Manitoba Hansard — 10 December 1991 (Sitting 4, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-4

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Sessio n • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba VOL. XLI DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Printed by the Office of the Q.-ns Printer. Province of Man/lobs ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON , Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDR Y, Neil GILLESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HE LWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWA Y, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCH UK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB NO NO LIB LIB ND LIB NO PC PC PC PC NO ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC NO LIB PC NO PC ND LIB NO PC NO PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NO PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC NO ND

12 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, December 10, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): I beg to present the petition of the Salvation Army Grace General Hos pital Incorporated, praying for the passing of

an act to amend The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital Incorporation Act. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask leave of the House for unanimous consent to drop my name from the Order Paper. Mr. Speaker: I have been advised by the honourable member for Burrows that he would like his name stricken under Reading and Receiving Petitions. As all honourable members are aware, we need unanimous consent to do it. Is there leave of the House to withdraw the name of the honourable member for Burrows under Reading and Receiving Petitions? Agreed? It is agreed.

The name will be withdrawn. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): I would like to table the 19 90-91 Annual Report of the Milk Prices Review Commission and the 19 90-91 Annual Report ofthe Farm Lands Ownership Board. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 19 90-91 Annual Report for the Department of Environment. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Report of the Office of the Provincial Auditor on the Special Audit of the Taxation Division-Department of Finance. Speaker's Statement Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to direct the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us this afternoon the six interns. As members know, the Manitoba Legislative Internship Program has been in operation since 19 85. Each year, a total of six interns are chosen for the program. Again this year, two interns have been assigned to each of the three caucuses. Their term of employment is 12 months. During their term, interns perform a variety of research and other tasks for private members, as distinct from ministers.

They participate in a series of academic seminars on the political process in Manitoba and are required to prepare an in-depth research paper on some aspect of the Manitoba politics. Successful applicants for the program are chosen on the basis of their academic excellence and potenti al, personal qualities such as maturity, responsi bility, judgment, tact and discretion, a demonstrated interest in and knowledge of either parliamentary government or Manitoba government and politics, and evidence of the skills needed to assist an MLA in the performance of his or her duties.

My purpose today is to announce the names of the six young people who have been selected to serve as Manitoba's 19 91 -92 legislative interns. They commenced their assignment at the beginning of September. Working with the government caucus are: Ms. Trina Scribner of Brandon University and Ms. Rhonda Zimmerman of Brandon University. Working with the caucus of the official opposition will be Ms. Tamsin Collin gs of the University of Manitoba and Mr. Glen Holmes of the University of Winnipeg. Working with the caucus of the second opposition party will be Miss Leanne Matthes of the University of Manitoba and Ms.

Michelle Driedger of the University of Winnipeg. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. * (1 335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Repap Manitoba Inc. Employment Statistics Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on March 11 , 19 89, almost three years

12 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA December 10 , 19 91 ago, the Premier and Mr. George Petty, chairman of the board of Repap corporation announced what they said would be a $1 billion boost to the Manitoba economy with the divestiture agreement for Manfor to Repap for an area of about one-sixth of the province's total area. They also commented at the time that there would be hundreds of jobs in addition to the existing work force on top of the investment. We know that the expansion cannot go forward because of the obvious licensing provisions of The Environment Act. Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Premier is: Are there more or less people working there today than when the Premier made the announcement? Secondly, the situation with Repap, can the Premier inform Manitobans of the financial situation with the corporation that he signed the agreement with? Hon. Gary Fllmon {Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will begin by saying that I do not have the exact job figures on Repap at the present time. I do know this, that last time Repap, when it was in public ownership under Manfor and was being operated under the former New Democratic government, with the member for Flin Ron (Mr.

Storie) as its minister, when it went through the last downturn in the '80s, we lost $32 million of taxpayers' money during one year alone under that kind of operation. So I do know this. At the same time, they cut their employment levels down by hun dreds of people in their operations. I do know this, that under the current downturn in the economy and indeed in the world market for pulp and paper, Repap is sustaining losses, there is no question, and has reduced its employment in accordance with that. At least in this case, those major, major costs are not being borne by the taxpayer of Manitoba.

Chlorine Bleaching Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Premier should know that, at the time of the divestiture, the shares of Repap were trading at $1 2 a share. They are now down to $4.35. I am surprised the Premier did not answer that in his answer to us in this Chamber. Surely that is an issue of importance to the government. We are hundreds short in terms of jobs, Mr. Speaker. In fact, the only place where we see improvement in this industry is in the areas where corporations have gone into the new technology and have gone to chlorine-free production ofthe product.

In fact, the three plants in Europe and the one new plant in Canada that is now producing the product without chlorine bleach, as proposed in the Repap expansion, are selling their products at over $20 a ton more. Surely if the government is concerned about both the environment and concerned about the economy and the jobs in The Pas, in the North and in Manitoba, will the Premier renegotiate with Repap to have the new technology introduced in northern Manit oba rather than staying with the old technology? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we have very openly said that one of the great advantages of being involved with Repap is that they are one of the people in the world, one of the few who have new technology that involves a replacement for chlorine bleach. Their Alcell technology is a world leader. We have said very openly during the course of all of our discussions publicly that there is a very high probability that Repap will indeed be able to totally substitute for chlorine by the time they get to the end of their changes and their investments in that plant. They are working on that new technology.

They are perfecting the technology, and they are world leaders. As soon as that technology is available for impleme ntation, it will be used so that we do not have to have chlorine in the process whatsoever. That is one of the objectives that we have had since Day One. • (1 340) Mr. Doer: All of us on this side who have read the contract will find there is no wording in the contract that gives Manitobans the right to have the chlorine-free technology that is now available as the Premier indicates.

Given the fact the government signed away one-sixth of Manitoba's territory, and given the fact that the new technology is available, and given the fact the government is giving $90 million in financial support in terms of highway development as part of the agreement, would the Premier now commit to renegotiate the agreement with Repap so that we could have the new chlorine-free technology, as the Premier has indicated, and have it in writing in the agreement as a guarantee for the one-sixth territory that we signed away to the Repap corporation?

December 10 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 124 Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, the former government, in the ownership of Manfor, had that one-sixth of Manitoba territory, absolutely, had that one-sixth of Manitoba territory committed to then Manfor. The rights that Manfor had were then transferred to Repap, adding savings to the taxpayer. I have already indi cated that, were that corporation in public ownership as it had been under the NDP, we could well have been losing $25 million and $30 million a year as the NDP did when they operated it in similar circumstances with the member for Rin Flon (Mr.

Storie) at the helm of that corporation. The fact of the matter is that the Alcell technology is not yet a proven commercial technology, and when and if it is, Mr. Speaker, Repap have assured us that they are very willing to consider that in the application of the process in Manfor in The Pas. Multicultural Resource Centre Closure Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, today is In te rnational Human Rig hts Day. Unfortunately, this government has a multicultural policy which they are choosing to ignore, although they like to wave it around in the House.

The way that they are choosing to ignore this policy is by eliminating services that ensure teachers and other people have access to cross-cultural material and resources, and they are instead creating the Multicultural Secretariat which is an office of political influence, control and patronage. My question is for the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism. Is she aware that the Multicultural Resource Centre has been dismantled? Can she explain how this is in keeping with the government's multicultural policy? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to say that we are a government that introduced the first multicultural policy in the province of Manitoba. In fact, the throne speech indicated that we would have the first multicultural act for the province of Manitoba in troduced in this session of the Legislature. So I am pleased that we are moving in that direction. Mr. Speaker, we have just in the last couple of weeks announced a new Bridging Cultures program that will have an antiracism component to it.

It is a program that was int roduced through the Immigration Branch of my department, and that will take one more step in the direction of attempting to have communities work together. There will be initiatives that are ongoing that will be announced during this session that will work towards harmony and unity in this province. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer the question. Will the minister urge her colleagues and her government to reinstate the staff and the board at the Multicultural Resource Centre which have been fired? Will she ensure that this centre is reinstated? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Speaker, I am somewhat confused with the questioning. Maybe if a little more detail could be provided on the Multicultural Resource Centre from the member opposite, I could provide a little more clarity in my answer. Education Resources Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, can the mi nister exp lain to the House how this government plans to ensure that teachers and other community leaders have access to multicultural resource material and cross-cultural education material, since they have eliminated this service from the Department of Education library? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): Mr. Speaker, I know there is a lot of information within the Department of Education on multiculturalism, and that information is not going to disappear overnight. The information that is there and available will still be available, and as we develop more information, that information will be made available to teachers and to the public. • (1 345) Misleading Advertising Consumer Protection Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Mr.

Speaker, I was recently contacted by a woman who incidentally is a constituent of the min ister's, who responded to an ad in the newspaper reading: Money, money, money, yes, earn money by stuffing envelopes. She then sent $1 in and got back another glowing indication of thousands that could be earned for another $1 5.95. She sent that in and got a document

12 5 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 10 , 1991 entitled: The Plan. That plan explained to her how she could go about placing the same ad as she had responded to. Mr. Speaker, I want to table a copy of those documents that I have referred to. When this woman contacted the minister, both her MLA and the responsible minister, she was told that there was no law prohibiting this practice. Mr.

Speaker, my question for the minister is: Why was she given this advice on the very day that the mi nister was hold ing a press conference announcing the new Business Practices Act when this practice is clearly not only in contravention of that- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Clearly, in speaking to that particular constituent, as both the member for St.

James and I have done, it was with considerable regret that I indicated to her that previous legislation could not address that but that the new Business Practices Act which is now being proclaimed would en able her to take action. I encouraged the individual to contact the Consumers' Bureau to discuss the issue in depth. I hope that provides the member with the answer he was seeking. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, for the same minister, as indicated earlier, this woman did contact the department. She did not indicate she contacted the minister.

Why was she not advised that this was in fact in breach of the competition act, which has been in place for years, when this document, which I assume the min ister has if she has spoken to the woman, claims earnings of $35,000 a week from these unsuspecting citizens of this province? Mrs. Mcintosh: No, I do not have the document which was provided to the member for St. James.

