Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 13A (35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-13a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

- Fifth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published utuler the authority of The Honourtlble Denis C. Rocan Spealcer Vol. XLill No. 13A- 1:30 p.m., Monday, Aprll :ZS, 1994 ISSN OS42-S492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoUtical Atllll atlon NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY ASIITON. Steve Thompson NDP BARRETT, Becky Wellington NDP CARSTAJRS,Shuon River Heights .Liberal CER1LLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste.Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal ENNS, Harry, Hon.

Lakeside PC - ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS,Clif Interlake NDP EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP Fll.. MON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Liberal GllLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC GRAY, Avis Crescentwood Liberal HELWER, Edward R Girnli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Liberal LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Liberal LA Tin.. IN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

Morris PC MARTINDALE , Doug Burrow s NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCORMICK. Nonna Osborne Liberal - MceltAJE,James,Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda. Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PALLISTER, Brian Portage la Prairie PC PENNER. Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK. Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland NDP ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE. Bob Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS.

Conrad Bro adway NDP SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere NDP STEP ANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Paxk PC STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry PC WOWCHUK. Rosann Swan River NDP

- - 544 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 25, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS RO�PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS APM Incorporated Remuneration and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of William Tataryn, Marlene Tataryn, Rod Leveille and others requesting the Legislative Assembly urge the Premier (Mr. Filmon ) to personally step in and order the repayment of the $4 million paid to Connie Curran and her firm APM Incorporated and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Phann acare and Home Care programs.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Curran Contrad Cancellation and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Clif Evans). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WH EREAS the Manitoba government has repeatedly bro ken promis es to supp ort the Pharmacare program and has in fact cut benefits and increased deductibles far above the inflation rate; and

WHEREAS the Pharmacare program was brought in by the NDP as a preventative program which keeps people out of costly hospital beds and institutions; and

WHEREAS rather than cutting benefits and increasing deductibles the provincial government should be demanding the federal government cancel recent cuts to generic drugs that occurred under the Drug Patent Act; and

WHEREAS at the same time Manitoba government has also cut home care and implemented user fees; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba government paid an American health care consultant over $4 million to implement further cuts in health care. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Premier to personally step in and order the cancellation of the Connie Curran contract and consider cance/Ung the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Care programs. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Manitoba Builder Bonds Series ll Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker , I have both a report to table and a ministerial statement. I wo uld like to table the fidelity bonds in accordance with

Section 20 of The Public Officers Act. Mr. Speak er, it gives me great pleasure to announce a second series of Builder Bonds for 1994. The initial offering of Builder Bonds was a great success , raising $34 1 mi llion for the province. The people of Manitoba have continued to support their province by investing in excess of $1.5 billio n in HydroBonds and Builder Bonds. More importantly, over $180 million has been paid in interest exclusively to Manitobans, interest that otherwise would have been paid to lenders outside of the province.

545 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April25, 1994 Builder Bonds will be available for as little as $100 for a five-year tenn. Purchasers will have the option of monthly, annual or compounded interest. Builder Bonds Series II will be on sale from Tuesday, May 24, to Saturday, June 11, with the interest rate being announced May 20. The interest rate will be competitive with the principal and interest on all bonds fully guaranteed by the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I encourage all Manitobans to share in this exciting opportunity with Builder Bonds Series II. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : Mr.

Speaker, I thank the honourable minister for making this statement , and, certainly, we hope that we can sell these bonds successfully and that we will raise the money, because, indeed, the government does need the money, given the fact that again this year we are going to have a considerable deficit as we have had year after year since this government has been elected. As a matter of fact, the per capita debt in the province of Manitoba is substantially higher today than it was in 1988. In fact, this higher per capita debt in Manitoba is higher than it has ever been in our history.

There seems to be no letting up in the increase in the debt per capita. Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, I would encourage Manitobans to buy these bonds because we believe that Manitobans should be financing our government programs as much as possible. Thank you . •

(1335) Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, very quickly, leaving aside the question of the amount of debt and how it comes about, I think that all parties should be in favour of domesticating our debt The more we can raise internally, the more interest we can pay to Manitobans as opposed to people from outside of our provincial economy, the better it will be. Mr. Speaker, we supported the HydroBonds; we supported the first issue of Builder Bonds. We will certainly support this issue of Builder Bonds.

I think the real challenge is clearly to move on from this and not just retain dollars in this province to essentially finance debt but also retain dollars for Venture Capital purposes in this province. That, I think, is the second challenge that we all need to address ourselves to-retaining as much of the $640 million each year in pension contributions and RSP contributions that leave this province. That is the challenge.

The minister is aware of our comments and our ideas on that front, but with respect to the Builder Bonds, I said in my Budget Address and we have said before that retaining the dollars of Manitobans in Manitoba is good for everyone. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us this afternoon from the W.C. Miller Collegiate, forty Grade 9 students under the direction of Miss Marcey Chemiak and Mr. Ben Dyck.

This school is located in the const ituency of the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner). Also this afternoon, from the R.F. Morrison School, we have forty-five Grade 5 students under the direction of Mr. Myron Tarasiur. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak:). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Gambling Treatment Programs Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition ): Mr. Speaker, my question. is to the Premier (Mr. Film on).

In the budget tabled last week, one of the largest, if not the largest, areas of growth in terms of revenues of the government has been in the area of lottery revenue. Some $180 million is cited as the expected income for the fisc al year. -

- April25, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 546 Mr. Speaker, in annual reports pa st, the government bas bad an amount of money of some $500,000 for treatment of people affected by gambling and bas had $1.2 million for advertising in that ann ual report which now is being expanded by pre-election advertising that is planned by the government. We also see that women's shelters are commenting today that they see a connection between VLTs and domestic violence intake. I would ask the Premier, do they see the connection between the VL T expansion of this gover nment an d domestic violence intake?

Secondly, do they think it is appropriate to have an advertising budget for Lotteries some four times more than the amount of money this government bas budgeted for treating people who are affe cted by the social impact of lottery expansion? •

(1340) Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, I, too, read the

article today in the paper, and I talked with a reporter last week. It seems that may be an indication of some of the reasons why people have abusive activity within family relationships. I think Waltraud Grieger, the chairperson of that association, said it best this morning when she said: I think the one thing I really wanted to clarify is that whether it is gambling or alcohol or any other addiction, it does not necessarily cause the violence. What it does do is it intensifies and increases the number of times that it happens. Mr.

Speaker, at this poin t, we are not entirely certain yet what kind of volume would come from this kind of activity. The shelters are, in fact, carrying on some monitoring of that situation so they can determine whether it is becoming more and more prevalent. It is a concern to all of us. Cer tainly, we have put su fficient resources, accord ing to the Addictions Found ation of Manitoba, sufficient so far for their activities, but if addition al resour ces are re quired, I have indicated publicly on a number of occasion s, we will certainly address that issue. Gambling Public Consultations Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposit ion): Mr. Speaker, the minister indicated that they were not sure of the impact and did not answ er the question about the relations hip or the ratio of spending on advertising for Lotteries versus programs for people to deal with the social costs. In 1987, the Premier (Mr. Filmon), on March 11, the then-Leader of the Opposition, called for public bear ings to deal wi th the impact of gambling prior to decisions being made.

With the 100-day, part-time charity casinos, be felt that expansion should not be dealt with behind closed doors and that we should have public bearings in this province, and I quote: " ... so that all these public groups will be beard before any permanent decision is made on the matter?" 1be Premier goes on to talk about the potential tax on the poor with the revenue, in the same questions, and again calls for public bearings. Now, surely, we have bad massive expansion. The minister is not awar e of the impact on women's shelters.

The Premier himself felt that public bearings would be a useful public exercise in areas of gambling. We have called on that; other parties have called on that. Would the Premier now today commit himself to his own words of 1987 and have a full public bearing and inquiry on gambling, the revenues, the social cost, the expansion issues, so all Manitobans could debate this very, very important issue in the province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member opposite for his question.

It begs the question, of course, as to what the real position of the New Democrats is on this issue, because this very Leader of the Opposition is one who in The Pas promised to have a casino for the Fll'St Nations at 1be Pas. The New Democrats in office in the Province of Saskatchew an have added over 3, 000 VLTs without any public bearings. The New Democrats in office in Ontario have opened a casino in

547 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April25, 1994 Wmdsor under, I might say, the management of an American management fum they brought in. Mr. Speaker, this government has brought the opportunity for examination by the Legislature in our public process of having the committees of the Legislature examine it. Under the New Democrats, there was not that opportunity. The Lotteries Corporation did not have to come before a committee of the Legislature.

This government has carried through on its commitment to do that so that there is this kind of public examination of the lotteries practices and the opportunity to be examined by the critics and by the members of the Legislature in a public f orum so that we do have that examination and review. This government has done those things. This government has also increased the funding by 123 percent to women's shelters since it has been in office. So we address the concerns. We are not just people who talk about them, like New Democrats, out of both sides of their moutm. Mr.

Doer: I would suggest that all our commitments are subject to absolute public inquiry in hearings, Mr. Speaker, and we have the transcripts, so let not the Premier again create a false impression in this Ownber, as he is wont to do. Gambling Expansion Moratorium Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the government, in November, had announced a so-called mor atorium on the expansion of gambling.

I have a press release from Plymouth, Minnesota, indicating that the company has sold its first simulated crap game, or video lottery crap game, to the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, a provincial government entity, to be installed in the province of Manitoba. The size of this order was not confirmed. This game, Mr. Speaker, is the first one, they say, in Canada This game, of course, is going to be installed. It allows over five players, I believe, to play in a simulated and mechanical way.

I would ask the government how this expansion or change in gambling, given that they do not have a "crap game" at the casino at the Fort Garry Hotel, how this affects again the so-call ed moratorium that the government has promised us and seems to be breaking at every occasion. •

(1345) Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, on November 3, 1993, I outlined a moratorium with respect to additional casinos and VLT sites. In addition to that, I outlined, in some detail, the kinds of things that would happen that were already committed to prior to the moratorium being issued. Mr. Speaker, some of the time frames related to these things take six months, a year and sometimes more to get from the time of order until the time of delivery. I also indicated at that time, Mr.

Speaker, that there would be internally changes in ty pes of games as products mature and so on If you take one out and put another one in, it is not an expansion of gambling. Gambling Social Costs Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): We have recent reports of children being locked in cars in the parking lot of the McPhillips Street Station, reports of gambling-related suicides throughout the province and now a report from the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba showing that 75 percent of VLT users have gambling-related problems with their families.

