8 (/ - ' 0 ru m ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 0 w w 0 ~ ~ 0 ~ 0 w w w h u ~ ~ ~ w M E < d~ w 0 ~ r~ ~ p, '' q H ~-· ~ ., f•l ~ () ~ ~ 1.! F-• u ::T1 f), ~ IJ w w ~ 0 1.1 0 % UJ 0 m w 1•1 ~ D ~ 0 N ~ ,, u 0 D 1-'l: D ~··I :_!: ~ ~ F;4

Decem~ar 16, 1980 Ta:;?.:! ).;~ . 2981 SD - l The E~use reet at 3:CO P.~~- ~tr. Speaker in the Chair. :1R. S?EAKER (Simms) Order, :;?lease! STATE~·1ENTS BY :1I~ISTERS )ffi . S?~; ... ~.E?. : rhe hon. the Premier . ?~.:::•!:::::?. ?'ECK?ORD : :·!= . S'Oeaker I ".-ICt.:ld like to ta!:l.!.e a~d r~~d , i!

I ~~y. a :~ =~~~ chat r ser.~ ~o che 7~L~e : .. ~i~.:.s::sr tr..-is illo.r~i::~ ::c~cern:.:1c; a ;-:-;ac -:-:!" ~: ~ ra ve i~?ort~,ce to our ?=ov~~ce . • :V!r . ?::-i::t-e >1inister : :.'ou are no doubt 3.'"are o£ the ;:=e~-: i~;o:--=a::cE o£ ~~e =ishe!:y to :--:~ ·.:-:c~n:::a._r~d .:.:tci c: :::,~ im?C.!" "":.ance ~·lhic;, :ny qc ·,·er:-u-n:r; ·c: a.: ':.:< <.'nes ':.o i cs man.:;cc::.e::<:. ::or -:~e ma:u:->uro soc.:. ... l .:one economic ~eveJc9me~~ c= ~~r ~u=al co~~i~~es . r.-eeci ~ct:. ar.1?hasize t!:ac :-.c :;c:t'l!r -:co~omi.; ~c:.i-i.l.-:y 5C ?::-c:oc~C.l: ~_: ::e.::~s c!:.e e:=onomi.:: r,.,e:.: be...:..!1:::- c: ~.his ?rovi net=. :t is ~~ re~cg;itio~ of :~:s ==~ :~t y ~~~~ ~Y gover~~ant ~as :-e7o:.e~ .a :na.j~r 90r::.ion -:f !.ts t.L1le a:-td ene=;y ::c \:!"le _onsica:c::.;:ion "l.nd .-:e··.;:cprr.e!'lt of our ;:oli.::,t =e-=c.rciin;- this st!c::cr ci the econo:;-.y. 'n u.:_r_ c~e 9ast sev.c::-al yea ~s, t\·e l':a•·e corr.missioned a :1U!l''.)e:: o:: maJor s1:t:O.ies ;:.o th~s end ar:c ~o~e believe tha:: ouc:: vie•.·:s a=e !:l-ased on a com9rehensive ana ly s.:.s of the ?lace ~.o:h.:.c:t the ::isher:r, in all of its ~s9ects, ha~ in cha C~velc9~en ~ o: o= che ?rov:~ ce a ~~e im9orta~ce of ~~e ~i3he=y ~o :·le • .. ;::o·.mcilana and ;:::e ?Cs:. ::!. .. ~ :c:1;:.:.:.bu::ion 1-:. can :ua~:e ~,... :.:"!: be~t:er:":l er..~ oi =:...4~ :=oc!:~· .r ·;v:-s -3..a~iy -:e!'lcns;:ra ced ::1 =~e =seen~ scudv by ~~s ~=o~c~!c :~u~cil o~ Ca~acia . ?~e ·tier ... ·s -==<::r :asseci the~e, i:- . _:==t:: pa~-c, be'::ai.!se :'l.C S-'C ~= ~?lei= v:e::t.v::: ·o~e:-ra ~ake:1 ~ i;~~ ::- ·..:~ :::- ::-=:-ovi:-.c:.~l ::over:x-::a:1 i:. 6c~·1rnen o:..: 1 sup~ o~:: O'..!= ~~-:-: . . . .:.:: ·;~s-:.:. ~a--:...:..~r:s ::0:!~ ::sno?e .!:1!' h

--- ,.·--· ·- Oec~mber 16 , 1930 Ta?e :>lo . 29Sl SD - 2 ?

RE.'1: ER ?E~K."'0?-9 : cc•Jbt •..thh ::h mis-ht remain co:1cer:- ing =~e cont=i~u~ :.cn o: ~;e fisheries to =ne p~ovincial econowy . ·~ty governme."lt is committee to a con-;:.:1uing exa."lli:1:n::.cn c.: : isherie s f:ol:.cy ar.C. co :he be:.:.-=: -c!'\at ics d.:!vel09!1'.e:lt: must be apprcac!":ec i:l a comorehensive mann er ~1hich ?rOVl.des ::o r i:1put and consult:at:ion by n:1 t:ho se atf ect:ed by any decision which is mace . 1It ·t~as wi1:h t.h is Ln ::1inc t:ha-; :nr go•:e r:-~:r.ent ap9 o1.n':.ed a Royal Com.-ui ssi on c:o st:ud::' o:.nese nat:ter dur :.ng tbe Surr~er o: 1980 . ~ he ::.rs t: ?art: of the Commission's NOrk is neari:-~ g comp:etion b~t a major ~art: ccncer:1ing t:!le st~ l!Ci:ure of the indust ry ·.•ill take severa: acdir.ional ::1on ths .

T!'li s 9art wiLl. involve e·<t:enslve consul:ations with af!ectec grou?S an d will be a:l essential inpuc in t:~ ;;rovL~cial policy for .:ct..:re ::isb.er: developne nt. •rt is my belief that: ~~e ce cisi cn - :naki~g proces s l"L 7 ,• ..

-L......:ftt. Decehl~G~ 16, 1980 Ta::;e No. 2982 RA - 1 PREMIER PEC:G:'ORD: of the Federal Governmer:.t mus~ take a com?rehensive view.of the role of the fishery in the Newioundlafid society as well and, to this end, must provide for effective consultation wit:.h the- Provincial Government. I am, therefore, extremely concerned about three major federal ~olicy initiatives which have great impact upon the ~ewfounaland fishery. These are the announced intent of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to establish a management region Dased in Moncton for the Gulf of St.

Lawrence fishery; (2) the introduction, in January 1981, of a new licensing policy for fishermen which carries with it, fer the first time, the notion of an explicit quota for the inshore fishery; thirdly, the directions being taken regarding the allocation of offshore fish stocks, principally northern cod, to foreign nations in return for trade concessions of dubious value: Let me say, Mr. Speaker, in the last couple of days the Minister of Fisheries for Newfoundland (Mr.

Morgan) and myself ~ave been deluged with telegrams and fishermen coming in from all over the Province ccnplaininq about the recently instituted, or about to be instituted new fish licensing policy which we expressed concerns about weeks and wee~s and months ago in our consultation with the Federal Government. 'Regarding the decision to establish a Gulf Region, this initiative was announced without any prior consultation with the Government of Newfoundland even though it represents a fundamental change in the decision-ma~ing pro- cess affecting fisner~en along the entire west and southwest ~ossts of this Province.

The rationale for this decision has ~ever been satisfactorily explained and does not seem to carry ivith it any benefit for :;;[e<.vf::JUndland fishermen who are affected by it ' - ~ ·, .--:.

........ ...

Dece.m;:,ez: 16, 1980 Tape ~o. 2982 ~~ - 2 P~E~~~ ?ECKFOPn: ~~'1c I might add tba t I ;,ave g:::-.:at di::icul!:.y L• :inding a::1ybody L t3l!<~C.:. co, \·;hose ::. name s ".-'oulc remo:in to.:ally anony11\0us, :1a\ ·ins any- -:::hing to do '··ri!:h t.he Fede::::-al Gove:nment and fisher:.es polic:t :.:1 t:le ?ederal Gove:-n:nent <~i::o sices .__.it;, this policy. 'Regardi~g che initiative con - .::e::n ing the allocation of fish quotas to foreign :-~at:ions, ~e direction of tr~ ~race :"legot:ia~ons is clearly opposed co tile advice o: .my Gover:unent , the Eishir.g incus:::-:.; ~nd the represe!"ltatives of ':he fishe:!:!llen's ~.::-~ion . 1 have writ';en ;;o the hon. ~lark ~lacGuigan, ~linls-:::er of External ~ . .::airs, and to che hon . se:::-b Gray, ~ii.:uste:::- or Ind~,:r.=ce a."Xi Ccnr. .erce, explaining in dec .ail t:he :undamental error of the present ?Olicy and requesting a thorough review of t!le ?res e:1t ?OSt:ure of r.he C-overnment of Canada in ::.'lis ::egarC. . ~.lso, :ny 1-tinist:er of ?1.s~e:-:.es, the :1on.

Jame s 'tor;an, has oade a ~iiect ~pproach co the hon . Romeo LeBla:1c objecti~; to this trade strate gy . 7.3 ~.· J

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 2983 EL - l PREMIER PECKFORD: 'Regarding the new licensing policy, I must point out that no other .initiative has so pr::;::'cund an impact on the social fabric of virtually every c::,mmunity of this Province as does this action. Indee~ the consideration of this matter is one of the expli=it terms of reference of the Royal CoiDQission to which I referred previously.

Because of the importance of decisions in this area, my Government believes that it i~ critical that no precipitous or irrevocable steps be taken to a.:.t.;r an individual's right to enter the fishery ·.vithout 'lery serious thought by Governments nor without pro'v"iding the widest possible opportunity for public hearings on the det2il of the ~easures being considered. 'Furthermore, the notion of an explicit quota fer the inshore fishery with its spectre of closing this fishery before the end of the traditional season, req'.lires a complete review of the process by which quotas are established.

Again the requirement for public hearings as part of this process is clearly indicated. 'From the foregoing, you will see ~hat from our perspective there has not tee~ sufficient or proper consultation with the Government of Newfoundland on these matters. It is my belief that the kind of consultation which is necessary ~or coordinated action will only be poss­ ible when responsibility for these decisions is jointly held.

This 0elief was at the center of our proposals fer concurrent jurisdiction during the constitutuonal discussions and I ~ convinced that present evidence demonstrates the necessity of achieving constitutional change. 7 g [, fl

~ December 16, 1980 ape No. 2983 EL - 2 :?RP'1IE!I. ?ECKF ORD : 'Ir.. cor..clusior., I vlould re- empha - si ze :t~.y gl:::!.V E: concern ove::: the th.cee s peci.: ic init.:.a tives ~o which I hav e referre~ and urge that the ~rocess of im?l~­ entati.c r. of these initiatives be suspended unti:i . :;uch tim e as !:lore >;Y.tansive ccnsult.ations can ta ke place, and we have the benefit o f the findings of the Royal Cornmissio:l present ly E<Xaminir.g ::he Newfoundland fi~hery .

Mo:::eover , ! • . .;ould urge -hat any ?roposals for such ::u~da:rne_ ntal change in the fishery be subjectec to a proces s of ?ublic hearing s before decisi~ns are finally taksn and t~at an y sue~ decision, when taken be r~asoned in l ight of the evide:1ce presented.' ' Yours sincerely.' Mr . Speaker, there is not~~g today ~r tomor ro1~, yesterday or dec:!.des t o come that is gcing to more affect the l ives of ever'j si~gle one in thi s hon .

He use and everyone in this Province than -r.he way ~o.·e :nanage and institute new po licies on the fishery and the kine oi teaction that is haooe!"!in g s.roun.:i this Prov::nce righ-c no·"' as it: relates to a '1U.:nber of these measure s - Monctc~ offi ce, the licen s ing policy and all t:.e rest t..i-lat were discu sse d with the Federal Government mon~,s ~~d months ago by us -leave s · a lot to be desired l..re co no"': ask a · ·~ ·"

iJecembe:!: 16, 1980 TaiJe No. 2984 mv - 1 PP.E~liER PEC:<:FORD: =or 100 per cent of anything. "Je ask for a share in the decis.Lon making and massive cons~ltation, not only with us but with the people most af=ected,throuqh a public hearir.q r:>rocess. Without that we are in 0;rave danqer of seeing our traditional, our ~resent and our future major industry taking a course ~hich I do no think is in the best interest of this ~rovince in the short, medium or lonq-Eerm. SOr>'E HON . VTE'1BERS: _l!R. S?EP.i~ER (Simms): Opposi ti--:m. "'~. L. S'.nRLING : Hear, hear! The hon. the Leader of the Thank you, ~1r.

Sr:>eaker . This was the first time that I heard t~e Premier make this kind of impassioned and sensible sounding statement. I \vould be here thumr:>inq e1y C.esk. and saving, 'Hear, hear' exceiJt last Summer, "'r. Soeaker, we did qo through a fisheries strike. 'The:::-e was a roval corn..T11.ission set uo •l'li. thnut one iota of consultation with the fishe~er SO~E EON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear! ~R. L. STIRLING: - without any consultation ·.vi th t!'J.e federal goverr.ment.

