Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 13A (26th Legislature, 3rd Session)

26-3-13a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Name ALEXANDER, Keith BAIZLEY, Obie BJORNSON, Oscar .F. CAMPBELL, D. L. CARROLL, Hon. J.B. CHRISTIANSON, John Aaron CORBETT, A. H. COWAN, James, Q. C. DESJARDINS, Laurent . DOW, E. I. EVANS, Hon. Gurney FORBES, Mrs. Thelma FROESE, J. M. GRAY, Morris A. GROVES, Fred GUTTORMSON, Elman HAMILTON, William Homer HARRIS, Lemuel HARRISON, Hon.Abram W. HAWRYLUK, J. M. HILLHOUSE, T.P.,Q .C. HRYHORCZUK, M.N., Q.C. HUTTON, Hon. George INGEBRIGTSON, J. E. JEANNOTTE, J. E. JOHNSON, Hon . George . JOHNSON, Geo. Wm . . KLYM, Fred T. LISSAMAN, :R. 0. LYON,H on. �rling R., Q.C. MARTIN, w·. G. ·McKELLAR, M. E. McLEAN,H on.

Stewart E.,Q .C. · MOLGAT, Gildas MORRISON, Mrs . Carolyne ORIJKOW, David PAULLEY, Russell PETERS, S; PREFONTAINE, Edmond REID, A. J. ROBERTS, Stan ROBLIN, Hon. Duff SCARTH, W .B. , Q.C . SCHREYER, E. R. · SEABORN, Richard SHEWMAN, Harry P. SHOEMAKER, Nelson SMELLIE, Robert Gordon STANES, D. M. STRICKLAND, B. P. TANCHAK, John P. THOMPSON, Hon. John, Q.C. WAGNER, Peter WATT, J. D. WEIR, Waiter WITNEY, Hon. Charles H. WRIGHT, Arthur E. Electoral Division Roblin Os borne Lac du Bonnet Lake side The Pas Portage la Prairie Swan River Winnipeg Centre St.

Boniface Turtle Mountain Fort Rouge Cypress Rhine l and Inkater St. Vital St. George Duff erin Logan Rock Lake Burrows Selkirk. Ethel bert Plains Rockwood-Iberville Churchill Rupertsland Gimll Assiniboia Springfield . Brandon Fort Garry St. Matthews Souris-Lans downe Dauphin Ste. Rose Pembina St. John's Radisson Elmwood Carillon Kildonan La Verendrye Wolseley River Heights Brokenhead Wellington Morris Gladstone Birtle -R ussell St.

James Ham iota Emerson Virden Fisher Arthur Minnedosa Flin Flon Seven Oaks Address Roblin, Man . 185 Maplewood Ave., Winnipeg 13 Lac du Bonnet, Man. 326 Kelvin Blvd ., Winnipeg 29 Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 86-9th St . , N. W. , Ptge. la Prairie, Man . Swan River, Man . 512 Avenue Bldg ., Winnipeg 2 138 Dollard Blvd ., St. Boniface 6, Man • Boissevain, Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Rathwell , Man . Winkler, Man . 141 Cathedral Ave ., Winnipeg 4 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital , Winnipeg 8 Lundar, Man.

Sperllng, Man . 1109 Alexande r Av e., Winnipeg 3 Holmfield, Man. 84 Furby St ., Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg ., Selkirk, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Legislative Bld g., Winnipeg 1 Churchill, Man . Meadow Portage, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 212 Oakdean Blv d., St .James, Wpg. 12 ·Beausejour, Man • 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man . Legisl ative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 . 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 Nesbitt, Man . Legisla tive Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. Manitou, Man. 179 Montrose St., Winnipeg 9 435 Yale Ave.W., Transcona 25, Man . 225 Melrose Ave., Winnipeg 15 St.

Pierre, Man. 561 Trent Ave ., E.K il d., Winnipeg 15 Niverville , Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 407 Queenston St., Winnipeg 9 Beausejour, M� . 594'-.Aj:iington St. , Wfunipeg l.i> ·Morris . Man. · Neepawa, Man. - R�s�ell �. Man�_ 381 Guildford St. , St. James, Wpg. 12 iiamiota , Man . Ridgeville, Man. Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Fisher Branch, Man . Reston, Man . Minnedosa, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 4 Lord Glenn Apts .1 944 Main St ., Wpg.1 7 . /

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8: 00 o'clock, Tuesday, February 28th, 1961 MR. WAGNER: Mr . Speaker, I believe we 're back in to the same hornet's nest as we were last year on the colouring of margarine. The Honourable from Wellington-- the Honourable Member, that is , from Wellington, starts always this farmer and city exploitation. He also - I just made a note, too bad that he's not in his seat, Mr . Speaker, and I bate to talk about a man c;>r a member or anybody else when they are not facing me, because I may make an incorrect statement and there's nobody to correct me . However, Mr .

Speaker, the honourable member stated that the old age wrote him letters asking for colouring of the mar garine. Well, as far as I'm concerned, these old age people didn't ask for colouring, no doubt in my mind at all; they asked for cheaper butter, and possi bly we, as a government, should give them cheaper butter than coloured margarine. I will just be flying through my notes here and there, because I believe, Mr. Speaker, that every honourable member that is in his seat already made up his mind how he is going to vote -- he or she, that is . And when the question was asked by the Honourable Member for St.

George, what colour or the colour would make any difference in the sales, the Honourable Member for Wellington he stated that it brings out appearance. Well I believe any good-looking colour would bring appearance also. It's not necessary to be yellow. I would suggest even light orange would bring good app earance.

And as I would venture to quote from the Joint Agricultural Producers Committee today I received in the mail, and I just glanced at it, and it caught my eye that the colouring of margarine would be actually imitating as butter, and I would wish to quote: "For proof of this ," and that's from the Joint Agricultural Producers Committee of Manitoba which Mr . J. T. Monkhouse is the President. "For proof of this we have only to refer to a recent CBC television program which focused attention on the butter-versus-coloured-margarine issue and the interviewer asked two questions of Mr .

Roblin Merrie, Secretary of the Edible Oils Institute of Foods . The first question, "Would you agree that this struggle to have margarine coloured in the factory is a struggle between two industries, the vegetable oils industry and the dairy industry?" Mr . Merrie 's answer, "Oh, yes ." Another question, ''Is your interest in this issue a business in terest? " Mr. Merrie's answer, "Yes, yes, it's fair to say that." In view of the fact that the television program in question was seen on the national network, we call Mr .

Merrie 's answer an honest attempt to call a spade a spade ." So in other words, it's not to help the city women or anybody else but it's to help the manufacturers who sell the margarine. And as Manitoba exported 10 million pounds of butter in 1960 and brought in six and a quarter million dollars, an import of eight million pounds of margarine oil cost the province one and a half million dollars, there, Mr . Speaker, you can see the difference in money.

And Manitoba has 60 butter manufacturers contributing to the economy of the province which, in other words, there are only two manufacturers of margarine and most of the margarine is manufactured by soap manu facturers . The honourable member says "denying freedom to the housewife" -- that means the city housewife. He also stated that he received letters from the farmers wanting cplouring the margarine. I am very reluctant to think that the farmers would write in and say that they want coloured margarine.

I don't doubt for one moment that some of the farmers buy margarine due to the fact that this is a cheaper spread, but they are not interested in colouring of margarine. And I happen to come from a rural area and I did not receive one letter stating that they want coloured margarine, and as far as denying the freedom, well one day we are depriving the freedom of the city wife, individual wife, and then we are taking away the freedom which I think in my opinion I am sure, that you are taking the freedom aw:�y from more people in Manitoba than that city wife.

Is it more important to have colouring in the kitchen or cash in the pocket of the very people who produce food and which is most palatable and most healthful in Manitoba or the country as a whole? Mr . Speaker, last sessio n when I said that one of my relations was told by the doctor not to use margarine if they want to stay healthy -- here we go again! So some of the membeit> thought it was very funny, which is not so funny in my own opinion, and the Minister of Health even thought I was ••.•• on the wrong foot.

However, I have procured here some evidence that possi bly maybe I can convince even the Minister of Health, which he is my colleague for tonight, at least on this question, Mr . Speaker, I have here a clipping of October, 19 60, and February 28th, 1961 Page 341 I I

(Mr. Wagner, cont'd.) .•.• • that Voice of the Farmer, and this is what they have to say: "Death -D ealing Margarine" -- "Besides threatening the dairy industry, margarine apparently can be a threat to life itself . From the Netherlands recently came a report that two deaths were believed to have resulted from consumption of a new brand of margarine. Earlier the Dutch Health Ministry had issued a warning against use of the margarine after complaints that it caused a skin disorder and fever ." I have a fever myself ..•. "While the matter is under investigation all stocks have bee:::�. withdrawn from the market.

But tens of thousands of people were under treatment for skin irritation and general indisposition believed to have resulted from use of the lethal margarine, according to the Health Ministry." Therefore, Mr. Speaker, it could happen here in Manitoba. (Interjection) Dutchland . That's fine; the boys are charg ing me whe re that happened. Do you know that Russia today would explode its bomb, and don't quote me wrong •.• and it would destroy the whole world? It would have effect on Canada, too? However, Mr. Speaker, I just enjoy the laughter of the honourable members; I am enjoying with them myself.

"Dutch Margarine Causes Epidemic " -- do I pronounce it right? Aug .3l st, 1960 Free Press . ''THE HAGUE -M ore than 10 0, 000 Dutch people, mainly young women" - and the Honourable Member for Wellington, he was always referring himself to women - ''More than 100, 000 Dutch people, mainly young women, are suffering from a severe skin irri tation resulting from eating Planta margarine, " Dutch Health Inspector, Pieter Muntendam said Tuesday. "Some 60, 000 of them are in hospital , but no deaths have occurred since two fatal cases were reported Sunday. A few dozen cases were reported to be serious .

The health ministry said the current itching plague is identical to the 'blister epidemic' in Germany in 1958 ." Just wonder whether it's itching all over the body. "The Unilever Company has dis closed that Margarine Union GMBH -- The Unilever branch in Germany -- marketed am arga rine brand there in. 1958 which contained a similar element to that which is presumably the cause of the itching plague in Holland . No one in 1958 thought of connecting the blister plague with the use of margarine, the ministry said in Tuesday's announcement.

" Do I substantiate my last ses sion speech (Interjection) -- and it may happen here in Manitoba or Canada, Mr. Speaker . I just want to re-iterate myself again, and in closing I would ventrue to say this, that even myself receiving a happy Valentine's Day from the Honourable Member for Wellington and he says here, "Says Mr. Sunflower, how will you vote? For yellow margarine, I hope ." Well that was very nice hospitality from his side that he sent me this beautiful envelope and -- oh I meant the valentine card -- also I notice in the newspaper here, The Co-operator .

I don't know how many city people get the Co-operator, or the members of this legislature , but the farmers are getting it, practically every house, and here is a whole page of advertising . The honour able member for Wellington is encouraging the women and the men, I suppose -- I add in the men, but he refers himself to the women -- ''What is your answer to Mr. Seaborn?" it says, -- "Feb. 16th, 196 1. Mr. Seaborn's letter: Sir: I shall pres ent a bill to remove the ban on factory-coloured margarine at the session of the legislature starting February 14 .

I'll need the support of the women of Manitoba to get this bill accepted ." You men don't count. "Last sessi on it was defeated by a single vote. More than one member told me: "If the women would write and wire members the way the dairy and butter interests do, you would win easi ly ." Would you be good enough to write to me at my home ." and he states the address here, ''if you are interested in being able to buy margarine pre-coloured yellow? If we work together we can have coloured margarine by June, and thus end the nuisance of colouring it in the kitchen .

