Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, May1, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 64

May 1, 197, Tapa No. 1337 NM - 1 The House met at 10:00 A.H. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I would like to welcome to the galleries fifteen boys and girls from the Training School at Plea antville, accompanied by teachers and supervisor, Mr. Anthony and Mrs. Dubbin, on behalf of all members of the honourable House I welcome you here and trust that your visit is most interesting and informative. PETITIONS: MP.. SPEAKER: The honourable 111ember for White Bay South. MR.. WM. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a very massive petition which I have received from the voters in the area of La Scie in White Bay South, the-community sourro1n1ding La Scie and around La 'Scie, all communities on the La Scie Highway u a matter of fact. I believe that my honourable friend the member for Green ~ay baa r~eeiveu, similiar petition and I a sur~ th-th~ will wcU&t to say a word or two in support of this petition as well. The brief in support of the petition, Mr. Speaker, a petition to upgrade and pave the La Scie Hi1hway,states that the La Scie Highway, the thirty-five mile

section of roadway connecting the Town of La Scie with the Baie Verte Highway, provides the main overload acceaa in linbge to such communities as Ming's Bight ·, Pacquet, Woodatoclt, Hippen Harbour, Round Harbour, Harbour Round, Brant'• Cove, Saoob Arm, Tilt Cove, Shoe Cove and so on. A thirty-five mile

section of road vu constructed from rock boulder filled with some avamp soil and crushed rock topping,they say. There is no local supply of gTavel to maintain the topping and the small crusher opeTated by the Departaent of Highways during the summer cannot supply adequate topping. The result is that the road gTaden have scTaped away all the topping,exposing large boulders from the Toad base ~n that the road can no longer be adequately paved nor drained,re ulting in potholes, ruts, vuhboard bumps and boulders over ac,at of the thirty-five miles. Without a upply of new road topping, the 6346·

May 1, 1973 Tape No. 1337 NM - 2 MR. WM. ROWE: road simply cannot be maintained, I can testify to that statement from my own personal experience over the past six to seven to ten years. There is a sizeable population served by this road as well as several major industries, namely Conolidated Rambler Mines, a massive mining operation in the area; Job Brothers Fish Packing Plant,which is of ~ourse the sourc• of employment for hundreds of fishermen and plant workers in the area; Burton's Transport; Cid Sacrey Construction Limited; Northeast Enterprise, etc.

The personal cost to residents for vehicle maintenan~e and the cost to companies . for maintenance of vehicles operating over this road is becoming prohibited. I would say, Sir, that that is an . accurate statement and is actually raising the cost of living of these same residents as well as discouraging some industries attempting tc operate in the area. Tiaac is che gist of tne brief, Sir.

They go on to se.y they do not want to ment~on the J:•eople vho use the road - Rambler Mines for example,receives approximately 15,000 tons of freight supplies per year,handled by transport trucks over the La Scie Highway,and of course they use the highway to ship ore as well. People going to hospital must use the road and of course hoepital employees and all supplies to the area must use that road at oae point or another. In short, Sir, they summarize by saying thatl.a Scie is a very vital part of the lives of those citizens and immediate action should be initiated to upgrade and pave this road.

This petition carries 1.800 '9 names of residents of communities served by the La Scie Highway who are demanding immediate action to upgrade and pave this road, Then they give an indication as to the kind of interest shown by the electorate in the area 475 sistnatures from La Scie, 56 from Snooks Arm, 110 from Barbour Round and so on down through, Sir, which I would imagine, just loolt -iftg at it here, just running over it, I would imagine that nearly every eligible ·~ter in the communities mentioned has. in fact signed his or i;347

May 1, 1973 Tape No. 1337 NM - 3 MR. WM. ROWE: her name to this petition, They want to say that copies of this have been sent to the Government of Newfoundland, · the member for Green Bay; myself; Mr. Rompl-.ey, M.P., Grand Falls - White Bey- Labrador, because of course DREE comes into the picture; the honourable Don Jamieson 1to the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communication• It is interesting, Sir, that not only is this petition signed by individual residents of the area but we have testimony from various industries a well.

For example Gid Whalen, the Imperial ESSO a~ent, for example,haa written us a letter in which he mentions that it is vitally neceasary that this road be upgraded, Imperial Oil Limited. Consolidated Rambler Mines, the manager has written a letter of support to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, particularly to the minister concerned, the Minister· of Transport. Kand K Trucking Limited; the White Bay Soutli P.C. - I must say that I did not know that existed but it 1a -interesting to see. MR. ROBERTS: A amall select group. MR. WM. ROWE: A small but very vigorous group,! am led to wderstaacl, Sir. MR.

PEC1t10RD: It is the honourable member for Green Bay you He, MR. WM. ROWE: ln that case we have a Moore-bound organisation. But in any event, ' Sir, I am glad to receive the support of that organization. La Scie Integrated High School, the staff thereof, favour the petition requesting better road conditions. The Integrated Elementary School of La Scie, the Town of La Scie itaelf, signed by the Mayor, Mr. William Chip~who is a good friend of mine and the member for Green Bay.

It goes on, Sir, different organization• and then,of courae, we have the petition itself,signed by individual residents, 1.800 in all, aking,indeed demanding that something be done about thia road. Nov when I firat received thi  petition, well maybe about the same time I received this petition, ve got ome indication a• to what Ottawa was prepared to do about the road, and announcement put i.348 ·

May 1, 1973 Tape No. 1337 NM - 4 MR. WM. ROWE: jointly by the Minister of Industrial Development,! believe, and Mr.

Jamieson,to the effect.that of the $10 million being cut out for road construction in the province by DREE under this new amendment to the highways agreement, $1 million was going to be spent on the reconstruction of the La Scie Road and, of coura_e, that is a great shot in the arm to the people who have been trying to get something done an the road. $1 million unfortunately will reconstruct perhaps ten to twelve miles of the thirty-five mile section, so it gives the honourable members of the House some indication as to how much money vj.ll be needed.

Several million dollars will be needed to reconstruct and pave that road. But I do believe, Sir, that it will be money well spent. It was my intention when I had the honour to be Minister of Community and Social Development, to try to get the La Scie Road considered as a part of the sort of apinal ayatem, the Bay Verte Road and then the IA Scie Road on to La Scie. In other words, DREE would carry on as they had done with the Baie Verte Road, carry on with money,to get the La Scie Road done u well and consider it to be the one trunk system. I am glad to see that apparently the minister concerned now and Mr.

Jamieson in Ottawa are carrying on with that kind of a concept and it will not be too many more years, perhaps three or four, when we can see that road completly upgraded, reconstructed and paved. I am delighted, Sir, to be able to support this very well thought out, very well constructed and organized petition and I ask Sir, that it be tabled in this honourable House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Green Bay. Mil. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I want to support the petition presented by the honourable member for White Bay South.

I am quite familiar with this -road, as a matter of fact in 1961, the year this road was constructed by a firm in Comer Brook,and it was at that time that &349

May 1, 1973 Tape No. 1337 l'IM - 5 MR. PECKFORD: I resided in White Bay South and I remember going over the ten miles of road as far as Harbour Round or Brent'• Cove a little bit farther on on my way to doing business with the government at that time and having to walk many times.

The tmfortunate thing about the thirty-five mile stret _ch of road.as I see it, was that in its construction I think if anybody has travelled over the road,the first about five to ten miles froa the Baie Verte branch down is a fairly good road and it is not that bad but then after that, after you get about halfway down, the last fifteen to twenty miles that is really a treacherous piece of road at the the beat of times, even in August or July. I remember this pi,.st winter . and the winter before travelling over that road in some dangerous, trying times.

There are a couple of sections of the road that in the spring the flooding is severe and you have nothing only a real ice rink on a very poorly graded slope and it is extremely treacherous and extremely dangerous, I was rather interested to hear the honourable member for White Bay South indicate the number of busin,saes and other associations who were in support of this petition. He mentioned the P.C. Association of White Bay South, but either forgot or lost or I cannot really imagine did not mention or did not have the support rather of the Liberal Association of White Bay South, Mil~ ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR.

PEC~FORD: Oh I •ee, the democratic proceH as it used to exiat in the Liberal Party in 1968 and 1969 baa now become defunct, Mr. Speaker, no longer exist. lhe district association in the Liberal Party is now conceived to be the member for that district, That is very fascinating, very intere ting. M far a• the petition goes, Mr. Speaker, I fully support it as the member for Green Bay,because there are a number of communities in -, di•trict that use.that road, namely Shoe Cove, Tilt Cove, Round Harbour, and ·snooks Arm and Nippers Harbour and it has been a constant source of u35o

May 1, 1973 Tape No. 1337 NM - 6 MR. PECKFORD: pressure from these communities. About every week I get two or three letters concerning the road and asking what is going to be done or when is it going to be done or complaining about the condition of it. Especially this winter with all the snow and so on, road transportation in the area was curtailed to a large extent,more so than any other winter in the last ten or fifteen, I am pleased, as the member for White Bay South mentioned, that under the special highways agreement, DREE agreement. there will be $1 million spent on the road.

We should suggest to the Department of Highways, I do not know how the honourable member for White Bay South feels about it, I would like to say here in the House ve should suggest that the money that is to be spent be spent on the La Scie end of the highway. At least that would be my feeling on it because it is the worst

section of road and I think that if we got that money spent on that section, it would allieviate a lot of the problems that now exist there from La Scie up to the Brent's Cove or Harbour Round turn-off or so on. I fully upport it, Kr. Speaker, and I am glad to aee that $1 million is already going to be spent on it. MR.. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? MR.. WM. ROWE: I hesitate to rise to present another petition but as it is conceivable that this may be the last sitting for some time, I would like to present this petition as well.

This is a petition, Sir, from the Community of Westport,again in the District of White Bay South. ... The prayer of the petition is that the road from Westport to the Baie Verte Highway be upgraded and that aaoey be provided so that a start can be made on this project during the 1973 construction season. The petition goes on to say that ninety per cent or more of our working people must use this road either daily or weekly, to and from ·. their place of employment. Many people have been subjected to many hardships due to the c~ndition of our present road. This road is the u351

May 1, 1973 Tape No. 1337 NM - 7 MR. WM. R~W!_: ·lifeline of our collllllimity and the only connection for example with the hoapital at Baie Verte as well u the outside world. It ia very important to the welfare of thi• co1111unity that this road be upgraded as oon as possible. This petition ia signed by about two hundred of the adult residents of the Community of Westport and Purbeclt Cove I believe. this petition as well.

Sir, I take great pleasure in supporting The difficulty with this particular piece of road is that it is over twenty miles long and it does not serve a great number of people: that is the p_roblem. If you are talking to officials say in Highways or any other planner  or bureaucratic, types,they are likely to say: "Well there areonly several hundred people involved, three or four hU:f1dred people involved,and to spend massive sums of money upgrading this road over very rugged terrain would not be a wise expenditure of money.'' I suppose that is one way of looking at it. Mr.

Speaker, from my own point of view, as the member for the district, I would like to see a more humane,! suppose, approach taken to the problem. Perhaps every dollar spent on the road might not be warranted,if you look at the general average acroaa Canada or aero•• Newfoundland. but when you think that this is a COIIIIIIUDity of people - faailies, children, men and women going back and forth to work, to hopital, to school. I believe they are going to be buasing some children out to school ncnr, in the high school -area,which is a very long period to be in a buss over a very bad ·road.

I would certainly suggest to the honourable Minister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, that greater consideration be given to spending more money than might be warranted on a purely per capita basis on this particular road. It i• unfortunate that it is so long and over such rugged terrain. People have chosen to ettle there. They have been there for score• of year , for vll over ona hundred year• I believe.and I think it ia time that perhapa aoMthinR va done to brin1 thi  Toad up to a mor acceptable II tandud. c; 3 5 2

May 1, 1973 Tape No. 1337 NM - 8 MR. WM. ROWE: About ten or twelve years ago it was more or less pushed through by a bulldozer and some efforts have been made since to keep it up to some kind of a decent standard,but I say quite frankly that the Department of Highways has not made an all-out effort on this particular road.perhaps for good reasons of their own, I do recommend or suggest to the Minister of Highways or Transportation that,perhaps as a result of his own good office, more effort, more money might be spent on bringing this road up to an acceptable standard.

I support the petition, Sir, and I ask that it be tabled in the Bouse and referred to the department to which it relates. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a copy of the report of Professor Sinclair in connection with the conflict of interest legislation. It has to be rel!IPmb~~ed, Mr. Speaker, this is n~t a royal commission report. He was simply asked to draft a suggested bill and look at the literature in connection with it.