I wonder what evidence this government needs to be convinced of the negative social effects of gambling. As the Premier (Mr. Ftlmon) said in his answer to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), and I quote, we address the concer ns related to gambling, I would like to ask the government if they would, in a specific way, address the concerns related to gambling and f acilitate a meeting between the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, women's shelters in Manitoba and other agencies throughout the province that deal with gambling -

- - Apri125, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 548 problems to try and address, in a positive, proactive, specific way, these issues. Bon. Bonnie Mitchels on (Minister of Famlly Services): As a result of our government' s commi tment to women in the province of Manitoba, we have increased funding for women's shelters 123 percent since we took office, so we have made a commitment to ensure that the shelter system is there to provide serv ices to women in crisis.

I have already had the opportunity this morning of speaking to Waltraud Grieger, and, indeed, we are putting in place a meeting in the very near future with the women's shelters and those that provide services to women and the Addictions Foundation in Manitoba to ensure that those that are accepting ca lls from women in crisis do under s tan d the full process of pro vidin g opportunities for women to access the Addictions Foundation for any type of addictive behaviour that might cause family crisis. Gambling Rural Treatment Programs Ms.

Becky Barrett (WeUington): Almost half of the VL Ts in Manitoba are outside the Perimeter Highway. A Brandon crime prevention committee report in March of this year indicated that one in 10 VL T users is likely to experience problems with gambling. I would ass ume that means within the city and outside the city of Winnipe g. There are no services specifically for gambling addictions outside the city of Winnipeg.

I would like to ask when the government will provide services to all the people of the province of Manitoba and not just nine counsellors in the city of Winnipeg, so that all of the resi dents of Manitoba will have access to these services. Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, there are resident people for the Addictions Foundation in Brandon and in Thompson and shortly will be there in Dauphin, as was originally planned.

We have nine counsellors trained in the effects of gambling problems, and they will be dispersed · throughout Manitoba to provide services throughout the province. Treatment Programs Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, the Minister responsible for Lotteries stated today that people do not become addicted to gambling overnight; it takes years.

Will the people of Manitoba have to wait years for the government to take effective action to deal with this growing problem, or is the government going to begin now to work with other groups throughout the province of Manitoba to establish programs to deal with the immediate problems facing people in regard to gambling, to look at lon g-t erm solutions and also to loo k most spe cifically and most importantly at preventing these problems from- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. •

(1350) Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, we have been doing that for the last eight or 10 months. We have put in place $2.5 million worth of funding to the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba to train people. We have had warning posters, a gambling hotline, a litany of other kinds of activities to try and bring the attention of people. In addition to that, the Addictions Foundation trained counsell ors. This is a little bit of a new field in terms of that.

It has only matured in the last 10 years or so in the U.S., and those tr ai ned coun sellor s are conducting semin ar s and information sessions with other tr ain ed profes sionals, Child and Family Services and so on, so that they can become aware. In addition to that, some training is ongoing at the moment with front-line people involved in the premises in which these machines are located so that they too can have an awareness of an attempt to provide prevention as oppose d to treatment afterwards.

549 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 1994 Gambling Volberg Report Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the minister said, and was reported as saying, as my friend bas indicated, specifically that people do not become addicted to gambling overnight. Then he went on to say, if there is stress in the fami ly, then it creates diffi culties, but at this point no one can say yet if there is any direct association. However, in fact, I would like to remind the minister of the Volberg report.

We do not yet have the full report because the minister bas refused to release it, but the pre cis version that we did get back last year indicates at page 16 that there is a linkage betwee n-su bstantial nwnbers of women experiencing domestic abuse have partners whose gambling is problematic or whose own gambling developed as a means to remain out of the home is . problematic. The Volberg report went on to specifically indicate at page 20 that training should be offered to a broad may of professional groups, including family ther apists, social workers and staff of domestic abuse agencies. Mr.

Speaker, why did we spend all this money for this report that the minister apparently bas not read or bas not listened to, or does he dispute the findings of this report that he commissioned? Which is it? Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, firstly, let me say that the question that was put and the response in the newspaper that was printed there related to an increase in people attending wife abuse shelters. No one disputes the fa ct that Dr.

Volberg in her report indicated that some 1.3 percent of adult Manitobans could have a problem associated with gambling. We have free ly admitted that, and that is why we hired Dr. Volberg in the first place: it was to try and get a handle on what kinds of problems we might have to deal with. But, Mr. Speaker, the words there are not my words. The words that say gambling addiction does not occur overnight, those are the words of the ex ecutive dir ector of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba at a public meeting, standing right in front of the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), who heard that exact statement.

Treatment Programs Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have already put on the record the words of Ms. Volberg who wrote this report and clearly made that linkage. I will await the minister's recognizing that this does exist. I want to further ask the minister and table correspondence dated April 20 from the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation which now indicates that -earlier we had indicated there was $1.2 mill ion, we thought, being spent on building upgrades and renovations. In fact, that is $2.4 million, double what was earlier thought.

I would like to ask the minister, given that the Lotteries Corporation is spending $2.4 mill ion on building upgrades, $548,000 on a public relations advertising campaign, spent $619,000 last year on travel, why is it that only $500,000 per year is committed to deal with the in excess of 10,000 addicts we know are in our province? Why is it that there is only a $106,000 increase this year in all of domestic abuse services in this province? Oearly, the priority of the government speaks loudly and clearly.

Why is this government putting more money into public relations and building upgrades than de aling with domestic abuse in the province created by gambling? •

(1355) Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Firstly, let me say that with respect to the $2.5 million we are putting into treatment programs to the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, my honourable friend heard the executive director of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba a couple of months ago at a public meeting say, we have adequate resources to deal with the problem, and Mr. Speaker, we do meet - -

- - April25, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 550 with the Addictions Foundation on a regular basis to detennine if, in fact, additional resources are required. My honourable friend says there are 10,000 addicts. How does he know that? No one knows if there are 10,000- An Honourable Member: Volberg said so. Mr. Ernst: No, she does not, Mr. Speaker. She does not do that at all.

With resp ect to building additions and equipment purchases that are going on with respect to the Crown corporation, we have a hundred and-some-odd more employees at the head office of the corporation than we had a couple of years ago. We need some place to put them. They are entitled to a decent workplace, as well as everyone else who works for a Crown corporation. We are putting in the $800, 000 he refers to for a new computer system to operate the Lotteries Corporation. Does he not think that we ought to have timely infonnation and so on to deal with those operations?

This is necessary in order to fully provide management infonnation related to the operations of the Crown corporation. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I am intrigued by the minister's refutal, in essence, of Ms. Volberg's report which he has up to now said represented the final word, specifically the statement that there is currently 1.3 percent of the adult population, which represents at least 10,000 people in this province, and that also came out at that meeting from the executive director of the Addictions Foundation.

Currently, those people are, in fact, pathological gamblers, and he acknowledged that more were being created all the time. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Addictions Foundation only responds to somebody who complains, who comes to them. My question for the minister: Why is this government not taking a proactive approach at, in fact, dealing with these problems before the person reaches rock bottom and comes to the government, as Ms. Volberg specifically recommended at page 20, where she talked about training for counsellors in domestic abuse agencies ?

She talked about how training should be provided to the staff of gaming revenues about its social and economic costs. Why is this government not taking a proactive approach to deal with the pathological gamblers who are already in existence in this province? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, let me say firstly to my honourable friend that 1.3 percent of the adult population, according to Dr. Volberg, are not pathological gamblers. What it says is they have the potential, or they could have a problem associated with it.

It does not say they are, it does not say they were and does not say that they are going to be, but I am- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I believe the minister has indicated that there was some misinfonnation put on the record. I want to indicate- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member clearly has a dispute over the facts. He does not have a point of order. ••• Mr. Speaker: The honourable minister, to finish with his response. Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speak er, with regard to the question of broadening the scope of people involved in the potential for either recognition or treatment of problem gambling, in my response to the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), I think I indicated that we are, in fact, dealing with Child and Family Servi ces and a number of other agencies, that the nine trained people from the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba are broadening the horizons, dealing with them in tenns of seminars and so on. Post-Secondary Education Access Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, students in Manitoba's ACCESS programs are, generally speaking, adults in their thirties, out of school for many years, often with a Grade 8 level of education. Most are aboriginal, more than half

55 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 25, 1994 are fe male , and many are single paren ts. Common sense alone would tell us that these Manitobans are the least likely to be aware of post-sec ondary education, the least likely to have the confidence and the least likely to have the fa mily support to take on the $60, 000 debt required. I would like to ask the Minister of Education to table any shred of evidence he has to demonstrate that such sbldents will continue to have fair access to post-se condary education. Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I will welcome, certainly , the dialogue around this issue once we move into Estimates, and there will be some views and, indeed, some learned conclusions that I will be able to share with the member at that time. The decision was made on the basis of fairness, and what we sensed was that in today's society where we have a large majority of our youth who are having to call upon loans or are having to call upon loan with respect to their post-secondary education, that that should be the right, indeed, that is app lied to evecybody. •

(1400) ACCESS Programs Report Tabling Request Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, will the minister coofinn that his department has spent thousands of dollars on an evaluation of ACCESS programs which conclu ded that they continue to be of enormous benefit to indi viduals and to the province of Manit oba as a whole ? Will he table that report? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, that is correct and that is why we are maintaining a level of intake that we have had over the years . Current Student Status Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, does the minister intend to honour his contract with existing students in the ACCESS program s, including those at the Wmnipeg Education Centre, and allow them to continue their programs under the conditions under which they entered the programs under the original ACCESS program? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that question as notice.

Certainly, when we have made policy changes in the past, the latest being the Student Loans Program a year ago when we went from a bursacy program more to a straight loan program , we did grandfather the rights of those smdents to whom we had made commitments. That is a general approach this government has taken with respect to all policy changes. I will endeavour to give specific detail to the question another day. Youth Unemployment Rate Reduction Strategy Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East ): Mr. Speaker, I have a question either for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson) or the Minister of Education.

Youth unemployment in Manitoba has risen dramatically in the first three months of this year compared to the first three months of last year. We have jumped from 14.6 percent unemployment for young people to 20. 1. That is a dramatic in crease. Yet I note in the 1994 Estimates, tabled with the Budget Address, that the government has only allocated $2.6 million for the CareerStart program , which is only half of what it was under the previous NDP government . I ask the mi ni ster, will the gover nment reconsider and increase its efforts to combat youth unemployment this summer?