Winnipeg - Richard Seaborn, MLA." Now this began an answer by Joint Agricultural Producers Committee of Manitoba, that means for whole Manitoba farmers - "Colour in the kitchen - or cash for the farmer?" This is the answer: "This letter recently appeared in a number of Manitoba newspapers . Mr. Seaborn, termed the 'violin-playing politician' by one paper, is asking the coloured margarine supporters to write in to support his proposed bill to l!llow factory coloured margarine, similar to butter.

He promised them yellow-coloured margarine by June if they co-operate , regardless of the damage to your pocketbook or the effect on every one in town or country whose livelihood depends on agriculture" and so on. Theref ore, Mr. Speaker, as far as I am concerned and in my own opinion, the honourable member, he is very us eful in advertising and he is pretty -- how would I use the parliamentary word for -- persis tent, and if he would use his influence on better social allow ances , housing, old age pensions Page 342 February 28th, 1961

(Mr. Wagner, cont'd.) •.••• he would be a great asset to the government and to this side of the House too . He also stated that he received an enormous amount of letters . I, too, have an enormous amount of letters and resolutions and petitions, and I can table them if it is so desired, but in closing, Mr . Speaker, I would like to read one more letter, and this is a letter that is only a memorandum to me.

As I understand, this letter was forwarded to our Honour able Premier of Manitoba, and these people are throwing themselves upon the Premier of Manitoba, the Leader of the Conservative Party, the leader of Manitoba people , this is what they are saying to the Honourable Premier of Manitoba. "MLA for Fisher Constituency, Mr. Wagner: A special meeting of Chatfield local 179 MFU", that's Manitoba Farmer's Union, "w.as held on February 3rd, 1961, for the prupose of discussing the colouring of margarine. It was resolved that the above local is opposed to the colouring of margarine the same colour as butter,

whereas we solemnly believe that if margarine is coloured the same as butter in many cases the marg arine will be served as butter. This will greatly undermine the sale and consumption of butter, and at the same time it will cut our livelihood in this district, as all of us depend on the cream cheque which is our only major cash source for our daily need ." And I pause here , Mr. Speaker, as the Interlake country, as the Minister of Health very well knows, that it is the basic industry of the farmer . "Cer tainly , Mr .

Richard Seaborn, MLA, has served notice that he will again introduce a bill for the remov al of the ban which prohibited the yellow colouring of margarine by the factory. For the above reasons we are urgirg our MLA, l'VIr. Peter Wa,oner, and our Premier of Manitoba, Honourable Duff Roblin, to make a strong pre sentation to their colleagues, and when the time comes when this bill will be brought up before the Members of the Assem bly for the vote, therefore we are whole-heartedly asking you gentlemen to uphold the ban of yellow colouring of margarine by the factory. Moved by Mr .

Nick ... .•.• • , seconded by Fred .•...... that this request be sent to the above mentioned people; carried unanimously . Secretary - John .• •..•• , President - Char lie ..•.... . .. . " Therefore, Mr. Speaker, in closing I again appeal to the Premier of Manitoba, the Leader of the p·eople of Manitoba, these people have such faith in the Premier of Manitoba that they feel that he should have that power to influence and save the dairy industry in Manitoba. Thank you ! MR. PETERS: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Brokenhead, that the debate be adjourned. Mr .

Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried . MR. SPEAKER: Second Reading of Bill No . 22 . The Honourable Member from Morden Manitou. MRS. CAROLYNE MORRISON (Pembina) presented Bill No . 22,

An Act to validate By-Law No . 5-61 of the Town of Morden and an Agreement between the Town of Morden and Canadian Canners Limited, for second reading. Mr . Speaker presented the motion . MR . SPEAKER: Did the Honourable Member wish to speak? MRS. MORRISON: Well, this bill validates an agreement covering the sale of water by the Town of Morden to Canadian Canneries Limited, but I have discussed this matter with the l.VIinister of Agriculture and Conservation and he has certain rese rvations regarding this bill but will not oppose it going into committee . Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Committee of Supply. MR. JOHNSON (Assiniboia}: Mr . Speaker, I crave the indulgence of the House for the introduction of a class of students from Kirkfield Park. Do I have that? Mr . Speaker, imme diately to your left in the first gallery are a bunch of students -- around 24, I believe -- Grade XI from Westwood School, which is located in Kirkfield and belongs to the Assiniboia North Division . These pupils are accompanied by Mr. Pete Thiessen and Mr . Don A very, both his tory instructors . Mr.

Speaker, many groups of students have graced this Chamber since it opened recently, and on each occasion the introducer fittingly gave fitting remarks as to the quality of the students they were introducing. I, myself, Mr. Speaker, have great pride tonight in introducing to you this very fine group of young ladies and gentlemen from the fastest growing municipality in the Metropolitan area. Indeed, Mr .

Speaker, I would like to say that in spite of the brief pause in home construction, that pause does not affect Assiniboia because they are still going apace out there, taking out basements and constructing homes even at the February 28th, 196 1 Page 343 I I

(Mr. Johnson, Assiniboia, cont'd .) •..•. the present time . I particularly and personally want to thank Mr. Thiessen and Mr . A very for arranging this visit tonight. And I trust that this visit tO you young folks will be both instructive and educa� ional. Thank you ! :MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. :MR.

SPEAKER: Would the Honourable· Member for St. Matthews please take the Chair . MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, before we begin the work in Committee tonight, I'd like to advise the members that I now have this table that I undertook to produce, giving the numbers of staff in the various sections of the government, so that this information may be available .

I should point out, Sir, that this is the relatively permanent staff, the full time staff --it doesn't include figures, for example, for holiday relief or sick relief or summer assistance or part time employees and that sort, which are not usually considered in this classification in any case . But I wanted to just give the committee that information and I would ask the officers of the House to distribute this table now so that members may have it . MR. CHAIRMAN: Department No . IV, Item 3 and vote 17 . MR.

EVANS : Well if I may refer back to some questions that were asked me last day and provide the answers, the Honourable Leader of the CCF Party asked me for a statement in connection with the changes in fees within the Department of the Provincial Secretary and they are as follows: Supplementary letters patent of joint stock companies, change of name, was $25.0 0, now $50 .0 0; Amending letters patent or supplementary letters patent and correcting errors, was $5 . 00, now $10.0 0.

Corporations v.rithout capital stock, letters patent, was $50 .0 0 now $10 .0 0 -- might note a reduction in that case -- the cost of notice in the Manitoba Gazette as set by the Gazette tariff was the actual cost at Gazette rates but is now $1. 30_. That consti tutes a reduction. Supplementary letters patent, was $25 .0 0 now $5 .0 0. Approval of amending by-laws, was $5 .0 0 now no fee. Fees for community development corporations same as for co-operative associations . Registration of corporation security, certificate of previous registration for the first page was $2 .0 0, now $4.0 0.

For each additional page after the first page , now $2 . 00, was 10 cents for each folio of 100 words over 300 . Copy of any mortgage charge assignment, affidavit discharge, debenture or other documents, the first page was $2 . 00, now $4. 00; for each additional page after the first page now 50 cents used to be for each 100 words over 200, 10 cents. Miscellaneous proceedings, filing and annual returns for the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1959 or for any subsequent year, where there is no authorized capital, was $2 . 00, now $2 .00.

Where the authorized capital does not exceed $100 ,0 00 was $2 .0 0 now $5 .0 0. Where the authorized capital exceeds $100, 000 but does not exceed $250, OOO,.was $3 . 00, now $10 .0 0. Where the authorized capital exceeds $250 ,0 00 but does not exceed $1, 000, 000 it was $5 . 00, now $15 .0 0. Where the authorized capital exceeds $1, 000, 000 was $10 .0 0, now $25 .0 0. Filing any special return required by the Provincial Secretary was $10. 00 now $10 . 00 . Certified copy of or extract from any document, the first page was $3 .0J, now $3.00.

For each page after the first page is now 50 cents, was 10 cents for each folio of 100 words or over 300 . Credit Union's Act, letters patent, was $1 .0 0 now $5 .00. Manitoba Evidence Act, Commissioner for Oat hs, fee for appointment was $3. 00, now $5 .00. Notary Public fee for appointment was $10 .0 0 now $25 .0 0. Commissioner for Oaths , fee for renewal of appointment was $1 .0 0, now $2 .00. Notary Public fee for renewal of appoint ment was $2 .0 0, now $5 .0 0. Now my Honourable Friend the Member for Carillon is not in his place, but doubtless he can get the information from Hansard.

He asked me about the amount of work done by the Queen's Printer with his own equipment and his own staff in comparison with that done by outside firms . For the year ending March 31st, 1960, printing by private firms $803, 724 .5 9, by Queen's Printer at cost $131, 388 .77. stationery supplies $198, 860 .43; miscellaneous orders to private firms $501, 823 .4 0; Manitoba Gazette, sales and advertising - doubtless this is the revenue which accrues to the Queen's Printer from the sale of the Manitoba Gazette and the advertising-- amounted to $39, 134 .23 .

If the honourable member wants a f<lrther explanation on that figure I'll be glad to get it for him . This purports to be a statement of the amount of printing work done by the Queen's Printer and yet the words here are given for me as "sales and advertising". If he wants a fu.rther explanation I'll be glad to give it to him . Page 344 February 28th, 1961

(Mr . Evans, cont'd .) •.... This further note is added. Dollar value of output of the printing plant has decreased because the operation has been expanded without increasing staff in the field of electronics, ma iling and addres sing where the cost of stock is not reflected in the prices charged to the departments . stationery has increased in dollar volume because of standardization of a number of stock item s.

For example , the two million envelopes previous ly purchased in sma ll lots are now bought in bulk orders and sold through stationery; formerly those sma ll lots were bought direct by the individual departments . Incidentally, this creates an average saving of roughly $6,00 per thousand, or a total yearly saving of approximately $12, 000 . Envelopes alone increased our stationery sales by around $30, 000 .

Miscellaneous orders show a normal increase in orders processed by our office for departments , orders for advertising, subscriptions, typewriter and office ma chine servicing and any misc ellaneous items not carried in stock. Then with respect to the question of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, it is correct to say that both the bulletin heading s and the informa tion bulletins themselves are printed by the Queen's Printer on his mvn equipment . There was a question - I'm not sure if it was my honourable friend the Leader of the CCF -- about the number of bankruptcies .

In any event, whether I have the correct question or not, the following is the informa tion; It 's under the Bankruptcy Act which is a federal statute , but information was received from the Receiver in Bankruptcy Mr . L. J. C. Elliott , for the calendar year 19 60. He receive 10 petitions in bankruptcy ; 3 proposals in bankruptcy; 30 assignments in bankruptcy, for a total of 43 items -- they're called 43 pockets as I understand . Those are the replies to the questions, Mr . Chairman, that I had not been able to answer last day . MR. M. A. GRAY (lnkster) : Mr .

Chairman, there is one raise in fees which perhaps concerns me, and I think it concerns a lot of people , and this is raising the fee from $2 5. 00 to $50.0 0 for change of names . MR. EVANS: I wonder if I could explain to my honourable friend that that's the change of the name of a company, not of an individual person . It isn't like a private individual chang- ing his name. .. MR. GRAY: What is it in the case of change of name of individual person? MR . EV ANS: I'll see if I can find that for my honourable friend . It was not changed. It's the same as it has been.

The question that was asked me at the time was what has been the changes in the fees during the last year, and I have just read out the changes . If my honourable friend wishes me to get a separate return on that I' ll be glad to get it for him . I haven't it at hand at the mom ent . MR. GRAY: What I have in mind, Mr. Chai rman, is this, that change of names is not a luxury, if there is no ulterior motive behind it, and I think it may be a good thing . We have names that have 30 letters, 35 letters , and by perusing the Ga zette you'll find them the re, and I think this should not be discouraged.