And when in this House ·,;e ask. a minister, for example, on another ~ieee of legis­ lation on the U??er Churchill;r.id vou consult with the federal qoverrunent?' lmd the minister savs to us, 'lvho us? Consult? We are indeoendent, we are IJrovincial, 'l'le do not tell Ottai.-Ta, ;ve do not go cao in hand, we do our own thing.' Mr. ~oeaker, where •,vas the Premier 'A'nen there ;-Tas a set of incruiries that went all over this Province ::i.ookin·;- into licensing, the '·Thole of the ?rc•vinc.:e includinq the Island, Newfoundland and Labrador. We!:. I will tell yo~ what ~e are croino to do, ~r.

Soeaker, I am leaving tonighc to ~o to Ottawa because I want to meet with the federal ~eocle 7q4?

Decerrbe= lu , 19Sn Tape ~c. 2984 DN - 2 "~3. . :.. 51'!?-L:::NG: to find vut ~"ha~ is qc:. ::g on ir. ::nese sa<~~e areas. And I o,.!Ould su ggest that maybe if Ll-Je ?=~mier lvould li!<"e it I t..ri:;.l t=v to se;: up an ap?oint ·- .a~nt :'·:)'C him sc that he can - SOV_E H'JN • '1E.'1BERS : !iear, hear ! ~ . L.

STIP.LING : - qet a~.,ay from this cor: - fr onta~ion anc reactino a iter ... ~ ... is too late . .:titer it is t:::l v !a~e . !lo.fte r· t~e :'ishermen ?lave t;scei ·>'ed these notices, the ?:-emier has found cut th at there is a "is her·1 . :-.io\.,r thc-t. he is cor.ce:::ned ~if . ~9 eaker . no~ with ao:.r.cr anyt~ing about solvi~g t~e oroblem cecause he still has no~ talked to the ?i shermen's u ~on abcu;: anv of t!'le ?roblems deal ina with t:he :isherv , he is too =i g for t~at, he ca~not soeak on ~ehalf of the :ishe.!:illen . So, ~ r .

Speaker, when I de arrive in OttaMa ~onight a.nd r do brine:: up these questions , if the Premier wou~d like to aet back to a ~o~al ~ela - ti.or.shi.o ·t~ith Ot'::.a• ,..ra, chen I • . .,rill be qlaC. to try co arr.anqe a rneeti~s on his behalf . Because, ~r. s~eaker, not o n 1~ . .rit:.h -:his crovernrner.t but Nhen chis Oo?Osi cion, '"'h3n there ··as a =ederal ?C governme nt in Ot ca\.,ra , ·,.,rhen there ;.,ras a. ~isheries conference about the Norther~ cod stock L, ':.he Swr.'ller of 1978 •". ~ ...

December 16, J.980 Tape No. 2985 NM - l ~-"R.. STiRLING : ,.,hen liT a.} ter Carter was then the :"<linister of Fisheries, .:;.nd man after man on this side got up and said, "Are you going to have some input before the Northern cod stock. i3 decided and given :!way? What \'lil:L you do?" And the Premier sat there with his sick little smile and said, "No way am I JOing to that. ;'ie will send civil servants. " And now we know the reason. i'ie .<now the reason, Mr.

Speaker, is because he is much more interested in this g-:-andstand kind of thing in which he •;~~ri tes a letter to the Prime Minister, and does net have the decency to wait until ~he letter arrives at the ?rime Ministe:::-'s Office before he tables it in the House of Assembly. SOME HON. ro!EMBERS : MR. S. NEARY: MR. STIRLING : Mr. Speaker - MI~. NEARY: MR. STIRLI::JG: Hear, hear! Sh.ame, shame! What it is is one more step, ~Vh.a. t a P!:'ernier. - one more step in the confrontation type of aspect, the grabbing the publicity. The sa::ne Premier, Mr.

Speaker, if he would only get off his anti-federal kick and realize of course on this side we supported the stand on the Northern cod stock, and of course there must be consultation, out it is a bm way st:::eet. It is a tw·o •~Vay street. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. STIRLING: linaudible) dow-:1 yesterday !_inaudible) . It is a twc way street, Mr. Speaker.

And it· is the same problem that once the Premier gets into trouble '"-i tfi the oil companies on the offshore, he says, "~Then it is in our judgement to tell the people of Newfound2_and what is going on, then in our judgenent we will tell t:1em." Anci that is what is happening here, 11r. Speaker, a ?ieee of the kind of garba_ge that you can expect from the Premier who C.oes not •.-~ant to consult. If he had made th.:.s back in c-ia:•, 'N"hen he •.-as first elected, May of '79, you would understand. 794L

December 16, 1980 Ta-r;>e No. 2985 NM - 2 ~. STIRLING: But !l.e is 1101•' doing this kind of thing a year and a half after he is in offi~e. -~1 HC'~. MEMBER: Shame! Shame! MR. STIRLING: So I will repeat, Mr. Speaker; I de inte:1d to go to Ottawa, :;: have the same concerrsand I will be qlad to set up an appointment if the P::-ernier would like to get back to a normal federal /provincial operation. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ~~. SPEAKER (Simms}: Any ~urther s~a~ements? :-!R. THQ'1S : (Ina~dible) let ter to the Prime Minister before it was (i~audible). MR. SPEA...'I:ER: Order, please! Order! Order! The hon.

Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOuDIE: Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to p::-esent to the House at ;:his ti!lle information about some significant acti•fi ties with respect to our agricultural industry. I would remind Your Honour that agriculture is the production of food in which the ever increasing transportation costs, and the increasing world demand for food, the expansion of food production here in our Province is a most worthy and justifiable pursuit. Recently there have been reports about rising land prices and land specultation in the St.

John's urban region, and that this may jeopardize the farmers in the area. I remind members of this hen. House that several years ago goverfu~ent zoned some of t~e best soil resources in the St. J-:Jhn' s urban region for agricultural use. This action :,-;as taken because farm land was being permanently lost at an alarming rate t!l.rough urban expansion. I am happy to ..., - I y ~ :;

December 16,1980 Tape No. 2986 AH-1 - -~ffi-;;- GC'BDf-:8-:-- - - - report that the trend has reversed in recent years and that production of agricultural food products from that ar~a has increased. As examples,in the last tt-;o years milk procuction i!'lcreased by one million pounds or six per cent, hoqs and chicken on farms increased by thrity-one and twenty per cent respectively, turnip production is up by ten per cent,while carrot production increc>.sed by 11ineteen per cent.

Farmers are now respondin:;, in the confidence that there is a future for the ~gricultural industry,by investing their time and financial resources in expansion of their farm units. Dairy farmers have traditionally imported most of their hay,but this year a group of them are clearing and developing a large area of Crown land near r.he Soulds for forage production to. replace L~ports. The farmers are to be commended for their actions and their positive response to the zoning of agricultural :and is gratifying.

I mean add that the preservation of this agricultural land was also a request to the ~ewfou~d~and and Labrador nranch of the Consumers Associatio~ of Canada a few years ago. As the result of the agricultural land zoning,the oil exploration and the possibility of oil production off our coast should not permanently or e1ren temporarily disrupt farming activities. ?-ather. the benefits of such activities could be used to build a more prosperous farming base to supply an increasinq demand fo:::- fresh local produce. Oil is a nor.-renewable resource that would expend itself within a definite period of time.

Food ~olill always be an necessity and its production on a sustained basis must be insured with pro[Jer management of farms and farmland. Soil surveying and land use planning activities are progressina well in other areas of the ?rovince 1-1hich have a potential for further agricultural developi:ler;o: .- It is expected ~hat within the next year it will be possible to 7 tj L.. 8

December 16,1980 Tape ~o. 2986 AH-2 ~1.?. GOUDIE: take actions to preserve these soil resources to ensure ar. agricultural industry for far:r.ers, •:onsurners and, most importantly 1 for future generations in our Province. Government,through my deparG~ent ,has conducted an <llvareness campaign for the marketinq of locally produced agrici.lltural products. A consumer survey was conducted and it indicated enthusiastic acceptance of the locally produced prod1;.cts. Ne,vfoundland Farm Products Corporation J:as recently started to process local pork into high quality bacon and hams.

Prior to this the ra',; materials had been sent out of the Province for further processing. The important link in the food system is the farmer. They hold the key for expansion, import substitution and great selfsufficiency in food products. They are to be commended and encouraged in their pursuit of technology and manac;:rerial skills to improve the efficiency of the food system and the viability of their businesses. My department is emphasizing, and considers critically important the development of human resources in the aaricultural industries. In conclusion, ~'r. Speaker, a food supply is important to us all.

By the active particlpation of farmers in the programmes which this government is making available to them,I envisage that they will increase production providing,of course, they receive ~ore co-operation from the weather than experienced this year. 90ME HON. !-'!E~1BERS : Hear, hear! 7 s ~ 7

December 16, 1980 !-1R. SPEAKER (Simms ) : Eagle River. lffi. HISCOCK: -:.· Tape 2987 EC - 1 The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I would like to ~h~1k the minister for an advance copy of the statement. It is a very general statement, one of motherhood and one on which we cannot disagree on this side.

It is a report, basical:y, on what is happening to agricu lture in our ?rovince and we should be very thankful for the DREE pro<;rrarnrn.e providing 90 per cent of the funding, so much so that we cannot spend all the money that the federal government have given to us under this programme and through the administration, the bureaucracy here in this Province we are not expanding agriculture et the rate that we really should be doing. One of the, I think, excellent programmes is one of the soil resources, S·.Jil s~rveys throughout the Province and identifying agricultural land.

This is long overdue and it is particularly needed. The minister pointed out that hogs and chickens on farms increased by 31 per cent and 20 per cent. The hog industry here in this Province is in great financial trouble and i~ depending on the Department of Agriculture to ~orne up with some subsidization because Quebec is basicaL!.y trying to take over the hog producing market in Atlantic Canada as well as in Quebec itself, ~~d also the lambs and mutton. Hopefully, the government will come up with some subsidy to the hog producers and the sheep producers in this Province.

I •.vould to also ask the minister if he can report later to L~is House the impact of pasture land being taken away from Crown lands or from the government and put in the hands of private enterprise. Has this proven to be successful? Are any of the 7 'j ~ R

Decenber lo, 1980 Tape 29 87 EC - 2 :>8.. HISCOC:<: past~re lands closec cow~ this year because the gover~e:1t is :1.0t ~'.l=:.ng t.'le.11 or are they workL,g cut? The other t~:.:1.g I wo'.lld like 1:0 poi:1t out is wi~h regard to !:ia=keting . Ma=keting is an extremely importan1: sys1:em i.n agriculture.

If we do not continue to e:<pc.nd our marketing system and t:ie l c c~ gether and have agricultural products dcwn on the No=t:hern Peninsula and on the 3ona vista Peninsula and t~e Burin Peninsula and in Codroy Valley , i.: 1ve do not have a way of tying all these p:-oducts :.ntc one \·larehouse, 1~1: u£ say, and then distribut:e them L~rcugho~t ~he Province, chej all che expansion is no t going to oe of any avail .

One of the prcbl~s ~~at we are having is that the larqe super.narl<ets '.>'ill :10t buy bulk pro~ucts :rom us because they say we can~ot assure them of a continuous supply; there:ore, ~~ey or:. ng them fro~ t:he ou1:side - L~port potatoes, carrots anc t~r:1.ips. Su..--vey after sur vey in chis P:-ovi:tce has sho1-m that •,;e can export turnips to the 2ast:ern Seaboard of the United States and Atlantic Canada and w-e pri:le ou rselves no\v on having an increase of 10 per cenc . Hopefully, :>lr . Speaker , we will get ir.1:0 the business of expor ting root crops .

Another thing ! would like to poi~t ouc is chat •,;e shc•Jlc stress ti:.ac here in ac;ri~ultu:-e that the only money chat is 7S~4

Dece~~er 16, 1980 Tape No. 2988 SD - l MR. E. HISCOCK : given to the far~er is that for capital , c.apital for i.."luild.ing and equipment, and that is extremely important,but also where the farmer like the fishermen need money to invest in seed and various other parts of the agricultural industry has to get into extra mcney. So, ~!r. Speaker, I would hope that this government will continue to have a more efficient operation of agriculture, it is extremely important, and also that '.ve •will come up r.vith some programmes of subsidization to the hog industry and also more money for other than capital.

Thank you, :--1r. Speaker. Drojects SOHE HON. 'Y!EMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Any further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS M."\. SPEAKER: MR. L. THCMS: The hon. member for Grand Banks . Mr. Speaker, I have a question I would like tc direct to the ~inister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) . The police protection given to the cit~zens of St. John's is, I believe, and in the opinion of a great number of other people, totally inadequate especially from the period from six o'clock in the evening until six o'clock the next morning.

My question to the minister is that with the expansion of the ~oyal Newfoundland Constabulary to Mount Pearl , will the minister consider now the - one of the problems right now is the length of time it takes the police to answer a call; somet2.mes thirty minutes, sometimes forty-five minutes. Would the minister consider the creation of police precincts for the city of St. John's and Mount Pearl? ~!R. SPEAKER: The hon. the ~!inister of Justice. MR. OTTENHED!ER : Mr.

Speaker, as I understand i~ with the concept of precincts certainly, you know, thinking in terms cf, you know, quite large metropoli~an areas 7 .-1 '~. n

December 16, 1980 Tape ~o. 2988 SD - 2 ~lR. OTTENHEIMER: with, you know, quite long distances between one part and the other. Mount Pearl, of course, with the new Access Road,now is probably closer to the police headquarters than many many parts of the city, ~ou know, to get from the police headquarters of :i:'ort Townsend to ~1ount Pearl wo".lld probably be quicker than getting from that police headquarters to many areas of the city in the Easterr1 extre!ni ty . and probably perhaps the Waterford Bridge ~oad, Cowan Heights or Cowan Ave!lue area.

