Manitoba Hansard — 28 May 1992 (Sitting 74, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-74

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis c. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLI No. 74 ·1 :30 p.m., THURSDAY, MAY 28, 1992 Printed by tiHJ Office of tiHJ Queens Printer, Provlnoe of Manltobe ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEW AR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park AinAon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

3891 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 28, 1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wellington {Ms. Barrett). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and It is the responsibi lity of the government to reco gnize and deal with this most vicious of cr imes; and Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humb ly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Rght Back Against Child Abuse campaig n. *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). It complies with the privileges and practi ces of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that: The Brandon General Hospital is the major health care institution for southwestern Manitoba; and The citizens of Brandon and southwestern Manitoba are deeply concerned and disturbed about the downsizing of the hospital and view it as a threat to the quality of health care in the region; and The Manitoba government has chosen not to review the current budget to ensure that cutbacks to vital services do not occur; and The administration of the hospital has been forced to take drastic measures including the elimination of the Palliative Care Unit and gynecological wards, along with the layoff of over 30 staff, mainly licensed practical nurses, to cope with a funding shortfall of over $1.3 million; and WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon General Hospital to avoid layoffs and cutbacks to vital services.

PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert to presenting petitions? [Agreed] Mr. Leonard Evans (Br andon East) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Jim Ball, Darcy Kernel, Darlene Teeple and other s requesting the government consider reviewing its funding of the Brandon General Hospital to avoid layoffs and cutbacks to vital services. * {1335) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 92- The Provincial Auditor's Amendment Act Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leade r): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment {Mr.

Cummings), that Bill 92, The Provincial Auditor's Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le verificate ur provincial), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, je tiens a vous signaler Ia presence, dans Ia galerie publique,

3892 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 92 de quarante etudiants de les onzieme et douzieme annees de l'ecole de Grandview, sous Ia direction de Melody Cazakoff. Cette institution est situee dans Ia circonscription du depute de Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). [Translation] I would like to indicate the presence in the public gallery of 40 students of Grade 11 and Grade 12 from Grandview Scho ol, under the direction of Melody Cazakoff. This school is located in the constituency of the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). [English] On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Port of Churchill Season Statistics Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on a number of occ asions the Port of Churchill and the status of our grain industry has been raised in this Chamber. Two weeks ago, some of us had the opportunity to attend meetings in the Port of Churchill and met with the people of Churchill commu nity.

Many were very, very cautiously optimistic when they had heard word that at that time there was going to be a major grain sale to the Soviet Union, and perhaps they could take advantage of the sale and take advantage of the words that the Premier uttered in the House on May 12, where he said that he was dealing with the Russian Embassy; he had met with the minister responsible for the Wheat Board; he had shared correspondence and he had written directly to the chief commissioner of the Canadian Wheat Board on the Port of Churchill-ell efforts that we support.

Since that time, unfortunately for Canadian grain farmers and for people at the port, we have heard that there are no confirmed sales that were in the media. We have heard that there are tremendous problems with ships and payments and with the new Russia republic, Mr. Speaker. We are left without any specific advice on how many ships will be going to the Port of Churchill this year, and how much tonnage will go through the Port of Churchill.

I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the fact that he has been in touch with so many of these people who are intricately involved in the Port of Churchill, how many ships and how many tons do we expect to go through the Port of Churchill in the 1992 shipping season? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we have been working as have people of all political stripes. I know that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and his colleagues expressed great optimism when some of them returned from an all-party delegation to Ottawa, along with the Port of Churchill people.

The optimism was that they were given a good hearing, that people there appeared to be sympathetic to the cause and to the proposal that they put forward. I was pleased when I received support from my colleagues the western Premiers 10 days ago, and certainly those people did indicate that they supported Manitoba in its efforts to have grain shipped through the Port of Churchill this year and beyond and to have a strong federal comm itment to that. *

(1340) Having said all of that, we have no specific or definitive word, any more so than the Leader of the Opposition does, but we continue to be very, very energetically pursuing the interests of having the Port of Churchill operate as much as possible to optimum capacity, and I have written directly to the head of the Canadian Wheat Board, Mr. Hehn. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Driedger) has likewise pursued and lobbied the Wheat Board and others, federal counterparts .

We will cont inue all those efforts to the end result that we hope will be that there will be grain shipped through the Port of Churchill and that there will be efficient and effective use of that port this year. Port of Churchill Rail Line Usage Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The shipments to the Port of Churchill were close to the break-even point in the '80s. Many of the years in the '80s were close to the 650,000 tons necessary to keep the Port of Churchill viable. The Port of Churchill, we believe, is one of the great assets of Manitoba.

To have a seaport in a prairie province, I think, is a tremendous asset. Unfortunately, the vision of that asset has never been realized to our full potential in this province and in this country. The shipments are declining radically, Mr. Speaker. In 1988 there was only one ship in the Port of Churchill, and again, from '90 and '91, it is declining a

May 28, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3893 tremendous amount, well below the 650,000 tons that is necessary to develop that kind of support. We continually hear from the Canadian Wheat Board and from ministers responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board that the rail line cannot support the hopper cars to the Port of Churchill, yet all the evidence is contrary. All the evidence is that oil tankers and other cars, cement cars, have gone on that rail line up to Gillam and up to Churchill, and they could withstand and maintain hopper cars to the Port of Churchill. I am wondering, Mr.

Speaker, if the Premier has received any assurances from CN and the minister responsible for the Wheat Board to change their policy on hopper cars and go to the modern hopper car s for the Por t of Chur c hill, thus again guaranteeing some economic benefits to the people of Manitoba and the Port of Churchill. Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, we have continually brought forward the position that we feel, our government feels, my staff people feel, that we should be able to have hopper cars going all the way to Churchill, because we have had hopper cars going all the way to Limestone. The line that is going from Gillam to Churchill actu ally is a more stable line than the one on this side of it. We have continually put that position forward. We have not been able to get that kind of commi tment from CN. I want to indicate also that the stabilization of the rail line itself is something that we have done some experimental work on.

Some tests have been done on it. A fair amount of money has been expended on it. We feel the cost that CN is putting forward in terms of that rail line stabilization is excessive , because we have figures that we are putting forward to the federal government that are substantially less. We hope that kind of thing will ultimately resolve the issue about whether we can use hopper cars all the way down to Churchill. Port of Churchill Grain Shipments - Russian Republic Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Again, there are no ships guaranteed for the 1992 shipping year.

This tonnage has dropped from '86 and '87 where it was close to 600,000 tons now to a point where it is almost one-third of that, Mr. Speaker. Things are very, very tough for the people of the Port of Churchill without that transportation port. Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has indicated that he will be meeting with the president of the Russian republic in a month dealing with the shipment of grain to the Russian republic and the sale of grain that is pending, the entanglement on the shipping issues and the credit issues with Russia.

The Premier, of course, has a strong interest in these discussions, both in terms of the farmers of western Canada and Manitoba and in terms of the people of Churchill. I would ask: Has the Premier been in contact with the Prime Minister on this issue? What assurances has he received from the Prime Minister about both shipping and the sale to the Russian republic? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I have, on numerous occasions in the past, expressed continued interest and support for the Port of Churchill and support for the continued federal presence and involvement.

I have expressed that to many, many people at the federal level including the Prime Minister. *

(1345) The member might well know that the Port of Churchill was one of the matters that we put into our agreement with the Russian federation last year in September, the agreement that we signed when we were in Russia. We have since had follow-up corres pondence from the Russians to say that they continue to be supportive of the use of the Port of Churchi ll. That is the matter that continues. Agricultural Industry Net Farm Income Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, last week, du ring the Estimates, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Findlay) painted a rosy picture of a future for agriculture here in Manitoba. He said farmers were tired of doom and gloom and they wanted to hear some positive news. Unfortunately, the latest Statistics Canada figures show that the Minister of Rnance's rosy forecasts for the net farm income for 1991 were as wrong as he has been with the forecasts on the economy in all of the other areas in Manitoba. The March budget forecast net farm income for 1991, Mr. Speaker, was at $303 million and the final figures now come in at $191 million. That is a full 37 percent drop in income.

How can the Minister of Finance explain this discrepancy? How can he feel that farmers can have any faith in his forecast for the

3894 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 92 improvement in the next year that he is forecasting in his budget? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, without accepting any element of the numbers just presented by the member, I know one thing, there is always a change in methodologies as between the presentation of certain numbers, and certainly net farm income stats are one element. I will take the question as notice, and I will attempt to provide a greater detailed answer to the member another day. Mr. Plohman: The mi nister should understand his own numbers, Mr. Speaker.

How can the Minister of Finance claim the major improvement that he has in his last budget, and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) has supported for 1992, when Statistics Canada shows that Manitoba agriculture had the largest decline in the first quarter in realized net cash receipts, a 7.5 percent decline, the biggest decline of any province in Canada, 1 0 out of 1 0? How can this minister claim improvements in his budget for 1992? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I have some numbers.

I do not know whether the member will accept them or not, but I know in 1991 over '90, that there was an increase in farm cash receipts of .4 of 1 percent, roughly around $8 million, from a $1.97-billion increase to $1.98 billion. As far as the first quarter, January-March numbers, Mr. Speaker, in terms of 1991, there seems to be an increase yet again of another 0.4 percent-not robust, not like we would like to see, but certainly steady increases. Again, I am talking the data source being Statistics Canada. Agriculture Ministers' Mee ting Agenda Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, the minister is ignoring the question which dealt with the first quarter of '92, showing a 7.5 percent decrease for Manitoba, the largest decrease in Canada, in cash receipts. Will the Minister of Agriculture now acknowl edge that agriculture is far from out of the crisis that we have been faci ng over the last number of years, and will he put the issues of federal offloading and agriculture and the need for further federal aid in agriculture at the top of the agenda when the Ministers of Agriculture next meet with the federal minister? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture) : Mr.

Speaker, the economic situation of agriculture in Manitoba and western Canada is always on our agenda. Certainly the member likes to promote the figures of doom and gloom, but I would like to put some more figures on the record, that the 1991 realized net income in Manitoba over 1990 was up 23 percent, the second highest increase in the country. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the member to accept my figures because I have accepted his.

There seems to be some question as to the authenticity of both the figures that we received a few months ago from Statistics Canada and the figures we are now getti ng, which seem to come from Agriculture Canada. They show various figures for incomes and expenses, so the realized net income ac tually varies by $100 million for 1991.