There is something else, that the work, even the affidavit, that he makes up must go to a lawyer, and of course the lawyers are not here to do charitable work either, so -- well, we�ll discuss it when we speak about the public at torneys , so we 'll probably mention it . But I think that the expense is quite heavy, and if some la·wyers could do it free tha t's perfectly all right , but r-say the average lawyer -- I have a lot of respect for the ancient and legal profession, but nevertheless I feel that it should be encouraged by the way, and not discouraged.

Once they make up their minds that they 're going to live in Ca nada and stay here for their lives, and the children are born and educated, become professionals - they are not compelled to do it but if anybody wishes to do it, I think all the encouragemen t should be given to them . MR. T .P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Mr . Chairman, would the honourable minister advise the House how many notaries there are in Manitoba with renewable appointments ? MR . EVANS: Not off-hand, Mr . Chairm an, but I'll get it for him if he cares to .... How many notaries with renewable appointments ?

I'm told by the Attorney-General there aren't too many . Does th at answer your question? MR. IDLLHOUSE : I just wante d to find out whether there is any increase or decrea se. MR, LYON: A very sma ll increas e. As I recall, only one or two in my experience have been appointed who were not barristers . I think that 's the point you're getting at . MR. EVANS: Does my honourable friend still wish a special question asked on this ? I'l l get the inform ation and bring it back. February 28th, 1961 Page 345 I I

MR. HRYHORC ZUK: Mr . Chairman, before you proceed, if I may, the First Minister was kind enough to give us a list of the civil servants, that's employees of the government, and yesterday he told us that the new list included casual and temporary employees which were not included in previous estimates . I'd like to ask the following question: Could we have the total number of the casual or temporary employees that are included in this list? That is question number one.

Question number two: - Could we be told how you could forecast the number of casual empl oyees or temporary employees that are going to be hired in the coming '61 -'62 year? MR. ROBLIN: Mr . Chairman, I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear to my honourable friend . The temporary employees are included in the figures that he has before him now, because there has been a reclassi fication, or a renaming -- let's put it that way -- of the various categories that used to be recognized in the civil service .

When we brought in the new Civil Service Act last year the category of temporary employee was wiped out, and all employees are now permanent. Therefore they're all in the list that my honourable friend is looking at. The people who are not, are perhaps -- in the gaols for example, when holiday time comes along , they have to hire a few casual replacements for a couple of weeks to take the place of the warder when he is away.

Those items are not in there, and as a rule they're not counted for by number; there's a sum of $500 .0 0, called assistance usually or something like that, that takes care of these casual people . I'm sure if my honourable friend remembers when he was' preparing estimates he'll recall the type of thing that I mean, but I believe the figure he has before him now is the actual number of people who are on full time employment for whom money is being asked in these estimates. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr.

Chairman, when the First lVJ.inister says full time employment then they are no longer temporary employees in the sense that we understood them to be previously . Is that correct? But can he tell me how many that new definition has added to this list? MR . ROBLIN: Well I can't Sir, but if the honourable member will look at the return of the Civil Service Commis sioner that was placed before him yesterday I think that does give the full picture . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 19 passed . MR. CAMP BELL: Mr . Chairman, I ..... MR. EVANS: •.•... we come to the item of the Civil Service Commission?

A MEMBER: I thought we were on that all the time. MR. EVANS: No, we really weren't. MR. CHAIRMAN : (

b) passed .•.. MR. EVANS: I think we're on item 17 , Mr. Chairm an. I have been answering questions . on ...... MR. CHAIRMAN : .•.•. the honourable members asked of the Civil Service Commiss ion . MR. EVANS: I take it we're dealing with Resol ution 17 , is that correct? MR. CHAIRMAN : .. •... That's all right. Passed. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, on the item 17 , is it possible to receive annually a list of the regulations which are contained or appended to the Manitoba Gazette each week separate from the Gazette itself ?

I know that I have difficulty sometimes with a whole flock of papers around and I'm wondering whether or not these regulations are available annually in total . MR. EVANS: Mr . Chairman, it is pos sible . I understand that these are -- the regula tions are all published in a separate volume now, and they are availa ble, and I'm sure my honourable friend can get one by applying to the Clerk of the House for it.

I'd like to mention that speaking of these regulations and publishing them separately, that it is proposed to make a substantial cash saving in printing the Gazette this coming year by first of all collapsing some of the white space out of the pages reducing the number of pages in the Gazette; and second, and what brought it to my mind, was to print the regulations themsel ves in the office of the Queen's Printer but merel y attach them to the· appropriate copy of the Gazette and mail them out together . That will be a considerable saving in printing cost but will preserve the main form of the Gazette itself.

We had considered having the entire thing printed by the Queen's Printer, but decided that when outsiders were paying a fee for having it printed in a certain form and they were used to having it printed that way, that we would continue to give them the old type-set Page 346 February 28th, 1961

(Mr . Evans, cont'd .) .. ••. form and merely attach our own regulation. It is e;,.1Jected in that way to reduce the cost of -- in those two ways to reduce the cost of the Manitoba Gazette by an amount of $4, 263 .8 7 in the coming year . And the estimates reflect a reduction in that amount. Not in that amount; they do reflect some reduction . MR. CHAIRM AN: Pa ssed . Item 4 Civil Service Commissi on .... MR. EVANS: Mr . Speak er, if I might have my honourable friend's permission, I would like to sa y something on this item .

I think it can be said that the past year in administering the Civil Service has been one of harmony and of progress in a good ma ny ways . The new Civil Service Act which was passed a year ago is working well, and it has brought, 1 think, satisfaction, not only to the Civil Service Commission itself but to the employees as well; that the right of appeal has been .given to the employee at any stage at which he is under suspension or at which his case is being investigated by the Civil Service Commission itself. I should note that the regulations under the Act have been prepared and are now ready .

This is a com plicated business to draw regulations under any Act and we have had the full co-opera tion and valuable as sistance of the Manitoba Government Employees Associa tion themselves in helping us to frame regulations under the Act which would be satisfactory and also acc eptable to them . Honourable Members will know that during the year we instituted a Group Insurance Plan for Civil Servants and for members of the Legislature and members of the Ministry .

The new plan for superannuation has been developed in the past year, and we will pres ent to the legislature an amendment to the Superannuation Act very shortly. It would be my suggestion, Mr. Chair man that in discussing this item I would ask that this item stand until we are able to introduce the legislation itself and then have the whole ma tter in front of us at one time . I would just give this very short word of eX{ianation that the Government Employees Associa tion requested the government for a review of the benefits that they received under the Superannuation Fund .

Making the statement of their view that they were not getting the same proportionate advantages out of the Superannuation Fund of Manitoba as was being received by civil servants under other superannuation funds elsewhere . They asked the government to provide an actuary to investi gate the fund to determine whether or not the ma ximum benefit was being received . The government agreed ·to this and asked the Government Employees Asso ciation themselves to choose an actuary, which they did, entirely on their own .

The actuaries who made the investi gation are the Mercer Company, and at the conclusion of these remarks I shall hand to my honourable friends several copies - - I have 3 or 4 copies here -- of the report submitted in this connection . The report was made to the Joint Commi ttee of Joint Council, that is to say a Committee of Joint Council representing both the government and the employees, and they were able to work out increased benefits for all members of the Superannuation Fund both those who have retired and are receiving pension payments and those who will retire in the future.

This ma tter was mentioned in the Speech from the Throne . The legislation is ready and - - it is nearly ready , I should say, and we hope to table it very shortly, and if agreeable to the House, I th.ink I did mention a moment ago, with permission we would allow this item to stand so we would have both the item of the estimates on which to discuss it and then of course, all the stages of the bill itself.

With regard to the matter of pay, it will have been noted that in the Throne Speech and in the estimates there is an allo wance for increased pay for members of the civil service but it is more appropriate for the Provincial Treasurer to deal with that, presuma bly under Item XV, the last item in the estimat es . My honourable friend, I think it was from ste . Rose, or was it, who asked about the pay cheques. My understanding is that deductions are noted on the stubs of the pay cheques with the exception ma inly of casua l workers and certain clas es .

That is rapidly being accomplished and the men of the civil service are being paid now every two weeks, or when the process is completely thrown oYer, all the members of the civil service will be paid every two weeks instead of as formerly, the ladies being paid every two weeks and the men only once a month. The classification and reclassification of positions has been improved during the year .

Two new technical employees have been taken on staff for this purpose because it was found that there were conside rable numbers and several large classes of employees whose duties should be re-examined to see whether they have taken on more responsibilities or more difficult work, or alternatively whether their work has declined. It was found nec�ssa ry to increase the civil service staff for this purpose; the employees have February 28th0 . 1961 • I Page 347

(Mr. Evans, cont1 d.) •.•.. been secured; and they are being trained, and this work load is now being overtaken. During the year there was a very satisfactory development in what is termed In-Service Training.

This is a move which I would like to pause to say was originated, at least within my experience, by the Manitoba Government Employees Association themselves, who said that their duty did not stop with merely being able to run their own affairs and conduct a bargaining operation with the _government from time to time, but they had a duty to continue to improve the service and the qualifications that they have for their own jobs, and this process has been going forward .

The Civil Service Commission together with the assistance of the Government Employees Association and the University of Manitoba conducted lecture courses for senior administrators last year . Some 35 senior administrators took these courses, which series of lectures -- and I have a list of them here if any honourable member would like to hear further details -- provides a very substantial course in the matter of the government system in Canada and certain background information which senior administrators should have .

There is a policy in existence of In-Service scholarships permi tting people at the professional level and also, if I am right, nurses, to leave their employment long enough to take university training and receive further qualifications.

This is conducted under two headings; if the employee is asked to take these courses at the request of the government, they are given their pay and allowances and expenses; if, on the other hand they are not requested to do so by the government and the government cannot agree that this is necessary for the discharge of the duties for which they are employed, it is nevertheless made possible for them to take this further training, but they do so very largely at their own expense. I think it should be noted that the move of the civil servants of the Norquay Building was accomplished extre.mely smoothly.

I don't know how many of the me mbers of the committe e will have been in the building or have been trying to transact business with the government offices during the period of the move, but, in my opinion, it was accomplished extremely smoothly. Files and systems were moved, telephone systems were removed and changed, and one hardly noticed any handicap to the conduct of business . That was my experience .

I've been through a number of large mov es in the army and other places, but I don't think I ever saw anything accomplished with better planning and less interruption, and I think a tribute should be offered to the Department of Public Works, with the officers who arranged the accommoda tion and the Department of Organization and Methods under the Treasury Branch, who had responsibility for the general planning. I think there was great skill and patience displayed in this work and the government would like to thank all concerned in that move .

During the year we had the misfortune to lose the services of the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, Mr . Brian Dickson, Q. C. Mr . Dickson has contributed literally con� tributed, eight years of very hard work to the service of the Civil Service Commission bringing to those duties very considerable skill and ability, particularly in the lines of administration, of the proce dures by which a civil servant is -- I was going to say given a trial but that is not the right term -- where his appeal is heard in any cases of suspension of dismissal or discip line. Mr .

Dickson took very great pains in that field to assure that procedures were set down which safeguarded the interests of the individual employee who might be subject to suspension or discipline. But not only in that; it was during his time that the Civil Service Act was re drafted and the new regulations were brought into being, and this is a matter of very considerable detail work and Mr .

Dickson gave unsparingly of his time and of his very con�;Jider able talents , because he is one of the leading barristers and solicitors· of Winnipeg and Western Canada, and I think that we must all consider ourselves fortunate to be able to attract into the public service or to the service of the public, men of his ability, men who not only refused any form of remuneration at all during the eight years that he was there, but who must surely have passed up many opportunities to advance his own interests in other ways, and so, I would like to voice grateful thanks to Mr .

