LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 21 May, 1985. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CULTURE, HERITAGE AND RECREATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: Committee, please come to order. We are still on Item No. 2.(b)

(1) Grants Administration: Salaries; 2.(b)

(2) Other Expenditur es; 2.(b)

(3) Grant Assistance - the Member for Wolseley. MS. M. PHILLIPS: I'd just like to take this oppor tunity to commend the Minis ter for putting out one HE Rizons issue on cultural events and programs. I would like to take strong exception for the support from the Minis ter. I'd like to take a strong exception to the comments made this afternoon by the Member for Elmwood where he suggested that everyone was running for cover.

I'd like to go on the record as saying that I totally support the efforts of HERizons magazine and any assistance that the Government of Manitoba can give to such a worthwhile publication that Is known throughout the country for its very high standard. I really resent and object to any suggestion of comparison to any of the sleazy violent pornographic kind of magazines the Member for Elmwood was talking about.

When a publication has a subscription of at least 7,000 regular subscribers, plus many many other indi viduals who reg ul arly buy copies from the newsstand, 1 think it's a vehicle that women have in this province of expressing their opinion on many many Issues, such as emp loyment and training on day care, on pensions, on music and culture, on social assistance, on health Issues, and considering there are so few vehicles for women to express their opinion, that they shoul . d be supp orted In their efforts.

I'd like to suggest that if the Member for Elmwood is so ins ecure that the Catholic Church and the 49 percent of the population In Manitoba who are male, the 90 percent of the population in Manitoba who are heteros exual, can't stand a little bit of social comment from a fledgling women's magazine, that they're in serious trouble, and I would suggest that the Mem ber for Elmwood falls In that particular category. 1 would like to commend, again, the Minister for any support that he gives this very dynamic and worthwhile magazine in coming from the Province of Manitoba and being supported by both men and women from across Canada and held in very high regard by men and women from across Canada, much to the contrary to the very narrow-minded opinion, in my humble opinion, of the Member for Elmwood.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No comment on a person who is not present. The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, maybe the Minister wants to respond to that comment. MS. M. PHILLIPS: I'm entitled to an opinion. MR. C. MANNESS: Sure you are. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask only two or three questions that would be supplemental to those questions posed by the Member for El mwood with respect to the support offered to the publications Midcontinental and HERi zons in question.

I'm not going to enter into a debate as to whether the Province of Manitoba should fund these particular periodicals In magazines in their production stage. My greater concern is the fact that they have been endorsed and brought Into the public school system by way of a grant program. I accept wholeheartedly the Minis ter's description of what took place and the fact that within the periodical

section maybe somebody within his department erred and put to print something that wasn't quite true. However, my broader question is, when this program was conceived and then developed, to what degree was the Minister of Education consid ered and brought into the whole plan to bring forward these periodicals into the public school system? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I think that question should be directly asked of the Minis ter of Education.

I can say in terms of the developing of a publishing policy for the Province of Manitoba, the specific report that gave rise to this program, a report that suggested that there be such a purchase program - the report didn't specify which specific pub lications would be or would not be included under the program - but recommended a program such as this. There was endorsation of that program, that concept, by the Department of Education and by the Minister of Education. lt then formalized Itself Into the federal-prov incial agreement In terms of a specific program.

The details of the specific public ations were not referred to by the Minis ter of Education, nor was there any agreement on which specific publ ications ought to be Included in the program. The broad program was discussed in a policy sense over a period of a year­ and-a-half, maybe two years. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister seems to indicate then that in a broad conceptual form, that the Minister of Education gave her endorsement to a program that would support local periodicals and books.

The Mini ster of Education has pointed out on numerous occasions that, in fact, her department did not peruse the material, particularly the periodical material that found its way into schools and I believe the Minister tias indicated that again today. I'm wondering to what degree Minis tries within the government, and particularly the Minis try of Culture, feels it has the right to direct material into the public school system? Or does it go to the Min ister of Education in all respects and in all areas? Does it always request of the Minis ter of Education a clear indication 2146

Tuesday, 21 May, 1985 of her support before it attempts to bring forward any material into the public school system? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm not aware of any other program or situation that it would be an issue. We do not provide any form of direct program support to the school system, other than this one specific program, but I'll just check that in a moment.

From the other area, there is delivery into the school system, not through the department, but through the Manitoba Arts Council with their Artists in the Schools Program, which is run by the Manitoba Arts Council through school divisions, where they provide grant support for artists who perform and run instructional workshops in the school system for periods of time. This program was a unique program in terms of being an Industry-based program to assist in furthe r development of cultural industries in the province, particularly book publishing and periodicals.

And there was consultation, as I said, on the policy which was agreed to be a desirable one in terms of getting more Manito ba-based books and periodicals in the schools, but the specifics of the periodical program were not formalized with the schools. Again, the department was not putting materials in the schools - I know the member would argue the distinction. There was a provision of a grant to a maximum of $300 for the periodicals that they purchase from a list. Unfortunately, that list implied that they were approved and, in essence, recommended for the schools; that was incorrect.

They were not being placed in the schools by the department, we provide financial assistance, if they so choose to pick and they can pick any from that list, or none from that list, provided that the maximum didn't exceed $300 per school. MR. c. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, let me state for the record that many of those book titles, particularly, that were listed there, you know, would represent very good reading and something that should find its way into the public school system and into the libraries. I have no quarrel with many of those book titles that came forward.

My greater concern though is this whole system. Firstly, who can approach the public school system; what other ministries of government can approach the public school system? And to what degree the Minister of Education has the responsibility of screening that material, not only the broad policy concept of what should come forward, but furthermore, what her responsibiliti es are with respect to allowing information that may not be in the best interests of students. Now I'll pursue that, of course, within Education and I'm not asking the Mi nister for her comment.

But I've heard from various people, again within the public school system, who have said now that there is some broad range of ethnic culture material that's beginning to find its way into the public school system also.

I guess they're asking the question, is it coming directly from the Mi nistry of Culture without any endorsation by the Min ister of Education or, indeed, is she being asked, on every occasion, that this material can find its way, because they're having to make decisions. lt's easy for the government, or any of its Ministers, to say to school principals or superintendents or, indeed, school libraries, it's up to them to screen all the material that comes forward and to pass judgment on it as to whether or not it should be in place within the school library.

And I think it's incumbent and it is a responsibility of the Minister of Education to set down some broad guidelines, and I'm wondering whether the Minister of Culture has free access to the public system and can introduce almost anything under his purview in the area of not only reading material or printed material that is produced locally, but even beyond that, a lot of the material that is developed by the various ethnic groups. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm not aware of any other program where we provide any information to the school system directly, other than what's provided on their choice under this program.

There has been, in the past, some co-operative efforts with Education, but they were clearly an education-based program run by Education where we've provided some assistance to them. But I'm not aware of any other situation where we provide material directly to the school system, unless it was a specific request from a school di vision to us for information. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, I'll have to - and I will have a more definitive question for the Minis ter of Education - but it has come to my attention that there has been some very sophisticated material that's come out, I think, under the auspices of the East Indian community, that's come into the schools. Now I don't know if it has come through the Arts Council or whether it's come in through the Department of Education, or whether it's come through the Department of Culture, but people are asking. I don't think it came from the Department of Education, because it seems that it's come from an outside group.

I use this only as one example. I'm wondering what

part in the whole advent of things that the Ministry of Culture has to play in approaching the school di visions th roughout this province in attempting to use that forum to see this material used within a broader context. My concern is that people within the public school system are being inundated, to some respects, or are having difficulty in deciding whether or not there is a proper place within the public school system for this variance of material. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm not aware of any other situation.

If the member does have some detail, if he wants to either provide me with it now or subsequent, I will investigate. I'm not aware of any activity of the department directed to the school division, outside of that which we've discussed, and the one I made mention of in my opening remarks, which was the anthropology search which was a joint program of the Department of Education, the Department of Culture and the federal Secretary of State for multiculturalism, a three-way program that is looking for material in the anthropology area.

That's the only other area I'm aware of so, if he has any detail or wants to give it to me subsequent, I'll try to find out it's source. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I won't belabour the point, I'll just ascertain in a little more detail, a 2147 I

Tue•day, 21 May, 1985 particular example I have in mind and I'll probably bring it forward in Education Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to express some concerns this evening. Before I ask some specific questions, I notice in looking through the Minister's Estimates that we've got about $9.5 million to $10 million that are really being spent on things such as Culture, Regional Services, Historic Resources.

The balance of the estimates is really Queen's Printer, Translation Services and other things which are under the Minister's jurisdiction but don't deal directly with the cultural component as I think most of us would see it being. One of the things I guess that's causing everybody more and more concern all the time is when you receive a packet of the grants that have been awarded - there's one packet alone from Lotteries. We're looking at 800 different grants being awarded. We got the other little sheets of paper that the Minister gave us, another 100.

We're looking at, just In this small department, over 1, 000 grants to di fferent organ izat ions being administered. I think there is a growing concern among the public of where this whole grant thing is going to lead us. I don't fault the Minister for it because it's been a number of governments, whether they be Liberal, Conservative, or NDP, have sort of got into this grant malaise and we're all caught up in it.

This afternoon, the Minister made an announcement on granting $1 million to a company and he expressed some frustration at the time that he was competing with other jurisdictions within the country that were doing the same thing. I think it would be remiss of me not to make some com ment about it because, while I know it's a tremendous problem politically for any government to deal with it, each successive government, regardless of political stripe, seems to be getting deeper and deeper into it.

You know, as a Member of the Legislature, when a cultural organization comes to me, there are about seven or eight different places that you apply for right now. lt's wild, and the organization that has the person who is the best trained to deal with the organizations Is the one who gets the money, whether it be through the Careerstart Program to get a couple of people to work on your group, whether it be through the Arts Council, and then you do another run and you go into the Recreation Facilities Program. it's at a point where I guess I've said this before but a lot of members, I think on both sides of the House, nobody is really doing anything unless they phone you and ask you if a grant is available.

I dare say that I bet you about half the calls that I get now, nobody will replace a window unless they know if there is a grant available. This area is one which I would say that has grown in the last 10 to 15 years to an extent that none of us ever dreamed it would. I want to tell the member, that having been Minister of the department for a short while, I know the dilemma he faces. I don't know if anybody's ever going to have the political resolve to deal with the issue, but we're in this all together and there doesn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel.

We're just going deeper and deeper into the shaft and I don't know where it's going to end. lt has two problems with it: No. 1, is the difficulty then that we go through in dealing with Lotteries. There Is an appetite out there which I suggest to the Min ister that were we left up to the constraints of departmental or general revenue we would have to deal with.

But we are now Into a time and a period where Lotteries revenues are expanding at such a fast rate and we're all anxious to conjure up political favourites, favourites with all the different groups out there, that we are using that lottery slush fund to try and meet some of the unsatiable demands that are out there. What we see happening is that we see groups formed who come In with their presidents, and maybe an executive secretary, or the executive administrator, and come and ask the Mi nister or the government or the Arts Council or somebody for a grant. I think that we are developing a real problem.

