May 5,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLIII No. 19

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The Chair would like to welcome today, thirty-six grade five students from

St. Peter's Elementary School, Upper Island Cove in the district of Port de

Grave. They are accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Winston Lynch and Mr. David

White and bus driver, Mr. George Evans.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today will be for the Minister of Health.

Now, in the House of Assembly on April 24th, I asked questions to the Premier

with regards to governments handling of health care and I questioned the

validity of another forum to respond to what is a crisis situation and the

Premier responded. Mr. Speaker, the newfoundland nurses union met with the

Social Policy Committee of Cabinet and recommended this concept. The Minister of

Health, as a member of the Social Policy Committee in Cabinet, and I ask him,

does the government stand by that statement, that the health forum was asked for

and requested by the Newfoundland and Labrador Nurses Union?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think the hon. member may recall, if he listened to the comments from the

president of the nursing association last week, who said herself that this was

not exactly the concept that they were proposing, in terms of involving

themselves and other stakeholder's as being a part of the ongoing discussion

about health care restructuring. However, she did follow up by saying, while it

was not the exact concept that they had in mind, she did view it as being a good

initiative, a good first step and who knows what the results of the forum will

be. I do not want to prejudge what the outcomes will be or what the

recommendations of the stakeholder's will be, but certainly the nursing

association is on record as saying, they support the forum, although it is not

exactly what they suggested in terms of structure.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I ask the minister, were you at that meeting with the Newfoundland and

Labrador Nurses Union?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, Nr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: I ask the minister, did the minister interpreted the

request by the nurses' union to have this forum? Was that the minister's

interpretation of the request by the nurses' union?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, the Social Policy Committee of Cabinet meets

with many groups regularly. I am not sure what the hon. member is trying to

proposition here. The nurses' union, when they came in and made their

presentation, they had a concept in mind of what I would describe as an ongoing,

advisory committee being struck to advise government on certain matters with

respect to health care restructuring. They made their presentation and as a

result of their presentation and as a result of representation that we hear

ongoing about issues in matters in health care, the Premier announced a forum

where all front-line stakeholders who work in the system could be represented so

that we could get the views directly from those who deliver services day in and

day out on the front lines.

What we have put in place, Mr. Speaker, is a forum that will involve for the

most part front-line health care workers. We believe, Mr. Speaker, that it is

important to hear from at this point in time those who sit, work and deliver

services right at the front line, and these are primarily whom we will hear from

at the forum. Of course, there will be others in attendance but primarily, these

are the individuals whom we are going to engage in a dialogue as a round table

type of formal (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What the minister said today, is that they asked for a permanent, Standing

Committee. That is not what the Premier said so you are saying today that the

Premier did not tell the truth. That is what the Minister of Health is stating

here today on the record in the House.

The nurses' union proposed: who is the Premier trying to fool with his

statement. The minister denied it, the nurses' union denied it. We know the real

truth.

Now they proposed their permanent standing committee of front-line health

care workers, that is badly needed I might say to the minister. Now the

Newfoundland Pharmaceutical Association also addressed this point in a news

release. They are disappointed that the government has chosen a short-term forum

that does not include pharmacists as members.

Now Minister, your forum is a closed affair with no opportunities for general

public input.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question.

MR. SULLIVAN: I ask the minister: Will you provide this House with a list

of the people and groups who have received a direct invitation from you to

attend this forum?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the first part of the question, the fact that we are having a forum on the

weekend involving mainly front-line health care providers does not, in any way,

shape or form, preclude us considering further the proposition that was put

forth, or the concept of a dialogue on an ongoing basis that is being put forth

by the nurses. We have not said we are not going to do that. What we have said,

and what we have announced, is a forum to have some dialogue with front-line

health care workers, and I am not about to stand here and prejudge in any way

what the outcome of the forum will be, what the recommendations and the views of

the front-line health care workers in the Province will be.

As to the second part of his question, I have already laid out in this House

every group that will be represented at the forum and that has accepted

invitations. The only individuals who have not been - no individuals have been

identified. It is not government's role, nor will we be involved in identifying

individuals who will be at the forum. The ARNN, the Nurse's Union, CUPE, NAPE,

Allied Health, PAIRN, the Medical School, all will identify and have at the

forum the people they have chosen. I don't know if they have all chosen their

representation yet or not, but they will have representation there - they have

committed to that - and there will be, contrary to what the hon. member says,

public participation. There will be consumer representation at the forum.

When he says it is not a public forum and the public will not be represented,

it is a gross, misleading, non-factual proposition that he puts forward. It is

not the truth, plain and simple.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I asked the minister if he has the names of individuals and groups, and the

minister is not prepared to table and provide them. I am sure in due course we

will know.

The minister stated that this forum is not going to stop him from doing

something. Well, I ask him, why isn't he doing something if it is not going to

stop him? Why are you waiting for the results of the forum, as the Premier

stated and you stated? Do something now.

We are having public forums in this Province on almost a daily basis with

meetings. We are hearing it in the media; we are hearing it in groups expressing

their concern; we are hearing it from nurses; we are hearing it from the Medical

Association and from pharmacists all over the Province. When, Minister, are you

going to start responding to the cries for help out there today and stop waiting

for an excuse?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, it is difficult to get through to someone who

has obviously had a long and probably a rough weekend. I understand what that

can cause to happen to an individual's mind. But the hon. member knows very

well, Mr. Speaker, that this forum is fully representative of all front-line

health care workers in the Province. The hon. member knows that there will be

consumer representation. The hon. member knows that we will report, as

government, on the outcome of the forum. The hon. member knows that every

stakeholder group representing every front-line health care worker in the

Province has accepted gladly, willing and with anticipation an invitation to

attend this forum. I am not sure what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition,

quite frankly, is trying to proposition. Is he suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that his

judgement should replace the judgement of every front-line health care worker in

the Province? Is he suggesting that his judgement should replace the judgement

of the leaders of every union that is going to be at the forum? Is he saying

that his judgement should replace the judgement of all of the health care boards

that are operating in the Province? He may think that is a valid proposition but

I think not, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister knows that is not what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is

saying.

AN HON. MEMBER: What are you saying?

MR. SULLIVAN: I am saying listen to these front-line people. Stop using

excuses. Stop trying to buy time. Do something, I say to the minister. There are

hospitals closing.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Health care is not available. There are professionals in

the field saying, Minister: `We do not understand what the government is saying.

We are in a crisis.' I hope when the Premier was in Bristol he learned SOS. He

can find time -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary and I ask him to get to his question

quickly.

MR. SULLIVAN: If there is sufficient time to attend an announcement in

Ottawa on Sunday and travel to Vancouver and all over this globe, why are the

Premier and you not addressing the concerns here in this Province? I ask the

minister. When are you going to start doing something constructive for an ailing

health care system before it completely collapses?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair has recognized the hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, anybody with an objective and fair mind -

MR. J. BYRNE: That rules you out.

MR. MATTHEWS: - who wishes to acknowledge the considerable effort that

this government and the previous Administration has put into health care, will

readily see that we are doing all we can within our resources and with our

energies to address health care issues in this Province. The Budget for health

care has gone from $838 million in 1992 to $910 million this year. We have just

as many doctors working in the Province as we have had at any time in the last

five years. We have 3 per cent more nurses working in the Province over the last

three years. We have more occupational therapists and physiotherapists working

in the health care system than we have had over the past three to five years. We

have more and better facilities to deliver health care in the Province than we

have had over the past three to five years.

Now, am I saying, Mr. Speaker, that we still do not have some areas that we

need to address? Of course not. We have difficulties getting rural doctors, we

have had difficulties for thirty years in that regard, and I anticipate,

unfortunately, we are going to have them for some time to come, because doctors

are not widgets. We do not pick them off a shelf and just deploy them out around

that quickly. They are highly trained, professionally skilled people -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MATTHEWS: - who are trained one at a time -

MR. SPEAKER: I ask the minister to finish his answer quickly, please.

MR. MATTHEWS: - whom we need to recruit, or train through our own medical

school. The hon. member knows full well the effort that we, as a government,

have put into health care, he knows full well that we are going to continue to

expand upon that effort, and frankly, I believe that scares him a little bit.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What scares me is what they are not going to do. That is why I am scared

about it, I say to the minister. Will the minister not tell this House today

that doctors, nurses, and other people in the system out there, are saying we

are in a crisis. There are certain parts of our system in crisis, I say to the

minister, and other parts of it are in very serious difficulty. Will the

minister stand in his place today and tell us if he feels that any parts of our

health care system are in crisis, or is everything fine? Just inform the House.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated that while we have a

fundamentally sound health system, there are areas of concern. There are areas

of concern in the realm of rural doctors primarily. For the most part, what we

are hearing and what we are seeing of late are issues relating to physician

services. Now, there may be reasons for that that are not readily identifiable

or obvious to the naked eye, but there are areas where we do have physician

difficulties.

I was in Port aux Basques last week, met with the people there, and assured

them that we are doing the best we can with the Western Health Care Corporation,

which has the responsibility for managing that region. I understand they are

having a public meeting in Corner Brook this week. I am prepared to go to Corner

Brook and meet with the group. But sitting down and meeting with them and

somehow ameliorating their fears is part of the job. The bigger part of the job

is to try to do what every other province in the country is doing, and that is

trying to recruit and retain doctors who will work in outlying areas of the

Province and help us with our primary care needs. There is nothing new about it,

nothing mystical about it. It is a proposition, a problem, an issue that we will

continue to work on, do due diligence to the issue -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MATTHEWS: - and hopefully get the job done in the best possible way.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health. I am sure the minister is

well aware of the press release put out by the Dr. Charles L. LeGrow Health

Centre in Port aux Basques. From May 5 the Health Centre will be closed to all

but dire emergencies. I am sure the minister is well aware of that.

Minister, the Health Centre is closed. The people of Port aux Basques are in

a dire situation. People's lives are in jeopardy. Can you inform the House as to

how you are dealing with this emergency?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Again, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A slight correction. The Health Centre in Port aux Basques is not closed.

What we are dealing with are physician services in the emergency department and

that sort of thing. We do have a shortage of doctors in the Port aux Basques

area. As I just indicated, I was there a week ago and spoke with the town

council and all who wanted to speak with me on the issue. We are still not up to

the complement of six or seven doctors, which is what we need, so we do have to

take measures to ensure that, in the first instance, the most urgent and the

most emergent cases get treated. What the situation reflects in Port aux Basques

is this, that the most urgent and the most emergent cases get prioritization,

get dealt with first.