What I did do, as I said a moment ago, was encouraged this particular individual to contact the Consumers' Bureau to talk about the things that were available currently and will become available effective the 1 st of January for which she could take action, which would include discussions about the competition act and any other particular issue that she may care to enlarge upon with those experts over at the Consumers' Bureau. Misleading Advertising Consumer Protection Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Justice, on the same issue: Will the Minister of Justice-- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I am reviewing the list of rules that you have cast before us with respect to how we should conduct ourselves in Question Period, and I note No. 3(a), "A supplementary question must be asked to obtain clarification of the answer or answers provided by the mini ster to whom the original question was directed." Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it was very clear that questions in the same area could be asked, but questions in different areas could not be asked. If ministers are going to pass questions from minister to minister as they have been doing for the past three days, then presumably opposition members have the same rights. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, our rules on supplementary questions say they must be asked to obtain clarification of the answer or answers provided by the min ister to whom the original question was directed. We concur with that rule and believe it should be followed. Thank you. * (1 350) Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised, I would like to thank all honourable members for their advice. As has been indi cated by the honourable government House leader, as he did refer to in his opening remarks, these were simply guidelines.

Beauchesne's Citation 420, the Speaker has stated, "Of course, the Chair will allow a question to be put to a certain Minister; but it cannot insist that that Minister rather than another should answer it." Also, 41 4, "Although there may be no debate on an answer, further questions, as may be necessary for the elucidation of the answers that have been given, within due limits, may be addressed to a Minister."

December 10 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 12 6 *** Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, for clarification, I intend to direct the question to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General on the same issue. Mr. Speaker: For clarification purposes, I will allow the honourable member to put his question. I cannot ascertain as to indeed the Minister of Justice or indeed another minister will answer the question. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Justice in the same area.

Will the minis ter investigate why, when this woman contacted the City of Winnipeg Police Fraud Department, she was given the same advice she was from the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) according to her and told that this misleading advertising was not legally wrong? Will the mini ste r make sur e that the Fraud Department is aware of the competition act, which has been in place for years, which prohibits misleading advertising and indeed The Business Practices Act, which prohibits the same type of activities to protect Manitobans from this type of fraudulent activity? Hon.

James McCrae {Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the honourable member knows from past experience that, when he has raised issues with me and there has been merit to those issues, I have taken them forward to the appropriate authorities. If he wants to share with me the information that he wants me to share with Winnipeg Police, I will be more than happy to do so. The Pines Project Funding Reallocation Mr. Doug Martindale {Burrows): Last year, Manitobans rejected back-room deals like Meech Lake.

Yesterday, the Minister of Housing was forced to concede that the back-room deal known as Rotary Pines would not work either. Will the mi nister now reallocate the money intended for Rotary Pines to nonprofit housing and thereby create much-needed construction jobs, especially in Winnipeg where the unemployment rate is 10 .7 percent? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, the Seniors RentaiStart program, as the member full well knows, was cancelled April 1, 19 91, so any funding left from that program will terminate.

I can also advise, we have allocated all of the available units from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation for 19 91 already. Seniors RentaiStart Applications Mr. Doug Martindale {Burrows): Can the Minister of Housing tell us if all the applicants to Seniors RentaiStart were encouraged to apply to the private, nonprofit program? What is the status of their applications? If the decisions have already been made, could the minister announce to the House who received the unit allocation for this year? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the nonprofit program ,I can advise the Hous e-n ot just at the moment, but I will undertake to advise the House of those people who have been allocated in 19 91 and nonprofit units at a subsequent time. Nonprofit Housing Government Strategy Mr. Doug Martindale {Burrows): Can the minister tell the House, since there seems to be some confusion amongst the applicants, what the government pri ority is? Is the priority seniors housing or family housing? What proportion would be in the city of Winnipeg and what in the rest of Manitoba? Hon.

Jim Ernst {Minister of Housing): There are any number of programs that deal with housing for a variety of Manitobans throughout the province. We have the rural and Native program. We have a nonprofit program. We have seniors. We have family. We have a wide variety of programs, all of which have unit allocations put against them. Mr. Speaker, I will be happy to table that information. Urban Hospital Council Public Participation Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels {St. Johns): I have a question for the Premier. Last year the Premier said no to the process we underwent with Meech Lake.

In fact, in last year's Speech from the Throne, the Premier committed himself to saying no to the old style of elite accommodation and closed-door politics, yet this government's Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has established an Urban Hospital Council which has an elite membership, closed-door discussions and

127 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 10, 1991 unrealistic time lines, has heard no public input and simply is being used by this government to justify cuts and service reductions. Ours is a public health care system, Mr. Speaker, not the domain of one individual, the Minister of Health. Would the Premier have his Minister of Health open up his health care review process of 44 working groups to ensure the broadest possible input from health care professionals, consumers and Manitobans in general? * (1 355) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier}: Mr.

Speaker, firstly, the discussion of health care is one of the matters that takes place in the ope n, very pu blicly, throughout the course of each and every day of each and every year. It takes place in this House whenever we are in session. It is a matter of discussion in Question Period almost daily. It is a matter of discussion in our throne speech debates. It is a matter of discussion in our budget debates. It is a matter of discussion in the Estimates review. It is a very, very public discussion.

I mi ght say that there are times in which committees are struck, committees of people who are members of certain groups. I know that the member opposite participated in the committee called cabinet. That was a closed-door committee, I might say, that met every week. I know she participated in other cabinet committees on a closed-door basis, closed to the publi c in discussions. I know when she meets in caucus, it is closed to the public. She knows when there are people who get together to discuss things, who happen to be me mbers of cer tai n group s , they meet in consultation to discuss information.

This group, as I understand it, is the CEOs of the urban hospitals. They meet as a group discussing potential policy, but when there is any information that comes from that group that is a matter for potential public policy, it will be a matter of debate publicly in this Chamber, it will be revealed publicly and she will have an opportunity to criticize it or to be able to endorse it or to be able to support it- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Report Request Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, the only thing open about this- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St.

Johns, put your question, please. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Would the Premier, in the spirit of his most recent throne speech, which pledged this government to work together to build a stronger Manitoba, would he have his Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) table all 16 working group reports of the Urban Hospital Council received by his Minister of Health and for which implementation plans are underway? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier}: Mr.

Speaker, I would not suggest that people start dealing with reports that have not been adopted by the government, that have not been accepted by the government, that have not been even presented to the government when they are the product of discussions by third party groups. We have many third party groups in society which come up with prop osals to government. Those proposals are not matters for public debate by government until government at least acknowledges or endorses or supports those or suggests that they are worthy of public policy consideration.

None of that has happened with respect to the Urban Council, and the 16 reports that she suggests are being worked upon, Mr. Speaker. When any matters are going to be the subject of public policy discussion and potential decision, then indeed that will be a very public matter. We are not at that stage by any stretch of the imagination. Health Care System Reform Revenue-raising Proposals Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Let me then get to first party groups, the deputy minister of health.

Would the Premier indicate whether or not plans outlined today such as pizza sales and hairstyling are the far-reaching, novel health care reforms as promised in the throne speech and how they will help those who are lined up in emergency rooms and are on long waiting lists for necessary surgery? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier}: No, Mr. Speaker. Multicultural Secretariat Hiring Polley Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster}: Mr. Speaker, from Education to Culture and Heritage. When this government took office as a majority in September of 19 90, one of the first things they did in an attempt

December 10 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 12 8 to manipulate the multicultural community was establish a Multicultural Secretariat's office in which a Tory candidate was appointed. The first action he did was he hired a policy analyst who happened to be a campaign worker. I have now been informed the Minister- Mr. Sp eaker: Order. Qu estion, ple ase -( interjection)- Mr. Lamoureux: The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) should wait for the question. Mr. Speaker, then the government created an outr each office, and we com men ded the government for creating an outreach office. In fact, the minister- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member, kindly put your question now, please. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, the question to the minister is that I have been informed that Mr. Langtry was on the selection committee. Did Mr. Langtry abstain from the selection committee when the successful candidate who happens to be a worker for Mr. Langtry's election- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. · Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr.

Speaker, we have had an open competition process where over 300 people from the commu nity applied for the multicultural outreach offices. Twenty-six of those people were interviewed, were on the short list and were interviewed by a Civil Service board comprised of three members. All of the interviewees were asked the same questions and the successful candidate was a member of the Filipino community who has been very actively involved in that community and in many of the organizations.

I guess I would ask the question, does the member for Inkster have any indication to believe that this person would be unqualified or not deserving of the job? * (1 400) Mr. Lamoureux: The question is, was Mr. Langtry on the selection committee and if he was on- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, obviously the member for Inkster does not understand the Civil Service process.

In fact, when there is a board struck through the Civil Service Commission to interview people who apply for jobs, the manager usually of the unit is one of the people on that selection committee. That is part of the process, and there are three people-normally could be three or four people-w ho are on that selection committee and that is the process that is followed. It is the process that was followed in this instance. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, why does the minister persist to believe that it is not wrong for Mr.

Langtry, who was the candidate and on the selection commi ttee, for not abstaining himself from a committee in which a worker of his is applying for a position? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, people are not on a selection committee to abstain from making a decision. Mr. Langtry is the manager of the Multicultur al Secretariat. This person will be reporting through him to government and that is the normal process that is followed. I guess I might ask the question again of the member for Inkster, is he in fact saying that this person is not qualified? Core Area Agree ment Replacement Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, for two years now we have watched the federal and provincial Tory governments refuse to deal with the urgent issue of the renewal of Winnipeg's inner city. Mayor Norrie last week indicates that he expects to sign a Memorandum of Understanding within 30 days and that a new agreement will be in place by Apri1 1. Can the Minister of Urban Affairs confirm that this is also his understanding of the timing and process of the new tri-level agreement? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I am hopeful that will occur. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Speaker, I have been hearing that line now for nearly two years. Projects Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Will the minister confirm that, as the mayor believes, this new Core Area Agreement will include a focus on Main Street, a long-awaited aboriginal strategy and an inner city foundation?

