VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. MONDAY, APRIL 11, 1983 NO. 17

April 11, 1983 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 811 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, when this Province acquired the controlling interest in the Churchill Falls Labrador Corporation there was representation from Hydro Quebec on its board of directors.

After obtaining control of the company in 1975, the Province replaced the BRINCO directors with its own nominees but continued the practice of allowing representation from Hydro Quebec on the board. Hydro Quebec never was in a position, as a minority share­ holder, to claim seats as a matter of right in the board­ room of CFLCo. BRINCO presumably thought it in its best interests to have representatives of the purchaser of substantially all of the corporation's output on CFLCo when it agreed to Quebec representation first in 1969.

After 1975, after the BRINCO takeover, this Province, as majority shareholder, continued this practice in the hope that the resultant contact and interrelationships between Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro's nominees and those of Hydro Quebec might serve to assist resolution of issues between their respective governments brought about primarily because of the unjust and inequitable contract for the sale of Upper Churchill power. Most unfortunately, this hope proved in vain. This act of good will on the part of this Province in continuing Hydro Quebec's representation was 1804

April 11, 1983 Tape 811 EC -2 MR. MARSHALL: ignored. Quebec continued to disregard our legitimate and reasonable request to address in a substantial manner readjustment of what is generally regarded as the infamous Upper Churchill contract so that the people of Labrador and Newfoundland who own the resource might derive a reasonable return from it in relation to current and future circumstances. The last meeting that occurred between the governments was one beb1een the han. Yves Duhaime, the Minister of Energy and Resources for Quebec and myself.

As has already been reported, this meeting proved merely to be another fruitless exercise in the long series of efforts on our part t.o have the Opper Churchill situation addressed in a meaningful manner. 1805

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 812 JV - 1 MR. MARSHALL: On my return I wrote Mr. Duhaline expressing disappointment and stating that this Province's position was that a resolution of the Hydro impasse between our Provinces required Quebec addressing in a substantial manner renegotiation of the Upper Churchill contract. At the same time Mr. Duhaime was advised this Province was willing to negotiate if Quebec was prepared to address the issues in a meaningful manner such as described in my letter. Sometime later he responded merely saying my letter raised interesting issues and perhaps we could discuss them sometime.

While these letters were released before,they are appended to this statement to refresh the memories of members. I might just say Mr. Duhaime's response to my letter was brought to the attention of members it was very brief, it was a letter of November 18th written in response to one of October 27th, 198t, to him was not received in my office until December 11th, 1981, so it was on his desk three weeks before it was mailed, and it merely said "I acknowledge receipt of your recent letter in response to our meeting in Halifax,and I thank you.

I have read it with interest and great attention but would prefer reserving comment at this moment. We look forward to having the opportunity of further discussing the matter at a mutually agreeable date." The mutually agreeable has not arrived Mr. Speaker, because that is the situation as it presently exists, and we still await an official written indication that Quebec is prepared to address the matter seriously. Shortly after assuming responsibility for Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro in 1806

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 812 JV - 2 MR . MARSHALL: September of 1981, and after reviewing its affairs, I questioned the purpose of a continued Hydro -Q uebec presence on the CFLCO Board . Following Mr . Duhaime's response, that letter that I referred to Mr. Speaker, which at best can only be regarded as a coarse indication of Quebec 's intent not to address this urgent issue in any serious manner but to continue to rely upon its perceived contractual rights extracted from its superior position in the Canadian Confederation - 1807

.. April 11, 1983 Tape No. 813 MJ - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: I again requested the reason for maintaining this representation. It certainly appeared very difficult, to me, to justify, Mr. Speaker. On the one hand we would be sanctioning representation on CFLCO of those consistently intent upon inflicting an oppressive contract upon the owners of the resource from which this corporation derives its very being. On the other hand, the continued insistence upon the application of that contract threatens the solvency of the corporation.

It certainly does not appear in the interests of anyone but Quebec to maintain Hydro-Quebec's presence on the CFLCO Board, it did not last year either. But in response to this questioning as to why they should remain on the Board, the response to this question was that the Quebec membership on the Board was that new personnel were to be proposed by Hydro-Quebec to serve on the Board, which in fact happened last year. Notwithstanding the intransigent position of Quebec as recently reaffirmed in Mr.

Duhaime's letter, it was decided to permit once again the election of two Quebec nominees in the hope that the new representatives of Quebec might have been sent to the CFLCO Board to play a meaningful role in establishing the long sought after meaningful dialogue with the government in Quebec City. Unfortunately once again, Mr. Speaker, this action proved to ve in vain and it was found as the 1983 annual meeting approached that the membership on the Board of Messrs.

Guy Coulirnbe and Hoseph Bourbeau turned out to be as absolutely irrelevant to the overall situation as the membership of their predecessors had been. I mention all of these facts to demonstrate just how far this Province has gone in its efforts to achieve a negotiated settlement which will realize 1808

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 813 MJ - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL : a reasonable return to the Upper Churchill resource by its owners. It seems we always have to go the extra mile and indeed we have always been prepared to do so. To date, al l our efforts to resolve the situation through conciliatory acts and negotiation have met a stone wall . This reaction is evidenced when Quebec challenged our rightful request to recall necessary power in accordance with the contractual terms . It then forced us into the lenghty recall case and consciously employed every conceivable means to preclude an early resolution .

This in turn resulted in enactment of the Reversion Act, by this Assembly , the constitutionality of which is being determined by the Supreme Court of Canada . The intran sigent and indifferent attitude of Quebec has forced us to take, Mr . Speaker, yet another step, that is to replace nominees of Hydro -Quebec with residents of this provin ce on the Board of CFLCO . S0}.1E BON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 1809

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 814 JV - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Therefore, Mr. Speaker, acting on instructions of the beneficial owners of the majority of shares in CFLC0 1that is the Government of Newfoundland, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro cast its votes at CFLCO's Annual Meeting and were directed to cast its votes to elect two Newfoundlanders to the positions previously held by nominees of Hydro-Quebec on the Board of CFLCO. Accordingly, at the Annual Meeting of CFLCO held in St. John's on Tuesday last, April 5th, Mr. Fred Goudie and Mr.

Michael Monaghan, Q.C. were elected to the Board and now fill positions held last year by Messrs. Coulombe and Bourbeau. Mr. Goudie resides at Springdale and is well known and highly respected business­ man in that town. Mr. Monaghan is the senior partner in the law firm of Monaghan, Seaborn, Marshall & Roberts located in Corner Brook where he resides. These gentlemen will bring their valuable experience and talents to the Board and will join the continuing directors, Messrs. Victor L. Young, James J. Greene, Q.C., David W. Mercer,Q.C. 1and Brian c. McGrath.

This action results in CFLCO, the control of which was purchased at great cost to Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, having a board comprised entirely for the first time of residents of this Province. The selection of Mr. Monaghan and Mr. Goudie will assure more comprehensive geographical representation on the composite boards of CFLCO and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. Since these corporations are associated with issues vital to the entire Province, Government feels fuller Province-wide representation to be beneficial and these appointments allow this aim to be more completely realized. 1B10

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 814 JV - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Let me repeat once again, Mr. Speaker, in this and other issues affecting our relationships in the Canadian Confederation, this Governments earnestly desires negotiated settlements above all else. These settlements must, however, be good ones. They cannot be cosmetic in nature or resolutions at any price. They must be reasonable and give to the people who own the resource a fair chance to ascend the ladder of Confederation.

On the other hand, settlement cannot be attained unless the other side is prepared to show its sincere commitment to negotiate on a substantive basis. The open invitation to Mr. Duhaime to respond in this manner and his letter of reply to me shows Quebec not to be ready to deal with the issue in a serious manner. This leads us no alternative but to take the actions we have employed such as the Recall case, the Reversion Act and now the replacement of Hydro-Quebec nominees on CFLCO. Let there be no doubt as to the seriousness of our intent to gain justice and equity from the Upper Churchill.

If Quebec remains committed to following policies which will eventually bankrupt CFLCO., the presence on the Board of its nominees can hardly serve the interests of the Corporation. If it is bent upon delaying a reasonable resolution of the Upper Churchill issue, it is difficult to see how their 1811

April 11, 1983 Tape 815 PK -· 1 MR . MARSHALL: association with people who are integrally involved with government and committed to a just resolution of the Upper Churchill contract is going to serve anyone other than the Province of Quebec. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, may I draw attention of hon. members to the irony of the fact that resolution of two of the major issues affecting this Province today are being stymied merely because those with whom we negotiate refuse to demonstrate the sincerity of their intent in writing.

Faced with this we just cannot allow the legitimate aspirations and expectations of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to be toyed with and are forced to measures which we have taken. In the meantime, both the federal government and the Government of Quebec are just going to have to understand that we will not be dealt with on an unequal basis because of our geographical ~ osition or our small population and representation.

We merely want the opportunity for our people to be able to see the resources which they brought with them into Confederation to be used so they can achieve equality with the average Canadian and thereafter share more fully with our fellow Canadians. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: We seek, Mr. Speaker, equality as a Province and will not settle for colonial status within Confederation. This is our aim in these negotiations and in this administration. We shall continue to advance it calmly and coolly amd with as much vim and vigour as the occasion demands. Mr.

Speaker, the day this administration ceases to do this it will have lost its life and its very being. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1812

April 11 1 1983 'rape 815 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr . Speaker, that is the statemen t and appended to the statement for those who are interested are the two outstanding letters with respect to this issue which show concl usively the fact that the Province of Quebec has not shown any serious intent to negotiate otherwise they would have responded to the letter. And I say to the hon . gentlemen to your right too, Mr. Speaker, that the same conclusion pertains to the fede ral gove rnmen t in the offshore issue .

If people are serious in their intent to deal fairly with us and they have a sincere intent to come up with a reasonable, rational solution to problems why will they not put in writing what their understandings are. How can you deal with people, Mr . Speaker, who are afraid to put in writing their understandings and to put down what they deem to be reasonable. This government has done it again and again a~ the letters that are appended to this statement is an indication of the type of way in which government has dealt with other concerns in the past, will continue in the future .

We are not afraid to put our positions in writing and we ask from tho se which we deal with 1 no less from them. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear , hear ! 1813

April 11, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. NEARY: Tape No. 816 SD - 1 The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the bon. gentleman that the administration practice what it preaches and that they follow the same procedure as far as the teachers of this Province are concerned. What the teachers want are things they have taken for granted for years - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WARREN: MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oh. Order, please! Touchy, touchy. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the bon.

President I realize we hit a tender spot when we talk about standing U? for the interests of the Province of Newfoundland and that the bon. gentleman would try to slinge and veer away from the issue. But the point of this statement is the removal of Hydro Quebec nominees from the CFLCO board and the bon. gentleman is getting in obviously into the general realm of debate. If he has nothing to add to the situation perhaps he can exercise his rights and say nothing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear. Order, please! The bon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) rose on a point of order, the bon.

Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) was recognized in response to the Ministerial Statement and in the few words he had had an opportunity to say there was not much relevance to the Ministerial Statement and maybe he will be relevant to the statement. The bon. Leader of th.e Opposition. 1814

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 816 SD - 2 MR •. NEARY: ~rr. Speaker, the principle that the hon. gentleman just outlined of putting things in writing I would submit to the hon. gentleman that the administration practice what it preaches in connection with negotiations with other groups both inside and outside of this Province. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! A point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Your Honour called the hon. Leader of the Onnosition (Mr. Neary) to order.

It is my understanding :hat what the hon. gentleman is now talking about is negotiating with other groups. T.here is a statement that has been made here about the replacement of Quebec Hydro nominees on the Board of CFLCo. The hon. gentleman must address himself to the statement that has been given and not be allowed to hide behind other issues that he wishes to bring up in order to avoid commenting directly on a matter of importance to this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to confine his remarks to the content of the Ministerial Statement. The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is a very wide ranging statement. When you clear away the political rhetoric that was read by the hon. gentleman you will discover that all that is happening here is that the government are insisting on their right to appoint two Newfoundlanders to the Churchill Falls Corporation rather than have two nominees fro~ the Province of Quebec on the Churchill Falls Corporation. The rest of it, Mr. Speaker, is just a rehash of things that we have been hearing both 1615

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 816 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: inside and outside of this Rouse for the pa st number of years. It is obvious from this statement, Mr . Speaker, that the government are hurting, they are smarting, under the tremendous pressure in the Prov ince for the government to do something . And this is another camouflage another red herring because, Mr. Speaker, it will come as a surprise to the people of this Province to learn 18 16

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 817 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: that even though the government made a decision back in 1973 or '74 I think it was, to nationalize the Churchill Falls Corporation, to kick out BRINCO which was a good corporate citizen in this Province, that it will come as a surprise for people to learn that the government did not insist at that time that the Board of Directors of the Churchill Falls Corporation be made up of Newfoundlanders, even though we had the controlling interest in the Churchill Falls Corporation.

It certainly comes as a surprise I would think to many members of this House, as well as to the people of this Province. It is obvious, Mr. Speaker, that the government are desperate for another offshore controversy. They have dragged this in today as a red herring. The minister did not tell us anything new. He did not tell us for instance about the proposal that is on the table to develop the Lower Churchill, the Muskrat Falls and the five rivers with their headwaters in Newfoundland that flow into Quebec, Labrador.

He did not tell us about the package deal involving the re-opening of the Upper Churchill Falls contract. He did not refer at all to the corridor across the Province of Quebec. This was supposed to be the saviour of the Lower Churchill Falls project. And, Mr. Speaker, we were told for the last few years, and the people of this Province were led to believe that once the Parliament of Canada granted Newfoundland the power corridor across Quebec that our problems were over.

And now we learn after the act was proclaimed, and Newfoundland was given a power corridor across the Province of Quebec that now they had to sell the power, they had to get a buyer for the power before they could take advantage of the legislation that was passed in the Parliament of Canada. 1817

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 817 NM - 2 MR . NEARY : They were not ready, l-1r. Speaker . They were not ready . They told us they had it but they did not have it. And all this will do is just add more fuel to the fire, Mr . Speaker . There is no genuine attempt made on the part of the administration to sit down, man fashion, face to face, and negotiate a package deal with the Province of Quebec . This will do nothing . It will 1818

April 11, 1983 Tape 818 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: accomplish nothing1only just add more fuel to the fire, Mr. Speaker, and I will have more to say about this when I get an opportunity to study this document. It was only passed to me two or three minutes before the minister read the statement in the House. It will accomplish nothing, as far as I can see, except widen the rift between this Province and the Province of Quebec. Mr.

Speaker, in order to resolve the problem of the Upper Churchill, the Lower Churchill, the Muskrat Falls and the five rivers that have tremendous hydro potential in Labrador, there must be mutual trust, there·must be good will, there must be bargaining in good faith, and there is certainly no indication in this document that any of these ingredients are present, Mr. Speaker. All they are trying to do is just promote another contro­ versy to take the place of the offshore to try to distract and divert attention from the real problems that are facing the people of this Province. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Are there any other Ministerial Statenents? P~EMlER PECKFO~D: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: SOHE HON. ~'lEMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, today a consensus document on Established Programme Financing or EPF funding is being released in Toronto on behalf of all provincial Finance Ministers and Treasurers. The document informs Canadians of the potential serious impact on the quality of health and post-secondary education services resulting from the federal government's unilateral actions to change the EPF arrangements.

The measures currently proposed by the federal government in combination with major federal funding restraints implemented in April, 1982 will result in. New:fqundland losing over $145 million of funding for these 1819

April 11,1983 PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape No. 819 ah-1 programme areas by 1986-87. Last year the federal government eliminated the revenue guarantee component of the EPF arrangements resulting in the loss of $20 million in 1982-83 for this Province. The loss of revenue for the five year period up to 1986-87 will be about $125 million.

As a result of this change,the federal contribution to health and post-secondary education programmes dropped from 37 per cent in 1979-80 to less than 30 per cent , just a little bit less than 30 per cent in 1982-83, decreasing federal support to health and post-secondary education is part of a nation wide trend. The federal government is now proposing to segregate EPF funding into health and post-secondary education components on a two thirds/one third basis.

The post-secondary education component is to be placed under the new federal restraint guidelines which could result in the loss of approximately $20 million to this Province over the next four years. As in other provinces, health expenditures represent about 80 per cent of the total cost of providing post-secondary education and health services. In effect 1the federal restraint measures would have a spill-over effecton provincial health care funding,contrary to the federal claim that health programmes would not be effected.

We also anticipate that the federal government will soon attempt to introduce new standards and conditions for health and post-secondary education programme funding. These changes could lead to further reductions in the federal financial commitment to health and post-secondary education 1 thereby increasing provincial programme delivery costs. They could also restrict the province's ability to generate revenues directly for the delivery of health and post-secondary education services. To counter the negative affects upon post- 1820

April 11,1983 Tape No . 819 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD : secondary education and health care services of this unilateral federa~ actions provinces will have to consider either increasing taxes , increasing the size of the provincial deficits ,or choosing some combination of these measures . Neither of these options is desirable,especially during these difficult economic times .

On behalf of our Finance Minister CDr .Collins) and his colleagues from across the country I strongly object to this latest attempt by the federal government to transfer its deficit to the provinces, and I fully support in the name of the government of the province,the consensus document which I am distributing in the House today . This is a document , Mr. Speaker, which represents a consensus that has been forged by all the finance ministers and treas urers of the provinces of Canada . It is not Newfoundland saying this, it is not 182 1

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 820 NM- 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: British Columbia or Alberta saying this, it is every single Province of Canada, throuqh their ministries of treasury or finance, who have assessed the situation, see the absolutely negative impact that this restriction, and withdrawal of funds by the federal government, is going to have on health and post-secondary education. And we see the results of that already in most of the provinces where the treasurers, through their budgets, have had to cut back on post-secondary education, and on health care. So I table a copy of my statement, Mr.

Speaker, with the accompanying documentation and just let me highlight once again that over the next four or five years this Province will lose $145 million that it dearly needs tomaintainexisting levels of services in post-secondary education, and health care services. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, certainly nobody appreciates cuts in any area of public service, but of course this document is a difficult one to reply to. Mr.

Speaker, one becomes suspicious when one realizes the persons who ~repared this document, the provincial Ministers of Finance, all of which belong to governments whose determination is to undermine and flog the federal government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LUSH: They just have one ambition, Mr. Speaker, each of these provincial ministers have one ambition and that is to flog, destroy and undermine the federal government for their own political purposes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, I stood here and listened to the Premier make the statement and never said a word. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to be afforded the same courtesy. 1822

April 11, 1983 S0ME HON. MEMBERS: MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. LUSH : Tape No . 820 NM - 2 Oh, oh ! Order, please ! Order, please! And, Mr . Speaker, one would have thought that in these times of restraints , in these times of restraints eaeh of these provincial ministers would have come out man fashion, · as they do fed era lly , and try to get our people to unders tand the kinds of sacrifices that we have to make during these times of restraints. That is what the Province has been goin g on with, Mr. Speaker . That is what they have been going on with . 1823

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 821 MJ - 1 MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the EPF arrangement is rather difficult to speak to, we just got the document a few minutes ago, but my understanding, Mr. Speaker, of the EPF arrangements is that the finances are going up. The Premier gives us the impression that we are going to lose $145 million. Certainly we will lose $145 million according to the old arrangement, but in 1982, Mr.

Speaker, in joint meetings with the federal government and the provinces, they came up with a new arrangement, and this year this Province will receive more money for health and education than they did last year, and the next year they will receive more, but the Premier, of course, is using this, Mr. Speaker, to distort the facts and to try and exonerate this government from its own failure. The point of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, we will be receiving more money in this year and in every year until 1986, but the impression given here is to show that we will lose $145 million. Mr.

Speaker, I could use the same analogy: If all members thought that they were going to get a 10 per cent increase in their salary over the next five years and on that basis said we will earn x number of dollars but over those five years did not get the 10 per cent but only got 5 per cent, then they could go out telling people they lost the difference. That is the analogy, Mr. Speaker. The essence of it, Mr. Speaker, is that we will be receiving more monies. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): the hon. member has expired. MR. T. LUSH: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: 1624 Order, please! Order, please!

The time for the res~onse of By leave? No, no! Order, please! Leave is not granted.

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 821 MJ - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . S . NEARY : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell} : The hon . Leader of the Opposition. MR . NEARY : I saw the Minister of Public Works (Mr . Young) i~ his seat earlier but he is not there now since I cannot direct a question to him I will direct it to the Premier instead because, after all, it is a one man show on the other side anyway , Mr . Speaker .

Here is the Minister now , I I-70uld like to ask the Minister of Public \vorks if the tenders for the extension to Confederation Building are all in and what the situation is regarding the awarding of the contract for the extension to Confederation Building? I ask that , Mr . Speaker, even though I am against any extension to Confederation Building and building a ne\.,r House of Assembly and new of!:ices to expand the public service because there are greater priorities in this Province than putting an extension on Confederation Building .

But if they insist on going ahead with it , what is the situation now regarding the contract for the extension? MR . H. YOUNG : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the Mi nister of Public Works and services . 1825

April 11, 1983 Tape 822 EC - 1 MR. YOUNG : Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is against everything this government does except spend more money in the Opposition Leader's office. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: I would like for the hon. member to advise his colleagues over there - MR. NEARY: Answer the question. MR. YOUNG: I am getting around to it. This is a

preamble I am putting to the answer. If they would only just take the restraints in his office that this government has been taking. Now, Sir, getting back to the hon. member's question. Public tenders were called, Sir, and closed one day last week. Eight tenders were received and once the officials of my department recommend which tender, the contract will be awarded. MR. NEARY : MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker.

The hon. the Leader of the First of all, let me say that since I became Leader of the Opposition, I am not allowed to use the Conference Roomon the 11th Floor, our office grant has been cut - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: access to the - MR. YOUNG: MR. NEARY: SOME HON, J-1EMBE'l~S : MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEA,RY: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, they cut off our What about your phone bill? Yes, what about it? Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! What about it? Does the hon. gentleman want to talk about his and mine, or what? 1826

April 11, 1983 HR. YOUNG: will have a debate. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: Tape 822 EC - 2 I will talk about it if you Okay, fine. Order, please! I will be glad to talk to the hon. gentleman about it. But, Mr. Speaker, if they want to talk about phone bills, let us get it on the table and we will talk about them. They have denied me access to the transportation pool. The hon. gentleman has done everything possible to try to restrict and retard the activities of the Opposition Office, at least since I took over. But that does not bother me, Mr. Speaker. We will still manage to carry on.