So, you know, I de not think tb.e dista!lce or the time is really a factor, I think that it WOI.lld be possible to ;o :rom Fort Townsend to Mount Pearl more quickly with less traffic than it would be from ?ort Tmvnsend to !nany parts within -che present city boundaries. So I do not, you know, see that the precinct !natter is really .-qermane in the sense of Mount Pearl; it is another corrmuni-cy , another municipality but in terms of driving distance I think it is orobably shorter than many areas within the present roundaries,it would be quite a bit shorter.

I have no-c driven directly from Fort Townsend to Mount Pea::::l,but I think that would be much more quickly driven than from Fort Townsend to many areas within the present municipal boundaries of St. John's. So I do not think the fact of ~!ount Pearl coming within the jurisdiction of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, you know, is a £actor in the question of precincts. In my opinion, it is not. 1-l:R. L. THOf\15: Well, ~ill you set up precincts in St. John's? 7 g ,:,

~ecember 16, 1980 Tape No. 2989 EL - 1 Yl.R. OTTENHEIMER: It is not our intention to so d~ right now; it is not our intention to set up precincts now. One of the big problems there is I think 'tlhen one thir~s of precincts one is usually ~hinking of much larger areas and much larger populations. Really what they are is s~b-headquart~rs and it is not just an office, you know, it is a sub-headquarters with its or,;n - it has to have some clerical staff as well as per!'lanent pro'fessional staff so you would be - let us say you had seven precincts.

You ;,;auld be having seven,in a sense, layers of bureaucracy as well. And, you know, we think that by, number one, given the area of St. John's and given the population,that one well-staffed, well-manned modern,with a large amount of computerization, which the present headquarters does have, that this is the best way of providing the centralized service for the nerve centre, if you wish, of the police force,rather t~an having seven or eight sub-headquarters, all of which would require a certain clerical and bureaucratic infrastructure.

Other­ wise they would not, you know, they '"'auld not function, so I do not think that as the population and demography of matters are now, that there would be any advantage; indeed I think there would be a disadvantage. .l1R. THOHS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): member for Grand Bank. I>JR. THOMS: A supplementary, ~x. Speaker . A supplementary, the han. Mr. Speaker, the present system is obviously not working and obviously the Department is not giving that much consideration to L~proving it. However, I would like to ask the ~inister that now with the transfer of the parking by-law enforc;:ments to the city of St.

John's, what are, if any, the financial arrangements between the government and the city in connection wit~ that? 785/

~ecember 16 , :sao Tape )jc . 2989 SL - 2 !·Lq. 5?:.:.:1_'<2:~ (Simms) : T~e han . the Y~n~s~e r o= Justice. H.q. O'!''i'ENHSIMER: ;H;::h respec~ ;::o the transfer of t~e enforcement of the municipal by -laws from the con ­ stabula•y ~o the munici?al council, ~umber cne, we are hoping ~at will take place the first of February. I carmot ;ive a specific dace,but between t~e first of February and ~he first of April,and it: may well .b' e by the first: of February .

Nhat the arrangements which have been discussed anc agreed with the council are, well ,the si~uation always was that the revenue fr-om metres -;.;ent to t!"!e city . 2oweve::, the revenue from eines for metre offenses had, and do now , accrue to the Province, with, however , t!1e cit~ cndertaking -;.;hen the city does, in !act:, ~~dertake the responsib ility for h~ring and obviously ?ayi~g ~e ?ersonnel co enforce t!le met re regulations chen t:hat: reve:1ue \-.rill go to the cit:y . rt ha s been agree d that: there w~uld be a ten per cent:, ten per cent would be then cransfer ::ed back fro m ~~e c~~~ to t:he Cro·Nn and this in recogn~t~on of 7 '3 j 4

December 16, 1980 Ta:::Je No. 2990 Dh' - 1 ~R. G. OT1ENHEI~ER: the administra~ive expenses that the government has in terms of the Traffic Court 1and this is the only area in the Province where there is a court specifically for traffic offences.

So the revenue from the ~eters will continue to go to the city,that always did r and the fines '•ihich '"auld accrue from summons for meter offences would go to the ~cit·(, lvhich cer­ tainly a?oears to be fair enough since they are employing and paying for the personnell enforcing those by-laws,with a 10 oer cent come back in recog­ nition of the administrative expenses the Province undertakes. !\1R. L. TH0"1S: A final suoolementary, ¥tr. Soeaker. MR. SPEAKER (Si~ms): A final supplementar•r, the hon. me~er for Grand Bank. ~~1:1.. L. THOl'IS: Mr.

Soeaker, this is a sup- olemef'.tary I am sure the Minister of Education (~~s. Verge) would like to know the answer too as well. Now that we have voung ladies in the Royal Newfoundland Constabularv 1 is there any indication when the Police Brotherhood 'llill be changing its name to reflect this? MR. SPEAKER: The han. ~inister of Justice. 1-lR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Well, '1r. S1Jeaker, I have not heard. I suppose that will be an internal matter. I am not sure if they will change it from brotherhood to sister- hood or oersonhood.

I suppose it will just be an associa- tion,but I think that will be an internal matter that t~ey will have to '.vork out themselves. 111R • L • THO~~,!S : on it? You are not going to insist 793 ..

Decembe~ 16, l9SO Tape ~o . 2984 mv - 2 :>!R . G . OTTSNHEL'1ER : I am not a membe r of the org an- ization . It «oulc ~ a gross inter:erence for me to inter ­ £ere . ~!R . SPEAK~ (SL-:ms) : Orc!e~, please! Other meobe~s should ~o c be standing '-ihile the Hini ster of Justice (~tr . Ottenhei:-ner ) is still answ ering his question . ~R . G. OTTENaELMER : sub ject, Sir . ~!..~ . SPEAKER : 3uc!lans. ~!\ .G . FLIGZ.:T : The hon . Hinister o: Juscice . ! chink I !lave covered the ':'he ~on . rne:nl::e-1: :cr ;~incisor - :-tr. Speaker, I {·iould normally ask this question to the Minister of Hines anci E~ergy (:O!r .

Barry) but I ''ill ask the Premier in hi s absence .

As the Premier knows, the Buc!lans mining situation are winding dv~~ their operacion o~ ~e deposits teat they have bee~ working :or ~~is past fi:t: years, and there is so~e ~ope c!lat: the ope~at~on «ill coniinue ~ased on che Asarco and ~it:~~~ -?~ice's intention to develop and to ~r i:1 g into ?rod~.:ct io n :~e•.-1 ore bodies . ne is familiar with the Tulk ore body and no{ ·J a ne\ ·1 ore body in the ,.,.r .... rks - now a new ore bocy - so I ·.-ould ask the ?remier with the k:~owledge that. they are ::epo~ting regularly to qov er nment, to 1-1ines and Energy, :o~ o uld t~e Premier tell us what tha~ ccrn?any's i~ter.ticns are wi~, re gard to the development ana p~oouction o! those ne« or~ ~ocy, :elks i:l ?articular.? )1R .

SPEAKER : The hen . the P~emier. 7 s .:. :;

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 2991 NM - l 2REMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I think, if my memory serves me correctly, that there was some additional assessment going on now through the Fall and Winter to determine the exact nature of the exploration activity this past Summer and Fall as it relates to T~lks, to get a handle on it. As the hon. member undoubtedly knows,there has been various figures of both grade of ore and tonnaqe of ore ranging from anywhere from .81 per cent to 1.2 on the ore, I think, and all the way from around 500,000 tons ~o 1.2 million tons as it relates to the Tulks property.

I think ttose are the parameters as it relates to grade and as it relates to tonnage. On the other one, I have not got the facts before me on the old workings a::1d the new discovery and how much is there.

So what we have done in response to those kinds of positive indications from Price and Asarco is said that we are prepared t·o sit down '"'ith them and to negotiate some infrastructural costs and share some infra- stru~tural costs with them as it relates to access by road to Tulks an~ the mixture of both the Tulks ore deposi~ with the new discovery in the old workings, to bring about a ~airly stable, hopefully production scenario for the next five years. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary. ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: Would the Premier indicate to the House, or to me, whether or not those companies have specifically requested government assistance, government funding for the infrastructure he refers to with regard to the Tulks ore bodv ? I understand that he is not ver y much aware of t~e other one MR. SPE..~KER: The hon. t~e PreDier. ?RE! ·!IER PECXFQRD: Mr. Speaker, in most of the correspondence,and I stand to be corrected, there has been an 7S5h

December 16, 1980 '!'ape No. 2991 N~! - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : ~ndication, and I suppose perhaps the han. member's meetings with the company and people in Buchans might bear this out as well, that the=e has been some indication,because they were not sure of the exact tonnage and grade and then price of the coiDmodity, that they might be looking t0 ~ov~rnment for some infrastructural costs as it relates to Tulks. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary. ~~- SPEAKER (Simms ): A final supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Suchans, followed by the han. member for LaPoile. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, as the Premier knows, with regard to mining and mining operations, there is no guarantee that the Tulks ore body will be developed or brouaht to production, there is no guarantee that the other ore body he refe~s to will be brought into production. So it may be for 'Tarious reasons that we may see the end of the mining in the next months,and that is Abitibit-Price and Asarco's estimate, that if they do not go into new production the minE' will sJ,ut down.

So I would ask the Premier, his having ~hat ~r.owledge, his being aware of that fact, what contingency plans he has to ta ke care of the population, the working force of Buchans in the event that happens? ~R. SPEAJa:R: 'rhe hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, from all the indications coming out of Buchans and from the companies in the last fe>v months, we have been looking more optimistically that it wi:l not close down in the next two or three months, but rather enter in~o negotiations vli th them for 7S57

December 16:, 19.80. Tape. No. . 2 9 .92 RA - 1 PRE."1IER PECKPORD : continuation of B~chans based on Tulks and the discoveries in the old properties, Obviously if .:hat does not come about, ''le are going to have to place all the contingency plans we can for re-location fer new job opportunities for those people, Obviously there is a need to stabilize at a certain level of t.he Buchans populat- ion, that there will always ne a Buchans and that you have to bring into operation certain things, not to keep it at its · present level of population but somewhere close to ·~ ~ .....

But there might be thos:.e 'tl'ho would elect to go to other job opportunities and, of course, we cannot interfere wit~ in- dividual liberty and their right to move if they so want to. >-le will not necessarily encourage that and \ve will try to stabilize the Buchans economy to ensure that it remains a viable community. That will not he easy to do in the short ter!ll.

However, I think, given all the resource identifications that have gone on in the Buchans area over the. last four or five years to see what other industry can be brought to bear in that area, the barite one is perhaps the most ?ossible one, albeit is only twenty-five or thirty jobs: in the initial stages of the development, but Buchans was founded upon ore bodies and one would like to think. that these t\llO latest eevelopments both in the old workings and in the Tulks deposit will see that the ore development in Buchans will continue to play a major role in the developm~~t of that community, ¥R.

FLIGHT: A final supplementary. MR, SPF'.AI<E:R: I indicated a final sup:;Jlementary, unless the hon. member for LaPoile wishes to yield. MR. NEARY: r yield. MR . SPEAKER: A fi nal supplementary: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. 7 g ::; R

Decerr~er 16, 1980 Tape No. 2992 Rl\. - 2 MR. FLIGHT: I thank the member for LaPoile for yielding, Mr. Speaker. But I am wondering in view of what the Premier said about stabilizing the Buchans economy in t~e event mining does not continue that he will take ad- vantage of all the research that has been done and all the reconmendations of the various - ~!R. R. MOORES : Task forces. MR. r'LIGHT: - task forces and the various possibilities to stabilize the economy and he says that he will do that.

How does he tiein that, h~w does he reconcile that with his position on refusing to further fund the Buchans-Burgeo Road, the one road that all the reco~~endations he has is based on? Row does he square that with his refusal to continue the Buchans-Burgeo Road? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. 'PP~MIER PECKFORD: There are many components which go into the establishment of a viable community: One of them has to do with transportation, others have to do with resource development. So there is one cam~onent of many, many com- ponents for the continued existence of Buchans which has to be considered.

The question of an additional road access to Buchans is only one of many, many components, and all the components have to be looked at in their totality and not isolating either one particular factor as the ~nd-all and be-all for Buchans. SOME HON. Mn~BERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. S. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, members of the House are aware, I presume, of the serious implicatic.ns and the serious consequences for residents of Labrador West as a result of a report. 7 q:::Q - ,_)

December 16, 1980 Tape 2993 EC - 1 1-IR. NEARY: done py the =ederal DeparL~ent of the Environment that proves beyond any doubt that the air over Wabush and Labrador City is polluted to the extent that it creates a health hazard. I would like to ask the minister responsible for the environment (Mr. Dawe) if he has received a copy of this report? MR. SPEAKER (Sinuns): Environment. MR. DAV-IE: copy of the report today . MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. The han. the Minister of the Yes, Mr. Speaker, I received a Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, obviously the hon. gentleman has not had an opportunity to read the report, but it is of such a grave nature in that the lives of these people, men, women anu children, our fellow Newfoundlanders and Labradorians in Labrador West are endangered, because the report stated, I think, beyond any doubt that there is a health hazard 1 Would the han. gentleman indicate to the House what action he intends to take on this report after he has had an opportunity to browse through it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of the Environment. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, early in October officials of my department,plus some other departments, met with I.O.C. to discuss certain issues w~th regard to the monitoring of dust in the air and so on in that area. As a result of that meeting, a letter has gone from me to the Iron Ore Company of Canada asking them to submit 7Sfln

December 16, 1980 Tape 2993 EC - 2 MR. DAWE: to my department a compliance

schedule which would reduce the amount of emissions. Since 1977, there has been a continuous monitoring programme of dust emissions from I.O.C. in Wabush and of dust emissions from the tailings. This has resulted in a number of discussions over that period of time, which are coming to a head now with regard to a compliance

schedule for the company to get involved in reducing ~he amounts of dust that is being emitted into the air. There is a further meeting scheduled for January of the New Year, when we will be discussing further action, both with rega~d to the company and additional monitoring by the deparbnent. HR. NEARY: A supplementary, Nr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (Si~~s): A final supplementary, the hon . the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the han .. the minister and also encourage him at the same time to give this matter high priority in the minister's department.