I think one of the secrets that we have over the years, and one of the backbones of this country, has been that when a group wanted to do something there were three things that happened: No. 1, there was a group of individuals that committed themselves to a particular goal, to a project. Then what did they do? They went out and raised money; they did it themselves. The act of raising the money allowed them to have side benefits which we, when government, maybe lose sight of; and that is, that the community binds itself together.

If you get a group that is raising money for a particular project, whether it be a facility or an idea," what happens is they go out and they work together. So, first of all, you have the group that manages to pull different segments of society together to achieve that common goal; you then have the other benefit from it, you have the satisfaction that is derived from those people finally when their goal Is met.

No. 3, which is more important, you have that broad base in the community that, having worked for it, having funded them personally, then end up supporting it; and there Is a commi tment, a commitment which no government grant, or no cheque that a benevolent benefactor gives them can be created. I say to the Minister that it is a dilemma, not facing only his government, it faces all of us. I don't here this evening accuse the Mi nister of moving In a direction that maybe somebody else wouldn't have with all these grants because the monies are there, and we'll get to that later on with regard to the Lotteries.

The pressure is going to get bigger and bigger, and we are seeing ourselves move Into an area where sports, multiculturalism and culture, generally, will rely almost exclusively on what? On gaming. That's where we are moving to, so there will be more and more pressure on the Min ister to lift the limit on the 90-day casino, to have an instant-win ticket come into the system because everybody wants more money and that's where it's going to come from.

So I say to the Minister that he, as Min ister, the successive Ministers, will all be facing this problem and it's not a simple one, and I don't have an answer overnight, except that somewhere along the line there will have to be a resolve by the people to try and put a cap on this because it's just going to get out of hand and we just won't be able to deal with it. 2148

Tueeclay, 21 May, 1985 Having said that, I would ask the Minister how much out of this - I just did some quick calculations and I notice about $10 million out of his $20 million budget has to do with recreation, historical, culture and these types of things - how much does he anticipate spending this year from Lotteries? In other words, what will he directly influence in Lotteries this year in dollars? I know that we're getting to the Lotteries a little later on, but here is the other dilemma.

In this cultural component and recreation component, we have the Minister on the one hand spending a certain amount of money on the arts and on cultu ral grants coming from the department and other general revenues; we have the other side, which is under the direct ministerial responsibility, and that's the grants that come out of the Lotteries Trust Fund; and then we have the Manitoba Arts Council who is also, not only drawing money from Lotteries, but is also drawing money from General Revenue.

So, for the average person to understand it, even for someone who's been at it for awhile, having seen the Recreation now move into the Minister's portfolio and the Sports and Recreation being torn apart, it becomes pretty difficult in order to try and get an overall picture of what's really happening.

So I would ask the Minister two questions, what he anticipates he's going to have at his disposal to spend and give out as far as grants under the Cultural Heritage and Recreation grants, and what amount of money is going to be available out of Lotteries to supplement the already 1.3 million that the Manitoba Arts Council is getting out of General Revenues? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'll try to answer the questions, I think I missed the last one. Let me just respond briefly to the general comments that the member raised.

I think that one has to look at what is the philosophy behind some of the programs that are lottery-based. I think you would have to recognize that there are two major objectives behind most of the programs.

One is to allow, though lottery-based revenues, an equalization, if you will, of opportunities between people that reside, basically half the population that resides in the City of Winnipeg and the other half that resides outside of the City of Winnipeg because, as the member is aware, opportunities are not equal in terms of the costs of bring ing people to provide training, to provide recreational opportu nities, to provide cu ltural opportunities in the rural areas or Northern areas as they are in the City of Winnipeg where you have the size and don't have the problems with distance and other things.

A good number of the lottery-based programs are designed to provide assistance for communities outside of the City of Winnipeg to equal ize their opportunities to those of us who are fortunate to live in the City of Winnipeg. The other basic philosophy that we have behind all of our programming, or most of our programming, is that there has to be a very high commitment of volunteer effort behind the community organizations that are reaping the benefits of the lottery-based programs.

Indeed, the funding is always tied to some significant portion being raised by the organization itself, by individuals within the community, or by commitments, in part, by other levels of government. I think that's a principle that has to be maintained to a significant degree so that you do, not what the member suggests could happen and could develop even further, which I don't agree with, where you're going to have organizations that are totally dependent on sources of revenue like lottery-based, but where there is a significant portion of their revenues and activities that are financed through other sources.

As an example, some of our programs pay no more than 25 percent of the total costs of the operations of an organizations with maximum dollar limits besides that 25 percent rule. So I think that, as long as that is maintained, the lottery funds can be used as a catalyst to help commu nity-based, volunte er-based organizations provide opportunities in the broad area of Cultur e, Recreation and Heritage for people in their communities, but I think you have to maintain that level of cost sharing, that level of local commitment. In terms of the specific questions, let me see if I can answer them.

The approvals for programming out of Lotteries for this year is $6.3 million for Culture, Heritage and Recreation. That is all the programs outside of the programs that are delivered by the Department of Health, being the Sport programs. There is an additional carry-over of 960 from previous years' allocations of expenditures. I'm afraid I didn't hear the member's last question. MR. R. BANMAN: Out of this, does the portion that Manitoba Arts Council will get as being a member of what used to be the Western Canada Lotteries, Manitoba distributor, is that included in the 6.3? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: No, I'll be able to provide the detail on that when we deal with Lotteries, but that is separate. None of the funds that are derived from this go to the Manitoba Arts Council. They are part of the arts umbrella which has been formed, along with the other umbrella groups. I can provide the detail on that when we get onto Lotteries a bit later. MR. R.

BANMAN: This is the difficulty, as I outlined to the Minister before, you've got a multicultur al group, you've got multicul tural grants in here and yet you've got a multlcultural group now, an Arts Council, Sports and, specifically in dealing with these Estimates, it's pretty hard to get a handle. You've got $10 million in your Estimates.

You've got 6.3 million which really we can ask some questions on, but which you're not providing us a budget with tonight; you've got a Mul ticultural Council which will be having $2 million or $3 million at their disposal; you've got an Arts Council which will get more than you've allocated in your Estimates to deal with. So we're starting to talk some pretty big numbers here that are not included in the spending Estimates at all. That's the difficulty, I point out to the Min ister, that members of the opposition have.

We're getting this stuff right now, it's not ·included in the Estimates, and it's something that, when we w�re government and we didn't provide and I'm not goi.,g to blame the Minister tonight for not providing I But wha happening, and the Minister must sense that it's ha. ;>ening, is that we're starting to talk such 2149 going it what's happ were

Tuesday, 21 May, 1985 large dollar volumes already; we're not talking 500,000 anymore, he's talking 6.3 million which he is going to have at his disposal to dispose of in an election year the way he sees fit. He will set the guidelines, and the Cabinet will sign the 0/C and pass it. The member from Treasury Board sits here, the Treasury Board Chairman sits here, and looks at the Minister. I'm telling the honourable gentleman opposite that we're starting to talk some awfully big dollars here which really is escaping the review process of the Legislature because there is no budget.

There is no plan set down for that money because the Order-in-Council can be passed any time to provide any particular interest group with money as the government sees fit. They are charged with the respons ib ility of administrating and that's fine. I'm just saying, from an opposition standpoint and from a public accountability standpoint, that I think there will have to be a time where we sit down and we tie this all down and that, when we sit down at these Estimates, we know exactly what we're spending on Cultural Affairs.

Because here we are, $20 million here, $6.3 million in Lotteries, multicultural out here tied into the Lotteries system, the Arts Council tied in over here and yet tied In to our Estimates. lt's pretty hard in one afternoon and one evening to get a real picture of what's happening, because I would like to be able to spend a few days comparing these 800 grants that the Minister has given out with what the Multicultural group is giving out, what the Arts Council is giving out, and what the Mi nister projects to give out next year on the $6.3 million that he's going to spend on the other programs.

So I think we're coming to a point and, hopefully, our governmental system is flexible enough to make changes as changes happen. I suggest to the Minister that, with Lotteries becoming such a big portion and maybe surpassing the wildest imagination of any of us, as far as revenues are concerned, we should be seriously considering, and I would ask the Minister - I know that the biggest problem that he'll have is he probably won't have the opportunity to implement it because he probably won't be there, but that will be the biggest problem.

But I lay it on the record that I would ask the Minister to maybe start that process because I think any successive government will really want to tie this all down and should something happen, which many of us would of course wager a lot against, that he receive that job for the next four years, I hope that he would take my few comments here to heart and provide a system which wou ld give us a li ttle more of a comprehensible review of what's happening in the whole field. HON. E. KOSTYAA: I appreciate the member's comments maybe that area should be reviewed.

But to suggest that somehow this has grown in such a fashion without any public accountability, I think that as we'll have the opportunity later this evening hopefully to discuss the accountability in terms of Lotteries has increased, I mean, most of the monies that we're talking about in total have been spent, the overall increase in the amount of money that's being spent on all aspects of Lotteries and gaming in the province has not increased as significantly as some of the now publis hed information.

The problem before was some of those funds were being spent by organizations or through organizations, whether it was total community involvement, whether it was other organizations that were involved In the Lotteries for the Manitoba Arts Council and Manitoba Sports Federation were part of the old partnership, and now under the new system through the umbrella groups that there is going to be reporting on each of the activities of the umbrella groups. As we get on to it I would expect that there will be detailed reporting on all of the activities of the various umbrella groups that make up the Lotteries.

But I think we're slipping into a separate area that we should be discussing a bit later and I will have some of the detail in terms of what each of the umbrella groups have received and what some of the expectations are and what some of the issues are related to that. But I would expect under the Lotteries reporting system that there will be that kind of detailed reporting developed and maybe we should look at a different way of dealing with some of these.

I am told that some of this over the years, was not even reported to Cabinet in any kind of overall fashion or went through any kind of Treasury Board process and some of those things have changed over time and maybe we ought to look at some other changes. MA. A. BANMAN: I can assure the Minister and a couple of my colleagues who sat around the Cabinet table when I brought. an Order-in-Council in giving somebody $175 under some program, I can assure the Minister that was all dealt with and very often the question was asked, if it takes $17 5 to make the program go, is it really worth it?

Will that program survive with or without it? But of course that's one of the dilemmas that we face. But I tell the Minis ter I think the thing is getting so big that you can no longer deal with Cultural Affairs without having a comprehensible review at the same time of what's happening on the Lotteries side of it. it's just too big. You're spending more out of Lotteries now on Cultural Affairs than you are out of general revenue. There is no way that we can, as opposition, go ahead and deal with it properly without having all that information at one time and in one pack;;�ge.

How that's accomplished, I don't know. But it's a suggestion that I throw forward to the Minister and hopefully, we will deal with it because I see in the future, with the growth in the Lotteries field, tha t the 50-50 ratio, which we are just about experiencing now, is going to grow and we're going to gather more money from Lotteries Into Culture and Sports than we take from general revenues. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MA. H. GAAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few questions I would like to ask the Minis ter.

