LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Ha rry E. Gr aham (Bi rtle­ Russ ell): Pres enting Pet it ions ... Reading and Recei ving Petitions ... PRES ENTING REP ORTS BY STANDING AND SPEC IAL COMMIT TEES MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nou rable Mem ber for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Committe e of Supply has considered certain resolutions, dir ects me to report progress, and asks leave to sit again. 1 move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Dau phin, report of committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATE ME NTS AND TABLING OF REP ORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MER CIER (Osborne): Mr . Speaker, I have a brief statement. I wish to anno u nce the appointment of Mr. Marshall E. Rothstein, Q.C., of the law firm of Aikins, MacAulay, to inquire into the matter of compulsory retirement in Ma nitoba. The terms of reference requir e Mr. Rothstein to consider the advisability or inadvisability of revising The Huma n Rights Act and/ or related legislation. Further, the inquiry has been asked to evaluate, study and report on the following with respect to this issue: 1.

Differences between the public and private sector and within the pub lic sector; 2. Trends in legislation of other jurisdictions; 3. Existing research and reports; 4. The relevance of pension plans and social security. The inquiry has been asked to hold public hearings and make findings and recom mendations consistent with the public interest and the general welfare of the people of Ma ni toba, having a regard to public attitudes, indus try concerns and employee concerns, ad minis trativ e requirements and changing social values and priorities.

I note that the Human Rights Commission had a special meeti ng with respect to this mat ter on Febru ary 20, 198 1 and re com mended the following: The Manitoba Human Rights Commission affirms its position that the current provisions of The Human Rights Act do extend protection to those individuals who are mandatorily retired because of age and further th at such protection should be unaltered.

The Commission also suggests that in view of the many implic ations and ramificat ions att ending the le gislation in recent jud icial and tribunal decisions in Manitoba, the Attorney-General may wish to consider the appointment of a body to study the ma tter and make appr opriate rec ommendations. I would add that Mr. Rothstein has served on a Board of Adjudication as provided in The Human Rights Act with respect to several matters relating to the issue of mandatory retirement.

These boards of adjudication, including the matter of Au brey Newport versus the Province of Manitoba, Finlayson versus the Winnip eg Police Department et al, and Bedrich versus the City of Winnip eg have dealt primarily with statutory

interpretation of existing legislation. With this background, together with the mandate of this inquiry, Mr. Rothstein is well equipped to review this issue in broad terms and ret urn specific rec ommendations on this important subject. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHE RNIACK: Mr . Speaker, I want to thank the Honourable Mi nister for the information he's given to us. May I say that although I don't kno w Mr. Marshall Rothst ein, he come s well re commended as a la wyer and as a person interested in matters of this nature.

However, I would regret that the Mi nister would no t broaden the appointment to include one or two other people not in the legal side, but more involved in social aspects and not in any way do I want to derogate from Mr. Rothstei n's objectivity. Nevertheless, I think input could be improved. As to the terms of reference, I am amused, Mr. Speaker, to note that the question of advisability or inadvisability of revising The Human Rights Act and/ or relate d le gislation is th e term of reference,

whereas I would have thought that it might well have been The Civil Service Act or The Emp loyment Standards Act and related legislation. I suggest that this may be an ind ication of a bias, it may be. Also, the public hearings and the findings that are being requested do not indi cate the rights of the in dividual as being somet hing that should be reported on, but rather the emp loyer-employee, and there can be contradictory interests on behalf of employees. Nevertheless, it is a good move that this will be studied, the report will, I am sure, be made available to the people of Manitoba through the Legislature.

I assume that this takes the place of the studies which the Min ister of Labour said he was conducting. He said that he and his staff were looking into it, and I'm wondering if, in due course during the Question Peri od, the Mi nis ter of Labour would indi cate whether or not he wiil be conducting an independent study or will assign his staff to assist Mr . Rothstein in this work. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Intr oduction of Bills . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: At this time I would like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery where we have 15 students of Grade 4, 5 and 6 standing 1583

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 from La Salle School under the dir ection of Mrs. Comeau. This school is in the constit uency of the Honourable Minister of Government Services. We also have 90 students of Grade 11 standing from West Kildonan School under the di rection of Mr. Ken Butler. This school is in the constituenc y of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afte rnoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Hydro.

Can the Minister assure us that the Mandan Line that is presently being planned by Manitoba Hydro will continue, and there are no plans under way to eithe r defer its construction or to cancel its construction? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, the negotiations have been continuing with the utilities in the United States, Nebraska Power Public District, with regards to the Mandan Line. There has been some ind ication from the American partner in this of some revision of the time

schedule and probably some necessity to review that

schedule from both sides. I think that as much as the line is desirable from both the point of view of Manitob a and Nebraska from a longer term point of view, that it would not be surprising to see a fairly lengthy delay caused by the conditions that currently appear to exist in the United States. From Manitoba's point of view, we would like to see the line progress as soon as possi ble and par ticularly in our long -term interests, because it ties in well with the studies that we have been doing with regards to the Western Power Grid. But I think that any further questions, Mr.

Speaker, might be more properly add ressed to the Manitoba Hydro officials when they appear before the Public Utilities Comm ittee. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, then further to the Minister, can the Minister advise, in view of the fact that there appears that th ere may be a delay in respect to the negotiations pertai ning to the Mandan Line, if he can advise whether or not any firm contracts are presently being negotiated for non­ interruptible Hydro pertai ning to the sale of same to any of the util ity com panie s in the State of Minnesota? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, it's quite possible that there are dis cussions going on in that regard, but they would be associated with the existing tie-in rather than a new line, if that were the case. Again, I think that perhaps it might be appropriate to di rect that question in detail to the Hydro officials when they are before the commit tee.

There are other discussions going on in the Un ited States with regards to di versity exchanges, firm power sales, and so on, of an ongoing natur e, but I think that the Leader of the Opposition's questions was probably dir ected more towards a sale that might occur over an existing line such as the one connecting to Minneapolis. MR. PAWLEY: A further supplementary: Can the Minister advise whether or not ther e have been any firm sales contracted with any of the utilities in the State of Minnesota during the past three years? MR.

CRAIK: There has been one connection with a very very small community that's landlocked inside the Province of Manitoba, which is on the shores of Lake of the Woods, down in the southeast corner of the province, but that's the only one I'm aware of. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Education.

In view of the resolution of the School Division of Transcona-Springfield relative to what they foresee as problems by virtue of the elimination of the system for trying to do equity to all Winnipeg taxpayers relative to the payment of school divisions, does the Minister intend to review and esranscona­ Springfield School Division on Monday next and at that time will be closely examining the problems that they see in the program that we have just brought in in the province. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Sp eaker, then can I take from the Hono urable Minister that th e most recent announcement that he made on the subject, with respect to the elimination of the Greater Winnipeg levy, has been the only step thus far taken by the government or contempla ted by the government with respect to seeing to it that all citizens in Greater Winnipeg have some fairness with regard to the amount of taxes that go to education costs; that that is the only step that has thus far been taken? MR. COSENS: On the contrary, Mr.

Speaker, there have been several steps taken, and I would suggest that the new Educational Su pport Program is a much fairer and more equitable way of taxing for school purposes than the system that did exist. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, then may I take it then that the complaints of Springfield-Transcona and the complaints th at are coming from other school divisions within Greater Winnipeg, are complaints which are unjustified and that the present system is satisfactory? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, the only complaints that I have heard to this point have emanated from Transcona. I have not heard any others from other di visions. I know of one urban di vision th at announced its school mill rate, and I believe it amounts to a reduction of some $40 for every homeowner in that particular urban school division; homeowners with an assessment, I understand, of $7,000.00. So when the honourable memb er suggests that there are a number of divisions that find themselves in difficulty with this, then I think he is expanding somewhat on the situation. 1584

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 We realize that certainly Transcona would have some di fficulty. They were one of th e chie f benefi ciarie s un der the Gr eater Winnip eg Equalization Tax, and realize that we made some provision in the plan to take that into consideration. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Brandon East . MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to add ress a question to the Minister of Economic Development.

In exa mining the latest estima tes available from the Conference Board in Canada, it is revealed that during the past full thr ee years of Conservative government, Manitoba's real economic growth rate was virtually zero. Will the Minister of Economic Development now confirm that the government's economic policy ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, orde r please. Questions of confirmation do not really contribute to the qu estion and answer peri od. Does the Honourable Member have another question? MR.

EVANS: I would like to ask another question then of the Minister of Economic Development, who I know, has an excellent staff who is briefing him, and I know therefore, an excellent staff that was there when I was Minister, incidentally, Mr. Speaker. Since Manitoba was the only province with zero growth since the year 19 77, no other province in Canada showed zero growth, is the Minister now prepared to outline a new economic thrust to get this province moving again? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr.

Sp eaker, the figure that the member quotes from the Co nference Board , my exc ellent staff, th at the member refers to, on working with Statistics Canada can find no basis for that figure from the Conference Board. Statistics Canada have also examined it and we have been working with them.

When we have the third lowest unemployment in Canada, when our shipments and exports are up, our trade is up about 58 percent over the last three years, our investment in manufacturing is up 28 percent over last year; now any economist that has his salt at all, would exam ine those figures very carefully, which is what my staff are doing with the Minister of Finance's staff, and I might say the statistics from Federal Finance are proving to be much more reliable when we examine them, and there is no basis for that figure from the Conference Board according to my staff. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Brandon East with a final supplementary. MR. EVANS: Perhaps, Mr. Sp eaker, I should address this to the former Minister of Finance, but he's not here. I could add ress it to the present Minister of Finance or even the Minister of Economic Development. Is it not correct that these figures of zero growth which I am referring to are the very same kind of figures, from the very same source that was the key portion of the Budget Addr ess of 19 80? lt was good enough for the Budget Address of 19 80, 1585 it's bloody well good enough now, with that zero growth. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, the Member for Brandon East of course likes to select th ose statistics tha t are most favourable to his case, and I understand why he would do that, Mr. Speaker, because he is intent on making things look extremely negative. I think it should be pointed out to the Member for Brandon East as to how those Conference Board figures are calculated and what the record of the Conference Board has been on the basis of their own evaluation, and I think for the past year, perhaps even for the past three years, Mr.

Speaker, I think they've ranked No. 20 out of 20 firms that made projections. So their track record, by their own admission, has not been that good. Plus, Mr. Speaker, one has to understand how those calculations are made, that they calculate figures for the entire country and then apportion them to di fferent provinces, rather than calculate on the basis of what is happening in different provinces and assemble them to get a figure at the national level. So there is a considerable amount of room for error, Mr.

Speaker, and one has to be very careful in not being selective in the statistics and in using them over a period of time when one deals with trends rather than the short term, month by month figures. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister, in view of his discourse he just provided to us in which he ind icated that Conference Board figures were 20th by way of rating, he claimed that they were very very poor insofar as forecasts, can the Minister advise why the First Minister and why his predecessor, the Minister of Finance, at various times used Conference Board figures repeatedly in order to establish forecasts that were attractive to them at particular times, namely during the years 19 79-80, and during the Budget Address? MR. RANSOM: We have used Conference Board statistics of course.

