hi rn aft: e ~~ the do b a{: e s , tAla s t. h o fine system in Newfoundland for littering the landscape and the environment. We were talking about bottles, cans and diFfet"c~ni: th:i ngs on the sides oF the l~oacls.

I am a finn bE!liE!UE!r, Mi~. ~'3puakco!r', that the Justice system in Newfoundland is not handling the problem of li.tter and gar ·bage seriously enough. I really do not t.hink thE!Y have bE!E!n ~Ln a number of year·s. .[ took l::itne l:hr:! othC!r' day, Mr. ~)pE!aker·, to ~;top ~Ln e> c E! r l: d. i n a l" te! a i. n Illy d i ~; l·: r· i c t. ,:; n d ther· ::! wa~:; a big ~::i.gn up 'l'-1d ;~ ·:=nlL: H; o f $ 1 , 0 0 0 f o r· 1 .i t t e l" ·i n g ' a n d s o on ..

Ther·e was more gar·bage i.H'ound t: h a t p d r t i c u 1 a r s i r:3 n i n l:. h a 1: a r· e::• a than there was anywhere else on that road, and l:hal: r·odd L!Ji'ls su•Jen miJes long. That is an indication of hotAJ SE!rious somE• peop1t::~ in l:hi.s Province are taking those signs . I atn cel~tain1y sure l:hcll·: l:hc·I"C! .:.ti''C! t::i.ITI<::'S IAJhen you COUJcJ l:hr'OIAI a1·1 empty be<:.~r boU~le or can oul: oF the window and an RCMP Ofricer wou 1 cJ be bc!h:Lnd you .:H1d he u.tOtl; d SIAJE•r'VE! to gt:d: aiJ.Jay Frulfl :Lt . ral'..J·wr· than stop you and fine you. I think, Mr.

Speaker, Ju~;t::i.ce and LnvironiTienl: should take a stronger No. J 8 l:.hal: bol:h and l..allcl s st.and un f~9 3 4

controls in the environment and this is one of the things that cam e up in our Committee meeting. One final comment, Mr. Speaker, I want to talk about hydro power. I talked about Churchill Falls to a certain extent, but I wanted to talk about also the need for us in Newfoundland to develop enough hydro energy to be self-sufficient. We are gradually reaching the point where water pow er is supplying energy to us, but we still have to spend millions and millions of dollars E!ach year to gener ·atE! elE~ctr·icity at Holyrood. I think, Mr.

Speaker·, that th:is new gover·nrnent shouJ.d put emphasis on trying to bc:!c ome scdF-suffici ent . In or 'dE!r ' to do that the Lower Churchill proj ec t has to go ahea d. Wl th th at, of cour· se, Min . SpE•aker, I Clm all owed to speak on th e s ubje ct later on this aft ernoon and I might ha.ve thE• oppor·tuni ty to get up again and speak . On behalf of myse]f and the Vice--Chairman I want to thank the me1nb~:·r·s of thE:!

C:o1nmitteE! s -.i. n cere l y , b E• causE! t..UE! , .Li. k e I sa i. d when I began, did not have any problem. fhey were all very cooperatj ve and I think E!Very one of the ministers enjoyed the e u E! n J. n g s a n d t h e ITI o I" n i n g s t h a t I.IJ E• had in regards to questions. I thank the House Fo In bE:!ari ng IAJi th rn e a s C h a :i r· m a. n o f L h a t C o rr11 n i l: t E!

E• and I hope t.hat I can be of somE:' ~ssistance in the Future to the government and to t.he Opposition if the case or need arises. !~ight not..u, l"lr. ~3r-H:!dker, I would like to move that the Report be concurred in by the House. fhank you VE!Iny much . MR. HEWLE Tf: L.93S June 22, 1989 Vo1 XLI Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Green Bay . MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear·, hE!ar! MR. HEWLETT : I, too, enjoyed our Cornrni t tee, Mr . Speaker, and I certainly waul d like to second the hon. member's motion.

I wouJd JJke to complirnE!nt the very smool:h and efficient handling by our Chairman fr·orn Car·bonE!ar, and I i'nust say thE! debate was l<:,ad ably by the Co-C:hair'man fr·om Mount Pr:~ar·l. ~~y co 11 e aguE! s on t. he Co rnn 'd. i:. t. c E! cH k o d positive and sensible questiuns and the ministers for the most

part LAJE!I"r:! For-t:hcorn:ing. Incidentally, I do apologize t.o the Chairman of our Comrnit:t.C:!E! fo1n not making the litt.le social luncheon today but I was unavoidable det .:a:lnE!d. Yes, Ml". SpeakE!r, eVE!n l:he press al:l:ended our Committee meetings. Ouin Conllni t leE· dcaJ .l.. t.u:i l.h r Ol"C~. Li"Y and Agriculture, DE!Velopmonl:, Fisheries, Environment and Lands, M i n e s a n d E n e r q y . .I 1.1.1 i "l l 111 a lu• a fE!IAI br·ie ·f CUilllriOilLc; on C:!dCi"J d E! p a r t rn E! n t a n d s u 1 n u p t.u i l.: h s o 1 n E! general. remarks.

With r·~.:·gard to a 1nal::l:u1" l~hd'l. n1y C h i:t "i I'"ITid n IIIIo! l"l t :i (I 1'1 !'! d 1'1 lllOirl1::• nl·: '~ <J 0 with regar·d t.o our· bd1avj.or· in Lhe House, I wan\: to rnakr:; it: cl, ;!,H' that t.herE! :is noUdng pur·sonaJ Cl. g a .i l"l S t t h (.> 1"1 in :i ~:. l:. (' r· 0 (~ i·-fJ I'· (' S (.: !" "j and Agr·icuJ.turE!. flowcvur·, h_i.s Leader· sE•t down ~;o1ne prc=·l.:l:y tall and tough standards for conflict. of :int.E•I"Co•St l.IJhE!n thal:. llldl1 lAictS Leader of the Oppo~~it:ton, and that. :is what W(~ alnE! r(~ac t.i ng to. No . 18 F~ 9 3 r:)

I would say to the Minister of Development., Mr. Speaker, that he should be a concerned man. His department has a very broad mandat€~, but many of its functions have been superceded by the new Economic RecovE:~ry Commission. ThE:~ minister is now in thE! position of hav ·ing to play second Fiddle to a superminister from the university, an unelected superminister I might add, Mr. Speaker. I wonder· VE!ry much if that if good for our system of government. Mr. SpeakE!r, therE! is a saying that 1 It is better to be born lucky than r'ich. 1 ThE!

