PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MAY 18, 1977

May 18, 1977 Tape 2922 PK- 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am pleased to welcome to -the galleries this afternoon two groups of visiting students, ten Grade VII and VIII students from theW. G. Davis Senior Public School at Brampton, Ontario accompanied by their teacher,Mrs. Foster. And these students are here under an exchange programme. And also forty- six Grade IX students from St. Clare's High School in Carbonear accompanied by their teacher in charge,Mr. Brian Manning.

I know all hon. members join me in welcoming these young people from Carbonear and from Ontario to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 0 0 0 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: On a point of privilege? MR. LUSH: Yes. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure, I suppose· it is a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, but I would like to have leave of the House to discuss a matter that I think is of grave -~ortance to this Province. The matter relates to,or it respects allegations of -improl)riety on the part of Provincial ministers.

It also relates -to great remarks discriminatory and in~u~ting to __ this _ ~rovince of Newfoundland. It relates, Sir, to remarks made in the House of Commons by Mr. Rodriguez,the NDP member for Nickle Belt, the riding of Nickle Belt. And I think the statements are quite serious. They are insid'Ious they are invidious, and they are contemptuous He was speaking to the Committee on Northern Affairs - en Indian Affairs, I am sorry, on Indian and Northern Affairs, and they were talking about the Terra Nova National Park. And Mr. Rodriguez made some erroneous statements that . I think need to be corrected.

First of all, he was - I tried to get a transcript of the remarks made in the Committee, and I find they are totally confusing, Mr.

May 18, 1977 Tape 2922. PK - 2 Mr. tush: Sp·eaker-, tfobody knows~ 'lt seetll$ as - though whe·re. the Terra Nova '---' .. National Park is going to go, least of all, Mr. Rodriguez~ !I~ sugge$ted that the Terra Nova National Park - the~ Terra Nova National golf course was being built as a result of an agreement in 1972 which created the Terra Nova National- Park whic.h in essence, of cause, it was~ the Gros Morne agreement of 1972, wh.ich stated in effect that a golf co~s~'j"~Ul.~ b~ built in Newfoundland by Parks . Canada. lt did not specify which park. And after much study, of course, it was decided that the park would be constructed in the Tena Nova Natio~al Park.

May 18,1977 Tape 2923 AH-1 MR. LUSH: · · Other committe~ members made some very.~nsulting remarks about the building of a golf course in Newfoundland, they said that the MR. NEARY: Get the support of the Premier on this one. MR. LUSH: Right~_ that the golf course built in Newfoundland was questionable in so much that the geography was not suited to a golf course and it went on to say that the golfers would be fighting insects and the cold. Mr Speaker, I think this is insulting~ grossly insulting but, Mr. Speaker, the most important thing about all of this is that Mr.

Rodriguez presented a motion before the standing committee and the motion in affect was to reduce, to cancel,or to reduce the monies allocated for the construction of the Terra Nova National Golf Course to $1. t.:rith this in affect, Mr. Speaker, would rob this Province of $4 million, and at a time when we have extremely high unemployment, I think that this House should pass a ~otion - the government can do it, the Minister of Tourism could pass a motion condemning the contemptuous ·and malicious remarks by Mr. Rodriguez and condemning the motion. And one other point, Mr.

Speaker, that I mentioned about allegations to Ministers of the Crown outside the House of Commons, outside the committee, Mr. Rodriguez was reported to have hinted that the Terra Nova National Golf Course was being built outside the boundaries of the Terra Nova "National Park but he hinted that it was being built outside the Terra Nova National Park because it was being built on land owned by provincial cabinet ministers. Now, Mr. Speaker, the~e are serious allegations and so I think this House should unanimously pass a motion condemning the actions of Mr.

Rodriguez and -other members of this committee, and condemming outrightly the motion and the Ministers of the Crown would have to take whatever action is necessary regarding the allegations made by Mr. Rodriguez,

May 18,1977 Tape 2923 AH-2 MR. LUSH: the NDP member for Nickle Belt riding. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a few remarks to this issue. I have · been in touch with my staff today on this matter and I am informed that Mr. Thompson, Pat Thompson') who is located in the Halifax area, , Parks Canada, have passed on to the Ottawa office,hopefully for tab~i?~ · by Mr. Allmand, the minister a list of names of the land owners in the Sandringham area where the golf course i~ going to be built. There is not very much one can say, Mr.

Speaker~ with regard to this except to be shocked by the fact that a member of parliament who obviously should - or at least one would believe that he would have the best interests of all the country at heart, -notwithstanding his desire to do something for his own constituency. But it is people like Mr. Rodriguez : who do a great deal against national unity and I suggest that this is another prime example of the Central Canada attitude of some people unfortunately who have the opportunity to sit in public places like the House of Commons.

I have discussed this matter briefly with my colleagues, Certainly there is a need for this House to do something and I suggest that there is nothing more appropriate than a fitting resolution to be passed uhanimously by this House, hopefully, and to be passed on to the chairman of the committee on Indian and Northern Affairs. I would suggest also, Mr. Speaker, that copies of it be sent to the Newfoundland members of parliament so that they know just exactly where we sit in terms of this Province and this government with regards to this golf course.

While I am on my feet I should inform hon members that a second appraisal - a second appraiser has been hired and work is continuing and a report will be in by the last of May hopefully,

May 18,1977 Tape 2923 AH-3 MR. HICKEY: which will see the successful conclusion to 1ong .negotiations with regards to the acquisition of this property. Certainly this - -- - --- - ·- ------ ·

May 18, 1977, Tape 2924, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKEY: House should not lose any time in convincing AN HON. MEMBER: For the record; is there any one with their name on that list just for the record? MR. HICKEY: We cannot get any infor.mation, Mr. Speaker, to indicate any names of any - this is a scurrilous reference ~~ i ~riuendo and by implication and that is all. I think it is proper that this House should deal with it accordingly. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREr.UER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to speak very briefly about the raising of the flag at the Canada Summer Games in Ottawa just a couple of days ago. There are two things I wanted to say about it: First of all I would like to congratulate all those involved in the ceremony for what I understand was a job extremely w~ll done. The representatives, the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation from our government was there, and the Prime Minister, of course, from the federal government, and the Chairman of the S~er Games, and the other dignitaries who were attached to that particular ceremony.

But I think there is one thing particularly that comes out of it, that first of all I understand that some 120 Newfoundland dogs that v1ere there from as far West as Alberta, and from our own Province here, of course, and from the United States as well, in national . terms did a great deal. I understand there were front . page articles in the Ottawa papers, the _Calgary -- papers and the others.

And I might say here, by the way, and this is not a derogatory comment to our press, but I am very surprised that at a time when it is a moment of pride for Newfoundland, that there was not a great deal more coverage than there was for that particular event.

May 18, 1977, Tape 2924·, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: But what r wanted to say, Sir, was that I would like to congratulate those for the start of the Summer Games. They are going to be a big event in this Province this Summer and I hope our friends from Ontario who are in the Galleries today will mention to their friends that everyone is welcome here this Summer and I am sure that this is a start to what is going to be a very successful provincial event. SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! The han. the Leader of the Well, Mr.

Speaker, we on this side of the Ho.use, Sir:i would very much like to be associated with the remarks expressed by the Premier. I think that every Newfoundlander felt a surge of pride and of very strong emotion-when we saw the coverage on the national television. The local television news did not cover it; it was covered only in the national segments of the news programmes which we get in the evening. I gather from people I have spoken to in Ottawa it was a most impressive ceremony.

There were quite a large number of dogs and I believe the pride of the breed was one from the kennels in Harbour Grace, operated by the Premier's sister, the Harbour Beem Kennels, which is pre-eminent among the dog breeders of the Newfoundland breed, and it has helped greatl¥ to bring back a breed which a few years ago was close to extinctionr and if it had not been for the work of the late Han. Harold Macpherson, and carried on by Mrs. Nutbeem and a number of other breeders, the breed would not have reached the peak it has today.

May 18, 1977, Tape 2924, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: The Summer Games are obviously going to be a very memorable occasion in the history of this Province. I think they are off to a good start with the ceremonies in Ottawa earlier this week, and I think it is very appropriate that the ceremonies should be held where they were, on Pa~liament Hill, which is the centre of Canada, the nationa~ square. I think it was~ entirely appropriate they should involve the Newfoundland dog.

I thought the Prime Minister's remarks were very eloquent when he spoke of the symbolism and of the meaning of the ceremony to him, and I thought it a very nice touch indeed, that the young pup, a Newfoundland dog, was presented - I am not sure if it was to the Prime Minister or to his children, but it will grow up, I understand, in a kennel being erected at 24 Sussex, perhaps next to the swimming pool. It is entirely appropriate because, of course, Newfoundland dogs are well-known swimmers back to Lord Byron's time. Lord Byron had a Newfoundland dog which was a famous swimmer.

But it was entirely appropriate, Sir, and I think it is fitting the House should note it and should congratulate Mr. Andrew Crosbie, the Chairman of the Summer Games, and all who are associated with him in what is fast becoming one of the most successful as well as one of the most notable events in our history, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: matter under this Heading? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Presenting petitions. · ~ Mr. Speaker, may I raise another Under Statements by Ministers? Well, it is a formal matter, yes, Sir. It is a little unusual, Sir.

The House has a long tradition of marking the death of a former member , o£ the House, and I would like, if I might,

May 18, 1977 Tape 2925 PK- 1 Mr. Roberts : to bring to the attention of the House an event whichs _ ~hough it is related to that, it is not quite the same. But there died at Lewisporte on Monday evening a Mr. James Hodder at the age of eighty-seven. Mr. Hodder was a well known citizen of Lewisporte and ·Central Newfoundland. A very prominent man, Sir. A very unusual in that both his son and his grandson have served as members of this House. His grandson is the present member for Port au Port (Mr. J. Hodder), who will obviously not be with us in the next day or so.

The funeral, I believe, is tomorrow, is it in Lewisporte? I think it is tomorrow. AN HON . MEMBER : Yes • MR. ROBERTS: But his father,Mr. Walter Hodder,served for a number of years as the member for the district of Burgeo-LaPoile and served as the Deputy Chairman of Committees, I believe, as well for a period. So I would move,or perhaps the Premier would care to move and I would second~that an appropriate letter of condolence be sent to Mr. Walter Hodder who, I believe, is the eldest surviving son,and the other members of the family.

There are not many families, Sir, that have the tradition of father to son in this House. The present gentleman for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) had his father serve in the House, as well as his brother. The gentleman for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) served with his son in the House. But it is not often it happens, Sir, and I think in these circumstances the House would be well advised to take note of the passing of a very fine old gentleman, Sir, a man who has serVed this Province well. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, it is not with pleasure that you make a motion like that, it is something I am only too glad to do~ and on behalf of the government side to do it. I did not realize that Mr. Hodder had died. I am sure · particular-ly his grandson

May 18, 1977 Tape 2925 PK - 2 Premier Moores: who is here has had a trumatic time as far as business of the House is concerned recently, and when you have a family matter of this magnitude,no matter what age the person is,it is always a very, as I say, a trumatic episode in any house: And it is something that we all feel and we have all felt from time to time, and our sympathy is to him and it certainly is extended - and certainly I propose the motion on this matter that the Leader of the Opposition brought up. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. John's East. MR. W.

MARSHALL: I rise to present a petition on behalf of some 250 more people in the Battery area in my district, from the Battery and Signal Hill. The prayer of the petition is brief and very simple. It says that they would like support for the cleaning up of the area of the Battery and Signal Hill. Now the reason for this petition, Mr. Speaker, for the simplistic, in effect, the petition says they want something to be done. And the reason why it is couched in such language is first of all from the point of view of the people from the Battery as their traditional independence, they are a very independent people.

