Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 80 (33rd Legislature, 1st Session)

33-1-80

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 3 September, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER , Hon. M. Phillips: Pres enting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presen ting Reports by Stand ing and Sp ecia l Committees . . . MINISTE RIAL STAT EMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourabl e Minis ter of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to table the report by the Provincial Auditor with respect to th e Workers Com pensation Board of Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Interim Report on questions relating to retail gasoline prices in the City of Winnipeg. MADAM SPEAKER: No ti ces of Motion ... Introduction of Bills . . . ORAL QUEST IONS MTS - Telecommunications equipment returned from Saudi Arabia MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Telephone System.

On July 30, I asked the Mini ster responsible whether he could ind icate what the cost of removing the Timeplex equip ment from bond, that equipment that was being held in storage at the Locher Evers Warehouse here, and he undertook to bring back the in formation on that. I wonder if he now ha s th e information. MADAM SPEAK ER: The Ho no urable Mi n ister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thought that I had provided that information; I regret that I haven't. I did have it.

My understanding is that it was in the neigh bourhood of $2, 000-some-odd for a period up to two years in storage, but I will confirm the exact amount at committee tomorrow. MR. G. FILMON: Yes, is that just storage costs because the question had referred to the cost of any duties that would have to be paid in order to remove the equipment from bond? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I will endeavour to ensure that all of that information is available tomorrow.

As I recall, I did ind icate to the House that the officials of MTX and MTS had taken up with Customs Canada - that's the appropriate name for that body - the disagreement about irrelevant custom fees that were payable, and I believe that they have been able to secure an understanding that it's not the maximum custom duties as was earlier indicated. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, furth er, on July 31 I had asked the Minister if he could indicate whether there was any other equipment being held in bond elsewhere in North America with respect to equipment that had been sent over by MTX to its companies and related operations overseas. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I believe that I had indicated, not to my knowledge, and I hav en't had any further indication to me that there were any other shipments of equipment held in bond in Canada or elsewhere. I'm not sure of the arrangements in some of the overseas destinies of equipment.

Certainly we'll be in a position to verify that through the officials tomorrow. MR. G. FILMON: On July 31, as well, Madam Speaker, I had asked the Minister whether or not the Saudi partner accepts responsibility for 50 percent of the loss on equipment that has to be returned to Canada, resold at a loss or other expenses in reclaiming the equipment. Do they accept 50 percent of the loss? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I'd assumed tha t the Ho nourable Leader of the Opp osition understood that in any partnership where there was an equal sharing of risk and equal investment that if there was a loss there would be an equal sharing in respect to any loss. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, in this particular case, MTX is sending the equipm ent over to the Saudi company for ultimate retail sales and MTX, in this case, in the absence of any agreement, wouldn't be entitled to share any loss with them.

Is there any agreement that allows them to share the loss on these transactions of equipment being sent over there? HON. A. MACKLING: The specifics of the risk involved in those shipments can be dealt with tomorrow at committee meeting. I'm sure that officials should be in a position to confirm how the risk sharing takes place in respect to shipments. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, on July 31, I asked the Min ister, with respect to that information that originally had been wrongly provided to the Mi nister, 3524

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 about the equipment and the reasons for its return. I'd ask the Mini ster who had been responsible for misinf orming, either the Mini ster or his executive assistant, who had made the telephone call and the Mini ster had un dertaken to provide us with the information on that, has he the information on that? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speak er, I thought that I had clearly indicated that out of a concern to provide information to the Opposition in respect to questions arising regarding a shipme nt held in bond tha t I immediately put inquiries to MTX staff here, and when I had information I conveyed that, regrettab ly, outside of the House to the media the next day. I confirmed that what I had advised the media appe ared to have been incorrect, because the information I'd received indicated that there had been a change in ownership in the bank.

There had been no change in ownership; there'd been a change in a philosophy in respect to the operations of systems operated by the bank and I explained that in the House. I pointed out in my answer - and the honourable member may recall this - that I received that information from my special assistant who had taken it down by telephone from an official at MTX, I believe Mr. Plunkett, the CEO of MTX, and there may have been some misunderstanding as to what the answer was given by telephone.