Minister of Forestry and AgricuJ.ture was lucky to be appointed at a time when the insec ·l: infestation in our forests is low. As thE ! rninistc:1r is fully aware, our society is split on th .i s matter . There are thosE! 'in our society who bE!J.:i .eVE! that the use of approved, legal pesticides is standard forest. practice. ·But, as I Found out at an environmental confer·E:~nce in Corner· Brook, where the Green Party was represented, there are those in our society who believe that the introduction of Bt, that forE!ig n rrd crobE!, is tantamount to thr·ou.r:ing acid on thE! face of the for·est.

So the 1ninisl:c~1" has to dr:!dl u.Jith points of view that are very divergent . As I said, t.he insect infestation is now at an ebb. Sooner or later, like t.hE! tidE!, ther·e w:i .1l be a flow. Then the minister will have a hard decision to make. His docis".ion this Y"!ar .involVE!S bul: a fetAl acres, but. a major· infestaU .on IALi.ll r·E·qui(' C> a very diFF .icult decis:i.on, u.d .th hot tE·rnp~;;~rs; on aJ.1 sides of l:hE! issue, and good luck wjlJ. do the minister no good under those circumstancos. The Minister of MinE•s and Energy l.936 June 27., J 989 VoJ.

XLI is a man who comes to his portfolio with probably more insider knowledge on his department. than any other minister in this House of Assembly. However, Mr. Speaker, his department handles a couple of matters on which hE! is J:i.kE!ly to be super·cE1dc~d by l:he Pl"E!rn-iur, namely, hydro and the offshore. Whatever· thE:~ merits or faults of the Meech Lake Accord, Mr. SpeakE1r, and thE!rE! ar·e probab1y divergE1nt opinions in this HousE!, the PrE!mier 1 s po s :it :Lon on thd. t matter cannot but do har'lTl to out" negotiations t.~.dth QuE!I:JE!C. I t~.Jould a]so warn the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, that :in ouin E!cono1rric environment there are people and forces at work who would just love t:o SE!e the ~l=i.bPrn::ia a~.Jl"E!E!llWnt. reopened, and not Fr·om thE! po.inl: of vjeu.J of the best :int .elnE•sts of thts Province . To the M'inistE!r of Fishc~ric~s, Mr. Speaker, I would say rw CE!rta:l n1y has his hands fu1l. FishE!I":iE!S dlne buffeted by many outside forces. I would sub1nit thal: hav"ing a dE·gree of power·, a de~)I"E !E' of c 0 n t l" 0 1 (I v 1:! ln 0 u r' F i s h t:! I" .i I'! ~. i. s l. he only way we are ever· gu..i.ng t.o geL our· tJJay wil:h r·egard to Lhe fisheries.

The current govel"nrnE·nt 1 s tJ.Jilnpi~;h ,:~t.t· .i.t:l .i<.l::• LOLAJards Otl:ctLUn and Federal-provincia1 relations, especiaJ.ly as it relates to fisheries, will get us nowhere. Ottawa w:i .ll not be i1np1"essed 1o~Ji t.!1 o u r lAJ i rn p i s h a l·: l: .i. t u d E! . 0 t l":. d to~J a , n o matter what party is in power, saves its lJJ:impish al:t.it:udE! Fo1n the international scene. To thE! Min::i~~ter of Env:.i.ron1nenL and Lands, Mr. SpeakE!ln, like l:he Minister of Forestry and Agriculture he has got a wide spectrum in hi s consLituency.

F a i r n e s s a n d b a 1 a n c P lAJ ·L .1. l h a v e l: o No. 1.8 R936

be on the top of his dealing with environmental issues. agenda in sensitive With regard to the Park Service under his jur·isdiction, Mr. Speaker, fairnE!SS and balance, the old 1 f 1 and 1 b 1, has gOnE! straight out the window. Six months ago Crescent Lake Pr·ov inctal Park was the only provincial park in the provincial system under construction. There is no construction at Crescent Lake Park right now, Mr. Speaker. Construction is going on eJ.sewher·e, at other parks in the Province. The pe1rk lAJas next to e1 gravel pit. The pit was ft'OZE!n.

Now the park is frozen, and the residents of the areas have neither a pit nor a park. That is fairnE!SS and baJ.ancE!, thE• samE! kind of fairness and balance I got when I got shut out of the roads program and nearly shut out of the water program. I have a community in rny district where water has to be delivered door to door by trucks because you cannot: havE! tA~ells on that island. ThE!Y got nothing. ThE!Y got zj_] ch. That is Fairness c~nd balance. Having the Prerrd.er as your minister is an honour, as the people from Baie Verte - White Bay and Bay of Islc~nds knotAJ, Mr. SpE:~aker.

It is not something that makes you Lhe subjG!Ct of a pE>\:_l:y vendetta. To the M:in:ister of Finance, Mr. SpE!aker, tAle did not ha1Je his department but his budget is involved in the departments that carne undeJ~ us. I lAJOuld say, 1 If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. 1 Now, our otJE!r'taxed population, Mr. ~3peaker·, are sayi_ng, 1 WE! cannot stand the hc::~at, gr::~t r·id of tho Kil:dJE!n. 1 1_937 JunE! 22, 1989 Vol XLI SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HEWLETT: Mr. Speaker, I indicated earlier that thE! prE!SS werE:~ tn at'l:E!ndance at our sessions.

To The Sunday Express, who I am sure attended on many occasions, IAJho caJ Jed me 1 Alvin thE! GrE!at 1, \:hey know by now, after watching b~ 1 E! vision , that Communist China is exactly what I said it IAJas, a Communist country, a country whE!re the po]ice forces and the arrned for-cos will oppose and, if necessary, murder the citizenry. I am not saying that is right or I like it, but I am saying that is the way il is. China can tur·n its face or' its back to thE:~ tAJor-ld as it SE)es fit, and thc:H'E! is very lil:t_le th<'-ll: WE' can do about :Lt. It has dorw it for thousands of years.

And when China turns it face i:·o Lhe tAla r' 1 d again , U1 C' lrJ E! s t C:! r· n tAJO I'' l d will bE:~ thE!rE! tAli th open i.H'JJIS because the Western world has done business with the totalitarian r E! gimes for hun d r E! d s we ar·e not about to is not right, bu\: it is. of year·s and stop n ot.~J . I L i S [:: h (! lAJ d y -L i: And to the PrE•ITiiE!r and the government, as a whole, l:hi.s government_ prondsud mt .lch and dE! 1 j_ V C:! (' E' d V lc! r y 1 itt 1 (! r::. XC ::• p l: taxes. Its EconoiTJ:ic CoJnJJJ:i~;sjon tA.Ji.ll malu:>. thE! ~3pJ~ung Li(jhl:s SC!('ill likE:' a gLirmnE!I~, Mr. Spuakcr·.