In his dealing with the subject matter that was a matter of intense argument in this Chamber about a year-and-a-half ago, and that was the proposal of the Government of Manitoba of the Day, to institute bilingualism in this province; and we now see by a court case which Is presently before the courts the information that is coming out, that the Secretary of State of Canada has provided over $1 million in that one year to the 2150

TundaJ, 21 May, 1885 Societe Franco-Manito baine and I would like to ask the Minister, if the grants that were made to the various cultural organizations that appeared before the Committee of the Legislature dealing with the French language issue, if those grants come under the Lotteries Trust Fund, or whether they come under departmental appropriations? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't know which specific organizations - (Interjection) - you were . MR. H.

GRAHAM: There were a whole bunch of organizations that appeared before that committee and I just wonder whether they came from the Lotteries Trust Fund or whether it came under departmental appropriations. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'd have to look at the actual list of org anizations that appeared. If they were organizations that were involved in the multicultural field they would appear under the list that we provided.

Out of the Lotteries Trust Fund there's a list - a couple of pages - and on Page 2 called Multicultural Grants, those are grants that are payable to organizations that are Involved in the preservation or enhancement of multlculturalism in the province. Th ere 's a grant program that provides for grants of up to 25 percent of their ongoing cost for the organization. So if they were ethnic-based organizations, they would qualify under that program and it would be listed under that listing.

If the member is asking or is trying to develop the question to the point of asking whether or not any organization received funding for their participation in the debate on the French language, the answer is no. MR. H. GRAHAM: I note, for example, that there were two or three Ukrainian groups; some that supported the government stand and some that didn't. Now would that make any difference to the amount of money that they would receive? Like, I note the Ukrainian Canadian Committee, Winnipeg Branch, only got $725; but the Ukrainian Commit tee, Winnipeg Branch, Ho lod Committ ee got $5,000.00.

Now was it the Winnipeg Branch Holod Committee that appeared before the committee? I believe it was but I'm not positive on that. HON. E. KOSTYRA: The answer without getting angry, frankly, is no. The amount of money that is awarded to these organizations is based on a formula and a criteria that is in a grant program and that is how the grants are based. In terms of any other impact on their grant for any other reasons, as the member suggests, is a false accusation.

In terms of the specific question, the Ukrainian Canadian Committee, Winnipeg Branch, which lists a grant of $725 and Ukrainian Canadian Comm ittee, Winnipeg Branch Holod Commi ttee, are the same organization. The Holod Committee actually I believe should read, Holo caust Committee, which was a comm ittee of the Ukrainian Canadian subcomm ittee that had a special commemoration with regard to the holocaust in the Ukraine and they received that grant for that specific project.

I might also add, if the member is suggesting, that organization is one that opposed the government's effort, that to my recollection that was the first year that organization received any government funding. In previous years, they did not receive funding, nor do I believe they applied. So the first year they applied they received funding. MR. H. GRAHAM: I noticed also that the Danseurs de la Riviere-Rouge, which I recall making a presentation before that commi ttee, received a grant of $11,500.00. Could the Minister indicate the amount of the money that they received?

How much of that went towards their participation before the commit tee of the Legislature? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I' ve al ready answered that question. None of the organizations that are listed on there received any funds, nor were any of their grants impacted by any other activities other than what they applied for under the program, under the criteria for that program. So the answer to the question is, none of that money was directed for the purposes that the member is suggesting. MR. H.

GRAHAM: I note also that one of the committees that was very active, before that committee was the Manitoba 23, and I don't see their name on this list. We're they supported in any way by the government at that time? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, is this list that we have received the entire list of all groups that have received multicultural grants? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: From the Province of Manitoba, the one from Lottery Trust and there's a subsequent one for appropriation, or the total of grants were paid out in the fiscal year ending March 31, 1984 by the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. MR. H. GRAHAM: That is the total list? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: I noticed going through the list that on the first page you start with the A's, the B, C, D, E, F, G, H. The next page starts with S, T, U, V, W, Y and Z. Is it possible there Is a page missing? HON. E. KOSTYRA: If there is a page missing, It'll be provided to the member. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I took the list down and I ran it through the adding machine. The grants that are on here totalled $266,096, and the total on yours is $405,000.00. Can the Minister indicate where the discrepancy lies.? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There is obviously some information that's missing. We'll have it for the member as soon as we can find it. Staff have found it. MR. H. GRAHAM: You have found the page. Mr. Chairman, I'll wait until I see the other page before I ask any further questions. 2151

Tuesday, 21 Mey, 1985 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHN STON: Mr. Ch airman, un der the departmental grants or appropriations, we have the Ukrainian Cultural and Educational Centre. Is this the centre that is out beside the Riding Mountain National Park - from Dauphin? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That centre is the centre that's on Alexander Avenue, just off of Main Street. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Has Cultural Affairs been involved in that centre outside of the Ukrainian Cultural Centre that's being built there? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: We were involved in consultation in the development of that under the Destination Manitoba Program. There was a capital grant provided out of last year's multicultural capital grants of $50,000 for that centre. There is no ongoing operating assistance at the present time for that centre out of the department. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This list of the grants for major cultural organizations, we have the grants before us that are departmental. Are there any Lotteries funds for these organizations? HON. E. KOSTYRA: For which ones? MR. F. JOHNSTON: Your $6,755,000.00. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: In addition to what's listed there? MR. F. JOHNSTON: In addition to what's showing here. HON. E. KOSTYRA: The only one is the Manitoba Arts Council which we discussed previously. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I'm sorry, when the Minister says "discussed previously," I wrote down the figures that were for this year, and could you just refresh my memory on the Manitoba Arts Council regarding Lotteries funds? HON. E. KOSTYRA: We discussed it during the comments that the Member for La Verendrye was making regarding the operations of the Manitoba Arts Council.

A portion of their operating funds comes out of the umbrella organization that the Manitoba Arts Council is part of which was formerly the partnership with TCI and other groups and the distribution of a portion of the lottery process. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I don't have any further questions, unless some of my colleagues do regarding the grants, but the Member for Virden may want to go back to that page when it's available, if that's fine, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you.

I wonder if the Minister could tell me what the total operating budget of the Winnipeg Art Gallery is going to be this coming year. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Their total planned budget for their fiscal year 1985-86 is $2,728, 100.00. MR. R. BANMAN: How about for the Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium? HON. E. KOSTYRA: $246,700.00. MR. R. BANMAN: And for the French Cultural Centre? HON. E. KOSTYRA: $478,100.00. MR. R. BANMAN: Can the Minister tell us what the $40,000 is going to be spent on? Is there any capital this year for the franco-manitobans? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Under the capital expenditures, which is Item No. 5, there is an unall ocated portion of - I think it's $40,000 - which is capital repairs for any of the facilities that are owned by the province that may be of an unplanned or emergency nature.

We will get into the details in the capital after, but that could relate to that facility which is owned by the province, the Centennial Centre which is owned by the province, or the Western Manitoba Centennial, any of those, there has been a contingency every year of a small amount in terms of any kind of emergency capital - I'm sorry, I am told it's $20,000 for emergency. So there is no planned capital expenditures, but if something did come up they could be funded out of there. We indicated in the previous year there was $40,000 for roof repairs and heating system repairs. MR. R.

BANM AN: Just another suggestion, Mr. Chairman. I know the Minister gave my colleague, the Member for Sturgeon Creek, the figures on this year's actual spending. The Minister has provided us with the' 83-84 expenditures;'84-85, which really has been here and gone and we are into the new year. I am wondering if there couldn't be some system established so that we know what the groups got - this is really two years ago - what they got last year, and what the Minister is anticipating they are going to get this year.

We do that in our Estimates book and, in dealing with this side of the coin, it's almost two years behind from what we are looking at I am wondering if there is a system where the Minister could implement a system where we could see exactly what's happening. HON. E. KOSTYRA: In terms of those grants under appropriation that has been the case, that information is provided because you do have the Estimate book and we provided the details on the respective line, which was the same as the case last year.

I have also - I recognize the missing copy, the middle sheet of that list of grants, that can be distributed to members. I apologize for the fact that it was missing, and I thank the member's diligent efforts in going through the grants to bring that to my attention. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, the grant to the lntercultural Council, is that a startup grant that the Minister gave them? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Which are you referring to? 2152

'nleaclay, 21 May, 1985 MR. R. BANMAN: That would be under Manitoba lntercultural Council. HON. E. KOSTYRA: That is the operating funds for the body that was set up by legislation two years ago, which is an operating budget of about 100 .. . Yes, that was - I think what the member Is looking at is the $139, 152 which was part of their first year operations. The full year was reported in Estimates last year and there is a separate line this year. lt's Item (

k) under the Estimates. MR. R. BANMAN: What is the difference between the Mani toba lntercultural Council and the Ma nitoba Mul ticultural Council? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm not sure what the Manitoba Multicult ural Council is. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, is this the group that is now going to be part of the Lotteries revenues? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The Manitoba lntercultural Council is the body that was set up by legisla tion two years ago.

We passed the bill in the House unanimously with respect to the formation of the Manitoba lntercultural Council, which is the agency that advises government and makes recommendations to government on policies regarding multiculturalism in the province. The figure that the member talked about, and Item (

k) is the operating cost of that council. There is a separate act of the Manitoba Legislature that gives them their mandate. The appointments of that are made two-thirds by the community and a maximum one-third by the province through the Lieutenant-Govern or-in-Council.

The Manitoba lntercultural Council is the organization that is the vehicle for the imp lemen tation of the multicultur al portion of the Lotteries just the same way as the Manitoba .Sports Federation is the body for sports, and the Arts Council is the body for the cultur al community, and the Community Education Association is the body for the private schools and so on. So they are doing it on behalf of the community as an agent. They are not deriving any money themselves for their operations from being part of the Lottery umbrella group. MR. R.

BANMAN: Is this the group that is going to be part of the Lottery umbrella group? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I said they are the organization tha t is going to admin ister it on behalf of the multicultural commun ity. They will not derive any revenues from it; they are merely adminis tering it on behalf of the community. They went through a public consul tatio n process in terms of how the various organizations felt the funds should be disb ursed and they have come up with a proposal to disbur se it to the community, but none of the revenue is going to them directly. MR. R.

BANMAN: So the Minister is saying this is like the Manitoba Sports Federation, like the Arts Council HON. E. KOSTYRA: Community Education Association. MR. R. BANMAN: Can the Mi nister tell us roughly what kind of a Lotteries budget these people are going to have next year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I believe it's in the range of $700,000, but I can give the detail when we deal with the Lotteries issue later. MR. R.

BANMAN: I don't want to sound like a broken record, but that's the problem that we have in dealing with all of this. lt's pretty hard to deal with this in isolation not knowing the funds that these people are going to be committing. If we knew what sort of funds there were, then we could start asking questions on how they're going to spend it and what their guidelines are. So I again point out to the Min ister that there is a problem developing here and we're going to have to deal with it. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I respect the point that the member is making.

