May 14,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLIII No. 8

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Oral Questions

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today my questions are for the Premier. On March 25th in this

House I asked the Premier if college campuses around this Province, such as Bell

Island, Springdale, and Port aux Basques were going to close and the Premier did

not respond, but the Minister of Education said that the process this year was

no different from any other year. He said: `There is no particular crisis this

year,' and just one month later, on April 29th, the minister announced the

closure of five college campuses and the elimination of first-year university

courses at all but one of the locations across this Province. I ask the Premier,

if he agrees with his minister that there is no particular crisis in

post-secondary education this year?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I am in full agreement with

the actions that have been taken by the Minister of Education. The Minister of

Education, as have all ministers, has had to deal with a Budget situation which

will be made clear on Thursday when the Minister of Finance brings down his

Budget. The government has had to come to grips with a deficit which is

approaching the $290 or $300 million and every department is going to have to

participate, and indeed every agency of government participate, in dealing with

that Budget deficit.

The Minister of Education, when he became aware of the full

extent of the Budget deficit this year, as did all other ministers of the

government, went back and revisited proposals for the Budget which will be

forthcoming on Thursday, and brought forward measures which had to be announced

because of requirements of the union contract in advance of the Budget date. The

member opposite is an experienced member and he understands that. He understands

the collective bargaining process. He brought it forward clearly, without

hesitation, and without delay.

Some members on this side will say he brought it forward too

quickly and perhaps might have taken a little more time, that is, the government

as a whole, to consult, but unfortunately, once the decisions were made late in

the week, given the requirement for consultation and notice given to the unions,

he brought forward an announcement which represents the best judgement of the

department, the best judgement of educators in this Province, and the best

judgement of managers of our education system within this Province.

I would hope that the member opposite, who has been speaking

frequently, and I believe with some authority on the question of the need for

fiscal responsibility, would do more than simply set out a series of objections

to the need to live with tough decisions and fiscal requirements but would set

out his policy as well.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier knew and the minister knew a month earlier there

was a $230 million shortfall. That was in the pre-budget consultative document.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: The same Premier said that we cannot cut,

cut, cut our way back to prosperity. Do those words sound familiar? I ask the

Premier.

Now, Mr. Premier, I know how important the consultative

process is to you. Would you please tell me which departmental officials, which

college officials and which members in your caucus you consulted before making

this decision on post-secondary education?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I continue to believe that

you cannot cut, cut, cut your way to prosperity. I continue to believe it is

important for a government to have a program for economic growth and that is why

this government is going to proceed exactly to implement the program that we put

before the people of Newfoundland and Labrador in the last election.

At the time of the last election, we said the next two to

three years are going to be difficult years for the Province. We said we will

have to maintain a sound fiscal position and we said because of the difficulty

that could be anticipated - which has been forecast by everybody for the last

number of years - it would be important to select a number of areas of growth

and to see growth occur in those areas, those areas are tourism - the member is

well aware of the program we put forward - those areas are the information

technology industry, knowledge-based and information-based industries, those

areas are aquaculture. We continue to say that those commitments we have given

with respect to growth and investments in those areas will be kept.

Now, the member asked, in his question: `Does the Premier

remember these words?' Well let me ask the member, does he remember -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: Does he remember these words: `A P.C.

Government will balance the Budget over four years. The next two years will be

difficult ones for the Province; however, there is much to be optimistic about

the future.' In that regard, I agree with the P.C. Blue Book, the Right Agenda

for the People, but in that regard only.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: A decision on post-secondary education that

is so fundamental for a better tomorrow should only be made after a thorough

analysis and a long-term plan is completed. Now, would the Premier provide to

this House the plan upon which these decisions have been made?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

With respect to the plan, it is clear that part of the

announcement in which we unfortunately had to let the people of the Province

know and let the people in the college system know, both employees and students

who have to try to make some alternate accommodations for next year, that the

plan clearly is to see at the college system, the five boards collapsed into one

board for the whole of the Province and that board, mandated immediately to

review all of the course offerings and options for every geographic region of

the Province; to look at the current status of each of the remaining nineteen

campuses that offer educational opportunities, Mr. Speaker, to post-secondary

students in all regions of the Island and through Labrador. And they will be

reporting back very quickly so that people will know, not as part of the Budget

exercise next year but before that, where it is, that those people who will

advise the government as to what the options should be into the future for

post-secondary education at the college level, will be able to present a plan

with respect to program offerings and actual site locations; so that there is a

good distribution balance of the trades type of training that goes on, as well

as the basic skills training for literacy upgrading that goes on, as well as

opportunities for some version, Mr. Speaker, of a first-year university

equivalency that might be extended to more areas of the Province rather than be

reduced immediately from the four or five areas where it was currently

available.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a

supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What the minister has told us is that they made a decision

and then they are going to come up with a plan. That's what he said. If this is

the type of Liberal planning we are going to see for the next four years, then

God help us in Newfoundland and Labrador, I say.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Now, to the Premier.

Previous governments have decentralized the post-secondary

college system in this Province making it accessible to rural Newfoundlanders

and Labradorians. Aren't you, Premier, now turning your back on the people of

rural Newfoundland and denying them equal opportunity to a post-secondary

education?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition

is doing what we would expect the Leader of the Opposition to do, and that is,

to begin today, the first day the House is back, and to set the stage for

opposing every single fiscal measure the government will take. And I will make a

prediction, Mr. Speaker: whatever is contained within the Budget, given the

backdrop, whatever is contained, the Leader of the Opposition will oppose.

Now, the Leader of the Opposition has run recently in an

election campaign and has run behind a platform which says that the next two

years will be difficult ones for the Province. That is a direct quote from the

PC policy handbook.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: It says a PC government will balance the

books over the next four years.

I want to say to the Leader of the Opposition, it is not only

his right, it is his responsibility on behalf of the people he represents in the

Legislature, to critique the initiatives of the government, to critique the

Budget when it is brought down; but I say to him, it is also his obligation to

bring forward his plan, as the Leader of the Opposition, and I say simply

expressing outrage in the face of reality is not a responsible approach at this

time in the life of the development of the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, we have a plan and solutions, and that would be complete

consultation, not with just some of the stakeholders out there but with

everybody, a plan you promised and did not deliver on.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: And if you want to follow our blueprint or

plan instead of your own, why don't you resign and let somebody else do the job

that they set out?

The implementation of first-year university courses has

enabled all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to access education at a reasonable

price, and students in those areas across this Province have performed above

average on first-year university courses. Education is the key to our future,

and why are you, Premier, putting heavy financial burdens on our youth and

preventing them from obtaining an education here in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Again, we share the view of anybody who

would express the view that education is the key to the future of the Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador, and we share the view that good quality education

must be accessible to all of our people to the greatest extent that government

can afford to provide it; there is no question about that. The issue then

becomes, given the means that are available to the Government of Newfoundland

and Labrador - more to the point, given the means that are available to the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador - where best do we expend the dollars that

are there? Where do we use the revenues that are forthcoming?

We all know in this House - we cannot duck it - that

Newfoundland and Labrador has been spending anywhere between $300 million, and

last year $100 million, more each year than we are bringing in. We all know that

we have the highest per capita debt in Canada. We all know that we are the

highest taxed people in Canada. We all know that the exercise of simply trying

to shave the ice cube without developing new wealth in this Province has not

cured that problem. Through successive administrations of both political stripes

in this House, and our friend in the NDP has not had a chance yet to test his

own plan in government - perhaps one day he will - but in the meantime that is

reality, and the objective today, for anybody who wants the responsibility of

government, is not to avoid the hard truths, but rather to be prepared to make

the difficult choices. It is not easy to make these choices. They aren't without

cost or consequence for people, but they have to be made. In the meantime,

rather than being overwhelmed by the size of the problem, we have to get on with

the business of government and get on with the business of growing this economy

by selecting a number of areas where growth is possible.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The area where we

have seen growth, I say to the Premier, is in the size of the Cabinet, in

$100,000 new jobs being created, in the Premier scooting off to Bristol during

budget debate here in the House. I ask the Premier, in our college system now

will there be a fair competition for all senior positions within the entire

college system, or will we see more blatant nepotism and political appointments?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite wants to

talk about the size of the Cabinet. The size of the Cabinet the last time that

party held power was either twenty-three or twenty-four members. That is the

record, as opposed to sixteen today on this side of the House. Five

parliamentary assistants, three or four -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER TOBIN: Sorry, what was that? Did you put that on

the public record at the time? I don't recall it? Where can you point to? Look,

let me say this to the Leader of the Opposition. This can become -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, this debate in the House can

either become the very predictable exchange back and forth, and I've worked and

operated from that side of the House in a different role in Opposition. Now I

have the challenge and the responsibility on this side of the House. This can

all be very predictable for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, this

exchange across the floor, or we really can do something a little more

challenging which is to have an exchange of ideas about where we go from here in

this Province. I would hope we would rise to the occasion and have a better

exchange than simply a predictable partisan exchange back and forth.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct this

question to the hon. the Premier, and I would like to also change the colour of

the book from blue to red. On page 67 of the Liberal red book it states in bold

print: "The new Liberal government is committed to dialogue and discussion on

all elements of implementing educational reform before decisions are made."

My question to the Premier is, where have these discussions

taken place? When have these discussions taken place, and with whom, with

respect to aspects of educational reform in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would invite the member to

not read just one passage from page 67 of the Liberal platform document. I would

invite him to read the whole section. Because if he reads the whole

section what

he will see very clearly is a commitment - he would like an answer, I know, and

I'm trying to provide one - which says very clearly: "The people have spoken.

Educational reform will proceed."

The document then goes on to point out that there are a

number of areas where on the broad question of educational reform, which is the

question which was before the people in a referendum last year, which is the

subject of an amendment which is now before the House of Commons which I expect

will be tabled this week - certainly my hope is it will be tabled this week -

and dealt with before the House of Commons rises this summer, there is specific

reference - I would now advise him to go to page 68 - in which we say that there

are a number of areas in which parents have expressed a concern with respect to

the organization of primary and secondary schools across the Province.

It says with respect to school viability rules, no new school

viability rules will be implemented until such time as there has been public

consultation across the Province with respect to the impact and the make-up of

those new school viability rules.

The second matter in question, which was very clear during

the election campaign and which is also clearly spelled out in the document, if

he reads the full document, is on the question of school busing and school

busing times. We said in the document there would be no change there unless and

until we had had a chance to test those new proposals against the litmus test of

public opinion and public scrutiny and common sense.

Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to be able to tell the member, and

I'm glad he has asked the question, that the Minister of Education indeed has

put forward or brought forward a plan which will be made public in the next day

or two for an extensive series of public consultations all over Newfoundland and

Labrador to fully keep the commitment that is contained in the red book.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St.

John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Just to follow through, Mr. Speaker. I

again ask the Premier - which is why perhaps when we look at what has happened

in recent weeks in this Province there is so much confusion on this issue of

educational reform.

We have releases from the office of the minister indicating

to the public of the Province that we have a framework agreement. Just last week

the Premier has added to the confusion in a public statement saying that there

is no agreement at this time. So I simply ask the Premier to clarify the

position, to hopefully let's avoid confusion on the matter. Is there a framework

agreement in existence at this time in this Province as we speak? Is there in

existence a framework agreement on the issue of education reform?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to clarify

the matter yet again for the member and for all members of the House. The member

opposite knows, because he engaged in the practice of law before he came to the

House, that a framework agreement is a framework around which a discussion

occurs. The language, "framework agreement," is very well understood by a great

many people.

For example, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has

a framework agreement with the Labrador Inuit Association in Labrador for land

claims discussions. The member knows that. We have had that framework agreement

for the last four years. We are still negotiating the land claim. The Government

of Newfoundland and Labrador signed a few weeks ago - indeed, the Leader of the

NDP was present - a framework agreement with the Innu people. A framework

agreement which set out the parameters for a discussion, for a negotiation, on

land claims with the Innu people. We are now engaged in that discussion.

For the benefit of the members opposite we have a framework

agreement for discussion with the DECs on the question of how we go about

implementing the education reform package. But there is not a final agreement on

how that implementation is yet to occur, and those discussions are ongoing. Now

I just ask one question myself, because I know the member is anxious on behalf

of his party to set the record straight, does the Leader of the Opposition and

does the Conservative Party support the amendment as proposed in the House of

Commons, and will they join a delegation from this side of the House to go to

Ottawa to press for passage of that amendment, yes or no?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: The people have spoken on that issue, Mr.

Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I take by that last response that there is still room for

dialogue and discussion which is in accordance with the Liberal Red Book and in

accordance with the wording of the Speech from the Throne. Therefore, in view of

the fact that this matter has not closed, Mr. Speaker, I can only assume that

the Premier and the members opposite will invite other critical and important

stakeholders in education, namely, Mr. Speaker, the majority of integrated

school boards in this Province, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers'

Association, the Home and School Federation and the majority of parents and

students in this Province who, as I mentioned earlier, Mr. Speaker, are confused

and concerned. My question to the Premier is: Will he now invite these other

critical stakeholders to partake in a process which the hon. Premier himself has

admitted has not been finalized?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education has

either met or is in the process of meeting with all of the groups that have been

mentioned. Indeed, I think meetings have occurred with almost all of them.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to come back to something which I

think has to be fundamental. We said that the people have spoken in a referendum

and that we are going to proceed with the reform that was spelled out in the

referendum. We are going to proceed to implement the reform that was included in

the amendment that was put before the House of Commons. We, on this side, are

very comfortable that we are going to proceed to ask the Parliament of Canada to

pass that amendment. I want to ask the Leader of the Opposition, whether he and

his party will accompany me to Ottawa in an all party unanimous delegation to

have the amendment passed forthwith?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, maybe the Premier of the

Province is spending so much time outside the Province that he neglected to or

probably he did not see - the Leader of the Opposition last week held a news

conference calling for exactly that and I am sure that the Leader of the

Opposition would go hand in hand with the Premier on that.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, since 1992 the former Liberal

government under Premier Wells talked a lot about a strategic social plan.

During the election this Premier, Premier Tobin, promised to the people of this

Province that within sixty days that a consultation paper - I will read it

directly, `The new Liberal Government will prepare and release a consultation

paper for a strategic social plan within sixty days of the election.' Now if

that was the case, if that document was released we would have expected it by

April 22. My question for the Premier is, why hasn't that been presented thus

far and released? When can we see it forthcoming?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I have just had a brief

consultation with the Minister of Social Services and indeed the consultation

document is near completion. A date for its release and the release of the

document itself will be forthcoming within the next number of days by the

Minister of Social Services, hopefully within the next week to ten days. The

document that the member makes reference to will be public and open for public

consultation and comment but, Mr. Speaker, the people of the Province have a

right to know where we all stand on fundamental questions. We know where all of

the members on this side of the House stand on the question of proceeding with

an amendment in Ottawa to Term 17. We are waiting for the word of the Leader of

the Opposition on this one.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the release of this strategic

social plan is very important. Many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, many

action groups who have been involved over the past two-and-a-half years with

this process are anxiously awaiting to see what this document will contain. I

would like to ask the Premier this question: Can he confirm for the House that a

former deputy minister in government has been retained at a deputy minister

status within government, to work directly on the plan over the next six or

seven months?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure

what the member is talking about but I can confirm for the member that we have

senior officials throughout the government and senior staff throughout the

government who are working on the document, as the member would expect. It is an

important piece of work but I don't think we have brought a former deputy

minister back into government who is out of government. I think we have people

at the deputy minister rank, at the rank of the Clerk of the Privy Council, at

the rank of the Secretary to Cabinet, at the rank of most of the Cabinet, at the

rank of the caucus and members of the Liberal Party. We have a great many people

working on it, but that should not surprise him; I hope that would reassure him.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride on a

supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, let me be a little bit more

specific for the Premier, then. Has a former deputy minister, Robert Jenkins, a

credible individual, a credible civil servant - his credentials are not in

question in this House, and I certainly won't be questioning them, but - has he

been retained by government to work specifically on the strategic social plan,

yes or no?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: I have to say to the member and I hope the

member has his - because I know the member would want to make sure he represents

matters properly - you are referring to the gentleman, Mr. Jenkins, as a former

civil servant?

MR. E. BYRNE: No, a former deputy minister.

PREMIER TOBIN: No, he is not a former deputy minister; he

is still a senior civil servant. He is at a deputy minister's salary and rank.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride on a

supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, obviously the Premier hasn't

really answered the question. The reality is this: Has he been retained to work

on, specifically, the strategic social plan? My information is that he has.

My next question for the Premier -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Has he been retained specifically to work

on the strategic social plan, yes or no?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, some of the ministers are

obviously more familiar with the senior civil servants than I am, having been

here longer, but I am told that Mr. Jenkins has been in government for

twenty-nine years now, many of those years as a deputy minister, and he,

together with many other senior civil servants - because when you are talking

about a strategic social plan, you are talking about a plan that has very big

impacts on the work and responsibilities of the Minister of Social Services,

impacts on the work and responsibilities of the Minister of Education, impacts

on the work and responsibilities of the Minister of Health, and many other

departments, so it is not unusual that many people are involved in preparing the

consultation document.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride on a

supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, as I have said, I believe the

Minister of Education, in the first question asked, basically answered my

question when he shouted out to the Premier that Mr. Jenkins has been retained

to work on the strategic social plan at a deputy minister's salary, which leads

me to this question, Premier -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Exactly. Why was the former minister,

former MHA for CBS - by what qualifications or by what criteria was she hired at

a rate of $300 a day to work on a plan that basically has already been worked on

and almost completed? Why was she hired at this point in time as a consultant to

this very, very important strategic economic plan?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the individual in question

was co-Chair of a task force with the Member for Waterford - Kenmount on

children in the Province and we think brings, because of that particular

expertise and knowledge, valuable insight to the process and that is precisely

why the individual in question has been retained.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride on a

supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Ms. Cowan's credentials are not really the issue here, Mr.

Speaker; there is a higher principle involved. The work that she performed and

did on the Children's Interests Committee, while it may be part of what is

happening in the strategic social plan, it is only one part. Is the real reason,

Premier, that the former MHA for Conception Bay South - the real reason that she

was hired - was to help her bridge her time to get to when she can get her

pension? Is not that the real reason that this form of political patronage went

on?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the last time that I had any

knowledge or involvement in seeing a former Member of the House of Assembly be

employed anywhere where I had a role was when the former Leader of the

Conservative Party, Mr. Tom Rideout, the former Premier of the Province, worked

for me during the turbot war and brought his expertise into my office in the

international branch as a former member of this House for a period of six

months, and worked there and did good work on behalf of Newfoundland and

Labrador, and good work on behalf of Canada, and nobody said that I was

patronizing a member of the House when I brought Mr. Tom Rideout into my office

during the course of the turbot war, and you should be ashamed of your

partisanship on this side of the House today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. OSBORNE: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

Given the profound consequences of any Budget that has to

deal with a shortfall of $300 million, will the Premier show leadership by

cancelling his trip to Bristol, England, next week, and instead, stay at home to

provide direction and much needed answers to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians

during this period of hardship?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, if I understand what the

member Opposite is saying, he is asking that the Government of Newfoundland and

Labrador, I take it, not be present, any member of the government at the

conference which is being held in England, at which twenty-two businesses, I

understand, from the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador are going to be

present: people from the tourism sector, people from the book-publishing sector,

people who are going to promote the Cabot 500 celebrations next year, people

from the Arts community.

Now, if the member is saying that the Government of

Newfoundland and Labrador, in whatever manifestations are appropriate to promote

the Province, should not be going to Bristol, he should stand up and clearly say

that because we don't think that you can walk away from the job of promoting

Newfoundland and Labrador and bringing new wealth to the Province by developing

a tourism sector at this, a one in 500-year chance to bring the news of

Newfoundland and Labrador around the world.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has elapsed.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: In accordance with

Section 5(4) of the

Internal Economy Commission Act, I wish to advise the House with respect to the

membership of the Commission of Internal Economy.

The members are: The Member for Bellevue in his capacity as

Deputy Speaker; the hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board and the hon.

the Minister of Environment and Labour - both ministers have been appointed by

the Lieutenant-Governor in Council in their capacity as Members of Cabinet; and

the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods in his capacity as

Government House Leader; the Member for Waterford Valley in his capacity as

Opposition House Leader; and the Member for Kilbride as a member of the

Opposition, and a speaker who is Chair for the Commission.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House

resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Ways and Means to consider the

raising of Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. I give further notice that I

will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole

on Supply to consider certain resolutions for the granting of Supply to Her

Majesty.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fortune Bay - Cape

la Hune.