Unfortunately, we do not have quite the level of normal emergency room

coverage that we would like to have there, but I am in touch with the Health

Care Corporation on the West Coast. They are working on it. They are attempting

to recruit some doctors. They are providing some locum coverage. I just hope,

and I believe they will, albeit on a reduced basis, still provide a level of

service that will at least meet the most difficult needs that are presented

there - bearing in mind also, of course, the ability of the region to do some

services in Stephenville and in Corner Brook as well, where necessary.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Conception Bay

South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I really find now that we are probably going to get a definition of

emergencies here. Enough is enough. How much longer can this minister get away

with disseminating the Province's single greatest necessity and doing absolutely

nothing about it? The Premier is avoiding the problem, and all people are being

left out. I believe that your forum is a clear indication of that. Minister, do

you intend to do something today about the emergency situation in Port aux

Basques or do you not?

AN HON. MEMBER: He is doing it.

MR. FRENCH: He is doing nothing.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I have been in this House four years now, and

I have yet to hear one comment or one suggestion that is of a positive or

supportive or corrective nature coming from the mouth of the hon. member who is

the health critic, the member for Conception Bay South.

Mr. Speaker, I will continue to do today and I will attempt to continue to do

tomorrow, what I have done in the past through the offices of the department and

through the Western Health Care Corporation, and that is, attempt, to the best

of our ability and resources, to meet the needs as they are out there and as

they will continue to manifest themselves.

We have doctor shortages from time to time all over the Province. We have

them on the Burin Peninsula, in my three years. We have had them on the Baie

Verte Peninsula. Today, we have them in Port aux Basque and to some extent in

Corner Brook, and they are not new problems. They are not pleasant problems,

they are not ones that we want, nor ones that we can always anticipate, but we

will respond in the most effective and resourceful way we can.

That is the only commitment I can give the people of the Province. I gave the

same commitment to the people of Port aux Basque and I give the same commitment

to the hon. member, for what it is worth to him.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South, a supplementary.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I guess, Mr. Speaker, it is pretty evident here, I say to the minister: You

have been a complete failure. You are abandoning the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador, your forum has turned into a joke or, as I said on Friday, garbage,

and I will say it again today, garbage. Your publicity scam is not working. I do

not know how many times you can recycle health care. The people want action and

solutions, not rhetoric, Mr. Minister, which they are receiving from you.

Are you going to wait or are you going to do something about the emergencies

in health care in this Province, today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: The answer to the question again, Mr. Speaker, is yes, to

the best of our ability.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my question today is for the Minister of Government Services and

Lands, seeing that a certain minister is not here. I will not say which one.

AN HON. MEMBER: You will not mention one.

MR. J. BYRNE: I did not mention anyone, did I?

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) regardless of who is here.

MR. J. BYRNE: Go back to sleep, I say to the Government House Leader. Go

back to sleep.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Minister, last year you announced a new policy with

respect to Crown lands and converting leases to grants. Could you tell me how

many people took advantage of that program? You also mentioned last year, that

there would be revenues of $6 million, and I said at the time it would be closer

to $20 million, for the potential. Could you tell how much money came, or will

come, to the Provincial coffers?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In response to the numbers of people who took advantage of the new program,

up to the end of March, we had 2,235 people take advantage of it and the

revenues from that particular program amounted to approximately $3.9 million, up

to the end of March. We anticipate a few more people taking advantage of it in

the coming months, but I have only the figures up to the end of March.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That revenue would be times five, I would imagine, because it was a five-year

plan, was it not?

Can you tell me how many individuals have been refused - the minister

promised a payment plan last year for people who could not come up with the

money. Can you tell me how many people have been refused the payment plan and

how many people are actually losing their cabins because they could not come up

with the money and they had to sell their cabins?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Service and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To date, none have lost their cabins because of this particular program, and

to the other part of the question -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. McLEAN: - we have not turned down any for not being able to pay for

their cabins under the new program. We have dealt with a number of individual

cases and we have been able to work the situation through and we anticipate that

there may be a few more coming in in the next few months. But, to date, none

have lost their cabins because of this new program.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis, a supplementary.

MR. J. BYRNE: I think the minister should check with his department and

find out about the people being refused a payment plan. He should check into it.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, we have now this government in the process of

privatizing parks, in the process of privatizing road systems, Mr. Speaker. We

have changes by the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods with respect to

the moose hunting areas and allowing private individuals to go in early, Mr.

Speaker. So I ask the Minister of Government Services and Lands, there is a

genuine concern out there and it has been brought up at meetings, are there any

plans to privatize actual salmon pools or salmon rivers to individuals where

ordinary Newfoundlanders may not have the opportunity to go in certain pools in

Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not familiar with that. Maybe the Minister of Forest Resources and

Agrifoods could give you a better response. I am not familiar with any of the

processes in our department that deals with salmon pools.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question today is to the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods. I

wonder if the minister -

MR. E. BYRNE: Sir, when this member is sick he comes to the House, not

like half the ministers over there who avoid the place.

MR. FITZGERALD: I wonder if the minister would inform the House if the

new owners of the Farm Products facility will operate from the present location

or will there be a new location?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me first of all say to the hon. gentleman -

let me answer his question by saying this, that at the present time there are no

new owners.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the minister would admit here today that the decision to close

Newfoundland Farm Products was made unanimously by Cabinet at least two years

ago but due to the fear of political fallout, leading up to the election, that

it was delayed? Will the minister admit here today, Mr. Speaker, that his

government knew two years ago that this facility would be closed? Why would he,

in light of that, only give the employees at that particular facility three days

lay-off notice?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman should know that the decision

to close Newfoundland Farm Products was made by this government a week from

Thursday past in Cabinet. Other than that there was no decision to close

anything.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister once again if he would

inform the House if there will be any government subsidies allotted to this new

operator of Newfoundland Farm Products? If there will be, could he inform the

House as to the amount?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, as I said to the hon. gentleman previously last

week, he comes in today and he tries to tell us that Newfoundland Farm Products

has already been sold. I say to him, that is not the case. There are

negotiations ongoing with IPL to take over Newfoundland Farm Products but those

negotiations are ongoing and as I said to him last week, until such time as

negotiations are complete I don't even know what the final details will be and

even if I did, we are moving along that route. We are in negotiations and I say

to him that until such time as negotiations are concluded there is absolutely no

way that I can come in here - he knows that as well as I do, as well as anybody

else but let me just say to him, that our concern is that the employees are

being looked after, our concern is that the Newfoundland Farm Products building

in Corner Brook will be used to process something other than chicken and to that

end we will leave no stone unturned.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Bonavista

South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I realize I am suffering from laryngitis but, Mr. Speaker, the minister has

me totally confused here now. Last week he stood here in the House and said that

the new owners did not want to operate the Newfoundland Farm Products facility

in Corner Brook so it is closed. All the workers are sent home. Today it is not

sold. They are all sent home, laid-off but now today he says that this

particular facility is not sold. If it is not sold, I ask the minister, when

will it be sold? Who made the decision not to operate the facility in Corner

Brook? Why are the people sent home?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me clarify his confusion if he wants to

clarify it, what I said to him last week was that there was no proposition put

forward by anybody since 1994 and there was no scenario that was developed by

anybody under which the Corner Brook plant would remain open, nobody. So if he's

confused, let me just say to him that that is not the case. That is not

necessarily the only case in the present negotiations. Let me say to him that we

have not sold Newfoundland Farm Products and we have not sold the building in

Corner Brook. We have it there, the facts are as I stated to him. We have it

there, hopefully we can, through whatever process we can find, find some means

of opening Newfoundland Farm Products building again in Corner Brook so that the

people who were laid off last week, go back to work.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my question today is for the Minister of Health.

Some time ago, there was a commitment for the dialysis machine in Central

Newfoundland in Grand Falls hospital; now that was a commitment made at that

time but I would like to ask the minister first of all in my first question:

Does he know when that dialysis machine will be in operation at the Grand Falls

hospital?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

No. I don't know the exact date it will be in operation. There has to be some

retrofitting done; the equipment has to be purchased and put in place and

staffing issues have to be dealt with. I would suggest that the hon. member

might get, if he is really anxious to know more closely to the date what it

would be, if he spoke to the Central West Health Care Corporation who is

managing that facility in Central Newfoundland and who is mandated with the

responsibility of getting it up and running as quickly as they can, obviously.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte, a supplementary.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the reason for my question;

that I have contacted the Central Newfoundland Board and have had one report

from there but I also have patients from the area in my district who have been

here at the St. John's hospital waiting of course, to be able to use these

systems in Grand Falls and they have been told in here that, it could go as far

as 1999 before they could have that operation in Grand Falls. So, is the

minister getting conflicting reports on this and, can the minister tell the

House and relieve those people who are getting those reports, that in fact, it

is October of this year or will it be until 1999?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Again, Mr. Speaker, the exact date when it will be up and

running is not quite certain but it could be several more months, probably

October might be the earliest date that it can be up and running.

The good news, Mr. Speaker, is that we are committed to having that service

in place, it is a new service and it is a service that the people of the area

desperately need and want and it is a service that the government of this

Province has acknowledged in terms of a need and has made provision for it, but

it takes some physical time or literal time to get the physical retrofitting

done and get the equipment in place, the staff trained and those sorts of

things. It will happen and if he feels that he wants an exact date as best can

be put forward, I will undertake to get that for him once I have spoken to the

Western Health Care Corporation's Board.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) lots of questions, the problem is you do not

have any answers.

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance and Treasury

Board.

Last week I asked the Premier in the House, dealing with what the impact upon

this year's Budget would be as a result of the declining population.

The Premier answered that, at the time he was assessing the situation;

department officials were called in and that there would be further information

tabled in the House. While there are many factors I understand that go into the

equalization scheme and formula, there is no doubt that the declining population

will have an impact on this year's Budget.

Does the minister know what that impact will be? Has he had any discussions

with Ottawa to minimize that impact and if so, could he enlighten the House on

the details related to the declining population statistics?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, we have looked at our budgetary position. I would say first of all, Mr.