And also it is partly born ~in frustration because for so many years politicians of all stripes and in all sizes have been telling them that certain things will be done and they have not yet been done. Since this petition was signed, Mr. Speaker, the community of- because it is really a community.of the Battery and the Signal Hill area-have come together and organized themselves into a neighbourhood improvement area.

And one of the desirers of the signators to this petition is that the area, the Battery and Signal Hill and other surrounding areas be recognized as a neighbourhood improvement area, and be entitled to participate in the Federal­ Provincial and Municipal programme that has so successfully been instituted in other parts of old St. John's, They have, Mr. Speaker, already elected a Steering Committee. They are in the process of adopting a constitution, and in

May 18, 1977 Tape 2925 PK - 3 Mr. Marshall: short order I expect there will be an application to the Mut1icipal Government · and to the Provincial Government~ _____ So_ the 111!1-jor p~rt of the prayer of this petition is that such application _when it comes be favourably _and speedily receiV'ed. It also, Mr. Speaker,- refers to certain services that are necessary. I might state that this petition was also presented to the City Council some time ago,because most of the areas affe~ted come within the responsibility of the city, but to date unfortunately not a great deal has resulted from it.

For years there have been a few houses in the Battery area which require - abandoned houses- which require removal unde .r the Council programme. Despite repeated requests this has not occurred. We all know that the Batte-ry area is intrinsically a very nice area for tourists, it is one of the greatest tourist areas.

May 18, 1977 Tape 2926 LB-1. MR. MARSHALL: · it,·couid::be to eastern Newfoundland and certainly to the city of St. John's. The tourist potential is great.

The _Outfi!r ~a;~ery itself have made requests t:ime after t:ime after time for attention to be paid to the problem that occurs somet:imes through rocksJddas in the area. ~ole all remember not too long ago a very unfortunate incident occurred in the winter t:ime about five or six years ago,I believe,whereby people were actually killed in a snowslide. vfuat has happened is that there are a lot of rocks down there that need attention on the hill itself because they constitute a danger to the people in the Outer ~atte ry_. _ No attention has been paid to this.

Another matter I think of the supreme L~portance,not only to the battery but to all of ?,t. John's, because as far as I am concerned it is a conglomerative municipal, provincial and federal disgrace~is the condition of the harbour in the city of St. John's. I recently attended a meeting with fishermen in the Battery in the St. John's area. The fact of the matter is now that the city's harbour has become so polluted that it is impossible for the men to wash the boats out in the immediate vicinity of the harbour.

Their ropes and their lines and that are, you just cannot describe the filth of the lines after they have been in the barbour for a few moments, even just a few moments. Now the fishery in St. John's is pretty well overlooked,but the fact of the matter is we have fifteen trap crews and thirty small boats fishing out of St. John's. Ten of the trap crews fish out of the battery; one-half.,at least one -half., of the small boats people came from thebattery, itself. I am informed that there are between two and three million pounds of fish a year caught out of St. John's.

So the fishery is as big in this area in quantity as you get in a place like Bay Bulls and Petty Harbour, - which are ·traditionalTy- regarded as fishing areas.

- --- - --------- ----- - - ---·- ----- --- ¥.ay 18, 1977 Tape 2926 LB-2. MR.MARSIIALL: Now I say the condition of the harbour is a disgrace to the city of St. John's,and certainly the people who are most affected are the people in the Battery who for centuries have been fishing out of that place and their fishery is now is very much impeded. We hear a lot from time to time now about native rights to resources and what have you.

I would say that this is certainly kindred to native rights,because no group of people have more right to be able to fish and prosecute their livelihood as these independent fishermen of the Battery who have for centuries now find themselves impeded by the dirt and filth of that harbour. As I say~something should be done about it. So there are many grave problems at the Battery to which this petition draws attention and I would ask that it be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates.

Referred to the Minister of the Environment for his attention, to the Minister of Intergovermental Affairs so that he can get after the Federal Government from . the National Harbour Board to discharge their responsibility with respect to it.~ to the Hinister of Fisheries ~who will be intensely interested in the protection of this industry in the city of St. John's. Most of all to the Xinister of Municipal Affairs to which the improvements are referred to relate to in large measure.

Of course the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs being a resident of the Battery,or having been a resident grown up there, I know will receive it sympa theticn:_ly; To the Minister of Tourism because of the potential the Signal Hill and the Battery has,and as a matter of fact to the Ron. the Premier and all of their colleagues becasue no longer,Hr.

Speaker, can this situation be tolerated and something has to be done as I say for these independent people in the Battery and I do hope some care and heed and attention will come to this petition, not just from the Provincial Government but from the Municipal Government and the Federal Government.

...:......~-"'----- ---· May 18, 1977 Tape 2926 LB-3. HR .NOLAN: Mr . Speaker, I rise to support most heartily the petition as tabled by the hon. member for St. John's East referring to the Battery. Surely it has to be one of the araes within the urban region. It has to be and can be pointed _to_ as ~ne _of_ ~e most . . neglected areas of all. _ It _.5:ert:_ainl y is in c_tle_ ~rban region of St. John's. I am afraid · I do not know if it is the result of not caring or shee r ignorance or what. It is not enough, for example, -to sit here and criticize the council of St. J ohn's.

It is a join t effort that is going to be needed on behalf of any number of agencies, municipally, provin ciall y and federall y in order to solve the problem there . Not too long ago in the late 1960's there was some consideration being given to an urban renewal scheme .for the Batte r y area.

May 18, 1977 Tape No. 2927 EC - 1 MR. NOLAN: I believe it would not include just The Battery, but down toward York Street and - I just forget the exact dimensions now, but they were certainly looking at it. I was appalled, at one point, in sitting in on a meeting on the mainland of Canada, when there were a number of bureaucrats at a long table where I was sitting - I believe in Halifax it took place - representatives from C.M.H.C., and so on. And one of the things on the docket that day, was The Battery. ~~d one of the learned gentiemen involved, I remember, spoke up and said, "The Battery, now.

What people do you have there? Are they squatters?" To _ _::-fflich I replied, "Yes, they have been squatting for about t:T.vo or three hundred years," which silenced them pretty quickly on that occasion. But it is a sad thing. We have out there ·. a sight that anywhere else in the world - you probably would not be able to afford to buy the property, in my opinion. And MR. ROBERTS : MR. NOLAN: ~- ROBERTS: ~. NOLAN': The wealthy suburbs would be The Battery - Yes. ~ ~~d- Shea Heights, anywhere e~se. Shea Heights and !he Battery would be the Knob Hill, anywhere else in the world. AN RON.

MEMBER: The Westmounts of St. John's. HR. NOLAN: The Westmounts of St. John's. And I think it is time now · that the member for the area put his foot down and demand it from the federal, provincial and municipal agencies that they come together, under his chairmanship, perhaps. Because merely presenting a petition in this House is not enough, in my opinion.

And I believe that the rock slides that he refers to are very serious, and I do not want to be standing here some day, offering condolences, and so on, because I have been down there at T-he Battery following storms, seen the damage done to the fishing equipment there~ stages and also the damages to the houses, as a broadcaster over the years. One of the great spokesmen down there over the years, of course, was the late Ray Riche, as many of you will know. I hope that the application to which the hon. member

May 18, 1977 Tape No. 2927 EC - 2 MR. NOLAN: refers will be received, and that something concrete will be done, and that this will not be merely a gesture on our part, and that something now ' will move very quickly, very definitely, to assure these people that the time for talking is over, and that there are sufficient people aroundr~~ · have their best interests at heart. There - is one place down there- where there is a giant rock that I can think of, overhanging a house, or houses down there • Every time I see it_, and I feel(- i:he member for St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) is in the same position - he must cringe with the possibility that, that reck there - the threat that it poses. I am not going to say it is going to fall tonight, but I do not know that it is not going to fall tonight, and because I do not know, and because it does pose that threat, we have to be concerned. So, let us stop talking about !he Battery, and let us do something about it. Those people down there are as deserving of positive - governmental action and consideration as we~l as anyone else in this Province.

And it is incumbent upon us now -to make a move now, and to stop talking about grandiose plans and so on, and get moving, because othen~ise, surely, the people of The Battery can only look upon us with suspicion and scorn, -· if we continue the way we have been over the years. So · I · certainly support, on behalf of our side, ~r. Speaker, the petition that is tabled by the han. member for St. John's East. }(R • SPEAKER : The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I support the prayer of the petition presented by the han. gentleman, Sir, on behalf of 250 residents, who live in The Battery part of St.

John's. -No other group of men, women and children in this Province, Sir, have been used so much for political pawns as the people who reside at The Battery. Every time there is a municipal election in the offing, Sir, The Battery becomes the issue in St. John's. And we have a municipal election coming up this fall, and again, The Battery is brought into the fore-front. The people,

- - ------·------ ------ ···--------- "···- --~-- May 18, 1977 Tape No. 2927 EC - 3 ~-- . ... MR. NiEAR.!': Sir, have been used and are continuing to be used by the politicians, both municipal~ provincial and federal. Mr. ~peaker, it it about time · that, instead of paying lip-service to The Battery, that something was done to ~ro~e conditions over there. It is one of the most beautiful parts of St. John's; Sir. There is a - I do not know if they are still using the honeycart over there. They are using, I suppose, a more sophisticated version, now, of the honeycart.

But the sewerage sti.ll has to be hauled away from the - They haul it now; in trucks. One time, they used tQ have a horse and cart. Now- · they are hauling it away in a truck. So,- . you have now, -- a modern version of the honeycart. And the people still have to carry water over there, Sir, and I think that is disgraceful in this day and age. Mr. Speaker, the N. I.P. Programme that the hon. gentle~~ referred to

May 18, 1977 Tape 2928 RT-1 MR. NEARY: I believe it is only designed to upgrade old houses, will not put in water and ~ewer age. Well, maybe it will, and the han. gentleman says, "No, it is not 11 • Well, I hope that it does include water and sewerage for The Battery, because we now know, Sir, from the experiments that have been conducted in Russia that it is possible to put in overland water and sewer systems. Now, they may be costly, but it is possible. As far as the Harbour is concerned, Sir, although the han. gentleman did not mention this, the sewerage from the City of St.

John 1 s is still flowing out in the Harbour of St. John's. If you happen to have enough money in your pocket to go down for a meal at The Starboard Quarter on a calm day, when you are looking out the window from The Starboard Quarter and you see a bubble coming up in the water just overlooking the window from The Starboard Quarter, Sir, you know that somebody in St. John's just flushed their toilet. So, Mr. Speaker, there is need for improvement around the whole Harbour. My hon. friend is quite right. Al~ RON. MEMBER: (inaudible) MR.

NEARY: No, I am not trying to be dramatic about this, but it is a fact, and - AN HON. MEMBER: - a fish meal plant. MR. NEARY: A fish meal plant? Well, I do not know H you - you mean to put a fish meal plant down on the - Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see that the Municipal Council recently decided to take steps to build little bins for the fishermen to get the people to sell the fish in Steers Cove, to get them into their little stalls, and they are going to put running water there for them, I understand. But, the whole Harbour area needs to be cleaned up. It is filthy, rotten.

There is all kinds of debris floating around. I think a stiff fine should be levied against the ships if they are caught dumping garbage over the side into the Harbour. And anybody that spills a drop of oil or a drop of gas, or anything else - there should be stiff penalties for people, Sir,

May 18, 1977 Tape 2928 RT-2 MR. NEARY: who throw garbage and the like into that Harbour. So, I support the prayer of the petition wholeheartedly, Sir, and I hope, this time, that the people of The Battery will be lucky enough to get something done - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: - and it will not just be lip service, that this time they will get action for a change. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: NIP service, not lip service. Hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few brief words with regard to the petition hy way of support.

