J \ PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 52 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 13, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 13, 1971, Tape 623, The House met 1 ,it, U .00 a .m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair, Presenting Petitions: Page 1. Morning Session MR.A,C.WORNELL: Mr. Speaker, it is my duty and personal privilege to present a petition from the people of Bay D'Espoir. This petition is signed by 1,226 names, It deals with a spur road which is required to link up the settlement of Conne River to the prQposcd Hr. Breton highway, Now, Sir, this is the second time that I have presented a similar petition to this House. The first time the petitioners requested a causeway.

It was at one time the Government's intentibn to build a causeway or to try and get a· causeway put across Conne River. However, we ran into some difficulty with the Federal Government and as the hon. members know,the ' Federal Government have jurisdiction over harbours and rivers. That idea was changed and we, the Government I should say,have been concentrating on a road, a spur road, This petition, the

preamble I will read. ,..Whereas Conne River is the only settlement in Bay D'Espoir not connected _ with the main highwav by road, and,

Whereas Conne River has a population of approximately 550 people, with a school enrollment of over 100, and,Whereas all students from Grade 7 to Grade Xl must attend school and pay board in St. Alban's,which costs the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador approximately $20,000 a year in board alone, and,Whereas it is difficult to attract qualified teachers to this area because of the isolation, and,

Whereas there are no medical facilities in Conne River,and

Whereas ice conditions during winter months makes it impossible at times to reach medical help even in times of emergency and,

Whereas, the men of Conne River must endure untold hardships in order to reach their piace of employment,if and when such employment may be obtained, and,

Whereas a road link with Hr. Breton road from Conne River would provide access to mary cords of wood which could then be used as a source of employment for the men of this area. we, the undersigned residents of Bay D'Espoir ~ - I wish to point out here.Mr. Speake~ that this petition 3465

May 13, 1971. Tape 623. Page 2~ Morning Session. is from the residents of Bay D'Espoir which takes in all the settl~ments on the perimeter from St. Alban's to Conne River- that takes in about six different settlemants. ''We, the residents of Bay D'Espoir humbly petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to provide Conne River with the necessary an badly needed road link to the Hr, Breton-Bay D'Espoir Highway.• The original,Sir, is signed by B. Condon M.D., his wife, Mayor A.. Walsh; Rev. Gordon Grace, P.P.

I strongly endorse the prayer of this petition,Sir, and ask that it be received and laid on the table of the House, referred to the department to which it relates. MR.EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I have great pleasure in supporting this petition which has been so ably presented by the hon. member for Hermitage. It fits in completely with my theory often expressed in this House,of connecting up the South Coast as an o•erall unit. That whole area of Bay D'Espoir and Fortune Bay, of course, in which I aD1 interested~can only be a viable area if it is connected by road,if it is all brought toge~her.

This is a very essential programme which I thic~ the Government should look at,not just from the short point view of connecting up one settlement such as Conne River with the Bay D'Espoir area.but the whole area in itself. It is one of the last remaining sections of the country that has done without so much for so long.It is quite another world in that particular area because they are not in the twentiethsentury at all.

I think the hon. member has a very good case.~s I said earlier,they are industrious people, they are a good people, in as far as the activities which they can do in that place but they are completely out of touch with what is going on in the rest of the world. Certainly they deserve,as a people and as industrious people,all the modern amenities that we can give them. But even more important for the development of the Province as a whole, that whole south coast area needs to be brought into proper function with the rest of the country and it can only be done if a steady progressive programme 3466

May 13, 1911. Tape 623, Page 3. Morning Session. of extending the roads along that coast can be brought into being. It is no use saying 1as has so often been said in the past 1 because of the terrain up there that this cannot be done. We have already proved it in a number of areas,that we can drive roads through this area, I must heartily support the hon. member. I think that should be one of the Government's first priorities. MR.SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, it was a disappointment to the Government thaC we were not able to get help for the building of what we wanted to build, which was a causeway.

We still think that a causeway would be better. Howeverf~Ithe absence of a causeway,of·course,the road is the next .best thing and the Government have adopted the policy-of building the road. We hope to make a start on it in the reasonably near future, but I am not able to say how near that is~ We have decided to do it, MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition of the hon. member for Hermitage.

Also, having been quite familiar with that area, never having visited Conne River but looked across the river at Conne River, what the member says and what the petitio~ asks for is reasonable and necessary. In fact it is vital. The Bay D'Espoir area is an area of the Province that has not received the high priority that it should have received. It has not received priority in the field of Economic and Industrial Development certainly,like the power facilities that are down there.

They are doing the Bay D'Espoir area very little good~ We have heard from time to time mentions of gre~t prospects for that area but nothing has materialized. ,erhaps a change of Government will make these things materialize. Certainly the petition that the member presents is reasonable. I notice that the Premier says it is the Government policy to do this. We know it is the Government policy to do all good things but the question is what is a reasonable timel We hope there will be more information and more action on that before the year is out. In any event,the petition has the unanimous 3467

May 13. 1971. Tape 623. Page 4. Horning Session. support of the House, We hope there will be some action this summer. MR. H ICK!-IAN: Mr. Speaker. I would like to support the petition presented by the hon. member for Hermitage and to reiterate what has been said. In the Bay D'Espoir area we have potential there for development that is not surpassed by any other area in this Province, We have had Commissions, ?he Hon. the Minister of Finance was the member of the Cheeseman Co111111ission. The hon. the Senior Member for Harbour Main was Chairman of the Transportation Coumission.

They all came to the same conclusion 1 that Bay D'Espoir, that whole Bay D'Espoir area,has tremendous potential not just for industrial I development in the area but also as a service centre for Central Newfound­ land, It is a natural, It is one of the best harbours in the Province; . Indeed it is one of the best harbours on Canada's mastern Seaboard, ice­ free, They have a little problem with ice in Conne River, ~hat is not ocean ice, that is the river freezes over and not every year, some y.ears,and never to the extent that you could not smash it up with a half deuent punt. But, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that all honourable members will agree that so far the people in Conne River, so far the people at the Head of Bay D'Espoir have been blinded with commissions, blinded with reports, . blinded with good wishes and good intentions 1results to date, nil. Positively nil!

It is_a tragedy that we have seen this part of the Province so neglected, They had a taste of prosperity during the construction of the hydro plant in Bay D'Espoir, when that was completed they went back from whence they came, ,Host r~grettable,the Conne River area that we have before tne House now is an area where you have excellent timber stands. it used to be a sou~ce of supply of pulpwood for the Boµaters,I think, good salmon fishing, it used to be,I can recall as a young fellow this is where all the saall jackboats, as we used to call them, would come with the birch and other logs.

There was a half-decent woods operation going on in Conne River. But they had not moved into the, I was going to say into the sixties - they have not yet moved into the fifties. There is very, ~ery 'little 3468

May 13a 1971. Tape 623. Page 5. Morning Session. difference in the public services that are presently available in Conne River today than were available around the turn of the century. I think ~he hon, member is to be complimented on bringing this petition to the House. The tragedy is that it is being brought in in 1971 for work which should have been done in 1951. MR.JONES: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support this petition. I kno~ the area better than most members in the House. It was my good fortune to serve there as a Magistrate for a great number of years.

Conne River, the settlement of Conne actually is one of the most fascinating communities, for reasons that I will not go into at the moment. They are well known to members of this House, I remember going over to Conne the day we opened the road to Bay D'Espoir and talking to some of my friends there. I asked them how they felt about it. "Well~' they said, "it makes our position a little bit worse now because the people on the other side of the bay are that much better off." However, I think the question of putting a bridge and causeway across Conne River would have been a very costly one.

I am glad now that cith the road going through to Harbour Breton, at Conne, it is good terrain there.I have walked over most of it. It ii a simple matter to run a spur road in from Conne River to the Harbour Breton read, ibis will serve>I think, Conne Jjeople better than {{ we had gone and put the bridge and causeway across the barrisway, for the simple reason they will be connected directly to the main highway, they will have free access to the .... hospital and other facilities at Harbour Breto _n as well as a reasonably short route to St. Albans, of course, which is the centre of their educational services.

I really hope,Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Highways,my colleague, will find it possible to start this spur road this season. MR.STARKES: l would also like to support the petition. In connection with the proposed road to Conne River,I would inform the House that an engineering survey is being made, If this survey has not already started it will be started in the very near future. · 3469

May 13, 1971. Tape 623. Page 6. Mornin~ Session. On motion petition received. ORDERS OF THE DAY : MR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day,I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries arising out of vhat appears to be serious licensing restrictions with regard to Newfoundland salmon fishermen. I wonder can the Minister inform the House what representation he has made to the Federal authorities to have those restrictions removed, what success he has had'l MR.WINSOR: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have made strong representations to the Federal Department of Fisheries.

As a matter of fact the Hon. the Premier himself, took this matter up with the Hon. 3ack Davis, I think.because of the strong representation that we did make,some changes are being made right now. That is about all I can say; we have strongly protested dome of the regulations. MR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the announced changes which have been made, certainly the Minister is not satisfied ~1th those. I wonder if he is working with the Conservative Members of Parllament who are doing their best, if he is working with them to make suEe these restrictions are removed entirely.

MR.WINSOR: Mr, Speaker, I do not have to work with the members of Parliament, I go direct to the Minister of Fisheries office m~self. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY~ Mr. Noel, Chairman of Committees: MR.~OEL: I think the Committee was on Item 8 Mines, Agriculture &,.llesources. 815-04-07. Newfoundland Marketing Board, for the Committee to reduce the sum of $70,000 to one dollar I believe. 'MR.CROSBIE: In connection with the amendment, }fr. Chairman, before we vote on the amendment the item is a Newfoundland ~'arketing Board.

There are several facts that I "muld like to quote from this repoi,t the Minister supplied us ,..1th. "Agriculture and Food l'etentials;'which ' was prepared by the ft~riculture and Economics Research Council of Canada. It is a very 3470 1· I

Hay 13 1971. Tape 623 Page 7/ Morning Sessjon. interesting report and appears to be very well done. First, Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out the report says that Newfoundland continues to have low average income, a high proflortion of rural population,low agricultural productivity and a low rate of resource development. Then it goes on to say: Page 1. #Disposal income of rural residents in 1966 vary from forty-five to sixty-five per cent of the Canadian average, depending on the regions within the Province.

Forty-six per cent of the island poflulation was rural compared to twenty-six per cent of the rest of Canada." Now the figures given on page 1, ~1r. Chairman, show that in 1966 the farm population of Newfoundland l,,as 8,455 people_. That is 1. 7 per cent of our population is categorized as a farm population. Rural non.farm population 218,000, urban 266,000, or a total of 493,000. The point is,~r. Chairman, that when we are considering the Harketing Board we have to remember that there is a very saall number of farmers or farm population in this Poovince compared to consumers.

We have a population .. / ~ of 500,000, of ~•hich l .. 7 per cent are connected with farms~ithe iest are urban or non-farm rural population. They are the consumers of this Province. The report also points out, page 2, that in the last decade, (quote~ "Employment in Newfoundland increased about 21% in contrast to 27% for all Canada." 3471

May 13, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 624 NC - 1 MR. CROSBIE: and that is important to bear in mind. Another.interesting fact pointed out by the Report is that the demand for food . in Canada represents an expenditure of about twenty per cent of disposable income. In other ·words,in Canada as a whole, about twenty per cent of disposable income, personal disposable income,is spent on food. The Report goes on to point out, in Newfoundland, the porportion of disposable income spent on food appears to approach twenty-five per cent overall. In other words• the amount of money spent by people in Newfoundland,on food, represents twenty-five per cent of their income,

whereas in Canada as a whole it only represents twenty per cent of their income. So to our population,the purchase, the buying of food is of far greater importance and takes far more other income than the rest of Canada. So that,,when we are considering the Marketing Board or any other schemes to keep the price of agricultural products up, it has to be Jept in mind that the people in our Province can least afford to pay higher prices whether it is for eggs, poultry or otherwise. This is pointed out in this Report and we have to be very cognizant about that. At page eight, Mr.

Chairman, it is also pointed out, on average per capita basis, disposable income was (this is in Newfoundland) $1.360 , approximately Jorty-two per cent below the Canadian average. So here in Newfoundland, we have a population, first who-se disposable income is forty-two per cent below the Canadian average, a population that spends twenty­ five per cent of its ~isposable income on food,as compared with twenty per cent £n the rest of C~nada 1 and therefore a population that can least afford to pay higher prices ·for eggs. poultry, broiJ,ers or whatever else the Marketing Board wants to keep the prices up on.