MR. LANGDON: This is for tomorrow, Mr. Speaker:

Whereas the fisheries is in a state of transition in the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador; and

Whereas the economic conditions of the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador have a strong correlation to the state of the fishery;

and

Whereas the future of the Province's fishery lies in careful

management, cultivation and preservation of the fisheries resource;

BE IT RESOLVED that the House of Assembly support the present

and future initiatives of aquaculture and fish farming for the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador in an attempt to revitalize the once vibrant fishery.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a

petition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition signed by approximately

10,000 people and I will read the petition, Mr. Speaker:

We, the residents of the Baccalieu Trail, petition the hon.

Minister of Education, Roger Grimes, to cancel his announcement and retain

first-year university courses at Carbonear Campus Eastern College.

MR. FITZGERALD: How come the Member for Harbour Grace is

not presenting it?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The Chair has asked the hon. the Member for Bonavista South

to restrain himself. We are now on Petitions and members must keep their

comments relevant to the material allegations in the petitions. And members can

speak, of course, when they are recognized by the Chair.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: The prayer of the petition: Education must

be accessible and affordable to rural Newfoundland high school graduates. The

Needs Assessment Study completed by the Baccalieu Trail Chamber of Commerce was

conclusive in determining the need of offering first-year university courses at

Carbonear and was supported by the Provincial Government in the March 1995

Budget. Such action will induce financial hardship to the parents and students

of the Baccalieu Trail and may deprive many students of first-year university

due to increased financial hardship imposed by the Provincial Government.

We, the undersigned, petition the government to withdraw such

action, and support the action of the Baccalieu Trail Chamber of Commerce in

registering our written objection.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, this, signed by approximately

10,000 people, is indicative of the concern that people in that area have for

Province, an area in which enrolment is increasing, and one in which this

government spent $1.5 million to improve and enhance the campus so they can

deliver education to students in an environment where it is going to save them

$5000 to $6000 a year.

This government has the gumption and the gall to come out

without a plan, without any fiscal plan, without any plan on post-secondary

education, to show the rationale behind this cutting decision. The minister

stood in his place today and said, we are going to come out with a plan in the

future. He made the cuts. He cut Carbonear and he cut every other single part of

the Province. If the Government House Leader listened today the Minister of

Education said: We are going to come up with a plan. They are going to cut, and

cut, and cut, and then they are going to come out with a plan and try to justify

the cuts they made.

Would not a responsible government look at the growth of the

area, look at their ability to deliver those courses, and look at making them

more accessible? This is another example of downloading costs on families in

this Province, yes, in this Province, and particularly in rural areas of this

Province, downloading the cost on families which have been decimated by a

downturn in the economy of this Province. It is a further blow to people out

around this Province who have listened to the past government here, the Liberal

government, and the previous P.C. government talk about a decentralized approach

to education in the Province, where people in Port aux Basques and in Labrador,

and out in Carbonear, in Springdale, and Baie Verte, and in all the other

campuses of this Province could attend first-year university and live in their

own homes without having board and lodging costs and transportation costs which

have been estimated at $5000 or $6000.

Many families have two kids attending post-secondary

institutions and where are they going to come up with $10,000 a year for a

four-year term, or even two years? They were promised a college in Central

Newfoundland by the Liberal government, a full degree granting status. They were

promised it. They were promised to spread those courses out.

Well, one thing that is offensive to people is not just

necessarily not providing something but being promised they are going to be

given something, and then not give it to them. The integrity of the government

is at stake then, and the confidence that people have in the government to

deliver on something they promised. That is the most galling part of the

decision, apart from the financial aspect that has never been shown by this

government.

The minister cannot stand up, or the Minister of Finance,

Education, or the Premier, have failed to respond today by tabling and showing

us a plan to rationalize and tell us why they had to make these cuts, what they

are going to save, what is going to be the incurred cost on the system, and

what, in the long-term - the Premier talks about the future here in this

Province - what particular avenue -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SULLIVAN: With leave to finish up, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Sure.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. SULLIVAN: What better avenue do we have, to future

prosperity in this Province than through education? If we ever hope to get an

economic turnaround in this Province, yes, there is a future in the gallery, Mr.

Speaker. That is our future. What hope do we have in this Province? I have

people in my district, hundreds of them who have left this Province in the last

year and their only real hope is through education; and if this government

denies that right, then the future of this Province is doomed, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my pleasure to join in support of the petition

presented by the Leader of the Opposition. I just spoke to a group of students

and supporters outside the House of Assembly in the lobby, who are very

concerned that their campus is gone, and concerned that they will no longer have

access to first-year university in Carbonear. I wonder why it is that the

representatives of those people aren't here to listen to this petition. They

aren't here. The Member for Port de Grave is not here, the Member for Carbonear

is not here. The hon. Speaker is here but he is in a different capacity. The

people of Carbonear, like the people of Springdale, like the people of Burin,

Lewisporte, the other places which have access through this program to

university education, are going to be denied it.

Now, Mr. Speaker, as I said to the group gathered outside,

the campus and the first-year university program in Carbonear is not there for

the convenience of people who happen to live in that area so they can go to

school in Carbonear instead of coming to St. John's. It is not there to provide

economic activity in Carbonear, although that is a spin-off. It is there to

guarantee access to higher education to people in that part of the Province.

Because anybody who has gone to the large campus at St. John's over the years

knows that the first year is the most difficult year for students to succeed at

Memorial University, particularly those students who have to make a large

transition to living on their own, to moving to a large city or a larger place

of living, to look after themselves, and to also face a rather daunting prospect

of a university campus with several thousand students. Those of us who have been

there know what that is like.

One of the better programs that the previous government

fostered was the development of these campuses and the first-year program

throughout the Province. To take that away without any consultation - the 10,000

people who signed that petition obviously don't feel that they were consulted as

to whether this was a proper move that this government should take. And the

backlash, I suppose, is making the Minister of Education have some second

thoughts himself. We have already heard him try to take a chameleon-like

position with respect at least to the Central Newfoundland situation.

I ask the minister and the government sincerely that if they

are concerned about the future of the people of this Province, not just some

rhetoric about a better tomorrow, if they are concerned about the opportunity

that the people who live in this Province today are going to have tomorrow, then

one thing that they can't cut back on is the opportunity that students will have

to obtain a higher education so that they can go on to participate in that

better tomorrow, to be able to obtain jobs and to contribute to our economy and

to participate in the future that we have.

So when choices are being made, and as choices have to be

made, then let those choices not be made in a way that is going to deprive the

young people of this Province of an opportunity to participate in higher

education, to obtain a degree, and to learn what needs to be learned in order to

move forward and to take advantage of the opportunities that exist, not just

here in Newfoundland but all across this country. I don't believe that every

person who was born in Newfoundland has to spend their life here - that is why

we are a part of Canada; but the opportunities that are there, people must have

the capacity and the means to take advantage of them. One way to ensure that, to

help that, is to ensure access to quality education at the higher levels. To

take that away at this crucial point in time is to deny young people the hope

that they need to continue on and to work hard, to make success for themselves,

their communities, in this Province.

I support this petition wholeheartedly, and I would hope that

the Minister of Education will convince his colleagues to change their minds,

and particularly the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board to change his mind,

and exercise different choices that would see the continuance of access to

university education in the rural communities which now have them.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate the hon. the Leader of the Opposition bringing

the matter before the House, because it deserves, I think, some comment and

explanation. The context, I believe, needs to be made clear for the basis of the

petition.

Government, in announcing the decision that it did, through

myself as the Minister of Education, was laying out one aspect and one part of a

total Budget that will be read in this Legislature and presented here for the

whole Province by my colleague, the Minister of Finance, in a couple of days

time. And I think you will find at that time - I won't attempt to read his

Budget for him, but - the context and the consultation that is already and will

continue to be one of the hallmarks of this particular government was that

people brought several messages back that went into the discussion of the

Budget. One was: Don't tax us any more if you can help it at all. You are taking

too much money from us now. Spend what you have, and leave us alone on the

If you can at all, don't do any reductions on the health care side. Thirdly: If

you can at all, don't do any reductions in education, because it seemed to be

the priority that everybody states and believes that it is.

Then, the list got a little shorter after that, but those

three came repeatedly from all the consultation, all of the exercise. Then,

there was one other point that said: If, however, you have to make some

reductions because of the $230 million that the Minister of Finance was

discussing publicly, which now everybody understands is closer to $300 million,

as a difficulty we have to overcome - if you have to make reductions as the

government, then make the reductions at the administrative side, at the top

ends, at the management levels, rather than at the service side, so that people

are not disadvantaged with respect to services that they currently receive.

I think it is clear that the education reductions that were

announced a couple of weeks ago show that we could not meet the total objective

in terms of not cutting education. The Minister of Finance, in a couple of days,

will talk about whether or not we are taxing people, whether or not we are going

to have reductions in health and other departmental areas. But certainly it is

clear from the preliminary announcement given in education that the limit to

which we could not cut actual programs was reached before we got through all of

the education system, as the third thing mentioned in the consultation; and in

the initial efforts with $230 million as a target, we thought we had reached,

and Cabinet was satisfied that we had reached, our objectives on the education

side administratively, with no dropping or changing of any program basis; but

just by going from five college administrations to one at the post-secondary

level, by going from twenty-seven school boards to ten in the K to XII system,

there would be significant savings that would not see program delivery in any

way negatively impacted for students, either in the K to XII system or in the

post-secondary system.

Going back through the exercise again, when we became aware

that we had another $60 million to $70 million deficit problem to deal with, it

was obvious then that some program areas were, in fact, discussed, and I

announced two of them for reduction in terms of closing some campuses and

eliminating the offering of first-year university as we know it today in the

campuses everywhere in Newfoundland and Labrador except here in St. John's, in

Corner Brook at the Sir Wilfred Grenfell College, and in Labrador West.

What has happened since then - and everybody has clearly made

their views known, as were made known again today by representatives from the

Baccalieu Trail that they don't like the decision; they would wish and hope for

another decision, that some other means could be found by government to effect

the savings and the reductions. And I can tell you that it is not something that

this particular government wants to be engaged in or involved in. Because we

firmly believe in and we are a large part of the Government of the Province that

made, and continues to try to make, education as accessible to as many students

in the Province as close as possible to where they live.

