Volume 1 ----- PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY..SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session -vERBATIM REPORT MONOAY, DECEMBER 1, 1975. SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 7

___ J.ll. December 1, 1975 The House met at 3 P.M. Ur. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape No. 180 NM- 1 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as required by

section 45 (2) of the Financial Administration Act, the Department of Finance is required to report to the House of Assembly within fifteen days after the commencement of each session all temporary loans raised under these sections of the Act and I am attaching here a list of the demand loans and treasury bills issued from March of 1975 up to and including November 18, 1975, so these are for the tabling. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question I guess for the Government House Leader in the absence of the Premier and the bon.

Minister of Mines and Energy • Could the minister tell us whether the third mortgage in respect of the Come By Chance refinery has in fact been executed- and if the minister does not know perhaps his colleague the Minister of Justice might- but the third mortgage, The government are not party to it, Ot course,the government have to consent to it and since we hold the second mortgage to the refinery,you know,naturally we have an interest in it. Could the minister tell the House where we are on it,please? ~R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, that third mortgage has not been executed. My understanding is that there was a preliminary or initial agreement which dealt with the third mortgage and a memorandum between the various parties~and that certain legal opinions and other things had to be done and there was a period of some days, thirty days, forty days, something like that - MR. OOODY: There were some conditions precedents. MR. WELLS: Yes. some conditions. I remember one of them were legal opinions had to be given satisfactory to both parties. I think all that has to be

December 1, 1975 Tape NO. 180 NM - 2 done if and before the third mortgage can be executed and to my knowledge it has not been executed yet. MR. SPEAKER: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary - I thank the bon. gentleman. Does he anticipate any difficulty in having the mortgage executed? Now I ask that only because the Minister of Finance mentioned some conditions precedent and this is the first I was aware that there were conditions precedent other than the normal legal flimflam of opinions and so forth and so on, drafting of documents.

Are there any substantial conditions precedent and if so does the minister anticipate any difficulty in having them met? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: I think it is premature to say that, Mr. Speaker. At this stage I think it will depend on the legal opinions which will deal not only with the substance of the agreement in the third mortgage but the legal opinions. I believe,will deal with the rights of outside parties as well. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I now give the bon. gentleaan a further supplementary on the same topic, same point; have the government consented to the execution of this third mortgage, and if so is their consent evidenced in this memorandum? In other words,are they a party to this memorandum to which the minister referred? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister without Portfolio, MR. WELLS: Only in the sense that the government will not execute unless the legal opinions received are satisfactory to government. MR. ROBERTS: That is not answering the question. MR.

WELLS: Well I think that is the position , though, Whatever the question is, Mr, Speaker, the government is concerned with the rights of third . parties as well as all matters connected with it and the legal opinion will advise government on all these matters, and only then if satisfied will government consent to the third mortg&Re. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. ~so

· necember 1, 1975 Tape No, 180 NM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I possibly did not make it clear,because I think the hon. gentleman is trying to be helpful and I take his answers in that light; HavE' the government- and when I say,' have the government consented; they obviously have not consented to the formal document because it has yet to be prepared,from what the minister is saying- but have the government consented in principle lto use a precise term loosely) have the government consented in princi;le to the proposals of the third mortgage,and if so have they done it- the minister mentioned a memorandum which appears to embody the present agreement between the various parties - are the government a party to that memorandum?

MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: Yes, and the third mort~age will be executed provided a, b, c, d, e, is satisfactory to government. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, I thank the hon, gentleman aaain. Would the government be prepared to table a copy of that memorandum? MR. WELLS: I do not think so, Mr. Speaker, not at this stage. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry and Azriculture.

I would like to ask the minister if he met with the farmers in Newfoundland this morning and if so does the government intend to grant the request to the farmers to set up a marketing board for farm products in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I did not meet with the farmers of Newfoundland this morning.

I met with the farmers mostly on the Avalon Peninsula. the dairy farmers, in respect to the question, mainly the question of land freeze or as we prefer to call it, development land in the area that we have designed,which in effect is called land freeze. We met with these people this morning and they were very concerned "-t51

December 1. 1975 Tape 181 IB-1 about the concept of the designation of development land which we mav use as the te~ 'land freeze', and what government's position wa5 now in respect to it, whether there were ~oing to be any changes in it, whether,in effect,that the dairy farmers in the Avalon Peninsula area, in the St. John's area, the immediate St. John's area could be assured of long-term commitMents in respect to that land. We talked about that. We talke~ shout the ouestion of the cost of feed in the Province. We also talked about a number of other minor questions and no conclusions were arrived at.

We are presently undergoing, as initiated by my colleague, the hon. ~'inister of Health, who was the previous minister, some suggestions in respect to the ouestion of the land freeze. I think in our position, government's position, that farmers have the ri!!'ht to knov _1ust what thev can expect in respect to the land freeze that was introduced in October 3, 1973. Are there going to be any ~hanp.es in respect to the long-term commitments of ~overnment in keepinp. this land under agricuJtural bounty? So right now, Mr.

Speaker, we are going to let them know within the next couple of months .1ust what the situation is. We pave them the departmental position this morninp. which we asked them to keep in confidence at this point in time, the sup.p.estion that I am going to bring i.t before governMent a~ the minister responsible for the department. They appear to he as satisfied as possible. They were not overly happy, of course, and until they have a commitment they will not he.

On the ouestion of land banking, quite a few of these nuestions arose, ;md "'e will hi' in a position within one month to three months to Jet them know the exact status in respect to the designation of development land i.n the area. I'R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoUe (Mr. Neary) • HR. NF.ARY: Mr. Srreaker, I thank the mini.ster for the answer, Sir, hut a supplementary, the much larger ouestion of the marketing of the farm pro~ucts. T. think the minister has had several representations recent]y from farm groups, especially in the C.reen Bay area.

What rloes the minister intend to ~o? noes he intend to set up a marketing board for farm pro~ucts in t~is Province? Or are there going to be meetin~s . ,.. 2 -+~

l)pcembpr 1, 1975 T~tpe 181 helrl or what? )VI>. SPF.AKER: ~IP. PO!TSSF.All: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. There "'111 be meetings helrl, 1'r. Sr>eaker. I dirl IB-2 have - the ~ctua1 C.reen Bay area did ask me and I suggested to them that it :Is impossible whHe the "Rouse is open. It is unfortunate that I cannot p;et out as much as I want to. I certain]v will between the time the House closes and the or>ening of the session in the New Year. But the question came up this morning in respect to the dairy farmers anrl some of the marketing problems.

But J al'l sure as the hon. member can appreciate as T hope the farmers of the Province appreciate that I am not by nature, birth or inclination a farmer or forester, but certainly it takes t:lme to become aware of these problems • I certainly ,.rfll. I hope to do that by meeting with these people. I know the problems they have in respect to marketing. I might say, by the "'ay, if everybody en1oyed the dinner I had yesterday which was Newfoundland lamb, Newfoundland potatoes and Newfoundland carrots and so on and so forth and really en~oyed the meal - AN "RON. MEMBER: Was it paid for? }Ill.

POUSSEAll: And I paid for it. ~~. NEARY: Bake apples? ~. POUSSF.All: Mv wife pa:l d for it out of her - no, I did not have bake apples, Labrador hake apples are very important. But that we do hl'lve an ap.:r:lcult\lral tMrket in this Province, there is no question about ft. The ]and we have :Is l:l.mited, 11nd the whole :Intention now of the problem in arriculture, of course, is to ensure that the land that we have that is agriculturally inclined, that it be kept for farmers.

The ouest ion of marketinp; is one that :l.s a big one that I have not become completelv aware of yet but that we wHl certainly when we meet with the farmers and find out the problems they have. It is our hope that they persist in agriculture and that many other people are added to the agricultural roles and hopefully we will he able to provide a market for these agricultural products in the near future. -tS3

.... -- ~ . ~ Dee~mber 1, 1975 Tape 181 IB-3 MR. SP'F.AKER : The hon. member for LaPoile (~r. Neary). MR. NEARY: }lr. Speaker, what does the }!inister of Transport at! on and Communications have to say about the criticism about the late hiring of snow clearing crews and maintenance crews for the Winter months? -~ · SPEAKP.R: The hon. ~inister of Transportation and Communications. !'fl . ~10RC<AN: ?lr. ~peaker, I am unable to answer that question because my department has not received anv criticism. ~IR. SPEAKEP: The han. member for J.N'oile (l'lr. Neary). 1-11'. NEAPY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary: Is the minister aware that the group of hip.hway workers that met in Gander over the weekend were severely critical of the m:l.nister's department for not hirinp, the snow clearinp. crews earlier than anticipated? Is the m:lnister aware of that? ~ . O RGA.~: Mr. Speaker, all the crews in my department who are norm;~ll v worldn!!; on !Hnter l'!:!lintenance were notified as long as two weeks when they would be hired and when the full complement of met1 would be on for the Vinter maintenance pro!';ramme, as long as two weeks ago. ~. SPf.AKEll: The hon. member for J.aPoile ("r. Neary). MR.

NEARY: ~r. Speaker, a ouestion for the hon. the Premier. T am glad to see him back in his seat today. Would the hon. the Premier tell the House tJhat action he has taken on the representation from the developing visual arts in connection with the arrangements ovPr ilt the ;lrts and Culture r.entre being placed unrler the Tl:l.rector of r.ultural Affair!< in the Province? Hhat is the Premier going to do about this situation? ., 4 '"t~

neeember 1, 1975, Ta~e 182, Page 1 -- anh MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier HON. F.D.~OORES: ~r. Sneaker, for the eultural critic on the other sirle of the House T would gladly reply that - -.,R. NF.ARY: What is that? MR. MOORES: - or the eritic with eultnre, if you prefer. l1R. NF.ARY: It is onl'• a question. I am not a critic. MR. MOORES: Mr. S~eaker, with all due resnect, Sir, the sub1ect is under intensive scrutinv at the present time and together with mv colleague, the ~inister of Tourism, we will be making our definitive policy known in the very near future. :-!R. SPF.AKF.R: The hon. the member for LaPoile.

MR. NEARY: 'fr. S~eaker, 1 would l:l.ke to ~ut a ouest ion to the Minister of Tourism, Sir. I \mnder if the Minister of Tourism could inform the House whether or not the Norma and Gladvs had a C.S.T. certificate, if she had been inspected bv the Trans~ort ins~ectors before she made her MR. SPF.AKF.R: The hon. ~he Minister of T~urism. !1R. HICKEY: Ah! Mr.

S~eaker, T •.;·ondered how lon~ I would wait for another surfacing of this :Issue, but let me 1ust sav as I have reneated in this House, I think about ten times last year, that the vessel d:l.d not reouire to be inspected or ~iven a C.S.I. eertificate inasmuch as the vessel does not carrv freight and does not carry passengers except the crew. I sunnose they eould he considered as passengers to a certain extent. However, Mr.

Sneaker, there is no doubt, there has never been any ,]ouht, there is no doubt today, that there is anything wrong with that vessel, that the vessel in anv way is anvthing other than seaworthy.

Possihlv to allav whatever fears might be left - I did not think there were anv, but in ease there are - we have somethin~ aboard that vessel which is much better that a r..s.T. certificate, and that is a gentleman who was born and raised- a c:mta:ln at age nineteen - in Grand Bank, went to the Grand Banks for vears, is a master of, and has been a master of one of the largest ocean going tankers - got his experience on this kind of vessel, the same as the Norma and Gladys, left his nosition, or got leave of absence to ca~tain this vessel, to sail her around the world. Now I do not know what more proof, Mr.

Sneaker, anvone would want as to seaworthiness than that. 455

December 1, 1975, Tape 182, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Would the minister then tell the House if this gallant captain and his crew are covered under the Workmen's Compensation ~lan in the ~rovince ' or if they are covered by insurance of any kind, and if the schooner herself is covered by insurance with Lloyd1 or any other company? Or can she be insured, because the minister refused to have the C.S.I. certificate issued before the ship sailed? MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, to set the record straight, I did not refuse -in fact we tried desperately because of some people. including my bon. friend -to have the vessel inspected 1 and no one would inspect it because it is impossible,as I said~to have a C.S.I. certificate issued to a vessel that does not carry freight or passengers - that is number one . Number two the vessel is and has always been insured through Lloyd's of London,which again speaks for the seaworthiness of the vessel. The vessel is insured for a half million dollars, Mr. Speaker.