We have used a range of statistics. I think the honourable members will find that we have always been cautious to point out that such figu res are only estima tes, th ey are not necessarily - their accura cy is open to a wide degree of latitude, we use information from different sources, Mr. Speaker, and always caution on using percentages, especially using percentages in the fashion that the Hon.ourable Member for Brandon East.

And I should think we've demonstrated in the last day or two, when we talk about 485 percent increases in ho using, month over month , how statistics can lead one to false conclusions, Mr. Speaker. I think they will find that we have always been careful in the use of them. I think we should have arrived at the point by now, Mr. Speaker, where the Member for Brandon East would stop trying to use statistics in a misleading fashion and get down to talking about the kinds of policies that will do something for the economy of

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 this province. Let us hear what kind of policies the Member for Brandon East espouses. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, further to the Minister of Finance, pursuant to the remarks which he has just provided to us, would the Minister of Finance acknowledge that indeed insofar as the use of the figures have been concerned from The Conference Board, there has been error. The error has always been on the side of the Conference Board of Canada being too generous in their forecasts and secondly to the Minister of Finance, can he acnknowledge, acknowledge, Mr.

Speaker, acknowledge that when he speaks of selectivity, that if there has been any grou p of indi vidu als that have exercis ed the maximum in selectivity, insofar as the utilization of Slat Canada figures, Conference Board figures, that selectivity has overwhelmingly, Mr. Sp eaker, come from the First Minister and from the Minister of Finance du ring the past thr ee years of this Conservative adminis tration? MR. RANSOM: No on both counts, Mr. Speaker. The answer is no to both questions, Mr. Speaker. I have indeed selected stat istics in response to the Member for Brandon East. As an example, Mr.

Speaker, on one occasion when speaking to the Un iversity of Winnipeg, I was able to take the exact statistics that the Member for Brandon East used and presented in his so-called economic analysis of what was happe ning in this provinc e and demonstrate on the same statistics that he used to show an entirely different picture, to put an entirely di fferent

interpretation on it, Mr. Speaker, to the satisfaction of most of the people attending there, until we finally got to the point in saying, well you've just demons trated that you can interpret statistics in di fferent ways, now what are you going to do, I said precisely. That's the issue, Mr. Speaker, and the Member for Brandon East - I mu st commend him, Mr. Speaker - he is somewhat of an expert at using stat istics to present a dis torted picture. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition with a final supplementary. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister refers to the me eting which he had at the Univ ersity of Winnip eg with st ud ents , in which the Minister ind icates he defended his position vis-a-vis the statistics that were presented to us by the Member for Brandon East. Can the Minister acknowledge that indeed the reports from that meeting are to the effect tha t the Minister spent mos t of his time quibbling over statistics, being on the defensive and ended up admitting to the student audience, well, we have done a few good things. MR.

RANSOM: We admit to having done a few good things for this province, contrary to what the honourable members opposite admit to. They would never admit to us having done anything for this province that was worthwhile. The Leader of the Opposition talks about quibbling over statis tics. As long as they present their statistics in a misleading fashion, and no one questions them, that's fine. When the stat istics are challenged and refuted, that's quibbling. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. 1586 MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I wish to di rect this question to the Minister of Agriculture.

My question, Mr. Speaker, arises out of a pamphlet, namely a report from the Legislature put out by the NDP Party, signed by the Leader of the Opposition, sent to many of my constituents in Rock Lake. Mr. Speaker, in this report the headline Rural Outlook is very oblique. And to the Minister, it states, "Rural Manitoba is the province's economic and social backbone. lt has been neglected by a Lyon government which does little about inter est rates. " Mr.

Speaker, I would like the Minister of Agricu lture, if he could ind icate and inform the members of this Hou se, and particularly those people and particularly farmers, who received this brochure in the constituency of Rock Lake, as to just what is being done in way of int erest rates through MACC and other sources. I wonder if the Minister of Agricu lture could give some information on this particular subject. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, I realize that the Question Period has a certain time limit and maybe I could refer to the member that we'd be able to debate this for the rest of the Session, the good things that have taken place in rural Manitoba over the past three years. Firs t though, Mr. Sp eaker, if the memb er is referring to the document of untruths put out by the newly dimis hed party of Manitoba, I read it as well, and 1 don't believe that what they have indicated there is true at all.

We've removed the state farm program that was competition to the young farmer�, replacing it with the Manitoba Agncu lture Cred1t Corporation dir ect lending program, to assist farmers with lower inter est rates. As well, Mr. Speaker, some $2 million to lease hopper cars to help move the grain out of Western Canada; several programs, Mr. Speaker, that have helped the farm communities. MR. SPEAKER: Or der pleas e. The Ho nourable Member for Rock Lake with a supplementary. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Sp eaker, I know the honourable members opposite are not inter ested in listening to the answer from the Minister of Agriculture but I have a supplementary. And, Mr. Speaker, in this document it states also that the l�ck of co-operative drou gh t relief in the cost pnce squeeze on farmers. I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture could explain very briefly by the way of informing honourable members opposite and to th _e people of Manitoba, just what was done by th1s government in regard to relief of the dr ough t situation last summer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for lnkster. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, it's surely a question as to what the government has done in a particular area of program ming is not an appropria te question for the Order Paper. And I would respectfully request, Mr. Speaker, that despite the levity in the Chamb er, that we resume our business and that the question be declared out of order.

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The point raised by the Honourable Member for lnkster is well taken. Does the honourable member have a further question? MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise on the point of order. You know, Mr. Speaker, I think that my questions are legitima te, number one. Secondly, why I say that, Mr. Speaker, when a document of this kind ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The point raised by the Honourable Member for lnkster was well taken.

I hope that members will choose their questions wisely to seek information and I would hope that the dialogue, in fact the debate, almost that is being carried on, is one that is comple tely unnecessary at this time and the Question Period should be used to seek information from the Treasury Branch. Does the Ho nour able Member have a final supplementary question? MR. EINARSON: No, Mr. Speaker, if I may rise on - are you ruling on the point of order? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased that the Minister of Agricultur e is prepared to answer a lot of questions. Is the Minister of Agricult ur e toda y prepared to enu ncia te some program of assisting the hog producers of Manitoba, who he encouraged over the last two or thr ee years to increase their production, because he was going to be able to solve their problems by marketing strategy of the government of Manitoba? Now that the se producers are going broke, is he going to assist them, Mr. Sp eaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Ob viously mem bers do not listen very well.

The honourable member is debating rather than asking a question. Would the honourable member care to ask his question? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I specifically asked the Minister of Agriculture, is he prepared to make an announcement with respect to the hog industry in the Pr ovince of Manitoba, which has been in an desperate situation for a year-and-a-half. They are on the verge of bankruptcy and many producers have gone bankrupt. Is he prepared to help them? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I indicated yesterday to the member that I was prepared to meet with the hog producers, and I am not prepared today to make an announcement on the program. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Sp eaker, the Minister of Agriculture has been prepared and has been meeting with hog producers over the last year. Mr. Speaker, was it not his department who had ind icated to the hog producers . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. If the honourable member has a question, he may ask a supplementary question now. 1587 MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, did the Minister of Agricultu re of this province, through his staff, ind icate to the hog producers that Manitoba would be assist ing those hog producers in a time of hard­ times as they have faced over the last year, did his department not indicate that they would assist them? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My que stion, in the absence of the Premier, is addr essed to the Honourable Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if he would tell us whether the national conference that was proposed on private pension funds is still scheduled for the end of March. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): I believe it is, Mr. Sp eaker, unless the mem ber has some information from her Federal- Lib eral counterparts, which I am not aware of, but the last I heard, which was a day or two ago, that conference was still on. MS. WESTBURY: The only information I have is from the Federal Hansard, Mr. Sp eaker, in which questions were asked and answered a couple of weeks ago, and at that time . . . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. If the honourable member has a supplementary question she may proceed. MS. WESTBURY: I was prefacing my question with a reply to the Minister's ques tion. Mr. Speaker, would the Minister tell the House whether there has yet been appointed, by the Premier of Manitoba, a representative of the Cabinet specifically responsible for pension reform? In view of the fact that in the Federal Ha nsard a statement was made to the effect MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Orders of the Day . . . The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Speaker, was my question out of order as to whether a Minister has yet been appointed? MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member has a suppleme ntary qu estion she ma y ask it. (Interje ct ion)- If the honourable member has a further supplementary question she may ask it. MS. WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, will some body please tell me who will be represe nting the government at the National Conference on Private Pension Reform, and whether in fact . . . MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Sp eaker, th ere is a Comm ittee of Cabinet dealing with that situation and dealing with the preparation for the Conference, that we still believe is scheduled for the end of March.

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. I would like to know what act ion the government will be taking to deal with Canad a"s five largest banks' recent announcement that they have made record profits on the di fference between their borrowing and lending rates; what action the government contempla tes in this regard, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Finance. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Spe aker, I know th at the honourabl e mem ber is concerned, as are many people concerned, with the impact of int erest rates on people in our province, but he should realize that the question of jurisdiction over banks is not one that falls to the province. MR. CORRIN: In that case, Mr.

Speaker, accepting that , I would ask the Minister whether this government will press the Federal Government to enquire into the actions of the banks and other provincial lending institutions in this field, who may be profiting by the now record spread between their prime lending rate and the rate at which they lend money out to consumers, and the moneys of course that they pay on personal savings accounts? Is the Minister willing to make a commitment to ask the Federal Government to take some action? MR. RANSOM: Indeed, Mr.

Speaker, I have already initiated action to try and get a better appreciation or understanding of what has taken place, because we do have a concern for the impact of the int erest rates, and acknowledging that we have no di rect jurisdictional responsi bili ty, we do have a responsibility to understand the factors that are influencing people in Manitoba, and I have indeed asked for some information in that regard. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Wellington with a final supplementary. MR. CORRIN: Yes, Mr.

Sp eaker, gi ven the government's ideological attachment to its sister government in Britain, the Thatcher Government, will the governme nt press the Canadian Federal Government to impose excess profit taxes as have been impo sed by the Thatcher Government thi s week in Britain? Will they ask for that sort of tax to be im posed on lending institutions in Canada? MR. RANSON: Mr. Speaker, that assumes of course that there are excess pr ofits, and I thin k the honourable member is perhaps ju mping to a conclusion, Mr.

Sp eaker, before th ere is an understanding of what is taking place. it's quite evident from the comments that the Leader of the Opposition is making from his seat that he does not wish to see any sort of investigation. He knows in his mind that the banks are making excess profits, because that is the understan ding that those people have about the way this system operates, Mr. Sp eaker. I am not prepa red to jump to th at conclusion.