I don't find fault with either my special assistant or the CEO of MTX because I am not certain whether there was some misunderstanding by telephone of that information. MTS - Aysan, Theresa, employment MR. G. FILMON: Madam Spe aker, on July 31, upon learning that Theresa Aysan had been re-employed by the Telephone System in a new position, the question was asked of the Mini ster whether or not a competition had been held for the job which Theresa Aysan had been given, and he undertook to bring back an answer on that. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I'm sure that question can be put to Mr.

Holland, the Chief Exec�t_ive Officer of MTS, and he can clarify the manner of filling that position. MTS - MITEL International and Al Bassam MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question for the Premier is: on August 15, I asked whether or not he had been informed that MI TEL International had cut off the credit to the Telecom Division of Al Bassam In ternational prior to MTX entering into a 50-5 0 partnership with them. I wonder if the Premier now has an answer for that question. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I thought that question had been addressed in committee.

I will check, but I thought I had read that answer had been given in committee, that there had been no cutoff to such credit. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that the Premier presumably has read the answer, I wonder if he can give us the answer to that question. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I will check to see whether those questions were dealt with in committee or not. MTS - MTX Royal Bank Account MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Min ister responsible for the Telephone System is: in committee on July 15 the question was asked what the purpose was for the MTX bank account with the Royal Bank of Canada. We had received explanation as to the purpose of the Bank of Nova Scotia account and there was also evidence of a Royal Bank account, and the question was asked, what was the purpose for the Royal Bank account. I wonder if the Minister can indicate that information. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I will have to check that question.

I believes that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition or the Honourable Member for Pembina had pursued th at question at a subsequent meeting of the committee. If that is not the case, then I will make sure that the ans wer is given. But I did ask the Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Ho lland, to have provided answers for each of those questions and I believe that he had dealt with them at the opening of the committee meeting on August 21. If he had failed to answer that question, we'll make certain that an answer is provided. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Mini ster is indicating that he prefers not to answer any of these questions in the House, but that the only vehicle for receiving information is going to be the committee sittings. HON. A. MACKLING: Not at all, Madam Speaker. I certainly want to provide as responsibly as I can the answers to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition's questions. He appreciates the fact that the committee is meeting tomorrow and would be a suitable time when the officials, who would otherwise relate information to me, would be available to answer those questions on my behalf. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, so that the Min ister understands, all of these questions that I'm posing had been taken as notice prior for the last committee meetings, in fact, the last two committee meetings, and I'm reminding the Minister of them so that somehow, some way, we will get answers to these questions. MTS - suspension of senior officials MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, on August 25, the Mini ster indicated that he would check into why Mr. 3525

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 Plunkett - who had his duties removed from him as CEO of the corporation - continued to be involved in the operation of MTX, and what his du ties and responsibilities were now with Mr. Curtis in place. I wonder if the Minister could indicate that today. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I again thought th at I had gi ven the Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition an answer to that question. Perhaps the answer wasn't to his satisfaction. I won't quarrel with him. I indicated that Mr. Plunkett, at the request of Mr.

Curtis, was preparing as much information as possible to deal with the concerns that had been raised in respect to the operations of MTX, and continued to assist Mr. Curtis in respond ing to the concerns about the suspension order that we issued, because, as the ho nourable mem bers know, th ere were ongoing contractual obligations. We have to determine in which instance there must be a continuance because there is a legal obligation, and in what instances where we can suspend any further ini tia ti ve pending th e management audit as we have indicated is necessary.

MTS -business plan with SADL and financial statements MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder as well if the Minis ter could indi cate - he has been asked previously and I know that he has taken that under advisement - if he's had an opportunity to establish whether or not the original business plan for SADL will be available to us in committee tomor row, and whether or not the financial statements for SADL for years ending December 31, 19 82 and December 31, 1983 will be available in committee tomo rrow. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, the Honourable Mem ber for Lakeside is admonishing me to be careful.

Madam Speak er, I take care to provide answers as quickly as I can to all questions that are asked . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. A. MACKLING: . . . and in answer to the questions of the Leader of the Opposition, the Saudi Arabia Datacom Ltd., the acronym SADL, -(lnterjection) was received it . . . Well, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition apparently doesn't want to listen to the answer; I don't know whether he's concerned or not.