But let me ask the hon. gentleman - the hon. gentleman said - MR. BARRETT: I heard somebody else is ~oing after your job. MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRETT: I heard somebody else is going after your job. Is that true? MR. TOBIN: Any truth to that? MR. NEARY: with rabbit's tracks now. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not dealing Order, please! Eight tenders have been received. Can the hon. gentleman tell us,in order, is it a Newfoundland company that is the lowest bidder, is it a mainland company or is it a number of mainland companies who are the lowest bidders?

And if so, would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House if the government is considering awarding the contract to a Newfoundland company in light of the depressed economy, and the number of Newfoundland subcontractors who would be involved, 1827

April 11, 1983 Tape 822 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: the supplying of materials and so forth? Would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House some answers to these questions about the order in which the tenders were received? Are they mainland companiesor Newfoundland companies? Just how did the situation work out when tenders came in? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Well, Mr. Speaker, there again, if the hon. member had sent his executive assistant or whatever he has - a couple of his fellows over there - down to the public tendering opening, he could have heard it all.

Now, I do not know in what order they have been received. I would presume, Sir, they were received in the order in which the mailman delivered them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, the tenders range from something over $20 million up to $24 million, but I would also inform the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) that this government has a local preference policy and no stone will be left unturned, Sir, and no piece of material will be used unless it is right off this old rock of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: 1828 Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker.

April 11, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 823 PK-1 The bon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, obviously the bon. gentleman is not very familiar with the tenders, I would take it, from his answer. PREMIER PECKFORD: It is all public, boy. It is all public. You could have had all this stuff. MR. NEARY: Well, I get the information here in the House by asking questions of the ministers and of the hon. gentleman. Mr. Speaker. We do not have access to these things, PREMIER PECKFORD: press conferences. tender openings? MR.

NEARY: You have representatives at my Can you not send them along to public Mr. Speaker, let me come back to the hon. gentleman. This is a very serious matter because our understanding is, Mr. Speaker, that four Mainland companies bid lower than the Newfoundland companies. MR. BAIRD: prefer? MR. NEARY: Which of those four would you Mr. Speaker,let me go on record as saying that we on this side of the House favour the Newfoundland companies.

What I want to find out from the hon. gentleman is what kind of legal implications are involved now in jumping over these four Mainland companies, who are low bidders, and getting back to the Newfoundland companies and awarding the contract to a Newfoundland company so that they could use Newfoundland labour and material and use Newfoundland subcontractors? Is it legally possible to do that? MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): The hon. Minister of Public Works and Services. 1829

April ll, 1983 Tape No. 823 PK-2 MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, that is a hypothetical question. I understand there are two Newfoundland firms - his understanding is not clear on it - and six Mainland firms. But once my department and the Department of Development apply the local preference policy and so on and it is all worked out, we will be awarding the tender then to the lowest bidder when the local preference policy is applied. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Would the hon. gentleman inform the House when he thinks he will be in a position to award the contract on the extension to Confederation Building, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, this is one of the largest tenders ever called for by Public Works or the Government of Newfoundland, and probably it will take anywhere from two to three weeks before it is all finalized. MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. RIDEOUT: Are you a substitute teacher? MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am a substitute teacher and proud to be one. I am proud to be a teacher, but I have not earned a cent, though, in about three years as a substitute teacher, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education. I want the 1630

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 823 PK-3 MR. LUSH: minister to tell the House what she has done up to this point in time, up to this very minute, toassistthe Province's teachers in getting their contract dispute with the Provincial Government resolved, 1831

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 824 NM- 1 MR. LUSH: what she has done to try to avert the impending crisis in education, the complete shutdown of our schools,which appears to be inevitable unless the minister can move more quickly and with more sympathy and with more understanding than seems to have been the case in the past few months. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have worked long with the other members of this government in planning for the provision of schooling over the next year and in budgeting for the spending on teachers' salaries of about $260 million plus, which is $25 million more than we are spending this year 1 and that is providing f0r 480 more teaching jobs in September than there are right now. That is what I have helped do for education in this Province, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not at all allude to the question that I asked.

She talks about more teachers corning in next year, which was what we had to do if we were going to have Grade XII. The question was what she has done up to this point in time, up to this very rnornent,to try to avert this crisis from taking place in education tomorrow, what she has done to trv "Dd bring both sides together, the NTA and Treasury Boar~1 Has she done anything in the last few hours to try and bring both sides together so that we can avoid having this critical situation develop tomorrow, where we are going to have a complete shutdown of our F!ducational system at this most critical point in time? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. 1832

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 824 NM - 2 MS. VERGE : Mr. Spea~er, I and officials of my department have been working with Treasury Board and with the Federation of School Boards in preparing for tomorrow, in assessing the situation in each of the schools in the Province . The school boards, the local and regional school boards,of course,directly employ teachers and directly operate schools and it is they who have the moral and leqal responsibility of determining whether or not the safety of their students will be protected and ensured.

And in cases where school boards feel that safety will not be protected because of the threatened withdrawal of supervisory services on the part of their teachers, then school boards are taking action to close their schools. Mr. Speaker, as a member of this government I have an important responsiblity to students and their families for 1833

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 825 SD - 1 MS. VERGE: ensuring their education. I also have an important responsibility as a member of the Peckford team to ensure that the same people get adequate health care, get adequate social services, have decent roads to drive over. And, Mr. Speaker, the government has a fixed amount of money which can be likened to a pie and there has been a slice of that pie earmarked for teachers' salaries next year. The dollar sign is $260 million. Is the member opposite suggesting that we make that slice larger by taking away from hospital expenditure or road upgrading or social services?

Is that what the member opposite is inferring? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, again the minister is averting the question, avoiding the question. ~o my understanding there is no talk about salaries at all in these disputes with teachers, no talk at all about salaries. The question, Mr.

Speaker, is,simply, we are led to believe that both sides are willing to negotiate, if we can believe what we are hearing, that bdth sides are willing to sit down and negotiate rather than have this situation, this complete closedown of our educational system at this most critical time,at the homestretch ,so to speak 1 before schools' closing. So has the minister done anything to try and bring both sides together in the past twenty-four hours?

Has she made any approaches to either of these sides,or both sides,to bring them together so that we can avoid this situation from developing at this most critical time in our educational system,when we are now in the h<i!mestretch towards final exams and this sort of thing, a most crit .ica,l time? Has the minister done anything? Has she made any moves? 1834

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 825 so - 2 MR . LUSB' : Has she contacted the NTA? Has she contacted her own colleagues and tried to get both sides together? MR . SPEAKER ~ussell) : The hon . Minister of Education . MS . VERGE : Mr . Speaker, it seems hard to believe that the member opposite,who is the Opposition 's Education critic ,does not realize that the issues that are outstanding between the NTA executive and their employers cost a lot of money .

They have to do with salaries , they have to do with no formal acceptance of government 's wage restraint programme for twenty­ four months, something that 10 ,000 other public servants have accepted , it has to do with pay for substitute teachers . Mr . Speaker, the employer negotiating team is ready and willing to meet at the request of the NTA \¥hen they come to accept some of the financial realities facing this Province . SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR . LUSH : MR . SPEAKER: MR . LUSH : Hear, bear. Mr . Speaker . The hon. member for Terra Nova . Mr .

Speaker, I am just wondering, with the situation \<Tith respect to supervision tomorrow, if the teachers shou~d withdraw their services, 1835

April 11,1983 Tape No. 826 ah-1 MR.LUSH: I am just wondering, so that all Newfoundland can know what is the situation with respect to providing supervisory responsibilities is the government in favour of bringing in other people, parents, for example? Has that been considered? Is the minister doing anything in this respect? Is this going to be permissible tomorrow? If parents want to come in and do the supervisory tasks that teachers have normally performed, are parents permitted to come in and perform these tasks? MR.SPEAKER (Russell ): MS VERGE: The bon. Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, this government is in favour of teachers doing their jobs properly and fully,including protecting the safety of children. Mr. Speaker, the member opposite may need to be reminded that all teachers and principals are members of a union, and the union executive, the NTA executive,have called on all of them,the principals and all the teachers,to have nothing to do with supervising children when they are getting off buses, when they are filing into schools before classes start.

These people are directed to stand around with their arms folded watching the kids mingle around, no discipline threatened, no authority figure on the part of the paid teachers. Further,the NTA executive is directing their teachers not to have anything to do with kids when they are out at recess time, lunch time when they are in the cafeteria, or when they are milling around the laboratories where there are dangerous chemicals, when they are milling around the industrial art shops with dangerous woodworking equipment 1and when they get out of classes at the end of the afternoon and have to get back on buses.

The direction from the NTA executive to the principals and the teachers is to ignore 1836

April 11,1983 Tape No . 826 ah-2 MS. VERGE: the students apart from regular classroom instructional time . Their people are suppose to show up five minutes before classes start and pack it in five minutes after they are finished in the afternoon. Now, Mr. Speaker, school boards, who are directly responsible for the operation of schools ,have no choice in that type of situation , if they cannot make any othe r arrangement by bringing in people £rom outside, but to close the schools . It is obvious that if they are to do otherwise the safety of children will be seriously impaired . MR .LUSH: Mr .Speaker .

MR .SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . member for Terra Nova . MR .LUSH: Mr . Speaker, it is a well- kno1-m fact that if the teachers of this Province are forced out of their classrooms, if they are locked out , a position \-Thich they do not 1.,ant to get themselves into , Mr . Speaker - SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR .LUSH : If teachers are locked out, if they are out for any length of time - SOME HON .MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR .LUSH : Mr . Speaker , if I we re in a government where teacher relations 111ere so bad I would be jumpy too,I would be a little bit jumpy too . 1837

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 827 MJ-1 ' MR. LUSH: It is understandable, Mr. Speaker, why they are a little bit jumpy and a little bit testy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): Order, please! MR. LUSH: They know the feelings of the teachers, Mr. Speaker, that is why they are so testy and jumpy. The question, Mr. Speaker, is as all hon. members know that if the teachers are locked out for any length of time, of course, this is going to save the government a lot of money.

As a matter of fact, I think if they are out for a month this will possibly amount to a $20 million saving for the government and help them balance their budget. Is this why the government is being so arrogant? Is this why the minister has not taken any steps to try and resolve this situation? MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, this government has budgeted for the payment of full salary, averaging $28,000 each, to the 8,000 teachers in our Province.

That money is budgeted for, and were it not for unilateral action on the part of the NTA executive, preventing, telling their members not to carry out the full duties for which they are contracted, that money would be forthcoming. I am disappointed that a member o~ this hon. House, who happens to be a member of the teaching profession, would even infer that this government is trying to save any money on the backs of the students of this Province. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 1838

April 11 , 1983 Tape No . 827 MJ - 2 MR . S. NEARY : Mr . Speaker , I would like to ask a supplementary question of the minister . Mr . Speaker, my hon . colleague wa s trying to pry some information from the minister regarding her involvement in the dispute to date .