I do think that the system should serve the interests of the people of Manitoba and the people of Canada, and th e qu estion that th e Honourable Member for Wellington has raised dra ws attention to a subject of great importance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member with a new question? MR. CORRIN: Yes, Mr. Sp eaker, it's a new question. I haven't asked it before. Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Finance whether he can acknowledge that the current spread between the banks' prime lending rate and interest rates on personal savings accounts, being now reported this week at five full percentage points, is not only double the average, but at a near record high in this particular area of Canadian fina nce? Can he acknowledge that, and would he, on the basis of that acknowledgement, indica te that there is good reason for Canadians and Manitobans to be concerned about this vital issue? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I listened very care fully to the qu estion put forward by the Honourable Member for Wellington, and in fact it was not a question, it was a statement and I would have to rule it out of order. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs whether the th ree levels of gov ernment have finalized plans for the $90 million core area initiative? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: No, Mr. Speaker, we did meet, I did meet with Mayor Norrie and the Federal Minister last Friday morning.

Since then we agreed, because of the requirements of Mr. Axworthy and the Mayor, to meet in Ottawa on Monday for a full day to review the proposals for spending within the core area init iative and a dra ft agreement, and I hope that that will be the final meeting that will be required of myself and the Mayor and the Federal Minister to put the agreement into final form. MR.

DOERN: Could the Minister ind icate, in view of the Mayor's remarks that he's looking for the biggest bang for the buck, is the list of major capital works going to include any provincial projects, or will there be an additional comp lementary list of provincial projects in addition to the $90 million that is going to be expended? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, there will be additional compleme ntary spending by all th ree levels of government. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could ind icate whether one of the projects being considered is a replacement for the Amy Street Steam Plant with a newer technology? MR. MERCIER: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Transcona. 1588

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is di rected to the Minister of Education, and it follows up on his previous answers regard ing the Greater Winnip eg education levy. Does the Minister of Education believe that the people of Transcona should pay for downto wn muni cip al services like those associated with Trizec and the underground concourse at the corner of Portage and Main, while at the same time being deprived of getting access to any tax revenue generated by downtown projects like Trizec or the Ric hardson Building, or the Bank of Nova Scotia Building? MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Minister of Education. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, if the honourabl e member wants to dis cuss municipal affairs, he might add ress the Minister in charge of Municipal Affairs. If he wants to dis cuss education taxes, that's a di fferent matter. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Sp eaker, obviously th e Minister of Education does not understand the relationship between school taxes and mun icipal taxes with respect to the Greater Winnipeg education levy.

I'd like to ask him if he has done any homework in that respect; if he has looked into the history of the Greater Winnip eg educa tion levy; if he can ind icate that he has done his homework by ind icating that the Greater Winnipeg equalization levy was set up as a means of providing comp ensation to sub urban taxpayers who are paying extra for downtown municipal services, and as a result they were being given access to downtown assessment for school purposes? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. May I point out that the Question Period is a time for seeking information, not for making statements.

The honourable member is seeking information. He may ask his question. MR. PARASIUK: I'd like to ask if the Minister of Education has done his homework and determined the original basis of the Greater Winnipeg education levy, why it was established; can he tell us that, it's a very simple question, Mr. Speaker? MR. COSENS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a considerable amount of it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR.

PARASIUK: Yes, then if the Minister has done his homework in this area, can he ind icate whether in fact it was not the basis that the Greater Winnipeg edu cation levy was set up to provide compensation for suburban taxpayers who were providing ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Again, I must say the honourable member is debating rather than seeking informa tion. If the honourable mem ber has a question to seek information, he may proceed. MR.

PARASIUK: Yes, I would like to ask the Minister if he can ind icate whether in fact the Greater Winnipeg equalization levy, and he can do 1589 this by historical fact, it requires no debate on our part, my part or his part, can he ind icate whether in fact governme nt statements at the time would ind icate whether the Greater Winnipeg equalization levy was set up as compensation for subu rban taxpayers, who were paying extra for muni cipal services under Unicity, to get access to downtown assessment for purposes of school taxes?

Can he indicate whether in fact that is the historical basis of the Greater Winnipeg education levy, which has now been cancelled? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, that may well have been the objective. However, the result was far from that and it caused all sorts of inequities in the metro area. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIAC K: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to addr ess the Minister of Finance, who obviously speaks for those people in stating that he is not satisfied or does not know whether or not there are excess profits ind icated in the bank statements recently announced, whether, since he has instructed that a study be made, whether he's prepared to ensure that the study be completed very quickly and present the full information derived from that study to this House during his Estim ates at the latest? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, it' s not my intention to conduct an inquiry on the scale that the Member for St. Johns obviously refers to. There are other means of making inquiries within one's department and without the department that does not necessarily involve the production of a report that would be tabled in the Legislature. MR. CHERNIAC K: Mr.

Sp eaker, in view of the statement by the Minister today ind icating that he has concerns regard ing the profits made by the banks, but refuses to consider them excess profits, is he prepared to inform us as to the result of whatever investigation, no matter how superficial it is, that he is making? MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, it goes without saying that having notified the members opposite that I did have concern and was prepared to make inquiries to satisfy myself as to what was going on and how the problem was being addressed, follows that I would be quite prepared subsequently to respond to that.

I also have some faith, if I can use that term, that the Federal Government will very likely be looking at this situation them selves, given the past record .of studies and investigations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns with a final supplementa ry. MR. CHERNIAC K: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Honourable Minister of Finance, who has ind icated faith in the Federal Gov ernment' s concern and viewing of this problem, whether he is hi mself carrying on any studies of any kind, superficial,

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 second-hand whatever, which he will be able to report to us at least or at the latest during his Esti mates. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I can't assure the Honourable Member that it will be ready during my Estimates. My Estimates may very well be before this House rather shortly. I believe we're to follow with Consumer and Corporate Affairs. The honourable members opposite can better say how long that will be. The Member for St. John's has been a Minister of the Crown, Mr.

Speaker, he certainly knows the sort of rela tion sh ip th at can exist, does exis t between a Minister and a Deputy Minister and that questions are asked of staff, responses come back and the questions may lead to further questions, and it doesn't necessarily involve a point where yes, the question has now been answered. The responsibility for the area of control of banking lies with the Federal Government and there will be questions raised and perhaps the response will depend heavily on what we find out from the Federal Government and what the Federal Government's response is. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day.

The time for Question Period has expired. ORDERS OF THE DA V MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Sp eaker, I would like to proceed with Bill 13, then Bill 8, then Bill 27 and then go into Sup ply to deal with Interim Supply. But first, Mr. Speaker, I might for the information of the House, advise the House as to the proposed calling of Commit tees for the next three weeks which I think will pretty well complete the calling of Committees, Mr. Speaker. Next Tuesday, Public Utiliti es Committee at 10:00 a.m. will be March 17 th, to deal with Manitoba Telephone System.

On Thu rsday, March 29th at 10:00 a.m. to deal with Autopac. That would be the Public Utilities Comm ittee and the Public Utilities would meet if necessary on Friday afternoon at 2:00 p.m. to complete consideration of the Manitoba Telephone System or Autopac if they haven't been completed. The following week the Comm ittee on Economic Development Committee will meet on Tuesday, March 24th at 10:00 a.m. and Thursday at 10:00 a.m. if necessary, to consider McKenzie Seeds and ManFor.

On Tuesday March 31s t, and if necessary Thu rsday, April 2nd at 10 :00 a.m. and Friday, April 3rd, at 2:00 p.m. the Public Util ities Commi ttee will meet to consider Manitoba Hydro. Mr. Speaker, could we now proceed with the calling of Bill 13. SECOND READING BILL NO. 13 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE REAL PROPERTY ACT AND THE REGISTRY ACT MR. MERCIER presented Bill No. 13 ,

an Act to amend The Real Property Act and The Registry Act for second read ing. 1590 MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the amendments to The Real Property Act and The Registry Act in this Bill are in the nature of housekeeping amendments, however, Mr. Sp eaker, I think the Ho nourable Member for lnkster will be pleased to note that we have acted on his advice that a more simplified form of mortgage sale advertisement be permitted. Mr.

Sp eaker, he may or may not have received a notice from the Land Titles Office that went out to members of the legal profession late in the month of February which indicates that as a result of a review that we have held a number of changes will be put into place with a review to reducing the cost of advert ising while maintai ning the effectiveness of same. If any members are inter ested in receiving a copy of that notice, Mr. Speaker, I'd be pleased to provide them with it.

For example, the noti ce for prope rties generally and this will cover most properties, will simply require a street add ress and comprise all of the land mentioned in a certificate of title number. In fact, Mr. Speaker, we have also gone further in that subsection 131 of The Real Property Act which now requires the advertisement to be published for three successive weeks is being amended in this Bill to require that there need be only one advertisement in a newspaper.

We have consulted with and acted on advice received from the Real Prop erty subsection of the Manitoba Branch of the Canadian Bar Asso ciation tha t th ree publ ications were excessive. The advice we received was that persons who are interested in these matters will note the first adverti sement and the additional advertisements merely represent an unnecessary cost factor. That is on th e basis too, Mr. Sp eaker, tha t the advertisement would be done sufficiently far enough in advance to give sufficient notice. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are new

definitions in this Bill with respect to Crown Reserves and Pu blic Reserves. The amendments reflect the fact that all inst rum ents pr esented for registration are now assigned a serial number which determines priority of registration. Heretofor priority of registration had been determined by the day, hour, and minute of filing. The use of the serial number permits the use of more than one cash register. These amendments will apply to both The Real Property Act and The Registry Act.

The amendments will disp ense with the requirement that the duplicate of original mortgage be filed and registration of the discharge of the mortgage where the Court orders that the mortgage be dis charged or the Registrar General orders a dis charge of the mortgage. The amendments req uir e all owners of land included in a plan of subdivision to sign the plan unless the Municipal Board otherwise orders. The amendm ents permit assignm ents of caveats, previously ownership of caveat interest may not be tran sferred in a sched ule, is attached to the amendment sett ing out the form of the assignment.

There are amendments to

schedule (

e) which clears up an error in the form. There is a new sched ule (

f) provides a new form for a memorandum of mortgage to conform with more modern methods of mortgage lending. To ensure, Mr. Speaker, I think that there is no confusion, we're not attempting to put into this

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 Legislation the new simplified form of mortgage that the Law Reform Commis sion recommended in their recom mendation, Mr . Speaker, ind icated that they had not examined the full legalities of their form and so that prop osed form is under review. Mr. Speaker, I think I've briefly covered the form of the amendments which as I've indi cated in the beginning were more in the nature of hou sekeeping amendments. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I'm very pleased with the quick response and I don't often have occasion to say this, but I must say that I'm pleased with the quick response that the Atto rney-General has shown with respect to the problem which obviously became a larger problem with the larger numb er of foreclosures, and also, Mr . Speaker, became a human int erest story associated with the closing of the Winnip eg Tribune, because the combination of those things resulted in a windfall profit.

If I may say to the Min ister of Fina nce, maybe the alternative to what the Attor ney-General has done would have been to apply a windfall profit tax on the Winnip eg Free Press in particular with respect to mo rtgage foreclosure advertisements, but seriously speaking I would hope that the Free Press would rather have less revenue and less foreclosures.

But since the foreclosures are obviously going to continue, the Mi nister indicating that the ad will be cut down considerably, and I would like to see a copy of the ad, if he wouldn't mind getting it over to me, and further mo re re ducing the num ber of advertisements will, in my view, result in a saving of considerable expense, which has no prod uctive value. It's all right to expend moneys when you can show that something is coming for it, but I would think that the amount that was being expended for these ads, both in their size and in their num ber, would certainly justify what has been done.