Speaker, that our statistical analysis of what has been happening in the

Province has been more accurate than Statistics Canada.

As the hon. member knows, the statistical models used by Stats Canada are not

ones that follow individual events in the Province; they are geared to small

areas and they magnify it and they also take a point in time. They extrapolate -

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) that's the problem.

MR. DICKS: Yes, that is a problem. So when it comes to equalization, what

we tend to find on a year-to-year basis is that their estimates are not as

accurate as ours, so if I can say to the hon. member that -

AN HON. MEMBER: Too late.

MR. DICKS: No. - what the federal government probably came to, to the

surprise of a lot of people, we have been tracking this and we had estimated

that our population was in that vicinity. The other thing I should say to the

hon. member as well, is that the actual figures I believe they had for the count

last year, was about 552,000; they will adjust that upward because of course,

during the process of carrying out the actual door-to-door survey, they miss

people and we expect that, probably once this works out, to be in the vicinity

of 564,000. So that is roughly. We have put it so we see no need to make any

corrections at this stage to our equalization projections. We are pretty much

where we expect it to be.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Topsail.

MR. WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The Government Services Committee has directed me to report that they have

reviewed the Estimates and approved, without amendments, the estimates and

expenditures of the Departments of Finance; Government Services and Lands;

Works, Services and Transportation; Municipal and Provincial Affairs; the Public

Service Commission, and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have yet another petition on the

privatization of provincial parks. The prayer of the petition reads as follows:

We, the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador, wish to petition the hon.

House of Assembly to voice our concerns over the government's decision to

privatize our provincial parks. We are asking the government to immediately

reverse its decision to privatize the parks as we feel it was made in haste

without consultation with the people who owned the parks, the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, we have presented many, many, many petitions on this. Every day

we go to the mail and, no surprise, there are more petitions coming in. We will

continue to present petitions, I would say, for as long as this House is open,

and into the fall and next spring we will have petitions to present on this

particular topic because the people of our Province do not want these parks

privatized. Unfortunately the government of the day is unaware or unable to see

that, but the fact of the matter is that the people of the Province are against

the privatization of provincial parks. There have been seventy-seven proposals

put in on the twenty-one parks and seven sites, which is really a small number

when you consider the tens of thousands of names on petitions so far to date.

Mr. Speaker, we are still left without answers. The people of the Province

have no answers on the cost to the people of the Province of these provincial

parks, the money that has been invested into these provincial parks by the

people of our Province, the total investment by the people who own these parks,

what these parks are worth to us. Unfortunately, we are going to get somewhere

between $9,000 and maybe $20,000 in return for these parks on the privatization

of the parks. Really that is a shame, because when you boil it all down we are

only getting back a fraction of the total investment put into these parks by the

people of the Province.

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately this government is prepared to sell us out for far

less than what we are worth, and we can see that in everything: in provincial

parks, in our health care system, our education system, everything. Every topic

that has come to light in the past several months, we can see that this

government is selling the people of our Province short.

Mr. Speaker, based on those arguments and the many other arguments that we

have put forward in the past on this particular topic, I am most pleased to

represent and support the people who have signed these petitions in their fight

against the privatization of provincial parks.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand this afternoon to support the petition as presented by my colleague,

the Member for St. John's South. It is clear that the public of this Province

continues to have grave concerns and difficulties with respect to many of the

policies of this government, including the subject matter of the petition just

presented, namely the sale of many of the provincial parks in this Province.

The parks in this Province have been protected by statute, and when we see

now approximately twenty of our parks being privatized it is something which

Newfoundlanders are saying, loudly and clearly, `It goes against the grain'. It

is something which the public of this Province does not support. It is an issue

which has not been accepted widely by the public of this Province.

I had an opportunity over this weekend to speak with many individuals from

across the whole of this Province and Labrador, the Island and Labrador, people

who are concerned with many of the directions that this government is taking and

in particular with respect, as was mentioned earlier, in the areas of health,

social services, education, and not to exclude this government's policy on

parks.

The people of this Province have accepted for many years the fact that the

parks belong to the people of this Province. This is what I referred to earlier

in debate on this issue, a proprietary interest, an ownership interest, which is

of meaning and significance to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. They take

strong objection to government's position that we will just simply, arbitrarily

now allow an individual, pursuant supposedly to the private enterprise system,

allow an individual of means to take away from the ordinary Newfoundlander and

Labradorians that which is his and hers. That is what goes against the grain,

Mr. Speaker. That is why there has been such a loud outcry in recent months in

reaction and response to this particular policy initiative.

In addition, we have the loss of jobs of those individuals who are directly

affected. Individuals who have given many years of service to the provincial

parks system in this Province now find themselves in limbo. In addition is the

consequence and the impact that such a decision may well have on the tourism

industry. There are those individuals who I'm sure have made arrangements, have

made plans, have come to this Province on the understanding that a particular

resource was available, only to find that the whole park network is in a state

of uncertainty. Again this government, I would submit, is in a state of

uncertainty, and it is reflected in these arbitrary meaningless policies similar

to the park proposal which is now before us and which is the subject matter of

this petition.

What I find most amusing is the fact that just three short years ago the

then-Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, by way of a ministerial

statement, made a commitment, made a pledge to the people of this Province, that

the provincial park system was a system that would be here for a long time. I

would like to refer to it very briefly. It says: "Over a span of 40 years, the

provincial park system has evolved from small rest stops along the Trans-Canada

Highway, into a diverse system" -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It wasn't the hon. minister. It goes on: "...into a

diverse system of provincial parks, wilderness reserves and ecological reserves.

Many provincial parks offer a diverse range of outdoor recreational and

environmental education opportunities for our visitors."

The statement went on to say, Mr. Speaker:

"In celebrating the 40th anniversary of our provincial parks, the goal is to

inform Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and visitors to this Province, of the

variety of unique experiences available through parks and reserves and to

demonstrate the vital role that these sites play in preserving our natural

heritage. In connection with the anniversary" - because obviously this statement

was made in celebration of the fortieth anniversary of the system - "a series of

events are being planned that will enable visitors to celebrate our natural

heritage. I encourage all resident and non-resident travellers to take

part in

the activities scheduled to help celebrate this natural heritage" -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: - "and congratulate the employees..."

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member's time is up.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, it is clear that there is significant

support for our provincial park system as it now exists, and I endorse the

wording and the support of those petitioners as referenced. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm rising in my place today to

present yet another petition on behalf of the residents of Newfoundland and

Labrador regarding the privatization of our parks. Some of the signatures on

this - well actually, most of the signatures, are from Pouch Cove, and there are

a few from Flatrock. It seems to me that there is an unending number of

petitions coming in to the members of the Opposition on the privatization of

parks. It seems we just can't run out of them. That will tell you about how much

opposition there is in the Province to the privatization of parks.

The Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation stood in her place, and in

the media talked about how there were seventy-seven signs of interest on the

privatization of parks in Newfoundland and Labrador, rationalizing her decision,

or someone else's decision, to privatize the parks in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Yet we have thousands of names being signed to petitions across this Province,

hundreds of people showing up -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: On this one here there are only about forty or fifty

signatures. That is right, on this petition. I would say to the Minister of

Education, there are forty or fifty. But if there were four, they have a right

to be heard.

But we know there are probably 1,000 times four signatures, thousands upon

thousands of people who have been signing petitions in Newfoundland and Labrador

against the privatization of the parks. Even if there were seventy-eight names,

that would be a good reason not to go ahead with the privatization of the parks,

because the minister is trying to justify it and rationalize it by having

seventy-seven signs of interest. So if he had seventy-eight names it would

outweigh seventy-seven signs of interest, I say you, Mr. Speaker.

Here we are again today presenting these petitions. Now often times the

Minister of Education will question the wording of the petition, but I am not

going to bother to read that out because we have read it numerous times in this

House of Assembly, so there is no need to waste the time of the House of

Assembly to read the petition again. We all know it is a petition against the

privatization of parks in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Now the minister stood in her place answering questions of the Member for St.

John's South with respect to employees. The minister made statements in this

House that the employees would have first choice, first chance, and be given

assistance in the privatization of the parks and she welcomed - welcomed - the

applications from the employees.

Now I know of a case: There were two individuals in my office this morning

who made an application on the privatization of the park in Pouch Cove, called

the Marine Drive Park. Two individuals made application, and it was a good

application, and they contacted the Department of Tourism to try to find out

what the competition was. Of course, they were brushed aside with the attitude

of this administration that they were unimportant and did not mean a row of

beans, but these people were very serious and they were employees of the

department. One of them worked in that particular park. They went today and

asked to have a meeting with certain individuals within the department, and they

would not meet with them. So, in actual fact, they had to go to the Premier's

office to get someone to meet with them in the Department of Tourism, Culture

and Recreation with respect to their application, to see what the answers would

be. We all know that they were supposed to be assessed by now. Two weeks ago, I

think, the successful bidders, I suppose, were supposed to be announced; but it

was delayed and delayed, and is still delayed and they still don't know.

They met with certain individuals within the department and were told they

were not successful. They were not told why, just that another individual had a

better application. Now the other individual or group, were they or are they

representatives of the department who worked with the department? We don't know

at this point in time.

The situation with parks in this Province today is disgraceful. No one knows

what is on the go. Here we are in May, the 24th weekend, the big weekend, only

two weeks away in Newfoundland and Labrador, where the people of this Province

go out by the hundreds and maybe thousands to the different parks in this

Province. They go out in the woods to do a bit of trouting or what have you, and

we still don't know what is going to happen with the parks, or who is going to

own them.

Another point is the fact that there are a certain number of parks left over

- I think twenty-one or twenty-seven parks - to remain as the core park system

in the Province. I said in this House of Assembly, and I will say it again right

here and now, that there is a plan afoot in this Province that the remaining

parks - I suppose the parks that are the cream of the crop - are still there,

but next year or the year after there will be an individual or two, or a group,

of probably known Liberal supporters, make an application or an unsolicited

proposal to take over all the parks in the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador; and what do you think will happen? I would say, to venture a guess,

that they will end up getting them.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. E. BYRNE: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you.

I would venture to guess that in a year or two down the road there will be

certain groups in this Province end up with all the parks and there will be no

public park system in this Province - none - and all the money -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: You are going to get another half-hour of this in the near

future.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: What is your problem?