I have Riven a copy to the Leader of the Opposition and this ia another copy of it to table in the House. There is nothing in it of any consequence. NO'IICE OF MOTION: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the House to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, D4111ely the explosive strike situation at Buchans. Mil. CROSBIE: It is out of order, Mr. Speaker. We have not reached Orders of the Day yet and this is the wrong place for such a motion. MR. ROBERTS: On a Point of Order, Mr.

Speaker, Standing Order 23 A says, "And before the Orders of the Day are entered upon." KR.. SP£AKER: Order 23 A says and I quote, "Leave to make a motion for the adjournment of the House will be for the purpose of discussing a definite · matter of urgent public importance but to be asked after the daily routine of business has been considered and b~fore the 0Tders of i;353

,. ' . May 1, 1973 Tape No. 1337 RM - 9 MR. SPEAKER: the Day have been entered upon." So I submit that this 1• perhaps the wrong point to make such a motion, but I shall entertain the motion immediately preceeding Orders of the Day. NOTICE OF QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CROSBIE:- ! would like to table the answers to question number 254 on the Order Paper of April 16 asked by the Leader of the Opposition and the ansver to question 220 on the Order Paper of April 4, asked by the honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the third time should be lucky. I ask leave of the Bouse to make a motion for the adjournment of the Bouse for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely the exploaive strike situation at Buchana, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member of course,as the House ia well avare, 1l8de a illlilar motion lut evening ~d indicated at that tiae that he may do it again today.

The Chair has been thinking about this during the evening and thia 1110rning and while the Chair is aware and feels that the matter at Buchana :la an important matter and a very ;erioua aituation, l feel that it doea not warrant the suspen•ion of the ordinary buaineH of the Bou•• to discuss the situation in Buchana at this time. On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The s.'..nmary Juri d1ction Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time presently,by leave. ... On motion a Bill,

An Act To Amend The Newfoundland and Labrador Rousing Corporation Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time preaently,by leave. On motion a Bill, "An Act To Govern Collective Bargaining Respecting Certain Employees In The Public Service In The Province," read a first time, ordered read a second time presently,by leave. Motion second reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act." 0354

May 1, 1973 Tape No. 1337 NM - 10 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, this is a veey minor amendment that is necessitated by the agree111ent that has ·been entered into between the Government of Canada and the GoverDJQent of Newfo\lndland. Under the principal act there is excluded from the right for an order for compensation, any claimS wher~ injury or death of a person in respect of which compensation is claimed resulted from

an act or ommission of a member of the first family living with him. '?bat bu been deleted from the •sreement and 0355 ..

May 1. 1973 Tape 1338 IB-1 this bill will have the effect of deleting it from the principal act. I move second reading. On motion a bill. "An Act Further To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act," read a second time. ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House. presently, hy leave. Motion second reading of a bill. "An Act Further To Amend The Expropriation Act." HON. H.R.V. EARLE: (MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND SERVICES): Mr. Speaker. this is not a particularly important bill. It is merely an amendment to correct some enacted references in a

chapter of the Revised Statutes of Newfoundland. This is the purpose of the amendment. I therefore move second reading. MR. E. ROBERTS: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker. swayed by the eloquent and forceful appeal of the gentleman from Fortune Bay. we will go along with it. On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Expropriation Act," read a second time, referred to a Committee of the Whole House, -· ·- ··-···-· ·-·-,•· . presently, by leave. ' t:12..'12!l,•econd reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend Th• Registration Of Partnerships Act, 1972." HON. T.A, HICKMAN: (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): .Mr. Speaker, this is a routine bill to delete

section 16 and replace it by another aection 16 for the purpose of clarification. This was asked by the law society of Newfoundland because there was some trouble interpreting the previous section, I move second reading. On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Registration of Partnerships ... Act, 1972, read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, presently, by leave. Hotion,second reading of a bill. "An Act Respecting The Application Of A Certain Provision Of The Crown Lands"(Mines and Quarries) Act." MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, this bill was brought before the House upon the advice of the law officers of the crown. A notice had been served with respect to exploration rights - that is not the word - 6356

May 1, 1973 Tape ·1338 IB-2 and the date in the notice should have been I think it was sixty clear days and it was fifty-nine. This bill is to legitimize the notice. On motion a bill, •An Act Respecting The Application Of A Certain Provision Of The Crown Lands (Mines And Quarries) Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Co~ittee of the Whole House, presently. r.y le~ve. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm and Adopt An Agreement Made Betwee~ the Government And Kennco Explorations (Canada) Limited." MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to the honourable Minister of ?Unes and Energy this bill is similiar to many dozens of bills passed by this legislation in the last twenty years, ratifyiny an agreement between the Government of Newfoundland and Kennco Explorations (Canada) Limited to carry out exclusiiwe mineral exploration in an area like Harp Lake, Labrador,subject to the ter-...i; a..d conditions set fc:.th in the agreeme,1t.

Under the agreement the area,if rese:nred for a period of four years, Kennco is obligated to spend $250,000 of which not less than $50,000 will be spent during the first and second twelve months and $75,000 during the third and forth twelve month period. Should Kennco apply for a lease, mining lease of any of the area within the exploration reservation, it will be granted under the provisions of the Crown Lands (Mines and Quarries) Act. One of the conditions of the lease will be a requirement that the leasee will have to c01n111ence mining operations within two years from the date of the issue of the lease.

I move second reading. HR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House we have nothing against this legislation. We support it. There are a couple of questions I w~uld like to ask. I was _wonde-ring what exactly was the intent of the company, What mineral are they after in this area? I believe the minister mentioned the area of Cartwright. MR. HICKMAN: Harp Lake.

May l, 1973 Tape 1338 MR. THOMS: Harp Lake. Oh, I am sorryJ This is up near the Snegamook Lake area,right North of Goose Bay. I wonder what kind of mineral they are interested in in that area. MR. HICKMAN: Copper. MR. W. ROWE: ls this an extension of an agreement that was in existence before between the government and this company? Does anybody know? MR. HICKMAN: In my understanding, it is a new agreement. MR. W. ROWE: Yes, well this is what I would like to get some information on and an explanation from the government. Mr.

Speaker, I understood that this govemmentwere going to bring in a new policy with respect to the proapec'ting for, the exploration for minerals in this province. Now, perhaps we might hear from the Minister of Industrial Development on it. We had ~he Minister of Mines and Energy s~and up in the Bouse on two occasions and say, "Well, this is merel7 an extension of agreements which had been in effect befor~. The companies have a vested interest already. We ax-e doing them IB-3 a favour.

We are going to carry on with it and thc.y are going to continue their exploration." If my memory serves me correctly, I got the firni impreasion,agaiq from the Minister of Mines aud Energy, that the gove~t policy was changing although it had not solidified, had not been firmed up at that particular time; fte would soon see evidences of a new policy orientated by the government with regard to exploration for minerals and prospecting generally.

Now, the Minister of Justice got up and either knowingly or unknowingly~ I do not know because l do not pretend to be an expert in the field, said that this is an agreement like any other agreement that has been entere~ into for the put twenty years. Now, what I would like to ask the government is,do . they in fact have a new policy? Is this agreement, this act and this agreement like the other acts which ~•ere in existence 6358

May l, 1973 Tape 1338 IB-4 for the past twenty years or so? If so, does the govem1,ent intend to change their policy over the next several months as to exploration and prospecting as they have said on numerous occasions? Also other information from the minister, particularly the Minister of Industrial Development,who was Minister of Mines and Resources for some months and I believe did a very good job while he was at it. I would like some answers to these questf ,ons, Mr. Speaker.

What is the government policy on exploration and giving concessions to companies who want to come into the provincel As our colleague,the member for Bonavista North,has already sai~,we have nothing against this. We think that this is one valid. _very good way of getting exploration for minerals done in this.province.

It is not the only way nor should it be the only way but it is one good way of doing it, bringing in good, reputable companies , local companies or companies from elsewhere,to explcre fc~ minerals and hopefully find ~inerals and provide the jobs and the economic benefits, etc. that come_ from such activity. So, we have nothing against it but I would like to hear some statement of policy from the government at this time. They have had nearly a year-and-a-half now to make some kind of a policy position,to firm up their poli~y position on it.

Perhaps the Minister of Industrial Development might have a word to say on that aspect of it. Mr. Speaker, Ma, NEARY: Could we get a quorum in the House? Sir, could we have the clerk count the House? HR. SPEAKER: Would the clerk _ please count the House? There is a quorum present. HON, W, DOODY: (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): Mr. Speaker, this agreement between Kennco and the government was begun during the last ten yeara,in the Forestry, Mines and Agriculture Reaources Department as it was then. The questions that the member from White Bay South asks are reasonable questions. This 0359 ...

May 1, 1973 Tape 1338 IB-5 is the same type of agreement,with a few exceptions,as was the . policy of the previous administration,with the exception of a grid square system of administration rather than the squarely drawn lines on the map,which was the old system. When Kennco came in down stairs,last year,with the intention of going to Harp Lake to do some investigation, it was felt at that time that it would be in the best interests of the province not to wait for the development of the recommendations of the minerals task force but to work out an arrangement with them, the result of which you see here.

The Government of Newfoundland is indeed approaching a rationalization of a mining exploration programme and the recent reorganization of the government reflects that. The grid square system will be going into effect,in which a certaiv specified nUlllber of grid squares or halfs or quarters of grid squares can be allocated to a mining concession,rather thmi was the system in the past. The mineral i~ventcry, a9 I understand it, will play a very important

part in this because once the potential is roughly known in any given area,it can then be, these rentals or fees charged an exp~oration company can be graduated in descending scale of from one to seven or one to eight so that those most promising areas will demand a greater return to government for the privilege of exploring. Those with the least promising areas of course will get more favourable conditions. The condition  under which exploration  can be encouraged on the i land part of the province are somewhat different than tho•• in Labrador.

It is quite obviously more accesible and uch more easy to explore and much more easy to work. So, in Labrador a somewhat different system is peing developed,with some less stringent demands on mining companies as far as exploration is concerned. It is obviously a lot easier to go into the Buchana Plateau to do some work than it is to 0360 ...

May 1, 1973 Tape f338 go into Harp Lake, It costs a great deal more tt work there. a season is shorter and conditions are a lot more stringent. IB-6 We have also brought in now,for the first time in the province, a modified claim-staking system which has never been here before to any great extent. There were various small sections of land which were available for prospectors licensing but there was never any claim-staking to any degree. There are now crown reserves set aside for claim-staking and this is going to be tried on an exploratory basis.

If it proves feasible ard workable in the province, then it will be seen more often. The member for White Bay South is correct in saying that thi is an extension of the policy of the Liberal Government and it does not really show the work that has been done on a formulation of a new policy in the Mines Department or Division. MR.

HICKMAJ.~: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development has answered the questions to the satisfaction of the honourable mei::ber.c - On motion a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Made Between The Government And Kennco Explorations (Canada) Limited," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, presently, by leave. _Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt On The Part Of The Province An Agreement Hade Between The Government Of Canada And The Government Of The Province of Newfoundland And To Provide For Certain Matters Relating Thereto. 11 MR.

DOODY: Hr. Speaker, this bill refers to the agreement between the Government of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada with respect to the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, although one would never suspect it from the title of the bill. The Net:foundland and Labrador Development Corporation itself, of course,was deb~ted at some length during the estimates,but I can run through some of the details for the sake of the House. You will note that the objectives of the Development Corporation are to provide industrial intelli~ence in management advisory services,

May 1, 1973 Tape 1338 IB-7 project information, loap financing for the establishment, expansion and modernization of their operations. These funds are provided by the Government of Canada, equity financing which was provided by the Government of Newfoundland and related services and assistance. The head office is jn Newfoundland. The share capital is divided up so that the province has a majority of the shares. The Board of Directors is appointed by the province and the Government of Canada with no less than five or more than ten.

The Province of Newfoundland should always have one more director than the Government of Canada. The loan capital,as I said, will be provided by the Government of Canada,and that will amount to no more than $20 million at any given time. It says _h.ere in subsection (4) of section (10) that the loans can be made to any business enterprise to which any loan is cleer,erl advisable but could not obtain adequate financ~ng from any other source. This clause is a clause that is somewhat restrictive depending upon the

interpretation of the directors and it is a clause that the corporation had some difficulty ·in dealing with. However, I understand that they are pretty well satisfied themselves on this score now and they have had a meeting, their first directors meeting,to formally approve or reject a se.,.ries of applications,on Friday past. I am very pleased to say that the thing worked out quite well. They indeed manage at long last to get some of their loan applications approved. So I guess that could make them formally and offically in busine~s.