I tell the Mi nister I would like to see a copy of the advert isement. I also say th at I think th at the response has been quick. I believe I asked the question on the first day of the Session that we were permitted to asked questions in December, and if the reaction has been that we now have some prog ress along tha t di rect ion, the n I cert ainly think, Mr. Speaker, that shows a good response. There is one feature that the Mini ster mentioned to this Bill, which could prove interesting, Mr. Speaker, and although it rarely happens, the fact is priority of registration could sometimes be crucial.

The Mi nister of Fin ance will kn ow of a case in which I was involved in which land in Red Rock Lake was going to be sold, and I think that I got to the Land Titles Office min utes before the tr an sfer was to be registered and filed a caveat which changed things. Using the serial num bers certainly permits priority to be established by a serial number, but it doesn't guarantee priority will be establis hed by the time that you got to the Land Titles Office, because if you use two cash registers, the chanc es are, Mr.

Speaker - (I nterje ction)- Un less the Minis ter tells me that the computer will work it out differently. Is it possible that one person could be at one cash register, the other one be at another cash register, and a person earlier in time could get a la ter serial num ber? Because if that's the case, then even in the rare occasions when it happens, Mr .

Speaker, it could be very crucial to the people who are registering the documents. 1591 Now if what the Mini ster is saying that the serial numb ers will spit out of those two cash registers in sequence which are co-ordinated with the time that the person is making it, then I could see that the present system of priori ties will remain. But if it doesn't, then is it going to be conceivable for a person to be at one cash register and get an earlier serial num ber than someone who is at the other cash register ahead of him?

Because right now the sequence is if you are standing in line, then you will have priority in accordance with the line that you are standing in. Perhaps the Mi nister could give us more information on that when we get to commi ttee. MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, I hadn't expected to participate in the debate so soon, but in view of the fact that the Leader of the Progressive Party and the Honourable Attor ney-General are waltzing together as a duenna, I wish to put on record, Mr.

Speaker, my shock that the Attor ney-General of Manitoba has with such great haste moved to fill what he obviously thought was such a horrible inequity perpetrated on Manitoba residents. I agree, Mr . Speaker, that to some extent it was unfair, but we should remember, Mr . Speaker, that this is not a problem that presented to mortgage borrowers. These high advert ising costs that are complained about by the Member for Ink ster were not really a problem for mortgage borrowers, rather, Mr. Speaker, it was a problem for mortgage lenders. It was the people, Mr . Speaker, who provided ... Mr .

Speaker, it's the cost of the advertisement. (Int erjection)- Mr. Speaker, the honourable member says, "What if you want to redeem?" Let him look at the mortgage foreclosure statistics in this province over the past five years, and I'll soon review them, Mr. Speaker. Let him look at those figur es with the Attorn ey-General ... MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member would add ress his remarks to the Chair, I would appreciate it. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I hope that your admonition would also extend to the Member for In kster who shouted and interrupted my remarks.

I presume, Mr . Speaker, tha t the Mem ber for Inks ter is not accorde d special status by the government any more, is he? MR. SPEAKER: Or der, order please. The honourable mem ber ha s ma de a pretty serious allegation about the operation of this Chamber and I wish he would consider it very seriously. Maybe he would like to withdraw the remark he made. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Sp eaker, I thought I only suggested and I will confer with the Hansard record, but I thought I was only suggest ing that I perceived some favour on the part of the govern ment, not on you.

It was not a reflect ion on you, Mr. Speaker. I think I used the words, the gov ernment, and a disposition on the part of the government to be supportive and "friendly" towards my friend from In kster. I don't think that th ere is anything

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 unparliamentary in that suggestion, Mr. Speaker. think that . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. The Honourable Member for lnkster on a point of order. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the Member for Wellington, when you said that he should address the Chair, you said you should addre ss the same remarks to the Member for lnkster, and then suggested that there should be no favourable treatment to the Member for lnkster. So he put it in tha t context ; perhap s he do esn't remember, but he can read it in Hansard and see it. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, I leave it to you. I would sugge st that we should review the Ha nsard transcript, and on consulting it we'll deal with the matter. Obviously there seems to be some dispute as to what was actually said or perhaps even what was inferred, and in all fairness to all parties, I think we should have consideration of the transcripts. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. lt has been customary in parliamentary . . . when things are brought to a member's attention, if there was no int end ed slight, the mem ber traditio nally has apolog ized .

Should the member not wish to apologize at this time, and withdraw his remarks, there are other avenues that then must be taken. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to indicate that there was no conscious effort on my part nor was there any intention to slight you, if that is your concern. I can say, Mr. Sp eak er, as well and unequivocally that I do believe there is a very close relationship between the Member for lnkster and the government and if that's unparliamentary, I will gladly leave this Chamber on your wish, because I believe it to be true. I believe that to be a fact.

MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The honour able member has apologized to the Chair. He may now continue with his remarks. (Interject ion)- Order please. We can only have one speaker on the floor at a time. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: I think the Member for lnkster is finished now, Mr. Speaker, may I proceed? I don't know that this is a point of order or just a diatribe - (Interjection)- he seems to be greatly agitated. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. If the honourable member would address the subject matter at hand, we may proceed with the Business of the House. The Honourable Member for Wellington.

MR. CORRIN: Thank you once again, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, I feel that if the government was motivated to show its good faith with mortgage borrowers, with people who are afflicted with this problem, the problem of high inter est rates, the problem of a sluggish economy, people who are unable to meet their loan commitments, then the 1592 government could have done that in many ways; but, Mr.

Speaker, in im mediately seizing the suggestion of the Member for lnkster and simply going about the simplification of the mortgage advertisement form, the form that appears in the newspaper, you have what has to be described only, with respect, as a most tepid palliative. The Member for lnkster suggests that this will help people who wish to redeem their properties; it will decrease their legal costs in redeeming property. Well, Mr. Speaker, how many people who are actually confronted with an auction sale, actually redeem it? I prac tic ed law, Mr.

Speaker, for a decade and I can tell you I think it's almost a matter of record, that people whose loans fall into tho se sorts of arrears because, Mr. Speaker, we're talking about people whose defaults are usually in the nature of four to five months, when we're talking auction sale, we're talking four to five months in monthly installment default. People in that position, Mr. Speaker, are not likely to be able to redeem their prop er ty. So really what the Ho nou rable Member is doing, Mr.

Speaker, is providing relief to the poor afflicted credit grantor, the lender, the person who has to pay the Winnipeg Free Press or whatever newspaper in the community, to advertise the fact that there will be a mortgage sale at a specific auction room on a specific date, subject to a reserved bi d which will cover tha t pers on's advertising costs, legal costs, all the interest, the cost of the sale and all the other accumulated default that has built up. Now, Mr. Speaker, is this really a reform? Is this an init iative?

The government wants to take credit and they've seized on the opportunity obviously to do this, as some evidence of their real commitment to the poor, downtrodden, much assailed consumer and borrower. Mr. Speaker, there are so many better ways of approaching the problem, so many better ways. Why don't they grapple with the problem we were dealing with during the Question Period? High int erest rates. The question of whether banks are charging too much on their lending rates. Now that's a real problem, Mr. Speaker. When we know th at th ere's a fiv e perc ent difference as between the . . . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. We are dealing with a bill. I wish the honourable member would stick with the subject matter of the bill before us. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MRr CORRIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it's all within the subject matter because the bill is talking about the ways of simp lifying the approach to mortgage foreclosure and reducing costs for people who are affected by mo rtgaged foreclosure proceedings. So what I'm saying is that it would be better to grapple with the real problems. Let's not look simply at the symptoms, Mr. Speaker, let's look at the real problems.

The real problems are the ones that affect the people whose houses are being lost; those are the people who have a problem, not the Royal Bank of Canada or the Toronto Dominion Bank. Mr. Speaker, those chartered banks have the hig hest profits in the hi story of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The hono ur able member has the subject matter before him. I wish he would add ress the subject matter of the bill.

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 The Honourable Member for Wellington. The Honourable Member for Kildonan on a point of order. MR. PETER FOX: I bel ieve we are di scussing foreclosures in this bill and this delegates very many areas. There are very many facets to why there are foreclosures, and the amendment only add resses itself to one particular area. So I do believe the Member for Wellington is on a point of order in respect to the bill itself. MR. SPEA KE R: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will try and di rect myself more specifically to the mor tgage foreclosure problem because you know, the government has done some research on this subject. As a matter of fact, Mr . Speaker, although it wasn't tabled in the House, I've come into possession of a very fine report that was prepared by the - and I will table it although the government has failed to do so - pr ep ared by the Ma nitoba Ho using and Renewal Corporation, dated May 8th, 19 80, and it was submitted to the board of that corporation, it was, it's right on the front. It's signed by Mr. Fileccia, Mr. Mr. Shade and Mr.

Schubert, all of whom are Senio r Admin istrative Officers of the Ho using Corporation. MR. SPEA KE R: Order please. If the hon ourable member can tel l me if we're dealing with The Landlord and Tenant Act, I un derstand that we're dealing with Bill No. 13 and the report he's referring to, I fail to see where it ties in with the bill that we're dealing with. The Hono urable Memb er for Wellin gton may proceed . MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, I draw your attention - I know that you're not privy to these reports as Speaker when they're not tabled in the House, but I can ind icate that the

chapter I'm reading from is entitled Mortgage Defaults and dais very specifically with tha t

part icular problem in the Province of Manitoba and more specifically with the problem as 6it presents in Win nipeg. For that ma tter, Mr. Speaker, it goes into some detail providing us with the numb ers of mortgage foreclosures in the city and province and it do es so in some depth and perspective. Mr. Speaker, we didn' t know, but we're alarmed to find out that between the years 1973 and 1979, there was a 300 percent incr ease in the numb er of mortgage foreclosures in the Province of Manitoba. Now that struck me as somewhat alarming.

It struck me alarming that in 19 79 in Winnip eg alone, there were some 614 mortgage foreclosures, as compared to some 260 in 19 73; 15 4 in 19 74 and 19 7 in 19 75, and I might add in 19 76, 171. So we have a situation that under the tenure of this government, we've had a dr amatic in crease and in fairne ss we should mention 19 78, which was 444 in the City of Winnipeg. So we've had a dramatic escalation in the incidence of this particular problem and I suppose to be fair again, we should ind icate that just in the months of - and those are dealing with orders for sale, Mr.

Speaker, th ose are actually ful l-term 1593 mortgage foreclosures - in 19 80 I know that in the months of Januar y and February alone we had 412 notices of sale and some 17 5 orders for sale. So times six, Mr . Speaker, six times 17 5, you can see that we're going to have a very dr amatic appreciation again in the numb er of mo rtgage foreclosures in 19 80 over 19 79 and 19 78, which were, Mr. Sp eaker, alr eady record years. The government, Mr . Speaker, has indeed set a record with respect to some economic ind icators. Mr.