All of the money that has been put into these parks, all the public funding,

will be gone down the drain and given to a few buddies of the Liberal

administration, which obviously has been the hallmark of this administration to

privatize and to give, give, give, to the people who least deserve it.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. E. BYRNE: Some of the people who are going to receive these parks a

year or two down the road, the cream of the crop, the parks that are left. That

is what is going to happen.

If it was me and there was any way of doing it, I will tell you what I would

do. I would make it known, if I were the Premier of the Province, anybody

getting their hands on these parks, they would be taken back from them. The

parks will be taken back from them when we form the government, because they

belong to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador; and rightly so, Mr. Speaker,

these are the people who paid the taxes. These are the people who put their

money into the parks. These are the people who traditionally use the parks all

over the Province. Now, we have them being given away, and for what, we do not

know. Are they going to be given away for their true value? Are we going to have

a cost benefit analysis done on each park? We do not know. I doubt very much if

we are going to have it done. The bids had to be in by April 1 - April Fool's

Day, I think it was, that the bids had to be in. Again, holding the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador - sucking them in, Mr. Speaker, doing their best to

suck them in, any way they can.

We had the Minister of Environment and Labour make an announcement last year

on the new policy with respect to returnable bottles and returnable cans. We

asked the people to bring them back, giving them six cents or eighteen cents, or

whatever the case may be. Where is all the money going, Mr. Speaker? It is going

to their buddies. That is where the money is going, Mr. Speaker, to their

buddies, nowhere else. That is what the hallmark of this Administration is, and

it is starting to be known, people are starting to see through it. They are

getting tired of it, fed up with it. Just like I am getting tired and fed up

with it. I consider myself an ordinary Newfoundlander, and what I feel in my gut

seems to be what people feel in their guts across the Province. They are getting

tired of it. They are getting tired of being used and abused, Mr. Speaker. They

are getting tired of going to the Health Sciences or the other hospitals to find

that their hospital is closed, they cannot get a bed.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I know what I am talking about when it comes to the Health

Sciences Centre. There are good people in there, excellent people. I always

maintained there are good people in there, but the situation in the hospitals

now - you may talk about relevancy here, but it is all relevant. We are spending

the people's money here. We are abusing the people's money - I cannot say `we';

it is not us on this side of the House. When I say `we' I have to refer to the

government, it is just that I am in the House of Assembly here, Mr. Speaker. I

am in here as one of the members of the House of Assembly and I feel very

fortunate to be here. But when it comes to spending the tax dollars of this

Province, the government is doing a very, very poor job of it. By no stretch of

the imagination can you think they are doing a good job, other than in the

imagination of the Minister of Health. For some strange reason, he thinks he is

doing a grand job with the funds and the public health care system in this

Province, but the people out there are hurting badly. I am not talking about

hurt feelings, I mean, actually physically hurting, waiting to get into

hospital. The minister got up today and talked about -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that he is on a petition and his comments should be

kept relevant to the subject.

MR. J. BYRNE: You are looking for relevancy, I take it, Mr. Speaker.

Well, here is the relevancy. We talked about them selling off these parks to get

revenue for the Province. And the revenue they bring in from these parks,

hopefully, will be spent on the health care system. So there is the relevancy,

Mr. Speaker, there is no trouble to make it relevant.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: That is it, but they are not doing that, Mr. Speaker. They

are taking the money and God knows what they are doing. They are paying their

bills. They are paying the Trans City bills. They are paying the court fees.

They are paying the bills for the Murray Premises, that are going to go to $15

million. That is the relevancy, Mr. Speaker. Proper administration, that is what

we are talking about.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, Mr. Hickman's baby out there, $40 million over and

above the contract; the privatization of Hydro, $10 million or $12 million gone

out of the system. What could that do for the health care system in this

Province, I ask you, Mr. Speaker? What could $12 million do for the

municipalities in this Province?

Now, Mr. Speaker, the privatization of parks in this Province leads me to

another issue which I brought up today in Question Period. When I was at a

meeting in Torbay last February - in the middle of a snow storm - on the parks

in this Province, Mr. Speaker, we had elderly gentlemen coming out, seventy-five

to eighty years old, because they had major concerns about what was going on in

this Province with respect to the parks. The concern that they brought up on the

floor at that meeting was: What is going to happen to our rivers? What is going

to happen to our ponds? Are they going to be privatized? The former

Administration brought in legislation to basically allow an individual or a

group to have access to the water's edge and probably fence right to the water's

edge. That made me think: What is coming down the road, Mr. Speaker, with

respect to the salmon rivers in this Province? Are we going to have individuals

- and this was brought up at the meeting in a question put forward. Is the end

result going to be that we are going to lose access to the rivers and lose

access to our ponds? Now, remember this, Mr. Speaker, today, May 5 at 2:54 p.m.

in the House of Assembly, that I brought up the question about the salmon rivers

and access to the ponds in our Province, which has been traditionally a right, a

tradition of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador to have access.

We are not talking about England or Scotland or other areas where you can buy

a certain length, maybe 100 or 200 or 500 feet along a river, such as had been

done hundreds of years ago. We are not talking about that, Mr. Speaker, we are

talking about people having full, outright access to the rivers in Newfoundland

and Labrador, to the ponds in Newfoundland and Labrador. And privatization of

the parks could be the very first step to losing the rights and traditions of

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to have access to these ponds and rivers, Mr.

Speaker, that is what I am talking about here today. That is only one of the

many things I have been speaking about in this House of Assembly since I came

here back in 1993 - four years ago. I have been very proud to represent first,

the District of St. John's East Extern and now, the District of Cape St.

Francis. As I said earlier, the intent originally, was to privatize the public

beaches, Middle Cove beach, Bellevue beach and a few more.

Now, the day after we brought this to light - I had been on Open Line ,

I had gone to the media about it - the minister issued a release saying it was

reported wrong, that The Evening Telegram made a mistake and should not

have had those beaches in there. But in actual fact, when you looked at the

release that came out from the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation,

Middle Cove beach was clearly there in black and white; Bellevue beach is

another that was there in black and white, and I think Northern Bay Sands was

another. But they withdrew them because they knew there would be a vicious

outcry altogether if they had gone along with that, Mr. Speaker. So the people

of the Province are starting to speak out. They are starting to be upset about

privatization of the parks. They got upset about the privatization of Hydro.

They are getting upset about the privatization of the roads now. There is

going to be an experiment taking place this year on the roads. The Department of

Works, Services and Transportation is going to privatize basically all the areas

for which the depot out in the White Hills is responsible, and other areas on

the Avalon. And, what is going to happen? I can tell you what is going to happen

next winter, Mr. Speaker. It was bad enough this past year when we had a few

snowfalls, when people in Torbay had to line up and wait for hours to get a sand

truck down there, because of cutbacks. And the minister can stand in her place

and say it has nothing to do with cutbacks. I know it does. I have contacted the

department and they gave me all kinds of answers beating around the bush, Mr.

Speaker, and not hitting the main problem, which is the cutbacks.

Now, next year, they are going to privatize this and put it out to

individuals, God knows who, maybe Liberal buddies again, more than likely

Liberal buddies, if, in any way they can pull it off. That is who will get it,

and I am going to be getting calls from Pouch Cove, Flatrock, Torbay and Logy

Bay because the roads are not done. I am going to have to take the crack for the

government. That is what is going to happen, Mr. Speaker, and I am not going to

do it. I am going to put it right where it belongs, right on the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation. I am fed up with it, people are getting fed

up, everybody is getting fed up.

Like the Member for Bonavista South the other day - saying the minister was

mad about this, he was mad about that, he is a mad man. Mr. Speaker, I am

getting to be a fed up man. Everybody in the Province is getting fed up. And the

man walking in now, Mr. Speaker, the former Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation - that is where the problem started, by taking off the wing-men.

As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation, the common nickname around the Province for that man was `the

wing nut', because he took the wing men off.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, the hon. member should keep his comments relevant to the prayer of the

petition.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, relevancy? No problem.

Now, the Department of Works, Services and Transportation -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Again, the hon. member is on a petition and I ask him to keep his remarks

relevant to the topic that is on the prayer of the petition.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will do that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Back to the privatization of the parks. The Speaker thinks I am not being

relevant - I am back to the parks.

Now, Mr. Speaker, with respect to privatization of the parks, I have said

this before in this House of Assembly - I think I was probably one of the first

to mention in this House of Assembly, that the poor people in this Province, and

there are, God knows, enough of them. They have been growing and growing every

day because of this Administration and their policies - but the poor people in

this Province use the parks. They get off for a week or two or maybe even a

weekend in the summertime, as their trip to Florida.

Now, a lot of members on that side of the House, especially the ministers, do

not have to worry about that, but these people do. They have to worry about

getting a few bucks together, maybe $100 or $200 for a weekend or a week, to

take their kids, put them in the trailer and go out to these parks. Now, what is

going to happen, Mr. Speaker? Obviously, if the government says that they are

not making money and are being subsidized - but, we are all paying taxes, Mr.

Speaker. We are all paying taxes for services. I mean, it is getting to the

point now that people do not know what they are paying their taxes for anymore.

But the poor people now who use these parks for a week or a weekend, quite

possibly, will not be able to use them. Why? Because if the government says they

are not viable or not feasible, if private individuals take over, they are going

to have to up the rates for people to get in.

Mr. Speaker, there may be parks in which they will have slides and all kinds

of attractions, and people who are not very well off, you know, the working

poor, of which again there are a great many in this Province, will not want to

go to these parks. Because they are going to have maybe two, three or four kids

who will not be able to go on these slides or get in this pool because they will

not have the money to pay for it. The people who have the money, like the

ministers on this side of the House who support this, will not have any problem

taking their kids to these parks, no problem whatsoever.

This is the type of thing we are looking at. A government when it is elected

is supposed to take care of all people, the rich people, the poor people and the

in-between, all classes. What is going on in this Province today is there are

two classes. There is no middle class anymore, you are either rich or poor in

this Province today, and it is getting worse by the day, almost by the minute.

This petition I am speaking on, on behalf of the people of Pouch Cove, and I

have had petitions here from Long Harbour, Bauline, Torbay, all over -

MR. DECKER: (Inaudible) half an hour and clue up, boy, come on!