I do not know exactly how many they did get through but · I know, at long last, they are on the road. There is a clause there about the interest rates. It ••Y•, "No loan with a corporation should carry interest at the rate less than the rate at the time determined by the Minister of Finance of Canada in respect of advances of fundF provided by the Department of Finance to crown corporations plus a minimum of one per cent, the equity capital," The ratio of loan·is three 6362 ...

~ay 1, 1973 Tape 1338 IB-8 to one. The corporation is allowed to lend three dollars for every dollar of equity so that the Government of Newfoundland will have to in many cases provide,out of its $2 million,sufficent equity to an applicant to bring him up to a level whereby he can take advantage of the loan fund that the Government of Canada has put in there. The dar.ger is that our $2 million will become exhausted very quickly under the circumstances. We had hoped to get a more favourable ratio established.

The Government of Canada feel that it would be far better to try it on this system first and we can review it in a couple of months time and see if it is working this way. If not, they say they would be only too happy to sit down and try to revise the ratio of equity to loans. The limit of any one loan is $1 million. The thing ¢an be reviewed after six months but it must be reviewed after five years. Reports to the two ministeninvolved - I do not see anv provision in this act for reporting to the Houae on the operations of the corporation. It may very well be there but I cannot find it. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, that is the sum and substance of the particular bill. I move second reading. MR. W. ROWE: There is no need, Sir, to delay discussion on this bill at all. As the minister has said, it has been discussed at length both inside and outside the House. It was something which was initiated by the Smallwood Administration and Mr. Nolan was the Minister of Economic Development at that time. Be took ·the bull by the horns. I think where we left off was we were at the eighteenth draft agreement or something. MR. DOODY: That is right and it went into another fifteen or something.

Terribly important things had to be done,like whether it was going to be signed or not. MR. W. ROWE: That is right. An incredible amount of red tape, trying to get this type of thing done - finally,after I suppose two-and-a-half years from the time the thing was started till the time it is finally functional and operational. So, I do (i363

May 1, 1973 Tape 1338 not think there is any need to go into the principle of the corporation itself too much. There are one or two questions IB-9 I would like to ask the minister. He may not be able to supply the information now because there has not been any kind of a working track record built up.

The industrial intelligence which was mentioned, now it was our intention at the time - I was on the periphery of the thing - I believe it was our intention that the corporation would have either on staff or by some kind of an agreement or arrangement with •uccessful businessmen around the province that these staff members or busines~men,who would more or less do it on a voluntary basis. could Rive the benefit of this advice to persons going into business for the first time or people who had a good idea, had some equity and perhaps were a little bit dubious as to forms and procedures.

They could get some assistance from people who were in the know on that kind of work. Could the minister,when he is summing up, give some ideas as to what kind of industrial intelligence is conte!°Plated by the corporation both in aubstance and form, namely how they intend to do it from a fore1110st point of view and from a substantive point of view, what kind of intelligence is envisaged that this corporation will be supplying to industrial ~evelopment. The minister has already answered a question which I had meant to ask, namely: Had any loans been made to date!

He does not know how many but I think it is important that if there is nothing in this bill - I do not think there is - I think it is important that the minister give an undertaking to the House at this time that any report of the corporation to the minister be in fact tabled in the House in the usual way,within fifteen days after the le~islature convenes. This is done by all other crown corporations~! believe, the Power Commission, 'the Housing Corporation and this type of thing. These types 0364

~ay 1, 1973 Tape 1338 IB-10 of corporations are ohliged le~ally to see that their minister tables a copy of their annual renort. Of course, ~ is A very important document,to see how the thing is opcratin~,particularly something which is so potentiallv volatile as this, it would be nice to have the House exercise some kind of moral authority over the operations of it. Also, Mr. Sneaker, if the minister can,he might give us some indication as to what criteria have now been ironed out by the corporation for the making of loans.

He has mentioned that the act and the agreement attached thereto require that apparently other sources of revenue or financing be exhausted before the corporation gets into the picture. Perhap~ he might indicate whether the corporation meanF to take that literally, whether a person has to go through three or four commercial banks, the Industrial Development Corporation, IAC,for example, lending institut _ions of that type,before he can finally approach with any hope of success the Development Corporation or whether this is going to be treated fairly flexibly by the corporation: give us some idea as to that.

Also, the types of operations which the the Development Corporation is likely to be getting into. Where has the corporation now - if the minister knows - where has it now drawn the line? He talked on the debate during estimates about whether gas stations are going to get loans, whether service industries are going to get loans, what types of iodustrus generally are likely to be able to be acceptable for assistance from this corporation. Also, Sir, the minister has mentioned that there has to be a three-to-one ratio of equ_ity and loan.

In other words, the federal government I would imagine are the stickler on this• that there has to be twenty-five.per cent equity in a particular business before the corpcration can make the seventy-five per cent loan secured,obviously,by mortgages and whatever securities u365

May 1, 1973 Tape 1338 IB-11 there might- be. Would the· minister indicate to the House whether the corporation or the government directing the corporation on a general broad hasis have given them any instructions as to what equity ratio there is ~oin~ to be.

For example, unless there are some pretty good ruidelines, I can foresee the province putting up twenty-five per cent of the equity and the Government of Canada putting up seventy-five per cent of the financing, the loan that will be made to the industry, the man who presumably owns and operates it is not on the hook for anything, I do not foresee that this is going to happen.

I would assume that the government and the corporation are going to make sure that the person who is looking for assistance has also some capital at risk, Could the minister give us any idea as to any guidelines which might have been laid down?. For example, has the corporation suggested to applicantE to date that at least one half of the equity required under the act will be supplied by the owner and operator himself?

In other wards, tlu:!re might be tw1:elve and a-half per cent equ.ity as a minimum put in by the owner and operator, twelve and a-half by the Government of Newfoundland and seventy-five per cent of ¢e loan capital would be supplied by the corporation from Ottawa funds. Has there been any kind of a 'ratio set down by the cor,,orationi' I think, Sir, that just about takes care of an~ questions we have to ask over here: The thing has been gone through fairly thoroughly, There is no need to get into a harangue on ph~losophical matters as to what should be done or what should not be done.

I believe this bill is a reasonable one. The only outstanding questions that there are relate , really to how the thing is going to be run and operated. What guidelines have the government set for the corporation? What criteria will the corporation be us~ng for the making·and advancing of e~uity canital and loan capital? That is the type of general and operational information, That is all we would 1:1.ke to know at this stage, ~r. Speaker. ~. DOODY: To dat• the criteria or standards that are bein~ used i.366

May 1, 1973 Tape 1338 by the corporation is that those industriPs that applv for aid or those husinesses that apoly for aid will he treated 1B-lL each on its own merit~. The ratio has not heen firmly established as,rep,ards the amount of equity that an applicant must hnve. It is left pretty flexible right now and I think it should be that vay for a few months and maybe for a year to see how the thing developes. There are obvious merits to one particular industry in which the government or the cornoration might feel it would be happier to put more money at risk than it would in some other operation.

I would say that there are three or four sawmills right now in the province that need help, good sawmills that should have good operations and because of lack of working capital and lack of modernization and equipment and lAck of management skills they are,for one o~ all of these reasons,in trouble. It would be a shame to close down an operation such as this which has a potential for employment and for the economic benefit of the province or of a narticular region oft.he prov{~ce simply because a hard and fast rule has been made by the various governments involved in this.

So, for this reason, we have left it flexible. The three-to-one ratio of equity to capital or equity to loan,which we mentioned earlier,was arrived at after some tremendous bargaining with Ottawa. The Department of Finance up there felt that two-to-one was E. tremendous effort and I must say the people in the Department of Regional, Economic Expanison, had to do c~nsiderable bucking on our behalf to get a ratio of three-to-one.

It comes back to the same old story, if a man has $20,000 and he is looking for a substantial amount of money or five times that much money to get a business started, a good business, something that appears to be good and ~as reasonable prospects for success, the government of Newfoundland has to take out of its $2 million contribution sufficent capital to bring the equity up. It is the same story with many of these DREE arranRements or DREE promises that have been made in the past. 6367

May 1, 1973 Tape 1338 Ottawa makes the grAnd promiseR and puts up the big si~n but the Government of Newfoundland have to put in the risk capital. If the thinp, is successful after thirty days, then - MR, POBERTS: Inaudible, MR, DOODY: That is a speech that I prepared for the ·Reverend Booth Reid to recite in Ottawa. He did it very well. He is goinp: to burn the sign up there,he said, First time he has ever had decent treatment from a government is when he came down to talk to the Tories. He is absolutely amazed that he was out in the dark for so long. He has aeen the light, he said,and he is a reformed man.

IB..l.13 With regard to the various other sources of financing that might be available for an applicant, once again the corporationP as I understand it,has no int~ntion of forcing him to go to see every finance company on Water Street to try to raise an extra ten or fifteen dollars. On the other hAnd,they are not in the business of competing with the chartered banks. If it appears that this gentl~man is reasonably well financed and can appraoch a chartered bank and get a loan, then that is where he will be sent.

If it appears that the situation which he finds hi111Self in will not make credit or cash readily available f_or him from the banks,then this corooration is there to fill that void. The intelligence programme,which is part of the bill, is one that is going to create some problems in so far as finding the necessary management guidance and expertise. That is one of the big missing links in the chain here in the province.

I understand from Frank Spencer that they have been doing some recruiting or trying to find as many people as they can who mi~ht be interested in spe~ding a little time workin~ on a uarticular project, retired businessmen who might be willing to give some of their time, ThiJ is bein~ tried. I think that what will prohably hap~en is they will hAve a core of industrial analysts, two or three on staff down there ,with a list of people '-tl\orn • ~368

''ay 1. 1.071 Tare> 111~ (momfnr) rv. - 1 they can cill l on. and they will also tab• advantnrc>, hopefully, of this case prof'ral!T'C' Phi ch trc> l'lC'partMent of Industry Trad£'. anrl C:omroerce have up th<"re and where thl"y will loan soMe c>xpert advice or it is sunposC' to he c>xpert advice to various industries. Once> arain this is in the forr:,ation stare. lt r<'ally has not r.onc> far cnoul!h to p:lve> a rc>port on it. However, 1 will he only too happy to .. do so when t'fiis thinp pets IT!ore sc>ttled.

The rE"source based industries are pettinp, the prpfe>rc>ntial treatMP.nt as far as examination and evaluation of the applications are concerned. The need for tourist facilities is vc>ry obvious and they arc pickinp, these thin~s out and sturlyinp thc>n very carefully. ~he applications for people who are interested in expandinp, their ~rocery stores or settinp, up truc~inp coMpanies and so on are not very hiph on the list of prioritic>s ripht now.

The rewfoundland and Lahrador Developm<"nt Corporation feel there are more meaningful ways in which they can make a contribution to the econo!T!y of the province. ~,,at abouL construction coMpanies? !'R .• D00DY: Construction companies are not involved with this, unless somebody can denonstrate to them a definite need in a definite area where there is a gao to be filled. I do not think they are very interested in helping onP company compete with another company in a riven area. That is not what they were established for. _ I think that is about all of the questions that were asked.

I mentioned the fact that 1 felt it would he advisable to tahle the report in the llousc>, lf I am still in that particular portfolio, I shall certainly see that 1t is nonC'. As J said, J do not see it·in the bilJ herP hut it should he done. llave I !'l:fssed somethinr'? PP. • P. ~• . J?()t,'f. : Before the 1?1inister sits down, Hr. Speaker, could he confirr.i or dc>ny a report that perhaps the rresirlcnt of the corporation ~aybe very soon his collea~ue in the Ministry of Fisheries, as reportPd hy one of the radio stations in the last day or so?

In other words, has thE" t:1inister bePn slir.htt>d apain hy his i.369

Tape 1339 (nominr) Prc>l!!ier? 'flecause C!VC'r:irbody thinl~s that he should be ~inistt!r of Fi!!hc>ries, ~~r, Spt!a!~er. }IR, DOODY: Includinr, me. PK - 2 ~~. r.nwF. . P. ~•. Has the ninister been sliP,hted by the Pr~ier again? '-'R, D!'ODY'. F.very day. F.very day he slights me. "AN H<'N, ''F.''RER • Inaudible. 'MR. DOODY: The }1inister of Finance dnd the ~inister of Justice and I are havinp. a competition now to see which one of us is more fishy.

I really have no idea whether or not the PreMier or anybody else is considering the maneger or the chief executive officer for the position of }'inieter of Fisheries. I would suggest that maybe you could ask the Premier. AN HON, ~E'R: Inaudible •. ~F. DOODY: But the Deputy Premier, Sir, maybe he can help you. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I think he has earned son.ething over $50,~QO :1 :,•ear. On motion bill, read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the Whole House presently, by !eave. lofR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I noticed that the Member of Parliament for St. John's F.ast, Mr.