I had the privilege of representing The Battery people for close to ten years - nine years - and I know, Mr. Speaker, how accurate and how true the words of the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. !1arshall) are in his description of the problem of The Battery. I want to say to him that, as one Minister with, certainly, some responsibility, I suppose, from the point of view of the Tourist Industry and as a former member representing the area, he can count on my support to do anything that is possible to get something done. In expressing my support, Mr.

Speaker, I draw to the attention of the House - I think, to some degree, as the member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) h~s done - for too long the Battery problem has been kicked around, and usually during Municipal elections, because the initiative must come, Mr. Speaker, from the St. John's Municipal Council. It goes without saying that the project to correct the problems there is a monumental one and cannot be done solely by the City. But, nevertheless, Sir, the initiative must come from the City, be it a Municipal, Federal and Provincial plan or project, or whatever. Mr.

Speaker, there must be twenty volumes of Hansard in the nine years that I represented the area, where those matters - the same issues that we are talking about today - were brought to the attention of the House and to the attention of

May 18, 1977 Tape 2928 RT-3 MR. HICKEY: the City. Scores of meetings with the City, and still nothing done, Mr. Speaker. You ~ow, there might be some cotnical things about The Battery area, but I assure hon. members that the rock that the member from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) re~ers to is not very comical. It is still there, and it was held there by a chain. And how those people slept at night is certainly beyond me. We all know of the landslide - the snowslide - at the Battery some years ago.

There was a tragedy, and it raises the question as to how long more we are going to wait to see if yet another tragedy will occur. So, I want to say to my friend from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) that I will accompany him to the City if necessary, to meet with the City, and to do anything humanly possible to bring about a solution.

-·-·-----· --- ----- - ---- ------ - - - - --. ·- ·-· May 18, 1977 Tape 2929- . JM- 1 MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the late Ray Riche was mentioned by someone or other and probably no great~~_indi~dual_ played ~ greater role in attempting to get something done to solve the problems of ~he Battery than the late ·Ray Riche. And I recall as member for the district at the time meeting the han. Mr. Robichaud~who was then a Federal Minister of Fisheries,and in Mr. Riche's own manner and in his own way of describing things and it was comical, Mr.

Speaker, it was very funny at the time in putting forward the case to the Federal minister,Mr. Riche~and as only he could in a kind of rough and ready, fishermanlike way whi'ch says something about the culture of Newfoundland said to the minister,"! have two questions for you, Sir. One,are you going to do anything for _the Battery~and two,are you not going to do anything for the Battery? You know, Mr. Speaker, that might have been comical but it summed up the whole case for the Battery because,as the late Mr.

Riche was saying in so many words th~t look, we have been toyed with long enough and we have been bluffed long enough; for God sake tell us once and for all if indeed you are going to do anything. So, Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of pleasure that I add my support and say to my colleague from St. John's East that he can count on me for whatever I can do to bring about a solution to the problem. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I should like also to go on record as supporting this petition presented by the hon. member for St.

John's East and I do so for a number of reasons. One is a very personal, selfish reason and that is because my father was born and raised in the Battery and my grandfather spent from the time he was around sixteen or seventeen years old until his death in the Battery. He fished out of the Battery all his life and having been down there because it has some personal importance to me and seeing the condition of the area I can only heartily endorse the prayer of the petition. Secondly,! wish to support the petition because I did attend a public meeting a

May 18, 1977 Tape 2929 JM- 2 MR. PECKFORD: couple of years ago when I was Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing at the o~d ~ishop Field School when the present NIP programme from St. John's East was being discussed and at that public meeting a group from the Battery were in attendence and were lobbying to have some NIP money spent in their area. I think at that time the St. John's East area did not include the hon. member's district. Bu~ because the St.

John's East NIP and RAP programme has been so successful due in large measure to the hon. member whom I have heard a number of people say in the last few weeks because of this NIP and RAP programme in St. John's East that it should be renamed the Marshall Plan. I do not know if we can have that done through CMHC and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PECKFORD: But in any case it is now time in my opinion after listening to the people of the Battery at that public meeting, after now recognizing the need that did exist in then St.

John's East area that it be extended to the area of the Battery for all the reasons given by all the han. members and also to clean up the whole area down there. Most people tell me that,and some people that I know down there after I indicated to them the interest that I had that my grandfather lived there and my father and so on, that there is a lot of independent people down there. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, I should put it on the record I suppose, my grandfather who was a fisherman had the first motorized inshore fishing vessel in Newfoundland and the han. member for Twillingate in one of his books has made mention of that fact. MR. HICKMAN: MR. PECKFORD: MR. LUNDRIGAN: What was your grandfather's name? Oh, Joseph Peckford. Uncle Joe was it? MR. PECKFORD: Uncle Joe. He had the first motorized inshore fishing boat in Newfoundland and he was a resident of the Battery. For all these reasons I heartily endorse the prayer of the petition presented by the member for St. John's East.

--------~--~----------- May 18, 1977 Tape 2929 SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, having listened with interest to the eloquence and conviction of the gentleman from Green Bay and the gentleman from St. John's East Extern, both of them commenting upon the pet:i tio.n presented by the gentleman from St. John's East, I just want to simply say that we support the petition. My colleague from Conception Bay South has spoken and stated our position. I do not need to add to it. I think what I should say is this, that as the JM- 3

- -·- ·-~ .. - --·-·- ·-- ----· ~ -- - ·--...... . -------------~ -- ..... ·--·-·.:~·---~~-_ ..... ___ ......._,,........._....,_~·-· -·--· ,.;. ....... ~ ·-· May 18' 1977. Tape 2930 RH- 1 MR. ROBERTS : gentleman from LaPoile(Mr. Neary) said in his remarks, Sir, there has been a great deal of lip service about the Battery. It is a perennial that comes up every municipal general election, We are ·getting nearer to another general election. So it is coming up again. It is time that we had some remedy as well as the problem. The problem is well rehearsed • . What is needed now is the remedy.

The remedy is obviously at hand in the neighbourhood impFovement programme, the NIP programme which is offered by Central Mortgage and Housing in co-operation with our own housing corporation. HR. PECKFORD: By the way~it does include the inf~astructural basis - MR. ROBERTS: It does. ~. PECKFORD: Yes. MR.. ROBERTS : Oh yes, yes! I thank the gentleman from Green Bay(Mr. Peckford), Sir. I agree with him.

It does include loans, I believe, to the municipal body in this case, the city council, to allow them to improve the infrastructure which is the $1.50 word for water and sewer lines and street improvements and what have you. But I think the whole thing could be summed up very succintly, Sir. We have had enough lip service. What we need now is some ~IP service.

And I hope that the result of this debate in the House will be a strong request for the Minister of Municipal Affairs to the council,which is an independent body but which operates by virtue of act of this House and operates - to use a phrase that the council may find offensive although they ought not to because it is not an offensive phrase - operates, as does any municipality,as a creature of the Province because in law that is what the municipalities are. I would hope the Minister of Municipal Affairs will be in touch with the city council at an early date to urge them to extend the St.

John 1 s East NIP area or to create another NIP area, whichever is the appropriate technique so that the people of the Battery at long last can see some improvements.

May 18, 1977. Tape 2930 RH- 2 MR. ROBERTS: I cannot claim any grandfatherly or fatherly connection with the Battery. But I have a certain awareness of events there, a certain connection with it. And I think it not only is a very historic area, it· is a very scenic area and very much part, Sir, of the'attraction that makes St. John's the city she is. And I think it is something we should preserve, enhance and defend in courage. And I would hope, Sir, that the result of this particular interlude in the House will be the achievement of those goals, Sir. I support the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Consumer Affairs • _____ _._. . RON. A. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, if I may, I would like to add my support also. It is a rather coincidence in two areas because of the fact L~at this is clean-up week for the Province of Newfoundland as far as the Department of Environment is concerned, and we will certainly do all we can to see that the harbour is cleaned up. And perhaps after the great announcement made about how quiet the St. John's members are, perhaps this might be another occasion where we broke our silence and perhaps put some of the things that are needed in St. John's on the record.

But I can only say·, Sir, I cannot add too much to what the other gentleman has said. But the need is great. What the cures are, I do not know. I have heard it debated for many years. I attended many meetings in Ray Rich's rooms out there, his fish flakes out in the Battery about their problems. They say it is impossible to put water and sewerage there, so on and so forth, But I certainly say that anything I can do in my capacity as Environment Minister to clean up the harbour, we will certainly do, Sir. And it will require perhaps co-operation from the Federal Government.

And I can only pledge to the hon. member for St. John's East(Mr. Marshall) my support and anything that he feels we can do for him I will only be too happy to co-operate with him.

May 18, 1977. Tape 2930 RH- 3 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for St. John's South. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my voice also in support of the petition presented by the member for St. John's East(Mr. Marshall) and I do so most heartily. I also take this opportunity to speak about their neighbours across the harbour, that is the citizens of St. John's who live in the Fort Amherst area. They have much the same problem as the people in the Upper and Lower Battery. Both areas reach well back into the history of the city,as has been mentioned.

They had a tremendous amount, I think, of the character of this city. And it is a great shame - and I think this is something perhaps a bit peculiar to Newfoundlanders - it is a great shame that these areas have not been made into areas of tourist attraction, historic import and generally adding to the amenities of the city. I would certainly hope that both sides of the harbour can be cleaned up, can be made more attractive, that there can be greater facilities put out there. In saying that I think we would be fooling ourselves if we said that certainly putting facilities out there was an easy thing to do.

In the Fort Amherst area I have heard it quoted that it would take something like $10,000 per household to bring water to the area. And as we know it ~as

May 18, 1977. n Tape 2931 RH -- 1 DR. COLLINS: mentioned in the House a little while ago, we have to look at these horrendous costs very carefully. This was mentioned in a debate a short time ago when resettlement came up. And one of the solutions to that problem has been the suggestive resettlement of people from these two parts of the city to areas of the city more easily serviced. I do not know if that is the answer. I certainly would hate to see the Battery and Fort Amherst abandoned. I think they have too much to offer to the city. I think it is interesting to note, Xr.

Speaker, that in the Fort Amherst area there was water at one time. When the Canadian Armed Forces had an establishment out there they had water over- land. I believe it was one a heated conduit, and that this was very successful. But when the Canadian Armed Forces abandoned the facility this was allowed to deteriorate and of course it is no longer available to the citizens out there now. So, Mr. Speaker, I certainly do support the petition brought forth by the member. And I hope that it will receive attention and that the entrance to the city of St.

John's from the harbour on both sides will become beautified and a better place to live in. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: This takes care of all of it, all the ones on the order paper. I wish to table answers to questions no. 169 and 231 asked by the hon. member for LaPoile(Mr, Neary), I hereby table them. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, can I ask the hon. member what time I am goi_ng to get the answer to the question I asked ·-about the free bus service provided by Newfoundland Hydro? MR. PECKFORD: At once, Mr. Speaker.

May 18, 1977. Tape 2931 RH- 2 ORAL QUESTIONS: MR.. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: In the absence of the Premier~who I understand is about matters of an uxorial nature, perhaps . I could ask a question of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs in the hope that he •rill be a little more responsible as well as responsive than his colleague, the Minister of Mines and Energy. The question arises out of our dealings with Ottawa and the· Lower Churchill project.

Can the minister tell us,please,what response the government have received from the Government of Canada in response to our most recent request for assistance \rith the development of the Lower Churchill? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. ~. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, there are negotiations ongoing with the Federal Government as it relates to the Lower Churchill and other matters dealing with the potential for hydro development in Labrador. Nothing specific or definitive can be said at this time because negotiations are still ongoing relative to it. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Can the minister tell the House,please?when our request for · assistance was submitted, to whom it was submitted and perhaps at the same time tell us what are we seeking? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR.. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give any specific information on those matters at the present moment. As I indicated in my former answer, we are in discussions with Energy, Mines and Resources and other related departments as it relates to development in Labrador right now. And I would not like to say anything more on it. ~. ROBERTS: A further supplementary.

