Manitoba Hansard — 5 May 1992 (Sitting 59, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-59

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honoursble Denis c. Rocsn Spesker VOL. XLI No. 59 ·1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, MAY 5, 1992 Printed by the Office of the Q.-ns Printer, Province of Manltobtl ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Consti tuencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard , Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS,C iif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolse ley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossm ere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

2984 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 5, 1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lorraine Roels, Coreen Roulette, Hedwig Mueller and others urging the government to consider establishing an Office of the Children's Advocate independent of cabinet and reporting directly to the Legislative Assembly. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of AI Park, Lori Pichor, E.

Sandercock and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) consi der a one-year morat orium on the closur e on the Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba hu mbly sheweth that: WHERE AS the Dutch Elm Disease control program is of primary importance to the protection of the city's many elm trees; and

WHEREAS the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) himself stated that, "It is vital that we con tinue our active fight against Dutch Elm Disease in Manitoba ," and

WHEREAS despite that verbal commi tment, the gov ernment of Manitoba has cut its funding to the City's OED control progr am by half of the 19 90 level, a move that will jeo pardize the sur vival of Winnipeg's elm trees. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the government of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minis ter of Natural Resources to consider resto ring the full funding of the Dutch Elm Disease control program to the previous level of 19 90. *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member of Wellington (Ms. Barrett).

It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and It is the responsibility of the gove rnment to recog nize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by conside ring resto ring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. * (1 335) *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) , and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba , humbly sheweth that: The Brandon General Hospital is the major health care institution for southwestern Manitoba ; and The citizens of Brandon and southwestern Manitoba are deeply concer ned and disturbed about the do wnsizing of the hospital and view it as

2985 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 5, 19 92 a threat to the quality of health care in the region; and The Manitoba government has chosen not to review the current budget to ensure that cutbacks to vital services do not occu r; and The administration of the hosp ital has been forced to take drastic measures including the elimination of the Palliative Care Unit and gynecological wards, along with the layoff of over 30 staff, mainly licensed practical nurses, to cope with a funding shortfall of over $1 .3 million; and WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon General Hospital to avoid layoffs and cutbacks to vital services.

PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chair person of Committees): The Comm ittee of Supply has adopted a certain resol ution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek( Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the comm ittee be received. Motion agreed to. TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon. Ha rry Enns (Minis ter of Natu ral Resources): It is with considerable pleasure that I table the Annual Report, the year ending 19 90-91 , The Manitoba Habitat Heritage Corporati on. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Garden City Collegiate, twenty-six Grade 11 students under the direction of Roberta To pping. This school is located in the constit uency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). Also this afternoon, we have the Student Council of the Silver Heights Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Wallace Linton, the principal. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine).

Also this afternoon , from Acadia Junior High School, we have twenty-one Grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Wanda Dombek. This school is located in the constituency of the hon ou rable memb er for St. Norber t (Mr. Laurendeau). On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Economic Growth Private Sector Investment Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Yes, Mr. Speaker, the question is to the First Minister.

Last Friday, unfortu nately, statistics provided by Statistics Canada indicated that the GOP growth in Manitoba , as a basis of factor costs, was the last place in the whole country in terms of econom ic performance. Mr. Speaker, this is the first time since Walter Weir was defeated by Ed Schreyer in 19 69 that we were in last place, unfortunately. Mr. Speaker, the Premier has tried to create an illusion with the public that it is based on labour incomes in this province.

In spite of the fact that other provinces in Atlantic Canada had the same public sector wage freeze that the Premier implemented in this provi nce, the Premier has tried to create the illusion that this is the reason for the decline in domestic growth in this provi nce, being in last place. Mr. Speaker, if you really look at the numbers, it is really that the decline takes place in the private sector. Many of the factors of private sector investment in 199 1 declined dramatically.

I would ask the ques tion, in 19 91 , the private capital investment declined some 15 .3 percent, the largest decline of any province in the country-a gain, last place. I would ask the Premier why private sector investment declined $277 million in 19 91 , the largest decline of any province in Canada 7 Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we notice the priorities and the directions of the New Dem ocratic Par ty. They always have their directions in reverse, always heading backwards and always looking for where they can find the most negative.

The prince of darkness, as I have called him earlier, is at it over and over again, day after day. There is an

article in today's paper that he may or may not have read-Manitoba mood called upbeat.

May 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2986 They talk about, again, for the third time in a matter of two weeks, a new forecast coming out by another forecasti ng organization that is suggesting, once again, that in the coming years, in '92, '93 and '94, we will be in the top part of the provinces of this country in terms of economic growt h. I also su ggest to him that Stats Canada is suggesting that we will have the highest overall capital investment growth of any province in the country this year, in private and public capital investment.

We will have, in terms of manufacturing investment, the highest increase, 31 .7 percent in manufacturing capital investment. These are all the positive signs. These are built upon the solid base that we have formed in this province by virtue of the fiscal policies that have kept our taxes down for five straight budgets, that have kept our deficit down at levels, over all, that have been half of those under the Pawley administration, and all this during a period of time in which we have had a very, very severe recession. We have set the base. We have set the opportunity.

Obviously forecaste rs are suggesting that we will now see the kinds of fruits of our labour that all of us want to have, all of us, that is, except the Leader of the New Democratic Party, who only wants to see negative situations in this pro vince, who only wants to preach doom and gloom, who does not want to believe in the people of this province. We believe in the people of this pro vince, and we believe the growth that is being forecast will indeed come forward because of the policies that we have set in place. • (1 340) Manufacturing Investment Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, what we want this Premier to do is accept responsibility for his last-place performance in economic perform ance, primarily in the private secto r. On November 1, 19 90, the Premier said in this Chamber, again, Manitoba is to outshine the rest of the nation. That is the hea dline of the Business

section of this morning's Free Press. Of course, if it had been bad news, it would have been on page one. The Premier keeps pulling out these things from the Business

section , Mr. Speaker, but economic performance belies the Premier's words in this Chamber. A second ques tion-the Premi er has not answered why private sector investment was in last place. He has not answered the question, if you go down 15 percent, that is not a solid foundati on, as the Premier alleges. That is a decline of ou r foundat ion, Mr. Speaker. In fact, we are back to pre-'85 days in private sector investment. I think the Premier should be accountable for that point. Mr.

Speaker, the manufacturing investment in this prov ince declined 38.1 percent, the second worst performance in 19 91 in this very important private sector area of any other province in Canada. Only Nova Scotia was wor se. Can the Premier, as chair of the economic comm ittee of cabinet and as the person who is in charge of the economy of this pro vince, explain to the people of Manitoba why we were second last in this other very impor tant issue of economic performance? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Again, the Leader of the Opposition wants to concentrate on the past.

We did not put in place the Economic Development Board of Cabinet until last fall, late in the fall, after the year was already done, because we saw the things that had to be done. We put in place the budgetary conditi ons, no increase in taxes for five straight budgets under this administration, a deficit that has been kept much more under control than all of the other deficits in this country, including particularly New Democr atic pro vinces who are raising taxes and deficits right across the country .

The results of it are that this year, manufacturing capital investment is expected to be the highest increase of any province in the country. That is the kind of thing that is resulting from the policies that we have put in place. Economic Summit Implementation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): A final question-and the Premier again, looking at private sector indicators of the economy, a final indication is that residential construction declined in Manitoba by 40 percent, Mr. Speaker. Now, it is going to go up this year. If you are going to go up from three

2987 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 5, 19 92 houses to four ho uses, it is going to go up 33 percent, but it declined by 40 percent.[interjection] Well, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) will want to explain why Manitoba was in last place in terms of residential construction investment in 1 991 . Will the Premier now admit that they do not have a clue about what is going on in this economy? They are not getting the investment that they talked about in both the private and public sectors.

Will he do something posit ive like an econom ic summit of business, labour and government to get Manitobans working tog ether to get our economy on a good path, a positive path, in 199 2? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is dead wrong. The figures he quotes demo nstrate that we are getting the results and the performance that we were looking for.

Every single one of the forecasters is suggesting that we will be in the top three or four provinces in the country in terms of economic growth , in terms of private capital investment, in terms of public capital investment, in terms of housing starts, in terms of every one of those indicators, manufacturing capital investment, every single one of them. All of the forecaste rs are suggesting that in '92, '93, '94, we are going to be in the top half of the pro vinces in the country as a result of the things that we did in a difficult year.

Nobody suggests that 19 91 was not a tough year on our economy , as it was on econom ies everywhere in this world . The only place that fact has been lost is in the mind of the Leader of the Oppositi on, who does not know what is happening anywhere in the wo rld. He has his head in the sand, and he is looking at what is in his own politica l interest to look at. We are looking at what is in the best interests of the people of Manitoba. .. (1 345) Mining Communities Government Initiatives Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, maybe the Premier (Mr. Filmon) should take that message to Snow Lake.

On Sunday afternoon , I attended a meeting with hundreds of other people from the communi ty of Snow Lake, as they listened to their own obituary. This is the third mining commu nity in northern Manitoba who has to listen to their own obituary and then read it in the paper the next day, while this minister was in charge. Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Mineral Resources corpora tion, a Crown corporation, has some $24 million in the bank. Can the Minister of Energy and Mines or the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) explain to the people of Snow Lake why this government has been so indifferent, has refused to act in the interests of protecting the commu nity and the jobs of those 480 families who are now dispossessed in Snow Lake? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I want to first of all express the concern for the individuals who are impacted when these kinds of things happen dealing with a mining communi ty. That is why this government took a very proactive posit ion and introduced one of the best mining incentive programs in this country.

We introduced an explor ation incentive program that is not matched anywhere in this country, so that the private sector could come forward , along with the mineral resou rces explora tion program of gove rnment, to find those resources that are there, to bring new life to commu nities such as Snow Lake. What I would ask the member is: Why, in his term of go vernment, did they not introduce something? They put us in the worst position in this country, Mr. Speaker, as far as taxes are concerned in the mining industry. Mr.Storle: ... dollars in Leaf Rapids, in Snow Lake and in Flin Aon. Mr.

Speaker, the hypo crisy of this minister, to stand up and say the Mineral Exploration Incentive Program, which was introduced in 19 91 , was going to be of any help. Hudso n's Bay Mining and Smelting could not take advantage of the program . They were excluded. I raised it with this minister. Mr. Speaker, why has this govern ment been so indifferent to the fate of mining commun ities in northern Manitoba? What are the Minister of Energy and Mines, the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey) going to do to protect these people and secure their future? Mr.