The good news in it, if there is any, is that the college

boards, both in Central Newfoundland and in the Eastern College, which covers

not only Carbonear, which is the group today, but Clarenville and Burin as well,

have been working very hard with our officials to try to find alternate delivery

mechanisms so that first-year university can still be offered in these campuses

even within the reduced budget. Because they have understood that there is not

much point in coming to myself, as one individual minister in the budget

exercise, or to the Cabinet, and saying, `You must put $8 million back into this

program'. All that would mean is that all of us on this side would have to go

back through the whole exercise again and say, `If $8 million goes in here, now

where are we going to take it out? Is it going to be in health? Is it going to

be in Works, Services, and Transportation? Is it going to be in municipal

operating grants?' We have gone through that exercise. The full details will be

announced in a couple of days.

We are hopeful that, particularly for the students -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. minister's time is up.

MR. GRIMES: If I could, just for a second -

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. GRIMES: We are hopeful, especially for the students

who are now put into an awkward position with their planning for next year, that

we can make some final decisions in a matter of days with the college boards in

Central Newfoundland and for the Eastern Region to let people know what version

of first-year university those boards have now shown the government can be

delivered in their campuses, not only in Carbonear but also Clarenville and also

in Burin. The Central Newfoundland Board is talking about a single delivery site

in Central Newfoundland and they are looking at options that would in fact see

that delivered with no requirement of the government to try to put extra money

back into the education budget to allow it to happen. It may or may not, Mr.

Speaker, be acceptable to the students. They may look at what is proposed and

say, no I don't like this. I am either not going to first-year university next

year at all or I am going to St. John's or Corner Brook or I am going to a

mainland university, and exercise some other option. But at least there will be

an option unveiled in a matter of very short order that will give the students a

choice as to what they want to do for next year.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, on a

petition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to present a petition of the undersigned

residents of Newfoundland and Labrador which reads:

WHEREAS Newfoundland Power has asked the Public Utilities

Board to approve an increase in electricity rates; and

WHEREAS Newfoundland Power, having made some $27.8 million in

profit last year, is not in need of extra revenue from consumers; and

WHEREAS not having had a rate increase since 1992 is no

justification for a rate increase in 1996;

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that your hon. House

may be pleased to request the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to do

whatever is required to prevent an increase in Newfoundland Power electricity

rates, and as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, this was a very, very important issue before the

House closed and it has become more important today for a number of reasons, not

the least of which that since the House closed, this government has entered into

a memorandum of understanding with respect to the harmonization of provincial

sales tax and the GST. The impact that this will have on all areas of government

revenues, Mr. Speaker, will be profound and far-reaching.

Specifically dealing with Newfoundland Power, we debated in

this House a private member's resolution - supported by all members of the

House, I believe, at the time, with minor amendments suggested by the Member for

Mount Scio - Bell Island - that we give the Consumer Advocate whatever power and

whatever resources that we could provide to him, from the government, to ensure

that the consumers' interest was represented to the best of our ability as

legislators and as government; and most importantly, Mr. Speaker, to ensure that

rates for Newfoundland Power would remain at their present level. What will the

impact be of government's recent initiative on the PST/GST harmonization, the

impact upon heat bills, oil bills but in particular the impact upon the average

consumer in Newfoundland and Labrador? They will see, Mr. Speaker, if there is

no increase granted by the Public Utilities Board, based upon its submission

right now, if there is no increase - it is important for everyone to understand

that - that as a result of this memorandum of agreement which will be

implemented, the people of this Province who pay for electricity, which are the

majority of us, consumers, will see an average increase of approximately 8 per

cent - a little bit less, about 7.8 per cent. I say to the Minister of Forest

Resources and Agrifoods that the answer is yes. It is not no, that the

Vice-President of Newfoundland and Labrador Power, with whom I spoke -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Hold on, if the minister would like to hear

out the full component of it. On a CBC radio interview, the Vice-President of

Newfoundland Power said that on average - because of GST and the PST

harmonization - consumers will pay about 7.7 per cent to 7.8 per cent. The

Consumer Advocate, appointed by this government, said exactly the same thing.

While we were debating this, Mr. Speaker, while we in this House were debating a

private members' resolution and petitions, the reality is that people in this

Province, because of the Memorandum of Understanding that was signed by this

government, will pay on average about 7.9 per cent to 8 per cent more for

electricity rates across the board. That is not including or factoring in, Mr.

Speaker, the possibility of a rate increase right now that Newfoundland Power

has put before the Public Utilities Board.

Mr. Speaker, that situation I find personally unacceptable

and I think all members, for the most part, would find it unacceptable, too. All

members in this House receive calls as I do about increases in light bills,

about the nature of the economy, how tough it is today. And when we see an

initiative that really will hurt this Province in the long run in terms of our

ability to gain revenue, to generate revenue, that will give us more of an

ability to provide more services, the very services that we are cutting today,

and we see an initiative by government that limits our ability on the one hand

in terms of our tax control and our ability to tax, but more importantly that

diminishes the amount of revenue that comes into this Province and that comes

into provincial coffers for the sake of harmonization, then I think that we all

should stand up and start to question this decision and the impact it will have

for the future of the Province.

In year two, for example, on harmonization we will receive

100 per cent of what our revenues supposedly were, what the lost revenues would

be. In year three, fifty cents on every dollar what we would have lost, and in

year four, twenty-five cents on every dollar. But the real losers are the people

in this Province who will be paying more for clothing, books, basic necessities

like heat and oil. At the same time, what we essentially have done is put an

extra burden upon the backs of the people in this Province who can ill afford to

have it upon their backs.

The Minister of Education stood in this House just two

minutes ago and said that when government went around the Province -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: By leave, Mr. Speaker, to clue up?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave.

MR. E. BYRNE: No leave?

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. E. BYRNE: Just a couple of minutes ago, Mr. Speaker,

the Minister of Education stood and said that the people of this Province, when

the government travelled in consulting about making choices about what would be

coming up in the Budget - and it is a difficult time for government, it is a

difficult time for all members, and it would be a difficult time no matter who

sat on that side of the House and what we are doing today. But the minister did

say that the people of this Province said loudly and clearly: Don't raise taxes.

The indirect impact of harmonization of GST and PST upon Newfoundland Light and

Power and a basic commodity to the people of this Province will be in fact a

direct increase in the amount of electricity rates that we pay to the tune of

7.7 per cent to 8 per cent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay

South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to support the petition of my colleague, the

Member for Kilbride. I won't get into the matters of the taxation. I think my

colleague has very well covered that. I will say again today that this is still

part of where we ended off when the House closed, of numerous petitions that

will come before this hon. House to see that there is no increase granted to

Newfoundland Light and Power in this Province.

Its rates today of profits are exorbitant, its interest rates

are at an all-time low, and yet it continues to try to fleece the people of this

Province. I think it is time that it stopped. We intend to keep presenting the

petitions of the people in this Province until something is done to change the

regulations of the PUB so that we can carry on and have some control over them.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main -

Whitbourne.

MR. WHELAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand in this hon. House today to present a petition on

behalf of the residents of Harbour Main - Chapel Cove - Lakeview.

The prayer of the petition is as follows:

WHEREAS we, the residents of Harbour Main in the District of

Harbour Main - Whitbourne feel the closure of St. Joseph's School will be

detrimental to the children of Harbour Main; and

WHEREAS our children will be bused to a school whose driveway

and parking area will compromise the safety of our children; and

WHEREAS we feel that many of the benefits derived from

programs presently offered at St. Joseph's will suffer;

WHEREFORE this House of Assembly should call upon the

government to bring pressure to bear on the school board to rescind their

decision to close St. Joseph's School; and as in duty bound our petitioners will

ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, the petition I have here contains approximately

660 names. They come from, as I mentioned, the community of Harbour Main -

Chapel Cove - Lakeview. This particular community has had a long and very proud

tradition of setting standards for education in the Conception Bay Centre area.

They have a strong sense of community identity. That sense of identity is

gradually being eroded and worn away. It has a very adverse effect on people and

a community.

The standards of education in this school in Harbour Main is

very well-known in the Conception Bay Centre area. Approximately 150 years ago,

members of the Presentation Order, Sisters of the Presentation Order, stepped

ashore from their boats, climbed the banks and from there established a school,

the standards of which, probably ranks second to none anywhere in the Province.

The present school board has seen fit to close the St.

Joseph's School; they presently house students from Kindergarten to Grade VI.

They are proposing to bus them to a school in Holyrood, Holy Cross School. I

don't have any problems with the school itself. The approach to the school and

the school grounds are another issue however; I understand there is a proposal

to spend approximately anywhere from $60,000 to $80,000 just to try to make the

approach to the school somewhat safer than what it is. And I still have doubts

whether they can accomplish the goal that they are setting out to do. So there

is a problem there in the sense that the safety of the schoolchildren from

Harbour Main could be compromised and I can understand the parents' concerns

about that.

The school board has taken upon itself to decide to close the

school, I got the impression from the meetings and the public meetings that I

had attended. The government had taken the initiative to ask the school board to

close them, but I understand that is not the case really. That decision was made

by the school board itself. And I can understand the Minister of Education,

there aren't many avenues that he can follow, but I will ask him today to follow

any and every avenue that he has, to see that the decision made by the school

board is rescinded and that indeed the school at Harbour Main, St. Joseph's

School, continues to stay open.

No doubt, in years to come, a lot of these schools will be

centralized as student enrolment declines. However, if they are centralized, I

would like to see them centralized in a central location. Those plans that they

have right now is to decentralize, to bus children to school at one extreme of

the Conception Bay Centre area and I don't know if that is an overly-wise

decision.

Again, I repeat, and I ask the minister - I have had several

meetings with the minister and I can understand the dilemma that he is in, but I

will ask the minister to follow each and every avenue that he has at his

disposal to see that the decision made by the school board is changed.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay

South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to rise today to support the petition of my hon.

colleague on the opposite side. I, too, have attended many meetings as it

relates to St. Joseph's School in Harbour Main and as well because in my own

district it refers to Holy Cross School in Holyrood.

I probably do not agree with everything my friend has said

over there. I am not so sure if total blame here should really rest with the

Western Avalon Regional Roman Catholic School Board or whether there is actually

a problem maybe with the Department of Education, or whether there is a problem

with the R.C. Board in St. John's which allocates the funds. I might ask the

minister that maybe some pressure should be made there, that some of the funds

be released so that this school board is not saddled with the responsibility of

borrowing money because they can show a savings, Mr. Speaker, by closing St.

