VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. MONDAY, MARCH 28, 1983 NO. 15

March 28, 1983 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape 689 Order, please! MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS MR ·-. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. JV -1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, han. members will recall that last year this Government established a new policy of early tendering capital projects. This policy was adopted in response to the recessionary economic climate and the effect it was having on employment 1or unemployment. Early tendering ensured that capital projects get underway as soon as the Legislature approved the allocated funding.

It also ensured that 1 as far as possible, capital funding approved for a given year was expended during that year's construction season. Thus, it would have the effect ·of boosting the Province's important construction sector and creating employment for Newfoundlanders involved in the construction industry. Mr. Speaker, this Go~ernment intends to proceed with.this policy during the current fiscal year and do everything possible to ensure that it is implemented to the fullest possible extent. Today, Mr.

Speaker, I want to inform the House of the capital projects which have been tendered to date, because we are even ahead of ourselves, and give an indication as well to those capital projects ready for tender call. Mr. Speaker, the first category, with a few exceptions, involves capital projects tenoered to date. There are five components to this category. A. Trans-Canada Highway Upgrading· t75/25: Transport Canadal. To date, Mr.

Speaker, Trans-Canada Highway Capital projects amounting to $22.6 million,including a $3. 9 million carry-over 1 have gone to. tender so far this year, thanks to the excellent work of the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) i546

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 689 JV - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Bear , hear! PREMIER PECKFORD : These projects include the carry-over which you can see when you go out on the Trans- canad~ it just barely got started last Fall from the Fort Motel to the Foxtrap access road and is ,.,orth $2. ~- million, Then we have other ones that have gone to tender- Paddy 's Pond Overpass, Roaches Line Overpass, Manuels River Bridge, Hanuels River Culvert, Gander/Glenwood, $1.8 mi llion, Bishop's Falls/Grand Falls $1.5 million, Carter's Road- Flat Bay, $4.9 million, Carter's Road (Grading) with is a carry -over, $200,000, Flat Bay- Fishells, $5.7 million, Roddickton carry -over $1.4 million, Roddickton 1547

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 690 NM- 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: again $1.9 million, the Roddickton Road,again, $1.8 million, for a grand total of $18.7 million, including a $3.9 million carry-over. Additionally, Mr. Speaker, the Department of Transportation will tender two other projects in May including paving from Pasadena towards Humbermouth- $1.1 million -and various bridge repairs of $200,000.

This brings the total expenditure on the TCH upgrading to $23.8 million. 'B', the second component of that first category that we are talking about 1 is DREE Transportation PrQ~· Most 6£ it is the Coastal Labrador agreement which we negotiated ninety/ten after a difficult hassle. In this area, Mr. Speaker, projects valued at $5.5 million involving carry-over from last year will be conducted during the current year.

They include: the Corner Brook Industrial Park Extension Access Road of· $1.7 million, a carry-over from last year; · pa ving the -·----- --- ~ - - Labrador South Straits Road, which will continue and be completed " for' $2 million; Will :iams Harbour - George's Cove of $600,000; the Lodge Bay -Mary's Harbour Road of $1.2 million, giving a total of $5.5 mi~lion.

I must remind people here, Mr.Speaker,the negotiations on the Lodge Bay - Mary's Harbour Road,which nobody wanted to get involved in except this government, and we pushed the issue, we thought that that road should go ahead;even thouqh you can do very little - - --. -- -- else on the Coast we were adamant when we were negotiating the components of this agreement that the Lodge Bay- Mary's Harbour

section be put in there. At least you could do that. It is very difficult to build roa.ds in other areas on the .. -- -· - ·- - -'\. hack -of these communities. But in the Lodge Bay- Mary's Harbour 1548

March 28, 1983 Tape No . 690 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: area you could 1 and whilst it costs $1.2 million it does give the people in that area a lo t better access than they would otherwise have. Mr. Speaker , remaining projects having a value of $2 .3 million will be tendered in June. They will include pavinq of the Corner Brook Ind ustrial Par k of $1 .8 mill ion , and grading the Red Ba y Road of $500,000 . C, the third component in this 1 is 100 · per cent 15 49

March 28,1983 Tape No. 691 ah-1 PREMIER PECKFORO: .Transport Canada financing, A~rstrips which we have to then take over and run, airstrips projects valued at $6.2 million, including a carry-over of $2.9 million have been tendered up to ·this time. Rigolet goin~ to · tender at $1.2 million, Port Hope Simpson $1.1 million, Davis Inlet carry-over to continue and complete $1 million, Postville a carry-over I from last year because it started then,of $1.9 million. Mr. Speaker, remaining projects valued at $2 million will be tendered in May and July.

They involve four airstrips maintenance projects at Davis Inlet, Postville, Port Hope Simpson and Rigolet, each valued at $500,000. The fourth component, Mr. Speaker, is Confederation Complex. Honourable members are familiar with government's decision ~o construct the new Confederation Complex whiGh is already underway. Mr. Speaker, construction valued at $10 million will be undertaken on the site during the current fiscal year, and this has already been tendered. So the Minister of Public Works (Mr.Young) is on the ball. 'E' ;st.

John's Regional Water Supply and Sewer System-Phase 1, Tenders have been issued already in the last coup~e of weeks for the construction of a water supply to the St. John's Northast Expansion Zone valued at $3 million. These projects represent a total value of $52.8 million which, for the most part, have gone to tender or have been carried over from last year. Now, Mr. Speaker, in Category 2, I want now to outline for hon. members the major capital projects which are now ready for tender call and will go over the 1550

: March 28,1983 Tape No. 691 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: next couple of weeks. They involve a total expenditure of $16.3 m~llion and they include: Clarenville Bospital $5.5 million, Labrador Constabulary Building , Labrador City-Wabush $2.5 m~llion, Bonavista Hospital $2.4 million, Labrador Water and Sewer Systems - L'Anse au Claire and L'Anse au Loup $1.7 million, (90/10), Forests Access Roads $1 million (90/10), The l-1arkland Clinic $1 million. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD : The Wooddale Nursery is part of our DREE programme of $1 million, Cartwright Medical Clinic DREE programme $500,000, Her Majesty's P~nitentiary­ Centre Block $500,000 and the Cottage Land Development Programme of $250,000. So that is $16.3 million there which is now ready for tender and. will go to tender quickly to try to do what we can with the money that we have at our disposal. Also under School Construction, Mr. Speaker, school construction will account for a significant amount of act~vity in the construc~ion sector this year. The value of 1551

March 28, 1983 Tape 692 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: school construction tenders including commitments carried forward from last year, projects recently tendered and projects to be tendered in the next several months amount to $30.5 million. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Additional capital projects, Mr. Speaker, which I have just outlined do not include two major areas of construction activity. They are government guaranteed municipal capital projects and provincial highways projects.

Twenty-five million dollars has been allocated for the estimates for municipal capital projects and we have allocated twenty million dollars for provincial highway construction. Decisions on these specific projects will be made over the next couple of weeks and then they _ will be tendered. Ad~itionally, Mr. Speaker, the new Institute of Fisheries and Marine Technology will have a further impact upon the Province's construction sector this year. .

The institute is ready now for tender call with planning having been already completed because the Province went ahead and did that planning over the last couple of years. Cash flow for the current fiscal year associated with this project is expected to be $10 million. Mr. Speaker, it is clear the provincial government is doing everything it can to boost economic activity and job creation in this Province. The impact which government related capital construction will have on the Newfoundland economy is very significant "indeed. Mr.

Speaker, the capital projects which have been tendered to date, as well as those capital projects ready for tender call, amount to $154 million in the next month or so. 15 •52

March 28, 1983 Tape 692 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: To those·who say we are not doing anything to help the Newfoundland economy and alleviate the Province's high level of unemployment, I say, Mr. Speaker, they would do well to look again. I happen to believe that $154.65 million represents a very substantial indication of our sensitivity to and understanding of Newfoundland's economic situation and I am proud of our efforts in this regard. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, we saw last year the immediate impact which our early tendering policy had on the construction sector by being able to·release capital projects as soon as moneys were voted by the Legislature. I have full_confidence, Mr. Speaker, that our early tendering policy will be similarly effective this year and will have the immediate impact on jobs and economic activity that so many Newfoundlanders are seeking. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY:. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. Thank you very much. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The han. the Leader of the MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my first reaction to the han. gentleman's Ministerial Statement is: Thank God for Ottawa. Ninety per cent of the funding just announced by the hon. gentleman is Ottawa money, money supplied to this Province-by the Canadian taxpayer by the Government of Canada and by the taxpayers of Canada. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us see what has happened here. What the Premier has done is he has put in one statement all the various statements that have been made by ministers in the last several weeks and several months. There is nothing new in the statement 1553

March 28, 1983 Tape 692 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: just made by the hon. gentleman. It is a desperation move, as far as I can see, to try to prop up the morale of his troops. It is a desperation move, Mr. Speaker, and the hon. gentleman must really 1554

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 693 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: be desperate to make a Ministerial Statement today to try to convey at least some semblance of good news because the government is under siege and in order to prop up the bankbenches on the government side of the House and to try to head off people taking to the streets because of the economic mess and the mismanagemen~ caused by the mismanagement of this administration. The hon. gentleman brought in this Minis~al Statement, a rehash of things that have already been announced, Mr. Speaker.

It would seem to me, Sir, that it also points up one very important thing and. I believe that you will find that the feeling on this particular point is widespread in this Province and that is how much better would things be in this Province if we had improved federal/provincial relations. Mr. Speaker, most of the money in the projects - MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The han. the President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL : I realize that the hon. gentleman loves to be apologist for Ottawa at all times and a~l places, Mr.

Speaker, but what the hon. gentleman is doing now is debating this statement given by the han. the Premier rather than making comments upon it. He is entering into the realm of general debate and that is outside the rules of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council rose on a point of order. I would just remind the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) that he may . have been 'straying a little from the Ministerial Statement, perhaps he should get back to comments confined to the statement. MR. NEARY: Well , Mr. Speaker, I will wind up 1555

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 693 MJ - 2 MR. S. NEARY: my few remarks bec~use there is really not much else I can say about the so called Ministerial Statement except that it is a rehash of things that we have heard before. But I believe it points up a very important matter in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and that is i.f \'le had an improvement in federal/provincial relations in this Province how much better would things be throughout Newfoundland and Labrador? And I believe that it is time, Mr.

Speaker, that Newfoundland politicians shake hands with Ottawa and the Ottawa politicians shake hands with the politicians here in Newfoundland and Labrador and that we all beco~e friendly Canadians, and once again attempt to work together in harmony and peace in the best interest oi this Province. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hen. the Premier. In view of the very serious statements that were made by the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.

Power) at a committee meeting there last week in connection with the future of the Bowater mill incorner Brook, I wonder, Mr. SPeaker, if the hon. the J' • Premier could tell the House and the people of this Province, · est:ecially the people in Corner BrookJ -· ·if the government intends to acceed to the wishes of the . people of Corner Brook and grant their request for a Commission of Inquiry into all aspects of the Bowater operations in Corner Brook and the logging operation that supplies the raw material for that mill? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. 1556

March 28, 1983 Tape 694 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, in meetings that I held with the leaders of the community on the West Coast, both in Corner Brook and the Bay of Islands area some time ago,I told them we would let them know in a couple of weeks our decision relative to that matter. I would say that in another two or three days or so we will be in a position to indicate to them what our position is 0n that request. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Would the hon.