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the Minister of Justice, I have been sitting in

this House now for three years, and I look at people like the Minister of

Education there when he gets up to speak to answer a question, who cannot say

`hello' in ten minutes. It takes him ten minutes to say `hello'. There are other

people who get up to speak on that side of the House - the Minister of Fisheries

and Aquaculture gets up to answer a question or to speak, and he goes on and on,

saying nothing. At least I am talking sense here, Mr. Speaker. I am talking

about the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) embarrassing the man, boy!

MR. J. BYRNE: I not only embarrass the man here in the House of Assembly,

I embarrass him on the ballfield, too, no sweat - no problem at all. I cannot

play hockey (inaudible) though.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I do not know how long I can go on. I do not want to be

abusing the time of the House and the leave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Speaking by leave? He can consider it withdrawn now.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, what a speech! What a presentation on a

petition!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: First the member lulls them all to sleep, then he wakes

them all up, and the Government House Leader finally realized what was going on.

Mr. Speaker, I stand to support the petition presented by my hon. colleague

to deal with the privatization of the public park system. There is a number of

questions that have been raised in this House and outside the House. As a member

who was here in 1995 and watched government at the time stand up and say: We are

going to privatize provincial parks - `We are going to save $1 million,' we were

told. Government was going to save approximately $1 million per year in 1995

when it first started to plan for the privatization of every park. What they

said then was that the money that would be saved would be re-invested into the

existing park system - re-invested to ensure that the people of the Province

would get a greater service, re-invested in the park system to ensure the

continued viability of the parks that would be left.

What we saw, really, two years ago, was the beginning of the complete

privatization of all parks. Prior to the Budget the now-Minister of Tourism,

Culture and Recreation stood and talked about the need to privatize more parks.

The present minister said the same as the old minister said two years ago: We

are maintaining and we will continue to maintain a provincial park system. The

question remains: Why should we believe this government now?

Two year ago we were told the exact same thing - two years later, another

change. The ultimate reason and the only reason that government has put forward

for the privatization of parks has been this: If we want to continue and if we

wish to continue to provide the same level of health care, if we wish to

continue and want to continue to provide the same level of education, then we

have to make tough choices, difficult choices. The Premier and the Minister of

Finance have said, we have to make investments and continuing the provincial

park structure at this time is not one of the decisions or choices we would

make. We need the revenue.

MR. EFFORD: You are the Opposition - you do not make the decisions.

MR. E. BYRNE: We need the revenue, we were told.

Government have said -

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) decide next time around, buddy.

MR. E. BYRNE: Government has said: We need it because of revenue.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I can tell you today, that if there were a Tory government

on that side of the House, we would not be wondering what the revenue scene

would be from Voisey's Bay.

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: We would not be wondering what the royalty regime would be

for Voisey's Bay and we would not be wondering what the mining tax would be on a

significant resource like Voisey's Bay.

If there were a Progressive Conservative Government on that side over there,

we would not be giving away jobs related to Terra Nova. We would know what the

royalty regime would be. There would be people employed in our industries and we

would ensure our full and fair share.

The member asks: Where would I get the revenue? Where would we get it? That

would be a start-up, I suggest to the Member for Twillingate and Fogo. Maybe, as

a member on the government side, he can continue to press for what should be

taking place, for what is not taking place with respect to revenues coming from

our resources. That is the reality of it.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to stand and support the petition put forward by

the hon. member and I will continue to support it.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am glad to present this petition today from the people in my district from

the Jacques Cove to Silverdale area, Mr. Speaker. I am going to read the entire

petition, because they put a lot of time into preparing it, and it is very well

done, I might add.

To the hon. House of Assembly:

WHEREAS regional councils may be feasible in some areas, it will not be

feasible in this area because of the distance between communities and the

scattered population; and

WHEREAS in this area the cost of living is already high because of the

distance we travel to work on a daily basis and essential services on a frequent

basis, the result is extremely high gas bills and vehicle repair bills,

especially now with the HST. Since all telephone calls are long distance, except

a for a few local calls, we have extremely high telephone bills as well; and

WHEREAS regional councils or service authorities will raise our cost of

living so high that it will be impossible to survive here. It will result in

extra taxes without additional services which we cannot afford. Property tax

will result in the loss of property, for which we worked so hard. It will cause

forced resettlement, heartache and sorrow. Honest hard-working people who have

worked so hard and paid their fair share of taxes will be ignored. The high tax

on gas, vehicle tires, broken windshields, etc. should be sufficient for snow

clearing, road maintenance, etc.; and

WHEREAS regional councils will not be able to provide additional services to

our area because of the high cost associated with the distance involved. We are

opposed to paying off others' debt, which will be to the detriment and

destruction of out own communities; and

WHEREAS the federation of municipalities do not support the local service

districts, they will continue to undermine and destroy our small communities

once they have bled them financially; and

WHEREAS the government continues to download to the town councils and has

admitted it, they will destroy many little communities financially and

physically in the near future. Government should stop this senseless, ruthless,

savage attack and financial grab from the rural areas;

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the hon. House may be pleased to

request the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador not to force any areas under

regional government, especially local service districts, and as in duty bound,

your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, I presented a petition last week from a group in that area also

on this very important issue, because it hits to the heart of what is happening

today in the Province. I said it just last week, Mr. Speaker, and the rural MHAs

in this House especially, but I know a lot of urban MHA's who travel back and

forth to rural parts of this Province also, will tell you, Mr. Speaker, even the

difference from last week and this week as I travelled to my district and back -

I do not know if it is the timing, that it just all culminated, but it is

getting very serious right now in this Province.

The rural Newfoundland people, and I mean rural Newfoundland, the small

communities, are very upset and on edge right now. And now we have these

petitioners who are talking about having regionalization forced on them again.

The downloading started at the root of the problem, which so many people miss so

often, which started in Ottawa, when the transfer payments were so severely

decreased, we started to see some years ago what the impact would be on this

Province, but now just today, over the last weeks and months, I say, even, as

recent as that, we are now seeing the real effect of the downloading that

started in Ottawa, went to the Provincial Government here, the Provincial

Government took that hot potato and passed it to the municipalities, and now the

municipalities are taking it and handing it right down to the people in rural

parts of this Province. That is where the impact lies.

Really, what is happening here, is we have gotten to the end of the rope on

it. The people in rural Newfoundland are saying: We have finally had enough. I

gave a specific example that can be used by anybody in this House of Assembly

here today. One community within three days got notice that the road was

impassable and could not be driven over, that its hospital was full and could

not be used - that was Monday and Tuesday - and on Wednesday they got word that

their school was closing. One community, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, got those

three bits of news.

Now, Mr. Speaker, that is not a fabricated or dramatized story, that is

exactly what happened in one particular community in three days - the hospital

was full, the road was impassable, and then on Wednesday, bang, on top of

everything else, they were told: By the way, your school here in this community

is now ended. You will ship all students some twenty kilometres to the nearest

school. Your hospital which is full, cannot be used, you will have to go to

Corner Brook, and the road you are driving over to get these people to these

places is not passable.

Can you imagine? That is the blunt reality of what is going on in this

Province in the last few days. I am going to tell you, with health care and the

education mess -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. SHELLEY: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave!

MR. SHELLEY: By leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member does not have leave.

MR. SHELLEY: No leave from the Government House Leader, Mr. Speaker. I

guess I was making sense.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to stand in my place today and support the petition put forward by the

Member for Baie Verte, a petition that hits to the very heart and soul of

Newfoundland and Labrador, and it addresses what is going on in this Province

today.

I was in this House of Assembly talking last week and asking questions about

the political patronage that is going on in this Province. We have the Member

for Twillingate and Fogo just making a comment across this House that he got

$6.5 million for his district, and they are up paving roads in towns where there

are no towns. That is what is going on in this Province today. It is absolutely

disgraceful! We have the most political, patronage group of people in this House

of Assembly since the 1960s, led by his brother, the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs. He has the gall to say over on that side of the House that

they are putting money in roads, paving roads in towns where there are no towns.

That is what the problem is with this Administration. That is what the people in

this Province see today, and they are fed up with it, they are sick and tired of

it.

Now, this petition is about regionalization. And regionalization of services

is not necessarily a bad thing. We were doing it down on the Northeast Avalon

ten years ago without any input from this Administration. We did not have to be

told what to do. We saw what needed to be done and we did it. We did not need to

be told. But this Administration thinks, for some reason or other it gets these

brain waves that pop out of - I should not say brain waves, because the people

who come up with these ideas cannot have any brains. They have some kind of

waves coming out of their heads and they act upon them. That is what is going on

in this Province today. It is sickening, I tell you.

Three years ago I went on a provincial affairs program and made some

predictions on what was going to happen in this Province. You dig it out and

look at it, I say to the Member for Topsail, dig it out and look at it and see

what is going on. Exactly what we said was going to happen is happening. People

are leaving in droves, 17,000 people in the last five years. That is a net

difference. There may have been 4,000, 5,000 or 10,000 come in. Seventeen

thousand gone. How many actually in reality did leave, how many? I do not have

the figures, but there is more than 17,000.

The Leader of the Opposition stood in his place last week and asked the

Premier of the Province a question with respect to what impact that would have

on the transfer payments of this Province. The Premier of the Province stood in

his place and said he did not have a clue! The bottom line, that is what he

said, he did not have a clue about what impact this would have on the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Can you imagine? We have the man who the people of the Province thought last

February was going to walk across the Straits - not going to fly over or come in

a boat - walk across, come back to save the Province, and he didn't even know

what impact 17,000 people would have on the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador. That is what we are up against here.

We see the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs go into communities,

go out across this Province, trying to sell regionalization, and he talks to the

towns and says: Listen here, town of whatever, you pay in taxes. Yet, the

community down the road is not paying any taxes.

That is what he says. What is he doing? He is pitting a town against a

community. It is antagonistic. That is what he is doing in this Province today,

and people are starting to see it.

What did we see last year? We saw the referendum with respect to education.

Now we see school against school. We see church against church.

AN HON. MEMBER: Community against community.

MR. J. BYRNE: Community against community. We see police force against

police force.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member again about -

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

We see hospital against hospital.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that he is on a petition presented by the hon.