Joseph's School which I think is certainly wrong.

My understanding is, and I have been trying for some time to

get a copy of the letter but I don't seem to be having much luck from the school

board or from the department, that, if they close St. Joseph's School and there

is a savings there, the school board will be given permission to borrow the

money and they can then go ahead and make the necessary repairs at Holy Cross

School.

At Holy Cross School, Mr. Speaker, there is a major problem.

I am surprised that over the last number of years they have allowed children to

go into that school, especially in the winter months when you cannot drive a

seventy-two passenger school bus up to the door of the school, but the savings

that will be made by closing Harbour Main they claim will offset this and they

will actually be able to make repairs to the school at Holy Cross in Holyrood.

It is very interesting to note that at St. Joseph's school

all the challenging needs children from Colliers right through to Holyrood

actually go to school at St. Joseph's. Mr. Speaker, I think it is wrong that we

close this school. I think the funding should be allocated to make the necessary

repairs to Holy Cross School, to the parking lot, and that there should be

somebody interceding today on behalf of the people of Harbour Main to see that

St. Joseph's remains open.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just a few brief comments because I have attended meetings

with both of the hon. members that participated in this particular petition and

I think everybody understands that there is a particular process that has been

followed with respect to the Avalon West Roman Catholic School Board. While a

lot of parents are disappointed in certain parts of that particular area,

particularly the Harbour Main area, and disagree with the decision, I have been

spending my time, Mr. Speaker, trying to make sure that everybody understands

that it is not a role for the Minister of Education or the Department of

Education to make any particular decision about a school opening, closing, or

consolidation in the Province.

The duly elected school boards are mandated to make those

kind of decisions, and in this instance, just like we have done in several other

regions of the Province, because there is no funding available through the

Denominational Education Councils, and because there is no additional funding

available directly from the department, because by virtue of the Constitution

and the law in the Province we cannot give money directly to any one board or

any one school for a project.

I believe and I always thought, Mr. Speaker, that the hon.

member opposite actually understood that and had come to learn that it is not a

possibility for us to do that in Newfoundland and Labrador at this time. What we

are doing is continuing to provide information for the parents, particularly

from the Harbour Main area who feel disadvantaged and are upset by the fact that

their school is slated for closure, a decision taken by the duly elected board

after they examined the whole issue with respect to Harbour Main and Holyrood.

It is unfortunate that some people have tried to make this a

political issue by suggesting that the board is closing a school because the

government asked them to do it. The government, Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge,

has never asked any school board to open or close a school anywhere. In the

draft legislation, for example, we suggested that superintendents should be

hired by the department instead of by school boards but everybody protested and

we immediately withdrew that, even before the last election.

Those people are employees of the school boards and the

school boards are elected just like we are. Their mandate is to make those

decisions and they have made a very tough decision and they know it is not very

popular with the community of Harbour Main and the parents of Harbour Main. It

is never an easy decision to make. The board has been supported in it by the

department, and by government, to the extent that it is the only option

available to them.

If they wanted to do that, which they concluded they did, the

only option available to them to make it happen, was for us to find a way to

give them permission to borrow, because under the Constitution and under the law

of the Province we could not give them money and the DECs did not have any money

for them. Mr. Speaker, we are trying to facilitate a decision that has gone

through the proper process at the board level. It is clearly one that a certain

segment of the population of a particular community does not agree with.

We met with them as recently, and as late, as this morning

and the only recourse left to them is to try and ask the board one more time to

reconsider the decision. They are going to look at that particular option and we

have continued to provide them with information as to exactly what role the

government and the department is playing so that they can make the appropriate

approaches with their duly elected school board with respect to the issue.

At this point in time the decision of the board is that they

want to close, and they have in fact ordered the closure of St. Joseph's School

in Harbour Main. They are looking to borrow money so that they can make the

improvements at the school in Holyrood. That is the decision of the board as it

stands, and that government will try to facilitate, unless the board changes its

mind.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South on a

petition.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to present a

petition from people from Bonavista South, the District of Terra Nova, and some

people from, or at least one person from, the District of Port de Grave.

Mr. Speaker, it is a petition once again addressed to the

hon. the House of Assembly in legislative session convened. The petition of the

undersigned residents of Newfoundland and Labrador. That

whereas Newfoundland

Power has asked the Public Utilities Board to approve an increase in electricity

rates; and

whereas Newfoundland Power has a monopoly in the delivery of the

essential commodity in this Province, is not at risk of becoming

non-competitive; wherefore your petitioners humbly pray that the hon. House may

be pleased to request the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to do whatever

is required to prevent an increase in Newfoundland Power electricity rates; and

as duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, this is a petition signed by the people of this

particular area in opposition to a proposed increase request by Newfoundland

Light and Power whereby it has come forward to the Public Utilities Board to

request a 4.9 per cent increase in its electricity rates. My hon. colleague

here, my friend for the District of Kilbride, spoke about what will happen when

we harmonize the GST with the PST, and we talk about another 8 per cent hike in

electricity rates. Whether we like it or not it is a tax, it is a hike in rates,

it is a rate that people will have to pay, and then all of a sudden we see the

rate payers of Newfoundland and Labrador not only paying the 4.9 per cent

increase that this particular utility is looking for, but the far greater price

of approximately 13 per cent. That will translate into probably $55, $56 a month

for anybody in rural Newfoundland heating their house by electricity.

It is unfortunate that most of the people who are going to be

hit with those high electricity rates are people in this Province who can least

afford it. Those are people who are out there today living on social service

receipts, social service welfare, people out there today getting funding through

the TAGS program, people out there today working for the minimum wage in this

Province. Those are the people that this rate increase is going to hurt the

most.

We talk about consultation, the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board talked about when he went around the Province. People continually

came forward and said: We don't want to see health care cut back, we don't want

to see a hike in taxes. This is a hike in taxes. It is not a luxury any more to

have electricity. Everybody who I know of has electricity in most of the rural

areas of this Province. It is a bill that they have to pay the same as having to

pay their income tax or a tax on any other item or commodity that they purchase

at the local store, or that they pay when they submit their income tax return at

the end of the year.

I remember a few years ago in working for a fish plant on the

Island, and this was a seasonal plant, and naturally in order to survive the

particular plant had to look at cutting expenses and shaving and cutting the

garment as much as possible in order to save dollars. I was amazed to find out

that this particular industry only operating two months of the year had to pay

an electricity rate for twelve months of the year, the same price as they paid

when they were in production. Unbelievable! You consult the utility and the

first thing it says is that you pay on demand, and if you use that amount of

electricity for any particular time during that particular year then you pay

that rate for the whole year. Unless of course you hit a higher demand, and then

you pay that, but it never goes any lower.

This is the kind of a problem that we are experiencing here

where you have an industry with a monopoly on what it is producing and what it

is selling. When you look at the advertising that has been done by this

particular commodity over the year and you turn on your television and you see

those fancy ads. The Irving Oil company, a giant conglomerate from New

Brunswick, is running the ad continually but that is being paid - we have a

choice there. If we don't want to buy their oil we can buy somebody else's. We

don't have a choice, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

MR. FITZGERALD: Just a minute to clue up, please.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: We don't have a choice, Mr. Speaker, as

it relates to electricity in this Province, so I ask the government, Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion, if they would consider intervening here, and I firmly

believe that $28 million is a nice tidy profit and anybody or any other company

in this Province would be certainly welcome and would certainly be encouraged

and would remain here and be competitive if they were allowed to make that kind

of a profit.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand to support the Member for Bonavista's petition

dealing with the proposed rate increase from Newfoundland Light and Power. A few

moments ago, Mr. Speaker, I presented my own petition dealing with it and I

highlighted at that time, the impact that the PST- GST harmonization would have

on Newfoundland Light and Power and the increase in rates that it will cause for

all consumers, each and every one of us who sit in the House of Assembly as

consumers, but, Mr. Speaker, what I would like to do now is just to highlight

some of the events that have transpired, since the House closed, with

Newfoundland Light and Power.

About two weeks after the House closed, Newfoundland Light

and Power put out a public release that they didn't really need a 4.9 per cent

increase in power rates, but actually, all they needed was a 3.9 per cent

increase, that they had looked over their submission to the PUB, that they had

redone their numbers, that they had a third and fourth look over and they felt

that they could get by with a 3.9 per cent increase if the Public Utility Board

would be so good as to provide it, and obviously, the consumer advocate and

those people who are involved and all consumers who do not want to see an

increase, thought that was laughable but, it also provided some insight and

provided some people with a great deal of relief that the public pressure that

was being put upon this corporation and the pressure that is being put upon

government through the Legislature, through members individually and through the

consumer advocate was having some effect, and, Mr. Speaker, shortly after that

announcement, came another one from Newfoundland Light and Power which suggested

that they really didn't need a 3.9 per cent increase to compensate them for the

upcoming years, to ensure that their debt equity ratio would remain intact, to

ensure that the dividends paid to shareholders would remain at least constant if

not somewhat higher, but in fact, that they could get by with a 2.9 per cent

increase in electricity rates.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the reality is that this company and this

corporation do not need an increase in rates to remain competitive in the

marketplace. It does not need it, Mr. Speaker, but I can tell you this, that

consumers and the people of this Province, at this time, due to the economic

circumstances that we find ourselves in as a Province, due to the economic

circumstances that this government finds itself in, do not need an increase in

electricity rates and do not require any increase in taxes whether that be

directly or indirectly, Mr. Speaker, but that is what is happening in this

particular case.

If Newfoundland Power is granted a 2.9 per cent increase and

on top GST and the PST harmonization go ahead, consumers in this Province will

pay 10 per cent more for their electrical heat right now, not tomorrow, not two

years from now, they will be paying 10 per cent more right now, today. Frankly,

Mr. Speaker, it is unacceptable that we on the one hand are preaching

conservation, that we are cutting back to ensure that basic services can be

provided to the people of the Province, and on the other hand, this Legislature,

which has the power to stop this, indirectly is saying to consumers: no, we

haven't done it but Newfoundland Power is going to do it, and Newfoundland Power

is saying: yes, we have done it because of an action by government called the

harmonization of the PST and GST, which will wreak long-lasting and negative

economic impacts for this Province in terms of lost revenues.

Mr. Speaker, I again, stand to support the Member for

Bonavista in the petition that he presented on behalf of the people from his

district, and will continue to do so, each and every time he presents it or any

other member, whatever side of the House, is willing to present a petition on

this very, very important issue.