Downey: Again, the member wants to play politics with the lives of the people of Snow Lake, rather than deal genuinely with the concerns of the mining industry. There is, Mr. Speaker, an extended explora tion budget being put in place by HBM&S for that

May 5, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2988 communi ty. Some $4.5 million will be spent this year in the exploration field. As well, Mr. Speaker, this gov ernment has put a program in place that will encourage explor ation. Mining companies like HBM&S will be able to write off 15 0 percent of their exploration expenses against their income. That is available to HBM&S. Exploration Mr. Jerry Storie {FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, the gove rnment has known about this for at least a year and perhaps two.

As much as two years ago, I was asking the then Minister of Energy and Mines to double the exploration budget of Manitoba Mineral Resources to prevent this kind of tragedy. My question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines, the minister responsible for MMR. Why has the governm ent refused the pleas of the commu nity and myself to increase the exploration budget as much as two or three years ago to prevent the closure today because of a lack of ore? Hon. James Downey {Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speak er, the re ha s been approximat ely $30 million expended in that area over the last 1 0 years to find new orebodi es. We have not reduced the expenditures. In fact, the expenditures have been increased by HBM&S to find new reserves. We have put in place tax policies that are exceptional ly good for the searching of new mineral deposits. 1 can say, Mr. Speaker, why did the go vernment, of which he sat as the minister, not-why were those program s not in place five years ago and six and seven years ago to encour age investment? [interjection] No, they were not.

In fact, the mining industry believed that the New Democratic Party policies were still in place and that we wanted to participate in 50 percent of every mine that was developed in this country. That is not the case. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, we- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has already used his question and his two supplementary question s. * (1 350) Social Assistance Food Allowance Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, for days , we have been hearing the bad economic forecasts and the forecasts about the very low quality of education that is available to our children from coast to coast in this country. It is time to put a very human face on the whole issue of how people are sur viving in Manitoba . Winnipeg Harvest indicates that they have had a · 111 percent increase in the number of households turning to food bank s . Unfortunat ely, their donations of food have only increased by 65 percent.

We have had an increase in volunteer hours, a recognition of the participatory nature of Manitoba, because we have seen an increase of 11 2 percent. We have a Family Services minister who has before us in this House a bill which is going to reduce the benefit for food that people are going to receive. Mr. Speaker, infants on a prov incial payment scale will receive $83.90. At present, they are receiving $1 52 per month. Will the minister explain to this House why this gove rnment is going to get a cash revenue increase as a result of this new system of $5.6 million? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, much of whatthe member has put on the record is in error. The bill before the House, Bill70, is to create the same entrance requirements across this provi nce to access social allowances and to indicate that there will be a standardized level of social allowances. That is what the bill is intended to do, and we look forward to members entering the debate on 8111 70.

The government, the department is currently meeting with members of the SARC commi ttee, which has members from MAUM, UMM and the City of Winnipeg-brought a report before gove rnment as a result of hearings and discussions that they had, calling on the gov ernment to do two things and to make access to social allowances equal across the prov ince and to sta ndardize the rates. That is what the bill is going to do. We are currently meetin g with the SARC comm ittee to work out a lot of the other details that will be put in place after Bill 70 is passed.

2989 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA May 5, 19 92 Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, 89 percent of all social assistance recipients live in Winnipeg. Winnipeg has considerab ly higher assistance rates for food than does the rest of the province of Manitoba, 11 percent.

Will the minister explain why he is accepting as his level playing field, the level playing field of 11 percent of the social assistance recipients and not the level playing field of 89 percent of the social assistance recipients, resulting in for a family of one adult and one infant and one five-year-old child, $1 02.50 less a month for food , $1 ,230 a year Jess for foo d? Mr. Gllle shammer: Mr.

Speak er, again the member, I think, needs to take an accurate look at the legislation that is before the House to see what in fact it does, and that is to create one standard rate across the province and to set the same entrance requirements for people wishing to access social allowances. The rates will be set on an annual basis. At the current time, the department is involved with members of the SARC commi ttee looking at many details that have to be dealt with prior to this legislation being put into force .

So on the question of rates, I think it is premature for the member to be saying that the rate is this level or that level. Those points are points of discussion that are currently going on with the SARC comm ittee. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, what I am quoting are the rates set by the province and the city as of March 20, 199 2. There has been no rate change since that time. The minister, on April 13 , 199 2, admits that some municipalities have higher rates.

Will he now admit that Winnipeg, with 89 percent of the social assis tance reci pients, is the municipality with the higher rate, and will he now commit that it is that higher rate for food which will become the standard in the prov ince of Manitoba? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I say again, the legislation is still before the House. The legislation will come into force probably some time in 19 92 or 19 93. The actual rates will be determined, and the details will be worked out between the department and the members of the SARC committee.

These negotiations and discussions are still going on. .. (1 355) Mining Community Reserve Fund Snow Lake, Manitoba Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier, who does not seem to want to bothe r himself with the dirty details of 1 ,500 people losing their jobs, their homes and their commu nity. The Premier and this go vernment are in charge of the Mining Commu nity Reserve Fund which has some $1 0 million at least at its dispos al.

Will the First Minister today agree to commit those fu nds and more, if necess ary, to the 480 households, many of whom are going to be asked to move their homes and their posse ssions? Will he co mmi t today to pr ovide supp or t in the neighbou rhood of $15, 000 to $25,000, which it would take for each person to relocate ? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member for Flin Flon knows full well that his commen ts are not accurate.

The fact of the matter is, this government, because it wanted to increase investment in exploration and develo pment, has brought in a series of programs that are designed to do precisely that. For the first time in 20 years, we are seeing massive increases in exploration drilling in this prov ince in northern Manitob a. It goes all the way back to the Schreyer gove rnment of the 19 70s, when various programs were put in place that essentially confiscated mining revenues and mining properties from the people who were there.

As a result, wholesale companies that had been exploring in northern Manitoba just withdrew and left from this province and never came back for 20 years, until just this last year, as a result of the Mineral Exploration Incentive Program and the further policies of this budget. He presided over a government and over a mines department that essentially kept out explor ation and development from the private sector, which is what killed the opportunities for Snow Lake and every other mining communi ty to survive in northern Manitoba. It is on his head that this, in fact, rests, Mr. Speaker.

It is on his head that all of this policy has resulted in the people in Snow Lake having difficulties. This government has put $55 million into the renovation and upgrade of Flin Flon, the smelter there, to preserve-(interjection] Mr. Speaker, none

May 5, 19 92 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2990 of this was done under New Dem oc rati c governments. New Demo cratic governm ents would not risk a nickel in terms of support for these mining commu nities and would not put in place policies that would encourage explor ation and development. Unfortunate ly, the people in those communi ties are paying the price as a result of their ignorance and of their bad policies. Mining Communities Employment Retraining Program Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, I can only say there he goes again, misleading the Legislature and the people ....

In 19 88, this government, the NDP gover nment, invested some $1 7.7 million- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Flin Flon this is not a time for debate. Kindly put your question, please. Point of Order Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, on a point of or der, is there no rule to protect the people of Manitoba from the kind of misinformation this- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of or der. *** Mr. Speaker: The honour able member for Flin Flon, kindly put your question, please. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Speaker, since this minister took over, this First Minister (Mr. Filmon) , there are one thousand- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Kindly put your question, please. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Speaker, will the First Minister now commit to using the offices of the Department of Education and Training, the resou rces at the disposal of the Minister of Energy and Mines to provide training and retraining opportu nities for the 1 ,000 people who have already lost their jobs in the mining industry since this First Minister became Premier, and the 600 people who we learned on Sunday are likely to lose their jobs by 19 94 in the mining industry? Will he begin a training program now, commit to a training program for these people- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. * (14 00) Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, again, it is unfortunate that these kinds ofthings happen in mining commu nities. That is why we have put in program s and initiatives so that we can stem this kind of thing from taking place. New orebodies being found means new job opportu nities. We have, some four months ago, Mr. Speaker, put in place a Worker Adjustment Comm ittee with government, working with those commun ities to help them, to assist them.

There is the Mining Reserve Fund that the member refers to, that we have used in the past to assist when these kinds of unfortu nate difficulties come forward . Again, Mr. Speaker, let me re-emphasize what we have said. There is an expansion of resource di scovery activity taking place in those commu nities. There will be job opportu nities with the upgrading of the smelter in that whole area. Again, we are doing all we can to encourage new mining activity to take place in northern Manito ba. Equity Insurance Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr.

Speaker, it becomes increasingly obviou s this minister does not know what is going on. Mr. Speaker: Questio n. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, I will give the Minister of Energy and Mines and the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) , if he cares to dirty his hands on this issue of 480 people- Mr. Speaker: The question is? Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, some time ago, I offered the Minister of Energy and Mines an opportu nity to be positive .

Can the minister today tell us whether he will reconsider and initiate imme diately a plan to estab lish an equ ity in sur ance prog ram for home owner s and small bu sin esses in single-industry towns in northern Manito ba, so that families will not be faced with this kind of crisis again? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speake r, again, one has to be concerned about the individuals who have invested in their homes and their busin esses in the single-mining industries. The best way to preserve the value of their homes and their commun ities is to find new oreb odies.

2991 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 5, 19 92 I cannot understand why the member did not, in his term of off ice, introduce policies that would help that happen. Mr. Speaker, what they did was conti nue to raise the taxes that put in disincentives. What I do not want to do, Mr. Speaker, is create false expectations in valuations of houses or busi nesses by the introduction of government money or program ming.

We do have to assist those people when it is inevitable that there is no longer any opportunity tor them, bu t let us find an op portu nity to continue through wha t has traditionally been the mining industry. Racism Investigations Pollee Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) or the First Minister. Last year, after a $3-million study and years of review, two respected judges recommended that a special investigatio n unit be set up to investigate allegations regarding incidents involving the police.

Now, after bringing a judge to review the Pollock matter, after having the RCMP review the city of Winnipeg police and bringing in the RCMP for other ma tte rs, we st ill have no action on this recommendation. Will the government stop procras tinating and establish such a u nit, as recommended in this report, so that when events occur, as did occur in the city of Winnipeg this weekend, an investigation unit can go into effect immediately to deal with the pro blem? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Ju stice minister. Mr.

Chomlak: My supplementary is along the same question, Mr. Speaker. There is a very good reason for requiring such an investigation unit. What if this happened with the RCMP? Who would the minister call in then? As I understand, the minister may be calling in the RCMP to deal with the Winnipeg instance. What if it were to happen with the RCMP? Who would they call in then? Mr. Fllmon: I will take that question as notice as well on behalf of the Minis ter of Justice (Mr. McCrae). Mr.