Speaker, I can ind icate that the full effect of inflation in the interest rate incr eases has not been felt, and this was the concern of the reporting staff to the board; they noted that because of the time lag between notices of sale and property auctions, the full im pact of 19 79 inflation and int erest rate incr eases had not been felt in terms of foreclosure numb ers. So what they were project ing, Mr. Speaker, was again a dramatic in crease in the numb er of mortgage defaults in Manitoba and Winni peg. So, Mr.

Speaker, I think that in view of the distressing situation in this regard we have looked, and we will continue to look to the government to do some thing more substantial about this very pressing problem. Simply by reducing the cost to the lender, Mr. Speaker, we don't regard this as a reform. It may indeed, a small percentage of borrowers may be helped if they are able to redeem, there may be the odd one, but most of the people who will be affected and most of the people whose position will be bettered will be the lenders; that is the class of people whose position is being bettered. So, Mr.

Speaker, in speaking to this bill I can say that we don't regard it as a major initiative. We're di sappoi nted tha t the gov ernment, for in stance, didn' t do some thing about the time limits upon which a person can redeem his or her property from foreclosure. It is possible, Mr. Speaker, by legislation to extend those limits in such a way that a lender could not put a mortgage into foreclosure as quickly. Now, Mr. Speaker, this may have been, in view of high interest rates, this may have been a reform.

It may have worked as an assistance to those people who are marginally underincomed, unable to deal with the inflating economy; it would have assisted those people to keep their heads above water; it would have been a worthwhile legislative reform, cer tainly worth looking at, certa inly worth considering. Now there, Mr . Speaker, some support may have been evinced from members on this side. Mr.

Sp eaker, as I said before, if there was legislation to deal with the problem of usuriously high inter est rates in this province introduced in this bill, again mem bers on this side would be, I think, very supportive, particularly as a result of what we now know about bank profits over the first quarter of this year. Mr. Speaker, ther e surely are other ways to add ress this distressing problem. I don't think the government has demonstrated a real commitment to im pro ving the situation of ho meowners in this province.

I might also add that there was legislation in this province, I believe, that allo wed governments to no t im pose a mora toriu m, but allo wed go vernments to extend payment periods on defaulted credit agreements or arrangements. I am trying to remember the name of the legislation that was introd uced during the depression, it was a piece

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 of legislation that set up a provincial board that had the respon sibility of revie wing the cases and situations of various debtors who were unable to sustain their credit relations. So the board could extend the time for payment of a giv en credit arrangement. They could extend time for payment by one month or two months or three months, or they could also, Mr. Speaker, mitigate by way of reducing the monthly installment due to the lender. Now that, Mr. Speaker, although it may not be appropriate in all circumstances, was deemed to be appropriate in the depress ion.

I'm not sure that things are as bad in Manitoba as they were then, Mr. Speaker, in the dirty thirties, and I'm sure it would be very difficult for anybody to suggest that they had reached that rock bottom level. But Mr. Speaker, th ere is considerable evidenc e tha t this is an economy that's in a very serious down cycle. Now some will refer to it as a recession, others will refer to it in other ways; they will use euphem isms that amount to admissions that the economy is unhealthy and ailing. Mr.

Speaker, we have to look at ways to deal with this, and if we're not going to do positive things, affirmative things, that will incentive the commercial private sector, if we're not going to do something that will create jobs, something that will increase commercial activity within the province then, Mr. Speaker, we have to look at ways of protect ing people who are being ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I have given the honourable member a great deal of latitude. I hope he would di rect his remarks to the subject matter of the bill before us. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Well going back, Mr.

Speaker, respect what you've said and I will try and address myself more specifically to the subject of mortgage defaults and the consequences of such occurrences. Mr. Speak er, I can tell you, and I think I'm reasonably well informed on the real estate market in this city anyway, I can tell you that there has been a serious loss of confidence among inv estors of residential real estate, and that includes apartment units. Mr. Speaker, prices of residential property are deflated throughout the city, there has been a lack of commercial activity, the supply-demand situation is simply not working.

There is every ind ication, Mr. Spe aker, tha t mo rtgage foreclosures and the incidenc e of mor tgage foreclosures caused by inflation and high in terest rates is having a very serious im pact on that sector of the economy. People are not building, they're not building because they know that the consumer is not willing to take the chance. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, if I may, the question related to mortgage foreclosure proceed ings in the Act is a reference to reduction in the number of times for adver tising.

I think, with all due respect to the Member for Wellington, that his remarks do not pertain to the subject matter of the bill. 1594 MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: I think, on second reading, Mr. Speaker, we have always allowed ours elves to address the concept of the bill; that is part of the parliamentary process. I concur with my friend that we should try and restrict our remarks to mortgage default and foreclosure because that is a concept which is inherent in the bill, but Mr.

Speaker, I can't sugges t th at it's not on the table when my honourable frie nd, and former colleague from lnkster, was dis cussing the question of mortgage foreclosure, the Honourable Minister didn't chide him or attempt to bring him to order. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The Honou rable Member for lnkster on the point of order. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I rise on a point of order. I have no objection to the member babbling on nonsense for his full 40 minutes. But to suggest that what I said made what he is saying in order goes too far, Mr. Speaker, and on that I do rise on a point of order.

The Minister ind icated that a simple step was being taken, he was not talking about the reform or protection of mortgage borrowers, he said that the ad is going to be simplified and it's only going to be required once. He did not put this forward as a suggestion of saving borrowers money. The member is now talking as if this ad, in principle, is designed to prevent foreclosures in the Province of Manitoba. Now I have no objection to hearing it but what I do object to is him saying that my remarks, dir ectly to the point of the bill, make his remarks in order.

Because the statistics that he is using are statistics that I brought to the attention of this House two years in succession, and somet imes in contravention to what my learned friend at that time was saying. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The ho nourable member has repeatedly been asked to stick to the subject matter before us in debate. I would hope that he would confine his remarks to the area that is included in the bill and carry on in that manner. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have almost concluded my remarks.

I didn't intend to go my full 40 minutes, as it was put by the Member for lnkster. Sometimes one wonders, Mr. Speaker, who in fact is the official Government Hous e Leader. We have obviously a slightly dis tinguis hed position between MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. If the honourabl e mem ber does not wish to carry on debate on this bill I will call the question. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Yes. One grows tir ed of dealing with the red-green access, Mr. Speaker, so I will conclude my ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Are you ready for the question?

The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. J. R. (Bud) BOYCE: Mr. Speaker, it's such a simple principle and it has been dis cussed a number

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 of times, it isn't intended to solve all the problems. As pointed out by the Member for Wellington, there are serious problems in the mortgage field, interest rates and all the rest of it. But this is but a housekeeping bill and I, for one, would like to see the bill go to commit tee and be dealt with so that we can get on with the business of the House and deal with these pressing problems that are dou btless causing us all concern. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Mr.

Sp eaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Kildonan, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Then we will proceed with Bill No. 8,

An Act to amend The Garnishment Act, standing in the name of The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Could we have Bill No. 8 and No. 27 stand, please. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Government Services that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. As I ind icated earlier, it's for the purpose of dealing with Interim Supply.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair. COM MITTEE OF SUPPLY INTERIM SUPPLY MR. CH AIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): Commit tee will come to order, Interim Supply.

Resolve that a sum not exceed ing $673,466 ,0 10, being 30 percent of the amount of the several items to be voted for departments as set forth in the Main Estima tes for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 19 82, laid before the House at the present session of the Legislature, be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 19 82 - pass - the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, first I would ask the Minister of Finance if he could undertake to request that the Minister responsible for Flyer be present in order to deal with some qu estions during this particular bill when it reaches Com mittee of the Whole. -(I nterject ion)- Yes, in Manitoba Development Corporation, its predecessor. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Ho nour able Minister of Finance. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I'll make known the Leader of the Oppositio n's desire to that end. I believe that the company has already been dis cussed 1595 in commit tee. I cert ainly will dr aw tha t to the Minister's atten tion. MR. PAWLEV: Mr.

Chairman, we have a number of matters to raise, and I would think it would be better that the Minister be here in order to deal with the specific qu estions which are geared towards obtaining information, and it's not that the matter could have been dealt with in Commit tee, it's pursuant to information received since, on my part, that I would like to question the Minister on, and I think the Minister of Finance could expedite matters if he could provide us with that kind of commitm ent MR. CHAIRMAN: Interim Supply - pass - the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEV: Mr.

Chairman, we have noticed the increasing sensitivity of the Minister of Finance and other of his colleagues pertaining to statistics. And it is interes ting, Mr. Chairman, th at sensiti vity is particularly relating to the matter of Conference Board statistics. Suddenly we have reached a stage where it is questionable, one's use of Conference Board statistics. Mr. Chairman, on April 26th, 19 79, it's interesting to note that one that is now emp loyed in a position with this government as a commun icator, one Mr.

Ha rry Mardon, in the Winnip eg Tribune, used Conference Board statistics with great relish to demonstrate, and I quote, "The political opponents of Premier Sterling Lyon have end eavoured to portray Manitoba's economic backwater since the Tories took power 18 months ago. But the facts as assembled by the Non-political Conference Board in Canada show quite the opposite." Now later, three, four months, later when the statistics didn't work out, they were too generous in their forecasts, the same Mr. Mardon described those statistics as belonging to the doom cryers of the Conference Board in Canada. Mr.

Chairman, I am going to speak about the issue of the economy. I am going to di scuss the lack of economic growth; job · creation; the diminis hing of population in the Province of Manitoba; the exodus of Manitobans from this province during the term of the present government. Mr. Chairman, dis cussion of this order I believe is quite in order at this time in view of the circumstances that we are dealing with.

In 1977 the expectat ion that was aroused by way of commitments; by way of promises, repeated many times by the First Minister and those that now sit in positions of power, was to the effect that there would be a blossoming, a blooming of the economy; that there would be, in the vision of the First Minister who sometimes has some visions, and indeed had a vision just prior to the 11 th of October, 19 77, a vision of additional job security for young people in this province; has indeed been demonstr ated by the past thr ee-and-a-half years of practise. lt has been demons trated that their forecasts now being examined demonstr ates that this government has been a complete failure, a total failure insofar as economic development in this province.

Mr. Chairman, that -(In ter jec tion)- Yes, th e Minister of Transportation says dream world. Mr. Chairman, the First Minister, the members of the Conservative Gov ernment of Manitoba, th e colleagues including the Minister of Transportation

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 have lived in a dream world, Mr. Chairman, for the past thr ee-and-a-half years. Mr. Chairman, what we on our side are going to say to the people of the Province of Manitoba, let's cease our dreaming, let's move into the world of reality, let's get Manitoba moving. Mr. Chairman, during the period 1978, 19 79, 1980, we were repeatedly being reassured, in fact, Mr. Chairman. the 19 78 Throne Sp eech reads, and I quote. "The initial steps to recovery have already been taken in Manitoba". 19 78, the initial steps to recovery have already been taken in Manitoba - 1978, Mr.