Thank you very much.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I move that we move to Order No.

1, Address in Reply.

MR. SPEAKER: Order No. 1, Address in Reply.

The hon. the Member for Topsail.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, my first order of business

today is to extend my congratulations to all recently elected and re-elected

members of the 43rd House of Assembly. I would be lax in my duties if I did not,

like others, take a moment to congratulate each and every one on a well run

campaign.

Mr. Speaker, if I may, I would also like to congratulate the

Premier on his decision in making the transition from federal to provincial

politics, a very successful one, I might add. I would also like to say thank you

to the voters of Topsail for their overwhelming support, for choosing me as

their representative in this most honourable House. I, as other members of this

new Liberal government, look forward to working closely with the hon. Premier,

my hon. colleagues in caucus, and the hon. members opposite.

Before I move on to impress upon the members of the House the

importance of the district that I am proud to represent, I must extend a

heartfelt thanks to the former MHA for Conception Bay South, Ms. Patricia Cowan,

for the great contributions that she made to the area and to the Province as a

whole. I had the great pleasure of working with Ms. Cowan, both as her campaign

manager in two elections, and her executive assistant when she became Minister

of the Crown. During that time I had ample opportunity to serve the people of

what is now the great district of Topsail. Therefore, the role of an MHA is not

an entirely new concept to me. In fact, the realm of the political arena and the

complexities of the House are not new to me either. As a frequent visitor to the

public gallery, I often wished that I could participate in the lively debate

that took place among the hon. members, and I intend to take full advantage of

my capabilities in this area, gained from both working with Ms. Cowan and my own

personal experiences. I, too, as elected members before me, will strive to meet

the needs of my constituents, and do my best to help every Newfoundlander and

Labradorian.

Mr. Speaker, if I may, I would like to take a few moments to

talk about the Topsail district in some detail. I should point out first of all

that my district is strategically located west of the overpass, and is one of

the fastest growing areas in this Province. The district begins at Conways Brook

in Long Pond, and extends eastward through the Town of Conception Bay South to

encompass a large portion of the Town of Paradise.

I remind hon. members that it is difficult to talk about my

district without mentioning the surrounding electoral districts of Conception

Bay South, represented by the member opposite, and that of Conception Bay East

and Bell Island, represented by my hon. colleague. It is worthy of emphasis that

I represent a portion of the Town of Conception Bay South at the western

perimeter, and a portion of the Town of Paradise in the east. Therefore, all

three districts are so closely associated that I feel obligated to watch over

the entire area rather than just the area of the Topsail district.

Mr. Speaker, in the last couple of years people have flocked

to the area to build homes because of the easy access to St. John's. The many

building lots that offer spectacular views of Conception Bay, and the quieter,

more rural atmosphere is conducive to raising children.

Mr. Speaker, I must also mention the great amount of

community spirit that exists in the Topsail district, areas such as the Peter

Barry Duff Park has mushroomed into a hub of community activity. From the

donation of the land in the memory of the late Peter Barry Duff, the community,

with relatively a small grant of $32,000, has completed construction of a soccer

field, as well as a baseball pitch nearing completion. This work could well have

cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, but with the great community spirit this

project was completed for considerably less.

I also recently attended a Flag Day celebration sponsored by

the Conception Bay South Kinsmen and Kinnettes Club. This was a stirring moment

as several residents gathered in the area to help support national unity. It

made me proud to be a Newfoundlander, proud to be a citizen of the District of

Topsail, but prouder still to be a citizen of this great country of Canada. I

must also mention the tremendous work the Rotary Club is doing in the district.

With the acquisition of the Topsail Beach Park it hopes to develop it into an

all-year community site with walking and hiking trails, swimming, picnic areas.

Truly a good example of drive and enthusiasm of the people of the District of

Topsail.

I could speak for hours of the community spirit of the people

of my district. I can only hope that the people will not be upset because there

are several ongoing projects that I do not have time to mention. I believe that

all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians can take an example from the community

spirit and enthusiasm that is shared by the people of my great district.

As I have said, the population of the district has grown

rapidly during the past number of years and continues to grow. This rapid

residential growth has brought with it a crying need for water and sewer to

service the many homes that line the roads of the district. In 1989 when the

government changed hands the majority of the people in the district were

carrying their drinking water and trying to keep their children from playing in

sewer ditches. But that was 1989. As soon as the Liberal government was elected

the town of Paradise was for the first time in a long time included in the

capital works program. In total, Paradise has exceeded some $9 million in water

and sewer grants to the town. The town of Conception Bay South has received in

excess of $25 million in water and sewer and community enhancement grants since

then. However, both towns are still in a great need of financial assistance for

infrastructure. I am hoping that we will facilitate further improvements in the

future. Towards that end I will continue to work closely with the Minister of

Municipal and Provincial Affairs in order to achieve the changes needed.

This Liberal government will pick up where its predecessors

left off. It will stay the course and continue to deal with its financial

position in a responsible and fair manner. In the past it became possible to

undertake through the Department of Health a full assessment regarding the water

and sewer requirements in the area. This study prioritized the areas of greatest

need for services. Of course, this initiative was in keeping with one of the

hallmarks of a Liberal government policy, and that is of addressing the areas of

greatest need first and foremost regardless of political stripe of the district.

This same policy will continue to be a feature of the new Liberal government.

Government in its wisdom established a committee of Cabinet

to identify where the greatest need for water and sewer facilities existed in

the Conception Bay South area and proceeded to address the problem. Shortly

after the federal-provincial infrastructure program came into being the district

was well equipped to make its case, and as a result $5 million of that program

went into Conception Bay South with a commitment for more funding to follow in

subsequent years. I was advised by the hon. Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs last week that he will be releasing some $5 million more for water and

sewer work this year in the town of Conception Bay South.

The district has flourished in many ways through direct and

indirect government involvement. For example, the development of much of the CBS

highway to four lanes to the Foxtrap access road; the construction of two

seniors' apartment complexes; the healthy beginning of the Conception Bay South

by-pass road; funding for the Paradise rec centre; seed money and program

funding for clean up and development of the beautiful Manuels river; and funding

for the facilities for the 1996 provincial summer games. They are being held in

the Town of Conception Bay South from August 10-17. Mr. Speaker, I would like to

extend an invitation to all members of the House, as well as all Newfoundlanders

and Labradorians, to attend the 1996 Newfoundland and Labrador Summer Games and

I am sure it will be a good time for one and all.

Conception Bay South and Paradise have much to make them

attractive as areas for industrial growth. The area possesses huge tourism

potential, easy access to major transportation routes, a growing industrial

park, a fine harbour facility at Long Pond. Mr. Speaker, I look forward to the

day when the people of the great district of Topsail become more capable of self

sufficiency due primarily to the strengthened tax base, growing from the

innovative, economic and developmental policies of the new Liberal Government.

In my closing remarks, Mr. Speaker, I want to emphasis that I

place great confidence in the very capable leadership of our Premier. I have

conversed with the Premier regarding the dire need for infrastructure in the

area. Furthermore, the Premier recognizes that need and expresses a desire to

see these needs met. I trust that with good faith from all members of this new

Assembly, together we will work towards a common goal making Newfoundland and

Labrador a better place in which to live, now and in the years to come.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise in my place today to say a few words on

the Address in Reply to the Throne Speech. My first comment though, from what I

have been told - I don't know if this is accurate or not - that this is the

first time that the House of Assembly is debating the Throne Speech since 1978.

Now that is what I have been told, I am not sure but it seems to be a long while

since the -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Basically - it is not accurate? Anyway, if

that is the case it must show something. It must show that there is a lack of

planning on the part of the government, Mr. Speaker, or a lack of foresight and

depth of this administration or probably more particular, when I look at the

Order Paper today the lack of legislation that may be forthcoming in this

sitting.

Now I would like to say a few words on the Throne Speech. The

first thing about the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, is the Premier stated that

they wanted to change the name of the Province from Newfoundland to Newfoundland

and Labrador. This will require an amendment to the Terms of Union in the House

of Assembly and by parliament, and to me that may or may not be a good idea.

There are some positive comments out in the public with respect to changing the

name of the Province to Newfoundland and Labrador and some negative comments in

the public. Some people seem to believe that the name Newfoundland is fine but

that is for the public to decide one way or the other, I suppose, Mr. Speaker.

Now basically we see the signs. In the previous

administration the Premier had a reputation for travelling a fair bit and it

seems that the present Premier will be doing the same. Since a little over two

months ago when the election was completed and the Liberals formed a government

the Premier has travelled outside the Province a fair bit and the public are

questioning that. It was only last week that he was in Ottawa somewhere and the

papers referred to him as Captain Canada. He is taking on his Captain Canada

role once again. I think the people of the Province would be more interested if

he stayed home and took care of the interests of the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

Now, Mr. Speaker, in the last sitting back in March I made a

comment with respect to the Premier, his reputation in Ottawa as being probably

the most expensive minister in Ottawa at the time, $800 a day and he seems to be

living up to that reputation at this point in time, Mr. Speaker.

The Member for St. John's South asked a question today with

respect to the Premier going to Bristol. I don't think the Member for St. John's

South was trying to make the point that there should be no representation from

Newfoundland. I think that the Member for St. John's South was basically making

the point that the Premier should stay home, take care of the interests of the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador, which was what he was elected to do, and to

send one of his ministers, maybe the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation, off to Bristol to take care of the situation over there with respect

to the boat coming over here.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: The Government House Leader, what are you

saying?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I never asked him to go out and sell the

Province, I say to the Government House Leader. I don't think I would ask him to

do that because I would say we may have better ambassadors to do that very job.

With respect to the Throne Speech he talked about Voisey's

Bay. He says: My Government will gain full benefits from the Voisey's Bay mine,

including the construction of a smelter and refinery in our province. Now they

didn't really say at the point in this document how they would do that. The

Throne Speech normally or generally is to set forward the agenda or the general

intent of the government elected, the framework I suppose of the - what is it,

framework plan - what do they refer to it as? - framework agreement, whatever

the case may be. As I said, the Throne Speech is supposed to set forward the

general trends or general ideas and plans of the administration.

When he spoke of Voisey's Bay he didn't say how he would get

the construction of the refinery here in our Province. I think that naturally it

will be done. Hopefully, I would say so to the Government House Leader that it

will be done and we will get a smelter in Newfoundland or Labrador. Or

Newfoundland and Labrador, if that is going to be the name of the Province. But

my question is, what has been given, or what agreement has been made behind the

scenes, to obtain a smelter in Newfoundland?