Premier tell the House if any of the discussions he had with the Bowaters people ·he has come to the conclusion that the shutdown of No. 7 machine may place the rest of that mill in jeopardy? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, nothing in the discussions that I have held with Bowaters has indicated that by closing down No. 7 puts the rest of the mill in jeopardy. Wh~t the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (~r.

Power} and I have said to the people of Corner Brook in a meeting that we had with the Mayor; --and the leaders of the whole commll:~ity over there,from Deer Lake and Pasadena, the whole Bay of Islanda area, the City of Corner Brook itself and other leaders a~ the two or three or four meetings that we had .was that it is our view that down the road,in order to ensure that Corner Brook remains viable , and not only Corner Brook but most of the mills in Eastern Canada , there is going to have to be a new industry-federal~provincial government agreement for further m~d~-rnizatio~-; ·· .!and that those four machines that are now in the Corner Brook mill can perform well and produce a good product that can be sold on the market.in a competitive way over the next five, eight, ten years.

But somewhere beyond that point we have to start ' "'- 1ssr · ··

March 28, 1983 Tape 694 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: planning now for continued technological improvement to keep them at the leading edge of pulp and paper technology so that they then still would be competitive beyond the ten year period. But nothing in what Bowaters has said to us indicates No. 7 in anyway jeopardizes the long-term future of Corner Brook. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon.

Has the hon. the Premier been able to determine in any of the discussions that he held with the Bowaters people why .the down-time in the Bowaters operations is not shared amongst all the mills in the whole Bowaters operation rather than borne by the mill in Corner Brook? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: The primary reason 1 as the Leader of the Opposition must know -he is a bit late in asking this kind of a question, this is the kind of question that was posed by us to Bowaters months ago . and which the people in Corner Brook have been posing to us even months ago .- the major reason from Bowaters' point of view is that most of the other mills have an ownership by newspaper, and therefore that newspaper has committed to it the paper from the mill that it partly owns.

Therefore it is going to ensure that its investment is covered in its own mill before it starts taking paper from another mill that it does not have any shares in. So the main reason for not sharing the down-time as given 1558

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 695 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: by Bowaters is because they do not own the other mills like they own Corner Brook. They own Corner Brook outright and there is no newspaper chain which has an interest in the Corner Brook mill. Most of the other mills that Bowaters are involved in in North America have other newspaper chains as part owner of the mill. And obviously that newspaper is not going to vote to see its own mill go down~ it is going to vote to see that its own mill stays open.

And that is one of the problems we have had in trying to persuade Bowaters to share the down-time in Corner Brook with its other North American mills. MR . NEARY: MR. SPEAKER . (Russell ).: Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr . Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, has the han. gentleman been able to determine if it is true that the Corner Brook mill has the highest profit per ton of all Bowater mills? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not have that figure on the top of my head, Mr. Speaker. I would have to see what period of time is involved.

Is it for last year, the last two years, you know? MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: The last five years. There are lies, damn lies and statistics, Mr. Speaker. So, you know, you can get into a great battle over figures all you like, and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary} can imply same in his question. All I know is simply this 1 that · we took the position and still take the position that Bowaters should persuade some of its partners in its other mill help share some of the down-time in Corner Brook. They have refused to do it. Now we cannot order 1559

March 28, 1983 Tape No, 695 S'D ~ 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: them to . do i:t. We have al.so indicated to them that we want . them to continue to contribute to silviculture and all the :z::est of it and we a:r;-e continuing our battles with Bowaters on all those fronts ·, But whether the Bowater mill made X million dollars- in 19.67 or 1976 is not at iss.ue. What is -at issue now -is today and tomorrow. The fact of the matter is today they cannot sell all of their pape r.

One of the reasons for that is the Bowater organization in North America took a corporate decision a number a:£; ye .a,r -s: ago t.o dedicate the paper from Corner Brook . to o:f;fs .hore mai,'ke .t.s, When I. say 'offshore markets' r mean mai.'ket~ - oi.J.t:;;. -i,de a:t; the United State and some of those markets are i,n areas that have really had a s~rious economic recession. t think of countries in Centra .l Amer ·ica and South . America 1 Argentia, Brazil, Mexico to name three countries ~ch are almost bankrupt now an~ are bei.ng b;a;i:J ,ed out by the International Monetary Fund.

S'O the question i:.s not aqout how much money was made yeste:z::day or th.e day b.e;forer th.el'1e is no way you can get .tha .t ba .ck 1 the question i.s: tod,ay and tomorrow. And today we have had mee .tings: with _ :ao~tex;~ -, and we have pushed them to try to get them to do TI\Ore ma .rketing efforts on behalf of Corner arock. They did get some extra markets, by the way, for Corner Brook which ~epb it open longer in the last few weeks than it would ~ve been open. They are continuing to do that a;nd we a,re continuing to monitor the s-ituation. So the ;t:"eleva . .nt question is how can we ensure that 1560

' March 28, 1983 Tape No. 696 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: is how can we ensure that Corner Brook remains open today and remains viable tomorrow and that is the policy that we are committed to to ensure that those two things happen in Corner Brook . MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The non. Leader of the Opposition. A supplementary in connection with silviculture that the hon. gentleman mentioned in his answer to my previous question, is it correct then to say that Bowaters have no money to spend on silviculture this year? MR. SPEAKE R: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No.

I am pleased to say that as a result of our arguing and arm twisting and pushing and shoving and fighting on behalf of the people of Corner Brook, Bowaters are going to spend $600,000 or $700,000 this year on silviculture,

whereas before they were going to spend zero. So we have been able to change their minds on the silviculture thing and they will be spending about $5 • .. •million on capital besides that. MR. NEARY: -· . -·-· Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER:· MR. NEAR Y: A final supplementary, The han. Leader of the Opposition. In view of the serious nature of this matter, Mr. Speaker, and the fact that the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr .

Power} let the cat ou t of the bag, and in order to restore confidence and faith in the community of Corner Brook, especially as far as the Bowater qperation is concerned, could the han . gentleman - set a date 1 tell us what date he expects to make an announcement on the commission of enquiry? PREMIER PECKFORD: I have already indicated to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) that we will be making a decision on that in the next couple of days . I cannot zero 1561

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 696 NM- 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: it down. It will be tomorrow or the next day. It depends just on scheduling meetings and talking to ministers, but we have already had a number of discussions on it. The other thing is the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is saying that the Minister of Forest Resources and ~ands (Mr. Power) let the cat out of the bag: he did not.

Long before the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands made his comments, I made the same comments in Corner BroeR to all the people of Corner Brook, both on television and radio~ and before all the leadership of Corner Broo~, the city council and everybody.

I indicated to them that the big thing that we have got to try to do in Corner Brook-the past is past and while we can argue over it and take our own points of view · and most of mine woulq be a lot different than the ones that Bowaters have taken, that is not goinq to help today and tomorrow and to secure the jobs - what we have got to do in Corner Brook is what we have got to do in .Grand Falls and Stephenville,the same thing, to ensure over the next ten years that we continue to modernize those plants so that they are competitive with Finland and Sweden and especially competitive with some of the plants in the Southern United States·where they can get a cheap wood supply.

And that is what we have to do. Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Northern Ontario have to do the same thing,and that is why I think we are going to be successful in getting the Canadian Bulp and Paper Association, plus the federal government and ourselves and the other provincial governments together to sign a more 1562

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 696 NM- 3 P~ MIER PECKFORD: long-term modernization agreement which looks at the realities of the situation we are goi ng to be faced with in the pulp and paper industry, as we are in every industry~ you have got to be technologically advanced, and to that ·end this governl!lent is conunitted and we are going to ensure that Corner Brook alwa ys has a pulp and paper mill by ensuring the long -t~rm future of that place with. technological advancement. SOME KON. MEMBERS: Kear , hear ~ MR . SPEAKER : Mountains. MR. WARREN: The hon . member for Torn gat Mr .

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins). Sincethe minister brought in .his mid -term review on November 18, 1982, can the minister tell the Kouse 1563

March 28, 1983 Tape 697 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: if he has received very many complaints from retail business in the Province, in particular concerning the changes in the sales tax regulations? Have there been many I complaints from business? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, in the early days there were some complaints specifically over some difficulties with the way their cash registers were set up and that type of thing, and I believe, myself, that there was a bit too much made of that in the media in parti~ular.

I say that because we had some of our inspectors go out to just check and see what was going on and we had reports back from them and it really did not seem to be as bad as one would have otherwise detected by reading newspapers. But in more · recent times, I have not been made aware of any substantial body of complaint and I think that if there were a sub- stantial body of complaint, the officials in the department would have let me know. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker ·, a supplementary to the minister.

The form that the retailers or the cashiers are supposed to fill in for exemption on children's clothing, has the minister taken another look at this form, this exemption certificate that is supposed to be filled in by the cashiers? And if he has taken another look at it, is he going to try to simplify the form? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. We indicated that we would be seeing how other jurisdictions handle this matter and, of course, we did look at the methods they use 1564

March 28, 1983 Tape No . 697 EC -2 DR. COLLINS: prior to bringing in the form. We said that we would continuall y monitor the situation~d be in touch with other jurisdictions to see how they handled it, if they had any new wrinkles we would be glad to look at them and try to put them into our form. I do not think we have in actual fact modified it as yet, but we are continually looking at it and we are quite willing to accept any good suggestion that m~ght come forward. MR . WARRE N: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): The hon . the member for Torngat Mountains . MR. WARREN: Now, Mr.

Speake+, it was on November 18th. that the minister brought in the economic recovery programme and since then there has been, ~th all respect to the minister, quite a bit of confusion on the part of the retailers about completion of this form. Knowing that the Boarq of Trade has gotten information from other provinces and that a submission was made by a

section of the Board of Trade to the minister suggesting Newfoundland use a form like the Manitoba Government uses - and I will table a copy of that form, Mr. Speaker - I am wondering why could not our Province use a form similar to the 1565

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 698 Ah-1 MR. WARREN: form that Manitoba is using? All that form requires is the name of the item, the price, the name of the purchaser and the address,

whereas our form is overly complicated. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that this year we are talking about trying to entice tourists to come to Newfoundland for the 400th anniversary. I am just wondering how complicated is it going to be for -tourists to purchase clothing for their children as one of the requirements on our form is the MCP number? MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I really do not think this form is complicated and I say that because I have on occasion had to fill in the form because I just did not have my child's MCP card with me.

And if I can fill it in without too much difficulty, I am sure most people in the Province can fill it in without too much difficulty. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: Thank you. The other point I would like to bring out is that the hon. Minister of Cultur ·e, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) tells me there have been more enquiries from tourists - and I think this would be backed up by the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor) who is responsible for Tourism - there have been more enquiries from prospective tourists to come to this Province for the 400thL anniversary of the landing of Sir Humphrey Gilbert this year, more enquiries about this year than there have been in our history. So I do not think it is going to impact negatively on tourism. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The member for Torngat Mountains. 1566

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 698 AH -2 MR. WARREN : Mr . Speaker, did I hear the minister correctly say that he purchased goods for his child without an MCP card? MR. SIMMS: No. MR. WARREN: My next question to the minister is that in most provincesfue retailers are given a rebate on the sa~es tax they co~lected . I think it could average anywhere from one half a per cent up to, I think, one province a 3.5 per cent rebate on sales tax collected on behalf of the government.

With all the regulations and all the cost involved to the retailer to collect and rebate the retail sales tax, has the minister given any consideration to a rebate to the retailers for collecting taxes for the Government of Newfoundland? 1567

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 699 MJ - 1 MR. SPEAKER (RUssell) : The han. the M~nister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there was a comm~ss~on such as the han. member mentioned in place in this Province. I think up until 1977. 1 In the Budget of that year that commission was withdrawn,I believe just purely from a reven~e point of view, the extra revenue was requ.l,red.