Member for Baie Verte and that his remarks should be relevant to the prayer of

the petition.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We see worker against worker. We are talking about regionalization here, and

the intentions of this administration to bring people out of the rural parts of

the Province and try to centralize them.

We are not only talking about centralizing in areas in the main locations in

the Province, such as Corner Brook, St. John's, Grand Falls, Gander, and getting

people in from the smaller communities. I think there is some kind of plan afoot

- I don't know if they are in cahoots, the government or not; maybe some big

business might have to get people out of the Province altogether and get our

numbers down for some strange reason.

I am of a different opinion. I believe we should have an influx of people

into the Province. As a matter of fact, we should have an influx of people into

the country. It is because it is such a sparsely populated country that we have

some of the problems.

The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture is over there looking at me like -

I don't know how to describe it, but he is over there shaking his head,

disagreeing of course.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I hear something from the man from Port de Grave over there.

Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here to present on the privatization of our

provincial parks. Again, another petition, people speaking out against the

privatization of our provincial parks, and there are several reasons why we have

thousands and thousands of names on the privatization of our provincial parks.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. OSBORNE: If you were listening you would have known.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OSBORNE: Mr. Speaker, on the privatization of provincial parks, for

the benefit of those members in the House who have no idea what is happening in

Her Majesty's House, this petition against the privatization of provincial

parks... We have thousands and thousands of names against the privatization of

provincial parks and, for obvious reasons, people are upset because that would

reduce the number of provincial parks in Newfoundland and Labrador to thirteen.

There are 120 provincial parks in Nova Scotia. There are seventeen provincial

parks in Prince Edward Island, fifteen in the Yukon Territories, and we are

going to be left with thirteen. That is disgusting, and the people of our

Province are not prepared to accept that.

Mr. Speaker, that would create a loss of economic spin-off to some

businesses, some convenience stores and so on in communities in which these

provincial parks are located. We realize that even if these provincial parks,

once privatized, are operated profitably and are operated efficiently, part of

the reason they will be operated profitably and efficiently is because they will

have their own amenities, their own convenience stores, which means the

convenience stores that are in the communities and towns neighbouring these

provincial parks will simply be put out of business, and I am sure that the

people in these communities fear that.

Mr. Speaker, the ability of the Province to promote these parks as provincial

parks will be lost. Our travel and tourism guides this year list these

twenty-one parks as provincial parks, and that is going to create tremendous

confusion for the people who visit our Province, the tourists who come into our

Province.

Because when these tourists visit our Province and drive up to one of these

private parks, expecting the park to be a provincial park and find out that it

isn't, and that the park may not offer the same standards and the safety

standards and the same security that is offered in a provincial park, that will

create tremendous confusion. It will create humilation to the people of our

Province, to our tourism industry, unfortunately.

The parks workers who worked in these parks for many years have been told

with very little notice, if any, that all of a sudden now they are going to be

put out of work. There are ninety-two parks workers who are affected by the

privatization of these provincial parks. We are told that forty-five of these

workers are going to retain employment through the provincial park system, and

that in itself creates a problem. Because these forty-five people who are going

into the provincial park system, there is going to be a cost to our Province of

$100,000, which is $100,000 less the Province is going to save on the

privatization of provincial parks, over and above the loss of employment to our

students that was offered and counted on every year through the provincial park

system.

Back in 1995 in the provincial Budget the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation at that time - he is now the Minister of Education - promised that

the monies saved through the privatization of twenty-eight parks at that

particular time would be approximately $1 million, and that money would be

reintroduced, reinvested, into our provincial parks that were remaining to

enhance those parks. That money was intended to upgrade those parks as far as

washroom facilities and shower facilities and electricity, and some of the

basics that tourists expect and demand in provincial park systems.

Part of the reason the government has to complain about the visitorship in

these parks being low is because some of these amenities right now, such as

electricity and showers and washrooms, do not exist. If that money was

reinvested into these provincial parks to enhance them, the visitorship in these

parks would be up, naturally, because these parks would be up to the standard

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. OSBORNE: By leave, Mr. Speaker, a couple of closing comments.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave!

MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On that I'm proud to represent the

people signing the petition.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in my place of course to

support the petition put forward by the Member for St. John's South, a petition

on the privatization of the parks. I could read it if you want me to. I don't

think it is necessary. It is the same thing we have read here - we have probably

read fifty or sixty of them already, same wording.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I probably can't. How about that? I'm doing a good job for

not being able to read though, aren't I? What? I say to the minister. Mr.

Speaker, the question has to be asked: Why?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Why?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible)!

MR. J. BYRNE: Why is this Administration privatizing the parks in

Newfoundland and Labrador? The answer is it started last year. What happened

last year?... we had the same Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, the

Member for Gander, wanting to end the gravel pit camping in this Province.

The question was asked last year: Why did they want to end gravel pit camping

in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador? I was against it and some members

on this side of the House here got up against it. Because they were going to see

a tradition end in Newfoundland and Labrador, a tradition that developed over

the past fifty years, Mr. Speaker, in gravel-pit camping and which is a misnomer

by the way, Nr Speaker. We saw a tradition going to end and she backed off

because of public pressure, but over the winter, for some reason or other, and

it may have to do with the problem of her sleeping in too many igloos and her

brain got frozen or something, Mr. Speaker, it may have to do with that, so it

goes back to: why are they trying to privatize the parks and if they got rid of

the gravel-pit campers in this Province, now we will see a number of people

being forced to use or to utilize the parks so if we have a greater number of

people utilizing the parks, now, aha, we can probably get a few more bucks for

our buddies and force them into the parks. That is what is going on in the

Province, Mr. Speaker, all to do with buddies and buddy systems.

As I said earlier when I stood in my place, about the different privatization

of the roads, who is going to get that? Who is going to get the privatization of

Hydro, when they were doing that and it goes on and on and on, Mr. Speaker, and

the people in the Province are getting tired of it. They are getting fed up with

it as I said earlier in this House of Assembly, today, and I know that I am. As

a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, and you can believe it or not, I am almost

getting tired of talking about it in this House of Assembly, about the

privatization of the parks; I am almost getting tired of it but we only have

about another 100 or 200 petitions up there to talk about it so we have our jobs

cut out for us. We have a lot of time to take up in this House of Assembly to

talk about the privatization of the parks.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, not necessarily. They are coming in. I mean, they are

coming in and coming in and coming in all the time. I know that there are

petitions all around the Island, people are still signing petitions.

MR. TULK: Is that why I see Federal Express (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: It could be I don't know. Quite possibly, the Federal

Express may be here with hundreds of them, so -

MR. TULK: Pony Express (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Pony Express. The Minister of Forestry Resources and

Agrifoods is talking about ponies for some reason or other. The Minister of

Forestry Resources and Agrifoods is talking about ponies today and horses and

all that kind of stuff and obviously, as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, that this

administration went back thirty years last week in time, with respect to

patronage and what have you but for some strange reason and I don't have any

idea why, the Minister of Forestry Resources and Agrifoods is talking about

horses and ponies and cowboys and what they like, Mr. Speaker, that I think he

has gone back maybe, a hundred years in time.

MR. TULK: No, no. (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: The Minister of Forestry Resources and Agriculture is

referring to our convention on the weekend.

I do not know if I could make that relevant or not, Mr. Speaker, to this

petition, but we have had 400 people out there, 400 loyal Tories and as a matter

of fact, we had one individual who came into our meeting - and probably there

were more because I did not get to meet them all personally - who stood at a

public meeting and said: Listen. I have voted Liberal the last time and it will

be the last time I will ever vote Liberal, and he apologized for voting Liberal,

apologized, can you imagine apologizing for voting Liberal? I can understand -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: - and he did it for nothing. He did it for nothing.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just a couple of quick minutes to remind the hon. members opposite about the

petitions they are presenting to the government side not to privatize parks. The

purpose and the reason why we are privatizing parks is to create an opportunity

for private citizens in this Province to operate something that government

should not be in the business of operating. Create jobs in the private sector,

give private business the opportunity to do that.

It is too bad that members opposite don't -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh come on; do you believe that?

MR. EFFORD: It is too bad - just listen now for a second, I am only going

to be a minute. It is too bad that members opposite do not practice what they

preach day after day here, keeping jobs in Newfoundland and Labrador.

During their convention this past weekend, the big celebration which they are

entitled to under the Democracy to have, you would think, Mr. Speaker, with the

Cabot 500 celebrations, it would be something to do with the 500 celebrations

and it would be something to show how interested they are that they helped the

government to create a stable economy in this Province. What did they do, Mr.

Speaker?

AN HON. MEMBER: Promote Mexico.

MR. EFFORD: They promoted Texas, cowboys from Texas. Where did they buy

their products? Out of Nova Scotia, made in Mexico.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. EFFORD: Now, this is a group of people who are up here in the House

of Assembly every day, promoting Newfoundland and Labrador.

AN HON. MEMBER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. John's South -

MR. OSBORNE: Mr. Speaker, if he is speaking to the petition, shouldn't

there be relevance?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Is the hon. member speaking to the petition?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Just to conclude, Mr. Speaker, not waste the valuable time of

the hon. House, just to conclude, to remind members opposite that privatization

of parks in Newfoundland is not closing parks, it is giving private industry an

opportunity out there to be involved in private industry, to create an

environment, to provide a service, which I have said for years that government

should not be involved in, creating a good economy, opportunities for

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, not opportunities for Nova Scotia and not

opportunities for Mexico.

MR. J. BYRNE: What about our flags, the Cabot 500 flags, the Cabot 500

pins and all of that. Where was that done?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just to comment on the privatization issue.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. minister is out of order.

MR. MATTHEWS: Out of order. Well, the hon. minister will sit down.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If I had a minute or so of leave when I was presenting my petition on parks

earlier it would have been sufficient, but I feel the need to present another

petition to elaborate further on what I was speaking on and perhaps then the

Minister of Health can get up and comment on what he wanted to say.

Mr. Speaker, yet again another petition on the privatization of provincial

parks and we have many, many more of these yet to present and I assure you that

we will present them.

Mr. Speaker, I was saying that in 1995, the government in their budget said

that, the money saved through the privatization of provincial parks would be

reinvested into the parks to enhance the parks and to bring the standards of

theses parks up, such as washroom facilities, shower facilities and so on and

once these facilities were brought up perhaps then the visitors into these parks

would be increased. Mr. Speaker, I believe that that is a fact because the

records show that the parks that are in place right now with these amenities are

the ones that are most frequently used and are the most profitable.