Now the hon . gentleman did not ask the minister about preparations for tomorrow, did not ask the minister about the salaries of teachers or anything , ~Y colleague put a straight question to the minister She can sweet and smooth talk all she wants, but my colleague asked the minister, and I am going to ask the minister myself what in vol vem ent ·did the min ister have , what did the minister do, wha t steps has the mini ster taken to try to avert the crisis that will take place in education in this Province tomorrow? \~ill the min .ister tell us wh at the 18 39

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 828 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: minister has done to try tp avert - not plans for tomorrow, not teachers' salaries, not the cost of education - what did the minister do to try to avert the crisis that is about to take place? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I have worked with the full government of this ProviY)r~ - l•Ti th my colleague the President of Treasury Board (Dr.

Collins), with the Premier of the Province as part of a team developing a fair and reasonable package for the new collective agreeroent between government and the Federation of School Boards and the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. In my role as Minister of Education I was part of the collective decision-making to provide for 480 more full-time teaching positions in this Province next year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a supplementary. MR. NEARY: we still have not gotten a straight answer.

I will ask the minister what advice she gave as Minister of Education to Treasury Board with regard to tomorrow's crisis in education in this Province? What advice has the hon. minister given Treasury Board? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. 1840

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 828 NM - 2 MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, as I have said before,I have been part of the collective effort that has been exerted over a period of weeks and months to develop a fair and reasonable package for presentation to the NTA bargaining committee. 1 have also been part of the decision-making process that led to budgeting for health care, for social services, and for roads. I think that this government has done an admirable job in difficult econ@rnic times of keeping everything in perspective and allotting correct proportions to all the essential services for our people. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition Mr. Speaker, some time ago the NTA indicated that they were willing MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: They nave a cheerleader over there. Well, they have it well orchestrated today. They have to prop up the morale of the troops. PREMIER PECKFORD: When you win fortv-four seats, boy, you have to organize something. MR.

NEARY: The hon. the Premier has put the word out, "Now,boys, pound your desks as hard as you can today, keep up the morale, show the press and show the gallery that we are all united behind the Minister of Education~' MR. TOBIN: At least teachers got the right to collective barqaining now. Thev did not have it when you were in government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1841

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 828 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: Is that not wonderful, ~tr . Speaker? Here we are on the eve of one of the biggest crises we ever had in education in this Province - HR . TOBIN: ~l ot true . MR . NEARY : - if I were the hon . gentleman I would try to talk my 1.,ray out of the situation he got himself in in Burin and Gaultois . the NTA indicated - SOl<iE HON . MEMBERS : MR . SPEAKER (Russell): MR. NEARY : Mr . Speaker, some time ago 9h, oh! Order , please ! - the NTA indicated that they were willing to accept binding arbitration .

Wh at advice did the minis .ter give her colleagues on that very reasonable request from the NTA for binding arbitration? MR . SPEAKER : MS . . VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I fully concurred in the decision made not to abdicate our responsibility to the people and the taxpayers of this Province to delegate to somebody else decision -making affe cting spending of a large chunk of this Province's budget. Instead, Mr. Speaker, I supported 184 2

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 829 SD - 1 MS. VERGE: and respected the decision taken to shoulder ourselves, as the duly elected representatives of the people of the Province, the decision-making process affecting budgeting for the teachers' payroll and other associated costs for next year. And in doing so we have budgeted, as I said before, $25 million more than the previous year for a total of $250 million on teachers' salaries for next year.

That is in accordance with the wage restraint programme which was introduced for all public servants, hospital workers and teachers and which has been accepted by about 10,000 public servants. I fully concurred in that decision to reject the request for binding arbitration. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: On Friday past the NTA indicated publicly, the outgoing President of the NTA stated publicly that they were eager to return to the bargaining table and to negotiate a settlement of this dispute before the crisis occurs tomorrow. Now would the hon. minister tell the House if a contact was made from the NTA to the administration through Treasury Board or through the minister MR. TULK: MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: to coach. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: and if so what advice - She does not know. The Premier knows everything. But the Premier does not have Oh, oh. And, Mr.

Speaker, if not, if there was no direct commun~cation from the NTA to the administration , at least the NTA stated publicly tha.t they were prepared to return to the bargaining table, to the negotiating table. Now I am going to ask the hon. minister, again, what steps has she taken 1843

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 829 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: over the weekend, certainly within the last twenty-four hours, and what steps she will take for the rest of this day to try to avert the biggest crisis that we have ever had in the field of education in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MS. VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education . Mr. Speaker, the NTA President or any other representative of the NTA has not contacted government with a request for resumption of bargaining.

When and if - hopefully it will be soon­ that request is forthcoming,then the employer negotiating team is ready and willing to sit down and negotiate. Also 1 as I said before, the NTA President has not officially told government or the Federation of School Boards that the NTA is willing to accept government's wage restraint programme. All they have ever said officially and formally is that they are willing to accept the wage restraint programme for up to nineteen months, up to March 31st, 1984.

They have never said formally that they are willing to accept the full wage restraint programme the same as the 10,000 other public servants have already done. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, we have a very serious situation in this Province in education,and 1844

April 11, 1983 Tape 830 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: the minister in her role obviously must act as a mediator at this point in time. I am just wondering, Mr. Speaker, if the minister has made any contact with either her colleagues at Treasury Board or the NTA to find out what would be necessary to get both sides back to the bargaining table? In other words, has she tried to ascertain whether either side has changed its view, whether there is some possibility of compromise between now and tomorrow to avoid, Mr. Speaker, this critical situation from happening at this most important point in time?

Can the minister indicate if she has done anything or will she be doing anything in the next couple of hours? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, last Tuesday I went to the Annual Convention of The Newfoundland Teachers'· Association here at Holiday Inn. I attended their formal opening session that morning and I regret ·to say that no olive branch was handed to me on that occasion. I am here willing and certainly eager to hear ;from the NTA executive, if they choose to contact me. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplement~y, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementa.ry, the hon. Mr. Speaker, is not the hon. minister aware that it is her duty and responsibility to keep the schools open? And would the hon. minister not consider it very worthwhile to offer the olive branch to the NTA and entice them back to the bargaining table to see if there is room for compromise and to avert this major crisis, the worst crisis that we have ever had in the whole history of education in this Province? Is the hon. minister shirking her responsibility in that regard? 1845

April 11, 1983 MR . SPEAKER (Russe~l) : MS. VERGE : Tape 830 PK - 2 The hon . Minister of Education . ~rr. Speaker, many people have a responsibility to see that school children are provided with normal instructions, and those people include teachers and the NT A - t-1R . NEARY : l-1~. WARREN: It is your responsibility . You are a failure! MS . VERGE: - as the teachers' union and professional association,and the school boards, as well as the provincial government.

It is the local and regional school boards who are now dealing with the principals and teachers in each of their individual schools and seeing whether safety will be ensured for students if schools are to open tomorrow . MR . NEARY: It is obvious you are trying to force the teachers out of the classrooms . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please ! This will be the final question for the bon . member for Terra Nova. t•lR . LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am having a great degree of difficulty getting any information from the minister . I will put the question a different way.

Is the minister saying that she has not done anything in the last twenty-four hours? Is the minister saying she has not raised a finger in terms of 1846 ..

April 11, 1983 Tape 831 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: trying to get the NTA and Treasury Board back to the bargaining table again? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, as I said before, I have been part of this government's effort to develop a fair and reasonable package for the next collective agreement between the employer and the NTA. I have been part of the effort to get 480 more teaching jobs for September than there are right now, ensuring job security for the 7,000 to 8,000 teachers. And, Mr.

Speaker, 1 and the other members of this government are standing by ready and willing to talk to the NTA bargaining committee when they come to realize the serious financial difficulties faced by this Province and the need for this government to maintain spending for hospital services, for social services, roads and all the other services that are just as essential for the families of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: has expired, Hear, hear! Order, please! The time for Question Period PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), I w~sh to table Speci~l Warrants for the Departmenmof Finance, Social Services, Health, Labour and Manpower and Justice. And Finance has to do with unemployment insurance contributions for provincial government employees; Social Services has to do with training and rehabilitation, allowances and assistance and salaries, social assistance; 1847

A'pril ll , 1983 Tape No . 831 EC PREt-tiER PECKPORD : under Health ,for the Newfoundland Medicare Commission , an increased volume of billings; for Labour and Manpower , for the health study down in Labrador West, the dust study ; and for Justice, relevant to student aid . so as required under the Financial Admini stration Act of 1973 , I hereby tabl e the Special Warr ants just de scribed by me , Mr . Speaker . ~1R . MARS!iALL : PREMIER PECKFORD : An excellent speech . That is a good speech? Nould I not make a good Minister of Fi nan ce? SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear , hear!

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR \'IHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR . YOUNG : MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Public Work s and Services . MR . YOUNG : Mr . Speaker . The hon . the t-1inister of Mr . Speaker, I would like to table the answer to a question on the Order Paper of March 25, 1983 , asked by the hon . the member for Eagle River {Mr . Hiscock) . It was a fooli sh question again, 1848 2

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 832 MJ - 1 MR. H. YOUNG: was itall done by public tendering and stuff like that. I would not even repeat it. MR. NEARY: Telephones or what? MR. YOUNG: table that. Not telephones. I would like to PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. W. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 192 petitioners in the district of Bellevue. This petition, Mr. Speaker, comes from the residents of the Town of Hillview which is just off the TCH.

You can easily see most of Hillview as you drive along the TCH and even though, Mr. Speaker, this town is,as I said,only several hundred yardsoffthe TCH ,and even though there is only about a mile and a half, two miles which will take in every inch of road in the town, the only bit of pavement that these people see is when they arrive on the federal government road,the Trans-Canada Highway. This petition, Mr.

Speaker, and I will read the Prayer, says: "We the undersigned, residents of Hillview ,in the provincial district of Bellevue,do respectfully submit a petition to our Provincial government requesting that upgrading and paving of the community's roads be carried out during the Summer of 1983, the construction season of 1983. We believe the authorities will recognize our request as being one long overdue and that every effort will be made for the realization of the same." Now, Mr. Speaker, this is not the first time that I have stood here in this hon.

House as the member for the district of Bellevue and had occasion to present a petition on behalf of these very 1849

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 832 MJ - 2 MR . W. CALLAN : same people, requesting improved and paved roads . They have done it time a.nd time again . Mr . Speaker, actually,if one looked back over the last couple of years in particular in this bon . Bouse, one cannot help but notice that Presenting Petitions in this hon. House is quickly becoming a thi.ng of the past . And I guess the reason for it is obvious, that even though these people,for example,and there is a fair amount of organization and footwork involved in going from house to house and home to home with a petition to get these signatures the reason, Mr .

Speaker, I believe that it is becoming a thing of the past, presenting petitions, or the circulation a.nd then the presenting of petitions ,is because in far more cases than not the petition has ended up in the appropriate minister 's office but has never been reacted to in a positive manner. I can think, 1850

April 11,1983 Tape No. 833 ah-1 MR.CALLAN: going back to 1975 when petitions were the order of the day, Mr. Speaker, of thousands of names attached to petitions against the increase in electricity and so on and so on over the years 1 but nothing was ever done by government, nothing was ever done to reduce the cost of electricity I am afraid, Mr. Speaker.

