Manitoba Hansard — 29 June 1987 (Sitting 83A, 33rd Legislature, 2nd Session)

33-2-83a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MANITOBA Monday, 6 July, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. PRESE NTING PETITIONS MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I beg to present the Petition of John Richard Mallea, George Kent Gooden, Robert Earl Beamish, Gerald Roy Butler and Gary Thomas Brazzell, praying for the passing of

An Act to Continue the Brandon University Foundation. MADAM SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions PRE SENTIN G REPORTS BY STANDIN G AND SPECIA L COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: I beg to present the Second Report on the Commit tee of Industrial Relations. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your Committee met on Tuesday, June 23 and Thursday, June 25, 19 87 in Room 254 of the Legislative BuilJing, and on Thursday, July 2, 19 87 in Room 255 of the Legisative Building to consider Bills referred. Your Committee heard representations on Bill No. 61 -

An Act to amend The Labour Relations Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les relations du travail, as follows: Mr. Sidney Green -Manitoba Progressive Party; Mr. Ma rvin Samphir -City of Winnip eg Law � Department; ' Mr. Jeff Rose -Canadian Union of Public Employees; Mr. Paul Moist -Canadian Union of Public Employees; Mr. Ed Blackman - Canadian Union of Pub lic Employees; Mr. Douglas Machan -Manitoba Health Organizations Inc.; Prof. Neil Tudiver -University of Manitoba Faculty Association; Mr. Wilfred Hudson -Manitoba Federation of Labour; Ms. Vera Chernecki -Manitoba Organization of Nurses Association; Mr. John Lang -Confederation of Canadian Unions; Ms.

Leslie Spillett -International Ladies' Garment Workers Union; Mr. Len Stevens -United Steel Workers Union; Mr. Bruno Zimmer -Union of Food and Commercial Workers; Mr. Ron Wally -Manitoba Association of Health Care Professionals; Mr. Daniel Que snel -Canadian Manufacturers Association; 3601 Mr. Robert Ages - Machinists Local 484; Mr. Frank Goldspink -The Communist Party; Mr. William Gard ner -Winni peg Chamber of Commerce; Mr. Kam Gajdosik -Construction Labour Relations Assoc. of Manitoba; Mr. Howard Raper -Communications and Electrical Workers of Canada. Written Submission: Manitoba Fashion Institute Inc.

Your Committee has considered: Bill No. 61 -An Act to amend The Labour Relations Act· Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les relations du travail, and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. All of which is respectfully submitted. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINI STERIA L STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I beg leave to table the First Annual Report for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1987, the Manitoba Law Fou ndation; to table the Annual Report, 19 86-87 Manitoba Police Commission; to table the Annual Report, 19 86-87, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . . INTRO DUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the loge on my left where we have visiting with us today Mr. Jean Leclerc, depute de Taschereau de I' Assemblee nationale de Queb ec.

On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to our Legislature this afternoon. SPEAKER'S RULING MADAM SPEAKER: Also before moving to Oral Questions, I have a ruling for the House. On Monday, June 29, 1987, the Honourable Member for Tuxedo rose on a matter of privilege alleging that the Minister responsible for MPIC had misled the House. When a matter of privilege is raised, before allowing it to be proceeded with, the Speaker must be satisfied that:

Monday, 6 July, 1987 (

a) the matter is being raised at the earliest opportun ity; (

b) the member raising the matter must conclude his or her remarks with a motion proposing a reparation or a remedy ; and (

c) sufficient evidence must be presented to suggest that a breach of privilege has occurred to warrant setting aside the regularly scheduled business of the House . The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition did conclude his remarks with a motion , thereby satisfying condition (b). On the matter of timeliness, there have been several instances in this House where previous Speakers have ruled matters of privilege out of order because they were not brought to the attention of the House until the day after they arose.

In relation to the establishment of a prima facie case, the following extracts from the authorities should be noted: On page 205 "Maingot's Parliamentary Privilege in Canada" makes the follow ing observations respecting the distinction between "misleading" and "deliberately misleading" : "To allege that a Member has misled the House is a matter of order rather than privilege and is not unparliamentary whether or not it is qualified by the adjective 'unintentionally' or 'inadvertently' . To allege that a Member has deliberately misled the House is also a matter of 'order ', and is indeed unparliamentary .

However , deliberately misleading statements may be treated as a contempt." From the foregoing it is clear that a Member has breached the privileges of the House or committed a contempt against the House by misleading the House only if the Member has clearly done so deliberately. The motion offered by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition refers to the Minister having "misled" the House rather than having "deliberately misled" it. A Member raising a matter of privilege which charges that another Member has "deliberately misled" the House must support his or her charge with proof of intent.

No such proof was presented by the Honourable Opposition Leader . I have reviewed Hansard most carefully and have noted that the Honourable Opposition Leader, while speaking in support of his matter of privilege, presented several different accounts of the same events as recalled and reported on by different individuals.

Beauchesne Citation 322 states that : " It has been formally ruled by Speakers that a statement by a Member respecting himself and particularly within his own knowledge must be accepted, but it is not unparliamentary temperately to criticize statements made by a Member as being contrary to the facts; but no imputation of intentional falsehood is permissible.

On rare occasions this may result in the House having to accept two contradictory accounts of the same incident ." It is apparent that this is a dispute over the facts which , according to rulings of previous Manitoba Speakers, does not constitute the basis for a matter of privilege .

Beauchesne Citation 19(1) states that : " A dispute arising between two Members, as to the allegations of facts , does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege ." I, therefore, rule that the honourable member 's matter of privilege is out of order because he failed to establish a prima facie case as required by Beauchesn e Cita tion 84, and because the matter raised is a dispute over the facts . The Honourable Opposition House Leader . MR. G MERCIER: Madam Speaker , we would with respect challenge your ruling.

MADAM SPEAKER: The quest ion before the Hous e is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? All those in favor , say Aye . All thos e opposed , say Nay. In my opinion, the Ayes have it. The Honourable Opposition House Leade r. MR. G. MERCIER: Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members .

A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Ashton, Baker, Bucklaschuk, Cowan , Doer, Dolin , Evans, Harapiak (Swan River), Harapiak (The Pas), Harper, Hemphill, Lecuyer, Mackling, Maloway, Parasiu k, Pawley, Penner, Plohman , Santos , Schroeder , Sco tt , Smith (Ellice) , Smith (Osborne), Storie , Walding , Wasylycia-Leis . NAYS Brown, Carstairs , Cummi ngs, Downey, Driedger , Ducharme , Enns , Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Hammond, Johnston, Manness , McCrae , Mercier , Mitchelson , Oleson, Pankratz, Rocan, Roch. MR. CLERK: Yeas, 26; Nays, 20. MADAM SPEAKER: The mot ion is accordingly carried .

ORAL QUESTIONS RCMP investigation re MTX - status of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you , Madam Speaker , my question is for the Premier. I wonder if he can indicate what the current status is of the RCMP investigation into MTX affair. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I had occasion to check with Chief Superintendent Crerar , late last week and I am advised that the investigations have been complete and the inspector in charge is writing up the report. We expect to receive it before the end of this week.

RCMP investigation re MTX - access to Sheik Al Bassam's books MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Premier could indicate whether , in the course of their investigations into MTX's 3602

Monday, 6 July, 1987 affairs in Saudi Arabia, whether the RCMP had access to Sheik Al Bassam's books, his books of account of his companies that were related to MTX. HON. R. PENNER: As I said, I expect to receive that report before the end of this week. Indeed, I've asked the RCMP to try to prepare it with some urgency so that we make sure we have it before the end of the Session. We will not be able to know until I've actually received the report exactly what was covered. I have not, as a matter of policy, nor would I attempt to find out what the RCMP have done in detail with respect to this investigation.

I would expect it to be a thorough investigation as we've come to expect from the RCMP. MTX - criminal charges re RCMP investigation MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Premier could indicate whether or not he is anticipating any criminal charges will arise as a result of the RCMP investigation and report. MADAM SPEAKER: I would think that question is hypothetical. MR. G. FILMON: It's not hypothetical. I'm asking whether the Premier anticipates that criminal charges will be will be laid as a result of the investigation? HON. R. PENNER: I'll take it as anticipatory and not hypothetical.

Madam Speaker, the normal course is that when the report is received it goes immediately to the special investigative branch in the Crown Attorneys' Department, the one which looks at anything that is, or is analagous to, commercial fraud, and they would make the final decision. I have no way of knowing whether: (1) the RCMP is or is not recommending that, in their view, there is sufficient evidence; and beyond that I would have no way of knowing the evaluation that would be given of that report by our experts in the field. I will certainly leave it up to them in the first instance.

MTX - tabling of RCMP Report MR. G. FILMON: My question to the Premier is will he assure that the report is tabled as soon as it is received by the government? HON. R. PENNER: We can't give any gu arantee that it would be tabled as soon as received. If, in fact, there's a basis for suggesting that there may be criminal charges I would want the opinion of the special branch in charge of criminal fraud and corporate fraud to advise me whether or not there are parts of the report which ought not to be tabled.

If the suggestion is -and that's verified by the department -that there are no charges to be laid then, of course, the minute that's verified it would be tabled. MR. G. FILMON: Did the Attorney-General indicate that he anticipates he will have that report before the end of the Session? HON. R. PENNER: I anticipate I will have it before the end of this week. Foreign borrowings - what portion at risk MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, I direct my question to the First Minister.

Manitobans are not only becoming increasingly aware that this province owes a tremendous degree of debt, but they are also becoming aware that the debt we owe is not fixed, but indeed is at risk. For example, Madam Speaker, Series 3 K, borrowed during the Schr eyer term provided $3 1 million , Canadian, which had to be paid back last year at a cost of $66 million, not including any portion of interest. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. C. MANNESS: My question to the First Minister: What portion of all our debt is borrowed in foreign currencies and is, therefore, at risk?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Industry, Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I'll take the specifics of the question as notice, but point out to Members of the House that those fluctuations go on both sides of the fence. There have occasionally been loans, as an example, where including interest, we paid back, after a number of years, no more than we originally borrowed. Another example is on May 20, 19 87, the total fluctuation of our foreign debt was 1. 548 billion.

Today, July 6, the fluctuation is 1. 276 billion and includes an additional 30 billion Japanese yen borrowed in June. This represents a savings, if one wants to put it in those terms, during that period of time on our foreign debt portfolio of $272 million in a six-week period. So, Madam Speaker, the point is that it's not that simple to just look at one specific transaction, but rather to look at a series of transactions and to look at them over a period of years. Offshore borrowings - comparison to other provinces MR. C.