Jim McGrath, is in the gallery ~t the back. I would like,on behalf of all honourable ml!!l'lbers,to welcome him here at this time, Motion, second read in,- of a bill, "An Act To .At,iend The P.ospitals Act, 1971. ,. HON. DP. A. T. M~rF.: (nINISTER OF HF..ALTH): Mr. Speaker, this is a le"al.hrief amendml"nt to this act,which in effect enables individuals who feel that they have actionable cases to take against hospitals or employees of hospitals for damages or injuries caused by negligence, ~t gives these people extra time in which to bring their specific case to ler,al action.

It just repeals and replaces that particular sect{on of the act. It waR brought ahout ~Y finding after the act nad been proclaiMed that there were onl" or two serious cases which 0370 .

''av 1, 1073 Tapc> 1330 (morninr) f.f the act had rc>rai .nc>d 1n its !'rc>sc>nt pc>riod ,:,•oul rl havf' rlc>harred tl1l"se c;isr>s from hc>inr, takC'n into ti,c> lf'fal 011rstion, and for this reason the a~c>ndmrnt is Jrpally rc>quc>stc>d. '•P • pr,p,rpy~ · "r. ~:-,c>aJ,rr, wc> . of cour!':r will support th(' amrnd'"c>nt, thc> prtnc:in]c> of lfrit:ition of nctfon which the honourahle r.ent]c>T11an t f!UC'SR Jr.nOH'3 1R a lc>~al nr1nc1.p]c>.

It is n sound one and it is found throu7hout the law hut it should not be allowed to interfere with justicr. !here ohvious]y has to he a limit, a tilT'C' in which a person can inRtitute an action, that linit should hi' one which is reasonably and sufficiently lonp, to enah.lC' a person to act. As I understand fror the IT'inister and from readinr the bill,there are sore cases ,.,here people wen• caught in what 11.r.iounted to transitional provisior.s. '!'his is not a chanf'C' in thP su!lstantive law as such, tht- noI'T'1al lai-•,as is stated in

section (37 .

a) which is,as I recall it, the ori~inal section. The new one is

section (h} ,. ~•hich is the transitional one, and of cours(',wc> sunport -ft. Mr. ~peaker, there is only one other quc>stion that T would ask of the JT1inister . and althou~h it is not strictly relevant. perhaps it is allowen. I wondE'r ,:,.•hen the regulations under the Pospital Act will he . proclaimed? I know they are heinP- worked on, After all, the act itself is a substantial piece of lerislation. It ~s the hasic operating charter for our hospitals in the province now. It is a p;ood piece of le~islation but it will not recor.ie truly effective until the rep,ulations are broupht in.

Perhaps in closing the dehate the ministE'r could rive ue sor,e indication of 1-,hcrc- the rP~ulations are. Also, could he assure us, T have no dourt th.is is the case, but could he assure UR._ that the various hospi ta] s throu~hout the> province, thr hoarrls and thr., authorities arc heinp, consulted as are representatives of e~pJoyee ~roups. Eut suhject only to thosP quc>stions, Sir, the bill is a minor one hut it can he very rajor to the p('oplc> concerned and we think it is a Pood step,so we will sunport it. If the rnnourahle lT'inister spe.il·s nm,• hc> closes the debate. u371

Hay 1 l'l73 Tape 1J3'-t (T!'OntiM) PK - 4 nr.:. A. T, R'1l'F: Thi' fact that the- rrr,tilations have he-en delayed ill clue:' entirely to the fact of the de:ocratic process. ~:e are negotiatin1 and ohtaininp, opinions and aclvice , Erllowinp: study, from so many orf'(anization.R involvec :!n health. and this has been the reason for the delay. I woulcl hope that thC' rer,ulations alon11, with the !l!Cntal health one will be obtained within the next few months. I ,.,ould hQ1'e that we will clarify them and clean them up by then. ~'11.

SFF.AKF.1?. · Is it the pleasure of the P.ouse that the said bill he now reacl a second time? On motion bill, read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole Pouse presently, by leave, Motion, seconcl readinp, of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Farm Development Loan Act." HON. F., MAYY.tA~D ('·!INISTF.P OF ACP.TCULTURF. AND FORF.STS): Mr.

Speaker, this bill merely amends the original bill to elimi~ate the wording "while the interest on farm loans has skipped to a minimum of five per cent:• This is done basically because sometir,e in the future although ~ot at the present time we hope to even out the interest charged on various government loans - various loan agencies, different standards of interest and uhatnot. At the present time we are doing a study on this. We have no J.ntentions of increasin~ the interests at the present time, and if and when we dicl, there would be substantial notice given of it but it does eliminate that provision.

That is a~out all, I move second reading, 1-~. P. S. TP(')~1S: ~'r. Speaker, I believe the minister's intention of helpinp the farmers up to now has been a ~ood one. ~emovinp: the ceilin~ on the interest to the farmers to borrow noney from the Farm Development Loan Board I believe is a bad one. In the legislation now in existence the maximum interest that can be placed on these loans is five rer cent. ''r. Speaker, up until last fall someti~e it wgs three and a-half,per cent,which was placed their by thC' previous Smalhmod Administration.

At that time the administration did nat Ree fit qnd did not helieve that an interest of five i;372

!'ay 1, 1°73 Tape 133° (rnornin~) PK - 5 pC'r CC'n~ should be levic><l on thC"se loc1n<;. .f.11t shortly aftt?r the Tory Adl"-..nistration car.e into office,they pushed th€' nrr cent on th<> loans to a !"axinurn. ''.ow, ''r. Sncah:>r. f anninr in ~'.cwf ound l:incl i.s a nc>P vocation. '·'e have very feP farners in :'.ewfoundland. 1-ie have very feP real farr .ers in ~Tet-1 foundland. If wc- arc roinr to cncourar,e in the faminr industry younP, l!len,1-,e nust f!ivc:- them some incentive and we !T'llSt also supply d1C'rn ,,1th rnonc>y at a very reasonable rate.

ThE' previous ad~inistration s.:rw fit to place on these loans a three and a-half r,er cent interest. whi.ch t-•as horrowinp, money at a very reasonahle rate. t:ow by ta'kinp off the ceilinp, from fi VE' per cC'n t, j t opens up theAe loAns to abuse by any adrnin1stration or by any loan hoard or corporation. It means that anyont' - if the f!inister of Finance fC"C'lfl that it is necessary to push these loans up to nine or nine and a-half or ten per cent,thc>n it shall he done. It can be done very easily.

You need not co!l'e to this House to. look for pendssion to do so because nassinr this act p.ivrs hi~ th~t perniissi~n. •fr. ·speal~er, like I have said, if we ar<> to. encoura,r,e people t:o the faminr industry, we must supply theM with loans at reasonable rates. If this ceiling is taken off, and the only reason for it. beinP. taken off is to raise the rates above five per cent, once this lerislation P,oes throup,h I am quite sure the_.i,ates will ~o over five ~l'r cent. If such a thinp: happens, ''r. ~pcaker, t:he whole purpose of the ~•e1-~foundland Farm Developrnent Loan Board will be lost.

There ·will be no neL'd of it. you can ~o to the bank, you can p.o to the industrial hank and you can p,et loans at eir,ht, nine, ten per cent. So if this ccilinr. is ta1':en off then we lose the whole purpqse of the Newfounclland FarM nevelopment Loan Board. ~!r. Spea1'.er. I ask the minister to wi thdrm-r this piece of le~islation. It is a bad piece of lepjsl?tion. It is a knife in the back of any of our present farmers and particularly our small fa!'T'1ers. Tt will certainly discourap.e any person from enterin~ the faIT.?inp inrlus try. Th<:> Liheral Opposition. ''r.

SpC'akc>r, wi 11 not support this leP,islation. Tt is a bad pj<:>ce of lcp:islation. ~373

Tape 133q (mornin~) n. - 6 I will close it now, aml wt> will,votC" aeainst it • . Is the !!oust> ready for the QUt'stion? If the honourahle minisfor speaks now he closes the dc>h.ate. r-!R • M'A YMA!?D : Just a couple of cou,ments. ~r. SpP.aker, this is the only loan a~ency that the ~overnrnent have that was ever instituted by government wh,:,re the rate of interest '1-Yas specifically li~ited by the legislation. I see no rC"ason why this Piece of legislation should be any different frow any others.

The Farm Development Loan Act and the Farm Develo'!'lllent toan Fund is set out to lend money t~ farmers for development but that money whether we 111':e it or not must be borrowed at high rates of interest. We have other programmes that we have brought into effect for the fannere. I 8111 safe in saying that we brought in more pro~reeaive programmes for farmers over the past year than the previous ~ovemment harl ever dreamt about or ever cared to bring in.

He will continue to bring in programmes that offer such thinps as ~rant~, lend clearing ~onuses and whatnot, th~ hlu~berry development . . programr,.e wh~ch my honourable friend is very, very interested in. As far as stymieing of the farmers is concerned, I see no reason why it will. Certainly we have no intention of raising interest rates to the limit whereby farmers cannot borrow. But the limitation is being removed and I therefore movE> second readin~ of the bill. MR, SPFAKF.P· Ia it the pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a second time.

On motion bill, read a second ti~e, ordered referred to a Cor,,mittee of the Whole House presently. by leave. Motion. second rearlin~ of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Automobile Insurance Act." mN. T. A. 'RICY.}'AN. crm~ISTT.R OF JUSTICE) : r1r.

Speaker, in rising to ~ove s('cond readin~ of thts bill,I direct to the attention of the honourable House that bill No. 116 is nPcessiated as a result of bill !lo. 115. so anything I say in' 115 would apply equally to. 116. '!'h:ls will hllve the effect, if thfs honourable P.ousc> sel"s fit to enact it, to increas,:, thP mtnimum liahility anrl pro~l"rty damar.,:, coverare in auto~obile insurance to $75,nno. ii374

}'ay 1, lQ73 Tape 1330 (morninr) PK - 7 "r. "n(';ih:,r. thC' rov<>rnm<>nt have hC'C'n advisPcl hy the- insurance inclnstrv thnt "liC'n<'v<'r lim1.ts :ir<' incrC'rtsC'd, ;mci thPy RTC' fro111 tim<' to tirf'. thC'r" is no incl"<>a~P c1111rr<'rl unt1.1 the rC'nC'w11l of the nc-xt prC',i.u., falls rlu<>. ~o if you pni,1 your insurance pr!'r:!.um la!!lt wC'ek - r: pn". "T"'T•rp• Coulcl th<' honourah]p ministc-r te>ll us Phat th<:> incr<'asC' ~ould he after? "P. J'.IC!,.,'A~: · Tlie incr<:>ase. ,'r.

SpC'aker, will he, this is only on PL and PD insurance .~shich is the lowest part of the premium, will bl'.' t~;elve per cC'nt. which is only a very few dollars indeed. Honourah le r.iemliC'rs r:,ay he intc>rc>stcd to know that hy raisin~ the mini~un requirements to $75,noo minimum covC'r;:i.pe t!ewfoundland will now be ahead of any oth<:>r provinc<:> of Canada insofar as minimum limits are concrrnC'<l, At the pr<:>sC'nt time we ha·,e m:inimun limits of ~35,00n, ~ova Scotia has S 35, ()fl(), !lew Brunswick S 35,000, Prince Edward Island $35.000 , and ~ucbC'c S3s,nnn.

British Co!umhia has sso,ono mini~I.Dl' linits plus accident benc-fits, Albe.rta S35,0('JO plus accident benefits. Ontario $50,000 plus accident henefits, and ~fanitoha $50,000 plus accident benefits, and Saskatchewan has a minimum limit of $50,nn.o. This, '·'r. Speaker, 1,1111 provide additional protection not only for the travc>lling public of ~'.ewfoundland but for Ne·pfoundlanders generally and 1,1111 ensure that• and I think hrinps the mini'lltUffl lil!lits into a realistic al!lount.

I am advised by the insurance industry that,in nost inetances, when sellinp, autOMohile insurance,that they convince without any difficulty thc>ir clil'nt!'I to huy a 'T"linfoum of !'ilOO ,non coveral'e anyway. The cost is not that hirh to the public but.in any event, the orotection is well 1,•orth it. As I say, the next bill, the Amendment To the Pic>~•ay Traffic Act, to hrinr judgment recovery in lire with the r.1ini1"un lil!lits the sa!"e principle applies.so uhat I have said about t"is ½ill ap-:,1:1.es ('l'Ju1tlly to the ·0th.er.