Chairman. 19 79, Bud get Sp eech, "We can point with a sense of real accomplishment to growing evidence that a turnabout is taking place", - 1979, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, of course they are ideologists. They believe their own words. They have lived, as the Minister of Transportation ind icated only a few moments ago, in a world of dreamland. 19 80, Mr. Chairman, they even became very poetic in their Budget Speech. They said, and I qu ote, "Our economy is back on tra ck," after two years, now they are announcing in 19 80 the economy is back on track. And do you know what they also went on to say, Mr.

Chairman, - please note thi s, Mr. Chairman - they said, "And there are blue skies ahead ." Blue skies ahead, Mr. Chairman, three years of message to the people of Manitoba; three years of attempt to hoodwink the people of the Province of Manitoba; but the problem is, Mr. Chairman, the people of Manitoba will not be hoodwinked by this government or any other group of individuals. The people of Manitoba I ha ve confidence in, Mr. Chairman, will not be hoodwinked by that kind of sing-song that we've heard for three years from members across the way. Mr. Chairman, I am not surprised because by this time, Mr.

Chairman, we know that members across the way live in the world of unreality. But I would have thought, Mr.

Chairman, that they would have by this time recog nized the fact th er e's been an increase in bankruptcies; I would have thought that rather than coming in and dealing with procedures relating to foreclosure that they might indeed bring into this Legislature, at an early point, and they should have done in back in 1980, 19 79 - measures in order to ensure confidence in the small business community of this province to reduce the number of foreclosures in the Province of Manitoba, rather than whining in this Chamber about simplified procedures in order to stream line foreclosure procedure in the Province of Manitoba.

Let's see some action from members across the way rather than whining. And job creat ion, Mr. Chairman, I want to say this clearly in this Chamber that I, for one, am proud of the work in ind ustry that's been done by the Member for Brandon East. The Member for Brandon East put together a booklet which is entitled, "Decline of Manitoba Econ omy Un der the Cons ervative Government". That booklet was not hidden; it was widely di stribu ted throughout Manitoba; it was distri buted to the small busi ness commun ity, to municipal officials, to Cham bers of Com merce and to others in Manitoba.

Do you know what I understand, Mr. Chairman, that those that are commit ted to Conservative ideology within the economics area of the Province of Manitoba have gone through this booklet, desperately, Mr. Chairman, desperately trying to pick holes in the good work that the Member for Brandon East has done? Do you know, Mr. Chairman, what they have come up with? They have come up with zilch, because of the industry and effort by the Member for Brandon East. Mr.

Chairman, I under stand full well why mem bers are so sensitive when the Member for Brandon East rises from his chair and brings to the attention of this Chamber the magnitude of the failure on the part of that government across the way to deal with the real economic problems confronting Manitoba at the present time. Mr. Chairman, you may not like the information the Member for Brandon East has brought to you but what he has brought to you is fact, and don't think for a moment that you are going to eliminate the fact by trying to destroy the messenger; the fact is ther e. Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Brandon East poi nted out what has happe ned in respect to population under this Conservative government; the Member for Brandon East has pointed out what has happened by way of economic growth under this Cons ervat ive admin istra tion. He re it is very interest ing, because our friends across the way love to say, ah, but we are victims of forces beyond our control. Now we are hearing that excuse.

For thr ee years we heard that things were going to turn around or that the economy wasn't really as bad as people in the Province of Manitoba might think but just hold on, just hold on to your seats, everyt hing will impr ove. Now they are telling us, ah, but the problem is the Federal Government; the problem is international forces. Mr. Chairman, my colleague and I won't be sidetracked on this matter, but I say thank God , for equalization payments. Our colleagues across the way and this Conservative government don't want to see equa lizat ion payments entrenched in the Constitution of the Province of Manitoba.

I can see Alberta taking tha t posit ion; I can even see Saskatchewan not being concerned about that; but, Mr. Chairman, for the government, Her Majesty's Government of the Province of Manitoba to be adopting that position. Mr. Chairman, I'm sure it turns the insides of any thinking Manitoban that our government would adopt such a position. But, Mr.

Chairman, dur ing the most interesting and valid analysis that the Member for Brandon East has undertaken, and one that has not for a moment been disproven, is the fact that during the period of this government, th ree years from 1977 to 19 80, Manitoba's rate as a percentage of Canada's rate of economic growth - 9. 1 percent, compared to 79. 1 percent, 1970 tO 19 77. So although th e economic pictur e may have worsened in Canada, although it may have been worsening throughout most of the western world, it is worsened to a greater extent in the Province of Manitoba.

That is the key factor that mus t be analyzed pert aining to this government's record while being in office. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance will probably get up as his predecessor did and say, when questioned by these statistics, Oh well you should take the final two years of the NDP government or the final three years of the NDP government and compare them with our first two years, or first thr ee years of our government. Mr. 1596

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 Chairman, compare any last two years or last thr ee years or last four years, any thr ee years you wish; I challenge you to do that, the answer will be the same, Mr. Chairman. This Conservative Government has been an abysmal failure insofar as economic management in the Province of Manitoba. Now, Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to deal over length about this gove rnment, because this government is day by day destroying itself insofar as its cred ib ilit y is concerned.

I could dis cuss out migration; I could discuss housing starts; I could dis cuss the retail sales, the picture is the same throughout. This government, the most innovative program that they've come up with is a program to advertise to Manitobans to do what? To stay in Manitoba; to stay in Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, I would have been ash amed . Ashamed for a moment, many many a moment, if we had ever launched a program, during the time that we served in government, pleading with the people of the Province of Manitoba to stay in Manitoba.

If we were so bankrupt of ideas; if we so lacklustre as a gover nment; if we so non-inno vative as a· government that all we could do to try and turn the economy of this province around was to advertise and plead with Manitobans to stay in Manitoba. And you know the Minister of Economic Development, if he was here, he would be saying your doom and gloom guis e. Mr . Chairman, the Manitobans are not of doom and gloom. If they have any doom and gloom, that doom and gloom is about the type of government that exists presently in the Province of Manitoba and they will be soon doing something about that, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, what we have seen is a wholesale retreat from different positions taken by mem bers across the way. We've seen them retreat on property tax credit. Why it was only in 19 76 that the former Minister of Finance was going to wipe out the program. We've seen them run with tail between their legs when it comes to Autopac. They spent $300,000 on a commission to investigate Autopac; then they politely ignored the recommendations of the commission. Mr. Chairman, we don't trust this government because it may only be a temporary retreat from their traditional position with respect to Autopac.

Mineral development; they talked about the heavy hand of government being inv olved in mine ral development; now they've done ful l-scale retreat. They're introducing government equity into mineral development in the Province of Manitoba, despite those long repeated words about the heavy hand of government. Tax deficit financing. Mr. Chairman, we expected a balanced budget by this time; a balanced budget or a surplus, a surplus, Mr. Chairman, because these were efficient business managers.

These were the people, not only were they going to turn the economy of the Province of Manitoba around , but they were going to balance the booRs. They were going to balance the books and, Mr. Chairman, what we've observed in the past three years have been large deficits and we see no plan of operation in order to reduce those large deficits. Mr. Chairman, we, unlike the members across the way, have never pretended that in any par ticu lar giv en year it's unwise to run a deficit. But the members across the 1597 way suggested in 19 77 that this is part and parcel of a fundamental tenet of their party.

They betrayed that, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there are a number of areas that should be undertaken and I want to deal now with some of the positiv e features th at a positive government would undertake in order to bring about some oxygen into the economy of this Province of Manitoba so we could ensure that there would be job creation and opportunity for our young people, which we haven't seen for the past three-and-a-half years. Mr. Chairman, the philosophic differential between the New Democratic Party and the Conservative Party is straig htforward.

The New Democratic Party recognizes the role of government in order to bring about the stimulation of the economy during times when the economy ought to be sti mulated. The problem confronting honourable members across the way is that during their early period, when they assumed gover nment, so hung up by radic al doctrinaire views that government must withd raw, government must withd raw. Oh, Mr. Chairman, if there's anybody that is radical in this province, radical and right wing, it has been the record of this government. Withdr awal, they withdr ew economic activity as a government. They said, Mr.

Chairman, that they were putting the private sector on trial. We remember those words, Mr. Chairman, government was going to withdraw, the private sector would be placed on trial. Oh those were strong words. Mr. Chairman. So what we witne ssed in the Province of Manitoba was a net red uction in investment in Manitoba, total investment in Manitoba. lt is for that reason, Mr. Chairman, that we are now in the situation which we' re presently wit nessi ng in Manitoba.

We are in that position because this government does not accept any basic role for government in the management of the affairs of the economy of the Province of Manitoba. That is the difference, Mr. Chairman, between their approach and our approach. Mr. Chairman, when indeed the economy does slip, and certainly it has slipped in Canada, throughout the world in the past two or th ree years, that is the time that government must become more positive, more assertive insofar as developing programs of an innovative nature in order to turn the economy around. Mr.

Chairman, it was not the time, as this government did in the fall of 19 77, to freeze all hospital and personal care home construction in Manitoba. They froze hospital and personal care home construction; they exercised rest raint when it came to post-secondary educa tion, other programs pert aining to education; other matters pertai ning to northern de velopm ent. Th ere was a wholesale restraint program which .was em barked upon by this government, and now of course, Mr. Chairman, you have, with an election coming up, a sudden change in pattern on their part. But what is taking place, Mr.

Chairman, that we have a group of individuals across the way that call themselv es the government of the Provi nce of Manitoba that are better political managers than they are economic managers in the Province of Manitoba and that's what is wrong, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there is much housing that should have been examined and developed. Mr. Chairman,

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 there is senior citizen housing; there is housing for low income families; that was discontinued by this gover nm ent, by way of its pulling back from economic activity; the Critical Home Repair Program, the job creation programs of various kinds and types were withd rawn by this government during a critical time in the life of this government. Mr. Chairman, I am not satisfied, I am not at all satisfied that this government did what it could have done pertaining to Manitoba Hydro.

I know that in 19 79, when the Member for Churchill brought into this House a resolution calling for the immed iate resu mp ti on and or derl y development of hydr o genera tion work on the Nelson, government members across the way voted to a man against that resolution. But, Mr.

Chairman, I believe that we would have been better off in the past three years if we would have had some increased activity on the part of this Minister's predecessor, in order to undertake the development of firm contracts south of the border over the past three years, so that we could have increased the export of hydro from the Province of Manitoba, so we could have brought about further Manitoba generation, rather than what we have witnessed three years, three years of projection, it may still take place, we'll be exam ining it carefully when it comes forward, of a western connect ion.

They dr opped efforts in order to bring about increased sale of hydro south of the border; they dropped efforts in order to try to bring about firm contra ct sales in Minnesota and elsewhere south of the border. Well for thr ee years, for three years since we first heard of this, Mr. Chairman, they have been working on a western connection involving Saska tchewan and Alberta; th ree years, Mr. Chairman, that I believe were lost to Manitobans, lost to Manitobans. Mr.

Chairman, also by way of economic development, rather than to have sold out their interest, their option in Tantalum, which has cost the people of Manitoba dearly; rather than to have diluted their int erest in Trout Lake, copper mine near Flin Flon, which again has cost Manitobans dearly; rather than have gi ven away int erests and, Mr. Chairman, we are at some dis advanta ge here because it's very difficult of course to obtain any information from this government, but on the potash development in St. Lazare. Mr.