Dicks on at this time for his unflagging, skillful and devoted services to the Province of Manitoba. · I am sorry it is not possible for me to announce at this time that a replacem ent for Mr . Dickson has been found. I am not in a position to announce that at the present time . Nevertheless we are actively concerned about this matter . It is difficult for me to find new ways to say what I think of the civil servants of Manitoba. I have in this Chamber from both sides expressed what to me is a very deep conviction and a Page 348 February 28th, 1961

(Mr . Evans, cont'd .) ••••• very real feeling that we are the most fortunate of governments in the way in which we are served . I have had some little opportunities to see civil services in other areas .

During my time as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, I did attend the Civil Service Assembly in the United states, had the opportunity to talk to other Civil Service Commissioners down there and people of equivalent office, and when describing the individual civil servant and the spirit with which he works and his devotion to the work, the energy that he displays, the skill, and I was almost going to say above all the cheeriness and good humour with which they undertake, very often, difficult tasks far into the night and w�ll beyom the hours called for, I found very little parallel in other jurisdictions that I talked to or with whom I compared notes.

And so I want to pause at this moment to acknowledge very sincerely the loyal and skilled and hard-working services of the members of the Civil Service of Manitoba. Now with those few introductory remarks, Mr . Chairman, I should be happy to try to answer questions as they come. • ••••••... continued on next page . February 28th, 1961 Page 349 •

MR . CAMPBELL: Mr . Chairman, I am sure that all of us have enjpyed the brief review the the Honourable the Minister has given us . I certainly would join with him in ex pressing appreciation for the "work that Mr. Brian Dickson, Q. C. , devoted to his position as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission. I might say that in the dedicated service that he gave th ere , and quite outstanding service , he was simply succeeding the first Chairman of that Commission in that capacity who was the Honourable Minister who has just spoken to us.

One of the pleasures that I get in recalling ancient history in the field of public administration is that our government had the pleasure of asking the honourable gentleman, who is now the Mini ster of Industry and Commerce and also the Provincial Secretary, to assume that job in the very first place and he, too, gave very outstanding service then. Then it was the same government, when the chairman found it neces sary to retire to enter other fields of servi ce , that also had the pleasure· of asking Mr.

Brian Dickson if he would accept the appointment, which he did, and certainly the high tradition of devoted service was carried on complete. So the Minister and I are in complete agreement on that particular score . We are as well, I am sure , in regard to the Civil Service in general. I think that Manitoba is fortunate in the high quality of its per manent civil servants. I sometimes think it is a good idea that they are , with the people that they have to work with; but whatever our thoughts about the ones with whom they work, the permanent civil se rvants themselve s, I am sure, have a very high capacity.

Now the question I would like to ask of the Honourable the Minister Mr . Chairman, is one that will not surprise you, because I would like to ask him if he can give us figures of approximately the number of civil servants that have been added to the public service since the present government assumed office.

That's one of the things that my "honourable friend knows that I am quite interested in, and I think the growth of the Civil Service , along with the growth of the services generally, is something that invariably will accompany a move into larger and more fields of ende.avour by the gove rnment; and that has ce rtainly, so far as my observation and investigations are concerned, that certainly has happened here .

Now I know from what the Honourable the First Minister has already said this evening, and on other occasions , that it isn't so easy to compare the figures because of this question of permanent and part-time civil servants , casual employment and time certificate and the other ones; but surely we can find some basis of comparison. The Honourable the First Minister was able to give us a pretty definite statement as to the numbers that are now on the various departments .

Could we get an estimate from the Minister of approximately the number that were on , let us say -- we couldn't expect to get March 31 st . 1958 or we couldn't expect to get June 30 th,- 1958 , but could we get the Minister's best estimate of the end of 1957 and the present time . What I am after, quite frankly, is the increase in the civil servants . I expect it is large and I would like to know the exact number. Can the Minister come close to it ? MR . EVANS: I can't from the papers that are in front of me now, Mr .

Chairman, but I should be glad to get the information for the Honourable Leader of the Opposition who has really called one limitation of mine, which I would have thought to mention, and that is this change between the temporary and the permanent civil servants . I shall do my best to give the most complete statement on a comparable basis between those two dates. MR . CAMPBELL: Now, Mr .

Chairman, in order to assist the Minister , I would like to give first my own calculations and I recognize how difficult it is, too , to get exactly compara ble figures, but I tried to take them from the return that was laid on our desks -- was it yes terday -- the Civil Service Commission Report for the calendar year , and I am glad to see that it is for the calendar year 19 60, so I have taken that document, and on page 12 of it, the totals ·a re given:

Schedule B - total number of Civil Service employees at year end -- and the year end, December, 1958 , the total number is given as 4,4 17 ; at year end of 1960 , it is given as 5,2 01; and that would, with rough figuring, appear to be about 780 or 783 additions. And it happens that the 1957 report, instead of giving December, it gives Novemb.er 30th rather than December 31s t, and the number at that time was 4, 003 . Well if we compared that with the December, 19 60, it would appear to be almost 1, 200 of an increase .

But I was conscious of the pos sible differences and the methods of listing these Civil Servants and so I checked as well with the Manitoba Civil Service Superannuation Fund Report , and I find there that if we take the comparisons between the end of 1958 , not 1957 , the end of 1958 and the end of 1960 , that so far as the Civil Service and the Superannuation Fund, there appeared to be approximately 1, 069 Page 350 February 28th, 19 61.

(Mr. Campbell , cont' d.) ....• additio ns . Now those are the best estimates that I can give at the moment from my limited research es, but I would appreciate it if the Minister would get the best figure that he can for us and on the most comparable basis . MR . EVANS: Mr. Chairman , I would be glad to do as I indica ted and do the best I can. I would like to offer one or two comments on what the Honourable the Lea der of the Opposi tion has just said .

In the first place , at the end of last year it beca me compulsory to join the Superannuation Fund; and for that reason, I think, it would not be a correct index of increase in total staff to take the rise in the numbers of people on the Superannuation Fund. Then if he had continued to read on at the botto m of page 12 , where he took his figures, he would see: "With the coming into force of the Civil Service Act on March 26, 1960 , the old cate gories of establishe d and provisional employees disa ppeared. All full time continuing employees are now simply termed ' Civil Servants'.

The figures shown for 19 60, therefore, give the number of Civil Servants occupying established positions and include more than 1, 000 former provi sional employee s. All persons employed since March 26th, occ upying estab lished posi tions on a continuing basis , have also of course been employed as Civil Servants with no temporary provi sional status for their permanent appointment. " For these reasons the figures for 1960 are not comparable with tho se for 1958 and 1959 , and the former

Schedule C has been deleted from the report; but a column has been adde d to this table indica ting Ci vil Servants occupying esta blished positions . I thought I should continue on from where my-honourable friend left off and read the footnote s that he did not include in his remar ks. MR . CAMPBEL L: Mr . Chairman , I read that part as well , but I took it that the dif ference to which those footnote s allude s would be the righthand colu . .1nn on page 12 , where we find Civil Servants in established jo bs, December, 19 60.

I would suggest to the Minister that that is the column which the report indica tes is not comparable with the othe r ones, rather than the third column on that sheet. MR . EVANS: ..•.. .... is to all the columns, but I will try and sort it out. MR . CAMPBELL: I had noticed that , and consequently I, of course , did not use the right hand column because it seemed to me that the remarks applied to it. However , Mr . Chairman , with the undertakLng of the Minister that he will try and bring these figures before us , tha t's the best we can do at the moment. MR. EVANS: Tha t's the best ic an do . I'll try . MR .

PAUL LEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to join in the tribute paid to Mr. Brian Dickson who , unfortunately , is leaving as Civil Service Commissioner. I agree most heartily on this oc casion with the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition in a tribute to him and also to his predece ssor. As far as I am concerned, possi bly that is where the original commis sioner should have staye d; he was doing such a fairly good job there . I would like , Mr . Chair man, to also join in a tribute to the members of the Civil Service .

Dealing so frequently as they do with members of the House and the public generally, at times, I am sure that they are subjected to some criticism , but I do feel in general that they are doing a magnificent job on behalf of the people of the Province of Manitoba and I think any tribute is justly earned by our Civil Service here in the Province of Manitob a. I was very interested to hear the Minister's speech o r the Supe rannuation Fund, and I thank him for the copy of the report which he has just sent ac ; oss to me .

I haven't had an opportUnity of reading the same , of course , but I would ask the Honourable Minister, the Provincial Secretary, whether or not the government has given any consid eration to the question of portability of pensions to outsid e industrie s; but more particularl y to othe r jurisdictio ns , other governmental agencie s.

I think it is very desira ble that that might be achi eved because there is, particularly of recent years here in the Province of Manitob a, a considera ble amount of transferring from one jurisdict ion here to the Province of Manitob a; and I believe , also , some have left here to go to oth er jurisd ictions and I think that the portability of superannuation pension funds is a desira ble featu re. If it has not alre ady been taken under consideration by members opposite -- the government -- may I respectfully suggest that that should be done .

I also would app reciate receiving, if pos sible , from the Minister at his earlie st convenience , the new class ification of staff in order that we may appraise fully the class ifications in the different departments of the Civil Service as to their grade s and as to their salaries in their different grad es. I did have a copy of the old one some two or three years ago and I found it very informative, particularly when one is trying to February 28th, 19 61. Page 351 •

(Mr . Paulley , cont' d.) ..... assess the payment of wages to our Civil Se rvice in comparison to that of comparable positions in outside industry and in other jurisdictions. --(Interjection)- Yes. Also, Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether the government or the employe es have given any consideration to the que stion of the employe es in the Civil Service becoming organized into any association of Civil Service grou ps. It is my understanding that there is such an organization at the present time in respect of the Federal Civil Serv ice, that they have their own bargaining agencies and conduct their own affairs.

I also understand, Mr . Chairm an, that a similar situation prevails in the Province of Saskatchewan where there appears to be, and by this I mean both federally and in the Province of Saskatchewan, a greater amount of bargaining rights, shall I call them , between the Civil Service and the government . And I would like to ask the Minister whether a suggestion has come from the employee s or whether the government would consider the same if such a request was forthcoming from the employ ees. MR. EVANS: Mr .

Chairman , I would ask my honourable friend if perhaps he would clarify this reque st for me a little farther. You say "bargaining rights". Could he describe furthe r what he has in mind there ? MR. PAULLEY: Belonging to an organization of a Trade Union nature as differentiated from the association which we have here in the Province of Manitoba. I think that brief explana tion will give my honour able friend an indication of what I me an.

Whi le I pay tribute to the general situation in respect to our Civil Servants in Manitoba, and I do appreciate that to a considerable degree there is a good degree of friendly negotiations between the government and the employ ees, I want to point out to the Minister that one or two criticisms have been directed to me or brought to my attention, and from newspaper reports, maybe some substantiation in - the feelings of some of the mem bers of the Civil Service in respect of hiring in to departments people who have not been connected with the departments concerned.

I've had the complaint laid to me that on a num ber of occasions, rather than promotion being made within the Civil Service itself to senior positions , that the government has brought in so-called ou tsiders into the higher positions. And I would like to hear from the Minister to what degree that has taken place if, in fact, it is a trui sm . I'm glad to hear of the co-operation between the administra tion and the mem bers of the Civil Service in respect to in-service training. I'd be very inter ested to know, Mr .

Chairman, if the Minister can supply me with the information as to whether or not any of the departments of government award bursaries or scholarships to members in the staff in order that they may rece ive greater training outside of the government itself here in the Province of Manitoba, or in conjunction with our educational bodies here in the province . I think, Mr. Chairman, that's about all that I have at the present time.

I appreciate the fact that we will be discussing the que stion of the new setup on the superannuation fu nd, and by that time we hope to have read the report and got the information therefrom. In conclusion again, Mr . Chairman, at this stage at least, I again want to pay a high tribute to the calibre of the Civil Service here in the Province of Manitoba. MR. EV ANS: I thank my honourable friend for those remarks concerning the Civil Service which I will bring to their attention. The employ ees' portion of the supe rannuation fund is portable.