12 9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA December 10 , 19 91 Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): I suspect the member for Wolseley ought to ask the mayor those questions. We have had ongoing discussions for some period of time. I am extremely confident that we will see a successful agreement within the time frame mentioned. Hopefully, as many of the problems that face the inner city as possible can be addressed under that agreement. Inner City Foundation Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister to clarify the fate of the last Inner City Foundation, that $1 million which was promised by the three levels of government to be of long-term assistance to the people of the inner city and which has simply disappeared. As the minister responsible to this House for the Core Area Agreement, will he explain precisely where that $1 million has gone? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, while the Inner City Foundation was proposed in the origi nal guideli nes for the agreement, no project authorization was ever completed with respect to the Inner City Foundation, so it never really actually took place. What happened was the allocation made for the Inner City Foundation was in fact reallocated along with funding from a variety of other programs in order to meet the current cash comm itments required by the Core Area Initiative. Conawapa Dam Project Postponement Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister who is still responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

Let me say, when his resignation finally comes into effect, we will miss this minister. We will miss his candour, his forthrightness and, most of all, his sense of humour. -(i nterjection)- Mr. Speaker, I never said that he was not candid, and I am going to look for a little bit of candour right now, if I could. The minister sold his cabinet colleagues on the wisdom of building the Conawapa dam because Manitobans would need the power by the year 2000. Latest projections by Manitoba Hydro show that we will not need the power for at least a decade beyond that and perhaps later.

Is it the minister's view now and the position of the government that there ought to be a delay to the Conawapa dam? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, that sounded like an obituary. I would like the member for Crescentwood to understand I will be around for a while yet. When Manitoba Hydro does its projections on the power requireme nts in the future, they do not have the benefit and the luxury of hindsight.

In 19 89 when a decision had to be taken as to the power requireme nts and what would have to be done for the year 2000, the best projection Manitoba Hydro had was that the year 2000-or 19 99 1 believe at the time-there would be a requirement for additional generation. The decision had to be taken whether to go ahead with Wuskwatim which would give us about 350 megawatts or go ahead with Conawapa which would give us 1 ,350 megawatts.

If we went with Conawapa, which was the preferred option because of the lesser environmental damage and the lesser cost per megawatt, we would first have to sell on a fixed term some 1 ,000 megawatts. A deal was struck with Ontario Hydro to sell 1 ,000 megawatts, and the remaining 350,000 megawatts would be kept for Manitoba Hydro's own use. As we sit here today, Mr. Speaker, it is quite possible, if the most recent projections are true, that had it not been for the Ontario sale, Manitoba Hydro would not require additional generation until the year 2009.

However, as we sit here today, we do have an Ontario Hydro sale which we cannot get out of. We do have to provide them with 1 ,000 megawatts starting the year 2000, and because of that, we cannot get out of building Conawapa. Expenditures-Ontario Hydro Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): We also, on this side of the House, hope that the minister will be around for a long, long time. My supplementary question to him, though, is: As Ontario Hydro spends money to prepare to receive the power from Conawapa, the exposure to Manitoba Hydro- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Question, please?

December 10 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 13 0 Mr. Carr: Can the minister tell the House how much has been spent to date by Ontario Hydro preparing to receive power from Conawapa? Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): I, of course, do not know how much Ontario Hydro has spent for which Manitoba Hydro might be responsible in the event that Manitoba Hydro could not deliver, but I have to remind the member for Crescentwood that the only condition under which we may get out of the agreement with Ontario Hydro is if we do not get an environmental licence that we cannot unilaterally opt out of that agreement.

We have an agreement for which we might be sued for specific performance if we do not deliver, and I do not think we can get out of that agreement unilaterally. * (14 1 0) Expenditures-Manitoba Hydro Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, how much will Manitoba Hydro have spent on the Conawapa project by the date in which Manitoba Hydr o will ha ve finis hed its envi ron men tal assessment? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): I do not have those numbers in front of me, but my guess is that it i&-no, it is not a guess. It is approximately $1 00 million.

Asslnlbola Downs Winter Harness Racing Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): My question is for the Minister of Industry and Trade. Last August, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) said that he would lobby the cabinet to save the winter harness racing season. Can the Minister of Industry and Trade tell this House whether in fact we will have a harness racing season this winter? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Back in August of this year, the private owner of the Assiniboia Downs announced that there would be no winter harness racing taking place at Assiniboia Downs. Mr.

Cllf Evans: Can this minister indicate then how many jobs will disappear in Winnipeg and rural Manitoba because of this government's inability to negotiate an agreement? Mr. Stefan son: Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure what the honourable member is getting at, but in terms of following this issue, and it is a very complicated issue, we had a meeting yesterday for some five hours with representatives from the horse racing associa tions, the harness raci ng, the thoroughbreds, the breeders , and representatives from Alberta, the president of the Canadian harness racing association and so on to try and address a long-term solution.

It is a privately owned racetrack, I would like to remind the members across the way, and the owner of that particular facility indicated that he was losing some $500,000 during winter harness racing. It is his business, his decision. He made a business decision that he is unable to continue in winter harness racing, and suggested that the only way that it could be carried on is if the government is prepared to put in some $500,000 from general revenue, I might add, Mr. Speaker, because we currently collect some $5.2 million in pari-mutuel tax from horse racing in Manitoba.

That full $5.2 million goes back to horse racing, unlike occurred in previous years with previous governments. The full $5.2 milli on is returned to horse racing in this province. Status Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, what guarantees does this min ister have then that we will not lose future harness racing nor thoroughbred racing in Manitoba, costing us more jobs because of simulcasting from the United States, where some of the revenues will be retu rned to the United States? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, once again I have to remind the honourable members across the way that this track is currently owned by a private owner, not unlike private businesses, not unlike all kinds of facilities here in our province. He has made a business decision in terms of winter harness racing. We are attempting to work with him and members of the industry to address the long-term health of horse racing here in Manitoba. It is an important industry, and jobs are important. We have also made a commitment to attempt to maintain the Great Western Circuit, unlike, I might add, the government of the day back in 19 87.

I have a copy of the correspondence of the minis ter then responsible for the Horse Racing Commission suggesting that they were looking at removing the Great Western Circuit from rural Manitoba, Mr.

131 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 10 , 1991 Speaker. So talk about hypocrisy coming from across the way. Retail Trade Sector Employment Statistics Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): For the Minister of Finance: The employment in the retail sector in Manitoba is down by 9 percent. In other words, Mr. Speaker, we lost 8,000 jobs in that sector in November of this year compared to November of last year. That is double the Canadian average decline, the second worst in Canada;

whereas in Saskatchewan, retail trade employment declined by only a half of 1 percent and ranks four out of 1 0. Why is Manitoba doing so badly in the retail trade sector? Hon. Clayton Man ness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I acknowledge the fact that there has been a drop in the employment area within the retail sector, but I would also ask the member to acknowledge the fact that, within the manufacturing area, within the wealth-creation sectors of our economy, we have had even some growth over the last month's year-to-date , and indeed it is within the wealth-creation area that ultimately the employment levels within the retail sector come from. That has been the whole approach from this government since we have been here.

It is to try to set a foundation by which the wealth generators, those within the manufacturing sector, can provide employment to more people so that indeed the retail system can take root and expand. That is the whole approach, different than the NDP at a different age, when they wished to borrow money to throw into the retail sector for a short period of time in the belief that that would generate wealth, Mr. Speaker. That system does not work. Goods and Services Tax Harmonization Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of Finance now guarantee to the House and the people of Manitoba that this government will not harmonize the provincial sales tax with the GST and thereby not impose any further sales tax burdens on the Manitoba consumers? Hon. Clayton Man ness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I have said in the closing of the last session-- the Premier has indicated as early as September or October, again reiterated, and I will reiterate again-that the government absolutely has no intention to harmonize the provincial sales tax and the federal GST over certainly the next budget and indeed, I would say, years beyond that. Mr. Leonard Evans: I thank the minister for that answer, Mr. Speaker. Economic Growth Employment Creation Strategy Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Will this government consider now finally or implement an anti-rece ssion program, such as providing jobs for welfare recipients, given the fact that most of our econom ic in dicators, most of the m, show a continuation of the economic recession? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Well, Mr. Speaker, I am intrigued by the reference that the member just made.

He seems to be saying, given the fact that our welfare rolls are expanding and we are committing several additional millions of dollars, that he now believes that those who are employable, who are drawing social assistance, indeed should be expected to work. If that is the position now, and I take that position seriously, I am intrigued- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Manness: -and I would be prepared to enter into a dialogue on that issue- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Manness: I am prepared to meet with the member after Question Period to discuss that issue, Mr.

Speaker, and I say that in all sincerity. If what the member though is saying is that we should indeed borrow yet hundreds of millions of dollars, like indeed we are paying the interest on now, the old Jobs Fund, a dollar which has not been paid back yet, and indeed borrow again significant amounts of money for short-term employment, I would say to him, that is deferred taxation, that represents a crippling to the manufacturing, indeed the retail trade sector, the emphasis on which he placed his first question. That is self-defeating, and that cannot be done. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to moving on to Orders of the Day, I would like to draw the attention of all members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon

December 10 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 13 2 from the Calvin Christian School thirty Grade 9 students. They are under the direction of John Buikema. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Nonpolitical Statements Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave?

It is agreed. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a statement today to commemorate International Human Rights Day. I had the opportunity this morning to attend the conference at the Union Centre put on by the Community Legal Education Association. It is a wonderful conference looking at human rights and equality issues for a variety of Manitobans.

Yesterday, I was also able to go to the opening of the new Coalition for Human Equity Association which was also an no u nced yesterday to commemorate Human Rights Day. * (1 420) I would like to take the opportunity to mention the number of organizations that already are part of the Coalition for Human Equality: the Canadian Human Rights Coalition, the City of Winnipeg Community Race Relations Committee, the Department of Education, Bureau de !'Education Franc;aise, the International Centre for Students, The League for Human Rights of B'nai Brith Canada, Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties, the Manitoba Coalition of Organizations Against Apartheid, the Manitoba Ethnocultural Youth Comm ittee , the Manitoba Federation of Labour, the Manitoba Intercultural Council, The National Film Board of Canada, the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, the Popular Theatre Alliance of Manitoba, the Thompson Citizenship Council, the United Nations Association of Canada, Winnipeg Branch, as well as Victor Mager School, the West- Man Multicultural Council, the Winnipeg Boys and Girls Club.

Mr. Speaker, these are the kinds of organizations that work every day to ensure that community members and community groups are empowered. I would just like to say that to me that is what human rights is all about, because unfortunately in our society all things are not equal. Until all things are eq ual, human rights are not about treating everybody the same, but they are about ensuring that those marginalized groups and individuals are able to determine their own destiny and work for their equality. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr.