MANNESS: Madam Speaker, given the fact that the government cannot point to one loan, over the last number of years, that has paid a beneficial rate of return, given as to what would have been borrowed in the Canadian market, I ask the acting Minister of Finance, where we rank as a province, relative to the other provinces in Canada, as to what portion of our debt is borrowed offshore, Madam Speaker? Do we have the highest proportion of our borrowings borrowed outside of Canada? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: I'll take, again, the specifics of the question as notice, but clearly, there are other foreign debts that are fairly significant. Just, as a couple 3603

Monday, 6 July, 1987 of examples -and I'm taking this information out of the Free Press, I trust that it's accurate, I know there's some danger in that -but there's an indication that at a time when our debt fluctuated in the range of $12 0 million, B.C.'s foreign debt increased by $1. 2 billion, or at 10 times the rate; Alb erta's by 95 million; Saskatchewan's by 405 million; Ontario's by $1. 9 billion; Quebec's by 3. 7 billion; and so on. So it seems to me that it's very clear that we're not the only province with some foreign debt.

Clearly, the policy of the government has been, first to borrow in Canada, and where there is not a market available at the time, to borrow in the U.S. If there's not a market available at that time, then to borrow in other parts of the world. I believe it's the same policy, the same identical policy which has been in place and was in place under the previous government. It is a policy which, over the long term, we believe, will be appropriate for Manitoba, and I would point out that surely with such a strong Federal Government we hear so much about from that side, surely at some stage the Canadian dollar . . .

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, I take it by the Minister's lack of answer, that on a per capita basis, there is no province in this nation that has a higher proportion of its foreign debt borrowed offshore. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? Loan bill - percentage borrowed offshore MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, my question to the Acting Minister of Finance.

Given the fact that there will be a loan bill tabled any day in this House, calling upon legislators to grant authority to borrow yet another $1. 7 billion, thereabouts, Madam Speaker, can the acting Minister of Finance tell me what proportion of that 1. 7 billion will be borrowed outside of Canada and, therefore, borrowed again in a situation where our future taxes will be directed toward a major risk instrument of debt? HON. V. SCHROEDER: I'm advised by the Department of Finance, that the expectation is that the Canadian market will be available for roughly half of the borrowing for the current year.

That would be somewhat similar to the position that most provinces would be in for the year 1987. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, a final question, and I direct it to the First Minister. Madam Speaker, given that Manitobans can take no satisfaction from the musings of the Deputy Minister of Finance, who is reported in the paper to have said, and I quote: "I hope we do not lose our shirt in these borrowings." Will the First Minister of this province tell us when he's going to take Manitobans off this suicidal path of borrowing, Madam Speaker?

When is he going to remove us from this crap game of borrowing, where we have no understanding where we're going to be in the future as far as the debt associated with these foreign borrowings. HON. V. SCHROEDER: I can sympathize with the Finance critic for the Opposition who has no idea what is happening in this country and doesn't want to look around to see what is happening with other jurisdictions in North America. The fact of the matter is, Madam Speaker, we will not, as did the Lyon Government, get involved politically in making those determinations.

We have the staff, we have advisors from the outside who advise us as to where to go in terms of markets at a specific time, and we will continue on with that policy which, over a period of years, has stood us in good stead. The members opposite don't talk about the times the market turns the other way. As I said, a Swiss loan where there was no interest paid, we basically just paid back after a number of years, five or seven years, the same amount as we had borrowed in the first place. You never hear them talking about that.

You never hear them talking, in fact, about the substantial improvement in the market over the last six weeks from May 20 to July 6 where, if you look at short-term advantages, we have saved over $200 million if you want to put it in those short-term perspectives. The fact of the matter is there is not enough money available in Canada for all provincial and federal borrowings. That is why most provinces and the Federal Government occasionally go outside of this country to borrow money, and it would be great if we could borrow it all within -that is not possible at the current time.

Seven Oaks Youth Centre - appointment of task force MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Ye s, Madam Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Community Services. I was delighted to learn over the weekend of the Minister's appointment of a task force to study the possibility of closing the Seven Oaks Youth Centre. I'd like to ask the Minister: When will the task force be report ing and when is it anticipated tha t this inappropriate setting be closed? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Community Services. HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, the task force should be reporting how to implement the Reid-Sigurdson recommendation by fall. Seven Oaks Youth Centre - children no longer to be housed in centre MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Madam Speaker, a supplementary question to the same Minister. In that the Minister has now accepted that there are difficulties with that centre, will the Minister guar antee to the House that the young victims of emotional and sexual abuse will not be housed in that centre from this day forth? 3604

Monday, 6 July, 1987 HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, it would be folly of me to cut off a service before we had developed an alternative. That is the purpose of the task force, to recommend an orderly closing of Seven Oaks at the same time as they develop alternative resources, and that I think is the responsible way to deal with the issue. Seven Oaks Youth Centre - 10-year old at centre and sexual abuse not reported MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Ma dam Speak er, a final sup plementary to the same Minister. During the Estimates the Minister said that the centre was rarely used for those under the age of 12 .

Will the Minister explain why we had a 10 -year-old in that centre on the 21s t of June and why the sexual abuse of that youngster was not properly reported? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I stand by this statement, that the centre is rarely used for those under 12. It has been a closed facility in use when a child is � at danger of harming themselves or of harming someone ' else. My director of Child and Family Services has asked for a full report on the particular issue raised and the procedures followed. We will be looking into that report when it comes.

Winnipeg Beach - closure of RCMP detachment MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. On Saturday of this weekend, close to 400 people gathered at the Legion Hall in Winnipeg Beach to protest the closing of the Winnipeg Beach detachment as of September 10, as people across the province have already met in protest of the closing of the detachments in Deloraine and Reston.

Madam Speaker, my question to the Premier is, in view of the non-attendance of the � MLA for Gimli, the Minister responsible for Autopac, ' and the non-attendance of the Attorney-General at the meeting who were both invited, would the First Minister intervene in this matter and cancel the decision of the Attorney-General? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Sp eak er, I think the Attorney-General has explained in considerable detail to this Legislature the difficulties, yes, that are involved, but the rationale for the closure -not just in Winnipeg Beach but in Reston and Deloraine -and the rationale has not changed since that which was, I think in some detail, advanced by the Attorney-General some months ago. Winnipeg Beach - RCMP detachment - meeting with residents MR. G.

MERCIER: Well, Madam Speaker, the Attorney General promised consultation with the community before a decision was made, and he subsequently made that decision without any consultation with the community. Madam Speaker, I ask the Premier, in view of the fact that close to 400 residents who gathered on Saturday over concern on this issue, in representing some 25,0 00 to 30,000 seasonal residents of the community, would the First Minister meet with the group of citizens who were elected at that meeting to advance the concerns of the community over this closure?

Would he meet with that group of citizens that were elected on Saturday? HON. R. PENNER: Madam Speaker, first with respect to that last part of the question, I will certainly be glad to arrange such a meeting and if the Premier is available, I know he will attend. I just want to put that in context.

I wrote the mayor of Winnipeg Beach on June 10, again going over the ground with him, and I was advised by senior officials of the RCMP, including the assistant commissioner, that they had met with Mayor Sabeski and with some of his councillors and gone over detail by detail exactly what would be happening in terms of policing and had pointed out to him, and they had accepted that explanation that, if any thing, policing would be improved because of the consolidated unit which has to police around the clock, from Gimli, a few kilome tres down the road , which is now a subde tachment and that had been accepted mainly by the mayor; and I had asked the Assistant Commissioner to see whether he or one of his staff would be available for that meeting on July 4.

I was not -(lnterjection) Madam Speaker, I'm answering the question. MR. G. MERCIER: I rise on a point of order, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert on a point of order. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I suggest the Attorney-General is misleading this House. The mayor of the Town of Winnipeg Beach and the councillors concerned called a meeting on Saturday to protest the closing, and obviously have not accepted the revision in the policing that the Attorney-General has suggested.

When he stands up in the House and says that the mayor accepted the decision of the Attorney-General, he's misleading this House. MADAM SPEAKER: I do hope the honourable member is not accusing the Honourable Attorney-General of deliberately misleading. HON. R. PENNER: Did he say deliberately? To the point of order . . . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General, to the point of order. HON. R.

PENNER: To the point of order, I would like to table in this House a letter I wrote to the mayor on June 10, 1987, in which, and I quote from the last paragraph, and I'm tabling this letter: "I have been advised by the Assistant Commissioner of the RCMP 3605

Monday, 6 July, 1987 that both he and his staff have had lengthy meetings with yourself, and I believe other members of council, explaining in considerable detail how police service will be functioning when the changeover plan is complete. He was satisfied that the meeting addressed most of your concerns. If there are specific questions that have not yet been dealt with, and which you would like responded to prior to the meeting, please advise." The mayor did not reply to that letter, and I have every right to assume that, in fact . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. R.

PENNER: Madam Speaker, I'm addressing the point of order, namely that I have misled the House with respect to the position of the mayor of Winnipeg Beach. In fact, I have not. I am tabling, for the record, a letter I wrote to him on June 10 and to which he did not reply. I su bsequently acertained from the Assistant Commissioner of the RCMP, who is in charge of the RCMP in this province, of the details of that meeting with the mayor from Winnipeg Beach, and that he was personally satisified that the major concerns had been met. That was the information I had; that was the information I relied upon.

MADAM SPEAKER: It seems to me on the point of order that the matter is a dispute over the facts. Winnipeg Beach - statistics re crime MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I believe the Attorney-General has suggested that he would agree to meet with the group of citizens that were elected on Saturday. Would he also take into consideration the statistics which were brought forward at the meeting on Saturday, for example, in one of crime, break and enters have increased more than five times over the same period in 19 86? HON. R.

PENNER: I understand two things, Madam Speaker, from the RCMP themselves. One is that the statistic quoted was, in fact, just a part-year statistic that does not reflect the basic trend in break and enters in that area; and secondly, that if there has been any increase in break and enters, it was a period when there hasn't been, because that change hasn't gone into effect yet.

So that it's in the basis of the actual leasing arrangement which is on the ground, and if you want to draw conclusion from it, one draws a conclusion that the basic policing arrangement which is on the ground is unsatisfactory -and I assure the people in Winnipeg Beach and the summer residents of Winnipeg Beach that the new arrangement is better and you'll see that statistic go down. MR. G. FILMON: When the RCM P aren't there. HON. R. PENNER: -(Interjection)-The RCMP, Madam Speaker, are there. The Member for Tuxedo, from his seat, misunderstands. They are there.

They are there more often on the weekends than under the present arrangements. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Bean growers - tripartite agreement MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Farm Economy must maintain and expand its diversification to the speciality crops such as beans. Madam Speaker, this crop can be very successfully grown in Southern Manitoba with our climate and soil type.