Mr. Speaker, in 1995 the government conducted a task force to evaluate the

current parks system, it identified the strengths and weaknesses and made

recommendations for improvement. Based on the recommendations of that task

force, improvements to the system in `95 included parks classification, extended

seasons for selected parks, a revised wilderness and ecological reserve program

and the closure of twenty-nine parks.

Mr. Speaker, if there was a need to privatize parks, perhaps that would have

been recognized during the task force of 1995, but it was not and it was not

enforced in 1995. What was enforced in 1995 was the closure of twenty-nine

parks, of which twelve were privatized and ten of those are still operating.

Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is today that this is a quick grab on

dollars. The Department of Tourism needed to save some money, so they figured a

easy way to save, is $1.8 million through the privatization of provincial parks

at sell out prices and they are going to recover somewhere between $9 and

$20,000 from the rumours we hear, now that may or may not be fact.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that total or in part?

MR. OSBORNE: That is per park. So, that may or may not be fact, but those

are the rumours we are hearing from the employees from the Department of Tourism

calling and giving us hints and giving us information and so on.

So, Mr. Speaker, a park that we have invested hundreds of thousands of

dollars into over the years, to retrieve $9,000 on it is a slap in the face to

the people of our Province, to the people that invested the money into these

parks, the people that own these parks.

Mr. Speaker, there is no need to privatize these parks. If they were to

invest the money that they promised to invest into these parks, in the 1995

budget, these parks would have the amenities enhanced, such as washrooms and

shower facilities and electricity and the visitors in these parks would be

increased.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Tourism, two weeks prior to her announcement to

privatize these parks, sent around to each one of the members of the House

applications for student employment. We find out now that obviously this

decision was made in haste because they are not providing any student employment

now, not even in the remaining thirteen parks. So, two weeks prior the minister

did not even know she was going to privatize these parks until somebody came to

her and said, Mrs. Minister you must privatize the parks to save money in the

tourism budget.

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the people of this Province are being hoodwinked.

The employees of the parks are being hoodwinked. The ninety-two employees that

are being affected by the privatization of these provincial parks, Mr. Speaker -

we are told ninety-two employees by the Department of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation but in actual fact there are 142 seasonal employees and students that

are being affected by the privatization. Forty-five of those are going to be

rehired at a cost of $100,000 plus the wages that would have been paid to the

students and yet we are going to deny the students the privilege and the right

to work in the provincial parks that have been offered to them for many, many

years. Mr. Speaker, some of the parks that are being privatized, one has to

wonder why those particular parks are being privatized, such as the ones closer

to St. John's that have proven to be the more profitable parks. Catamaran Park

out on the West Coast has proven to be one of the more profitable parks. Where

has the wisdom, where has the logic come from, Mr. Speaker, in the decision on

which parks they were going to privatize let alone the decision to privatize

these particular parks?

Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province deserve to be heard. Their voices

deserve to be heard and that is precisely why we are going to present petition

after petition after petition on the privatization of provincial parks in this

House of Assembly and on that, Mr. Speaker -

MR. E. BYRNE: Petitions that have been sent in to us.

MR. OSBORNE: Petitions that have been sent in to us. On an earlier

petition today I presented the names from Gander, Gambo and that area. The last

one I presented were names from the areas of Torbay, Bauline, Pouch Cove and

even up as far as Tors Cove on that particular petition. This one, Mr. Speaker,

there are St. John's, Tors Cove, Mount Pearl, Torbay, St. Mary's -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. OSBORNE: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will sit down on that and I will present another

petition this afternoon because I feel that the people of the Province need to

be heard on this issue.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am going to take a few minutes to support the petition put

forward by the Member for St. John's South.

Today I spoke earlier for a few minutes on a petition that I presented on

behalf of the people in Pouch Cove, Torbay and Flatrock. Mr. Speaker, the

minister made a statement in this House of Assembly and in the public that the

employees would have basically the first chance at the privatization of these

parks. She made that quite clear. She said that there would be possible

assistance for these people and that they would be given special consideration.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I know of individuals who have applied to privatize the

park on Marine Drive. One individual worked at the park and they were supposed

to be given special consideration. Now I had meetings with these people and they

told me that the only advantage they had was that in the evaluation of the

proposals coming in they would be given ten points out of 100. So now if we had

a group - and we brought this forward before, Mr. Speaker - of employees that

wanted to make application to privatize a park, right off the bat, Mr. Speaker,

they are at a disadvantage because most of these people are working week by week

for their pay cheque and often times they are summer employees. They get enough

to qualify for UI and then they are back there again next year. So now these

people are at a disadvantage. So the minister said maybe there will be a

possibility to give them financial assistance. I know that these individuals

looked for this financial assistance and there was no assistance forthcoming.

They put in an application and, Mr. Speaker, they were told today - they had a

meeting today after going and talking to the Department of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation and being told no, they were not going to have a meeting. Then they

went to the Premier's office, Mr. Speaker, and ended up getting a meeting. Now

is that fair access to the public servants of this Province?

I phoned two weeks ago, Mr. Speaker, looking for information specifically

with respect to the park on Marine Drive. I wanted to know how many applications

were there and who made the applications. No, I could not have the information

until it was completely analyzed, reviewed and what have you and the decisions

made. Well, Mr. Speaker, once a decision is made - by the way, these individuals

who made this application on the Marine Drive were told quite clearly that you

probably would not even know anything about it until you saw the successful

candidate or group working down in the park. Now, Mr. Speaker, is there any

fairness there? How would these individuals have any time or chance to appeal a

decision that had been made by the minister in awarding this contract? Who knows

the conditions? Who knows the terms of the application on the privatization of a

park? Is park `a' or park `b' going to have the same terms? Are they going to

have the same conditions? Are they going to have the same requirements? We don't

know, and the people who apply for it don't know. Those are just some of the

problems that individuals are having out there.

Also, the announcement was made that the applications had to be in, I think,

by early April - April 1, or something like that - so decisions could be made so

that people would have access to the parks this year. Now we find it is May 5,

two weeks away from the long weekend, and decisions have yet to be made. Now

these people are going to have to gear up, get into the parks and do what they

would have to do if they are privatized. It seems like a foregone conclusion

that they are going to be privatized, no doubt about that. We have presented

petitions. We have asked questions in this House of Assembly of the minister,

and it is like water on a duck's back.

The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture stood in his place today and talked

about the whole idea of how we are going to create jobs by putting it out to the

private sector. The Member for St. John's South just stood in his place and said

that two years ago when they privatized nineteen parks, seventeen closed. So

where is the job creation? All for the sake of $1.8 million, the park system

that has been open over the years by the people of this Province, has been paid

for by the people of this Province, $1.8 million a year for a public service to

allow the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador to have access to

the great outdoors.

Now we see the minister also trying to pull back on the gravel pit campers.

That is another sore issue out there, and I can tell the members on that side of

the House, every last one of them over there. Some of them may smile and laugh

and joke that there are no parks in their district, or there is only one park in

their district, but this will be an issue to come back and haunt this

administration. You can mark it down. It will come back to haunt this

administration, and rightly so.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture is not worth

wasting my breath on, I say.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member rising to speak to the same petition?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am rising to present another petition on the privatization -

AN HON. MEMBER: If they would let you talk, you would not keep doing it.

MR. OSBORNE: If they let me talk, I could get all of this out by 4:30

p.m. or so and I wouldn't have to present any more petitions this afternoon.

Mr. Speaker, I am presenting yet another petition on the privatization of

provincial parks. I guess the reasoning behind this is that the people of the

Province have a right to be heard and obviously they have sent their petitions

in to us so that their voices can be heard. They want their voices heard. They

do not want their parks privatized. They are against the privatization of

provincial parks.

I have a list here of the parks that are being privatized and the ones that

are not being privatized as well. Fitzgerald's Pond, for example, had four

seasonal employees and two students. Those jobs are gone. Marine Drive had one

seasonal employee and two students. Those jobs are gone. Northern Bay Sands had

four seasonal employees and two students. Those jobs are gone. Backside Pond had

five seasonal employees and three students. Those jobs are gone. Gushue's Pond

had seven seasonal employees and five students. Those jobs are gone. Square

Pond, five seasonal employees and four students. Those jobs are gone. David

Smallwood Park which, I might add, the Mayor of Gambo was told would not be

privatized this year - he came publicly and complained that that park was being

privatized; he was given no notice that park was being privatized - those jobs

are gone. Windmill Bight, four seasonal employees and two students; those jobs

are gone. Jonathan's Pond, five seasonal employees and four students; those jobs

are gone. Bellevue Beach, five seasonal employees and three students; those jobs

are gone. Jack's Pond Provincial Park, four seasonal employees and three

students; those jobs are gone. Beothuck Park, eight seasonal employees and five

students; those jobs are gone. Catamaran Park, six seasonal employees and four

students. Those jobs are gone. Little River, three seasonal employees. Those

jobs are gone. Indian River, four seasonal employees, one student. Those jobs

are gone. Grand Codroy, six seasonal employees and two students. Those jobs are

gone. Picadilly Head, four seasonal employees and two students. Those jobs are

gone. Flatwater Pond, three seasonal employees and two students. Those jobs are

gone. Sop's Arm, three seasonal employees and one student. Those jobs are gone.

River of Ponds, four seasonal employees and two students. Those jobs are gone.

Duley Lake, three seasonal employees and two students. Those jobs are gone.

I can look across this House and there is no embarrassment on the faces of

the members across except for the Member for Windsor - Springdale. He is

ashamed, we can tell he's ashamed. He spoke out and said he was ashamed. Other

than that there is no embarrassment on the faces of the members across. All

those students. They have the gall, they have the face to say to those students:

Your jobs are gone. Forty-five of those seasonal employees will be rehired

through the existing parks at a cost of the salaries that were paid to the

student employees, and $100,000 a year. So right off the bat we are down from

$1.8 million to $1.7 million.

This year the government is going to put in force a support staff and support

measures at a cost that the minister was unable to give us to make sure that

this year the standards are kept up to as close a level as possible to the

provincial parks that are in place. That is embarrassing. It is embarrassing

because we have come out and said that there is no need to privatize parks this

year during the Cabot 500 celebration. The Program Review that was accepted by

the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, Parks and Recreation

division, stated that there is absolutely no need to experiment with the

privatization of provincial parks this year. Yet the minister in her wisdom

decides to privatize these parks -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. OSBORNE: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave!