Carr) have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave? It is agreed. Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): I, too, would like to commemorate International Human Rights Day. It is an opportu nity, Mr. Speaker, for us as Canadians to reflect on the tremendous advances we have made as a society in the protection of human rights. We can all remember back to the days when the Charter of Rights was being debated by all political parties and by individuals right across the country.

We knew, and we would entrench a Charter of Rights and Freedoms as the fundamental law of Canada, that there were no losers; there were only winners. I cannot lose rights as an individual if you have rights as one, Mr. Speaker, and the best way to defend and protect collective rights in a society is to make sure that every citizen, every individual, is treated equally under the law, and what we did in 19 82 was take a giant step forward to hold our head high as a nation, to say that any individual, regardless of where they live or from where they come, have equal rights as citizens under the Jaw.

Today, International Human Rights Day, is a day for us as Canadians to rejoice on that tremendous accomplishment and to be forever vigilant to protect all of our rights as citizens. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave? It is agreed. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleagues. I join with other honourable members today in calling attention to December 10 being Human Rights Day.

Indeed I had the privilege earlier today to attend a candle-lighting ceremony to observe and help us observe Human Rights Day and Human Rights Day activities. The lighting ofthat

133 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA December 10, 1991 candle is symbolic of those things which have gone on before, the progress that we have made and also symbolic of the fact that there remains much to do in terms of protecti ng the individual rights and liberties of people in our country. I just join with all of those who share in my concern and the concern of my colleagues in this House about human rights and to remind everyone that the moment we stop being vigilant about human rights, the moment we start going in the other direction, and that is in the direction of losing our human rights.

So I make those comments and join with my colleagues in observing Human Rights Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE Mr. Speaker: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer). For an Address to His Honou r, the Lieutenant-Gove rnor in answer to His Speech at the opening of the session. And the Proposed Motion of the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) in an amendment thereto as follows: THAT the motion be amended by adding to it the following words: But this House regrets that: 1. since assuming office, after September 19 90, this government has been both arrogant and extreme in its disregard for the people of Manitoba; 2. this government's inaction, in particular in our key transportation sector, will lead to further economic tragedy, adding even mo re fami li es to the rolls of those Manitobans who are unemployed or on welfare; 3. this government's in action has been especially harmful in northern Manitoba wher e we are now ex periencing unprecedented levels of joblessness; 4. this government has taken no initiative to guarantee farmers receive the real cost of production and, instead, has supported inadequate farm programs which continue to force family farmers off their land and is standing aside as the federal government abandons the Port of Churchill; 5. this government is allowing the essential health, educ ation and social services Manitobans cherish to erode steadily through financial neglect and shortsighted and uncoordinated policy approaches; 6. this government, despite its words to the contrary, has failed to implement the vital recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry; 7. this government's environmental strategy is based on public relations and lacks a vision for the long-term stewardship of our natural resources; 8. this government continues to support the Mulroney Free Trade Agreement and remains silent on the proposed North American Trade Deal with Mexico.

And that this government has thereby lost the trust and confidence of the people of Manitoba. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is a delight yet once again to join in the debate on the Speech from the Throne. It is an honour that each and every one of us has that we serve in this Legislative Assembly, and that was brought home to me very forcefully by a number of individuals on Saturday who came to the Assembly to not only celebrate the Christmas spirit but to join with their legislators.

So many of them said to me what a beautiful building it was, what a beautiful atmosphere this was and how did I feel when I walked into the building each and every day. I said, well, I still walk in with a sense of awe that I work within such a wonderfully constructed building. More importantly, I am in awe of our dem ocratic process that gives us the opportunity to represent our constituents and to speak as I am speaking today in a free democracy. Mr.

Speaker, the throne speech delivered in this Chamber last Thursday, unfortunately, reflects a complete vacuum of ideas and showed the total lack of vision of this government. It, sadly, contained nothing new and gave Manitobans no reason to hope for their future. The Premier and hi s government have adopted the do-nothing model, and even though they have commissioned in excess, according to our records, of 12 0 studies, the accompanying action or implementation plans are virtually nonexistent. It is for this reason that my caucus and I are prepared to share with the government and the

December 10 , 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 13 4 official opposition our plans for the future of Manitoba. We are pleased that they have picked up our ideas in the past, such as the reduction of the size of City Council and rural revitalization through municipal bonds. Perhaps they can follow through on a few more after today. The Liberal Party, Mr. Speaker, has been, since the days of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, the party of reform, not to be confused with the party that simply calls itself that. It is the Liberal Party which is dedicated to the individual and the needs of individuals.

We have not been co-opted by special interest groups, whether those special interest groups are business or labour, because to be so co-opted would not give us the freedom to speak out on the injustices which occur daily in our society. Righting these wrongs and creating a socie ty of oppor tuni ties for individuals are among our goals, and to accomplish this requires a sound economy, jobs and respect and consideration for individuals. Mr. Speaker, despite the occasional reports of the end of the recession, most of us living in Manitoba feel the same gloom that we have been feeling for some time.

Job losses and layoffs have touched many Manitobans either directly or indirectly. A ll of us have felt the crunch of our wallets by the double whammy of GST and recession, and yet this is the very time when we are called upon to force ourselves to look out at the society around us and to look to help those who have been victimized by circumstances beyond their control. It is not that we shoul d not examine the fundamental cause of our malaise, but we must not allow the debate over the cause to prevent our action. Mr. Speaker, we can argue at length about the causes of the recession.

I think it is obviously clear that one thing is not the cause. We do not have a recession in Manitoba because of a lack of First Ministers' conferences on the economy. The First Ministers of this country, they should be reminded, are not the leading economic experts in the land, and certainly the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province and his Conservative cousin counting down his days in the Prime Minister's office are proof of that. If the Premier had so much to say on the national stage of a First Ministers' conference, why could he not have anything to say in the Speech from the Throne?

Since the Premier and his government are void of new ideas to lift this pro vince out of the recession, all he will bring to such a conference, it would appear, is an enthusiasm for a good photo opportunity and a chance to look like he is doing something. We already know that interest rates are too high, that the dollar is too high and that the Mulroney government's rollback of federal transfers to the provinces are gutting much of what this country is most proud of. • (1 430) What a Liberal Premier would be doing is working in Manitoba with Manitobans.

We need a Manitoba strategy to train our people for new challenges and to put them to work. Our resolution calling for work force revitalization recommends as a start that we est ablish a sys tem to track indu stry . This in formation would be used to predict which businesses face a shortage of qualified workers. We would also identify those facing closures and layoffs. Our labour adjustment strategy would take these into account. We need a plan agreed upon among equal partners in labour, bus in ess, government and education, and we needed it yesterday.

We cannot ride out this recession doing nothing more than complaining about the obvious failures of the federal government. We need to get to work right here in Manitoba. We have the will, the skill and the people to do it. You know, Mr. Speaker, the Premier in his Speech from the Throne took some pleasure in talking about the wonderful activities that surrounded Grey Cup week. Well yes, indeed, they were wonderful activities, and they were the result of people from all walks of life working together to make it happen. I am sure that Art Mauro did not ask them for their political party membership.

All he wanted was people concerned about working together to make Manitoba do something very, very special. One of the first priorities for action in this province must be health care. As a result of several recent leaks, we have seen the future of health care envisaged by the Conservative Party, and it is shocking. Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson) wishes to conduct a conversation, could she do it elsewhere?

13 5 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 1 0, 19 91 As a result of several recent leaks, we have seen the agenda. That agenda includes introducing user fees, some up front and some through the back door via extra taxation. It also includes some presently insured services being declared a luxury and hitting them with a luxury fee, and some services may be deinsured altogether, while others are to be capped.

The Conservative plan is to send more people out of the province for expensive services that will be termi nated at home, a clear admission that the gover nmen t exp ects and accepts that our neighbours will be able to provide what we cannot. Manitobans will have to rely on other provinces or states to prop up our health care system. Our hospitals are on the block. We have seen the proposal to shut down one of them, and we have seen the proposals to close emergency wards, particularly that of Misericordia, while at the same time we know that the St. Boniface emergency room is overcrowded.

The government of this pro vinc e is also considering an im plemen tation plan for the marketing of Manitoba heahh care services in the United States, a plan which threatens to put the needs of fee-pa ying fore ign ers ahead of Manitobans. This is a depressing picture indeed, Mr. Speaker. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Now, I know that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), chirping in his seat, will repeat again and again that the plans I refer to are only the subject of consultations of the Urban Hospital Council and not the recommendations or policy.

Well, even if the minister repeats his lines a thousand times, he will not dispel the truth of the matter. The truth is that these items have been on the agenda for months. The Deputy Minister of Health is the Chair of the Urban Hospital Council. The government has designed and oversees this consultation process, and, indeed, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) boasts about it at every opportunity. The truth of the matter is this: If the government believed that the plans I listed are objectionable, it could very easily remove them from the agenda, but the government has not done that.

It will not clear the air, so we can only conclude that these dangerous plans are in deed part of the Conservative agenda for health care. The Lib er al Party is working for a more forward-looking and a more constructive vision of health care in Manitoba. We are acutely aware that we do not have the money to maintain the current course indefinitely. We need a different approach that encompasses a new philosophy for efficiency of delivery of health care, and we need specific concrete measures to improve the way the vast system works on the ground.

We believe the key is to put the needs of the individual Manitoban at the forefront, Mr. Acting Speaker. People must come first. The Liberal Party believes that the concept of community-based health care is the cornerstone around which we can build a secure foundation for the medicare system for the coming decades. By putting facilities closer to the people who need them and making them more accessible we can treat many illnesses sooner before they become more serious and require more costly treatment.

A com munity-based approach will allow us to construct an all-encompassing framework for wellness and illness prevention in our society rather than a system that can only respond to serious illness with expensive and complex treatments. We must make technology work for us more efficiently. The most expensive -(interjection)- The AcUng Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. Mrs. Carstalrs: Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker.

The most expensive and advanced facilities can be more centralized and the refore made more affordable, but that mu st go along with a community-based philosophy which will ensure that technology is indeed working for people rather than pe rpetuating a system in which people are subordi nated to the needs of technology. The Conservative government talks a great deal about community-based care, but its actions undermine its rhetoric.