That is not too had for a vessel that was purchased for $18,000, I think again which speaks for the seaworthiness of the vessel. I am not quite sure and I cannot answer the bon. gentleman with regards to compensation but I will certainly endeavour - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, are the crew covered under this insurance. MR. HI CKEY: I am not sure if they are covered under compensation and I will endpavour to get that information and be glad to inform my bon. friend. ~EAK~ The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister: Would the minister care to table any correspondence between his office and the Canadian Steamship Inspection Branch of the Department of Transport in connection with this certificate that the vessel is supposed to have? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Spe2ker, I do not see the necessity of tabling that information. If the hon. gentleman has anything in mind, if he has a question with regards to it,I will be glad to field any questions he has 1 But I am not going to come and table everything I do here, Mr. Speaker.

This House is going to be rather cluttered up if every minister is going to .·1 cs I ....I

December. ·1, 1975, Tape 182, Page 3 apb table every piece of paper be is involved with. MR. NEARY: Well look, Sir, let me be a little more specific with the minister. Did the minister at any time indicate to the Canadian Steamship ~nspectors that the Norma and Gladys was a private yacht, classed as a private yacht to avoid the Canadian Steamship inspection? MR. HIC.KEY: No, -t 57

December 1, 1975 Tape 183 PK - 1 Mr. Speaker, We asked the Marine Department, the Marine Division of M.O.T. in the Province to inspect the vessel. The M.O.T. people came back and informed us that they do not inspect vessels of this type which are classed as more of a yacht rather than anything else because they do not carry passengers and freight. MR.~_!lAKER : The hon. Member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Would the hon. minister state whether the vessel was surveyed by or inspected by Lloyd~? You know, who had control of the vessel?

After all there is a crew on board, and they too are entitled to some kind of guarantee- or not guarantee, but as far as possible to ascertain that the vessel is seaworthy. MR. HICKEY: ----- Mr. Speaker, there is nobody any mor@ conscious of the fact that there is a crew aboard than I and have been from day one. I can tell my bon. friend that,yes,the vessel was inspected almost daily, certainly weekly, Every change and every bit of refurbishing of that vessel was supervised by a Lloyd's representative, a man who has all the expertise and who was certainly more than well qualified, Mr.

Harvey, a man who has spent his entire life dealing with shipping and in more particularly dealing with vessels of this tYPe, wooden vessels, having worked for the Provincial Government or having worked for- yes,having worked for the Provincial Government initially, the small boats Division of Fisheries~and from there he is also a marine architect, and, Mr. Speaker, certainly it is impossible to find anyone with more qualifications than Mr. Harvey, He supervised the entire project. MR.

SPEAKER: -------- Before I recognize the hon. member, I would wish to draw to the attention of all bon. members the rule that a question must not multiply with slight variations, a similar question on the same point, I say that so t~at, and I have no way of knowing if there are further questions on the Norma and Gladys that particular rule will be borne in mind. The hon. Member for Fogo. CAP~. _ YINSOR: Mr. Speaker, you know, I have lost my train of thought. However I will direct a question to the hon. Minister of Fisheries. Has the minister been informed that there is some interference with

December 1, 1975 Tape 183 PK- 2 the fishermen at Random Island by outsiders, Norwegians and fishermen from other provinces~fishing close to land in that area? MR. CARTER: Random Island? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR~-~ARTER: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, can the hon. minister tell the House if he has had any complaints from Trinity Bay in connection with interference from foreign draggers? MR. ~EAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. NEARY: -·------ Well it could be. Trinity Bay is a big area, you know. So is Random Island. MR.

NEARY: Yes, right. PREMIER MOORES: The same bay. Well, Mr. Speaker, if the Premier is so anxious to answer questions could the Premier tell the House whether he has a new car on order and is it true that it has bullet proof glass, or dome over it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. ------- MR. F.MOORES: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect it is not bullet proof is the problem with the han. Member from LaPoile, it is some other type of proof that we need. MR. NEARY: ----- Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not answer the question if he has a new car in order or not, but, Sir - MR.~EAKER: Order, please!

The bon. gentleman knows that he cannot comment upon a minister's, the Premier's, or any minister's - MR._N.~Y: Sir, would the hon. - Order, please! - refusal to answer a question ·, and to comment on it would be out of order. The bon. }!ember for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: - ·---- ~lr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could tell the House now is it the intention of his office or the government to cancel youth conferences in view of the fact that the recreation and -t59

December 1, 1975 Tape 183 PK - J Mr._N~ youth programme for the Province has been scrapped in the austerity programme? ~.___E~EAKER: The hon. the Premier. MR. __ ~RES: Mr. Speaker, the youth conference was held on Friday and Saturday. It is not the intention of the government to cancel youth conferences because of the recreation programme being deferred, in the main, on behalf of the Province. Whilst recreation is important to youth and to adults as well , the fact is, Sir, that there are other concerns.

I am sure , on behalf of youth which are of material value to the government and to the people of this Province. And certainly it is not our intention to defer or cancel any contribution the youth of this Province have to make to the government and the well-being of this Province. ~~ _§_P~A!{ER: The hon. Member for Fogo. CAP_!. WINSOR: No. ~~SPEAKER: I thought that the hon. gentleman wished to ask a question. The hon. Member for LaPoile. _MR ~ NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Health, Sir, could tell the House whether it is still the intention of his department and the ~overnment to place all of the hospitals in Newfoundland under boards of msna~ement? And, if so, how many hospitals, you know, have been placed under boards of management, and will the rest of them be placed under boards say this year, before the end of this year or next year? 460

-------- December 1, 1975. Tape 184 RH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon . Minister of Health. HON. H. COLLINS: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot at the moment indicate the number of hospitals which have been placed under boards. I will certainly undertake to get that information. With regard to government policy in placing further hospitals under boards, there is no blanket policy in that regard. Each situation is dealt with in terms of the situation as it applies. But with regard to the number under boards I will certainly ~et the information for the hon. member. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Manpower. He looks like he has been awaiting something down there. In view of the fact that since last the House met Bowaters have gone on strike in Corner Brook, could the minister bring us up to date as to efforts which he and his officials are making 1n an effort to try to resolve the strikes which have now closed the three paper mills in the Province? And not only are the paper mills down, but of course their woods operations are down as well. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HON. E. MAYNARD (Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations): Mr.

Speaker, we are very cognizant of the fact that the paper industry in Newfoundland is down but we are also cognizant of the fact that we have to try the re~ular conciliation procedures and we will do that throughout the next few weeks. That is the action that we will take, the action that I think the government should take. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Could the minister tell us what conciliation procedures he has in mind in view of the fact that under the law of Newfoundland conciliation is a stage leading up to a lawful strike.

All three of these strikes I am told are lawful and therefore surely the regular conciliation procedures do not apply. Just what does he have in mind? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, we have in mind the same procedures that 46.1

December 1, 1975. Tape 184 RH - 2 we have used in many other industrial disputes in the Province, and that is the way we will continue to provide conciliation services, whether it be by the people from the department or some other means. We will continue to provide that in the paper workers' strike. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman. A further supplementary: Has the minister either directly or through the agency of his officials been in touch with the parties involved in these three strikes? MR. MAYNAim: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am grateful for that.

Could the minister be a little more forthcoming with respect to his answer. When and to what effect and with whom? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, when I say yes, we have been in contact - sure we have been in contact and I do not see any other people in Newfoundland except for the companies and the unions that we could be in contact with. The question was a little bit off base, if I might say that, with all due respects to the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPF..AKF.R: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary: If anybody is off base right now it is the minister. But could the minister please tell us then when his officials have been in contact,or more precisely, if he wishes, whether they have been in touch with these unions and with the companies involved since the strikes began? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MAYNARD: seeing that I am off base, Mr. Speaker, I submit that it is none of his business. MR. SPEAKER: Order, l'lease: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman's conduct speaks for itself.

But may I try a further supplementary - perhaps a question to the Premier instead of a supplementary. Could the Premier indicate whether the government are prej)ared to appoint, and if they are not prepared to 462

--------- December 1, 1975. Tape 184 RH - 3 appoint, are they considering the appointment of industrial inquiries in the.se three disputes because this seems to have been the method which the government have adopted, I may add with some success,in respect of a number of other labour disputes throu~hout the Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the answer is absolutely no at this present time The situation.as the hon. Leader of the Opposition well knows,is a national one.

It is one where the pulp and paper industry of Canada and the unions of. that industry have been set up as a particular national effort.At this particular point in time for us to interfere at a local level would be completely wrong, other than to help in conciliation and mediation and it is something that where the anti~ inflation review board comes in and such questioning at this time, Sir, in mv opinion, is totally irresponsible and doing no good whatsoever. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary: Based on the Premier's temperate answer, is it then the opinion of the - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please~ I direct these remarks to hon. gentlemen on both sides, right and left. I wish to remind them that the thirty minute oral question period is clearly one for asking for information and for giving information and it is not a debating period. It could well be ~rgued that the Chair could have intervened before, but one cannot sit with a mental stop watch. I think when something tends to become apparent then one intervenes.

I do not not wish to he overly restrictive but I do wish to point out and it is qui.te clearly stated in Beauchesne and :f_ndeed others, authorities, that the purpose of the question period is to look for information and to give information It is not a debating period, but rather an information period. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you very much, 463

December 1, 1975 Tape no. 185 Page 1 - mw ~-·- _R_obe2:!__s_: Mr. Speaker, I am glad Your Honour did not cite an authority for that, because I think it is well established. My question is for the Premier, and I trust it is a temperate question, Sir, based on his temperate reply - I said temperate, Your Honour. Is it the government's view that these strikes will not be settled unless and until they are resolved on a national level? Because, as the Premier has told us several times, this is, in his view at least, a national dispute. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. MR. MOORES: That is not necessarily_ so, Mr.

Speaker. We will do everything we can in our provincial jurisdiction to make sure that we do everything possible to bring those strikes to an end. As a matter of fact some of the circumstances that pertain to our mills in Newfoundland, particularly in Grand Falls, are of an extraordinary nature whereby they depend on an international market for their products, where most of the mills in Canada depend on a north-south flow in the marketing of their product.

That being the case, where Grand Falls, a~ an example~cannot meet its orders, it means that the Scandinavian mills are more likely to fill in the gap in that case. That puts, I think, extraordinary pressure on the Grand Falls mill and the Newfoundland mills, because I think Bowaters are pretty well the same. That being the case, Sir, we have a special interest. I have already been in touch with Mr. Pepin, I have been in touch with Mr.

Tittemore and I have been in ~ouch with the head of the unions, not in any conciliatory role, not in a mediation manner, but ju~t to find out information to see what we can do as a government, on a very unofficial basis. And, Sir, that is basically the situation as of now. ~~ · -S~EP: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~m. ROBERTS: I thank the Premier. I think now we are getting somewhere on it.

Could the Premier then indicate whether he proposes to make similar approaches to t~e management of the Linerboard - we own linerboard and it is as much an international product as the others - but the union acting in behalf of the employees at Linerboard and also the management and thP. unions involved in the strike at Bowaters? 464

December 1, 1975 Tape no. 185 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. MR. MOORES: The situation is, Mr. Speaker, that in all three instances we are as anxious to get the dispute settled as we possibly can be. It is not easy, because we are caught, as I think the Leader of the Opposition well knows, in a national bargaining situation hetween the industry and the union - the union as opposed to unions. That being the case, the Newfoundland mills, even though they may have different circumstances as far as marketing is concerned, their basic problem in a national context is the same.

That being the case, it is very difficult, but we are doin~ our utmost, Sir, in all three instances. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a further question on the same subject hut not a supplementary, I think.

Could the minister - l am sorry, Premier, in the absence of the Chairman of the Board of the Linerboard Mill, and I am not sure whether any of his other colleagues should be the recipient of this question,so I will address it to the Premier, and he can refer as need he: Are the management of Linerboard about to make a further offer to their emoloyees who are on, of course, a lawful strike and who are represented by the same union as the others? MR. SP~: The hon. Premier. MR. MOORES: I will have to take notice of that question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice, Sir. In. view of the fact that the minister has already made a public statement that the Carr case falls under federal jurisdiction, would the minister tell the House who gets the hond money for anvone who jumps bail in cases of this nature? MR. SPEAKER: Order, olease: I am not sure that that question would be in order. There is reference here with resoect to questions to the Minister of .Justice with respect to legal matters, and it is my opinion that that question would be out of order. 465

December 1, 1975 Tape no. 185 Page 3 - IIIW MR. NF.ARl: Could Your Honour tell me why it would be out of order? MR. SPEAKER: Yes, I am lookin~ for it. I will give it to the hoo. gentleman perh~ps before the day has expired rather than hold up the House now, and I do believe as well that the thirty minutes has expired. ORDERS OF niE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Order 3, Committee of Ways and Means, and the alllendment r n t'le motion . The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SEMMONS: Hr.