I would like to ask the han. gentleman if he would indicate to the House if this matter is going to be given priority over and above all matters in his deparb~ent, a matter where the people's lives and their health are affected by this pollution in the air, caused by the mill and the production of iron ore in Labrador City and Wabush? I think, Mr. Speaker, that might give the people down there some reassurance that something will be done about it. I am glad to hear there is going to be a meeting in the Ne\oJ Year.

But I would like for the hon. gentleman to tell us just what priority this matter rates in his department? MR. SPEAKER: Environment. l>lR. DAWE: The hon. the Minister of the Mr. Speaker, this particular 7 q ,- -: - 0

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 2994 EL - 1 MR. WINDSOR: issue,~s well as a number of issues arour.d the Province,all have big~ priority based on the particular circumstances. I might point out to the House that my colleague, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (J.Dinn) 1and his departmer.t through Occupational Realth and Safety has had a programme, I think, amounting to some $2 million tn studying the various health hazzards and dust control situationsat that partinclar site 1 and in co-operation with his particular department in that section, our department has been working .

I can assure the House and the hon. member for LaPoile(S. Neary) that we are doing every­ thi~g that we can to ensure that those dust emissions will be reduced in the future . MR. BENNETT: ~~. SPEAKER (Simms) : ~~. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for St. Barbe. Thank you, Mr.Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Social Servic~s. The Minister of Social Services Mr. Speaker, cou~d the minister tell us if he has plans in place to increase the subsistance allowance presentl y received by the widows of this Province? MR. SPEAKER: MR. BENNETT: Did you hear the question, Mr.Minister?

The hon. member for St.Barbe. Does the minister have, at present time does the minister have plans to increase the present subsistance allowance that our widows, the widows of this Province are getting? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. Y!R. HICKEY Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. gentleman for giving me the opportunity to inform the House about all of the things we have done to increase the allowances 7j(

i) Oec~~er 16 , 1980 !'ape :-Jo. 2994 EL - 2 :.ffi . H.!CKEY: co recipients cf Social Ass- istance since 1972 . That 111as che government t: .at brought in the policy of indexing social assistance to the cost of liv~g and we have .tried desperately sinc e thac time to stay wi thir. that policy . It is a very costly venture, ·11e have not been able to keep pace ~~ith inflation, bu.-. year after year after year ,culminating , Mr .

Speaker, with last year a ten per cent inc=ease to recipients -and I am aware of the difficulties faced by some of them_ L'l addition to that, the=e is approximately one million dollars in oy bud­ get under the heading of Special Needs, where 1-1e deal with special specific cases where there is hardshii? and tf:ere is another category of addtional assistance. So, ~ - Speaker, ?q&:.

December 16,1980 Tape No. 2995 AH-1 1·1EL HICKEY: the government is doing e·rerything it possibly can and making wise use of its. limited financial resources. ~lR. BENN3TT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.SPEAKER (Simms) A supplementary. The hon . member for St. Barbe. MR.BENNETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hopefully, Mr. Minister, 'lery shortly I shall present a let~er ~o you, to your office. to your attention on behalf of the Province, not only my district. Last evening I was in Cow Head and I was bombarded by - there are several people there, widows, who are living way, way, way below the poverty line.

One lady in particular 1 desperately :::rippled with a large family, a ~..ridow, not able to •...rork ar.d very disturbed about what she is going to do for fuel for her stove, food for her family, and I am wondering, ar. Speaker, would the minister consider reinstating the ~other's Allowance so these people could have some form - SOI1E HON .MEI<IBERS: Hear; hear~ !'IR. BENNETT: -of security? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Social Services. ~IR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, just last week I attended the federal-provincial conference in Ottawa and my colleagues across the country, to the last minister from all the provinces and territories,brought to the attention of the federal minister the plight of people as outlined by my hon. friend and of the need for expansion of a number of aspects of the Social assistance programmes.

The response we got was that there was no money, no new money, and •...re were told finally that the best that could be done was to review the Canada Assistance Plan with a view to making more flexible the cost sharing arrangement which might well enable 7 :~ 6 ~

Decembe~ 16,1980 Tape No. 2995 AH -2 )!R. E!Cl<EY: us to co some aaditional things to deal with that very issue that he refers to . I suqgest to him that - there is no doubt in ~y mind that the neec is there in a number of aspects anc in a number of areds of our progra:nme -but aaain I point out to hi.-, that, you knew, we eo the best we can with the resources that are available and , o: cours~. the social assistance progra r!'.me •.vas never ~ailored to provide eve!:yching. I think , ~!r .

Speaker, it is £air to say teo -:hat what •11e have co do ~s to isola~e as :ar as possible the real needy ca ses and to put some extra collars there vlhere there is not the ability to go out anc earn a :e'" extra dollars, such as the widows and the older people and the disabled i ~ E r;

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 2996 DW - 1 MR. T. HICKEY: and this kind of groucs and this is what we are attemoting to do. "ffi.. T . BENNETT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A final supplementary, the hon. member for St. Barbe. :'4R. '"'· BE::-INETT: ~~lhile I have the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, I would like to sort of suggest to t.he minister iri the form of a question, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact it must be more difficult for a one pa~ent family to raise children and indeeo. ~r.

Sneaker, keep them within the framework of la'tl - in other words, keep them from being delinquents - I would hope that the mini­ ster recognizes the fact, you know, that it is a little difficult sometimes for women alone with large families, and sometimes children wind up as delinquents,and this in turn costs your budget extra dollars. It is an extra burden on the taxpayer and it is an extra burden on s=~ety · So, Mr. Speaker, I am wondering, Mr.

Speaker, if the minister cculd =onsider some o~her form of assistance to these peoole here who are sc desperately in neec 1 and c am sure the minis~er can separate those who are so desperately in need from those who are not desperately in need. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services . ~R. T. HICKEY~ Mr. Speaker, I am glad the hon. gentleman agrees with our policy ''Thich is presently in J?lace. I can assure him that the various things he is saying today is operative within my department right now.

We are,indeed, doing orecisely that, we are providing extra !TIOney to families at risk, where the c~ildre~ are at risk, w~ere there are dif=icultie3. 786F:

December 16 , 1981) Tape )to . 2996 otv - 2 ~:f.~ .

T . .diCKEY: tve are providing- extra money to single parent s \vho have depenC.ent children, we are providing extra money to help rehabilitate these single parents and find thew some type of employma~t or train them and introduce them into some new form s of em~loy­ ment, ~1 in t~e interest of doing the verv thins he re=ers tc and identifies, the th r eat, and sometL~es not only the threat but the real true-tc-li~e situation where indeed children are at risk and in trouble or ab~ut to be in trouble and with a real ~ossibility of endin ·g up in a training school and so on. L~ addition to that, Mr .

Speaker, we have embarked upon a programme to take boys and girls who are in training schools out into group homes or in their own homes,providing additional money to the families to help them make out and to hell? the.'l1 care =or their children. 7So7

December 16, 1980 ~R. SPEAKER (Si~~s) ~R. B. TULK: Tape No. 2997 SD - 1 The hon. member for Fogo . Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the ~inister of Transporation (Mr. Brett) and it concerns his recent announcement on the Fogo Island fe~ry service. In that announcement,I think he said that the cost would be approximately ~900,000 and he also pointed out that there would be need of terminals at Man of War Cove, at Farewell and a terminal at Seldom.

I would like to ask him a question,if he intends to see that work carried on the same time in the four places mentioned or just when does he intend to do the Carmanville, Seldom, Man of War, ?arewell Head. Could he give a timetable, please? MR. SPEAKER: :V.cR. C. BRETT: The hon. Minister of Transportation. No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot give the hon. gentleman a timetable. I know that the work at Man of War CO'Ire and Farewell HeaC. l'lould be done first; hopefully we can start this Spring on that. When we will do the terminals at Al'< HON . MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. C. BRETT: - no.

When we can do the terminals and the wharf at Seldom and Cannanville remains to be seen because that is, I suppose, of secondary importance since if we have to use that route at all it will only be two or three months of the year.Rut it is certainly down the road three or four years. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: for Fogo. MR. TULK: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hen. member The minister also stated that the upgrading and paving of the roads from Stagg Harbour to Seldom would be carried on -and from Stoneville to Farew·ell Head und from Birchy Bay and so on.

I wonder if he could indicate to us - he said it would be done in another 79(18

"-·- _. _; . December 16 , 1980 Tape No . 299i so - 2 ~1R . B. '!'ULi<: year-and I wonder if he could indicate t~ us where he foresees that being done? Does he ex?ect ~o see it done at the Sru~e ti~e as he is doing the ~ecessary lancing facilities or will it be in a later year or ju~t wh~n will it be? .:-1..~ . SPEAl<ER (SL11!ll s): T~e hon . ~inister of Transporta~ion . .:-L~ . C. BRE~T: Well, I cannot give the hor. . m~~= a date on tha~ either , Mr . Speaker.

It will be listed ~~ong all the other roads in the Province that ~eed ~o be paved, so~e 2,000 or 3,000 kilometers,ar.d ! doubt very much if i~ will go along with the new facilities, I doubt if it will be done at the same time,but I suppose the re -routing of the ferry would probably place a little ~igher 9riori~y on the roads, oath on the Island and on the other side,but I can~ot give the hon. gentlem an a ~e~able. It depends on ~he budget and how muc~ money is going to be available . ~~ . TULi<: ~L~ . S?EAKER : member for Fogo . Final supplemen~ary, Mr . Spe~~er . Final supplementar y . the hon. ~L~ .

TULK: ?-lr. Speaker , theminisl:eralso indicated, anci he kn0\-1 \vell the problems that we had with an air service to that Island last year in getting i~ ?go~ ·e

December 16 , 1980 Tape No . 2997 so - 2 year -an d ! wonder i: he could indicar.e t.o us \vhere he foresees t..l-tac being cone? Does he expe ct to see it done at the same time as he is doing the necessary landing facilities or wiil it be i~ a later year or je st when will it. be? :1..~ . S?EAKEa (Simms) : The hen . ~inister of Tran s?Qrtati on. 1•1R . C . BRETT : ;vell, cannoc give ~he han . member a date on that either, ~~ . Speake= .

I-: will be listed among all the other roads in the Pro vince that need to be ?BVed , scme 2,000 or 3,00 0 ~ilometers ,anc I do ubt ery much if it will go along with the new =acili~ies, • doubt if it will be done at the same time.~ct I 5~P?OSe che re -routing of the :erry \·tculd ?robabiy place a litt le: higher priority on t:-te roa ds, !>oth on the Isla:1d and on the other side,buc! cannot gi-;e the hen. gentleman:::. t.l. \-neteble . It de!;end s on the budge and hal ·l much money is going co be available . ~-1R. . TULK: ?inal supple!!le!'!ta:: y , ~lr . S9eaks:: . :OlR .

S?EA-=<ER : Fina l supp l emen~ar y , the hon . :nember for Fogo . ~"L TULi< : ~x . Speaker, ~~e minister also indicated, and he knO\v 1·1ell the problems tha1: we had with an air service to that Island last year in getting it ,,:QtJ

, . . . December 16 ,. 1980 Tape No. 2998 Nl -1 - 1 MR. TTJLK: put on, I wonder if he could indicate to us, and perhaps to the people of Fogo through this House, just when that ferry service will be going on this year? Will it be going as soon as the ponds are safe to land on, or will he be waiting for some emergency to occur before he puts it on? M.R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of T=ansportation and Communications. MR. BRE'.i'T: Mr. Speaker, that service will be going on as soon as it is necessary, as soon as the planes are able to land there. MR. SPEAKER: Our time for Oral Questions has expired.

ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. MARSHALL : Order 35, Bill No. 88. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Municipalities Act,'' (Bill >{o. 88). MR. SPEAKER: Debate was adjourned by tl"le hon. member for LaPoile. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, when I moved the adjournment yesterday I wanted to check to see if the new procedure concerP-ing the breaking of a tie at council meetings, if that procedure was indeed the one recommended by the Federation of Mayors and Mu~icipalities of which I was once twice,as a matter of fact -president.