Th:is 90lJE!rnJnE!I1l: '.is E!COI'IOIIL i.cal_ 'ly conservative and socially COrJS(:H'VatiVE!. SOME HON. MEMBERS : flc:•ar, hear! MR. HEWLETT : Th:is lS government­cons c.ienc.;:~ . EUble says No. 18 a lAd th And about cold, c1tn.i.ca1 a JTJE!d-:locr'E' soc:LaJ you knotAJ tAJhat: l:he the 1uketAJarJrJ, 1 I I\ ~)3 '7

wtJ 1 spew thee out of rny mouth' . This gov ernm ent has no economic vision of tts own, either, Mr . Speaker. In short, Mr. Speaker, this government has no soul. It . is a cold , clinical gov ernment. SOME HON. MEMBERS : HE!ar, hE:ar! MR. HEWLETT : In contrast, Mr. Speaker, thosE: of us in Opposition, we have never felt so good, We are spirite:d, we arE! enjoying ourselves and we think we are doing well at th e people's business. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar! MR. EFFORD: You may as welJ E!nj oy it becausE! you are going to be thE!lnE! for a long tim £:~ . MR. HEWLETT : Yes, we hav e a. heart and a s oul, Mr.

Speaker. A note of levity before I clue up, t"lr. SpeakE!r. Tht:!re has bE:E!n rnuch talk in this flouse about L.iber·aJ. ft"ied chicken. Rurnour has it, f\1r·. Speaker, that Liberal fried chicken is all left legs and right wings in the box. Mr. Speaker, the Featherless bipE!ds oppos .ite : thE!Y stand on lhE!ir ]t':1fl legs, but when t:hE!Y fly, Mr . Speaker·, t:hQy fly on thE!ir right wings. But we in Opposi t.ion, Mr·. Spr::akt:?.r, as l~tas sa:i.d in thE• poE!In UlysSE!S, Mr.

Spt::::akE!r', 'We are one E:qual tE:tnper· of hE!tnoi c hearts, ' blooded on the 1E!adership o·F l:hE! tnt::rnbt:!r Fotn Baie VE:'rte --White P.c;y and dE "t.erm:lned, Mr. SpeakE•r, 'To stri•JE•, to seek, to find and not to yield. ' Thank you. SOME HON . MEMB E I~S : Hear, hc,~ a r! 1_938 Jun e 22, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER : The han . the member for Social Services . MR. RIDEOU T : Whose job is it to co -ordinate who is giving speeches? MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speak er. We arE! taking the same route you take over· there, Sir.

You do nol: know when t.o turn right, left, back up or stand on your hc,ad and everything comes out a babbJe. MR. RIDEOUT: Th ere will be no knives in my back, like you over there did with Leo. I'-1R. EFFORD : M r . S p e a k t:! r , I w a n t 1: o t. a k e 1-i 111 E! to m a k e a F t! 1.11 c otTII'I'IE! n t ~; , E! s p e c t a] ] y in tnE!lation l:o i:he hon. l:he II'IUIJibc:r for Green Bay, from whence he came from the eighth Floor.

I bt:!lieve just about every word he utters must have been knocked ini:o him by the fortnE!r, fotntner' PtneHiiE:!I" . l cannot talk about Lhe fonnc!r P t" e ITt :i c• r , b e c a u s e h E! iAJ a ~; l:. h c r· e :; u c h a shoi nt p::·r ·iod o ;=- 1-i•nr' :·:· ;c• ProvincE! ha r·d J. y knows he lAid s the r· E' at a 11 . H :is stay tAJa s short , n E! v e r to return to the: ptnl:!trt::i.Ut "S hj p again, dCCOt"d inr:3 l:o J"Utnou.~s t.:.UI It L•I •:J from his party, frorn hj. ~; cr.u1ctE. He just made reference to Mr. Barry ~nd what happened .

I suspect he had beLter wear a sta0 l v E! s t no t o n 1 y o n h :i. s b a c k b u !.. a J 1 iH'OUI1d. AN I-JON. MFMB E R: If there :L~: (:i naud ~Lb]r!) you shou]cl knOIA.I. Ml~. EFFORD : BE!1ieVE! rne IAJe favour. WE: and that I~Jas No. l8 did lhe Province i'l removed you people, the idea . It :is the 1\~)3 8

best thing that could ever possibly happE!n to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. After seventeen years, this Province could not stand another seventeen months or another seventeen weeks of Tory Government. The people of this ProvincE! reco gntzed that, Mr. Speaker, and the people of the Province made a move to rid themselves of the poor administration, the disoriented government that was here. They knew the drowning hour was drawing near and they had to moVE!, and the people of the Province moved wisely and removed them.

Now the changE! is here. the rea1 change; the alternative is here. and there is a bright light at the l=!nd of l:he tunnE•l for · the futurE! of this Pr·ovince. This administration, Mr. SpeakE!In, is gojng to make sure of that. Economic recovery is about to happen. Dependence on social assistance is about to fall off, not :i.ncrease as it has done over the past decade, and no member sitting on that side of the House can argue with that.

The fact is, we have approximately 20,000 people dependent on social assistance and, except for E•rnploym1:!n t opportuni t.i es. l:ha t nurnbE!r would incr·ease by 13,000 so that WE! would have approxi.rnately 33,000 people, :if the tr1H~ figurE• were known, dependent on social assistance. That :i.s as a result of poor administration - no direction, no long-term jobs, nothing except misery at all times, and that is what you are b r· a g g .i. n g a b o u t . I h a t i s IJJ h a t 1:. rw han. TTIE!HibE•r bragged about when hE! carne out: of the Eighth Floor.

Bucktngharn Po1nch, wherE! they L\JOuJd rather spend money on expensive fur·nj.turE! and E!Xpensj_vE! equiprnE•nt, Mr. Speaker, than to give it to L.939 JunE! 22, J 989 Vol XLI the poor peopJ.e of this Province . MR. HEWLETT: (Inaudible) furniture needs more (inaudibJ.e). MR . EFFORD : We inherited it. Unfortunately, L\Je cannot gr::~t rid of it·, bt:!cause it costs too much to gc~t rid of. We have to use it but, at the salTIE! time, WE! haVE! to wal:ch !:he pr::~ople of this Province go hungr·y bE!CaUSE! of the IJJay in which you spont l~.hr;• money.

You were a part of lhat administration and you canned: gel: away fro111 that fact . That is l.:hE! 1neason you are sitting over thr:!r'r:• and WE! ar·e s:i.tting OVE!r' hE!re, and we are going to stay over here, gE~ntlemen. We arE! going to ~~t ay over h ('! r e. , rna k (! no rni s t . ..-~ k H abo u 1: it! MR. MATTHEWS: Any more conflicts and we will see how long you will be over there. MR. FLIGHT : They do not know the meaning of thE! wor·d. MR. cFFOIW: BE!1:.ic;!ve !TIE!, they knOIAJ t.ilt:! lill :'d.n:i .li~J of conflict. They had lots of experience with conflict.