Chomlak: My final supplementary, I would urge that the minister bring it to the Justice minister's attention at the first instance, because we have been waiting 10 months tor this recomme ndation. We have gone throu gh five or six incidents that could have been dealt with by this investigation unit. Economic Growth Government Polley Performance Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, in the four years since this gove rnment came to power, we have lost the equivalent of 50,000 people in this pro vince, we are 1Oth out of 1 0 in national wealth, we have lost the equivalent of $300 million in retail trade and $91 million in co mmercial investment. I would like to ask the Minister of Industry and Trade a very simp le qu est ion. When this gove rnment came to pow er, we were at one level. Since then, the country has slipped into recession , but this province has slipped much further. We are now 1Oth out of 10 . How does the Minister for Industry and Trade explain this? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism) : At the out set, I do not accept most of the honourable member's

preamble. He picks one particular statistic and generalizes it to all aspects of the econom y. I think for somebody who is showing such a great deal of interest in econom ic performance indicators, I would encourage him to read all 12 or 13 of them that are prepared by seven different agencies, and he will see how we have fared in ot her areas, in areas like unem ployment as it relates within Canada.

We willingly admit we are not satisfied with where the percentage is, but within Canada, we are faring very well, and if you go through the list of traditional economic indicators, you will find that Manitoba is faring very well in many areas as it related to other provinces and Canada. In terms of the future, Mr. Speaker, which I am sure we are all looking toward the future of Manitoba, the economic indicators show significant strength in manufacturing investment, that we will lead the nation in manufacturing investment, in private investment, in all kinds of economic indicators.

I would encourage the honourable member to take the time to read all indicators in some detail. Mr. Alcock: Well, it just so happens that I do read those indicators, and in 11 out of 15 , this province has done worse than the rest of this country, worse not better, in 11 out of 15 indicators that are reported on monthly, Mr. Speaker.

May 5, 19 92 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2992 My question for the minister is this: How does he explain the fact that this province is doing so poorly? Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness {Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, certainly the Minister of Industry and Trade can answer the question . The question has been the same day after day. I would refer you to Beauchesne 409, point (8): "A question that has previously been answered ought not to be asked again." Furthermore, Mr.

Speaker, I would refer you to Beauchesne 409.(3) and I quote: "The question ought to seek information and, therefore , cannot be based upon a hypothesis, cannot seek an opinion, either legal or ot herwise, and must not suggest its own answer, be argumentative" -and this is the point I em phasize -"be ar gume nta tive or mak e representations." Mr. Speaker, we can go through this day in, day out. There can be general questions, and we can debate so-called statements of fact, but by these rules, I say the question that is put over and over again asking for a generalized answer is out of orde r. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Speaker, on the same point of orde r, I can understand why the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) is so embarrassed by this question, but if you check the record today, you will find that the question I asked the second time was different from the question I asked the first time, and I believe that as a member in this House, I have the right to question the policies of this government, and I shall con tinue to do so. If they cannot explain why their policies are failing, that is their pro blem, not mine. Mr. Steve Ashton {Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on the point of or der, I think the gove rnment House leader is correct on one point. Beauchesne is very clear. A minister may decline to answer a question without stating the reason for refusing, and insistence on an answer is out of or der, with no debate being allowed. Indeed, we can understand why the gove rnment may not wish to answer this question.

It is obviously very embarrassing to them to be shown day after day to be 10 th out of 10 economically, but on the other point raised by the minister, I would suggest to him that if he wishes to get Question Period back to the normal way of functio ning, he might ask his minister to just simply answer the question-why are we 10 th out of 10 ? Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader, it has been the practice here in Manitoba that Beauc hesne's 409.( 8)-a qu estion that has previously been answered and ought not to be asked again-generally has been applied to a same sitting day. This rule has been very relaxed for previous sittings of the House. The guidelines that were distributed to members quite clearly spell out that a question must not repeat an earlier question which was answered or to which an answer was refused at that sitting.

I believe the honourable member's second question was not repetitive of his first question, therefore the honourable member's question was in or der. * (14 10 ) Mr. Stefanson: Once again, I believe I have to correct the honourab le member's

preamble in terms of performance indicators and where Manitoba stands today. Out of the 11 traditional performance indicators, Mr.

Speaker, I want to quickly walk throu gh them for the benefit of the honourab le member for Osborne, that in the manufacturing sector performance, in employment, we are above Canada; in capital investment, we are above Canada; in business bankruptcies in terms of the positive side having the least in the nation, we are above Canada; in terms of economic growth , we are above Canada ; in terms of unemployment rates, we are above Canada; in terms of housing starts, we are above Canada; in terms of retail sales, we are above Canada. Mr.

Speaker, the record speaks for itself today in terms of the econom ic indicators where Manitoba is positio ned. Economic Growth Full-Time Employment Mr. Reg Alcock {Osborne): Mr. Speaker, the Finance mini ster's predictions are not reality. Reality is that we have lost the equivalent of 26,000 full-time jobs in this pro vince. I would like to ask a question to the Minister of Labou r, a very simple question to the Minister of Labour. How does he account for the fact that we have lost, under this gove rnment, the four years that

2993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 5, 19 92 this government has been in power, the equivalent of 26,000 full-time jobs in this provi nce? Hon. Darren Praznlk {Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I think if the member would wake up and look at the fact that we are going through a very difficult recession, as my colleagues in this House have ans wered the memb er on numer ous occ asions, and as the member kno ws, we are going through tremendous restructuring of our economy. I am sure the member would agree-{interjection] Well, the member from his seat talks about last place.

The member still has not recogn ized, I think, what has happened in the agricultural commu nity, what that has meant to income in our pro vince. He has not recog nized changes. We have seen a debate go on here today about the mining industry, 20 years of bad mining policy-and now we are reaping the benefits of that in this province . Mr. Speaker, it takes time, as the member will acknowledge, to get the provi nce onto the right course, and that is what is happening now. Point of Order Mr. Jerry Storie {Filn Flon): Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, the Minister of Labou r conti nues to put false information on the record. Mr. Speaker, the legislation the province oper ates under was put in place by the Lyon government in 19 78. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of or der. It is a dispute over the facts. Public Utilities Lock-Off Statistics Mr. Jim Maloway {Elmwood): My question is to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Mr. Speaker, on June 25, '91 , on page 3841 of Hansard, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province said, and I quote: • ...

I want the NDP to save $1 0 a month for every senior in this building by passing Bi11 44."-which was the gas disconnection bill. Yeste rday, Mr. Speak er, the Minis ter of Consumer and Corporate Affairs claimed that 3,000 people would have their gas cut off this year. Could the minister tell this House how she arrived at this figure and how many people were cut off last year? Hon. Linda Mcintosh {Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do not have the exact number for last year. As you recall, last year the legislation was passed and brought into effect midsummer.

The Centra Gas utility was able to then proceed with lock offs in the later part of the summer. This is the first summer we will have an entire summer to go through. Beginning on May 15 , lock offs can occur. Last season , there were a fair nu mber of comm ercial accounts that were shut off. We are anticipating this year, based upon projections that were informed to me by my department, that there will be in the neighbourhood of about 3,000 this year. I can check on the exact number for last year and give it to the member later. Mr. Maloway: last year, Mr.

Speaker, there were 18 6 commercial and industrial lock offs and 409 residential which is a total of 595. The minister has suggested 3,000 this year. That- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. The honourable member for Elmwood, kindly put your question now, please. Mr. Maloway: The question to the minister is: Why is there a 500 percent increase in lock offs this year, based on her statement in the House yesterday? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Speaker, I am constantly surprised at the members who go to the trouble to look up the statistics before they come to the House and then ask the question as if they did not have the statistics. That is the kind of game playing I do not think we need when we are trying to come to accurate and carefully thought out decisions. I do not need to bring the figures back to the member, I believe, at this point, since he already looked them up before he came into the House.

I can indicate that last year, as I have already indicated, we were not able to have a full season of Jock off to enable consumers to not be penalized by having to pay delinquent accounts of those who choose not to pay. We will have a full season this year, beginning on May 15 , and the figure given to me by the department is they are anticipating a ten-fold increase of approximately 3,000 Jock offs this summer. Mr. Maloway: That is at odds with what the gas company vice-president tells us, and that is- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Question, please.

May 5, 19 92 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA 2994 Customer Refunds Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My supplementary to the minister is: When will she be requesting the refunds that her Premier promised last year? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): The member opposite knows full well how the legislation is written. He was very much a part of the discussions that went on at the time the legislation came in.

The member knows full well that the savings that will come to people will come to them by way of bills that will not escalate at the rate they were predicted to escalate prior to this legislation-good legislation which has the supp ort of con sumers, good legislation which has the support of industry. He knows the answers to the questions that he has been asking here to day. Manitoba Intercultural Council AnUraclsm Recommendations Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Premier.

This gove rnmen t has given lip service to multiculturalism, and tod ay, later on this afternoon, there is going to be a rally at City Hall regarding racism. Nowhere else has this government had such a failure in trying to address racism in the province of Manitoba. MIC has brought forward a report on com batting racism . On numer ous occas ions, I have asked the question- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Deputy Premier is, the government asked the MIC to come up with a report on com batting racism.

The que stion is: Why has this governmen t not implemented, in particular, two resolutions put forward from the MIC report, one dealing with the crosscultu ral awareness for elected offi cials, anot her dealing with the Manitoba Human Rights Commission, giving it the additionai- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier) : Mr. Speaker, let me first of all say that this gov ernment is proud of its record and the work that it has done in the whole area of multiculturalism and the work activities within that portf olio.

As far as the details are conce rned, I will take the question as notice for my colleague, the minister respon sible. * (1 420) Multicultural Legislation Introduction Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question would be to the Deputy Premier. This go vernment made a comm itment to the multicultural act. I would ask the Deputy Premier when he anticipates that legislation being brought forward to the Chamber. It is a substantial piece of legislation. Are we going to be receiving it this session? Are we not going to be receiving it this session?

When in fact are we going to be having that legislation brought forwa rd? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier) : Mr. Speaker, unlike the Liberal Party, there has been a lo t of work done in consu ltation with the commu nities through my colleague, the minister, and I am anticipating the legislation to be presented soon . Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I question, in terms of the Deputy Premier, what he said. In contact with- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Order, please. Mr. Lamoureux: My ques tion to the Depu ty Premier is-he did not answer.