I was president of that organization for two terms and that is all you are allowed to, according to the constitution, you are only allowed to hold the constitution for two terms. And I have been informed that this was in line with their recommendations. Now that does not necessarily mean that I approve of it because, Mr. Speaker, I have to say this about that particular clause in the act, the clause now states that where there is a tie the matter would have 7 :=J ·in

December 16, 1980 Tape Uo . 2998 NM - 2 ~ . ~EARY: co hold over =or the n~~t meeting and t~en if there was a tie at the naxt meeting then the matter would have to oe held over for three month s. I do not think , :·lr . Speaker, that t!'!at is good policy . It is my understanding that town councils, municipal governments, cities , in this Province are made up of odd numbers , and ~~e reason they are made up of odd number s is so there will not be a tie . Town councils in Net4foundland comprise of seven members, seven members .

And the \4hole idea of having seven is that it would be very unlikely that a tie vote \-IOuld develop. t•1hen the government brought in th is new municipal act last session of the Hou se , they took away the double vote , because prior to this the presiding officer 7 g 7 •1

December 16, 1980 Tape 2999 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: at the town council meetings could break the tie by casting a double vote, by voting on whatever the issue was and then,if there was a tie, the presiding officer would break the tie. That was eliminated in the new Municipal Act and now the government realize they made a mistake and they have to go back to some other formula. I do not ~ike this formula myself. I do not like it even though it was recommended by the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities. I think they should keep voting, Mr. Speaker, under our democratic system until the tide is broken.

If they can do it in Rome electing a Pope, where you have to wait for the pot of smoke to go up, I do not see why it could not be done here in Newfoundland. ?~ urgent ma~ter could come up, Mr. Speaker, a matter of urgent importance to the c~~unity could come up, and the council would have to wait three months if there was a tie before the matter could be raised again.

What I would like to see happen - and I know the minister will get up now and argue, 'Well, you have resignations from town councils,' and that is for sure, because we had more resignations from town councils in Newfoundland, I suppose, than in any other part of Canada, ~nd I am not going to go into that, that is only because of the way they are treated by the provincial government. When there is bad news to be announced, the government will let the mayor and the town councillors do it; when there is good news to be announced, you will find the ministers and the members outmaking the announcement.

The town councils do not like that and they do not like the way they are being treated. They do not like being the scapegoats for the imposition of the property tax. Therefore, I would submit to this hon. House, Mr. Speaker, 787?

December 16, 1980 Tape 2999 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: that in due course you are going to see more resignations from town councils. They are in the firing line and they are the ones who have to take the rap for this Tory Gover:,ment forcing the property tax on the municipalities throughout this Province. It is starting to backfire. It took a little while for the word to filter through. It is 7 ·~' ':\ I - I .

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3000 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: starting to backfire on the government and the hotter it gets, Mr. Speaker, the more mayors and town councillors you will see throw in the towel, resigning. So I do not know if this is a good move or a bad move. I am inclined to be a little bit indifferent about it. I do not think it is either good or bad. The government is just trying to turn a bad situation into something that thev think is workable. I doubt if this formula is workable. I might say, while I am at it, Mr.

Speaker, that I am totally opposed, I am against the double vote, two votes for the presiding officer. I am against the mayor of St. John's having two votes. The only place in Newfoundland, the only place, I suppose, in the world where a presiding officer has two votes; the mayor of the city of St. John's has a double vote. AN HON. MEMBER: Not as. MR. NEARY: It is not the only place in the world? Well, it is the only place in the democratic world, how is that? AN HON. ME.t>IBER: No . MR. NEARY: No? Not that either? Well, let me try again.

There are very few places left in the democratic world where a ~erson has two votes. The principle is undemocratic. The principle of it is undemocratic and I would like to hear the min­ ister's comments on the situation here in the city of St.John's and indicate whether or not that is going to be changed in the foreseeable future. How many crises were brought on in the last year or two down at City Hall because the mayor had two votes? How many, Mr. Speaker? Too numerous to mention! And that double vote should be taken away from the mayor and the city of St. John's. 7974

December 16 , 1 980 Tape No . 3090 E:L - 2 .:.ffi. NEA..""l.Y: You talk about an abuse of a privilege . Wel l, all you have to do is go back over the record of the last couple of years at City Hall and you ~ill see the v1orst kind of abuse , Mr . Speaker, of that privilege o£ having two votes. Now, as I said a fe•,; moments ago, town cot.:ncils comprise of seven elected represent ·atives, seven . -~ot sL'C, i t is not an even number, Mr. Speaker~ it is not six., it is not four, it is not eight 1 it is deliberately set at seven, an odd number, so that there •.vill be no ties .

Now, the minister can get up and argue that tvel l, maybe the mayor res igns, maybe t ·he presiding officer resigns 1 the council may be one short . ivell, the answer to that is get tnat one ?Ut back as quickly as you can and then take your ch.ances on se·,;en people turning up on an important :neeting . And then you lvill have :to ties and t!-lat is the way the system should work , Mr . Speaker. That is the way · it should tvork 7g7;

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3001 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: If you have a tie ,put it over until the next meeting; if you have a tie at the next meeting,put it over until the next meeting. Never mind postponing it and stalling it for three months when you could have the worst kind of a situation, of a crisis develop in a community. They may be in the oroces~ ,on the hitch of starting a water and sewer project, going to the bond market or making a decisio~ that will have major L~plications in the community. I do not know,but I suppose we could always change it if it does not work.

I suppose that is the attitude the minister has. This is ~he third way now and eventually, I would say, the minister will have to go back to the democratic wav and that is to let nature take its course. Seven people on a council; if they all attend the meetings,then there is no chance of having a tie.

If one is away from the community,wait until he comes back~ if one is sick and cannot serve, well, that would be rather unfortunate, it all depends on the length of the illness, If there was no chance that the individual who was ill was qoing to return.then per­ haps the individual might consider resigning and having another member elected to the council. That was the purpose of having seven, the odd number, and I am sorry to see "that it is not working b~cause that is the only democratic way to do it. Apart from these few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I do not see anything else in the bill.

Well, I can see all kinds of thinqs I could question. I could make a major speech on the impact and the repercussions and the implications of the municipal bill that was oassed last session but for another time. J?erhaos I will save that, "!r. Soeaker, 7 g :· h

···--- -~...:.=.-- December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3001 m~ - 2 SO~ HO~. ~~ERS: Bear, hear! MR . SPEAKER (Simms): If the hon. minister speaks now,she will close the debate. The hon. ~inister of Munici - oal Affairs . HRS . NENHOOK: Mr . Speaker, : am sure the hon . member for LaPoile (Mr . Neary) is aware that the City ;:l.ct is now being reviewed and that L., consulta- tion •1ith the city and with the officials of my del_)art ­ ment this particular second vote by the mayor will be looked at. The new Act actually is being patterned after the ne~" Municipalities ~.ct.

With regard to ~~e one vote by the councils ~cer the Municipa~ities Act , this amen~~ent reall y has been recommended by the municipal ­ ities and we a::-e hopeful that it will work . Of course, if it does net then we will have a chance to look at it again . 3ut it has been reco~T.ended by them and it has been recommended by the Federation of ;.tunicipali ties . Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see that the 09position spokesman on ~unicipal Affairs is supportive of the amendments . As I have said ,these have been reouested by our municipalities and my de - partment is only too happy to co -operate.

Ne agreed to these 7977 {'

December 16,1980 Tape No. 3002 AH-1 MRS NEwlH amendments , we think they are very essential and that it is necessary that they become effective as of January 1981. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Municipalities Act. •· (Bill No.88) On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Municipalities Act," read a second time , ordered referred to a Corrmittee of the Whole House presently by leave . (Bill No. 88). MR.MARSHALL: Order 34 Bill No.86. rilotion, second readinq of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Ships (Bounties) l>.ct (No.2)." (Bill No. 86) MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen.

President of the Council. MR. MARSHl>.LL: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Fisheries (~r. ~organ) I want to say a few words in introduction of this particular act. This is

an act, Mr.Speaker, to extend-the main principle of this act, Mr. Speaker, is to extend the fishing bounties to allow ships to be built .. to be constructed where the shipbuilder has not a purchaser already signed up. The hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is now corning in. I do not know, I can continue on ,but I only have a few words. If by leave of the House, if they would like, the hon. rninist~r, I am sure he could do it in a much more - I beg your pardon? AN HON. MEr~E"' :<: (Inaudible) nuic~er.

MP. • MARS F.ALL : WelL he probably could do it much quicker and I know he could do it much better than myself even though I hate to admit it, Mr. Speaker. So by leave I would ask the ~,1inister of Fisheries ('1r. Morqanl now to Speaker. 7 'j 7 8

December 16,1980 MR. SPEAKER {Simms) : SGr~F ;f()~T. HJO>H>.J"O" • MR. SPEA..XFR: .,.r<. i·IORGAJ.'l: Tape No. 3002 AH-2 By leave. Is it agreed? Agreed. The han. Minister of Fisheries . Mr. Speaker, this bill is to make two very significant changes to the existing Bounties Act and one is in connection with fishermen obtaining bounties as oer the regulations brouqht before the House last year.

And it came to light after the regula~ions were put in place that there should be some exceptions to the rules and these exceptions are now put forward in this bill here covering the certain situations where fisherrnen,for example, beyond no fault of their own, were unable to qualify for bounties.And these situations were,for example, illness of a fishermen during that past two year period, he was not fishing because of illness: because the fisherman was engaged in the offshore fishery - and that was a major concern from the South Coast and the South~vest Coast because many fishemen there are enqaged as trawler fishermen.

If they want to join the inshore fisheries, why should they not qualify for· a loan or a bounty ?So we made exceptions to those fishermen who ~o.•ant to move from the offshore to the inshore and midshore.And the third category was the category whereby a fishermen was building a longliner during the fishing season. He was not fishing, but he was building a boat to improve his fishing activity,so we qave an exception.In this case we are giving exceptions in ~his bill to these three catagories so they will now be able to qualify for bounties and loans under the Bounties Act. The other major one, Mr.

Speaker, has been brought to my attention by members on both sides of the House, the Opposition side as well as our own side, 797q

December 16,1980 Tape No. 3002 l>.H-3 MP.. MORGAN: in connection with boats being built by a shipyard and the fishermen cannot apply for these boats and get the bounty. 7 '~ .c1 n

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3003 SD - l MR. J. MORG&'T: ~here are a number of boats now sitting in shipyards around the Province that the shipyards cannot sell because the fishermen cannot qualify for the bounty.

So we are going to allow now t!",ose shipyards that exist or which are existing now with boats en hand built, compl~ted, ready for the water but the fishermen cannot get the bounties, it means now the bounty will apply to these boats held by th~ shipyards; the fisherman will make an application, get his loan approved, get his bounty approved and to go out and shop around from ~hoss boats now available in these existing yards.

And also linking into that is a major change which we feel is long overdue and that is the fact that today when fishermen apply for a loan they have to apply for a loan on a certain boat, they cannot apply for a loan to buy a boat, any b9at, a certain category and go out and shop around like if you were buying a car, and we feel that it is unfair So this regulation here will enable now a fisherman, for example, to apply to get a loan and also his bounty and will be able to go out and shop around to different yards.

We are telling the yards,'you build the boats on your own speculation without government assistance, you are allowed to go ahead and build the boats,but you do your own selling to the fishermen.' So it means that a fisherman >lill now be able to get a boat much faster; he can go out and pick out a boat immediately after the loan is approved and shop around and be able to deal with the yard directly and, in fact, have the boat in the water in a matter of weeks after his loan is approved. as very So these three, we view them significant changes to the benefit of the fishermen of the Province and I am sure that in this case it will be of benefit to the fishermen who are dealing with the 7 g a ·1

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3003 SD - 2 MR. J. ~ORGAN: ~oans Board and obtaining newer and better boats throughout the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : 'I'he hon. member for Burin - Placentia West. ~. D. HOLLETT: Thank you very much, Hr. Speaker. First I would like to congratulate the minister and his department for bringing in what we feel are very significant changes to the act which was amended, I think, last June. Mr. Speaker, I must say that we support all the amendments. There are a few co~~ents that I would like to make on behalf of my colleagues. I think one of the most significant changes and one of the most important aspects of the amendment is the (

b) one where finally we are recognizing the deep sea fishermen as being fishermen. I think the minister would agree with me that this is the first occasion that the people who made it a livelihood for hundreds of years in this Province by fishing what we call 'offshore' are finally being recognized and given due consideration. The minister himself indicated before the House closed last Summer that he would do what he cou1d to implement this change. And while on that particular topic, Mr. Speaker, I would like to suggest to the minister one further consideration with those people,although I know it is not in 7 '3d?

December 16, 1980 Tape 3004 EC - l r-'I..R. HOLLETT : his fai~ direct jurisdiction, but I also said as I have said before, those deep sea fishermen should also be given due consideration when the new act relating to elections is proclaimed or introduced to the House. Because really, there is no provision for proxy voting and that type of voting available to those people yet. Apropos tqe

section pertaining to the shipyards being able to construct on what we call spec, I think it is high time. This way, with the approval of the minister, a person or persons who operate a yard, if they have some very innovative ideas, some new designs, that maybe they do not have a market for their idea of what a changed thirty-six footer should be - with the approval of the minister, he can say, 'Now, you build your prototype, you put it on the market and we will ensure that a fisherman will be able to get a loan and bounty to purchase this boat if he feels it is what he wants.' Mr.