They spent sevenLE!::•n yedi"S rap ·i.nq lhn people of t.h:i.s Pr·ovjnce, C~b·in('l: Ministers signing contracts; the forll'lt:'r' m:in:i.s!:er' oF ··· in eXC(;!;:;~; ol· $1)00,000, 1A.1hen hE! was in Cabinel:. Now, talk about experience wi~h conflict! fhe for· tnur Min i. ~.l:ur· oF Health, his company and partners received $500,000 from the provinc:i.aJ treasury for rental buildings around St. John's. Ml~ . r'1ATTiiEWS: You ought. not br·:i ng t ha-L up ho r·e today. MR . EFFORO : No . 18 1~9 3 9

That is a fact. Does the truth hurt? You have been bringing it up. The member was not in CabinE!t when that deaJ. was made. He is getting rtd of it. That ts not conflict. Your leader knows fuJ.l well what I am talking about. When you are in Cabinet and you makE! a dE!Cision in Cab·inet that a rental accommodation is going to bring you 'in rnonE!Y, you can hide it, you can put it in trust, but the fact remains, it is still there. That is conflict of interest . MR. RIDEOUT: What does that have to do with the resource estimates? MR.

EFFORD: The fact remains that those experienced in conflict of interest are sitting over there, and you people know it all too well. I can go on and on. The for ·mer Minister of Public Works, put out rental accommodations to his carnpa:ign manager in Harbour Grace and his campaign manager in the d-.-i.str·icl: of Polnt dE! GlnaVE! to the tunE! of $175,000 a yE !dr, for build:in(_:3S the DE!palntment of Social Services were renting. No problem! That ts not conflict of int·E!InE!St; that :i.~; not heJp:i.ng h:.Ls Friends, that 'is not political patronagE!, is it.?

No, that j_s right, by their standards. fhe troubJE• :i.s, the:Lr standards are right for them and everyone el se' s a1ne wrong. If you l.\Jant to bd.ng up political patronage and political appointrnt:>nts, just ask me sometime. I sp1::!nt four years showing the people of thi s Province what kind of did l:ha t administration they had. I such a good job, Mr. SpeakE:~r. L94-0 JunE ! 22, 1989 Vol Xl.I the people woke up and saw what was going on. That is thE! rE!aSon why we are here, as I said earlier, and Opposition ITIE:'IrlbE! r S are over there. Mr.

Speaker, we are moving in a new dtrE!Ction, and the people of this Province can now halJI~ confidence in what is be ing dorw by this government. In reC€~nt committee rneE!tings hE!ld here in the House of Assembly and in the Colonial Building, as my han. colleague, the MHA For CdrbonE:~ar· said, the rninoistE!rS had no trouble whatsoever with answer·ing questions. lhe ol: .hE!r night, in my own estimates, we had no problem dealing with the quE:~stions at hand, unlike tiH~ YE!ars Wh(:!rl WE! would CUIOE' .inl:o l:hC!

Estimates Comrnitt.E!e and s:Lt doiAJn and ask quE•s l:ions ··- as I haVE! done f o r t he pas t. t h r e e y e a r s -- eli' I d never gel: a straight ansWE!r Ft"om t h e f o r me r P..h n i. s t e r of ~> o c :i a 1 c . ,Jervl ce s. In these Estimates Co111mittees, i: h E• and u1l U1 answers now are direct accurate, and they deal l:oda y' s neE•ds . AN HON. MEMBER : I could not get an answer las t night (inaudible). MR. EFFORO : Tl·wrE! al''e ansWE!r's lf yuu want l:o J.isten. Mr.

Speaker, the po int or lhjs whol1:! sysb~rn is t.hat. ti·H:!rE! i.·~; a n e w g o v e r n ITI e n t. , a g o v e l" n 1 n e n l. l.\J h i c h h a ~: d r I? a 1 i S l: i C V i E! lA I (J f I.~ I h <'< t 1:: h (' nE!eds of the peopJ.e iH'E•, not on1y the social no"•ds but LhE! E!COnuJni .c rtf 'e ds of the peop1e and the need to have our resources developed. WE! have enough resour·ces jn this Province tJJhich, if dE•velopE!d No. 18 R940

properly, population would not handouts. could support the of this Province and we have to be dependent on ThE! pE!ople of this Province should not have to depE!nd on social assistance to buy a few meager groceriE!S for th~dr table, or depend on six or ten weeks work to get stamps. In the past seventeen years they have lost all their dignity, they have beE!n reduced to going to companies and saying, I will work for nothing. All you have to do it give me my ljnemployment stamps. That is what the people of th:is Province WPre reduced to from one end of the coast to the other. in Newfoundland and Labrador.

They could not even scrape up ten weeks work, but now that is changing, Mr . Speaker. The people realize that change is coming and they are beginning to have somE! confidence in themselves. People are starting to rea1iZE! that there is some hope at the end of the - MR. SIMMS : MJ" . SpeakE!r, I do not bE•l:i.eve we have a quorum in the House. MR . SPEAKER : We have a quorum. The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR . EFFOIW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When you cannot take the heat, get out of the kitchen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR.

EFFORD: True words are the truth hurts, kitchen. being spoken, and so they leave the L941 June 22, J 989 VoJ XLI Mr. Speaker. we are going to be here for a long timE! yet and thE!Y are going to have to listen to true facts. They may be ab] e to stand up in Question Period and insinuate and try to create something, but whE!n they I·H:•ar thE! true facts. they run and hide. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) on the table? MR. EFFORD: Anything you want to put on the table, this hon. gentl uman lAd .l1 ansWE!r, and he tAd] 1 stclnd by any statements he makes .

If you have a question, anytime you wish to stand up WE! will anstuE!l'' i.t. f.lnd if I eve:~r makE! a mistakt=!, I lAJ:iJ] do ·lAJhat I did the othE!r day, [ will stand up and ad rJJ:it that : I rna d E! il m i s t a k e . T h a t :i s \AJ h a l: t: h tc! human factor is all about. Mr . Spec~ker, to continue for ' ju st a few minutes. In the Resource Comrnit.tee WE! t.aJ.ked about ont:! of the most important resources in the ProvincE•, the f:isheJ"y.

While l ·istc~ning to thE! eVE!nin(:3 nt:olAJS on teJ.ev:Lsion Jast. night I hear d tn en l: ion(> d t h c~ co rnrn-i l: t :c• e l: h a 1:. is going ar ound th e Pro vi nc2. Yo u talk about a r E! p e. at . I t h ink L hE! former Minister of Fi sheries and members of the former governm ent Lo.dJ.J d~jrE:'(:' IAJ:i th t.h: i.s, bC!Cd l~~ ;(! there havE! been enough stud te s done around th:i s Provj .nce on the fishE!Jny and l:hP situat.:ion w:i.!:h Lhe F:ishe•r'y. Whr-.lt ha ~:: no t. bE·cn don e·, federally and provinc ially, is enough proper acti on taken.