I find that variance quite unaccepta ble, and as of today, I have written a letter to the federal Minister of Agriculture to explain the discrepancies of the figures they put out most recently versus the figures that were put out some months ago, and to explain the methodologies of why they are so different, because they are very different, and they are very unacceptable in that fashion. *

(1350) Communications Initiative Research and Development Funding Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne) : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. The federal government has just announced a $40-million initiative on commu nicatio ns, research and development that will be spent across the country, and I would like to ask the minister: How much of that $40 million will be spent here in Manitoba? Hon.

Eric Ste fanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): The preliminary indications are that some $2.5 million of that will be spent in western Canada, and a detailed breakdown as to provinces has not been provided at this time. Telecommunications Laboratory Government Discussions Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne) : Well, Mr. Speaker, the preliminary indication is that none of it will be spent here in Manitoba.

May 28, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3895 Mr. Speaker, for 18 months, TR labs of Edmonton has had a proposal to establish a joint business, university and government research initiative here in Manitoba-for 18 months. Can the minister tell us when that initiative will begin? Hon. Eric Stefa nson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I indic ated that we received notification of this contract yesterday in terms of the $40 million. I do want to clarify that $2.5 million is in western Canada, and there is the possibility of some of it being provided within Manitoba.

So the answer is not necessarily zero in terms of the provision for Manitoba, but we certainly find the overall allocation in terms of the vast majority, the 37.5 to eastern Canada and the province of Quebec, as being unaccepta ble. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, the $2.5 million is to the Banff Centre which is not as yet in Manitoba. I would like to ask the minister about the telecom munications research lab which for 18 months has had a proposal before this minister's department to establish a research unit here in Manitoba. The university is enthusiastic. MTS, in Hansard, is enthusiastic.

The federal government is even offering to support this initiative. Why has this minister's department taken some 18 months to reach a decision, and have they reached a decision? Mr.Stefa nson: Mr. Speaker, no decision has been reached . We are cu rrently in the midst of negotiations on a western economic partnership agreement with the federal government as it relates to com munic ations, a $1 0-milli on five-year agreement. Once again, I have to clarify what the honourable member sug gested.

While we realize that the allocation is going to the Banff Centre, the $2.5 million, the early indic ations are that there still is an opportunity for some of that to work its way into Manitoba. So that final analysis and that final decision is not complete , Mr. Speaker, but the most important aspect of it is in terms of the overall allocation. We are not satisfied, and we will be pursuing it with the federal government. Foreign Domestic Workers Investigations Ms. Marianne Cer llll (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, the federal Conservative government and this Conservative government, by not advocati ng on their behalf, have not only ign ored the reco mmendation of foreign domestic workers when they ask that the live-in requirement be eliminated from the program when the government considered changing the program, but we have now been told that these women are being investigated and even interrogated by Immigration officials. They are being informed that because they are no longer officially part of the program, they have to go back to their country of origin.

My question is for the minister responsible for the Citizenship division. Does the minister have any information with regard to this apparent crackdown on domestic workers in Manitoba? Can she explain why these women are being treated in this fashion when they are here under the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I have absolutely no information, and I am sure there are no provincial officials who are terrorizing any immigrants. I would be very surprised if they were.

If there is some detail or if in fact there are people who are being terrorized in our province, I might ask the critic to provide that information on a detailed basis with some names and some back ground, and we will certai nly look into it. *

(1355) Ms. Cer llll: Mr. Speaker, we have been asking the minister to get involved in this issue. I would ask the minister if she will ensure that women who are here under the previous program, but have an agreement in their contract to live out, are not going to be questioned and investigated and be threatened with the possibility of being forced to leave the country. Mrs. Mitchels on: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicat ed, I have met with the organizations that represent domestic workers.

I have been at events in the comm unity and have expressed my concern that no country should be discrimi nated against and how we value domestic workers here in our province. I would not tolerate any intimidation by officials of the provincial government, or indeed no one should be intimidated in this province. I

3896 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA May28, 1992 indicated earlier and offered to the critic that if she had detailed info rmation and names and background, we would certainly look into it. Ms. Cerll ll: We are asking if the minister would advocate on behaH of people who are living in Manitoba. I am going to table a letter which shows that one domestic worker is being told that she may as well leave the country, because she has not fulfilled the live-in requirement.

I would ask the minister to ensure by contacting the federal government that, if federal immigration officials are going to have time to investigate domestic workers, they also have time to ensure that these women, if they are not employed in the program, have assistance in finding employment so that they may remain in the country. Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The question has been put. Mrs. Mitchelson: I look forward to seeing the documentation that is being provided today in the House, and I will look into the matter. Manitoba Housing Authority Service to Seniors Ms . Rosa nn Wo wchuk (Swan River) : Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Housing. Because of actions taken by this government to shut down housing authorities, housing services, particularly in rural Manitoba, are in complete disarray. There is confusion, reduced services, and there are also increased costs for our seniors. Recently, in response to a question for the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), the minister said things were going according to schedule. I want to ask the minister, if this is the

schedule and this is what he had planned for the program, to have this confusion. Will he admit that his plan has failed and, will he look at ways of giving better service for our seniors, particularly in rural Manitoba? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I totally reject the

preamble and the assertions of the member for Swan River. She knows not of what she speaks. Mr. Speaker, we implemented on May 1, the full operations of the Manitoba Housing Authority. Already we have saved a significant amount of money over what was expended previously under the former local housing authorities. We intend to save a great deal more. Ms. Wowchuk: Well, I guess if saving money is more important than seniors- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Staffing Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River) : I would like to ask the minister why the office in Roblin has not been filled, has not been staffed, and in fact, one office person has quit there, and there are only temporary people working. Why have the local people from Dauphin and Swan River not been offered jobs at that office? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, those people were invited to make application for jobs in those offices. In fact, in one case, we had a person from Swan River actually decline to take the job, even though it was offered to that person. So, Mr.

Speaker, because local applications from within housing authorities have been exhausted, we are now in a public advertising mode. We have, in fact, a week ago last Satu rday, publ ished advertisements both in Winn ipeg and local newspapers. We are receiving those applications and the appropriate process for filling those positions in those communities will be followed. Service to Seniors Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River) : Mr.

Speaker, the services for the seniors are very serious, and I want to ask the minister if he will admit that there is a problem, and if he will give special consideration to the seniors who live in such communities as Ethelbert, Grandview, Pine River, Camperville, where they do not have the services. There is confusion ; there is nobody in the community now who is going to look at them. They have to pay long-distance costs- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. * (1 400) Hon. Jim Erns t (Minis ter of Housing): Mr. Speaker, the communities to which the member refers, I will investigate the specifics.

The question of local representation is there. They will have on-site management in those projects. H there is some confusiol'l-6nd there may well be, because when you change systems, when you change from one system to another there is, generally speaking, the odd glitch that occurs or in fact some confusion in the minds of the tenants. It

May 28, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3897 is anticipated, that within the next month tenant relations officers will be visiting those projects and discussing the matter with the seniors to ensure that they understand the process and understand what is now taking place and where they have the opportunity of calling. If they have to make a phone call to an office, each one of those offices has a 1- 800 phone number. There is no cost to call that office. Foreign Domestic Workers Deportation Intervention Mr. Kevi n Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Last night, I was informed that there were a number of domestics who in fact were put in a situation in which we believe that the provincial government might be of some assistance, where they came to Canada as a live-in domestic but for whatever reasons were not actually living with the employers. So there is some miscommunication. I would ask if the government would in fact look into it and possibly negotiate on behalf of some of these individuals to see if we can resolve the matter, so that the individuals are not in fact deported.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I believe I have already answered that question. I asked the NDP critic for that information. I would ask the Liberals to provide that same information so it can be looked into. Foreign Domestic Workers' Program Minister's Correspondence Request Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): The minister made a commitment to do what she can to preserve the foreign domestic program, and has mentioned on numerous occasions that she has met and discussed with different organizations.

We have asked the minister, and I would ask the minister today: Would she table any correspondence that she has had with her federal counterparts dealing with the domestic program? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenshi p): I have indicated on many occasions that we, in this province, will not tolerate any country being discriminated against in allowing those who are eligible to come here to work, whether it be in the domestic worker field or any other area.

We will continue to maintain that stance, and we will continue to work on behalf of those who are here and who are coming to our province. Multicultural Legislation Introduction Mr.Kevl n Lamoureux(lnk ster) : Mr. Speaker, this government has promised The Multicultural Act. I will ask the minister: Is the minister going to live up to the promise of this government and introduce a multicultural act, as per the Throne Speech Debate, in this session, yes or no? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Her itage and Citizens hip): Mr. Speaker, The Multicultural Act will be introduced very soon.

Child Guidance Clinic Government Position Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. Winnipeg's Child Guidance Clinic, which provides services to virtually all children in the city of Winnipeg for diagnostic treatment and guidance of children, is respected as unique in North America. However, as of today or recently, almost all school divisions outside of Winnipeg No. 1 have indicated their intention to pull out of the clinic or seriously alter the arrangement with the clinic.

I am asking the Minister of Education what the gov ernme nt's position is with respect to the provision of services by Child Guidance Clinic, since a pullout or change will seriously alter the provision of services to special needs kids. Hon. Clayton Manness (Acting Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey), I will take the question as notice. Mr. Chomlak: Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary is: Since the government sets the standards by which students are provided these services, will the government categorically outline and state what their position is in this regard? Mr. Manness: Again, Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice on behalf of the minister. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, will the government provide at least the mediation role to try to bring the parties together to try to ensure that the operation of the Child Guidance Clinic, as it is recognized in North America, can continue?

3898 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 92 Mr. Manness: A similar response, Mr. Speaker. Home Care Program Ucensed Practical Nurses' Role Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Home care is a major aspect of community-based health and absol utely essential to the reform process. In order to meet the very high expectation we have all placed on home care, we must start working now to improve the skills of home care workers. The community-based care demand s more skills from these workers.

Does the minister agree that we should be moving towards having more LPN nurses in the field of home care because of the new expectations and new responsibility under the new health care plan? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, I would anticipate that as the Home Care Program provides a greater degree of service that is currently available in our acute care hospitals, either through delay or replacement of admission to acute care hospitals or on the early discharge side, that the nursing professionals, inclucflng the LPNs but also the registered nursing profession, will probably fit a significant portion of that increased responsibility in the Continuing Care Program.