Speaker, I guess one could go on to the other sections, but the other point here, the illness of the fishermen, I think this is terribly important, not only under this act but under the new licencing policies and some of the provincial other policies, that if a fishermen were ill for a season and probably living in an area where his arthritis prevented him from fishing, if he did not have a doctor's certificate and could not prove that he could not fish for this reason, he was no longer considered a fisherman for that current season. Another

section here that I think is terribly important and I would like to congratulate the minister on, is the

section that states 'because a fisherman has been engaged in a fishery related activity.' In our Province, ~- Speaker, we have hundreds of people who are involved in maybe research work, maybe oceanography work, 7ga:;

_____ ....__ --._.. -... December 16, 1980 Tape 3004 EC - 2 MR. HOLLETT: maybe survey work. ana the~e are a myriad of other headings I could use. But at least, those people 1;101-1 are certified navigators i£ t..i-ley have. their sea time and if they show the indication in the will or maybe they fished for ten years before they went into those jobs, t.hat the minister in his dis_cretion can deem Lha~ as beL~g bona ~ide fishe.rma~ to qualify for subsidies , bounties and licences and whatever is required . So , ~x . Speaker, on our side, I would jt:st like to congratulate the mi:1ister for those 5orN"ard steps .

I feel confident that in the not too distant future there will be additional amendments, and to me., 1-!r. Spealcer, this shows that we can when necessary be flexible enough and be forward enough to ensure. that t.'le :fishing people in Newfoundland can maximize the fisheries in all aspects. ~hank you ve·ry much . On motion , a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Ships (Bounties) Act ( No . 2) ," Bill No . 86, read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the ivhole House presently by leave . Order 36. Motion, second reading o·f a bill , "An Act To .runend The Education (Teachers' Pension

s) Act ( No. 2) , " Bill No. 89 . MR. SP~~ER (Simms) : The bon. the Minister of Education . 78 6!.

.:. Dece~er 16, 1980 Tape No. 3005 NM - 1 MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the thrust of this bill is to extend greater pension benefits to the teachers of our Provin~e if provisions are the result of negotiations between government officials and the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. There are four main points contained in the bill, I think all of which are fairly set out and require no further elaboration from me. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (Sia~s): The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE : (Inaudible) qracious introduction. to this particular bill. I agree with the minister, Mr.

Speaker, the four clauses and amendments here are as a result of bargaining at the table with the NTA to improve the pension rights for - in clause number (1), emergency; and (

d) emergency teachers, supply teachers and delicenced teachers, and I understand there are quite a number of those who would not otherwise get the benefits included. The clause (2) part all0wing teachers to get benefits for pension benefits after forty years of service is in line with the Public Service Act, I would assUQe, or the Public Service Agreement. And that also is fair. And the third clause allowing incapacitated teachers to receive their pension upon becoming incapacitated is obviously humane and I am really surprised that it was not included before this time. So that certainly is a fair clause. So, Mr.

Speaker, there is nothing in this particular bill that we disagree with. There is one point I would like to raise, however, regarding the Teachers' Pension Fund and the minister might like to reply to it wl:.;n she speaks in closing the bill. I understand that the Teachers' 7sa~

Deca~er 16, 1980 Tape No . 3005 NM - 2 ?"'~ . F. ROi·!E : Pension Fund does not in fact real ly exist at th e present time . It has been depleted .

It has been ex!1auste d and actuarial studies have indicated ~hat there •..till come a liability crunch somewhere down - !ive, ten, I do not know how many yea rs time but there will ccme a time, I unde rstan d 1 \vhen a great number of teachers ":~~ill become eligible to re ceive their pension and the question is whether the fund will be available to pay these pensions . whether the liability will be too great and whether or not the Province will be in a !inancial squeeze at th at particular time with respect to the fL,ancial houses of the world .

And what ! •..-ould basically like to find out is what is t!'le state of the pension fund? Is it now depleted , the fund itsel!? Does the minister have any indication of \vhen this liab ility crunch is likely to come? And what , if any, action is the minister and her department taking to meet that particula r need when that ~runch comes? Bec ause I thi nk it is 7 '-3 :, r,

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3006 EL - 1 MR. ROWE: a very serious situatiou, Mr. Speaker, if we are going to have a great number of teachers in, say, 1995 suddenly becoming pensionable and the govern­ ment is not in any position to meet the pension payroll, if you ~oTould. So, I would like to know what actions the govern­ ment has taken up to this point in time to forestall that part­ icular crisis other ~~an just knowing that it is a possible crisis.

I would like to know what action is being taken so that this liability crunch with respect to the Pension Fund does not arise at the time when the actuarial studies indicate and in fact I would like also to know when that crunch is in fact anticipated, in what particular year? So, other than that, Mr. Speaker, we are in full agreement with this particular bill. ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) tion? Is the House ready for the ques- The hon. ~inister of Education. If the hon. minister speaks now, she will close the debate. ~S.

VERGE: Yes, there have been a couple of questions raised by the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (F. Rowe) on broader questions affecting pensions for teachers and other public servants. I will take those questions as notice. However, I can comment generally that this government is making sound plans for meeting liabilities incurred for the pensions of not only teachers, but other public servants and this year for the first time set aside $10 million to fund such pensions. MR. SPEAKER: Is the Ho~se ready for the question?

On motion, a bill, "An Act To &11.end The Education (Teachers' Pensions) .il._ct (~lo.2) ," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presentl y by leave. 7~3217

f' December 16 , 1980 Tape No . 3006 EL - 2 On motion, that ~~e House resolve itsel: into a Conunittee o: the Whole on certa.:.n bills, Mr.Speaker left the C!lai::: . ~ffi. CHAI~~(BUtt) : Orde r, please! A bill , "An Act To .~end T!'le Ecucat.:.on (Te achers' Pensions) Act (No . 2)."(Bill No . 89) . On motion clauses l t!'lrouqh 4 bv leave , carriec . On motion the committee reported having ?assed the bill wichout amendment. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Municipalities Fo.ct." (Bill NO . 88) Qn motion cla~ses 1 through 5 carri ed . Motion that t~e co~~ittee report having passec r:he bill '"ithout amendment, carried . 7q~f\

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3007 DW - l A bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Ships (Bounties) _1\ct (No. 2)." (Bill No. 36) On motion, the committee passed the bill without amendment. A bill, "An Act To Authorize The Lieutenant-Governor In Council To Enter Into An Agreement With E:qco Industries Limited." (Bill No. 83) Shall clause 1 carry? MR. CHAIRMJlli (Butt) : The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, everything that can be said pretty well on this bill has been said. I want to say to the hon. ~mber for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) that when he got into debate on second reading he seemed to feel for some reason that somebody on this side, particularly myself,was bitter or some­ thing because the bill accomplished what it accom~lished for Long Harbour. I want to tell the member that I am not bitter and indeed I am auite pleased that this bill will have the effect of stabilizing the economy of Long Har~our. The hon. member and I have a great deal in common from a constituency point of view. He is repre­ senting a district that has been depressed for a long time from an industrial point of view. So do I.

I did believe, so I want the merr~er to know that I am happy for him and for his constituents that this bill will have the effect of stabilizing the industry at Long Harbour, that it will not be a political football anymore, that the people who work there will be able to go to work knowing that there appears to be some long-term security for the company. 795q

December 16, 1980 Tape No . 3007 ow - 2 "!R . c; . FLIGHT : But I would say this, Mr . Speaker , and I ca~ sa y it very quickly ,that when that bill ~as first oresented it was couched in te~s to :ead t~e people o= this Province to believe t~at we were going to make Sl46 millio n profit .

That ,.,as the '"a'f the bill \ofas couched, that •J~as the way the P:-emi er in his statement -and that was the kind o: way it was presentee by che Minister of Mines and.Energv (Mr . 9ar::y l. ~-nd I believe it ,.,as my job as a member o!' the C;>?Csition ar.d as a r.1ernber of this Eouse to ?Ut che lie to that , to expose ~~at as being not right . t-Ie are not goi ng to make $l.46 million . There !-las !:leen evidence in recent days t:hat '"e mav be ::oinq ~o s~bsidize that industry by mo re than Sl46 ~illion.

The ~inister of ~1ines and Energy in answering a question a !ew days ago adrnittec that ~~e cost of energy in this ?:-ov:nce will rise by 100 ?er cent by 1987 . That is only ha l!way through the li!e of the new contract which mean s ~;e cost to Srco does not rise by ~~e same rate the cost to produce rises . So, ~lr.

Chairman, !e t me go on the record that although it may have be9n an improvement to the situation this P::ovi~ce is going to very heavily subsidize the Erco c9 erat ion over the life of th~s contract over the nex~ thirteen years ~uite oossibly to the extent that lofe have subsidized :.-c up unt:il chis ?Oint in d-ne. A."'d that 7Sr:l"l

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3008 SD - l MR. G. FLIGHT: is totally dependent on the escalation of energy prices in this Province. So, Mr. Chai':nn-,an_, I say it may not have been the best deal that could have been negotiated. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. CHAIR"1AN ('Butt) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: I just want to address myself because you cannot leave remarks like that on the record without showing that they have been responded to, lest our acquiescence would be deemed to be agreement. All I will say, Mr.

Chairman with respect to the remarks made by the hon. member that we have joined, you know, issue with him. We look upon it a different way, I would refer anyone who might be reading the record of the House to the second reading of the bill because I just table our answer to what he said per s.e. The proof would be in the pudding, Mr. Chairman and the pudding •t~ill be eaten by the people in Newfoundland. A Bill,"An Act To Authorize The Lieutenant-Governor In Council To Enter Into An Agreement >Vith ERCO Industries Limited." (Bill No. 83) On motion Clauses l through 3 carried.

Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without ammenQments, carried. MR. W. M.ARSHALL: Motion 3, Bill No. 85. A bill, "An Act To Provide For The Repeal Of The Churchill Falls (Labrador) Corporation Limi ted (Lease) Act, 1961 And The Lease And Am endments Thereto Executed Under That Act And the Reversion To ~he Province Of The Rights And ·Liberties Leased Or Granted To The Le~see Under The Lease". (Bill No. 851 On mot ion Clause 1, carried. ~1R. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman. 7 s s .,

December 16 , 1980 Tape No. 3008 50 - 3 ::OtR. G. FLIGHT: Labrador, this is the bill. This i s t.l1e bill that ,,,ill expose the stupid ity o: this a&~inistration , Mr. Chairman . No•tl, ~1~ • Chairman , on~ other point I would want to make on it is that we talk about developing the Lo~o1er Churchill and the 1-!inister of Mines and Energy (.l1r. Barry) i .n asking questions t oday o r yesterday or the day before said, yes, we are ;;>roceeciing on with the de velopment of the Lower C~urchill and the development 1-vill cost this P~ovir.ce $7 billion i:l tot al - !1uskrat and Gull Island - yet 7g S? f' 1'

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3008 SD - 2 C.lR. CH...l\IRMAN (Butt) The hon. member for Windsor - Euchans . !'IR. G. FLIGHT : Mr. Chairman, just a few words on this particular bill, probably one of the most important bills that has ever come into this House, Mr. Speaker. And I want to say before the debate 1vinds up on it and then it is proclaimed as law, as legislation, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) a few days ago pointed out that the ~ost of the Lower Churchi:l development was up to this point in time 1 ~1uskrat and Gull Island, is probably $500 million.

When you consider over $200 million paid for the water rights, paid to BRINCO for BRINCO assets to buy CFLCo and the water rights, and then when you look at the interest that has been piled on that two hundred- and-something million dollars since 1972 when the purchase was made-or 1972, 1973 ·that blunder, that stupidity has probably cost this Province SSOO million to date and accomplished nothing, Hr. Chairman. It was not on the pretext that we will be in a position to develop the Lower Churchill on our terms, we have not developed the Lower Churchill. When the deal '/las made, Hr.

Chairman, there were clauses in the contract that would have stopped us from developing the Lower Churchill anyway, in the power contract not in the lease. There would have to have been legislation brought into this House after that $200 million was co~mitted that would have allowed us to develop the LQwer Churchill. So, Mr.

Chairman, what was done eight years ago at a cost of $500 ~illion to this Province could have been done today, it need not have been done, 'Jothing has been accomplished by this goverlli~ent having soaked the people of ~ewfoundland by SSOO million, nothing has been achieved by that expenditure, Mr. Chairman, and if there is any bill ever comes to this House to point out the s<:upidity, the mismanagemem: of this administration sLnce 1972 have applied to the developmen~ of power in 7•E;i

December 16, 1980 Tape ~o. 3009 NH - 1 HR. F!..IGRT: at the same time, Mr. Speaker. we have a piece of legislation on our desk, we have a piece of legislation on our desk that if proclaimed, and the Pr2mier says it must be proclaimed in less than two yea~s, will give this Province 5,500 megawatts of power, 5,500 megawatts of power we will have when this legislation is proclaimed, less than two years from now. What are we going to do with that power? Where is it going to go? We do not have access out of Labrador. We will have 5,500 megawatts of power yet the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry), and Premier indicates that we are still going to go ahead, not knowing if this legislation is going to be proclaimed or not, not knowing if we are going to have 5,500 megawatts of power on our hands in Churchill. We are going to go ahead and develop the Lower Churchill, Muskrat and Gull, at a cost of $7 billion to this Province so that we will have another 2,300 megawatts of power on our hands that we will not know what to do with. What stupidity, Mr. Speaker! What stupidity! And, Mr. Speaker, the best - the least benefit that this legislation should mean to this Province is recall rights.