The minister is being most uncommunicative, whether by design or by accident, I do not know. Could he tell us whether his reluctance to answer is related to the

May 18, 1977. Tape 2931 RH- 3 MR. ROBERTS: state of affairs disclosed in the House of Commons yesterday by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources in Ottawa in response to a question Mr. Jack Marshall, in which it was revealed that the Government of Canada have been waiting for the last six weeks for specific proposals from the government of this Province with respect to assistance and request for assistance for the Lower Churchill project? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. ~.

PECKFORD: If the response from the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources in Ottawa is anythi~g similar or comparable with a statement that he made as he toured over the Alaska highway pipeline alternative, one can put very little creditibility in any statements that that han. minister might make. Let me say to the han. Leader of the Opposition that the meetings that I have had with ~rr. Gillespie, which have been very informative and very friendly, that I thought we both understood our positions,and that ongoing discussions would · be held between officials and myself with him, Mr.

Gillespie,and his officials on the whole business of power development in Labrador. And I am extremely surprised and it was the first time I heard that that kind of reaction from the

May 18, 1977 MR. PECKFORD: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Tape 2932 JM- 1 Federal minister was made in the House of Commons. A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary~ the hon. Leader of the 0pposition. Mr.

Speaker, could the minister tell us whether there have been any specific or detail .ed requests for assistance made to Ottawa in respect of the Lower Churchill project since the Government of Canada announced a year or more ago that they were prepared to provide, I think at that time it was $343 million,which was half the estimated cost of the transmission lines from the Gull project here to the Island and then feed into the grid?

Have there been any requests for assistance made other than these nebulous aiscussions which themlnister apparently at Ottawa feels are mere talk awaiting receipt of proposals from our government, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, it really,you know,aggrevates me to think that the Leader of the Opposition is really serious on this very important matter. And I can understand why he is, really 1 because of those kinds of answers coming out of the House of Commons yesterday.

In that sense I can, in that context~but you know all - I can say is that various alternatives or projects or whatever are being discussed between the two governments at this present moment as to ongoing development in Labrador as it relates to hydro power. And that is a fact and I can further elaborate for the han. - MR. ROBERTS : No specific requests have been made? MR. PECKFORD: Yes, specific alternatives as to how development should proceed as it relates to hydro development in Labrador are ongoing with the Federal Government through Energy, Mines and Resources and have been for the last six or eight weeks.

MR. ROBERTS: Either the minister here or the minister in Ottawa is wrong. MR. PECKFORD: Well, you can pick your choice, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Well I have. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the han. gentleman for Conception Bay South. Before the hon. gentleman asks his question

May 18, 1977 Tape 2932 JM -- 2 MR. SPEAKER: I should say that the students in the gallery have been joined by six students from Gamba- Dark Cove, the Dark Cove Junior High School accompanied by their teacher,Mr. Brian Keough,and on behalf of bon. members I welcome them also to the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the Premier from the House who has stepped out for a moment would the Government House Leader, the Minister of Justice, acting Premier, tell the House who is looking after the Linerboard mill in the absence of the Minister of Finance, the Chairman of the board of the Linerboard Mill? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I know that the han. the Premier: has been taking a very active interest~and say two other of my colleagues who are on the board of Linerboard and also my colleague, the han. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR.

NEARY: Well, Sir, a supplementary question. Perhaps the Minister of Public Works and Services could tell the House,now that the word is gone out from one end of this earth to the other that the Linerboard mill in Stephenville is going to be phased down in six months, would the minister tell the House if there are any proposals from any individuals, companies, corporations or countries to take over and operate the Linerboard mill? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that various indications have been given in the House that some proposals had been verbally received. Of course,as my colleague, the hon. Minister of Justice, said - I think it was -that we would crawl to the door for anybody who wanted to take over the Labrador Linerboard mill operation. We have had some unofficial verbal inquiries but at this point in time whether to say anything would develop into a concrete proposal or not is beyond _my ability. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question for the hon. the Premier, Sir. Would the hon. the Premier tell the House if any serious proposals have

May 18, 1977 Tape 2932 JM- 3 MR. NEARY: been made to the hon. the Premier in connection with taking over and operating the Linerboard mill at Stephenville? MR. -SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The situation is, Mr. Speaker, serious. I do not want that to __ be _taken~_u~ _C?f_~ontext.The fact is that,yes,there have been verbal interest shown, there has been verbal interest shown in the project. There are some people coming in next week to talk about it. The ironic thing is there seems to be more interest since the announcement than there ever was before.

I was taking to the member from Stephenville yesterday on what I had to say here before about the committee meeting. I have had a chance to do some checking on it since. There will be a group in next week and what they will have to propose,if anything~will have to wait for their arrival 1and equally I have a meeting in Montreal in about ten days time to meet with another group on the same subject. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Would the hon. the Premier indicate whether there has been a proposal from the Republic of Korea,and if that is the group that will be coming to meet with the Premier and the government next week? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, no it is not the Korean

May 18, 1977 Tape 2933 LB-1. of the Board . Is the Premier handling the negotiations in connection with the Linerboard mill personally? }1R. SPEAKER: H on • the Premier . PRE1~ER ~OORES: I am involved,Mr. Speaker,but the fact is of course that the advisory board is set up for th~s particular purpose. People may contact us but it is the advisory board who are making up the final papers on what they are going to recommend. They will also be listening to proposals from various interested people and hopefully part of their final proposal will include just exactly what the options are in all aspects.

MR.SPEAKER: Hon. ~ember for Conception Bay South followed by the hon. member for Lewisporte. }ffi.NOIJU~: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communication. For some t~e the Safety Council members on this side and members on his own side over the years~I can think,as well · as columnists, broadcasters and so on who are attempting to find some way to see if something cannot be done about the point system, as it is known,in so far as traffic violations and so on are concerned.

Now maybe I should be addressing this question to the Minister of Justice and if so perhaps the Minister of Transportation could coreect me on it and I would certainly be permitted to do so. One •. what efforts have been made recently in this regard? Are we still just talking about it or are we going to do

Hay 18, 1977 Tape 2933 LB-2 • . MR.NOLAN: anything? Where are we now in relation to a point system for traffic violations in this province similar to what they have in much of North America and the World for that matter? MR.SPEAKER: Hon. Minister for Transportation. MR.MORGAN: Hr: Speaker, we are giving serious consideration,and more than just consideration.

What I have done now in the Deoartment of Transportation and Communications, I have established a committee chaired by the registrar of motor vehicles to analyze and scrutinize the systems now used in most all of the provinces in Canada, except there is only one province now using a peint s~stem other than Newfoundland and Labrador. That is the Province of Saskatchewan. We are looking at two things. We are changing the driver's license system to a classified driver's license. Two, we are looking at a point system known as a merit or de-~erit.

Some provinces use a de-merit system,where they have to start off in an established number of points and take away from that according to the number of traffic violations etc. So, it is a hope now that the department, myself as the minister,to be in the position to introduce legislation this session, to do these two things, one, establish a c:assified driver's license system; two, a point system for the province. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member. ~1R.NOLAN: A supplementary Mr. Speaker.

I am ~.rendering if the minister is in a position to tell us." if from his discussion or information that he might have derived fr.om other provinces whether this S¥Stem ~vould in any way assist people with their insurance. Would it make any difference ~vith the premiums? I mean,you have a very definite record there; I suppose to some extent you have it now. I am wondering to what extent it will be of some benefit to residents. It will certainly be a benefit to the Justice Department~ Transportation Department and so on. Motor Registrar.

But what benefits will there be available to people as a result of the inauguration of this system in this province?

May 18, 1977 Tape 2933 LB-3. MR.SPEAKER: Han. Minister. ~·l!t.1·10RGA:~; Hr. Speaker, it is obvious that the studies and work we have carried out to date, it is obvious to us that:_ there is definite advantages to· the motorists because it clearly points out to the insurance companies who are, for_example, the greater.risk. Therefore that kind of system when it is brought into effect will obviously benefit the driver by means of cheaper insurance policies. MR. NOLA..~: A supplementary. I1R.SPEAKER: A s~pplementary.

MR.NOLAN: I do not mean to press the minister on this,but the minister just made a statement now that I am sure he must be awarE of the importance of it, because has he had some assurance from the insurance companies that it is going to make a difference? You know,we have heard these things before, not from the Hinister, and I am not trying to put him on the spot~ maybe he has been led in that direction,but I think it is ~portant to realize that if we are going with this in effect you are doing, you are creating permanent records whic would be a beaefit to his department~the motor registration and so on.

You are aiso keeping records that will be a benefit to the insurance companies.· Therefore I say are they going to put up and pass any benefits on to the consumer~ ~ffi.SPEAKER:Hon. minister. ~.MORGAN: Ur:: Speaker, I am unable to assure the han. gentleman that the insurance companies will pass along any benefits to the drivers but I sincerely hope that, of course,we ~vill make every attempt and discuss the matter with the insurance companies or the insurance bureau

May 18, 1977~ Tape 2934 RH- 1 MR. MORGAN: before bringing in that kind of a system, that they will take into consideration that the good drivers,and those showing with the good points in the point system, that they can gain some benefit by means of having their insurance polic;ie~less costly than they are now. MR. NOLAN: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplemen-tary, then the hon. member for Lewisport e. MR. NOLAN: Just one final note on this point,and that is I believe that many corporations are using government gathered information for their own benefit and purposes, fine.

Now then, is there any reason when the minister has this information and the demerit or point system set up, if the insurance companies will not pass on any benefits that they should, why can we not merely charge them( If they want infor­ mation on a driver~let us soak them for it and not give it to them for nothing • . SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.. ROBERTS : MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: There is a question in that. Just an argumental point. The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, a question for the gentleman from Grand Falls in his role as the Minister of Industrial Development.

And it is in connection with all the people who are about to leave Goose Bay when the William Carson starts to operate. I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether any assistance has been provided or whether any assistance is being sought from the Dutch gentleman, Mr. Van Beke with respect to the woods operation in Goose Bay? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.. LUNDRIGAN: Am I correct in assuming the member said, was there any assistance requested from Mr. Van Beke. MR. WHITE: Or any provided, yes.

May 18, 1977. Tape 2934 RH- 2 MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of companies that have requested assistance that have skidders, that have difficulty in meeting their skidder costs that has been looked at by the Department of Rural Development. Mr. Van Beke, I believe,has made an application for an ARDA III grant and he has made other inquiries. MR. WRITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. WRITE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could indicate to the House whether or not from his knowledge at the moment there is any possibility of large scale employment with Mr.

Van Beke in the Goose Bay operation as a result of discussions he has held? MR. SPEARER: The hen. minister. MR.. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Van Beke came to us about a year ago approximately and made a proposal to harvest the selected amount of pulp that went out of Goose Bay-Happy Valley area. There was an agreement made with government that if he were to meet the preliminary conditions of the first and second years of harvest of a selected amount of timber, that we would extend his authority to get involved in manufacturing.·- - if he were to come forward with a detailed proposal.

Respecting the harvest.,to date he has made some effort and fairly deligent . effort. I believe he has spent upwards of a half million dollars throughout the Province and some of it, a good bit of it in Goose Bay - Happy Valley area with a small number of people involved. He seems to have operated independently. He has not received any assistance from government to date. Now as far as his plans or whether he is capable of putting together a larger enterprise, we are not in the position to make that determination at the moment. But he certainly has shown a good deal of grit up to this particular moment.