But I hope that the opposite is true, I hope that this petition presented at this opportune time by the people from Hillview,because we have not yet finished the Department of Transportaion estimates -we were supposed to meet this morning but we could not because the minister was unavoidably absent and so the meeting was cancelled. Mr.

Speaker, I hope that when the minister stands in his place to respond to this petition he will stand and say, yes, I am very pleased to say that Cabinet and the officials in the Department of Transportation have recognized this stretch of road through Hillview for a number of years now as being one of the roads in the Province that needs and deserves to be paved because of the taxpayers there and so on. And I hope that the minister will tell us when he stands to respond to and support the petition that there is an allocation in this year's transportation budget to spend $500,000 in the district of Bellevue.

And I hope ,Mr.Speaker, tha~ all the money in his department will not go to Bonavista South and out on Ramdon Island and so on,which is where a lot of it has been going,especially over the past several years, recent years. And,of course,the people in Hillview and the people who live in close proximity to these other districts I just mentioned, go down there for Sunday afternoon drives, they go down there to visit their 1851

.:.& April 11,1983 Tape No. 833 ah -2 MR .CALLAN: friends and relatives and they know that places have paved roads down there where the population is far less than their population , and the number of tax dollars are far less than the number of tax dollars that are paid in by people like the people who live in the town of Hillview . MR .MORG AN : They vote for me in every election and I look after them . MR .CALLAN: M.r. Speaker , I hope that the public addres s syste m in this House of Assemb ly has picked up the comment s just made by the Mi ni st er of Fisheries (Mr .Morgan) , because copies of the transcript will be taken 1852

April 11, 1983 Tape 834 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: off of what has been said during the past four minutes and what will be said in the next five. They will be mailed out to each individual whose signature appears here and I hope that the minister, I hope that his words that the reason we give pavement, the reason this government gives pavement is because of the way people vote, I hope that that will be recorded so that when it does go out - MR. MORGAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. CALLAN: up I support the petition. MR. SPEAKER: a point of order. Order, please! Order, please! - Mr.

Speaker, since my time is Order, please! The hon. Minister of Fisheries, MR. MORGAN: On a point of order, I want to clarifv - maybe you can rule it a point of clarification~ I did not say that people should be getting services based on the way they vote, I said I, as one member of the House, make sure I can get all the things and services I can for people who vote for me in every election. I work between elections to get things done for them, services and paving of roads and water and sewer services. And surely the hon. gentleman is not interpreting that as government policy - MR.

CALLAN: At the expense of other s~ttlements. MR. MORGAN: - that you have to vote a certain way to get services. 1853

April 11, 1983 Tape 834 NM- 2 MR. MORGAN: The hon. gentleman has a real problem getting services. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : You are on the record. Order, please! The hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan} rose on a point of order which really was a point of clarification, not a point of order at all. The time for the hon. member for Bellevue has expired. The hon. Leader of the Opposition rises to speak to that petition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thought the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) was going to respond. If he is, I will gladly take my seat. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to support the prayer of the petition. It is not the first time that my hon. colleague has brought a petition into this hon. House from the people of Hillview who seem to be discriminated against by this administration. This same administration, Mr. Speaker, is squandering all kinds of taxpayer money on paving country lanes, and driveways, to Summer cottages, and paving parking lots in front of lounges, Mr. Speaker, and this same administration will not grant a legitimate request - MR. DAWE: Name the place? MR. NEARY: Yes,I could if I wanted to, Mr.

SPeaker, but I am not goinq to at this moment. MR. TOBIN: Tell us where they all are. 1854

April 11, 1983 Tape 834 NM - 3 MR . NEARY: Well 1 the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) can answer the bon . gentleman and tell him vthere all the driveways have been paved and roads paved to Summer cabins and country lanes. The Minister of Transporta ·tion is an expert on that . And, Mr . Speaker , we heard all kinds of condemnation of the Minister of Transportation { Z.1r. Dawe) recently by two mayors, condemn inq the hon . gentleman for pork barrelling in his own district . MR . MARSHALL : On a point of order , Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY : that now , z.ir. Spe~~er . MR .

SPEAKER : Order, please~ Order, please! But I am not qoing to get into Order, please! The hon . President of the Council on a point of order . MR . MARSHALL : The bon . gentleman is speakin g to a petition presented by the bon . me .mber for Bellevue (Mr . Callan) .

I refer Your Honour to Standing Order 92, "Every member offering a petition to the Rouse shall confine himself to the statement of ~he parties from whom it comes, the number of signatures attached to it and the material allegations it contains ." And again Standing Order 97, "There shall be no debate on a petition, unless the House has it under consideration ." The hon . gentleman is not 1855

- April ll, 1983 Tape 835 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: speak ing to the petition and he is also, Mr. Speaker, entering into debate, so he is out of order on both grounds. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Maybe the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) would like to confine his remarks to the prayer of the petition. MR. NEARY: \</ell, it looks like, since we resumed this session, Mr. Speaker, we are going to have a crack­ down.

We heard that that crackdown was going to take place at the beginning of the session, but it is only now because the administration are hurting, because the administration cannot stand criticism, because the administration are under tremendous pressure and are being criticized for their lack of action on the economy and so forth that they are now going to resort to raising points of order. The crackdown has started that was supposed to have started at the beginning of the session last month. Well, Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition so ably presented by my colleague, the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan). These people down there feel that they are being discriminated against· And the hon. gentleman can raise all the points of order he wants. We have all kinds of opportunity in this House to make our point and we will be doing it, and the hon. gentleman will have to stay here in his seat. He will have to study Beauchesne upside down and inside out in order to muzzle the Opposition, because he is not going to do it. He can try all he wants, Mr, Speaker. Getting back to the petition, Mr.

Speaker, the government can find ways and means to pave parking lots in front of lounges, country lanes, driveways,and pave roads to Summer cottages, 1856

April 11, 1983 Tape 835 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: and the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) can manipulate the money that was allocated last year and this year for reconstruction and upgrading and paving of roads and put it all in his own district, but there are people who are watching these things, Mr. Speaker. And I hope that the bon. gentleman will be able to find a few dollars to look after these good people of Hillview. I believe this is the third petition, is it not? lffi. CALLAN: At least three. MR. NEARY: At least three petitions have been presented by my colleague.

So far the request seems to have fallen on deaf ears. But by now they must be getting some kind of a guilt complex, a guilty conscience, Mr. Speaker, so let us hope that the minister will stop his pork barrelling, stop trying to feather his own nest and do something for people in other parts of the Province. MR. CALLAN: MR. DAWE: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Transportation. MR. DAWE: They are taxpayers too. Mr. Speaker. The bon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, like most of the people in the Province, I will ignore the comments of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary).

They continue to fall on deaf ears not only on this side of the House but also, I might add, in his own district which lies adjacent to my particular riding. However, I would like to speak with reference to the petition. I have no hesitation indeed in supporting the prayer of the petition, as I am sure that all hon. members in this House would support that particular petition and similar petitions that have been 1857

April 11, 1983 Tape 835 MR. DAWE: presented in this House and similar concerns, Mr. Speaker, that have been presented, 1858 EC - 3

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 836 so - 1 MR. DAWE: just concerns about the conditions of roads in all parts of this Province, not only on the Island but in Labrador as well. There is a crying need for improved transportation systems in this Province. It is a very vast Province with limited financial resources.

We have had over the past decade or so ,some financial arrangements through the Department of DREE which has assisted this Province in developing some major secondary roads and enabled it, by having some federal funding into those roads, to put additional expenditures into local roads and other provincial highways.

Unfortunately 1 that support from the federal government as in other aspects of financial support, as we heard earlier today in the Ministerial Statement given by the Premier,as it relates to EPF funding and other areas, the federal government have shirked their responsibilities in providing the necessary funding for this Province not only in the area of post secondary education and health care but also in the area of highroad construction and transportation requirements. Mr.

Speaker, we are very conscious of the needs for the paving of roads that are not already paved in this Province,some thousands of miles of them. We are also very cognizant of the responsibility to maintain existing paved roads and to, in fact, build some very necessary road links in this Province not only on the Island but,as well , in Labrador. And we are very, very conscious of it. We are very concerned that the necessary financial commitment from the federal government has not been forthcoming. We are also very concerned that the federal government seems obsessed with the idea of making 1859

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 836 SD - 2 MR . DAWE: sure that Ne\<lfoundland and Labrador never reaches any kind of economic security so it can address the problems on its own . Mr . Speaker, we are ve ry concerned and we will continue to be concerned and continue to address the needs .with the limited financial resources that we have,based on a priority system that has been set up over the years that addresses the requirements based on safety, on t.ransportation figure s, on traffic volumes and other engineering data that is made available to us .

And it is a very, very difficult deci sion when the time comes to expend the dollars that ,.,e have available . It is a decision that this government and my department do not take li ghtly,and we l'lill continue to addre ss the legitimate concerns of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians in the area of transportation in all parts of the Province . SOME HOK . MEMBERS : Hear, hear . ORDERS OF THE DAY MR . MARSHAL .L: Committee of Supply . On motion , th .at the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply , Mr . Speaker left the Chair . 1860

April 11, 1983 Tape 837 PK - 1 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! Head I. The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, this is the Committee of the Whole. Perhaps for the benefit of the committee , Mr. Chairman, it might be beneficial if you advise the amount of hours remaining. Approximately six, is it? MR. CHAIRMAN: Approximately six hours and fifteen minutes. MR. MARSHALL: Well, Mr.

Chairman, this heading of expenditure is Consolidated Fund Services, and it relates to the provision of money to provide for interest mainly on the public debt and retirement of the public debt. Most of the elements in this heading are not to be voted upon by the House because they are statutqry in.nature and by this we mean that - and this is very important and very relevant, it means that this has a first and prior charge really on all of the revenues of the Province in each year.

So it does not depend upon a vote every year as to whether or not it is going to be paid, it is an undertaking as a part of the condition of the borrowing itself. The major elements in this heading are not voted on. The only one that is voted on is the one I think, Mr. Chairman, that you will call eventually ,which is the one with respect to ex gratia payments, that I will be prepared to answer any questions on when it is called. But, Mr. Chairman, Head I, the public debt, I know that the hon. gentleman is going to make certain observations with respect to the public debt, which is very fitting of course.

They have been made from time to time. They have been made by myself, made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), made by many peo?le with respect to the size of the public debt. If members would like to refer 1861

April 11, 1983 Tape 837 PK - 2 MR . HARSH ALL : to the estL~ates on page 4 it shows the Public Sector Debt and gives a resume of the debt from 1979 to 1983 . It stood at $2 .5 mi ll ion - or $2 .5 billion , we wis h it were $2 .5 million , but $2 .5 billion in 1979, and with the borro wings that will be incurred this year, Mr . Chairman, as the Minister of Fi nance (Dr . Collins) has indicated in the Budget Speech , it will total $3 .5 billion . No w this is a matter , obviously, o£ great concer n to the gover nmen t of this Province ,as it would be 1862

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 838 MJ - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: to any government, the size of the public debt. The reason for the size of the public debt, Mr. Chainrem, quite frankly, is that we have not been able to generate in this Province enough revenues to be able to meet the expenditures to the degree that we would like.