Madam Speaker, bean growers have found good markets for beans around the world and about 15 ,000 acres are grown in Manitoba each year, and about $5 million is received at the farm gate for these beans. However, the problem the bean growers have is that the world market fluctuates wildly and the bean growers would like the Provincial Government to join a tripartite agreement involving the Federal Government and thems elves so that this fluctuating price can be stabilized.

I'd like to ask the Minister of Agriculture, Madam Speaker, if his government is prepared, on behalf of the bean growers of Manitoba, to negotiate a triparite agreement involving themselves, the Provincial Government and the Federal Government? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, the question of tripartite will be one that will be addressed and will be discussed, I am sure, at length at the Federal-Provincial Conference next week in Quebec City.

The honourable member should be aware -and I'm sure he is -that the question of support to the bean gr owers in this country has been by way of the Agricultural Stabilization Act,

an act passed by a former Leader of the Conservative Party, John Diefenbaker. Now the Mulroney Government wishes to move again, not only on sugar beets, but on beans and other commodities, away from 100 percent support at the national level to 66 percent at the provincial and producer level, only 33 percent of the national level. Madam Speaker, we will resist and continue to resist that kind of offloading, because it gets at the heart of what Canada is all about and the fairness or the unfairness in the treatment of the Federal Government in income matters, as it relates to the farmers in this country. MR. G.

FINDLAY: Madam Speaker, given that the Minister has accepted tripartite agreement by signing for hogs and for sugar beet producers of this province, I ask him again, will he do the same for the bean growers of this province, the same as he's done for hogs and sugar beets in this province. HON. B. URUSKI: No. 3606

Monday, 6 July, 1987 Bean growers - meeting with Minister MR. G. FINDLAY: Given that the Minister has already said that tripartite will be on the discussion table next week at the Agricultural Ministers' Conference, and the Bean Growers' Association of Manitoba has been unable to arrange a meeting with the Minister because he will not meet with them -they are very urgently wanting to meet with him before next week's meeting - I ask, Madam Speaker: Will he tell this House whether he's prepared to meet with the Bean Gr owers' Association this week to discuss their problem in this situation? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, first of all, the honourable member does not know what he's speaking about. Madam Speaker, I met with the Pulse Growers only a number of months ago.-(Interjection)-Pardon me? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Bean growers. HON. B. URUSKI: Well, Madam Speaker, the same group is represented by the pulse growers of this province. Those are the same group. My staff have met with them; I have met with them, Madam Speaker. I am not in a position to meet with them, in fact, at this present time, but certainly we have met before.

I have indicated to them that it is not my intention of, in fact, pursuing tripartite because of the very unfairness of the Federal Government offloading its expenditures. Madam Speaker, if we, in this province, were to provide services to our producers in terms of tripartite, it would cost Manitoba taxpayers probably five to ten times as much as it would cost Ontario taxpayers to su pport agriculture in that province. That's the unfairness of the situation.

Provinces who are less affluent will pay a larger proportion of the cost of supporting the producers, the same as we're doing in health care, the same as we're doing in education, and they're supporting that kind of offloading. Bean growers - lack of support in Manitoba MR. G. FINDLAY: A final supplementary.

Given that beans are grown in Ontario, Manitoba and Alberta, and Ontario has already signed such an agreement, Alberta is close to signing, leaving only Manitoba as the odd province out, if these growers in Manitoba are not sup ported in the same way as those other provinces are, Madam Speaker, is the Minister prepared to let the industry die in this province because of his lack of action? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, the honourable member, in his preface, indicated the industry was a growing and vibrant industry and was supp orted and should continue to be suppor ted by The Agricultural Stabilization Act of the Diefenbaker administration, that his Mulroney Conservatives are now sliding off and offloading their costs unto producers and taxpayers in this province. That's what he's supporting. We will resist that, Madam Speaker. Bees - mite infestation from the U.S.- control of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. Approximately 2,000 bees in the Province of Manitoba are infested by a mite. Apparently these bees have been imported from the United States. Could the Minister indicate what his plans are in respect to the affected farmers? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, this issue of the acarine mite has been around for a number of years.

I want to indicate that within the producing industry, there is a difference of opinion as to whether or not the borders should, in fact, be closed to the importation of stock, queen bees and bees, for production for those producers who do not overwinter their product. There has been the other position that, in fact, the border should be thrown wide open. The Federal Government does control the importation of bees. In fact, east of the Manitoba-Ontario border, there are no bees imported from the United States. There's been a total closure of the border.

We have tried to play a role to allow some bees to be imported from the United States, but clearly, as I understand the situation that has occurred this year, the bees that were imported were imported strictly for resale by one of our importers and that does pose a problem. Our staff are working with the industry to see what the outcome might be. At this point in time, there is no movement to close the borders for the future season. We are working with the industry. If that decision will be made, it will be made with consultation with the industry but it will be months before that decision is finalized.

Highway intersections - care after tree-planting programs MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources and is based on the question that I raised with the Min ister of Transportation approximately three weeks ago to do with the major intersections of PTH 's where this Min ister's department unde rtook a tree gr owing program a few years ago. Madam Speaker, every year I've had to raise the same question, when is there going to be maintenance done?

The weeds are four or five feet high, they're all in bloom, and there's no maintenance on this. It's the worst spectacle that I' ve seen in these places, municipalities have tight regulations for anybody that lets weeds go wild, and yet here we have this same old problem again, and I'm wondering if the Minister can indiciate when will there be maintenance done on this place? Is there going to be a maintenance program developed that will be in place so that we don't have to go through this every year in this House? 3607

Monday, 6 July, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Hig hways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, as I indicated to the House, there was an appropriation of dollars towards maintaining the trees that were planted under the Kids and Trees Program a couple of years ago. However, the department informs me that the trees were planted too close together and it wasn't possible to use machinery to get in between to do the proper maintenance.

They're going to have to be thinned out and the department is going to be working on getting that done after those that are there, that are going to be maintained, have had an opportunity to get started appropria tely. They'll be working on that, thinning them out and then they'll be upkept on a regular basis by the Department of High ways. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, to the same Minister of Transportation then.

Is the Minister indicating that the present situation will exist until his staff have had a chance to go out there and see how they're going to prune or thin out these trees, that the weed situation will remain there all summer until they've made up their mind what they're going to do with it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, Madam Speaker, I don't expect that it will be too much longer until action has been taken. The department has reported on that situation to me, has indicated that they will be thinning them and then providing a regular maintenance program for those trees.

Gimli Fish Hatchery - closure of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources. Can the Minister indicate whether the fish hatchery at Gimli has been closed, and if so, why? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I am not aware that the fish hatchery has been closed, but I'll take that as notice and check with the fisheries branch. Fish hatcheries - status of MR. A. DRIEDGER: A final supplemen tary, Madam Speaker, to the same Minister.

Could the Minister indicate how many fish hatcheries are in operation in this province, how many have closed, so that we have an update as to what's happening with the fish hatcheries? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I will provide the specific information, but I would want members of the House to know that in terms of our stocking program, we've had one of the most successful stocking seasons in the province's history, but I will bring the specific information. MACC - Interest Rate Buy-Down Program - no. of farmers and allocation of money MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture regarding the Interest Rate Buy-down Program of MACC. The deadline was the end of June, I wonder if he can now advise the House how many farmers have taken advantage of the program and how much of the money has been allocated from the original $29 million. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I will ask MACC to provide me those details and I will bring it to the House. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, I'm sure if the program had been successful, the Minister would have had a statement in the House already. MADAM SPEAKER: Question? Ste. Rose ring dike - construction of MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Government Services. During the last Session, I received several assurances from the Minister responsible for Natural Resources regarding the expeditious completion of the ring dike at Ste. Rose.

Then I received, in February, a letter from the Minister responsible for Government Services, that the inquiry as to necessity will be held in April or May and anticipate the report of the officer will be available during May. Now we see that we have an appointment of an inquiry officer and he was appointed on June 16, which is when he was first approached. Madam Speaker, I would like the Minister to tell this House why their delay? Is this their way of punishing people who don't vote NOP? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, we are simply following the process in terms of the acquisition of the property which allows for those who have objections to the project to voice their concerns. We are doing nothing more than provide for the opportunity to express their concerns. When they've had the opportunity to express those concerns and the property is in their hands, the Department of Natural Resources will proceed with the construction of the ring dikes. 3608

Monday, 6 July, 1987 Ste. Rose ring dike - appointment of inquiry officer MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, my question is still to the Minister of Government Services. Why is it that they waited until June 16 to appoint an inquiry officer? Why has it taken two years to bring results to this community that was assured that they would receive ring dike protection? We are rapidly reaching the end of the window of opportunity to construct this installation. Will he explain who was responsible for taking so long to appoint the inquiry officer, and will he intercede with that officer and tell him not to drag on?

As he says, it is now going to be July, people are going to be on vacation, and then the farmers will be in the field. He says I don't know when the inquiry will be held. Will he intercede? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minis ter of Government Services. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, in order to proceed with it, we had to make sure all the legal technicalities were in place. Once they were in place, then the officer was appointed. The only reason we are proceeding with it is to give the democratic process an opportunity to work and let the people have an opportunity to be heard.

Roadside maintenance - policy of government MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, obviously there is something going on behind the scenes or the Minister would give me a more direct answer. I have a question for the Minister of Hig hways: What is the policy of the Department of Hig hways this year regarding roadside maintenance and mowing? The condition of many of the provincial roads is deplorable and I would like him to explain. Has this been the result of cutback in his government expenditures or a change of policy?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Hig hways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I can table, for the member, the standards that have been in place for a number of years that are still in place with regard to mowing. There hasn't been -(Interjection)-It varies. The Member for Gladstone doesn't realize that you mow less on a secondary road than you would on a major PTH and we have different standards for different kinds of roads.

Those standards are being adhered to and met, as well as, Madam Speaker, the chemical requirements for weed control that are utilized, the same as they have been in the past. We have to look at that from time to time to see whether those standards should be changed but they have not been changed at this point in time. If there are individual roads that have particular problems that the member wants to raise with me and that we can have the department pay immediate attention to, I would welcome him bringing those forward.

Consolidated Professor Mines - discussion of development of with Ontario MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Madam Speaker , Consolida ted Professor Mines Ltd. has been given exploration permits for treatment of mineshaft water and for de-watering of mine shafts on Stevens Island in Shoal Lake. My question to the Minister of Environment is, firstly, has the Minister discussed this potential development with the Provincial Minister in Ontario? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G.

LECUYER: Madam Speaker, I know that there are ongoing discussions between staff on the status of the operations currently going on in that area. Consolidated Professor Mines - monitoring of by Manitoba MR. J. ERNST: Madam Speaker, can the Minister advise the House if the Manitoba Department of the Environment is in fact monitoring this development, appreciating it's in Ontario but has a major impact on Manitobans and particularly the water supply of the City of Winnipeg? HON. G. LECUYER: We're just as concerned as any member on the other side of the quality of water for Winnipeg.