Also though, Sir, I think it is fair to say that we see an en han ced role for the occupational and physiotherapies as well in terms of an enhanced role for continuing care. Mr. Cheema : Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health tell us if he has discussed this issue with the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) to make arrangements for the LPN programs to be updated so that the home care needs can be met? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, as my honourable friend knows, there is a significant expectation on training and retraining in terms of the reform proposal to shift resources and people needing care away from the institution, the high-cost institution of comm unit y-based care. In the process of establishing training and retraining, those issues we expect would be addressed. However, Mr. Speaker, I would like to indicate to my honourable friend that our training programs do have significant maturity right now in terms of ability to train individuals to deliver services in the home through the Continuing Care Program.

Whether the retraining and training requirements would lead to an enhancement of those programs, I am certainly open to that kind of suggestion and discussion. Ucensed Pracucal Nursing Educational Opportunnles Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples) : Mr. Speaker, in view of the minister's own reply, can the minister tell us now-or will he agree to maintain the existing program for LPNs until the long-term planning under the new health care reform can take place, because we are going to have a moratorium on one training facility and they are going to close St. Boniface Hospital?

We must have a correct answer from the minister or a response. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Well, Mr. Speaker, the issue of training and numbers of trained graduates in the LPN has been discussed now for several months, and part and parcel of the solution to removal or to deal with the issue of the moratorium on training at Red River Community College centres in a significant way on the survey of our employers in the province, in terms of them giving us their best guess of what their future needs in terms of nursing professionals will be.

That will help to guide the training in LPNs as well as our other nursing professionals. Economic Growth Consumer Confidence Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : Mr. Speaker, although retail sales were up in January and February of this year over last year, figures now available from Statistics Canada show that there has been a decline in the province of Manitoba for the month of March of this year compared to last year. In fact, Manitoba was the only province in western Canada to experience a decline in retail sales.

In fact, retail sales in March were lower than they were in 19 89, and when you take inflation into account, retail sales are definitely lower than they were before this government took office. My question to the Minister of Finance is: How can the minister be so confident in our economic growth prospects when consumer spending in this province is floundering? *( 1410 ) Hon. Clayton Manness {Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, I had numbers to respond to that. I will try from memory to recall. January to March, first

May 28, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3899 quarter, 1992 versus forecast, I believe we are up 6 percent over forecast in retails sales tax revenue. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I will share with you and the House that the month of April numbers are in, and retail sales tax actual receipts are some 12 percent above forecast, which says amongst other things, that the consumer confidence with respect to purchasing, although it has not come back to where we wish it were, there is a foundation taking place.

Indeed there is an understanding at least that this recession is wearing its way through, and there is a confidence building. I would think that all members would take some satisfaction in that. Mr. Leonard Evans: Thank you to the minister for the information, and we would like to assume that confidence is coming back, butthere are other signs of weakness. My question , therefore, to the Minister of Finance: Will the Minister of Finance not acknowledge that we are still really in the economic doldrums, when we look at other current economic indicators? Manufacturing shipments are still declining.

Employment and manufacturing have declined. Housing starts are a fraction of what they were in 19 88 before this government took office. My question-(inte�ection] Mr. Speak er: Order, please. Mr. Leonard Evans: My question to the minister is: Will this minister acknowledge that today, after four years being in government, five budgets, with Manitoba's economy- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I am having great difficulty. The honourable member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) is making an awful lot of noise. I am having great difficulty in hearing.

Now, has the honourable member for Brandon East put his question, because I could not hear? I did not hear the honourable member's question. Mr. Leonard Evans: Will this Minister of Finance acknowledge that the Manitoba economy is still stagnating after four years in government and five budgets? Mr. Speaker: Okay, I heard that Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I just flipped to my page on retail sales. Then I heard "housing starts" come up, and I flipped over to it. The member is all over the place. The member is having a hard time developing any coherence in his question. Mr.

Speaker, let me say with respect to retail sales: On an unadjusted basis for the first quarter of 19 92, Manitoba retail sales were up 3.1 percent-tied for B.C. for fourth best across Canada. I would have to think that given the fact that our income levels have not grown maybe consistently with the national average, as indeed it has been pointed out by members from across the way on a daily basis, he would take some considerable glee, as I do, of the fact that we rank that high with respect to retail sales. Mr. Speaker, with respect to how the economy is doing in Manitoba, as the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) has said several times this week, we are-{interjection] Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the Leader of the Opposition wants to go, but he is giddyapping and he is roaring. I do not know what his problem is, but obviously he has some difficulty. His main difficulty is, he is in control of a fractured caucus, and they do not know what it is they want. That is his problem. As far as the economy of the province, Mr. Speaker, it is progressing, it is proceeding along the path that is laid out in the budgets over the last two years. Manufacturing Industry Mr.

Leonard Evans {Brandon East): Will the minister concede that a very important industry, which is manufacturing, there is no sign of a turnaround in our manufacturing industry, given the decline in 19 90, 19 91 and continuing the decline in 19 92? There are no signs of improvement. Will the minister concede that our manufacturing industry is declining? Hon. Clayton Manness {Minister of Finance): As far as the value of manufacturing shipments, I understand, by latest ranking, we are still fifth. We are more or less, on the most part, at the national average.

Our basic sectors within manufacturing are restructuring at this point in time. I have an opportunity to talk to our manufacturers on a weekly basis. They are telling me that their costs are coming more in line on a weekly basis in a competitive sense with what it is they have to meet as their competition into U.S. markets. Mr. Speaker, the restructuring that all of us know that has to go on is occurring, and indeed, if the member will just bear with the economic activity over the course of the next number of months, he will see

3900 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA May 28, 1992 that the budgetary matters and the budgetary issues, all of which he has voted against over the last five budgets, are beginning to pay their dividends. No doubt, that is why Manitoba has indicated the forecast of leading Canada in economic growth over the course of the next two or three years. Manitoba Housing Authority Clarification Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan Rive r): Mr. Speaker, in answer to a question, the Minister of Housing {Mr. Ernst) just said that the worker in Swan River was offered the job. That is not true.

The worker from Swan River was told that he did not have enough experience, even though he was one of the most experienced people in rural Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Cl ayton Manne ss (Government House Leader ): Mr. Speaker, if the member is rising on a point of personal privilege, which is her right to do, then I would ask that she do so, she signify or otherwise withdraw, because she is making a very curious allegation, a spurious allegation, and I ask her to withdraw it. Mr. Steve Ashton (OpposHion House Leader) : Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is very clear. The member for Swan River {Ms.

Wowchuk) is asking a question. The minister earlier put information on the record that was not true which he has subsequently checked. I believe she is giving him the opportunity to admit to the fact he made a mistake and clear up the record in terms of what is happening in his department. It is very clearly a question that is in order. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable government House leader does not have a point of order. *** Mr. Speak er: Now I would ask the honourable member for Swan River to kindly put your question now, please. Ms.

Wowchuk: Will the Minister of Housing admit that he made a mistake; a job was not offered to the person from Swan River, and there is no toll-free number to phone into the Dauphin office? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I am not sure which employee the member refers to. I am advised there were four or five employees at the Dauphin Housing Authority. One of those employees, who applied for a clerk's job in Roblin, I am advised, was offered the job and subsequently declined. I do not have the name here.

I will be prepared to provide that name to the member for Swan River after Question Period. With respect, Mr. Speaker, to the question of toll-free lines, if they are not in place, they soon will be in place in those offices. Mr. Speaker : The hono urable member for Wellington--one very short question. Children's Residential Facilities Curriculum Committee Ms. Becky Barrett (Welli ngton) : Mr. Speaker, on April 30, the Minister of Family Services tabled or shared with us a government response to the independent review of reporting procedures in children's residential facilities.

One of the major immediate items in the recommendations that were going to be undertaken immediately was the establishment of a residential care curriculum commi ttee. The residential care cu rriculum committee needed to be in place before- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Kindly put your question now, please. Ms. Barrett : Can the Minister of Family Services tell the House one month after this immediate committee was to be put in place, a committee that reflects on six major recommendations, what the status of that committee is? Hon. Harold Gllle shammer (Minister of Family Services) : Mr.

Speaker, the working committee that was struck is composed of a number of individuals from the Department of Family Services, the Department of Education, the Department of Health and others who are part of this working group. My understanding is that they will be having their first meeting on June 4. Mr. Speak er: Time for Oral Questions has expired. * {1420) Nonpolitical Statement Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Se ine River) : Yes, Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [Agreed) I rise today to congratulate an outstanding young man from my constituency who attends Ecole St.

Germain Elementary School. Travis Piche is a

May 28, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3901 seven-year-old Grade 1 student who placed second at the National Chess Championships held in Montreal on May 17 and 18 . This National Chess competition includes players from Grades 1 through 12 from across Canada. Travis was the only Grade 1 student from Manitoba to compete at the national level. He has been playing chess for approximately two years, and in this year's competitions he placed first at the school level, first at both the regional and provincial levels, thus qualifying him for this national competition.

His second place success at the national level was another first for a Manitoban. Travis has become the only Manitoban to bring home a National Chess trophy. I would ask all honourable members to join with me today in congratulating Travis. This is truly an outstanding achievement for an exceptional young Manitoban. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Lead er): Mr. Speaker, before we move into Comm ittee of Supply, I wonder if there is a disposition to waive private members' hour today. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour?

An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Spe aker: No. Disallowed. Mr. Manness: I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture, and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) AGRICULTURE Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurende au): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Su ppl y, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. When the com mittee last sat, it had been considering item 4.(

d) Soils and Crops Branch on page 16 of the Estimates book. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, I would like to just remind the minister that there were some documents asked for over the last couple of sessi ons, some dealing with decentralization and some documents from MACC, in terms of detail in the budget. As we noted, the detail was not sufficient in the Supplemen tary Estimates information, and that was going to be provided. So I just remind the minister of those two at least. There may be others.

I have not had a chance to read through all of the Hansard for the Estimates that we have had so far, but I believe there are a number. In addition to that, I wanted to ask the minister about a letter dated May 14 that he received from Mr. Neil Knight of Power Rich Corporation dealing with the news release that was put out by Mr. John Ewanek. Was that dealt with here?