When the federal governm ent r c~ a l i l e s t h a L t h E! p In o b l E• 1 n l,i _i 1: h l:. h tc! Newfoundland fishery is caus e by OVE!rf:ishoing on thE! Gr'd.nd 13anks by Canadian and foreign traw]ers, thE!n our futuJ~e is going to takE! on a brighter outJook. No. 18 R941

Then they put grind ers on the draggers a f E!W years ago to grind up all the srnall f-ish they could catch and bd .ng in the large fish because of the bigge,st dollar, the biggest r€:~venue, and they we,re catching three or four tirnes their quota, our own Canadian draggers and foreign draggers, and that :is what happe,ned t:o our fishery. Everybody is alike. MR. SIMMS: The hon. memb er's time is up. MR. EFFORD: I was just getting started . I will continue lat er and giv e you a better insight into the fishery . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. mmnber' s t:i .HIE! elaps (~ d . I wa s about to say when I was interrupted .

MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Opposit::lon House Leader . MR. RIDEOUT: No, Mr. Spe.ab :•r . MR. SPEAKER: has that ThE! Leader of th e Opposi tion. I am son·y! MR. RIDEOUT: Right! Thank MR. SIMMS: · c-· you, ~)_Lr . It has only been six weeks . MR. SPEAKER: My apologies . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speake,r, I Jistened interest as l~he gentl( :!lnan Carbonear introduced Concurrence Debate on with for thE! \~he ResourcE's Estirnat.es her·e today.

I L'J4-2 JUnE! 22, 1')89 Vol XU particularly list ened with interest to his opening remarks, following in the usual line of lecture, I supposE !, that hj _s Leader get~s on w:i th from timE! to · time, telling us how we should perform in this House, what our responsibjlities IA.I('r'E:~, and I'101AJ IAJE:! should, to us e the Premi er 's favouritE! expression, "Dischar -ge thosE ! responsibilit:i €:~ s" and so on.

And, you know, it mu st be interesting for the hon. member, having given us the benefi~ s of his thoughts , to sit bac k and listen to his own Minister of Social Services just gE!t up and undo, to tally undo and de s troy <-ind take away any credibil ity w h a t s o E! v e r t o a n y of t h E· r· e III d r k s th;:;d~ the han. gr:!ntlcm1an F1'·om CCirbonE!i:H ' rnad E!. That is exactJy lAJhat the M:l.n:isb'•Y' of Social Services did. The decorurn, the rE!Spect, and so on, that: thE! gen\:lernan from Carbonear lAJaxed so eloqUElnt.ly about, was nowhere evident at all in his colleague, not evident whatsoeVE !r.

All he wanh•d l:o do was personally assassinate, for l:!Xd\Tlple' \:hE! rnc:!llll ::l!:!(' for (;(' ('!c•n Bay' who happened Lo oc cupy an ot her posit·ion :in t:hE! governmr:,nt of l:his Province at one tjme. That is not . thE! kind o F t h ·in g t h ,::; l~ t: h C:! 1n ember · for· Car·bonear ' 1.~1a ~:; !:·.i"t:lk.insJ abc1u 'L ai: all, I do not bE!l:ieVE!. He IAJdS going after us for being so unkind to the Pl ~c·mier·, and ~o unk:il'lcl i:o other ministers. Then his c o ll (:• a 9 u (~ q E! \:. s u p a 1-1 d 1: o !':. a ll y undoes or undos - whC~tever the prop er word is, - MR. EFFO fW : Backupable. MR .

RIDEOU T: Backupabl(~. a VE!ry good Wh::Lte Hay te,rm. I l~old you that~ berore and you shouJd check it, by thE! IAJay. No. 18 f\9 f~2

Remember what I told you before, too, that at something is backupable, Minister of Finance is not getupable. We saw that today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar·, hE!ar! MR. RIDEOUT: once least the even again We saw again today, Mr. Speaker - MR. EFFORD: You be nice. MR. SIMMS: ListE!n l:o who is is talking about being nj_ce! MR. RIDEOUT : Listen to who is talking about bE!ing nice! The problem tAJi l:h l:he Minister of Social Services, Mr. Speaker, is hE! has not: yet, after fiVE! or six weeks, carne to grasp the fact that he is a minister. He still thinks he is operating from this side of the House. MR.

SIMMS: Exacl:ly. MR. RIDEOUT: He gets up in ht:~ gets up in to a poi.nt and fro m he r·e. Question Per:iod, or· debatE! in response it 1nir:3ht br:' l"aiSE'd MR. EFFORD : You have not asked a question . Ml~. RIDEOUT: No, and I do not in'h~nd to. MR . SIMMS: HE!ar, hear! 1\ight on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear·! Mf~. RIDEOUT : I do nol: intE'nd, Mr. SpE!akQr, \:o l.9'D June 22, 1989 UoJ. XL.l ask a minister, who does not the courtesy, number one, to a civilized response, I do have give not. intE:~nd to ask that rninistE!r a question. Let rne tE!ll thE! hon. gE!nt.leman s ornE! Ul'.i n g , M r .

S p e a k E! r : lrJ h E! n I a s k a q u E' s U. o n :i. n t h i s H o u ~~ E' I d o not ask thE! questton looking For an answer. Unlike the Minister of So c i a 1 S e r vi c e s , w he n hE! l~J e1 s o 'J e r here asking questions, he did not know where he was shooting, tnight, left, center, in thE! dark or· IAJhat:, and every once in a while he happE!nE!d to score a hit. And he tAJas :i.n thE• dark qui l:E! oft.E!n, Mr. Speak~~ln. MR. EFFORD : I destroyed you fellows . MR . RIDEOUT: Y o u d e s t r o y e d n o t h i n g . [ 1~1 i .l 1. tell you what the han. guntlE'!ITICHl is dE!stroying, Mr.

SpE!i.'lker: He is destroying his ou.m credib:U tty and the credibility of this govE•r'nnwnl: and he is doing it very, very qutckly. He gets The National Enquirer award of the week, NE!WSrnakor of the Wcc•k r·r··om The Sunday Express, ,;;nd ~:: gc1-'s J"i c:;i·lt to his head, Mr. Speaker.