Another side of the story, Mr. Speaker, we have just approved in excess of $100,000 to have a very professional assessment done of the feasibility of a woods related industry for the Goose Bay-Happy Valley

May 18, 197T. Tape 2934 RH- 3 MR. LUNDRIGAN: area and the details of that will be announced in the next few days. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister tell us whether he will be helping individuals, and there are a few individuals left in the Goose Bay area who awn their skidders and various other equipment which are now being recalled by the companies which they financed th~m initially. whether therp is any assistance to them as there has been previously to other companies like he mentioned who had been assisted in trying to meet their financial payments? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, this is a very complicated topic although it seems on the surface a very simple one.

Many of the companies or independent operators that had equipment did receive some kind of separation flow of funds from the Labrador Linerboard. In any event, a number of them have found themselves in very grave difficulties, some that we cannot help with the instruments of government like the Rural Development Loan Programme. But where we can apply it I have taken the position that we are going to be as flexible as we possibly can. We have helped a company in recent days with a small loan to help the leased payment problem because we believe in the operator. And we will do it within the authority that we have.

And I believe maybe in the near future there will be an announcement regarding another problem having to do with the truckers where there has been some very serious discussion to try to come up with a programme that can help the truckers that have found themselves in difficulty as well. MR. STRACHAN: Another supplementary"' MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. STRACHAN: If I could change to the Minister of Forestry on this supplementary. It·.deals with Van Beke operations. But Mr. Van Beke has now applied for a permit or is applying -

May 18,. 1977 Tape 2935 JM- 1 MR. STRACHAN: -- I:-do not know if he has applied or is applying~- -for ' a permit to cut an additjo~~ 40,000 cords of wood in that area and I wonder whether this permit has been granted and what the total amount he will now be cutting to ship wood fTOm Goose Bay to Europe. MR. SPEAKER: 'The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, the permit by Mr.

VanBeke~I understand that it has mailed but it has not reached me at this point in __ . time, and it will eventually· after going through the regional services, but we will have a look at it when it does reach me.. As to what we· can grant him I think we will have to take a very close look at the type of operation that he ran in the past before we can say definitely that we will go ahead with another permit. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice and I am asking it to the minister because I understand he is acting president of the Treasury Board in the absence of the Minister:·of Finance. Is that right or could the minister tell me who is -and I will direct the question? MR. LUNDRIGAN: That is all right you can direct it here. Mr. Peckford is,but he is out of the House. MR. RIDEOUT: But he is not here. MR. LUNDRIGAN: All right~what is the question? MR. RIDEOUT: Well, okay I will ask the Premier.

I wonder if the Premier could tell the House whether or not there are any negotiations presently ongoing, salary negotiations~between the Treasury Board and game wardens in the Province? MR. LUNDRIGAN: I will take it as notice. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes,but the Minister of Tourism does not know. He said Treasury Board - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. gentleman for Windsor-Buchans.

May 18, 1977 Tape 2935 JM- 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir, indicate to the House whether the minister has received a letter from the Ferryland Community Council in connection with constructing a breakwater in front of the resident of Mrs. Mary Williams, Freshwater, Ferry lind and. the families in that area? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not recall that piece of correspondence.

Of course I receive approximately hundreds of pieces of correspondence in a matter of a couple of days but I can check it out and check into it for the han. gentleman. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary question. Is the minister aware that the Williams' family and other families in the area are in danger, in grave danger of being washed out of their homes or even drowned in their homes with the next serious rainstorm and windstorm that may take place in Ferryland? MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I indicated I am not aware of this matter but if the matter is so urgent as the bon. gentleman indicates surely the people in Ferryland concerned could have contacted myself through a telephone message or my deputy minister or an official of the department by telephone without having to write. If the matter is urgent, Mr. Speaker, I will take the matter under advisement and I can assure the han. gentleman I will be in contact with the people concerned this afternoon. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, has the minister been advised either by telephone or in writing by the community council or by the residents of Ferryland that if a breakwater is not erected immediately part of the community could stand to be washed away,including St. Joseph's Elementary School,with the next windstorm and there are about 150 children in this

May 18, 1977 Tape 2935 JM- 3 MR. NEARY: school? Is the minister aware of that? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that piece of correspondence myself but there is appossibility that· one of the I officials in the department could be aware of it• But I will take the matter tmder advisement and I can assure the hon. gentleman: ! an~ _El_ fact . the House of Assembly that I will take immediate steps this afternoon to get the full information on this matter and to arrange to take corrective action. MR. NEARY: A s~pplementary_ question, __ Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR. ROBERTS : It is on the same letter. It has gone widespread. MR. NEARY: I was going to direct mine to< the Premier. MR. ROBERTS : Well, I am intending to direct mine to the minister and then we will work down the scale to the Premier. Mr. Speaker, along - - - ~ the lines of the same letter whi"ch has been circulated widely _ by the Ferryland Community Council - MR. MORGAN: What date is the letter? MR. ROBERTS : Well I do not know·if the bon. gentleman is - MR. NEARY: It is dated April 28th. MR. ROBERTS: April 28th.

So today being the 18th of May I would think the bon. minister has had an opportunity to get it. It has been circulated widely because obviously the Community Council of Ferryland are distraught at the lack of response they have had. Can the minister tell us, Sir, whether he or - Well he told us yesterday he does every- thing in the department anyway so - whether he consulted with the council of Ferryland - MR. MORGAN: Do not be nasty. That is - _ MR. ROBERTS: I am just quoting the hon. gentleman whether - MR. MORGAN: Well ask it properly. Do not be nasty. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I think I know how to ask the question properlr so then if Your Honour -

May 18, 1977 Tape 2935 Jm - 4 MR. MORGAN: You cannot ask. a question without being nasty. ··--- MR. ROBERTS: !f there , is any direction needed surely it is the bon. gentleman ~o answered the questiQ11. And my question is this, Sir, if the bon. gentleman will control h.imself, as difficult as that I may be for him; c.au. he tell ~ whether he consulted the Town Council of Ferryland before he decided to - Well I will read the letter, Sir, it is the b~t way to _do it.

"During last summer your department spewed pavement a;ll along the Southem Shore and some of this pavement fell in Ferryland but we are still wondering if it is proper protocol to· take over the responsibility for paving roads in a community without first--

May 18, 1977. Tape 2936 RH- 1 MR.. ROBERTS : consulting the · council of that community~' So could the minister tell us,please,whether he did in fact consult the council be£ore he spewed pavement along the Southern Shore? MR." SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, there was no pavement spewed along the Southern Shore last year. In fact,pavement in this Province is a very costly venture, paving of roads.

And I am sure the residents in the Ferryland district, in the community of FerrTland,are quite pleased to get the pavement they obtained from this administration whether it has been Ferryland or any other part of the Province. And Mr. Speaker, the decisions of the department to pave certain roads, if these roads are onder the jurisdiction of the Department of Transportation and Communications,very seldom do we consult the people, except on the request made for that kind of pavement or paving.

We do not go in and consult which roads to pave only on the basis of petitions, the need put forward by the residents and organized groups. Now, Mr. Speaker, I earlier said,and I will say it again, if there is a problem in Ferryland with regards to a potential hazard and affecting property in the area,the matter will be dealt with quite adequately this afternoon or tomorrow by myself. But I am saying now that I am not aware of that piece of correspondence myself personally. But there is a strong possibility that the officials of the department have already taken action. MR.. ROBER'RS : A supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A further supplementary, the bon. Leader of the Opposition, followed by the bon. gentleman for Windsor-Buchans who has been endeavouring to get in for some time. MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR.. SPEAKER: Thank you, Sir. The bon. gentleman - The original question was mine, Sir. Order, please! Order, please! The S~anding Order

May 18, 1977. Tape, 2936 RR- 2 MR. SPEAKER: with respect to questions is quite straightforward, the Standing Order 3l,that the Speaker permit supplementaries at his discretion. And i~ is not infrequent that a line of questioning started by one han. member'land he almos~ invariably if there are supplementaries gets additional ones,and then perhaps another hon. member also gets supplementaries on that little line of questioning. And one has to bear in mind as well in the exercise of that discretion whether there are other hon. members who for some time have been endeavouring to be recognized.

And these are the matters which the Chair has taken to its discretion. not always easy, obviously not always infalable but very few human judgments, if any, are. So I say that in explanation of the exercise of the discretion which the Standing Order requires that I use. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister may not be aware of this particular letter. I accept that. However, obviously he is aware of the situation because he wrote the council ori April 5 to deny any responsibility for the particular problem - I am sorry? MR. MORGAN: I said this letter here. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, I do not say the minister is aware of this letter. I do not know if the minister sees his letters or not. I am aware of it. My friend from LaPoile(Mr. Neary) is aware of it and so are the Evening Telegram, the Department of Municipal Affairs and the Premier, all of whom were sent copies of it. I am sorry, the gentleman from Twillingate(Mr. Smallwood) equally was sent a copy of it. The question is this, Sir; the minister has already told us that if pavement was laid it was laid on roads for which he is personally responsible as minister and not within the council's area.

Can he therefore square that with his denial of responsibility for the

May 18, 1977. Tape 2936 RH- 3 MR. ROBERTS: breakwater ,situation,given the fact that this breakwater situation is located on a road for which he has just told us he is responsible as the Minister of Transportation and Communications! How does he square the two? And if he can square it or cannot, what does he intend to do about it? Sir, the situation is serious. The council have obviously written to the minister and sent copies to a number of hon.. gentlemen simply in desperation at being unable to get any satisfaction or response from the minister. That is why we raise it now. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. MR..

MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, 'I am goingto swear on anything. I earlier said and I repeat now I will be in contact - MR. ROBERTS: (First

part inaudible.) - swear on it. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the problem as put forward to the House of Assembly by at least two hon. gentlemen now indicates, at least, unless the wrong impression is left, that this matter is a very urgent matter. MR. ROBERTS: Of course it is. MR. MORGAN: So because of that, Mr. Speaker, this afternoon, in fact as soon as Question Period is over,I will make contact by telephone with the council chairman this afternoon to determine what corrective action we can take. And that is based on the impression left with me that the matter is a very urgent one. MR. ROBERTS: Sure it is urgent.

MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hen. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: My.question~ Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Tourism. In view of the fact that the deadline for applications for big game license is this coming Friday, the deadline for the receipt of applications,- MR. HICKEY: I cannot hear you. MR. FLIGHT: In view of the fact that the deadline for the

May 18, 1977, Tape 2937, Page 1 apb MR.- FLIGHT: · receipt . of applications for big game licences is this Friday coming, would the minister indicate to the HQuse if the department has experienced any p_~ o?lems in dealing with:applicants and if there has been a request for an extension of that deadline? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: I am not aware of any problems, Mr. Speaker, and I am also not aware of any requests for extensions.

If there are cases because of the system that we have put into effect where people have not had a reasonable opportunity to get an application in, then certainly I am prepared to take a look at it. MR. F:LIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister indicate if he is in a position to tell the House whatthe comparison is . this year with the number of applications as compared to the same time last year? M.R. SPEAKER: The hon.the Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker.

I have not had a count as to how many applications were received to date because,as my hon. friend realizes,! am sure, the applications are being received all over the Province, and it will be some time before I will have ·- any indication as to the total number. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: It being Private Members' Day, the debate on Motion 12. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, speaking on this motion regarding joint ventures is something that,I think, -cuts a lot _further than just the joint venture ~on~ept or

May 18, 1977, Tape 2937, Page 2 -- apb P.REMIER MOORES: the experiment of it last year. The fact is that we are talking about the fishery and the future of it and in which direction we will go. Mr. Speaker, talking about the fishery in this Province, I think it is fair to say if r can be heard, Sir - it is fair to say that one of the very first reasons for settling in this Province was the fact that there was a fishery here.