MR. OSBORNE: Mr. Speaker, by leave.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has been denied leave.

MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just a few words to support the

petition on parks. The department itself in its own internal review indicated

that it isn't in the best interest to even look at privatizing parks,

particularly in light of the 500th year. I mean, we still don't know today what

hands the parks are going to be in, and parks are ready to open. It isn't

indicative of very good planning, not at all. It isn't what people were led to

believe.

This government has practised consultation. We had the Minister of Finance

and Treasury Board and his associate minister the Member for Conception Bay East

& Bell Island go around this Province on a pre-Budget consultation process.

There was no question asked: Do you feel we should privatize parks? There were

many questions asked in that Budget consultation, and that was not one of them.

This government has indicated the reason it did it was because of finances. If

it did it because of finances, other policy, it should have been included and

asked of the people of the Province in a normal, upfront budget consultation

process. Because that is the only reason it gives for doing it. There is no

other reason I heard from the minister.

Also, not only is it impacting on the parks that are being privatized, it is

impacting on the youth of our Province that would be employed in other parks

that they are not planning on privatizing. There are no students going to get

work, the Butter Pot and La Manche park and those parks anymore, the

interpreters, the

interpretations of those processes because of this we are

going to have people coming in to do

interpretation of these parks that are not

going to be familiar with the area. I know in my area, in La Manche Park for

example, I believe all of the employees will be different, even though it is not

privatized. I understand students will not get work there. People who are not

familiar, I mean knowing the area is a big advantage. Where someone can obtain

propane, where they can obtain various supplies, where convenience stores are,

be able to explain the history of the area, what the general area has to offer,

the archaeological dig: the Colony of Avalon, we can direct people to where

Peter Eastman the pirate came ashore and where he waited in hiding.

Those areas, all aspects are known and they are relayed there and I certainly

hope the minister is cognisant of this particular concern, especially. I know I

have raised it with the minister. I called and raised it, I had a call back I

must say from her deputy minister and spoke with and raised the concerns that I

feel in the area how it is going to have a detrimental affect on tourism and I

ask them to do what they can in their power to ensure that it does not happen

because I do not want people coming into an area, not being able to obtain

information, not knowing what attractions you can have in an area, when you are

new and pushed in there a week before it opens and as of now, I am not aware,

two weeks ago they were not or last week, I do not know if they are aware now,

even in La Manche Park for example, not being privatized and still a whole new

set of workers coming in and everybody there are going to be gone.

Now, that is a concern because in that park the people took a pride in that

park, they worked double the hours they were getting paid and what they did on

their own, they even went and applied for funding under some federal programs to

get money to enhance the park, they did that on their own initiatives. They took

a pride in it because it is a part of their area and now those initiatives will

very likely not continue. They have done considerable improvements there, not

provincial dollars, they were successful as a group in getting access to some

other dollars of a federal nature that enhanced our provincial parks without

being a big drain here in the Province to do it and many people donated their

time and effort, above and beyond their regular working hours, out there and it

is unacceptable, it is unacceptable the process in which it was done alone, the

process alone is unacceptable. There was not any discussion, not even adequate,

there was no discussion and any members who sit here in this House and tries to

tell that their constituents of this Province, that their people here pushed

them to privatize parks, they would not be telling the truth because the people

want to have provincial parks within the system.

Now, if people want to establish their private parks around the Province,

that opportunity is there and there are some, there are some attractions where

people want to take their kids, whether it is numerous others, ones that have

water slides and attractions, they are fine too, we need some of that. We need a

choice, we need to have those options, but we also need to have spaces that are

free and open spaces, ones that are under provincial government control, ones

that can preserve the integrity of the land and surrounding area.

One can ensure, that people working these parks and the people that come to

these parks are going to have their best interests at heart and they are going

to be a place quiet and so on where certain standards are kept.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. members time is up.

MR. SULLIVAN: Just by leave to finish up, one minute.

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SULLIVAN: Just a half minute to finish up.

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has been denied leave.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion No. 3, first reading, the hon. the Minister

of Justice.

MR. SPEAKER: Motion, the Hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a Bill

entitled, "An Act to Amend The Judgment Enforcement Act," carried. (Bill No. 3).

On Motion, Bill No. 3 read a first time, ordered read a second time on

tomorrow.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Motion No. 4 and 5, if I can call both of them at the same time

and it will save us some time.

MR. SPEAKER: We will do them one at a time since it is two different

ministers.

Motion, the Hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a Bill entitled, "An

Act To Remove Anomalies And Errors In The Statute Law," carried. (Bill No. 4).

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill entitled, "An

Act To Amend The Judgement Enforcement Act," carried. (Bill No. 9).

On motion, Bill No. 9 read a first time ordered read a second time on

tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation to introduce

a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Wilderness And Ecological Reserves Act,

carried. (Bill No. 10).

On motion, Bill No. 10 read a first time ordered read a second time on

tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion No. 1, the Budget Speech.

MR. SPEAKER: Motion No. 1, the Budget Speech.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On Thursday before we left, I was speaking about the declining population of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: For the round-up I say to the Government House Leader, and

what a round-up it was! About 400 Tories out in Gander, what a round-up.

AN HON. MEMBER: Did you count twice.

MR. E. BYRNE: No, 280 delegates, 110 observers and the remainder spouses

and friends of those who came, Mr. Speaker, about 400 Tories on Saturday so what

a round-up it was. What a round-up it was. At the banquet, the most telling, Mr.

Speaker, of all the comments in Gander on Sunday came from the most unlikely

source.

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. E. BYRNE: The most telling comment. Somebody who showed up at the

dinner to welcome people, say `hello', (inaudible) and crucified the government,

said what happened, what it was doing to the area. He told the truth and

predicted that the Member for Gander would be a one-term member only. So, yes,

it was a great weekend, I say to the Government House Leader, a great weekend of

about 400, too bad that you could not be there. Too bad you could not be there

as a constituent of mine, I say to the Government House Leader, the invitation

was opened to everyone in the District of Kilbride, I am just sorry that you did

not take advantage of that opportunity.

Now, Mr. Speaker, back to the Budget Debate. On Thursday when we left here,

Mr. Speaker, I was talking about the declining population of Newfoundland and

Labrador and how serious an issue it is. On two occasions I have asked, on one

occasion the Premier, today, the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, on what

the impact would be on the Budget, and I have gotten two different responses.

On Friday or last week, the Premier said directly to me in response that:

government were surprised by the numbers released by Stats Canada. He did not

believe it was that high, couldn't believe that it was that high and that he

would have to ask his officials to have a look at it and see what the impact

would be financially on the government's Budget. But he missed the point. He

missed the point. Instead, Mr. Speaker, he should have been thinking about: why

is this happening, not what the impact would be on his Budget this year but why

did 17,000 pack up and leave this Province?

Now today, in questioning, the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board said:

They weren't surprised by the numbers. The Province's tracking of the number of

people leaving the Province, their own tracking, how they do it, was more dead

on and they were not surprised. It leads me to believe, Mr. Speaker, that they

know full well what is happening and are prepared to do nothing about it or at

least not even to admit that there is a problem.

Now I have asked the Premier and the Minister of Finance publicly, what would

be the impact, financially, on the Province as we struggle to maintain roads, as

we struggle to maintain schools for the people of this Province and as we

struggle to maintain hospitals? Can we afford to lose another $52 million from

transfer payments? No we can't but it's a circle.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to say - for the record - that over the last five

years Canada's, as a nation, population growth has led all industrialized

nations in the world. We are still frontrunners compared to the entire

industrial world. Between 1991 and 1996, Mr. Speaker, Canada's population - the

nation that we are a part of - the population ultimately grew at an annual

average rate of about 1.1 per cent. Mr. Speaker, if you look at, province by

province, the most telling story begins to be told. The North West Territories

population increased by 11.7 per cent in the last five years; the Yukon

Territory population increased by 10.7 per cent in the last five years; British

Columbia's population, highest in Canada, increased by 13.5 per cent in the last

five years; Alberta, an increase of 5.9 per cent; Saskatchewan, a province not

unlike ours, having difficult times financially, yet their population increased

by 0.1 per cent; Manitoba, another western province, their population increased

by 2.0 per cent; Ontario, over the last five years, its population has increased

by 6.6 per cent; Quebec experienced a population increase of 3.5 per cent; New

Brunswick, 2.0 per cent; Nova Scotia, an increase of 1 per cent; Prince Edward

Island, an increase of 3.7 per cent and, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador,

a decrease in population of 2.7 per cent. The only province in Canada, Mr.

Speaker, that in the last five years has experienced a population decrease. Now,

Mr. Speaker, what this means for the people of the Province, while they may not

realize it or understand it directly, it is probably the most distributing trend

that will impact on each and every one of our lives.

The Premier said two weeks ago - I believe it is in the

article here, let me

have a look - in an Evening Telegram

article on April 16, 1997 that he

was somewhat surprised at the huge decrease in the population figures. February

25, 1996, a prediction was made - that was three days after the last provincial

election - the new Premier, at that time was interviewed but the prediction was

then known and it was publicly made clear, the debate happened and started to

begin there on what it would mean financially, what it would mean to the people

of this Province, what out-migration is doing. Let's have a look, right here it

leads off, it says check your calendar, by this time next week ninety more

people will have left this Province. This time next week, almost another 100

people will have left this Province and Stats Canada has said that they - some

sobering demographic information that it has released to us, Mr. Speaker. By

this time next week another ninety people will have left this Province. As I

said, Stats Canada has released some sobering information.

AN HON. MEMBER: This week in Paquet, the Baie Verte Peninsula, twenty-one

people (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: There we go, just an example. In Paquet, a community that I

know, a community that I've been into on a number of occasions, in this member's

district, twenty-one people left last week. Last week alone in Paquet. Paquet

has, what, a population of a couple of hundred people?

AN HON. MEMBER: Three hundred people.

MR. E. BYRNE: Three hundred people. At that rate that community will have

disappeared if that trend continues in that community alone.

Mr. Speaker, the information released by Stats Canada on