HE' l: lri n k s hE! has t h t'! lAJO r l d by t. he tail bocause The Sunday Express had rnade h-i.m NE!lAJSinai<E!I'' oF tht:; WE!ek, I bc:!]:Lev~~ in 'LhE• fjrst !Aleck he tAla s in Cabin o i:. .I b n 1 oi e v C:! .i. l: was the fjrst. week he was in Cabinr:•l: he.:• t;.Jas nuJninatc,d and gitH:n the NE!tAISITiaker' or the WE!E!k AIAiiH'd' and ever since that he is as cocky, Min. Speaker! YotJ see h: .im ovc'r thc •J"C• cluin.Lncj Quest: .. -.i.un iJc:ri rJd, 1 Ask rne a ~uestion? Ask me a question?

I would LikE• t:o gei: on teJ.evision today, I haVE! no l:: be<:!l'l on tE!lEwision, I have not go l·: l:E::n the Newsmaker of the Week Award lately. W·.ill thE! Opposition No. J 8 R94-3

please ask me Mr. Speaker, I gentlEnnan--MR. EFFORD: a question? 1 can tE!ll the And, hon. Did you not see me on TV last night? MR. SIMMS: We should try to get him on, bE!cause every time he is on -.it is bettE:1r for us. MR. RIDEOUT: I might changE! strategy on that. My colleague from Gr·and Falls is right .. I might change a bit of strategy on that next week and try to get him on morE! oftE!n. We just might do it, because ever·y tirne he gets on, Ml~. SpE!akel~, eve1ny t:LrnE! he and the Minister of Health, those two gentlemen in particular, and thE!

Minister· of Finance, thosE• t.hl~E!E! ministers, every time those three ministers get on television, Mr. SpeakE!r. the popular·i ty and the bloom starts to go off the rose . NatAl there is norma1ly a bloorn on the rose for· a few monl:hs. You could take Dau ·id PE!ter·son, For example, 1.uhere it IJ.Jent on For· t!AJO or three years. 13ut, Mr. SpeakE!r, the way that thjs government is performing. t:he bloom IAJi01l bE• gonE! off the rose within six months, that I can tell you. SOMF HON. MEMBERS : rlear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: You can SE!E! it in minister· after minister.

The arrogance and the sc~lf --pompousness or the Mtnistt::1r of Social Services! He thinks that he is God 1 s gift to politics in Newfoundland c!nd Labrador. He is so full of himself, Mr. Speaker, that he had to get a lar·ger· jackE!t \:o r:3o d01.un l:o L94-4- June 22, 1989 Vol XI..I Government House to r3et sworn in as the minister. His chest just about busted. The arrogance of the Minister of HeaJ.th! ThE! silE!nt, inE!pt Minister of Finance!

All he can do in Question Period, with the galleries looking down on h:i.rn and l:he rE!portel~s and Lh(! media J.ooking doLAm on him, is rn:imic his mouth at somebody over here asking a question. He cannot get up and get sound to come out. Then, on top of jt. a11, of course, thE!rE! is the tlnE!mendous aJ~roganCE! of thE! Pl~(; ~mier . So, the pE!Opl E! of this Province are seei ng very, ver·y quickly that th: i.s governrnc:!nl . is a gover·nrnent thai: is going to be a one -term government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar. hear! MR.

RIDEOUT: Thi.s gouern1T1ent IAJ:.LJ.] be a onE!- ter·rn goUE!rnrnent unless l:hr:• Pr'E!III''Lul~ star·ts to make some moues, ]:ike rno,r.ing the M'iniste1~ of Finance straight out of the Cabinet. MR. CRIME~3: L :i s t E! n l o t i·i e u n E! ·-1 no n L: h P I" <::! 111 :.i. u r · . MR. RIDEOUT: rhe one -month Premier . fh~t ts fine. I h~~d no dc~;.-ir'E' to hr'ln~J on t o t h e P 1~ E! rn :i c~ r s h i p o F Ud s Province, or the leadership of this party, or to hang on to anythin~1. Hll.::! peop] c had t.hv r· t g h l:. l: o rna k :::• a d c c i s ·j u n • 1·: h ::• y made it. and I respect thaL.

I have no desire to hang on. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear·, ht-:.ar·! MR. RIDEOUT : I have no dE!Sir·E! t:o hang on whatsoever. So when the people ma k c:• a dE! cis :ion I res p (! c l: i l: . No. 18 r\9 4 tJ.

Forty-eight per cent of the people said they wanted me to stay on. Forty-seven per cent of the people said they wanted the hon. gentleman. The man that I see in the galleries practially every day since the House is open, every hon. lady and gentleman on that side, u.JhE!I1 thc~y sec~ the LeadE!r· of the NDP entE!r this House, should do this: They should kiss his fe!et and kiss the feE!t of the NDP because it was not the majority of the electorate of Newfoundland and Labrador who decided the governmE!nt. The rnaj ori ty did not vote for the government. Forty-seven per cent voted for the government.

With the total collapse of the NDP vote they were able to get ten seats more than we got. Therefore, every day you should go thank PE! tE• r Fr::; nwi c k F 01~ getting out, you shouJ.d genufJ.ect. to Mr. Newhook IAJhE!n hE! comE!S into the House, and you should thank your lucky stars that hE! led that party to a d:isastE!r. You are the people who gained from that, we did not. I say that frankly, 1.1..1e did not but you did, and that i.s how come you arE! ovE·r therE!. In our system that is fine and 1 have no quar1~e1 with that. But let t.he cred i. t go, Mr. Speakc:H', to the place where it is deserved.

It is not deserved with the han. gentleman on the other side. It is deserved with a person who does not have a seat in this House. That is where it is deserved. That is how COllie you drE! OVE!r' thE!l"e. ~3o I say to l:.hE! hon . gentleman, Mr. Speaker·, enjoy tt. You have goLL~!n atJJFul cocky. You haVE! go t:te n aiAJfu J. ar-rogant. You are not worried about the people of the Pr·ouince, onJ.y to sock it to them in tax increases, to get into their pockets and haul out $100 million in tax increases.

You are l. 9 4 . 5 June 2.?., 1989 Vol XLI worried about that but you are not worried about the peopJ.e of the Province and longevity in governme!nt. So stay on the road that you are on. I should not be giving the governHH :~nt this advicE!, Mr·. Speakc;r, but you h(Jar it everywher'E! you go :Ln the Pr·ov:Lnce no1.1..1. Stay on thE! r·oad, do not dither, do not dE!tour, do not. move, stay on that road and we are in good shape. We arE! going to ensurE! that the goVE!rnmE!nt is kept: on it. I am not going to worr·y about the member For Carbonear, whether he J.ikE!S the IAJay I ask qu€:!st::.i.ons or not.