The people who came here in the early days to settle the Province and to - whether they were from the p_E~s~- gangs for naval training ~ and when settlement was allowed, I suggest the reason they stayed was because of the fish a~ailability · heEe ·, and at that time vi'rtually· · :nothing else. Mr. Speaker, with the situation as I just briefly put forward, the real first industrialization of the Province, other than the fishery, of course, was the coming of the, I guess, pulp and paper mills, first of all in 1905, and 1923 after that.

The first mining in the Province was in 1895 on Bell Island and that,not being a renewable resource of course, is now over. The fact is that from time to ~ime there have been other developments. Some have been good and same have been bad. But today, I would suggest, even though it has never been given the attention it should have been, circumstances have been such as to have - ---.made it very difficult, but the fact is that the fishery today is still the largest employer of people in the Province.

It does not pay the most wages, it does not have the greatest income from the primary producer, but the fact is there are some 20,000 people in the fishery versus 7,000 in mining and 7,000 in f·orestry. This means, of course, that whilst the numbers are large, also for the first time, the opportunities are even larger. Mr. Speaker, the 20,000 people presently in the fishery are not, of course,

May 18, 1977·, Tape 2937, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: fully occupied. The fact is that at the present time · of those 20,000, I would suggest, the great majority are on seasonal employment, both the fishermen and the worker. But, Sir, with the 200 mile limit this can and should change radically. This will happen if the whole problem is approached properly. And that is something that is going to take great care, a ~reat deal of thought, both at the level of the primary prod~c~ft. himself, the level of the union, the industry and the two levels of government in particular.

The fact is, Sir, that presently there are 12,000 inshore fishermen in our Province of one kind and another. I think the number of 12,000 is indeed large because, whilst we have longliner fishermen, we have people who genuinely are fishermen. I suggest we have a percentage of· that 12,000, at least, I do not know how large, who literally fish for stamps for eight weeks,then they- and· I do not say this derogatorily, I am just saying it for explanation of the large number of people called inshore fishermen ..

May 18, 1977, Tape 2938, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES : But of the 12,000, of course, there are a lot of bona fide fishermen as well. There are _-!_,_~0- 0 men in our deep-sea fleet off shore, and there are some - - -·-- . __ 6,500_in __ the fis)l_2_lAI1_~s. But, Sir, whilst there --are·J .. ,_500 men involved in the deep - sea fishery - -. - -- versus 12,000 on shore, the ironic thing is that 50 per cent of the fish landed in the Province is from the deep-sea effort and 50 per cent from the inshore effort.

So I think that illustrates that with in this case virtually just one-tenth or 12 per cent of the fisher.men,the offsh9re effort is indeed much more efficient than most of our inshore fleet. Sir, what I want to talk about now is what has happened to the stock and why conservation is at this time so badly needed. Now that we have the 200 mile limit,the first and last, really I suppose, priority has to be conservation of the stock itself. Because if we review the figures and what happened over the years, first of all for many, many centuries, I suppose, the fish in this Province came to us.

We were on this rock or on the Coast of Labrador - still rocks - we· set out our nets or our traps and the fish swam into where we--were and it was a convenient, if difficult, but convenient way of catching fish. After the Second World War, of course, Europe needing food, needing development, needing to expand its fishery, which was always great, decided to go further afield because their stocks were getting less.

And the very heavily industrialized pa~t_of our world, probably today the most heavily industrialized including the United States, these countries, Russia, Germany, Poland, Spain, France, Portugal, all these countries mobilized what was probably·the greatest armada, in our terms, that ever went to sea.

May 18, 1977, Tape 2938, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: The fact is that they needed fish as a protein food, they needed fish primarily because they liked it as a source of food. They enjoy~d eating fish as opposed to,~~s being a ~heap meal, or in those days, a Friday. The fact is they built fleets to hunt fish, -~~g __ I mean to go where the fish was as· opposed to the fish coming to them. And with, of course, the effort that countries such as that had behin4 them, it m~ant that the technology they developed was such as to be very, very efficient.

Even on something as uncertain and as unlikely as the oceans and the seabed, the fact is- they became very proficient indeed. As an illustration of that, Sir, before getting to what happened to the conservation~­ ! might say on the newest German trawler that we toured this year in Bremerhaven, the boat had an electronic

section of the bridge - and I think this will be of interest to the member for Burin - Placentia West, it was incredible to me - whereby t?ey not just had the fish-finder for the fish down below, they also had it horizontally.

J:.Iid --when the net found the fish there were two items on top of the head-rope- one gave you the measurement of exactly what tonnage of fish went into your net, and they would know exactly when to haul the net back because they knew how many tons were in it; but even more incredibly they had an acoustic device on the head-rope that told you by the sound of the fish going in what type of fish it was. They would tow on this - MR. H. COLLINS: PREMIER MOORES: MR. H. COLLINS: PREMIER MOORES: Now this I found amazing. What is this? They could tell by the sound. Is that right? Yes.

They would tow for maybe an hour or an hour and-a-half, whatever the case may be.

May 18, 1977, Tape 2938, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: If they had a good catc~ of fish the computer and the compass and the electronic equipment on board that boat - they literally had to pre~§_ one button and the boat would go on an automatic pilot the same as an aircraft, take the currents, take the whole thing into consideration, but because of the --- - . bottom contour, electronically that computer would take that ship back over exactly the same ground that they just came over without human hands touching it.

I think, Sir, what I am illustrating here is that the fish really did not have much chance when you had that sort of technology applied to it. But g~tting back to conservation: In 1961, there were ~.4 billio~ - p~unds of all species caught in the ICNAF area, that is the North West Atlantic that we are primarily concerned about. The 2.4 billion pounds was made up of

May 18, 1877 Tape: · 2939 JM- 1 PREMIER MOORES: 1. 3 billion pounds of cod, which was by far the biggest specie involved and of course was primarily caught by these European nations I am talking about. In 1968 that 2.4 billion pounds had gone up to 4.6 billion pounds of fish. Now, Sir, that is one heck of a lot of fish·. Of that 4. 6 billion pounds of course cod was two billion pounds of it. Still a large percentage, but nothing like before. From 1968 the stocks obviously started to go down. The catches went from 4 • 6 bill ion pounds to 3. 8 billion pounds and the quota this year is 1.8 billion pounds.

Now we have gone from 4.6 billion pounds in 1968 down to 1.8 billion pounds this year. I suggest, Sir, that is a radical reduction when you consider 800 million pounds of that is caplin, but even more interesting!! is that there is only 400 million pounds of cod in that particular figure which I think illustrates two things: First of all, the cod supply is by far the most seriously affected by the Europeans of the catches, and secondly that within that 400 million pounds there is a fantastic demand when you consider that is all that is being caught where two billion pounds were being caught just eight years ago.

The fact is that with these reductions from 4.6 billion pounds down to 1.8 billion, as I say 800 million pounds of that is caplin, the quota system that is being set down now by the scientists, and ICNAF, and by Canada in particular, I do not think there is any question_whatsoever but they do have a true conservation figure to allow the stocks of the various fish to regrow. Sir, the need is obvious for the conservation measures. The steps have been taken; as I say, less than fifty per cent of what it was a y~r ago. It has to be strictly enforced.

The limits themselves must be strictly enforced ana the only way you will ever enforce those totally is when it is totally Canadian effort, because as- iong as the Europeans are fishing off the coast, unless you have observers aboard every boat, there is no way that you can govern how much by-catch flounder is being caught with the cod, how much of it is being thrown overboard, or in fact what mesh size they use or for that matter how much fish they actually take.

Hay 18, 1977 Tape 2939 P'P-EMIER MOORES : Now, Sir, unless- this· is done, unless the 200 mile limit is enforced and the conservation quotas are enforced,all is for naught. We must assume controls. We must take over the control of the Con~nental_Shelf and we as Canada must be totally responsible for the enforcement •. SO~E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER MOORES: Now the Federal Government had many obligations and we have had a very co-operative effort on this thing so far~but there is one area ~ere they have first and foremost priority · and without the lack of planning for the future~or if not the lack of certainty· in what direction we may be going,there is one thing that is absolute and that is not that we have quotas established, limits established,that the first and prime requisite of the Federal Government is to ensure that those quotas are adhered to and that limit is very strictly enforced.

JM- 2 Now, Sir, the 'fact is that the conservation levels, as I say, have been reduced dramatically.

They must be in place for a year .or two before the stocks themselves actually grow,but if we take the conservation level,and we have all talked about it in this House, the closing of the Hamilton Banks or sharpely reducing the quantity there or whatever areas we take where conservation is going to be drastically reduced, the fact is, Sir, that the more of that that is done the quicker the stock will grow=~ - But whether it is done slowly or whether it is done quickly the fact is, and this isirrefutable, Sir, is that these stocks ~rill grow•; It is only a matter of time, whether it is four years if there is strigent measures taken now,or seven or eight years if it is a more slow process,but the one thing in my opinion that is absolutely irrefutable is the fact that the sto~~s of fish will come back.

And what I am saying.is, Sir, is when they do come back we as a Province particularily and we as a country also of course have to be ready and have our planning done and have everything in motion to take advantage of it.

May 18, 1977 Tape 2939 JM- 3 PREMIER MOORES: Now conservation is being -~rried out and I think - If you want to take, as I have mentioned briefly earlier, the examole where we hav~ been affected most dramatically is on the cod fishery to the East, to a degree to· the South but particularly to the North. In 1968 for instance, Sir, the Russians were allowed 300 million pounds of cod from that: area and they have gone from 300 million pounds to 60 million pounds in 1917. The Spanish have gone from 270 million pounds to 60 million pounds this year.

The Germans from 120 million pounds down to 25 million pounds, and the Portuguese 300 million pounds and this year they ~e allowed 60 million pounds. So I do not think, Sir, that there is any doubt but conservation measures are being· taken and fairly drastically. The other thing I think we have to realize,and I think we have to understand the Federal Government's position, the other thing we have to realize is that the European effort •.rill not -be phased out overnight.

I mean I am sure if every member in this House or every member of this Province had their way this would be a Canadian, totally Canadian identity tomorrow morning. But the fact is the European fleets will not be phased out overnight. I think they should be phased out as quickly as possible,but the fact is that there are bilaterals signed •vith most of these countries and when we are talking bilaterals we are talking~of course,government to government on a national level and that I am sure includes other trade considerations. There is bound to be other trade considerations.

You just do not take another country and say, We are cutting you off one thing but we would like you to buy more wheat or whatever it. is of something else. We have a very vested interest here but I 'vould say, facing reality, that it is unlikely that the European effort is going to be,as I say,closed out tomorrow morning. It is going to phased out as quickly as possible but it is still going to take,in my opinion,two, three or four years.

The other reason, of course, that they have to be concerned about the speed in which the Europeans phase out is because there is still a considerable amount of ground outside the 200 mile .. .._ ,.._

}f_ay 18' 1977 Tape 2939 PREMIER MOORES : limit and this of course is particularily the Southern edge, the Eas tern edge of the Grand Falls , the Flemish Cap. I would guess these as the thr ee area s mostly affected but of course the re is no Canadian jur isdicti on JM- 4

May 18, 1977 Tape 2940 PREMIER MOORES : there and unless we can get the co-operation of the Europeans so that we can patrol that for conservation purposes as well, unless we get that co-operation they are then free to catc4 whatever specie~is there without any reference to Canada. They can have bycatches, they can abuse whatever reg~ations are made with absolutely no recall to our own government. ~~d I think co-operation is certainly at this stage ·. ~ch more important than just, as I say, going in and kicking them out without proper justification or without proper consultation.