There are some people who believe that the only reason this legislation was brought in is to force Quebec Hydro to negotiate. Well let us assume it accomplishes that, the least benefit from this legislation that would accrue is recall rights on the Upper Churchill that in the first instance will be 800 megawatts. Yet if this legislation is - if that happens in the next two years_it will take us five years to be able to bring that power, the recall, what we have negotiated, the 800 megawatts, to this Province.

According to every authority going, LCDC, Newfoundland Hydro, it will take five years to put in place a cable crossing to bring the power required for this 7 g ~1 L.

December 16, 1980 ~!R . FLIGHT: t~e Straits . Taoe No . 3009 P ro vi~ce into New=oundland via So, ~r . Chair:nan, '-'lhen you look at it , t.;hen you look at the contradicitions tl1at are embodied into that legislation , it. is enough , ~tr. Speaker, to :nake one t.;oncer i: t3i s adminstration knotvs, i: t.'ley have any plan, i= NM - 2 they know •..;hat they a=-e coing on the Upper or the Lower Chu rc hill, or indeed the Opper Churchill inasfar as t~is particular legisla~ion is concerned . P~d. Mr.

Speake r, I ha ve no desire to belabou= this bill but I can assure t.~is ministry, can assure t.:-te P::emier and his Mines and Energy ~linister (!-1r . Barry) , and the Speaker of the House, that thi s legislation •.rill come back, 1 c''l ;:; :; I "J v

December 15,1980 Tape No. 3010 AH-1 ~!R.5'LIGHT: This piece of legislation is the one piece of legislatior.. that this government has brouqht in that will come back to haunt the qovernment of l'iewfoundland. If it does not bankrupt this Province,it will come back to haunt the people of Newfoundland. ~!R. CF.AIRHJ..N (Butt): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. !".ARSHALL~ Hr. Chairm?-n, I think that the remarks made by ·the hon. gentleman are the same as the opinions that were expressed, stated in second readi~g; all I would do is once again ioin issue.But I rise for another purpose , ~1r.

Chairman, on this Clause 1 and that is for the purpose ot nurpo~irg an amendment to Clause l­ I a~ sorry; Clause 2. M:R.HARSHALL: 1-!.R. CHAIRMl>N: MR. MARSHALL: On motion Clause 1, carried. Shall Clause 2 car~y? ~1r. Chairman. The hon.President of the Council. !-'fr. Chairman, T have an 3rnendment to propose to

Section 2(

c) which has already been given to the Opposition House Leader and I shall read it. But first of all before I read it, I think it is probably beneficial to briefly indicate what this amendment is, the nature and extent of this amendment and the reason for it. The nature and extent of the amendment is, ~1r. Chairman, that the previous drafting of this

Section 2(

c) did not explicitly make the bill, the definition of hydro electric power pertain to ~hose works that were on real property. And on looking it over, the draftsman, the legal advisor who is going to be carrying the case to court , has indicated that while it was alric;rht originally 1 perhaps it could be made a little bit better by proposing an amenili~ent which would make it quite clear that hydro electric works extends to those affixed to real 79SR

December 16, 1980 Tape 3011 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: property to assure that the Province is seized of jurisdiction· and to assure that there is no question of us taking the personal property, the personalty of the corporation itself. Because it is not the intention of the government to take the personalty of CFLCo, to interfere with the personalty, as the whole purpose of the act is for the purpose of reacquiring the water rights and the rights to generation. So, I move , Mr . Cha.irm3n, then that paragraph C of

Section 2 be struck out and the following substituted therefor. I might say, Mr.G~, it is generally speaking, along the sa.'!le terms,, except it introduces this element of real property to make sure that the Province is seized of jurisdiction - to read as follows: 'that hydroelectric works means the following things when they are affixed to and form part of the land' - you will note that emphasis 'when they are affixed to and form part of the land' - 'namely, works, buildings, structures, plants, machinery, devices, apparatus and equipment utilized or capable of being utilized in the exercise by CFLCo of rights, powers and interests under the act referred to in

Section 4 in the statutory lease, for or in connection with the development, diversion, regulation or storage of water or for the production, generation, transmission or distribution of electrical power or energy, including without limiting the generality of the foregoing, reservoirs, canals, dams, water control structures, penstocks, powerhouses, generators, transformers, towers, poles, cables and wires.' That is the nature, and I move the amendment, Mr. Chairman. I might also add there will be other amendments at the consequent of drafting amendrrent.s - most of them. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) Shall the amendment carry? 7g87

December 16, 1980 MR. FLIGHT: MR. CHAI~~ (Butt): Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Tape 3011 EC - 2 Mr. Chairman. The hon. the member for Mr.

Chairman, this should draw to the attention again of the people listening, all of Newfoundland and the House of Assembly, here was a major piece of legislation, probably the most important piece of legislation to come before ~his House in the past seven or eight - probably since Churchill Falls was developed in the first instance, and within a day after the legislation was laid on our desks, within a day or two after second reading, amendments start to pile up on the desks of the various members of this House. And a major amendment, Mr.

ChaUnBn, that amendment we just heard, Mr. ~, is a major amendment to that bill. So it would make one wonder just how much thought - if there were no more thought put into what this bill is going to accomplish than was put into the drafting of it, ~~. ChaUnBn, the people on whose backs this legislation will ride, the people of Newfoundland, are in trouble. And let me tell the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) why that piece of legislation is there.

Because he knows that Quebec Hydro in the power contract had a clause that would stop the people of Newfoundland, stop Newfoundland Hydro or anybody else,from developing the Lower Churchill. They had reservoir rights. By controlling the machinery and by controlling the flood gates and controlling all the apparatus on the Upper Churchill, they very effectively controlled the rate of discharge down that river. And without that control being in the hands of Newfoundland Hydro, we could never have developed the Lower Churchill.

It is not in the hands of Newfoundland Hydro yet and in order to give it into the hands of Newfoundland Hydro, either this legislation would 7 3 ~~ R

December 16, 1930 Tape 3011 EC - 3 MR. FLIGHT: have tc be proclaimed, >vhich wmlid scare the living daylights out of the President of the Council (V<!r. Marshall) . He would be the most frightened man in this Province today if he believed that that legislation had ~ne chance of being proclaimed, 'qr~'=l I ·..J '-'

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3012 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: this legislation, the Upoer Churchill bill. The minister had better pray that he never has to proclaim that legislation because he has no intention of proclaiming it but he will have to do this though, he will have to bring in another piece of legislation after we negotiate.

If this legislation is the means of this Province negotiating with Quebec for recall rights or a little better deal on the financial arrangement of the power now going to Quebec Hydro, that is all this legislation accomplishes.then the minister will have to bring in a piece of legislation changing the power contract, a piece of legislation that gives Quebec Hydro the right to control the resevoir discharges, and until that is done the Lower Churchill sites will not be developed either by a binding agreement acceptable to all parties, or legislation.

And I do not see that Quebec Hydro has shown any desire at this point in time to concede that right. Hr. Chairman, that is the purpose for the amendment by tbe way. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): The hon. the President of the Council'. '-~"R. MARSHALL: I would just like to add, Mr.

Chairman, because again I would not want statements on the record in this House pertaining to this bill or probably more important than any other Hansard because they have a ~abit of being examined in other quarters when the bill is to be determined so I just ~ould not want there to be by any silence on the government part any acquiesence as to its intention. It is stated in this bill, Mr. Speaker, very, very clearly, that first of all there will be a court reference to determine whether this bill is intra vires or within the powers of this Province.

Then secondly it is also provided in this bill that that having been determined in the affirmative, as we believe and we have a s~re and certain confidence it will be determined in the affirmative, that then and at that time there will be monies which will be first of all provided by the Province, ;J !l n n

£·· December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3012 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL : they will have the monies in ~and to retire the bonds and any monies that ar2 owed on the bonds. And then let there be, i"l.r. Chairman, no doubt in anyone's mind that this bill constitutes an affirmative decision by this government to get and obta~n the rights of the people of Newfoundland to the resources of the Upper Churchill, such rights, Mr. Chairma6, as were already and have been vested in this Province in our view.under the provisions of the statutory release.

So I know the hen. gentleman, you know, the particular amendment does not really directly pertain to it although he is right it does pertain to the general part of the bill, but I would not wish, and I know the hon. gentleman is making a point, and maki~g a point in debate and I certainly do not dispute his right to do it, but I would like, as far as the government is concerned, to indicate that let there be no doubt in anybody's mind that gover~~ent is not olaying games with respect to this.

Once these prerequisites that have been thought out and have been spelled out by the Premier, and have been spelled out by the government, have been told to the financial agents and the financial concerns in New York and in other places in the U8 1 once these things are done 1 this government intends to see fairness and equity in connection with this Upper Churchill contract and the only way that it is apparent right now from the way i~ which the proceedings have occurred with respect to the other court case, the court case for recall rights that was started in 1974, it is this government's firm understanding and impresssion that the only way that fairness and equity can be obtained is by proclamation of this act and these prerequisites having been done we certai~:y do intend, Mr.

Chairman, to so proclaim it. HR. FLIGHT: MR. CHAIRNAN (Butt) : MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman. The hon. member for IVindsor-.auchans. Mr. Chairma.:1, I a :j c ·1

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3013 EL - 1 MR. FLIGHT: concur with the hon. House Leader (W.Marshall) that this legislation will go before the courts to determine its legality and I have no doubt that it will be determined as legal. I have heard not too many people suggest that it migtt not be.

What I said to the minister is they have taken two year, they my get that opinion in six months, they may get it in three months, but they have taken two years to say,"We will.not proclaim this legislation for two year," and it is the ministry's hone, and it had better be in their prayers, that they will not have to go that two years, that that legislation will not have to be proclaimed, that is will be - that the legislation may be, and they may be able to hang their hats on it and say down the road, eight months, ten months from now that that legislation forced the Province of Quebec to negotiate.

That is what they want, Mr. Chairman, that is what they are going to be praying for. Now, Mr. Chairman, I \van t to ask the President of the Council a question. The people of Ne\v­ foundland have suffered dearly because this administration, of which the President of the Council was a member, this Cabinet, ~r. ChairiT.an, most of the people sitting in the front benches were members, the peo?le of Newfoundland have suffered dearly because of that S200 million commited to the Lower Churchill, probably the $500 million that it has cost this Province, Mr. Chairman.

We have seen essential services over the past eight years not funded in this Province, hosp­ itals, schools, whatever ?OU like, industry, because, ~1r. Chairman,the funds were not there. And why were they not there? Because we commited $200 million on the whim of a government, Mr. Chairman, that have accomplished nothing and it will probably a :J o;

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3013 EL - 2 MR. FLIGHT: cost this Province $500 million. Now, why does not somebody stand up over there and tell us what was accomplished with that $500 million or better still what could have been accomplished, where this Province could be now if we would have had that $500 million to spend this last eight years. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister something.

If this legislation is era­ claimed, it is going to be proclaimed in the next two year3: Where is the billion dollars, the billion dollars that we •r~ill require to pay off the bondholders, to pay off all the share­ holders, the people who ha ve a financial interest in this Upper Churchill, where is that billion dollars coming from within the next two years? Will the minister stand up and tell us where we are going to get that billion dollars and what it ••ill cost us? MR. CHAI~~(Butt): The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: On the first question, Mr.

Chair- man, I will not dwell on the first question because it would be a difference of opinion between two hon. gentlemen about the $200 million and the waste of it. I could talk about the henefits that have occured. I want to lea ve that aside because the hon. gentleman acknowledges we have a difference of opinion on that. Now, from where is the billion dollars going to come? Mr.

Chair­ man, we have done a tremendous amount of work, we being the government, with respect to this particular bill, and the bill has not been - there will be other amendments, by the way, to digress just a little bit, there will be other amendments but nobod y should - I mean, this is the pur pose of Committee of the 8 !J C; 1

December 16 , 1980 Tape No . 3013 n - 3 MR • . N.ll,.RS H.AL::. : House . The p~~ose of the Committee of the Reu se is to a~~~L~e it clause by clause and it is not astonish.i.ng -or i.e is not unusual that there be amend...rr.ents . A lo1: 'Jf thc.m are consec;::ue:ttial on this particular or.e -But where are v1e going to get the billion dollars? ;·iell, first of all, I do not know ~1 hether it is going to be a billion dollars .

By o~r calculations at the present , you are t:a 1 king about s 55 0 mill ion n 1 us in~erest en the bonds and you are also talkinq about compensation to the Quebec Hydro , to the Quebec Hydro and ~e'ilfoundland for the shares or. the provision of the act .

NO\~, I do not propose really to get into a - because I think ~,is could be used agai~st th .e government as far as the governme:1t is concerned a mea sure of the amount that will be payable as a resu lt of this , but I can say sure and certain fro~ the information •.Yhich we have had and :rom equit:l and justice and that . it is going co be very very much less tban the S450 mil:ion teat would be necessary to make tbe total amount one bi~lion dol~ars .

P.owever, I 1;ould concece, ~fr . :hairman, that that is not small change, ~~e amount of money that we have to get is no~ small chang e and i~ is going to be substantial. )lr. Chairman a ·~ U '.1 •

December 16,1980 Tape No. 3014 AH-1 MR .11ARSHALL : when we obtain our rights to the Churchill Falls lease, to the Churchill Falls River, when we obtain our vested rights - and these are rights, by the •.vay, that I continue to emphasize are vested rigJ:lts which we have and we have only brought in these bills because our rights have been thwarted by other persons in a way that •,;e feel is unreasonable and unacceptablP . Hhen we do all these things there will, Mr.~hairman, be no problem in obtaining the financing.