As I have stated before, Madam Speaker, during my Estimates, we have been informed, upon inquiring with the Minister of Ontario, that they have no applications for any development at this point in time. If there are, we will be given intervening status in hearings that would have to take place on this particular issue if and when an application is received. MR. J. ERNST: Madam Speaker, the Minister has advised they've had no applications. This company has two permits, Madam Speaker, to do work on that site. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question?

A ME MBER: How did they get permits without applications? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Consolidated Professor Mines - environmental damage by oil spill MR. J. ERNST: Over the winter, Madam Speaker, there were two oil spills on this site as a result of the operations of Consolidated Professor Mines. Has the Minister had a report as to the extent of the environmental damage that occurred as a result of those two oil spills? HON. G. LECUYER: Madam Speaker, the member fails or doesn't want to understand what I'm saying. There is no application for operation at this time. 3609

Monday, 6 July, 1987 Madam Speaker, yes, there indeed are permits for exploratory work. Those have indeed, on an off-and on basis, taken place I believe since 19 54, Madam Speaker. Now as far as the actual reference the member makes to an oil spill, I did have some information on that and I believe I did provide some information on that in regard to a specific question during my Estimates. I can take that as notice and report further to the member. Civil Servants - 2 percent net-income tax reduction in June MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

A question to the Acting Minister of Finance. We all know that the NOP Government is very short of funds these days. But can the government explain why civil servants had a 2 percent net-income tax deduction for the last seven days of June on the cheque they received on July 3? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Industry, Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'll take that question as notice. Casinos - completion of study MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J.

ERNST: Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation. Some time ago, the department undertook a study on casinos. I wonder if the Minister can advise if in fact the study has been completed and what action the government contemplates since the study has been completed. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Culture and Heritage Resources. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The study has not been completed, but when it has, we'll be looking at the options and I'll be reporting in due course. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, I have some committee changes. On Municipal Affairs: Ducharme for Pankratz; and Ernst for Driedger. On the Committee of Public Utilities and Natural Resources: Derkach for Filmon; and Manness for Orchard. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: I move, seconded by the Member for Ellice, that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: M. Dolin for the Hon. M. Smith.

I move, seconded by the Member for Ellice, that the composition of the Standing Committee on Agriculture be amended as follows, Hon. L. Evans for the Hon. V. Schroeder; the Hon. Judy Wasylycia-Leis for the Hon. John Bucklaschuk. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speak er, it is my understanding that there is an inclination on the part of all members to forego Private Members' Hour, by leave. MADAM SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agr eed) HON. J.

COWAN: I move, Madam Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Madam Speaker, I would like to speak on a matter of grievance. Madam Speaker, as you well know, on this side of the House we have expressed our deep concern about the Department of Commu nity Services and its leadership.

We feel that in spite of the fact that we have expressed our concerns time and time again, that the Minister does not really understand the problems which the workers in Community Services are faced with.

My researcher and I have gone to a great deal of work documenting some actual cases where children have been apprehended, where lack of training by social workers has become well exemplified through these cases, and I would like to just read some of these cases into the record, Madam Speaker, in order that this Min ister may un ders tand that she has problems throughout the entire department; and if she is going to start restructuring this particular department, she will have to start from the bottom up and start a training program. The persons who used to work so effectively within this system are there no more.

The Minister has changed 3610

Monday, 6 July, 1987 the entire system; she has politicized the entire system and this, Madam Speak er, is really where our problems arise, because she has nobody in the department at the present time who seems to be capable of organizing th is department in a way that they can function efficiently.

With your permission, Madam Speaker, I would just like to give you one case over here, and there's a number of these cases that have happened to Native families, but this is the evidence of a Native father of eight children as presented at a court hearing in March 1987; and I quote, "It was on the 10th day of October that the children went to school. They were supp osed to come home from school by 3:30 but nobody showed up. I thought that the bus had broken down or something like that. We waited until four o'clock, and then I asked to call the school.

She phoned the secretary and told her that our four children had been apprehended by the Children's Aid Society. I phoned Child and Family Services and asked the child worker why they had been picked up. She told us that they were coming to pick up our other three children and, when asked why they were apprehended, she said that they needed protection from us, but didn't say why. "We were scared. I phoned a cab to take the three young children to our friend's place. We went to our friend's place but they were drinking and so we got back into the cab and came straight home.

A worker came with the police and I wouldn't open the door. We were scared and the kids were crying because the police were kicking at the door and yelling at us. They circled the house. They returned every day for the next three days. We covered all the windows. "On Thanksgiving Day we were starting to prepare a Thanksgiving sup per. We finished everything and had a nice Thanksgiving supper with the three children and one friend. While we were watching television, a cousin knocked on the door. We fed him and he joined us to watch television. There was a knock at the door, and without thinking, I opened the door.

Three cops shoved me flat against the wall behind the door and, with two social workers, they entered to look for the kids who were fast asleep in bed; they woke up the kids. My wife took our youngest boy of one month old, and held him close; she was breastfeeding him at the time. The social worker pulled him away from her. The third child was visiting with a neighbour and they kept asking where the third child was, but I said, I don't want to tell you. They finally left at 9:00 p.m. "Nobody knows how much it hurts inside to have this happen to you. I didn't know what to do; it was awful.

I was frustrated and angry and I only had one child left; we felt very down. We picked up our last daughter that night. That same night, four more people returned. We closed the curtains and wouldn't answer the door. We held our daughter tightly. "For days and days and days we hardly slept or ate from worry. We knew they would never quit. We felt that we were being hunted like animals. Every single day they returned. We were hiding our one and last child at all of our friends' houses. We were tired.

"Finally on November 4, the social worker called to say that we had no choice and must take our child to Child and Family Services. We sat and talked about what we could do; we only had one child left. It was 361 1 so hard. I had no choice, so I took Melissa down to the main office. Now there was only the two of us, it was so lonely. Every night we both cried because the house was quiet, empty and lonely. Andrea joined adult evening classes with me" -Andrea is his wife -"so that she'd have something else on her mind. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to me in my life.

"From here we went and asked the counsellor," and I can't read the next part, "to help us get our children back. The counsellor and people there talked to us and helped us a lot by telling us not to think that the situation was hopeless. They counselled us not to harm ourselves, but to wait and see what happened. On January 13, we went to court and were given eight trial dates for March. They have split up all our children; they are in five different places. We don't even know where some of the foster parent homes are. We have visiting rights for two hours a week every Friday.

We go to a counsellor anytime and if we want to talk to someone, every Thursday we go to a group meeting to talk with other parents who've had their children taken away. We talk about how we feel. We feel as if they've taken away our lives." Madam Speaker, this is one incident of the actions that are going on within Community Services, and later on I'll explain to you and this House what some of the other jursidictions are doing in other provinces. We are only doing police action and that's really the only action that Community Services is performing.

After quite a bit of enquiry, we were able to get some social workers to give us some other examples and, Madam Speaker, I'd like to read some of the examples now cited by some of the social workers who are working within Community Services. Originally this family came down from the North, because one of the children needed medical treatment for a heart defect which would have required a long separation of the family if the child was left for treatment. The mother of this family was constantly abused by her husband and they separated and the mother had custody of the children. That was about four years ago.

Now the family has a new husband and father, this new unsoph isticated couple whose eight children were apprehended on October 1986. The disposition of the case was made in March 1987, when the children were made temporary wards. From the father's evidence, one would be tempted to conclude that the harassment of the parents could have been prevented if good case work practice had been in motion prior to the situational problems arising which precipitated apprehension. Although these parents are not without blemish, the treatment and punitive attitude did not endear them to the child placing agency.

The agency did not clearly outline its expectations of this couple until the court ordered the following conditions: (1) that the parents attend violence counselling with evolved program in the City of Winnipeg; (2) that they attend parenting classes; (3) that they attend marriage counselling on their own, and on their own they have been attending an upgrading school program. These parents have been prepared to make changes in this situation, attending programs faithfully and punctually -walked across the city to the respective courses in order to have their family reunited.

Monday, 6 July, 1987 There have been three agencies involved with this family which has been somewhat overwhelming for them. Last fall, this family came to me for help. I contacted the child placing agency worker to determine how best she thought I could help these parents. In conversation, I was not given the reason for the children's admission into care. The presenting problems other than the concerns of the community, which were not spelled out, was all the information I had on which to focus my treatment plan.

Because the mother and the father who thought the concerns were around the school authorities, I contacted each teacher, who were all surprised at my enquiries as the children were well-clothed and fed and their school attendance satisfactory. Upon checking with the previous landlord, he had no complaint regarding this fami ly. Because I realized that not only were the Child and Family Services involved and another agency, I did not feel it was necessary to triplicate the service. Not until the spring did I saw this couple again, when I was asked to counsel these parents.

Recently this mother gave birth to a child and although I have not been advised from the Child Family Services worker, it is my understanding that this child was apprehended in the hospital and allowed to remain with the mother in the home. Two days ago, I learned that the plan for these children is permanent wardship, the application to be made September 9, 1987. Madam Speaker, in this case, the parents obviously are trying everything that they can possibly do in order to get their family back.

I think that should be the main thrust of Child and Family Services that, if it is possible, if the parents have shown a real desire in which to have their children back, then it should be Child and Family Services, we should give them all the assistance that they can. The father of this particular case who had caused the problem had been removed four years ago. There was another father now who is very concerned. From every indication that they could find, this couple would be making excellent parents with some counselling.

Case No. 2, March 20, 19 87, two siblings, a boy aged five years and a girl aged three years were placed in a foster home after being apprehended when found alone in a local hotel. The parents couldn't be located. This is the foster mother's first time caring for foster children. The foster parents have two children of their own aged nine and one year. The foster mother observed that the girl had somewhat unusual behaviour in regard to her personal parts, spreading her legs and vagina. The foster mother began to observe that the child was in pain when urinating.

After a few weeks when the children became more relaxed and verbal, they described how their father had put his finger in her vagina. The girl also had many nicks over her ears where the father had put his finger nails and pushed. Bleeding from the vagina was also observed and the foster mother phoned the social worker to discuss her findings. The social worker didn't seem to respond to the mother's concerns and no instructions were given to the foster mother. The foster mother phoned Klinic and described the situation and was told that the symptoms were consistent with child molesta tion.

Sh e was advised to go to the child protection centre. The family's own doctor had been unable to examine the child as she had been too tense. Klinic made an appointment for her to go to the Child Protection Centre and both children were examined. The boy was found to have anal scarring and the girl had a venereal disease called chlamydia and is on antibiotics. The little boy's teeth are like little matchsticks and the foster mother is concerned. There were no instructions about taking the children to a dentist, so the foster parents have taken it upon themselves to see that the children have dental care also.