I know that since the fall of 1994 when the mineral tax act

was revamped or brought in and approved in the fall of 1994, shortly afterwards

Voisey's Bay was discovered, it may have been discovered before that but this

wasn't made public at that point in time when the legislation was put forward in

the past. I think that was in the fall of 1994 and probably in early 1995, in

January or February, the announcement was made with respect to Voisey's Bay. So

following that the premier of the day basically came forward and said that they

would put amendments forward to the mineral tax acts to address the possible,

give-away, I suppose, of large mines in the Province, or certainly to address

the financial situation with respect to revenues coming into the Province from

large projects such as Voisey's Bay.

I suppose in the spring of 1995, the fall of 1995, and back

in March we have been asking for the amendments and what was happening to the

amendments to the mineral tax act, and they haven't been forthcoming to this

point in time. So I hope that there hasn't been something worked out here that

we will get a smelter for not bringing in amendments to the mineral tax act.

Now the Throne Speech also addressed the Hibernia project and

it said that we will receive full benefits from the Hibernia project. From

memory I would say that there was supposed to be a fairly large transfer of

technology to Newfoundlanders during the life of the Hibernia project. I know

that there were a lot of jobs created and it basically got us over the hump with

respect to the economy here in Newfoundland, or the negativity with respect to

the economy here in Newfoundland and Labrador over the past few years. But we

did not get the technology transfer that we were supposed to get at that point

in time. Consequently now we are talking about the Terra Nova oilfield, and I'm

wondering if that oil field is developed will we get the technology transfer to

the people of Newfoundland and Labrador if that is developed properly.

Now also in the Throne Speech it says here: Oil exploration

on the West Coast continues to increase. Hunt Oil and Pan Canadian Petroleum

have drilled two onshore wells and will drill an offshore well this year. That

is ongoing, I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy. The only problem we see

at this point in time is the rigs that have been coming in, and from the

information that has been given to me, the rigs that have been coming in and

will be setting up there, 70 per cent of the people who will be employed on

those rigs are coming from outside Newfoundland and Labrador, and we do have

people in Newfoundland and Labrador who have worked on oil rigs all over the

world.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Not accurate? Well, we shall see. Time will

tell, that has been said in this House of Assembly before about members on this

side of the House, not knowing what they have been talking about and that side

of the House was found out not to know what they were talking about.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: But you are wrong. Every time you say it

you find you are wrong over there.

Anyway, we have been told that there is a large number of

people coming in from Nova Scotia and other provinces working on the rig and we

are not getting our fair share, the people within this Province on those rigs -

am I right?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, you are 100 per cent right and the

minister is aware of it too.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought I was.

AN HON. MEMBER: That minister is aware of it too.

MR. J. BYRNE: Sure he is. The Minister of Education is

aware of that. He is aware of a lot of stuff; I mean, he is aware of a lot of

things that the Premier is not aware of today. When the question was asked of

the Premier, the Minister of Education knew the answer. The Premier did not know

the answer because he sang out the name across the House, so he should have run.

The Minister of Education should not have chickened out, he should have run, he

might have beaten him.

MR. FITZGERALD: If he had left his golf clubs back in

Newfoundland instead of taking them to Florida, he would have been back and

would have been able to run and maybe he would have been sitting in the Chair.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. Take your time now, take it easy. Now,

The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation probably should have had a go

at it too, he would have beaten the god coming home from Ottawa but anyway, they

chickened out and they didn't do it, now they are ministers still but sobeit.

The Throne Speech also talks about the developing of our

renewable resources. Now, I am going to pay a very small compliment here to the

Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture because, basically the Red Book here or

the Throne Speech took a page out of our Blue Book and talked about

underutilized species, and it was only yesterday that the Minister of Fisheries

and Aquaculture had a news conference to announce that he would be experimenting

with underutilized species to try to get the industry going and rightly so. It

is about time for something like that to happen.

We do need this as the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture

stated yesterday. There was too much emphasis placed on the cod fishery and it

was over fished and of course, we all know what happened to the cod fishery in

Newfoundland and Labrador, but with respect to underutilized species, we made a

statement during the election that we needed to get into that end of the

fishery, the underutilized species, to start promoting that, looking for markets

worldwide, start up some plants and get some people in rural Newfoundland back

to work in the fishery. So, I can only say that is a positive step with respect

to the fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker.

Also, in the Throne Speech, it talked about Tourism and

Culture. It says: the magnificence of our wildness areas, the rugged beauty of

our seacoast, the richness of our history, the unique character of our

communities, the dynamism of our culture and the wealth of our wildlife are all

renewable resources for our tourism and cultural industries. Now, Mr. Speaker,

who could argue with that? That is motherhood; those are motherhood issues but I

would like to make a comment on a couple of things with which I am fairly

familiar and one of course, is salmon fishing; I am an avid salmon fisherman. I

try to get a couple of trips in every summer, it is hard to get the time to do

it but I do try to get up to the Northern Peninsula to the River of Ponds area

and do a bit of salmon fishing and I enjoy that, but what they have done over

the past few years of course, is cut the number of fish that you could retain to

six per season, three and three. Three before the end of July I believe and

three after that, and into catch and release.

Now, I suppose, if you want to talk about salmon fishing and

the promotion of salmon fishing, salmon fishing in Newfoundland and Labrador, we

have to look at the tourism end of it and the amount of dollars that are spent

in Newfoundland and Labrador on salmon fishing and angling. With respect to the

catch and release end of it, personally, if I leave St. John's and go to River

of Ponds and drive, by the time I get there, the money on gas, money for food

and what have you, fishing equipment, maybe it will cost me $500 or $600 for a

trip but, salmon fishing in itself when we have tourists coming in to this

Province to go salmon fishing in Newfoundland and Labrador, we are starting now

to compete with countries like Russia, New Zealand and even the provinces in

Canada. We are competing with those people so, with respect to the catch and

release, people spending that kind of money, thousands upon thousands of

dollars, want to catch and keep more than probably one or two salmon on a trip,

especially in Labrador where they spend that kind of money to go to Labrador to

catch the larger fish, which seem to be more in abundance in the Labrador

rivers.

The problem I have now, too, with the tourism end of it - I

suppose it is a problem - the Department of Mines and Energy is looking at

damming rivers for electric developments, salmon rivers. One, of course, is the

Northwest River out around Terra Nova Park. It is a beautiful river, and there

have been all kinds of proposals and studies done on that, but my personal view

is that I would not be able to support damming, or putting anything in the way

of salmon migrating up stream. Now, they say they can solve the problem with

respect to salmon ladders and what have you if they dam rivers for hydro

development, but if you talk to the people who know salmon fishing and salmon

angling, they say that it does have a negative impact. If we have that many

rivers in Newfoundland, I don't really see the necessity to dam salmon rivers,

plus the fact that they say now that the demand for hydroelectricity in

Newfoundland has diminished over the years. We have people leaving the Province

right, left and centre every day, as many as, I think I heard it was ninety a

week or ninety a day, I am not sure, but with the lesser demand for electricity

in the Province maybe we do not need to dam Northwest River, or do any hindrance

at all to salmon fishing in Newfoundland and Labrador.

The Throne Speech goes on, of course, to talk about

revitalizing our rural communities, and it says: My government is committed to

the rural areas of our Province. That is a motherhood statement for sure, Mr.

Speaker. That is a motherhood statement; there is no doubt about that. Well,

that may be the case; the government may feel that it is committed to the rural

areas of our Province, but the proof is in the pudding, I suppose, and from what

I have seen over the past little while it certainly has not been demonstrating

that they are committed to rural Newfoundland, when you see community colleges

across this Province being closed down - five announced there a week or two

weeks ago in rural Newfoundland. From my estimation, I suppose, the community

colleges in the Province are stepping stones for our prosperity, I would

imagine, because we need to get our people educated. If we want to progress in

this Province, we need to get our people educated, and by closing down community

colleges, of course, we are basically making it more difficult for people in

rural Newfoundland to access post-secondary education. The government is making

it more difficult for people to access post-secondary education.

I will say that in the 1960s, when the Liberal government was

in power at the time, we had former Premier, Joseph R. Smallwood who is now, of

course, long gone -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I paid you a compliment; I hope you were

listening.

Premier Joseph R. Smallwood, in the 1960s, basically

established many of the community colleges across the Province and made

education very accessible to the people of the Province. I would imagine if he

knew what was going on in the Province today he would be rolling over in his

grave.

I give credit where credit is due. There was a lot

accomplished in the 1960s under that administration - there is no doubt about it

- but then again, I suppose that was the time of development, after the second

World War in the fifties and sixties, and what have you, and there was a lot of

money floating around; there was a lot of money floating from Ottawa. Things are

being cut back now. I understand that, but to make an attack on education in the

Province is certainly not, to my mind, revitalizing our rural communities.

Also, we have the situation in Marystown where we had the

Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology - I will be polite, I suppose -

threatening the Marystown Shipyard that if they don't get their act together

they are finished; they are gone. We expect something in the Budget maybe on

Thursday to assist him for another year or so - I don't know, hopefully. But if

the Marystown shipyard is gone, or goes, you can mark it down that there is

going to be an out flux of people from the Burin Peninsula, an out-migration of

the people of the Burin Peninsula, just as what is happening now on the Northern

Peninsula.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Do you have a problem, I ask the Minister

of Fisheries and Aquaculture?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes he does, he has a lot of them.

MR. J. BYRNE: He has a lot of problems.

AN HON. MEMBER: The people of Port de Grave have the

problem.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I would say.

Anyway, talking about revitalizing rural Newfoundland. Also,

of course, over the past number of years we have seen the cuts to the

municipalities and the downloading to the municipalities. So if that, I suppose,

is support for rural Newfoundland, people have strange ideas.

The Throne Speech goes on to address: "Public service workers

make a valuable contribution to the quality of life in our Province." It says:

"Our public service makes a valuable contribution to the quality of life in our

province." Basically, "The time has come for a new partnership with those who

serve the public." Now, Mr. Speaker, that is laughable. We know, and I brought

this up in the House of Assembly probably two years ago, that the morale in the

public civil service is deplorable. There is no morale there now, I would say.