WhE·n I was in gov:,!i~nnwnl:· I did not Jj ke thE! lJ.JClY the M: in::i s Lei" of Social Services asked questions. He did nol worry about that. MR. SIMMS : The Speaker sa id y () lJ askE!d excellent questions . MR. RIDEOUT: I had th~~ ~)peaker· give 1nc the gr·eatest vindicatio n [ could euer want in prj .vat.E! sess:Lon ye sLE•r 'ddy about hoiAJ I ask qucs t.ions. So T c o u 1 d n o l: c a I" e J ;:• ·::: ~~ L•J h l'' l:. h c I" rn y style or thE' way I as k quest ·ions or the sub j E! c t rna t t e r p J l:! c~ s E! s h on . gentl(~rn~-..n on the o l:her· side .

I dill not here to please hon. 9!.: 'nLJuiiit •r; on the othc;r· sicll~. rha.t is not ;ny roJ.e hE!rE!. That: js noL t:he l~o]e of l:he Opposit.·.ion. And l..hE!Y dl~e noL l.h(•r·(:! t:o pJ.ea~;( :! u~:. You cH'C' therE! l:o goVE!rn and lAIE! c'11~ ::! Lh c•r'(' to offer co1npet.c:~nt, Ci"ed:ib]c opposil~ion i:o Lhe govel"nmenl:, dnd Lhat is what we are going to do. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUr : Mr·. !: hE! ~)peaker, thts flouse so r·ar·, time that we have been j n in No . 18 R9 4.~;

session, has sc::~en the best opposition since Confederation. No doubt about that. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: We have SE!E 'n Uw worst governm ent, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUf: You know, Mr . SpeakE:H', normal1y it takes a government five or six years - MR. EFFOIW : Look how long you lasted. MR . RIDEOUT : I can shout just as loud han. gE!ntlernan, I ctrn not abou t him. as the wor·ri('"d Normally it takes a government five or six years to become as arrogant as this government has become in five or six weeks. Jt normaJ.J.y takes five or six years.

But if this government continues on on thE! trE:nd that j.t is on now, it will not last this term, it wi11 not last this mandate, becausn thE! paJnty is sta.ri:inq l:o fa]] apart at l:. hE• s E'!i':Hns . We s CliAJ l:hat u.J:ith the M:inister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, anothr:'l~ Walking Contradiction. He cannot even hoJ.d on to his Executive Assistant. We saw that. We know that the LiberaJ. Youth Federation in l:his Prov·ince, Mr. Speaker·, is as rnad as a room Fu 11 of hornE' t:s. W(:: kno w i:ha t they are J.ivid wjth this government, the Liberal Youth Federation.

We know that some stalwart party supporters are livid with this government, so thE!Y cH'E! bolting, Mr. Speaker·, L94-6 June 27., 1989 Vol XLI already. We know this from the backbenches: There are two sectors in the government; there is what you would call the old crowd and the young crowd. And the Young Turks are driving the ministers mad, we know that for a fact. MR. SPEAKER : Order, plE:'ase! Order, p1ease! The han. member's time has eJ.ap sed . MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: It being Thursday, 4-:00 p. rn ., I want to advi se the Hou se of the questions for the Late Show.

Question No. 1 the LE•ader of it is to UlE! space leasE·d Minister of Agriculture Cor·poration. is fr orn l:he hun. the Oppo~~:.i.t:i.on dnd P r erni '·"I" n::: g ani j_ ,-1 q by the hon. the For·es t:l~y dnd to the Liquor Question No.2 'is fr·om thE! hon . L:he rnernber for· flun1ber· Eas L dnd :1.1. is l:o l:hE: il~inisl:el" ol' Mun:iciF1a1 and Provincidl {) r"r a:i .I"S Oil L!lC' qUE!Stion that shE! posed toddy during Question Perjod.

ThE: third quustj on :i.s h·u~n t:l·,e han. l:hE! member for Gr·dnd Bank, and he :is nol: sat_jsf]E•d IAr.i+h l.:hf '' response to his question by the Minisl:.er of Fj_nan c~" pert:a :in:.iJl~J l:o l: hE! v a,~ ·i o u s f c E! i n c I" e c_~ s c• s i n {-: h e 1989---90 budg et: . l'hese are the questions. T h e h 0 n . t h e ITI P Ill b E! r f 0 1'' P 1 a ct:! l'l'l :i. d . MR. HOGAN : I was wondering today SE!ction of the Resource to uJhat ConunitLee I \JJas going to add(·es s lilY r·c:•rnarks, No. 18 f\ 9!16

and it was shortly after lunch when something came to my ai:tE!ntion, that storm troopers, in the gujse of fisheries officers, went into Fair Haven and cl6~ed the fjsh plant there without notice and seized three tractor loads of fish. And we wonder what is wrong with the fishery? One hundred and twenty thousand pounds of fish, Mr. Speaker, we1ne seized from the fishermen of Southern Harbour, Little Harbour and Fair HaVE!n, who, by the way, did not do very well in the caplin fishery and were looking forward to a good codfishery.

To give you an idea of some of the things the fishermen are encountering, lr:'t me r·ead 1.uhy the plant tAJas closE!d dotAJn w:i.thout notice: 1 ThE! floors IAJE!rE:' tAJet; thE• floors had slight depressions in thmn and formed small pockE:~ts of wate1n. 1 I cannot exactly make out the writing. Ihe person who wrote the inspE!Ction rE!porl: cannot writE! too well, along with his other failures. 1The floor joints are not cur·ved around the support columns.

The drains: The main FJoo1n drcdn is not Jnod(!nt proof, therE! is a l:wo inch h o 1 e in :it . 1 I guess one of these storm troopers crawled into it. 1The tAJalJ.s: The loLUE!r SE•ct:.Lon of t:he procuring area walls is not the right colou1n. 1 SE!rious stuff, Mr. ~3peaker, SE!r':ious stuff! 1 The ceilings: fhere is a cold water pipE! that: is suspended f'rorn the ceiling and should be insulated. Two light fixturE!S not in place.

Hand washing fa c i 1 it ~i E· s : There lAJa s no ~~ o a p there and there was not a single-·use t:olAH~1' --· thE!rE! was a roll of totAJE!l papE!r there .inst:ead of t.hc:~ singJ.e--·use ones. And, to bE!at .it all, 'The toilE!\: L947 June 22, 1989 Vo1 XLI factli tiE!S: self-closing. 1 doorknobs. The doors ThE!Y had i.H'E! to not USE! 1The split:·ting tablE• has a plytAJood top. 1 I think that ts a SE!r:ious one. 'It ts not an approVE!d ma"t.E!rial. The fr·arnes and leg~; on the splitting tables are constructed of wood, wh::Lch j.s aJ.so not an approved rnatE!rial. 1 For this, Mr.