The question is: Is the govern ment going to be bringing forward the multicultural act, as promised in their throne speech this session ? Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that as far as the specifics of the question are concerned, again, I will take it as notice for my colleague, the minister respon sible. Annual Water and Waste Water School Government Support Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I think that we would all agree that money spent in preventing envir onmen tal contami nation is preferred to cost for cleanup.

For 38 years, there has been an Annual Water and Waste Water School to try to ensure that this happens, and it has been pro viding training for operators so that they are competent in managing sewers and water treatment plants. Given the environm ental probl ems associated with poor sewage management, I would like to ask the minister why his department is planning to eliminate its support for this school , and does it have an alternative or replacement program in mind.

2995 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 5, 19 92 Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I do not think that is quite an accurate reflection of where we are headed with this program because we do want to support training and upgrading for operat ors, but we want to make sure that we are able to provide the most accurate and up-to-date informat ion. The concern the member raises I believe will be dealt with. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Committee Changes Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock) , that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows : Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) for St. James (Mr. Edwards). (Agreed] Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources for the 1 0 a.m . May 5 sitting be amended as follows : the member for Turtle Mounta in (Mr. Rose) forthe member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay). (Agreed) I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs.

Render), that the composition of the Standing Comm itte e on Pub lic Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows : the member for Mo rris (Mr. Man ness) for the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) ; the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner). [Agreed] Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowc huk), that the composition of the Standing Com mitte e on Pub lic Utilities and Na tural Resources be amended as follows: Swan River (Ms. Wowc huk) for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) ; Ain Flon (Mr. Sto rie) for Thompson (Mr. Ashto n).

That is for Tuesday , May 5, at 8 p.m. [Agreed) Nonpolitical Statement Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if I might have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? (Agreed] Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to Lorna and Chris Hamblin, who farm in the Morris area and who were recently presented with the Outstanding Young Farmers Award for the mid-Canada region. The purpose of the Outstanding Young Farmers Program is to recognize Canadian producers who do outsta nding work in the agricultural industry.

Farmers nomi nated for the award are judged on their individual operations, conservation efforts, production history, the ir invol vemen t in the commu nity, as well as financial and management practices. Lorna and Chris farm about 2,500 acres in the constitu ency of Emerson, close to Morris, with Lome's bro ther and his wife. It is a family operation and also includes a select seed business. As well, the couple is heavily involved with agricultural mark eti ng clubs, Man itoba Seed Growe rs' Association , and Ag in the Classroom.

This couple has been very involved in encouraging the establishment of legislation in regard to agriculture and promoting agriculture in our classrooms in Manitoba. They are also members of the Manitoba Seed Growers' Associati on, Risk Area 12 producers, and those of who are involved in agriculture in the Red River Valley know of the work that Lorna Hamblin and many of the farmers in that area have done to create some equity in their soil classifications in this area-Ag Expo, Valley Ag Society and many other organizations that they are involved in. If that is not enough, Mr.

Speaker, Lorna and Chris still find time to take

part in the Manitoba Curling Association and to help out with activities of the local Cubs and the Beaver clubs for their three young boys. Mr. Hamblin has a degr ee in agricultural economics, while Mrs. Hamblin is a graduate in Home Econom ics, and they have put togeth er quite an effective business operat ion. I think, Mr. Speaker, you will agree, Lorna and Chris Hamblin will be representing the mid-Canada region this fall in Regina along with winners from other parts of Canada.

I would ask that all members in this Legislature join with me to pay tribute and to recognize and congra tulate the Hamblins on their efforts. Committee Change Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll) : I have a substitution for a committee. I wish to rescind the change that I made, the member for Morris (Mr. Manness) for the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) . Instead, I want the member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummi ngs) for the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Do wney). (Agreed)

May 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2996 A (1 430) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you ascertain whether or not there is a willingness to waive private members' hour? Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? Leave? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No, leave is denied. Mr. Manness: I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummin gs), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Bob Rose): Order, please. Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to or der. This afternoon this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of Health. When the comm ittee last sat it had been considering item 5.(a)( 1) Administration Salaries on page 87 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass ? Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have a few questions, and I am hoping some of the information which was requested yesterday, we can get that today if it is pos sible. If not today, then tomorrow or by Friday, that should be all right.

My next question is in terms of last year in Health Estimates we discussed the issue of prostrate biopsies guided by ultraso und, and Dr. Krahn has met with the Manitoba Health Services Commission and so far they have been unable to resolve that issue. We discussed this issue last year and we just wanted to resolve this problem because the cost of the ultrasound-guided biopsies is less expensive compared with other methods, and the explanation has been provided to the He alth Servi ces Comm ission by Dr. Krahn and his associates.

I would seek some clarification as to where his request is in terms of getting funding for the prostrate biopsy which is guided by the ultrasound technique. Also, I unde rstand the ultrasound advisory commi ttee has also met with Dr. Krahn and it seems that they have been unable to resolve some of the issues, and I would like to know from the minister's office what, if anything, they are going to do with this outst anding issue. Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : We have asked the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation to take a look at the ultrasound biopsy procedure to give us the best indication of its effectiveness and its efficacy. In anticipation of my honourable friend's next question, I cannot get an answer as to when we expect them to give us some consultation or give us some advice, but that is where consider ation of that issue is right now. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Chairperson , in the Chair) Mr. Cheema: The last letter I have is dated February 6, and the letter is written by Dr.

Krahn to Bob Vandewater who is the chair of the board of the Health Services Comm ission, and in that letter Dr. Krahn has explained some of the difficulties he is experiencing. I am willing to share that letter with the minister's office and his staff to make sure that they are well aware of the situation, and I think that may help to some extent to solve this outst anding issue. Mr. Orchard: Yes, I think that correspondence was with the commission board, I believe.

Yes, and we are attempting to come up with some sense of direction on that issue, and as I say, have asked the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation to give us some assessment. Okay? A (1 440) Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, one further issue in terms of the comm ittees and com missions and votes and everything else that the minister's office has established as of 19 88. Can the minister provide us with a list of all the committees and all

2997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 5, 19 92 the studies undertaken by the Department of Health as of 198 8? I just want to know how much the department has been-you know , what issues they have worked on. I think that will be helpful for us to get some knowledge of some of the issues. I am not going to use it in any negative way. That will be helpful for us to really well inform ourselves about how the policies are going to be brought forward . I just want the minister to feel comfortable with that kind of request. It is not something very intrusive.

It is simply basically letting us know the issues and some of the concerns the Department of Health has, and some of the statistics they have developed . Specifically, we do have the reports from the health policy analysis the minister shared with us. The chairperson of the board also offered to us that if we want any specific informat ion, as long as it is not confidential they will be able to share with us. I think that is very positi ve.

But I just wanted a full list of all the studies and comm ittees and comm issions, starting with the Health Advisory Network to the Urban Hospital Council, the num ber of the groups in the Urban Hospital Council, and the other advisory comm ittees in terms of the nursing education , the medical education, the college of medicine, the college of nursing, the physiotherapy associati on, in terms of speech pathology association . Anything that the minister has set up advisory commi ttees on at all levels of the health care department. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I presented earlier on in Estimates some of that, but we will revisit that and pull that list back togeth er again. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deput y Chairper son , I appreciate the minister's willingness to be helpful to get our knowledge updated. I work with a mission still of hope and the hope to achieve good things, so I am sure we will achieve something here. I have a letter from one of my constitu ents.

She has a lot of difficulties in terms of Pharmacare this year, a 1 0 percent increase in 19 92, and she is concerned about the younger disabled and chronically ill patients who are, for example, diabetics and their Pharmacare prescription costs have gone up. They are having a lot of difficulties, and they find themselves in a situation where they think that they should be treated at par with the seniors in terms of the Pharmacare program , because their funds which they use for the medicare system are quite significant. I will share the copy of the letter I have received from my cons tituent.

She is also leading a group of individuals who are diabetic and also have a significant impairment in terms of their abilit y to perform some of the functions. I do not want to put her name on the record , but certainly I will share the letter with the minister, and that will give some indication. They are also requesting this issue not to be treated on a political base, but on a nonconfrontational basis and resolve the outsta nding issue and I will share the copy of the letter with the minister's office also.

I am almost out of my letters that I have, you know, individual-! have asked the minister today about some of the issues, and I will certainly pass the rest of the time for the member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson , when I receive the letter I will have the department investigate and provide an answer to my honourable friend. Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns) : First of all, let me indicate that I hope that the member for The Maples (Mr.

Cheema) has better luck with his request for a complete list of all studies and comm ittees and reviews by this governmen t than I did. I do not know if the member for The Maples recalls that I did ask for that information , and I was qu ite hopefu l, in fact, based on the minister's response , that he was genuinely going to provide that list. I fully expected that he was taking my request seriously and would treat it that way.

Instead, the member for The Maples might recall he provided us with his usual list that he proceeded to read on the record: the list of Urban Hospital Council working groups, and the list of Health Advisory Network Studies. He did not table for us the comple te list of studies, working groups, consultation teams, reviews, task forces, and so on which clearly number in the hundreds. I am sure it is an embarrassment to the minister at this point to provide us with that informati on.

I hope the member for The Maples has luck, and that we will all get that information, but he is clearly not willing to provide it to me. Maybe the better worki ng relationship between the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema) and the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) will produce better results, and I hope so. But I do not think we are going to have much luck in terms of that end of things. I say it is probably an

May 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2998 embarrassment to the minister because, in fact, as he knows from people close to this go vernment, close to the Conservative Party, he is now receiving fairly substantial constructive advice, constructive criticism, that there be some effort to get a handle on the number of studies and some efforts made to consolidate the reviews, task forces, and studies.

In fact, I will refer specifically, since the minister has sort of raised his eyebrows at this mention, to the February minutes of the Ministerial Council of Nursing Education, which we have referred to in the past as relevant to the resignation of Trevor Anderson as chair of that comm ittee and his concerns expressed about commun ication between the ministry and the council.

That memo, as the minister knows, also references the number of studies that this gove rnment is involved in and makes a recom mendatio n; that is, the chair makes a recomm endation , the former chair, the Conserva tive, whom I believe to be a Conservative supporter or certainly a person closely associated with the Conservative Party, Trevor Anderson , who suggested that there be a consolidation of st udies, and some handle on all of this work being done for which there appears to be no end in sight.