Okay, I will not ask the minister to repeat everything he said the other day, but I just want to ask him whether in fact the gist ofthe arguments made about micronutrients is basically factual, as the minister sees it, and whether he has met with Mr. Knight to resolve this concern that he has expressed here. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Staff have talked with Mr. Knight and are prepared to meet with him to review any information he might have to substantiate his point that soils in Manitoba need micronutrients.

Basically our position is that micronutrients undoubtedly are needed in some soils for some crops but certainly not for all soils and all crops, and soil test analysis is obviously the best way to determine if there is need, and if that is not satisfactory, then plant tissue analysis can also be used. The general scientific information available would indicate that certainly in some cases there is undoubtedly some need in some crops but not for every crop and all soils in the province, but staff will further discuss with the individual information he has to support his case.

3902 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 1992 Mr. Plohman: In that regard, is it the minister's practice and the departm ent's to take it upon themselves to attempt to discredit new companies that are bringing in products that are not necessarily conventional? I see this as being a very strongly worded document, this news release, that reflects directly on Power Rich and maybe perhaps some other companies in the same business that have not been established for the length of time that conventional fertilizer companies have been.

I do not know that it is practice of government to intervene except when occasionally police might warn that there are organizations around that are doing something Dlegal or maybe taking advantage of old people, trying to get them to take their money out of the bank, things like that, and there are public warnings issued. But I find this rather surprising that the government would take it upon themselves to atte mp t alm ost di rectly to discredit what is happening with regard to new fertilizer technique s and approaches for farmers.

It would seem to me that it would be incumben t upon the farmers who are thinking about buying that to consult with their Ag rep and other specialists to determ ine whether they feel it is necessary for them to purchase it, but to make this kind of a blanket statement seems to me an interference in the marketplace. *

(1430) Mr. Findlay: Mr. Dep uty Cha irpers on, the individual who wrote the news release was thinking of several products when he wrote it. Power Rich seems to think it is aimed at them, but they were not mentioned in the news release. No finger was poi nted at th em. They have take n it up on themselves to think that they are the identified party. Truly that is not the case.

It was simply a matter of, as I think the membe r indicated the other the day, that it is important that farmers be kept informed, and that is all that was being done, inform farmers to evaluate the products, look at the costs, look at their needs and make an informed decision. H more information is needed, generally, prompt the person to speak to a specialist or an ag rep, but simply to inform people, be aware that relative to your analysis, look at the cost, look at the need.

I f you are not sure of your need, soil analysis would be appropriate, but it was not intended in any way to discredit any particular products, just a general warning that scientific information is generated for all kinds of input units that farmers use, and that a farmer making a decision should call for all the information he can come up with. Mr. Plohman: I am concerned about this, and I do not want to take a great deal of time on it, but I think it is important. The minister has access to staff in terms of, perhaps, the names.

There cannot be a long list of other companies besides Power Rich that are operating in Manitoba that this could possibly have been targeted at in terms of alerting the potential customers of those products, those being the farmers. Who else is in this business in Manitoba, and what other products are we talking about here? Mr. Findlay: The reason that the press release was written was more or less because producers had been asking staff about a variety of products that were advertised.

I am not going to name any other names, but there are other units on the market that farmers have had concerns about and asked questions of. The purpose was to make more farmers aware, to ask questions and evaluate the pros and cons, the relative costs and probable benefits of using anything of this nature. Mr. Plohman: I think I would feel more comfortable with what the minister is saying if the wording in the news release was not so blatant: Farmers should be cautiou s of new fertilizers that boast unusually high yields or claim to improve the soil environment.

It really is attac king the advertising of whoever the companies that are being targeted here, or individuals. It seems to me-and you could go on and on in the news release-that it was quite aggressive. I do not know whether the minister has taken any action to cauti on his staff to avoid making these kinds of statements, but I think this has gone too far. I say that for the record at this point, and perhaps we will have a chance to pursue that further at some point in the future. Mr.

Findlay: I would ask the member if he is now saying that if somebody makes claims that cannot be substantiated by scientific evidence, if that is okay that they make those claims, the farmers, and we do not respond. Is that what he is saying? Mr. Plohman: I think the minister has to take the onus upon himself to ensure that what he is claiming and what his staff are claiming is accu rate rather than making statements which cast aspersions and reflect on a firm or an individual. The minister is quite correct ; he did not target any particular firm,

May28, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3903 but nor did he rule out any particular products or firms. Right? So what we have here then is a gene ral broad-brush approach which casts aspersions on anyone in that field. 1 think that is regrettable, and I think, quite clearly, this has gone too far. The minister is now, by his last question, saying that he does not consider anything in this news release as be ing too aggressive in this area. Then I have to take issue with him on that.

I think that there are statements in there that can be construed as something that interferes in the marketing of legitimate companies. If the minister has specific companies' products that he thinks the scientific evidence does not support, then he should say that specifically but not make these general statements that cast aspersions on all the products. I think that is what this does-and on the firm itself. Mr. Findlay: Well, I think the member answered his own comments by saying that nobody was identified in the news release.

So it is not casting aspersions on anyone, but it is making farmers aware to ask the appropriate questions and ask for information that can prove the claims that are being made in any advertisement. 1 think it is just good common consumer sense to approach products like that, ask for the evidence to prove the scientific information. I would ask if there has been any valid scientific analysis done of the products that are being sold. That is all that is being pursued here.

I think it is only valid, in terms of protecting the farmer, to make him aware that sometimes people do make claims, and if they make claims, just ask them for the scientific backup to the claim. Mr.

Plohman: I agree that the interests of farmers have to be protected and, of course, have to be balanced with the interests of the particular company; in this particular case, one that has taken issue with what has been said here, but when the minister allows his staff to make these kinds of sweeping statements, which can be very destructive to the potential business of a company such as this, surely he would have had first required the proof from his staff. The analysis should have been done. * (1 440) The onus is on the government and the minister and his department.

Before ma king those statements, would it not have been better to call them in and say: Look, our evidence shows that what you are saying is wrong, is misleading; you are making claims you cannot substantiate; we want to hear if you can, because if you do not, we are going to be making some public statements about this to protect the public interest. Did the minister do that before he made these statements? Mr.

Findlay: I guess it is fair to say that the products of this general nature have been on the market for a period of time, and we have been continually expecting to see some scientific information to validate the substantial way the claims that they want to make year in and year out. The university scientists have commented in a similar direction. As I said in the first answer, that the staff are in the process of setting up a meeting with the individual involved, and I think it is imperative at that meeting that the request be made for valid scientific information.

It seems that there are testimonials being made, but that is not valid scientific information. I think in the interests of protecting producers we want to pursue the justified scientific information that the individual can provide. I think that is good for all that that be pursued. Mr. Plohman: I agree that this should have been pursued, particularly if it has been on the market for some years. I would have thought that the minister would have had his staff or the university would have undertaken some study on this to do some analysis. It could not be that expensive to do it.

The damage is now done, quite possibly, because there were some fairly negative stories, the Country Guide that included it, The Co-operator, as a result of that news release. So when the minister's department produces a news release, it gets taken seriously and undoubtedly was meant to be taken seriously. The fact is that the damage could be somewhat irreversible in terms of its impact for some time to come in terms of the cost to the company and employees and economic activity in the province.

Now, if they are ripping off farmers, I think that the first thing that the department should have done, and the minister making that decision, is said, well, what is your evidence? Where is your scientific evidence to prove that these guys are making claims that are not true? If he would have had that kind of evidence, then perhaps making this kind of a statement after a statement to the company, telling them of what was intended, and that might have been a legitimate action.

3904 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 92 I am just sa ying that the minister went too far without first making sure that study was done. He has access to the scientist who could quite quickly put together a very detailed response to the product and thus proving scientifically that it does not, that it cannot substantiate the claims that are being made. But the minister has not said that he has ac tually done that-a study.

He said there have been conc erns by commen ts made by the University of Manitoba, comments made by maybe others in his department and so on, but he has never actually done a study to get the definitive analysis before he made the public statement which is now·irreversible. That is all I am saying to the minister. I think he should not allow or at least at this point should have learned something from this and say, look, in the future we are going to have to have that data beforehand. Mr.

Findlay: Anytime a company puts a product on the market, whether it is a pesticide or a fertilizer, they are required to do efficacy studies to back up the claims that they are going to make. It is important that everybody that puts a product on the market do his efficacy studies. If the companies involve d-how man y products we are talking about?-1 am not sure. If they have efficacy studies to prove their claims, I would think they would bring it forward very quickly to say that the statements went too far because this is the evidence we have.

This might be fair to say, we are trying to flush out that information if it exists. If it does not exist, then I think it is time that they take their products to an Agriculture Canada Research Station or the University of Manitoba and have it included in a bona fide scientific experiment that compared the performance of that versus conventional products or no products. I think that analysis needs to be done for the good of the companies wanting to sell the products, for the good of the farmer who is buying it, and that is what we are trying to see happen.

So far we are not aware that there is any scientific evidence on the record , and if it is, we are certainly looking for it to be brought forward. The purpose of the meeting is to put that point across very clearly. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, would it not have been more orthodox to have said to the company, you had better have the scientific information? We want it or else we are going to have to go with a public statement, rather than just make the public statements and say that was a way of flushing them out. That is not the minister's role to be flushing in that respect.

I think you would be asking them for the scientific information. Failure to get it would then warrant further act ion. The minister could-that is what I am saying-elert them that if they do not provide that kind of scientific information, he is going to have to take further steps. Did he do that? Did he write to them and say we need to have, we demand to see, the scientific evidence to support your claims? If we do not get it, we are going to have to take further public ac tion. Did they do that? .. (14 50) Mr.

Findlay: As I said earlier, it is not the department's job, has not been in the past, is not in the future, to test every product. Our job is to test whether micr onutrients, as in this case, are needed by crops. As I said earlier, there are certain conditions and cert ain micron utrients needed for crops of certain soils, like copper on organic soils. It is known that is a needed micronutrient. Also known in the majority of instances, the majority of crops grown in Manitoba, there is little or no need.

That is the kind of information that the university is generating and that the department is generating so that we have an idea of whether micronutrients are needed. It is the job and the responsibility of the advocate to do the appropriate efficacy analysis to support his product. That is what he should be promoting, the efficacy information that he has generated in a balanced, scientific approach . Mr. Plohman: Well , we will see where this develops, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.