The Conservative agenda is to wind down the health care system, to hack it and to slash it until the bottom line is reduced to match up with the quickly disappearing transfer of funds from the Mulroney government in Ottawa. The Liberal agenda is a creative search for new approaches and ideas that put people first and which look ahead to a better health care system in coming years. Mr. Acting Speaker, the Liberal agenda also includes some specific actions that must be taken immediately in order to start a

December 10 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 6 realignment that will refocus the system on the needs of real people rather than exclusively on the bottom line. The Liberal Health critic, the honourable memb er for The Maples (Mr . Che ema), has introduced several private members' bills and we are hoping for all-party support. Mr. Speaker, the health care directives act is the product of extensive consultation and discussion led by the Manitoba Law Reform Commission.

This bill will give effect to every Manitoban's right to self-det ermin ation as a patient within the health care system. lt will enactthe living wills concept and thus allow anyone to decide for himself or herself what sorts of treatment are unacceptable and allow the individual to refuse unwanted treatment. We are seeing an increasing number of cases across the continent in which individuals are attempting to assert control over their own lives and bodies in their final days, but are thwarted by entrenched and outdated attitudes and interests.

These attitudes and interests are what we Liberals want to reform in the health care system so that people will come first. In 19 80, in May, I was called to Halifax because my father had had a major stroke. This was his second, his earlier one being ten years before. When I arrived at the hospital directly from the airport, he was lying there with his body gradually filling with fluids, attached to a number of machines. I said my goodbye and went to visit my mother, who said to me, Sharon, go back to the hospital and do what you have to do.

Knowing that she and my father had consulted with each other, I did go back to the hospital and, working with the doctors, I asked them to disconnect the machinery. Little was I to know that some seven months later I would be called upon to do exactly the same thing for my mother. I was lucky, Mr. Acting Speaker, because I knew what my parents wanted done. We had spoken about it as a family. I spoke about it again this summer with my own daughters. At 19 and 22, one does not think one should talk about those kinds of issues with one's daughters because they are obviously going to outlive you.

But, with the death of Maria Lang in Augus t at the age of 26, a close personal family friend, we realized that is not necessarily the case. Within a week prior to her death, we had had an incident in which Jennie had been thrown from a horse, and for a period of five hours they thought she had broken her neck. We wondered if we were going to be called upon to make the same decision with respect to our own child. * (1 440) The living wills concept, I think, is one which is long overdue.

It is something that, by the way, can be enlarged to not only discuss the issues of final treatment when one is handicapped beyond measure, but it can also, I think, leave messages for those who are still living. In thinking about this with my own family, one of the issues I discussed was the fact that if I became in capacitated with something like Alzheimer's disease, I would want my husband to feel free to divorce me and to marry someone else.

My daughters were quite shocked when I suggested that I would want him to do this, but I said no, anyone who is that good at being a husband should indeed continue to be a husband and if not to me then to someone else. Those are the kinds of things that we can envisage within a living wills concept, where we can in tact tell those how we feel about our last hours, days, months and weeks on this life. The second private members' bill is The Patient Records Access and Confidentiality Act. This bill will settle a long-standing dispute that has left patients on the losing end.

Hospitals and doctors often treat medical records of individuals as the concern of everyone but the patient. If we are to treat the patient as the primary concern of the entire system, and indeed, the reason why the system even exists is for the patient, then we must end this absurd injustice and guarantee that patients have access to their medical records. We must also guarantee that the content of those records cannot be disclosed without the patient's permission. Our bill will accomplish these things, Mr. Acting Speaker, and we hope that all of our honourable colleagues in this House will support it.

Each of these Liberal initiatives is another step toward putting people first in our health care system. We in the Liberal Party are realistic about shrinking resources. We are also optimistic that Manitoba is capable of preserving quality health care for all Manitobans. As we all know, research and development and science and technology are keys to the future. A working group to include represen tatives from universities, government, labour and business would be established by a Liberal government to implement a plan for investment in the environment,

137 LEG ISLATIV E ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 1 0, 1991 health , sciences, manufacturing, com putin g technology and agriculture. The long-term benefits of jobs created would pr od uce many other economi c spi no ffs . Longstanding misconceptions about an unfriendly business climate must be dispelled. Manitoba has a solid work force and a body of laws that protect both labour and management. However, lack of awareness and mis understanding of laws and regulations that govern business can form barriers to investment and in fact barriers to job creation. The Liberal Finance critic, the member for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock), is therefore introducing a resolution calling for a review of proposed legislation and regulations for economic impacts. These would be reported to the Legis lative Assembly for consideration of their desirability. A good education is the fou ndation for a prosperous future for our children and for a prosperous economy. It is vital for the well being of all citizens of Manitoba to be guaranteed that our children and our young people prepare themselves to make contributions through education to the society in which they live. Uberals believe that all children have a right to a good education.

A Liberal government would ensure that standards are upheld and schools are held accountable for their expenditur e of government funds. We have long called on the government to review school division boundaries, a process which seems to be in limbo these days. We also called upon them to revise the funding formula to ensure equity. I must say that the recent formula does not ensure that equity. They speak, Mr. A cting Speaker, about taking from the rich and giving to the poor as if there were in fact some rich school divisions out there. The reality was that they took from the poor and they gave to the poorer.

At the same time, they offloaded further their responsibilities to the municipal tax base. It is not enough that we keep a quality of educational system, we must ensure that our children remain in school, and 30 percent of our senior high school students are dropping out. It is an unfortunate fact. lt is also very true that in addition to those who drop out many find themselves unable to attend post-secondary instituti ons, particularly as a result of the cutbacks to our community colleges. We have a student loan program, but student loans in dollar values have not changed since 19 84.

Students today are getting 60 percent in real dollars of what students received in 19 84. It is shamefully inadequate. In addition, many students are now finding themselves unable to pay back student loans once they graduate from institutions, because they cannot find a job. -(interject ion)- Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, the government is laughing on the other side of the House I think because some of them did find jobs and still refuse to pay back the student loans.

What we are talking about is the fact that because of very high unemployment statistics at the present time there are many young people graduating from post-secondary educational institutions who, in fact, are not able to find work. Yet within six months they are asked to pay back their student loan. It is very difficult to pay back a student loan when one has not found employment. That is why the Liberal member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) will be introducing a resolution to consider an income contingent student loan repayment program.

This would allow for loans to be repaid via income tax once the recipient is earning a reasonable income. These are fairer payment terms for students and indeed for taxpayers, because there is probably a better guarantee that those who can pay will pay. It will also make it easier for the student to pay, unfortunately, the greater percentage of their education cost, which is now being demanded by this government, and it will make the system more fair. Educating our youth is only one step to creating a better qualit y of life for Manitobans . The revitalization of Winnipeg's inner city is another.

The Liberal Party would encourage such an initiative. Progress has been made, but unfortunately the job is not yet complete. We must work to renew the Core Area Agreement and extend training programs and educational opportunities in particular. That is the genuine need. I noted in the Speech from the Throne that was the focus of the government. They finally said they would put their emphasis on training. Mr. Acting Speaker, the city has been prepared at this point in time to put their money on the line. We have not been able to get this government yet to indicate their money is on the line.

December 10 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 13 8 Single mothers and disabled Manitobans would not, unfortunat ely, agree they have made much progress. They must have their hope and some opportunities returned to them. Taking away their educational opportunities, in the case of both the disabled and single parent mothers on welfare, is not the way to do it. The Liberal Party recognizes it is not only the core that must be improved. The food banks of this province have never been so necessary. Why, in our affluent society, should women and children be forced to line up for handouts from food banks?

In a just and responsive society no one should be asked to beg for their food. Yet that is what thousands of Manitobans must do. • (1 450) Is it not time for a guaranteed annual income in this country, which would allow all citizens to live in dignity, an initiative that would remove bureaucratic dup lication and waste while at the same time assuring a decent standard of living for all? If the federal government will not do it, and it is clear they will not, then should we not do it in the province of Manitoba? One province alone provided the impetus for a national medicare program. Manitoba piloted Mincome.

Is it not time to put it back into effect now? We should begin by harmonizing our social assistance programs with other social services to reduce in effi cie ncy and dupl ication , a recommendation of the authors of the Mincome study. Choices of where our limited dollars are to be spent surely must reflect our values as human beings. Realistically, what is the point of the 30-inch super television set in a classroom when the child watching the video did not have breakfast before he or she went to school because there was no food in the hom e?

Do we need to have the mo st sophisticated electronic sewing machines in home economic classes when we know that children do not have such things in their homes, or should we have a more realistic view, one which says that we teach lo ng-ter m and not short- term skills, recognizing that the technology will become more sophisticated every month. There is no way we can keep up with the technology. The more important thing is to teach principles, values and processes which can be applied and adapted to a changing world.

Are we content to watch generation after generation live on and perpetuate the welfare cycle or are we to demand reform and ensure that this cycle is broken by the provi sion of training and a help into the job market? When will we as a province no longer force women to live on welfare because they do better on welfare than they will if they enter the work force? Surely, it is not reform-min ded to ask a woman to deny her childr en funding while she takes employment, and yet that is what we do.

Would we not be further ahead as a province to top her salary and allow her to take the employment opportunity so that she is earning more money working than she had on welfare and at the same time has her dignity restored? This is Liberal reform, reform that restores di gni ty, restores in cent ive and encour ages participation of all persons, not just the political elite. This is the kind of reform a Liberal government would have addressed in a Speech from the Throne, unlike the current idea-free government Speech from the Throne last week. There are other destructive cycles which must be broken.

Although domestic violence has been an ongoing problem, only recently has it been subject to government intervention. The escalation of violence against women and children is one of the great tragedies of our time. A Liberal government would act swiftly and decisively to stem this disturbing tide of violence. With the Pedlar report in hand we should proceed imm edia tely to implemen t a numb er of its recommendations, most particularly those aimed at getting to the root of the problem, societal attitudes.

One of the most important is a recommendation that the issue of domestic violence be added to school curricula from kindergarten to Grade 12 . I commend the member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) on the government benches for her recognition and therefore her resolution on the need for academic programs on domestic violence. Tragically, she does not have the ear of the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach), it would appear. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) It is important for children to be taught that domestic violence, indeed, any violence is not acceptable in our society.