Newfoundland has the lowest per capita personal disposable 3472

May 13, 1971 (Uorning) Tape No. 624 NC - 2 MR. CROSBIE: income in Canada. That is what the Report points out. So when ·we are considering the Marketing Board, Mr. Chairman, or what it is doing, these are very important facts to consider. At page sixty-two it stated that in eggs the Province is self sufficient, at current price levels with an annual farm value of eggs in 1969 of about$5.5 million. In other words, in 1969 the consumers of Newfoundland spent, well they spent more than that but this is the annual farm value at least $5.5 million on eggs.

In eggs the present economic activity generated about $12 million,Thfreport figures that by 1980 this will ;• go up to $15 million. So it is quite obvious, Mr. Chairman, very obvious, that the operations of this Newfoundland Marketi~ Board bas to operate,keeping in mind the fact that the consumers of this Province can least afford of all the Provinces in Canada to pay higher prices for food. Now the hon. member for Labrador West pointed out on Tuesday the problem they have there in Labrador West.

They can get egg~ or other food products from Quebec much more cheaply than from Newfoundland, from the Island of Newfoundland. The hon. Minister said that,as he understood it under the law, that the law had to apply equally to all areas of the Province. ~ell,Mr. Chairman,that is absolutely stupid. If the law provides that now, all the House needs to do is change the .. _ law. ?hat can be done easily.

There is nothing stopping the Government.at this Session of the House, introducing an amendment to the Marketing Act, so that they can apply the law differently in different areas of the Province, if .. that is necessary and obviously Labrador West, Labrador City and Wabush and Labrador should not be treated,in this question of marketing,in the same manner as·the rest of the Island. So if the Act does not permit that to be done,then let us change the Act. I think the Minister suggested that,if this illere done,we might vulcanize ·.the Province. Well that is just so much tripe.

All the Provinces are busy now vtdcanizing Canada,with all 3473

May 13. 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 624 NC - 3 MR. CROSBIE: their Marketing Boards. conflicting Marketing Boards. They are all busy keeping broilers. eggs- and other products out of one another's provinces.· One of the reasons we joined Confederation. Mr. Chairman. was supposed to be that this would lower food costs in Newfoundland. Yet here we have the Government trying to increase or maintain food prices in Newfo\Dldland. Now that is necessary to a certain extent also. to protect our own farmers but there has to be some sensible compromise and this does not appear to be the case at the moment, Mr. Chairman.

The Marketing Board does not appear to be the case. Here we have the Government spending $25.OOOron Consumer Affairs in this Budget and spending, I do not know,$3 million or $4 million on_developing agricultural products, administering the Marketing Act. subsidizing Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation, •ubsidizing the Provincial Poultry Co-operative and all the rest of it and $25,000 is being spent on behalf of the Consumers of Newfoundland. lhis is inconsistent and it does not 4ppear reasonable. This is a Province that can least stand high prices of food.

It has been stated in the House that if eggs are ten, twelve or fourteen cents a dozen more in Newfoundland than they are in Bava Scotia, it is because of the retail stores. It is funny how there is always somebody around to blame it on~that the Government has no connection with. If there is an exhorbitant profit being made by supermarkets and retail stores, well why does the Government not do something about that? MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Such as •••• MR. CROSBIE~ Such as putting on price controls, if they think it is really serious. MR. SMALLWOOD: The only time~it has ever been done was during war. 3474

May 13, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 624 NC - 4 MR. CROSBIE: That does not mean to say it cannot be done in peacetime The point is, Mr, Chairman, that the Government had food prices investiga~ed in 1960,by Mr. Adams and the Royal Conunission on Food Prices,1967 or 1968 we got the Report. That Commission did not find any stores or supermarkets making an exhorbitant profit.

So when the Premier gets up in the House and says the high price of eggs is due to the stores of Newfoundland jacking the price up, this is just so much tripe, This has been investigated by a Royal Commission and found not to be so, In 1949 or 1950 the Government appointed a Royal Connnission on prices also. I think the Chairman was Louis Ayre or he was one of the membe~s. That Cpmmission reported and found no exhorbitant profit heing made by retail stores either.

So we cannot accep~ this bald statement of the Premier's or the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, that the high price of eggs in Newfoundland is due to the retail stores. There is no .. proof of that 0 ~he Royal Commissions.that have lookedinto tha~have found it not to be so. It is just so much tripe. It is not backed up by any facts, This is just the bald opinion with nothing to back it up. So Mr.

Chairman, in view of these facts that are contained in the Agticulture and Food Potentials Report, our low disposable income in Newfoundland, our low per capita income, the high percentage of our income, twenty~five per cent spent on food as compared to' twenty per cent in the rest of Canada, we are the Province whose population can least stand high prices. I therefore am going to support the annnendment moved by the hon. member for St, ~ohn's East. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, before the amendment is put to a vote, there are a few observations I would like to make.

Touching upon the remarks made by both the hon. the Premier and t~e hon. the Minister concerned with this Department, First of all, in reply to the point that the Marketing Board as such is contrary to principles of Confederation because in effect it sets up tariff curtains 3475

May 13, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 624 NC - 5 MR-. MARSHALL: around Newfoundland: The hon. the Premier referred to . situations in the Province of Quebec in years gone by and maybe it still pertains but certainly the rule was brought in some years ago to the effect that margarine could not be consumed in that Province, if it was so,it had to be so in its real form not in its artificial form.

But Mr; Speaker, these instances and the others to whi'c:h the Premier adverted are,and relate to the action by a Province for saying that one particular class of goods shall not sell in the Province, which is competent for a Province to do because a Province has the jurisdiction and the rJght with respect to matters concerning property and civil rights in the Provinee. But with respect to this mattei:,when you talk about eggs,that you are allowed to purchase eggs produced in one

section of the Nation but not in the other, this is a matter solely relating to trade and connnerce and outside the power of the Provincial Government to do it. It should not be done. As I say it is Balkanizing trade and commerce ifi outside the power of the Provincial Government to do it. It should not be done, as I say it is Balkanizing Canada •. Now when we come to this business of eggs itself, there is another question that I would like to bring up.

The Premier has indicated that there may be, and the"·Minis ter supported this, . that there may be and there probably wili be other types of produce which will come under the Newfoundland Marketing Board. 7he question that I want to pose is this - if the egg farmers find themselves in difficulties, there are other farmers in Newfoundland right now that are suffering probably even more serious difficulties than the egg farmers were. I refer particularly to the hog industry of Newfbundland,where the price has fallen out from underneath, beyond the beyond, way down.

It is very, very hard for pork to be produced by the farmers at any profi~ Because :1476

May 13, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 624 NC - 6 MR. MARSHALL: of the egg prices around, I would like to ask the question, why kindred protection is not afforded to this type of farming industry while,on the other han~,it is afforded to the poultry industry/ I think the most important point,with respect to these Marketing Boards, is the point that has been brought out before and the hon. member for St. John's West brought it out again here today. That is with respect to the prices, the prices which the individual has to pay in order to purchase eggs.

They are higher and the Minister has conceded that they are higher than in the · Province of Nova Scotia. The Minister has blamed this on the retailers, to a large extent. I have done some checking in the meantime and find that certainly you are going to have instances from time to time, where there is going to be profiteering, y~u do in every business. But the free enterprise system should ultimately perclude this. However, checking through a couple of large food chains recently, I find that his allegation is certainly not of general ~pplication and does not pertain to every retailer,certainly around the St.

John's area. One case.for instance,the total mark~up is nine cents in the difference between the price of the producer to the retailer and that from the retailer to the customer. It has to be borne in mind as well, while nobody h~s any brief for the retailer of eggs, it has to be bo_me in mind that they are the ones that take the risk with respect to the breakage as well. No, Mr.

Chairman, I think that if the Nova Scotian industry is in a lot of chaos because the price of eggs is down to forty-eight cents a dozen, and down pretty well twenty per cent in each category, below ours, and I am quite sure the people who have to support their families and supply food for their families in this Province will turn around and say we can stand an awful lot of chaos like this in the Province of Newfoundland, not only with respect to the egg -production but with respect to many other cotrnr~dities and particularly the food 3477

May 13, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 624 NC - 7 MR. MARSHALL: commodities. It is rather disappointing to see this Government 1 which has depicted itself from time to time as the champion of the ordinary person now turning out really to be the champion of the egg merchant over,and for the detriment of the populace of the Province. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Chairman, what the Opposition are proposing in the amendment is to ~masculate and kill the Newfoundland Marketing Board, I find that a little surprising and I am sure the people of Newfoundland will find it surprising,particularly the farmers of this Province will find it surprising, The question of protection for Newfoundland producers ,;did not come to the floor just yesterday, Mr. Chairman.

I was in Corner Brook yesterday for a purpose that I think is a worthy one and I happened to buy a newspaper, The~Western Star•of yesterday's date, and there is a little piece here that says; wfrom our files;N thirty-five years ago, May 12th., 1936, it says; "due to the recent interest taken in poultry at Codroy Valley, there is found to be difficulty in marketing the extra supply of eggs. Instead of importing large quantities of eggs 1it would be an improvement to the Country•(which is what we were then)'to dispose of Newfoundland eggs first.

Some Government protection should be given our poultry men against the importation of so many eggs from Canada~ On the argwnent we have just heard, star~inj with the hon. member for St •. John's West and then ranging to the hon. the member for St, John•s East,is that the question of protection for Newfoundland poultry men only began, Mr. Chairman, in very recent time, in the last four months,with the Newfoundland Egg Marketing Board,and certainly after Confederation. This is 1936, Mr, Chariman., ~t that time there was a problem in trying to develop agriculture and particular segments of it in the Province.

It took thirty years to get legislation on the books,as we did in 1966,and in 1966 every hon. member in this House, Mr. Chainnan, supported the legislation. lndeed,if we go back 3478 1·

May 13, 1971 (Morning) Tape No, 624 NC - 8 MR. CALLAHAN: to the Hansard of April 17th., 1967, you .will find the hon • . the number one Leader of the Opposition, describing this as a ·very good, very fine piece of legislation, HA very comprehensive and a very ambitious Bill. One that would be of tremendous help to our primary producers, our farmers •••• ,"soon and so forth. The same could be said for the then Leader of the Opposition, who we understand now is coming back again, ~e made rather similar remarks, at some lengths,and ended by saying ,"I give my whole hearted support to this Bill," Now this Bill, Mr.

Chairman, is a Natural ,roducts Marketing Act, which passed and was made law in the 1966-1967 Session, and under which the Newfoundland Marketing Board, which is the subject of 815-04-07 the Vote which now the Opposition would reduce to one dollar, that~is the Newfoundland Marketing Board established under the legislation, approved unanimously, warmly supported and applauded on the other side, approved unanimously by this Ho119~ in the 1966-1967 Session, What has heen done since the Proclamation of the legislation which was only last year?8ecause we did not,(as indeed the then Leader of the Opposition advised us, advised the Government not to do) we did not proceed precipitously.

He suggested that we make haste slowly and we did make haste slowly,to the frustation, I might say, of producers who were demanding for three years that it be done. Finally,last Spring, ~ast April, the legislation was proclaimed, the Marketing Board was set up and it has been in operation now for about twelve months, and it has been extremely beneficial, not only to the producers, ·:Mr. Chairman, but also to the consumers of this Province. A year and a half, two years ago, grade A extra large eggs were selling for as high as $1.05 a dozen,in this Province,on the ordinary retail market and selling now, Mr.

Chairman, in the range of about seventy, saventy-one, seventy-two cents, I understand. The Marketing Board is largely responsible for that. 3479

May 13, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 624 NC - 9 MR. CALLAHAN: Now the Marketing Board is not responsible for the spread as between the producer and the consumer. I referred to it here the other night. I have not seen it reported anywhere. So I will refer to it again, Mr. Chairman. I referred to the fact that at times,since the 1st. of January, there has been a spread of as much as twenty-four cents per dozen on eggs,to the consumer,at the retail level in this Province, principally outside St. John's, because the bulk of production is in Eastern Newfoundlan~.

But in the Grand Falls area, which I would not expect the Tories to know about nor to care about, and the Corner Brook area, which I would not expect them to be too concerned about, the spread has been up to as much as twenty-four cents per dozen~and I just asked my staff, Mr. Chairman, to get me the precise information as to dates and locations. Now I understand that in Corner Brook this morning on · an open line progrannne there is high dudgeon being expressed by retailers. Vell that is just too bad, ltecause one of the things we have set out to do, Mr.