The revenues from the general public, and I think that this has to be borne in mind by everybody dealing with the government and making demands on the government, whether it be through health services, whether it be through teachers, whether it be through the public service or from whatever source, the revenue of this Province has to come from two places: It has to come either from taxation of the citizens of the Province or it has to come from our resources. Now, we all know and the government fully concedes,that the taxation levels in this Province are higher than the government would like them to be.

It is completely and absolutely unavoidable, there is no further room for taxation. As a matter of fact,it is the aim and the objective of this government and certainly its hope 1 over a period of time to be able to alleviate or reduce that particular debt. The only other area, Mr. Chairman, apart from taxation,where you are going to get your money is from the resources, the resources of the province concerned. And, Mr.

Chainrem, it is there and it is only there that we have any hope of being able to address the magnitude of the public debt, to reduce the amount that we have to expend yearly,on interest each year, and thereby be able to have more funds avai.lable at the same time to meet the growing demands that are upon government. To get a picture, Mr. Chairman, of the effect of the debt I refer hon. members to Page 7, 1863

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 838 MJ - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: exhibit 7, showing where the money goes and you will see that in the ensuing fiscal year it is estimated that 16.3 per cent of the revenues will go towards debt charges and other financial expenses under this particular heading. And as you see, I think it is very picturesquely depicted here in the schedule, there is a circle here, it is a pieas it were and it shows a segment of the pie.

The aim of the game of any government or any prudent administration is to get that segment which shows debt charges and other financial expenses smaller and thereby you \'IOuld have a greater proportionate amount to be able to use for the purpose of provision for ordinary services. But we have not been able to do that to date, Mr. Chairman, because of,as I say, the problems that we have had and we have met in trying to get a just return from the resources of this Province and the resources that we brought into Confederation with us. And hence, Mr.

Chairman, it =res back to square one again 1 to gaining a proper revenue from our maior industry, the fishery, hut most importantlv what we are not receiving but 1ve should be receiving from our hydro power,where Quebec gets $600 million to $700 million a year and we get a paltry approximately $10 million a year, and with respect to the offshore. 1864

April 11, 1983 Tape 839 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: I mean, .if we were dealt with on a reasonable, rational basis in those areas, we would be able to see the light of day where we would at last be able to wrestle with the problems, the financial problems under which this government labours. So, Mr.Chairman, that is one observation I would make.

The other observation is that when hon. gentlemen there opposite get up and talk about the public debt, as we indicated in the brief exchange before we adjourned on the last Tuesday we were sitting, that a large part of this public debt has been thrust upon us and remains a legacy- even though, thank God, it is some ten or twelve years since they were in power but it remains a legacy which the previous Liberal administration cast upon this Province like a rope around its neck.

What they did, Mr.Chairman, was they had borrowed the then astronomical amount,when this party assumed government in 1971 1 of approximately $1 billion. Interest has ascended on that over the years, so a large part of this public debt is attributable to their administration.

But it is not my purpose to dwell on that; what it is my purpose to dwell on and the point that I would like to make is that the only way in which we are going to be able to get out from under the financial problems with which this Province is faced is to get a more reasonable return from the resources of our Province and the resources which we brought into Confederation. So these are the openin g remarks, Mr. Chairman. I will be happy to answer any questions that hon. gentlemen may wish to raise with 1865

April 11 , 1983 Tape 839 EC - 2 l.ffi . MARSHALL: respect to this matter . The fact that most of the items are not voted upon, that is one issue, but we do not mL~d, of course, and we would be only too happy to respond to any questions under the subheads even though becau .se of statutory reasons they are not to be voted upon . !-1R . NEARY : !-1r. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon . the Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: Mr. Chairman, let me first start out by saying, oh, hmo~ the hon . gentleman has changed his tune in recent years . Only a few years ago \oJe were given a lecture in this hon .

House by the President of the Council, the Government House Leader (Mr . Marshall) on the state of the public debt at that time, \vhich was running around $1. 7 billion, I believe, at that time, and the hon . gentleman thoug ht tha t was horrendous , thought we were going under, did not think we would see the light of day, separated himself from the admini stration, refused to sit 1866

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 840 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: in the Cabinet, resigned from the Cabinet so that he could assert his independence in this House to talk about the public debt which was a little more than $1.5 billion around that time, but the hon. gentleman was concerned in this House. Now the public debt has gone to $3.5 billion,Mr.

Chairman, and the bon. gentleman who introduced the Consolidated Fund Services portion of the budget ,Item l did not express any concern at all, just got up and nrushed it off, got a few little political jabs in, did not give the House very much information on how we are going to service that debt.And the bon. gentleman told us, Mr. Chairman, that there were two sources of revenue, the Province had two sources of revenue. Hansard will confirm what I am saying, that is what the bon. gentleman said. My hon. colleague came into the House right at the time when the Minister without ~ortfolio (Mr.

Marshall), who just introduced these estimates,told the House there a few moments ago, uS my hon. friend came in the doorway, that there are two sources of revenue- taxation,he said, and our own resources, two forms of revenue. The hon. gentleman left out the most important source of revenue. There are three sources of revenue,Mr. Chairman, but the bon. gentleman deliberately left out the most important source of revenue to this Province, namely: the Government of Canada.

The Government of Canada contributes almost half of the revenue of this Administration,of this Government. 47.8 per cent of the revenue taken in by the Provincial Government here comes from the Government of Canada. Now,that is rather trivial and insignificant. 1867

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 841 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman did not think that was worth mentioning,I suppose, $900 million from the Government of Canada, that is just loose change in your pocket. The hon. member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) carries that around in his wallet. Almost $1 billion out of a $2 billion budget, almost half of it comes from the Government of Canada MR. WOODROW: We are still Canadians. MR. NEARY: And the hon. gentleman says we are Canadians, Well you would never say ,Mr. Chairman, to listen to some of the remarks that come from members there opposite that they were Canadians MR.

SH'!HS: MR. NEARY: Hon. gentleman there opposite. Hon. gentleman there opposite that they were Canadians.If you listen to the statements, anti-Canadian, being made daily both inside and outside this · hon. House, you would never say they were Canadians. I have yet to hear the gentleman who just introduced this part of the budget stand in this House and say ' I am a proud Canadian'. I have never heard him say it and probably never will. Mr.

Chairman,it is very, very important then, it is very important ,if half our revenue is coming from the Government of Canada,that we maintain good relations with the Government of Canada. It is very important that we tap every source of revenue that we can lay our hands on in Ottawa. But we are not doing that,Mr. Chairman. Instead of that,Federal/Provincial relations are practically non-existent, caput, they do not exist-And that is very unfortunate indeed, because I think it is having a very strong bearing, a very large bearing on other sources of 1868

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 841 JV - 2 MR . NEARY : revenue that co uld be tapped in Ottawa . I submit that millions of dollars are bein g left on the Ottawa table ev ery year that should come to this Pro vince . Now , Mr . Chairman , as far as our own taxation is concerned let me say this , that I do not think that we c an increase taxes in thi s Province anymore . I think we have reached the saturation point , I think that we have reached the point ,as my hon . academic friend says , the point of diminishing returns . 1869

April 11,1983 Tape No. 842 ah-1 MR.NEARY: We are pricing ourselves out of business as far as taxation in this Province is concerned. But I would not be at all surprised, Mr. Chairman, with the direction of this <v1ministration,that before this year is over and before too much longer, the administration will be back looking for more revenue in the form of provincial taxation. There is no way that we can meet a ~7.5 million deficit in current account with the present state of the Newfoundland economy ,brought about mainly through the mismanagement of this administration. So we have to forget increasing taxes.

We just had a sneak tax put on tobacco products in this Province ,something that we were not told about when the Budget was brought down a few weeks ago. They sneaked that one in. They did not have the courage to tell the House about it and have come in for a lot of criticism as a result of sneaking t n_., ~. '-:n '' •r:r:0 ·:.~ ,, .'.n and as a result of their contempt in this regard for this House. So, Mr. Chairman, we have to forget increasing taxes in this Province in future. People cannot stand it. They cannot stand any more increases in taxes.

This administration have not taken any steps to slow down the growth in the public service, As " matter of fact,they are doing anything but. They are putting an extension on Confederation Building. They are going to build another new House of Assembly, Mr. Chairman. Host provinces of Canada are operating out of their original legislature. This is the second House of Assembly that we have had in Newfoundland since Confederation. Now the administration tell us that their number one priority is to build another House of Assembly, the third one since Confederation.

Most provinces and most places in the world, most states in the Unites States are still operating out of their original legislatures,except Newfoundland. And this 1870

April 11,1983 Tape No. 842 ah-2 MR.NEARY: House we are in now,by the way1would put,most ~egislatures in Canada to shame but it is not good enough for the administration, it is not good enough for them. The emperor wants to have his flag flying over an extension to Confederation Building so that they can have nice comfortable offices and continue to build the public service so that they can live in the laps 1 B 71

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 843 SD - l MR. NEARY: of luxury - air conditioning, wall to wall carpeting - as the hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) is used to, up to your knees in carpet, Mr. Chairman, and a House of Assembly,we are told,down in the lobby of Confederation Building. Now that is priorities for you, Mr. Chairman. And they are carrying out this extension, this unnecessary work at a time when they are closing hospital beds, laying off hospital workers, making the people who are unemployed, forced on welfare, suffer, cutting student allowances. That is how concerned they are, Mr.

Chairman, about the welfare of the people of this Province and about the public debt. MR. WARREN: Closing hospitals. MR. NEARY: Northwest River - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: open for? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Closing down hospitals in What are we going to keep it open for? Pardon? What are we going to keep it open for? What are you going to keep it Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Chairman, if the hon. gentleman has not gotten the message by now he should go down toNorthWest River and find out.

The hon. gentleman has not had the courage to go and face the people of NorthWestRiver, he sent down his deputy, his assistant deputy down to take the flack. Mr. Chairman, I am not going to be sidetracked by hon. members. Apart from not being able to increase taxation any more in this Province -as a matter of fact, taxes should be reduced. Hon. members should have discovered last year that the tax increases 1B72

AprH 11 , 1983 Tape No . 843 SD - 2 MR . NEARY: they brought in were counter- productive, the tax increases were counter-productive, that they did not get the anticipated revenue that they had forecasted and that we ended up \llith a deficit in current account of $60 million and we are going to have a deficit this year of $28 million ,in round figures . Two years in a row a substantial deficit in current account, Mr . Chairman, and th~t is devastating . That means the Province is borrowing money to pay off money that they al :ready borrowed . And anybody with an ounce of intelligence knows what that means . Mr.