The hon. gentleman is fully aware of the low cost of that power and the strategy that this government has developed with respect to its energy and is in the process of developing will, I guarantee the hon. gentleman,allow this P~ovince to obtain fairness, justice and equity. And I will say to the hon. gentleman even though there is not small change involved,with an asset such as this we know and we operated in the sure and certain expectation and knowledge that that money quite possibly will be obtained.

As a matter of fact all indications are when we speak to the financial community that having assessed this particular act,they can see the justice and fairness of it, having looked at the particular act they know that it is a proper and a right action to be taken.

I knmv that the hon. gentleman will, I hope he will be glad to hear this, that they feel that the custodianship of the affairs of this Province are in the hands of people who are taking sensible, reasonable actions and as a result of this the image of the Province is being enchanced-, .zrnd I can guarantee the hon. gentleman from prelil':1ina:::-y conversations that we have we ·rill have no problem in obtaining as far as we are concerned the necessary monies~ But we put this in the act just to assure the bond- holders that the people of ~ewfcundland are not acting in any way like a banana republi::: how are you, but we are acting and we intend to act and continue to act in a responsible !":" • .::..nne::-. a.-.;; ::;

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3014 IB-2 MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) The hon. memb~r-forwi -ndsor-=- -- ----------::- - Buchan.s. MR. FI.IGHT: 1-!r. Chairman, 'tlhen the minister says that the people he talks to or the people who believe that this government is in good hands and making decisions that enhance our financial credibility and the rest I assure him that he is not talking about the same people I am talking ~o. There is nobody outside of this tpat I run ~nto, Mr. ::hairman, >vho would share that opinion. P.11t- T ,,,j_ ll a i ve the ninister the benefit of the doubt, Mr.

Chairman, that he does intend to proclaim this legislation, that it is the government's intention to proclaim this legislation, give him the benefit of the doubt. Now the Premier said that that will happen in less than two years. Everybody should remember that. So I will ask the minister a simple question: What will we dc?Once this legislation is proclaimed 1 the Churchill Falls facility then becomes the property of Newfoundland. We then have 5500 megawatts of power on our hands. In less than two years this Province will h~ve 5500 megawatts of power. The short-term requirement of this Province is 800 megawatts.

So assuming we built the transmission system and we brought the 800 megawatts of power into this Frovince, what will we do with the 4300 megawatts or roughly 4500 megawatts of power that will be sitting there in Labrador, no way out that the minister can tell us, the Gulf crossing is a dream now the way it was a dream in 1964, 1963 or 1964 when other people were talkina about it. It is a dream. Nobody with any credibilit: will a :j c: h

December 15, 1980 Taoe No. 3015 GH-1 "1R. FLIGHT : discuss it. So, I would ask the ~on. the President of Council (Mr.

Marshall) - co not be in too big a hurry to get up because, you know, when I sit down the minister can get up- what will we do with the 5,500 megawatts of power that is going to become available to this Province when we take over the Churchill Falls facility; If he believes that ~re are, indeed, ·going to proclaim· this legislation and then have that cheap po.,rer - what he calls cheap power - to bring into Newfoundland - and he knows that it is croing to take five years to build a transmission system to get it here - when is he going to start?

Knowing he is going to proclaim the legislation, knowing we are going to have 5,500 megawatts of power, knowing we need 800 megawatts in the Province - and that is all ·,;e need and that is all '1-Te can take at this point in time - •,;hen is he going to start the transmission system that will enable him to bring that 800 megawatts of ?Olver into the Province? And <,;hat are you going to do for the next four or five or six years with the 5,500 megawatts of oower in the Uooer Churchill that is not available to us that we cannot take down through Quebec. That is why he is going to proclaim the legislation.

The reason he is going to proclaim the legislation is because Quebec will not permit us access through that Province. \ITell, I 'llould presume that if they will net permit us access through the Province before he proclaims the legislation, then they will not permit us access after he ~reclaims it. ~ma-c 'llill Newfoundland do with 4, 400 mega1vatts of power c:n the Upoer Churchill that •,;e have nowhere tCJ go with? .".nd is it the minister's opinion that having oroc:laimed this legislation we •,;ill continue on tvith the 'ievelo;m:ent cf the Lower Churchill that will aive us another 2, 300 :r.ecra1,.ratts that we o,.rill not know what to do •t~ith? c\ IJ C1 7

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3015 GH - 2 ~IR. CHAIR!\1AN (Butt): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. "".ARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I will just briefly respond. I mean, the first thir.g we are obviously going to do is we are going to achieve equity and fairness in respect to that Upper Churchill power, and the first claim on that power has to, and this is the way it was always intended, has to be for the people of Newfoundla~d. So, the first thing we are going - it may be more than 800 megawatts, - and I will not get into - MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) MR. MARSHALL: And so there is an excess.

If there is an excess - the first thi~g with that excess that we are going to be sure that there is no doubt, ~here is absolutely no doubt, that future generations of people in this Province will have the first claim and the right to that excess. Now, in the duration what is going to happen - we are very, very pleased with, as I say, the reaction that has been received in certain quarters t~ this legislation to the postive way that it has been achieved. And I can tell the hon. member that what we do, we intend to see that witb. respect to the excess the people of Newfoundland receive fair~ess and equity.

With respect to the balance of that power we are quite confident that for the period of time that it is not needed by the people of this Province for the period of time - and, hopefully, that may be short the way the Province is developing now - that we can find that we will ~e able - AN HON . !-1EMBER: Yes, in a couple of hundred years. 3 :j Ci A

PeP~-er lS" l'9SQ Tape No . 3015 :Fi- 3 M.;\ . ~~..li.~SP.ii .L L : a ccu!Jh: o:: hn·•rT"'td years no.,.1. :e •.-;ill be able to find and sec•.u::e , 'tr . Chairman, qood , secure markets i:or t'::!at pot.,;er because, after all, ne a:e part of Canaca, number one , a~cl being a p~t o: Canada , surel y to God we ha•1e a right to transmit cur ooHer in the same way that the Province cf Ontaric :-,as a !".:.gh1: to sell Libb ·J' s beans do1•n here :md does not have to sell tJ1em from Ouebec "t:') :-ie•" arunsl·ti_ck 1:0 Ne va Sco1:ia before 1:hey ar~ive down here . so, we are q;;ite d 'J 0 ,. .• '

':. December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3016 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL : confident, Mr. ~. as a result of all of the factors that with respect to the excess that there will be fairness and equity for the people of this Province either by reserving it for future generations, which will be done anyway, and with respect to the excess we are quite confident that we will get markets.

Now with respect to the transmission lines as suggested, and I know the hon. members there opposite have suggested, "the simple fact of the matter is impressed as the financial community is, and impressed as the people of Newfoundland are with the actions taken by this government - !II..R. FLIGHT: Depressed. MR. MARSHALL : -no,as impressed as they are,it is quite obvious that one cannot obtain financing for a transmission line until you have the source of the power secured. I mean that is quite obvious. We believe we have it secured.

We are telling the people of the Province, we are telling the people outside, there are two conditions that have to be met, number one, first of all the intra vires, or the legality of the act has to be established, when that is established we see no problem with the other. When that is done, no problem with transmission line. In the meantime, this Province is going ahead with its planning with respect to the tower Churchill development and we hope to be able to develop that great source of power up there and to be able to use it as all other Canadians in our country are able to use their own natural resources.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Shall the amendment carry? The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. 3 ·j '1 n

i:' December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3016 NM - 2 MR. FLIGHT: Just one quick one; I just want to tell the minister this in case he is not awarE: of it. By 1987 if we shut down Holyrood, the requira~ents for this Province, the electrical requirements for this Province, ., ~.!. we shut Holyrood down and consider the growth that we may be looking at, according to Ne<llfoundland Hydro 'tle will only need 1300 megawatts of power, until 1987. Now, Mr.

Chairman, that is seven years, that is seven years of IV"hat r.ve are - There will still be 3000, if we take that 13~0 megawatts from Upper Churchill,there will still be 3000 megawatts of power, almost three times what we are using in the whole Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, almost. And the minister says •in the short te=: li'hat does he consider short term? Seven years is a long time in a man's life. And for the next seven years we are only going to require 1300 megawatts, if we shut down Holyrood. So, Mr.

Chairman,the 5500 megawatts of power available to us in Churchill Falls will probably last this Province well into the bTentieth century, well into the twenty thousand and something. So the minister is prepared to shut it down and say, "Well, as we need it, we will pay $1 billion for it, we will pay the interest, and we will leave that power in Labrador. " It is madness, Mr. Chairman, madness. MR. CHAIRMll..N (Butt) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : I did not say that. The hen. gentleman - MR. FLIGHT: That is what the minister said.

MR. !-1ARSHALL: You know, I just reitereate the remarks I made a few moments ago. I will not repeat them. MR. STIRLING: ~r. Chairman. HR. CHAIRMA..."l: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Yes, because the House Leader has said that it is very important for Hansard to accurately record this particular debate; let there be no doubt, Mr. Chairman, that on this side of the House we are accepting what the Premier, and ;:) ,-, 1 u I

December 16 , 1980 Tape No . 3016 Nr1 - 3 ~ffi.. STIRLI~G : what the P=esicient of the Council , what the gov ernment has said, L~ good faith. This is a ~ill which ~~e P r~~ier has said is the best way of accomplishing the purpose . He has had the benefit of all the leg al advice . Let it be recorced t!lat ·.>~e have not seen t!lat legal advice, although in the public discussion earlier it was said t'lat it would be proviced . It has not been seen . a G I/

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3017 IB-l ~-1R. STIRLING: We are taking the word of the Premier in the same context that if we werp the government,having the benefit of all the legal advice and without wanting to put in the legal recorc"- withou-:: wanting to put in the public record the basis of our case, 'rle would expect the Opposition to accept our word. And that is the basis under which >ve are proceeding, that we are accepting the word of the Fremier and the government that this is the best approach to follow.

We ourselves introduced a suggestion a week before this was tabled which was to accomplish the same purpose, which was to force the renegotiation cf the Upper Churchill contract. And that our purpose was that we could use the indirect taxation route which was a new law granted under the new constitution cr the prevision is being put there under the new constitution which would enable this Province to do essentially the same thing. Mr.

Chairman, there have been many points that could have been brought out, which undoubtedly will be brought out by Quebec and some of those who will oppose it 1 which we have refrained from doing in this House because we accept the fact that all of us together wust be putting forth the best possib~e case to reopen that contract. But let us be reasonable about it and let us not ridicule other attempts or otr.er ef=orts and let us realize that we are in a process of trying to recover one of the sources of the Upper Churchill or the Lower Churchill and that we must build the transmission lines.

Our recommendation is that we proceed. Our recommendation is we take the Lower Churchill Development Corporation advice. t'le think that is a good instrument for the development. But let it be recorded in the same context that the President of the Council (Hr. t-!arshall) bro~ght up this point, that he wanted to have Eansard show accurately what is being said. We have not attempted to mak-; the Qcebec case. We have avoided completely the alternative a :·j -·~ 1

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3017 IB-2 MR. STIRLING: of negotiating with Quebec in the total sense, all of the Upper Churchill and the Lower Churchill and the total development for Quebec. We accept it and that is why we are letting this go through without a great deal of detailed debate, is that we accept the word of the Premier and the government side that this is in the best interests of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador and we wish to support it. On motion, amendmeP~ ~~rried. On motion, clause 2 as amended, carried. On motion clause 3 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT): Shall clause 4 carry? ~~- MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman. MR. CHAI~~N: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHA~ L: Mr. Chairman, there are two amendmen~s to clause 4 that I would like to nrnnose. They are not of great substance but in clause 4 (2) I move that

section 2 subsection 4 be amended by strikinc; out the '!lords "as if that Act and Statutorv Lease had no effect in law " and substituting the words "as if that Act and Statutory Lease had had no effect in law". The only difference in it, Mr. Speaker, it might seem- the member ~or LaPoile (Mr. Neary) smiles and in some respects I can agree - it is really a drafting change and it is really a legalistic change and the purpose of it is to assure that the amendment carries with it any accrued rights because you use the words "had had existed" rather than "had".

Section 4 ( 3) too, Mr. Chairman, is another amendment not of great substance but certainlv it should go in there. And I move that subsection (3) of

section 4 be arnenden hv striking out the words "notwithstanding subsections ( 1) and ( 2) "and substituting the words "not withstanding any other

section of the act''. a ::J 1 i..

December 16, 1980 Tape No. 3018 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this, in this particular section, relates to Twinco ana we want to ensure that Twinco rights remain vested in Twinco despite the provisions of the act, and we want to be assured that just does not extend to subsections one and two but to the act itself. carried. MR. CHAIR.11AN (Butt) MR. MARSHALL: On motion clause 4 as aMended, carried. On motion clause 5 through clause 9, The hon. the President of the Council. Mr. Chairman, I am sorry. I wonder could we revert back to clause 8? MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL : Clause 9? Clause 8, Mr.

Chairman. Before we do that I might indicate that the legislative draftsman has brought to my attention that I did not give the entire amendment - I am sorry. I apologize to Committee - in clause 4 (3) which will read, "that subsection (3) of "(4) is amended by adding immediately after the words, you keep in the words, notwithstanding subsections (1) and (2), and put in, "or any other

section of the act." So I would move that that be the amendment rather than the orevious one. MR . :-.EARY: to look after