The government 's contribution to the Civil Service Fund is not portable. I shall try to get my honourable friend a copy of this classification manual of which he speaks. He's had a copy before , and I wasn't aware that there were additional copies, but I'll try. With regard to the association of civil services, it is my understanding - this is a matte r beyond my knowledge and control actually as this is a matter for the Manitoba Governm ent Employ ees Association themselves -- but I understand that this organization has indeed met · with other bodies of like character in the coun try.

I read from the Winnipeg Free Press , Sept ember 6, 1960 , "Provincial Civil Servants plan national federation; representatives of nine provincial employ ees associations met in Toronto last week to lay the groundwork for a national federation of government employe e organizations. Manitoba was represented at the meeting by A. J. Skeen, President of the Manitoba Government Employ ees Association and H. B. Hunte r; Executive Secretary. All provinces but Newfoundl and were represented." There is more but I think that's all the information that my honourable friend asked for.

With respect to belonging to a Trade Union, I've had no representations on this subj ect during my time in office. I think at the time that I was on the Civil Service Commission before, it was just a period when they had formed their own association outside of the union ranks, and Page 352 February 28th, 1961.

(Mr . Evans , cont'd. ) ..... I have heard no opinion expressed that the present arrangement is not satisfacto ry. That' s the only information I can give him on that point. With respect to employees being hired from outside , I don't think this is by any means typical . I think there have been a good many promotions from inside . The Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs was just appointed from inside .

We are making promotions from inside the organiza tion regarding Ci vil Defence, and the cases that I think of, are people with technical training or special qualifications who have been brought in to do specific jobs . I think of my own depart ment, for example , where few promotions were made from the inside , for some of the new people such, for example , as the Industrial Engineer on my staff. There was no engineer on the staff. It was not pos sible to promote him . Ce rtainly my own pre ference would be for promotions from within because of the morale factor with regard to the entire Ci vil Service .

I would incline to do that wherever possi ble. I can honestly say again that complaints in thi s regard have not been made to me . Now it may well be that my honourable friend has some cases that have not come to my attenti on. With regard to training bursarie s, I would like to tell him the conditions under which these training course s can be taken. Educational leave for study in university or technical insti tute may be granted either with or without pay or with allowances only , depending upon whether the course is required by the dep artment or the employee .

Depending upon the type of leave , the employee may recei ve full pay, tuit ion, travelling and other expenses . Where the employee requests leave to study , he may , if it is approved by the department and the Civil Service Commissi on , receive an allowance not to exceed $200 per month if single or $250 per month if married. In addition , tuition and travelling expense may be paid . This latter case , of course , is where the employee is not requested to do so by the government, nor does the government think it of sufficient practical advantage to him in his posi tion to war rant going further .

Where the employee wishes to take a course that , in the opinion of the department and the commission is not directly related to his work , he may be granted leave without pay. Some examples of the categories of employees taking advantage of this plan are : Public Health Engineers , Agricultur ists , Engineers in Public Works , and Medica l Officers. I have some more detailed regulations here under which these bursaries are granted, but those are the main condition s. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman , I thank the Minister for his answers .

I just want to ask him this question though in respect of portability of pension s. If I reca ll corre ctly , his answer to me was that insofar as the employee's share is concerned, that is if I got the Minister correctly , construed as being partially portable. May I suggest to him that that is not what I had in mind at all because I don't think, Mr . Chairman , a pension is portable at all if all that the employee receives is the amount of the contribution which he has made in to the fund.

What I envision as a portable pension is an arrangement whereby , and I suggest that this is a field, that is the field of the Civil Servi ce, where this can be quite practical through negotiation wi th other jurisdictio ns . My conception of a portable pension would be one by arrangement that the government contribution or the employer contribution as well as the employee contributi on would be able to follow him into his new employment into a new juri sdiction ; for after all , Mr.

Chairman, if all the employee is going to recei ve back from his superannuation fund is his own share , there certainly is no pension nor no portability in it. And I'm suggesting to the Minister that he can initiate here from the Province of Manitoba with the other legi slative bodie s, in this I'm thinking of provinc ial and federal , a plan whereby there is truly portability of pensions , particularly as I mentioned earlier in view of quite a number of transfers from one jurisd iction to the other.

And I earnestly and respectfully ask that the Minister do take this under considera tion and , again rei teratin g, the refund simply of the employee share is not simple enough because their length of service is of no use to them and I think that in the public service in the Dominion of Cana da , a scheme like this is quite feasible . It just needs somebody to start the ball rolling and I suggest to my honourable friend the Provincia l Secretary of the Province of Manitoba that he may well be the individual to start that . MR .

EV ANS: I can assure my honourable friend that we will keep this under review, and I mean this very since rely . It is a field of employee-benefit , if you want to put it that way, which is changing. I can recall the days, of course , when the re were no vesting of any kind , February 28th, 19 61. I I Page 353

(Mr . Evans , con t' d.) ...•. either the employees' portion or anybody else's. It has ad vanced this far; we will keep it under review . . MR . WAGNER : ......... when the Honourable Minister made the remarks to the Norquay Building. I would like to pass a comment , for what it is worth, but I visit often the Water Control Department and the Welfare Department and I find, in my own opinion, that those rooms are very small.

Nobody from the Civil Service complained to me , but I often bring a delegation of three or four into the Senior Engineering Department to discuss certain matters about drainage, and mind you, the re was not even a seat to sit down. There is not enough room in some rooms to sit down for four people, in spite of such a nice, beautiful building. But it is so crowded and the Welfare Department is crowded also, in those _rooms that I was , and I didn't tour the whole building. Parking facilities is nil . Sometimes I park my car at one hour meter or at a one hour parking lot .

I have to dash out and.take my car away, and furthermore the re is no parking space at all . So I would urge the Minister -- I don't know who arranged the rooms or anything like that -- but I would urge the Minister that these rooms should be more spacious. Possibly it could be rearranged, because actually, I come in one time myself and the poor secretary, she felt bad looking on me standing there and she went and wheeled out a chair, a steno's chair for me to sit down. Then there was another couple of Civil Servants in that room walking around and they had to practically over step my small feet.

What would have happened if it had been a big man ? So I just want to bring the attention that some of these departments are really crowded in that building. MR . REID: Mr. Chairman, I, too , would like to pay my respects to the Civil Ser vice . I believe we are quite fortunate in having personnel of such high calibre that we have . I don't know whether it is due to our stiff Civil Service examinations or what it is.

And out of a due respect to ·the Ministers, which I don't get very often to see , I think their Daputy Ministers are of very high calibre, intelligent and very high integrity; because I am quite sure that if it wasn't for the Deputy Ministers, that our Minister wouldn't be so happy and sit the re with all the answers, because I quite firmly believe it is due to the efforts of their Deputy Ministers . MR .

MOLGAT : Before we move on from the Civil Service Commission, would it be correct to say that all of the positions under the Civil Service Commission itself are , when vacancies come up , that they are handled by advertisement and open to all members of the Civil Service Commission plus outside rs who are interested in applying for the jobs. Is that correct, insofar as the Commission is concerned? MR. EVANS: Mr . Chairman, I think we must recognize one or two limitations he re and doubtless my honourable friend has them in mind.

The first is, with respect to Deputy Ministers , Assistant Deputy Ministers and Technical Officers, they do not come within the classification of Civil Servants and are not subject to appointment by the Civil Service Com mission as other employees are. Now with respect to every othe r position that is filled being advertised eithe r by bulletin or public advertisement, and I think that is pretty well my hon ourable friend's question. Ce rtainly that is the practice . Now there are occa sions when , it • is doubtless true , that some appointment will be made without a public advertisement.

It may be that the re is a bulletin only or an ad vertisement only , but certainly any position is appointed by the Civil Service Commission itself. There is no appointment made by the government itself in the classifications that I speak of. Now if my honourable fr iend --does that give a sufficiently -- I am trying to keep from making an absolute statement that every position on every occasion has been advertised by a public advertisement, because I am not aware whether it has been or not ; but certainly the practice is to do that . MR . GRAY: Mr .

Chairman, the Honourable Member from Fisher mentioned about small rooms when he goes into any department. Am I to understand that any MLA can go into any department for information? If so, why was certain information refused to me when I went to the Deputy Minister of Health and to the head of the Social Allowance Department? It is not your department to answer, but I just hope that somebody wou ld . MR . EVANS: Well I would be glad to answer my honourable friend with any informa tion that I had. I am not aware of the case that he has in mind and perhaps he should refer that to the department in question.

I am sorry that I am not able to answer the question. I didn't mean to answe r my honourable friend from Ste . Rose before dealing with the points that Page 35.4 February 28tli, 19 61.

(Mr . Evans , cont'd.) .••.• were raised by my honourable friend from Fisher. With respect to certain of the offices being crowded, this may well be true . It was a very larg e move and I hope that that may be made easier to adjust by the fact that the walls themselve s, as I under stand, are portable and can be adjusted. If the walls of the office s are found to be wrong, they can be unscrewed in some mysterious way and put together in another way and you have got a larger office. With respect to chairs, I am sure that is a matter than can be fixed by buying some more chairs .

But the problem of parking is a more difficult one . I think there is no doubt that we are faced with a major handicap with respect to parking at the Norquay Building. It was, I think, a matter of some 26 parking spaces that are available , and not only is this a very great handicap to the public who, after all , are entitled to reas onable acce ss to their own building to do business in the public sphere , but a very great handicap to the larg e number of Civil Servants who must leave the building, go about their duties and come and go.

Many of them have to use their car all day long and they have to stop at the building for ad ministrative purposes and it is a great handicap on the staff. This is a subject of study now and -- (Inter jection) -- yes , there was one parking lot. The First Minister just remmded me that about a block down and a block east on St . Mary' s, isn't it? --(Interject ion) -- Oh, York and Hargrave . There is a parking lot there which somewhat relieves the congestion, but I think we would all have to agree that there is still a very considerable problem there for parking. I have no solution for that in mind at the moment.

My honourable friend from Kildonan has, of course , put his finger right on the spot . If it weren't for our deputies, where would we be ? It would be only too true to say that any of us , if we appear to show any talent or poise or information at any given point, it is because we have been coached and prodded and supplied with informa tion and otherwise propped up in our places; and the only reason we are able to give any sort of a performance at all is because our staffs have stood behind us in such a way as they have. MR . HILLHOUSE : Mr.

Chairman , this may not be the place to bring it up, but it has been mentioned about the problem of parking and I realize that it is a real problem . I know that when you try to get into the Winnipeg Land Titles Office or the Law Courts you sometimes have to wander around for several blocks before you can fLTJ.d a place to park.

But I understand, and if I am wrong I can be corrected in this , but I underst and that it is the intention of the government to make a park site over there once the old university and other buildings are torn down; and if that is so , I wonder if the government would take under advisement the feasibility of having an underground parking site underneath the park . Now that is quite possible .

You take in San Francisco in Union Square , which is a very lovely square, they have parking facil ities there for several thousand cars and I think that site could be made available in the same way as Union Square in San Francisco is. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, we have considered that possibility . A study has been made of the project of putting an underground parking lot underneath the park , and the prelimi nary indications are that it is not economically feasible for us to do so at this time . Density of traffic just doesn't justify, so far as we can estimate , in centre Winnipeg at this moment .

We have, as my honourable friend mentioned however , purchased some other property that is fairly close to the new Administration Building which is available for public parking, and that goes some way toward alleviating the congestion. Some consideration has been given to alter natives to the ones I have mentioned, but I regret to say that there is nothing definite that I can announce at the present time . MR . MOLGAT : ....... again to the Ci vil Service positions that are open to, let's say application by anyone who is int erested.

I fully understand that there are a number of them that cannot be handled under the open bid system . I think this is a practice that was carried on before . It is certainly the practice in other ju risdictions , and I am not criticizing that part of it at all . I am only interested in knowing which ones are specifically in that category. Now I understood from the Minister that this was Deputy Ministers , Assi stance Deputy Ministers and Technical . Is that correct? MR . EV ANS: Technical Officers which are loosely defined as being the equivalent of Assist ant Deputy Ministers .