Youth unemploy ment bas risen substan tially. Will the government improve its efforts to combat this unemployment? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the member then would be happy to know that the latest statistics indicate our youth unemployment, I beli eve, has dropped from 22 to roughly 17 percent. I would think he would be overjoyed with that revelation. We are trying, and we are maintaining our dollar commitments to the youth employment programs - -

- - Apri125, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 552 that are in place . Our youth again lead the nation in tenns of labour matket participation. It is indicated that employment opp ortunities for youth in general are more fa vourable in Manit oba than the rest of Canada. Through CareerStart and the youth programs we have in place, we know that our numbers will come in looking more or less like they have in years previous to this. We are allocating millions of dollars with respect to youth unemployment.

We will share with whatever fe deral program comes fo rward to maintain the level of employ ment there is within our youth category. Provincial Comparisons Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Again looking at the first quarter of this year, the first three months of this year, can the minister explain why youth unemployment in Manitoba was higher than in Canada as a whole ? Traditionally, we are below the Canadian average, yet the first quarter of this year we were above the Canadian avera ge. I want to ask the minister, why has their position deteriorated in this time period?

Why have we worsened compared to the Canadian situation? Bon. Clayton Mann ess (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I do not know what it is the member is trying to say. He knows full well-he knows as he sits there that the youth unemployment rate dropped from 22 to 17 percent over the last month. I thought he would share our joy in that revelation, but he chooses totally to ignore that fa ct.

I also point out to him, as we do with respect to Manit oba vis-?l-vis the rest of the country, we have the highest participation rate-in other words, measuring those who come fo rward to present themselves to the workforce-o f any province in Canada. So, Mr. Speaker, we do me asure a greater share of those youth who want to work, and that is again a revelation and a reflection of the work ethic that exists in this provi nce. I would think that that would be a meaningful statistic to the member op posite, but he chooses to ignore it and instead dwell on the negative.

I say to him, I hope by Friday, when he comes forward to ask another question on the employment stats , that · · he will be more positive in his tone. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing negative about asking for more jobs for Manit oba's young people . We stand for young people. The fact is, even taking this last month, the youth unemployment is higher than it was last year at this time. You cannot go from February to March with actual data. You know full well you have to use seasonally adjusted data. Year over year, we are in a worse positio n-- Mr. Speaker: Question, plea se.

Northern Youth Program Reinsta tement Mr. Leonard Evans (Brand on East): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask my final question to the same minister. Will the government consider reinstating the northern youth program, which was abolished by this government a few years ago, since that area of the province has by far the highest level of unemployment? Let us give the kids up north a chance. Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the question reflects the difference in ph ilosophy .

When the member was part of a Treasury bench which made these executive decisions, what they tried to do was to build their numbers. They went and borrowed billions and billions of dollars to buy their numbers. What our governm ent is trying to do is to put into place a climate which will attract industry , and when we do so in the member's backyard in Brandon, OWE, he jumps down on those jobs as being inf erior, and the beneficiary of those types of jobs would be the youth to which the member directs the question. So I say to him, Mr.

Speak er, this is obviously the dif fe rence in philosophie s, and I sa y, Manitobans today support the policy and the philosophy of this party because, indeed, that is what they see, the long-run potential, and, indeed,

553 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 1994 one based not on increased taxes in the future, but one based on the weal th creation that Manitobans can provide to each other. Distance Education Telecommunications Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, last week, I asked the Minister of Education why he was terminating lon g-term civil servants and replacing them with political contracts like that of Beth Cruickshank, and he said be would table that contract in the House when fonnally asked to do so, and I would ask him today to do that.

Today I want to ask the Minister of Education another question related to the Manitoba Telephone System and pursuant to the distance education task force re port that was tabled with the minister in October of 1993. The task force specifically highlights the role of the Telephone System and asks that expertise and leadership be developed in the Telephone System to help and assist in developing the electronic highway. I want to ask the Minister of Education, or the Minister responsible for the Telephone System (Mr.

Findlay), what provision is his government making to ensure that the electronic highway will be owned and controlled by the people of Manitoba through the Manitoba Telephone System and that the rate charged will be equitable and fair? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Well, Mr.

Speaker, dealing with the latter question, as far as fair rates, I mean, we approach the Manitoba Telephone System and we ask them for the most competitive rate they can offer, realizing full well that if the rate is not competitive, it is going to be very hard for our school divisions to provide, at a reasonable cost, the service I think the member opposite wants too, and that is to provide greater technology for the provision of distance education. As far as rates provided by the Manitoba Telephone System, those are detennined inte rnally to that system.

I am hoping that we are provided within Education the most competitive rates going. Mr. Speaker, that is the essence of the member's question then, as to wheth er or riot Manitoba Telephone System-are we going to give them a monopoly to carry distance education? We would expect that they will have a primal role.

Whether they have the total and monopolistic role that the member would want, I point out that there are technology advancements that are happening very, ve ry qu ic kly and rapidl y, and it may not necessarily be that hard wire is going to be the only way of mov ing the signal carrying distance education. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, clearly the essence of the question was, will it be owned and controlled by the Telephone System and would reasonable rates be guaranteed and how the government was to do that.

I want to ask the Minister of Education to tell us why he has ignored the expertise of the Manitoba Telephone System with regard to the development of the technological developments in this province by instead eng aging in a contract with an American communications company, AT&T, to provide the expertise or development of the needs for Manitoba in a study that he has undertaken. Why did he ignore the expertise of the Telephone System and instead go to an American company, AT&T? •

(1410) Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I do not know of what the member speaks. I can tell you that certainly in trying to build the distance education system and the electronic highway to service Manitoba, we very quickly realized this has to be more than education. We are looking around for an integrated model that will reach out to services across the board. I must say that that expertise in that area does not really exist in the province of Manitoba in any dimension. We are trying to seek greater help wherever it may exist with respect to integrating -[interjection] No, Mr.

Speaker, there is only one group of people in this House who are down on Manitoba, and that is the doomers and gloomers - -

- - April 25, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 554 across the way who talk down to Manitoba in every dimension that we try and bring forward. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, if this minister is not down on Manitoba, why did be not tender that contract in Manitoba? I want to ask him today to table the contract, to give us the cost of that · contract that be is developing, his so-called plan that be referred to in last week's Question Period, this American plan for our technology in this province. How much is that costing? Will be table that contract in the House? Mr. Mann ess: Mr.

Speaker, the member misses the point completely. A plan that I was referring to bas nothing to do with the integrated modeL The plan that I was talking about bas to do specifically with distance education. What we are trying to do, of course, as the government, and, indeed, demanded by society today, you cann ot build a system purely for a one service area. There bas to be more of an integrated model. The plan I was referring to was specifically the distance education model. Child Care System Absent Days Ms. Norma Mc Cormick (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Family Services.

In the wake of the budget, the minister bas announced a reduction in the number of absence days for which subsidized daycare parents will be entitled to have their children's daycare costs covered. Can the minister advise this House whether the 10 days which parents will be required to take off without pay as a result of the extension of Bill 22, over which the parents have no control and will be deprived of their income, will be exempted from the reduced number of absence days? Hon. Bonnie Mitch elson (Mi nister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated in answers last week to questions that were quite similar, we have determined that 39 abs ent days in the subsidized child care spaces is a good number. That translates into four weeks of vacation plus 19 sick days. I believe that is an adequate and a fair number of days to allow parents to have their children absent. If there are individual circumstances that might cause us to look at that policy, we would do that on an individual basis. Ms. McCormick: Mr.

Speaker, to deal with the impact of reduced revenue to centres and family daycar e providers, which is the anticipated outcome of this reduction? Will her deparunent be urging centres to overenroll beyond their licensed capacities, to lay off daycare staff, or, alternatively, discontinue seiVice to children who have the misfortune to fall ill, go on holidays or whose parents are forced to take 10 days off without pay? Mrs. Mitchelson: My short answer to that question would be none of the above.

In fact, we have a very generous child care program in the province of Manitoba where we have increased significantly the amount of funding that we spend on child care. We will , in fact, be allowing children to have 39 absent days throughout the year. Those will be covered by subsidy by the taxpayers of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we feel that is fair and that is adequate. That means that children will be able to take a four-wee k holiday still paid for by the taxpayers plus 19 sick days.

As I said in my first answer, if, in fact, there are exceptional circumstances and individual parents and individual families have difficulty with undue circumstances that might be presented, we would look at those. Ms. McCormick: My final supplementary is to the same minister. Mr. Speaker, as MCCA and the child care community are concerned, what specific steps will the minister or her deparunent take to monitor the impact of these cost-cutting measure s on the child care community, children and their parents, to confinn that no negative impact will be felt?

555 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri125, 1994 Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, I have every confidence the policy that will be in place with 39 absent days still subsidized by the taxpayers of Manitoba in most instances will be extremely adequate. I have said before and I will say again that this will allow for a four-week holiday period plus 19 sick days for every child that is in the subsidized system.

I have indicated, too, in my last two answers that, in fact, if there is an individual unusual circumstance whereby a child needs to be absent for very valid reasons over and above that, we will look at those cases on an individual basis. Olarewaju Family Deportation Intervention Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, Felicia Olarewaju and her four children have been in the province of Manitoba for 13 years.

They are an exemplary part of the community and have shared much with the province of Manitoba We have received calls and questions and concerns from students at Gordon Bell, the University of Winnipeg Students' Association, the school of nursing, calls to the MLAs, to the media and to community groups, asking that the government do something about allowing these people to remain in the province of Manitoba I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Culture, Heritage and Otizenship what action the government is prepared to take today to urge the federal government to make an exception which would allow the Olarewaju family to remain in Manitoba and continue to contribute to the life of this province.

Bon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture , Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, the member quite co rrectly has referenced that this is an issue that is before the federal government Our department continues to meet with the Department of Immigration to come forward with an agreement on immigration. In fact, we have officials in Ottawa this week dealing with that. I have no difficulty urging the federal minister to give any citizen fair treatment by the rules and regulations that they have. The question, I am sure, has been noted by the other opposition party. I know the· member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) has an interest in this and last year was urging our government to change the rules and intercede on behalf of people. I know the fonner member for Osborne has some interest in immigration issues and perhaps can use his infl uence in Ottawa to make a sig nifi cant diff erence. Manitoba Sugar Co. Labour Dispute Ms. Ros ano Wowchu k (Swan River): Mr . Speaker, the lockout at Manitoba Sugar is causing serious problems for farmers in southern Manitoba who will not be able to include sugar beets in their plant rotation if a settlement is not negotiated soon.