Now, Sir, I think at this time we should review our policy objectives as to the problems and opportunities that we have. The Newfoundland harvesting· capacity both inshore and offshore should be expanded in order to allow the orderly displacement of foreign effort and to ensure that our fishermen can derrive maximum benefit from the 200 mile limit. I think that is a statement ~ that JM- 1 once again is a 'motherhood', if you like, but I think it is very important that it and others be said.

It must be our objective to process the catch as much as possible in this Province and to ensure that our products.are fully processed and are of high quality. Now in the past, ~r. Speaker, we have been many times I suppose been blamed for not doing more reprocessing,but in a great many cases the blame should not be directed totally to the industry here because the fact is that there have been high tariffs . In the United States there are much higher tariffs on processed food as opposed to the raw material block,for instance,in the frozen food example of going in there.

One I think is a cent and a half a pound or a cent a pound and the other is fifteen per cent. Europe has never been a big market for frozen Newfoundland fish. It has for salt,but one thing that c.omes out of this I think that is interesting.,when we talk about having fish fully processed here at present there is a fifteen per cent tariff in Europe on all fish products and in the United States,as I said,there is a fifteen per cent tariff on cooked products or reprocessed products.

May 18, 1977 Tape 2940 JM- 2 PREMIER MOORES : Now I think we have to negotiate in Europe bilaterally as far ' as tariffs are concerned and the reason I say that is because whilst the ICNAF negotiations are desirable, they are ongoing, the one thing you can say is that they are very slow and the fact is that there is no reason for us to assume that they are ever going .to be much faster.

But Norway and Iceland both when they had their 200 mile limits negotiated with the EEC, before they had closed off their waters totally they said,'"' Okay, in order for you to catch so much fish you are phasing out by X year; in order for that to happen you are going to need the fish that you would normally get from our area anyway so we want prefere~tial treatment for our tariffs~' The fact is today that Norway and Iceland are the two countries outside the European common market that in fact have a three per cent tariff where the rest of the world have a fifteen per cent tariff.

I am suggesting that at this stage we are in a better position to bargain for futu~e supply of market. Ottawa is to reduce that fifteen per cent tariff to the three per cent tariff like Norway and Iceland did. I say we are in a better position to do that now than possibly ever before. The fact is that by reprocessing the fish of course we have more sophisticated jobs which I will deal with in a moment and also I will deal with the species that have the greatest potential in that regard.

But to get back, Sir, to the objectives themselves: In order to ensure continued growth and stability the fishing industry should become highly competitive and should be independent of financial support from government. Now whilst that is an objective that possibly can be met over the years I also

May 18, 1977,. Tape 2941, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: suggest, and I wish I did not have to say th_~_s ,_ but I think there is going to have to be public support for some time to come. But once again I will be going into that.in a great deal more detail in a moment. The expansion of the industry must take place in a balanced and orderly manner so that full advantage can be taken of. the low capital cost associated with the inshore fishery. Accumulation of offshore harvesting capacities should be fully consistent and complimentary with the economic position of the inshore fishery.

An increased harvesting capacity should therefore be put in place gradually with due r~~~r~ . to the balance which must be maintained between inshore and offshore fishing effort. The dispersed settlement pattern of our ·people requires a healthy inshore fishery and one which is not sacrificed to excessive offshore effort, whether this effort be by domestic or foreign ships. Well, . Sir, I think as objectives these are fine, but how are we going to bring these · very broad objectives about?

Well, I suggest we talk about harvesting, we talk about processing, we talk about m~~~~!ng and we talk about involvement of various groups as to how this can be done. First of all let me talk about the harvesting in this Province. We have the inshore fishery and the fact is that whilst everyone looks at the inshore fishery as the cod traps or the longliner, we in fact today ~have a considerable involvement in the inshore fishery by a multitude of different ·types of boats with different types of capability.

For instance, the very small open boat we are all familiar with, one that goes in along the shore hauling a few salmon nets, hauling a few lobster pots, doing a bit of handlining

May 18, 1977, Tape 2941, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES : in the Fall, basically not the vision of the future, it has limited scope~ And I ..... --- - suggest, Sir, there will always be people who do not want to become industrialized, there will always be people who will not want to be joining the rat race which a developed fishery and the indus~rialization, which it is-,that goes with that, that that will create.

I suggest there are people still who will want to go the easy way - not the easy way but the casual way, if you like, with the small boat, the outboard engine with his lobster traps, his salmon nets and his hand- lining in the Fall and so on. But as I say, it is not,_ I would not suggest, a major part of the plan for the future development of the major part of the fishery itself. We have the open trap-skiff. Today, I suppose we still have a considerable number of codtraps.

This boat will catch salmon, it will do some handlining, it will do some gillnetting and it will do some trawling- in the Fall, that is hook trawling, I mean, with hook and line, and I suppose it is the best return on investment for capital involved and for return generated. I suppose the trap-skiff itself is the best return on capital investment of any part of the fishery. The fact is, Sir, though unfortunately it has a very short season and the role is limited, it --is limited to really what it does today and cannot, I suppose be envisaged as a very much expanded role in the future.

The small longliner up to forty-five feet really has the same purpose as a trap­ skiff but, of course, it has a slightly longer season because it is a deck boat, has a better engine and -probably more seaworthy mainly because it is decked, I guess. The larger longliner up to . - -- --

May 18, 1977, Tape 2941, Page : 3 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: sixty-five feet, today is becoming indeed _very much of a multi-purpose boat. A sixty-five footer today is gillnetting with automatic ge~~ - It ~s possible to have longlining trawls, if you like. It is very possible to do it, and I am not sure, but I will get to this in a moment, that it should not do more of it than it is. Today with the power block, of course, it can seine for mackeral or herring or caplin.

It can do trawling and as the newer steel boats, better known in parliamentary terms as the sculpin class, the newer steel boats are showing that in fact, there is indeed a great - that they can do very well, I should say, at trawling. For the information of the House I might say that the M.V.Sea Launce and the Barricudina and the Blue Hake, these three boats that MR. NEARY: The Sand Launce.

PREMIER MOORES: The Sand Launce, I said her first, yes - which were designed and built, I suppose, almost as much by accident as by any great degree of planning, it was a good idea, it was given to a group of people to put tog.ether and they did, but since the 1st. of January until the end of last month, Mr. Speaker, which is pot a very long season in the Winter, the Sand Launce landed 1.3 million pounds of codfish at a value of $140,000;

May 18, 1977, Tape 2942, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES : the other one landed just about 1 million pounds to the value of $105,000, and the other one, which was not as active, landed 650,000 at $70,000. Now that is in what? - that is in four months? - In four month's work. MR. FLIGHT: Is that Hardy's? PREl-1IER MOORES: Two of theni are fishing at Hardy's,I think. The hen. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) would know. MR. NEARY: They are ~anding their fish on the Southwest Corner, Hardy's, King Fisheries and Rose Blanche. PREMIER MOORES: Right.

It is a phenomenal story, Sir, when you consider that one of these boats would be landing, in fact, as much as one of the larger trawlers if they kept that record up. But that, of course, was exceptionally good fishing. MR. WELLS: How many men would crew a boat? -PREMIER MOORES: The number of men; on that boat, I guess, would be five or six. The han. member would know that as well. I would not think - MR. NEARY: Five. PREMIER' MOORES: Yes, five men, which would give a tremendous return on capital.

So the fact is that sort of boat, very obviously, is going to play a very major part, or a variations of the same boat, and this goes for a lot of sixty-five foot longliners, whether the fisherman can afford the price of a steel boat or whether it has to be a wooden boat which has the same capabilities as these others ·. These boats also, I might say, are such that they have a great deal more mobility than we . have ever had in the fishery before. For instance, this boat would be totally capable of trawling for shrimp in Port au Choix or scallops off St. Anthony or off Labrador,

May 18, 1977, Tape 2942, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: during seasons of the year, and fishing off Port aux Basques for another season, going to wherever. I mean, there is a tremendous mobility for this sort of inshore boat and I suggest, Sir, also a very, very bright future and it is going to play a very major ~ ~ole in the fishery as such. . . But, Sir, I think it is also fair ~~ __ say, once we have gone through the various types of boats, ~n the ma;n that are operating inshore, I think it is also fair to s~y that no matter how much is caught inshore there will always be a ·role for a deep-sea fishery.

I think it would be wrong for us to say that never again - we do not need a deep-sea fishery, if we let the stocks build up enough the quota will come inshore. There is a certain amount of fish, of course, that that does not happen to and the South Coast,! suggest, is living ·proof of that, plus the fact, of course, there are a great many species of fish that do not come inshore at all. A few flounder do but in the main the flounder are caught off shore. Your redfish are caught off shore, your round nose grenadier are caught off shore, so obviously there is always going to be room for a deep-sea fleet.

But, Sir, there has to be a balance between the two types of fishery, and whilst the conservation message has to be true to both, also the planning and the development have to be true to both. I think it iswrong for offshore fishermen to say that inshore fishing is a waste of time, and equally it is wrong for inshore fishermen to say that we can never have a deep-sea fleet because we want it all for ourselves. I think reality has to be faced and I think this has to be done. Now, Sir, when we talk about offshore and the potential we open up, of course, a

May 18, 1977, Tape 2942, Page 3 -- ab PREMIER MOORES : very different world than one that we have been used - to in this Province. Our offshore fishery, on the South Coast particularly, and it is the only place, really, has been one of pretty traditionally sized chips as we know them. But today when we look at what the possibilities are and the ships that are actually fishing off shore here now, and the ones that could possibly be designed to fish off here, you have the hundred foot longliner that the Norwegians, the Faroe Islanders, in particular,have fished out here with great success.

I suggest whilst people may say this is deep-sea fishing, the ironic thing is, whilst a lot of boats like this are in Europe and whilst they are fishing out here they mostly trawl with longlines. The Norwegian type longliners are capable of trawling traditionally, hook and line and seining. They have a great deal more mobility than our inshore effort does. I mean, it can be an elaborate sixty-five footer, if you want. They certainly have more opportunity for diversification and, of course, they have the capability to stay from home for awhile.

Now that one hundred foot middle water boat, you could almost call it, is not a ship that we have fishing out of this Province,to my knowledge,at the present time. That may be somewhere in between the inshore and the offshore that maybe we should be looking at three or four of these ships in Europe as opposed to building them,to bring them here and try them with our own people and see what the capabilities are. In the offshore we have two types of ship that in my opinion do nothing to affect the conservation measures whatsoever. They do not catch any amount of by-catch, they do not catch any, or

May 18·, 1977, Tape 2942, Page 4 -- apb PREMIER MOORES : virtuall.y few, smal~ fish. One· is th~ Portuguese type gillnetter which, in fact, has five o·r six. longliners on board... They· used to have the old.

May 18, 1977 Tape 2943 JM- 1 PREMIER MOOF.ES: doriesas ~v-e remember in the old days. _To~ay they have the· longliner on board that boat would be totally capable of fishing the Labrador fishery as a prime example, the ~Tirgin Rocks area or really anywhere where there is rough ground where trawling is not appropriate or where it is very difficult to do. They are capable of course of longer trips and as I say the type of cod they catch in the main are very large and with very little by-eatch certainly compared to the traditional trawler.

These boats have always salted fish on board because of the distance they had come but the fact is of course that if they were fishing from this Pro~rince it could be salt or fresh.

It is the type of fishery, oddly enough, Sir, and a deep-sea method that our inshore fishermen t·10uld understand better than our offshore fishermen,because if you had five or six longliners fishing from what is really a small mothership,I suppose, the fishery and the method of the fishery is the same as if you went from Bay de ~Terde or Bonavista or wherever the only thing is you are landing in an area that has very large quantities of fish and where it is much more prolific than it is inshore.