Speak~ r, member s will recall that just pr~~r to the adjournment on Friday, I had moved an amendment to tbe motion , the amendment being as follows: To amend tbe motion by striking out all the words after "that" and substituting therefor the following; "This House regrets the failu r e of the Government to disclose completely and fully the present financial situ ation of this Prov ince and the govern ment thereof." .J . 466

December 1, 1975 MR. SIMMONS: Tape 1R6 Speakinf to the amendment at the time we adjourned I l~IIS making the IB-1 point that I fee] very stronp.ly, feel very, very strongly that the government and government spokesmen have not been at all levelling w:lth us, w:lth members of the House, w:lth the- people of Newfoundland and Labrador, about rhe real, true financial situation in which we find ourselves, in Which we have found ourselves for the past several months.

I had noted that suddenly it seemed among government spokesmen there was a great urgency to level, to come clean, to tell it as it is, to let :It all hang out. 1 heard the ~inister of Industrial Development on a television programme last week mention that he felt his administration, the administration of Which he is a part, had to level with the people. The ~inister of Finance in his Budget Speech made much of the need to level with the people. Hhat does all this mean, Mr. Speaker?

Is it an admission on the par.t of those spokesmen for government that they have not been levelling all along, that somehow there has been something they have not been telling us and telling the people of Newfoundland? Is that what it means? fAr. Speaker, I submit that :Is exactly ~~at it does mean. I submit that they have not been levelling with us. I !!;aVe as one of many examples.,which J shall come to today, the example of equ;tl.ization grants. '[ contend, ~~r.

Speaker, from some information that was given to me from an Ottawa source back last March,and therefore that :Information was equally available to persons assisting the Minister of Finance in the compiling of his hudget, I submit that from the information that l<'as given to me about the amount of equalization the government could expect that the figure of $210 mUl:!.on revenue to be Anticipated from Ott11wa for eoualizat:lon grants, that figure was :Inflated, and that it was inflated with the full knowledge that the figure would be substantially less th11n that. At that time, wr. Speaker -Mr.

Speaker, the Vinister of Transportation m~v not find this very interesting. He may find it ~11 11 bir. .ioke be~au,;e at that time, ¥r. Speaker, he was not party to it. He have to say that for him. He had not then forced 467

~Pr~mbe r 1. 1975 T:one I R6 hi" w;~v in t t> thf' rilhinc>t. !\ut he is there now, ~· r. Sreake r . for ~>hilt r ea!'nns \~P :~1 t know. llut. he ~o:M~ not thc>re <>t the time. So 1 r;~nnot h;~nr thi~ nne on him vet, ~r. Spe:~ke r. T can nppreci:~te th11t he rlnt>s not finti the !';nhjPct pi!rtic:ular]v serious becaus e J r~-2 " "' not sure h~ nndPrst:onrls the full impHc:11rion. \tr. sreak er , of what is bc-inlf s:ti d -ch:~t the p.ovt>rn!N!nt, the ~'iniste r of Finance as he then wn:; (t•r.

P.~t r le) anti othe r " brought into th is House on !'lar ch 12th A "et nf fismres rh"t rlid not pr esent the whole truth and H~tures 1-'hic:h thev ~·P rP A~' ilre tli<l nnt ~>re s ent the whole t ruth. T r ~>reAt thilt l:~s~ ~Arr.h t.he rovPrnmen t could hav~ hi!cl n::c:o::ss - Anrl t'irl havP nrre11s, T 1rohmit to the samP f nfonnntion I did . •>hich informatit>n Is not " mAtter of ~indFi~ht now t.hat t eite several months efter but t•hich informa t ion 1 mentio ned to the napers six or J< ~v~>n 111onth,; afl,o.

T f VNJ w>~nt to check the l'!nrch IJth edit ion of The !':til v News ,c>r The Fven lng Telegral!l of the sar>e date,you ,,of) 1 finn t hat In bo t h ~:tre r s T was quotecl as sayin ~ in part that the rovnrnment , T felt, hr-tcl beP.n I ess than honest becau1;e they had nve rr.~<t il'll1te tl hv $10 mlllton the amnunt they e.'C'pected to r eceive fro"' ntcaw<~ in et1u111iz:ttinn rrants . That Is a statement that 1 made six or se ven monthR IIP.O on the rlay aftt>r the mini.ste r bro u!!ht down his butir.ct on ~•nrc: h 12th.

T clicl 1t because I had a ~ces s to infonnat:io n w hfc~ t he nresPnt ~'i~>ist e r of finar.ce haF acknowled~ed is true, acc:u rate, cor r ect lnf ~ rmation . 1 suh rni t. 468

December 1, 1975 Tape no. 187 Page 1 - mw Mr. Spea~er, that 1hey knew that information then, six or seven months ago. The Minister of Finance, in some television comments yesterday, rationalized by saying, ah, Ottawa cannot tell us what we are going to get next year. MR. DOODY: Right. _MR. SIMMONS: That is true, Mr. Speaker. I have no disagreement with him on that point. That is not the issue, Mr. Speaker, Of course, they do not know yet. There are a number of variables, and there were a number of variables this year. But the fact remains, Mr.

Speaker, that in this particular year the information, much as it is now being reflected in the supplementary budget, was available to the government six months ago, not only on equalization but on a number of other sets of figures that I shall come to in a moment. They knew, Mr. Speaker. Talk about variables all you want, talk about uncertainties all you want, in this particular instance, Mr. Speaker, the government did know.

The records show they did know and that is what makes the sin all the more shocking that they should compound it by going through the mockery of telling us last Spring something that was far, far from the truth - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DOODY: Sit down! Sit down! MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order! r believe the hon. gentleman is out of order in making suggestions or imputations or inferences of lack of honesty on the part of any hon. member, individually or collectively. And I would point out to him that his remarks are in that direction. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, to a point of order. I have no intention of appealing Your Honour's ruling, but I wonder if Your Honour would be so kind as to cite a citation or reference. My reason for so 469

December 1, 1975 Tape no. 187 Page 2 requesting is that I thought it had been well established in this House over many years that one could not - MR. MORGAN: Speech, speech. speech! MR. SIMMONS: Does ~e not have the right to be heard in silence? MR. ROBERTS : Mr, Speaker, if the hon. Minister of Transportation would spend as much time snow clearing as he does trying to interrupt - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: - we would have clearer roads and a better House of Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Now, Sir, as I was saying.

It is my understanding that ft i~ quite out of order to say at any time that an hon. gentleman, be he a minister or not, is making a statement that is designed to deceive or is untrue. I mean there have been 1,004 rulings and 2,000 people have been asked to withdraw and have, But it is equally in order to say that a statement that has been made is not a correct statement and that a statement is wrong , and incorrect. And what my hon. friend from Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons ) .1ust said was that the statements in the budget were not true, and I submit that that is true.

They were not true, Your Honour has a page therP.It is worth settling for once and for all. Could Your Honour give us a reference please? That is all I am asking for the benefit of the gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Mor~an). MR. SPEAKER: My ruling was, and this refers to a ruling also made Friday, that the statement or inference or imputation of dishonesty or deceit is out of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition has risen on a point of order relating to the Chair's ruling. I would call the attention of hon. members to Beauchesne,

section 154, and

section 4 and then further on. on page 130. We will start off at the ton of the page. "The imputation of bad motives, or motives different from those acknowledged, misrepresenting the language of another, or accusing him, in his turn, of misrepresentation, charging him with falsehood or deceit; or contemptuous or insulting language of any kind; all these are unparliRJDentary and call for prompt interference." I esnecially noint out, the imputation of bad motives. It goes on, as the 470

IJe.cember 1 , 19 75 Tape no. 187 Page 3 - mw Leader of the Onposition quite accurately quoted; ''It is not out of order to say that a member has obstructed the business of the House, or tha .t a speech is an abuse of the rules 'of the House." Tt was (.5) · to which I was referring.

"It is not unparliamentary to say that a Matement is untrue, hut it :!.s unparliall!entary t.o say that it was untrue to the knowledge of the member addressing the House." It will be seen in 155 as well that certain examples are J!;iven of PX!lre!lsion!l which are unparliamentary and it speci-fically !ltates here, "and call for prompt interference.· · It is not a !'ermissive matter for the Chair, it is an obligatory matter for the r.halr. Now the point I wish to make is that while obviously one mav say a statempnt is untrue, or a

December 1, 1975 Tape No. 188 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: statement is true, when one brings up the question of honesty and states or implies that a person, individually or collectively, a member of the House, is dishonest then one is in the area of commenting upon motive. One may say t~. at that statement is untrue and it is completely neutral whether the person knows it was untrue or does not know it was untrue.

But when one comments on honesty then I suggest one is in the area of motive and when one makes a specific reference to dishonesty or lack of honesty then that quite clearly falls within the area of imputation of false or unavowed motives. The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. ROBERTS: All you said was that the statements were untrue. AN HON. MEMBER: That is all that was said. MR. RORF~ Of course they were. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I hesitate to interrupt the hon. gentleman a~ain,but I should point out that as hon. members know,and knowing is one thing and observing is another 1 that obviously debate on the ruling of any member who happens to be in the Chair is out of order. I would suggest that informal comment back and forth is also out of order and the rules quite clearly provide what is in order. The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MP .• SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speak£r. I had hoped also in anticipating what Mr. Speaker was about to say with the latest interruption that I had the right to be heard in silence.

I am aware of that but I get the clear feeling that other members of the Rouse may not be fully aware of it, Mr. Speaker. In any event I shall press on. The statements about equalization were untrue, Whether that, Mr. Speaker, had to do with dishonesty- and I did not intend usin~ that word -or sheer incompetence or lack of information is for all of us who judge these matters to decide. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker - MR. DOODY: To a point of order, Sir, Your Honour has already decided that these terms were not permissible in this House. I have sat here 472

December 1, 1975 Tape No. 188 NM- 2 for quite some time, Your Honour, and listen to my honesty, and integrity, the whole bit and' piece being impugned and maligned by the hon. member opposite. Your Honour has given what I had considered an obligatory decision in ruling as you have don~. Now my friend has neither withdrawn, Sir, nor indeed has he really gone away frma the trend em which he was. ~. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think the operative word in the citations that have been made have been on page 130 of Beauchesne,

section 155, subsection (3), that is charges of uttering a deliberate falsehood. Now my colleague has not made any accusations r of a person deliberately uttering a falsehood or questioned the honesty of an hon. member opposite' · I submit that my colleague is totally in order in what he is saying in the sense that he is not deliberately- or he is not saying that the minister has deliberately uttered a falsehood in this House. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, to that point of order, Sir, It would appear to me, Sir, that the gentleman who is speaking at the .oment, the memher for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir is challenging Your Honour's ruling. That is the impression that I get. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. He is asking - MR. NEARY: And, Sir, there is a procedure in this bon. House, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member or anybody in this House wishes to challenge Your Honour's ruling there is a procedure that he or she can take and I would submit that is the point of order that my friend made and the Minister of Finance. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I shall hear the Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker, what the bon. member is doing, his having been brought up by Your Honour~is simply now inviting the House to consider whether or not the bon. minister is guilty of some dishonesty. He has not left the subject matter which he was stopped from carrying on with and he is attempting to do by innuendo what he was told by Your Honour not to do and it is, Your Honour, completely out of order in this House. 473

December 1, 1975 Tape No. 188 NH- 3 MR. SPEAKER: Hon. members on various sides have had their contribution to make in the argumentation and I have listened with interest to their submissions. The specific referenc e cited by the hon. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde refers to suba ection (3) of 155 Beauches ne, charges of uttering a deliberate falsehood and that being out of ord~ r. However, my ruli ng was based upon

section 1 of 155 , 474

necemher 1, 1975 l'fl-1 HR. SP~:AKER: •~aim~utation of fal~e or unavowed motives. I stated then and Twill state now that to infer dishonesty, to su~~est it, to raise it in a hypothetical manner with respect to any han. member individually or collectively, collectively heing to infer it toward the government, collectively bein~ also to infer it toward the Opposition or any caucus, that this is in my opinion the imputation of false or unavowed motives. A lack of honesty can be nothinp. but that.