I just point out that previously a good portion of those funds were being generated and shared through the operation of the private bingo halls without any accountability or system In place to allocate the days that different groups got or indeed where their funds would go. So it has been brought a step closer. The member's suggestion that maybe it move another step closer is something that we can review as we move down the road on this. MR. R. BANMAN: We won't get into that now, Mr.

Chairman, because I'm of the belief, and I think history will prove me right, that just for adminis trative convenience we've taken over the whole Lotteries field and really have taken some of the self-motivating, self­ starting provisions that were allowed in the other system away from the interest groups and have now taken that over. But be that as it may, that comes under a different

section and we'll talk about that later. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)(1)- the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Just one question. I'm just following along the questions from the Member for La Verendrye. Am I following it properly when I get the impression that the Manitoba lntercultural Councillor will now be the advisor on who gets the multicultural grants, that's the umbrella organization you're speaking about, the same as before? HON. E. KOSTYRA: They are the implementation vehicle for the di stribution of the grants to the com mun ity.

They are sett ing up a system of disbu rsemental grants with the communities that are being Impacted. They are not the ones who are making the actual decisions. They are setting up a mechanism just the same as the Sports Federation has one, the Community Education has one, the Arts Council has one, the Heritage Federation has one, each of the umbrella groups. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( b){1)-pass; 2.(b ){2) -pa ss; 2.(b)(3)-pass. 2.(c)( 1) Cultural Resources: Salaries; 2.(c)

(2) Other Expendit ures; 2. {c)

(3) Grant Assistance - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. 2153

Tuesday , 21 May, 1985 MR. F. JOHN STON: I don't seem to be able to find the Cultural Resources Grants list. Where would we find that, Mr. Chairman? HON. E. KOSTYRA: On the first page of the grant listing departmental appropriation, that's Provincial Regional Festival Grants showing a total of $83,000 to Associated Manitoba Arts Festival, Association Community Theatres of Manitoba, International Music Camp, Manitoba Holiday Festival of the Arts, and the Optimist Club of Assiniboia. MR. F. JOHN STON: Mr. Chairman, how many people administer these grants?

We've got a $265,000 salary appropriation here for what appears to be $1 00,000 worth of grants, $70,000 worth of Other Expenditures. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Very little of their time is spent on the administration of grants. This branch has eight staff, one director, five cultural development officers, one administrative secretary, one clerk typist.

The five cultural development officers work basically with the communities outside of Winnipeg with respect to cultural development in such areas as tour hosting, assistance to the Regional Services Branch, their ongoing work with the communities and there is one person who works with the ethnocultural community in community development. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Can I have that pass? MR . CH AIRMAN : 2. (c)( 1) -pa ss; 2. (c) (2)- pass; 2.(c)(3)-pas s. 2.(d)( 1) Recreation Services: Salaries; 2.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures • the Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to get into an argument tonight because we've all got distinct views of what recreation and what culture Is, and I know between the recreation people and the sports people and the cultural people, we'll sit down and we could probably argue that point all night, whether square dancing is recreation, or is culture, or is both. I know that is an argument that I have gone through. - (Interjection) - Well, I don't think it's foolishness, but it's a matter of where you want to classify it.

I would ask the Minis ter now whether or not the department In bringing the recreational component back into the Cultural Affairs

section is now in the process of asking recreational directors within the regions to look after such things as museums and that within their areas, whether it be in the Eastman region, Westman, or Norman or where? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I think the member's question Is not placed in the right

section but I'll answer it anyway. I think you're referring to the Regional Services staff which is the field staff for the department which are the regional managers and regional consultants. Is that who you're referring to or are you referring to recreation directors that are employed by municipal corporations or recreation districts? MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I think that if you're looking at Regional Services you have grant assistance and you're talking about the grants that go to the recreation dist ricts.

But I'm talkin g about the philosophical approach, or the administrative approach that the government is going to be taking with regard to their staff in the Recreation Services Branch. There is, I would imagine, a certain amount of direction that comes out of this particular branch, realizing full well that it's the Regional Services in many instances that have to carry out those directives. But if the Minis ter feels it is better to discuss it under (g), we'll discuss it under (

g) then. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'll deal with it now. The regional staff provide a service to all aspects of the department. Their primary function is to work with the community and communities in community development as it impacts on all areas of our department. So their mandate is broad in terms of the department. Their priorities are determined by the communities needs and they respond to that within the extent that's possible with the limited resources that there are in terms of regional staff. But the mandate is broad in terms of providing support • first li ne support • to the communities they service.

If there is a need for technical information or technical assistance in an area such as recreation specifically, they may call on the staff of this particular branch, the line that we're dealing with now, where we have facility consultants who can go out and provide advice on building codes and revising recreation facilities and expanding or building them. There are also recreation consultants who provide community board development and other related activities. lt's a matter of some support for the development of museum, then they call on the staff from the historic resources.

If it's information on cultural programming, then they would call on the expertise that exists In the branch that we just tal ked about • the Cultural Resources. So they have the broad mandate to assist out in the field. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, that of course has been one area where I think in many instances the department • again I have a little difficulty in tracing this through from the old Sports and Rec Department which I was more familiar· with . but is the Minis ter that this is the group that provides, if a curling rink wants to know how to become more energy efficient and upgrade their insulation, is this the Recreation Services that the Minister is talking about? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. B. BANMAN: How many people are involved in that program in physically giving advice to curling rinks, skating rinks, tennis courts, whatever? HON.

E. KOSTYRA: There are two facility consultants. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)( 1)-p ass: 2.(d)(2)- pass. 2.(e)

(1) Public Library Services: Salaries: 2.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures: 2.(e)

(3) Grant Assistance. 2.(e)(1) • the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the grants that we have here are'83-'84 and we have the grants that were 2154

Tuud ay, 21 May, 1185 in'84-'85, if I'm correct, Grant Assistance is $2,262,200, it remains the same. Have there been no libraries or new libraries start up in the past year, or has there been any additions to the library services? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There was four new libraries developed last year and they were absorbed within the total allocation. In fact, there was a lapsing factor in that $2.262 million figure last year. So it was felt that even if there was some marginal growth this year, that it could be absorbed within the allocation. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: We discussed this last year, the government was intending some changes and they decided not to make them, is the Legislative Library structure going to remain the same as it has? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That 's a further lin e in the Estimates. Maybe you just want to refer to it. That's Item 2.(j). MR. R. BANMAN: Does the Mini ster anticipate any new regional library districts being formed In the next year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: We don't anticipate any new library districts being formed. We understand there may be one munic ipality join an existing library district. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Kirkfield Park.

MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr . Cha irman, there was something in the paper awhile ago, I think it was the Lundar library, was it that it was going to close because they wouldn't allocate $5,000.00? Did that library close, do you know? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I understand that the council there voted against the proposed mill levy to set up the library. There was a library committee formed to support the establishment of Li brary Services for the R.M. of Coldwell under the provisions of The Public Libraries Act and they did have 5,000 donated books and $4,000 from public fund raising.

But in order to formalize the arrangement that's required under the Act In terms of municipal involvement, the mun icipality decided not to proceed with it. MRS. G. HAMMOND: So there hadn't been a li brary there then, it was closed because of this. HON. E. KOSTYRA: 11 wasn't a formalized library in terms of The Public Libraries Act. There was a group there that formed a kind of an ad hoc library with donated books and some donations of money. But they weren't a library that was formalized receiving ongoing support as required under The Public Libraries Act if they were formalized. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Is this volunteer library stili going or did it shut down? HON. E. KOSTYRA: it closed. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Did the y approach the government, the Minister at all for any help that they might receive outside of the formal funding? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There's no direct approach to my office in terms of any extra ordinary support. The staff of the department were the consultants who are available to commu nities outside of Winnip eg for assistance in forming libraries and were involved with a number of meetings for information to Individuals there.

But that was the only assistance provided by the department which was consulting assistance or consulting services. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is there any extraordinary funds that could be given to this type of a group to help them keep going? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No. There are provisions if they formalize the set ting up of a library. There's an establishment grant of $5,000 and ongoing funding after that, based on the formula that's in the provisions of the Act in terms of municipal cost-sharing.

The only assistance provided is that the department does provide library services to residents of those communities that are not part of any library system; that Is, that they can get books through mail or through other arrangements from the Public Library Services here in Winnipeg. That is the only assistance that's available to them in terms of library services. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Does the department give any extraordinary funding outside of the formal funding that's in place? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No. MR. CH AIRMAN: 2.( a)( 1)- pass: 2.(a )(2)-pass: 2.(a)(3)-p ass. 2.(f)

(1) Historic Resources: Salaries: 2.(f)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Memb er for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, there's a doubling of salaries here. I'm sure th e Mi nister will want to gi ve us an explanation for that. HON. E. KOSTYRA: First of all, the positions have changed from what was in the 1984-85 adjusted vote of 16.08 positions to 30 positions. What that reflects is a transfer.

First of all, the breakdown of the increase of costs is as follows: 21,000 is due to merit increases; there Is a transfer of 10 existing SY's that were previously funded under the Lottery Trust Funds which were turned, over time, into ongoing departmental functions that were being funded out of the Lotteries Funds, and it was determined that they would be more appropriately dealt with in appropriation because they were ongoing functions. So those are not new positions, they were merely transferred, formerly being paid out of Lotteries to being paid out of the appropriation ..

Tttere are four totally new positions which are to support additional activities that will result from the new Heritage legislation that's had first reading; it will be coming forward for second reading in the near future. The 10 transfers of positions are as follows: there are four dealing with archeological programs that were ongoing; four dealing with architectural heritage 2155

TUeaday, 21 May, 1985 programs that were formerly funded under the Lotteries; and two in the area of history research. That's the 10 positions that were transferred. So there are 14 new positions shown here, in essence, 10 of which are existing positions that are merely transferred from the Lotteries Trust Fund to the Main Appropriation, and four new SY's. There are additional costs of $2 1 ,000 for merit increases. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is this the discussion paper on new Heritage legislation for Manitoba? Certainly it's Heritage, but it's historic areas. Is this legislation planned to come forward this year? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: First reading has occurred, and second reading will be shortly, within a few weeks. MR. F. JOHNSTON: How did I miss that? Then the appropriation has monies in it to handle this new legislation then? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There were four new positions that have been set aside. MR. F. JOHN STON: I'm not sure, but did we ever receive any results of the comments that were requested when this was sent out? Has the Mini ster got results on that that could be provided to us? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, I have the latest update as of March 31st. I can provide the member with a copy of the results.

There were 256 questionnaires returned. MR. F. JOHN STON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(f)( 1)- pass; 2.(f)(2)- pass. 2.(g)

(1) Regional Services: Salaries, 2.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures, 2.(g)

(3) Grant Assistance - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHN STON: Well, this is the Regional Services, and this is where the grant assistance is provided. This isn't the grants for the monies, but this is the department that makes recommendations regarding . . . Are we talking about the Facilities Program, etc.? HON. E. KOSTYRA: This is the department that has regional staff in the eight regional offices. They are the first line of interface between the department and the commun it ies, the community organizations and muni cipal cou ncils and others.