Chairman, one of the principle platforms of the next New Democratic Party government will be to maximi ze public participation in mineral development in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Chairman , we need only look to Sa skatche wan . One-qu arter to one- third of th e revenues received by the Saskatchewan budget received from potash development. I can recall, Mr. Chairman, when potash was advanced in the Province of Saskatchewan as the area for public investment. There were those in Saskatchewan that fought it tooth and nail, tooth and nail, the Conservatives in the Province of Saskatchewan.

This was socialism; this was alien, alien to our way of life. Mr. Chairman, Saskatchewan has dem onstra ted that ther e is a place for government in publi c participation in the development of mineral resources along with the private sector in order to ensure that there's maximum return for all the people in any given jurisdiction. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition has 3 minutes. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, do I have your ruling that I'm limited to 40 minutes, I thought that ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Thir ty minutes.

The Honourable Lead er of the Opposition is lim ited to, as all members are lim ited to, 30 minu te speeches in commi ttee. You may speak as often as you like, but each speech is limited to 30 minutes. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I can assure you that I'll be making more speeches before this matter leaves the committee. Mr. Chairman, what is most disappointing and has concerned my colleagues for quite some time, is that this is a province which depends to a great deal upon the business commun ity, the private small family business in Manitoba.

And yet during three years of this government, if there is one government, Mr. Chairman, that has let down the small business communi ty in a major way in Manitoba, it has been the Conservative Go ver nment in Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, you read, and I'm sure we all read, the comments by one in last Saturday's Free Press, which I say describes the thinking of more and more in the small business community in the Province of Manitoba, a Mr. Mitchell, in fact in my own constituency. Mr. Chairman, I don't know how Mr. Mitchell, I can tell members honestly I don't know how he votes.

I think a couple of years ago he might have been sympathetic to the govern ment, but obviously no more is he sympathetic. When he told the reporter for the Winnipeg Free Press, I received assistance from this government, but boy did I ever find out what kind of assistance they gave me under that Manitoba Enterprise Program. Then he went on to say, this was quite a note from a government that was supposed to be the friend of the small business community, did they ever stick it to me. Mr.

Chairman, I find that more and more small business people are saying to me, and my colleages report the same, that more and more small business people are saying; we thought this government were our friends, but the last three-and-one-half years, if there's ever been a government that has stuck it to us, it's been the Federal Government in Ottawa and the Provincial Government under Sterling Lyon in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, that's what we're hea ring more and mor e of because the sma ll, and my colle agues say qu ite correctly, what's the difference? Mr.

Chairman, what we are going to point out more and more and let this be clear, is that that there is no basic di fference between th e Conservative and Liberal Parties when it comes to economic approaches, not only in Manitoba but in Ottawa. Do you think th at for a moment, Mr. Chairman, that it matters that the Prime Minister of this countr y now is Pierre Elliot Trudeau rather than Joe Clark? lt's one that is in and the other is out. But, Mr.

Chairman, what this government has lacked insofar as the small business community is a strategy in order to ensure that retail sales are increased and there is some remedial efforts pertaining to int erest rates in the Province of Manitoba, Mr. Chairman, I know that you 're looking at the clock. I will be continuing further to point out . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, the Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition's time has expired. 1598

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to add to the words that have been uttered by my leader with respect to the num ber one problem facing the people of Manitoba and facing the Government of Manitoba today and that is the serious state of our economic health. I'm convinced, Mr.

Chairman, that Manitoba has not faced as serious an economic situation as it has in the last three years since the Dirty Thirties, since the great depression of the Dirty Thirties, and this is not imagination on my part, it's not my statistical work that has dis covered this. I think you can talk to the average Manitoban and particularly some of those who have been around a number of years and they will tell you they have never seen things as bad as they have been the last few years under the Lyon adminis tration of this province.

I find it rather amusing to see how the government squirms when we refer to what I consider to be reliable data from legim ita te organ izat ions whether it be Statistics � Canada or whether it be the Conference Board in , Canada.

The government and the front bench on the government side is indeed - well, maybe the back bench as well - is indeed emba rrassed by the fact that using their own sources and their own figures and relating to their previous statements, that we can show them that without a question of a doubt that the Manitoba Economy has gone absolutely nowhere in the past thr ee years, has gone absolutely nowhere. Mr. Chairman, since the question period, I've taken the trouble to phone Statistics Canada in Ottawa with regard to the sources of real domestic product esti ma tes.

I have checked out whether there is indeed any other source that we can utilize; that anyone can utilize to estimate the real economic growth of the provinces of this country of ours and the answer is no, there is only one source at the present time that is publishing on a consistent basis, provincial estima tes or real domestic product and that is the Conference Board in Canada; and, Mr. Chairman, the Conferenc e Board in Canada � estima tes that I'm talking about are historical data, ' not the forecast.

They may be rather poor on forecasting as the Minister of Finance says although I wish the previous Minister of Fina nce had acknowledged that when he so bravely used it in his 1980 Budget Address. He made a major effort, a major spee ch, Mr. Chairman, based on the Conference Board forecast. I am not using forecast, in fact, all of the work we have done has not been based and has not referred to forecast, we 'r e referring to historical data.

The historical data used by the Conference Board obviously is based on data provided by Statistics Canada organ izat ion, and we realiz e that all estim ates are subje ct to error; all estima tes are subject to change and so on. But the best work of people who have no axe to grin d who I would consider to be in a very unbiased and objective position then, namely the econom ists and th e Conference Board in Canada, have indeed come up with figures that make it very very clear and it's unequivocal, Mr.

Chairman, that Manitoba since 1977 is the only province in Canada that has had zero growth, zilch, no growth wh atsoever. Well, Mr. Chairman, even the Atlantic region has experienced gr owth and I'm talking about real 1599 growth when you eliminate the inflation and squeeze the inflation, what has happened? Mr. Chairman, in the three years of Conservative Government, in the thr ee years from 1977 through to 1980, we see the Canadian real growth rate as 7.1 percent.

That's the total of economic growth that occurred in the past thr ee years while my friends opposite have been the government of this province, 7.1 percent. If we look at the Atlantic Region we see Newfoundland was 5.1 percent; Prince Edward Island, 7.5 percent; Little Prince Edward Island; Nova Scotia, 5.9 percent; New Brunswick, 4.6 percent; Quebec, 7.3 percent; Ontario which has been plagued by autom obile ind ustry declines, 3.0 percent; Manitoba, 0.0 percent; Saskatchewan, 6.0 percent; Alberta, 21. 8 percent and British Columbia, 11.4 percent. Mr.

Chairman, the best estimates we have, the latest data we have show th at this government has had a set of economic policies to the extent that they have been trying to do what they say they've been wishing to do in this Budget Speech and other Budget Speeches, these policies have been totally ineffective, they have been a total unm itigated disaster. The people of Manitoba have been let down; they've been led down the garden path by Sterling Lyon in 1977 and by god they'r e not going to be led down the garden path in the next election. Mr.

Chairman, Sterling the Premier of this Province, throughout the October '77 election period and thereabout said, "We're going to get Manitoba moving again". Well he certainly got Manitobans moving again because there has never been such an exodus in interprovincial migr ation tha t we've experienced in the past years, again, since a period of a previous Conservative Regime under one Mr. Dufferin Roblin. Mr.

Chairman, I'm sorry to report that the figures that we have from Statistics Canada - and we know they're estima tes but they're the best thing we can get and we have to use them - show that probably in the years '78, '79 and '80 combined you take these three full years of Conservative Government - and the figures are not final yet - but it looks as though we will have lost 40,000 people, 40,000 men, women, and childr en on a net basis from this good province of ours. Mr. Chairman, 40,000 people; that' s bigger than the City of Brandon.

You could put the City of Brandon plus Souris and maybe you could even add Melita or some such place in with it and it's like those commun ities disappearing from the face of the map in this province of ours. Mr. Chairman, if the honourable members don't like to refer to real economic growth which I consider to be an overall estimate, it's the bottom line, we can look at many other figures; and I might add that there's soon to be da ta out on invest ment expectat ions in the province and it'll be interesting to see what those figures reveal when they come out in a couple of weeks time.

We, however, can look at all kinds of data. I agree with some members opposite to just take one month of one year and com pare it with one month of another year may not be satisfactory - of course thi s one point of that approach, Mr. Chairman, is tha t the evidence - I agree tha t someti mes comparing one month of one year with the same month of another year is not as satisfactory because it is only indeed one month, but nevertheless it the

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 current estimate and you can get an idea what's happening most recently. But if the Honourable Minister of Fi nance does not like reference to department store sales on a January to January basis, I invite him to look at what happened to department store sales in Manitoba in the year 1980, over the year 1979, and Mr. Chairman, all this does is corroborate the other data that we've got and that is, if you take total department store sales, 1980 over 1979, the increase in Manitoba was 4.4 percent. Incidently before the Minister of Finance gets all excited, I phoned Stats Canada this morning and I got this information from the horses mouth so to speak, from the

section that compiles the data and I didn't use the Free Press of today which also has some wrong figures in it. The Minister of Finance then will agree with me that apart from tiny Prince Edward Island which had a growth of 3.7 percent in department store sales, the Province of Manitoba was the second lowest in Canada at 4.4 percent less than half of the Canadian average of 9.9 percent. Well I say, Mr. Chairman, those figures don't tell the whole story; they only tell a very fragment of the picture.

They only give us a fragment of what is going on, but nevertheless they do corroborate the other data that comes out in a pattern of lack of growth of indeed decline in many areas. I know the mem bers opposite are always talking about employment growth. Well, Mr.

Chairman, we have had an incr ease in emplo yment - and incidently for those of you who think that we're so selective in our statistics, I have recorded that in my report - we record that the number of jobs created on average in the past three years was inde ed greater than the number of jobs created on average during the eight years of New Democratic Party Government. I've got it in here; we state that. lt was 9,700 jobs on average from 1978 to '80, those three years; compared to 7,300 in the years that we were in office. I recognize that and I would be a fool to want to ignore the figures that I have. But, Mr.

Chairman, the fact is that this increase in jobs that we've experienced has also been experienced right across this nation of ours from coast to coast. There has been a national job creation wave, if you like, caused essen tially by the devaluation of the Canadian dollar. Our 83 cent dollar is good for our exporters. In fact, it's good for our processors who have to compete within the Canadian domestic market. lt has an im pact like a raise in the national tariff and indeed that has been the experience from coast to coast. There has been a vast increase in job creat ion. But, Mr.

Chairman, if you look at what we have been doing compared to the national scene, you'll see that even here we have deteriorated. We had a much smaller percentage of the national job creation pie, if you will, in the past three years of Conservative Government than we had in the eight years of NDP Government. So I say even here in job creation we have to be concerned.

If you look at, again figur es, and th ese are put out by Stats Canada, if you look at what's happened - I've got the last few years here, 1979, 1980 - if you take the year 1980 you will find that of the ten Canadian provinces, job creation in Manitoba was the lowest; we were the bottom province on the totem pole. The national average in job creation was 4.0 percent; Manitoba was 2.8; the lowest of the ten. If you look at how many jobs were created in 1980 over 1979, what was the percentage increase in employment? Again, Manitoba is the lowest province of all ten.