This will be disastrous for both the sugar beet producers and, as well, will result in thousands of dollars lost out of the Manitoba economy. I want to ask the Premier (Mr. Ftlmon) if he has received a letter from the workers' representative and what steps he will be taking to address the situation so that farmers can proceed with their spring planting plans and include sugar beets in their rotation this year. Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to indicate to the member today that the government has received a request from both the representatives of the employees and the employers to appoint a mediator. I am pleased to announce today that Professor Wally Fox Decent, who was requested by both parties, accepted during the noon hour and will be fonnally appointed this afternoon. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to asking for leave for the honourable Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Ducharme}, it has been brought to my attention that this afternoon sitting up in the public gallery we have Ms. Amanda Fridfinns on. She is up in the gallery today. Amanda made a presentation at the official signing of the proclamation declaring May - -

- - Apri12 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 556 22-28 as Missing Childr en's Week. Her presentation was about runaways. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS St. Vital Curling Club Awards Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Governm ent Services have leave to make a non political statement? [agreed] Bon. Gerald Du charme (Minister of Government Services): Mr. Speaker, it was my pleasure as an honourary life member and now as patron to the St. Vital Curling Club the honour of attending the banquet recently past Saturday.

I know the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render) joins with me in honouring the award of Sport of Excellence that was presented to two of our teams . Mr. Speaker, as you are awa re-in your fondness of curling to have won many, many bonspiels yourse lf, you know how important it is to congratulate these particular teams. Our St. Vital Curling Club, which has been in existence for approximately 65 years, had its first Briar rep, and that was the Dave Smith rink composed of Dave Smith, Peter Nichols, Scott Grant, Charley Selina and Dave Nichols who represented our club and did very well in the Tankard.

Also, we had a second continual winner of the Manitoba--the national junior women's title, and they also won the Canadian title. Mr. Speaker, that particular rink was skipped by Jennifer Jones, Trisha Baldwin, Joe Officer, Donna Malanchuk, Nancy Malanchuk as coach. We also will be honouring shortly a long standing member of that club, Mr. William Hems, who will be awarded at the first of the month the Bill Lumsden trophy. Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the St. Vital Curling Club on the hard wor k they have done in establ ishing their junior program that is now showing the fruits of their many, many hours of work.

Thank you. Missin g Children's Week Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for · Inter lake have leave to make a nonpol itical statement?[agreed] Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, this morning I had the ple asure of attending the official proclamation of Missing Children's Week. As you mentione d prev iously, Amanda Fridfin nson is here from Arborg, a Grade 8 elementary student from Arborg, whose speech that she had presented and won with first place in her 4-H Club was chosen to come this morning and make that presentation.

I know members in the Assembly want to wish her the best and congratulations, and everyone is very proud of her. Thank you. •

(1420) ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Fourth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: On the adjourned debate, the fourth day of debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that this House approve in general the budgetary policy of the government, and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), who has five minutes remaining. The honourable member has indicated that his time has expired. All right. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to ma ke a few comments on this, the seventh budget of this government. I listened attentively to the remarks of the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) on Friday. He was wound up pretty tight on Friday, and you know he insisted, with five minutes left, in fact demanded that he get his five minutes on Monday, so I came here expecting to hear a fin al five minute blast from the member, and now I find out that he is not going to conclude.

557 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 1994 Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to welcome the new members elected in last year's by-electio ns: the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mack intosh), the me mber for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), the member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg ) on this side of the Hous e , and the member for Osbo rne (Ms. McCormick) and the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), I guess also on this side of the House but to my left. I wish them well in what may be a rather short session.

On the other band, our sessions in this House sometimes tend to get stretched on a little longer than one would expect. Mr. Speaker, I want to make some comments on the speech of the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwuds). I listened to pretty much every word that the Leader said on Friday, and I will give him credit for a very well-delivered spee ch, and some decent content as well, although I disa gree with some of the observations that be was making.

The Leader, in his address to the budget speech, started by attacking the trickle-down economic the ory, and I was amazed to see this newfound conversion of the Liberal Party to be anti-trickle down economics. He went on at some length to be talking about bow the trickle-down theories were tried and did not work under Ronald Reagan, and be mentioned Grant Devine and Brian Mulro ney, but I think that it is worth repeating that trickle down theories have been practised by Liberals for a long, long time. (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) I mean, one only bas to look back to the fe deral Liberal government to look at the tickle-down policies that were developed and implemented for this country over the last 20 years. In fact, if the member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) would like to pay attention for a couple of minutes, perhaps be and I could review some of the initiatives of Liberals in this country, Liberals across this country who did their utmost to develop a trickle-down theory of economics in this country.

It was the fe deral Liberal government, the beginning authors of a huge half-a- trilli on fe deral debt that we now have sitting on top of us. It is these Liberals who developed the tax regimes that shifted the burden in successive ye ars from corporations to indi viduals whereby over a 20-year period the preponderance of taxes in this country wer e being pa id by indiv iduals and not corporations. That :regime was authored and implemented by the Liberals, the very Liberals who are now standing up in this House and calling trickl e-down economics a failed theory.

Those same Liberals were the authors of the taxation system that allowed the federal trusts to develop. We will :recall that in the election last year, Lucien Bouchard made quite an effort, at least in the debates and at other opport unities, to point out that the Conservatives under Brian Mulroney last year bad extended the tax-sheltered nature of these family trusts for yet another 20 years. These family trusts were set up by Liberal s. They were set up to shelter millions and millions of dollars for the elites in this country in family trusts that would be untaxed money for 21 years.

The Conservatives simply extended this particular- An Honourable Member: Boondoggle. Mr. Maloway: -boondoggle, as my colleague points out, that was started by these same Liberals who are now talking about bow trickle-down theories do not work. They have been converted a little too late in this particular environment. The fe deral Liberals were also the authors of the super dep letion in oil. They were the authors of the disastrous MURB program where you bad a lot of overvalued real estate being sold to prof essionals for tax credits. That is the tric kle-down theories of the Liberals in practice.

They also defend the same federal government that sets up these taxation measures. I notice that, looking back 20-some years ago to the introduction of the Treasury bran ch's legislation in this House , we found the Liberal Leader of the day, Izzy Asper, explaining away the policies of the fe deral government, ex plaining that - -

- - Apri1 25, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 558 we could not have banks in this province because the fe deral Liberals, who were in charge of the fe deral legislation at that time , were absolutely correct in their lack of desire to have these financial vehicles available in our jurisdiction. So, when we have bad opp ortunities such as the Treasury branch 's initiative back in 1974, when we have bad initiatives like that, where have the Liberals been on initiatives like that? They have been defending shamelessly their federal Liberal friends in Ottawa, making excuses for why things cann ot be done.

Then, Madam Deputy Speaker, that Leader stands in this House the other day, knocks trick le-down theories which he has supported all these years and talks about initiatives that could keep capital in the province such as the prairie stock exchange. •

(1430) But where was he when we brought in Treasury branch legislation which would have st opped the outflow of money from the province of Manitoba, would have kept investment dollars in this province? Where was he and his Liberal colle agues on that particular piece of legislation, as opposed to a prairie stoc k exchange.

I think perhaps there is some merit in exploring an idea like that, but one only has to look at the experience in B.C. to see how negatively the Vancouver stock exchange has worked where it bas drawn all sorts of fly-by-night operators investing in oil wells that do not exist and other sorts of ventur es. This Liberal Leader is somehow sug gesting that Manitoba should have something like that, a prairie stock exchange that is really going to be operating not as a mainline type of exchange .

On the other hand, if the Leader would take the time to look at the benefits that could be accrued to the province through a treasury branch system , a Treasury branch system that has operated in Alberta now since the 193 0s, successfully putting excess monies back into the Province of Alberta Tre asury . Back in 1986, the Treasury branc hes, I beli eve, bad put back something like $30 million just in the last five or six years prior to that time. In Ontario, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Treasury branch equivalent there bad put some- : thing like $70 million back into the treasury of Ontario.

So what we have here are examples of a near-bank system, a near- bank concept, and that is what we are talking about We are talking about the equivalent of a Manitoba bank. This idea has been around for a long time. The legislation for it was brought in in 1974 and passed. The reason that it was not implemented at the time was because the government had the agreement from the local banks here that they would do several things, that they would step forward and involve themselves in areas that were underser viced. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, just last week we had a situation when the member for Point Douglas (Mr.

Hicke

s) on our side of the House stood up in Question Period and asked one of the ministers over there as to why a certain branch of a bank was being closed down in his constitu ency. We ll, that is what the banking institution in this province promised the government back in 1974 if they woul d wit hdraw the tre asur y branch legislation. They promised that they would service the public and that they would take care of the needs of the public wherever possible even if it meant losing the odd dollar here or there. The Royal Bank promised a branch in Bast Kildonan. It has never come through with that promi se.

The promises were made that the credit union system would set up the Northlands bank, and the member for Lakeside who was here at that time, and probably long bef ore that time, knows full well that the credit unions-it was the threat of implementation of the treasury branch system in Manitoba that caused the banks to come forward and say they would do better. They would correct their problem s. There was this promise on the part of the federal government to support the idea of Northlands bank which was owned by the credit unions .

Well, that has all gone for nought over the years and the Northlands bank is no longer around. But once again we are in the same rut of having to thin k and develop vehicles for retaining investment capital in Manitoba, more of which is

559 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 1994 invested outside the province than is invested inside the province. On that basis the government, to its credit, has developed the HydroBonds and then went on to the Grow Bond idea and those have been very well thought out and good programs that of course should be continued.

Under a treasury branch system , Madam Deputy Speaker, it is those treasury branches that would in fact be handling things like the Grow Bond sales and the government accounts and other such situations, but the basic idea behind it is to make venture capital available to businesses in this prov ince. It is not at odds with the credit union movement, because a credit union movement is really designed for small personal type of banking and personal type of loans,

whereas the treasury branches are really geared to the same sort of desires that the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwards) is talking about when he talks about his prairie stock exchange and what this government should be looking at as well, the retention and the reversal of the outflow of investment funds from Manitoba into Manitoba where it can be invested successfully in this prov ince. Now that, Madam Deputy Speaker, is where this Liberal Leader should be reconsidering, where this Liberal Leader should perhaps be reorienting his thinking, as opposed to where it is right now.

Now the Leader of the Liberal Party also dealt with another area that I found rather interestin g. I have to agree with some of his observations on what be had to say about government involvement in monies to businesses. He quoted at length-the Leader of the Liberal Party-the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. I do not have the quote handy here. He picked a certain

section that basically backed up the theory that I always thought they followed, that is, that government should stay away from handing out money will y-nil ly to private businesses. An Honourable Member: Why? Mr. Maloway: Because it does not really wott: as a system. He went on at some length to explain his agreement with that. I think those observations were reasonably valid, because I have always had that view as well.