Chairman, following t.he bringing down of the budget we had a statement from a very noted professor over at Memorial University, a very renowned professor, 1873

April 11, 1983 Tape 844 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: a professor of international business, a gentleman who was educated in some of the most ancient universities in the world. MR . HOUSE : Oh ,boy! MR. BAIRD: PerhaPs he is ~nti~uated. MR. YOUNG: John C. Doyle. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, Mr. John C. Doyle is an angel compared to that hon. gentleman. An angel! An angel! The hon. gentleman thinks he is crafty. If the hon. gentleman makes any more remarks like he made when he ran out of the House today he better be prepared for the eonsequences. MR. WARREN: That is right. MR.

NEARY: The hon. gentleman now is not as clean as he tries to pretend he is. MR. WARREN: That is right! MR. NEARY: If the hon. gentleman now wants to talk about telephones and talk about labour on people's houses, let him put up and let him man-fashion get up and put the evidence on the table of this House and not make his little snide remarks or we will deal with the hon. gentleman. MR. CARTER: Tell us about John Doyle. Tell us all about the hon. gentleman. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this professor accused the administration of mismanaging the resources of this Province.

And I do not think that a truer statement has ever been made. And he challenged the Premier to debate his statement on television. MR. WARREN: Are you going to do it? MR. NEARY: And the Premier said in this House he would accept the challenge. MR. BAIRD: Where is he from? MR. NEARY: But has he accepted the challenge, Mr. Chairman? 1874

April 11 , 1983 Tape 844 PK - 2 AN BON . MEMBER : No . MR . NEARY: The Premier has not accepted the cha llenge . First of all,the Premier has not yet to ld us how he is going to deal with Mobil Oil . You remember , he threatened t-1obil , said we will deal with t-!obil Oil. We have a secret weapon up our sleeve to deal with Mobil Oil . And now they admit that they cannot deal with lolobi l Oil. They had no secret weapon. They were bluffing , and their bluff was called . Now they are humiliated and embarrassed , 11-lr . Chairman .

No w the Premier has said, yes, I will accept the invi tation from the professor to debate whether or not we mismanaged the re sourc es of thi s Province , but we have not seen any date set for the debate . Does the Pre mier still intend to debate these matters with this profes sor, or has he chicl<ened out? Does he lack the courage? Does he not have the intestinal fortitude? Does he not have the goods that he cannot back it up , that his admi nistration did indeed mis ­ man .age the resources of this Province? MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please ! 1875

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 845 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. the member's time has elapsed. MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: I will come back later, Mr. Chairman. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, I just listened to some of the words that the Leader of the Opposition had to sav (Mr. Neary) about some of these expenditures of money and so on, and I have listened to the Leader of the Opposition now the last number of days as it relates to the waste of money on the extension to the Confederation Building and so on.

Now, you know, it is incredible and I have had people come up to me over the last number of days, Mr. Chairman, and say to me, 'Is the Leader of the Opposition serious or does he understand that there is a difference between capital account and current account?' What we are talking about here is a capital account expenditure. And the reason why we are making it, Mr. Chairman, is to save mone y .

Because in an analysis that was done by the Department of Public Works and Services 1 if we have to renew all these lease agreements with all the people from whom we are now renting space -·knowing that the market has gone up from eight or ten or twelve dollars per square foot to fifteen or twenty or twenty-five dollars per square foot 1we would have to spend huge sums of money to retain all of this space from all the various people who own these buildings. So 1·.1hat we did then, Mr.

Chairman, in light of that, knowing that we had some lead time for those leases to be up,we examined to see whether it was wise now to renew all of that square footage at much higher rates per square foot, and we got a market analyst to tell us what the square footage would be,or would it be better to build a buildini'T, borrow the money and the repayment

schedule 1876

April 11 , 1983 Tape No . 845 MJ - 2 PRF-~ER PECKFORD : on tha t money would be less than the payment

schedule on th e re nt of all that space . And what it shcMed was , Mr . Chairman , that we would be money in over about twenty years if we built an exten sion to Confederation Building : We would own the building , w e would have an investment and we would have no more payments after t\- 1ent y year s, and those paym ents would no t be greater than the amoun t we would have to pay for lea sed premises . So what we are doing for the taxpayer of Ne wf oundland and Labrador , Mr . Chairman , is saving the people money .

Now , the other alternative is not to build to an extension to Confederation Building and not to rene w the leases so we would have hundreds of public employees on our hands which we lay off . Th at is the only other way out of it that I can see out of it , Mr . Chairma n. We either keep these pe ople on becau se they are prefo rm ing a valua ble fu nction in the public service,in the various departm en ts or we do not . No w, if we are going to keep them on , I can only say to the Leader of the Opposition {Mr .

Neary) that if he is opposed to the Confederatio n Building Comp lex going ahea ? - he ha s got two things : If he is opposed to it ,that means that he wants the government to spend more money to provide accommodation to these employees than we now have to s~ by building a complex . So he wants us to wa ste money . 1877

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 846 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: He either wants us to waste money, more than we would have to spend, or to lay off a lot of public employees. It is one or the other. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has taken a very firm position and I can only put down his motivation as being that he either wants us to waste money or to lay off a lot of public employees. Because, Mr. Chairman, we can conclusively prove that by building the Confederation Complex we are going to save money and keep the people employed. Both! That is what we are going to do.

It is a measure to save money for the taxpayers of this Province. Now I cannot for the life of me see how the Leader of the Opposition, the leader of a political party in this Province, can stand ·up and oppose government saving money on behalf of the taxpayers. Now he either does not want to save money, or he wants to lay off a lot of public employees. No~ that is the long and short of it, Mr. Chairman.

So the Leader of the Opposition can rant and roar all he likes, and it has nothing to do with current account at all, we are borrowing the money as part of our capital account,because the repayment on that money will be less than the money we would have to pay out for the leasing arranqerrents 1ve would have to make after the five years are now up,when we would have to renew them. So I think, Mr. Chairman, it is a tremendous - and we have an investment then. We own the building, so we have an investement. So, Mr. Chairman, you know, in talking about spending money the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) is out to lunch, out in left field in criticizing the extension to this complex,Because we can save money,and surely one of the objectives of government must fue to save money. So I repeat, 1878

April 11, 1983 Tape No . 846 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) either wants us to continue to waste money and that is \>'hy he is against the extensi on to Confederation Building Comple~ or if he does not want us to waste money and he is still against the extension, he must want us to lay of f hundreds and hundreds of public employees . Because that is the only logical conclusion that I can draw from anybody who could be opposed to the extension of the Confederation Building Complex . lo1R . CHAIRMAN (Ayh1ard) : The hon . Leader of the Opposition . M.R .

NEARY : The fact of the matter is, Mr . Chairman, that you have to take advantage of the situation at the time and everybody in thi s Province kn ow s at the present time that rents are dirt cheap. The l-1inister of Public Works (Mr . Young) - MR . YOUNG: wne re ? Where? Where are they? Where are they? IYhere are they dirt cheap? MR . NEARY : Mr . Speaker , the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) opened a tender ca ll 1879

April 11, 1983 Tape 847 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: last week and the cost per square foot on that particular tender ranged from $7.50 up to $18 a square foot - bargain basement. This is what government now can rent office space for. But no, Mr. Chairman, they do not take advantage of that situation. And the fact of the matter is that interest rates are fairly high, so it is going to cost a fair amount of interest on the money that will be borrowed to amortize the loan to extend Confederation Building. PREMIER PECKFORD; MR. NE .~RY; It is still cheaper.

The hon. gentleman has not produced any documentation to show the House that it is cheaper. Put the documentation on the table of the House, Mr, Chairman, so we can ex~ine it. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. gentleman wereinterested in saving money, keeping hospital beds open and keeping public servants on the payroll, he would cancel that twenty year lease he gave to his buddy for a military museum down in the Murray Premises. AN BON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: now a twenty year lease. MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: a twenty year lease. MR. NEARY: MR. WALSH: MR. NEARY: Twenty years!

Twenty years. They just signed That is right. No tenders. That is right, no tenders, You talk about political patronage! You cannot talk about it. \'lell, I can talk about it and I am going to talk about it. A twenty year lease for office space that was unnecessary in the first place - MR. WARREN: And it is still unoccupied. 1880

April ~1, 1983 Tape 847 EC -2 MR. NEARY: -that is still unoccupied, Mr. Chairman, still unoccupied. Because they wanted to move the military museum of£ the l~th Floor of this building to make a conference room so that the Premier could hold press conferences and get his picture in the paper. He will not a.llm-1 the Opposition to use the conference room. The Opposition are not allowed to use it. The minister without portfolio can use it. Anybody in the Province can use it except the Leader of the Opposition. He '-lill not allow the Leader of the Opposition to use the Conference Room.

But I am not complaining about that, Mr. Chairman. I can manage to get my message across without using th·e conference Room. But the point that I am making, Mr. Chairman, is this, that if the hon. gentleman is sincere, if he wants to save money to keep public servants employed and he wants to save money for the taxpayer, let him cut out the extravagance and waste, ~et him give up his apartment over in Tiffany Place, let him give that up. 1881

April 11,1983 Tape No. 848 ah-1 MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we have the most greedy Premier in our whole history. We have had twenty-two Prime Ministers or Premiers in this Province and we have the most greedy Premier in the whole history. Out of the twenty-two we presently have the most greedy of all Premiers in this Province.

So let us hear no more about the Opposition wants to do away with this, the Opposition wants to force the government to lay off public servants, let us hear no more of that silly nonsense. !IR.TOBIN: You are against the jobs 1 all the jobs that are going to be created in building that extension. You are against that. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I believe this would be the time for government to call tenders for rental of office space downtown ,because they can get it at bargain basement prices. MR. HODDER: want it. MR.NEARY: For any period of time they Yes, for any period. There are more vacant buildings around St.

John's, office buildings,than in our whole history. MR. HODDER: New York and Paris. MR.NEARY: We can have the London, The bon. gentleman just opened a tender last week and got the shock of his life, ranging from $7.50 up to $18.00. MR.YOUNG: Storage space.You do not put people in stor~ne snace. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the government should test it, put it to the test, call public tenders for the required office space and see what the going price is today, see what bargains they can get today. !1R.HODDER: Where is Joey's fountain? It is all ripped out down there, you know. 1882

April 11 ,1983 Tape No . 848 ah-2 MR . NEARY : Oh ,I know the fountain is gone , and they have been taking down the trees down there . That is saving taxpayer money . But an~~ay, ~tr . Chairman , I was hoping that while the hon . the Premier was on his feet he would tell us about the challenge of Profe ssor Montgomery,who cha llenged the hon . gentl eman to a deba te , to debate his mi smanagement of the res our ces of this Province . And the hon . the Premier said in this House that he would accept the challenge . Could he now tell us when the debate is going to take pla ce? Has the time been reserved , Mr .

Chairman, on television and radio for the debate? I was hoping the hon . gentleman 1883

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 849 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: would deal with that matter, because there is no doubt about it,Mr. Chairman, that this Administration have grossly mismanaged the resources of this Province MR. HODDER: I remember John Crosbie saying that we were bankrupt in 1968. MR. NEARY: That is right. $700 million and we were bankrupt, now it is$3.5 billion and still climbing, no end in sight. The people who set our credit rating Moody9,Standard and Poor, are going up the wall, going out of their mind~ got to have eyes in the back of their heads to try and keep the administration straight.