They provide recommendations on various programs and activities In the department. MR. F. JOHNS TON: I think the Minis ter answered the question. This is the regional areas, as mentioned, first line and they make recommendations on grants that are provided for many of the programs that we have listed here before us. That's fine. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Recommendations or comments, depending on the grant program. MR. F. JOHN STON: Just to drop down to (c), the Grant Assistance of 338,000 . . . HON. E. KOSTYRA: That is the grants to the recreation districts, and one small grant to the City of Winnipeg. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, a few questions. Since the Cultural Affairs Department has now taken over the Recreation

section of what used to be Sport and Recreation, could the Minister tell us if the regional director or rec directors have had their job descriptions expanded to take in looking after museums and arts councils and things dealing with the . Cultural component, on top of what they did before, namely, with regard to recreation advisement? HON. E. KOS TYRA: Their resp onsibi lities were broadened to include interface in their communities or in their districts or their regions with all the community organizations that inte rface with the department. They're the first line of contact for the community organizations.

MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, coming from rural Manitoba, I would just like to express some concerns to the Minister. I mentioned earlier that we can get into a debate on the cultural versus recreation and the responsibilities or what really is sport, or what's culture and what's recreation. But one of the concerns I have - and this started many years ago - has really been heightened with the Manitoba Sports Federation entry into really looking after a large segment of the sports and, what I would call, recreation programs dealing with the various sports-governing bodies throughout the province.

The Sports Federation knows this and they recognize it and are slowly making some changes to try and indicate to rural Manitoba that the Sports Federation is not only based In Winnipeg to look after Winnipeggers solely. That Is that perception that Is constantly being felt out in rural Manitoba, whether it be in the North or in other areas. As I mentioned, they are trying to overcome that and they're working at it.

I attended a workshop in Beausejour the other day which was excellent, put on by the Manitoba Sports Federation and the different sports-governing bodies and was, I think, well attended and was well received in rural Manitoba. But really the front line for recreation services and sports services in the province throughout the years have been the recreational directors which provide regional services throughout the areas.

I say to the Minis ter, quite frankly, that I can't see that somebody who has been trained to be a phys. ed. person Is now coming in and telling people like the Dugald Costume Museum or the Manitoba Mennonlte Museum, dealing with them when they really weren't trained to do that. I say to the Minister, I think he's in danger of not doing the museums a service by putting these people there, not that these people aren't capable, but they were trained to deal with recreation. Here, I guess, I'm showing my colours on this argument.

I think that these people that were out there were doing an excellent job helping the di fferent sports di sciplines, gettin g established, helping the recreational regions being formed and things like that. I really can't see how they 2156

TuHday , 21 May, 1985 are going to do justice or how they are going to really help the Arts Councils and the museums and that type of thing in dealing with them. I think they got their job cut out for them In these big regions to deal with the recreation component, the sports component of it, and I just point that out to the Minister. I have some serious concerns about that - we'll have to see what happens - but I really can't see the rationale for doing that.

I lay those observations before the Minister now because some of these areas are vast and there is a lot of travelling to be done just dealing with the recreation commissions throughout the area, whether it be on a municipal basis or on a consolidated basis, and I really can't see that happening. I have one question that I would ask the Min ister dealing with the recreation commission grants. I wonder if the Mi nister has made any adjustments to those grants over the last three or four years or if tie anticipates on making any.

And, No. 2, does he ant icipate any recreation districts being formed in this coming year and, if so, how many? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Just on the general points, I certainly agree with the member when he expresses concerns about being able to have adequate resources to meet all the needs and demands of the communities, but I think the member has to recognize we are dealing at a time of limited government resources and we have to look at how we can deal with those resources effectively and efficiently.

The answer to the member's concern would be to hire separate staff to deal with the cultural communities, or to hire additional staff to deal with the museums, and I don't think we can afford those kinds of increases in order to provide the disti nct kind of service that the member suggests is needed. The emphasis or the activities of the regional staff have never been solely on the area of sport; their prim ary respo nsi bili ty has been for communit y development in areas related to recreat ional development however one, or however any commun ity, defines that.

So they have never been strictly there for the development of sport, but that certainly has been one component of their activity.

I think it's a way of dealing more effectively and efficiently with the operations of the department by having staff that have a broad mandate to deal with the commun ity, have the technical resources and technical support back home that is needed without setting up dual delivery systems, which was what was develop ing before the de partments did get amalgamated, because there was some move, in fact, under the previous government where a regional staff was put in place under the Department of Culture.

There were some demands in possible development where there could be a whole series of regional staff just in the area of culture. I think it would be far more effective to be dealing with the broad range of programming the department through one set of staff rather than having dual or triple staff operating in the rural areas. it would be nice if we had more funds to hire more staff and be able to meet all of the demands but that is impossible in these economic times.

In terms of the two specific questions, the grant level for the recreations grants, the recreations district has remained the same since it was first put in place back in 1974. So the grant level - that is the formula - has remained the same throughout that period. There has been an increase of expenditures because it has gone from $60,000 to over $300,000 because of the growth in districts. We understand there may be an additional three districts developing. There is one district that was just established this past year in the southwest. MR. A. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, aside from the numbers growing, the grant criteria, in other words, the amount of money that is being funded has remained the same, and the Min ister feels that there could possibly be one or two new ones being formed, is that right? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. A. BANMAN: Just to make one passing comment with regard to the Mi nister's earlier statement, maybe because I was too close to the situation, I still think that the government made a wrong move In disbanding the sports and recreation directorate.

I think that was a good unit; it was a group of people who were working well together and had done a lot of innovative things and made a lot of changes in the sports and recreation area in Manitoba over the years. I know it's not u p to the Minister to have made that decision, but I truly have to tell the Minister that it's too bad they were disbanded, and I think that in the long run both sport, recreation and culture will not be the better off for having done that. But that's hindsight and the government, for its own reasons, chose to do that. MR.

CH AIRMAN: 2. (g)(1 )-p ass; 2.(g)(2)- pass; 2.(g)(3)-pass. 2.(h)

(1) Provincial Archives: Salaries; 2.(h)

(2) Other Expenditu res; 2.(h)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I would just like to ask on the Provincial Archives the same question I asked about the libr aries. There was some planne d changes regard ing the Provincial Archives regarding the availability to Manitobans to using it. Is the policy going to remain the same as it always has been? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't know what changes the member is referring to.

There hasn't been any changes contemp lated in the operations of the Provincial Archives; nor is there any intended other than some minor variations In terms of access hours. There was actually, about a year ago, an increase in access hours into one evening opening, but there are no other changes being contemplated. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. A. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us an update with regard to the Hudson's Bay Company Archives which are being . . . MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to inform the member . . . 2157

Tuesday , 21 May, 1985 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: . . . that the Minister did answer that question. lt was asked out of order but he did answer it. Maybe if he could just give Mr. Banman a brief rundown. HON. E. KOSTYRA: The question was somewhat different. lt was a question dealing with the library holdings of Hudson's Bay Company which recently closed to the public on Main Street. That was the specific question the member asked before. In terms of the Hudson's Bay Archives, that which is in control of the Provincial Government, there aren't any changes.

There is no change; the agreement is in place, and there hasn't been any indication from the province's standpoint to alter the agreement, nor has the company asked for any changes in the agreement. MR. R. BANMAN: Is that part of the recovery section? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could tell us if anybody has walked away with any of the stuff from the Provincial Archives Building lately. HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, there hasn't been any thefts that we are aware of in recent times in the Archives.

The security was changed considerably shortly after that; part of it was part of the ongoing renovations that were being planned; some of it was increased as a result of that unfortunate theft. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just a question of general interest, there was considerable concern expressed some time ago, particularly at the time that papers and documents, such as the Hudson's Bay Papers came into possession of the province, about the facilities themselves.

I know that some years ago, dating back five or six years ago now, that substantial renovations dollars were asked for for ensuring that the plant, the physical facilities, would be of the nature that our archivists were satisfied that they would and could, in fact, be well stored and looked after. Having been Minister of Government Services at the time that some of those original renovation contracts were let, I have an interest to knowing whether or not the work has succeeded, whether the renovations are in fact doing what they were set out to do.

In fact, are experts satisfied that they can house these documents in a way that their preservation is guaranteed? HON. E. KOSTYRA: In terms of the Archives, most of the renovations have now been concluded. I think there is some small portion going on, they have been going on for a number of years. The facilities for the Archives, both the Provincial Government Archives and the Hudson's Bay collection are, as my staff whispered in my ear, some of the finest in the country in terms of the controlled storage and facilities.

There is potential for further renovations to the Archives Building for the record-keeping function of the Archives, which is presently being operated out of a warehouse in St. James. That is something that would have to be dealt with over time in terms of when the resources are available. MR. H. ENNS: Well I'm pleased to hear that, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. One further question, and that's not to be in any way construed as critical, what are the ongoing costs to the Manitoba taxpayers for the housing, supervision that's involved in the Hudson's Bay Archives?

I'm fully aware of the fact of their importance and their asset to our Archives and, particularly to the history of this province, but 1 don't recall exactly what the details were at the time that those papers and documents were turned over to the province. I think it's appropriate, from time to time, to ask what it is, to what extent the public purse is called upon to maintain those papers. HON. E. KOSTYRA: The figure would be approximately $250,000 and eight staff.

That is the direct staff that are involved in running it, it does not include the portion of that building heating costs or, if one wanted to equate, the rental for that space. I don't have that information. MR. H. ENNS: Well just one other general question, can the Minister indicate to us to what extent - I don't know how to ask this question, but I apPfeciate that Archives are kept for many reasons, historical and otherwise.

I would think that they were also there, of course, principally as resource material for scholars, for students, for people or even for interested members of the general public who wish to avail themselves of the material that we are, at some considerable public expense, housing. Can the Minister give me any indication as to what kind of traffic occurs in the Archives Building? I don't know how you would measure that, either how many visitors, how many calls, or research work done. You know, we measure library participation by the number of books being used.

We measure other services by government in terms of how they're reaching out to numbers of people. I would need to know if the Archives - if that is an alive process - that the people, scholars, students, historians, amateur or otherwise, can avail themselves of the accumulating treasures that we have in that operation. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I would direct the member's attention to the Annual Report of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. Those statistics are in there. The last reported year, 1983-84, had 7,384 research visits, 5,482 correspondence, 15,063 telephone calls. MR. H.