Chairman, is to inform the consumers and to ensure that the consumers are informed,by means of advertisements in the newspapers and otherwise,as to what the level of price to the producer is, so that • they will know what the spread is between the producer and the retailer, or the praducer and the consumer; Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. the member for St. John's East, who I believe moved this amendment, and this is curious too, on the one hand he wishes to wipe out the Marketing Board and on the other hand he wants to have the same kirid of protection for hog producers. I find that a little

May 13, 1971 Tape 625 (morning) PK - 1 MR. CALLAHAN: ~trange. We know, we well know, Mr. Chairman, the hog producers are having problems. That precisely is why there was a grant to the Newfoundland Fann Products Corporation to support the price to hog producers, as we have been doing. Not a hand out, not a give away, but they support floor price, which is recoverable when the price rises above a certain established base line. We think that is a good system, it is working and our hog producers, Mr.

Chairman, are not suffering nearly as much as hog producers in certain other provinces, because they are getting some assistance. They are getting assistance because it is a valuable industry. There are about 500 people in the poultry industry. I do not know precisely how many in hogs, but I would say it is not too short, those involved in one way or another in the raisi~g,trucking, slaughtering, the marketing of hogs, I estimate certainly in excess of 300 jobs. That is worth keeping. If we believe what we hear from the other side a few days ago, Mr.

Chairman, about subsidizes and special help in hard times, in another context admittedly, and as to whether, the Government are going to protect the hog producers, as the hon. the member for St. John's East advocates-- I do not know how he can in terms of his attempt to wipe out the marketing board, but he does advocate a marketing boa~d for hog producers. That, Sir, is the right and decision of the hog producers, not of the Government. If the hog producers want a marketing board, the legislation is there, the procedure ~s there, all they have to-do is decide among themselves that they want it.

If they want it, they will have to follow the same procedure as the poultry producers followed and they will have to have a plebscite and, when they get the result, then they can come and produce to the Newfoundland Marketing Board evidence that the ·hog producers of this Province want that action taken. 'T'hen, if the action is taken, they will become subject to the Newfoundland Marketing Board, which is not a producer hoard, which is a public agency,with small business and comsumer representation on it1 and that board will decide whether it is in the public interest to have a marketing 3481

May 13, 1971 Tape 625 (,morning) PK - 2 MR. CALLAHAN: plan or a marketing scheme for hog production. But the crunch, Mr. Chairman, has been in eggs, because this is where we are self-sufficient and the closer you get to self-sufficiency the bigger your industry is and the more it needs to be protected, if you have the kind of situation that is happening elsewhere. So this is why the egg producers were the first. ~hey were three years badgering me and other members of the Government to get the board in and,as the House knows,! reported on this for two years running.

We did not wish to bring in a marketing board that would establish prices at the levels to which they were two years ago, to which I have already referred. We brought a board in, Mr. Chairman, at a time when there was relative satisfaction among conslDl!ers and producers and retailers and wholesalers 1 wi.th the level of price, and that is the level that obtained on last September 1,which was about sixty-two cents, which is about the most reasonable level we have ever had, the average level of egg prices in this Province. The hon. the member for St.

John's East tells :us that we could stand a lot of chaos, such as they have in Nova Scotia. So he is not only marking off the marking board, Mr. Chairman, he is prepared to write off our whole industry. The whole agriculture industry, the egg industry, any part of it. I have to wonder at his motive.

But, it is a fact, this is what he said, "we could stand a lot of chaos • ." When I say we cannot stand a lot of chaos, because the development of agriculture,in which we announced ,another $1 million investment yesterday,backed up_,!'y the Government of Canada,with th~ highest level of grant for this kind of complex that they have ever given in ,.~-r Canada. WE! can only,.. afford to lose what we have, Mr. Chairman, but we also cannot afford not to take advantage of the room for growth that we have.

One of the absolute needs,at this time, until,as I have said before, until a better system is found, this Province has not only the right. but the duty to protect its primary producers. This is what the marketing board is doing and it is open to do for more producers groups, those who want it. This is what ever other province in this country has done and has been doing for 34~2

May 13, 1971 Tape 625 (morning} PK - 3 MR. CALLAHAN: forty years or fifty years. This is what the Supreme Court of Canada the said provinces had the tight to do and the lower courts in a series of decisions over a period of thirty years. This, Mr. Chairman, is what this House unamimously four years ago said should be done. Hon. members on the other side,who are now speaking against the Newfoundland Marketing Board and supporting the Amendment,are the same hon. members who four years ago got up and with pretty empty words, it now turns out, told the Rouse what was needed to protect our agriculture industry.

Well, I say, Mr. Chairman, that when the word gets out, as it is getting out incidentally, and I ran into it yesterday on the West Coast, it is just going to be another big fat nail in a pretty crenk.y tory casket. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, if I may, and-it has been stated by both, the hon. the Premier and the hon. minister who just sat down that this side of the House were solid behind a Newfoundland Farm Marketing Board. There is not one word of a lie in that, that is the absolute truth. The absolute truth.

When we were speaking of farming, Sir, we had in mind what a farmer usually grows, potato~s, turnips, cabbage, so on and so forth, and if ever any group, Mr, Chatrman, needed help that was these gentleman who were farmers. But, what has happened to the farmer? What has happened to our potato crop? What has happened to the thousands of bags of turnips that are lying in storage in the Musgrave Town, Lethbridge area? They are still there. But, eggs and hogs, we have gone whole hog on both these products. We have heard over the past couple of years many discussions on these particular items.

The Premier, perhaps, is one of the most concerned people about eggs and hogs. I remember a few years back, when the Premier was having one of his usual long speeches on hogs and he described these famous hogs and the shape of their hips, and the shapes of their backs, I remarked at the time, I thought he was referring to Marilyn Monroe. But, if we go back just a year ago, just about, when the hon. the member for Fumber East was speaking on farming and the Premier jumped into the breach,and he says in one part;'then we l ' hear this arrogant nonsense, nonsense about our people going tarming and 34~3

May 13, 1971 Tape 625 (morning) Pk - 4 MR. MURPHY: growing spuds." Arrogant nonsense about our people growing spuds. Now, if there is anything in this Prdlvince ,. as far as the maximum consumption is concerned it is a potato or our prtatoes. I The Premier took the hon. member for Humber East to task and':he says: !•-·. even here in St. John's you can get a better living, you can live better. The families here live better, even paying rent, than the present existence that mos~ farming will produce for our people here on the island. Now that may be• fact. I am not arguing against that.

Because, I know if there is anybody up against it in this Province, it is the people that are trying to carry on, to carry on a bit of farming,-That has for so many years, perhaps, provided a bare existence for a great number of our people,in the hard years. But now we hear so much about the Farm Marketing Board, but all we-hear is eggs, eggs, eggs, eggs. It has been maintained by certain people that the Premier has a vested interest in the egg market. True or False, I do not know. But oan ar.gument at the time, Mr.

Chairman, and I will say this; when we heard that there would b"e a Farm Marketing Board, we were very enthus~astic for tt:~ - We supported it one hundred precent. Because of the fact, in our opinion, with some help we could maintain farming, not as a great industry but as a supporting industry for a great many of our people in this Province, at least, what amazes me; when we hear about farming going out:, this going out~with the millions of people in the world that are hungry today~and still farmers have to get out of business.

When w"e think of the great CodroJ Valley ~hich was properly called, I 'think, "The # • Bread ~asket · of-lie,wfoundland,a~ one time, and from my own experience,making a tour of that area,and a great~disappointment I experienced, Sir, when I saw the rundown condition of the farms etc •. there, and what I actually saw, huge trucks peddling from door to door, like we used to see the Torbaymen and so on and so forth here in the City of St. John's~ coming across on the ferry 1 peddling their products.fresh meat 1 potatoes and cabbages and what have you.

I thought to myself 1 what has Confederation done to this particular area? 34~4

May 13, 1971 Tape 625 (morning) PK - 5 MR. MURPUY: The Premier's pet topic of course is: Confederation was one of the greatest blessings under God to come to Newfoundland; and there~re not too many who disagree with that. fffi. Sf!ALLWOOD: The greatest. MR. MURPHY: Not one of the greatest - the greatest. tm. SMALLWOOD: Next to life. MR. MURPHY: Next to life. Well, life I presume is the greatest gift that God could give to anyone. When I saw this, Mr.

Chairman, I came back here1 I was then a member of the House and we discussed between ourselves the farm situation, what can be done for the farmer who - read the report. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MURPHY: I did not have that one four years ago. J:fR. CALLAHAN: You have it now. MR. MURPHY: We have it now, it is about time. Well, this is after twenty- two years, Mr. Chairman, let us not forget that fact. In this present session we have seen great,more schemes on farming so on and so forth,projected by this Government than we have for the past twenty-two years.

Speaking with farmers and listening to the farm programmes and hearing on radio last night where the hon. minister had made another great show in Corner Brook.opening up this great centre for the collection of eggs, etc, which I think, is a wonderful thing. Possibly he could have had made the announcement here in the House, the House was opened on this. But, you know, he is like the rest of the members~had to go and have a great meeting to announce all of this. We some~times wonder, Sir, what is the chance of survival for our farmers? When - MR. CALLAHAN: Inaudible. MR.

MURPHY: It was easy to get invitations, except for us on this side. The Premier possibly thinks that I am somewhat of a strange animal, ·expecting to be invited, not Ank Murphy but the Leader of the Opposition,to\Government functions. I cannot see it at all. I cannot understand it. I cannot understand it. 34~5

May 13, 1971 Tape 625 (morning) PK - S ~m.. CALLAHAN: Inaudible. MR. MURPHY: From the people surely, get out and meet your people. Get out and meet your people. We have heard . over the years, Sir. while I have been in the House, great schemes for developing great sheep herds.

We have heard about the conditions of the farm and .while I am on this, Sir, I will refer to the discussion that '.w.s taken place with reference to Americans buying up vacant land, I do not know just how serious it is, but I have been infonned by very good sources that there are many pieces of farm land lying idle in the Codroy Valley and people wanting to expand - Mll. CALLAHAN: The people who were living on it have left. MR. MURPHY: People who have left, and left the land vacant in many cases, with no one there, other people wanting to buy this land.

The suggestion was made that possibly on vacant farm lands,and I am talking about absentee owners, landlords now,that if there were a tax of some kind put on it, this land, that is only being held for speculation,apparently.I mn not thoroughly , conversant, but 1 had one call from a gentleman who was familiar Mth it., yesterday,that a tax mighfenable other people,perhaps who are 1110re industrious, to develop these vacant lands. But, Mr.

Chairman, from what 1 can acertain f?:om the price of eggs in this Province,with the Egg Marketing Board benefits are bought to a number of our poultry producers. :But, the great majority of the people who are struggling, Sir, to meet the cost D'f living are the one that are paying the price. I am wondering, Sir, with reference to the Musgrave Town area, is it the Government's idea perhaps to p1Jt facilities there] 1 have seen it on T. V.1 where there is some space there, but it is not at all adequate - the lldnister announced it two or three days ago. HR. CALLAHAN: lnaud:ible.

MR. 'MURPHY: Good.1 Excellentl I am certainly pleased to hear it. 1 may not have been in the House at the time. 34~6

Hay 13, 1971 Tape 625 (morning) PK - 7 MR. }nJRPl!Y: Dairy farming, Sir, is another tough proposition here in this Province. But, I feel, Mr. Chairman, if we are to set up marketing boards then I think, the primary _consideration should have been given to farm products as such, root crops, instead of what is happening now· There is a monopoly to certain egg producers, Jt is not a monopoly in a sense, but great benefits accrue to certain poultry producers and to hog raisers.

A~ far as I am concerned, Sir, I certainly hope that the time is very near when this Government will tackle very seriously the problem of the root crop framer, as vigorously as they have tackled the Egg }!arketing Board. That is all I can say, Sir. I was in favour of this when it was brought before the House, a Farm Marketing !J<>ard,and I am just as much in favour of it today, Sir. If the benefits are spread to include all our farmers ,not one particular segment that, perhaps, the Premier is so much interested in because he believes it is going to be a viable industry.

But to vote any monies for Farm Marketing Board 1 for ,root crops,by this Government seems rather strange to me, when the Premier only last year held out no hope whatever, Sir, for the growing of spuds or any other product in the root crop line. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, it may interest the committee to know that 140 years ago here on this Island more potatoes were grown than are grown now, more turnips were . grown than are grown now, there were more hogs kept than there are kept now, a .nd probably there were more hens than there are hens now, 140 years ago.