Also, com mu nity advocacy response teams which would provide support and assistance to women and their children immediately after the police have responded to a call should be established. It is recommended that

13 9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 10 , 19 91 the teams be run under the direction of a women's shelter. More educational and counselling programs for men who are abusive must be established. While programs do exist, Mr. Speaker, the waiting lists are long. Jail sentences alone will not rehabilitate the abuser. While women and their children must be kept safe in the short term, long-term safety will only be secured by changing the attitudes and actions of the abuser. It is not only in the social fields that our reform attitudes must dictate our behaviour.

As politicians, we must be prepared to reform the system in which we operate. Mr. Speaker, we all know it becomes increasingly unpopular as the economic woes drag on, for politicians to talk about the Constitution. Manitobans are quite understandably concerned about their jobs and the economic security of their families, and so are we. Therefore, when we talk about the Constitution, it is not in pursuit of popularity. We do not talk about national unity and the Constitution because we think that is what voters want to hear. Other parties can base their strategy solely on what voters want to hear, but we will not.

We talk about the Constitution because it is a problem that must be solved once and for all. Even though its impact on people's daily lives are difficult to detect, its impact is real enough. We cannot have good government with a bad Constituti on. Our children will not thank us if we leave them to correct our cu rrent pro blems of national uni ty and constitutional turmoil. It is our obligation to solve them now. We Liberals have longstanding convictions about national unity and the Constituti on, and our first conviction, Mr. Speaker, is that the Constitution belongs to all Canadians.

One of the central problems of the last 1 0 years is that although no one would argue that the Constitution belongs to all of us, and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms made that even more clear, we still have an amending formula which empowers government leaders and their majorities in the Legislatures and the Parliament and no one else in the amending formula. The Constitution belongs to the First Ministers. • (1 500) A Liberal government would have sought to correct that, and that is why the Liberal constitutional affairs critic the honour able memb er for Crescentwood (Mr.

Carr) has put before the House a private members' bill and a resolution calling for a constitutional referendum that would be necessary to ratify any proposals for change that the First Ministers produce. Such a referendum will not strip political leaders of their responsibility, but it will ensure that they exercise their amending powers responsibly. It will confirm that the Constitution ultimately belongs to the people. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in order to give the people back their Constitution , this province must press for a national referendum to be incorporated as part of the constitutional amending formula or, at the very least, hold a referendum in Manitoba before any amendment is passed. H our First Ministers will not trust the judgment of the people on their own Constitution, they are in no position to be trusted themselves. We are prepared to extend our reform to our own operations. Should a constitutional package be presented to us in the Manitoba Legislature, our caucus will have a free vote.

The Constitution of our nation must be judged by each and every one of us on its own merits and not controlled by so-called party discipline. This is, ho wever, not the only political reform that must take place. Much of the silliness of this Chamber should disappear. The rules of the House much be changed. The liber al government would have actively pursued such reform. Partisanship has gone too far, and we all too often look like children fighting over our toys. Moreover, the public has never been more cynical about its politicians and our political systems.

Where have the honest politicians gone, the pub li c asks? What has happene d to the time-honour ed traditions of public service and the greater good? Well, we know that those principles are alive and well in all three political parties, but it is time to make the government responsive to the people it serves through reform. Our party has been calling for these reforms in the House, and our ethics critic is proposing that government appointments be ratified by an all-party committee.

This would not remove all patronage but it would, we believe, ensure that only qualified in dividuals were appoi nted to boards and commissions, because their appointments would be vetted through the Legislature. We introduced this resolution in the last session, and it did not surprise us that both the Conservatives

December 10 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 0 and the NDP jeered at the proposal. It was disappointing because it is the continued, blatant pandering of the Tories and the NDP that give Manitobans the right to question the motives behind government actions. Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, was a case in point. The Tories justified the inappropriateness of their actions by pointing to all the sins of the NDP. Two wrongs have never made a right. It is time for political parties of all stripes to clean up their acts and, therefore, we will continue to press for the reform of these activities. The member for St.

James (Mr. Edwards) will also be introducing a bill to prevent municipal and city counsellors from exploiting their positions for personal gain. Reform is also needed in our attitudes towards new Canadians. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the utterance from the members sitti ng in the Chamber are filled with the same kind of political cynicism that you see on the street every single day. Unless members of this Chamber are prepared to change it, then we will continue to have that cynicism. Reform is also needed in our attitudes towards new Canadians. Mr.

Speaker, I am very uneasy with the feelings being expressed by many about multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is what we are in Canada. Canada is a wonderful mosaic of all the colours, shapes and sizes of a human family. We worship in many different ways. We hold many different cultur al values, but above all we are Canadians and we are Manitobans. As Liberals, we would di rect multicultural dollars into a better understanding of ourselves through programs that focus on racism and its debilitating effects. We must rid ourselves of the stereotyping of new and old Canadians.

The day that any individual takes their Oath of Allegiance to our nation is the day that person becomes a Canadian, with no hyphens or prefixes attached. That Canadian shares with all of us the rights and responsibilities of our Canadian fabric, no more, no less than the rest of us. To encourage those of us with the richness of culture, to share with our friends and neighbours is not a weakness. It is, to the contrary, the great strength of our province and our nation. Let us not hide behind those who would speak of dollars wasted.

A Liberal government would be bold and pr ogres sive and demand that gr eater understanding and compatibility are the goals we have for multicultu ralism. We need to protect vulnerable individuals from being victimi zed by others who would take advantage of their desire to become Manitobans and Canadians, specifically unscrupulous immigr ation consultants. We were witness to a scandal in the last session which not only implicated some deceitful individuals, but also placed the government in disrepute. This government did nothing to protect the immigr ants and indeed seemed more intent on protecting itself.

They have given us no indication that they will do anything to prevent it from recurring. That is why the Liberal MLA from Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) will be introdu cing an immigr ation consultant registry act. This registry would protect against fraud and corruption. The Liberal Party also supports English as a Second Language programs, especially so that immi grants will have all of the opportunities available to make them productive citizens of Manitoba. We deeply regret there are fewer students now than there used to be.

We encourage the continued existence of their culture, but we also know they have to have the necessary tools, and one of the most fundamental ones is the ability to speak the language of the workplace. Other citizens of Manitoba have also been isolated. An incalculable disservice has been done to the aboriginal peoples of this nation. Let us work together with our aboriginal community to find ways to make them truly a part of our nation and not just grim statistics. Everyone knows of the living conditions of these citizens. No one is proud of their plight.

Until now Canadians have lacked the political will to change the direction. I believe we must work together to succeed in doing that. It is incumbent upon all political parties to take up their cause. We must start by ensuring their inherent right to self-gove rnment in our Constitution. Nothing else will do. Like all Canadians, no matter where they live, that right must be subject to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, because first and foremost, no matter where we live, no matter what language is our mother tongue, we must first and foremost be Canadians.

We must ensure that projects that flood their lands and devastate their land base do not proceed without assessment before dollars are spent on construction.

141 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 1 0, 1991 Megaprojects like Conawapa must be shown to be of benefit to all before they proceed. Political agendas all, unfortunately, in the past have been the basis for Hydro decisions. We must not make this next Hydro decision based on the political fortunes of any political party. Mr. Speaker, the government says the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report is not gathering dust. We just have to wait a little longer. That is what the minister said, but unfortunately, on the other hand, he tells us that some of AJI's recommendations can be implemented right away.

Well, right away has passed, and right now we are still waiting for even a hint of action. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, what a Liberal government would have done. lndeed, there are AJI rec omm en dati ons which cou ld have been implemented right away, and we would have gone beyond that obvious observation to take action. A Liberal government would have implemented the most basic recommendation on the very same day that the report was released.

On that day, we would have appointed an aboriginal justice commission and charged it with the mandate of advising, assisting and scrutinizing the government with respect to the implementation of the AJ I. This was a particularly wise recommendation and would have assured the public that the AJI would be an ongoing influence and would make a lasting contribution to good government and just treatment of aboriginals in society.

It would have helped to bring in a new era of co-operation and openness among the peoples of this province and replace the air of suspicion which sadly still hangs around the present government. The Liberal Party has introduced a resolution that will urge the government to do this. Unfortunately, the slogan "better late than never" is the most we can expect from the Conservative government. Another AJI recommendation, which a Liberal government would have seized upon immediately, is for a freeze on the disposal of all Crown land in this province until major outstanding land claims are settled.

Until these steps are taken, the aboriginal community cannot be faulted for its suspicion about the sincerity of the government of Manitoba and its desire to bring justice to the aboriginal people. Mr. Speaker, a Liberal government would have made it clear long ago that there will be no natural resour ce mega pr ojects without meani ngful agreements or treaties with all aboriginal peoples, because they need an iron-clad guarantee, and as Liberals, and I believe Manitobans, we are prepared to at last give it to them. There are other areas in which we would have acted immediately, Mr.

Speaker, and such actions would have made an important step toward a lasting justice. The opportunity for immediate action has now passed. Of course, it is true that many of the AJI recommendations demand more time and more serious debate, but the Conservative government, because of its slowness to act on the issues it has admitted could be dealt with speedily, has so far failed to dispel the air of suspicion. * (1 51 0) Seniors, too, Mr. Speaker, are a valued resource within our community. They possess the wisdom of experience. Unfortunately, many do not give seniors the respec t that they deser ve .

In many circumstances, seniors are the target of abuse from family members and friends. Again, one of their backbe ncher s on the gove rnment side has recommended this and recognized it in a resolution, but nothing in the Speech from the Throne. Mr. Speaker, my party strongly opposes abuse of any kind toward any human being. We must support our elderly community and must ensure that they can spend their years without worry and without fear.

While we see no action by the government to support seniors we will be introducing both an elder abuse resolution and a Pharmacare resolution, because many of our sen iors face financial, difficulties. A Pharmacare card system would allow them to pay only their deductible while eliminating the administrative delays in having to apply for the reimbursement to which they are entitled. We would prefer had these things been in the Speech from the Throne because then they would not be resolutions. They would be bills, and action would be taken to ensure an enhanced quality of life for our senior citizens. Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans and Canadians, and indeed most citizens of the world, have come to rec ogniz e the im portance of protecting our environment. It is government's role to channel the public goodwill to positive action. The production and consumption of energy are responsible for many of the world's environmental problems. We would have liked to have seen an announcement in the Speech from the Throne that showed this government taking action, taking the lead in its own operations in reducing the consumption of energy.