They have also entered the little boy in a nursery school. Now No. 1, these foster parents were not informed or supp orted in their first venture as foster parents. No. 2, these foster parents were put into a very vulnerable position of being possibly suspected of child abuse, because the children were not examined upon apprehension. No. 3, the worker has only showed up since their placement to take the children for their visits to their parents - a taxi service if you like. There has never been any inquiries about the children.

No. 4, the parents have never been advised regarding pending court hearings to know how long the children could be in their care. This case points out that there are sloppy investigation practices where children should have been examined when apprehended. Also, nearly non-existent support or follow-up after the children have been placed in care, placing both the children and the foster parents at risk.

Then this one social worker said that she quite liked Grant Reid and Eric Sig urdson's summa ry and recommendations as outlined in their final report, relating to the system dealing with child abuse in Winnipeg, and particularly their recommendations number 8, 15, 16 , 21, 22, 23, 34, 35, 38, 39, 43, 44, 45, 47 and 51. On these matters, I should like to comment that: No. 1.

The Minister of Community Services would be well advised to have members of her staff, leaders as they are known in Ontario, to inspect child and family services annually, to examine all files for the purpose of measuring quality of recording; that is content, focus, treatment plan, goal and whether regulations under the act are being followed. No. 2. Nowhere in the act have I found a regulation dealing with medical and dental examinations.

I am of the opinion that such a regulation should read: Every child in care of an agency, shall be given a medical and dental examination as soon as it is practical after the admission of the child to care, and thereafter shall be given a medical and dental examination at least once a year. A report of each examination shall be recorded and any treatment recommended in a report to be carried out within times recommended. No. 3. I have first-hand knowledge that children have been placed in foster homes long before a home study has been completed.

During free time I was asked by an agency to help out during a backlog, only to find that child has been in a foster home a year prior to the study being completed. This is scandalous, appalling and dangerous. This could be avoided if the act read: Within 30 days after receiving an application to board or adopt a child, the agency shall begin an investigation of the applicant and the home of the applicant. In the case of adoption, reassess the adoptive home, and before the placement 3612

Monday, 6 July, 1987 of a child, if the assessment of the home has not been made within six months, the agency shall reassess the foster home at least once a year during placement. No. 4. I have found that there is a lack of communication between organizations, little follow-up, reporting of the up-to-date present situation of a family. I am working with one set of parents, whose children are in the care of an agency, and am unable to determine what the plan has been for these children.

There is a dire need for dialogue between professionals according to the predetermined standards of confidentiality -for the purpose of enhancing the quality of service to the client. No. 5. There is a dup lication of services within the City of Winnipeg. I am aware of parents who have workers involved in their cases by three different agencies. This can be extremely overwhelming to the clients. No. 6. The act does not provide for treatment of child abusers. I cannot be certain why this is the case . . . perhaps neither mandated nor available funds, lack of trained staff. No. 7.

There are far too many adjournments ordered by the Courts. My experience has been that each adjournment weakens a case. In one instance I am aware of children having been taken into care in October, 19 86 and not until March, 19 87 was the case disposed of. The matter of adjournments, to my mind, needs active consideration. No. 8. I do not have statistics but it would seem there are far too many apprehensions taking place in Manitoba. Good casework and social work practices, keeping on top of the case via frequent and regular home and office visits, may be a way of preventing this situation.

Apprehensions only prompt emergency placements, and sometimes poor placements, not suitable to a child's needs, because of the nature of the emergency. Emergencies can be prevented. No. 9. I do believe that the act should clearly regulate standards around the frequency of visits by social workers to foster homes. I am able to cite two or three cases where children had been placed in homes where neither they nor the foster parents were visited for at least two months after placement. Contact was usually made by telephone. This can be considered as a very sloppy and dangerous practice.

In order to discourage this, could the act not regulate the following? -and I quote: "Every child placed in a foster home or other home shall be visited by a social worker within seven days after the child's admission to the home and within 30 days after the initial visit." No. 10. I cannot be convinced that the figures presented to the public by agencies regarding caseload counts are accurate. We are told that such an agency has such a number of open cases, but it could be questioned whether these cases are actually active. Figur es such as these can be misleading.

It will follow that if cases are not closed when service is no longer reque sted or required, workload statistics will naturally increase. The above will clearly indicate the need for the Minister to investigate agency records on an annual basis. Agencies want to consider setting policy whereby cases are to be closed after three months of the last direct contact with the client. No. 11 . There is a lack of follow-up by agency workers to clients whose children have been apprehended and eventually returned home. One family has not had a visit from agency workers since that time.

These people need follow-up support and encouragement to maintain their socio-economic functions. I see this lack placing parents and children in very vulnerable positions. No. 12 . I do not see the Register as being a bad thing if the registered person has been convicted of physically or emotionally ill-treating a child. It is especially helpful to agencies when offenders move out of the province." Madam Speaker, these are some of the concerns which this social worker, and a number of social workers have complained about. There is a lack of training. There is no doubt about that. There is a lack of coordination.

One agency doesn't know what the other agency is doing. Even within agencies, one social worker doesn't know what the other social worker is doing and when a case is handed in to them, then it seems as if there is nobody who is being able to report on that particular case and the social worker has to go to great lengths and spend a lot of time getting herself familiar with the case when all that information ought to be available somewhere along the line.

So, we're spending so much time needlessly within this department running around, dup licating things which already have been done, but for which the information is not available. These are some of the concerns, Madam Speaker, that are coming forward; and that is why we have social workers who are hopelessly overworked because of the amount of duplication and not being able to effectively close case loads. And it's just a real lack of coordination that is making it very difficult for the entire department, child caring agencies to operate.

The recommendations that I listed over there, that have been recommended in the Reid-Sigurdson Report are recommendation No. 8; that the Min ister of Community of Services and Child and Family Service agencies jointly undertake annual workload studies in all Child and Family Service agencies. This is very important, that all Child and Family Service agencies should have an annual workload study. Recommendation No. 15, that Child and Family Services agencies, formally licence every home for children in care.

It is further recommended that foster homes and extended family homes undergo identical assessment procedures for the purpose of licensing. It is further recommended that social workers place children only in homes which have been formally licensed by a Child and Family Services agency. No. 16 , that all Child and Family Service agencies provide regular consultative support to foster parents.

No. 21, that parties to the tripartite agreement proceed on an urgent basis to resolve those fiscal and jur isdictional issues which pertain to provision of services to Native children and directly affect their safety; that effective multidisciplinary consultations on difficult children and family service cases be improved by the creation of a child abuse committee for each agency. It is further recommende d that gui deli nes be developed that clearly define the role, function, and operating procedures for each regional committee; and it is further recommended that each Child and Family 3613

Monday, 6 July, 1987 Services agency provide the consultative committees with adequate staff support. No. 23, that the Attorney-General review the current practice of scheduling child protection hearings in the unified family court to reduce the down time of social workers. No. 34, that the Government of Manitoba act to affirm the desirability of community-based Child and Family Services delivery system.

No. 35, that the Minister of Community Services act to ensure that the responsibilities and activities of the Child and Family Services agencies and the Department of Community Services are allocated in such a manner as to minimize duplication of activity and to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the Child and Family Services system.

No. 38, that the Child and Family Services agency be globally funded; and it is further recommended that there be an annual contract negotiated between Child and Family Services agencies and the Government of Manitoba that defines a level of funding, the scope of the service and all other conditions that are important to the operat ion of this syste m. It is further recommended that the Minister of Community Services convene a meeting with the boards of directors of the Child and Family Services agencies to discuss the implications of global budgeting and to agree upon means to pursue these ideas.

No. 39, that all Child and Family Service agencies establish appeal committees to allow for a thorough review of service complaint. It is further recommended that the Department of Community Services establish a three-person appeal panel to resolve these matters which are not satisfactorily resolved by the appeal commmittees of the board of directors. No. 43, that the Child and Family Support Branch replace all directives and guidelines with comprehensive service standards which shall be negotiated with the Child and Family Service agencies and all agencies shall be accountable to such standards.

No. 45, that up-to-date job descriptions be in place for all staff within the Child and Family Suppo rt Branch by September 1, 1987. It is further recommended that the Child and Family Support Branch, in conjunction with the six Child and Family Services agencies, devel op one set of comprehensive procedural standards that updates the 1978 standards package and incorporates all related guidelines and directives issued since that date. No. 47, that only convicted or admitted child abusers be recorded in the Child Abuse Regis try.

It is further recommended that employing authorities consult the Child Abuse Registry for all current or potential emplo yees whose resp onsibil ity require the care, ins truction or control of children un der nor mal circumstances, such as persons should not be permitted to hold these jobs. No. 51, the final recommendation that she is recommending, that in the event of a death of (

a) a child in care, (

b) a child who has been a client of a Child and Family Services agency during the last two years. A child whose parent or guardian has been a client of a Child and Family Services agency during the last two years, the Chief Medical Examiner, in addition to the inquiry required by The Fatalities Inqu iry Act shall review the activities of the Child and Family Services agency or agencies which were involved with the case and submit a detailed report to the Minister of Community Services, which assesses whether or not the activities of the staff of agency or agencies were appropriate by current standards.

Madam Speaker, it is really appalling that the Reid Sigurdson Report had to come up with 55 strong recommendations. It just shows how negligent the entire Department of Communit y Services has been in delivering the type of service that they're supp osed to. I would just like to come back to Native services for a little while and I would like to speak briefly on the Child and Welfare League of America who have their home in Washington, D.C., and I would strongly advise the Minister to get a membership in this particular league.

This agency is 67 years old and they have a very large American membership list and quite a number of private Canadian members and two public members. The Canadian examples are the Alberta Department of Social Services, the Catholic Social Services, the City of Calgary, Glengary Day Care Centre; in Ontario, the Delcrest Children's Centre; in Quebec, the Children's Aid Society, Youth Horizons, Strawbridge Youth Centre; in Saskatchewan, the Department of Social Services.

In Alberta and Saskatchewan, they already have availed themselves and they have memberships in the Child and Welfare League of America and we are far behind in Manitoba in regard to what Saskatchewan and Alberta are contemplating as services to the Native community.

The membership services of the division of the agency provides (1) consultations on child and welfare services, a review of existing services and recommendations for improvement; (2) they· do the training of workers in child care on governing boards and on helping Native agencies organize themselves, and so on; (3) the journals are publis hed on child welfare and also standards for care; (4) there is a public policy division which reviews legislation; (5) there is also a lobby group which appeals for increased funding for various agencies within the child and welfare system.

For example, more money to help with child adoptions. Madam Speaker, we should take every effort to join this group as quickly as possible. Some of the provinces, Alberta for instance, they feel so strongly about this that they are qui te willing to do all the fundin g thems elves if necessary. If they cannot reach an agreement with the Federal Government to cost-share in this, they are quite prepared to go it alone. That is how seriously Alberta considers the need for a well organized Native child placement centre.