I know there are members on the other side who have that view as well: when the government gets in the business of handing out grants to busines ses, what they do is they cheese off the rest of the bus inesses. When you have four or five businesses in an area all dealing in the same sort of commodity and one business gets a government grant, what in effect happens is that just gets the other ones mad. That one just gets the rest of them mad at the government.

H the government thinks for one minute that it can get away with handing out $1 6 million, or wha tever the amount of money it was, to businesses and hope somehow that is going to create jobs and get some positive returns for them and maybe allow them to run some more ads on TV promoting what good managers they are-an excuse for an ad, I guess, that is the way to describe it-if the government fee ls that is going to wolk in their favour, then I would suggest to them that they think again.

That particular type of initiative , Madam Deputy Speaker, is not what their own sup porters, what their own people want to see. I could understand that in a growing econo my, in a situation where the fiscal position of the province was such that we had a surplus situation, where we had the $14 -billion debt paid off, I could see the government doing what it is doing in banding out money to business peop le. What we have here is a serious situation where this government is leading us into worse and worse financial situations each year.

While we agree that they should be increasing their spending on vital areas such as education and health care, I cannot agree that they should be -and the businesses should not either. The businesses should be responsible enough. They should be following the Canadian Federation of Independent Business resolutions and refusing to take government money. They should come forward as the good entrepreneurs and capitalists that they are and say: I do not need this; I am doing well on my own. Why should I take money that - -

- April 25, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 560 should be used to fe ed poor kids or educate people? Why shoul d I do that? •

(1440) Madam Deputy Speaker, since 1988, according to their own figures here in the Budget Address, the total debt of this province has gone up 37 percent. It bas gone up from $10 billion to over $14 billion. The fonner Minister of Finance likes to draw some support from that and say, well, we are good managers . What I am trying to point out is that a lot of this is just smoke and mirr ors.

This is a bogus exercis e that this government goes through each year, trying to convince the publi c, trying to convince the taxpayers, that they are really good managers and that it is managing very well in keeping taxes down, when in fact we know that is not true. We know that this government increased its tax revenue last year by expanding the sales tax base on certain items. So it is all show. This government is big on, you know , the canoe during the election and the lottery ads we see right now, all sorts of excuses to run ads.

We have in this budget an area of some interest to some people-- we have bad a couple of calls; I have bad a couple of calls on it the area of the budget dealing with the renovation program. On the surf ace of it, this sounds like it might not be a bad program , but when you look more closely at it, it appears to me that it might not be, at the end of the day, any more than an excuse to run more ads, you know, the canoe-type ads, the campaign-type ads, the sort of kick start to the Conservative election campaign.

Maybe it will be that when the lotteries money runs out for the advertising campaign, we will have another group of ads with the canoe and whatnot, talking about the renovations program. The Home Renov ation Program calls for $1,000 to be contributed by the government when a homeowner puts up $5,000 for renov ations. Well, I can think back to the Schreyer government 's program of Critical Home Repair in which we took care of critical home repairs for a tremendous number of people, critical-type home repair that was required to be done to keep people in their homes.

This program is a middle-class program designed to help the Conservatives in seats that · they want to look good in and want to bold on to. I would suggest to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, there are not that many people that are going to-and I could be wrong on this.

I am prepared to admit that I might be out a little bit on this one, but I think the uptake on this program may be less than . what some people expect I do not see a lot of people putting up $5,000 in a very tough economy to renovate, do certain renovations , and those that do will be more middle-class people who tend to be in the target seats that the Conservatives are particularly interested in. If there is not a lot of uptake , we are going to see the excuse to run ads, we are going to see all these TV ads. Another observation, and I think the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr.

Edwards) observed this as well, is that the $4,0 00 renovation now became $5,000. That is another interesting observation of some of these programs , where the contractors get involved and simply adjust their fe es to take advantage of the program. I can cite you the case of the Minister of Education 's Woddorce 2000 grants, where certain people, trainers, have been charging say maybe $60 an hour for the training, and then when the grant gets put through Workforce 2000 the trainer is now a $120-an-hour trainer. So these programs sometimes do not have the effect that they were intended to have .

Madam Deputy Speaker, had this government expanded essentially the Critical Home Repair Program , as es tablished by the Sch re yer government, run very success full y-and I might add this program was cancelled by the Conservatives under Sterling Lyon. It was brought back by the Howard Pawley government. I was happy to see that when this government came into power, albeit it was a minority government, it kept the Critical Home Repair Program aliv e. What it bas done over the succeeding years is it has just let the program die.

Today the program has been further cut in this budget to now where I think it is maybe $10,000 . The Critical Home Repair Program that the former government bad has been

561 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 1994 all but phased out. Unlike the Lyon government which just axed the program when they came in in 1977 -they axed the Critical Home Repair Program-this government continued the home repair program and now have let it die a slow death over time. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is the type of program that gets results. Its uptake is assured by people who really need the money.

It allows for people who want to put a thousand or two thousand or three thous and into their homes to stay in their homes. 1bere are a lot of older people who would like to stay in their homes , but they need some critical home repair work done, and this type of program would benefit them in a major way and would benefit society, because it would keep the people in their houses longer.

This government has gotten rid, for all intents and pwposes, of that program and they developed now a new program with a threshold that is so high that none of those people who could have qualified under the old system can now qualify. I stopped short of calling it critical home repair for the rich, because it is not quite that, but it is critical home repair for Conservative areas. Well , I guess there were some Liberals around in those days as well, but back in the older days, just to indicate to you how the Conservatives of old governed in Manitoba -and the member for Lakeside (Mr.

Enos) was certainly around then -you know, we still have the old pro ject working paper s by which the government 's, the old Conservative governm ent, looked at each program that was brought in based on its political effect in solid opposition, so lid government, vola tile opposition, volatile government, marginal opposition and marginal government seats . Bon. Oayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): That is you. Mr. Maloway: Well , Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Education is making comments about the seats again.

For three elections now, at least three , he has come up to me in the hall and said, you know, we got you this time. 1be last time around he said he has just given up because it is pretty hopeless. •

(1450) They have tried everything in the last three campaigns and nothing see ms to work, so he has tinall y given up the ghost and gone on to try to save his own seat, because that government over there is more worried about s aving its own seats in the suburbs than it is worried about picking up my seat of Elmwood. I can assure you of that. As a matter of fact, I think they like having me around here. That has to be the secret. That has to be the secret as to why they have n ever been successful, because they had the Premier 's (Mr.

Filmon) own constitutional expert running last time. 1bey have thrown out everything, and n othing has worked. Madam Deputy Speaker, they are obviously trying to get me off track here because they do not want to hear the rest. 1bey do not want to hear about the way they conducted government in times gone by. 1bey had a system, and they said that they have put all the programs into a systematic framework., which deals with all programs in all ridings simultane ously.

They have based the political analysis on the inventory of government programs; the expenditure items considered are concrete and easy to manipulate and describe in the same terms that administrative decisions are taken. Thirdly, they built the political analysis into the fonnal process of cabinet priority review , and through this process they developed a system of values. 1bey conclude at the end of the day by saying that implications for cabin et are obvious: the programs having a high sensitivity index must receive first attention in allocation of funds.

This is es sential for the politic al security of the government. So the question is, Madam Deputy Speaker, where does this Manitoba Home Renovation Program fit into this politic al sensitivity of the government? Whether it was under pro ject working papers back in June of 1968, or whether it is under the curre nt government approach, we can rest assured that this government is essentially - -

- - April 25, 1994 LBGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 562 looking at these programs and designing them with the idea to bow they ·are going to sell and bow they are going to aff ect their political fortunes in certain constituencies and certain areas of this prov ince. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, once again having lost track of my time, I have a couple of observations here that I just cann ot end the day without making.

I know that members oppo site are always happy to bear comments and observations made about the Liberal Party in this Legislature, and the Liberal Party in the federal House, and we have dealt with the Liberal Party at some length in the first few comments that I made, but was really pleased a fe w months ago to turn on the TV and bear that one Brian Mulroney had come back to lif e and made a speech to a group down in Toronto. He could be quite an entertaining guy at times. This speech of Brian Mulroney was quoted across the country.

He made the observation that, in just three or four short months , the new fe deral Liberal government had ap pointed friends and relatives to good jobs in high places; that this new Liberal government bad passed the NAFTA agreement, the North American Free Trade Agreement, which it had complained about and said it was going to do something about, over and over again, during the election.

He said that this new fede ral Liberal government allowed the cruise missile testing, which they had, over and over again, Uoyd Axwortby leading the char ge, saying that they would never involve themselves with when they were in opp osition. Then be finished by saying, and for a moment there I thought I was back in power, and he brought the bouse down with that comment. It only took three or four months for the federal Liberal government to start acting the same way as that old, calcified Conservative government after two terms bad begun acting .

You know, the point is, there is a certain honeymoon that involves any new administration. The fed eral administrati on of Liberals know very well that the honeymoon is going to last for a little while and they can do all these nasty things, they can do all these hypo critical and inconsistent things that they , just months ago, were promising that they would not do. But those of us who have been ar ound, they should too know that time will cure the Liberal prob lem. Just the other day we bad-and I do not have it here. I know it is in my files somewhere -but we had either The Globe and Mail

article or some newspaper quoting Paul Martin, the new Finance minister, saying that, well, we might have to accelerate our deficit reduction targets. You know, things just are not working out so well after three months. We may have to cut, I think it was cut bil lions. An Honourable Member: No, I think be said millions . Mr. Maloway: No, it was not billions. Well, hundreds of milli ons. Well, Paul Martin, Madam Deputy Speaker, was talking about lots, as the new member for Osborne (Ms. McCormick) says, of money that be was going to have to surgically remove from the deficit and from the budget.

So I think we all in this House look forward with interest at what time this group of seven here, the group of seven Liberals-! believe it is-what? -seven casinos for seven Liberals? There are three casinos, and they want four more. The group of seven over here st art trying to sep arate themselves and take that ball and chain off of them that is put on them by their fed eral cousins. As I indicated before, whether it was back in 1974 on the Treasury branch 's legislation, the provincial Liberals were making excuses for their fed eral cousins.

The fede ral Liberals still have this group of seven well under control. This group of seven are still supporting their fe deral Liberal cousins in spite of all the inconsist encies, in spite of the NAFT A, in spite of the cruise missile testing. Now we have a potential of one of their members of their group of seven being app ointed to the Senate. An Honourable Member: Who, who? Mr. Maloway: Well , the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) does not know who it is that could be appointed to the Senate . Could it be that is why the group of seven are so well behaved that they do not

563 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 1994 step out of line? When lloyd says sit, they sit. Could it be that there is a little competition going on in that group of seven for th at Senate appointment? Maybe they will have a lottery, a Liberal lottery for the Senate. I am coming up with these ideas to help them because a year ago they were talking about elected senators. Now there is no real interest in electing the Senate. [interjection] To the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos), they know that if there is an election none of them would have a hope. In the lottery they have at least one chance in seven.