The other type is what I mentioned briefly a moment ago, the Norwegian type longliner and this boat of course is also used for seining. But the type of trawling they do is with hook and line longline trawling and they float out about ten miles of trawl before they even come around to picl< up. Now I mean when we talk about ten miles of tra1:.oT1 to our traditional longlining inshore that is a very different operation entirely.

That boat will not catch as much fish as any other- but, Sir, the quality of the fish that is landed on that ship is,in fact the Yalue of that cargo is so much more than the traditional boats landing that the Norwegians tell me, the people I know in Norway, that in fact the value for crew effort and the value-fer the catch is greater per man hour than any other method they do because they catch these very big fish on the longlines, they bleed them coming on board, they salt them in the

May 18, 1977 Tape 2943 JM - 2 PREMIER ~OOF.ES : main on board, large white bled fish,salted and the price they get for those fish of course is a price that we have never heard of because we have never had a fish to sell on that particular market. So, Sir, the fact is that they are smaller catches but of the very highest quality. So in the two types of offshore boats I am talking about, the Portuguese type gillnetter and the Norwegian type longliner,these are not the type of ships that really hurt conservation measures.

As a matter of fact they are only catching large fish and they are not catching very much by-catch. Then of course ~e have the traditional trawler,as I say, which we have seen operated on the South coast. This boat picks up all species. The fact is that this trawler fleet is going to have to be replaced. I suggest there are quite a few of the side trawlers that should be replaced and are starting to be replaced now. They will either have to be replaced or ~upplemented.

In other words there will have to be ships bought or there will have to be ships built and I am suggesting, Sir, that between the two that will have to go in the plan as well. Then of course there is the freezer tratvlers. Now I have very mixed emotions on the freezer trawlers. There are two types of them of -course. There is one that does processing on board with bone-in fillets and there are others that freeze fish with the head off, gut out for processing on shore.

The last one certainly has more appeal from a labour point of view on shore and I would snggest that if ~.re are expect:Lng Nel-7foundlanders and Labradorians to go to sea on freezer ships for ninety days it is unlikely if we are going to get them to go in the processing plants. They might go where the bigger wages are on deck but as far as processing in the plants are concerned I would suggest it may~e aui te difficult. AN RON • :MEMBER: Mr. Speaker, Harbour erace - P'P-.EMIER MOORES: Yes. MP .• NOLAN: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, there seems to be undue noise

~.ay 18, 1977 Tape 2943 JM- 3 MR. NOL.t\.N: in some of the corridors. I mean,I would assume that the Premier is making a major statement in connection with this issue and whether we agree with him or not is not really the issue, but I think we should hear him out and he should be granted the courtesy of at least some silence. Th~ noise I refer to is outside the chamber, Mr. Speaker. 'MP.. SPEAKER: I would ask the constable if he would take appropriate action to assure that the noise will not interfere. ~MIER ~OORES : }lR, NEARY: Arrest them. in Harbour Grace this year? about.

PF.E:riTER MOOP.ES : Yes. - fish the West Germans put ashore That is the fish the Premier is talking The advantage, Mr. Speaker, of the freezer trawler of course, there is one very large advantage and that is the fact that it provides a controlled inventory for processing. A lot of people may not realize exactly r,1hat that is or how valuable it is.

But what happens in most fish plants in the Province~whether they be year round plants on the South Coast or seasonal plants on the Northeast Coast~but what usually happens is that there are days when there is not enough fish to give a full days work and when those days happen of course it is only natural that the labour force if they see four hours work are going to be six hours before they get out of the plant and this is the most natural thing in the world. And I think the member from Fortune will agree

May 18, 1977 PREMIER MOORES : with that particular comment. But the fact is by the frozen fish being in storage or the fillets with the bone in even when the time comes the next day,you know,you only have four hours fish ahead of you, the fact is that x amount of fish can be - -~~k~~_o_u_t _ ~d_t.E_aw_e~ - - T.\>hich will guarantee a full eight hours production .... And this of course from a skilled employee point of view, from a value for hour work point of view is invaluable. It is invaluable to guarantee almost a forty hour week every week. It is the sort of controlled inventory that can aid and abet.

It will never be the guts, and that is not a point, Sir, of the problem, it will never be the solution to it but certainly it can help in the efficiency of it. But when you talk about the fish that is available for this controlled inventory you are talking about an

article that is extremely expensive. First of all the ships themselves, the replacement value of these German ships today for instance is ~30 million, ~vhich is a hugh amount of money for any one trawler,and of course because of the cost of the ship the product has to reflect,even though they catch considerably more,the product of course reflects the additional cost of the ship as well. Now, Sir, the fact is that I think ~.:re can come up with a prototype ship that can do the same job. The reason for that is,I suggest,we do not need factory ships in the long-term such as the Europeans did.

As I say,they have to steam 3,000 miles to start fishing and then after they have finished fishing they have to steam 3,000 miles back home again. That is a 6,000 mile steam and what we tend to forget is that we in this particular part of the world are in fact anchored in the middle of the fishing ground. There is fishing going on all around, whether it is the Gulf of St. Lawrence, the Straits, the Grand Banks, East of us or to the North of us, the fact is that Newfoundland and Labrador are located exactly where the fish is. I am saying what we need is a boat that can possibly catch this fish as

~ay 18, 1977 Tape 2944 JM- 2 PRE¥IER MOORES: efficiently as the Europeans but certainly not as large nor as expensive as the boat they required to stock up for that long voyage and so on. That prototype I think,and ~·Te have talked to the Federal Government about this, is a boat that should be ice re.inforced, a powerful ship, smaller and cheaper or more reasonable than the European::freezer.

I think be tween .ourselves and the Nova Scotians and the Federal Government we should co-operate and see if it is not possible to come up with a design and a prototype and get a couple of these ships built on a trial basis and see how they can compare "t-Tith the freezer ships. Because, Sir, if they compare favourably of course you can do the same work as a freezer ship without,as I say,the tremendous cost of doing it. ~. NEARY: Will it be iced fresh fish?

PREMIER ~~OORES: Yes, it will be iced fresh fish because what a lot of people of course do not realize is that if you take the extreme of the Hamilton Bank, if that is where you were talking about and that is the furthest away I would suggest, you are still only a days steam from port whereby the Nova Scotians fishing on the Eastern edge of the Grand Banks now ~re what, ~~o or two and a half days steam from port? That is right I guess, yes.

So, Sir, to get on with it,the fact is that we have looked over the various types of ships. \Je have to decide of course ~;rhat numbers t.dll be required, what types should be required and ~._rhere they should be obtained and ,_rhere they should be ~uilt.

Now I think there is no question whatsoever that irrespective of how many ships that for instance are leased or bought to be used for this purpose when we start talking about the tonnages which I will get to in a moment, 111hen we start talking about the tonnages that is possible for us to catch it will mean that ~arystmvn, as an example, will have to be at full production~and even at full production will not even come close I to supplying the gear and equipment that is going to be required for the job. So there is going to be an opportunity here for all this to be done.

May 18, 1977 Tape 2944 JM - 3 PRE'MIER MOORES: Now, Sir, so much for the harvesting and th.e various options ~.re have available to us and the variQus types to be used for that. But let us look at the groundfish themselves. It is difficult this afternoon and I apologize for using so many statistics but it is difficult to illustrate conversation and catches and this sort of thing without using figures. So for that I do apologize. But~ Sir,- AN RON. ME}!BER: PREMIER MOORES: AN RON. MEMBER: PREMIER MOORES : It is good. Pardon! It is good.

In the codfish area,for instance,in 1968 as I said there were two billion potinds caught. In 1976 there were 430 mi.llion pounds caught. Now, Sir, the best guess by the Federal people,and I would suggest to anyone _els~~ the scientists,that when the conservation levels are lifted from that particular specie, you know,when we have gotten back to the - in other words ,this maximum sustainable yield, "~omen we get to the stage where we cart take that amount out which

¥ay 18, 1977 Tape 2945 JM- 1 PREMIER MOORES: will allow the regrowth to be stable, in other words,you will have a set amount. The figure is that the minimum we will go to is .zoo mi~JJ.o~pQ~ _Q.f co~._Now._ Sil.:~w<t& . -'llmn~t 1:;.;· . biJ.~=!-C!!l _Poun~s __ a_few years ag9, __ 2_59- million_ pounds _ this . year.,__ -thP. _ fip:1.trt=> is 700 m~-~li on __ po-;n~s__!:q~y __ exp~ct __ it __ to . get __ _ t~_in the_l98Q! _s _ which i~ r.1h~t ..:.. ___________ _ will be there available for us to harvest. MR. CP..NNTirG: Mr. Speaker, would the Premier allow a question?

PP.E}1!ER ~100'RES : Sure. ~-· CANNING: Those figures you gave there first when you gave it out, there ~vas so many million caught one year and then at another date down to 250 million pounds. PREMIER HOOPES : Yes. ~. CANNING: Does that mean that that is cut by quota ,you knolv' or was that ~.vhat they could acquire? T,Jas that shown by the scarcity of fish or was it the actual quota? PREl-.fiER MOORES : No., The actual catch in 1968 was tYn hj.1 }_;_1"1-n ""'11~ of -·- - cod, the actual catch. ~ut,.this year the actual quota is 250 million pounds.

In other words,two billion pounds were caught in 1968. and this vear bv auota we c.re I - . only allowed, everybody, to catch 250 million pounds. ~-. CAL'lNING: Is that quota being based on the decreasing amount that is being caught ever since 1968? PREMIER ~-mOPES: No. That quota this year was half what they thought they could catch because they put in conservation measures. This is the conservation quota. This is the level that the scientist,believe is the level that r,1ill allow the stock to grow back very quickly. "I-fF_. Clu'ffiiNG: Right . Thank you! Al.'l RON • Mffi-~'BER: No quota.

PPE}.fiE"R :1:-fOORES : Pardon! There was no quota in 1968? PR.EMTER MOORES: There r,vas no auota in 1968. She rvas just high, ~vide and handsome . Sir, the scientists,as I say, expect this to get - - . up to 700 million pounds at the leveling off period. That will be when the -- ~- -stock regenerates, 700 .million pounds tvill be allowed. But one of the

May 18, 1977 Tape No. 2945 JM- 2 PREMIER MOORES: amazing parts of that, Sir, is that 700 million pounds is just a figure to be bandied about, but to put it into some kind of perspective the total inshore fishery in this Province is 100 million pounds. So what you are saying is that you will have fourteen times the volume available as the present inshore fishery in this Province in cod . alone. So once you take that as cod alone and that, Sir, I would suggest is -- only a small part of the potential fishery resource, I think it gives you some idea of exactly what the potential is we are talking about.

Flounder and sole, these basically have remained stable but this year of course with conservation they will be increased and the guess is from 160 million pounds this year to 200 - 250 million pounds in a few years time. But that is all Canadian now and I suggest will be all Canadian then. And red fish from 124 million pounds this year to approximately 200 - 250 million pounds once again in the early 1980's. Now today that is not an all Canadian catch. There is some 60 million pounds being caught by Russia this year.

These are primarily caught of course along the South Coasts and for primarily the South Coast and Nova Scotian plants. But, Sir, there are other areas as well in the groundfish area, the turbot - 60 million pounds that are - - --- -·- -- . being eaught_this year and the fact is that only 13 million pounds of that is being caught by Canada.

It is projected that this will increase to 100 million pounds by the early 1980's but in fact not a great deal is known about the turbot fishery either by the scientists in the Euronean nations nor ourselves because it is comparatively new really in the Coast and in our waters as far as harvesting is concerned. MR. MURPHY: That is a far more valuable catch than probably cod or - ? PREMIER MOORES: No, turbot is not. No, if it was real turbot it was. But it is what we call Greenland halibut. There are other names for it but Greenland halibut, I think, is the most electable name I can think of for it this afternoon.

And the hon. member from Eagle River knows exactly what I am talking about. The