I think it is also appropriate to reference at this point the words of advice of another Conservative supporter, also referenced in the Legislature, that of Jack Purdy, who clearly has, on a number of occ asions, pointed to problems in the department, the lack of object ive, scientific, wise input into the decision-making process, which has resulted in such fool ish decisions as the elimination of an important part of a preventative progr am, that being the children's dental health progr am . It is clear, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that we have a number of people now speaking up about this whole issue of studies and, in fact, what appears to be one giant study session on the part of the Minister of Health. In my view, that is having some serious, damaging conseq uences for health care reform . In many ways, it is dem oral izing. People have commented time and time again of late that they are so caught up and so busy doing these studies with no sense of the government ever listening to their recommendations, that they wonder if it is all worth it.

They wonder if the system has not become immobilized and incapable of the kind of significant change that is required as part of our health care reform agenda, as a result of this minister's busy, make-work exercise. Certainly, I want it to be clear, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that since the minister is wont to twist words around and distort commen ts, this is by no means a comment, a questioning of the input and advice that the government is receiving from numerous, too numerous to mention, individuals and groups involved in some form or anot her on a gove rnment working group or task force or review or commi ssion or study session.

All of their inputs, from whatever party they come from, whatever asso ciation they have, whatever link they have in terms of the health care system is very important and should be treated seriously, and I worry for the health care system because that advice, coming from all directions and all parts of our commu nity is not being seriously included and acted upon. .. (1 450) The minister has talked a lot about health care reform.

I am trying to find in this budget-and we are now on this whole issue of hospitals and commu nity health services-a sense from the detailed print Estimates about a shifted emphasis from hospitals to communi ty health services. I had asked last night for an indication of the breakdown of the increase for commu nity health facilities and the minister indicated $750,000 increase.

I would like to back up one step and ask where the funding for commu nity health services is, in what line that shows up, and what is the breakdown, what is the expenditure by this gover nment of dollars to commu nity health centres or facilities for the past three years?-eo we have some way of comparing expenditure in this area to expenditures for hospitals as we have been talking about for a considerable period of time over the last little while. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I apologize, I was reading a memo from staff and I missed just the very last part of the question.

I have the commu nity health centre part of the question, but immediately after that? Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I would like to have the actual expenditure over the last three years for commun ity health centres. The minister has provided us with the figure for hospitals, which may or may not include commu nity health centres. I would like the breakdown for commu nity health centres for the last three years and then the breakdown of the $750,000 increase for this year. Mr. Orchard: Rrst of all, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, commu nity health centres are funded under the

2999 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANIT OBA May 5, 19 92 Hospital line so that they are inclusive of the $946-million budget.

As I indicated, there is roughly a $740,000, $738,000, somewhere in there, increase for this year, and that is to provide for salary increases under the existing contract with the Manitoba Nurses' Union and to provide them with the same bargaining mandate, because they are part of the bargaining mandate for the other contracts, because some of their employees are within the same bargaining units whose contracts are coming to an end this year and for supplies is the break down on-it is salary adj us tment, anticipated funding of salaried settlements and supplies. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, not that I want to get into a-because I do not know whether we are going to finish Estimates this month, but you know- Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Just before you get into that, what about the globa l expenditure for commun ity health centres? Mr. Orchard: I do not have that global for the last three years, but we will get that informa tion. I am deeply troubled with my honourable friend's observation about our process of study and consult ation.

I am go ing to remind my honourable friend every time she changes from this position to the position that we need to study more, and I am going to be more direct in my comment because this is about the third time we have had this discussion. I can recall rather clearly, and I believe it was even earlier today -earlier this week on Monday-1 think I heard my honourable friend asking about the status of a funding request from the Wolseley Residents' Association-do you know to do what, Mr. Deputy Chairperson? An Honourable Member: What? Mr. Orchard: To study the health care system in Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Point of Order Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Yes, on a point of or der. am wondering, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if you can help clarify for me, does asking a question just for information purposes imply something on one side of the issue or the oth er or am I missing something? Mr. Deputy Chairperson , I think it would be useful since this has been raised so many times. Every time I have asked a question, the minister has suggested by merely asking the question, I put myself on one side of the issue or the other.

I would like to know, what is Estimates for if we cannot ask questions and therefore, if every time we ask a question, it means something, a certain judgment or a bias in our position already? Mr. Deputy Chair person: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of orde r. It is a dispute ove r the facts. *** Mr. Orchard: I am only going by recent memory but my honourable friend wanted to study the impact of one oth er area. Then my honourable friend, about three weeks ago, said all we do is study issues, we never make decisions.

Then, when we are about to make decisions, my honourable friend says, you cannot make the decision, you have not studied it enough. It is an absolutely unbelievable display of trying to be somet hing to everybody all the time. You know, where my honourable friend went over the line, where my honour able friend said to me, that, you know, all of these committ ees I have studied-and the allegation she made was they were always chaired by friends of the party, Tor ies, et cetera- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Point of Order Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: On a point of order, the minister is clearly putting false information on the record and imputing motive . I at no time suggested that all of the heads of all of these numerous comm ittees, too numerous to mention, were headed by Conservatives or friends of this gove rnment-at no point. I simply referenced two individuals whom I have known to be, in the past, supporters of this gove rnment and their concerns about the study session that is going on. So, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think the minister should withdraw those comments and get on with addressing the serious issue I raised.

H he takes offense at me asking these questions, just answer what he is doing with the informa tion, how he is consolidating the studies, and where the plan of action is. Mr. Deputy Chair person: Order, please. The honourable member did not have a point of or der, but I would like to advise honourable members please to choose their words very care fully. Some

May 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3000 of the wor ds ar e ge tti ng ver y close to nonparliame ntary. We will try and keep this to a very decorous afternoon. *** Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, certainly do not want to fall into the use of provocat ive language like the member for St. Johns. Never would I want to receive from the honourable Chairperson of this comm ittee such a direct and very appropriate caution as to language, because I want to maintain my gentlemanly approach to this whole Estimates process.

But I do tell my honourable friend, that when she drags up even a single name and says this is one of the Tory buddies that we have appointed to chair a committee, the inference is that we only pick Tory friends of the party. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Balderdash. Mr. Orchard: Well, I mean, that is what you do when you make those kinds of accusations. Now, I want to indicate to my honourable friend, my honourable friend may choose not to believe what I am going to tell her.

But I quite frankly have never entered into a political discussion on what the political affiliation of Professor Trevor Anderson is. * (1 500) I do not have the knowledge my honourable friend is so free to profess to this committee that he is a known Progressive Conser vative-[interjection] well, past or previous. Now you see my honourable friend, after making the accusation, is now trying to duck it. I do not know what Profe ssor Anderson 's political affiliation is. I do not know because I did not ask. I asked, could the individual take the time and chair a committee on the study of nursing issues?

I was looking for impartiality because it is a sensitive issue with lots of turf war, and I was given good indication that Professor Anderson would approach the issue from an impartial basis and that he would have a stature which would allow him to chair that comm ittee effectively. That he did. But at no time did I ever ask anyone what his political affiliation is because I was interested in the capabilities of the individual. For my honourable friend to try to make the allusion that he only got the job because he was a friend of the party never even entered into my discussions or my consider ations.

I want to tell my honourable friend, with very few exceptions, the people that have ser ved on co mm ittees investigating the issue of health care reform and change in the province of Manitoba, I could not tell you, except by accidental knowledge of the individual, what their political affiliation is. I could go through a whole list of individuals, and with very few exceptions I cannot tell you what their political affiliations would be. I can tell you what their professional credentials are, which is what we have asked them to bring to the committee.

Maybe my honourable friend is reflecting on the way the government she was part of chose to set up comm ittees and had to have them stacked with partisans to make sure that they would provide the appropria te advice to the Ho ward Pawley gove rnment. We have not done that. Where we have had major investigatio n--1 will tell you the process with the Health Advisory Network, the chair of that was Dr. Arnold Naimark.

I have to confess that, when I asked him to chair the commi ttee, I did not say, now the one thing we have to get out of the way first, are you a card-carrying supporter of the Progressive Conservative Party because if you are not I am not going to give you this job? I never even asked him that because I did not really care. I was looking for a person who could lead the comm ittee through a couple of years of very, very extensive reviews. Do you know the process that ensued from that?

The Health Advisory Network, appoi nted by myself-and again I will tell my honourable friend with very few exception s, I did not know the political affiliation of those members of the Health Advisory Network-est ablished the membership of all of the task forces. They established those by bringing togeth er people who had knowledge in the areas of investigation.

That is why when my honourable friend starts making these kinds of accusations that these study groups are led by To ries, et cetera, my honourable friend discredits many dedicated Manitobans whose professional interest is changing the way we deliver health care to make the system better; and, by holus-bolus, leaving the allegation that, if they worked on a study group for this gov ernment, they have to be politically partisan. That is absolutely untrue. That is not accurate and it does a discredit to those Manitobans who have chosen to take a lot of

3001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA May 5, 19 92 time without compensation. With few exceptio ns, all of my investigative commi ttees and task forces have been nonpaid. At best they get mileage and meals, and that is not too much compensation for the substantial amoun t of time they put in. That same truism applies to the Regional Mental Health Councils. I did not appoint a single person to any of those councils, yet my honourable friend would lead one to the conclusion they are all partisans of the political party in governmen t. She shakes her head now, and I should hope so.

As a matter of fact, I would hope later on this afternoon my honourable friend would clearly state that she intended no such conno tation of those many Ma nitobans who have helped this gov ernment develop policies that are better-that I simply say to my honourable friend whether my honourable friend wishes to believe it or not-which have helped to place Manitoba and the gove rnment of Manitoba and the health care system of Manitoba as viewed by the rest of Canada as the one system that has got its act togeth er, that is better positioned to deal with significant and serious financial and resource allocation challenges of the 19 90s, to deal with the new way of thinking about health care delivery, to discard the old-think methods that have been predominant in our health care funding for the past 20 years and to get on with the new system of health care delivery and the reform that is needed across Canada.

We are viewed by the rest of Canada as having our act together collectively as a pro vince, and government takes a small amoun t of the credit of that. I am pleased to say that, because, quite frankly, I have worked hard at it, and so have my senior staff who are present at this committ ee and my deputy minister. We have had the input from literally hundreds of Manitobans, professional Manitobans, to give us good advice.