S·.ince that time each Budget we have reviewed the possibility of reinstituting that commission, We have reviewed it quite sympathetically becausethere is a certain amount of administrative work that each vendor has to put into filling .in the forms and so on and so fo:rth,and we have :rev~ewed it sympathetically from that point of view but to date we have not felt that we could reinstitute it. If we did make outlays there 1we Glearly would have to offset that by getting revenues in from some other source and it was just a case of not finding a practical source 'for offsetting the commissions that might be paid.

MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, ! have a question for the Minister of Education (Ms.

Verge) • My question to the minister is centered around the Student Aid regulation~ and my question is, in view of the tremendous concern that has been demonstrated by post-secondary students throughout the Provipce in reaction to the changes brought in by the government concerning the Student Aid regulations, I wonder now in view of that concern whether the 'government have decided to make any changes, whethe~ they have decided to make the Student Aid now more generous than the changes had made'it? So, are there any changes by which the government intends to make it more generous, more in line 1568

!>larch 28, 1983 Tape No . 699 MJ 2 MR. T. LUSH: with the economic and financi~~ needs of the students of this Province? MS. L . VERGE : l>1r. Speaker . MR. SPE~~R (Russell) : ' MS. VERGE: The hon. the .Minister of Educati,on. Mr. Speaker, the demonstr~tion of concern on the part of post -secondary education students in our Province about their Student Aid Programme has been conducted very responsibly. Friday a couple of thousand students from Memorial - MR . E. HISCOCK : Four thousand. MS. VERGE: - University and the two colle9e? in st.

John's -gathered fn front of Confederation Building and conducted themselves very responsibly, were polite in listening to what I had to say on behalf of government. What I told the students, Mr . Speaker, and what I will repeat here today is that because of the serious economic problems facing the provincial government, proble .ms that have been worsened over the last couple of years because of the recession and also because of the mistreatment by the federal government ,we have been left with no alternative but to change our . Student Aid Plan to bring it in line with those in other provinces of Canada. 1569

Harch 28, 1983 Tape No. 700 SD - 1 MS. VERGE: The inc -rease in the borrowing requirement, the change in the loan/grant split, is a definite~ However, th~ proposals for changing the eligibility criteria are subject to review after we receive input from the students. I told the students that two of the proposals for the eligibility criteria, specifically, will be reviewed.

They are limiting to five years or ten semesters of undergraduate study as the periods for receipt of provincial government grants and also the arrangements for students presently studying outside the Province programmes available within the Province. But I have to stress again, Mr. Speaker, that the total impact of the proposed changes to our Student Aid Plan will have no affect whatsoever on the students in our Province who have the most need. And the percentage of our students getting aid who are in this most needy category amount to about one-third.

They are students who all along were borrowing the maximum from the Canada Student Loan Programme and getting the maximum from our provincial government in the way of grants. Those students will not be affected. A single student in I that category will still be able to get $1,000 per semester from the provincial government as an outright grants that does not have to be repaid. The total aid available to the most needy students will not be diminished, the total grants paid to them w·ill not be any lower than, they are now.

And for the other students who have less need 1 they will be left in, at worst, the same position as their counterparts in other provinces.- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MS. VERGE: - provinces that are richer than our~. SOME H.ON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. LUSH: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 1570

March 28, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Terra Nova. Tape No. 700 SD - 2 Supplementary, the han. member MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, is the minister telling han. members, telling the House, that there will be no change in the loan ceiling, that there will only be a change in some of the regulations? Because it was my understanding that students wanted the loan ceiling changed, that they felt that the loan ceiling was now too high and it was going to drive them in debt, Mr. Speaker, drive them in the hole, it was going to ruin their chances of getting an education.

So the minister is now · saying that the loan ceiling will not be changed, that it will only be the regulations and, if so, what regulations·? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, I have outlined very carefully and thoroughly the proposed changes to the Newfo .undland and L~brador Student Aid Plan and I have to emphasize that these changes are not going to have any effect on the poorest students, on the students who themselves ,because they have not been able to get a Summer job,cannot contribute much. or anything to the cost of their study 1or whose parents cannot contribute much or anything to the cost of their education. r would like to illustrate this, Mr. Speaker, with t~e case of a twenty year old student living away from home whose parental income is $27,Q~Q 1571

March 28, 1983 Tape 701 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: a family of four, and the student is unable to find a Summer job. In that case, Mr.

Speaker, the student at present for one semester . or ·half an academic year of study 1 may borrow $575 from the Canada Student Aid programme, then get from the Provincial Government a $1,000 outright grant and go on to borrow another $325 for a total amount of aid of $1,900, $900 loan, $1,000 grant from the Provincial Government, Effective September 1, 1983,under the current proposal the same student will have to borrow $900 off the top to get the $1,000 grant and end up with the same $1,900 in aid, will end up with the same $1,000 outright grant from the Provincial Government. No change.

And a third of our students having the mo~t need are in that category, Mr. Speaker, and will not be hurt, will not be affected, will not get any less free money from the Provincial Government. And those most needy students, Mr. Speaker, are the ones who most deserve our support and who will continue to get our full support.

Students having less needs will be put on a par with students in Nova Scotia, P.E.I., New Brunswick; Manitoba, Alberta, provinces richer than ours, Those other students will continue to have access to the same number of 1 dollars, it is just that they will have to borrow more, the same as their counterparts elsewhere in Canada, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, there is something not rig?t about ~this.

There is a great degree of misunderstanding that comes from the other -side, This morning in Committee, for example, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) said 1 and I quote, and I have written it down here, in talking about the Student Aid programme; he said that a graduate under the new regulations brought in now,that a person graduating under 1572

March 28, 1983 Tape 701 PK - 2 MR . LUSH: these new Student Aid regulation will have a higher debt load when he graduates . And,he said, "He will carry a gr eat debt load into the future.' MR. HODDER: Now is that true? MR. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, is that true? Is that correct or is it not that a student entering the programme today will carry a great debt load? MR . SPEAKER (Russell): The ·hon. Minister of Education . MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, for the one-third of our Province 's students getting aid who are in the most needy category,who all along were borrowing the maximum available under the canada Student Loan programme, the answer is no, no more debt load 1 no chan ge. MR. LUSH: Tell the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) that. MS . VERGE: The same amount of Provincial Government free money grants or allowances , the same amount of loans, the same debt load. The answer is no . So the other students who could be categorized as middle need or less need , the answer is yes.

The same dollars,more debt,less Provincial Government grants, the same 1573

.. March 28, 1983 Tape No. 702 EC - 1 MS. VERGE: as their fellow students in the Maritime Provinces, Manitoba and Alberta. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon . member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: My question is for the Minister . of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms). The majority of students in our Province would prefer not to get any grants, not to get any allowance or not to get any loans but prefer to have jobs, particularly in the Summer and during the holidays.

In view of the economic situation and the high unemployment among our youth between the ages of fifteen and thirty, what programmes is the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth bringing in this Summer over and above the normal hiring practice of each department, _ the parks, the Department of Education and temporary jobs in Confederation Building and so on, what job creation projects will the minister be bringing in for this forthcoming Summer so that some students can make money to get into university and post-secondary education institutions without getting loans? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, in terms of my own department, we will be providing the same kind of encouragement as we always have in re~ent years. We will be hiring somewhere in excess of 125 students around the Province to work in parks during the Summer. That will create some employment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: With regard to these 125 jobs, whether it be this administration or any other administration, 1574

March 28, 1983 Tape 702 EC -2 MR. HISCOCK: these jobs would be there. We are more concerned about the thousands and thousands of students who are corning out knowing that there are no jobs, knowing that there is no opportunity. They want to further their education and be prepared for the promised land of Hibernia and in this regard they want a little bit of help but not loans. I would like to ask the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.

Simms), since from the Loto tickets in this Province we bring in $3.1 million in revenue on Provincial, Atlantic and Super Loto1 is the minister making representation on behalf of· his own departinent to the Premier and to Cabinet that this money be allocated and earmarked entirely for youth job creation 'projects th~s Summer? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: The han. the Minister of Culture, Mr. Speaker, I am constantly making representations to the Premier, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) and my Cabinet colleagues to get additional funding for additional projects and I have had a considerable· amount of success. If the hon. member had been in attendance this morning to debate the estimates of my department, he would have clearly un~erstood what is transpiring with respect to our efforts to provide employ­ ment for Summer s~udents. In addition to that, I should point out to the han. member that the responsibility for the revenue fr~rn Lata is not mine, it comes under the 'jurisdiction of the Minister of Finance. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. 1575

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 703 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han ·. member for Eagle River. MR~ HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, one cannot serve two rnasters,and the problem with these Estimate committees is this morning I happened to be with the Department of Finance and of course I asked the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) the same question, whether he was going to create any job projects for the youth of our Province, and I got the answer from him no; when I asked the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge} that,the answer is no; to the Premier, no.

So obviously I would assume by directing it to the Premier there will be nothing over and above normal ~iri~g practices for our students this corning Summer. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we are doing all doing all we can to provide as many jobs as we can to all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians regardless of age, but more particularly we appreciate the problems that we have with youth une~ployrnent both in Newfoundland and across Canada and we will do all we can i~ our power to put as many young people to work as is possible within our means.

We have been doing that ~or years. we will continue to do it, Mr. Speaker. We fully recognize the problems that the youth have and especially those who want to go on to post- secondary institutions and so on, and their financing requirements. So we will do all that we can within our power. I would say if you took dollar for dollar and see what we are doing in this Province in that regard it could match up proportionately.with any province of C~nada, or any jurisdiction. We are not ashamed of the job we are doing, Mr. Speaker, in this regard and we will continue to do it as much as we can in the future. 1576

March 28, 19.83 Tape ~o . 703 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER {Russell): Order, please! The time for Oral Question Period has expired . I would like to welcome to the galleries today, I do not have all their names , a delegation from the South Coast, from Grand Bank, Fortune and St . Lawrence to meet on a ve .ry important matter to them, namely 1 of course,the fisheries . I would like to welcome them to the galleries today. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ANSWE'RS TO QOEST IO~S FOR WRICH NOTICE HAS · BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table -an answer to a question asked by the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock}, on Order Paper Number 60. It has already been tabled and made ·public years ago. 15 77

i. March 28, 19.83 Tape No. 703 NM- 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY: r.1R. MARSHALL: Motion 3. Motion, the hon. the Mini ster of Public Works and Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Public Works And Services Act, 1973 ," carried. (Bill No. 32) On motion, Bill No . 32 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On moti on that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 1578

March 28, 1983 Tape No . 70 4 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, plea~e! MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: Th~ hon. the Leader of the Opposition . Mr . Chairman, this morning I had the honour and the privilege of attending a meeting that was convened by the Fishermen's Union and the joint town councils on the Burin Peninsula who brought together representatives from all the communities in Newfoundland who are dependent upon the deep-sea fishery. ~t was a great honour and a privilege for me to be there, Mr.

Chairman, to see these people brought together for the first time so that they could put up a united front to try to bring about some resolution of their problem. The administration have failed~to date to lay upon the table of this House a plan to deal with restructuring the processing sector of the fishing industry. We have raised the matter, Last week we raised it, I believe, Monday , Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and we failed to get a response from the government or to find out what plans they had to deal with the restructuring of the deep-sea fishery, the processing sector.