That was certainly the wording of the old Act , and I think the same classi fication is preser ved in the new. MR . MOLGAT : So we can accept it then , that on a normal basis it is Deputy Ministers , As sistant Deputy Ministers , or equivalents , that are not open to bid . Is that correct? February 28th, 19 61. • • Page 35 5

MR . EVANS: Yes. They are outside the regular Civil Service appointment machine . Has my honourable friend any particular case in mind that he would like to question? · MR. MOLG AT : My questions are going to follow , and again not a question of criticism just a question of information. The Executive Assistants -- now I understand that a number of these have been appointed and I am interested in knowing in which department they have been appointed and under what process they have been appointed. Once again I fully realize that these can all come under some other system than the bid system. MR .

EV ANS: I think that I should add, it occurs to me now, another classification of people who were not appointed through the Ci vil Service Commission. I should have had this in mind before , that is, the Minister's private secretaries. Those the Ministers felt entitled to appoint -- private secretaries and Executive Assistants -- :'Us personal entourage as it were . It has always been considered that he should have the ri ght to appoint those. But my honourable friend does point out another class that I should have recalled, the private secre tary and the Executive Assistant . MR .

MOL GAT : Could the Minister indicate to us now in whi ch departments there are Executive Assis tants; how many have been appointed; and are they anticipating the appointment of any further? MR . EV ANS: If you will leave the information with me I will be glad to get it for my honourable friend. MR . MOLGAT: I think there are also -- at least I can think of one case, it seems to me , where there is an Assi stant or Executive Assis tant to a Deputy Minister. Is that not correct? Now are there more than one of these , and do they come under the Civil Service Commissi on or not? MR .

EVANS: Well whether the term is Executive Assistant or not, I'm not aware . There are administrative officers whose main duties are to assist the Deputy Minister, and there is one such in my own department. He is , however, called an Administrative Officer . MR. GRAY: Mr . Chairman, are the private secretaries getting a new job with the change of a government? MR. EVANS: I think there were some changes. It is, I think, provided by statute , certainly by practice , that on the change of an administration the private secretary of a Minister is found appointment as a clerk-stenographer grade Ill.

There is little difference in salary between a private secretary to a Minister and a clerk-stenographer grade Ill; and it is correct to say that all of those who were in service at the time of the change of administration last, received other employment of a similar grade. MR . MOL GAT : Mr . Chairman , it seems to me that this question of the Civil Service Commi ssion is a most important one because we certainly pride ourselves in our Canadian system on a non-political Ci vil Service . I take it that all of 'lS , regardless of what si de of the House we are on, feel very strongly on this subject.

I think we had to make a clear dis ti nction then between those jobs that fall under strict Civil Service Commission and therefore open to bids ; and I'm sure the Minister himself, having been in the Civil Service Commission previou sly, is in full agreement on this subject. Now I noticed in his reply to me that he indicated that he could not guarantee that all other jobs had been handled strictly by bids. Now I can appreciate that offhand he may not want to make that commitment to the House .

I do think, however , that it is important that we should make that clear distinction and tha t we establish clearly those jobs that are not Ci vil Service Commissi on jobs , be clearly under stood that those are handled as the personal entourage, as he termed it , of the Minister and these are not appointments through the Civil Service Commission; that those be clearly so labelled that everyone knows exactly where we stand; but that all the other ones then that do follow the Ci vil Service Commiss ion be absolutely clearly in that category and that whenever a vacancy occurs that the same procedure be followed in each case.

This is a protection to the employees themselves who are members of the Civil Service Commiss ion . I think it's a protection to our whole democratic system and by far the best procedure . Now I appreciate that possi bly at this moment the Minister can not give us that commitment. I would apprecia te, howeve r, if he could look into it and have that clear distinction made so that members of the House and members of the Ci vil Service know exactly where they stand. MR . EV ANS: Well that is the system under which it is being administered, and I give Page 356 February 28th, 196 1.

(Mr . Evans , cont'd.) ...•. my honourable friend the clearest asser tion. I have now the informa tion he asked concerning the Executive Assistants and they are to be found in the Departments of Educati on, Public Works , Attorney-Gene ral , Health, and Mines and Resource s. These are called Executive Assistants . Well perhaps I had bette r, once again , undertake to examine this que stion more fully and bring back an answer to my friend. on it. MR . MOLGAT: Well I don't need the answer now, I just want to know where we stand MR . EVANS: You would like the information late r? MR. MOLGAT : Please . MR.

EVANS: Very good. MR . CHAIRMAN: Item 4 -- Passed. It's the wish of the Minister that Item 5 stand. Agreed? MEMBERS: Agreed . Mr. CHAIRMAN: Item 6, Civil Service Group Life Insurance. Re solution 20 -- passed. MR. CAMPBELL: ......... report in this connection, Mr. Chairma n , I see that the amount is the same as last year . Would it not be logica l to expect that with the increase in the number of civil servants and of some increase in wage s that the contribution would rise? MR. EVANS: The amount provided here is to cover the government's proportion of the payment each month to the insurance company.

The civil servant , each civil servant pays in 30� per month per thousand of insurance . The government stands ready and does, in fact , pay in the further 15� making it a total of 45� . Now I have some information here on the -- I think it's buried in here for the moment and I'll just find it for you -- the first amount provided of $50 ,0 00 could only be a guess until the enrollment was made and we found out how many there were and other matters of that kind .

The note I have here on this point is as follows , that at the pre sent time the government's share of such insurance premiums amounts to approximately $4, 000 per month, and with the gradual increase in the amounts of insurance because of salary increases and in the automatic coverage of all new employee s, it is expected that this cost for the next fiscal year will amount to $50 , 000 . There is a margin in there of some $2 , 000, as I see it. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Ch airman, there was the question that I'm sure a lot of the members of the House are interested in .

I'm not asking for technical details in connection with this, but the reason that the group life contract was awarded to companies outside of the Pro vince of Manitoba, that is, with their head offices outside the Province of Manitoba . Is there anything that the Minister could give us in that regard? MR . EVANS: The simple answer is the lowest bid. I should be glad to amplify that .

If my honourable friend would care to have me do so I could describe the number of bids that were received and from whom they were received, but if they wish me to confine myself to this I could tell him the comparison of the bids of the Manitoba company versus the Canada Life who finally took the contract . And the main one that interested us was gross unit cost for $1 ,0 00 , Cana da Life , 45�; Manitoba companies, 52�. The gross, othe r figures , like the gross annual premiums down here which is $184 ,0 00 for the Canada Life; $213 ,0 00 for the Manitoba companies; and so forth. There are a number of detail s.

Another was the length of time for which the original bid was guarante ed. In the case of the Ca nada Life it was 27 months; and in the case of the Manitoba companies, only 12 months . Even if there had been no advantage in the actual price that was to be charg ed, this guarantee for the initial period might have been of extreme value because the initial period when you recruit the people at pre sent in service is an important one .

It was necessa ry to get 75% of the existing civil servants in order to get a rea sonable rate and to be guarante ed against loss, beca use very naturally people who are of more advanced years or who may fear for their health would join very quickly and readily; and those younger and in good health might not join; and so you would have a waiti ng, or loading I think they call it, again st the plan and you might have lost money. So this guarantee of this low rate for a 27 month build- up period by Ca nada Life was a very good advantage in comparison to 12 months .

Basically, the answer to your question is on the lowe st and most advanta geous bid for the employee. MR . N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone) : I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many members of this legisla ture took advantage of the contract offered to th em? February 28th, 196 1. Page 357

MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have that information:-- (Interjection) -- I suppose so. I don't know whether on a pay deduct like the other people or not, but there are 16 private members; 10 Cabinet Ministers joined. As you know we lost our honourable friend Marcel Boulic , and the present number of cabinet ministers is now -- I was mistaken there, the Hon. Mr . Ridley -- the number now is nine -- sixteen private members, nine cabinet members .

I might say, as illustrating the great comfort and advantage that this insurance scheme is , that a claim on this fund was incurred within a matter of hours of it coming into force and a payment became avail able at once . So $6 , 000 to a widow , and perhaps for one in that category of earnings , it was a very great comfort and a very great feeling of eas ing of a feeling of insecurity that must have come upon her and the family . This is one of the great advantages -- the easing of human distress -- (Interje ction) -- I'm so sorry, I didn't hear that. MR . GRAY: ........... age limit . MR .

EVANS: I believe the age limit for joining is 65. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolu tion 20 -- Passed. Item 7, Re solution 21. MR . GRAY: Mr. Chairman , I wonder whether the Minister would tell the committee the duties, the powers of the Purchasing Bureau, also the Minister's re sponsibility or res ponsibilit ies towards that Bureau. MR. EV ANS: Well as to the last part of that question -- first , Mr . Chairman, the Minister's responsibility for the Purchasing Bureau is the same as for any other part of the department.

The Purchasing Bureau has been transferred to the administration of the Pro vincial Secr etary and I have responsibility for it and its acts , as I have for any other parts of the department. Let me outline for my honourable friend the functions of the Purchasing Bureau . It does the purchasing for all government materials with the following exceptions: the Queen's Printer who is responsible for his own purchases; the Provincial Libra ry, the Provincial Architect; the Manitoba Text Book Bureau.

It may be clear to my honourable friend that it is not re sponsible for the Crown Corporations , for the Commissi ons -- the Manitoba Power Commission, the Manitoba Tele phone Co mmission and the Manitoba Li quor Commission . With those exceptions, the Purchasing Bureau is responsible for calling bids ; selecting the low tender, and it's required to be the low tender or the most advantageous ten der to the province ; and then making out the contract and otherwise completing the sale .

The Purchasing Bureau receives requisitions from the department that requires the material or the service to be performed, and on the basis of that requisition calls the tender . If it is a comparatively small item they may call tenders by telephone; they may ask for quotations by telephone -- never less than three. In the cases of large contracts they call for public tenders; and in the case of road contracts and matters of that kind , those contracts are opened in public . Now is there any particular aspect my honourable friend would like to ask . MR .

GRAY: Ca n a department reco mmend which car they would like to have or which model , or in other words, can a Minister say he wants a Cadillac instead of a Ford? MR . EVANS: I think my honourable friend had better ask , concerning the purchase of ca rs , from the Honourable the Minister of Public Works who administers the Motor Vehicle Control Board . In the selection of cars , we are not entitled to ask for the kind of car we get . We generally ask what car we have been awarded and ask what colour it is and which one is it and we get in and drive it away. MR . CAMPBE LL : .........

I believe the cars are purchased through the Bureau. MR . EVANS: Yes. The actual contract is executed through the Purchasing Bureau. MR . HILLHOUSE : Is there such a thing as a preferred list given to the Purchasing Agent or has he a free choice as to where he can call for tenders ? MR . EVANS: Anyone may attend the Purchasing Bureau and have his name entered to recei ve bids for any specific class of goods . There is no re striction , no preferred list. MR. HILLHOUSE: ...•... general advertisement published in the newspaper calling for bids. MR . EVANS: Ah, now I wonder what my honourable friend means there.

With respect to certain classes of goods , I think there are two kinds of purchases we have in mind here . One is the kind of purchase which would be the subjec t of a public tender. Ce rtainly road con tracts come under that. There might be some kind of bulk purchases of things -I am not aware Page 358 February 28t h, 1961 .

(Mr . Evans , cont'd. ) .... . of what that mi ght be , but alternatively there are smaller purchases of specific kinds of goods. It might be typewrite rs or carbon paper or paper for printing, or it mi ght be food or the many things that we do buy and we buy almost the whole range . Then anyone who sells those kinds of things may come to the office of the Purchasing Bureau , or write, and say that I am interested to receive calls for tenders or bids every time this class of goods is requir ed. They can be registered under those classes and are , in fact.