December 10, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 14 2 Energy efficiency audits should be conducted on all government buildings. We know that. Energy efficient lighting should be installed and energy efficient motors should replace many of the industrial motors currently in place in most office bu ildin gs. Co un tless studies have clearly demon strated that projects like these pay for themselves in energy savings, meaning that the environment wins and the taxpayer wins because less of their money is being spent.

The Liberal Party is also promoting changes to The Environment Act which do not require digging deep er int o taxpayers' pockets. Legislation protecting environmental whistle-blowers is being introduced by the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards). It will protect employees who report on environmental infractions of the companies they work for. Such legislation will encourage employees to come forward, but more importantly, it will encourage companies to be better citizens as they will know there is a greater chance of their legal activities coming to the attention of the authorities.

Once again, we will introduce beverage container legislation which we hope the government will finally take seriously. The economic future of rural Manitoba lies with the residents of rural Manitoba. They are the people who understand the needs and the strengths of their communities. Government must be in a position to assist not direct rural Manitoba. We congratulate the government on the implementation of the Rural Development Bond Program. We even congratulate the minister in putting into place the safeguards that we recommended -(in terjection)- and that is exactly, Mr.

Minister of Health, what the minister did. Another way for government to help these communities help themselves is to improve the communication and technological infrastructure of rural Manitoba. Instead of asking rural communities to come to the government for service, government should be taking the services to rural Manitoba. We need to look at upgrading our distance education programs so rural Manitobans can get the training in their commu nities to benefit those communities. Some action has been taken in this area, but much more needs to be done.

If people are forced to leave their communities for education and training, we know there is a lower probability of their return. We also know many will not choose to leave and therefore will be denied the opportunity. That is why the critic for Rural Development, the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), will be in troducing a resolution to accomplish that. Unfortunately, if it was a Liberal government yet once again we would see legislation in this area. The challenge facing government and the challenge that we mu st all take up is the revitalization of the farm economy.

Government policy has been concentrated on short term survival. The economic and climatic conditions have necessitated this survival mentality. We have not put suffi cien t resou rces in to the long term development and sustainability of agriculture. A Liberal government would have liked to have seen or would have introduced, if we had been government, programs which would upgrade soil conservation programs and put less emphasis on water drainage and much more on water storage. Research into new crops and new farming methods must be emphasized.

Most important, we would devise economic support programs that do not distort the markets or the farmers' decision on what crops they grow. These are achievable goals and one we should be all working toward, because if I became aware of nothing else at the GATT meeting in Ottawa at the concerned farmers meeting and the briefing we received, it was that even if GATT negotiations are successful there will be no genuine relief for 10 years. Mr. Speaker, in the prayer of St.

Francis, it states: • ... where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; and where there is sadness, joy." That Manitobans need a vision of hope, light and joy for the future is clear. What is equally clear is that this government has given up on finding it. What my caucus and I propose are some measures which we hope the government will adapt, use, exploit if they will, steal. We cannot support a government that refuses to act. We cannot support a government that wallows in inaction. We cannot support a government that has absolutely no ideas.

Above all, we cannot support a government that has no hope. Therefore, I move, seconded by the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr), that the motion to amend the Speech from the Throne be amended by adding, thereto, the following words: And this House further regrets that:

14 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 1 0, 19 91 1. this government's inaction in providing a sound economic climate and employment opportunities is resulting in unprecedented lev els of Manitoba ns joinin g the unemployment and welfare rolls; 2. this governm ent has failed to proceed in good faith to settle land claims as was recommen ded in the aboriginal justice report; 3. this government is doing nothing to stop the erosion of our education system and is offloading the tax burden for education onto the property taxpayer; 4. this governm ent is eroding our health services by focusing on cutbacks rather than on reforms like community health care, day surgery and preventative health measures; 5. this governm ent is eroding our social services by ignoring community concerns and by un ilaterally changing funding formulas and delivery mechanisms without consulting members ofthe community; and 6. this government's environmental strategy has been long on rhetoric and short on concrete measures like ensuring that existing regulations are being followed.

The refore , this governmen t has lost the confidence of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: Th e honou rable me mber 's subamendment is in order. • (1 520) Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, like many of my colleagues or all the members in the House, it is once again a pleasure to participate in the Throne Speech Debate. I was checking to see how many times I have had the privilege of doing it, and it is either 16 or 17 times. I think this is the 17 th time in a little over 14 years.

I guess part of it is because we had an election last September and we are already into our third session, so you cannot always go by the amount of years you have been here. I have to indicate, Mr. Speaker, from the first time on when I rose to speak in this House on the throne speech and I read this speech, very nervous and hyped up, that even to this day a certain amount of hype gets created every time you have the opportunity to get up here and debate. Even when we have the openings, I enjoy the pomp and prestige that goes with the opening of a session.

I like the gun salutes that we have, the role of the Lieutenant-Governor. It creates a certain amount of pride in those of us who participate in terms of participating in that kind of a function. I think it bodes well that we have this kind of performance with the time that we open the session. Mr. Speaker, over the years that a person has participated in this building and in this process, great speeches have been made in this House, some not so great. However, I want to indicate that I found it very enjoyable, the mover's speech this year. I think he delivered a very good speech.

Everybody has their own way of rating these, of course, and certainly the seconder as well. I would want to compliment him, the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) who carries dual responsibilities in our caucus as caucus chair as well as caucus whip. I note with interest every time we start a new session that we have new pages participating, and I sometimes wonder when they start off in this process, Mr. Speaker, exactly what kind of thoughts they must have as they see the process developing here and wonder what kinds of characters are running this province.

As they get to know the process, as we all have had to do over a period of time, I think it probably will be an en joyable experience. Most of the pages that I have talked with after they have served their term have found it an enlightening and, in many cases, a worthwhile experience. I want to indicate that it is always- the process that we go through never really gets stale because nothing ever remains the same. Sometimes- the other thing that I think about-the more we talk of changing things, the more they stay the same, although there are some changes that take place over a period of time.

For example, the thing I noticed in terms of changing, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that-l looked on the Order Paper yesterday and I looked on the Order Paper today, and we have 70 private members' resolutions on the Order Paper. It is mind-boggling compared to what we used to have. We used to have a handful of resolutions on there-and the bills, the amount of bills, private members' bills, that are coming forward. Just by the ones that were indicated by the Liberal Leader, you would think that

December 10 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 14 4 they were government. They have more bills on the Order Paper than the government has. I have no difficulty with the Liberal Leader's enunciating the things they would do and the things we should do. I mean, that is the normal process, but to take and fill up the Order Paper with endless bills, I think that takes away from the importance of the bills that maybe should be given consideration. When you have 30 or 40 private members' bills on there, all the members of this House know the operations and know that many of them will not be touched.

It will give the members who present them one chance that they can bring forward an issue and try and make some politics out of it, but as far as the potential for passing of these bills, it is very, very minute. I have to say that I was one of the fortunate ones who passed a private members' bill in this House, and it was with the concurrence of all parties involved.

The government of the day, whoever it is-and I was in opposition at that time-u nless you have the support of the government to bring these bills forward and pass them, they get one shot at it and hardly ever see the light of day again, but there are really not that many changes that have taken place. I listened with interest when the Leader of the Liberals (Mrs. Carstairs) lectured members here in terms of their conduct in the House.

At times, I think we probably all should look to ourselves and say maybe our conduct should be improved to some degree, but you know, the perception of the public in terms of how they view us as politicians, we have brought that on ourselves together with the media. The fact that, in my view, from the time that we brought television into the Legislature, things started going downhill a little bit. That is basically what the general public sees, is the performance during Question Period. Very seldom after Question Period do you have the media around.

They pick and choose what they want to write about after that, but all the attention is based on the 40 minutes of Question Period, and I think it leaves a wrong impression out there because then we all have a tendency to try and be actors. I think it takes away from some of the prestige that I think this position as an MLA serving in this House really deserves. I noted with in terest the Liber al Leader's comments about all the things she would have done, that they would implement immediately were they government. I can understand that, Mr. Speaker, having sat in opposition for six and a half years. It is easy.

It is easy to take and criticize and shoot from the hip and say this is what we wou ld do immediately, were we there. Unfortunately, I cannot really see the day, with all due respect to the Liberal Party, that they would be in government and be able to implement all those things they say now they would implement im medi ately if they were government. Mr. Speaker, that is the process in this House. We all have our roles to play, and we do that as capably as we can. I just want to make a little further reference about some of the debates that have taken place in this House, and there have been some great ones.

I can recall people like Sid Green. I even enjoyed the speeches of Russ Doern who had a different style. Everybody has their own style in this House when they speak, and there are some that I like to listen to more than others. You also had a person like Sterling Lyon who was a dynamic speaker. You might not agree with what he said, but he was a dynamic speaker.

I did not happen to agree with a lot of the philosophy that Sid Green spoke, but I thought he was a great speaker. * (1 530) My colleague and the dean of the House, Harry Enns-and we still have that privilege of listening to some of his great orations that he makes in this House and he has made some dandies. If anybody ever wants to check through the records of his speeches of my colleague from Lakeside- Han. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): No, do not. Mr. Driedger: He cautions not to, but there were some great ones-and many others.

I am not belittling anybody whom I do not mention by name, but there have been great speeches and great debates in here. I always made reference, and I speak again about Sid Green who was very capable at the time when I came in as a backbencher. I always said he could speak for 40 minutes about the head of a pin, and you would listen attentively through the whole process of his speech. When it was over, you did not rightly know what he had said, but you would really enjoy his speech. But he was a good speaker. It is not everybody's gift to be that.

14 5 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 10 , 19 91 Like I say, we all basically develop our own style and, surprisingly, in the little over a year since we had the election -you know, this is the Third Session-we have gotten to know each other, members of the opposition, government members. You start developing certain attitudes for each other-some positive, some not so positive, but I mean that is part of the process. Each time we have an election there are a bunch of new faces in the Chamber, and we learn to know each other a little better.

In some cases, we learn to like each other a little better, not always either. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have a few more comments I want to make on the throne speech. I would like to spend the balance of my time basically talking about my portfolio and the Department of Transportation. When we talk about the throne speech-and I have listened to quite a few and the way we all debate on it-by and large it is supposed to be a blueprint for the government of the action. There are a lot of fluffy things in there, generalities; the details comA more in terms of the budget which comes down later.