And, of course, it is the utter revolution, social revolution that has occurred,that has made the difference. There was a time when virtually every family kept hens, raised two or three hogs each year and grew their own potatoes and turnips an~ cabbage, virtually every family, ?here was that time, l'IOt since any of us in this Chamber at this moment were born, it was before we were born.

Newfoundland.with a third of the population, she now has, with a quarter of the population she now has, one-quarter of her present population, Newfoundland produced more potatoes and turnips and cabbage, pork, mutton, lamb, and probably eggs than she does today.

May 13. 1971 Tape 625 (morning) PK - 8 MR. SMALLWOOD: Nov is there a moral to be ctrawn f'fODI that? Tllere is, and the moral to be drawn from it is this 1 that subsistence farming has beCOJ11e virtually a thing of the past. Since the day cash wages arrived in Newfoundland, 111en pref er to go - ... 34~8

!'ay 13, 1971, Tape 626, Page 1 -- apb }'orning. and earn cash wares and to use the cash , war,es to buy the thinp,s that they used to 1row and raise. They now prefer to buy them with cash. There uas a t:!Me in i;ewfoundland and I retrember this vividly, there was a time in Newfoundland when the amount of canned foods for sale in the shops was trifling. The nl.JJ!'ber in variety and value of tinned foods sold over the counter in newfoundland was trifling, utterly triflinr.:. People grew their foods or did without the!!'.. Only very few of them bought canned or bottled goods in the sl1ops.

I am speakinr, of course of food. Subsistance farming has all but disappeared in this Province. The only kind of farming that is serious now is col!mlercial farming. Do you know that there is a man down in Gambo, Paul Thoms, who last year grew I do not know how ~any hundreds of tons of potatoes? MR. COLLINS: About one thousand barrels so I am told. ~'R. st-'ALLWOOD· How much? !'R-_S:QL!,_INS_:_ About one thousand barrels. I do not know if that is an exaggeration or not. ?'R.. S!·1ALLt-OOD: Oh it is more than one thousand barrels I would say. n. COLLINS: They are all plowed back into the ground. MR.

SFALLWOOD: This year they are going to grow fifty acres of potatoes. Beautiful land, beautiful soil, and what they are going to do in fact, this year,is atter!pt to~grow seed potatoes. They are going to attempt to supply the Newfoundland t:1.arket for seed potatoes so that there would not be any need to import seed potatoes. They are going to grow them out in Central Ne~foundland,on the banks of the Gander River. They have potato harvestinr- equipment that will harvest five acres a day. Five acresl They will tal~e the potatoes out of the ground at the rate of five acres of potatoes daily.

Five acres of potatoes is a huee slice of land. There are very few farms on the Island of 3489

:•ay 13, 1971, Tape 626, Pas:,,e 2 -- apt-, 11orning. Newfoundland today with five acres, ,·ery few with five acres of cultivated land, 1:xtrerely few farms. There ,-10uld not be 300 would there,in the whole Province? Five acres of cultivated land? AN Hotl. 1rp.'Jlr:P: r:ot in potatoes. !'I'. S''ALLPflC'D: _ Not in anythin!! • There would not be 300 fanr .s on this island today containin!! at least as much as five acres of cultivated land, not 30C in the whole Province.

When you talk of a potato farm that will r,row fifty acres of potatoes and with eriuiproent: that will harvest the potatoes frorn five acres a day, t-en days and they tal-:e out the crop fror, fifty acres of potatoes_ hirhly ~echanized. That sa~e fan:t has spraying equipment, which when the arms are stretched,out would reach from the end of this row here to the r-rinister of Agriculture. It will go down longer, almost the length of this fuli front bench. It will do a swath that width , go do'l'-m to the end of the field, turn around and cornc hack and do a parallel swRth.

It only has to go over it a few t:inies and it has it sprayed with insecticides and so on.for the destruction of injurious insects and weeds and so on. -In other words, Hr. Chairman, what we are taU:ing about is co1MT1ercial farminr,. Tielieve me, believe ne, that is the only kind of farming apart from subsistance • . Nobody on the earth can cor.ipete with a man frowinr, his own potatoes for his own home. There is no way to compete with that. Apart from that~ farmin~ to be successful has to be commercial or it cannot co!:!pete. It cannot- no way.

If Ne,:foundland, with half a million souls,is to produce as many potatoes as she did with 100,000 souls, one fifth of our population, or 120 thousand or 130 thousand people, she can do it,not by resurninp: subsistance farminr, t•rhich they are not goin~ to do. Is anyone goinr to argue here that you can get the people of Newfoundland to go back to the subsistance farming? Is anyone r.oing to argue that seriously? Surely not, surely not. The only way to do it is to have comr.iercial farmin!?. There is no other way. 3490

!~y 13, 1~71, Tape F2F, Page 3 -- aph Mornin~. The Leader of the Opposition is puzzled about somethinR. Ee is puzzled. He cannot understand it. Why it is that the first 6ooperative ''arketinf or Controlled :•arl:etinr Board is the one to market e~i;r.s. •·uhy not pork?" he says. ~lR. !'l:RPHY: . That is the only one. HR. S1!ALLl!OOD: It is the only one? MR. ?-!URPHY: It n,ay be. MR. S!'ALLWOOD: It is the first and only one there is, so far. HR. ?-!l;RPIIY.: I said maybe I did not say it will be, it may be. the only one. n. SHALLWOOD: Oh no, that is nonsense. 'HR. ?.qJRPHY: It is not nonsense. ?-IR.

SVALLWOOD: Well maybe the hon. gentler.,an is right maybe the other producers will not have a ~Arketing Board. This could be. If they want it they will h.rve it. AN HON. HD'EER: They do want it. MR. !.?.f.ALLWOOD: If they want it they will have it. If they do not want it th.ey will not have it. The initiative is entirely theirs. The law is there to allow them to do it>if they want it. If they want it, there is nothing to stop them. If they do not ·want. .. it, there is nothing to force them.

It is entirely their own decision, entirely,as it was entirely the decision of the egg producers, ls there anything wrong with that? ls there anything wrong~with the egg producers wanting it? Would there be anything wrong with the pork producers wanting it? Would there be anything wrong with the milk producers wanting it? Would there? ls there anything wrong with their wanting their own Marketing Board? Would there be anything wrong with the potato growers wanting their own Marketing Board? Would there be anything wrong with that?

If there is, then it is equally wrong for workers to want to organize unions,is it not? You have something to sell. You have your labour, your time to sell. 3491

?'.ay 13, 1971, TApe 626, Page 4 -- apb Norning. MR . MURPHY: The Premier is saying now that the root crop people just do not want .••• MP... Sf!ALLWOOD: I am not saying that they want or they do not want. I say if they want, they can have it. If they do not want,they cannot be forcel. The decision is theirs. }1R • ?-fL'RPHY : The point I am making is this: They do not want it apparently or we would have had this one in the same as the Egg }1arketing Board. Am I right on that? MR . S!'ALLWOOD: No, that is not good logic.

It might have been that the egg producers were the first to want it badly enough to decide to have it. Other may want to have it but they did not want it as soon as the egg producers did. I would venture to guess that the next crowd that are going to want a 1,larketing Board will be the pork producers. Anything wrong with that? MR. MURPHY: lfo, but it is rather ••• HR. SMALLWOOD: No. Anything sinister about it? }'R. ?-IURPHY: It is rather a coincidence that these are the HR. \ . S~'ALLWOOD: No, no, I am interested in every aspect of farming, more so than any man in this House.

There is no hon. member in this o: , House who has even a beRinning 1a~~uch interest as I have in farming, every aspect of it, every last aspect of it. I am terribly interested in it. I believe that some aspects of it have better chances than others. ~'R. l'llJRPHY: Why is it arrant nonsense then to talk about growing spuds? MR. SMALLWOOD: It is arrant nonsense to talk about growinp, spuds except colTll!lercially, on a commercial 1:-asis. The same thing applies by the way to egg production. To strawberry production if you like.

There is nothing to stop a man having a little strawberry patch behind his house . or in front=of his house,to grow a few strawberries, but, if a man is going to grow strawberries commercially he has to do it on 3492

?:ay 13, 1971, Tape 626', Page 5 -- apb Morning. a commercial scale. Surely he has. Is that not common sense? I believe, I do believe, especially as our population grows, we could get up to one million people in this Province. It is going to take some doing, but if we could get up to one million people that would be a pret'ty respectable 111arket for commercial far111s operating efficiently on this island and even in Labrador. This could be respectable market. It is not too respectable now, it is only a half million people.

I think there is a distinct possibility of doing it, and certainly we cannot afford in Newfoundland to turn down any good possibilities. But, to sneer at the Hark,etin~ Board, to sneer at it, to hint, to make hints, dirty hints, to make a dirty insinuation about it.is not .helpful. 1 do not think it is helpful to do anything. I do not think it is helpful to the Board. I do not think it is helpful to the producers. I do not think it is helpful to the peo~le who indulge in that kind of sneering. I do not think it is helpful. I do not think it helps anybody. I do not think lt helps the consumer.

If you want to help the consumer, if you want to help the consumer start making the welkin ring about the difference there is between the prices the producers get for their eigs and the prices the public pays. Start making the welkin rint? on that. We do it with fish do we not. We make the welkin ring about the differen~ between the price the fisherman gets for his ·fish and the price the public pay for that same fish. We make the welkin ring about that, do we not?

We recognize, do we not, that there is a big gap, a big spread, a big difference between what the fisherman gets for his fish and the consumer pays for the fish. Do we not make the welkin ring about that? Do we not get indir,nant about it? Do we not? Why do we not get indignant about the spread bcti,een the price the producer gets, the man who goes out and does the work, invests the money, borrows the money to do it, gambles to do it, the price that he iets and the price that the public pay! Not what the 3493

:-•ay J 3, 1971, Tape f-2r, rage 6 -- apb Morning. pul,lic pay him ,the producer, what the public pay the shopkeeper, the difference between what the shopl:eeper gets from the public and what the producer gets from the shopkeeper. Why do we not make the welkin ring about that? We hear from the minister a spread of twenty-four cents. I will tell you !1r. Chairman, if the epg producers in Newfoundland today could count on five cents a dozen clear, that is one quarter of the spread right? No, one fifth of the spread between what the producers are getting and the public are paying.

If the producers in Newfoundland could get five cents a dozen clear on their eggs, with all their investment and all their gamble, five cents a d .ozen in a couple of years would wipe out all debts on the poultry farms in Newfoundland. Five cents a dozen. Lose five cents a dozen and that is a difference of ten cents. You go deeper in debt at the bank, deeper all the time. Deeper in debt you go at the bank.by losing money on it. You do not hear of the supermarkets going broke do you? Do you? Any talk, any big talk about the big superr.arkets going broke, failing, going in debt to the banks?

I have not heard of any. Do not talk about that. Talk about the egg producers. Why? Why does the Opposition talk about the Egg Marketing Board? tlhy? Do you want to !:now the reason why? Because they think I am in the egg business. That is their big matter of principle. Up on the high principle they are ~alking aow, They are only taking a stand on principle, th'"a.t is all. ?-'R. CROSBIE: Right. Mn~ NEARY: Guttersnipes. MR • S1-'ALLWOOD: Because they think I am interested in the egg industry. Well, I am very deeply interested in it, in the hog indu.stry and in all kinds of farming.

I am not interested financially, personally, but I am aeeply interested. I do not care who owns the farms, I am deeply interested, 1,herever there is a farm in Newfoundland· and wanting to 3494

}'ay 13, 1971, TApe 626, Page 7 -- apb Horning. succeed, I am desperately for every farmer in Newfoundland to succeed, and there are 3,500 of them_ three thousand five hundred. A triflinr, proportion,we are told here today,of our population. So they are a trifling proportion. Do you know th!!! proportion that the fishermen are in the economy of Canada? The question was asked in the rouse of Commons the other day on that very matter. What did the £ishing industry of Canada -constitute in Canada's economy? Do you know what it came to Mr. Chairman, that we, all of us get excited about here in Newfoundland?

Decreasingly they are excited in Nova_ Scotia, but less and less every year. They are even less excited in New Brunswick. They get a bit excited in British Columbia. It is not much, just a little bit. It is we here in Newfoundland who get excited about the fishing industry. Do you know what the fishing industry amounts to in Canada? Of the Canadian economy? Take all the ten Provinces. Take the salt water and fresh water fisheries, all ten Provinces,on the Atlantic and on the Pacific Ocean, do you know what the whole fishing irldustry of Canada amounts to? One point three percent,! think it is.