The only . thing I believe in the> second bill, the l'irhi.•ay Traffic ft.ct Anc>ndrr,ent, which 1 nir.ht direct r.ononra½lc> mc-m',c>rR l\tt~ntion to,is in section (5),which 0375

'l Tape 1339 (mominF) increases a coverar,e from $Sn,nnn to s2sn,nno or not leas than $250. non. This covers fleet insuranc _e. I l"Ove se~ond readinp. PY. - 8 MR. W. N. POWE: Very hriefly. t'r. ~pcaker .. we have no objection at all in pr;l.nciple to thee~ two bills. 116 a.nd 115. I am ?lad to hear that .1uclgr.,ent recovery is also roing to he brou~ht in line with the JT1:f.nbmm requirements under the private insurance schel'les. There are two or three things thourh that I would cornnent on the the minister.for surve:1.llance really hy his department.

ThE Superintendent of Insurance com~s under the Department of Provincial Affairs. So the ~inister of Provincial Affairs.who is not in his seat,mip;ht be well advised to keep a sharp eye on this. One is the matter of premiums. There was a lot of talk in the papers I believe and other c0111111entators when the rninister first mentioned raisinp; these minumum limits. There was a lot of commcmt as to what affect this would have on the cost to the conswr.er, to the purchaser of insurance - policies.

There was a general feelinr, that it would raise the prerniU111 to if not a prohibitory high level than a very inhibitory high level. I do. not think that should be necessarily so at all. The ~reat cost, the biggest cost in liability insurance is the first few dollars, This is why you have the deductibles.

For example, the person~ buys an insurance policy can.~et a much cheaper policy of insurance if he has a higher deductible, and this is clear evidence that the first few hundred dollars, certainly the first few thousand dollars is the most e%pensive part of insurance as far as claims by the policyholder to the insurance company is concerned. So I do not think that there should be any p;reat increase in premhans as a result of raising it from the present limits to t~ia limit of $75,000 • . There should not be.

A twelve per cent increase. ~-:ell - HR. m:C~A.~! · 'Inaudible. -------- t-'R, ~m.rr,, P,N, The liabUity asre .ct· of it is a very cheap insurance. The colli11ion n11rect of insurance is the hii?h one, whrre your car is wiped out, for exal"pla, this is where thC' real cost of insurance

uay 1, 1973 TapC' 133~ (morninr-) PK - <) cot:1es. 'And of course, it is a ~rC'at cost to thC' consur.,er as well becausC' people" like to have their m:n investr,ent rrotC'ctcd. Rut as far as the li~hility aspect of it, the liability to third party as a result of rotor vehicle accidents is concC'rned,that is a very chC'ap insurance'. There should not be any !?reat increase in premiums.

There will be an increase c~rtainly hut not one th.at I think will casse people to 70 broke or anythinr, like that. nut I would col!11'lcnd to the !'finister of Provincial Affairs that his _officials keep a sharp watch on what the insurance industry now does in respect of this new proposal, to make sure that they do not tar.e advantar,e of the situation to raise the premiums more than is warranted by this increase in the minimum. I am sure the insurance cor.ipanies are responsible and that a r.reat number of them will not try and tar.e advantage of this.

Of course, any person can shop arounf and find an insurance conpany which is the lowest. There is a certain arrount of competition going on but we should make sure that they do not take advanta~e of this to raise the premium more than is warranted by this proposal. I believe already in }!ewfoundland the insurance premiU!T\s are the hir.hest in Canada, even for public liability. There may be some good reason for this. Perhaps property damar,a and the n1.1111ber of collisions etc., per capita are higher than in other parts of Canada. Perhaps that is so.

There.may be a need for a complete •investigation into the insurance industry,not that they are doing anythin~ underhanded or anything but to make certain that we here in !l"ewfotmdland arC' not heinp.; penali21ed as we are penalized as we are penalized in other areas of our consu,,:er life and commerical life, ~ hi~h transportation costs and all this sort of thinp:.

We should make sure that any incrC'ase in prer,iul'ls not-• as a result of this is related directly to this raising of the mini~um rather than any insurance cor!panies takinp: advantare of the situation to raise their premium just to !"ake r.-ore ll'Oney. We often see when a new tax is imposed on s~e ~ind of a consuriahle product that the makers and the prqducers and the retailt:'rs of thi"I prorluct often rai.sc,d thPir price as wE'll ~377

11ay 1. 1973 Tape 1339 (™?ming) PK - 10 to try and blam~ it on the increase in taxes. I.et uA 1'1AkP Sl1rP., I al!' not saying they are roing to. hut let us rnake sure that the :Insurance it'ldustry in thii, provit'lce does not ta~e advantape of this situation to do ~uch the aime thing. Also the minister haa l'tc-ntinnerl no fault insurance in this l!ouse before, and there is a committee of cahfoet I believe which is lool--inr into the whole area of no fault insurance.

The time will corne undoubtedly when this will be broup,ht into this province and a ~ood thing it will be, I think, because obviously there is - you flip a coin in an automobile accident to see w~o is at fault, that is what it aJ11ounts to. It depends many times on the condition of the judge's stomach,whether he had a good breakfast or not, as to who is found liable. So the whole area needs to be revamped.

The other thing that I would ask the minister to l'lake sorne comment on is in the al'ea of smne kind of compulsory insurance anyway, ascheMe whereby everybody who operates a motor vehicle should be obliged to have insurance coverap,e, public liability insurance for personal and pr~per~y damage, coverage for that.· P~ght now the judgment recovery takes up most if not ail of the slack in that reFard.

But it seems to me that perhaps a combination of the pri'll'ate insurance industry to~ether with a state-rUI_! insurance scheme should make it ohli~~tory for everybody operatinr, a motor vehicle to have insurance. lf there is some good reason why a person caTinot ~et insurance,either throur.h the private scheme or throu,h soma ~overnment schet"e, then l"'l'!rhaps that is a good. case for not allmrin~ that person to drive anyway. As "-'e talked about in the recent dc~ate,"·hich I will not • r1Bke ~reat reference to hut a recent debate on hi~hway safety, ~r.

Speaker, a ~reat number of the accidents in a province,fatal and other,.:ise, in this provinc(' and other provinc<:>s of Canada, are caused by riany-tiMe repeaters, people who s<:>ar., to he accident prone, people who seem to cause Many ~ore than t~('ir fair share of the accidents and the darnare and the injuries and the fatalities in Canada. So perhi:tps all of th1.s thin?: could lJe lin!, .ed in to~ethf'r ii378

Tape 1339 (nornin?) PK - 11 as well 'in some kind of a col'lpu] sory insurance schc>!"e. ThC're !l'ay he no rreat nPed, ncrhars the r.iinister can cJar:lfy this, there n~y he no p.reat need with junpr1ent recovery beinp. in existence but on the ot~<"r lumd, judp;mPnt recovery i!'l supportC'd hy the taxrs of the nrovincc>. Inaurl 1. h le> • 1-;ell Pherc> c'loN! the nonc>y come from? The i~surance industry. HR. 'POP'E. P .ti . The insurance industry> _and 1-!here does their money co!'1e fror.1?

Phen I say "taxes" I mean the taxpayers of the province, the consur.,ers of the province have to find the money out of their own pockets really to support people who either do not get insurancP or cannot r;et . insurance. I believe the operative word is •·cannot" get insurance. Perhaps there is a need for an investir,ation into the reasons why people cann'ot p;et insurance.

If it ·is because they ar('I rereaters, traffic violators, accld~nt rates which arc astronomical compared co che average, then perhaps it is a p,ood case for keepinp, people of that type off the road, 1-:eepinr: letral ~-reapons like ' automc~iles and vehicles out of their hands. In any event this would have the effect of also lowering the premiums. It would ~ave the• effect of lowerin~ certainly the amount of damage, property dmnar,e, the amount of pain and suffering ca~sed by in~uries. and death on our highways. Perhaps this is a case for that kind of an investi~ation. That I believe. l'fr.

Speaker, is about all we have to say on this particular hill. Perhaps the l'linister mir,ht pive us the benefit of some of hi!'! thoup.hts on one or t~Jo of the matters which I have raised already. !'-fP • SPF.AY.~'P : debate. ... If the honourable minister speaks now hP closo11 the "r. Speal-:er, the points takP.n by the honourable the i:,el'!ber for l·'hite Bay South are very valid. With respect to the rather hirh autDl!lohile insurar,ce prer.ium paid in this province , I a~ told there u3'l9

uay 1, 1973 Tape 133~ (morning) PK - 12 are ~any factors r.oveminr that, not the least of which, is th~ hir,h cost of repairs of motor v~hicles that are involved in collisions, another ohviously has to he the accident rate. I can only reree.t what I said in introducin,- this bill that the insurance industry has assured rne that the increase arisin~ out of the imple~entation of this bill,the passa~e of it,will not be very !?reat indeed. With respect to the cabinet committee of which I am Chairman, that has been appointed to look at .no fault insurance. Our teTID.S of reference are sufficiently broad, Mr.

Speaker, to also look at the question of compulsory insurance. ~Tow I believe with no fault insurance there is an element of compulsion, as ~art of the package. It is a new \ concept. Hassachusctts ill'pleinented i~ this year, Ontario is looking at it, i am not sure if any Canadian province has implemented it or not. !nat!dible. British ColU%'lbia has a form of no-fault insurance. But the pure no-fault insurance in its absolute finality and purity -· I think you will find Massachusetts is the only iurisdiction right now with it •. This is what we will be looking at.

With respect to judgment recovery~that as I recall was brought into being by the insurance industry to replace the unsatisfied judgment fund. ~row the mi.satisfied judgment fund, Mr. Speaker, was a fund paid by the taxpayer,

whereas the judgment recovery, I suppose indirectly the ll'onies may come out of the premium payers. Insofar as the _inahility of certain ~otorist to obtain an automobile insurance is concerned.because of pa~t had -driving habits and records, there is th~ aAsiF,ned risk progr8JTll'le ~hich is - I am startin~ to forr,~t all these fomulas now - after a number of accidents an insur~nce coll'pany could ~ither cancel the policy or alternatively refuse to renew it because> of ~he ~380

May 1, 1973 Tape DO. 1340 Page 1 - MRW accident record of its insurant. But having done that, they were then obliged to send that person's name to the assigned risk. I have forgotten the name of the association. I think Mr. Gerald Walsh administers it. Then he assigns it to one of the companies and they must take it. Eventually, if he still has another crack-up or two whilist he is under assigned risk, then he will not get insurance and I believe he loses his licence. That is some protection that is afforded under the assigned risk programme~ I move second reading.

On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Automobile Insurance Act;" read a second time, o·rdered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, presently, by leave. On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," read a second time, ordt'!red referred to a Committee of the Whole House,presently, hy leave. Motion s~cond reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Education (Teacher Training) Act." HON. G. OTTENHEIMER (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, this is a bill to amend the Education (Teacher Training) Act.

Its provisiotlS . ar@ not, as far as I can see, anything of a controversial nature. It is basically legislation which will tidy up and mke a couple"of substantive changes but not ones of great policy nor orientation. Provisions are essentially as follows: The enactment of this will provide that the Board of Examiners will rec~end applicants for initial certification only, that the final certification.after a two year period being attested by a principal or a supervisor,will then be done by the Department of· Education. This in fact has been .. the practice for the past few years.

This is to clarify it legislatively. Another provision; whereby in the original act there are provisions for the cancellation of a teacher's certificate in cases proven (I think there are three) drunkenness, incompetence and gross immorality. Now cancellation is not the only remedy, there is also the possibility of suspension and that is the second provision·, i38l

~y 1, 1973 Tape 1140 PaJ.>:e 2 The third ;-,revision allows for alternative re!)resentation on the certification cor.tMittec. A desir,nat1on person from the universit~ or the NTA cannot attend.

The other one of consequence is· that fro~ the point of view ,f renuncration, a teacher's ccrtific~te, the awarcinr of a certificate or a new certificate for upgraciinr or whatever !'lay be frori the point of vie•-r of reriuneration, th~t will beco~e e~f.ective at the first of the r,onth in which that certificate is receive~ rather th~n previously, until the enact~ent, there was a period of re.troactivity goin~ back three or four lllonths. The reasons for that are no lon~er really that operative., These are the main rrovisions of this bill. MR ROl:rE: (F.B,) Mr.

Speaker, we will support this part::!-cular bill but in J:tesitation only. We on this side of the !louse do not think the bill f?.Oes far enouY,h in as far as amending the Teachers' Traininr, Act is concerned. I do not have the revised statutes in front of me but speakin~ from memory, there appear to be three separate boards or committees that a teacher has to make application through in order to become certified in this particular province •. The first is the board of exSI!liners. There is a board of examiners, I understand, for each one of the denominations in this province, with over 10,000 in population.