I believe the minister has not made the case that he should not have put this out before taking intermediate steps, and making statements like "dubious products" and "beware of sales pitches." It all leaves the impression that there are finaglers out there, that there are crooks out there basically trying to take advantage of unsuspecting cons umers. They were very strong statements. Every fertilizer company then could perhaps be accused of that, or anybody who sells anything could be accused of that. I do not think that is warranted until intermediate steps have been taken, and we will see what happens on that.

I wanted to get the minister's just brief outline of the soil testing lab. We had quite a discussion on the privatization that took place last year, in terms of the number of tests, the kind of tests, the price,

May 28, 19 92 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3905 the costs, and whether they were able to be done in Manitoba or elsewhere, the cost to farmers and the usage. Can the minister give us any statistical information on the operation of the lab in private hands, in terms of usage, price, and the nature of tests being done in Manitoba and employment levels at the facility?

Perhaps that is something that the minister could provide in a written form, if he does not have it at his fingertips, in terms of the tests that are being provided, the numbers, statistical comparisons between this past year and the year previous, a couple of years previous perhaps, and the costs. If we could get that information in written form, we could pursue a couple of other areas there and then move on. Mr. Findlay: The last year that the provincial lab operated, they did 7,450 samples. Last fall, the fall of '91 , Norwest was operating a lab that did 4,250.

Now, one could say, well, that is a big reduction. It is not a fair comparison, because the fall of 19 91 was a very short fall. It froze up on the 19 th of October, which meant we lost two weeks in the fall, which undoubtedly is the time when a lot of people do their soil sampling. So sampling was not done to the extent that would be called normal from the fall of 19 91 . The Norwest Lab has offered additional services that farmers want. They have offered them free sample drying,

whereas previously, the provincial lab had required that farmers dry the sample before it was sent in, or if farmers did not send it in dry, they would charge $2 for drying it, but the Norwest Lab is free sample drying. They offer free courier delivery to the lab, and they have offered faster turnaround time for samples that have been submitted to the lab. The lab is just getting itself started. Prior to the privatization of the lab, we believe that we were losing about 50 percent of the business to American labs.

We would expect Norwest to be aggressively attempting to recapture the business that has been going to American labs. The sample costs for nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium and sulfur, the province was charging $20 a sample, plus drying costs. Norwest is charging $26. For a complete with micronutrients, the province was charging $37. Norwest is charging $43. The employment component in the feed and soil lab, when the province was operating it, there were 19 full-time staff. Norwest now has 16 .75 full-time staff. Mr.

Plohman: I did not know he was finished, but if he is, can he indicate whether they are in the same facility now, and if not, where they are located and what equipment they took over from the province and what the exchange price was there for the equipment? Mr. Findlay: The feed test lab had been in the Ag Services Complex when the government owned it, and the soil test lab was in the Ellis Building at the University of Manitoba Soil Science department. The soil lab has been moved to the Ag Services Complex, so both the soil and feed labs are together now in the Ag Services Complex.

The equipment that the province owned was sold for $300,000. The university equipment that they had in the Soils Lab was retained by the university. Mr.

Plohman: Just to refresh my memory on this, I believe there was a new piece of equipment purchased just a year or two previous that enabled the lab to perform dry testing, as opposed to the wet mix testing, that this was a much faster procedure, and that this had been pur chased by the government only a few years before,! believe it was when Leonard Harapiak was the minister. * (1 500) My understanding is that this was about a million dollar piece of equipment. pnterjection] Well, this is an expensive piece of equipment, and I think that it is important that we know what was sold for $300,000.

So if the minister disagrees with that, maybe he can give us a rundown of the equipment that was sold. [interjection] No, I do not need the wheelbarrows and shovels. The minister knows what I am talking about. The member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Connery) would probably give wheelbarrows and shovels. I want the major pieces of equipment. Mr. Findlay: I can assure the member, he is way out in his million-dollar figure for the NIR computer and printer, NIR 6250. Staff will getthe exact figure, but they believe it is in the category of tens of thousands as opposed to a million, so we are substantively different.

But it is an important piece of equipment that the lab can use to attract business, particularly for feed analysis, from other jurisdictions. It is a good piece of equipment. It is reliable. It was purchased initially to do that sort of thing, and it is a good

3906 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 92 addition for the lab in terms of giving high quality service. Mr. Plohman: I will ask the minister to provide a list of equipment that was sold for the $300,000 in written form. H he will agree to that, I will move on to other issues. Mr. Findlay: We indicated to the member the other day, we would give him some information on decentral ization regarding MACC and some budgetary costs regarding MACC, associated with decentralization.

So I will pass this information out now, and the additional information on. the sales to Norwest Labs, we will get that list for the member later. Mr. Plohman: Can the minister indicate whether he can have that list to me prior to Monday's sitting or during Monday's sitting prior to the close of the Estimates? Mr. Findlay: I could answer the question if he will tell me when Estimates close for Agriculture. Mr. Plohman: Well, it is not really difficult to figure out. Monday we start at 1: 30 p.m., we have Question Period, and then at 2:30 p.m., we get to Estimates, and we go to five o'clock.

Can the minister have that information prior to five o'clock on Monday? Mr. Findlay: Yes. Mr. Edward Connery (Portage Ia Prairie) : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the number of 46.7 staff, how is that consistent with the previous three to five years in numbers in the Soils and Crops Branch? (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Findlay: Two years ago, we downsized by four staff positions. Last year, we downsized by two staff positions, but these reductions were in the soil survey area. Mr. Connery: How many positions are currently vacant, out of the 46? Mr. Findlay: Three vacancies at this time.

Mr. Connery: What positions are they in? Mr. Findlay: Of the three positions, the first one is a northern horticulturist who resigned about a month ago. The second one is a Chief of Soil and Water Management which is presently being advertised, and the third vacancy that exists at this time is a Chief of Land Planning. Mr. Connery: Are there any plans to cut other positions in the future? Mr. Findlay: Well, we are dealing with the '92-93 budget right now. There are no more reductions in this budget, and the next budget, that process has not started at this time. Mr.

Connery: Soils and Crops Branch has been moved to Carman, and are they going to be doing field testing at Carman, the provincial department? Mr. Findlay: The member asks about field testing in the Carman area. We will undoubtedly be working with the university in some fashion. They are in the process of moving their site to Carman, which will be a good opportunity for the department to work very closely with the university. The department has a number of sites for testing around the province, variety testing plots.

There are nine of them for field crops and two for forages, plus a wide variety of additional demonstration plots on various crops throughout the province. Mr. Connery: In their work with the University of Manitoba at Carman, will there be irrigation trials and crops that will be under irrigation? Mr. Findlay: At this time, decisions have not been finalized as to what work the university will do at the Carman site. We would expect it will be at least two years before they have the site fully ready to have their plots out there.

Whether there will or there will not be irrigation studies done, we cannot comment at this time. Obviously, it is something there for consideration by them. Mr. Connery: Depending on the site they would choose, is the mi nister aware that Natural Resources has quit issuing licences for irrigation out of the 'boine or Stephenfield? At this point, they have refused some licences. There could be a problem if there were to be tests that required irrigation, or crops that required irrigation, that there might not be irrigation available, or they would have to have preferential licensing to be able to irrigate.

I guess the point that I make is that they did have one testing station in Portage which the university left, not totally on their own problems, part of it with the city administration that was a little dogmatic, but I think there has been a move for some time maybe to move to Carman with the Soils. I do not know what influence there was to encourage that movement, but with the university going to Carman and the government going to Carman, there seems to be some sort of dovetailing,

May 28, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3907 and there is some concern in our area that this testing station was moved out of the Portage area. * (1 51 0) I do have some concern that this happened, and I guess maybe it is one area of rural Manitoba versus the other, but unless we lose our water through diversification of it to other areas, Portage did have the types of soils that we could irrigate and irrigation available for them. So I am somewhat concerned that the testing that the university might do in conjunction with the province might be more field-related, rather than horticultural-related crops.

Can the minister tell me where we are going with our horticultural crops, and basically in Soils and Crops-this is where horticulture is-where we are going, what thrust, what emphasis the department is putting on it because it is one of the diversification crops that, I think, if we can expand the markets, if we can bring in additional processing into this area-and at some point in time, I believe very strongly that water is going to become a bigger issue in the States, and there might be some opportunities for us to get into more processing because we do have a lot of water.

There is a lot of water going down the Assiniboine, for instance, during the spring months. About 90 percent of it goes down. I guess as a government, if we had the vision to build some retention capacity, we could irrigate a lot of land that is currently in grain that is having trouble being sold, but maybe we could see some great economic thrust for the province. In the short run and in the long run, maybe something very massive for us, and rather than importing our processed food from the United States, maybe we could be shipping some of our food down to them.

At the same time, I would hope the minister and this government would resist strongly any move to export any great volumes of commercial water outside of the Canadian borders. Mr. Findlay: There is no question that the future of Manitoba agriculture will continue to lie in the direction of diversifying into commodities for which there is an economic return at the farm gate directly from the consumer. There is no question that there is tremendous opportunity of value adding those basic food commodities to increase the value and create the jobs of processing right here in the province of Manitoba.

Then it becomes a question of accessing market, and clearly a lot of that market will have to be outside of Manitoba and some of it certainly to the south. As the member well knows, we have had some sig nificant harassments at the U.S. border, un acce ptable reasons holdin g loads up for inspection, stopping more loads than would be deemed appropriate and holding them up waiting for the results of the inspections. Those are some of the problems we have with horticultural products moving south. Certainly McCain's and Carnation in terms of processing potatoes, very significant players, have expanded.

We certainly expect them to expand some more. We are very interested in the use of water to have a better guarantee of production, no matter what the type of year is, regarding drought. Woodstone Foods in Portage, again, another good processor. We have certainly worked closely with the industry and with Western Diversification in a study that was done not too long ago in the potato industry, so we are doing all we can to be sure that the industry has an opportunity to grow.

It sometimes gets discouraging when you see the kind of border harassment that was created, is still being created, for vegetables going into the Minneapolis market. We have done some studies and integrated pest management. Some specific grants had been made working with the vegetable industry to, again, find ways and means to increase production without having to use more and more chemicals. We have been finding other more cost-efficient ways to control pests. I guess, in the vegetable industry, the horticultural industry, clearly water is a very, very big issue.