ENNS: I thank the Minister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: lt gets fairly extensive use. MR. H. ENNS: I suppose I could have researched that myself, but it's always easier asking the Minister himself rather than reading all the reports that cross my desk. MR. CHA IRMAN: 2.(h )( 1)- pass; 2.(h) (2)-p ass; 2.(h)(3)-p ass. 2.(1)

(1) Legislative Li brary: Salaries; 2.(1)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. 2158

Tueeday. 21 May, 1985 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the same question. Maybe the Mi nister could answer the question now. Will there be any change in the structure of the Legislative Library or the policies regarding the Legislative Lib rary? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No. there are no major or structural changes contemplated. We are reviewing the operations. We're also in the process of doing a user survey which I think has commenced In terms of who uses the library for what purposes, ideal hours, that kind of thing. But there are no major structural changes being planned. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(j)(1) -p ass; 2.(j)(2)-pass. 2.(

k) Manitoba lntercultural Council - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNS TON: Mr. Chairman, how many organizations are involved in the lntercultural Council now? Has it increased since - well, this is 1984. We've gone through 1985. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I believe there are 40 communities that are represented on the council itself. I believe that has remained the same or the previous year it may have increased slight ly. I can take that question as notice, and provide it subsequently if there was any change. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I believe the Minis ter mentioned they met, if I'm not mistaken, twice a year, did he say? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, what I mentioned was that they have a biannual conference and that's dictated by legislation, that the election to the council has to be held once every two years, and that's done at a major conference or convention of all of the ethnocultural organizations. The council itself meets every three months. The executive meets monthly, and then they have a series of committees that meet, I guess, as issues arise to be dealt with. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I believe they have their own facility or offices.

Is the cost of those offices in here? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, that's the total cost of their operations in terms of support from the department and that does include office rent. I was just going to give the actual figure from the budge t of $22,000.00. MR. F. JOHNSTON: And the balance is paid to the executive and members of the lntercultural Council for meetings? I believe the Minister gave me a figure last year of how much per meeting was paid to the members and how much the executive received per meeting. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I did provide that information last year.

I can provide the details of their planned budget. I think it will be slightly less than that because I don't believe the grants that we're providing to them will meet their planned budget so it would have to be scaled back. This is what they had submitted. Salaries were $98,000, which I believe is two or two-and-a-half staff positions; office operations of $1 8,500; seminars, conference expenses of $12,000; advertising of $4,000; rent, $22,000; meeting costs, $35,000; remuneration, which I believe is the payment to board members, of $38,000; special projects, $40,000.00. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Is the executive elected from the membership of the lntercultural Council, or does the Mi nister appoint the executive? HON. E. KOSTYRA: All of the members of the executive are elected by the council except for the chairperson. The chairperson is appointed by Order-in-Council. The present chairperson was appointed in that fashion after consultations with the then executive. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, does the indemnity for the chair come from the 195, or does it come from the Executive Council? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, from the 195. MR. F. JOHNSTON: From the 195. What is the indemnity of the chairman? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I'm sorry , I don't have that detail here. I think we provided all of the figures last year for Indemnity. lt was on a per meeting basis, and it has remained the same. If the member wants, I can get that detail again, but there has been no change in indemnity from the previous year. MR. F. JOHNSTON: That's fine. I have it in my file. That's fine, and there's a change. Okay. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wonder if the Minister could ind icate some of the chang es that have been recommended by the council, and ones that the government possibly has acted on. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The annual report of the council was tabled in the Legislature, the annual report for the year end ing March of 19 84, whic h goes into considerable detail in the activities of the council and their recommendations. lt also includes comment on those recommendations that have been acted upon and agreed to by government. They include, just going by memory, revisions to the Multicultural Grants Program that we talked about earlier, the Linguistic Grant Program they reviewed and made recommended changes.

They made recommendations dealing with issues such as the mental health needs of Southeast Asians, in terms of activities of the Department of Community Services. They have made . . . MRS. G. HAMMOND: If it's in the report, I can read that. HON. E. KOSTYRA: ... visible mi norities and affirmative action. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(k)- pass. 2.(m)

(1) Manitoba Film Classification Board: Salaries; 2.(m)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. 2159

Tuesday, 21 May, 1985 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, we're aware of the announcement of the Minister's to expand the duties of the Classification Board and I wonder if he could outline just the Classification Board's increase in staff to take care of it, and then there's a very large increase in Other Expenditures which I'm sure has to do with the increased duties, but it's a very large increase. I wonder if we could have some explanations on that? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, I'll go through all of the two lines. Sal aries - this provision is for three permanent staff.

At the present time there is 1.13 staff for the board. So this will increase it to three: two inspector and projectionist positions; one clerk typist. So the increase in Salaries of $33,500 is a small provision for merit increases and $38,300 for the additional staff. On Other Expenditures, the increases are for general administration costs and for the payment of expenses incurred by board members.

That $240,000 includes $60, 000 in non- recurring costs for equi pment acquisitions - that would be video equipment with respect to the classifications of videotapes, and an additional $180,000 for increased operating costs which include the per diems that are paid to each person to view a film or video. There's a payment of $25 per film, or now, per video and there will have to be increased costs in the viewing because there'll be more items to view because of the inclusion of videos and the backlog. There are some additional costs in the rental of somewhat larger premises for the staff and equipment. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, the question I was going to ask is, are they still in the same facilities? When you say larger facilities, have you moved the whole Film Classification Board into new facilities or is there one doing films, and another in another area doing the video? HON. E. KOSTYRA: They will be moving their offices on July 1st to another unit in the same complex, slightly larger. MR. F. JOHNSTON: As to the policy on the videos which the Minister announced, there's no question.

I think he would agree that it's going to be a fairly complicated and, let's say, tough job to be able to get a handle on all the videos. I'm sure we can do it as far as the retail outlets are concerned. What is the structure that's being set up to, hopefully, have the government involved in all of the videos that we have coming into the province that are undesirable? Certainly, there are probably some underground type of videos going on, but that is not desirable to have happen.

What is the structure, let's say, for the policing or for getting a handle on what is happening so that the Minister's policy can be put into a really effective and, hopefully, a very effective method of policing these? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The basic premise will be that once the changes to the act and once the administrative structure is finally put in place, the videos that are rented in the province will have to be classified in the same way as films are.

In other words, if any videos are being sold or rented that have not been classified, then they will be in contravention of The Amusements Act as it may be amended later this Session. So that would be the basic position and it will be up to all of the participants to ensure that it is policed. We, as you notice, have just a small inc rease in staff so there will be some monitoring of the retail establishments.

We will respond to consumer complaints about receiving videos that are not classified and there'll be immediate investigation and, hopefully, the problem can be corrected there without having to resort to any . charges - and co-operation with the industry, because I don't believe that the industry or the majority of the retail establishments want to be in contravention of the law or want to operate that way. There may be some, as in any business or any area, that want to skirt around what may be the law, but I think the majority of the industry and the community will respond. So that would be the basic process.

MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Minister mentioned the $25 per viewing. Has there been any increase in the board? There may have been and I missed it. Has there been? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There hasn't been any increase in the number of members on the board, or in the amount the individuals receive for viewing. We may Increase the board as a result of bringing in the changes. In fact, we probably will increase it. At the present time, there's a legislative provision in terms of the maximum numbers on the board and that · may be one of the revisions that is brought forward in the bill that has already received first reading. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.( mX1) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: I was looking through the Grants. I see we have two pages of - (Interjection) - Have you got any more questions? MR. F. JOHNSTON: No, I was going to suggest that we pass this item and then Mr. Graham wanted to ask some questions on that page. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(mX 1)-p ass; 2.(mX2)-p ass. Resolution 43: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $15,667,300 for Culture, Heritage and Recreation for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1985- pass. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I notice that we have two full pages of lingui stic Support Grants starting with the Airport Hutterian Brethren School for $240.00. Some of them $150, some $130, $170, they're all listed, two full pages . Then we go to the next page and we see Cultural Industry Support, $3,500 for New West Publi shers and then $100,46 1 for miscellaneous expenditures. I wonder if the Minister has provided the breakdown, even as low as $130, on some of the other programs, if he could give us a breakdown on that as well.

We don't have to have it right away, but if we can get it before the committee meets again, that would be fine. 2160

Tuesday , 21 May, 1985 HON. E. KOSTYRA: Unfortunately, the staff who are involved in that specific area have left, but there'll be no problem in providing that. Just from memory, it's no grant support, but what it was is program expenditures in terms of contracts for policy work that was done in terms of developing the Cultural Indu stries Program. I think there were a number of consulting contracts that were let under that in order to develop the cultural industries policy, but I will provide the full details for the member. MR. H. GRAHAM: I thank the Minister for that. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHN STON: We've now come do wn to communic ation services and there will be some questioning on that. I will ask the Minister when I can discuss the cultural industry's development agreement with him but, other than that, I would suggest committee rise for tonight. MR. CHAI RMAN: What is the pleasure of the committee? HON. E. KOSTYRA: If I could just respond to the question. The cultural industry, you're referring to the Federal­ Provincial Agreement.

We discussed part of that in terms of the discussion we had early on the support program for periodicals and book publishing, but we can deal with that frankly at any point. If we want to start the next meeing of the committee on that point, I have no problem with that at all. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, D. Blake: We are considering the Estimates of the Ma nitoba Crop Insurance Corporation, Item 2.(a) - the Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate getting recognition after having the floor just prior to the dinner hour.

I want to make a few comments. We'll be some time on Crop Insura nce. I would like to ask the Minister, and I think it's a matter of policy, I see that the General Manager of the Crop Insurance is able to be with us this year. Last year, we flipped right through it and we missed him. This year, there are a lot more controversial issues in the corporation, so we'll spend somewhat more time.

I do have a question of the Minister, and it deals again with his political posturing and the use of the Department of Agriculture and the corporations relating to the Department of Agriculture, and would ask him as to when the policy of the Crop Insurance Corporation was changed so that there were specific issues sent out to different regions of the province with his picture with the director from his area, yes, I grant that they've got the Federal Minister as well, but they've got the Crop Insurance agent from Fisher Branch which is in his riding.

They've got the Crop Insurance agent which is from the lnterlake, but is from my colleague's riding of Stonewall. But this document is specifically targeted at the Minister of Agriculture's riding or his area. I would ask the Minister as to why - and I don't particularly think the rest of the people of Manitoba missed seeing his picture in their kitchen, but it seems somewhat strange that we now have the Department of Agriculture or the Crop Insura nce sending specific letters to certain regions. Maybe the Minister could explain as to why this Is taking place. Is it to give him more political coverage?

Is it to keep the farmers better Informed as to what's happening in Crop Insurance? Is it a policy of the government now to point out who the directors of Crop Insurance are specifically in those regions? Being a member of Crop Insurance or a contract holder of crop insurance, I haven't received a letter in my mail stating who my director is or who the Mi nister is - (Interjection) - the Mi nister says, am I a 25-year man? Well let 's deal with it, because I think it's important. I think, Mr.

Chairman, and it goes back to the question that was before us before the dinner hour, that the southwest area of the province was the first area that ever had crop insurance. lt was done on a trial basis, and expanded from there. I can't see why he couldn't have expanded or made use of the southwest area for a feed security program at the same time. But I ask the Minister, is it now the policy of Crop Insurance to send specific newsletters to different areas, and hope that each one is going to be treated equa lly, not that we miss his picture in the southwest area.