SpeakE!r, 150 fishE!rrrJE!n lost 120,000 pounds of fish, and tomorrow they have to take in their nets becauSE! thE!Y tAJiJ.l h,:.PJE! no place to sEdl their fish. We stand in this House, on both sides, and, as I satd in rny ma:i.den spE!E!Ch, if I could l·:ake orw subject in this House that has been addressed most articulately, most professiona11y and lArith thu unanimous suppor·t oF etJr::•('Y pei'':-:.(Jn in this House, it would be t:he f i s h E! i~ y .

W •:! rn :i g h l: h d \J e differences on approaches or· policiE!S or lAJhateVE!r, but the suppor·L was ther·e, the comrnon dE!nornin<.'l.l:or was thE!re l:o l•':!atJe no stone unturned -l:o suppoJ"t out" fishE!ry. ThE!n, tArithout not:icE!, Lhc:!y did nol: euen have the courlesy to g0 to the process operator -by the way, that is our plant. That is a provincial plant:. AN HON. MEMBER: Who is the operator? MR. HOGAN: KE!V"Ln lrJi.'ldlndn. The f.ishc~l"i!O!S inspE•ct:ot·, I l:hink. ev\:!n J.iuE=!s :in t:hu cornrnun:i.l:·y t.~ril .. h Wadman. He drotJI':' pasl: hi .. ~; doo(', wenl:: to ~3l:.

John 1 s and ~;ent. h::Lrn a Fax, and bE!fore LhE! l"ax E>\JC•n qol: to his office and could be interpreted, because the writing, as I said, lAJas not that ~~oocl, t.hE! fisheries inspect:ors were into No. 18 F~9'n

Fairhaven with a tractor trailer and forkltfts. I do not know if they had an armored car, but a lot of gE!ar went in there, and it was not fishing gear, to seize everything that was in the control of thesE! peoplE!. And WE! ask ourselves every day what is wrong with the fishery! I understand from our provincial department. - I am sure the Leader of the Opposition is familiar with it - there was financial assistance given to the owner by the department, probably when he was Premier, to upgrade the facilities a certain amount. I do not know the number of dollars right offhand, but in th(;~ neighborhood of $5, 000.

That work was done and the other work was ongoing. But l:he f'"·ish could not wait For the soap to comE!, t.hE! fish could not wait for the towels to be single-use instead of r·ollc~d, and l:hE! cap lin could not take the doorknobs off the door so the doors would be self-closing. These people walked in and because sonre fisherman sa:Ld to them, 'Boy, you aJ~c:! not takinr.:3 thc-J.1: fish out of hE!r'E!, ' they had tl'lC:! ga11 to go off and comE! back v..ri th thE! RCMP. And lAJE! ask ourselves what WE! can do to support thE! ftshE!ry!

T do not know, but I have been speaking to our own officials and they have been attemptjng to talk to the foderal people. I say atl:ernpting, b(;~cause' I do not thjnk ther'e i~~ anybody on the other end receiving. Min. Speaker, all members of this HoUSE!, a11 peopJ.es of t.his Province, if we are to be of to to successful in the undertaking the fishery, surely God we have bE! ablE! to J.istE!n to, we have bE! able to communicate with, we have to be ab] E! to deal these people who are in and v..Ji t h Ui(!

L94.8 June 22, 1989 Vo1 Xl.I fishing industry with some sensitivity, with some hE!art., sorne compassion and a little bit of leeway. I am fully cognizant, learning from rny friE!nds hE!rE! in the House of Assembly, on both sides, of ·the nE!cessity oF qua1 :i.ty control and aJ.J. th(;~Se things that have to b(! done to improve our fish as it gE!tS to thE! market pJacE!, but the House rules will not perrnit lnE! t:.o say what I thj nk of this p:i.E!Ce of paper. That is just n.it:--p.icking. That is going too fa1~, Mr·. SpeakE!r, in squashing the livelihoods of some 150 families. AN HON.

MEMBER: . - Were they federal offtcials? MR. HOCAN : YE'S, federal. off:Lc:ials. I ~;uppo~~E! ours would do thE! Sdlile l:hing bul: For the fact that thE'r'e :L~~ ~~Oillt:' understanding amongst them, which was bred into them over the years. Mr. SpeakE!r, this kind of high -handed approach has to stop.

It just hc01~; to our·so1ve~: b]ue but if WE! do offici.als latAJS oF per·t.a:in:ing other 1aws, is LI.Jhat js rE!prc::~sent:ing in our to God out us. stop. ~'\le c.:Hl l·:.d l k in Lh,:· !"ace:! here, not educate our administering the 1and, l:he 1 i'1l.~Js the fi::;hur·y and h e l p u s ! .i f l: h .L s :Ln the t.uorkplace It has d:i.st:racl:.ed rne, Mr. Sp E!a kur, From lhe proper approach to tho subject t:oday, which is the f~ e sour· c e Co rr11ni. t leE! .

I IAJO u 1 cJ 1 i k H t:o exprE!SS my gJ~at .itucic:! l:o ;ny fE!J.J.ow HIE!rnbers on t.he CoiTlnd.l:l:.ee :in addressing i:he various dE!pd.rl:rnent:s and the:i.r es ·UITiat.es. I concu1" with our· Chairman's r'elllarks t'l.bout alJ SE!VE!Il HIE!IT!bers, CO--Chi:-J.:i .rE!d by the lflt:~rnbc:!r' for' Car·bone<.H' and IllY No. 18 R9'l -8

good friend, the Mayor of Deer Park, who is not here today. We talked about how it should go, WE! laid down our own rules, we worked at it, and everything went fairly smoothly. Some pointed questions. good questions from all members of the Committee were put forth to the ministE!Ins. Some items which probably de.serue my attention today just escape me at the moment, Mr. Speaker, because of the urgency of this matter in Fa:ir·haven, and I alfl probably running out of timE!. But I would like to comment on work:ing Lui th Mr. lrJindsor. whom I have worked w:L th bE!fOrE! ··· not Min.

Windsor. the Mayor· of DE!E!r Park. the member for Mount Pearl. It was quite an experience, a good learning experience. I certainly admire his knowledge of the subjects we discussed, E!UE!n those portfolios he did not serve in. I am sure it was a learning experience for all the rookies who were on the Committee with him. I would feJ.low reiterate members who the remarks of talked about i:hE! E!nuironmE'nt and l:he pinoblems along our highways and bytJ.Jays. littering and the destruction of our forests and our waters.

If thE'r~· is one th ·ing we should undertake j_n this House, it. :i.s to educate our· fellolAJ Newfoundland(H'S and visitors alike. Il is only some of them, because there dre aluJays a fE!lAJ who spcd.1 things fo1n Uw majority. If they would tl"eat their environment a little more s E! r· i o us 1 y • and if i: h r:! y wo u 1 d . for want. of ci bE!tl.E•r Luoi~d. c}E!c~n up thc::! ·ir act dnd trr::~at tl'l(~ir surroundings pr