Everyone who applies is , in fact, registered under the class for which he appli es . So some things are really known. If you want cans of paint you don't put out a public tender asking for some mod er ate amount of paint, you call up the suppliers of paint or write to them and say we are thinking of calling on so many gallons of paint for public buildings and ask them for pric es . I thillk they dividlthemselves into the two class es; those that are of the type that can be found in the catalogue or standard item , and those are not called for by public tenders .

But there are the large construction contracts and those are always called for by public tender. MR . ffiLLHOUSE : ....... aware of the fact that they can apply to the Purchasing Agent to have their names placed on the list for supplying any particular items? What I have in mind is this, take the uniforms for the attendants at the Selkirk Mental Hospital and at the Bran don Mental Hospital. Is the general public aware that they can leave their name there so that they can get a tender form when uniforms are required? And take, for instance, the purchase of automobiles by the various departments .

Now are the various automobile dealers in Manitoba aware of the fact that they have the right to submit tenders and to leave their names with the Purchasing Agent so that they can be notified when these tenders are open? MR . EV A.J.'IS: They certainly know and I would say that for any commercial company there is no problem there, that the salesman is there to find sales. We , at time s, do write to people in certain classes of business that we find in trade directorie s.

If we were , take for example , if we were interested in bee keeping supplies and there were too few people on our list, we thought, to get representative price s, we mi ght take the Trade Directory and write to every name in that classification asking if they were interested in bidding on government con tracts . Norm ally , however , the salesma n of the commercia l company, if he is on his toes at all , he is down calling on the government right away. JYIR. GUTTORMSON: Mr . Chairman , could the Minister explain the situation of tender ing of gas and oil for government vehicles?

In cer tain parts of the Pr ovince certain govern ment vehicle s must go to ce rtain oil dealers , and other parts of the Province they must go to others . Can he explain how this sytem is derived at? MR . EVANS: Yes. Tenders are called for from the oil companies and it is not always possible to choose -- the contract by the way is let on a two year basis -- the contract is let for two years . It is let on the basis of the lowest price that is obtained for gasoline or fuel oil . In this case , the lubricants go along with the gasoline . Whoever offers the lowest price on gas oline gets the entire contract.

Then one outlet is chosen at a given point -- a bulk tank outlet- not a filling station but a bulk station. That station is chosen as the one closes t to where the road grader or whatever the machine is , is located for convenience . Now that may not always be the oil company that offered the lowest price .

The lowest tenderer may not have a bulk sta tion at that location and it would cost more to run 15 or 20 miles down the road to fill up and come back again; and so the contract for that particular point may be let to the second lowest , or even in some cases the third lowest tenderer who happens to have a bulk station at the point where the piece of equipment is located. But this is also on a tender basis and the lowest price taken. MR . GRAY : What is the name of the Purchasing Agent. I have never met him . MR . EVANS: I think Mr. C. V. Marrin . MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Chairman, am I to understand that all through the province that you can have different dealers supplying gas and oil to the government at different price s? MR . EV ANS: That is true , except that it works out at the lowest price for the govern ment because the given piece of road equipment , shall we say, is located at a certain point.

If the bulk station of the lowest oil company as it were , the company thr.t offered the lowest price , happened to be 5 or 10 miles down the road and the equipment had to run 5 or 10 miles down to fill up and 5 or 10 miles back, the cost of not only the gasoline but the people's time , equipments and tires, and so on would be more than the very sl ight difference there is in price . February 28th, 196 1. PagG 359

(Mr . Evans , cont' d.) ....• So it is the station which affords the least net cos t to the province that is chosen in each case . · MR . GUTTORMSON: Are the tende rs then submi!ted by the oil companie s -- the head offices of the oil companie s themselves then? MR. EVANS: Yes. MR . MOLGAT: I presume then that insofar as the au tomobile ••..... is conce rned, we will discuss that under Public Works and not at this stage . Is that correct? MR . EVANS: I am afraid I haven't the information. It would be the Minister of Public Works . MR . CHAIRMAN: Item 8, Resolution 22 - Passed.

Department V, Education. 1- Administra tion . MR . McLEAN: In prese nting the estimates for the Department of Educa tion , I would like to make a general statement and review some of the things that we have been endeav our ing to do during the past year or two yea rs , in some instan ces , and with the hope that it might give rise to a number of questions and searching inquiry as we proceed in the view of the individual items in the estimates themselves.

It is understood, of cou rse , by the members of the com mittee that I can only touch on some of the highlights here and would not undertake to give the story with respect to everything that has taken place or that is likely to take place during the coming fiscal year . You will under stand that I am a little self-conscious of what I had intende d to say first beca use of the glowing tribute s that have been paid to the members of the Civil Servi ce , and I had wanted to say som ething about the staff of the Department of Education . Notwithstanding that, however, Mr.

Chairman , I would like to say a word of apprecia tion to the members of the staff who have rendered signal service to the department and to the Province of Manitob a during the past year, and who are giving outstanding service in the work of the departme nt. I never cease to be amazed at the capacity which they have for work and their willingness to under take almost any task that is placed before them.

It is a fact that many of the senior men in the department have come through the ranks of teachers and perhaps , in many instance s, into the department through school inspection; and the y have , of course , a very broad and comprehensive knowledge of education and the work of the schools and have the knowledge and the ability to carry into action the policies that are adopted by the gove rnment. And I just want to express my apprec iation , and I know the appreciation of the government , for the splendid service which they are rende ring to the Province of Manitob a.

Ass ociated with the sta ff, of course , are many other people because , as I am very fond of sa ying, the provision of the educational services in Mani toba are a partnership arr angement and there are many of us who have some

part in carrying out these responsi bilitie s. I would like to mention the trust ees , the individual trustees through out the Pro vince of Manitob a. They have an important task to perform in their local districts or divisions , as the case may be , and we owe a great deal to each and every one of them who is making a substantial contribution to our schools and to the work of educa tion .

The Trustee Asso ciatio ns , of which there are two , The Manitob a School Trustees Associa tion and the Mani toba Urban School Trustees Asso ciation , both Assoc iations rendering signal service to the work of the trustees and indeed the work of our schools in the province . I think I may say that we enjoy the happiest of relations with both of their Asso ciation s, with their officers , and execu tives and staff.

Of course the whole job of providing education would fall to the ground if it were not for the teachers who, in the classroom, carry into effect or make worthwhile the work that we endeavour to do in the provision of money in buildings and facilitie s; beca use except as it is translated into class room teaching, no part of what we endeavour to do is of any value . I would like to say that we are fortunate in this province in having a large group of dedicated school teachers who are giving outstanding service to the boys and girls of Manitob a.

Some times you know we tend to think of teach ers in a sort of impersonal way, but I always like to think of teache rs in terms of those that taught me when I went to school and as individual people who are giving a fine service ; doing a job which they like to do , I am sure , and in which they get a great joy and interest; and all of us individually and colle ctively owe a great deal to th em. The Manitoba Teach er' s Society , as the body which acts for the teachers in a corpora te capacity, has also given service to the Province of Manitoba and I shall have occasi on , during Page 360 February 28th, 1961.

(Mr . McLean, cont' d.) ..... the course of my remar ks , to make mention of one or two inst:mcc s where they have been of special assist ance to us. I would like to just say that , in my opinion, the Manitoba Teacher's Society is doing not only a good job for the teachers , but is serving as an important link with the Department of Education and the government of the province in ensur ing that all our efforts are worthwhile.

And while speaking of this particular group of people , a word on the Municipal Councils who have sometime s e),:pressed great dis ma y at the monies which they are required to raise from time to time , but who have a real interest in what goes on in the schools.

And in particular the rural councils, because now , as I shall be saying in a few mom ents , we have a tremendous increase in the number of students being transported to schools and that has necess itated the greatest co-operation with municipal councils in the provision of roads and keeping them in adequate state of repair and snow removed and so on, and I should not like this occa sion to pass without a word of appreciation and thanl;:s to them . In all of this of course , too , we have the assistance of many voluntary associa tions .

I did think I might list some of them , and then there seemed to be so many I thought that I would perhaps be in error to mention any in dividual asso,ciation. But there are many that will come to the minds of the members of tllis com mittee who do real work in assisting us in educati on. And my colleague , the Minister of Industry and Comme rce , has been most helpful to us through his department ; the Minister of Municipal Affairs; and particularly the Ministe"r of Public Works ; and of course the Treasury , the ProYin cial Treasurer is always most helpful in a rather important way.

I would like to say somet hing about the position of the Department of Ed ucation and the educational services in relation to the overall operations of the Government of Manitob a.

Just to give you a quick run-down of the monies provided in current expenditures for the Departm ent of Education over a number of years , just going back to the fiscal year 56 -57 , when $1 2.8 mil lion was provided; 57- 58 , $1 5.2 million; in 58- 59, $19 .6 million; 59- 60 , $25 .5 million; in 60- 61, the year in which we are now, $32 .1 million; and in the upcoming fiscal year, the es timates that we are considering here now, $33 .5 million dollars; and to point out that in this upcoming fiscal year, ju st a shade under one-third of the total current expenditures of the Province of Ma1litoba will be provided for the Department of Education .

It is the largest individual departmental item in our current proposed budg et , and I mig ht even hazard a guess that when one takes into account the capital expenditures about which we will be speaking of course at a later time , that we wil l even then still hold first place .

Now I mention this to indicate that we in this government do give first place to the claims of educa tion, and there has never been any question about that ; and if there has ever been any necessity to pare our expenditures , the Department of Ed ucation has not been asked to do that if it was at all possi ble to avoid it and indeed, as indicated , we received the largest appropriation of any of the departments in the Provincial Government of Manitob a. A word about the -- I said somet hing about the people who are in the department -- a word about the number who are employ ed.

These figures are as of December 31 st in each year . In 1957 there were 273 ; December 31 st , 1958 , 299; December 31 st, 1959, there were 300 , and December 31 st , 1960 , just past, 304. The list which the Honourable the First Minister tabled earlier will show 321 as be ing our establishment , which simply indicates that we are slightly under because of certain unfilled posi tions and, of course , the figure of 304 are those on staff as of December 31 st, 1960 . A word about the inspection staff -- we have 48 established posi tions for School Inspectors , but actually only 44.

We weren't just quite on our toes a year ago and were not able to secure sufficient number of persons to fill our complement of inspectors. We have taken a little different approach this year and it is our hope that by the middle of Aug ust, which is the normal time for taking new members on the inspection staff, that we will have a full complement of school inspectors . That will require the appointment of 4, plus 1, because there will be one retirement from the inspection staff during the summe r.

A word or two about the history of school adm inistration in Ma nitoba, because I think it is important in considering some of the developments which have tal;:en place during recent years . The first school act in Manitoba was passed in 1871 and that established a system of school districts with which we are all familiar, and which was imported here from the system which had grown up largely in the Province of Ontario. On May 27th, 19 05, the first Consoli dated School District in Manitoba was forme d. That was formed at Virden, Virden No . 144 .

In 1919 , that was 14 years later, we had the formation of the first Municipal School District at Miniota -- Miniota Municipal School District No . 149 . In 1946 we had the formation of the fil 'st February 28th, 1961 l?��ge 36.1

(Mr. McLean, cont'd. ) •• ••• school area, the Dauphin-Ochre School Area, the only one to have been of that particular type of school administration to have been formed in Manitoba. On Septe mber 1st, 1955 , the first secondary school area formed at Portage la Prairie. This was the first of some four secondary school areas that were formed under the legislation that became effective in the year 1955; and on April lst, 1959 , the official formation of the school divisions , 42 at that time , now 43 because of the addition of one school division since that time .