Where my honourable friend says it is just a whole bu nch of st udies, I will put tha t record of achievement and positio ning, understanding of the system and ability to make meaningful change and real reform happen in the system against any previous four years of go vernment in the history of Manitoba as long as we have had medicare. There has not been an admi nistration that has ever engaged as many professionals across the health care system to give us sound advice to the best of their ability on how we can meet the challenges of the 19 90s.

If my honourable friend had done that when she was part of a government, we would not have the challenges we have today, but all my honourable friend seems to want to do is try to tear down the processes that we have put in place, and in the course of undertaking that narrowed agenda my honourable friend uses such things as: friends of the party are chairing these various committees. Well, that is not right. It is simply not right.

I am saying to my honourable friend, be careful when you are out there discrediting the work of many individual Manitobans who are seriously trying to help this go vernment come to grips with the changing environment of health care provision in Canada, because those people do not take these kinds of commen ts by my honourable friend, as reflective of the New Democratic Party's analysis of their worth to the system, lightly.

They do not take it lightly at all, nor should they, because I think my honourable friend, in trying to establish her phantom problems and her phantom allegations does discredit legitimate individuals who are working very diligently to make the system of health care better. Now, we spent a total of $14 million in 19 90-91 , $14, 590,000 on commu nity health centres, and in 19 91 -92 that increased to $1 7,893,000, and in 19 92-93 that was proje cted incr ease to $1 8,632,000. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Could you just repeat the 19 90-91 figure, 14- Mr.

Orchard: That was $1 4,590,000, and for 19 91 -92, $17, 893,000, that is a 22.6 percent increase over the previous year and for '92-93 $1 8,632 ,000 is the projected ex pend itu res representing a 4.1 percent increase. That is slightly lower than the 6.1 global because there is no capital involved in commu nity health centres,

whereas In our hospital system there is capital. Speaking of capital, my honourable friend wanted to know the list of const ruction contracts for the psych health centre. I will give my honourable friend a list here. There was bulk excavation shoring: There were five qualified bidders, two of whom responded in the low bidder; Hugh Monro Construction was selected. Pile foundations: There were four qualified bidders, three of whom responded; Subterranean was the lowest bidder. For pile caps: There were six qualified bidders, six responded ; Bird Construction was the low contract.

May 5, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3002 For concrete structure: There were five qualified bidders, four of whom respon ded; PCL was the low bidder. Tunnel cons truction: There were fiVe qualified bidders, five of whom replied; Bird Construction was the low bidder. Pedway structure : There were six qualified bidders, five of whom respon ded; Crystal Constructi on was the low tender. Exterior masonry : Three qualified bidders, two respond ing; Heymanns' Constructi on, the low bidder. In terms of roo fing: There were five qualified bidders, three responded ; Flynn Roo fing, the low bidder.

Windows and doors: Four qualified bidders, two respond ed; Border Glass, low bidder. Clad ding : Three quali fied bidders, two respondi ng; H H Robert son, low bidder. * (1 510 ) Quarry ti le: Three qu alified bidders, two respon ding; Fabris and Watts, low bidder. Interior/ exterior wall board : Six qualified bidders, fou r replying; Alpine Drywall, low bidder. Mechanical : Five qua lified bidders, fo ur respondi ng; Derksen Plumbing, low bidder. Electrical: Six qualified bidders, five replying; Westcan Electrical, low bidder.

Interior masonry: One qua lified bidder, one respo nding ; naturally, low bidder, Heymanns' Constructi on. In case my honourable friend wants to the know the size of the contract it was $1 1 5,330. Interior miscellaneous metal: Two qualified bidders, two respon ding; Empire Iron, lowest bidder. Hollow metal doors and frames: Fou r qualified bidders, four respon ding; Allmar Distributors , low bidder. Interior glazing: Two qualified bidders, two respondi ng; Border Glass, low bidder. Interior gypsum framing and carpe ting: Four qualified bidders, four respon ding; J. Wagner and Son, low bidder.

Miscellaneous metal plates: Fo ur qualified, four respondi ng; Shopost industries, low bidder. Exterior masonry : Three qualified bidders, three respondi ng; Heymanns' Constructi on, low bidder. Structural steel: Four qua lified bidders, four respondi ng; Abesco, low bidder. Roofi ng: Five qualified bidders, four respond ing; Aynn Roofi ng, low bidder. Metal wall cladding: Fou r qualified bidders, four respondi ng; H H Robertson, low bidder. Exterior gypsum and framing: Four qua lified bidders, four respon ding; J. Wagner and Son, low bidder.

Millwork: Five qualified bidders, four respond ing; Schmidke Millworks, low bidder. Aoor ing: Five qualified bidders, four responding; Western Asbestos, low bidder. Ceramic tile: Four qua lified bidders, three respondi ng; Torino Tile, low bidder. Painting: Six qualified bidders, six respond ing; Nu-West, low bidder. General installations: Fou r qualified bidders, four respo nding; John Miller, awarded the contract. He was the second lowest bidder, because the low bidder was allowed to withdraw because his bid was in error. Elevato rs: Four qua lified bidders, two respondi ng; Otis Elevators, low bidder.

Subgrade plumbing and site servicing: Five qualif ied bidders, five respondents; Derksen Plumbing, low bidder. Air-handling equipment: Six qualified bidders, six respond ing; Retrofit Systems, low bidder. Retrofit Systems not the low bidder, low bidder was rejected as not technically acceptable products, so it was the low bidder of those that qualified. Mechanical: Seven qualified bidders, seven replying; Derksen Plumbing, low bidder. Sprinklers: Three qua lified bidders, three respondi ng; Grinnell Fire, low bidder. Tunnel mechanical: Five qualified bidders, five respon ding; Derksen Plumbing, low bidder.

HVAC balancing: Three qualified bidders, three respondi ng; DFC Mechanical, low bidder. Electr ical: Five qual ified bidders, fou r respondi ng; State Contractors, low bidder. Tu nnel, central services : Seven qualified bidders, seven respo nding; McCaine Electric low bidder. Temporary power: Three qualified bidders, two respondi ng; State Contractors low bidder.

3003 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA May 5, 19 92 That should cover the 32 contracts . Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Would the minister be able to provide us with the breakdown for those 32 bid packages of the es tima te and the actu al expenditure? Mr. Orchard: I can give my honourable friend the individual contract values. Bear in mind that the pro ject, as I indicated last night, is estimated to be coming in slightly under budget by about $1 million or $905,000. If my honourable friend wants the amounts of each, I can give my honourable friend that figure. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: I would like both . figures, if the minister is able to provide us with the estimate overall and then the actuals overall. I am asking for him to provide us with the estimate on a stage basis and then the actuels for each of those . Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, these are the contractor bid prices to undertake the various types of work that I have indicated. That is not the total price. If you were to add up all the bids, it is not the total price, because there are architectural fees and other costs that are in addition to this as charged by the project manager and allocated.

If my honourable friend would just come out and ask the question. If she has an allegation that someone was way over bid in terms of some undertaking of operati on, please indicate so. I will inves tigate and give my honour able friend an answer, because going through each one of these may serve some purpose that I am not aware of.

When you add all of these and the management of the pro ject, you come up with an estimate that we were going to spend $52 million, I believe was the figure I had put on the record last night, and we are coming in at somewhere around $51 million, which appears as if we are going to be slightly below what our estimate was for the building and for the tunnel interconnect. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I do not have a specific issue to raise or some hidden agenda here at this point.

I am trying to get a handle on what was actually budgeted for in terms of the overall project, which I appreciate the minister giving us the information on yesterday, and also on a staged basis, and then try to understand how much was actually spent in terms of the stage-by-stage construction of the psych services building. If the minister does not have that at present, I am wondering if he could get it for us.

I agree I am not-the minister just reading out the list of the actual value of the contracts for those 32 bid packages is not going to really be that helpful, so if the minister would like to table that for information purposes that would be fine, but I think at this point I will proceed to another set of questions. Before doing so, let me indicate that we were just talking about the amount of studies being done by the gove rnment.

The minister, as I suspected, did distort my commen ts since I clearly stated, even before the minister started his long answer in response to my question, that my questions had contained absolutely no negative conn otati ons. If the minister would like me to state that, as he just said, I would state that I am making no such connotations against any individuals, I would be happy to do that again. I said it at the outset and I will say it now. I was casti ng no judgm ents, mak ing no negative connotations about any individuals.

In fact, I had never said a negative thing about Professor Trevor Anderson or about Mr. Purdy from Brandon . I think by all accounts they are two fine outstand ing individuals. I simply indicated to the minister that we have been saying for a long time that there has been a lot of effort going into studying health care issues and little sign of an action plan.

The minister has pooh-poohed us when we have made those commen ts, so I suggested to the minister today , as I have done in the past, that if he will not listen to us and our comme nts, maybe he would take seriously the words of individuals he is consulting with that app ear to be connec ted or su pporting the Conser vative Party. If the minister wants to jump all over that and dis tort comm ents and sugg est that we are questioning-suggesting that all of his chairs or members of these committees and task forces are political appoint ees, then let him do so.

That clearly indicates to me a very defensive reaction to a simple straightforward question and one that is obviously a sore point for the minister. It is not a sore point for me. I really do not care what political persuasion these individuals are as long as they are qualified. I do think what is significant about these two individuals I named is that they have some import ant advice for the minister that should be heeded, and they have something important to say in terms of future health care directions. I would hope that the minister would take their advice very seriously.

May 5, 19 92 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3004 I would like to ask a couple of questions o�nd will jus t mo ve all over the place for a momen t-Pharmacare. The minister had said he would provide us with a list of all the drugs that would be impacted by the change in Order-in-Council which removed coverage of any investigational or emergency release drugs. I am wondering if the minister could give us that list at this point. Mr. Orchard: I am just having that very important issue searched. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: While the minister looks for that informati on, could he indicate what plans, if any, are in the works with respect to changes to the formulary? * (1 520) Mr. Orchard: Every year-1 have to get the name of the comm ittee correct, but our phar macist comm ittee-the Pharmacare Advisory Committee. Is it made up exclusively of pharmacists, or do we have nonph arma cist repr ese ntati on?

The Pharmacare Advisory Comm ittee annually provides to government a list of changes that they would propose to the form ulary, deletions of current eligible pharmaceuticals or products available for use by individual Manitobans which have been covered by the Pharmacare progr am. They will suggest deletions, and they will suggest additions to the Pharmacare formul ary. That is an annual undertaking and is undertaken as we approach year-end, because any decisions that we make-the Pharmacare program is not fiscal year driven; it is calendar year driven.