So, I hope, Madam Speaker, that the Minister is going to pay attention to this, that she's going to investigate the possibilities of joining this particular organization. Another area in which we are following far behind is in therapeutic services. We are doing next to no counselling with child abusers who are receiving this service. Now at one time, Madam Speaker, in 1981 for instance, 64.8 percent of child abusers were receiving agency therapeutic services, but now by 1986 which is the last statistics, only 30.9 percent of child abusers are receiving these services.

I guess it's astonishing to know that evidence which is being placed forward in child abuse cases, that there has been so much inconclusive evidence risen, that in 19 81, 13.3 percent 3614

Monday, 6 July, 1987 were inconclusive evidence and to date there are 29.8 percent of reported cases by 1986. So. this just tells you that there is a need for us to have an appeal system whereby a person can get their names removed when they are falesly accused in a registry. When we have almost one-third of the cases reported in Manitoba cannot be proven that there was child abuse, and, Madam Speaker, it is extremely important that we get this particular

section under control as quickly as possible, and we're looking forward to the Minister's bill which hopefully -and we haven't seen the bill -that's why I'm saying hopefully -is going to alleviate some of the concerns that we have regarding the registry. There is a numb er of other concerns, Ma dam Speaker, and I know that my time is running short and I'll have to move along rather quickly, but there's a number of other concerns that I have regarding this particular department.

I must say that probably one of the major concerns that I have is that nothing has happened as a result of the death of Mitch Gowler, who met his death while he was taking a mentally retarded autistic person out for a walk along the Red River. It was known to some of the case workers that this man had a very distinct effect when he walked close to water and that he was very difficult to control, as autistic people usually are.

They have one particular item, whether it's water or whether it's something else, will absolutely throw them into a frenzy and this is what must have happened in that particular case, only nobody, again, was informed about this or else I'm sure that Mitch Gowler would never ever have taken him alone for a walk along the riverbank. But what I am concerned about is that this person who had been released from the Manitoba Developmental Centre is still in that same particular group home that he was in at that particular time.

The only problem at the present time is now that, after this death, nobody dares take him out for a walk. He is kept inside all the time under constant care and I do believe, Madam Speaker, that it would be ever so much better if this person was placed back at the Manitoba Development al Centre where you do have the � app ropriate staff to look after persons such as this and ' where he could be let out so he could enjoy the outdoors. I see that my time is up, Madam Speaker. Is it up? I have three more minutes. Okay.

I would just like to say once more, Madam Speaker, that what we are experiencing in this par ticular Department of Community Services is an absolute lack of leadership; the leadership just isn't there. This has been exemplified by all the reports which have been coming out in the last while. Each one of them has been so highly critical of the Minister and of that particular department.

We would like to see, Madam Speaker, that the Minister would take a look at the entire system within her particular realm and that she has to start building from the ground up, that there is no such thing that she can ignor e some of the problems which have been exemplified by some of the caseloads that I have brought forward. Thank you.

QUE STION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Departments of Northern Affairs and Executive Council; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Departments of Government Services, Legislation, Flood Control and Emergency Expenditures, Emergency Interest Rate Relief, and Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote. CONC UR RENT COM MITTEES OF SU PPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNME NT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C.

Baker: The item before us is the Minister's Salary: Government Services. Resolution No. 76: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2, 198,200 for Government Services, Administration, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1988- pass. SUPPLY - LEGIS LATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: We are now discussing No. 4., Other Assembly Expenditures. The Honourable Minister. HON. J.

COWAN: I think the resolutions are numbered in the order in which they appear, starting consecutively with number 1, but that order does not correspond to the order as it shows up in the Estimates because the first three are statutory. However, as far as I'm concerned, if the Opposition Ho use Leader agrees, any item can be open for discussion and then we can just pass the resolutions at the end of the general discussions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I have no questions on page 4 so we can proceed with the . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, page 5.

There is no resolution to be passed on page 4. HON. J. COWAN: Page 5? MR. CHA IRMAN: Page 5. Other Assembly Expenditures. Are there any questions? 4. Other Assembly Expenditures, (

a) Leader of the Official Opposition Party-pass. MR. G. MERCIER: Is there a resolution you have to pass? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. No discussions at all? MR. G. MERCIER: Not on item 4. or 5. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, so I'll read the Resolution No. 4, then -at least, Resolution No. 1 which covers No. 4: Resolution No. 1: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,886,700 for Legislation, Other Assembly Expenditures for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1988- pass. 3615

Monday, 6 July, 1987 Resolution No. 2: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,470,400 for Legislation, Provincial Auditor's Office, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1988 -pass. Resolution No. 3, Ombudsman, Item No. 6, Salaries -The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I would like to ask for some sort of breakdown as to the increase in expenditures for the Omb udsman, and the new activities of the Omb udsman that involve the additional expenditures. HON. J. COWAN: Under that item there is . . . did the Member for Morris not receive his customary . . .

There is an item of 20,400 which is for one SY. There is an item of 17 ,500 which is for the general salary increase, 9,000 is provision for merit allowances, and 15 ,700 is due to several positions being reclassified during the '86-87 fiscal year, and the full year costs for '87-88 fiscal year. MR. G. MERCIER: Are there new activities that the Ombuds man is involved in -the reason for the increase? HON. J.

COWAN: No, I think if I recollect the situation correctly, it's not that there are new activities, but the level of ongoing activities was such in the past, that it was felt that there would be a requirement for additional staff if the Ombudsman was to report on the matters under consideration in a more timely fashion. So that staff increase and the different increases there, are designed basically to provide for a quicker response to issues which are referred to the Ombudsman. MR. G.

MERCIER: Has the Government House Leader given any consideration to developing a procedure whereby the Ombudsman would report to a committee of the House? This is a procedure that is undertaken in some other provinces, where the Ombudsman, on an annual basis, reports to a committee of the Legislature. We don't have that in Manitoba. I think there's some merit in giving it consideration because there's really no vehicle through which the Ombudsman reports. As my colleague, the Member for Morris points out, the Auditor reports each year, I guess, through Public Accounts Committee.

It would seem to me that it would be good for both members of the Legislature and the Ombudsman, to have an opportunity to report to a committee of the Legislature. HON. J. COW AN: I have to admit that I'm not familiar with the specific practices in other jurisdictions in this regard, so I would not be capable of responding defi nit ively to the sugges tion. However, the Omb udsm an's Office really comes under the responsibility, in large part, of the Legislative Assembly Management Committee, and that might be a place where this suggestion could be further discussed.

I wouldn't want to presume to indicate what the outcome of those discussions would be at this particular time, but it is a matter that could be brought to the attention of the Comm ission in discussions held ther e and perhaps a report forthcoming from those discussions would be made available in the future. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I think the reporting of the Ombudsman to the other committee is more with respect to budgeting. Perhaps we could handle it this way.

I wonder if the Government House Leader could give an undertaking to the committee to review the practices in other provinces because what I'm talking about is not a private meeting with the Omb udsman, but a public meeting with the Ombudsman to review his activities on an annual basis. HON. J. COWAN: I think what would be an appropria te first step would be to determine what happens in other provinces on a province-by-province basis and make that report available.

If, from the review of that report, it's felt that we should take a look at our own procedures here, we could do so within that context and then leave those decisions until we had that information available to us. But certainly I'd be prepared to make an undertaking to that extent at this time and would sugge st we can probably have the report ready in - let's give ourselves at least a month or a couple of months to circulate it to the Opposition House Leader, and perhaps he and I can enter into discussions following that. MR. G. MERCIER: Fine, pass. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 3: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5 1 6,000 for Legislation, Ombudsman, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1988- pass. The next Resolution No. 4, Elections Manitoba, (

a) Salaries -the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Is there any money in the provision for expenditures for this fiscal year which would include the beginning of the election boundaries review in the work at the Commission? HON. J. COWAN: No, it's my understanding that there are not. MR. G. MERCIER: Will the work be starting in this fiscal year? HON. J. COWAN: It was to be commencing in this fiscal year. I'm led to be understood that the funding comes out of the general consolidated revenues out of the Treasury, so it's a statutory requirement. MR. G. MERCIER: When will the report be completed? HON. J.

COWAN: There is a legislative requirement that the report be completed in 1988. I'm told that the earliest would be sometime in the summer months and that the latest, of course, would be at the end of the year, but probably some time, at the latest, in November. That would probably be the latest it would come forward. If the House is not in Session at that time, the report would be tabled at the next sitting of the Legislative Assembly. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the report not made public when it is completed? HON. J. COWAN: Yes. 3616

Monday, 6 July, 1987 MR. G. MERCIER: What are the anticipated expenditures to carry out the work of the commission? HON. J. COWAN: We don't have the exact details in front of us, so if I can, I would like to be able to forward that information to the Opposition House Leader in the near future. It shouldn't be too difficult to put together a projection based on the cost of the previous exercise. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I want to gain a better understanding of the mechanics at work in a time basis.

The report is to be offered to the Legislature by 1988, given that we're not in Session then some time in 1989? HON. J. COWAN: If the Legislature is not in Session at the time when the report is completed, it would be forthwith in the upcoming next Session, whenever that might be. MR. C. MANNESS: What follows and what flows from that point? Is it encompassed in a bill? Does it have to receive the granting of authority by the Legislature? HON. J. COWAN: Yes, it would be incorporated into a normal piece of legislation and followed through the Legislature in the normal process. MR. C.

MANNESS: Given that that becomes law, does it come into effect immediately upon receiving royal proclamation or is there some waiting period written into the ... HON. J. COW AN: There are currently changes being contemplated in legislation before the House at present, so there is the circumstance as it now stands and there is the circumstance that may stand after that bill has been completed and implemented. As it now stands, it would come into effect on the dissolution of the House.

The amendment which is before the Legislature right now would have the effect of it coming into effect six months, not previous to, six months following the proclamation of the act. MR. C. MANNESS: So, conceivably then, if this became law, the report was ratified by the Legislature and it took effect June 30, let's say, and I'm within the realm of speculation here, the new boundries then would not come into effect until 19 90, in January? HON. J. COWAN: That would be correct. MR. C. MANNESS: And furthermore, if the government then called an election in the fall of '89, it would be fought under the old boundaries?

HON. J. COWAN: That is correct. I just want to note as well that that was the recommendation of the report which we received earlier, based on experiences that we've had; so it's following that general recommendation of the Chief Electoral Officer. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Chief Electoral Officer geared up for an election? HON. J. COWAN: He indi cates that they are always ready. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I know this is covered by resolution. I would like to beg the indulgence of the committee to ask one question dealing with the Auditor, and it's more a request.