This is the third one actually since '88, but this is No. 5, I believe, the throne speech that we have. In the first Speeches from the Throne that this government brought forward, we basically realized that we were in a recession, going into recession. We talked of controlled spending, keep trying to provide the services that were needed by the general public, but we, by and large, talked about the harder times, holding the line. This particular throne speech is basically changing the attitude that we have as government, and, as our Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) has indicated, we are changing in terms of-we built the base, we now want to look forward to trying to have economic development and create jobs. That, to me, is the crux of the whole issue- jobs. Everybody needs to have a job or would like to have a job, I believe. Unfortunately, that is not necessarily the case. Mr. Speaker, we have talked so much. There has been so much talk about doom and gloom , especially in this Chamber here, and you have to sort of start thinking how bad is it in this country.

I had the privilege of listening to my federal colleague Jake Epp on Saturday speaking to a seniors group of 340 in the little community of Mitchell; he had just opened up a seniors centre out there. He actually spoke along the lines that I have spoken from time to time, indicating let us look back a little bit, let us look back 20 years, let us look back 30 years, 35, 40 years and see what has happened in this province and in this country over that period of time. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) makes reference to some personal experience that he has had and the health aspect of it and to a family.

I do not like to really do that, but I can recall when I was a youngster and my grandfather retired from the farm. At that time you did not have a big retirement package and invariably you had relatively big families, as was part of the Mennonite tradition I think. You know, there were big families and ultimately some of the family took over the farm, but by and large there was never a big money transaction so that the parents could retire comfortably financially.

So invariably the family got involved in looking after their parents to some degree, and they lived in a house- whatever they could afford at that time and needed some assistance to be able to look after themselves. You know, I can think back that far, which maybe makes me pretty old but I do not feel that old. What I am trying to illustrate is, there was no pension plan at that time. There was no proper hospitalization at that time. There was no senior's housing at that time, and people lived as best they could at that time, and the quality of life was not that bad.

The expectations of people were not that high, but the quality of life was not that bad. I can recall with fondness growing up, and I know that we were not affluent. There were seven of us in our family. We were relatively poor. We made do with what was there and, I think, enjoyed a relatively good lifestyle. Expectations have changed so much over the years. At that time even the welfare system was very, very marginal. So when we talk of doom and gloom at a time that this recession that we have just come through-and I hope we are starting to swing out of it. People say it was as bad as the 30s. Uh-uh, not so.

I mean, there is no person-by and large we have programs; we have welfare programs; we have hospitalization programs; we have housing for seniors; we have good programs. They are costing us a pile of money. All of us who basically work pay a lot of taxes to try and provide those programs, but do not ever say things were as bad as they were in the recession because we have a standard of living that is envied by the world. When we talk of doom and gloom all

December 10 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 6 you have to do is read the papers in terms of what is happening in other countries, and I am not referring to Russia alone. I am referring to many of the oth er countries, the despair, the unrest, the tragedies that are happening there. We are fortunate. I would like to think we are the most fortunate people in the world comp ared even to the Americans. You know, we have things that I think stand very positive in our stead and we should talk about those things. Why do we not talk about a positive attitude? We have come through some tough times.

Let us talk about the good things that are happening. Let us continue to strive, and this is part of the program that the government has put forward. Let us develop economic programs that will take and allow people to have jobs. I happen to have-o ne of my daughters is unemployed. I know the tragedy of unemployment. I know the tragedy of single parents. It is not simple. It is tough, but we have to create that environment.

I have very often said this and I think I have even said this in the House, if I had a million dollars, would I put it on the line to try and make more money, or would I just put it in the bank and just live off the interest? In order for people to invest money that they have, you have to create the environment so that they have a chance for a return. I have no problem with the profit theory, and, if you do not offer individuals, investors a chance to make money, why would they invest? If people do not invest, you do not have jobs. That is what it is all about.

I just want to indicate that by and large we have come through some tough times. The farmers are in a terrible plight. We realize that. To the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), I want to indicate that the programs that we have di rected towards the agricultural community- there are still people out there that are good farmers, have had chances, third-, fourth-generation farms that are not in the dire stress that some are. It is the younger farmers by and large that have the stress factor on them.

In some cases it is a matter of management, and we have to accept that and deal with that as well, as we do in the business community. Not everybody is a good business person. It is a very competitive world out there, and if you cannot compete properly and be a good manager, you might go broke. And this is what happened when things get tough. We have always said agriculture was the main thrust of this province, and once agriculture suffers, the ripple effect goes right through the whole society, and that is what has happened. I am hoping that the GATT agreements-the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs.

Carstairs) indicated even if the GATT agreements are successful it will be ten years before it turns around; I happen to think that it will not take that long. But what I basically would like to bring forward is that for all of us, I think, it is incumbent on us to try and talk on a positive scale because we need to have a positive attitude. If the positive attitude does not come out of this building and from us as leaders, where is it going to come from? Where is the enthusiasm going to generate from? Mr.

Speaker, the economic recession that we had-by and large I am still hoping that we have hit bottom, and just because we have hit bottom and started turning it around does not mean there are not going to be more people going broke. There are still going to be farmers who are going to be going broke. There is pain out there, but I would like to think that things are going to start getting better and move ahead. The economic recession that hit affected all parts, not just Manitoba. It has affected Canada, it has also affected everybody on a national scale, but even look at the Amer icans.

Look at what happened to Bush's popularity that right after the war was at 90 percent popularity, but because of the economic conditions in the States as well, he is down to what-forty something? So I am just saying that it is not just this province, it is not just this country, it is much broader than that. That kind of im pact has also affected the transportation industry which comes under my jurisdiction. I listened with interest when the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) spoke and berated the government and was critical of what was happening in the transportation industry in the province.

There is some merit to the comments that he made, and I want to indicate that there is difficulty in the transportation sector. There is. We have been subjected to deregulation in the trucking industry; we have trouble in the trucking industry through deregulation. * (1 540) We have a federal minister-and I want to be more specific about that because in Question Period it is very hard to deal with some of the questions that come in terms of how you deal with a broader

147 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA December 10, 1991 problem. There is not time to do that, so I enjoy the time that I have in order to expand a little bit on this. The federal minister, whom I happened to meet last week, Wednesday, indicated that he had given a mandate to CNR to be cost efficient, and that made me very nervous. I also met with the chairman of the CN Board, Mr. Smith, and by the time my conversation with him was ended, I did not have a comfortable feeling at all.

I raised the issues with him, and I will indicate to members here that the issues that I raised with him were nickel and dimin g-1 should not call it nickel and diming because it has much more impact than that, but how they gradually delete certain aspects of the operations at CN here in Manitoba. It is not unnecessarily a transference of jobs, there has been some of that, but what they do now, in my view, is they take and cut out a certain portion of the project of CN's operations, delete it, and then gradually maybe rebuild it in Edmonton. I raised that with him. I have raised these concerns with him.

I raised the concerns, and I want to spend some time on Churchill as well. I have to indicate that we consider ourselves, and I think everybody agrees, as a transportation centre. We export transportation services, whether it is trucking or whatever It is, trucking especially. I mean, I have always indicated that trucking or transportation is to Manitoba what oil is to Alberta, what potash is to Saskatchewan. We are an exporter of transportation services. This whole recession has affected that too. We have had trucking outfits going broke. I have major concerns in that regard.

However, I mean this just does not happen here, this is a wide-spread thing, so if the criticism comes towards the Minister of Transportation in Manitoba, that he is not turning things around, it is not quite that simple. I want to indicate to members some of the concerns that are coming forward. I have met with the Wheat Board. I have met with the Grains Commission. I have met with the federal minister. I have met with the chairman of CN. I have also had Shirley Martin out, who happened to co-chair the Council of Ministers' Meeting that we sponsored here in September. I have to indicate that I think Mrs.

Martin is a very intelligent minister. I have some comfort, because when we co-chaired, the federal minister could not make it, and Shirley Martin, who is the Minister of State for Trans port, respon sibl e for grain movement, herself and myself co-chaired that meeting. At that time, I extended an invitation to her to come out, and I would take her out to Churchill. Within two weeks, she responded, she came to Winnipeg, we flew out to Churchill, and we had a good tour.

We had good meetings with the people outthere, and I broached it to her this way: if you are going to be involved in the decision making, come and see what it is all about. The one assurance I had when we came back, I think she was impressed. She indicated to me that she would make sure that we were dealing with straight figures, because everybody has been giving us figures from all over the map. The enemies of Churchill play it one way; other people play it a different way. We have always said it is more cost efficient to ship grain through Churchill.

It is if you would operate it on the basis of shipping enough to make the port viable. If you ship 600,000 tonnes through there, then the port is viable, then the rates are different, but when you ship 230 as happens this year and they prorate that across the cost, then the costs are not cost efficient. I took the privilege of taking her down there, and I am hoping to set up a meeting, because there are further positive things that I think are coming forward in Churchill. It is my hope. We are in the process of trying to arrange a meeting with her to meet either here or in Ottawa.

I want to take my colleague the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Downey), as well as the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson). The three of us want to sit down and meet with her, maybe even the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), who also plays a role. We want to sit down and decide where are we going with Churchill. I want to raise this as a serious concern. I have suspicions the decisions which are going to be made in the next six months could affect Churchill very negatively.

I know that CN would like to get rid ofthe line; they would give it to us for $1 ; they would like to just get rid of that line. I know that Ports Canada has operated this year with a $2 million deficit, and that they are using that as a reason why they feel they cannot maybe open it up again. The federal minister has made not very comf orting statements about

December 1 0, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 148 some of the things the way they are operating. All these things are creating problems. I know that I am going to look for suggestions as well, but I certainly know that, together with my colleagues, we will make every effort to try and put the case forward on Churchill as strongly as we can. We have a problem; I sense we have a problem coming up. The federal minister-and one comment made I think just three or four weeks ago-indica ted that there would be a decision made on the future of Churchill before the next shipping season. Mr.

Speaker, the dilemma of Churchill did not happen overnight. It has been a gradual-and I have used the word-"str angulation" for many years, not just the three and a half years that I

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-4
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 4.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	17780a947949f1cf8863de315207e6ffcc27feaf

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