The Pharmacare Advisory Committee concentrates, I think it is fair to say, its efforts in the latter part of the year so that they can provide advice to gove rnment so that the new regulation can be established which would make eligible new pharmaceuticals or new additions to the form ulary as well as to inform pharmacists across Manitoba of ones which are removed from the formulary and no longer qualify for reimbursement. That process is undertaken, as I said, towards the end of each year, and recomme ndations are incorporated in the Order-in-Council.

I believe I passed one towards the end of December each year wherein I have provided advice as to such issues as change in the deductible as it applies to seniors and families, any changes to the formulary and those drugs which are eligible, ineligible, and any changes in policy. For instance, this year we made some administrative changes in addition to the changes on the Pharmacare deductible and the form ulary. One of the policy issues fol lows on the questioning my honourable friend and I have been engaged in around the drug clarythromyci n.

Another policy area is that we have changed, for instance, the free provision of a photostat copy . When a person comes to the comm ission and asks, we now charge for that, I think, a $1 0 fee. That was an administrative charge, because we found our staff time was taken up to significantly greater value than the $1 0 in terms of searching for and photostati ng that claim form for an individual. With advance noti ce, we have said we are no longer going to do that. The intentio n is not to make that a revenue for the ministry or for the Pharmacare program but to curtail the dedication of staff time for that.

With clear advice on the refund form , we are anticipating that Manitobans will make sure they have a copy for their records before they file. The other change that we brought in was around-the cut-off date is firm at April 30 for any refunds. It has always been April 30, but we have allowed some flexibility around that close-oft of April 30 and I have accepted some. We made the decision again because of an admin istrative streamlining within the Pharmacare program to make that April 30 deadline definitive.

We will not accept claims for 199 1 past April30, 19 92, and we know we are going to get some complaints about it, but that still leaves a four-mon th window of time to make a claim. So we made those administrative changes. I believe that was the extent of administrative changes to Pharmacare this year. On the Pharmacare Advisory Commi ttee, the members are all pharmacists from gov ernment and private practice. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: I am just wonderi ng, before I go on to another line, if the minister might have the list, and would he be prepared to table that information of drugs that are now not covered as a result of the change at Order-in-Council, specifically that

section dealing with those drugs approved under the emergency release program ? Mr. Orchard: I am going to have to provide that information to my honourabl e friend Thursday or later, because this is not- the information I have I do not think is the information that was attached to the Order -in-Council.

3005 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 5, 19 92 Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I am not looking for the in form ation that was attac hed to the Order-in-Council, I am looking for a breakdo wn. Part of that Order-in-Council was a change that eliminated investigation or emergency release drug programs that have not received a notice of compliance unless provided for in this regulation. I am asking for a list of those drugs as now known on the market today that will now no longer be covered under Pharm acare because they fit into that category, clarythromycin being one, cyclosporine being another.

I am just wondering what Is the full list of those drugs. Mr. Orchard: We will get that. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I would just like to ask a couple of questions on the ambulance program , and then my colleague the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has some, I know, on the Northern Patient Transportation Progr am .

I would just like to start off with this whole issue that has been in the media lately, and that is the question of support for a paramedic program or an EMA Ill program which has been the basis of a pilot program for some time, has demo nstrated some results, but for which no level of gove rnment has yet made a commitment to fund and for which all kinds of concerns are being raised among those in the field.

Could the minister tell us what discussions he has had with the City of Winnipeg on this matter and what consideration the government is making in terms of some involvement in su pport for the paramedic program ? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if I might introduce to the committee members, Ken Knaggs, who is head of our ambulance division. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, on the issue that has been in the news recently, the issue has been brought to the ministry. Staff has entertained discussions with the City of Winnipeg, and the City of Winnipeg made a presentation to the commis sion board.

I have not received recomme ndations from the com mission board and hope to in the near future. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I am wondering why the gove rnment is pursuing the idea of purchasing a similar program from the Edmonton college. If this program is already here and has been tested on a pilot project, why is the minister's own department involved in pursuing purchase of a program from somewhere else, and how does that make sense from a cost-effective point of view? * (1 530) Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, before my honourable friend gets into the-and I do not want to put words in her mouth, because maybe she is not going to advocate that gov ernment should provide this funding to the City of Winnipeg, I do not know . But I want to tell my honourable friend that under ambu lance funding, we have established a form ula. In that form ula, we provide a per capita grant, based on the population of the municipality served by the ambu lance service. I want to take my honourable friend right back to square one. Ambula nce services are not an insured service under the Canada Health Act.

I want to take my honourable friend back to when we inhe rited government in 19 88. At that time, Manitoba had the lowest support for ambulance funding in Canada. It was the sub je ct of a demons tration out on the front steps, where ambulance service providers were saying to the pro vincial gove rnment that the province was not prov iding reasonable funding.

At any rate-1 am just trying to dig up the figures, because I am just going by memo ry-we took some thing like a $2-million or a $3-mi llion commitment on ambulance funding, and we brought in a new form ula and significant new funding to provide support to ambulance services across the pro vince. Now, when we did that, we es tablished several criteria so the muni cipalities could access the funding to varying degrees, depending on need. Our funding formula, first of all, was per capita driven; the per capita grant was sig nificantly increased so everybody participated in increa sed funding from go vernment.

Secondly , we had a number of ambulance units formulas so that larger ambulance asso ciations with more ambu lances would have an opportunity to access more funds. Another area that we brought in was distance sensitive so that we assisted with a greater ability to defray costs for long distance service of them, and the Swan River Valley in particular benefitted from that particular change in funding form ula, because dis tance sensitive it reduced, if I re memb er correctly, something like $300 to $400 a trip? On the longest trips, there was a reduction to the

May 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3006 individual paying the bill, because am bulance service is not an insured service, a reduction of over $400, I believe it was, for the longest ambulance bills. In addition to that, we set up accessible funding for training progr ams so that-we were running into a problem with our volunteer ambu lances where in som e co mmun ities vo lunteers to go into the ambulance services were having to take time off their work to undertake the ambulance training courses, first responder.

The case was being made to us that if employers could not provide time off with pay, really someone going in to provide service on a volunteer ambulance was out of pocket salary and out of pocket for the training costs oft en. So we changed all that to remedy an inherited disaster from Gary Doer as Leader of the New Democr atic Party. I just thought I would toss that in, seeing as how you are at the end of the room . At any rate, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson , when we prov ided a significant increase in funding to the municipalities and to the ambulance organizati ons, if they were independent of municipalities, we made a precondition that they could not use the increased money from the province to reduce their municipal commitment to ambulance funding. What we have tried to do is provide a minimum amount of su pport across the province for ambulance services. That is why we have made it per capita sensitive, and where there is extraordinary cost because of distance, we have addressed that through the new funding form ula.

Ambulance services, above what are achievable through the funding form ula of go vernment, are paid for in one of two methods; either direct charge to the user, for which we have encouraged Manitobans to have Blue Cross for ambulance, et cetera, or by direct levy of the municipal gov ernment on their property owners of any additional ambu lance costs that the municipality may want to put in from the property tax base to support additional costs of ambu lance services.

That is where I have difficulty with the City of Winnipeg's proposal, because what the City of Winnipeg is asking the pro vince to do is to provide them with special funding which would place them in a unique position to the rest of Manitoba in prov iding an enhanced ambu lance service for the residents of the city of Winnipeg. We have always made the case consiste ntly, and this was the case that was made in the previous administration, that we will provide as much minimal support as we can, recognizing that in some areas the provincial grant will not be sufficient to provide for an ambulance service.

Additional resources must be found either through charging the user of the ambu lance service or the property owners in the area served by the ambulance service. If we were to provide and accede to the City of Winnipeg's request, we would have to do the same thing to the rest of the pro vince, and we do not believe the rest · of the pro vince can necessarily afford to put that enhanced service in place, number one. Number two, I do have a bit of a problem with what happened in the time that we increased our ambulance funding.

Bear in mind that one of the preconditions was that the City of Winnipeg and ever y other mun icip ality rece iving funding, additional funding from the province, would not reduce their commitment. For the calendar year 1 988, which was the last full year under the formula that we inherited, which was the lo west in Canada, from the pr evious government, the City of Winnip eg received $1 ,1 1 7,752 under the per capita grant form ula. When we changed the form ula in its first year, bear in mind that it was not a full year, that grant increased to $1 ,561 ,490 , a $444 ,000 increase to the City of Winnipeg.

The City of Winnipeg in that same year decreased their commitment by some $220,000. That is where I have a little difficulty of them coming back to us now and saying, you give us more money, and we wi ll ma tch it. They reduced the ir commitment in the year that we increased ours. In the next year, we increased our grant again by $376,000 to the City of Winnipeg, to a total for the 19 90 calendar year of $1 ,937,91 1 on the per capita grant and district grant and direct grant to a total for the calendar year 19 91 of $2,1 29,1 29.

Over three calendar years, we have increased our support to the City of Winnipeg for the provision of ambulance services by $1 ,012, 000. Now, the City of Winnipeg decreased theirs in the first year, then increased it back up to reflect some reinstatement of funding. I will just give you the figures for the three calendar years, 19 88 as the base year and considering the increase in funding '89 and '90. The province increased the funding to the City of Winnipeg by $820,000, and that is not including 19 91 because I do not know what the City of

3007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 5, 19 92 Winnipeg contributed towards ambulance services in 199 1 . In calendar year '90, we had increased our funding to the City of Winnipeg by $820,000, and over the same period of time, the City of Winnipeg had increased their direct funding to the ambulance services by $232,000.

Had they matched our increase in funding, they would not be coming to government for any money for their enhanced ambulance service. * (1 540) So I have to tell my honourable friend that at no time, when they were dealing with their union in terms of the implementation of this program, was it preconditioned on the government of the province of Manitoba acceding to participate in the funding. Sure, it would be nice if we did. I recognize that, but appreciate that while we were increasing our funding to the city by $820 ,000, they were increasing theirs only by $232,000, hardly a shared commitment.

I mean, we were more than generous in our supply of funding to the City of Winnipeg. I simply say to you, I am going to have to hear an awful lot of significant argument before I am persuaded that we should participate to the tune of funding beyond the million dollars additional that we have put into the City of Winnipeg ambulance funding, taking that funding from $1 ,1 1 7,000 to $2, 12 9,000-a doubling of the funding.