One percent, a little fraction over one cent to the dollar, thE Canadian dollar, a little over one cent is fish. Ninety-nine cents are motor cars, aeroplanes, minerals, papermills and what have you. One percent of the Canadian economy. ... In Newfoundland, the egg producers are only a small proportion. The 'hog producers are even smaller. So, we put them in the gas ovens? Right! We make away with them? Right! They,_are too small. They are not worthy of any serious attention.are they? Why should they get any sympathy? Why should they get any help? Why should they not? I will tell you why they should not.

Because it is thought that I am connected with it. Right? I was connected with the greatest treasure ever found in the whole gammit of Newfoundland's history. I 3495

1-'ay 13, 1971, Tape 626, Page 8 -- apb Morning. happened to find it, but it turns out to he worthless. I was taken for a ride. I was had. Poor yokel, poor ignoramous, poor illiterate who knows nothing about rewfoundland history. I was just taken for a ride by some mi.art alecY. sales~an in London. So the greatest treasure that has ever been found in our history is worthless. l·:hy is it worthless? For the same reason that Egg ¥arketing Boards should be attacked. The sa~e reason, ~o greater reason, no worse than that. The same reason, high principle, taking the high ground, standing on · ' high principles.

I do hope that the minister will persevere in this matter. He has the kind of - in fact, he has so much of a strong will that he - I am glad that he is devoting it to a great cause. The cause of trying to save the farm interests in Newfoundland. If it is true that there are 3,500 Newfoundlanders making their living out of farming, 3,500 ••• MR. l!URPHY: Out of egg production,how many were there? ?'R. SPALLWOOD: Egg production? Three or four hundred. MR. CALLAHAN: It is higher than that. ? :.R. SJ-rALLWOOD. 5()0 HR. CALLAHAN: 3,500 ?-!R.

SFALLWOOD: tlell the hon. gentleman says it is not a fact and the minister says it is a fact. I take the minister's word. I take the minister's word. I take the minister's opinion. I take the minister's information, and any hon. member of this Rouse who starts arguing with the minister on matters of fact is making a fool of himself. Because, one thing he knows is his facts. Another thing he does is his homework. 3496

May 13, 1971 Tape 627 (morning) PK - l MR. SMALLWOOD: He does his homework. He knows what he is talking about every . time he opens his mouth, he knows what he is talking about. If he says_ there are 2,000 people making a living out of farming and 1,500 more making a part of their living out of farming and these are Newfoundlanders and they live in this Province, I am all for them. I am all for them, r ot only if they grow potatoes, but whatever they grow, whatever they produce, I am all for them. I am for the men,up in Harbour Main District, who rear beef cattle.

I am for men up on the Cape Shore, who rear some beef cattle. I am for the men all over Newfoundland who grow potatoes. I am for the men and the women, especially the women who rear sheep in Newfoundland. I am all for them. I want to help. I do not want to knock them. I do not want to throw cold water on them. I do not want to throw doubt on them. I want to be with them. I want to identify myself with them. Why not? They are Newfoundlanders. They are not sharpers. They are not sharpers. They are not living by their wits. They are living by hard work, honest work, honest toil,with mother nature.

Why do we abandon them? Why do we snear at them? Even if I am·connected with farming, does that make farming dirty? Does it make it contemptible? Does it make it something - after all I am associated with the Province of Newfoundland too, you know, That makes Newfoundland a filty place, because Joey is connected with it? Is anything that I am connected with just automatically to be condemned? There is no better reason that they have given yet for condemning the Marketing Board. There is no better reason than tha~~ Let us smarten up. Let us smarten up. HR.

EARLE: I think I make my position abundantly clear the other day when we were discussing this. I am not against a marketing board under any sense. But what we are trying to ask here, in spite of all the rhetoris and vocal expression and so on,that we are just against everything. This is so ridiculous. It does not need repetition, it has been repeated so often in this session of the House.

But there does need to be some questions asked,for the very simple reason that the Premier himself made a very alarming statement.Uhen he opened his remarks he said that there are probably less potatoes grown in Newfoundland today, and less turnips, and possibly even less eggs produced today than there were one hundred years ago.

May 13, 1971 Tape 627 (morning) MR. CALLAHAN: He did not say that. MR. EARLE: He indicated there might be. MR. CALLAHAN: Less hens. PK - 2 MR. F.ARLE: Less hens, I do not know if each hen is producing more eggs or what.This is a matter on which the minister can inform me. I am not an agriculturist, :-. if he is. But the point is this, in saying so the Premier touched upon one of the greatest tragedies that ever happened to Newfoundland. Of course, Newfoundland is not alone in this type of tragedy, it is happening all over the world, How it can be prevented, is another matter.

But the fact remains that it has happened All over Newfoundland, over the last twenty or twenty-five years, it has a·ccelerated. 'there is a great tragedy,. t'he fact that· there are less turnips produced, less potatoes produced and so on than there were one hundred years ago. ?here are alee less coopers, there are less shoemakers, there are less little industrial fellows working in their own particular orbit, producing things In fact, I would venture to bet tpat on the average percentage of the population there are less people working today, really working today,than there were one hundred years ago.

Because in those days everybody worked to assist. ~hey had to. ~f they did not work they just st~r-ved and that was the whole point about it. But today we have a situation which has developed where able men and good men in many respects have so gotten into the rut that they can sit back and expect a cheque from the Govenuaent,week in and week out, month in and month out,and -not to attempt in anyway to support themselves or · their families.

This is one of the major tragedies in Newfoundland, because what it has done to our people,and you only have to travel around the various outports, what it has done to so many of these formally fine people who came from good stock is pathetic. No man can sit in idleness and not do anything, without deteri6rating to such an extent that it is unbelievable. I an not such a fool, Mr. Chairman, to think that we can revert to kitchen gardening or to the subsistence fishing or all these little trades that I mentioned that, I am afraid,are lost and gone forever.

But somewhere between that and existence on Government handouts, there must be a happy 3498

May 13, 1971 Tape 627 (morning) MR. EARLE: medium. There must be something whi~h can be done,and so far nobody has shown enough intelligence to find the answer. Because PK - 3 in nwnerous places around this Province the same land is still there, the same fish are still in the sea, The same opportunities still exist, the yet there are young men and old men and young women and old women growing up completely use:fto idleness, which is,in my books, ' the greatest tragedy which could befall them.

Just as an illustration; I had a very fine family in one place which I represent and the youngest son in that particular family, it is a large family, they have a lot of children, the youngest son in that family had had some impediments·since birth, not a serious impediment to the extent that he could not do hard work, but he could not gain a really good education, but still he was am ambitious boy and very anxious to help himself. He wrote to me and I in turn wrote to the hon. Minister of Agriculture, because he wanted to try to start some small farming on his own.

Because of the regulations and the law,he was not of an age that he could be assisted,and I know the minister and his department were quite within their rights legally in refusing this particular chap assistance in that work. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: Well a regulation or a licence or whatever it may be, they possibly could not do it. But in such cases, where a young man who sees no future for himself whatsoever but is not anxious to sit around and do nothing,doe~ ask for help, assistan~e and guidance in some way.

I should think that any Government or any officials should bend over backwards to try to do that for such a person. There are altogether too many people who will not try to help themselves, but people who will help themselves are those that we should most certainly encourage. KR.. CALLAHAN: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: Well legally or not legally, I think you cannot strangle young men or young women in red tape, This is nonsense. This is utter arrogant nonsense, if there were ever a statement made in this House that is complete 3499

May 13. 1971 Tape 627 (morning) Pk - 4 MR. EARLF.: and absolute nonsense, The fact that young men and young people who are interested to work are barred by a legality is just so foolish that it is - MR. CALLAHAN: When the law is .,an _ass, it is not the people. MR. EARLE: Well in this case the law is an ass. I will go and say that categorically, because any man who wants to work and cannot be assisted to work, the law is an ass, if it prevents him from working. I chall~nge anybody to deny.that. But, what I am saying, Mr.

Chairman, somewhere along the line of a Marketing Board and the way we see agriculture and just about everything else developing today, as the Premier has so amply said, is developing •long the lines of a big,huge opent:Con,-where you can only produce eggs if you can produce 50,000 of them or 100,000 or 5 million of them. You can only produce turnips, if you produce hundreds of thousands of them, and so on. This is again getting away from a labour-intensive industry into an industry that employs very, very few people.

This is what has caused the tragedy of Newfoundland, because in other lands where people have been flocking away from the faI'll)s and leaving the fishing boats and so on,as they are doing all over the world, ~hese people are only doing so to go into other forms of employment. Right th~oughout Europe and North American where boys are leaving the farms and so on,they are finding something else to do. But here in Newfoundland, we have not'_ yet provided that something else for them to do, .J?O they leave the farms and leave the fishing boats .and they are idle.

The tragedy which I have mentioned so often in these remarks,ds that in the inter:lm_period,between the time that these fellows do find something to do and the time that they leave their fishing boats or their farms, there must be some sort of a system develop where they can find an occupation to keep them from being idle. We have them.even now today#coming out of University and the Trade Schools and they are still idle. What is this 35GO

Hay 13, 1971 Tape 627 (morning) Pk - 5 MR. EARLE: going to do to Newfoundland? If you have young people walking around without a hope in the world and with very little encouragement,what is it going to them? It is the major problem of Government. A marketing board is not going to solve that. A marketing boa~d is going to cut down employment and going to ~ut back employinent. It is going to make fewer people do more production, yet it will not offer the solution to all these fellows walking the streets.

Now I was only inspired to make these remarks by something the Premier said 0 I did not intend to go into a speech a$ain, but I had in mind to ask the minister a couple of questions. This vote here is $70,000, which I presume is the operating expense of the 1118rketing board. On the next page we see a Grant In Aid of $100,000.

Now the same question I asked the other day on another vote pertains,! suppose that the $70,000 is not the full cost of the marketing board, there is $100,000 coming back,does not give us $30,000 profit, because there must be involved in this a lot of salaties and so on which are not shown onder this vote of $70,000. So what this committee needs to know, and what it should be told very plainly in a discussion of this sort is;what is the Newfoundland Marketing Board actually costing? What it has cost in the past.' And what it is going to cost in the future.

The capital cost there is $1,500,000 to be spent this year on what? We must know. AN HON. MEMBER: Marketing facilities. MR. EARLE: Marketing facilities. Wel~, what proportion of it applies to the Market Board, if any? MR. CALLAHAN: Nothing. MR. EARLE: Nothing. Well, what does the Marketing Board actually cost in total,in salaries, in operating expenses and in yearly loss? This is what I should like to know and this is really the only way in which we can judge whether it is a worthy operation and worthy of our support.

What is it costing to do this job,in net figures after the grant in aid has been deducted year by year? What is it anticipated iC is going to cost in the future? Now before I sit down, Mr. Chairman, I for one,on this side of the House, 3501

May 13, 1971 Tape 627 (morning) PK - ,, MR, EARLE: could not care less whether the Premier himself is producing eggs or not producing eggs. I do not think this has anything to do with the argument. I would not hint at any · such thing and I do not care, I could not care less, all I am interested in, Hr. Chairman, are ·the ducks eggs the Premier has laid in the past and the likely ducks eggs he will lay in the future and,if it should develop that this Marketing Board may develop into another duck's egg, then we have reason to ask questions . MR. HICKMAN: Ducks eggs, that is eggs laid by a duck? MR. EARLE: True.

If it develops in no results,in other words, then we have every right to ask questions. But, so far we have been discussing this item for ·a good many hours now. I do not ·think that we are much further advanced because it appears to me ;hat it is largely a theory which has yet to prove itself. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, before we carry this, I would like to have a word or two to say regarding agriculture in particular• This is what the conversation seems to be centered around this morning.

Certainly, when one looks at the figures, the consumption figures for Newfoundland,of potatoes and carrots, turnips and cabbage, onions and other vegetables, when we look at the supply, the amount which is grown in Newfoundland, it is easy for anyone to see that there is a need for a lot of incentives to our farmers if we are going to close that gap. There is no doubt about that at all. We seem to be obsessed in Newfoundland, Mr. Chairman, with being good consumers and we also seem to have Mobsession that anything which i~ consumed,better quality is always available from outside of the Province.