As the member for Lakeside said the other day, he said, I believe, let us wait a while together. I think those are pelhaps wise words, because the Liberals ar e going to find themselves more uncomfortable in this House as time goes on, as they continue to stand up in lock step with their federal cousins. When that Paul Martin budget comes down next spring I think we are all going to be ver y interested. We are not going to be happy with it.

We are not going to be happy with the next Paul Martin budget, because it is going to hack, it is going to slash, it is going to really emphasize, for the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. :Edwards), just what trickle-down economics is all about, the trickle-down economics that he decries so much in here . He will see in spades, as the federal Liberals scurry back to that comfortable position that they have held over the last 20 years in the economic sphere in this country as the main authors of all the trickle-down theories that the Leader says have failed across this country and across the world.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a lot of time yet to watch the Liberals in this House and pick out inconsis tencies. We will be able to show, I think, very clearly to the voters of this province that the Liberals really are not new, the Liberals really have not changed. They are the same old tired Liberals that we have had to deal with now for the last hundred year s. As was the case back in 1988-1989, we took care of the Liberal problem at that point in time, and I am sure we will be able to do that again. •

(1500) I have some other areas I wanted to. deal with that I thought might assist the government in developing some areas of revenue, but I think- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Elmw ood 's (Mr. Maloway) time has expired. Bon. Gerald Duch arme (Minister of Government Services): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is my pleasure and a privilege for me to rise in this House today and address the seventh budget of our government. First of all, I did not get a chance to speak in regard to the throne debate.

I wish to welcome the Pages and, of course, welcome the new Lieutenant -Governor, his firs t participation in the House, along with the new members of the House, the members for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), St. John s (Mr. Mackintosh), Osb orne (Ms. McCormick), Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) and Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg).

I have not had a chance to talk to too many of the new ones; however, we often talk about the differences going on in the House and the numbers that are here, but I know the Speaker, if he is li stening, will re alize that when we were introduced to this House in 1986, we have never known this particular room to be overflowing in an y one way, whether it be opposition or government side. Madam Deputy Speaker, I had the privilege of recognizing some St.

Vital rinks earlier today in a nonpolitical speech, and also I would like to congratulate and talk shortly in regard to some of the people that I went ab out visiting in my const ituency since we la st left the House, presenting many of them with the 125 medall ions. Maybe I could just take a minute to tell you the ones that I did present and had the honour to present. We had Bea Sharpe from MSOS; we had AI Loveri dge from MSOS; Sister Gabriel le Cloutier from St. Amant; Ed Applin from the Mustangs; Lou Spado from St. Vital Mustangs; Vic Rose from the St.

Vital Curling Club; Ron Koskie, a teacher and a worker at Norberry - -

- April 25, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 564 Community Club; Pat Decksheimer, who is also with the community club ; Harold Newis ; Cam King; Billie Lucas; Rev. Msgr. R.J.H. Larrabee; and Gladys Rothwe ll, posthumous ly; and of cours e the person I recog nized earlier today, Dutchie Hems.

Al so, I would like to mention that under the ·infrastructure program we were glad to receive in my old alma mater-Glenlawn Collegiate will be participa ting in a new structure that will be taking place, a much-needed structure in that part of the city, a structure that will be probably one of the nicest art centres and complex in south St. Vital. It bas been long awaited by the arts community. I will watch it go up from my office across the street at 753 St. Mary 's, and I will make sure that it goes up and everything is looked after well.

Madam Deputy Speaker, let me begin by first thanking my colleague the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson) for bringing forward the budget I would also though like to acknowledge Mr. Clayton Manness, the member for Morris, who throughout the years that I have been a minister wor ked bard along with the whole Treasury Board in developing this compl ex. We told him several years ago, six budgets ago, that we would be bringing forw ard and gradually bring forward a plan of action for Manitobans. This is a fulfillm ent of their bard worlc. I can say one short thing about the previous Minister of Fmance.

I did not always agree with the decisions that be gave me as a minister, but I will tell you one thing, be was fair at the Treasury Board table and be reacted to every minister the same way when we dealt with one issue. He made sure that we were always beard , so I thank him for that. Madam Deputy Speaker, since our government took office in '88, we have worlced very bard at building a stronger Manitoba so that we may provide opportunities for our families in future generations.

We have worked diligently in managing the sca rce and precious financial resources of government to ensure Manitobans can en joy the vital services that we cherish in our society , most notab ly, health, education and family services. Over the course of the pa st yea r, we of government have endeavoured to communicate our dedica tion to this beautiful province and the people we serve . This year, as we celebrate the International Year of the Family, I think it is appropriate to refle ct upon the gifts that our families have brought into our live s.

It is their strength that propels our energies to str ive, to innovate and to build our communities, our province and our country . Let us not forget that it is the family which is the infrastructure of our society. It is the family that is the nucleus and nurturer of our values, and it is the family which is the heartbeat of our society . These are the precious resources of government, Manitobans worlcing together with their families and their communities in building a stronger Manitoba today and tomorrow.

Madam Deputy Speaker, as was stated in the recent throne speech and the budget spee ch, the foundation of our provi nce's economic strategy is the principle of fiscal re sponsibility. The 1994 budget demonstrates our commitment and our allegiance to that responsibility despite many external factors that are beyond our control. Madam Deputy Speaker, since taking office in '88, our government continues in making Manitoba more competitive and attractive for businesses to locate here and create jobs.

As the Dominion Bond Rating Service cited, Manitoba bas been and I quote, the most fiscally responsible province in Canada, 1987 to present. We have demon strated our ability to keep government expenditure down and live within our means. I am extremely proud of the fact that our government bas bad the longest tax freeze in Canada. Madam Deputy Speaker, today I wish to highlight the many accomplishments in the Department of Government Services and the activities undertaken by the Seniors Directorate . The reason why I am devoting that spee ch because I did not have the opportunity of participating in Estimat es.

We did not seem to discuss the many things that happened in Government Service s-!

565 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 1994 guess because it is many, many things, that is the good news of this government. Someti mes the opposition does not like to talk about the good things. As a matter of fact, not normally do they talk about the good things of the government. Madam Deputy Speaker, last year in my address to the budget, I ann ounced at that time that the Accommodation Development Division of my dep artment carried ou t an extensive inventory of all gov er nment le ased and owned office accommodations throughout the provin ce.

That was the first time that such an invent ory of government accommodations bad ever been undertake n. The da ta that we have collected provides us with solid and factual information so planners and managers are better able to control and manage costs more ef fe ctively. Client department occupants of government facilities also now have more detailed and better information on their actual program accommodation costs.

The most tangible benefits from this initiative are already being realized with the implementation of accommodation cost recovery system , which is Phase 2 of our process in managing more responsibly. Armed with this new inf ormation, we are working with our client department occupants more proactively than was previously possible to reduce underutilized space and accommodation relate d program costs. We are also continuing to wodt at reducing the leasing budget through a review of all of these properties to identify opportunities for reduction.

By conducting the review, we will be able to determine whether space is sufficiently utilized and whether the client department occupants still require the existing allocated amount of space. •

(1510) Our goal in reducing the leasing budget is to fully utilize our own s pace. When the opportunity exists at the time of a lease expiry, our plans are to terminate that lease by moving the occupants to another longer-term le ase premise or to an owned premise. One recent example I will give you, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the Legis lative Counsel Legal Translations ' move from 444 St. Mary Avenue to the Woodsworth Building, the ann ual average cost saving of $22 0, 00 0.

A larger example of reutilizing vacant owned space by back filling from leased space has been the reoccupancy of the Norquay Building as a result of the Information Systems Management Corporation moving to its own building. The final planned move of Labour, Worltplace Safety and Health from leased space to the Norquay Building in June of '94 will result in another estimated saving of $315,000 per ann um.

The leasing budget will continue to be reduced again, as ann ounced in the budget in '94-95 by the ongoing re loca tion from lea sed to owned occupatio ns and the continuation of a more aggressive lease nego tiation process to attain more favourable lease rates reflective oftoday's market condi tions. As you know, it is probably a good time to buy and lease space and bank this type of space today. A reduced payment also will be continu ed to Manitoba Properties Inc. We all know that story, and we are living with it now. I know the previous Minister of Finance knew all about that .

Why anyone would ever sign such a disas ter-! am not going to mention whose names were on that lease , the ministers and the Premier of the day, but we all know that it was a complete disaster. This saving will also occur as a result of restructuring of property assets held by the corporation. Also, we have endeavoured to wolk with our Telecommuni cations branch and have made substantial progress in the establishment of the province 's telecommunication netwolk. I must mention, I have had the honour of wolking with an individu al that we brought in a couple of years ago, John Helston.

John, who has just retired, has worked with us, along with assisting with the province 's introduction of important services such as the Drug Program Inf ormation Netw ork and the Department of Family Servic es ' ability to readily access child care inf ormation. It has resulted in considerable cost savings to Manitoba taxpayers in the form of reduced government communication costs . The existence of this netw ork will now provide -

- Apri125, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 566 unlimited opportunities for improvements in efficiency of government operations and enhanced geo graphic neutrality and the provision of government programming to all Manitoba residen ts. Madam Deputy Speaker, also, recently Manitoba hosted the Western Provincial Telecommunications Conf erence in Winn ipeg, where the various components of the information infrastructure were addre ssed and discussed at great length.

Each provincial and territori al government compared technologies with the purpose of becoming more cost efficient, and that is what our government bas done-more cost efficient . Another important objective that was achieved at the conf erence was the forming of sharing agreements between western provinces, with the intent of lowering telecommunication costs for each government . The Telecommunications branch bas also achieved signif icant savings on behalf of government departments , through the use of the Manitoba Telephone System 's much-wo rked Preferred Advantage direct distance dialing plan.

Essentially, what this means is that ever y government telephone number in the province was placed on one plan to obtain a larger discount on our long-distance bill. As a result of being on this plan, the government will realize a 45 percent discount on all original long-distance bills, with an additional 14 percent savings on the remaining bill because of our vol ume. Consequent ly, again, in our budget, we will be saving an approximation of almost $1. 5 million on communication costs.