I have a tough time being persuaded that with that much generosity in ambulance funding over the last three years, all of a sudden it is up to us as the province to provide the money or else this program dies when we were not being asked at the time or were not being preconditioned at the time when they brought in the program that unless we were there, the program would not go beyond a pilot project. We provided a significant amount of increase. One could say we have already paid for the program. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I do indeed have a number of matters to raise with the minister both in regard to the policy in regard to northern medi-vac and also in regard to northern patient transportation. The first situation I want to outline, and I will be sending the minister a letter in this regard, is in regard to policy as to medivac, because concern has been expressed to me in a numb er of commu nities. There are a number of communities in the North which are essentially served through the normal air ambulance system. I am not referring here to treaty communities; I am talking about Northern Affairs communities.

I know in the case of an incident involving a resident of Pikwitonei recently, Percy Laubman, there was concern about the procedures that are in place. It was expressed to me by memb ers of the family and also by a number of the nurses who have to deal with situations as to when medi- vacs are authorized and under what circumstances they are not authorized. There was a concern in this particular case that a medi-vac should have been authorized. I want to indicate that I will be corresponding with the minister in regard to that, because we want to ensure that proper policies are in place.

Obviously, people should not be evacuated by the medi-vac system if it is not an emergency situation, but there is very real concern being expressed by people in the communities, by individual nurses, et cetera, in the nursing stations about the limited role they have to play in terms of that determination. In fact, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in this particular case there was a specific concern that the nurses felt that a medi-vac should have taken place and that was not done. That is the issue of medi-vacs, and this is more giving notice to the minister.

I recognize that there is probably not that much time to deal with specific matters today, but I want to turn to the qu estion of nort hern patient transportation, because I have written to the minister time and time again on behalf of northern residents in regard to the singular unfairness of the $50 user fee for the Northern Patient Transportation Program. I am growing increasingly concerned about the rationalization of this government, of this onerous fee that is placed on northerners. I have raised this matter in the House; the member for Rin Flon (Mr. Storie) has raised this matter.

I know our critic has been very concerned about the $50 fee, and we get different kinds of rationalizations from me mbers opposite. For example, the minister will recall a recent case of Bruce Guyne who expressed concern about, not only the fact he is faced with a $50 dollar user fee, but the Northern Patient Transportation Program to begin with does not cover many of the additional costs that are involved in terms of the other costs-<lays off work, accommodation, meals, et

May 5, 19 92 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3008 cetera. His point was, why add the additional $50 on top? The minister responded to the concern that this individual placed, who has faced a fairly significant medical problem recently, that the question of days off work was irrelevant since most employers in Manitoba provide sick leave. Well, I do not know which emp loyers the minister is talking about. Many employers do not provide sick leave. There is no provision for sick leave in legislation, none whatsoever.

For the minister to try and rationalize, to justify the unjustifiable, in this particular case, I think, was par ti cularly unfai r, and I have corresponded and will be corresponding further on Mr. Guyne's case. I have written recently in the case of Dave Mackie who has had to go out of province for follow-up checkups in regard to a medical procedure that took place a number of years ago. Up until this point in time, that individual has received assistance in terms of the Northe rn Patient Transportation Program, at least up to travelling to Winnipeg.

Now he is being told he has to get an opinion from a specialist; the policy has changed and he has expressed his concern as to whether he, in fact, will be able to receive this kind of assistance. I have corresponded to the minister in this regard and questioned the overall policy. In this case, the minister responded that now he has tu rned policy over for northern patient transportation to regional hospitals, et cetera.

In other words, what the minister is doing is using the front line, the people in the North themselves, to essentially administer his policy and the policy of his gove rnmen t in ter ms of northern pati ent transportation. I have written to the minister in other cases, the R.D. Manaigre situation, and once again, I do not think the minister has understood the situation.

An individual who had a secondary infection that had extended far beyond a dental situation into a potentially life-threatening situation, and who had to go down to Winnipeg and was unable to get any assistance from the Northern Patient Transportation Program because the surgery that took place to deal with that infection, which was life-threatening, could have been that serious, took place in a dental surgeon's office. So there are questions related again to overall policy issues. The minister ought not to simply brush them off.

But I will get back to the focus of what I would like to talk about today and the $50 user fee, Mr. Deputy Chairpers on. What struck me as particularly insensitive on behalf of the minister is when he, and I know the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has talked about this, they have talked about this being a fairness and equity tax. In fact, in response to a letter I had written on behalf of one of my constituents, Mr.

Guyne, the minister said that, oh, well, many other people in the surrounding area of Winnipeg have to pay a considerable cost to go to Winnipeg for medical procedures unavailable in · their home community. Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, let us deal with that. Is he talking about some of the examples that his own Premier talked about, a resident of Gimli? How much is a resident of Gimli going to have to spend to come from Gimli, Manitoba, to Winnipeg for surgery, for medical procedures not covered under the provision that does provide assistance in terms of that.

How many of them are going to have to pay more than $50? Obviously that is not the case. Is it the case in terms of someone living in the minister's constituency? Just talk about strict travel costs. What is the bus fare from the minister's constituency to Thompson? For the minister to tum on to the considerably greater costs of some people in rural areas compared to the north is simply not true, and once again the minister does not account for the lost time. (Mr.

Gerry McAlpine, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) If he just cares to look at travel schedules, someone travelling by bus from Thompson to Winnipeg, and I have been on that bus many times, 1 0 hours, is going to lose a significant amount of his wages, because as I said earlier, they are not covered in terms of sick leave as the minister seems to think they are. * (1 550) I ask questions again to this government in the way they are imp lementing this $50 fee . The Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) said in the House that essential medical procedures are covered.

Well, I say how unfair can you get than in the case of a constituent of mine whom I saw just recently who has been off work since December, who is borderline kidney dialysis, who has gone to Winnipeg nearly 1 0 times in the last four months and has had to pay the $50 user fee each and every time

3009 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA May 5, 19 92 he has gone to Winnipeg? If he was on kidney dialysis he would have been covered, but here he is going to Winnipeg dealing with a specialist who is trying to make sure that that individual does not have to go on kidney dialysis, and he has had to pay. Not justthe $50, by the way, either, but all the other costs that are not picked up. How is he doing that? He is, between UIC, being on sick payments in terms of UIC, and he has basically had to go to the welfare department. But because he is not strictly on social assistance, once again he is stuck with the fee.

How does the minister then deal with the situation in many of the rem ote com mu nities around Thompson, who are now having to travel even just to Thompson, Wabowden, for example, Thicket Portage, Pikwitonei, for basic medical treatment? Is the minister not aware of who he is hitting the hardest? If people are on social assistance it is covered. If people are receiving kidney dialysis it is covered.

But many people have to go for essential, and I use the word to the Minister of Northern Affairs, "essentialw medical checkups are not covered, and these are people on low income, pensioners, our senior citizens, so it is having a real hardship on people. We have been saying this since they introduced this fee. It is now being referenced by every council in northern Manitoba, community councils, urban councils such as in the City of Thompson, and I know the minister and the Minister of Northern Affairs have received countless resolutions calling for removal of the $50 fee.

At its recent convention, the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities also called for the removal of the $50 user fee on northern transportation, and no matter how the minister tries to justify it, it is having a negative impact on northerners and it is not a fair tax. We have asked questions for the minister to review this.

We have raised this issue and we will continue to raise it, but rather than continue to do this, time in and time out, face the frustration of dealing with the minister who does not understand, as he has indi cated ve ry recently in his correspondence to myself, where he has dismissed the concerns of average northerners, direct letters written by average northerners concerned about the impact of his policies and the policies of his government.

That being the case, we feel we have no alternative than to put very clearly in the form of a motion exactly what this government needs to do, what this committee needs to do. I therefore move that this committee condemn the government for imposing the $50 user fee for the Northern Patient Transportation Program, and call on the minister to revoke the $50 user fee immediately. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): To the honourable member for Thompson: Do you have the motion in writing? Mr. Ashton: Yes, I do. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I just wanted to have some clarification from the minister on this issue. I have a letter in front of me, that is February 6, 19 92. I will table it for the members of this committee. I think that we should read that very carefully. I want some clarification in terms of the northern transport system. It says that about 77,000 people in the province of Manitoba are eligible to have travel expenses for necessary medical appointments su bsidized under the provincial northern transport program. The memb er for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has raised the Issue on which I need some clarification.

I want to know whether the minister's office has received any major complaints or any concern from patients who have been unable to come to Winnipeg to get their treatment done. I think that is the issue here. It is whether there is some-1 think it needs to be clarified. I think before we as a caucus make any decision about this issue, I want to reach to the bottom. I would like to table this letter for the memb ers. It is signed by the director of the emergency services.

It is very clear that I do not think anybody, according to this letter, could be denied services for medical reasons under The Health Services Insurance Act. If somebody is going to do that, they are in violation of The Health Services Insurance Act. I just wanted us to read this letter very carefully because it may not be, as the me mber for Thompson has said, and if he is right, that some individuals have not been able to get services. That means either this person who has formed the policy is wrong, or the member for Thompson is wrong.

One of them is not right. [interjection] I just wanted to-[inter jection] Because it is very important for us to reach to the basics of the problem in terms of the why when we are raising the issue and when the government's own policy, signed by this Dr. lp, medical director of Emergency Health

May 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3010 Services, dated February 6, 19 92, and it came to my office as a medical practitioner, to make sure that we know what we are doing. There is form attached to it, and the form is called MIC No. 626. On this form it is clear that if the patient or consultant wishes the patient to return for a follow-up appointment, this form must be completed for the subsequent one to be processed. That clearly defines that they cannot deny anybody access to services for medically necessary services.

It does not matter whether they are employed or not, whether they are working or not. I do think that is the issue. I just want some clarification. I would like to have somebody to have the copies for the members of the committee to read this letter before we proceed further. I think it is very essential that we should know the whole issue of this problem, and then I think we can decide as a caucus whether we are going to support this motion, because I want to be very clear on what we are dealing with here.

The second part of my question to the minister is: How much money, actually, did the patients pay last year as a $50 fee? Has there been somebody who has been paying that amount of money? Mr. Orchar d : Well, Mr.

Acting De puty Chairperson, my honourable friend the member for The Maples has made reference to a letter that Dr. lp has sent out to physicians in terms of providing gu idance around the Northern Pat ient Transportation Program. let me indicate to my honourable friend that our experience to date is saying that there may be a great deal more politics around the issue than medical facts, if I can put it as genteelly as possible. The reconciliation at year end, we are unable to do to indicate what has been the contribu

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-59
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 59.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	196a2e8682d2ddaad2aa98ac64b6b19567985078

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