Nothing could be further from the truth, because I know that local potatoes .and local carrots and onions and so on and so forth, the quality is much better th~n what we import from the mainland. Now there is another aspect to this, Mr. Chairman.-fo should be trying to close the gap between production and consU111ption. Certainly we must recognize that there is a great need for employment in Newfoundland,for jobs. I do not know how many jobs can be created through agriculture but certainly it is a field where much work have to be done. Very little has been done in the past.

Certainly we must look to the future and try and improve the

May 13, 1971 Tape 627 (morning) PK - 7 MR. COLLINS: facilities, encourage the farmers,through subsidies and different methods, measure grants, if you want to. I would not suggest that we subsidize farmers to the extent where the consumer is going to suffer too much, but certainly there should be more done in the form of measured grants, This could be deterrnined,as to the level of the subsidy could be determined, by trying to establish if it is better to subsidize them or have them on welfare rolls of one sort or another. Getting back to the need for jobs, Mr.

Chairman, the DBS figures in February of this year show there ware 23,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed or 15.2 percent. I remember the Premier saying at that time that, well, it was pretty high, there is no doubt about that, but this was the peak. In other words this was the worse time of the year and things would improve as we went alone. The March figures came out, Mr. Chairman, which showed 23,000 still unemployed. The same percentage. The April figures,which were released today, Mr.

Chairman, shows there are 25,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed,for a percentage of 16.4 percent, which means that the condition is worsening, while the Premier said that, we had reached the peak in February. Everybody was hoping that he was right. Obviously, we had not reached the peak. Now we find that there are more Newfoundlanders unemployed than there were in Febrµary. This, in my opinion, Sir, is a very shocking situation. It is a v~ry distrubing situation. In view of the fact that the construction season is upon us, certainly, if work is to get going it should be going now.

Farmers are wanting to get into fields, they do not know where to tum for funds, where to turn for credit. As far as I am concerned, Sir, it is about time that the Premier and the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources and the other ministers began to take a look around Newfoundland and see just is what happening to our economy. Look at the tremendous loss in terms of human resources. The _potential is there but the opportunity is lacking. Those figures, Mr. Chairman, is far as I am concemed,are disgraceful Probably some ministers over there might like to give us there opinion 3503

May 13, 1971 Tape 627 (morning) PK - 8 MR. COLLINS: of why this is? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, I was asked a couple of questions and I have a little information that I would say I would try to give on the Newfoundland Marketing Board. The estimates provides for the salaries of the Chairman, $16,290; the Executive Manager $12,000; I might indicate to the committee, the Chairman is Mr. A. C. Badcock, who I have no hesitation in saying is the most senior and the most experienced official of the Government,in the agriculture field, in the Province. His Executive Manager is Mr. A.C.

Hutchings, who was an Assistant Director of Agriculture to Mr. Badcock in the old orgaization of the division. So these two gentlemen moved over together because they for many years have been a quite admirable team, and we wanted to have the most experienced and knowledgeable people we could find to put in charge of the operation of the marketing board,to ensure that. it did what it has to do in order to conform with the intent of the legislation passed by this House. There is a research officer who is really~ this position has provided for an economist at $10,000. There are two field supervisors MR.

SMALLWOOD: Rould the hon. the member for St. John's West sit down and stay there, not going every ten minutes to confer with him, take his place and sit with him and not try to hide it. MR. CALLAHAN: It certainly would remove aome confusion in the minds of the House, Mr. Chairman. MR. SMALLWOOD: Thie walking back and .. •forth makes us dicay. AN HON • . MfilIBER: I think it is some kind of a disease. MR. CALLAHAN: It might be a rotten egg. There are two field supervisors, MR. Chairman, the total salary for two being $17,520. Three shorthand typists.Grade IV,and remuneration to board members $5,000.

Now the board members are Mr&. James Lind of Grand Falls, being a consumer interest appointment,and Mr. Godden Tilley of Robinson's, being a small business representitive on the board. Mr. Badcock as Chairman. The vote also includes $12,500,which includes board members travel. The -· 3504

Hay 13, 1971 Tape 627 (mornin~ .) PK - 9 MR. CALLAHAN: board meets from place to place in the Province, from time to time. There are the usual expenses for the office, rent, telephone and telegraph, photo-copier, postage and supplies, furniture, and I th:i,nk that comes to about $5,000, I think, just quickly calculating. There is also an amount for what is referred to hear as public enquires,$2,000,and that is fo.r the kind of work that has to be done in te~s of 3505

M;iy 13th, 1971 Tape 628(Mornin~) JM - 1 MR. CALLAHAN: doing continuing research such as the economist will do to determine what prices are from time to time and from place to place. Now along that line I made a statement earlier,which was really a reit~ration of a statement I made a couple of ni~hts ago. The Newfoundland Marketing Board in its continuing market research, and this is the one date I have been able to get quickly, Mr.

Chairman, on January 25, 1971,the Marketing Board price to the farmer was sixty cents for grade A large eggs and the range of price at the retail level was from sixty-five, the producer getting sixty, the range of retail price was from sixty-five cents to eighty-four cents. Eighty-four cents, as I said earlier, Mr. Chairman, without having the authorative information in my hand,but it is none the less accurate, is twenty-four cents per dozen for grade A large eggs, twenty-four cents per dozen more than the price to the farmer on January 25th. Now reference was made, I think. by the hon. the me~ber for St.

John's West,to subsidies to the Newfoundland Poultry Co-operative. Mr. Chairman, there are none and there have not been any since the end of the second year of that Co-operative's operation and that goes back, I think, two years. The context of his remark that there is now a subsidy; there is not now a subsidy nor has there been for, I believe, two years. Reference was made by the hon. the member for St. John's East to a table in what we refer to in the Department as the MacEachen Report, that is the report I tabled the other night, in respect of the cost of poultry feeds. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

CALLAHAN: That is right and there is indeed a reference to the cost of poultry feeds, Mr. Chairman, indicat~ng that they are cheaper.than in certain other provinces,in this Province. The hon. gentleman seized on that to make a case for gouging, I believe, on the part of the producers. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, that the price of poultry feeds in this Province is low or slightly lower than in certain other provinces.for one re;ison and one 3506

May 13th, 1971 Tape 628(Morning) JM - 2 MR. CALLA!!AN: only and that is the reason that this C..overnment took action to see that bulk feeds were brought here for formula mixing. The second point is that the differential in price from, and I do not have the r·eport before me, but the differential in price shown amounts to less than one cent per <lozen on the average price of eggs. The other thing I want to say is that chicks cost more, that buildings cost more, that packaging costs more to our producers and certainly more than one cent per dozen, Mr.

Chairman, than in any other Province,so far as we can determine and indeed we are quite sure that that is the case. On the other hand,in Nova Scotia there is a differential of as much as ten dollars per ton on poultry feeds less than there is here,in what are known as integrator operations. This is where the big feed companies grow their own chicks, operate their own laying establishments and supply their own feed_, and this is what is happenin~ across Canada, ·Mr. Chairman.

The two or three big companies,who also have wholesale and retail outlets,are taking over the entire industry, This would have happened here, I suggest, if we were to have any egg production at all,had it not been for the fact of publicly induced and supported bulk grain facilities. If it had not happened that way, we would have had integration here too and that, of course, means entirely monolopy control,which is what we are said to have but which is not what we have.

We have fifty-four registered CQllllllerical producers,and the objections to the Marketing Board at the producer level have come from the largest of those fifty-four. So it is not in any sense a monolopy situation but integration is. The other point I wish to make, Mr. Chainnan, is the reference of the hon. the member for Gander who said, "Farmers do not know where to go or where to turn for credit." We have increased by more than fifty per-cent in this past year the amount of money in our Farm Loan Board,which is a emall fund in any event but which has loaned about $1.5 million to small

May 13th, 1971 Tape 628(Morning) JM - 3 MR. CALLAHAN: operations over the past tw61ve years, 'vie have also enabled the Farm Credit Corporation to provide better service so that in the last six months of 1970 more funds were loaned by Farm Credit Corporation in this Province than in the twelve years precedin~ last year~ in that one year more than the entire twelve years previous. So the credit situation, Mr. Chairman, has improved.

I agree that credit is a very serious problem but we have improved that situation tremendously in the past year by new funding to our own loan board and by our ability to get the Farm Credit Corporation to supply credit on a nruch more open basis. So far as other commodities and eggs are concerned, we have inquiries and interest by dairy producers, by hor. producers, by broiler producers and by producers of turnips particularily and mixed vegetables generally. They are all interested, I do not know to what degree at this moment, in I:l arketing hoards for their commodities.

The Appropriation-in-Aid, to which the hon. the member for Fortune refers, is there to indicate that we expect that some if not all of these producers will move towards ~arketing boards during the year or will want them, that they may not be entirely controlled by those producers because of the rather limited production. For example, in broilers the production is fifteen per-cent of the total ·consumpti~n.

The Marketing Board advised me that in their judgement it would not be right to put the entire broiler sales industry in the Province into the hands exclusively of a producer group,who only at the moment produce fifteen per-cent of what is consumed. So it is likely that if we move to broilers,it will be at the request, certainly, and at the decision of the broiler operators.

But it probably will be done,in the first instance and until they get their production up by the Marketing Board and,if that happens . as it is rather likely to happen, then theTe will indeed be recoveries by the Marketing Board,as indicated in the vote in the Appropriation-in-Aid. 3508

May 13th, 1971 Tape 628(Morning) JM - 4 MR. CROSBIE: ?-fr. Chairman, just before we vote on this itern,which is to reduce the amount of $70,000. to $1.00 for Marketing Board, the fact remains, Mr. Chairman, that after twenty-two years the Government only has one Marketing Board. It is a Marketing Board for eggs, that is the Government's policy in agriculture MR. CALLAHAN: The Government does not have am arketing board for er,r,s. It is not our l,oard. MR. CROSBIE: The only sub.1ect being marketed at the moment is eggs, the egg producers. MR. CALLAHMl: It is not our board. The Government does not have one. MR.

CROSBIE: It is the Government's board, the Marketing Board is. MR. •CALLAHAN: It is not. It is the producer~s board. They elect their own officers and they did at Gander and - MR. CROS'BIE: It is called the Newfoundland Marketing Board and it is created by the Government, created by Legislation and passed by this House. MR. CALLAHAN: Newfoundland Marketing Board,but that does not market eggs. MR. CROSBIE: Last year we had the Rocky Harbour rooster and this year it is chicken chops. Now if I just could be permitted to finish my few remark~­ ! maybe totally wrong but the Minister can correct me later. MR.

NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: quoted. MR. CROSBIE: I hope the hon. member gets quoted in the Tory newspaper. Listen to the hon. Minister. If you ca11 ·ed the hon ... °!11ember mutton chops you would get The hon. Minister reminds me of a ruptured reptile. Now, Mr. Chairman, as I was saying, the fact remains that there is only one marketing scheme, that is the egg marketing scheme. The fact remains that the Government,after twenty-two years,has emphasized only eggs and poultry and lately pork. The fact remains that there is no marketing scheme for turnips or root crops.

The fact remains that the Government's policy has always been ham and er.gs, poultry and pork, not root crops, that the Government 35fi9

}fay 13th, 1971 Tape 62R(Morning) JM - 5 MR. CROSJlIE: -- ----- scorns root crops or has up to now. The fact remains that the Marketing Board has not improved itself,as far as we are concernerl. It is only working at the moment for poultry producers and eggs. The fact remains that the Minister has not produced any figures to show how the consumer is benefiting in all of this. The fact remains that only l.7 per-cent of Newfoundland's population have anything to do with farming whatsoever. The fact remains there are 500,000 other consumers who have to pay for food products.

The fact remains that their per capita income is forty per-cent below the per capita income of Canadians as a whole, that their per~onal disposable income is only $1,360. per year. The fact remains that twenty-five per-cent of that income in N,ewfoundland is spent on purchasing food, rather than just · twenty per-cent as in the rest of Canada,which indicates more need here in Newfoundland for lower prices. The fact remains that the Premier said we should make the welkin ring about the stores, that the Premier wants to blame the stores for these high prices.

The Premier has appointed two Royal Commissions, neither one of wl1ich produced any evidence that the prices charged by retail stores were exorbitant, and he has produced no evidence himself today. Twenty-two years and there is only one hoard. The fact does remain that this hoard and th~ Farm Products Development Corporation are heavily subsidized by the Government. The Provincial Poultry Co-op is using rent free premises supplied by the Government,to subsidize ... in all sorts of ways, that the Government spends only $20,000. on consumers while it spends several millions on helping these few producers.