Our job creat ion was 1.4 percent com pared to the Canadian average of 2.8 percent. Well, Mr.

Chairman, as I stated you can look at many ma ny figur es but I don't want to bo re members of the Chamber with recitation of numbers, but I want to make it quite clear that we are not trying to fool ourselves - as I would submit some mem bers op posite are ind eed trying to do - grasping at straws, changing their positions; if one set of figures don't work at one time then you move over to another set, and certainly as the Budg et Speech of the former Minister of Finance reveals, they depended very very heavily on the forecasts of an institution that they are now disclaiming, that they are now atta cking.

As a matter of fact I believe, not only in here but I believe in a government official news release put out by the Information Services Branch, I think there's an entire release devoted to statistics of the Conference Board of Canada and the former Minister of Fina nce, who's crowing about them, because they seem to suit his purpose at the time. Well, Mr. Chairman, basically the point at issue then is a difference in economic philosophy, I would submit.

In many ways as my leader stated, we are deba ting here, we 've concerned ourselves here whether government should withd raw as much as possible from the economic scene, whether government should be as small as possible if you like, whether the least gove rnment is the best government, whether tha t phi losophy that the Premier has so often espoused, is the correct philosophy for the well-being, for the betterment of the people of Manitoba. That philosophy was well enunciated, and I'm not suggesting that it isn't a legiti mate point of view.

You could have as a legitima te point of view, this ult rafree enterprise approach that the least government is the best government, and by following that philosophy then you bring about the highe st rate of economic growth. Indeed the Premier of this province, when he was the former Leader of the Official Opposition, made it very clear that was the single determination of the Conservative Party of Manitoba and would be the guiding post of the beacon, if you like, for a Conservative government, and as my leader has said, indeed this government has put priv ate enterprise on trial. Well, Mr.

Chairman, we never put priv ate enterprise on trial and we don't intend to put private enterprise on trial. We intend to work with the pri vate sector, -(Int erject ion)- as ha s been suggested to me, what is on trial, and on trial in the minds of th e people of this pr ovince is this government, is the Conservative government of Manitoba, it is on trial. lt is on trial and the jury will be handing down its judgment, I presu me, in a matter of months, we don't know exactly when, maybe sooner rather than later, I don't know. But in a matter of months already I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that the jury will hand down its verdict; and it will be deciding on whether a policy of neo- 1600

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 Conservatism, a policy that is very much like that being spoken up today by Ronald Reagan, the President of the United States and his advisers, a neo-Conservative policy whereby you try to reduce the size of government to the point that - (Interject ion)- the member mentions Great Britain; and as Margaret Thatcher, the Prime Minister of Great Britain so very well put it, Mrs.

Thatcher made it very clear that she recognized that Ronald Reagan was going to pursue the same economic policy as the Conservative Government of Great Britain had been pursuing since the election of Margaret Thatcher and her colleagues. Well, Mr. Chairman, all one has to do is take a glance at the Economist, the very well-known British economic affairs magazine, or read any magazine or any newpspaer that's coming out of Great Britain today to see what a di saster Thatcher economics, neo-Conservative economics has been for the United Kingdom.

Britain is suffering today to the extent as it has never suffered before. I say, Mr. Chairman, here again we have a clear example, maybe one of the best examples of nee-Cons ervative eco nomic philo sophy at work; a phi losophy that di strusts government; the government cannot do anything in the eyes of nee-Cons ervatives and can not do anything of positive value for economic growth. Well, Mr. Chairman, we reject that phi losophy, that policy, and the people of Great Britain I'm sure, are going to reject that policy as soon as they have an opportunity to go to the polls again.

As we can see from the news reports, the levels of unemployment are at all-time highs since the 1930s; the inflation is still intolerably high; factories are closing up left, right and centre. it reminds one of what we have been experiencing in the Province of Manitoba and unfortunately which we may be experiencing in the Un ited States and I, for one, would not like to forecast what's going to happen in Manitoba in 19 81, or indeed Canada, because of the stated policies of the Reagan admin istration.

If he is successful in carrying out his policies of government cutbacks and elimination of many many programs throughout the organization of government, then I beieve that it will have a negative impact on the Canadian economic growth and ther efore a negative im pact on the provincial economic situation. So, Mr. Chairman, I say the people of Manitoba have had experienc e with nee-Co nservative economic policies the past three years. We may see a change from this; we may be witnessing now a departure from this and if that is the case, Mr.

Chairman, then it is an automatic admission of the failure of the phi losophy espoused by the First Minister of this province in the last general election; a total absolute failure of the Conservative economic doctrines. Mr. Chairman, if they weren't a failure, why is there a departure from that position now? A very reluctant departure, I must say.

I would daresay that if, God forbid, this government is re-elected next time, we would see a return - because that's really what the members opposite want to do - they really would like to cut back furt her on social programming, they really would like to do the things that they had done in the first two or three years. Mr. Chairman, what bothers me as well, if I might just talk about inflation for a minute, is the position of the Premier of this province and the Government 1601 of the Province of Manitoba with regard to oil pricing.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why the Premier of a net oil consuming province takes a stand alongside Peter Lougheed of Alberta. That, to me, is incre di ble. it's total ly incred ib le tha t a province which in many ways resembles Ontario in terms of its position in the supply of demand of oil in Canada, is not taking a position that reflects the real needs and well-being of the people of Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, the fact is that if Mr.

Clark had stayed in office and if we had followed the wishes, and in fact, still the stated objectives and desires of the Premier of Alberta, we would have far more inflation today than we are already experiencing. Goodness knows it's high enough now, 11 to 12 percent, it would be even higher, and if that inflation got higher, our standards of living would be dimin ished thereby, because that money is not flowing into any Manitoba Heritage Fund; that money is not flowing in any way to the benefit of the people of Manitoba.

What it is doing is flowing into Lougheed's coffers and what it is doing is flowing into the balance sheets of the multi national corporations. As I ind icated the other day, Mr. Chairman, there is plenty of evidence to show that the multi nationals have not been utilizing all of their recently gained profits for oil and gas development in this country. There's a lot of evidence that they're using it in everything almost but oil and gas development in this province.

There is evidence to show that they're going into uranium mining, coal mining, and we've got plenty of coal we know that; they've gone into real estate; they've gone into management systems, etc.; there is lots of documented evidence; and there is a lot of evidence as well about the outward flow of profits and dividends from Canada to the Un ited Sta tes and other countries by the multi national oil companies and that, Mr.

Chairman, is over and above - the numbers are there - but over and above those num bers is fees, management fees, service fees, etc. , that are paid by Canadian consumers ulti mately to managers in the Unit ed Sta tes of these multina tionals for services rendered. So I say, if we followed the Lougheed policy, we're following a policy that I don't believe is in the best interests of Canadians, and certainly is not in the best interests of the people of Manitoba.

As I said, following what the Premier of this province wants to do, who marches like a zombie behind the Alberta delegation at oil conferences, I say he is in the process causing, or could cause the standard of living of the people of this province to diminish, and at the same time give us even more inflation than we are already experiencing. There hasn't been too much discussion perhaps by the public of the Manitoba Government's oil pricing policy, but I think that's perhaps what the people don't realize.

But what they do realize, and are beginning to realize where it hurts in the pocketbook, is this 20 percent tax, this new tax that the Conservative Government of Manitoba has im posed which is as I under stand, Mr. Chairman, a tax upon a tax. That tax takes effect not only when the price of oil goes up at the wellhead, but it takes effect on top of any Federal taxes or levies that might be put into place. So in effect, the people of Manitoba are paying a tax on a tax. So if my honourable friends opposite complain about oil and gasoline prices going up now because

Wednesday, 11 March, 1981 of the new national energy policy, I say a great deal of tha t increase is also because the Lyon admin istration is taking its 20 percent on top of all of it, and it's amounting to millions of dollars. This piggybacking approach is amounting to millions of dollars. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I was speaking to a senior citizen just two evenings ago who said that he was managing to get by, but one thing he as a senior citizen was cutting down on, was his automobile trips.

He said he didn't go very often, very far around the city, around the province, but he was cutting back on that because that's something he couldn't afford, and I say, Mr. Chairman, if we followed the Lyon-Lougheed approach, I don't think that senior citizen would ever get out of his apartment. Mr.

Chairman, I just want to conclude by referring to the fact that we can talk about all the figures we want and they do show, as I said, that we've had a no-growth situation; but when you bring it down to real terms, when you bring it down to the terms of what's happening to the people of this province in terms of their individual well-being, in terms of their household well-being, then you can appreciate it more, because we bring it down into real terms when your nephew, or your cousin, or your friend, has to leave the Province of Manitoba to seek a job. That's in real terms. Forget about the statistics.

Who doesn't know of a friend or a relative that has left the Province of Manitoba in the last thr ee years since the Conservatives have been in office? There is nobody. Mr. Chairman, who doesn't know of young people that cannot find a job? In fact, we have young people coming into the caucus room saying, where can we get a job? I'm well trained. I'm trained as an interior designer, I can't get a job in Manitoba. (Interje ction)- So in the reality ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. ORDER PLEASE. The hour is 4:30. Commit tee rise. Call in the Speaker.

The Chairman reported upon the Committee's deliberations to Mr. Speaker and requested leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Radisson. MR. KOVNATS: Mr. Sp eaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage, the report of Comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR RESOLUTION NO. 13 PERSONAL CARE HOMES MR. SPEAKER: We're now under Private Members' Hour dealing with resolutions. Resolution No. 13 - the Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Wellington, that: WH EREAS hospitals in Manitoba under the Manitoba Health Services Commission Program are adminis tered on a non-pr ofit basis by commun ity boards composed of dedi cated citizens, as indi viduals, or as representatives of commu nity, service or religious groups; and

WHEREAS the principal of non-profit care in hospitals should be consistently applied to personal care homes, under the Manitoba Health Services Commission Program as well; and WH EREAS the Conservative Government of Manitoba has refused to approve requests from non-profit community based groups to build critically needed personal care homes while at the same time approving requests from private profit -ma king corpora tions to build personal care homes; TH EREFORE BE IT RE SOLVED that the Government of Manitoba cease approvals in funding of new private profit-making personal care homes and only approve and provide funding for non-profit com muni ty based pers onal care homes under the Manitoba Health Services Commission Program.

MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, the issues in this resolution cannot be given full justice in a mere 20 mi nut es, they are th at ma jor, th ey are th at fundamental to our concept of public care. But I just won't spend 20 minutes on this issue, Mr. Speaker, I've talked on this issue in the past, we will talk about it now and in Estima tes and we will talk about it in the future. We will fight this issue in the Legislature, outside of the Legislature.

I challenge the Minister to debate me anywhere, any place and any time on this issue and cert ainly, Mr. Speaker, this will be an issue in the election. We will fight this issue on this side until the gov ernment change s this indefensible policy or until the people of Manitoba throw them out of office. Mr. Speaker, mark my words, this will