T am no~• directing the hon. gentleman to withdraw any aspersion or imputation of lack of honesty which he previously made and would certainly hope that that will be the end of the matter and the bon. gentlem~n wiJl then be able to continue wHh his speech withont further 1.nterroption. I think it is necessary that he withdraw any imputation of unavowed or false motives. ?-!~. SIMMONS: l'lr. Speaker, T t.•ithrlraw without oual Uication. T have now done so, Sf r, for the second time.

Had the ~'inister of Finance been listening, that t.•as the first statement I made after your interjection of a couple of moments a~o, that I had not intended to impute any dishonesty. T then went on to ask other matters that at the moment have not been ruled unparliamentary, matters relating to incompetence, relating to a lack of information at the time the budget was prepared, and these are the comments I was making, ~r. Speaker, at t~e time I was interrupted. So. I repeat them, that,you know, was it a lack of information?

Was it sheer incompetence on the people who contrived or compiled the budget? 1-lha tever the reason, ~r. Speaker, I cannot stand here and say that something is true when I have evidence to the contrary, when T know now as I did last March that the figure, the projected figure of $210 milHon ,~as a faJse fismre. It was not a true figure to the best of my information, information which has since been documente~. ha~ been substantiated by the ~inister of Finance himself Who stan~s here ~ couple of days ~go last Monday, a we~k today, and tells us th~t the information was in~ee~ untrue. I sa:ld that last ~~arch, "'r.

Speaker, and I said it on ~ood authority. Time has proven that I was ripht on that particular occasion. The information is not true, untrue :l.nformat1on that we were given in respect to equalizat:l.on !!:rants, 475

~cember 1, 1975 Tape 189 IB-2 and as I proceed, I will indicate that in other areas information which is not the truth. Mr. Speaker, I will find ways to say it after a while. They do not want to hear it. They can continue to interrupt.

But I will find within this narrow list of words that one can use I will find the words that convey what I want to say, what I want to say and say as strongly as I know how, that I am very upset as a member and as a citizen and as a taxpayer that we find ourselves :l.n the situation where we are not getting a true picture of the financial mess in which we find ourselves in this Province. That disturbs me. It upset me, and I want to know why.

Why is it we should be put through this charade, this nonsense, this mockeryl We have a situation where we cannot even rely on a budget to tell us where we are as a group of citizens, as a Province. The discrepancy, ~r. Speaker, in the equalization grants is only one of many other discrepancies. Let us look at the salary figures, ~r. Speaker, which the minister mentions. (I will get a budget in s minute. I believe I left mine outside.) We look, Mr. Speaker, on page 3 of the Fall budget, the real budget, not the mini budget but the real budget. It is called the Fall budget.

If we look at page 3 of that, the minister goes through some explanations, last paragraph but one, he says; "The 1975 budget provided npproximately $45 million to allow .. increases, etc., $45 million. If you check the figures for the preceding financial year, you will find that $250 million was paid out, $250 million paid out in salaries., $250 million 476

December 1, 1975. MR. SIMMONS: Tape 190 RH - 1 plu s $45 million would ~ive you $295 million and that figure, Mr. Speaker, $295 million- if you add up all the subheads that are appropriate to this item- $295 million was the amount that the government initially budgeted in the mini budget of last Spring, in the March hudget, $295 million. Now if you come to the top of the next page, page four, the minister says that the settlements were another $20 million in excess of what was planned in the original budget, $20 million in excess.

You add your $20 million to your $295 million, you will come up with $315 million, not $345 million. Or to go about it another way lest somebody think I am playing with figures, the minister on top of page four admits that the overrun was $65 million, $65 million, not the overrun but the cost difference with the preceding year was $65 million. But once again if you take your $65 and you add it to $250 million, the budget figure for the preceding year, you could only get $315 million. You cannot get $345 million. Now we are down somewhere $30 million on salaries that the minister has not accounted for. Why?

The figures I have gone over every way I can. I have had others go over it. The figures do not explain themselves, Mr. Speaker. I would hope when the minister closes the debate he will address himself to this one because there is $30 million missing there ,or if not missing--let us put it another way. Either we are missing $30 million or the minister is not telling the whole truth about how much they overran on salary settlements. Because the truth of the matter is, if you take the $250 million of the preceding year - MR. SPEAKER MR. WELLS: Order, please: On a point of order, Hr. Speaker.

To say that the minister is mistaken, Mr. Speaker, is one thing . But again to come back to this same question - and I am sorry, I do not want to beat it to death - but to say that the minister is not telling the whole truth you come right back to an imputation of dishonesty. It is quite a different thing. MR. SIMMONS: Okay, Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. To the point of order,Mr. Speaker. That was not my intention and I withdraw that. I - 477

Decemher 1, 1975. Tape 190 RH - 2 AN RON. MEMBER: You cannot keep withdrawin~. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, of course I can keep withdrawing if I say things that are unparliamentary and I intend to do that. MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please~ Order, please~ Order, please! As I understand it the hon. gentleman has withdrawn the remark to which the Minister without Portfolio took exception and it has been withdrawn and the hon. gentleman MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, may I - MR. SIMMONS: There is no point of order! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think the hon. minister is up on a point of order, I believe. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, my point of order is simply this. There must be a limit in this House of Assembly or in any organized gathering where a limit is reached where a memher can hurl insults or imputations or allegations or innuendoes across the House at another hon. member and as soon as he is brought to order by Your Honour withdraws and then goes merrily on to another and says the same thing.

I do not pretend to be that familiar with the House rules, Sir, but I do know that I came into this Ho~se and into public life with a decent, honourable reputation and I have every intention, Sir, with your protection,of leaving public life the same way. I ask for the protection of this House. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. There is nothing in the Standin~ Orders nor Beauchesne that suggests that a member cannot say that something is untrue or something is false.

Any reference whatsoever to something being said which is untrue or there is a falsehood is in section (155) of Beauchesne, subsection (3) which simply says that charp,es of uttering a falsehoos, that is unparliamentary. And my colleague, Sir, has never said in the speech up to this point that I have heard that the minister has said something deliberately that is untrue or deliberately said something that was untrue or deliberately uttered a falsehood. So I submit, Sir, that my colleague is totally 478

December 1, 1975. Tape 190 RH - 3 in order in suggesting that a minister said 1or if he indeed said that, if the minister said that something was untrue it is quite parliamentary as long as he does not say that it is deliberate, that the minister deliberately uttered a falsehood or something that was untrue. And that is the operative word in this whole

section here, deliberate. And if the minister - MR. NEARY: team the rules, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROWE: I do not need any help from the member from LaPoile Mr. Spea:ker. I submit my colleague is in order and the 'Point of order raised by the minister is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPF..AJ<rn: Order, please! It is very hypothetical whether in fact there is a point of order before the Chair. Ar. exception was taken to a remark made by the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. 479

December 1, 1975 Tape 191 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: - ·· ·- --- He then retracted that remark. He has withdrawn it. The matter is therefore disposed of. I am not aware of any other point of order before the Chair. The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. Mr. Speaker, before continuing I would like to rise on a point of order myself. The Minister of Finance was just down there addressing himself to what he called a point of order. He inferred that I was using innuendo · ~o get at him and other members on his side of the House. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not think he is allowed to assign these motives to me.

He is assigning false motives which I do not intend, and I submit, Mr. Speaker - MR. DOODY: ----- I will withdraw it, Mr. Spekker - MR. SIMMONS: - that he be asked to withdraw that comment. ------- MR._DOODY: I will withdraw it, Mr. Speaker. MR. WELLS: - - --- Mr. Speaker, we are now playing with words. This is an entirely spurious point of order which is not a point of order at all.

In other words what the hon. member is saying that a man on this side of the House cannot get up and attempt to make a point of order when it is something that is being said which directly involves his reputation without himself infringing the right of another member, and this is patently nonsense, Your Honour. HON_.,_ _"!_E~ERS: Oh, oh! MR.~~ If there is any point, you know, I will withdraw it if I have said anything that is unparliamentary. I would much rather get on with the business of the House. Hear, hear! Order, please!

Therefore there is no need for any further ruling, the hon. ~entleman has withdrawn anything that would be required of him to withdraw. The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR._S~~NS: Mr. Speaker, thank you. I think we have demonstrated and it can go on from both sides ~can it not? , in ease the minister is interested, how long things can go on. I was making the point in reference to pages three and four of the present budget for the year, the Fall budget, the real budget 1 that somewhere $30 million is not accounted for in the figures. If you add 480

December 1, 1975 Tape 191 PK- 2 MR. SIMMONS: --·--- them all up, the second last paragraph on page three and the first two or three lines on page four, there is not a complete accounting of it, Mr. Speaker. Either there is $30 million not accounted for or else the minister is not telling us that the differential, the difference between the 1974-1975 figure, and the newly projected 1975-1976 figure is not $65 million as he says on top of page four, but $95 million. Mr.

Speaker, what I meant to say just now is that that is obviously not the full truth, there is something there that we are not seeing, there is something there that should be in. There should be an extra sentence or two explaining that ~ where the other $30 million is, It is a fair amount of money, almost three times the government's projected deficit. Where is the $30 million? It is not accounted for in any shape or form in the budget document that I can find. MR .• DQQ!?_~ That is the difference! Oh, oh! MR._ ,!IMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I admit that I operate within my own limitations.

I admit that. ~ · noo~ It is obvious to the world. MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the members on the opposite side may not find this very serious, Mr. Speaker. They may not find nothing serious at all about the fact that we have $11 million deficit. It might be a big joke to the Premier and the Minister of Transportation and the rest of them . To me I would like to' know where we are going to get the $11 million, and I would like to know why we do not know any more than we do about that $30 million on salary account • That is what I am asking.

If that is funny, laugh at it fellows, laugh at it all you want. If that is their best comprehension, Mr. Speaker, of the financial mess we find ourselves in, let them laugh all they want. I cannot find anything to laugh about • .!:!_R_. __ sng-IDNS: I am askin!!: some serious questions. MR. _~p DY: Get back to it.I will tell you all about it when we get into it. 481

December 1, 1975 Tape 191 PK- 3 SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. g_MMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. DOODY: You had a bad weekend did you? MR. SIMMONS: The minister has all bad weekends. Mr. Speaker, do ------ I have to listen to that muttering from the so-called member for Bonavista South? MR. WHITE: Take it easy. MR. SIMMONS: Do I have to listen to that all of the time or do I ---- - have the protection of the Chair that I have the right to be heard in silence without these useless, childish babblings from the other side of the House? MR. SPEAKER: -------- Order, please!

Several days ago I pointed out~ and I !laid specifically at the time and that was during the speech of the hon. Member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) where there was quite a bit of give and take, I pointed out that every bon. member has the right to be heard without interruption. I went further and stated that it may be apparent to me that an hon. member is yielding that right and is inviting participation or questions or brief comments or give and take. There is no question of his right to speak without interruption but such a member may voluntarily not wish to exercise that right and invite or encourage participation.

The reason I pointed it out at the time is so that there would be no precedent contrarv to the rule that any hon. member has the right to be heard without interruption. 482

necemher 1, 1975 HR. SPEAKER: T~pe 192 The case tod~y :Is ~uite rlifferent from the former day, and the hon. ~entleman h"s made it quite clear tha.t he does in fact wish to spel'!k without :lnterT"Uption. Having ma<le that quite clear, then obv:lou~lv hon. gentlemen do not have the ri~ht to interrupt him. The hon. the Premier. ~. ~!001lES: ~lr. Spe11ker, a point of order. r.ould you give us a IB-1 ruJin~ on what happens when the hon. member as he does so frequently starts to speak to him~elf? 1-'R. F. POWE: I submit, ~1r. Sreaker, that that is not a point of order an<l :It needs no ruling. ~m.