Madam Deputy Speaker, Telecommunications bas also participated in a pilot presentation of video conferencing for Distance Education. This very important initiative is enabling the delivery of a modem-day electronic communication services to rural and remote are as. This technology bas enormous potential for the future. As my colleague the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) stated in his addre ss, and I quote : "Our government bas bad success in bringing greater pride and performance to specific services through : the introd uction of special operating agencie s." The Fleet Vehicles Agency in my department was the first agency created at the provincial level in Canada. Its achievements thus far in managing the bottom line are ind eed outstan ding, and I congratulate them . The Fleet Vehicles Agency was created to provide a centrali zed fleet management program, while achieving economies of scale in lowering overall fleet costs to the government.

I believe the key to the su ccess of this particular agency is the accordance of direct responsibility for results in management flexibility in making decisions affecting all areas of the bu siness. What I found most interesting and noteworthy for government operations is that operating goals and objectives are not permanent and will change from year to year as ob jectives are met and new initiatives become important. The agency is dedicated to a policy of continuous performance improvement.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the following is one striking example of bow we have reduced costs , the things that we do not seem to talk about during the course of the debate or questions from the House . As a re sult of staff being directly responsible for results, vehicle repairs over the past two years have been reduced by $1 million. This cost saving is attributed to the new rate structure which holds departments more acco untable for the use of their vehicles. Departments are now choosing to return vehicles to avoid paying these repair costs.

The point that I am trying to highlight is we are spending taxpayers ' dollars better today than we did yest erday and especially since we became government in 1988. The second success story in Gover nment Services is the creation of the second special operating agency, the Materials Distribution Agency , a now full-cost recovery operation which charges back all costs from the purchase inve ntory, warehousing, transportation and administration of

567 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 1994 stock commodity. The force drive of the agency is providing value- added client ser vice while building partnerships with clients to meet their individual nee ds. Madam Deputy Spe ake r, as my colleague, again, the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson) has stated, Manitoba has been lobbying the fe deral government for a national infra structme program long before the present Liberal government was elected. It is very exciting for Manitoba to be the first province to have a large block of projects approved under the infrastructure worlcs agreement.

Among the scheduled projects, along with the one I previously mentioned, close to home with me was Glenla wn, but also the one that touches home was a project that I wodced with as a member of Oty Council as well as Urban Affairs minis ter was the walkway along the Ass iniboine and then along the walkway behind the Legislative Building, and then at the final year of the Core Area Agreement, we did the walkway. While among the scheduled projects of the infrastru cture program, construction will begin this summer on the south legislative grounds .

The Assini boine River walkway will be extended past the south grounds of the Legislative Building. The proje ct will be completed by 1995 to honour Manitob a's !2 5th anni versa ry in Conf ederation. Madam Deputy Speaker, in keeping with our government 's policy of sustainable deve lopment, my government has made significant progress in working towards the goals that we have outlined in this House.

In 1989, our government introduced a policy aimed at encouraging suppliers to develop and provide recycled environmentally sensitive products on a competitive basis, as well as to encourage industries to develop the supply of such produ cts. In each of the three years since the policy was announced, the Purchasing branch bas procured well over a million dollars' worth or products containing recycled content. Madam Deputy Speaker, under the objective of increasing the government-wide purchase of environmen tally so und and eco nomica lly sustainable products , the following were reported in '92-93.

We spent approximately $433,000 on reuseable office stationery supplies which represented approximately 20 percent of all our office stationery supply; 20, 000 litres of recycled oil purchased and approximately 30,000 recycled solvents purchased.

There was approximately 30 2,000 litres of gasohol purchased by the government for their vehicle s, which was approximately $130 ,000, or 3.7 percent of the total gov ern ment motor fuel purchased; also , approximately $1 million of recyclable stationery products purchased by Manitoba Government Services '92-93 representing a 33 percent increase over '91 and '92. 1bis is approximately close to 10 million sheets of stationery. • (15 20) Madam Deputy Speaker, $86,000 was spent on fabricated metal produ cts, 25 to 10 0 percent recycled; almost another quarter of a million spent on recycled medical supplies, of that, 15 to 40 percent recycled content; and $1 86,000 spent on glass beads made from recycled glass for our highway market.

Government Services also co-chaired a national committee which is looking at ways of increasing government procurement of environmentally sensitive product. I think this information provides subs tantial ev idence of our government 's commitment and our efforts in this area. To achieve a 50 percent reduction of the '88 per capita waste flows to landfills by January 1, 2000, as set out by my colleague the honourable Minister of Environm ent, Government Services implemented various waste reduction programs.

Presently these programs have achieved an average of 31 percent waste reduction in government owned and operated buildin gs. In the area of waste management, we have had some paper rescue for nonconfidential paper. There are present ly, I believe, 47 government owned or leased locations which have participated in the program. There is approximately 85 tons of paper being collected from the Wmnipeg locations alone which generated revenue in I believe the vicinity of close to a million dollars. If you - -

- - April 25, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 568 calculate that I believe to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) , we probably saved almost 1 ,400 full -grown trees. Madam Deputy Speaker, we go through an estimated 3,900 cubic yards of cardboard, and it was collected from approximately 18 government operated buildings by the waste removal contract. This cardboard, for those who are not aware, is shippe d to mills in British Columbia and Ontario.

One hundred percent of just the telephone directories that we have around the particular government offices were collected and recycled throughout the province . 1bere were 14 government-o perated buildings that joined the newspaper recycling program. As you look around, all the cafeterias have collection bins for aluminum and soft drink containers for recycling. Our government-owned buildings have implemented even a cooking oil recycli ng program. A plastic No. 2 IIDPE bottling recycling program was implemented at the School for the Deaf building.

Seven government locations are using various methods to compost kitchen food preparati on waste. 1bese locations are right here in the Legislative Building, along with two or three other buildings throughout the provin ce. Approximately 12 tonnes of waste were composted in Winnipeg, producing about 11 2 cubic metres of compost. In addition, this waste composting is also carried out at other locations in the city as well as at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre.

As I am speaking to you today, I pick up a glass of water, and we all know the importance of the wa ter supply in Winnipeg and throughout Manitoba and especially to the city of Winnipe g. In this area we often talk in regard to the area of water consumption, and those who travel throughout the United States and other parts of Ca nada rea liz e the impor ta nce of water preservation. Reports received to date indicate that, in our particular department, savings varying from 4. 9 to 51 percent have been achieved in our various buildings .

Buildings that currently have no water-metering devices are being retrofitted so that the water · · conservation performance can be verified. Existing faucets in government-operated buildings are being retrofitted with water conservation devices. Flush meters are being ad justed to use less water. There is also an emphasis on preven tative maintenance practices to reduce water losses through leak age . For example , Madam Deputy Speaker, the Agassiz Youth Centre in Portage renovated the pull drainage system and projects annual savings of close to a quarter of a million gallons of water.

The Portage Correctional Institution reduced water by 28 percent . The Manitoba Buil ding had a 29 percent reduction, and the W oodsworth Building just across the way had a 17 percent reduction in water consumption. Madam Deputy Speaker, these initiatives further demonstrate the caring approach to conservation and the saving of public dollars. It has been a continued wolk from our department since 1988. In October of '91, I as minister requested the Property Management Division of the department to consider introducing the concept of total quality management philosophy to staff.

Since that time, I am pleased to advise that the introduction has proceeded well. Today there are in excess of 40 improvement teams consisting of management and staff working on procedures which will improve efficiency and save money. The following examples are some of the improvements suggested by employees through this process. For instance, while analyzing operating costs, one of the employees in the Provincial Building in Beause jour, Technical and Energy Services staff discovered that electricity costs were high and they were climbing. This meant that we had to explore better ways of heating that building.

It was determined that savings could be obtained by installing a natural gas boiler. Accordingly , the mechanical

section of the technical resources designed a new system that will heat the building by natural gas provided that gas continues to remain cheaper than electri city. If in the future the price of gas is greater than electricity, this system can be converted back in a

569 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 25, 1994 few hours. The capital cost of that pro ject was in the vicinity of $25,000, and the ann ual savings in energy costs over two years of operation was and has been approxim ately $40,000. Another example of co-o peration is demonstrated when a team consisting of trade st aff, security staf f and management co operatively modified their working hours to enable them to provide a service to client departments earlier in the morning and later at night to ensure that they do not interfere with client operations .

In addi tion, trade staff will be expected to work one Saturday in a four-week period without overtime to mini miz e disruption if systems and/or equipment should require shutdown. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have just tried to give you indications and examples of how our government has been working to reduce costs. As yo u probably appr ec iate , as we reduce in Government Services, it allows money to fiow over into our other departments that. as you know, eat up the majority of monies that are available.

I have just tried to give you, even with this one example that I just mentioned, the kind of teamwork that can save Manitoba taxpayers a lot of money while improving service to our clients . let me illustrate one particular example which further drives the point home . To give you an example, one Friday evening the supervisor on secu rity on duty at the legislative Bu ilding received a long-distance call from a travel agent in Florida. Sever al elderly citizens of rural Manitoba were mugged while waiting to boaro a cruise ship, and one couple lost all their iden tification, including passports.

They were not able to board the ship , which was scheduled to leave the next morning. Their representative in Florida called Ottawa. They called Toronto and the Canadian department of foreign affairs offices and the state offices of Florida and Texas , Madam Deputy Speaker, all to no avail. No one could help or assist them. The staff on shift at the legislative Building advised that they were not able to take any action until Monday morning.

The supervisor, however, upon hearing this, suggested that perhaps the Vital Stats branch could assi st and advised the caller in Florida that he could atte mpt to locate the official responsible . After waking several members of the Vital Stats branch in the early morning hours, a proof of identity was forwarded by fax to Florida and the couple successfully proceede d on with their trip. • (15 30) Madam Deputy Speaker, this is the type of co-operation my staf f- and we call it bench marking. This is to say, they are meeting with also corpo rations who are re co gnized for their excellence in whatever they do.

They are meeting with organizations who have implemented practices where they are recognized as leaders in their field, and we are adopting these procedures for use in government operations . Staff are also corresponding with other jurisdictions to ascertain what type of procedures are carried out in other building management operat ions across Canada.

Madam Deputy Speaker, during this process, in benchmarking and meeting the private sector and other governments, we have found the private sectors have also congratulated us on some of the inroads that we have taken and have used some of our ideas, so it is a two-way street, and it shows that governments have not always been behind even the private sectors in everything that they do with their empl oyees. Our employees are always looking at ways to look after and to make things more efficient.