I think it is imperative that agriculture have access to enough water to be able to continue to grow and expand, both in terms of basic production and in terms of processing. In a lot of the area of southern and south-central Manitoba, it is my belief that there is basically enough water there over the course of 12 months, if properly managed over the course of that 12 months by appropriate impounding, rather than letting it disappear in the spring, and then go looking for it in the middle of the summer. The appropriate irrigation could be done, but it takes a significant management approach.

I think it is fair to say that we would like to see that process unfold in a positive sense for sourcing water for that area.

3908 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 92 The member made some mention of exporting water. Well, in agriculture, we are not interested in exporting water. We are interested in exporting the commodity grown in our land by the use of that water. There might be some water in those plants we export, but that is the way I want to see it exported. Through the Soils and Crops Branch, the Marketing Branch and our limited resources, we are doing what we can and working with the industry.

I guess it is fair to say, I am pleased with the progress made over the last 10 years, and I look forward to further progress in this direction. It is interesting to note that the assistant commissioner of Agriculture from Minnesota was up here, oh, three or four or five months ago and was wondering how we could be in the vegetable business competing with them. They are taking note of the fact that we are here, and we are becoming a competitor to them. So I think our story of a reasonable amount of success is pretty good. Mr.

Connery: A c ouple of points the minister commented on, besides the third one, which is the reason we can compete is the quality of the growers we have in Manitoba. Nevertheless, when it comes to the residue testing that the Americans are doing on our crops-and it is nontariff barrier methods that they are using to discourage us from exporting, which means that we have to be good. If we were not competitive and if we did not have the quality, they would not worry about us because we would not be going into those markets.

I would ask the minister to monitor this very closely and to give the growers every bit of assistance, even if It means retaliation. Just say to the Americans, if you test 5 percent of our loads, we will test 5 percent of your loads coming in. I can assure you that the southern states growers will be up lynching the American inspector very quickly, because that would tie up their indus try tremendously. I think we need that sort of assistance to be able to assur e our selves of that ma rket. The Minneapolis-St.

Paul market is a larger market than the three prairie provinces put together, and it is closer to us than any market in Alberta. So the opportunities there are vast. I think we have the ability to produce, and as we expand and maybe more growers come in, I think that we can get into that market much stronger. The other one is the water that the minister said is so vital to many of our crops, especially horticulture, but we see irrigation used in other crops.

I would ask the minister, if he is interested, to comment on some sort of retention capabilities on the Assiniboine or one of the major tributaries of the Assiniboine, so that indeed we could divert water to the Pembina Valley and not see the Pembina Valley and the Assiniboine River people fighting over water, when in reality, as the minister said, there is more than ample water, but it all flows down in about a six-week period. • (1 520) If we had more retention capabilities, we could divert water, and as the minister well knows, we could see flourishing activity in a greater area of southern Manitoba which would enhance our job creation, would enhance the economic activity of Winnipeg tremendously because everything goes through Winnipeg .

When it happens in rural Manitoba, it funnels in or out through Winnipeg. What is the minister's opinion on some retention capabilities on the Assiniboine River? (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Findlay: The member is probably aware of the fact that there is a grant in place right now from Rural Development to the Central Plains Task Force to look at the management of the water along the whole Assiniboine River.

As I said earlier, my own personal feeling is that there is enough water in the region over the course of 12 months to adequately satisfy a lot more need than is presently being satisfied.

There needs to come out of that study, or any other analysis that can be done, some kind of pros and cons regarding various types of water retention, whether we are talking a big dam here, a big dam there or whether we are talking numerous small retention units on the main rivers or on the tributaries to control the release of water down the tributaries or down the river over the course of the summer, so that the right amount of water is in the right place at the right time for all the users, whether it is for domestic, or municipal, or for irrigation or whatever it is for.

There certainly is an analysis going on right now by the Agassiz irrigators association trying to come up with ways and means of managing the water in the Pembina Valley area. They are probably going to bring forth some proposals as to how it could be

May 28, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3909 managed properly to achieve some degree of irrigation in there over time. There are a lot of studies going on, and as the Minister of Agriculture, I strongly promote the use of water for agricultural production, because it is our limiting factor in many regions of the province. If you cannot manage the water in a fashion to promote increased agricultural production, I think it is imperative, as a small province wanting to grow economically and in terms of jobs, that we must do it.

I am not a proponent of any one particular way, but I am a proponent of all the players coming to the table and negotiating the best approach for all concerned, so that nobody is disadvantaged by somebody else's access to water. I believe there is enough water. Certainly, we have the capacity to manage it, so that all concerned have a reasonable access to water to do what they can do to promote the agricuhural economy in this province. Mr. Connery: I appreciate the fact that the minister would have some difficulty in saying yes or no to specifics, and I appreciate that.

That is more of a caucus decision, or of cabinet. I see the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) here, who comes from the Pembina region. I hope through him and yourself and other people that we can convince the provincial government to look at greater water retention and not let it all run through into the Nelson River prematurely. The study that the Central Plains Water Task Force is doing is not one really to do with dams; it is whether or not there is enough water to allow for the diversion into the Pembina Valley without water retention.

At a scoping meeting on Tuesday night, we tried to have that to be included in the discussion and als o to have the Cl ean Envir onment Commission, when that meeting is finally convened, also look at: If there is not enough water, then what is the way to do it? I hate to be fighting with friends over water, and yet a wise old sage said: Water is not to be drank; it is to be fought over. [interjection] Unfortunately, that-Mark Twain, oh, great. See? That shows you the university education versus somebody who got behind the plow too early. Nevertheless, it is true.

We fight over water very quickly, and it is so precious that is why it happens. Those of us on the Assiniboine going through 19 88 and '89 are absolutely convinced that there is not enough water to do a diversion even though it is 20 cfs. There could be 15 0 running down the Assiniboine, and you think it is not very much, but even with 15 0 cfs, it is pretty difficult to get the water out of a big, wide river. There is not enough there to work at.

So even PFRA, in 19 89, were bulldozing and digging to try to get the water to their pumping stations on the Allum, La Salle and Mill Creek, because the pumps were shutting off on low flows. The water was not getting there. Growers were digging holes in the bottom of the Assiniboine, digging channels to their pumps, because there was not enough water for them to be able to pump. So even right now, without a diversion of any additional water, there is a shortage of water on the Assiniboine under severe conditions. That is the only time you have to be concerned, is when it is under severe conditions.

So I hope that we would see this government move in what I would consider the logical way. As I have mentioned before, and I would like to put on the record, in today's dollars, the Red River Floodway, part of the Shellmouth and part of the Portage diversion would be somewhere around $300 million. If we take a look at rural Manitoba being 40 percent of the population, in realistic terms, we could spend $200 million on rural Manitoba to do the reverse, to provide water.

Of course, in the '50s and '60s, the regime at that time was to get rid of wate r-we had too much-although they said, for $9 million, they could have built, instead of doing the Portage diversion, the Holland dam in the early '60s; $9 million was a lot of money then, but it is pretty small potatoes today. That is what happens if we do not have water. We have small potatoes. So I really do encourage the minister to support us in our thrust and not have farmers fighting over water.

We are concerned that as the Assiniboine River is low, we will see greater movement out of the Assiniboine Delta Aquifer, which is under Carberry, because it is what really supplies anywhere from 15 0 to 250 cfs into the Assiniboine River. After the water leaves Brandon, it is pretty low, but we pick up that sort of volume at Portage, which indicates that is the volume being supplied by the Assiniboine Delta Aquifer.

3910 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 92 We have to also be cautious that we do not use the Shellmouth as a reservoir and forget about the original intent, for flood protection, and then cause damage to those people close to Russell or just downstream from the Shellmouth dam and cause them extra problems.

As the minister might know, this year-and I do not criticiz&-the department officials of Natural Resources released a large volume of water out of the Shellmouth because the snow was on the ground, the snow pack was there, and had we had a normal melt, there would have been a lot of water running into the Shellmouth. As it turned out, at three and four degrees a day, the water melted very slowly and soaked in. Now, they did have the other stroke of luck that there was a late snow which then added to the water and allowed the Shellmouth to be-seeing as it is within two and a half feet of being full at this point.

Ali i am saying in this case is that we are dealing with best guess, and that is not being critical of people. They have to best guess, but we cannot forecast the weather accurately, so we have to be very careful what we do. * (1 530) One other area that comes under, I am not sure if it is Soils and Crops, but to do with labour and the Labour department-the labour side deals with our sector, so I guess it can appropriately be discussed here. Ken Martens and Morris Deveson have been involved with us in our labour negotiations and working with the federal government in developing adequate labour source.

Now, I do not know how busy those two gentlemen have been with other things, but today our labour situation in dealing with the federal government is chaotic, disastrous and just a mess. The federal bureaucrats have been, in my estimation, absolutely irresponsible in their approach. We are talking about free trade with Mexico, and horticulture is one of the crops that will be affected first, yet they are trying to force wages up at high rates, faster than what is in the real world, more or le ss dictatorially doing this, putting sever e restrictions on us in some of the dealings, and also with our day haul.

There is a large day haul from some of the Indian reserves to work in the vegetable fields, and there are some pretty good sources of labour from these Indian reserves. The federal government in the past has put in a day haul program to pay for the busing. The employees had to pay part of it, but it was the federal government and employees that funded it. Now the federal government is saying, we are phasing this out, and if you, the farmers, do not pick up the slack over the next three years and pay for the federal share of the busing, then there will not be a busing program.

Well, there is only so much money in growing a crop, and we have to be more competitive with Mexico. It gets to the point where any money we might make will be paid in busing, so we might as well eliminate that crop. That leaves workers sitting on the reserve, drawing, now, welfare, instead of working and paying income tax, UIC and CPP benefits. So we do not see the value of the federal government, in their wisdom-or stupidity, whichever it is-that they are really affecting anything of an economic benefit for themselves.

But it is the continuous offloading, whether It be on the provincial government or whether it be on individual businesses, that is the problem we are having. The federal bureaucrats whom we have to deal with in Winnipeg are just absolutely impossible to talk to. It is their way or the highway. There is no way of even negotiating with them. We might be forced this year to look to other sources of labour than what we had. That is unfortunate because we have had people working with us for many, many years.

They, because of their distance from their work, which is about an hour and 15 minutes drive, cannot afford to pay for it, and the growers cannot afford to pay for it all alone. So we are caught in a Catch-22 in this situation. I would hope that the min ister, through his department, through Morris Deveson and Ken Martens, might get back and get seriously involved and try to get some resolve to the problem. This situation is coming up very quickly, where we will be needing these employees. Some of them are coming in now for the asparagus cut, but the big numbers come in when the other crops start to be harvested.