So before you pass this final resolution and pass off . . . HON. J. COWAN: No difficulty. We've agreed that we can address all of the issues overall. MR. C. MANNESS: I requested of the Minister of Finance when we were in Public Accounts that the Government House Leader and ther efore the government give some consideration to holding Public Accounts Committee before the sitting formally of the next Session. Furthermore, that to bring the information that is released by way of the Auditor's report and put into a more timely fashion for discussion purposes that Public Accounts be called in a more expeditious manner.

I would dare say in the month of January, if it would be acceptable to a majority of people on the committee, the Minister of Finance indicated that through my House Leader I should bring it up to the Government House Leader. I guess I'm, Mr. Chairman, requesting on the record. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I said I would bring it up with . . . MR. C. MANNESS: Oh, the Minister of Finance said he'd ... HON. E. KOST YRA: I said I would talk to him about it. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, I guess, Mr.

Chairman, I'm doing it directly with the Minister of Finance, not that the Minister of Finance always forgets his promises to me, but I think it's important that it be on the record. Hopefully, the Government House Leader will see fit to contact our House Leader early in the new year and make provision for the sitting of that committee. HON. J.

COWAN: I can indicate that not only did the Minister of Finance to draw that suggestion to my attention, but for a number of years now, I think, or at least for some time, the Opposition House Leader and I have had dis cussions where he has been promoting a similar suggestion and it is something that we will take into consideration as we try to work towards the next Session.

I can't at this time make a commitment to having those intersessional meetings, but I can indicate that it has been brought to my attention and it is something that will be given full consideration as we try to work towards the opening of the next Session. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 4: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $281 ,000 for Legislation, Elections Manitoba, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1988 -pass. 3617

Monday, 6 July, 1987 That concludes the

section un der Legisla tion. (lnterjection)- HON. J. COWAN: The Emergency Interest Rate Relief is Billie. MR. CHAIRMAN: We can wait for a moment or two. HON. J. COWAN: Do you want to do Flood? Can we do that? MR. CHAIRMAN: Who's taking Flood? HON. J. COW AN: No, Harry's taking that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. HON. J. COWAN: Is there any problem switching over? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreed? That we do the Flood Control Emergency Expenditure now? (Agreed) SUPPLY - FLOOD CONT ROL AND EME RGENCY EXPENDITURES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: Page 14 3. Any opening statement, Mr. Minister?

No opening statement, the Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, I just have some concerns that I want to raise with the Minister. I'm referring to the Town of Emerson which is in the process of having diking done on the south side. The Town of Emerson has been one of the last ones where the diking arrangements are being completed to some degree and part of the reason for the delay has been that it involved the Americans so there was international involvement and until everybody got their act together it took quite some time.

In raising the question with the Minister of Natural Resources, he indicated that the project could be slated to start pretty soon. MR. CHAIRMAN: A little bit qu ieter, please. The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER : So I have no difficu lty.

Unfortunately, it's taken a lot longer, but I think it's very necessary, you know, that southern portion there, that the project gets under way as soon as possible because, you know, if we run into another flood situation, and the Red River Valley is always prone to that, now that it is committed everything is go on that, I would hope to encourage this Minister, together with his colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, to make sure .that it moves ahead.

However;that is not the problem that I want to raise with the Minister, and I'm sure that he will be having discussions with his counterpart, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is involved in this. The Town of Emerson, there is a proposal for the diking on the west side. The town council, the mayor, Mr. Sadler, and his council, they have requested that the diking take place along the railway track which would encompass approximately 40 acres which they want for development purposes, because once anything is outside of the diking area, you can't get a permit and there is a lot of difficulty with that.

I raised it with the Minister of Natural Resources, and because there's federal money involved, the Minister indicated that they are prepared to cost-share, providing that the feds would get involved in this as well. I have been trying to make contact, you know, through Jake Epp's department to see whether we can get that process moved along a little faster.

I want to bring that up here and ask this Minister specifically, since he's the Minister responsible, you know, as well as the Minister of Natural Resources, whether he will take a personal interest in making sure that the contact and the right lines of communication get opened up forthwith, because I think there was a deadline of something like June 30 in terms of which time an agreement had to be reached. I believe, if there's a desire both at the federal and provincial level, we can extend that deadline. The extra cost for including that portion that the town would like to have included is $70,000.00.

So we're looking at, if the feds would cost share, it's $35,000 for the province and $35,000 for the Federal Government. To the community, it is very important, and to the council. Because they have been delayed so many times already in their project, I want to draw this to the Minister's attention and ask whether he will personally try and get things moving on that basis and to see whether it's possible to maybe get that extension moved up so that they will not lose the opportunity to have that diking done on the west side as well.

I don't know whether the Minister is acquainted with the situation to any degree at all. If not, I hope that he will make himself acquainted with it and that we can maybe get that situation about the diking around the Town of Emerson resolved once and for all. Many of the others communities have had their diking upgraded and updated, and here we still have that void in the Town of Emerson, basically, like I said before, because of the international agreement that took a long time to formulate, but now, on that west side, it's vitally important to them that they have that additional land enclosed for development.

Other than that, they're strapped for space. You know, these communities, there is limited space where further development can take place. I'm just wondering if the Mi nister could maybe comment on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I have had no direct involvement with this situation at Emerson, but I will raise it with the Minister of Government Services. It appears to be a reasonable request.

If the Federal Government is willing to work out the extension and the Minister of Natural Resources has indicated willingness on the part of the province, then it seems like a reasonable request to include that. I'll be raising that with him and I will get involved directly and see what can be done. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that. I want to ask the Minister whether either himself or the Minister of Natural Resources or the Department 3618

Monday, 6 July, 1987 of Water Resources, whether somebody will take the ini tia tive to make the contact with the Federal Government. I think the mayor, Mr. Sadler, was a little confused as to, you know, where do we make the approach, because, you know, when we talk of two levels of government, and I think that possibly the Minister himself and his colleague could probably expedite things much more rapidly if they would get involved and take a keen interest in it. If the Minister indicates that he is prepared .to do that, I find that acceptable. I want to just make one final comment.

If it would be possible for either this Minister or the Minister of Natural Resources to maybe get in touch with Mr. Sam Sadler, who is the mayor of Emerson, and indicate what the position is and maybe help expedite the things and clear up some of the confusion out there. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Okay, I would think the qu ickest lines of communication would be to work directly with your federal counterpart, but if those communications have not borne any fruit, then we will certainly ask the Minister of Natural Resources to make the contact with the mayor and ask him to see how we can bring this to some completion. MR.

A. DRIEDGER: Yes, please. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: May I ask just how long we intend to continue the Estim ates on the Flood Contro l Emergency so we can ask the Minister of Agriculture to be ready. At what time do you think he should be here? MR. A. DRIEDGER: He should be here right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Would somebody go and get the Minister of Agriculture, please? We're prepared to move the motion, are we then? The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, I ask the Minister in charge whether or not there's been any constituents of mine and other members, who are located in the Red River Valley, who have seen their ring dikes beginning to fall, for whatever reason, whether they have made representation to the government, more directly the Department of Natural Resources, in support of some government aid in stabilizing dikes that seem to be dropping for one reason or another?

In a few cases I am aware of, because of the manner in which they are erected -rather improperly, I might add -is the government aware of any of these claims that have been brought forward against it? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, we are aware of them and we have written to the Federal Government to see if they're willing to participate in rebuilding the dikes at the level they should have been built to in the first place. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, that's most acceptable, that response.

Is the Minister now talking about the dikes specifically around the communities and/or individual dikes around 3619 farmsteads that at one time qualified under the old program to have some level of funding provided for that reason? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I'm speaking about the individual dikes that are surrounding private property, and we have not had a response from the Federal Government at this time. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm most encouraged in hearing that response.

I also ask the Minister: Given the fact that when we pass Interim Supply, there's always a reference in that area to the authority under this particular area, Flood Control and Emergency Expenditures -and yet I'm also aware that there are some outstanding accounts that last well over the year, particularly as between a municipality and the Provincial Government, that have arisen because of claims brought forward by those municipalities -has the accounts payable process improved at all? Because, quite frankly, over the last three years, it's been dismal.

I brought this up last year, and again, I question the Minister why there's such a delay in the paying of these accounts? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I should indicate to the member that the first request going to the Federal Government was for participation in a study to see what work is required. There wasn't participation to do any work at this time, so I thought I'd mention that because of your encouragement . . . MR. C. MANNESS: You didn't say study the first time. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I regret that I did not. If I did not say study, it was a mistake. I will take that second part of your question as notice.

We have to get back to you because I don't have the information with me at this time. MR. C. MANNESS: A final question then. Who sits on the Disaster Board at this particular point in time? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We have three members. The chairperson is St. Hilaire -Willis and Regehr -the three members of the Disaster Board. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, based on the comments that were made by the Member for Morris and the Minister, I was also very encouraged when it sounded like the Minister had written to the Federal Government to ask for participation on that but it's only a study now.

I think the Minister might remember that a lot of money was actually left on the table last time when the program terminated and a lot of people did not, for various reasons, weather being one, a lack of equipment being another, that they could not complete their projects. When the Minister is moving in this direction, is he prepared to accept addition, not just repairing the present dikes, but accepting the additional new applications for diking in the Red River Valley because many places did not get diked because the program terminated and there was no extention of it?

Monday, 6 July, 1987 The Minister is starting negotiations -that was my impression that he was - I would hope that he would include not just the existing dikes but also, you know, the expansion of the program to include those who didn't qualify or didn't make it last time. HON. H. HAAAPIAK: As the member knows, there was federal participation in the program, so before I could make a commitment of that sort there would have to be discussions with the Federal Government before we could be making a commitment. MA. A.

DAIEDGEA: To the Minister then, would he consider in his negotiations on the study part of it, will he also include the possibility of coming forward with a further program, maybe repairing dikes as well as allowing new diking to take place? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: In that study they would be looking at all the shortcomings of the existing dike system. So, if there's willing ness on the Federal Government to participate in a study, then they would probably be willing to participate then in repairing the shortcomings in existing dikes. That could be part of the discussion. MA. A.

DAIEDGEA: I just want to indicate to the Minister that that program was a good program. The benefits were just fantastic and I want to encourage him that maybe instead of this government's normal approach about fed bashing, maybe we could have a bit of a love-in for a change and try and work out something that is beneficial to everybody. HON. H. HAAAPIAK: If we thought that a love-in would work to bring more federal dollars into this province, then we would be willing to participate in a love-in, but it hasn't been very fruitful up to this point, but we are always willing to start some new discussions. MA. A.

DAIEDGEA: Just a final comment, Mr. Chairman, you know you can win more things with honey very often than by using a big heavy bat and this government, whenever they have a little problem, they blame the feds. Maybe in this case, this Minister, I think he's a relatively likeable chap from time to time, maybe he could use his charm in the negotiations instead of jumping on them all the time. Thank you. MA. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 142: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 million for Flood Control Emergency Expenditures for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 1988- pass.