This action I speak of has led this division to hold meetings with large clients to determine if the services we are providing are meeting the needs of the client department. In short. the concept that we all know, rQM, may be defined as, and I quote , a way of doing business that stresses co-operation and relies on the talents and capabilities of employees and management working as a team to constantly improve the services we provide . Madam Deputy Speaker, I did mention that we have initiated to work on the legislative Building shortly .

There will be work shortly to repair the exterior staircase at the north end entrance of the legislature. There is advanced corrosion of the - -

- - Apri1 25, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 570 steel rei nfor cement of the structural slab. The supporting walls and staircase are no longer watertight and nu merous cracks are throughout the wall area. This has dev eloped over a long period of time. Then we will start working on the restoration of the upper part of the building. Madam Deputy Speaker, in the short period of time that I am going to be allowed, maybe I could carry on with these types of programs that we have talked about when we get to Estimates. I just wanted to highlight some of the important issues that we do at Government Services .

The Seniors Directorate which is under my responsibility and brought up earlier in the House, there were questions in reg ard to Council on Aging. I say that the Seniors Directorate continues to work hard in order to fulfill their ob jective of being a central source of contact for seniors, seniors organizations and other government departments. Throu ghout the past year, many individuals have contacted outreach staff or called the toll-free seniors infonnation line to obtain infonnation and assistance regarding seniors programs and services. Madam Deputy Speaker, can you tell me how much time I have?

Mad am Deputy Spea ker: The honourable member has eight minutes remaining. Mr. Ducharme: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Seniors Direc torate has also continued to work very hard to address elderly abuse in the province of Manitoba. This year, as a result of our ongoing work over the last several years, a manual was drafted for the development of multidisciplinary teams as a response to particularly challenging cases of elderly abuse.

Over the past fe w yea rs, service providers throu ghout the province have expressed inte rest in the multiteam ap proach, and the Manitoba Seniors Directorate has responded by providing another how-to community-based manual. Essential ly, the manual is a resource tool for prof essionals who work with the elderly . This multiteam approach requires the partic ipation of a broad representation of professionals who are involved with situations of elderly abuse in our communiti es. I hope that prof essionals will fi nd this new manual useful.

It will serve to bring together a variety of disciplines to provide more informed and co-o rdinated communal-based alternatives and respond to these deplorable societal ills. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is no set fonn ula for the composition and manner in which the team will function, rather flexibility and adaptability are the key to making the process work. It should be fas hioned and tailored to respond to the needs of each particular communi ty.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I am extremely pleased that the Council on Aging is relocating from the Department of Health to report dire ctly to the Minister responsible for Seniors for several reasons. The direct link between the minister and council will be re-established, as I believe it was origin ally intended in 1980, when it was originally set up by the minister, at that time, the Honou rable Bud Shenn an. The mandate of that council has not changed. It remains a council to assist government in developing po licies and programs to accommod ate the changing needs and demo graphics of the population.

This move re affirms the fact that seniors are actively involved in all areas of society, not only health. Sen iors interests include housing, transportation, economic security, education and family life . Since the council reaches and speaks with many seniors, it will be able to relay the issues and concerns of seniors directly to the Minister responsible for Seniors, thereby strengthening the seni ors' voice at the cabinet table .

Madam Deputy Speaker, the council will be able to work more closely with the Seniors Directorate in producing research and infonn ation material that is a very, very necessary benefit to the seniors . Links between the directorate and the council will be strengthened, and any duplication or overlap eliminated. Our government values the advice and guidance of the council on policies and programs for seniors . In 1988, when our government took office, we

571 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 1994 made a commitment to specifically involve and consult with seniors. This move reinforces that commitment. As well, we shall continue to build and strengthen our partnership with the senior population of our province. I wish to thank you for the opportunity of high lighting the accomplishments of my department today. I will further elaborate again when we get to the Estimates, and I hope that we get to spend some time at Estimates this year, as we were long forgotten last year. We have made great strides in improving seiVice delivery to our clients.

We will continue to worlc hard to further improve the way in which we do business and make government ' work better. We will continue our vigilance of being fiscally respon sible and managing our financial res ources so that we may build a stronger Manitoba for ourselv es, our children and our grandchildren. Agai n, I thank you for the opportunity of addressing the Budget Debate. I must say that I did not mention again that I have enjoyed, and I con t inue to enjoy, corresponding with my constituents in the Riel area.

I continue to do so, and as people remember, as they talk around the house and they mention different things that go on, I can ass ure you that I continue and enjoy the seven elections that I have been involved in in the Riel area. The main pwpose is to keep in touch with those people in Riel. Every one of us knows that this particular budget that we have brought forward was just a part of our whole program and our whole process of developing budgets through our last seven.

That is our plan, that has been our plan, and the people of Manitoba will know by the result of this budget that we will do what we say in continuing to have a balanced budget in the next several years. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I appreciate the opportunity to speak in today's Budget Debate. I want to first of all recognize, since I did not have the opportunity during the throne speech debate to speak, to welcome the new Pages here today to this session.

Joanne Jacyk, for exam ple, one of those who is new this year, is a colleague of my daughter at Beliveau School in St. Boniface. She has been, I guess, in the same grade as my middle daughter for a number of years, and I have known her for about 10 years or so, have had the opportunity of seeing her grow up, and it is a real pleasure to have her in the Legislature. I know she will gain a great deal from this and be an excellent Page. (Mr. Speaker in the Cbair) Mr. Speaker, I look forward to discussing the budget.

I think that some of the members who spoke before me, the member who just spoke for example, went over a lot of accomplishments in his department as his means of addressing the budget speech. I think one could look at that and say, well perhaps it is interesting for him to put that on the record, on the under hand not necessarily very relevant for this particular budget. •

(1540) I think we have to deal with this government's record over the last six, seven years, and it is something they do not want to hear about. They are pretty embarras sed about it. In the light of day, in the truth of this Chamber, they do not like to hear about that dismal record because in fact it has been dismal over the last six or seven years. It has been a very difficult grind for Manitobans, generally, to have to endure this government as they had to endure the Lyon government.

Of course, the Lyon government coming in the late '7 0s and early '80s ushered in a recession to Manitoba, and a number of the students of that recession are in the cabinet today and, of course, continue those policies right through. Even those that were not actually in the government at that time worshipped at the shrine of the Premier at that time. Of course they wanted to continue with those policies. The former Minister of Health who now has difficulty occupying himself, getting into little mischievous things and playing games in here because he is never asked a question, was in the cabinet at that time.

He at that time was learning, I think, very well how Sterling Lyon was governing - -

- April 25, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 572 at that time and wanted to finish the job. He bas bad an opportunity , unfortunately for Manitob am, to finish that job as Minister of Health and do a lot of damage and destruction to the health care system in this province. 1be Minister of Education (Mr. Mannes s), while not in government at that time, Mr. Speaker, was on some boards and commissions and, of course , was watching carefully, ensuring that be would have an opportunity to get into political life later on and carry on the legacy of one Sterling Lyon and his government at that time.

Of course, the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos) bas bad a band in Conservative gov ernments over the years right from the time that Duff Roblin and Walter Weir were Premiers of this province to the days of Sterling Lyon and now the Gary Filmon government. I do not think that things have changed a great de al. I beard actually some interesting stories about the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos) when be was a new minister at the time of the Duff Roblin government, and at that time the member for Lakeside was, I think, the minister responsible for mines, energy and mines at that particul ar time.

There was a delegation from northern Manitoba that came forward and wanted to see mine ins pe ctors loca ted in all of the norther n communities where mines were located. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, there was only one mines inspector, a saf ety inspector located in Winnipeg at that time. As I be ard the story -[interjection] Yes, the minister at that time, the member for Lakeside listened dutifully to all the presentations for about an hour and then be put his fee t up on his desk and be said-[inteJjection] The minister now denies that be did that. Well, maybe be will not deny this.

He said my job is not to wor ry about safety of miners. My job is to encourage investment in this province and to get companies in this provi nce, and be refused to deal with it. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, that was later said in debate , and I was told, as the story goes, that-[inte rjection] Yes, of c ourse , I was not here at the time-the member challenged the member of the Legislat ure , Mr. Barrow, who was the · member for F1in Flon at the time, when be repeated this story in the Legislature, be challenged him to go outside and say it outside, and be did. The member for Lakeside (Mr.

Enos) probably recalls that particular incident and that issue very well because I think the person who relayed that story to me relayed it very accurately and the member for Lakeside knows that. There is a great deal to say, I guess, about what the government bas fa iled to do, bow they have burt the economy of Manitoba over the last number of years. If we look at their deficit, Mr. Spe aker-we can look at the deficit that this government bas bad in place over the last number of years. I find it rather galling that they would stand up, and the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stef amon) would stand up and blame, throughout the budget speech, the condition of Man itoba 's finances on the previous government , even now seven budgets into this government. It is rather shocking to see that kind of performance , because this government bas run up the largest deficits in the history of this pro vince. As a matter of fac t, in '92-93, they said it was going to be-listen to this. This is the Honou rable Clayton Manness, at that time Minister of Fmance , who predicted in '92-93 that the deficit would be $330 million. I do not think you want to ask what it actually was.

After predicting that it was going to be $330 million, it came in at $762 mil lion. As a matter of fa ct, there was actually another $100 million; the fo rmer member for Rossmere said that, because of the additional $10 0 mill ion owing to the fe deral government, it was actually $862 million. The member for Monis (Mr. Manness) bows his bead in shame because be is not very proud of that particular prediction that be made.

He bas been off in his employment figures and investment figures for the province in a similar way, but be certainly bas been off in the deficit -$330 million, be said, and it came in at $762 million or $862 million, depe nding on which figures you want to use.

573 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Ap ri125, 1994 Then the next year he thought he did pretty we ll. He predicted $367 million, and then his successor, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) at the present time, bad to announce during the budget speech that it is actually $461 million , nearly another hundred million dollars out, over 25 percent out in that particular budget, following on the previous miscalculation of some $400 million to $500 million in their budget . These are the kinds of facts we have had put before the people of Manitoba in this legislative Chamber. Of course, Mr.

Speaker, we have to doubt their $296-million figure, which bas been reduced by some $90 million by lottery revenues , which is their latest tax that they have placed on the backs of Manitobans-- $296 million, because we are not certain at all that the government is going to be a ccurate in this prediction, even though the ministers have changed faces, changed places . In fact, we hope the new minister is better able to predict what his deficit might be than the previous minister.

The fact is, since it is the same government and the same cabinet and the same Treasury Board, $296 million may well be more like $400 million or $500 million, esp

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-13a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 13a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	180b5e26f8c958ddb4ae7d13824f9c75585344e7

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).