This morning over at the Holiday Inn,at this meeting, I was happy- my colleague, our spokesman c;>n .fisheries was with me, we were very pleased to be able to support a resolution that was - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. NEARY: No, they are going down to meet with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) just in case, That was one of the decisions we made this morning. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEAR Y : Mr. Chairman, if I could have order, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: The hon. gentlemen on the other s~de know that there is a meeting on in the Cabinet room to discuss this resolution,because this morning it became very evident 1579

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 704 MR. S. NEARY : that last Thursday when the provincial M}nister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgart) and the Premier went to Ottawa all they did was muddy up the MJ - 2 water. A deci.sion, 'Mr. Chairman, was about to be taken - MR. STEWART: That i·s not true. MR. NEARY: That is true. - a decision was to be taken la$t Thursday on an amended version of Option No. 3, the one that I outlined in the House last Thursday. MR. J. MORGAN: I canno:t;. listen to you I have to go to a very important meeting instead, to mee~ with all the delegations conoerned. 1580

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 705 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: The minister sho~ld try to undo the damage that he did last week. Now the amended version of Option number ' three had to do with a combination of companies comprising of Nickerson's, The Lake Group of Companies, Penny's and Fishery Products. Now, we hear the Provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) .making statements like'option would spell death for the Peninsula fish plants~ Now, you would not know but that was the only option on the table, the minister knew the difference.

The minister knew that Option number three was on the table, which seems to be the one that the majority of delegates at this meeting, this morning, were in favour of • . Now, this was a negative statement that was made by the minister. Anyone can make a statement saying they were against something. What the minister should have told the people in these communities was what he was in favour of, what he stood for. This morning he was forcedtfor the first time, to· vote for an amended version of option humber three. We do not know yet whether the Premier is going to sign that Resolution or not.

The minister could not give,us a straight answer this morn~ng as to whether or not the Premier would go along with his agreeing with the Resolution .and wqether or not the Premier woul~_agree to put up a united f!Ontso that we could persuade the Cabinet Committee in Ottawa that we were united down here in our request to have option number . three implemented as amended. The amended version, of course, is that no plants would close and that all the plants would reopen.

This is something that we have been saying here in this House for the last two weeks and we have not been able to get the message through to the administration -- -- - _r.-- -·-- ·-.. '. ·-·- ------ -- .. _ until this morning. It took the union, the plant workers, the trawlermen ·and the Newfoundland Federation of Labour, the clergy, the M.P's. in Ottawa, Mr. Simmons and Mr. Tobin,to 1561

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 705 JV - 2 .... - MR. NEARY: persuade 'the .adrninistration here to go along with an amended version of option number three. This is the first time that they have done that. 1582

March 28,1983 Tape No. 706 ah-1 MR.NEARY: that. All they did la~t Thursda~ when they went up to Ottawa was to muddy up the water, they brought in all kinds of new issues that would take years to unscramble , to unravel. Now, Mr. Chairman, that we have everybody on the same trend of thought,we hope that success is just around the corner. Well,what the meeting pointed outthis morning, Mr. Chairman, more than anything else and 1 as I said in this House earlier today, there is a consensus of opinion, a consensus of opinion throughout this Province that - MR.TULK: There is a radical change.

MR.NEARY: That is right -there should be improved federal/provincial relations, that this can help a great deal to resolve the crisis in the fishing i~dustry, it can help a great deal to resolve the crisis in the offshore, it can go a long way to resolve the difficulties between the provincial government and the federal government on the financing of the development associations in this Province. So, Mr. Chairman, I think it is time to forget blaming things on Ottawa, blaming things on the province of Quebec and blaming things on the province of Nova Scotia.

I forget who started this row between the federal and I provincial governments. This message came through loud and clear this morning, we should forget whose court the ball is now in and f;rget.,political one-upmanship. It is time, Mr. Chairman, that both parties started off with a clean slate and for the sake of all the people of this Province , .for the sake of those who are unemployed, for the sake of those·who cannot cope with the h~h cost of living, 1583

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 707 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: for the sake of those who cannot cope with the high cost of electricity in this Province, for the sake of our students who are now out demonstrating in the streets against the increases in student aid in ' this Province , for the sake of all the people, for the sake of people on social ass~stance who cannot make ends meet, for the sake of all the people of Newfoundland and Labardor, Mr.

Chairman, we should follow the example that was set at the Holiday Inn this morning when this group of fine Newfoundlanders were brought together and put up an united front, passed a resolution that ottawa and the provincial government should shake hands, forget who started the row, forget the one-upmanship, that Ottawa shake hands with Newfoundland and Labrador and that Newfoundland and Labrador shake hands with Ottawa and that we all become friendly Canadians once again, trying to work together in unity and harmony and peace, Mr. Chairman.

This should be the primary and immediate objective of this administration and indeed of all politicians of all stripes,both in this Province and in Ottawa, Mr. Ch~irman. Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and,indeed, Mr. Chairman, all Canadians are fed up with t~e ongoing game of political squash .

The only ones who are getting squashed are the ordinary citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador - the man in the street looking for work and the man down in Burin and the woman t,rying to get their plant open and the people out in Corner Brook who are worried about whether or not the mill will l'ast ' for any length of time in that city. It is time, Mr. Chairman, that this nonsense of squabbling and bickering and , animosity between the two levels of government ended now once and for all ." Mr. Chairman, if it continues, if the squabbling continues I would not 1584

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 707 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: at all be surprised but in due course the people of this Province will take to the streets . That is how serious they are taking this situation, Mr. Chairman. So I am hoping that the number one priority 1585

March 28, 1983 Tape 708 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: of this House, and of this administration will be to try to bring about good will and improved relations between the provincial and federal governments _ so that we can take advantage of the federal programmes, so we will not be lea~ing millions of dollars on the Ottawa table every year, · Mr. Chairman.

I hope that the Provincial Administraeion,especially the Premier,will be big enough to lay aside partisan politics in the interest of getting projects started in this Province and shake hands with Ottawa, and that Ottawa will be prerared to do the same thing, and with a handshake, Mr. Chairman, get on with the business of governing this Province, and get some projects underway to try and help alleviate and reduce the suffering and the unemployment in this Province at the present time. Mr.

Chairman, I know the administration, the 'hon. gentlemen on the other side will get up and they will attempt to lay blame and they will try their little political games again, but I make this ~tatement today, Mr. Chairman, ,in good faith, in all sincerity. I know the hon. Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall), the ·President of the Council is there with a little silly grin on his face; he has no intention of trying to patch up the deteriorating relations between the provincial and federal governments.

I know weat they want to do, I know the game they are playing; they want to carry on certain issues in the next federal election, Mr. Chairman. It ~s · getting us nowhere .. These little political games are getting us nowhere. We are not taking advantage of all the federal programmes that are available, other agreements are -expiring, are breaking down. Like the other day we saw the bickering- a ministerial statement in this House, and then an announcement by Mr. Rompkey. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. member's time has ela;:;>sed. 1566

March 28, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : DR. COLLINS: a pathetic performance. Tape 708 PK - 2 The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, that was really I almost feel sorry for the hon . Leader of the Opposition. It was really so out of character ,th at here is someone who wants to spread peace and sweetness and liqht and harmony in federal/provincial relations, when the whole time, whenever the Province dares to raise its voice for quite a legitimate wrong , the Leader of the Opposition (.Mr. Neary) and our friends opposite lash into the government and say you are being obstructionists, you are being nasty, you are being anti-Canadian, give in, give in, give 158 7

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 709 MJ - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: it away. That is the way Newfoundlanders should behave, give everything away, succumb to what the federal government says. Do not raise your voice in protest. Do not demand. Do not look for your rights. Do not do that. If you do that you are being a bad Canadian, a bad Newfoundlander and it is a terrible thing to do. Well, now,why has the Leader of the Opposition taken a different attack now? It is so obvious. He has been groping around trying to find out what he should say about the fisheries.

He has no idea whatsoever~ Of course,the Liberal Party has no idea what to say about the fisheries. MR. DINN: They had a different line in December month. DR. COLLINS: Yes. They say one thing one time and an absolutely different thing another time. So having lost every possible point they have made about the fisheries and knowing that after hard ~lug~ing and persistent a~plication to the federal government and pushing our case forward and putting in logical,rational briefs time and time again, finally we. are getting the message through to Ottawa up there that you cannot r~n a ·fishery which is in two parts, one

part contolled1by the province ·and that only the processing part,which is totally dependent on the supply of fish from the waters, obviously, and the other part run, essentially by an organization that is 1,500 miles away, and that is the main part of the fishery, the harvesting sector, ,because'that,obviously,has to precede all the other parts. We are finally getting that message through to the federal government that there has to be a co-operative approach, there has to be a conjoint management approach to the fishery . You cannot break it up into two parts and say that this will be totally federal and this will therefore be 1588

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 709 MJ - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: provincial but,of course,dependent on the federal side,and expect to run the thing. And as the hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) points out, the Burin Action Committee has welcomed the Provinces' proposal. They said that our proposal is a very logical one. Indeed ,it is the only proposal that makes any sense whatsoever. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) has been sort of whizzing around trying to find something that he can hang his hat on.

The only thing he seems to have hung his hat on so far is that somehow or other we should forget about the fishery insofar as the people of this Province are concerned, insofar as the workers of this Province are concerned, insofar as the fishermen of this Province are concerned and we should only concentrate on saving the companies . Now, even that is a total, 180 per cent, about-turn from what he said a little while.

Because, a little while ago he said, ''Let the companies go. ' So one month, 'Let the companies go' 1 the next month, 'Save the companies.'But what about the people of Newfoundland, a large proportion of the population ~hich depends on the fisheries? That is where this government has always put its emphasis. That is ' . where we have got to try to get the message through time I and time again to the federal ~overnrnent. Andi think we are finally getting it through 1that it is not that the fishery is for companies and it is not that the fishery ' is for ·markets, the fishery is designed to assist 1589

.11arch 28, 1983 Tape 710 EC - l DR. COLLINS: the rural aspects or some of the rural aspects of Newfoundland and that is where the emphasis h~s to be. The fishery will pro~per where it supp~rts, where it gives employment, where it gives a good life to those parts of rural Newfoundland which aredependent on it. That is the starting point. You have to start with the parts of rural Newfoundland which depend on the fisheries and then go on from there.

You do not work back from the companies and say, 'What is good for the companies, somehow or other we will try to make it good for the fishermen and the people who work in plants in a few of the communities around the Province.' You do not work back that way. We are finally getting the message through to the federal governrnent,and, of course, once the federal government begins to agree with our very reasonable, very rational position, then the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) has to throw in the sponge and say, 'Oh, well, now let everything be sweetness and light.' I mean, it is like taki~g candy away from a kid 1 trying to argue against the Leader of the Opposition's position. The other point that the Leader of the Oppositiqn is pushing, of course, is that if the federal government makes a statement about the fisheries and we raise a reasonable objection to it, we are the worst in the world. However, if we put our position forward and our posi~ion is not agreed to by the federal government, we are squabbling and the people are fed up with us.

We have to cave in, we have to throw our very reasonable position out the window and accept whatever is presented to us from Upalong. Well, I think the people of the Province now are seeing that these debating points do not cut any ice any longer. They know that the credibility of the Opposition's position on the fisheries, if there 1590

March 28, 1983 Tape 710 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: is a position - I have not been able to detect any position so far, but if there is a position on the fisheries by the Opposition, the people of this Province now know that it can safely be ignored and they are content, they are pleased, they are indeed overjoyed. As the Burin Action Committee has said, they are overjoyed that the position and the plan that this Province is putting forward with regard to the fisheries is finally being accepted,because the conditions of the times demand that sensible solutions be accepted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: DR.