We will see a lot of Manitobans not working if some of these crops are cut out. Because of the economy, at some point in time, we grow it at least to break even, and preferably make a profit. But if you cannot do that, then you might as well eliminate that crop and eliminate the labour. So I would hope that the minis ter would be in touch with his

May 28, 19 92 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 391 1 personnel and get them actively involved again to try to resolve the impasse that we think is there. Mr. Findlay: Well, certainly, over the past period of time, officials have attempted to discuss with federal officials the situation as it was unfolding and the federal attempt to withdraw from the day haul program and changing some of the wage schedules that were being proposed from the federal government. We have written letters to federal ministers. We have not had what we would call adequate response from either of those two avenues at this point in time.

I can assure the member, we will continue to attempt to negotiate a better response from the federal people who tend to want to continually withdraw and have the grower or the employee paying the bills. I can assure him that we understand the problem. It is not a new problem, it has been ongoing, it is not getting any better. We would hope that the objective has always been, you grow these crops, you create jobs. I would like to see the jobs filled by Manitobans to the best of our ability. I know that a lot of Mexican labour is used, too. It is good labour, it can be brought in and effectively get the job done.

I am sure that they like the income they receive at the same time. We are aware of it and continue to work on it. We are not in control of it, and the federal response has not been very adequate at this point in time. Mr. Connery: Just as a final comment, and maybe I do not know if the minister has shared some of this information with some of the staff, but I know staff read Hansard. Very quickly the other people know if I have made comment or not It is all over the province, but that is good.

If they are reading it, I would hope they would understand-and this is typical of the vegetable industry, so it is not our farm in particular, but I cannot talk about other people's business-on our farm we have a payroll projected for this year of $1 ,1 00,000 from less than a

section of land. When you take a look at what we could do from an economic factor if we had more acres of land, instead of grain, growing diversified crops. There are a lot of others that do not have the same impact, but we are going to the extreme. Besides the income tax and the CPP and those sorts of taxes that are collected, $300,000 off less than a

section of land in terms that go to governments in one form or another. Those are very significant numbers, and I use these numbers to indicate to staff that this industry and industries coming down the ladder all have a tremendous economic impact, so when we diversify out of the grains, that we get into something that creates a major, major economic activity, great labour people. In the vegetable industry, it is not just strictly summer. We employ at least 30 people, 35 people year-round when you are packing and shipping all winter, so it is not just those temporary three-month jobs that everybody talks about.

Some of them are, but there are some very long-term jobs. I would hope the department and the minister and the government would speed up or put more pressure or pay more attention to the diversification side of any crop that will return more income to the province through better value, and also to see if we cannot move to more processing of these crops, rather than shipping them out in the raw form, that they be shipped out in a processed form. One of our growers in Portage has been shipping carrots through the year to Texas and they would pay a premium for the carrots because of the quality.

These are people who are in the little carrot-stick business, the little pieces that people eat raw, and of course the flavour is so prominent in the raw form, you can really tell the difference. The carrot quality is so much better in Manitoba than Texas carrots that they would ship them from Manitoba to Texas when they have lots of carrots for their specialty markets. Those are the sorts of things that I think in conjunction with the Marketing Branch that we can develop a lot mo re mar kets out of there .

I appreciate a lot of the things the minister has done for us and has reacted, and yet at the same time 1 am stRI soliciting a little more action where it is possible. Mr. Findlay: Well, there is no question that there is always more to be done. I believe there is great opportunity in the vegetable horticulture area in this province. We have the soil, we have the climate, we certainly have the expertise on the part of growers.

We have many quality products that we produce and learned how to produce and they increase the processing of them here in the province, and the success that has been had in the Minneapolis market has not been by chance or by luck. It has been because a quality product was put in there. The other situation, of course, is timeliness. The buyer wants it there when he ordered it there, and if it is held up for two days or six days at the border,

3912 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 92 that harasses the ability of the Manitoba grower to supply a market on a timely basis with a quality product. He has met one criterion, but he has been forced to fail in the other, so it is a substantive problem, but I do think that some of those problems are resolvable over time, and we will keep up the pressure.

I can assure the member that I have raised this cross-border harassment on vegetables and pork at numerous federal ministers' meetings and everybody agrees, but the follow-up action through the Minister of Trade is not as strong as I would like to see happen. • (1 540) We have also negotiated directly with the Minister of Trade, and they are not giving the kind of attention to the resolution I would like to see happen. So we will continue to work on it and, as I say, we constantly talk about the quality products that we produce and we do not bow our heads when talking about competing with anybody.

We can do it very, very well. Just give us a level playing field and we will do very well. The question of water and allowing the producers to have access to reasonably priced water is critical to our survival in the future, and it kind of appalls me at times when I see people that object to the proper management of water just for the sake of objecting. It is not going to be constructive for the province or the citizens of this province to not look at the use of water in a more objective and responsible fashion than what I hear coming from some quarters in this province at this time.

The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Item 2.(

d) Soils and Crops Branch:

(1) Salaries, $1, 984,2 00- pass;

(2) Other Expendit u res, $682,800-pass. 2.(

e) Technical Services and Training Branch. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. BonHace) : Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, in Salaries, the reason is given for the reduction of six head office, engineering, for various services which can be provided by the private sector. Can the minister indicate in what way is the private sector, and if it has been successful in having the private sector providing these services? Mr. Findlay: A year ago in the last budget we reduced our staff component by fiVe engineering positions.

They left our employ in about December, I believe-October of '91 , and in the past we have had em ploy ees who have moved from the department into the private sector. When we are talking about drafting plans for buildings, whether it was hog barns or chicken barns, I mean, that has always been available in the private sector. Uke, Lewis and Hodgins are two of the former staff members who are in the private sector now and doing a very good job.

At least, they got their training with us and going out and using that training to earn a pretty good living, but we still have five engineers in the employ of the department, four in the regions and one In head office, doing this specific engineering work that the department needs. So the positions that we basically reduced are ones where the private sector has been performing in the past and continues to perform. Some of our employees are in that private sector performing those tasks. Mr.

Gaudry: You are saying that the five who were laid off or let go last October of '91 have taken jobs in the private sector or have gone themselves into the business of supplying this kind of services in the community? Mr. Findlay: I am just saying that there are two people in particular we can think of who have gone over time. The five positions we removed, I can maybe get some clarification as to where they are at this time. Of the five we referred to, the chief engineer is now relocated with the Department of Highways. Two tech nici ans are both placed in other government departments.

One position was vacant because the person who was in that position had gone to work with Hydro prior to the elimination of that position, and secondly, another one resigned and is working with private industry, and that is Mr. Booy. Mr. Gaudry: Of the 33 staff that you have left in the department, were there any of those who were decentralized in your program of decentralization? Mr. Findlay: In terms of the positions the member is referring to, none were decentralized in the past year, but we are in the process of moving three positions to Carman. Mr.

Gaudry: Have these employees agreed to relocate in Carman, or will you be looking at them being transferred to another department? Mr. Findlay: Of the three, one position is vacant, one has agreed to go, and one has been redeployed to another government department. Mr. Gaudry: The position that is vacant at this time, is it being advertised?

May 28, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3913 Mr. Findlay: It is not advertised at this time. Mr. Gaudry: The one that is from the vacant position, has he been transferred to another department or has he quit? Mr. Findlay: The position is vacant because of retirement about a year and a half ago. Mr. Gaudry: You will be filling the vacancy very shortly or in the near future? Mr. Findlay: We will be determining that in due course. Mr. Gaudry: The other reduction of one entomology position, you are saying that the entomology unit will merge with the Soils and Crops Branch on June 15 , 19 92.

What was the purpose of merging entomology with Soils and Crops? Mr. Findlay: It was just deemed appropriate, that it would be more efficient to have all the pest control related people in one department, and it is more efficient for producers to communicate with those people, all in one branch of the department. Mr. Gaudry: Yes, what happened to this one em ploy ee? Was he transferred to another department, or was he laid off with a severance package? Mr. Findlay: He was offered another comparable position in Gladstone which he has turned down, and he Is now on the Redeployment List. Mr.

Gaud ry : Yes , in the Gra nts/Transfer Payments, there is a decrease of $20,000. Is this because you foresee fewer requests in regard to grants and transfer payments? Mr. Findlay: Yes, of the approximately $20,000 reduction-! think it is $1 9,000 to be exact that the member is talking about-$1 4,000 is a reduction to PAMI, Prairie Agricultural Machinery Institute, and there was a $5,000 reduction to agricultural society fairs. The money was transferred from a grant to a nongrant category but still used for agricultural societies. A (1 550) The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Item 4.(

e) Technical Services and Training Branch: (1 ) Salaries $1 ,466,300. Mr. Plohman: There are a lot of issues that we have to go into, other areas. I note the member has asked, I understand, from talking to my colleagues, about the six head office engineering positions that have been eliminated here, and that is the reason for the staff reduction, the primary reason. Is there any further reduction planned in the engin eering sect ion, Mr. Acting Depu ty Chairperson? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, no additional reductions are planned at this time. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Item 4.(

e) Technical Services and Training Branch: (1 ) Sal aries $1 ,466, 300-pass ;

(2) Othe r Expenditures $958,900-pa ss;

(3) Agricultural Societies $421 ,200. Mr. Plohman: Just a question. Are there any changes in there? I see the total dollars are the same. Have there been any reclassifications of grants within that or juggling, or is it basically that all ag societies are receiving the same amount that they did in the previous year? Mr. Findlay: Agricultural Societies grants cover building grants which each ag society applies for. It usually runs around $1 1 0,000.

Fairs, prize money is usually around $230,000; Keystone agriculture recreation centre in Brandon, around $75,000; judges' grants, 4-H dinner club activities and memberships, Manitoba Light Horse Association, Agricultural Hall of Fame and other activities. It is quite a long list. We can supply the member with the list of the various expenditures in all those categories totalling $421 ,200. Mr. Plohman: I was not thinking about the categories as much as the list of the societies that receive grants under this

section and the total amounts that, say, the Dauphin Ag Society or the Grandview-Gilbert Plains ag society and so on. I do not feel the minister, unless he insists on it, has to read these into the record. It is simply a matter of having that sheet with those, if it comes in a nice package, of a sheet which lists all of the societies which receive grants. Mr. Findlay: Are you referring to building grants or fair grants or judges' grants? I will remind the member, there are a lot of ag societies, a lot of different grants.