SPEAKEP: The bon. member for Hurgeo-Bay d'Espoir (~r. Simmons). MP. S!}~ONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I never cease to be amaze<l with the profoundness of the Premier'~ comments. Mr. Speaker, if I mentioned -up she comes. I hate to disl'lppoint the Premier waiting there is such anticipation, Mr. Speaker. All I have are some other items of information which I helieve the }'ini ster of Finance may be well abJ e to tell him anyway.

He indicates that he knows where the discrepancy :Is on the salary figures. l,ftlat 1 want to know is if he knew abc-ut the discrep;mcy, why clid he not tell us about it in the budget? 1f he Knew where that $30 million w;1s, why did he not mention it? 1-'hile we are on that subject, Mr. Speaker, let us talk about Sl'lles tax which he mentions on page 6 of his budget document, the !lurlget Speech. Now, I cannot, ,.r..

Speaker , for the life of me,nor can others that T have discussed this with, see how the minister can muster such optimism with respect to projected figures on retail sales tl'lx. 1 P,l'lther frnm doing 1'1 hit of fipuring that the Spring hudget. the mini hudJ!:Pt of "l'lrch,wFts predicated so far as sales tax 1s concerned on a ~rowth of ahout 14.5 per cent increase in tax yield of about 14.5 rer cent. Since then, of course, we have h~~ some indications that the ret~il sale~ is not up to the extent that :It was anticipated in the Sprin~.

Indeeo the government flash sheet prepared by the government's ""'" people tno1 cates that as of the end of Aup.ust- or . I am sorry the encl of J1m~, the retaiJ trade had only grown hy 11.6 per cent. If you 483

neremher 1, 1975 Il\-2 check !lubse<Juent fi p:ures - J hAve one here also for the period encHnJ!: Aupust. The retail trade ha11 ~rown by 11.7 per cent for the first P1.ght months of the vear, the cal en dar year that is.

In view of the r.rowth, 11.6 per cent, 11.7 per cent, substantially less than that '~h 1 ch is Ant idpated in the Spring budget, I wonder how it is the minister can prn1ect a 27 per cent increase in tax yield, this 27 per C'Pnt without anv reference to the extra two points he adds to the tax. lie projects on pap,e 6 0 to take the figures separate which T shall not the moment, he prniects an increase in tax yield from a previous fiscal year to the present one of 27 per cent. Now, Mr.

Spe11ker, that just is not possible because where you are dealing wfth a straight percPntage across the board, in this case 8 per cent before the t\~o is added, 1 f your retail trade grows by 8 per cent you can expect vour tax yield to grow by about 8 per cent. You cannot expPct your tax yield to be up 27 per cent if your retail trade, accort1ing tC1 government figures, is only up hy .1ust over 11 per cent. There, Mr. Speaker, I submit is another blatant discrepancy that needs explanation.

It not only needs explantion, ~lr, Speaker, but there is an implication there, the implication being that if these fip,ures are inflated figures, are not the real figures, if the Fall budret is projecting dollars that will not come into the treasury, then it means, it can only mean that there is a short fall. There is some more money even over and above the $11 million that the minister admits to in his deficit figure. There is even more money that we cannot expect to come into the treasury, so that ,,,e can expect the deficit will bP even beyond, hiJ!:her than the $11 million. Mr.

Speaker, so far in giving examples I have mentioned the equalization grants of last Spring and the discrepancy that there has been there. T have mentioned the s11.lary figures on page 3 of the document, and I have mentioned the sales tax. There are other examples as well if we were to go through the budget. 484

December l, 1975 ~· ... s. i.~ Tape no. 193 Page 1 - mw Pa~e ten of the budget, the second paragraph, makes reference to the borrowing requirements. I meant to have a copy of last year's budget with me but in any event if you were to check it, you would find that the borrowing requirements indicated in the March budget were $203 million and so many hundred thousand, I believe $203,400,000 or something of that - is that the actual figure,$203,400,000?

Members will recall that when the then Minister of Finance brou~ht into the House a resolution relating to the borrowin~ requirements that he went for an amount that was substantially in excess of $203 million, and we on this side objected to that fact, because the budget indicated that the borrowtng requirement would be $203,400,000, no more and no less. And that is what we are prepared to support. Now then the minister on last Monday says, the total borrowing re~uirements in 1975-1976 will be reduced by $21 million from a pro ,1ected $243 million to $222 million. Mr.

Speaker, there is nothing incorrect, there is nothing inaccurate, there is nothing untrue in that statement. But once again, Mr. Speaker, it falls short of ~iving the whole truth, It comes so.ewhere short of telling the real picture as it is, and only a careful reading will make the reader realize that the word 'pro1ected' refers to the government's projections since the bud~et was brought down last Spring, the projections which spelled gloom and doom, in which they were going to have a great deficit of $30 million or $40 million or whatever.

That is the projection the minister is obviously talking about when he says, a pro1ected $243 million would have been required, the borrowing requirement, That is what he is talking about. What he does not bother to point out, Mr. Speaker, to his listeners or to the people of this Province, is that the initial borrowing requirement and that which was approved last Spring, is not $243 at all but $203 million. And instead of bra~ging that our borrowing requirements are down - MR. DOODY: They are down from what they would have been. MR. SIMMONS: Oh, yes. Mr. Speaker! Oh, yes, Mr. Speaker! 485

December 1, 1975 Ta-pe no. 193 Pap;e 1 - mw ..... ··'" '··h;n . hev "·ould have been. I am going to buv a Cadillac f or $10,00 0, and then I changed my mind and decided to buy a Volkswa ~ en for $3,000, so I save myself $7,000.- ~. DOODY: That is exactly what we are dealing with. MR. SIMMONS: $7,000 I never had to save, Mr. Speaker. That is the kind of reasonin~ we got in this statement right here. Why did not the minister say it as it is and say, Mr.

Sneaker, point out, that this budget, the mini budget of last Spring says that the borrowing requirement, the approved borrowing reouirement, approved by this House, was not $243 million but $203 million and that the total borrowing requirement now is not reduced by $21 million but it is up bv $19 million, up from the approved borrowing requirement of last Spring. That is the true picture, Mr. Speaker. MR. DOODY: If the bon. member wants to use the index it is in there. Look: MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I have already conceded, I have already said that I find nothing inaccurate in this statement, and there is other documentation elsewhere in the budget as the minister .1ust pointed out which supports the truth of the statement he put here. I am not disouting that at all, Mr. Speaker. I am saying that to put the following statement in is to leave the impression that somehow we are better off and the statement is this, Mr. Speaker: The total borrowing requirements will be reduced. It is true to say that they are reduced from what they would have been had the government continued on its spending spree.

That is true. I have no argument with that, Mr. Sneaker. But the implication there is that somehow we are better off. We are not better off, Mr. Speaker. We are $19 million worse off , Sl9 million worse . And that is not by implication at all, Mr. Speaker. That is the fact of the matter. Last Spring a $203 million borrowing requirement was approved and here we hear the minister saying the borrowing requirement has been reduced. 486

December 1, 1975 Tape No. 194 NM- 1 MR. SIMMONS: Reduced from what they wo¥ld have been :! concede. But let the word also go out that they have been increased from what was approved originally from $203 million to $222 million, They have been increased, not reduced by $19 million. And, Mr.

Speaker, if the government is all caught up in this ~reat urge suddenly to level with the oeople,let them go all the way, and let them tell the people of this Province the real position, the realdebt position in which we find ourselves, a debt position that is worsening by the day, a position that has gone from $700 million when this government took office to $1,800,000,000 as a result of this Fall budget. If they are going to level, Mr. Speaker, let them really come clean and let them point out all the implications of what we are now gettin1 ourselves into with this Fall budget. This brings me, Mr.

Speaker, to another discrepancy which I feel occurs in the budget; the whole matter of what the real deficit of the Province will be as of March 31, 1976, what will the real deficit be? Will it be $11 million as the minister says it will be? MR. DOODY: You cannot predict it down to the last cent. MR. SIMMONS: M.r. Speaker, I can appreciate that the minister cannot be a prophet, that he cannot know exactly for sure how this is going to turn out, that there are other circumstances that may intervene. I am not talking about that kind of thing. I recognize that what we have before us are estimates.

I hope for the sake of the Province they are high estimates, they are accurate on the one side but at the same timethat if anything they are over-inflated as far as expenditures are concerned, that we will not get ourselves into a worse debt position than is projected. That is my point, Mr. Speaker. I am wondering, and with some good reason, I am wondering whether the $11 million is a fairly accurate guesstimate of what the deficit will be.

I have iadicated already that I feel strongly, based on some information I have been looking at, that the sales tax yield is somewhat inflated in the budget and I am somewhat concerned that the government can find it possible to expect the tax yield that is mentioned in this Fall budget. 487

December 1, 1975 Tape No. 194 NM- 2 So far as I can understand from talking to some people on the subject, there may well be a considerable short fall there, that the tax yield may not be nearly as large, not nearly as large by millions of dollars, by that I mean a couple or $ 3 million, not nearly as large as is projected in the Fall budget. Hr. Speaker, I believe the true deficit,when we have the hindsight to look at it.is go1ng to be well beyond $11 million. I believe that figure is out by several million dollars. Is it not the real truth, ~r.

Speaker, that the government has decided to let us down a bit gently, tell us half the bad news now and the other half in the budget next Spring? Is that the truth of the matter? MR. ROUSSEAU: Half the good news now and half the good news then. MR. SIMMONS: There is no good news, Mr. Speaker, in this budget. Do not let the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture be fooled on that one. His colleagues might have convinced him that this was good news but this is very bad news, no matter where you live in this Province, nothing only bad news.

Do not tell me that there is anybody jumping in the streets over an extra two per cent sales tax. Do not tell me that they are jumping in the streets because they are going to have to pay a couple of extra points on their income tax next year, Mr. Speaker. This is all bad news from the word go and I hope the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture has not been fooled on that point. There is no good news in this budget, a lot of bad news. Part of the bad news is that we are going to have a deficit this year on current account of $11 million. Mr.

Speaker, that is shocking, that is unforgiveable- $11 million in one year - and unprecedented as well. But, Mr. Speaker, what is even more shocking is that there is a very good chance that this may not be the real deficit at all, that we have not been told the whole story here, that the figures as we have them before us now do not reflect the real deficit that we are going to find ourselves in when the next budget is hrought down in respect of the 1976-77 fiscal year. Mr. Speaker, last Spring 488

nPr.pmher 1, 1975 MR. SIMMONS: Tape 195 1 made a statement as to what I felt the real position was on equalization. Time has proven me to he correct ~n that one. J IB-1 now predict that- and J do this re~retfully because 1 wish I could predict otherwise. I wish J could predict that the defid t ~ras not $11 million but $2 mi.llion or $3 million or none. But, re~retfully, T predict that the budget deficit this year on current account is going tn be considerably in excess of $11 million, I would go so far as to s:~.v in excess of $20 million at the end of this fiscal year. As T sav, T regret having to do that.

Tt is sad to have to dn it. But I bel:feve, Mr. Speaker, I believe that it is time to start telling the truth here about these matters and my information is that the true pro.1ected defic:ft is not being reflected :In the hud~et figures we have had presented to us last Monday. I mentioned last week and Friday in talking about this, I wondered out loud about the necessity for two budgets. nid we need two budgets rea]lv? If so, for what reasons? Where they for the reasons that the minister had ~iven? I covered that ground. nr was it because of a decision taken last ~pring to have two budRets in the same year? ~r.

Speaker, I would like to know the answer to that one, and I am hoping that the minister in replying . or somebody in replying for the ~overnment side,will indicate to us - if they will, perhaps they will not- Mr. Speaker, the member for Ronav:lsta South (~r. Hor~an) kee!ls mutterinp; about what a great financial wizard I am. I am no financial wizard. He knows that, ~r. Speaker. Tt :Is one of the things he does know. You see, on this one perhaps I am way out in left field. l"P-. MORGAN: t-Il'. STf.'MONS: no not fool your~elf. Oh, Yr. Speaker. Now, there is a man who could recognize a fool when hE' saw one, ~'r.

Speaker. There is a man - MT> , F. ROWF. : ~!!. STWONS: He ~ees nne every morning. ThPre is a man, ~lr. Speaker, ~~ho should not use mirrors as often a~ he doe~. vr. ~peakPr, I wiJl explain that to the min1~ter after. 1-'r. Speaker, ff I am out in left field on this business 489

necemher 1, 1975 Tape 195 IB-2 ~nd if I ~m no financial wizard - as I am not - I am just another ordinary Newfoundlander who would like to know what is going on in term~ of the financial mess in which we find our~~lves. I would like to have some answer~. lf it is a sin to stand here and a~k oue~tions, welJ T 1tm a sinn~r. I am ~oi.ng to ask sonte more questions yet. 1\ut if I am out in left field on this and if I do not know what I am t>\lkin!! ~bout,. I h>\ve p:ot some good company.