COLLINS: Up to now it was all very well, you know, you could say, 'Well, let us give them U.I., let us put them on unemployment insurance; that is good enough for the Newfoundland fishery except for the height of some season or other. But once you get into a recessionary period,when every dollar has to be watched, you can no longer afford to go with that sort of policy. Now .you have to sit down and try to find rational, reasonable policies and programmes which have some expectation ~f having in ·them long-term solutions.

So in some• respects the hard times we have come to are going to pay off in terms of benefit for our fishery, and I am only too glad to see it. 1591

I March 28, 1983 Tape No. 711 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: Other than that, I do not know what other points one might respond to in terms of the Interim Supply Bill. We have not really gotten into the details of it, I suppose, but the Supply Bill is a matter of giving the government the authority to spend for that two month period until the main estimates come down. rt is·just really to allow government to carry on until the House decides in its widsom whether or not it will accept the main estimates.

I think that we have talked this out, in my view, to the degree that is necessary, and r would now hope that the resolution and the bill related to the resolution will be accepted and then, perhaps, the House can get on to either the main estimates, if · it so wishes ,or perhaps get on to other matters that are worth discussing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, r was just listening to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins} and he gave a couple of enlightening statements.

One was, of course, the reaction of this side of the House every time there is a squabble with Ottawa, and the way that he put it was 'a little squabble: and the people on this side jump up and say, you know, we should not be having this squabbling, we are all for harmony and peace. Then, he go~s on to say, 'give it away', we want to give it away.

Well, you know, that phrase is wearing . thin now with. the people of this Province.Because there is one th ~ng,for sure, they realize about this government, about this T?ry government, and they are beginning to realize this now 1 that this Tory government does not give away anything. They do not give away anything, Mr. Chairman, no .t even education. They do not give away education, they do not even give away health. services. 1592

March 28, 1983 Tape No . 711 SD - 2 MR. LUSH : There are a lot of things, Mr. Chairman, that this government does not give away and the people of this Province are fast coming to that conclusion now. We do not have to worry about this government giving away anything,be it ~ducation, health services, public services , municipal services. Mr . Chairman, they do not give away very much. What we are now seeing, Mr. Chairman, in ~~e Province of Newfoundland and Labrador after close to a dozen years of Tory reign what we are now seein~ and we are just beg inning to see it, is the execution, the enforcement , the enactment of Tory policy that we have not seen before. It has taken them 1593

March 28,1983 Tape No. 712 ah-1 MR. LUSH: this long, Mr. Chairman, to wipe away all of the Liberal policies that were abroad in this land • It has taken them this long. It has t.aken them ten to a dozen years to bring in their own policies. And now the people of this Province are seeing what Tory policy is all about. They are beginning to see it for the first time, Mr. Chairman. They are beginning to see-the .enforcement 1 the enactment and the execution of pure,unadulterated Tory policy. That is what they are seeing, Mr. Chairman. It took the government that long to wipe out Liberal policy .

It took them ten to twelve years to wipe it all out. And now, Mr. Chairman, we can see, the people of Newfoundland can see for themselves that this government does not give away anything. There is no question about that, Mr.Chairman, they do not give away anything. We have seen increases in just about every area of government involvement since this government took over. And what they are now doing is using the down-turn in the economy as the excuse to bring in Tory. policy, to bring in regulations, Mr. Chairman, affecting education in this Province, post­ secondary educatio ·n.

They have. moved now from what was a policy 1 o~ what was regarded as a policy and a philosophy of education,in:a sense, being a right. Education, Mr. Chairman, was viewed in Newfoundland for the past number of years as being a right, a right for everyone. And now wha~ has happened, of course, is that it is looked upon as a privilege. Education is now a privilege , a privilege for the few , for the rich and the wealthy and the elit~. That is what we have done with education. And, _ Mr. Chairman, this nonsense of the increase in Student Aid not going to affect the students of this Province is pure nonsense.

It is going to affect the students, it ~s going to harm many students in this Province. It is going 1594

March 28,1983 Tape No . 712 ah-2 MR.LUSH: .to puta financial hardship and a financial burden on many, many students throughout this Province . And, Mr. Chairman, that is an example , that is just one example of Tory policy , of what Tory policy has done to this Province in the last ~en or twelve years . They are now using the economy, the down -turn in the economy as an excuse, Mr . Chairman, to bring i~ Tory policy . So we are seeing the full enactment, the full enforcement of Tory policy for the first time,and the people of Newfoundland are beginning to see; they are seeing an escalation, Mr .

Chairman, all along the way in their services. And one wonders what the reason beh~nd a couple of statme nts in the Budget was, what 1595

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 713 NM- 1 MR. LUSH: the reas-ons behind these statements was when they talked about the increases in student-aid .. It has already been alluded to that this was to bring student-aid more in line with that of other areas of Canada. And in the Budget Speech. there was some specific reference to the fact that in two areas we are taxed the lowest in Canada, with respect to municipal services and with respect to school taxes. And one wonders, Mr.

Chairman,whether that again was not a gentle hint to municipalities and to the school tax authorities to bring these areas in line with services in other parts of Canada,with respect to municipalities, and with respect to school taxes. Otherwise, Mr. Chai~an, what was the purpose of mentioning these two items? Mr. Chairman, I can assure you there are many people in Newfoundland today who. .are not at all pleased with what is happening in the area of municipal taxes. And that is not to say that Newfoundlanders do not want to pay for their services-, Mr. Chairman.

There are a ~ lot of people not happy with what is happening in school taxes. That, a~ain,is not to suggest that Newfoundlanders do not want to pay for their educational services. But, Mr. Chairman, we cannot compare all of these services in Newfoundland to the level of services in other parts of Canada. We cannot make these comparisons. We have a different economy, we have a different economic base. And it is for these reasons-, Mr. Chairman, that we cannot raise these levels of taxation to the same level as they are in other parts of Canada.

And it is for these reasons that we cannot put our student-aid programme on a par with that in other areas of Canada. It has already been pointed out that our students have a more difficult time in terms of cretting 1596

March 28, H83 Tape No. 713 NM- 2 MR . LOSR: employment, it has been pointed out that we have the highest cost of living in Newfoundland, and all of these reasons, Mr. Chairman, are reasons why our student-aid programme should be kept at a more generous level than that in other parts of Canada, and not put down to a lower level . Our students do not have the same economic opportunities in this Provin ce. They have more diffi culty in terms of getting employment , they have to pay more, Mr .

Chairman, for all of the things that they purchase, and for these reasons we should be keeping our student -aid more generous. So, Mr . Chairman, there is no question about it, that the people of this Province are now beginning to see, a.re now beginning to learn first hand that this governm ent gives away nothing . 1597

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 714 SD - 1 MR. LUSH: That they know, Mr. Chairman, that they know. And they can look around them and see the increases in municipal taxes, the increases in school taxes, the increases in fuel and oil. They can see all around them, Mr. Chairman, that this government does not give away anything. They can see that in just about every area of government involve­ ment there has been an increase - increase in taxes, increase in services. In just about every involvement, Mr. Chairman, there has been an increase - increase with respect to moose licences and all hunting permits.

There have been increases, Mr. Chairman, in everything from getting a rabbit permit to getting a permit to burn your garbage. And that is what has happened and the people of Newfoundland are beginning to see that. An increase, Mr. Chairman, in everything from birth certificates to death certificates. And the people of this Province are beginning to see, Mr. Chairman, that this government­ they are right, they are right, they are not going to give away anything ·. But, Mr. Chairman, in the process they are doing a lot of bungling.

They bungled the offshore; they have muffed that to the extent that the people of this Province are utterly fed up with listening to this government mouthing off and prattling and saber rattling about the offshore. Mr. Chairman, we, on .this side of the House, are not concerned about squabbling with Ottawa as long as we see that we are ge~ting something out of it. We are hot concerned with arguing with . Ottawa. I expect that if we were there we would have our share of arguments as well. But, Mr. Chairman, I tell you, we know how to negotiate.

We know what the word means,and we would certainly ensure that Newfoundland got the best 159 .8

,. March 28, 1983 Tape No. 714 SD -2 MR. LUSH: deal. Mr. Chairman, this nonsense, as I have said, of a giveaway, it is running thin and it is time that hen. members realized that. The people of Newfoundland are getting sick and tired of hearing about a giveaway. They are asking now, they want to see,this hen. crowd do something, Mr. Chairman. They want to see some action, they want to see some productivity and they do not want to see this constant blaming, this constant laying on the shoulders of the Canadian people the cause for all the economic problems and all the economic woes of this Province. Mr.

Chairman, it' is time that they stood up like men, it is time that they stood up in man fashion and started doing something for this Province rather than squabbling and prattling and saber I rattling. It is time that they did something, Mr. Chairman, it is time that they did something. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward}: Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time has elapse4. · MR. LUSH: Already? Did Mr. Chairman say I had some time left or it was up? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member' s time has elapsed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR •. CHAIRMAN: Does the hen. gentleman have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS : No. MR. CHAIRMAN: No.

The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. SOME HON. MEMBERS: H.ear , hear. 1599

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 715 NM - 1 MR. DINN: Mr. OJ.ainran, every time the han. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) gets up to speak .it drives me to rising in the debate and talking sensibly about some of the things tnat he apparently cannot seem to talk sensibly about. Unemployment in Newfoundland is the highest in Canada. It has been the highest in .canada for years. we have never been able to get the unemployment rate down to any reasonable/ normal rate, ·never been able to qet it down to the Canadian average.

We were well on our way to getting it down to the Canadian average, we got it down to 13 per cent in 1980, but then we: had a national energy programme ·, then we had a new federal budget, then we had a recession, not only in Newfoundland but in Canada, in North America and throughout the world. Mr. Chairman, because we had a recession the unemployment rate started to go up again. But it went up aqain all over. It went up in Canada. The unemployment rate, for the han. member's information, in February, in ~oundland, was disgraceful, it was 20.9 per cent.

Nobody can really stand in the House as Minister of Labour and Manpower and say that that is great, that is wonderful, we are doing a good job. The fact of the matter is,the unemployment rate in Canada, in l982,went up by 42 per cent, in Newfoundland it went up by 29 per cent. N::w nobody thinks that that is great, but the fact of the matter is, that Newfoundland, with respect to other parts of Canada 1 is doing reasonably well within the economic situation that we have today. MR. SIMMS: Yes. True. MR. DINN: Forty-~ per cent in Canada it ~t up by, it ·went up by 29 per cent in Newfoundland.

Not good, but it is better than the Canadian average. MR. WARREN: Which was the worst Province? MR. DINN: Does ·, the han. member have a question? 1600

March 28 , 1983 MR. WARREN: MR. DINN: Tape No . 715 NM- 2 Which was the worst province? The worst province in Canada, from the point of view of increased unemployment, was Alberta 5.4 per cent versus 4.8 per cent ,for example, in British Columbia, the Canadian average 3.6 per cent - that is February over February_- the Province of Ontario, 3.8 per cent and here, in Newfoundland, 3.6 per cent . So you have to look at thin~s in relative terms. The hon. member complains about unemployment.

The hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr.Lusfil gets up and gives a great dissertation abo .ut the unemployment situation in Newfoundland, yet he is against a local preference policy that we put in place for offshore. Now,it only employed 1,409 Newfoundlanders at peak last year. The hon . member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) is against tha:t. He is not for local preference. He says, "Well, everybody should have an opportunity. We have got to be good Canadians and give everybody an opportunity to have these jobs." He is against local preference. He thinks that is a good thing,for Ottawa to have control of the offshore.