They can no longer use the argument while you are a Province of Canada, Canada is not going to let you go bankrupt. That used to be the argument. They cannot use the argument now about offshore oil, they threw that away.when the Premier threw the matter before the Newfoundland Appeals Court, he threw away whatever chances we had to get the large share of that offshore treasure, ~he hon. gentleman threw that away and then the hon. House Leader{Mr. Marshall) has the face to get up and tell us about how there are only two sources of revenue, taxation and our own resources. Mr.

Chairman, just turn back the hands of time for a moment, go back to January 8th, 1972, just turn back the clock eleven years and see what this Administrationl~ve done with our resources. They have not done anything. l>-1R. WARKEN: They destroyed it. MR. NEARY: They destroyed it is right. We had a good fishery in this Province, we had an excellent lBB4

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 849 JV - 2 MR . NEARY : fishery .When the Administration took over Mr . Chairman, we had a good fishery in this Province,both inshore and offshore . Is that the situation today? Mr .

Chairman,this administration have just about every group in this Province turned off , they have every group in this Province now against them , they have the fishplant workers, they have the fishermen , they have the teachers, they have the nurses , they have about two -thirds of the public service, they have the Newfoundland Medical Association , they hav e sick people , they have welfare rec ipients, they have construction workers, they have unemployed people ~ Every group in the Province is turned against th is Administration . I am amazed,Mr .

Chairman , that our people have not taken to the streets,and that may not be too far away . 1885

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 850 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: I would say, Mr. Chairman, but for the NEED programmes, the community development projects and the money that is coming in from Ottawa not only would we have gone down the tube a long time ago but our people would be destitute. The only thing that is saving Newfoundland at this point in our history is Ottawa. MR. G. TOBIN: They ¢ertainly do not say that in Burin. MR. NEARY: We know what they are saying in Burin about the hon. gentleman. Mr.

Chairman, it is amazing to me that the people have not taken to the streets, and that may not be too far away,because this administration have not lifted a finger to develop our natural resources. The only thing they have done in eleven years is argue and fight - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! MR. NEARY: - argue and fight with Ottawa. And they do not realize when they are doing this, Mr.

Chairman, that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador become very nervous and very angry,because they know that this administration have not lifted a finger to develop our natural resources and to generate new pources of revenue from this Province. They cannot point their finger to one new industry started in this Province in eleven years. They have closed down just about everything in Newfoundland and Labrador,now they are going to close the schools down. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: MR. W. MARSHALL: Order, please! The hon, member's time has elapsed, A good note to end on, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman. 1BB6

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 850 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. the President of the Council. MJ - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, make no wonder that we get a threat in the paper the other day that referred to the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts), as going to try to take over from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). PREMIER PECKFORD: Somebody got to. MR.

MARSHALL: In my dav - it is only myself and the Leader of the Opposition who would rerrember this now because we are the only ones here old enough,but it used to be,in the days when you used to go up to the Nickel Theatre, many years ago 1 you would probably see 'Red Rider Rides Again'. We get threatened, Mr. Chairman, on the weekend \·lith 'Red Roberts is going to ride again' and we can hardly wait. Even the member from the Strait of Belle Isle would be better than the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) if that is an indication of the quality of the way he is going to address the estimates of this Province,and particularly this Consolidated Revenue Fund which involves so many millions of dollars. Hr. Chairrran, when I got up to introduce this matter I invited the hon. gentleman to ask questions with respect to it and we would respond to , them, to ask questions with respect to the debt. SOesthe hon. gentleman know what is involved? He wants to talk about little gossipy things, about various little things that ride in his own perverted imagination, Mr.

Chairman, But the fact of the matter is,what we are discussing here in Consolidated Revenue Fund relates to the serious business of the Province. It relates to the provision of money for interest, some $277 millions next year for interest alone on temporary borrowinqs. 1887

April ll, 1983 Tape 851 PK - l MR. MARSHALL: Does the han. gentleman know what treasury bills are? Does he ask and question how much money is being spent out in Canada Pension plan? Does the han. gentleman ask anything about rental purchase that is there? Does he care about that and about loan guaranters, debt management expenses , pensions and gratuities, these items that carry a lot of concern to this Province and have a great demand on the budget of this Province? The han. gentlemen, some of them over there,look quizzical.

I do not think that the han. gentlemen even understand what these are about, but translated what they mean is money, Mr. Chairman, and money that is very hard to get. And I repeat again the only way in which - this is the most critical area of the budget really, because it is an area of the budget which is not voted on by this Legislature. It is not open to this Legislature to hurn around and say that we are not going to vote these monies, we are tagged with these monies. They represent a rope around the neck of this Province which we have to pay whether we like it or not. We pay that first, Mr.

Chairman, and then from the rest of the monies that we are able to get we then see what we have for the many other demands and needs of this Province. But is the han. gentleman interested in this, Mr. Chairman? Did he ask one question about it? Was he concerned about it at all? Not at all. He got up with his own old type of arcane speech, his own pre-Smallwoodian type of speech that he uses again and again without any ffect whatsoever or any question. I dare say, Mr. Chairman, that most of the members opposite do not even know what I am talking about.

No~most of the members there opposite do not even know what we are debating at the present time and I invite the hon. gentlenan to enter into a serious debate with respect to the financial constraints with which 1888 I

April 11, 1983 Tape 851 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: this Province is faced . Because there is only one way , Mr . Chairman , that we can deal with the financial restraints that this Province is meetin<;~ . J\nd it is not with respect to the mangement of the government I might say, Mr . Chairman , The bon . gentleman made reference to our credit rating .

The fact of the matter is, despite the fact that we labour with the lowest possible income in Canada, despite the fact that we have more demands on us per person than any other province of Canada , it is a matter of abiding pride that this administration has been able to keep the financial ship afloat in this Province and, indeed,to receive the commendation , not the condemnation, but the commendation of the various financial institutions . The hon. gentleman does not wish to talk, does he , r-tr. Chairman, about what happened to otlte r provinces nearpy?

What happened to the credit ratin g of the Province of Nova Scotia? What happened to the credit rating in the Province of New Brunswick and the Province; of Quebec , all with resources much more than ours? Their credit rating went down , Mr. Chairman. And I can inform the Rouse because of the management of this government, but for the hard financial times in which we find ourselves,our credit ratin g would have gone up. Indeed the financial institutions 1889

April 11 , 19 8 3 Tape No. 852 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: of North America and in Europe are very much impressed with the financial management of this Province. But they do not want to hear that, Mr. Chairman. They do not want to hear that at all.

The only way in which we are qoing to deal with the issues that are before us, the only way t.h. .-,.t- _ we are going to deal with this criticial expenditure - the hon. gentleman wants to get up and talk about . tripe and gossip and all sorts of stuff not related to the affairs of the Province,but the only way that Consolidated Fund Services is going to be reduced,as it most necessarily must 1is by increasing the revenues of this Province. I again say to the hon. gentlemen there are only two sources that we can get them from, that is from taxes.

This government realizes that the people of this Province have been taxed beyond what we would like them to be taxed, certainly. But our aim vras to reduce taxes. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, if the hon. gentlemen want to address themselves to any real issues at all, and they address themselves and they have any knowledge of the proposal that was put in on the offshore, one of the main cardinal basis of that proposal was that we would get a greater share of the revenues until such times as our taxation rates came down to the level of the rest of Canadians. So that, Mr.

Chairman, is where we must cope and we must grapple with the financial position that we are in. The only way ;that we can alleviate the financial situation and gain some relief is to get money through the resources which we brought into Canada, into Confederation with us. And I now ask the hon. gentlemen since they want to debate, what are they doing in aid of these efforts on our part to gain a reasonable,rational share 1890

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 852 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: of the resources? The only indication, the only thing that the hon. gentlemen are doing from time to time is,as the hon. gentleman opposite, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) indicated, and I quote him, he said, "The only thing that is saving this Province today is Ottawa." MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. MARSHALL: And that is the kind of mentality that has gotten the Province into the position it is,because that is the kind of mentality that embraces equalization and welfare payments, Mr.

Chairman, and that is the kind of future which the young people of this Province are faced with unless we can get some semblance of justice and equity on the Upper Churchill, and unless we can get some reasonable negotiated offshore agreement on the offshore. And make no mistake about it, Mr. Chairman, that is a fact and that is the situation. The hon. gentlemen there opposite wish to champion their fellows in Ottawa. It is not, Mr.

Speaker, that we are against Ottawa as such, but we are against the unequal treatment that this Province is receiving at the hands of the people who are the present custodians of the government in Ottawa. We are against the fact, Mr. Chairman, that we are discriminated against because of our geographical position in Canada. We are against the fact, Mr. Chainrem, that this government discriminates against us because we have a smaller population. And we have done and will continue to do everything possible to achieve a reasonable negotiated settlement.

There was a proposal with respect to the offshore which would have given a reasonable settlement but the hon. gentlemen in Ottawa, the hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources, or Energy (Mr. Chretien), whatever his title is, walked away from an agreement which he had arrived at in principle with me in December and January. The pulled a 1891

1\pril 11, 19 83 MR. MARSHALL : back to the - MR. TULK: MR. MARSHALL : been in the paper exactly. SOME HON. ME HBERS: MR. MARSHALL: 'J'ilpC No. 8 5 3 SD - l flip flop, they decided to go Read this. Read this. I have read that. That has Oh, oh! The hon. gentleman knows full well that the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources pulled a flip flop in Ottawa. Now ,what are the hon. gentlemen going to do with respect to the revenue?

Are they going to support - if they would support the Government of this Province in its position on the offshore, if they would get up and make a reasonable support of this Province on its position with hydro power rather than get up and make the kind of statements that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) did with respect to the statement on removal of the Hydro Quebec Directors from CFLCo today, if they would do these things perhaps we would get, Mr.

Chairman, a more reasonable revenue sharing and we would be able to cope much better than we have been able to with the financial position that we find ourselves in. Mr. Chairman, I invite the hon. gentlemen there opposite to deal seriously .with the serious finances of the Province as presented in the budget presented by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). I invite them to ask questions with respect to the Consolidated Revenue Funds. Do not be embarrassed.

If the hon. gentleman has been in the House for twenty-five years, auu he does not know what treasury bills a_re or what Canada Pension Plan payments are, we do not mind tell.ing him. We will not make fun of him. But at least ask the questions, Mr. Chairma_n, because the situation is extremely critical. The fact of the matter is , the borrowings 1892

April 11, 1983 Tape No. 853 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: of this Province are very high . They cause this Consolidated Fund Services, the demands of that to be very high. This crowds out our ability to be able to look after the other needs of this Province. And until we get revenues, Mr. Chairman, we are not going to be able to improve the situation. These revenues come from one source and one source only, they can only come from the resources. One of the reasons why we are denied a legitimate return on our resources is the fact that the hon. gentlemen there opposite wish to act like Liberals rather than Newfoundlanders.

MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this matter of the public debt and Consoldiated Fund Services is indeed very serious business and the hon. gentleman has not addressed himself to the problem yet. The problem, as the hon. gentleman indicated in the first speech he made toda~ has to do with the development of our resources. If we are going to reduce the public debt, if we are going to be able to meet the interest payments on the public debt, if we are going to be able to maintain services at their present level in thi