But just is it now his policy to spend taxpayers' money to better his own image? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, D. Scott: The Minister of Agricultur e. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member should be aware that bulletins from the Crop Insu rance Corporation were sent out regularly, not in this format but in another format, advising farmers of change. Now the member makes reference to an area in the province, namely the lnterlake area, and highlights the agents - the Federal Minister of Agriculture, myself and the board member from the lnt erlake area.

The honourable member should be aware that that piece of correspondence was targeted specifically at the lnterlake. A MEMBER: Yeah, I can see that. HON. B. URUSKI: No, no, of course, and it was a delibe rate move to ... - (Int erjection) - Mr. Chairman, the honourable member, if he would just listen for a moment and not jump to conclusions, he might not get himself into the predicament that he got himself into before the dinner hour of raising issues and not knowing what he was talking about. The move to target the lnterlake area was made for one specific reason, and one specific reason alone.

The ln terlake area historically has been the lowest participating area, a risk area in the province in terms 2161

Tueaday, 21 May, 1885 of the number of farmers insured. The changes that we brought into the program certainly should be highlighted and farmers be advised. Because of the type of changes that have been implemented, we had hoped to be able to promote and sell the program and make sure that as wide a distribution as possible of the farming community could be reached. Mr. Chairman, as well, we did cover his area in terms of the entire province with a similar bulletin, Crop Insu rance News, which, had he brought it out, came out the month before that one and I believe was targeted to the southwest.

This one was throughout the entire province highli\:lhting the history of crop insurance in this province with a message from the Federal Minister and a message from myself, a plug for the Livestock Feed Security Program and increased hail coverage; and, as well, h�hlighting the significance of having our contract No. 4, a 25 year person, I believe, from his own constituency. The honourable member himself attended the 25th anniversary of crop insurance which was held in Deloraine - or Melita?

Melita it was - the reception held in Melita, and Grant Andrews, I had the honour and privilege of meeting with Mr. and Mrs. Andrews in their home in that area, and that was the first publ ication. Of course, it did have a message from John Wise and from Bill Uruski in that publication. A MEMBER: I know John Wise. Who is the other guy? HON. B. URUSKI: Charlie Mac lean was the other fellow on the front page. He was the individual who had been with the corporation back in 1961 when he joined the corporation in the southwest region as well. So, Mr.

Chairman, in terms of giving the corporation a higher profile, it is true in terms of targeting the lnterlake region on a specific basis in the second piece of information, there likely will be one or two others in a year probably in terms of the same amounts, In terms of information as there have been in previous years. The format, of course, is somewhat changed and highlighted, but really, basical ly, the information is similar.

Trying to give a personal approach that the corporation is people and it is staff from the Department of Agriculture and it is staff as boards of directors and it Is staff as individuals who work with farmers and that has been the type of approach that is being used. But basically the reason that it was targeted in one region of the province, that one document in one region of the province, specifically was to highlight the program changes and clearly a marketing tool to try and market crop insurance in an area that has historically been the lowest served anywhere in the province. � MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister can do all the smoke screening he likes. lt was truly taxpayers' 91oney used to try and improve the Image of the MiniMer of Agriculture. He talked to us earlier this afternoon about what his ambitions were and of course it was to highlight the Minister of Agriculture and to put his best front forward. He hasn't changed any when it comes to the operation of crop insurance. I don't believe it was the general manager of crop insurance that said, Mr. Minister, we need your picture and we need the Federal Minister's picture and we need the dir ector's picture.

I would believe that it was the Minister of Agriculture who came forward and said, wouldn't it be nice if we targeted specifically in the lnterlake to tell them what good things we're doing as far as the Government of Manitoba is concerned. I accuse him of that, Mr. Chairman. I don�t accuse the Crop Insurance Corporation of doing that. I accuse the Minister of doing that.

He said earlier in the Estimates today what his objective was and it hasn't changed any when it comes to dealing with the Department of Agriculture, and I'm somewhat disappointed that the Minister of Agriculture, if he has information that's going to be of use to the . lnterlake, that it would be of assistance to all the rest of the people of Manitoba. I can't see why he wouldn't have sent a normal newsletter out. He says the format has changed. Well, I agree.

He has changed the format; he has changed the colour of it, but I think it would have been less political­ appearing if he'd have done it on a general mall-out basis, rather than just specifically targeting it at the lnterlake. · The Minister earlier this afternoon, Mr. Chairman, made reference to the fact that there were some major increases in crop insurance participation by some 1,360.

Could he confirm, that even with that increase of 1,360, that it hasn't reached the all-time high of crop insurance participation by Manitoba farmers of the either late 1970s or early 1980s, that really the 1,360 increase that he brags about really doesn't reach the all-time high numbers of sign-up as far as Ma nitoba farmers are concerned in Manitoba crop insurance - that he is again leading the committee and the public to believe that we have reached a new plateau as far as crop insurance sign-ups, but in fact the numbers of crop insurance people who are participating is still lower than what the all-time peak was.

HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I want to briefly comment on two points. One, that I didn't deal with, after I rose, that the member raised before we broke for supper, and that is the issue that was left here, the impression that was left that if the province would in fact lessen its rigidity to the Crop Insurance Program. The entire province could be covered tomorrow under the Feed Security Program. That's the impression that was left by the Honourable Member for Arthur, and I want to indicate that If that was the case, Mr. Chairman, why would we have to, in negotiations with the Federal Government,

schedule a number of crops that we would have liked to put on the program. In fact, we have a tentative scheduling - the honourable member should know. He was in this office. Maybe he doesn't remember. There has been an ongoing

schedule of negotiations, and we are looking always at two or three years in advance as to which crops we will be able to

schedule based on the money flow, not that we wouldn't be able to handle it. We would have to gear up as quickly; it would cause us difficulty, but an equal difficulty is the amount of premium dollars and premium sharing on behalf of the Federal Government. I mean, you just can't lump 20 new crops and say we've got a program tomorrow and we're going in the whole province. Even the honourable member should realize that's the case. Either he's being mischievous 2162

Tuesday, 21 May, 1985 or he just - well, maybe I should back off, Mr. Chairman. Maybe he was ignorant of the facts and didn't know what the situation was, because we have many crops that we've backd ated and we've had to negotiate and try to move them In because dolla rs are tight. We have to negotiate th ose programs with the Federal Government, whether it be the Livestock Feed Security Program or regular Crop Insurance Programs. There are many crops that are not insured that we would like to insure, and those negotiations are ongoing with the Federal Government.

When their dollars are freer, then we can bring In more crops and get them on the table and negotiate them and have them insured. So to make that assertion on the Livestock Feed Security Program really doesn't wash, Mr. Chairman, because we have the same backlog and the same situation. The honourable member should remember. lt was no different when he was I" office. You were trying to move as many crops as you could on an ongoing basis, and were doing the same with the Livestock Feed Security Program and with the regular program. Insofar as the information, Mr.

Chairman, in the lnterlake, I want to find out from the honourable member what he finds so politically motivating and image building in a document that tries to give factual information on the basis of staff reaction and premiums and programs that farmers can participate in. Does he find objectionable the message from John Wise and myself who are in the Inner page, indicating and announcing program improvements and also giving some indication based on the coverage of spring wheat, a 1984 coverage of 60 percent? Is there something wrong with that information? Or a statement from the agent who is in the lnt erlake?

And I said we have targeted the information directly at the region of the province which has had the lowest participation rate anywhere In Ma nitoba, and it was specifically designated. Or does he find something offensive about the statement of the regional manager, Mr. Charlie McLean, who looked back and reminisced about the 25 years of the corporation? Is that any less valuable or more valuable than the information there?

Or a message, again, from John Wise, Minister of Agriculture and a joint message from the Federal Minister of Agriculture and myself In the inner document, as well, talking about increasing hail protection coverage for the province and expansion of the Livestock Feed Security Program and, of course, talking about Grant Andrews who holds Contract No. 4 and reminiscing and paying a tribute to a gentleman who has been an active supporter of crop insurance say Day One, holding Crop Insurance Contract No. 4.

Are any of those so politically motivating that would cause any member, especially the Member for Arthur, to raise those kinds of concerns to this committee? Now, Mr. Chairman, the specific information that the honourable member wanted - the highest year of both land lord and operator contracts was in the crop year of '77-78, during the drought year, of 18,000. Our staff are projecting an amount of contracts of approximately 14,700 which would be the highest amount for any of the last six years. We would exceed the number of contracts of any of the last six years .

But what is more significant than strictly numbers, Mr. Chairman, is the amount of insurance coverage purchased by the farmers of Manitoba as I had indicated earlier in my remarks. This year we have $430 million of coverage purcha sed by farmers to date - or thereabouts - as compared to $355 million last year, a significant increase In the dollar coverage. That is what is basically significant; the higher doll ar, the amount of dollar coverage is really the significant amount. Mr.

Chairman, when you compare that to the increase in pre miums, it's roughly $24 coverage for each additional dollar of cost to the farmers. I think that's what we looked at because we were Jooking at about $2.5 million of additional premiums on $60 million of increased coverage, which basically left it - I want to get the exact figure for the honourable member so I just want to make sure that the figutes that I put on the record are accurate. Mr. Chairman, just to make sure that I make the point.

The figure on increased premiums I did not have but, as I indicated, the significant amount is the change in dollar coverage as Insured by farmers Increasing from 355 million for 1984 to $430 million for 1985 at the present time. That is the significance in terms of the amount of coverage purchased by farmers. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister likes to use ballpark figures.

I'm aware that he and his manager have been in communication with a farmer who indicated that for the same kind of coverage that he had last year on the basic wheat crop, that he had somewhat of a 100-and-some percent Increase in his premium and a very small percentage In his coverage. I make no bones about who it is, it's Glen Find lay who is a candidate for our party in the upcoming election, who wrote letters publicly to the newspapers and made no bones about what his increased costs were. In opposition to his coverage, it was a substantial increase. HON. B. URUSKI: What were his benefits? MR. J.

DOWNEY: Well, his benefits did not go up in relationship to what the costs of buying the insurance were. HON. B. URUSKI: Jim, check your figures again. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I want to as well point out, when we're talking of total numbers, if we did have 18,000 farmers insured and the Minister made reference to 18,000 contract holders. I think that's a pretty good indication of the nu mbers of farmers who have traditionally supported it. He made a lot Of to do earlier about 1,360 additional farmers being participants.

I'm pleased that they are participating in it because I think it's a good opportunity to provide protection. He made reference to the fact that all farmers wt.b were buying crop insurance paid an 11 percent surcharge for the continuation of long-term premium discounts. Is there a decrease in those people who want to now buy insurance because of the Ministerial change, because of the government's change? Is the premium reduced by 11 percent because of his change? He made a lot of to do about the fact that they were carrying the reduced premiums because of long-term participation.