Well, Mr~ ~. if Ottawa had control of the offshore the offshore would be a disaster area. 1601

March 28, 1983 Tape 716 EC - 1 MR. DINN: For sixteen years, Ottawa presumably thought they had control of the offshore. We had no regulations here and no Newfoundlanders worked on offshore rigs. We had a fe~~ jobs on a few of the Sedco rigs that were built in Halifax,but none of the other rigs would hire Newfoundlan~ers or,indeed, other Canadians. So, -Mr. Chairman, we brought in regulations in 1979 and from that point on we have gotten some employment in the offshore and we hope to get some more employment this year.

There are a projected nine to ten rigs that will be working offshore this year, and if you multiply 200 by nine or ten rigs - if there are ten rigs, of course, you are going to have about 2,000 Newfoundlanders working offshore because there are about 200 per rig offshore and on shore directly related to that offshore activity, the supply vessels, the seismic vessels and the related employment on shore. So you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

You cannot get up in this House and complain about the unemployment rate in Newfoundland and then from ' ~e other corner of your mouth, talk about the fact that you do not agree with local preference offshore. You have to have it one way or the other. If you agree that we ·need more jobs in Newfoundland, that we have .to get some value out of our resource, you have to agree with local preference because that employs Newfoundlanders, that brings taxes into the treas~ ~d that allows us to carry on with educational programmes,. health programmes and so on. So, Mr.

Chairman, it is nice for the hon. member to get up in his place and talk about unemployment and talk about the fact that we do 1602

March 28, 1983 Tape 716 EC - 2 MR. DINN: not have ·enough dollars to provide the educational requirements and the training needs of all of our people,but then out of the other side of his mouth he says he disagrees with local preference or Newfoundlanders working. MR. HODDER: There is nobody listening to you, boy. MR. DINN: The han. member need not worry about who listens to me when ! speak. The han. member is scared to death that somebody will find out that the Opposition is totally against local prefe!ence in the offshore. The han. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) is totally against it.

The han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is against _ local preference in the offshore. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. DINN: in the offshore. MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: You are against local preference Just because you say so? The han. shadow member for Labour and Manpower -we might have a change in policy here now, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: a question? MR. DINN: Would the han. gentleman permit I certainly would permit the han. gentleman to have his go at a question. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: Is the han. gentleman aware that the Government of Canada that brought home the Constitution, the Parliament of Canada, put into the Constitution a clause, a provision for local preference hiring in 1603

March ~8, 1983 Tape 717 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Newfou~dland and Labrador? Is the hon. gentleman aware of that? A Liberal government up in Ottawa. MR. SIMMS: Why did they put it in? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Labour .. . .... ~ - - and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I -would be delighted to answer the hon. Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary) question. Yes, there is a provision in the constitution - MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: Oh, I see. Who put it there? - tha~ was repatriated,because the hon. Premier went up and made sure that that was put into the constitution. MR. NEARY: Oh, I see! SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. DINN: That is why it is in the constitution. The hon. ~eader of the Opposition stood in his place in this House and is against local preference in the offshore or anywhere else. PREMIER PECKFORD: Shame! Shame! MR. DINN: He does not want Newfoundlanders to have jobs. He .does not want the government to collect some taxes so that we can pay for education and training. He does not want us to have a good policy on the fisheries. Mr. Chairman, 1·- the hon. Leader of the Opp~sition gets up and talks about policy ~n the fisheries.

Well, you heard him last Thursday and Friday do a complete flip flop. His former, former, former, former, former Leader got up and told them all to burn their boats, ahd he got up here in December 1in this House of Assembly,and said let · the fish companies go, let them all die, and then we will pick them up for a song. PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, shame! MR. DINN: Well, Mr. Chairman, that is a great fisheries policy to have. 1604

March 28, 1983 '!'ape 717 PK - 2 MR. DINN: Then he talked about the poor communities . MR. TULK: (Inaudible). MR . DINN: Now, the hen. Fisheries critic from Fogo (Mr. Tulk) is chiming in. He cannot get up and speak in the House of Assembly. He makes a fool of himself when he gets up to speak. But there is the Liberal Opposition - that is the policy for fisheries from the Liberal Opposition, printed in The Daily News of November 23, 'Let the fish companies go ', Mr. Chairman.

And the only other policy that I have heard in the last twenty-three years was from the former, former, former Leader - the hon. · gentleman who is now the Leader of the Opposition went in and genuflected to him every day - and his policy wa's 'Burn your boats' . Do not have any local preference in the offshore, you might give some Newfoundlanders some jobs. So we have ten rigs out there, 2,000 jobs. Oh, we cannot have that. We cannot have Newfoundlanders working. And yet the hen. members can get up and say, What is the government doing for unemployment in Newfoundland? Well, Mr.

Chairman, when we try to do something we have hon. members opposite getting very excited. The hon. member for Port au Port (Mr . Hodder) - MR. NEARY: What are you doing? ·-.MR. DIN N : - got up in this House and talked to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) about what is he going to do about the plant in Piccadilly? And when he got some reaction, did 'he ·get up and thank the Minister of Fisheries? No, no. MR. MORGAN: No. MR. DINN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition got up and said~ What are you doing about Burin? What are you doing about Ferineuse? MR. NEARY: What are you doing? MR. DINN: Well, Mr .

Chairman, things will unfold. And the hon. Leader of the Opposition need not worry when it does 1605

March 28, 1983 Tape 717 PK - 3 MR. DINN: unfold the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) will suck back and reload again as he usually does. MR. SimiS: Ask him to tell you about the $tandin .g ovation he got this morning. MR. NEARY: grasping today. MR. DINN: Boy, I will tell ·you, you are really Yes, I would like to hear about - when the hon. Leader of the Opposition gets up to speak now I would like to hear about the standing ovation he got this · morning. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Yes, yes! MR. DINN: The Burin Action Committee is delighted. The Province's proposal welcomed by the Burin Acti .on Committee with respect to fisheries. 1606

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 718 ~iJ - 1 MR. J. DINN: The han . the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) did not get - MR. N. DOYLE: He holds P and P in the washroom. MR. L. SIMMS: The Minister of Fishery (M;r. Morgan) did. MR. DINN: He gets all of his information from Johns, whether it is the John in Halifax, or John Doyle or John Shaheen or John Davidson. And he is apt to get up here in the House any day now with another affida vit from any old John. The han. the Leader of the · Oppo .si t.i,on will jump up in his place now in a minute and run out to the john and come back with some more information for the han.

House. Butnobody in Newfoundland is listening to the han. the Leader of the Opposition • . Nobody in Newfoundland believes that we should let all the fish companies die and go into the ground and close · all the communities. Nobody believes that. There is nobody in this Province, to my knowleqge, believes what the han. the Leader of the Opp 'osi tion says . Every time he gets on TV our stocks ~o up about 10 per cent . So, Mr .

Chairman, I would recommend to the Leader of the Opposition that if he wants to allow for some progression in the Liberal Party, if he has any interest in that rather than in h~mself ·­ or the people of the Province - he would stay off TV. He is making a complete fool of himself. Now, Mr. Chairman, with respect to negotiations - MR.. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! Order , plea;:;e! has elapsed. MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: The han . the minister's time Your time is up. Too soon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 1607

_l March 28, 1983 Tape No. 718 MJ ~ 2 MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. the member :!;or Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr •. Chairman, I have never seen a member making such a fool of himself as the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) just ma,de of himself a few minutes ago. Mr. Chairman, the minister,for five or seven minutes,spoke about the local preference policy. If I were the minister I would not blow my horn too loud.

Wait until the Royal Commtssion is finished on the Ocean Ranger and we will find out about the local preference policy that this government has instituted. Already some Newfoundlanders have found out about it and in a very hard way too, Mr. Chairman. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) toda,y, in response to some question I asked him about the tax system that this government has implemented,has said that he received very little ·complaint from businesses.

However, I am pleased to lay on the table of the House a dra'ft copy that. was submitted to the ·minister way back in the last part of the 1982 year and ~here on Page 1, the beginning of the third paragraph, the first sentence says, 'It is unfortunate that the changes to the retail tax regulation have caused considerable hardship to ma.jor retailers in the Province.' 1608

March 28,1983 Tape No. 719 ah-1 MR. WARREN: The Board of Trade have submitted this proposal to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) asking him if he would make some changes to the retail tax structure. Many retailers are faced with increased administration costs, additional clerks etc. for calculating the sales tax by hand,and bearing the brunt of public outrage at the long lines at the cash registers.

Now, Mr.Chairman, talk about a hypocritical government that comes in with such tax regulations and says that there is no public concern,or there is very little public reaction to the tax structure that has been implemented by this government. It was only just Saturday past, Mr.

Chairman, when I was in one of the stores and a lady was buying - I cannot believe it really, there was a lady buying an item for a little child about ten years old, The child was there in the store with the lady and the saleslady knew that the clothes were being bought for that particular child 1 but because of gover~ent regulations ... that saleslady, the cashier 1 could not accept the word of the customer, even though the child was in front of her she had to fill out the form.

The lady' did not have an MCP card for the child she was buying the item for so she could not buy the item without paying the tax, because one of the requirements 1609

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 720 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: is you must have your MCP card, it says on the form. So I think it is utterly ridiculous. What they are doing is asking the retailers to do the dirty work for the government, because the government are saying that they are trying to save the dollars. · But what they are doing is causing the retailer much, murch more hardship. Mr. Chairman, the recommendations that were made by this

section of the Board of Trade - there are six recommendations and I will just mention two of them. The retail industry should receive a commission for collecting the government ·sales tax, because the government is causing the retail industry to collect the taxes. So if the retailers who sell peer products can receive a commission - beer retailers receive a commission, do they not? MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. WARREN: If the stores that sell beer receive a commission, surely goodness the retailers who are selling hundreds and thousands of commodities should also receive a commission for co~lecting the taxes. Mr.

Chairman, my han. colleague, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), said that this government will not give away anything - I think he referred in part·icular to education and health. I am going to just strike on one little thing where there is $424 million being spent. The government talk about all the money they are apending in health. However, I am shocked that the Minister of Health (Mr. House) could not see fit to attend a meeting in North West River over the past weekend. Some 200 people to 350 people were there, and they even had a chair with his name marked on it - they were addressing an empty chair.

The minister said that he did not have the facts and figures to back up why the hospital was closing down. 1610.

March. 28, 1983 Tape No. 721 NM- 1 MR. WARREN: And here we have a budget being passed, a budget presented to this han. House, and here is a major decision made By the Department of Health., and the minister does not even know why they made the decision . The minister does not even know why they made the decision. And I believe the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) last week, before the session adjourned, because there were conflicting reports from the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudiel, and from the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins}- I celieve,if I understood correctly, the Minister of Finance said th.at all :·.the Cabinet ministers knew what was in the budget, all the Cabinet ministers reviewed the budget, it is talked about and everything like that, put the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development said that he did not know what was in the budget about the North West River Hospital until fifteen m·inutes before the budget came down.

Surely goodness the least the Cabinet could have done was let a colleague in Cabinet know what kind of an effect this drastic action by the government was going to have on a town in his district. And here we have one or the other minister really not giving the full facts to the House. Now,whether it was deliberate or not I do not know. But the facts were not given. The facts were not given to th.e h.on. House. One of the ministers said that he only knew fifteen minutes before the budget was presented in the House~ And, fn fact, it w~s repeated on the weekend in North West River. MR. TULK: I believe him . MR.