I have got some comrany, some people who are asking the same questions and who are making the same kinds of statements T am making, and I refer you iust for example to The ___ Evening Te] ~gram editorial of last Tue~day. They called the editorial, the mini hudget. I differ with them on that. 1 think the mint hud~et was la~t Spr.inp. and T think the real budget is the one we have p.ot now, but that is another issue. But I agree with them on some points too, and I quote from that editorial of Novemher 25, last Tuesday.

"The 2 per cent increas~ in the provincial rate of income tax and the jump in the sales tl\X from 8 per cent to 10 per cent on the dollar could just ~s e11sily h>\ve been included in the 'lltrch 12th budget which saw the provincia] government pass the ~1 billion m~rk, etc. But, of course, that w~s not the time - and I ~m quoting - for 1975 was eJection Then another quote from the ~ame editorial. 1'The worst feature of ye~terday' s( 1 ast Mondav'

s) attempt to put a finger in the dike "'~"' that it underlined the basic deceit of the f!:Overnntent in earlier representing the provincial picture as being rosy and stable. 11 J 'P. . lilr.J<~!AN : ~~r. Speaker, on a point of order. The hon. r.:entleman has been ruled out of order so often this afternoon that 1 have lost count- The point of order simp.ly is this, that the hon. gentleman t'annot quote from :m editorial usinf!: language that is unparliamentary Any more than he c11n use unparJ iamentary ] anguape himself.

And the use of the word 'deceit' is so unparliamentary that it does not even need to be checkP.d in HansArd. 1-!R. f. RO~!F.: To that point of orrler, }ir. ~peakf'r. The hon. member is not usinp the "-'Ord 'deceit', he is simply quoting the editorial in The Evening Tel err am and ;my reference to the use of newspapers 490

nPremher 1. 1975 Tape 195 IB-3 i~ in ~tan~inJ! Orrler 31 (

d) which simply s;1y~, 1 \flral ouestions must not hP prefaced bv the read1nr, c>f letters." So, the hon. member, my colleague iR l'!ble to use and ouote ne"·spapers in any c1ebRte or Rnv motion before the HnuRe Rn~ it is not R point of order, ~r. Speaker. 491

December 1, 1975 Tape 196 PK- 1 ~- _S~FAKER (COLLINS) I am also reading from Beauchesne, 157.

section 3 • "It is out of order to read extracts in a debate if they contain unparliamentary expressions,as no language can be heard in quotation if it would be disorderly if spoken:' The extract that was read did mention the words "deceit" and as the Speaker previously ruled this afternoon on that the point of deceit cannot he made, and is unparliamentary. The member is out of order, and I would ask him to refrain from using the same expression a~ quoted from that page. MR. SIMMONS: Well, Mr. Speaker, certainly I am learning as I go and I withdraw without qualification any imputation that waa there.

I shall have, Mr. Speaker, and I have withdrawn without qualification ~ I shall have to find some places where these quotations are parliamentary because I indeed want to read them to some people, The public should know these thin~s and I will read them outside of the House. Mr. Speaker, I will try another quotation which I believe, Mr. Speaker, is parliamentary and, if not, I would invite Mr. Speaker's ~uidance on the matter. I know, Mr. Speaker, the members opposite do not particularly want to hear this stuff. I know it is embarrassing to them, the truth often is, Mr. Speaker.

I am quoting now from another excerpt in The Evening Telegram the same date, a column by Mr. Wick Collins. In

part in discussing the budget, Mr. Speaker, the coluanist mentions, "I ~ather from Mr. Doody's budget that the government just discovered that there is such a thing as inflation. Well if the government only learned that now it must be the most stupid government in Canada and should not be allowed to run the affairs of the Province. If the ~overnment knew about inflation all along", and the rest I believe is ~oin~ to be unparliamentary. He talks about concealment, and I cannot use concealment. So I will withdraw it before I use it. But it went on to say, Mr.

Speaker, that if the government knew about it, but did not hring it to the attention of the public until now, and I am paraphrasing then it is guilty of something deliberate - _MR. ~ -~. _S_lMMONS : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. and should not be elected." 492

December 1, 1975 Ta,e 196 PK - 2 MR. WELLS: - 4- ·--- The hon. member is deliberately trying to do what he has been cautioned by the Chair from doing all afternoon. He is under the guise now again of quoting and par,hasing and playing with words trying to say that there has been a dishonourable conduct or deceit. That is what - MR._ ~I~NS: Is concealment unparliamentary? _MR~--~~LS: Concealment really comes dawn to that, Mr. Speaker. MR. __ SIMMONS: Is concealment unparliamentary? MR.._F_. __ ROWE: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~._F_,_ROWE: Some say the "'ord concealment is unparliamentary, and I cannot see any quotations to suggest that the word concealment is unparliamentary, therefore my colleague is simply not out of order on this particular question. MR. S~E~KER: (Dr. Collins): Order, please . AN HON. MEMBER: ----··---- Mr. Speaker. MR. __ S!_E~ER_ (Dr.

Collins): Order, please: I would like to read another extract from Bea~chesne, 157, subsection 6 as follows:- "On the 17th !larch, 1933, a member auoting a newspaper in debate was ruled out of order by the Deputy Speaker who said ': "The rule is quite clear, that the quotin~ of a newspaper, an author or a book which reflects upon debate before the House, either directly or indirectly, is entirely out of order, because members are here to give their own opinion and not to quote the opinion of others •••• Members may quote an

article ot a book stating facts, but a commentary on any proceeding or any discussion in the House, with the object of swinging an ooinion from one side or the other, is out of order." And the ruling is that the quotation, the extracts from the newspaper or from the column given is a statement of opinion and not a statement of fact. So I would ask that the hon. member withdraw the reading and to desist from the reading of that particular extract. RON. MEMBF.RS: ----- - - · --- Hear, hear! 493

D~~emher 1, 1975. Tape 197 RFI - 1 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, ~ertainly I withdraw whatever it is I am supposed to withdraw. I withdraw without qualification reading papers and let me say without quoting anything at all that I find it equally as puzzling as others.who have written on the suh1ect, to find that a government could have been this stupid, Mr. Speaker, about this matter. And I know many of the men who make up the Cabinet and I doubt whether it is a matter of stupidity at all. I do not think, Mr.

Speaker, that the kinds of discrepancies I have talked about here today are a matter of stupidity and I believe the House is owed some answers ahout the matters T have raised insofar as discrepancies of figures are concerned. Mr. Speaker, the more l think about this and the fact of 'a second bud~et in the same fiscal year, the more I reflect on the statement which the Prime Minister, Mr.

Trudeau,made, I believe, on the thirteenth of O~tober, Monday, the thirteenth, about anti-inflation measures and so on, the more I reflect on the fact that a couple of days later the Premier of this Province went on television and addressed himself ostensihly to the same subject the Prime Minister h<td ,.and, as I say the more I realize the fact of a second budget in this Hscal year following as it does the two statements I have _1ust mentioned, the Prime Minister's statement of the thirteenth of October and the Premier's of the fifteenth, the more I realize that set of events, that sequence of events.the more do I have to ask the question, did not the Prime Minister on the thirteenth of October conveniently take the Premier off the hook, very conveniently take the Premier and his administration off the hook and give him a tailor-made excuse for doing something which he proposed doing anyway?

PRK~IER MOORES: The whole of Canada, too. ~IR. SUIMONS: Ah! Mr. Speaker, the Premier talks about the whole of Canada and he tells us about how it is all without his control- I would buy that line, Mr. Speaker, I would buy it if he could in the same mouthful or subsequent ones justify unemployment in the same context. 494

December 1, 1975. Tape 197 RH - 2 MR. SIMMONS: He keeps tellin~ us unemployment is world~ide and Canada-wide. And I say to him tha.t when we get our employment down, not only to the national average even, but down to where the next Province is, I will be fairly happy. It is easy, Mr. Speaker, to scapegoat. It is easy to throw up your hands and say ,we cannot do anything about it. Of course, ~fr. Speaker, we live in an international environment.

We live in a situation where many of the financial circumstances are beyond our control and the economic ·circumstances are beyond our control and we must recognize that is a fact of life. But the sneaky, cowardly, dastardly way out, Mr. Speaker, is to say that we can do nothing, that it is all Ottawa's fault, it is all t.he fault of the international economy, it is all somebody else's fault. There is a v<~ry. real sense, Mr. Speaker, and I am aware of it, a very real sense that we are more the victims of infla .tion that the creators of it. At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, when I hear a Premier whose only con­ tribution to solving the unemployment situation is to say we did not cause 'it, that it is here like it is all over Canada and all over the State .s, when I hear that kind of cop-out, ~fr. Speaker, I get very disappointed in the Premier because I think it would be more to the point if he would address himself to what can be done in this Province. And I am sick and tired as a Newfoundlander of being told that We cannot do anything about 20 per cent unemployment.

If it were 8 per cent like the national average or 10 or 12 per cent like some other provinces T could buy his argument. But this business of convincing the peo-ple of Newfoundland that we are forever going to be stuck with 20 per cent unem-ployment is irresponsible and is unbecoming 495

December 1, 1975 Taoe no. 198 Page 1 - mw of a government minister let alone the Premier to educate the people into thinking that they are stuck with massive unemployment forever. This, Mr. Speaker, is the same Premier and the same administration which in October of 1971 promised not 10 per cent unemployment, not to reduce it to 10 per cent or 7 per cent or 6 per cent or 5 per cent,but full employment. Now when I first heard that I thought it was a bit unrealistic, and I would not hold it against that gentleman today if he only had it down to 4 per cent or 5 per cent or 10 per cent.

But that individual who talked three and one-half years ago about full employment says, "Do not mind her, boys, she is only 20 per cent. There are only 40,000 Newfoundlanders walking around with no 1obs. That is not bad. Blame it on the Canadians. Blame it on the federalists. Blame it on the fellows up in Ottawa. It is all all right." I say, Mr. Speaker, it is far from all right. It is far from all right. Mr. Speaker, my resolution, my amendment, of a day or so ago on Friday mentioned to the House that we regret the failure of the government fo disclose fully the financial situation of the Province.

Had the government done that either in this budget, this Fall or last Spring, my motion, of course, my amendment,would not at all be necessary. A supplementary budget would not at all be necessary if the government had levelled last Spring. He said, Mr. Speaker, they chose to present a rosy picture. Look at Mr. Earle's budget of last Spring, page 21, I believe. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this budget was brought down on March 12, and any student of the Canadian or the international economic situation will tell you that was happened since March to the economy, to inflation, is really only a matter of degree, that anybody who is at all watching the economic situation would have been quite aware that this was an ongoing thing, which was in process for at least two or three years. So what has happened since March is mainly a matter of degree only, not a startling new development. And the minister, Mr. Speaker, ought to have been aware- 496

December 1, 1975 Tape no. 198 Page 2 - mw th~t is the previous minister I speak of now - ou~ht to have been aware of that information, that trend, in terms of inflation and unemployment and so on, and yet he tells us, Mr. Speaker, or he told us on March 12, and I QUote from his speech, page 21, in concluding he says: "I have taken an optimistic approach tempered with realistic financial caution in preparing this budget," - realistic financial caution in preparing this bud~et, realistic financial caution. Mr.

Speaker, I can only assume that the minister, and his aides who helped him prepare this, presumably, were aware of the international and the federal situation, the national situation, when they used the expression, realistic, financial caution. As I listened to him last Spring, 1 could only presume that he was alluding to the prevailing situation, the economy, the unemployment, the inflation, And you must take him at his word when he says that we ~ave tempered this with realistic, financial caution.

Then he ~oes on to say: "Should our forecast prove to be accurate, and at this time 1ve have no reason to anticipate otherwise, Newfoundland faces another year of contined expansion in all areas of the economy." watched the Minister of Finance on television yesterday, as 1 mentioned, and I heard him say that he was aware for some months about the present financial situation. He did in the television item, think, mention he was aware in June or July. He was aware in June or July, Mr.