It varies from year to year, depending what they apply for, particularly in the building grant or what they qualify on a judges' grant, depending on what kind of prizes they offer in their fair book, so it varies.

391 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 92 Mr. Plohman: If the minister could just give us a list of all of the ag societies and the amount they will receive in '92. Mr. Findlay: Okay, the list in '92. I guess it is fair to say that building grants have been decided, but for the prize money it will not be determined until after they have sent in their information, after the fair is held this summer. It will not be available for many months, so to clarify what the member would like. Mr. Plohman: I would like to see all of the total grant that they get this year.

If the minister cannot give us all of that at this time, then we will get it at a later time when it is completed. I would like it also compared with '91 , so it would be clear as to whether '91 and '92 have any changes. Mr. Findlay: Okay, basic, the total is the same for the two years, but we will break it down in what categories and what we can give, what is available at this time for the '92-93 years. Is that what you would like? Mr. Plohman: Yes, compared to '91 -92. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose} : Item 4.(

e) Technical Services and Training Branch:

(3) Agricultural Societies $421 ,200-pass. 4.(

f) Marketing Branch: (1 ) Salaries $368,300. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the minister has indicated a number of initiatives in this area in the additional information that has been provided, and of course we could go into all of those. I note it identifies an initiative to provide assistance in marketing activities in conjunction with marketing boards, producer associations and agriculture and food industries. I would like the minister to have an opportunity to elaborate on the action that he took with regard to the producers of potatoes for processing.

I understand the manufacturing producers, some 12 0 or so, had undertaken a vote I believe two years ago, perhaps it was February of '89. I think the minister mentioned that date in the House. They wanted to form an organization to deal specifically with the establishment of their agreement with such companies as McCain's and Carnation and so on. The information that I have received is that they had voted 68 percent in favour of having that. The minister refused to establish that mechanism. He calls it a price-setting mechanism.

I alluded to it being somewhat in the form of a marketing board in that it had the function of negotiating as a collective for the organizations. However, the minister may choose to call it something else and that is fine. The principle is what I am concerned about, and I understand that 68 percent voted in favour. This minister did not approve of that agency being established, instead chose to-1 understand here from the companies that were involved and perhaps assisted in some negotiations.

In any event he says that they arrived at an agreement that was the best that they had up to that point and he feels quite successful about it, but that was not the point I was raising. I am sure the minister will elaborate on that aspect of it. The point that we were raising was why the minister did not respond in a positive way to a demo cratic decision that was made by the producers of potatoes for processing? * (1 600) Mr. Findlay: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the potato industry in this province has grown very, very well over many years.

There are people who produce for the table market and they are under the Vegetable Producers' Ma rketing Bo ard. Processing potatoes that are grown under contract are not covered by the Vegetable Producers' Marketing Board, but any potatoes that are not grown under contract for processing tend to technically fall under the jurisdiction of the marketing board. Processing potato producers have developed an industry over many, many years. Keystone vegetable association has been their spokesbody and has each year negotiated the contracts for the producers with the two processors, McCain's and Carnation.

I talked earlier about growth in this industry and water being one of the critical limiting factors. We have had growth, and I would like to see more growth. We have a world-renowned potato French fry produced in Manitoba, something to do with the climate and the soil and so on that gives it the special flavour, and we have been very successful in that regard. We have seen growth in the processing of potatoes here in the province. We have seen growth in production.

There was a point in time when there was a fair bit of frustration between the Keystone vegetable association and the processors with regard to prices and timing of setting that contract each year, somewhat similar I guess to the sugar beet growers

May 28, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3915 association in negotiating, on behalf of their growers, a contract with the one processor in this province. Negotiations always get fairly intense as the growing season gets closer and closer. When the processors had to vote, that was because they were frustrated with the ability to finalize negotiations to their satisfaction. I had numerous meetings involving the growers and the processors, trying to get them to come together across the table so that they could both agree that the best contract was struck for both parties.

I did not think that a marketing board was a magical answer for either side, and as a result of that prolonged discussion over several months they did strike a two-year contract. That two-year contract is now up, and they have struck an additional one-year contract, to my understanding, to the satisfactions of all parties involved. My interest in looking at it is to be sure that the two sides can effectively and properly negotiate with each other to the satisfaction of all concerned, and for me the satisfaction is to see the industry grow in terms of more production and more processing.

As a result of that discussion I think some of the antagonism that did exist between the processors and the growers association was reduce d substantially, and at the end of the day there was no longer a need to, as far as I am aware, set up a marketing board for that process or price-setting structure because they effectively accomplished it in a negotiating process and have continued to be able to do that since that was done. What the vote did was bring the issue to a head, and I intervened as an intermediary attempting to have a negotiated resolution so both sides understood each other.

I think I was successful in doing that because, as I said, a two-year contract was struck and now a subsequent one-year contract has been struck and the industry continues to grow. I will have to acknowledge there was considerable frustration there. We did the best we could to resolve it through a negotiation with all parties around the table, putting all the facts out on the table. I think the growers are satisfied in that process that the processors backed off some of their very strong demands that they had put forward initially.

I think the discussion came to a reasonable, responsible conclusion for all concerned. Mr. Plohman: Is the minister suggesting that had he agreed to the democratic decision of the producers that would have led to further antagonism as opposed to a mechanism that could have worked quite nicely for the producers? Mr. Findlay: My sense is that there was frustration between the two sides because maybe they had not talked things out adequately and properly.

I had a sense that, if the marketing board was put in and the processors got upset with that, instead of expanding their processing here in the province, they may end up actually reducing it. We wanted to see the industry grow. I want to see more and more acres of processing potatoes in this province, because we have the producers, we have the soil, we have the climate and we have the water, over the Assinibolne Delta Aquifer in particular, in order to do this.

I was very clearly convinced that the heavy handed approach would not lead to any positive expansion of that industry in the future, either in production or processing. Mr. Plohman: Is the minister saying that the companies told him that they would cut back in their presence in the province of Manitoba, if he agreed to this mechanism? Mr. Findlay: They did not tell me that, but that was the tone of the discussions in the early stages. We had the major players here from eastern Canada on several occasions.

Several letters were written back and forth, and I think some of their strong demands or heavy-handed situations that they might have had on the table initially were withdrawn, reduced and modified to such that the growers felt that they could effectively negotiate across the table as relative equals for the two-year contract that was put in place and for the subsequent one-year contract. And I say, it is no different than the sugar beet growers association negotiating for their growers with one processing company.

I think, for the good of all involved, and its potential expansion and continued expansion of the industry, the right resolution was obtained, without one side feeling that the other side harmed them in an ongoing fashion. Mr. Plohman: From the minister's perspective, I guess he feels the right decision was made because it was the one that he favoured. I do not know how the minister could say that there could be a reduction in the presence-( mean the minister has made some pretty strong points about the uniqueness of Manitoba's climate and soils, soil

391 6 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 92 cond�tions, whatever it is that results in such good qual ity potatoes - water, soi l, enviro nmen t climate-particularly for fries, I guess. Manitoba h� that, and that would not be taken away because there was a marketing board set up for these producers. The desire of McCain's and Carnation to continue to operate and expand in Manitoba is because they can make money doing it, not because they just love Manitoba, or because it is a nice place to live or to work or to establish.

I believe we had something they wanted, and the minister can refute that if he wishes. I would like to hear him do so as to whether there was any real threat of a reduction in their presence. As a matter of fact, it is something that would have grown in Manitoba regardless of whether the producers had been able to get together in a stronger collective position for negotiating their contracts. * (1 61 0) Mr. Findlay: It is my feeling that the producers have a strong negotiating position with the companies on an ongoing basis.

We formalized that in a more positive sense than existed before the several months of negotiations commenced. Maybe that member would like to try, but you cannot force a processor to open his doors and operate here if he chooses not to. Even if he operates here, you cannot force him to buy Manitoba potatoes, and they were trucking in Alberta potatoes. You cannot force things. The world just does not operate that way. Maybe his ideology is that you can force people; mine is not. You negotiate something that both sides can live with, and then there is harmony and then there is growth.

That is the only way you are going to see development in this province. That is the way agriculture has been developed for many, many years, and it is a positive thing to see our commodities processed here. If you are going to start forcing people, you are going to end up with less activity here in terms of jobs, I can guarantee the member. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the reason the minister says he can guarantee it is-he is saying that these letters, which he has not tabled for our information, or shared publicly, were worded as such, and I am not going to ask him to table them now either.

But I think it would be very interesting to see what the companies were saying in terms of the response to what the producers were wanting at that time. It would be something the minister probably would be well advised to share if he wanted to make his position clear. I think what we are simply saying is that the producers would deserve or need an equal playing field with the companies. That is all they were asking. They were not trying to antagonize by having that vote. The mini ster seems to construe that as antagonizing the companies and trying to shove something down their throat or force or dictate.

I do not know why he arrives at that kind of an

interpretation of them forming a board that would negotiate on their behalf. I cannot understand the minister saying that. He characterizes it as dictation and forcing these companies in a certain way. 1 think it simply would have meant that they would have been able to negotiate from a level playing field, from a position of strength. That was what they were looking for at that time. As the minister understands it, what exactly were they asking for, and how did they intend to accomplish it with the results of their vote? What did they want to see happen as opposed to what the minister says is now happening?

Just before the minister answers, I understand they wanted a contract, like the sugar beet producers, before they plant. They wanted an early contract so they knew exactly what their contracts were ahead of time. Is that essentially what they wanted? Mr. Findlay: Essentially what they wanted was a contract signed by a specified date or a process negotiation to go through various stages by specified dates, which has been accomplished. Mr. Plohman: How was this accomplished, and how would it have been accomplished?

How was it accomplished by the method that the minister preferred, since it has been accomplished, versus what would have been the established procedure under what the producers were asking for at the time? What is the difference? Mr. Findlay: I can tell the member that there has been, I guess, confrontational situations happening in other jurisdictions. Alberta, we think it might have been in 1986 when the sugar beet company just shut her down for a year, and

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-74
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 74.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	174538970fe2a715b601a91dc435494c6b76a52e

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