WARREN: I believe the hon. member from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudiel, that he did not know until fifteen minutes before the budget was brought in. But the M~ister 1611

olt.':> March. 28, 1983 Tape No. 721 MR. WARREN: of Finance (Dr. Collins) - I will not say he deliberately ~sled the House, but the Minister of Finance definitely did not tell the whole truth in the House. NM- 2 Now, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), it is too bad he is not in his seat today, because the minister brought in a fantastic increase in social assistance, a big 6 per cent increase, I suppose under the 5 and 6 guidelines. And he said,also, he was going to increase the Northern allowance for fuel for residents in Labrador who receive fuel allowance. It is going to a.mount to a $1. 7 4 per month increase • . · 1612

March 28, 1983 Tape 722 EC - 1 MR. WAREEN: That will buy seven-eights of a gallon of fuel oil per month. So there, you would say, is a department that is really concerned about the social aspects of our Province. Mr. Chairman, this government has undertaken - and I have only been in this House since 1979, but I do recall that the Premier, campaigning in the 1979 general election said,· 'We will fight for the Newfoundland people.' And now, I agree, the Premier is fighting for the Newfoundland people. He is fighting to drive them out of existence. trying to do • MR. MARSHALL : MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : That is what the Premier is On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. On a point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR -. MARSHALL: .. Now, r'lr. Chaiman, we are considering Interim Supply and the expenditure of amounts of money in excess of $400 million - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: - which I would think would cause members to want to make relevant comments with resp·ect to the matter of expenditure, and I can hardly see how the remarks by the hon. gentleman are in any way relevant to the expenditure. I am dragging the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) to his feet and I know he is ·going to get after me, but I would appreciate it, Mr. Chairman, if he gets the message and drives some sense into his colleague as well as himself, if that ·is possible. MR. NE;A.EY: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. 1613

March 28, 1983 Tape 722 EC - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : To that point of order, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to get after the hon. gentleman. I pity the hon. gentlemen, they are such pathetic spectacles over there. They have no constructive plans to deal with the economy, they have no constructive plans to deal wi.th record unemployment in this Province, with the high cost of electricity, the high cost of living, student allowances.

They have no constructive plans and the best that the bon·. gentleman can do is try to interrupt the continuity of my hon. colleague's speech. It is not a point of order, Mr. Chairman, as Your Honour knows and Your Honour has ru],ed so often. HR. WARREN: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: That is right. All the bon. gentleman is doing is trying to use up some of the time of my hon. colleague. It is not a valid point of order, Mr. Chairman. We are debating .Interim Supply, which,as you know, is wide open. MR. SI~1S: You are using up the time of your colleague over there. MR. NEARY: No, I am not.

My colleague will have another ten minutes, you need not worry. We will be here until · Easter Sunday, do not worry about it. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that · there is no. valid point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I realize it is extremely difficult·to rule on relevancies. This is a money bill and it is a wide-ranging debate, so I would just refer hon. members to the bill. We are on Interim Supply. The hon. member's time has elapsea. 1614

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 723 JV - 1 MR. SPEAKER(Russell}: The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I just want to enter the debate for a brief period of time. It is always a pleasure to follow my friend from.Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren}, because he and I go back a long time with respect to debates, being associated with activities outside of the Legislature,of course~ I have seen him perform in debates taking place at other organizational meetings arid, of course, I have seen him perform in the House here~ It is generally a pleasure to follow him, because he is not --- ----- -...__ usually nasty or anything of that nature. He usually makes _ .. - - -~ --- · a bit of sense. I want to refer to the member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush}, to whom I always enjoy listening in a debate such as this, which is wide-ranging, as you, your han., · has ·already pointed out,and .I remember one of his comments during his · debate was how the P'7.ople were fed up listening to the people speaking on the government side. Well, if I ever heard, Mr. Chairman, of people being fed up with anybody,~ it has always been people being fed up with listening to _ ~ what the members of the Opposition are saying, not what the members from the Government side are saying. The member for Terra Nova talked about the government not giving anything away.

Well, he is absolutely right on that 1 because there is one thing that we will never give away, and we have made that position clear Mr.~ on many occasions, and that is our resources. And the members of the Opposition can try all they want to side with their friends in Ottawa 1 to try to encourage us to give 1615

..e,_ ~arch 28, 1983 Tape No. 723 JV- 2 MR. SIMMS: it away as quickly as we possibly can,hut we already did that once before 1Mr.Chai.l::man and it sits in the memory of all of us,with respect to the Churchill power situation, the situation that occurred under a former liberal admini .stration. The rriember for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) - --- ~ -- ""';:: 7.: ."!"" •• :". - - •• talks about a hypocritical government. Those were the descriptive and abjective words that he used, 'a hypocritical government'.

Well, I can recall some occasions that might suggest to people who are listening to debates that we may, in fact, have a very hyprocrital O.~position. · I suggest to members of the House and to the Leader of the O.pposit~on (Mr. Neary) in particular, from the people that I talk to around the Province,as he usually uses as his argumen~ 1that his credibility is lowering da y after day 1616

March 28,1983 Tape No. 724 ah-1 MR. SIMMS: He ·says one th~ng one da~ on one occasion , something else on another occasion. It has already been pointed out by my colleagues,the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and the Minister of Labour ManpQwer (Mr. Dinn), about their position on the fishery which he is trying so desperately now to score some political points on.

I recall recently_ well, everybody can recall a·few months ago when he·criticized this government and the Premier for calling a general election, everybody remembers that, for calling an unnecessary general election because it was going to cost money and we were only,after all 1 into our mandate for about nearly three years. And lo .and behold what did we hear a couple of months ago? All these threats:. HR.DOYLE: He wants another one. MR.SIMMS: Yes,he was going to go to the Lieutenant-Governor, going to suggest the Premier should call another election and give the people a chance to decide wh~t they want to do.

Now,if those are not hypocritical statements, Mr. Chairman, ·I do not know what are. MR.CARTER: Provocative. MR. SIMMS: Yes, they are certainly·._provocative But I say,again,it does nothing for the credibility of the Opposition nor for the c~edibility of the Leader of the Opposition. And I think that the people,generally, the public reco .gnize it.

Issuing five and six press releases every d~y; day after day ~ress releases steaming out of the Lead~r of the Opposition's office, no thought given to them, absolutely no thought at all, totally negative, totally c~itical, no constructive comments, nothing constructive , just absolutely criticizing everything this government is doing. MR. DOYLE: Bill Callanan is information officer for him. 1617

March 28,1983 Tape No. 724 ah-2 MR. SIMMS: Preachers of doom and gloom, Mr. Chairman. In any event,another good example of negativism coming from the Opposition that I want to make reference to,because I really have not had an opportunity prior to now 1 is the criticism that comes from the other side because we are finally doing something this year to promote Tourism, and I refer to the 400th anniversary celebrations. Now,Mr.

Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition has on several occasions , and e~erybody is aware of it, has just sort of made an aside comment about the 400th anniversary celebrations­ never gives both sides of the story or anything like that~ how foolish it is to be spending money on the 400th anniversary celebrations, how silly, how foolish. And on the one hand, of course, they are criticizing us because we are not doing anything to promote tourism in the Province and when we do something to promote tourism,he criticizes us for it.

He neglects to talk about the fact that the one per cent increase in tourism activity in this Province would mean a revenue increase of about $2.5 million. 1618

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 725 MJ - 1 MR. L. SIMMS: And of course, we expect a much greater increase in our Tourism activity during this coming year. We ha~e received more enquiries 1my colleague the Minister responsible for Tourism, the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) tells me, more enquiries up to this point,in this particular year,than ever before from tourists who are interested in this kind of historical celebration. We have received tremendous support for our anniversay celebrations from people involved in the tourist industy, hotel associations, and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) is well aware of that s_upport. But still he continues to say, 'Oh, how foolish it is.' The only ones to this point in time who have not - well, no, I cannot say that,that is not quite accurate. But certainly the Leader of the . Opposition and the Opposition members opposite show again what kind of credibility they have in this Province. A perfect example, of course, Mr. Chairman, is one of their major suggestions for a budgetary cost savings, one of their major suggestions. How do they suggest that we save some money in the Budget? What do they suggest?

One of the major _suggestions, close down the private elevator. The Finance critic says, 'Close down the private elevator.' The Leader of the Opposition say,s the o~her day, 'Close down the private elevator.' Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that closing down the private eleva tor rqould save, I do not know, I suppose - HR. H. YOUNG: About eight or ten dollars. MR. SIMMS: - eight or ten dollars at the most, the maximum,and that is a major suggestion; But again it shows the credibility of the su9gestions coming forth from the other side.

You never hear them talking about _anything positive, never mentioning any of the positive aspects .of the Budget that our friend and colleague the 1619

;:.;.:... March 28, 1983 Tape No, 725 .MJ - 2 MR. L. SIMMS: Minister of 'Finance (Dr. Coll.i.n~1 brought down a couple of weeks ago. What a,bout the $30 million in transportation projects that the Premier alluded to today in his Ministerial Sta.tement? The $10 million for the construction of the Confed,eration Building Complex? $16 million in other capital projects: The Cla,renville Hospital, the Labrador Constabulary Building, the Bonavista Hospital, Her Majest;.y' s Penitentiary - there are going to be ma.jor renovations there. A total of over $16 mil1,i.on, Mr.

Chairman, in capital expend,itures, this is going to provide employment. But what do you hear the Opposition talking about? 'Close down the private eleva,tor,' save ten bucks. A major, major contribution, Mr.

Chairman,~there is no question about that. .All the other thing13 in the Budget, and they are well aware of it, $30 million for school construction, $25 million for municipal capital grant projects,to be shared around the prav.i,nce .i,n all those communities, $20 million provincial h.i,ghway fund.ing, increases forSocial Service recipients, ·increases in child, welfare allowances, foster home ra.tes, 1620 ....

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 726 NM- 1 MR. SIMMS: clothing allowances, two new group homes are going to be built for the mentally handicapped adults, changing the interest rates that .are presently now available through the Fisheries Loan Board, the Farm Development Loan Board, and the Rural Development Loan Board, to improve them, funding being provided to launch and establish an economic council,which is something I am sure that the Board of T~ade in St. John's and other interested parties would be pleased to hear about. So, Mr. Cllaizroan, we never eve .r hear .any constructive.

We never hear anything positive from the other side. MR. TULK: We leave that to you, boy. MR. SIMMS: But we certainly hear lost of negativisms, and the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulkl certainly is aware of all those negativisms. By the way,I saw the headline story when you had your organizational meeting out in that historic district of Grand -Falls, and the headlines said, "The Liberal Party is alive and well." That was the quote. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. SIMMS: Yes, it certainly is. I was asked for my comment on it by the local media. MR.

NEARY: That is the only sensible statement you made the whole MR. s·IMMs: I thought you would enjoy it. MR. TULK: We will elect . you back in. MR. SIMMS: I was asked for my comment out '·there by the local media, what I thought of ~he headline. MR. TULK: We know what you said. MR. SIMMS: What did r say? -- MR. TULK: Very negative, you had to be. MR. SIMMS: No, r did not. 1621

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 726 NM - 2 MR. SIMMS: That is- where the hon. gentleman is incorrect. I said the Liberal Party certainly is well. MR. TULK: And that is . all? MR. SIMMS: And that is all I said. MR. TULK: (Inaudible) • MR. SIMMS: Well.I did not say that. It did not go any further. But he mentioned that the reason for the meeting being held in Gra:r:d Falls was because it is good fertile Liberal country. Well,now,there is no mistake about that. MR. TULK: MR. SIMMS: bragging .. Bo not crag too much. I am not bragging. I am not The member for To~ngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren}, by the way, also talks about an issue that I want to address oriefly,too,and that relates to the increase in fees. The member.for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) talked about an increase in moose licences. Well, Mr. Chairman, there was no increase in moose licence fees this year. We rejected that possibility, that option, because the increases would have had to be doubled from $25 to $50.