Speaker, which means that all the more do we on this side of the House and all members of this House and all people in this Province, all the more do we deserve some answers as to whv the government, back in August, continued to annouce fairly expensive programmes,such as the Recreation Action Programme billed at, I believe, $2.3 million, continued to announce all kinds of water and sewer projects, continued to call tenders or road paving and upgrading. Mr. Speaker, did thev do that not intending to go through with it? Is that we can assume from it? 497

necember 1, 1975, Tape 199, Page 1 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: Is it a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing? That the men down in the deparment, the civil servants were dishing out these tenders - when I say dishing out, I mean to the newspapers,tender invitations- were they doing this kind of thing without the knowledge of the Minister of Finance and the other ministers? Is that what was happening? Or why, Mr.

Speaker, in the interest of efficient and responsible government, why did not the information that the Minister of Finance had that we were in serious financial straits, why did not that information get reflected in government policy? Why only now, Mr. Speaker~ Did it have anything to do with the election of September 16? Is that the reason? Or was it only the Minister of Finance who had this particular information? Where was the Minister of Justice, ~r. Speaker, when all of this was going on, the very conscience of the Cabinet,when this thing was being done?

The government House Leader, or was he not -he was not on the inside then. No, that was later. Some say he is not on the inside now he is the workhorse of the government. But whatever, he was not on the inside at that particular time. The member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) is not here. Of course he is not in Cabinet. But this financial situation 1 was not the government caucus acquainted with it or did they hear it when we did on last Monday for the first time? Knowing the members for St.

John's East, who as I say is absent, knowing him as I do,and his performance in this House, I could not see him stand by idly. And perhaps that is the reason he has been calling for the financial enquiry as he has been in the papers in recent weeks. Now, Mr. Sneaker, as it happens, because we did not have all the information before, a supplementary budget is necessary. Was necessarv and is necessary, necessary to undo whatever was done last Spring, undo the misinformation which we received last Spring, to put the brakes on government spending.

A supplementary budget was necessary to begin the long painful process of cleaning up the financial mess in which we find ourselves. I submit, Mr. Speaker, in that respect that the financial situation reflected in the budget of last week is really only the tip of the iceberg. There is a lot more we have not heard yet. Perhaps we will 498

December l, 1975. Tape 199, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIJI!MONS: get to hear it when the budget is brought down in the Spring. But I do hope for the sake of all of us and for the sake of the future of this Province that we very soon get to hear a balanced and complete story of the financial situation of this Province and of the government. Mr. Speaker, this supplementary budget is necessary because the Tories got us into a mess.

We have been told, and I have heard it both before I came into this House and after, that they were busy cleaning up the mess that the former Premier was supposed to have perpetrated on this Province. That is what we were told. We were in doctrinated int;o believing that somehow she was some great big mess when these boys took over, Mr. Speaker, and that somehow they were working night and day, coats off, sleeves up, knuckled rill(ht down to it, cleaning up the mess. And now, Mr. Speaker, surprise of surprise, we find thev were not doing that at all. Now we find that they were over­ spending.

Now we are told that they were out spending money like it was going out of stvle and they were not going about cleaning up the house at all. Mr. Speaker, first of all I submit that the great big financial mess we heard about was not there. But it is there now. I submit, Mr. Speaker- and I wa11 not a part of the last administration at all, I have no particular vested interest in defending it-but Mr. Speaker, truth is truth and my logic tells me that $1800 million debt - pUblic debt,$1800 million - is a lot worse than $700 million which is the mess these people found.

The Minister of Mines and Energy was going on long and hard about ho.w shocked he was about how far in debt we were. I would like to hear him today if he were here. How shocked would he be now 499

T'eremhE'r I, 1975 T11pe 200 IB-1 th:'lt we 11re tHic-e M< murh in cleht and then some. He are not $700 mtllion nnv more. He are $l,!lOO,OOO,OOO. $1,600,000,000 nlus S200 mflli(ln. "P. S!-'ALLWOOD: Next year. ~IMMONS:_ Yes, r1Rht. $1,600,000,000 at the moment tn this fiscal ve11r and then another $200 million being projected in the next year, $l,ROO,OOO,OOO. Now, 1-'r. Spe11ker, the financial mess that this Province must know about is the one that has been created in the past three and a half vears hy this present aclministrat:lon. If you want to talk about financial messes, ~r.

Speaker, these people have been the experts. They have rail<'~ on and on about ~~at a shocking mess she was in, Now they have rh.~nge<i their tune. T.11st wf>ek the Minister of Inclustr:lal nevelopment "'>>:s Cln a television pr"pramme, last Sunclay, a.nd he saicl something to the effect - and if I ouote h:lm incorrectly, he could certainlv help me out on this one - something to the effect that perhaps they have> concentr;otecl ton muc-h on prCivicl:l.ng services. So they h"ve not been clofng, Mr. Speaker, what they tolcl us 11t ,.1]. They "'ere not deeming np house. They were not cleaning up the mess.

They were out there spencl:lng it like,someone else sl!vs, clrunken sailors. They were out there spending it like it was going out of style. Let the word go out, Mr. Speaker, the Tory r."vernrnent has got us into a financial mess, a f:lnanciRl mess unprecedented s:l ne-e the cl11rk financ:l Rl clays of 1931 And 1932 '"hen ,,,e had hand to mouth government, when every day the leader of the government sat in fear that a bank mRnager woulcl show up trv:lng to foreclose on something. Ts that where ~re are heacled for, hand to mouth government again?

Are we heAcle~ for a situation that I believe the Minister of Finance allucled to in 11 public statement last week when he talked about the honrl market!<? Perhaps he could elahorate on that, ~r. Speaker, He t~Jke~ about our rreclit rating. Bnt T hacl a f<'elinp:, Hr. Speaker - it ~·as on 1 y a feeling - T lu\cl a feeling that perhaps this budget, one of the main reasons fnr it in the ~overnment's eyes is to keep our creditors happy. HR. noonY: Naturally you keep the financial community informed. 500

0Pccmher 1, 1975 Tape 200 IB-2 "ll. ST~'}fONS: ~'r. SpeakPr, the minister conflrms H. }'". OOODY: What is wron~ with it? I-'ll. SUo/ONS: Nothin~ at all wron~ with it, ~r. Speaker. Nothiny, at all wrong with keepin~ our creditors happy, Mr. Speaker, as lonr as WP do not har~ain ourselves awav in keeping them happy. 1-'r. Speaker, some auestions need t~ be answered. Are we now borrowing beyond our ahilitv to repay? Is that what is happening? Are we promising - T do not want to ask that Question, ~r. Speaker. I can answer that one. This government is promising far beyond its ability to rleJivPr.

Ask the people in Clarenville who 1dtnessed the Pre~ier cut rlo~~ that tree in a great flamboyant exercise to ~ive all and sun~rv notice that the hospital was going ahead. MR. MOORES: The hospital is. SO~ HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~. Sl~ONS: Ah, Mr. Speaker, that is great consolation to the people in ClarPnville, that it will be built. It will be built, ~r. Speaker, but J doubt that it will be built by this administration. .JIR. !oiOORES: ~ SP""ONS: I suppose. f-'1'. MOORI\S: It never will be built by yours • Ah, ha. That, ~r. Speaker, is not worth responding to. No, hoy . You cannot respond. AN HON.

MEMBER: That is parliamentary now. That is parliamentary. ~ . S I!oiMONS : "'r. Speaker, the Premier was never accused of being an expe r t on what is parliamentary. Promtsin~, Mr. Speaker, beyond their abilitv to deliver. He savs the hospital in C]arenvtlle will be built. I certainly hope so, an~ the hospital in Salt Ponrl and the extension which we so badly neerl in r.rand Falls. M:mv of mv own constituents in Bay d'Espoir depend very heavily on that .

I have visited that hospital in the last six or seven months when people were actually bein~ accommodated as p;~ttents out :In the corri~ors because of the want of space • . .t'B..!__ _f'!~RES: Who built the clinic? }<R. Sl!IIMI"NS: Now, "~r. Speaker, ~·e have further delays. MP. }'0(1RES: ''l'. SIM!oiONS: Hhn bu:ll t the cl fnic? T do not kno t-• "rho built the clinic. You tell me. 501

l'l('t"('f ,•bt>T 1 , 19 75 T:.pe 200 ~''"· !:pe;oker. ;u: T nnderstanrl - the cl.i"ic.- in !lay d'Espoir , ves T know ~~n built the c.-lJnic in Bav d'fspnfr. Tt wa~ not this administration, "'r. Srf"nker. Tt was not? No. it was not this administration. The ~stter was "11 signed, sealed and deliverer!, ~r. $peake r, the !lay d'Espoir clinic. Of course it ~·as. ••o, MOOPP.S: Tt must be the first paper cHnic. "r. $H?'nNS: Oh. the l're!l'ier is in a "onrlav mood. ~c r. Speake r , a tnnd11v II'()Od. If y611 think -...e is in a hac! mood now, you should st>e him on F'riclay, ~·r. SpeAker . AN liON.

ME~'BP.P : Get on with it. 1-'1'. $li'MONS: The clinic in !lAy d'Espoir si~ed, seAtecl and delive re d 1-v the foTJI'e-c LihPrAJ Administration, l>fr. Speaker. Well, not delivered . The thin$: w"s not finished but it "'as certninly unrler cont r act . Clinic or ne> clin f <'. ~·r . Sre;:tker, 1t is anothe r of the Preoier 's f mnus tactics nf the red herrinr "PJ'TO,.C'h. r11n1rs in 502

December 1, 1975 Tape No . 201 NM- 1 MR. SIMMONS: Bay d'Espoir do not provide extra hospital bed capability in Grand Falls and now this latest delay means that we must wait even a longer period for it. He says the hospital in Clarenville will be built. I hope so. I know so. The question is when , and that is what the people in Clarenville and Grand Falls and Salt Pond and Goose · Bay are asking. The fact of the matter, Mr.

Speaker, it was not the fact that we have just discovered, we have known for some time that the spending of this government is completely out of control, completely out of control, And what guarantee do we have now that we will be brought back into control, that is what concerns me. We cannot undo what has been done. What about the future? What about the rest of this fiscal year and the following fiscal year?

Yes,! can see this budget was necessary but let the record show why it was necessary, not because of inflation but because of mismanagement, not because of conditions which exist external to this Province but because of the bungling of this administration within this Province. That is why we need a second budget this year. I do not mean, Mr. Speaker, mismanagement from the standpoint of misappropriation of funds or that kind of thing. I would not want that to be imputed. That is not what I am talking about.

I am talking about the kind of thing I alluded to earlier, cooking the books if you would like to call it that, giving a rosy picture- MR. WELLS: fo!r , Speaker, "cooking the books" is a phrase which in our society has the clear imputation of dishonesty and I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that that be ruled out of order ""·d that the hon, me.lllber be 111ade to withdraw it. MR. SPEAKER: I would request the hon. member so to withdraw. J do not have at hand a reference to that particular phrase but I do take it that that is unparliamentary. MR. SIMMONS: Well, Mr. Speaker, that one I withdraw also.

I was of the impression- I have withdrawn it without qualification- and in defense of self I was of the impression that the Leader of the Opposition had used it in debate sometime last week and it was in that context that I used it. 503

December 1, 1975 Tape No. 201 NM- 2 ~. SI~IDNS: But 1 have withdrawn it. I have withdrawn it without qualification. I have said that I feel strongly that the government projected a rosier picture than was realistic. I have demonstrated, Mr . Speaker, I have demonstrated that revenues were overstated, and I have demonstrated that expenditures were understated. I say it was done in the interest of presenting a picture that was unrealistic. The Minister of Finance himself has said that the budget of last Spring was unrealistic and on that I concur with him. Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying a moment ago I think it is important for the future, We cannot undo what has been done but so that we have a lesson to go by for the future I think it is important to see how the Tories got us all into this particular mess. As I said I do not think it would be wise nor would I want to suggest, because I do not feel it, that there has been any mismanagement from the point of view of misappropriation. But I think the mismanagement that I am talking about comes from an election year desire to present a rosy picture and to allow themselves to do that, Mr.