SU PPLY - EMER GENCY INTEREST RATE RELIEF MA. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: The next item is the Emergency Interest Rate Relief. No opening statement, Mr. Minister? The Member for Morris. MA. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm amazed to see that this appropriation is growing. To the best of my knowledge, the program which came into being roughly four years ago had a term, that covering two or three years, as to the number of new entrants into the program.

To the best of my knowledge that door is now closed, that window is now closed, and indeed there should be no increased requirements under appropriation for funding in support of that program. Can either Minister explain why there's a greater requirement called upon the taxpayer to provide in support of a program that came into being a number of years ago? MA. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the appropriation that is required here provides for the funding commitments and there are nonpayments and there are in terms of collections and in this whole area, that's the appropriation that we have here, where there are failures either in small business or in the farming community, and the member knows how many failures there are in the farm community, this would in fact provide for the largest component in the area of funding. MA. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister's answer provides no information whatsoever. It's a typical answer. The point being, Mr.

Chairman: Can the Minister gi ve us a breakdown as between the thr ee sub programs and, more importantly, again, can he tell us whether or not additional aid, interest rate relief, is being provided to new entrants? I'm well aware, Mr. Chairman, that the Provincial Auditor is writing off a lot of the losses and obviously those do not require appropriation. Those are simply a bookkeeping entry. They are a bookkeeping entry; the write-offs do not come forward here. So why is there an additional cash requirement needed at this time? HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I will have to get my notes in this whole area and provide it for my honourable friend; but it does provide, although the write-offs are written off, the program, in terms of collections and the commitment, and doubtful accounts, you still require an up-front current commitment to those accounts. MA. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, then what the Minister is telling us is under the three sub-programs, the reason he's coming here is not only in support of the civil servant time required to keep a scrutiny on the programs, but also he's requesting of us a write off component.

I guess then the question that I would put to the Minister is: Why are the write-offs increasing in value? HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there is also the forgiveness portion that is requi red under the terms of the contract because a portion of the Interest Rate Relief Program was a loan component and a grant forgiveness portion. As the time expires for the grant portion to come into play, you will require more money to cover off the forgiveness portion of the Interest Rate Relief Program. If the member recalls, half of the program was cash up front forgiveness, half was a loan. 3620

Monday, 6 July, 1987 There is a provision for the forgiveness portion and for the loan portion and, of course, for the dou btful accounts. So you will have, in the last year of the program -this should be, unle ss the doubtful accounts in crease, this will be the last year. In fact the appropriation amount should be dropping in future years. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, it probably would help the committee if we had those details associated with the program. But it seems to my memory that indeed the forgiveness part was consumed in the appropriation in the year in which the program came forward.

I didn't realize it was amortized over some period of time. As a matter of fact, I still think I may be correct. The Minister says I'm wrong and he said that this may represent the last year in which some portion of the forgiveness part of the particular program will need to come forward in this fashion. Can he tell me what portion of the 1. 445 million is forgiveness and what

part is an allowance for doubtful accounts? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I will, in terms of the agricultural component, I will provide that information. I don't have that information with me, in terms of the breakdown of the accounts, of actually what the 1. 445, as it relates to agriculture. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, there's another Minister in charge of two of the programs and I see she has a piece of paper in front of her. No doubt she has all that detail associated with the Department of Housing and also of Small Business. So I pose the same question to her. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I have some information just on its way to me, I think, about the housing element, the housing component. But it was completed as of March last year . I'm just confirming whether or not there's any exp enditur e in this appropriation. I don't believe there is but I have that confirmation coming in. I'll just give a little bit of information about the numbers of busi nesses and the ratio. We had 601 small business firms that received the financial and the counselling assistance.

Counselling was required, it was an integral part of the program. Close to 300 firms received in-depth counselling. The information that I have sug gests that we believe that the program was beneficial, not just because of the low interest help that it gave at a very difficult time, but because of the counselling component that was required, actually helped a number of businesses that might otherwise have gone under. The value of the assistance, 4,887 ,312 , of which one half or 2,443,656 was repayable. The firms assisted, employed in excess of 2,000 employees and had sales of 86 million.

A lot of it went to the manufacturing sector, which I think is important because that's a sector we're all concerned about right now. 601 busi nesses, 127 in manufacturing, 8 wholesalers, 19 8 retail, 254 service and 14 tourism. 63 percent of them were from the rural and northern area, and 37 percent from 3621 Winnipeg. I know the members are interested in all of this detail. We transferred the loan portfolio to the Manitoba Development Corporation for administration, as of January, 1985, where the collection is being done by MDC. The cost in this estimate relates to loan collection fees and write-off.

But we haven't yet been able to completely determine what those will be, because we're continuing to collect or expect money if at all possible. We have written off in'85, 168,000, and in '86, 18 7,000. But the amount for this year is not totally determined because there are still some that are uncertain, and we're not sure whether we'll be able to collect on them or not. We'll looking at, if you want the ballpark, we're looking at the range of 89,000 for this year, but we may not require all of that. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has just given me a vintage Minister of Small Business presently answer -she's given me a great number of statistics. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Well, you love statistics, that's why I gave it to you. MR. C. MANNESS: Yes, but I like them to address the question. The Minister may have come close in her last paragraph. Is she saying that the 89,000 and the other figures that she provided for years previous, really is one of the factors that go into make up the appropriation? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, can the Minister tell me when the Small Business Interest Rate Program will be wound down completely, so it will not be calling on any portion of the appropriation under this item? HON. M. HEMPHILL: It's nearly wound down now. In my belief is it will be wound down this year. MR. C. MANNESS: So what the Minister seems to be saying that the two areas under her responsibility are almost totally completed. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, then it's the Minister of Agriculture, I suppose, that we are waiting for and we can't help but note that he skipped out, but we'll wait for him. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: You're not allowed to note that, are you? MR. C. MANNESS: Oh, probably not, I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I'm not allowed to say that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to adjourn for awhile until he comes back? MR. C. MANNESS: I'm wondering if this Minister can tell me what portion of the Loan Program indeed was

Monday, 6 July, 1987 repaid and what part was written off, because it's important for future reference . . . HON. M. HEMPHILL: Well, half was grant and half was repayable. You're wanting to know what was repaid out of the 2.5 million that was sup posed to be repaid, the half of the total program.

I guess we can figur e that out by taking the 16 8,000 and 10 7,000 plus the possible 89,000, which I wouldn't like to be assumed is a firm figure, because we're still hoping to collect some of tha t money, but you'd be looking at approximately -that's in a range of $350,000 out of the 2.5 million, but that's probably the worst scenario. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Yes, we'd like to stop the clock, Mr. Chairman, unless we can, by agreement of the committee, move into the Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote section. MR. CHAIRMAN: Then come back to this one? MR. G.

MERCIER: Then come back. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you want to wait a minute or two just in case the Minister does come back? MR. G. MERCIER: If it doesn't count. MR. CHAIRMAN: I can adjourn for a few minutes. Do you want to adjourn the committee until Billie comes back? Is it the wish of the committee to adjourn until he comes back? I don't know how the recorder could do that. Can you handle that? -(Interjection)-No problem, okay. SU PPLY - CANA DA-MANITOBA ENA BLING VOTE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: So we move into the Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote. Who is the Minister in charge of this one, the Minister of Finance? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Just a couple of comments. This Enabling Vote was initiated first in the fiscal year 197 4- 75, as a control mechanism to facilitate the management and cash flow with regard to funds associated with federal-provincial cost-shared agreements. This year's vote shows, on page 140 on the detailed Estimates of Expenditures, an estimated amount $7,8 11 ,700.00. This amount represents an estimated $296, 100 or 4 percent increase from the 19 86-87 Enabling Vote of $7,5 15, 000.00. Maybe I'll conclude my opening comments.

This vote equivalents only 20 percent of the total projected expenditures for all agreements except the Economic Development Planning Agre ement, 26( 1) (h). The remai ning 80 percent is identified in the printed Expenditure Estimates of departments affected by the seven agreements listed in the appropriations. In the case of the Economic Development Planning Agreement, the Enabling Vote contains 80 percent of the total projected expenditures and the remaining 20 percent is included in the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology Estimates.

The amounts identified in Recoverable from Canada do not represent total revenues, but are proportional to the estimated expenditures included in the Enabling Vote for an agreement. The balance of the estimated revenues are reflected in the Estimates of the affected departments. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any questions? The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: All the federal -provincial agreements, are they all covered in some fashion under this vote, or are there agreements in existence that are not covered at all within this item? HON. E. KO STYRA: I beli eve there are other agreements, from memory, that are not.

These are all the Economic Development agreements that come under the ERDA package. There are other agreements that come to mind. There are agreements signed, I know, with Secretary of State regarding translation costs. That's not part of this. That would be directly capped, of course, under Employment Services and Community Services, to name two. These have always followed, as I understand it, the Economic envelope of agreements. MR. C.

MANNESS: So all the Economic agreements as between working towards joint projects, federally and provincially, are covered within this area, and all the spending that flows therein follows under, or is this simply the adminis tration portion? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, again, as I pointed out, all areas, except for Item (h), these are only 20 percent of the expenditures. The 80 percent is covered within the respective departments.

Each department has 80 percent of the expenditures related to the agreements, and only in the case of the Economic Development Planning Agreement is it actually the reverse -20 percent of that one is in the department and this figure here represents 80 percent. l\l!R. C. MANNESS: Well, is there a statutory obligation to present it in this fashion, or who makes the arbitrary decision, 20 vs. 80? I don't understand, I guess, the reason then for considering it here, plus, in some cases, in the departments. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: As I understand, it was set up, as I indicated in my opening remarks - I didn't know the year but it was in my backgrounds -in the fiscal year '74-75 as a control mechanism to facilitate the management of cash flow funds associated with the federal-provincial cost-shared agreements. What it is is that the departments deal with the expenditures flowing out of their agreements until such time as they reach the 80 percent level. At that time, if there is a need for additional expenditures, then they make requests of the Minister of Finance to flow the other 20 percent from the Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote.

I don't know the history to it. I guess it was set 3622

Monday, 6 July, 1987 up as a way of controlling overall the flow of funds from the federal-provincial agreements. MR. C. MANNESS: Moving through the series, Mr. Chairman, the first is the Agri-Food Agreement. Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us how many years are remaining on the present agreement and whether or not there are any plans, any conceptualizing taking place in the department to work toward a new agreement? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we're basically in our second year of the agreement and there would be no discussions at this point in time on a new agreement. N

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-2-83a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 2nd hansardpdf 83a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1865a606f97e8127b446703c2caa51792daf1071

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