There are three boards; the Roman Catholic Board of Examiners: the Integrated Board of ExaMiners and the Pentecostal Board of ·Examiners. Now as 'I understand it,. Sir, the board of examiners accepts applications from the previous pupil/teacher and then the board of exaMiners or one of these boards of e~aminers would submit a recol!ll!lendation to the re~istrar at the Department of Education and prestmably, if it be a reasonably routine . case, the -r_er.is_~.ra_r __ would recolT!l'lend that this particular applicant be certified accordinr. to a certain rrade level.

If the case be a little more dicey, if there be some question about the professional or academic ~ualifications, then· the re~istrar submits a recommendation or ----· - submits the application to the Teachers' Certification Committee, which is composed of a representative from the Department of Education, the rer,iatrar himself, a rc~reAentative from the ~TA and R repreRentative fron the Faculty of f.rlucntton at Ml!1!lorinl tJniveuitv as well 11s one ench of' the executive-secretarie11 of' the Tlrnomln11tionnl Education Comittece. i.382

May 1, 1973 Tllpe No.129R Pap;e 3. Now, Sir, the reason why I say that this is not far-reachicg enough is that this seems to be an extremely cumbersome, c.omplex and complicated method for certifying teachers in this province, Sir, this is where we get at the whole business of whether teaching is t-ruly a profession or not. In the area of dentistry or medicine or ecgineering or architecture, these people are certified or given their tickets by a committee of their own professional organization or association. They are admitted to the bar by the Bar Association.

They are admitted to practice medicine, according to the Medical Association. In this province the teachera hav~ to make application really through three separate organizations or associations or boards,and this seems to be ind~ed complex, cumbersome and complicated. Now, Sir, last year we saw a case where a young lady in St. John's, just graduating from Memorial, ~ecided to test her own case ·aad she refused to state her religious affiliation in order to make appllcatiou for certification, accerdi~g to a certain 9alaY"!' grade.

She was unable for the longest period of time to get a r~co111111endation from the Board of Examiners to the registrar and thence to the teach .. r certification committee. Nov, Sir, it is Dr/ feeling and I am sure of Dr/ colleagues as vell,that a teacher's certification should be based ouly on three thillgs. within reason,and that is academic qualifications, his or her professional qualifications and his or her moral standards. These are the only three general th:ings that I can think of that should be used as criteria for the purpose of certifying teachers in this prov.lace. AH HON. MEMBER: KR.

ROWE (1.B): are all about. . ~ The last one is a dangerous one, is it not? Well it is embodied in the act itself what moral standards I think if therebo 10me aue1tion1 about the moral standard~ of an individual, they should be put.to the teat through the organization

May 1, 19-73 Tape no. 1298 Page 4 or the usociation or the board within the Department of Education. The point i•, Sir, (I want to make this as strongly as I can) that a person'• religious affiliation should have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not he or she becomes certified u a professional teacher in this province or any other province of Canada • Sir, hiring practices are aometh~ else.

If a particular achool board were conceraad about the rel1gioua affiliation of a teacher with rupect to teaching a course in religion or some of the social atudiu, I ca aee to a certain degree the concern that a school board might have in term of hiring an individual teacher and questioning the religioua affiliation of that individual teacher with respect to the actual hiri;ug of the teacher. Th.en we can get i12to all soru of business of diacrillination in hiring practices and this would probably cause another kind of co12troversy.

Sir, setting back to actual certification itself, I think we should remove entirely from the Teacher Training Act thi.s idea of an i.udividual having to •~te or put in. writing .hia or her religiou affiliation before he or she can receive a recoaaendation frma the Board of Ezaminers to the registrar and thence to the Teacher Certification eo.aittee of the Departaent of Education. 'lbere are Ciro points, Sir:

(1) I think the whole proceaa of teacher certification is cumbersome and too coaplex;and

(2) I think that religious affiliation should have nothi12g whatsoever to do with the certification of a teacher. It ahould be brough.t in line with other like 1>rof essions. If teach1.ag is to be considered a profeHion similar to and an on au equal statue with the medical profeasion, the engineering profession, the legal profeaaion, any other pmfeaaion., I think they should have the same aechaniam of certification. If, for instance, an obstetrician haweas to be - I do not gueaa anybody mi11ds my using this example. If there is some question about an abortion or something, it seems unlikely that the average i384

May 1. 1973 Tape no. 1340 Page S pregnant lady would go to a Roman Catholic obstetrician who has strong religious beliefs about this sort of a thing. The same thing can be true in hiring practices or where an individual teacher wishes to teach or what board wishes to hire that particular teacher based on his or her religious affiliation. When it comes to certification, Sir, I think this government should have taken the bull by the horns this year in amending the Teacher Training Act &.Dd they should have included this kind of amendments in this particular bill. Sir.

I would like to get the minister's thoughts on this when he gets up to close the bill because last year during the controversy and having listened to certain comments made by the honourable the Premier, I felt sure at that tim~ that the Premier was going to take the bull by the horns because he indicated at one stage of the game that he was going to set up a special cdmmittee to study the denominational educational system. However that became eroded away when the Premier realized what he was getting into.

We were not advocating that he set up a committee to look at the whole denominational . system of education because we do not have a purely denominational educational system in this province. We have a church/state partnership.

It is working reasonably well but there are a few weaknesses and one of the weaknesses is the case where a person goes down and the Beard of Examiners or the Chairman of the Board of Examiners says, "What is your religion?" The applicant says,"Well I do not wish to reveal my religious affiliation." I feel that that -is a personal matter." There may be all aorta of c0111plicated reason~ why a person does not want to public~ put hi.a or her religious affiliation on an applicatioQ form.

Sir, we have had cases wl\ere these applicants ~o the teaching profess .ion have been told,"Well it reaily does not matter whether you have strong conviction.11 or not, Just put down anything at all just for the purpose of this application:' I am sure there are individuals u3-85

Hay 1, 1973 ,Tape no. 1340 PAGE 6 in this honourable House who are awa~e of these cases. I do not want to mention people'  names involved but people have been told,back when I was graduating from the university and quite recently, "Just put anything dOWD at all for the purpose of getting certified.• This J seems to be a rather ridiculous thing to be going oa ia our province in thi modern day, Sir. I would like for the minister to c01111ent on it.

We will support the bill but we are extremely disappointed that the minister has not seen fit at this particular stage to bring in further amendments to take care of this ridiculous problem that we appear to have at the present time with respect to teacher certification. MR. OTTENBEIMEll: Mr. Speaker, there are just a couple of points to make. The honourable member for St.

Barbe North referred to the cumbersome procedure for certification and certainly it ia potentially cumbersome. · Actually ninety-nine point, whatever that point might be, point one or point nine, hut in ninety-nine ~oint percentage of ap~lications for certification. there, of course, is DO cumberaomenesa whatsoever. The opposition aaid that they were disappointed that the gove~t have not brought in legislation with respect to certification which would put an end to the requirement that persons indicate their religious affiliau.c,n.

Allow me to point out: The honourable gentleman has mentioned that we do not have an uniquely church system of education nor dove have a state system. we do have a partnership. Mr. Speaker, In a partnenhip then the question arises; is there a partnership of things being done unilaterally or does the partnership require that thing  be done by agreement? We have this partnership. The opposition does not suggest that we abolish this partnership.

I suggest that,aa a necessary part of that paTtnership, there is the necessity of doing things by consensus, certai-nly of making every possible effort to do things by consensus aad that unilateral action is ndt in the spirit of that partner hip. In the opinion of the ta·te part of that partnership, in the opinion of the government. the considerations with respect to certification i386

May 1, 1973 Tape no • 1 340 Page 7 (obviously one can make a distinction between certification and employment) or from the point: of view of certification, what is important is the person's academic and prof4~sional background or professional suitability and the character. These are the matters which are operative,in our point of view,for certification because what certiftcation does is that it attests to the fact that this person is qualified to teach in the schools within the jurisdiction. It is not in itself a teaching assignment.

A person then has to look for an employer, a school board in most cases, institutional schools or a few schools directly t.mder the Department of Education,but then oce goes to look for an employer. I suppose it is something like a certificate of admission to the bar. A person is then entitled to practice law. It does not mean that he automatically has any clients, the same with a doctor or a number of things. I think there is a fairly good parallel there.

A professio~Al cercification for A t~a~h~r, certai~ly as it is usually understood, would mean that a person is professionally and in terms of character and academically qualified and then authorized to practice the profession of teaching. He or she thee looks for employment. There is no dollbt about that. The only point I wish to make is, as the opposition has stated, that we do have a partnership and as I understand from the words of the opposition, they do support that partnership.

I would suggest that a necessary part of that partnership is to work toward agreement and consensus and that unilateral action certainly is not in the spirit of the partnership and there is a responsibility to work toward agreement and consensus there. Thia is a matter upon which during the past few months I have bad a fev meetings with the other arm of that partnership and no doubt we will be having a few more. I move second reading. HR. ROWE (F.B.): Mr. Speaker, there is one thing,with leave of the Bouse, lt is true that we support the state-church partnership but I would

. Hay 1, 1973 Tape DO. 1340 Page 8 like to make it quite clear that we do not support the weaknesses iD that particular partnership and there are a Dumber of weaknesses. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I do not think there is anybody who supports weaknesses, Mr. Speaker. We try to improve the system. On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Education (Teacher Training) Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, presently, ry leave. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Education (Teachers' Pensions) Act. HR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, this is a bill which will bring a few amendments to the Teachers' Pension Act. There are, of course, a number of areas in which it is hoped that within the near future further improvements can '!>e made from the point of view of teachers' pensioDs. They are not included here because government are UDdertaking a review of the entire pension area for people (I will not say in the p'.!bl:!.c ::er.'ice because teachers are not in thP- public 11@rv:lce) who are paid from public funds. In the areas where they correspond, obviously we would hope to get uniformity.

That does not mean that they correapond in all areas. This, however, will bring in three quite This, however, will brin~ in three quite worthwhile improvel!lents to teachers' pensions and to the provisions for teachers' pensions.

(1) This will establish complete portability bet~een the Public Services Act and the Teachers' Pension Act. Prior to this aJllendment service could not be transferred if there were a break in service of more than three years. This provides com~lete portability between the Public Service Act and the Teachers' Pension Act - portability of pensions.

(2) This change also ~ives teachers under the E<lucation Pension Act, 1927 the same ri~hts and privileres as teachers under the Education Pension Act, 1962 in the reatter of deferred pensions, upon the completion of ten years of pensionahle service. It establishes an equity there, An eouity of treatment. (3) m th the enactl"lent of this bill there will be provision for the countinp of service ·ctone with the r.overnrraent of· Canada, on a pensionable .I basis. Previously service with thE> GovernMcnt of Canada co~d not be countetl. 0388

May 1, 1973 Tape DO. 1340 Page 9 as pensionable under the Teachers' Pension Act. This will establish a three-way portability,in effect, between the provisions of the Teachers' Pension Act, the Federal Civil Service Act and the Provincial Public Service Act. These are three of a number of provisions which the N.T.A. and indeed others interested in the welfare of teachers have been endeavouring to get implemented.

As I say,I am quite sure that,not in the too distant future, there will be further amendments which will be beneficial•• well, Thue certainly are three which are worthwhile and significant improvements • MR. ROWE (F.B.): Mr. Speaker, this seems to be a good, sensible and reasonable piece of legisiation, Sir. We coumend the minister for bringing it in. I think this three-way portability is certainly needed with respect to the Teachers' Pension Act. Once again we would like to give thi~ bill our full support.

On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Education (Teachers' Pensions) Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a C0111Dittee of the Whole House, presently, l,y leave. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole to consider a resolution: " That it is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize the raising from time to time by way of loan on the credit of the province the 91.1111 of $177 million," Mr. Speaker left the Chair. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I presume we will adopt our normal procedure and discuss this at the resolution stage.

This bill is made necessary, of course, by the changes made in the Financial Administration Act which was debated on second reading yesterday. It is the first loan bill to come before the House since the session of 1966. In the resolution,the amount we are asking the Ho~ae to authorize the government to borrow during this financial year is an amount of $177 million. That amount is arrived at in this way. u389

Hay 1, 1973 Tape no. 1340 Page 10 If on~ were to l ook at the cstin:ttcs of the province, page two, statement A, it gives a

summary of the borrowing requirements, the sources of funds for 1973-1974, with comparative figures for 1972-1973. The total amount that the province needs to borrow during the year on these estimates is $208,515,000. That is made up and represents,on capital_ account, a net expenditure of $180,946,400. When you deduct from that the current account surplus we hope to have, it makes a total budgetary requirement,on current and capital account required to be borrowed, $174,224,300. I am just explaining now how the figure of $208 million is arrived at.