Speaker, to overstate revenues, to understate expenditures, I believe is unforgiveable and I hope we have seen the last of 1.t. Mr. Speaker, what puzzles me about this matter of overstating the revenue~ and understating the expenditures is why? Why? There are all kinds of documents and I would be prepared to give them to the minister but I think he has them, all kinds of documents which will demonstrate that the various figures to which I have alluded, retail sales tax, income tax yield, equalization grants and others, the figures on which I have based my conclusions, those figures were 504

---J ---~---- December 1, 1975. Tape 202 RH - 1 all available on or before April 1 of last year before the beginning of the present fiscal year. Now, if the government says that they did not know of the existence of those documents, well that is nothing short of an admission of complete incompetence on the part of the government. Mr. Spea~er, it is clear to me that the Tories have played games with the financial resources of the Province. The implications of our current financial situation are going to be with us for a long time. We are going to live to pay for it.

We are going to live to regret and to pay for and to have to suffer out the consequences of this deficit, be it $11 million as the minister says or $20 million or so as I say. The implications on our economy will be long and very negative. I think it is fair to say, Mr. Speaker, without getting too partisan that this latest exercise of the two budgets and the reasons for them is just the latest example of they this government has such a lack of credibility in the Province. So, Mr. Speaker, let us, all of us,let the word go out you really cannot believe a Tory, you really cannot believe a Tory. Mr.

Moores - I am sorry - the Premier, - MR. DOODY: The hon. the Premier. MR. SIMMONS: - the hon. the Premier announced .1ust days, I believe, before the election that evervthinp, was all go for Come By Chance, not a worry in the world boys, full speed ahead. And then, just a few days after the election when we heard the news about the financial troubles Mr. Shaheen was having with reference to Come By Chance, Mr. Moores comes out and levels again. Oh! I knew that all along, he says, we have been in discussion for a long time about that. 11m having difficulty krim~inp, - MR. MORGAN: That is nothing new. Mr.

Speaker, I MR. SIMMONS: Ah ha! Not as much difficulty as the member for Bonavista South is having, Mr. Speaker. I would not wish that kind of difficulty on anybody. Mr. Speaker, I am having difficulty 505

necember 1, 197). TaT!e 202 RH - 2 MR. SIMMONS: ------ knowin~ ho~r the PrPmier cou .ld WE'ar so many caos and can make so many conflicting statements There must be an explanation for it 5ome- where. On the one hand, a few davs before the election he says in reference to Come Bv Chance, "Everything is go ahead, I have been talking to Mr. Shaheen. We are ~oing to have the expansion to the refinery. no not worry about it boys. She is full speed ahead." And a few days after when it becomes T!Ublic that Mr. Shaheen is involved in some financial oroblems,we hear the Premier sayinp,, "Oh, T knew about that all along.

I h;we been discussing it with them." Mr. ST!eaker, this is .iust one of two or three examples where it all does not jibe. There is something that we are not being told and I wish in the intere~t of good government, in the interest of . leveling with the people, something which we are told these fellows tJ~>nt to do, Mr. Spe,.ker, I wish in the interest of "11 that somebody would explain it to u~. He can talk about the Lower Churchill again if we want and we will have an opportunity to do so at some more length a little later on.

But 1uRt in refence to the government's record to date on this matter, thE' budget supplem,nt of last Sprin~, said that the present construction

schedule visualizes full pro;ect commitment in October of this year. And without reading other details, if you go through it vou will find that there is a fairly optimistic, a fairly optimistic commPntary on the Gull Island pro.1ect to the effect that, no problems, do not worrv about it, full speed ahead. ~at impression has been clearlv left with us. Of course, we have heard the Minister of F.nergy's statement and we know the full story or at least I hope we know the full story at this noint. Hhile on that sub1ect, we ought to recall also that the Premier ;ust before the election went down to Yankee Point and to Savage Cove 506

December 1, 1975 Tape 203 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: - - ~--- and I thi.nk it is fair to say he gave the full impression that the project as far as the tunnel was concerned was again full speed ahead. Now, Mr. Speaker, again the Premier has got some explaining to do so far as Come By Chance and the Lower Churchill is concerned. I believe that we should be able to expect more of the government leader in this Province than that, the spokesman for the people of Newfoundland in that kind of charade.

Perhaps it is not a charade, perhaps there is a perfectly logical explanation, but you would like to hear what it is, I think a lot of people around this Province would like to hear what it is. Until I hear the explanation, Mr. Speaker, I can only come to the conclusion that they have badly broken faith with the people of Newfoundland. MR. WELLS : ------ On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The member has strayed again close to an allegation of dishonesty - there is breach of faith , or in other words that a lie has been told.

This is msentially what his words are amounting to that if he is straying - MR •. ~IMMONS: What words? MR._ W.!:,L!!_S_:_ Any words you chose. MR. F. ROWE : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As I remember . my colleague simply said has broken faith with the people of Newfoundland . I read into that simply that they have not kept their election promises. There is no question of dishonesty whatsoever involved here, and if it i~ unparliamentary to say that election promises have not been kept I have yet to hear that citation, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: - - - - --- Order, please!

The hon. gentleman has within my understanding of the term kept himself in order. As I understand that he has accused the government of - he stated bad faith. His opinion is something to the affect that faith has not been kept. I do not see an imputation of motive there, but a statement of opinion. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes,what I was saying is that I feel, and I just used Lower Churchill and Come By Chance as examples but there is a multitude of other examples I could cite, Mr. Speaker , all of which leads one to the conclusion. It is a conclusion, Mr. 507

necember 1, 1975 Tape 203 PK - 2 Mr.~<;_immons:_ Speaker, a conclusion on my part that the government has broken faith with the people of this Province. The people of the Province had been led to expect that all was well on the Lower Churchill. That is not the case. That all was well on Come By Chance. We know that is not the casP.. We have heard even today that the matter has not been satisfactorily brought to a conclusion insofar as a certain mort~age is concerned on Come By Chance.

The people were led to believe all kinds of things about road paving and water and sewer and so on, which I shall not go into again, but just call them to nrlnd for the benefit of people who have some difficulty subscribing to my statement that the government has broken faith. I feel very strongly that the government has broken faith with the people of this Province.

I believe also,in the absence of some explanation, why the Premier can make one statement about the Lower Churchill before the election and a somewhat different one after, and in light of the fact that he made a statement about Come By Chance which I referred to just now and a very different one after, in the light of those conflicting, obviously to me conflicting additions, and in the absence of some explanation which I shall be happy to have, in the absence of that I can only come to the conclusion that they have bungled, Mr .

Speaker, just about eveJYthing they have touched since they came to power, everything that would produce for us job opportunities. Labrador Linerboard, Mr. Speaker, now there is the place where they were going to shine. I wish the Minister of Energy who was then the Minister of Finance, ~ t the time to which I want to refer, were in the House, because he could confirm one or two of the points on this subject which I wish to make. But even in his absence, let me recall for you, Mr.

Speaker, his days in Opposition when he used to rave on about the great crime that had been perpetrated by selling the two buildings over there for $450,000 I believe is the figure, two large buildings at, dormitories .! believe ,at Stephenville, and 508

December 1, 1975 Tape no. 204 Page 1 - mw how they were going to undo it. Mr. Speaker, let the records show they undid it, thev undid it to their undyin~ credit, Mr. Speaker, they got the buildings back, and the buildings were and are to this day government property. They got the buildings back. And if the money had been paid to the private entrepreneur, $450,000, well I suppose he got his cheque back, I do not know, or the government got the cheque back or whatever. He gave the cheque back. But anyway let the records show that the ~overnment owns the buildings. But let the record also show, Mr.

Speaker, that the government tried to sell the buildings last Spring, the buildings that the government figured were a give away at $450,000. The government tried to sell them last Spring and called the public tenders, and they received the tender, one tender, one tender only. The tender offer was for one of the buildings only. And the amount of the tender was not $450,000 or even half that amount, Mr. Speaker. The tender offer was for $1 - $1! MR. SMALLWOOD: The price of the two buildings was $250,000. MR . SIMMONS: The member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood),the former Premier who was obviously in a position to know corrects me that the price of the two buildings was not $450,000 but $250,000. Well, Mr. Speaker, I recall the racket that was kicked up, the shocking racket that the Minister of Energy portrayed across this Province that the government should sell these buildings. Well they got them back, Mr.

Speaker, and I hope they are happy with thea, I am told that in view of the heating problems they are almost completely useless to the extent that one would-be developer figured one of them was worth $1 last Spring when the government called tenders to finally ~et rid of them. But that is only again the tip of the iceberg, Mr. Speaker, insofar as the government's handling of Labrador Linerboard is concerned. I am told, and again I am sub1ect to correction, I am told that the union at Labrador Linerboard has no confidence whatsoever in the management out there.

I am told they feel they have some pretty good reasons for that. I do not know, Mr. Speaker. I am not expert on these matters. 509

December 1, 1975 Tape no. 204 Page 2 - mw ~1r. Simmons: But as a representative of a constituency I think I ought to ask what is going on out there. It is now a puhlic corporation and yet we have yet to see the first financial statement. We have not seen a .financial statement from this government since it took over that operation three and one-half years ago. We have no financial accounting about how things are going at Labrador Linerboard. We can speculate from some of the little tidbits of information we pick up.

We can speculate that things are not going very well, but we have no financial statement yet from this government. This is the ~overnment, Mr. Speaker, that ~4as ~oing to tell all, was going to level with the people of this Province. Well, Mr. Speaker, they are not exactly telling it the way it is on Labrador Linerboard,I will tell you. And while we are talking about Labrador Linerboard, what about the Goose Bay logging operation.

Almost anybody who has had any contact at all with the Goose Bay area, let alone the Linerboard, but just the community of Happy Valley -Goose Bay, will tell you that it is common knowled~e that the logging operation down there is a complete joke. It is a grosslv inefficient operation. Why1 Mr. Speaker, I believe the time has come for any independent inquiry into Labrador Linerboard and its operations. I believe the taxpayers of this Province have a right to know what is going on there and how their money is being spent or misspent. It is not enough, Mr.

Speaker, to say we produce linerboard and we provide jobs, as important as these two are. But as this administration ha~ so often asked in reference to ERGO at Long Harbour, at what price are we providing those 1obs and producing that linerboard1 The people of this Province, the people who are footing the bill have a right to know. They do not know now. Because, as I have said, we have not seen a financial statement on Linerhoard 510

/ December 1, 1975 Tape No. 205 NM- 1 MR. SIMMONS: for three and a half years. I feel very strongly in the interest of seeing what our true financial picture is, I feel very strongly that there ought to be an independent public enquiry into the Linerboard.

Let it be either a select committee of this House or perhaps the members of this House have sufficient other things to do, but let it be an independently appointed enquiry with people who have no vested interest. in that industry or in that particular operation, to tell us once and for all what the real facts are insofar as the Linerboard operation is concerned at Stephenville and Goose Bay. I predict, a bit of information that I picked up from visits recently to Stephenville and Goose Bay, I predict that the enquiry will turn up some fairly unsavoury findings - MR. WHITF.: Worse than that. MR.

SIMMONS: - findings which will not reflect very much on the credit, to the credit of the people who are the directors of that company, including several of the Cabinet Ministers. But in any event, Mr. Speaker, predictions aside, the need is clearly there for a public enquiry to find out once and for all what is going on with the Linerboard operation in Stephenville and Goose Bay. Mr. Speaker, the Tories, the Tory Administration, this government are consistent about a lot of matters, no question about that.

This latest budget, the 1975 budget we saw last week, not the mini budget of last Spring but the real budget, the one we got last Monday, the one they could not bring down last Spring for the reasons they best know, that budget told us the good news the Minister of Forestry was talking about. We are going to sock it to you with another two per cent on sales tax, another two points on the income tax and so on. Well, Mr. Speaker- MR. ROUSSEAU: I did not say that was good newa. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the Miaister of Forestry and Agriculture was interjecting earlier in the afternoon and he talked about good news.

Perhaps he did not mean to say, in fairness to him, that these particular tax increases were good news. I know him well and I would think, Mr. Speaker, that he would know the difference. 511

December 1, 1975 Tape No. 205 ~- 2 MR. DOODY: All the facts that you presented were not necessarily true. MR. SIMMONS: ~r. Speaker, this government is consistent. Not only did they bring in tax increases this year :, in 1975, Mr. Speaker, and their record was almost broken with the mini budget last Spring, because they did not bring any tax increases in and they had like to be inconsistent because they had brought tax increases in in 1972, the first year they were in office, in 1973, the second year t