And because of the criticisms, the very legitimate criticisms of the public with resp ·ect -to some of the problems, with respect to the wildlife Di~ision's handling of the moose hunting situation, .. - _.., ·- to overcome these complaints and criticisms it was felt, and rightly so in my opinion, that we had to identify areas of revenue to offset costs associated with overcoming all these legitimate criticisms.

With respect to that we introduced a $5 fee which is going to be shared by all ·­ applicants, and I understand,as recently as this morning, that there has been no significant reduction in the number of applicants or anything, Mr. Chairman. MR. RIDEOUT: No •. According to the line-ups - - - .there is not. 1622

March 28, 1983 MR. SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : minister's time has elapsed. 1623 Tape No. 726 NM - 3 According to the line-ups. Order, please! The hon.

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 727 SD - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN '(Aylward); The han. · Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder what has happened to the high level of debate that we used to have in this House1 You know, Mr. Chairman, I have been here going . on twenty-one years and I must say that here lately I am becoming awfully depressed and discouraged. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh l MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the level of debate in this House has really sunk to an all time low. If that is the biggest gun that they can put up against us over there, Mr. Chairman, I would say God help the future of this House.

We have the Minister of of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinnl get up today and make a number of illogical irresponsible statements, completely illogical, not rational, Mr. Chairman. Now we just had an example of another han. gentleman who did not - now remember this is a minister speaking for the administration, a minister who is supposed to tell the House and tell the people of this Province what plans they have to deal with the economy, to deal with. the problems that are facing our people. .That is what you would expect from a minister. A minister gets up and states policy. That is what a 'minister does, Mr.

Chairman. I do nat have to give the han. House a lecture on the responsibilities and the duties o'f a minister. A minister ,'when he speaks: the media up over my head should hang on to every word that is being said to se'e if there is any policy in there, to see if he can detect how the government is thinking, how the government feels about certain issues. Now,did we get that from either one of the ministers who have spoken here this afternoon? Did we get it from the Mi .nis.tex of Finance (Dr. Collinsl? MR. TULK: No. MR. NEARY: Did we get it ~rom the Minist~r 1624

March 28, 1983 MR. NEARY : Dinn)? MR . TULK: MR . NEARY: Tape No . 727 so - 2 of Labour and Manpower (,Mr. No. Did we get it from the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth who just spoke ? Give me the answer again. No. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 1625

March 28, 1983 Tape 728 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: All three ministers, how did they spend, Mr. -Chairman, their ten minutes? MR. TULK: Up criticizing the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Exactly. That is exactly what they did, especially me. They seem to be awfully concerned and they are awfully testy, and they are awfully sensitive about what I say and what I do, Mr. Chairman. Now, here we are eight people over here. There are only eight of us, there are forty-four on the government side, and yet they are more concerned about what we say and do, where we hold our meetings, than they are in articulating plans - MR.

TULK: Let me go out in one of their districts as president of the party and I am no sooner left it then - boom! MR. NEARY: That is right. They are more interested in criticizing me and the Opposition, which leads me to believe, Mr. Chairman, that we are ~etting through to them, that the criticism is taking its toll, that the image of the administration is severly battered and bruised. Otherwise, Mr.

Chairman, ~inisters would stand up and do what they are supposed to do in this ~ouse, and that is to enunicate and articulate policy, and tell us what the administration stands for, what they are doing about various problems that are facing our people, what ·they are doing about the crisis in the fishery, what they are doing about the pulp and paper industry problem, what they are doing about the Bowaters s.i,tuation, what the¥' are doing abo.ut record u·nemployment amongst young people, what they are doing about_high electricity rates, what they are doing about a transmission line from Labrador to bring the power down to the Island of 1626

March 28, 1983 Tape 728 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Ne wfoundland , what , they are doing about the Lower Churchill, 1-1hat . they are doing about the $3 .5 billion debt we have in this ProvincE>. Now that is what ministers sho uld be doing, Mr . Chairman . But for some reason or other they are not doing that. Obviously they have no ideas of their own . They have no original ideas, no constructiv~ proposals or suggestions or recommendations to make to this House about how they are going to deal with the problems that are facing the people. Now, Mr.

Chairman, a comparison is made from time to time about the present Premier and about a past Premier in this Province. We are told -and members over there,sometimes they boast about that, they tell us there is a comparison bet~o1een the present Premier and a former Premier iri this Province,namely, Mr. Smallwood. Now whe n they are comparing their Premier to Mr . Smallwood they try to latch onto the odd good little thing, but when they want to condemn Mr. Smallwood,they latch onto the so-called 162 7 ,

March 28, 1983 Tape 729 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: unpopular things. Now, Mr. Chairman, let me say this to hen. gentlemen,and to anybody else who draws a com­ parison between the present Premier and the former Premier Smallwood, that in my opinion, there is no comparison. Mr. Chairman, let me put this proposition to the House: When Mr. Smallwood sat on the opposite side of the House,where the present Premier is sitting, when the former Premier was sitting over 'there, was Newfoundland booming? Was Newfoundland prosperous? Was there all kinds of work ·for construction workers? .

Were there hospitals being built, fish plants being built, hydro developments taking place, vocational schools being built, roads being paved, communities taken out of isolation, rural electrification programme, new university, new Fisheries College, new high schools, new senior citizens homes? Mr. Chairman, was that what we saw from that administration headed by ~· Smallwood, who was a builder? The man was a builder. He could only think positive; Mr.

Chairman, the Iron Ore Company of Canada, Labrador West, Wabush and Labrador City, the pulp and paper industry in Stephenville, 'the chain of hotels that we see across this Province, was that not what happened? In the good old Liberal days, Mr. Chairman, were not these the things that were going on? Now, where is the comparison between Mr. Smallwood and the present Premier? Mr. Smallwood was a builder. MR. DOYLE: mills. MR. NEARY: Linerboard mills and newsprint Yes, Mr. Chairman, • there would not be a paper industry in Stephenville today but for the construction of that Linerboard mill. HR.

DINN: He built a Linerboard mill, that is not paper. 1628

March 28, 1983 Tape 729 EC - 2 MR . NEARY: Well, w~o put it there, Mr . Chairman? How many linerboa .rd mills and how many pulp and paper industries have hon. gentlemen started in the last eleven years in this Province? Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is there is no comparison. We had a builder. For twenty-three years there was a man who built Newfoundland, who did not have a negative vein in his body. But what do we have today, Mr. Chairman? We have a Premier who 1629

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 730 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: has not produced one single original idea in the last three years, since he has been head of the administration. We have had a Tory administration for eleven years that has not - MR •. TULK : ·No credibility. MR. NEARY: No, no credibility. And I would submit, Mr. Chairman, that what the hon. gentleman is worried about are the polls. The hon. gentleman is worried about the polls,because the polls, Mr. Chairman, of the last few weeks indicate that the administration is down in a valley.

The administration is down and sliding down and going down hill pretty fast 1 and the image of the Premier is severely battered and bruised. And, Mr. Chairman, what the hon. gentleman is worried about, if there was an election today the hon. gentleman knows in his heart that the situation would be reversed. We would just see the reverse of what it is at the present time. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please: The hon. member's time has · elapsed. The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, I have a word or two to say.

I have been listening all afternoon now, three or four times now ·, to the Leader of the Oppos ·i tion (Mr. Nearyl. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that the · gist of what th .e Leader of th.e Opposition is getting on with this afternoon I heard not quite a year aga- yes, about . a year ago, just before April 6~ last year , in th.e Fall session. There were polls then too, Mr. Chairman, which showed that the Opposition were - MR. SIMMS: When their polls .. s~ owed they . were going to win thirty-five seats. MR. RIDEOUT: I heard forty at one time. 1630

I March 28, 1983 Tape No. 730 SD - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: Thirty~five was the bottom line 1 but there were polls showing that it was forty . And I remember , you know, looking across and shivering here as I was sitting in my chair, as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) would start up in that corner of the neuse and come down the backbenches and head down to this corner of the House and then he would pick out various ministers~ He would go in a tirade for fifteen, twenty, twenty-five minutes, Mr. Chairman, talking about who was gone - the member for Bay of Islands (.Mr.

Woodrow) was gone, the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) was gone, the member for St. George's (Mr. Dawe} was gone, the member for Baie Verte - White Bay was gone . All you co uld hear was gone, gone, gone, up one bench and down the other. And he talked about polls and he talked about what the polls were showing and he talked about everything you could talk about but we were gone. We were wiped off the face of the earth, we were wiped off the map. · MR. DOYLE: And you were really gone. MR. RIDEOUT: I was under the carpet , I was not fit to talk about I was not even going to save my nomination fee. MR.

WARREN: (Inaudible) MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, I never said a word to the han. gentleman today. Now r can shout just as loud as he can but I did not say a word to him today and I am not going to get into a shouting match with . him. I am just responding to some of the things the Leader of the Opposition said that, you know, this side of ·the H.ouse is wiped out. Well,what happened? 1631

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 731 JV- 1 HR. RIDEOUT: Actually, the Premier took the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) up on his challenge at the time and he called an election. Now, where did the wipe-out occur? Where does there exist today in Newfoundland the prime reason for a NEED programme? Where does it exist? It is not over here,Mr. Chairman. Where is the other misery list that I talked about the other day? It is not over here,Mr. Cb~irnan lt is on the other side of the House. Let me talk about polls for a second.

The Leader of the Opposition has been talking about some polling he had done recently, Nell, we have got some -~po}-ls too,...Mr. Chairman. MR. DINN: actuals. MR. RIDEOUT: Those are not polls, they are Well, they are actuals,as actual as polls can be.-- I believe the popularity of the Prernie~ It .slipped from 82 per cent,in April, do ~n to 75 per cent a couple of days ago or a couple of weeks ago, something like that.

There are· all kinds of things in this poll here Mr.'~, It shows what has been happening in the liberal vote consistently since 1949 in this Province. ~t consistently ' shows what has been happening to the vote~ It shows what the split in seats would be federally and provincially in this Province if there were an election held today. It shows a whole lot of things. Some very impressive polling people over the last month or so hav~ ~ o?: _s~me very __ impres ~ iye polling - there are bar ~;~phs, ther~ are .lJ.ne graphs and there is everything there you can see, if the Leader of the Opposition could only see it.

I remember, Mr.~' ' another Leader of the Opposition 1 a couple of f ~ .. . 4 1632

March 28, 1983 Tape No. 73l JV - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: years ago ~loating about polls in this House, I remember that. I remember him,as a matter of fact,so gloating that he came across the floor over here and talked to some people with a copy of the poll in this hand. Polls are polls, -Mr. Chairman, but polls will tell you, I suppose, exactly what you want to hear when you want to hear it. ~There are some very interesting statistics in the poll that my friend,the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) has. I have some advice for my colleagues, MJ:::.

Cha~, - + really picked up' ~n .what the Leader - -. of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) had to say in the first part of his second or third go-around this afternoon,and he was suggesting that he is probably getting to us on this side 1 because we are