To that then has to be added, $21,470,000, whichis for bonds coming due to be redeemed during this present financial year. In addition we have to borrow $12,820,700 for sinking fund purposes. That makes the total debt retirem~nt $34,290,700. When you add that together with the total budgetary requirement of $171&,0l)IJ ~dt!, t'h:!t totals $208,515,000.

New in auivio.g at the amount that we are asking the House to approve our borrowing, you have to take the $208 million (we will forg~t the smaller figures) and you deduct from that the $21,470,000, which is money we have to bouow to meet bonds coming due because that is already authorized by the Financial Administration Act, tnat brings it down to $187 million, to use round figures here. We already had one debenture issue during this year,in Germany, in April, which amounta to approximately $35 million Canadian and $100 million Deutschemarks. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). 11 MR.

CROSBIE: We had an issue this month of $100 million Deutschemarks, six and one-half per cent interest and it was sold at ninety-nine SDd one-half to yield the investor six point four four nine per cent. The bonds had a term of fifteen years. The cos.t t.o the province was six point seven nine four per cent, which is an improvement over our last issue in GermaIJy. The last issue in Germany before that,I thiDk was last October. There was an improvement of point three two three per cent. The laat issue. in o3~o

May 1. 1973" Tape no •. 134 0 Page 11 Ger:many b.y the way was at an interas t rate of six and three-quarters • . This is an interest rate of six and one-half. We have already borrowed, this year, $100 million Deutschemarks which is approximately $35 million Canadian. WheIJ you deduct that from the $187 million, it le.aves you $152 million, I am forgetting now the few odd thousands. Is eveeybody foUowing this? That is $152 million and we would like the Houae to authorize, Mr. Speaker, an additional $25 million, which we may or may not borrow. It would depend on market c:oaditiona.

In other word•,if ue:xt February or March it appeared to be the right time to borrow, altl:lough the money may not be needed until the next fin&11cial year, then we would want to have some flexibility 0391

May 1, 1973 Tape 1341 so we coulcl do that. As you know we are askinp; the House to authorize us to borrow an acl~itional $?5 million,if it appears to the povernment that it is desirable to do that hecause of market conditions or it mirht appear that interest rates are goinr to go up in the next few months or there may be a dozen different reasons why this should be done. That is therefore why we asked the House to authorize borrowings totallinp, $177 million. MR. ROBERTS: There is not r.mch needs to be said on this, Mr. Chairman •. The minister has given us the figures.

I think the only point which I would make is that this apain shows the hypocrisy of the position that allegedly the power to borrow has been returned to the House of Assembly. .We are now being asked in committee and the House will shortly approve a bill to raise ~152 million to be used in the current financial year,and that is fine. That 1110ney is to be spent on the purposes approved in the est1mates and as Your Honour will recall we did have a day and a night or so of debate on s0111e portions of the estimates.

That is okay,but in addition v'e are being asked to approve a Stnall cache, a small little ~argin, a little leeway, equivalent to one-sixth of the total, it is an extra $25 million • travelling money if the Minister of Finance.should need to travel, if we should get a good deal. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: No, I do not quarrel. Let me be a little more serious for a second. Sir ; t do not quarrel with the request for this at all because I think it is quite reasonable. As the minister has said,it may be next January or February or March the money markets may improve.

There is no doubt the province is going to need at least $25 million on capital account at some time in the future over and beyond the $152 nillion we have here. ·There is no doubt at all,if the money markets are p.ood the Minister of Finance should grab what .. he can ~et and if he can ret it at favourable rates and upon favourable terms then he should r.rnh it 1111d put it in the hnnk because cert1linly JM - 1

May 1, 1973 Tape 1341 the province needs it soent and it shall be spent. All I c'!:1 sayin$t, Sir, is that the !-louse has no control over it. Pere we are authorizinp, the p,overnment now, we are r,ivin~ them a blank cheque to borrow $25 million for no stated expenditure. There is no purpose for which this money is being borrQ'\',1ed except if we can borrow it we shall. Hell, 111ore power to the!"'. Now at some point the House will have to authorize that expenditure. It may be the rniniatry will have a windfall, they will get the $25 millions and they will spent it. ~"'f HON. ME'M!lER: From Ottawa? 'HR.

ROBERTS: Well if it is from Ottawa,hopefully it will be a gift as equalization is, a r,rant, not a loan,as a loan from Ottawa still has to be repaid in some great settling-up day, a million years fro~ now. But the government will have $25 million ~nd they may go ahead and spend it in which case we will have a supplementary supply bill and it will u~ ratlfied retroactiv~ly or they may just put!~ iu the bank and hold on to it,in which case it will be ratified in the estimates for next year.

But the point i~ the r,overnment ' that trumpeted so much about returning to.the House of Assembly control over legislation then hailed the reinstitution of the Loan Act ~s being a great step forward, as being a major reform, a major advance, here they are asking now the House to approve the money whose expenditure we have approved, $152 million.and I could see throwing in a 111illion or two to cover cont~gencies, but a little travellinr, money of $25 nillion. .. .m - 2 !low, Sir, that is more than even the Smallwood Administration, and we were so lambasted for keeping the Stephenville operation going by ptanpinr. in $24 million on short-term credits which were all repaid durinp, the fiscal year, that is ,1'10re than we put in there, that is more I would venture than any net supplementary Supply bill ~n the history of this province because,even the yeAr when it was $46 ~illion,the fiscal year endinr, March, 1972, even in that year

May 1, 1973 Tape 1341 the supplenentary supply hill was I think $46 r:iillion. F.ven in that year, Sir. that was a gross fi?.ure. Half that money had been repaid to the province hy the ti~e the hill came in to authorize the oripinal advances that were made in connection with the mill at Stephenville. So $25 million, Sir, is a large mar~in, it is a larr,e amount of leeway. We spoke yesterday of the loopholes in the act. I have not even touched on the lc;,opholes in' the teir.porary borrowin~s. The temporary borrowin~s could be in addition to this. So all I am saying, ~r.

Chairman, is that the achninistration cane in and trumpeted. You would think that it was the new millennium. Two, four, six, eight, nine members on the government side are interested enough in this to be present. I think we should have a quorum call, Sir. Would the clerk count the House, please? We h:ive :i. qt:or:!~. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Hr. Chairman. I am delighted to know. I think this is important enotJRh that members should be here. I can tell you if we had more than nine on this side,we would have some fun with them on a vote. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: Then the honourable gentleman from Harbour Main will learn,if he talks to my colleague. But, Mr. Chairman, quite seriously this is a large amount of money. We are being asked to authorize a $2S million float over and above the eY-penditure approved by the House and this does make a complete mockery of the administration's statements that they would not borrow noney without cominr. back to the House of ARsemhly to get approval.

They are asking us to approve not juRt S1S2 million that has been app~oved by the lerisl~ture, th~ net hudret~ry requirements less whnt has been .m - 3 horrm,•ed thiH yeRr ,11n<I hy the> way that wns harrowed without prior ler.islativc apprnv;il, they an• 11:-iJ.:tnr, us to borrow an extra S?.5 million

May 1. 1973 T11pe l 31, l to authorize this A.~ HO~. ~!Pffir:R: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Yes, yes and they did not bother reportinp. it either. It was done secretly. There was no public statement uritil the minister made the stater:1ent now, secretly borrowing,GerT!lan marks. I hope we borrowed them after revaluation and not before. Well, vr. Chairman, I am p,oine to object to this. I am going to move, if this is the appropriate time, that the amount authorized by the resolution he red·uced by $20 million. That will give the roverrur.ent a $5 million cushion and I think that is a pretty handsome cushion.

If this government mean what they have been saying,they will not borrow money without previous le~islative authorization and they will not ask fo·r Sl77 million which is $25 million more than they have budgeted to spend. I should think a $5 million cushion is a generous one. J,<R.. ~OWE (t.1."T. ) ~ together. MR. ROBERTS: ~ure end if. they want !!'Ore l~t them call the House Yes, if they want more let them call the Rouse to17ether. l•le are p;oinii; to meet ap:ain in June, I urtderstand. So we can be called together on short notice at any time.

It inay take two or three days to get the House together an<l indeed if worst comes to worst, Sir, the governrnent,if their caseweresufficiently stron~,could take a chance and could borrow a few dollars or they can make unlimited short-term loans. So, Sir, this bill now in the coI!U!littee jus; exposes the hypocrisy, the complete and utter hypocrisy of the position which was advanced. We saw yesterday . the bill itself has loopholes that you could drive the highways department ~achinery throup:h side by side.

They may have 3,000 machines but the loophole is hip enough to drive them all through eimultaneou~ly si~e hy Aide and the ~ueen Eli?.abeth 11 could ,-o through as well nnd we could put all thoae trawlers, the $40 million worth of trawlers in the throne si,eech,they could p:o through the loo'!'lhole. ii395 JM - 4

M;iy 1, 1~73 Tape 1341 So, ~•r. Chairn.:m, we object to this and we are J!:Oin'l'' to ~ive the ~overmr.cnt the chance to be men of their word, .to be men of princinle, T move that the amount authorized by the resolution be reduce<:' l>y the nice ro1m<l sum of $20 million and that will give the government, Sir, a $5 million cushion. I think $5 ~illion should be enour.h for any ;iclminis tr.1tion for corning and gain~ money. 'If they cannot come and go on $5 million, Sir, they are not very good at all. MR. ROWE(W.N.): It is more than supplementary supply. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, it is more than supplernentary supply, yes.

MR. CROSBIE: ~r. Chain'lan, really the feelinP, of nausea sweeps over one when one hears such, what can I call it? A.~ HON. MEMBER: Twaddle. MR. CROSBIE: No ~tis worse than twaddle. It is boddle. It is vicious twaddle. It is hypocrisy run-a-muck. Mr. c·n.airman. if the Leader of the Onposition cimnot understand what this House did yesterday by voting for the financial administration act on second readin~, if he truly cannot understand that,he is unfit to be the leader of a party in this province or any province,if he really cannot understand it.

If he does understand it, and I would assume that he does understand it because the man has a modicum of intelligence,as he went through university and did not do too badly, he has his LLA and his BA and BS, and we heard his BS here this r.i_orning, we know that he has a modicum of intelli~ence,so he realizes that this is a colTll)lete change from the situation that appertained before yesterday because for the last six years the government did not have to ask this J!-1: - 5 House to authorize it to borrow any amount whatsoever,yet today we have to a~k the House to authorize us to borrow,long-te~ if necessary, $177 million.

Now that is a complete chanr.e. For six years the government did not have to ask the consent of the House ahead of time to do this at all. We now have to ask the House for the House's

May 1, 1973 Tape 1341 cons·ent and if the House do not agree they can vote against it or they can vote for the amendment and reduce tt hy $20 million. So it is a complete and utter revolution. The House is now bein~ asked and we have to explain what the money is needed for. For six years the government borrowed and did not have to explain why, did not have to ask the House to approve it.as it never came before the House at all as now it must come before the House.

The House must pass a loan hill for us to borrow long-term at all, and yet the honourahle r,entleman tries to pretend that this is no change and this is hypocrisy and the rest of it. We now have to humble ourse·lves to ask the House to approve this $177 million. We have to ask· the House

whereas before the great imperial triumvirs, of Smallwood, Willie Rowe, and Eddie Roberts,did not have to ask the House at all. They ju&t went out and borrowed wpat they liked, borrowed where they liked and did not have to ask for consen~ ~ow ~e ha~e to ask for consent. A.'{ HON. MEXBER: MR. CROSBIE: AN TION. -MEMBER: (Inaudible). Yes, because the law was ndt changed. (Inaudible). JM - f. MR. CROSBIE: So what? Where now the law is changed, we were operatin~ under the old law and we have since January 18, 1972, Now we have brought a change in the law and we have to get consent. trow the additional $25 million, Mr.

Chairman, is not because the province may need an additional $25 million in cash durin~ this financial year,as the province will not.

As I explained ~ when I introduced the bill and . as the Leader of the Opposition well knows, he has sufficient experience in this matter to know it, that is not the purpose of this at all. 17e will not need the additional cash but it may be that before the end.of March, 1974, the financial markets will be such, the lon~-term borrowing market will be such that it would be wise and prudent,in connection with the financial administration of this province, for us to go for a bond issue <1397

Hay 1, 1973 Tane 1341 althou7.h we do not need the cash iMnediately, although we will not need it perhaps until April or May or June of 1974 because, this is hypothetical, the rates then may be r:oorl or hecause we are advised hy our financial advisP.r~ that the marYet is r,oinp, to r,o in the other direction, the rates are goinR to go up or that we are going to have tir,ht money and that therefore it is now desirable to ~o for a S25 million bond issue nt thRt particular time. Therefore the honourable gentleman's amendment that it should be reduced by $20 million means that that would ·not be possible at all.