There has been no evidence presented at all that would make us change our minds on this vote. The Minister said that · .the retail stores sold eggs from sixty-five cents a dozen to eight-four cents a dozen,retail. Well, what is so unusual about that? Is not the usual retail markup at least thirty, forty per-cent for all kinds of products? They bought the eggs for sixty cents and some ~510

May 13th, 1971 Tape 628(Morning) JM - 6 MR. CROSBIE: stores are sellinr, them for five cents more and some for twenty-four cents more. MR. CALLAHAN: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: No, I .am neither applauding nor disapplauding. I am just saying that this between sixty-five and eighty-four cents is a normal retail markup, that is all. HR. CALLAHAN: Do not blame the farmer. MR. CROSBIE: The farmer gets the sixty cents and the prices could be lower if the Marketing Board would permit them to be lower.

So the Minister has not presented any evidence at all that there.is any benefit to the consumers of Newfoundland,who after all are a half million of us, include us all, and therefore I am going to support the amendment. Next year if the Marketing Boar~ has other arrangements such as including root crops or including other cate~ories of products, then I might take a different attitude. But at the moment,since 1966 there is one marketing scheme and that is for eggs alone, not for turnips and not for all the rest of it and the Minister's policy is being directed toward that and that alone. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The amendment is that Item (7), "Newfoundland :Marketing Board," be reduced to the sum of $1.00. On motion, amendment lost. (On division). On motion, (07) carried, 05(01) to Q5(Q8) carried, 08(03) to 08(06) .... carried. HR. CROSBIE: On 08(07) I have a question, Mr. Chairman.

Would the Minister explain why year after year,in the Auditor General's Report on the Farm Developt!!ent Loan Board,it is pointed out that the Board has not taken effective measures to ensure that assets pledged as security for loans were insured and insurance policies assigned to the Board as required by regulations 58 and 72 of the Farm Development Loan Board Re~ulations and why the Board ~id not charge interest on the balance of a loan outstanding,contrary to regulation 13? Each · 3511

May 13th, 1971 Tape 628(MorninR) JM - 7 MR, CROSRIE: year the Auditor C.eneral reports that but for some reas on the Board does not chanste it. MR. CAT.I.ARAN:. I have an explanation somewhere for that. I do not have it here but I "'111 get it lat~r. MR. C~OSBIE: Okay, well it is one o'clock . MR. CHAIRMA.N: It being one o'clock I leave the Chair until three . ... 3512

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 53 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 13, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

:May 13, 1911. Tape 629 Page 1. Afternoon Sessjon. The House resumed at 3:00 p.m. Committee of Supply. MR.NOEL: Before conanencing the business of the Committee,on behalf of the members,! would like to welcome to~the House today, twenty-three Girl Guides from Mary Queen of Peace together with Capt. Doreen Coady and Lieut. Mary Gladney,also twenty students from the Col~ege of Trades & Technology, of the clerk-typing class,together with the teachers 1 Mr. K. Morrison and Mr. R. Marston. Shall 08-07 carry?

MR.CROSBIE: Mr.,Chairman, I had asked a question on ~hat Farm Development Loan Board at one o'clock.· But before going . back to that 1 Mr. Chairman, I wonder would the minister bring the Hoaee:up to date on the situation in respect to Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation,with the Minister who is responsible. Apparently there is a wildcat strike or some kind of a Atrike 'o~~-;~c~rding to the\:ress report. Eighty employees of the Newfound­ land Products Corporation,! think it is at Pepperrell,have gone on a wildcat ... strike,Mr. Chairman.

They say that they were promised pay increases which they have not received. MR.NOEL: Order please. We are in committee now and you can only raise · what is on the item under discussion. MR..CRQSBIE: This is Agricultural services,Mr. Chairman, and is an important matter 1 so I wonder would the Minister make a counnent on this. MR.NOEL: At tha present time we are on Item 07,Farm Development Board - Shall that item carry? MR.CROSBIE: No, Mr. Chairman. I asked a question,as I said,hefore we recessed - MR.CHAIRMMI: Order please.

MR.CROSBIE: I am referring to the question I asked at one o'clock,~hout the auditor's report on the Newfoundland Farm Tievelopment L~an Board. The question has not been andl~ered. The Minister said lwliile we recessed he was going to get the answer. The ~uestion is that in the Auditor r.eneral's

May 13, 1971. Tape 629. Page 2. Afternoon Session, Report for the last several years there are two matters he comments on, about insurance policies as security for loans, If the Board ~id not charge interest on the balance of a lo~~- outstanding~ The ?-1inister said he would check and r-et this information. not been carried out by the Board? Why these recommendations have MR.CALLAHAN: I was about to answer it,Hr. Chairman,when the hon. gentleman rose the second time. In the case of insurance on assets,they indicated before lunch , I knew there was an explanation and I wanted to be sure what the detail of it is.

The detail is this: That almost entirely in respect of the specific matter referred to by the Auditor General the security is land. Obviously there is no insurance carried or taken on lar,d. There may from time to tirne be a sibuation where equipment is taken, ~s security. I am informed,except in one case only where the amount owed is very small,insurance has not been taken on the equipment, In every case but one that is on the books 1 even equipment is insured but obviously there is not insurance on land.

There is one case . in which at a meeting of the Board, the Board considers the case of a loan of $2500 for equipment granted to a resident of Corner Brook. I think it would not be helpful to disclose the_ .name publicly. But if the hon. gentleman wishes to know privately I would be glad to tell him. The loan was on a 1955 chattel mortgage, the client abandoned fallll\ing shortly afterwards due to illness. The equipment was rel'ossessed by the Board and sold. The amount received was not sufficient to pay off the loan. The balance of $2, 023.10 remains unpaid.

The amount is considered uncollectable.The Board I believe intend to recommend that the balance be written off. That is why no interest is being charged, _there . is really no future in charging it. While I am on my feet,Mr. Chairman, in keeping with assurance I gave the Ilouse,I think the night before last,I ~Tish to table copies of the outline of the Forest Improvement Programme and also of the access road progra1!1111e to be undertaken in the Province this year. There :;514

May 13, 1971. Tape 629. Page 3. Afternoon Session, ha~ been enquiry from the press I would hope that at least two mr three copies might make their way up to the vress gallery. 'MR.~RPHY: Mr. ·rhai1:111an1 before we pass that 07, I would just like to direct a question,throu~h the committee to the Minister,with reference to representation from some five farmers.I received this during the dinner hour, from the Musgravetown area,with reference to crop'failures from '68 to '70, where they applied to this Loan Board for loans for fertilizer, inaecticides, seeds etc.

The Loan Board could only grant them just about one-fifth of their requirements. This is all on record,in a letter from the Deputy-Minister/"',..r. O'Reilly 1 actually. These gentleman informed me that,as of the presen~~ they will just have to give up their farming• I wonder is there something, is there not something in this that could help these gentlemen out over the emergency? They need approximately $2,500 each. They have been offered $500. They farm appr?ximately forty-five acres of land. As I say,they are in the hole, they owe for fertilizer, insecticides fr6m previous years.

They have made representationssto the Farm Loan B~ard. But as I say they are only offered just about one-fifth of what the require- nehts are, I am wondering Sir, has the Minister any statement to make, perhaps offering these people a bit of extra help at this time where the going has been pretty~tougn this last couple of yearsP MR.CALLAHAN: I am aware of the problem,Mr, ~airman, The loan amount offered it 6ffered because in the previous year there was an almost complete wipe-out on the West Coast,of potatoes in the Robinson's area and in C11rmacTt.

The Farm Board Regulations were amended to provide for a ne,,, kind of loan, being a short-term, a two year loan actually, really wm:king capital to enable farmers to get sufficient credit to purchase fertilizer and seeds and pesticides, for the ensa.i.ng ire.ason. The Farm Loan Board funds are relatively limited,as I already informed the C011111ittee, They are not in any way.shape or form intended to be an insurance fund 1 indeed they could :;515

May 13, 1971. Tape 629. Page 4. ~fternoon Session. not be. So that what we have tried to do on the West Coast, last year, and what ~e have offered to certain farmers on ~he East Coast this year is precisely the s~me, namely, a two year· loan to enable them to purchase amounts of seed and fertilizer for the season coming up. Now I realize that in some cases this is not enough.

What they are really looking for is working capital wh~ch ~e just do not have in the amounts required, if everybody who has a loss'came looking for it, in the hope that he could borrow the money and by having a good crop season recover his loss. The only answer for that, realiy, is crop insurance. Crop insurance is a very expensive thing. We have n~t as yet had any expression bf willinu­ ness on the part of farmers to bear the cost of ~rop insurance. It must be a contributli>ry fund.

We would be quite, . prepared to look at any reasonable proposals but the farmers know what the costs are I believe, and they are not very anxious to undertake them. When you get a failure of some kind or you have a problem such as some farmers in Musgravetown area have this year 1 then they have to obtain loan funds 1 working capital. We really are not in a position to provide Farm Loans funds but really they are emergency loans,being in a sense crop insurance.

But we are in a position to provide relatively modest but nonetheless useful loans 1as I think soae forty-eight farmers !~_Western Newfoundland found last year. They would not have been able to farm at all had it not been for these funds and through meetings with them it was determined - they were pretty average I think about the same as those in MusgravetbVTri.•·amne land being farmed, same amount. This is the amount they suggest~d.

It worked very well for them and I think on a one-season basis probably ~"Culd be very helpful to Musgravetown, but I do not think - SOME HON.MEMBER: How much - five hundred dollars - HR.CALLAHAN: Five hundred dollars, yes. I do not think we can go back ~nd pick up previous years.~hat would ~eem to me to be paying off bad debts, In some way trying_ to make the lll4n· fUQ11··1.ttt0 crop insurance, wh.ich of course we should not do. ~516

~<ny 13, 1971. Tape 62_9. Page 5. Afternoon Session. MR.HICKMAN: ~r. Chairman, I was asked by a farme.J". tp, put this question to the Minister: Is there a fixed ·rate for renting.equipment to farm~rs for land clearing purposes? f-fR.CALLAHAN: I believe there-is. Depending on the equipment. MR.HICKMAN: The suggestion - a standard rate for all areas - I am not going to lead the Hon. Minister into anything, his suggestion was, this farmer I think is from Logy Bay, that there is a much lower rate available to farmers on Bell Island than to farmers in Logy Bay. MR.CALLAHAN: I do not believe so, Mr. Chairman.

MR.llICKMAN : Land clearing there on Bel). Island - MR • CALLAllAN: If I can try to clear this up a· ·11~de •. . Last ;Y'ear,_ and the , . . • •• 1 year before we began. and last year, we intedd to continue this year; ?fr.· ­ Chairman, in areas where people are sufficiently interested and prepared to contribute something to it themselves; we have located an agriculture -_ ... student, I think in six areas last year,to help do a little of the subsistence tppe agriculture, perhaps in certain communities, limited areas, in certain 8111811 conmunities nan well need, well use and perhaps need.

On Bell Island last year about fifty people produced I t~in~ about $26,000 worth of crops from market garden operations. This was a community which badly needed that kind of thing and in which the people wanted to do it on a community basis. So we put a student there and certain equtpment. Now, generally speaking our equipment that we have, say, at the Holyrood Depot is not on loan. It is not on hire, except for specialize bogland equipment. That is the only thing that is hired. It is hired at a standard rate. Although there may be wrapped in that an additional amount for transportation. I am not sure.

That is the only equipment-· •. is rented. My colleague tells me that on Bell Island this year the~e are about 300 applications to do what about fifty people did last year. This ia a community thing and it is not a case of just renting to any individual. We normally do not do that. ~517

~1ay 13;,, 1971. Tape 629 Page 6. Afternoon Session. ~.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, before we leave the Farm Development Loan Board, the Auditor General also states . in his report, the year ending !-'arch 31, 1970 1 that outs .tanding loans _and interest thereon carried in the balance sheet includes accounts totallfng $67,610.27 which in the ot opinion~the manager of- the Board may prove to be uncollectable. However no allowance for uncollectable accounts ls being provided.

Mr. ·cha:J-rman, when you look at the balance sheet under Assets, The Board had cash in the bank $31,000r Loans, Installments due and unpaid $288,000 1 Interest du~. ~nd unpaid, $48,000. (I am just using the round figures). ~!hat is the explanation for this over half the assets, well over half the assets are installments on princioa) due and unpaid and installments on interest due and unpaid. MR.CALLAHAN: I can answer the hon. gentleman Vt:ry quickly and very briefly Mr. Chairman.