Now you will have noticed that there has been that movement toward the larger unit of school administra tion as we have expanded and have become more thickly populated and as the requirements of our educational needs have expanded. There has been that movement toward the larger unit of ad ministration as providing, first of all, the taxbase necessary to provide the educational ser vices; and secondly, the services themselv es, the type of teaching, the schools to give the sort of education that was necessary for the best interest of our boys and girls .

I mentioned the first Consolidated School District, and while this other development has been going on , that is, the Municipal School Districts, School Areas , Secondary School Areas and school divisions , the ex pansion in the number of Consolidated School Districts has been going on as well . Of course until the time when we had school divisions, the formation of Consolidated School Districts affected both high schooi as well as elementary instruction .

Since the time of the formation of school divisions in April, 19 59, consolidation has continued, but it is related now to the pro vision of education in the ele mentary grades. As a matter of information for the purpose of the committee , from '47 to "52 there were six consolidations; '52 to '55, four consolidations; '5 5 to '5 7, five consolidations; in l95'l, one consolidation; in 1958 there were five; in 1959 , 23 consolidations; and in 1960 , 15 consolidations; giving us at the moment , a total of 153 consoli dated school districts.

Also, there has been a total of 113 diss olutions which means that cer tain districts have been dissolved and gone off into other districts to enlarge their particular size . Now the thing that I want to point out is the figures for 1959 and 1960 .

In other words, along with the introduction of the school division plan for the provision of high school service s, has come about an expansion and increase in the number of consolidations for elementary school purpos es; and it would be my expectation that that will continue and that we will have an enlarge ment of the number of consolidated school districts because it is indicated, I think the advantage of that type of development is apparent with regard to high schools and is becoming equally ap parent with respect to elementary education.

Last year when I made my report I was able to tell you that we had in Manitoba, in the public· schools of Manitoba, 176 ,3 89 students , I can tell you that as of June 30th last year , one year later from the figure that I reported to you on our last occasion, we had 18 4,3 38 studen ts .

Now the matter of enrollment in the high schools has been -- it's often talked about and I some times think that so many people give so many figures so many times that it gets a little confus ing, but I do have some figures which would be of interest, and I am particularly interested in this be cause of the way in which it reflects the operation of the school divisions , insofar as it affects high school enrollment .

The increase from June , 1959 :--June 1959 being the end of the term during which school divisions became effective -- at that time there were a total of 33, 774 students in our high schools in Manitoba in grades IX, X, XI, and XII .

One year later, in June 1960 we had 36 , 397 or an increase of 2,6 20 students in our high sch ools , but the signi ficance of this particular information is not so much in the increase in the total, it's the fact that the largest part of the increase occurred in grades XI and XII , in the .grades where we were having a very large drop-out in previous years, and for example , just to give you a comparison -- of Grade XI as between June of 1958 and June of 1960 there was an increase from 6, 670 to 8,9 88, that's in grade XI only; and in the case of Grade XII an increase from 3, 290 in June of 1958 to 4, 902 in June of 19 60, an increase of some 1, 700 students in grade XII.

Now what this indicates to me is the larger numbers of students in those important grades XI and XII, but if the information as to the province is interesting , I would like to give you some information concerning four of the divisions which to me are nothing short of startling. I looked at the Swan Valley School Division # 35 and find that in June of 1959 there were 596 high school students in all of the high schools in that division and in September 1960 there were 825, an in crease of 229 or 38% in that one division.

By the way, just while speaking about Swan Valley School Division , that division has six buses which it owns and operates to draw in the student s to the high schools and has eight buses unde r contract , a total of fourteen buses drawing the pupils from the rural parts of the division into the various high schools located throughout it. Page 362 February 28th, 196 1

(Mr . M cLean, cont•d.) . . ... In the Seine River School Division If 14, June 1959 249 pu pils in the high schools of that division; September 1960 , one year after the operation of the school division plan 532 , an increase of 183 , or 52% in that one division. Duck Mountain School Div ision -- one which lies close to my own constituency and which is represented in this House by the Honourable the Member for Ethelbert Plains -- June 1959, 256 high school students; Sept ember 1960 , 415 high school students, an increase of 159, or 62% in the course of one year.

That division, by the way, owns eleven buses which it has drawing the rural students in to the high schools located in it. Lakeshore School Division If 23 -- that's the division up between the lakes -- June 1959 they had 258 high school students and in September 1960 they had 574 high school students, an increase of 316 or 122% increase in one year. That division has 30 buses under contract drawing the students in to the high schools of the division.

I mention these to indicate the tremendous change that has taken place in the numbers of students being educated in the high schools, particularly in the rural divisions of the Province of Manitob a. Now all of these folks who are going to school required as of December 31, 1960, 7, 786 teachers . I'm pleased to be able to report to the committe e that our teacher supply has im proved and will improve -- is improving and will improve. We're making, I think, quite sat isfactory progress in that regard.

A year ago, that is , a year ago at this time , we had 95 permit teachers in the secondary schools of Manitoba; as of this date we have 62 . A year ago we had 82 permit teachers in the elementary schools in Manitoba and today we have 55. And while those changes are not large or startling, you will notice how close we are now to almost the complete elimination of permit teachers from the school system in Manitoba.

We have at the present time 759 students taking teacher-training in the Province of Manitoba -- that's at Teachers College , Brandon College, and at the Faculty of Education at the l'niversity of Manitoba. Effective with the first of September of this year, 1961, we will require Grade XII, com plete Grade XII , for entrance to Manitoba Teachers College. Last year we increased the re quirements from Grade XI and two subjects in Grade XII up to four subjects in Grade XII, and now we're going for the complete Grade XII requirement for the Teachers College entrance.

I should point out of cour se that this -- there's a matter of terminology involved here -- that this is what is known as Teachers College Entrance, Grade XII Teachers College Entrance - it' s not quite the same thing as Grade Xli senior matriculation.

I believe the difference is that one does not have to have a language , a foreign language, for the Teachers College en trance , but it's the Grade Xli Teachers College entrance that will be the requirement as of September 1st of 1961, and it is my hope -- although I make no firm statement on the matter -- it is my hope that one year from then, that is September 1, 1962 , we will be able to say that it will have to be Grade XII senior matriculation for entrance to Teacher College .

A matter of information, perhaps the committee would like to know that we had in 1958-59 , we had 6, 450 classrooms operating; 1959-60 we had 6, 615 or an increase of 165 . One of the more spectacular aspects of the development insofar as education is concern ed during the past two years -- and I'm speaking now of the time since April 1, 1959 when the school divisions came into operation -- has been that of school building, and there has indeed been a tremendous upsurge in the provision of both additions to existing schools and to new schools.

Altogether in that period, and I'm speaking of the period since April l, 1959 , we have provided, there has been constructed or approved or under construction , a total of 2, 586 class rooms , certainly one of the largest programs that has ever been carried out in the Province of Manitoba, A word about the elementary -- the figures with respect to the elementary construc tion, completed. These are buildings that have been completed; 398 classrooms in 45 schools; 250 classrooms as additions to 40 existing sch ools ; those are all completed. Under construc tion , 44 classrooms in four schools.

Approved and ready to go , I presume waiting only for the spring weather, 61 classrooms in 8 schools, and 137 classrooms as additions to 14 schools , giving us a total of 890 rooms in the elementary sphere . Perha ps I should say that in addition to that we have 48 classrooms in what we call remote school districts , in which in a sense are a combination of both elementary and high school . It's in the firld of high school classroom construction that we have the large numbe r, because in that same period we have had 584 class rooms constructed in 27 schools.

These are completed -- 27 high schools, new high schools, completed under the division plan in less than a two-year period. During the same time there February 28th, 196 1 Page 363

(Mr . McLean , cont'd.) ..... have been 205-classrooms constructed in the form of additions to 12 existing high sch ools . Under construction at the presen t time in high schools we have 308 cfassrooms in 23 sch ools , and if you add the 23 to the 27 that means that there are 50 new high schools either completed or in the course of construction in that period since April 1, 1959 . In addition and ready to go are 525 classrooms in 48 high schools.

These have been approved although not constructed, and if you add the 48 to the 50 you get 98 new high schools either constructed, under construction, or ready to be constructed as soon as the season will perm it, and in addition to the 525, 74 classrooms in the form of additions to 60 existing high schools . All of this adds up to 1,6 96 classro oms , or classroom equivalents , because this in cludes the libraries and all the other things that are part and parcel of the modern school , are included in this figure .

And I think that the people of Manitoba may take some justifiable pride in that record of achievement. But, you !mow, Mr . Chairman, statistics don't mean a thing until you've attended the opening of one of these new high schools. You !mow, I remember that people used to say to me -- it's just about two years ago now; they'd stand up and they'd say , "Oh, Mr. McLean, you !mow that this plan is only designed to give good high schools to the city of Winnipeg. Us fellows in the country , we'll never get anything like this. " Well Mr.

Chairman , I want to tell you that there are some of the finest schools in the Province of Mani toba located in the rural parts of this province . The member for Ethelbert Plains -- I hope he's been at the new high school at Gilbert Plains, a nice little village some 20 miles just the other side of the centre of the North American continent, one of the most beautiful, best equip ped high schools that I have ever seen . The equal of the best in the city of Winnipeg and the only difference being that it isn't as larg e , of course, as some of the larger high schools in Winnipeg.

And that's the story all over Manitoba, and I'm very happy about this because of course I thought that would be the case , but when so many people used to say it isn't true and it won't happen , I began to wonder, "well now maybe I'm mistaken ", but I'm happy to have these exhibits scattered all over the Province of Manitoba to show that we are giving to the rural boy and girl the same opportunity within, so far as buildings and equipment can provide , the same opportunity as those who live in the larger and the urban centres of our province .

All of this , of course , has required considerable effort on the part of local people in the approval of necessa ry debentures; and on the subject of debentures, I would like ·to mention that we have been most succes sful, I think, in the assis tance we have been able to give to school districts and school divisions in the disposal of their school debentures. The fact of the matter is that the Province of Manitoba has not had to buy a school debenture issue since April of 1960 , almost a year . These debentures have all been sold to private investors.

We have a rule that if the interest rates reach 6 3/4% the Province of Manitoba will purchase the debentures in order that the interest charges will not be above that. In all instances they have been below that, and in the last case which was just a few days ago, the case of the School District of St . Francois-Xavier, the debentures were disposed of at an interest rate of 6.0 2%.

I think that I must aclmowledge here , and I am glad to do so , the assist ance that the Department of Education has recei ved in this work from the Department of Municipal Affairs and from the Municipal Board and from the Minister of Industry and Commerce; be cause among all the studies he has undertaken during the past year, one of them was designed to interest investors in Manitoba securitie s; and he was instrumental in bringing a group of people to this province who were primarily interested in that aspect, and was taking them around, showing them what we had; and as a result of this, it can be stated categorically that the private investment firms have been most interested in our school debentures and have been of great assi stance to us.

Well , so much for the school buildings . I made some comment, in one or two instances, about the buses and vans and the transportation of rural students because that was part of the plan necessary to get the se students into the schools, if you are going to have the schools. And just by way of some com parative figures, I should like to tell you that, taking April 1st, 1959 , the beginning time of the plan, there were at that time , ten districts owned buses.

As of this date, today, Feb . 28, 19 61, there are 103 district and division-owned buses daily transporting boys and girls to and from the high schools of the Province of Manitoba, an increase of 93 buse s in thRt; 60% of the cost of which, in every case , has been paid through the funds of the Province of Manitoba. In Page 364 February 28th, 1961

(Mr . McLean, cont'd.) ..... addition to buses owned by districts and divisions, there are buses which are under contract, doing the same work of course . On April 1st, 1959, there were eight; today there. are 42 . And in addition to buses, either contract or owned, there are what are known as vans , largely related to consolidated school districts. On April 1st, 1959 ,

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-3-13a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 3rd hansardpdf 13a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	19401c6227b587554c91f37e03b14b2490824294

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