You cannot go to the bond market, Mr. Chairman, to borrow $5 million,and we are not asking for this authorization because we think we will need additional cash during this year. We will not because we will be just as scrupulous this year as last and there will be very litt~e supplementary supply again,as there was last year. The only reason why we ask the House to give us this additio,,al f"lexiuility is,in the financial int .. .cest of the province to give some flexibility.

Now if the House do not want to do that, if the House want· to say, "No, we do not want to consent to your havinR this flexibility, we want to accept the Leader of the Opposition's amendment and reduce it to $5 million," the $5 million would be useless to us,as it ~ives no flexibility and we are not ' going to need the cash in any event. So therefore.I for one will certainly vote against the amendment. The amendment might make some sense if the Leader cf the Opposition had moved that we reduce it by S25 million.

That might have had some sense to it. lle would then be saying that we do not want you to have any flexibility. We want you to forget market conditions. He _just want you to borrow what the estimates indicate as bein~ required. But no,he has taken a silly, specious, political stance,thinking that he can persuade the people of the province,who are not familiar with financial detail,that he is doing somcthinr: th;it is very sound.· Well, he iP not. His amendment is .P.f - 7

May 1, 1973 Tape 1341 .JM - 8 silly, it is asinine anrl therefore we ask the llouse humbly, I-fr. Chainnan, we be~ the House to consent to our borrowinr, this money this year. Since l~F.6 the executive ann of the governnent has never had to ask the House to do this. l-!e have restored the financial borrowinr power to this P.ouse. He now ask the rne.'llbers of the House to authorize us to borrow $177 million if necessary this year. According to the estimates at least $152 million will be necessary.

We want this flexibility and we expect the rentlemen opposite will be statesmenlike in their approach and that they will spurn this feeble at:iendment of the Leader of the Opposition and vote against it. l"P.. ROJlERTS : Mr. Chairman, havinr, heard the sackcloth and ashes performance of the humble Minister of Financetlet me say a word or two.

The honourable gentlman is a past master at twisting and distorting and when he cannot argue on the merits of the case before him he proceeds to ar~ue on the merits of any other case he can find no·matter how irrelevant, how specious, ho~ inexact, how incorrect or how imprecise. That is what we have seen him do here. So let us review the situation. The administration opposite and he have askerl us to be statesrnanlike,and I appeal to him to be ·a statesman and to stand by his word, to be a man of his word. Let us review the facts.

The honourable crowd opposite, as my colleague from Bell Islanrl so aptly calls them, time and time ap,ain said that when they hec81'1e the government of the province they would not borrou r:,oney without previous authorization of the House of Assembly, without having it approved. Then they dra~r,ed in a. bill yesterday and put the best face on it they can,because something may have heen wrong in the past or something was done with which they do not agree, they drag in a bill and put t~e best face on it they can and they only debate what vent on in the past. They do not debate the bill.

The minister tries to pass off the hill by sayin~, ''()h well, the Leac!er of the ~399

May 1, 1973 Tape l3ltl Onposition is ri~ht hut, of co11r!'lc, the fact that the price of fish in Bonavista Ray in 1912 was $1.F.J a quintal means that this bill is relevant," and thnt is exactly what he said yesterday. Ile brin~s in a bill that first of all allows thel'I unlimited te~porary borrowings, unlimited, Sir. The !finister of Finance may !!et a yen for yen and he may go off. What do they have in China? Hhat other currency do they have in China? Haos? Tungs? MR. ROT,:f. (H. N • ) : Joeys by now probablv. MR. ROREP.TS: Smallwoods. I could see Hosea over here going off.

I can see the honourable r,entleman from Harbour Main now wearin~ his Japanese happy coat, his Mao shirt, carrying his packet of savory. I would rather he carried his packet of savory than the sackcloth and ashes which drapes the honourable .the Minister of Finance. AN Hml. !-!F.MHER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Yes, "Humble John' they are ealling him out in the bays these days. He r:ertainly is a touching experience. The honourable gentleman would be well advised to keep his hand on his - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: But, Sir, we have a government now with unlimited power to borrow on a teJTtporary basis,but it matters not whether one borrows for a day or for a ~eneration, ~f one borrows one must repay. Then they come in this morning with this bill in co1!11111 ttee and say, "WeJ 1, we are ~oim; to need $150 million next year and these are the facts." They have approved expenditure of $152 million, net budgetary requirements on capital account, capital debt,but they are asking authority to borrow a little more than . that. They are asking authority to borrow $177 million.

So they are askinr- authority to borrow $25 million for we know not what. MR. EVA~S: Bur~eo-LaPoile. MR. RODERTS: Now if I thoup;ht it was p,oing up to Burgeo-LaPoile, t would be all for it,but even the losses on the fish plant will not cone to that • "IR. DOOOY: They woulrl brrak P.ven thour.h. JH - 9

May 1, 1973 Tape 1341 1-'R. ROEl".RTS: Hell,then they do not need the ~25 million for Burgeo­ LaPoile,is what the ~entleman from Harbour Main is saying. ~. DOODY: No, it is not. MR. ROBERTS: They are asking authority to borrow $25 million and they can spend that. Once they have it they can spend it,and they are p.ivin~ no reason for it axcept a little flexibility. Well, !Kr.

Chairnan, no natter how the Minister of Fin.:mce twists and distorts the facts an~ attempts to explain that which is inexplicable and attempts to defend that which is indefensible and attempts to pretend that what is is not and attempts to pretend further that . what is not is, as long as the Minister of Finance attempts to do that, Sir, we shall not have statesmanship from the government side because, Sir, they are asking for a blank cheque of $25 million which they do not need. The Minister of finance has again said that he does not intend any supplementary supply beyond a mere million or two. (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: Right I was ¢oing to come to that point. If by chance the markets should improve drastically or deteriorate drastically.why this House stands on call. We can be torether in a day or so, Sir, and if some honoutahle rentleman is away the House will carry on. We have carried on all session with about one-third of the members here. The House is on call. The PrelTl:ier is bound to be in Newfoundland from time to t:ll'le in the next year, chapging airplanes. The Minister of .Finance will be home when he is not in China or in Cert!lany or in Enp,land.

I understand he is off to Enp,land later this month now for a brief visit •. That is a good thing. MR. CROSRIE: Checkinr, the markets. JM- 10 MR. ROBF.PTS : Checkinr, the markets. t can see him down on Lombard Street now, Sir, where they ~o up to the Bank of EnP.lnnd and they set the price of gold at six - !-fR. ROWE(W. !-1 .): Petticoat Lane. MR. Rb!li::FTS: Petticoat Lane, is it? ~o, he will not be lookin~ for that. ~401

May 1, 1 Q7] Tape 1141 ~'R. CROSBTF.: llavinr, lunch with F:drlie7 ' IIR. ROBERTS: --·---- llavirir. lunch with Eddie7 T have never had lunch with F.ddie. I undrrstand in any event it is Philip who is runninr. the show over there and not Ed<lir. Is the government ~oinr. to give him his lifetime fishing license,hy the way? Anyway, rir.

Chairman, discussinr. this vital orinciple, the principle of public control over the budr,et, ,I could go back, Sir, I could go back to King Chafles and the ship money,and I will be quite in order, this principle of parliamentary control over the purse,back to the days when the kinr, appeared at the bar, the bar of the House and not any other bar,and t9ok five mer:1bers away at sword point. I do not intend to do that, Sir, but I do want to set straight the record. The Minister of Finance is misleading the House,inadvertently.

I do not think he is fooling any of the more intelligent ~entlemen opposite such as the member from Bonavista Sout!i. or the ::ie;;;b;:-. fro.:. St. John's North or St. John's South or that giant of the ffnancial community the gentleman from Burgeo, that wiz. The Minister of Finance would do better to have lunch with the gentleman from Bur~eo than with ~fr. De Rothschild in London. He would learn more from the gentleman from Burgeo. He would learn an inestimable amount of incalculable brnefit from thr gentle~an from Burgeo,and I commend that to him.

As a matter of fact I would even offer to stand the Minister of Finance the cost of the lunch at Marty's if he wish_ ·and I have no interest in Marty's. I declare new I do not have any interest in Marty's, Sir, no interest at all, no conflict of interest. MR. CROSBIE: Where is your affidavit. MR. ROBERTS: It is just down by 'Trip-a-cey·• on the "A-va-lon" Peninsula,that is where it is. So a~yway, ~r.:hairman, this is a serious amendment. The government time and time again said thev would not borrow without .T~ - 11 prior anprovnl nn<l here they nrc n~kinr for a $25 million authorization i,4t12

T:ipe 1341 for which no reason is p,iven other than fley:ibility. Well, flexibility is a good thing but this is beinr, very flexible indeed, this is hein~ far ~ore flexible than in my view one needs to be. The House can be called top.ether quickly. (My desk is fallinp. to pieces over here,by the way.) Tory times are hard times. MR. ROBERT~: Tory times are hard ti~es. A.~ HON. ?1F.l-lBER: That is pollution from the other side. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, it is pollution from the other side comin~ over here. The Minister of Finance's speeches have destroyed the ~lue, they have melted the glue and I may add - !-ffi..

CROSBIE: .We will not have that stag party now either. ~. ROBERTS: Well, I am glad. I have now achieved my purpose this T!!Orning. The honourable gentleman is not gEtting an invitation an:,way,but what he can do is walk down the pond some afternoon when it is not too calm, walk down Hogan's Pond - f.'F .• CRrlSBIE: I do not want to interrupt the honeymooners. M11 .• BO!IERTS: I was hoping to get some p~inters fror.i the honourable gentler.2n, some advice. He cannot give me any advice about walkitfg on the pond. MR. CROSBIE: MR.

ROBERTS: A~ HO~. ~~ER: He is able to do it but nonfl of us are.· (Inaudible) • I am glad he said so. His wife may or may not concur. But she better. MR. ROBERTS: Now there is a confltct of interest, Mr. Chairman. There is a conflict of interest for you, b~azen, bold. Anyway the amendment is a very statesmanlike approach, Sir, and I am shocked to the core of my democratic soul,s~eeped in the parliamentary tradition as I am.

Goin~ back to King Charles and the -hip money and Hampden and Pynn and all of these ~eo~le, Sir, who fought to establish this principle and the Minister of Finance has callously thrown it out the window with hypocrisy and mnlice aforethour,ht. I will stanc! by this amendment, Sir. I shall vote for it •. .If the 11;overnnent need to borrow more r.ioney than they have ii403 JM - 12

~ay 1, 1973 Tape 1341 authority to spend, Sir, let ther:i call the Jlouse together. I happen to think that is a r;ood princiole and because it was not done in the past means all the more that it should be done now. The government have brour;ht in a principle an<l let them stand by it. 1,That they have done now and if this ~mcndment is not accented by them and I have fears for its fate, if it is not accepted by them whar they will have done is brour.ht in a principle on day one and emasculated it on day two.

The principle never stood a chance, the principle of returninp to the House the rip;ht to approve borrowinp,. We are not being asked to approve borrowing. Sir, we are being asked to approve borrowing plus $25 million,and that is too ~uch, So ·I move the amendment in all 5eriousness. I think it is wrong. The minister has given no reason whatsoever for it, If the market conditions start to improve,this Hous~ can be brought to~ether very quickly and can be asked to ratify or not to ratify or approve or not to approve a decision to borrow money.

So I put the amendment forward and I commend it to all honourable gentleman. I think they should consult with their consciences and decide whether or not the government are going to be allowed to r,et away with this blatant hypocrisy. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is moved by the honourable Leader of the Opposition that the resolution be reduced by the sum of $20 million: On motion, amendment defeated. (On division). On motion, resolution ~rried. (On division), JM - 13 A bill, "An Act To Authorize The Raising nf Money By Way .._ Of Loan By The Province." .;404

May 1, 1973 Tape 1342(Morninr.) On motion that the committee rise, report having passed the resolution and recol'"ll!lend that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. STAGG: Hr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referre<l and have directed me to report having passed the resolution concerning the authorization of the raising by way of loan of the sum of Sl77 million and reco1111!1end that a bill be introduced to tive effect to the same and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, report received and adopted On 1110tion, resolution read a first and second time. On motion, a bill,"An Act To Authorize The Raising Of Money By Way Of Loan By The Province," read a first time. On motion bill read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the whole House, pre~ently, by leave. Motion, second reading of