This represents the failure,which was a pretty general failure of the mink ranching industries, lome years ag°'and the accounts have been carried on the books, MY own feeling is, and incidentally the assets have been, have accrued to the Board. The accounts have been carried on the books and in fact gives the Board a rather bad image. Ih fact,if you take the mink ranches out of it, the micollectable or bad debts of the Board in total loans of about one and a-half million dollars, • j are,I think, slightly over one per cent, about 1.1 per cent which I feel ts•a good record.

These amounts to which the hon. gentlem£n•referred are solely in respect o·f the mink ranches which just went broke when the mink ranching industry folded up, I thu,.lc., 1n:.all of North America. MR.CROSBIE: They should be written off the books." ~.CALLAHA?t: They should be an.d.~~_h_as been recommended by me. I think that is the '69 ~tatement. March 31, '70. MR.CROSBIE: l4R.CALLAHAN: Well, I think in the next statement they will be shown as having been written off. !.518

!-'!ay 13, 1971. Tape 629 Par;e 7. Afternoon Session. 1-'l{.CIIAlRt,t'AN: Shall 07 carry? ~!R ;.t,11.TRPHY: Lil!lestone quarry where ' is this - 1-'R. CAL LARA N : We intend to open one of-~ur own. We are buying lim~stone now and it is much cheaper to operate our o~'l\ quarry, so we intend to do that. There are a number of locations. It co~ld be in any number of places. Corner Brook might be very good,because our new facility will be right alon~side the old quarry. That is to be determined. MR .CHAIRMAN: Shall 816-01 carry? MR.CALLAHAN: Before we move on to that,r-~r.

Chairman, may I say briefly that during lunch I had a visit from the Chairman of the Farms Products Corporation and the office manager,to tell"me that about eighty-five men walked off the job this morning. It is not in my view an illegal strike,as I heard it re~orted in one report. There is no union,the men has no formal representation of any kind.

They are concerned about salaries. · On the fifteenth of April a notice was ppsted at the eorporation,reassuring employees of what had been conveyed to them already,previously, that until the position classification had been done at the Corporation, . the Corporation were not in a position to make a salary revision. But they also were assured that any salary revision would be retroactive to April 1, the start of the fiscal year in which we now are. This was on April 15, the reassurance was eiven. I understand the management had no notice today until the men left the job. We are concerned.

We have about 4poo birds down there to kill, which could have been killed today. We have a shipment of hogs down there. I hope the men will go back to work this afternoon so that the plant can at least clean up the sh_ipments that are on hand. In the meantime, my colleague the ~inister of Labour(acting) and I have bern contacted by a union official expressing some interest and I have informed that gentleman that,in our view,the first thing that should happen is the men whould go back to work.

If the union wishes then to go in and or~anize them and ~et the majority of the workers on their rolls, then we woiil.d ~519

May 13, 1971. Tape 629. Pa~e 8. Afternoon Session. certainly entertain a request for reco~ition. But at this point there iR no leadership, really, there is no organization and we(really are dealing with individuals. But l will tell the-Committee this, Sir, that if nothing haprens we cannot keep that plant closed yery long, it will be losing money, farmers will be in d!fficulty,in losing }!\Oney. Contracts will be unfilled. The position le~ally,I suppose,is . that . the men has just simply resigned their jobs.

We are not anxious to hold to that position, we think a reasonable time should be allowed, but I strongly hope that the people will be back there to work very quickly,if .not we have real difficulties in that ~lant. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question in connection with the Minister's statement. 1 gather then that from the statement of the manager that the men, if they were not back by one o'clock they would be considered they had terminated their employment as not being - MR.CALLAHAN: So far as I know that is not a reflection of what the manager told them.

I think what he did tell them was essentially what 1 have said, namely, ~r. Chairman, there is no contract. there was no notice. There had been no communication from the men for about ·a month. Suddenly _everybody has walked out. I think the manager conveyed to them the position that~ if they did not indicate that they would return to work by reasonable time it would have to be assumed . that:th~y had quit their jobs.

Now, we are not ami:ious,•s 1 have said,to stand on that position. that is the position,if the thing laats very long. i have suggested to the union representative.who apparently will represent some of these men at least, was with them tod~y that the sensible thing is for the union to do, .. provide tbe leadership to get them back on their job and then.if it wishes,to go ahead and organize them. 1 do not see any other - MR.CROSBIE: That sounds reasonable - Mr.Chairman, just one other q~estion. It is reported in the press that the men working there at the present time are being paid the.minimum wage, $1.25 an hour.

MR.CAU.AHI\N: There are some who· came on - ~520

May 13, -1971, Tape 630·, · Page 1 · -- aph Afternoon • • r.r 1'!R. CALLAHAN: There are some who came on as casual help. There are others who are being paid in excess of the comparable wage in the-"Maritime Provinces. ·- We. ~ve Steve~pn - Kellogg, doing the ,:.:·,. «:lassificat~on work for us,in order to hurry it up_,.so that it would . ,. ,. ••not have to wa~t for the fersonnel Administration Division who are v~ry heavily: burdened. We .hope that by the first of June we~will have ~~e claJ~sfic~~i~n done. It is being done as quickly as possible.

We have a consultant and ire are paying a little extra money to do it. MR. CROSBIE: -~Are theR women employees there also? tfR.. CALLAHAN:··.:• I believe· there are a few. Not very many. MR. CROSBIE: ... Are they paid the same rate as the men? . MR. CALLAHAN: .,.._ problem. MR. CROSBIE: MR. CALLAHAN: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL: I am quite sure they are,Mr. Chainpan. That is not a For equal work. For equal work. Yes. Shall 81-601 carry? From this, this relates to minllral resources, to the salaries for mineral resources,and th~e are a few c011D11ents I would like to make pertaining to same.

First of all,1 think everybody would like to see this particular division of the Department of Mines probably take on a much more effective cloak than it presently has. There is no doubt that with reapect to the policy of this Govermnent,w:lth 111:lneral development_-and this has been said time and time again,• bat always needs repeating, apparently, because it is not digestedr :la that the areas given for mineral development are much too big.

We have seen instances of this which have occurred recently,where the Doyle interests have been given . and renewed rights to hundreds of thousands of square. miles for development puq,oau-;-- · -· ~ There is a body of thought and a very reasoned body of • thought that states that huge . concessions of this nature are no good ~521

?tay 13, 1971, Tape 630, Page 2 -- apb Afternoon. because the optimum development for Newfomtdland is not going to result. It is also thought by most reason~ng people, depending on the size of the corporation that most of these mi~tng corporations can only efficiently and effectively handle 1 say, approximately 100 square miles in a one to three year period.

Certainly. a concern 1 such as the Javelin interest~ have demonstrated that they cannot effectively, to the best interest of the Province, for the provision of the most jobs in the Province, control and prospect for, _in the area of land that t~ey have been given., the . hundreds and thousands of miles of concessions. There is also a great peed for a greater amount to be spent by these promoters and developers in the' exploration of minerals. Many times these concessions are give,,and they lay fallow for years and years, months and months and nothing has been done about it.

One of the big problems that I would like the 11linister to address himself to; I would like him to inform the Committee what exactly the Government is doing with respect to the ultimate optimmn processing of the raw mineral uteriale of this Province. There is no doubt that this::J.s necessary. It is necessary for the greatest nmnber of jobs. We will only be following the example of Ontario. Recently, Ontario introduced legislation requiring the refining of all Ontario minara~s,where possible,in the Province of Ontario itself. I think that we should explore this possibility.

This is a policy that has to be adopted. Obviously, it cannot be adopted overnight like that. It is going to take a great deal of planning.before it can be implement~d. Certainly, this Government has not shown that it is willing to take any initiative with respect to the processing of, not only the raw mineral materials : but also- raw materials of other natural reaources. Here we are talking about mineral materials thel!lselves. We have beea told that there is to be a forest development corporation s~t up,which is a good thinE'!, .provided. that the development corporation is effective.

I should also like to see set up in this Province a mineral development corporation,cou,prising of. representatives ~522

.. May 13, 1971 , Tape 63n, Page 3 -- apb Afternoon. of Covemaent, repreaentative• of industry ancl repreaentati,ru of laltour, ao that the•• particular probl•• ean be handled, ao that -,bui~ ean be placed upon the develog91lent of our aineral resource•, proceHing of our raw uteriall, and indeedr ao that there can be greater understanding b'!t• Nng•ent and labour with respect to the . ftrJ critical probl• of safety in mine th••elvu. Thi developnent corporation, this type of corporation, whatevel'.name you call it, baa to be couidered.

Probably one of the nuon  why it ha not been brought into effect. or ha not apparently be• fully contemplated br this Covqn11ent, wber•• they are pr~pared . to do :lt in the forest industry, :ls that there :ls very little that tbi Gftermient ha• left to control in tha ain~r•l reaourcea d:lv:la:lon,. lecause, tllen have been far too •ny conceadou g:l,ren to too f• people .• I•• ,rery d:l•turbecl, becuN.. I wa• unaware until I beard the IIDn. aeiber for St.

John'• West nfer a day or tw ago to the oil exploration pem:lt that had been gi•en-to the Shaheen ancl Doyle interest  off the coat of th:l Province, alaaat ~ed:l tely thereafter I heard • atatatent to the effect,on the radio, that Caa4ian Joalin had almDllncecl that it had •ublet oae of :lta righta to another ccapany.

Theae are all Mtt•• that ·certainly 11Duld have to be loobd into. l• Ceaad:lan Javelin gett:lns aoney a •ubleaaor of th••• right  vb:lch the Prorince •houlcl rally have? _U Caudian Javelin, Cail nblet -thue right., it certaf.nly howa that the:, have been giVllll far too aich of a concea:lon. I alo not:lad,after heating what the hon. - mber for St.

John!• ·V.at aid, that thee right• tlat have been given to the Shaheen and Doyle :lntere t  are on the perh!:lter or in the vicinity ob~ouely, of where· certa:lno,other l9Jitf.Nte on ezploration companies have been ttiven pendt • It wuld appear that the:, are dttiDR there on the perimeter and they are •t golag to be prepared to do· any reource work thell8elvea. · The:, are Jut going to tab the benefits of t~e peiople.who have t~~ )end.ts . adjacent to the:lra. I would n:,, that the, •~d be bette~ kept to the

?fay 13, 1971, Tape 630, Page 4 -- apb Province itself, these areas, ao that we can get the optimum benefit when and if 1 as we.all hope,a sttl.ke occurs out in the !--laritime waters. No indeed~}fr. Chairman!-•-it is quite obvious, it is quite obvious, that there needs to be good and more positive direction in the mineral exploration and mineral development of this Province. The minister indicafed to this House recently, he_ has made the statement that they could not find people to take on these concessions to do the development. MR. CALLA1-:A11: MR. CALLAHAN: J1R. MARSHALL: I did not say that.

The minister indicated ••• Come off it. The minister indicated to this House that it was not that easy to find people who would do the exploration work required. !-m.. CALLAHAN: I said no such thing. ~- MURPHY: He was supported by the Minister _ of Justice. MR. ?1ARSHALL: The fact of the matter is - it was, it was stated in this House. If so this is a situation which I do not accept. It would be much better for these mineral grants to lay fallow and dormant in the Province's hands rather than lying fallow and dormant in the hands of these developers and promoters. Indeed, Mr. Chainnan, ••• MR.

S?-rALLWOOD (J .R.) : · The hon. gentleman is talking the most arrant nonsense. :HR. ¥ARSHALL: The hon. gentleman always talks that:,as far as the hon. the Preinier is concerned. :MR. S1-~ALLWOOD: , Utter nonsensel MR. !--'ARSUALL: There is no doubt, there ia no doubt 1 Mr. Chairman, that the Doyle, Shaheen and other·promotera in this Province are really economic vultures who are sucking the·life~blood out of this Province. The Department of 'Hines is apparently powerless, or does not wish to do anything about it.

May 13., 1971, Tape 630, Page 5 -- apb Afternoon. MR. Sl-lALUlOOD: ~r. Chairman, I have heard a lot of blatant blether, windy nonsense in this Chamber, but this is about the worst. Wha~ he is doinr,, what the hon. gentlel!'.a~:i·s doing is condemning the I Labrador 'Mining and Exploration Company. The Labrador ~.ining and Exploration Company were given a concession of 2~ thousand square miles in Labrador 1 by the Govermnent of Newfoundland. I was not in the C'.overmnent that. did it. The Governor was the head of the G