We see that the civil service has been attacked ever since this Administration

took over in 1989 - under a new leader now, of course. They say: "The time has

come for a new partnership with those who serve the public." We saw the time for

a new partnership today with probably 1,500 to 2,000 people outside the door

calling for the Premier to come down to address them, but I didn't see him come

down to address them. So if that is the consultation and partnership with those

who serve the public -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Out of where?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Travelling outside the Province again, you

mean. Spending the taxpayers' dollars again. The $800 a day that he was used to

in Ottawa he is spending again today, is that what you are saying, to the

Government House Leader?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Those are the facts of the situation. I'm

only stating the facts.

Now, health. "Government has no greater responsibility than

to provide quality health care to our citizens." Right out of the Throne Speech.

AN HON. MEMBER: Motherhood.

MR. J. BYRNE: Motherhood, guaranteed, agreed. I agree

with that statement wholeheartedly, definitely. But now you see this statement

made, and you see the health care cuts being made, over the past couple of

years, and they will continue to be made.

I will give you an example of what is going on in this

Province today, Mr. Speaker. I had an individual call me, a young woman from my

district, who was very concerned about what was going on with someone in the

community. What had happened was we had a lady in a wheelchair in her seventies,

we have her husband who is blind, who had home care come in. What do you think

happened? They had home care cut, taken away from them, gone, just like that. I

couldn't believe it. I said: This cannot be true. I remember standing in this

House only a month or so ago in March, or two months ago, and saying to the new

Minister of Social Services that we have to have a heart, we have to have

compassion. And, well -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I was hoping that to be the case.

Now, I said: There has to be something wrong here. I checked it out and sure

enough it was true.

Only the other day I had a call from another individual, a

senior citizen who is eighty-one years old, this man, whose wife is

eighty-three, and phoned me all concerned. He is deaf. Anyway, I went down to

his house, and the doctor happened to come in while I was there. What a

coincidence! Eighty-one years old, eighty-three years old, missus in bed with a

broken hip, and I'm trying to get her into the Miller Centre. And we couldn't

get her in. This is the kind of stuff that is going on in this Province today,

downloading to the families.

Now, I will give credit where credit is due again. I did

contact the people with the Department of Social Services. The lady is still not

in hospital. They are working on it. But can you imagine having a man home who

is eighty-one years old taking care of an eighty-three year old lady who is in

bed with a broken hip, who is deaf and he has some trouble getting around

himself? I mean, isn't that an emergency situation? Shouldn't a bed be available

right off the bat, no questions asked, for someone like that? No, there are no

beds available. And this man, by the way, eighty-one years old, stays up all

night and will not take off his clothes to go to bed. Now, that is what is going

on in this Province today.

But, "Government has no greater responsibility than to

provide quality health care to our citizens." Isn't that a contradiction? But

that is reality, that is what is happening in this Province today, I say to the

Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, you will have to get Hansard and read

it again because I am not going to repeat myself on that.

Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of issues on the go in this

Province today, as I mentioned before, community colleges closing, and the

co-operation the Premier is talking about between the public civil servants, and

how we have to start working together, and what have you. I saw thirty students

get on a yellow bus the other day and drive to Ottawa to attend a demonstration

there with respect to cuts in health transfer payments. And the Premier of the

day was part of the government that made a lot of these decisions to cut

Newfoundland and Labrador with respect to equalization payments and so on.

While I am up, another point I would like to address is

education reform. Last September the Liberal Government held a referendum and

they did get a slight majority of those who voted to continue on with the very

vague question that was put forth, by the way, to continue on with their

education reform in the manner that was being put forward by the government.

That was the question, somewhere along those lines. Anyway, they got their

majority and I think people generally expected to see some major reforms quite

quickly.

We had the Premier of the day and the Minister of Education

of the day say that basically we would see Term 17 passed through the House of

Commons by Christmas 1995. Now, I remember standing and saying, all you are

doing with respect to putting that in the House of Commons is delaying education

reform, because once it goes to the House of Commons it is not going through

before Christmas. It definitely will not.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I said, in December 1995 it

was supposed to go through, but it did not go through the House of Commons. We

were told quite plainly that it would go through but they did not listen to us.

We said it would be divisive, and now, you saw in the media last week what is

happening with respect to educational reform in this Province. You can see how

it is going to be divisive. You are going to have community against community,

religion against religion, school boards against school boards. You will have

the Premier against the Minister of Education and the Minister of Education

against the Premier, one saying one thing and another saying another thing, so

that nobody knows what is going on.

The ministers opposite are going around, the Member for

Conception Bay East & Bell Island, and the Member for Lewisporte, not knowing

what is going on in their communities. All these people, and the ministers are

going around like hens with their heads chopped off. Did you ever take a hen

when you were a kid - no, I will not get into that. I did not do it myself but I

heard tell of it. Apparently, once their heads are chopped off they go around

running in all directions not knowing where they are going and bumping into each

other. Well, that is what is happening with the government opposite and it is

getting worse by the day.

People in this Province do not have any idea as to what is

happening. They do not know what is coming down the tubes. We have civil

servants who are frightened to death and do not know if they will have a job

tomorrow, or actually when they come in today if they are going out the door

this evening. People are really demoralized in this Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: That's reality.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is reality alright.

AN HON. MEMBER: Look at today's paper.

MR. J. BYRNE: What's in the paper? I did not read it.

What does it say?

AN HON. MEMBER: There is a big

article about the stress

caused by the Budget.

MR. J. BYRNE: I was preaching that two years ago, stress

caused by the Budget brought up in the House of Assembly. I know people who are

crying at their desks, afraid they are going to lose their jobs.

MR. TULK: They are all political hacks, every one of

them.

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the Government House Leader, if he

wants to talk about political hacks does he want us to get a list and produce it

in the House of Assembly?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, calm them down. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker.

MR. TULK: What about Churchill Falls?

MR. J. BYRNE: What are you getting on with about

Churchill Falls, I ask the Government House Leader?

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, there is unrest right across this

Province today, in particular with respect to education reform. As I said, NAPE

was out here today with maybe 1,500 people.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the Government House Leader, if he

wants to get up and give a speech -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member to continue.

MR. J. BYRNE: If the Government House Leader wants to

give a speech let him get up, stand on his feet and give a speech and defend the

actions of his government.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words on tax harmonization.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Do you want me to sit down and let you get

up?

AN HON. MEMBER: Jack I have to speak - I have to leave at

4:30. You can get back up again.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, okay.

AN HON. MEMBER: Can he get back up after he sits down?

MR. J. BYRNE: How much time do I have left, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Two minutes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I will save this for another day.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St.

Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, hon. members of the House,

people in the gallery, it is with great pleasure and immense pride that I stand

here in the Legislature as the Member for Placentia - St. Mary's. I thank the

voters of this historic district for having faith in me and faith in this

government's platform for electing me.

This district has been represented by many fine gentlemen

over the years and I wish to take a moment to express the gratitude of the

citizens of the former districts of Placentia and St. Mary's - The Capes to the

representatives in the 42nd General Assembly of this Legislature, Mr. Nick

Careen of Placentia district and Mr. Fabian Manning of St. Mary's - The Capes.

Both of these gentlemen worked hard for their constituents and must be commended

for their public service. This is somewhat of a dilemma for me because now that

the district is amalgamated I have to fill the shoes of not one hon. member but

of two former members of this House.

AN HON. MEMBER: No problem! No problem!

MR. SPARROW: Another facet of representing two such

important districts, in that we have been joined together as Placentia & St.

Mary's have been, is to get the district focused on working as one, overcoming

the psychological barriers that keep us thinking like two districts. We have to

start thinking east to west, west to east, Placentia - St. Mary's and St. Mary's

- Placentia. That is where we need linkage, linkage by way of thought and

linkage by way of better roads. As the member for this district it will be my

duty to seek out opportunities with the government to improve the Placentia to

Colinet road, which is Route 91 in our highway system. This new road will give

much needed employment for workers in the region, but more importantly, in this

scenario, it will get my district thinking like one district. It will boost

business in St. Mary's and it will boost business in Placentia.

Tourists who leave the Marine Atlantic ferry site in Argentia

will not just head straight to their destinations but the Air Stream corps will

meander through the roads in the district to Colinet to Mount Carmel to St.

Catherines to St. Shotts, across the whole district. When you speak about Route

91 on the scenic drive you talk tourism. The new road will continue to earn

dividends for the Province for years into the future. There are tremendous sites

on this route that are missed by many tourists, the Cataracts for one. When you

visit this scenic little park you must take time out to walk down the trail to

the base of the falls, enjoy the river, the mist and the flora and fauna. Even

the structure of the bridge is elegant, a pleasure to behold. That is a little

part of what visitors to Newfoundland and Labrador want, the beauty of our

surroundings.

The salmon restocked Rocky River is on this route and it is a

must on any angler's agenda. You cannot mention tourism and not mention the bird

sanctuary in St. Bride's. A new

interpretation centre was built there and last

year some 18,000 visitors came to the site. Further development may proceed at

this centre to meet the needs of the travelling public. This is a first-class

facility and has brought tourist dollars to St. Bride's and area.

In the proud community of Ship Harbour the residents have

continued to promote the site of the signing of the Atlantic Charter between the

United States and Great Britain. The Atlantic Charter allowed the United States

to build bases in Newfoundland in return for the lend/lease of ships to Britain.

On Atlantic Charter Day, Ship Harbour is the place to be to enjoy Newfoundland

hospitality at its best.

In historic Placentia, the annual regatta is part of

Newfoundland's Triple Crown of rowing. There are three great Regattas, the

famous Royal St. John's Regatta, the Harbour Grace Regatta, and the Placentia

Regatta. This event is held at present on the third week of July. There is now a

move afoot by the tourism committee in the area to enlarge the idea and turn

Placentia's most prestigious event not into a one-day phenomena, but into a

several day or week long tourism extravaganza. They will need help with some

planning, and they will need some dollars to make this great idea workable. If

we can keep tourists in our area for more than one day, that is what we must do.

We must do it for more than Placentia proper, but this great regatta is a great

place to start.

The last word on tourism in Placentia - St. Mary's cannot be

said without mentioning Marine Atlantic and the ferry service to eastern

Newfoundland. Argentia opens the door to the Avalon Peninsula and 60 per cent of

Newfoundland's population; yet, every year it seems Marine Atlantic finds a new

way to shorten the service to our region. In any business, the less visibility

you give your products the less they sell. My constituents feel that wha