Is there a reduction in the premiums for new participants 2163

TUeaday, 21 May, 1985 because of the change that the Minister has made? I think it would be straightforward that would be the case. He wants to make a lot of to do about it. Is there, in fact, a reduction now for new participants of 11 percent? A MEMBER: I think you got him, Jim. MR. J. DOWNEY: I think I got him again. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'll answer the first part of the qujilstion in this way. Where he left the allegation on ttJe record in terms of what one's coverage would be and the analogy would be very similar to this because I believe the analogy that was used by Mr.

Findlay was at ,.,e 50 percent - so he was even lower than, he had the 50 percent. - (I nterjection) - I'll use the 60 percent which would be a higher coverage that you would receive. In fact, I'll be more conservative in my analysis than what the member would have because the benefits could have been far less than what I will show here at the 50 percent range. I want to tell the honourable member that before I have the figures and the program on the 11 percent, the program does not cancel out the discounts in existence so that those farmers who have accumulated the dis counts will conti nue to do so.

The whole discounting process, I should mention, did not totally recognize good management. lt recognized basically what, thank goodness, none of us have control over. it recognized being able to crop in an area that generally has favourable weather. As a result, few claims arise. But getting back to the coverage level, Mr.

Chairman, in 1984 under the old program on wheat, 300 acres of wheat in the most common soil classification, C, the premiums and coverage level of 18.3 bushels of coverage at 60 percent, $4.08-a-bushel, if there had been a crop production of 16 bushels, a yield of 16 bushels -per-acre, there would have been under the old program a benefit paid to the farmer of $2,815.20. Under the 1985 program, the coverage rose from 18.3 bushels to 22. 1 bushels.

Had the same dollar per bushel, $4.08, that I quoted earlier been In place under the new program, the benefit package on a 16-bushel yield would have risen $7,466.40, Mr. Chairman, more than double, almost two-and-a-half times the benefits that a farmer would receive under the new program even though his premium may have risen close to 100 percent. If he was at the 50 percent bracket, his premiums may have risen by 100 percent. The benefit on that kind of a crL'iiP were more than two-and-a-half times.

Of course, as the yield goes higher, at the 20-bushel range, of course, under the old program, there was no coverage because it exceeded the 18-bushel coverage level. Undelt the new program, there still would have been a $5,000 benefit which would be 5,000 times as much as there was under the old program, Mr. Chairman. You know, I think Mr. Findlay - I have to say this in all fairness - an educated man that he is, really should have known better, unle ss he was being a bit mischievous.

He, being a gradua te of the University of Manitoba, would know if you decided to put forward a case very selectively, would have been able to put forward very clearly the greatest disparity as one could get. What he failed to remember was that only 5 percent of Manitoba farmers are insured or have been insured at the 50 percent level, the level with the greatest premium disparity that there is. But what he failed to also put forward is the side of the equation that says, what is the benefit side of the program.

What do you receive in terms of that additional coverage in terms of dollar amount should you have a crop loss? That's what he didn't put on. it's unfortunate, Mr.

Chairman, because he may have dissuaded some farmers from, in fact, who may have just looked at the paper and said hey maybe this thing is just out of my league and I may want protection, but I'm not going to get it because if this guy who is a gradua te of a learned institution can quote these kind of numbers, maybe this program is not for me. lt would be very unfortunate if there would be a number of farmers in that part of the province who would not have purchased coverage based on the reading of Glen Findlay's assessment.

What farmers hopefully would have done, they would have said hey I'll check for myself, I'm not buying everything that this guy says. I will go to my agent and see really what the story is. Certainly, the numbers of clients is very encouraging. I want to be very clear on the number of clients that the corporation has just so it's clear for the record, Mr. Chairman. In '77-78 was the high point of 18,016 contracts. Mr. Chairman, what happened in '78-79 when we dropped to 15,950? Then, Mr. Chairman, what happened in'79 and'8 0? We dropped to 14,275. Who was the Minister then? ln'80-81 we went down again to 14,176.

Then we started climbing back up, Mr. Chairman. We went in'8 1-82 14,633. Then we dropped back down again in'8 1-82 14,087, and'83-84 was our low point in terms of - (Interjection) - thirteen thousand, eight hundred and ... - (Interjection) - eighteen thirty-seven. Yes, Mr. Chairman, there is no doubt that there has been a reduction. I have to say this, we were very concerned and I was very con cerned about implementing the type and the magnititude of changes that we have implemented in the program this year. They were forward looking, they were innovative and they recognized the need for change, Mr.

Chairman, and while grain farmers have been going through difficult times, I'm very pleased that the response from the farm community across this province has been as good as this in spite of the difficult times that farmers are going through. To make a change - there have been increases In premiums, there is no doubt about it, the premiums have increased. In some cases, depending where you were at in terms of coverage, in terms of dollars per bushel, they would have been fairly sizable premium increases if you went from the lowest point, as Glen Findlay tried to point out in his

article and went to the highest point in coverage, there would have been dr amatic increa ses in prem iums. We were concerned about that. Certainly, the number of new contracts show that the changes that we have made have been and are being well accepted by the farmers. We haven't gone all the way, I admit. We'd have liked to see more innovative chang es moving towards individuali zed coverage and the like but, certainly, those have to be negotiated with the Federal Government and we'll be 2164

Tuesday , 21 May, 1985 pursuing those negotiations in the months and years ahead. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I find it interesting that the Minister of Agriculture has some criticisms of a participant in crop insurance for not fully assessing the program and the Information. How could he have done that, Mr. Chairman, when the manager of the Crop Insurance Corporation did not forward all the information for him to make his assessment as to where it's at. I'll quote from a letter that Mr. Findlay has sent to Mr. Ron Dalgleish, general manager, and I'll make some reference to the letter that was sent to him.

The criticism shouldn't be going to Glen Findlay. lt should be going to the Crop Insurance for not sending out the accurate picture and the actual facts of what's taken place. I will quote the letter, Mr. Chairman, because I think it's important for the record. This is "Mr. Ron Dalgleish, General Manager, Manitoba Crop Insurance, January 31, 1985, Shoal Lake. Thank you for your response to my letter on crop insurance premium increase.

The information you suppl ied on a dol lar pay-out comparisons between 1984 and 1985 for partial losses is very important additional information that can be used to assess the value of paying the much higher premiums In 1985." So, in other words, they'v e sent out. They weren't sending out the total picture or the total story of what was actually taking place. This information was not sent out to each policy holder with the confirmation of insurance and notice of premium increase. So, they weren't given all the information from the Cr op Insur ance.

So I think it's the department that deserves criticism; not the individual customer who's trying to make his assessments as to where he or she are at in their upcoming changes. Nor was it mentioned by agent, nor included in the information my agent sent to me after I talked to him after changes on Jan uary 18 and 21. (Yes, I did discuss with my agent.) Nor is it detailed in any substantive way in the Crop Insurance News of February 1985. So the Crop Insurance Corporation were not giving the total picture as to where they stood with the changes.

Farmers can only assess the value of crop insura nce and the impact of 1985 premiums on their operations when they are suppl ied with all the Information on coverage and premiums." And here's what his request is, "And I urge you to immediately mail to each contract holder in Manitoba all the information on partial-loss coverage for each dollar level of coverage, for each crop they insure, together with the corresponding premiums." That's dated Janu ary 31. I understand that through that encouragement, it took place.

So the Minister has no right to criticize a contract holder, who has made an assessment on the information that he had available, but should be criticizing his department on the operations of his crop insurance for not totally explaining to the public and those people who are paying the bill where they stood. So I want that to be clear on the record. Again another example to the public of Manitoba how this Minister isn't able to manage the Department of Agriculture and the affairs of the people of Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, it's just another example of the many, many concerns that each and every Manitoban has.

I've made reference again to the 11 percent increase, or the 11 percent surcharge, that each contract holder has to pay for the reduction In long-term premium benefits. The Minister hasn't told us that they're now going to have 11 percent less premium to pay. Are they going to see a lower premium; they aren't, because in fact, they're now out. Where does the 11 percent be eaten up?

He makes a lot to do about changes that he and his government are making; that there's an :11 percent surcharge on each contract holder , new participant, that that's being used to carry or give a reduction to long-term program participants who like Grant Andrews and Coul ter, who I complimented many times for being a long -term participant In crop insurance, and by the way just for to correct the record, Grant Andrews' name is not mentioned i� this document that I can find - (Interjection) - well, he makes reference to the other one. I'm saying that this was a specific one for the lnterlake. Mr.

Chairman, I want to know where the 11 percent of the premium is now being saved by the new participant? He made a lot of to-do that If a new participant wanted to sign up in crop insurance, they would have an 11 percent saving. Is there an 11 percent saving by new participants at this particular time in Manitoba crop insurance and where is it? HON. B. URUSKI: The honourable member talked about and I want make sure that the honourable member knows and he raises the point as to why wouldn't crop Insurance put all the figures in the paper and do all the information based on Mr. Findlay's assessment. Mr.

Chairman, there is a reason why we didn't go to press and try and print out payouts and give that analysis in the newspaper. MR. J. DOWNEY: You've got a new Communications Offi cer. You hired a new polit ical hack for a Communications Officer. You should give her something to do. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I know that the honourable member has a particular bent. If he'd listen, maybe he would learn something in this whole process, because he hasn't, obviously, learned very much up until this point.

The reason that we didn't show any payouts in the press because the situation of payouts is different in different areas and really would have been confusing. Mr. Chairman, our own agents asked us not to do any actual dollar communication in the press, because you may have a paper or a press covering onal area which straddles two different risk areas and the situation would be completely different. In all the communication that the corporation has provided to farmers, it said that farmers are encouraged to meet with theiP local crop insurance agent for details on how the changes will affect them.

That was the message going out day in and day out. Mr. Chairman, and I'm pleased, although maybe Mr. Findla y didn't want to go and meet with his agent, obviously 10,300 farmers did meet with their agents to discuss how the changes impacted on them. Maybe the honourable member didn't know that, so I'll provide that information for him. 2165

Tueeda y, 21 Ma� 1985 Mr. Chairman, we cou ld have done that in the lnterlake because the communication that we did there went only to risk area 15 farmers and it is our intention that with specific changes in specific risk areas, to use this type of communication directly for the farmers in the area that they are affected.

With resp ect to the 11 percent surcharge, the honourable member should know that with the changes in the program there have been premium increases and there have been premium changes so that the 11 percent reduction has been subsumed in the new premium strucf+Jre, but it hasn't been su bsumed totally.

There still is about a 5 percent surcharge in the present program, because there are still a number of farmers who are receiving the maximum 50 percent discount and will still b�eceiving that 50 percent discount and until that discount is moved away, that surcharge still will be there until there are claims that will actually reduce that discount. That will be the only time. it may take a year, it make two years . it really depends on how many are removed from that 50 percent discount downwards to the 25 percent maximum that is now on the program. That's how it will be balanced off.

Right now, it's been reduced by about 6 percent and it's been subsumed within the present