Saudi Arabia Datacom Limited, the joint venture, the acronym for which is SADL, received its formal corporation number in June of 19 83 and , as such, there would be no financial statements for that joint venture up until that time. I' ve asked staff to prepare an indication of the financial statements, the working relationships that were entered into between MTX and Al Bassam International in the pre-corporation registration time, so th at information will be available to members.

In respect to the business plan, I've received some documentation from staff; I have queried that that is the business plan that honourable members are referring to. I have a do cu ment called a busi ness plan, of Data com. Presu mably, that is the document the honourable member is referring to that was marked as a

schedule to an agreement that was already provided. If that's the document, I can give it today. MR. G. FILMON: So, Madam Speaker, is the Minister saying that now the corporation is reconstruct ing financial statements for year ends 1982 and 19 83, for some three years or four years down the road? How did th at inf ormation show up, in which financial statements? Was it financial statements of MTX, or financial statements of MTS? How did that financial inf ormation show up if there are no records available, per se, under SADL? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I hear the Ho nourable Me mber for Pembina saying "unbelievable." He knew, when he asked the question the other day, he knew that the joint venture was not officially incorporated until June 19 83; and I indicated that where financial statements are available, I will provide them. Madam Sp eaker, there was a necessary accounting in respect to the relationship between MTX and Al Bassam International and I've asked for that accounting, and members are entitled to get that accounting.

I've asked that we get tha t accounting in the pre incorporation period because that is information that I want to see and I'm sure they want to see. So if the honourable member is suggesting I'm cookin g something, I regret that categorically. I'm trying to provide them with the kind of information they're entitled to. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question is: why did the Min ister responsible for the Telephone System, or his predecessor, not want to know this information three years ago?

Why is it three years later that they finally decide they need to know what was happening in that company that was being funded by MTX and by the people of Manitoba? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Sp eaker, I say with sincerity that there was a stage some weeks ago when I felt, as a Minister, indebted to the Honourable Member for Pembina for the kind of investigation that had exposed what I consider to be inadequacies, to the extent where it was obvious that there was a need to call in the RCMP; and even go further, establish a management audit and suspend operations pending that management audit.

I am, as Min ister, concerned to ensure that every stage of accounting which is necessary will be done by the management audit, to make sure that there has been a full accounting in respect to all of the dealings of MTX in this matter. I am not an accountant; I am not an expert. I have asked my staff to produce further documentation because I think that documentation was lacking, there wasn't a sufficient accounting, Madam Speaker. I think honourable members are entitled to that kind of accounting.

They are going to get it through the management audit; they are going to get it through an RCMP investigation and I will be happy to insure that that full accounting is placed before the committee. 3526

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 Dental Program s - accreditation of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education. The Canadian Dental Association has denied full accreditation to Ma nitoba's Und ergradua te Dental Program and to two graduate dental programs citing inadequate lecture space, poor quality labs, and staffing problems; all of which certainly suffer with lack of funding.

Has the Mini ster spoken with the President of the Un iversity of Manitoba regarding this problem, in that Manitoba has failed to meet the standards for dental accreditation twice in seven years? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, Madam Speaker, in fact the president of the university did contact me and indicate to me that the accreditation in certain programs in the Faculty of Dentistry were in jeopardy.

I believe that ii came somewhat as a surprise, as it indicated in the paper, that th ree programs - two undergr adua tes and a graduate program - did not receive full accreditation. As the member indicated in her question, this is not the first time that has happened. I believe that some 10 years ago was the first time when full accreditation was denied.

It is not unusual; it is part of the process of developing and continuing an acceptable set of standards in any program, and I believe the university has responded in the past to the lack of accreditation, and certainly will be responding to any perceived deficiences in the current programming. They will, in the course of their budgeting, I am sure, be allocating sufficient funds to cover any deficiency that exists. MRS. S. CAR STAIRS: Madam Sp eaker , with a supp lementary question to the same Min ister.

Can the Minister tell the House why, in a study released last spring of 10 dental schools across Canada, that dental students from the Un iversity of Manitoba exp ressed the greatest dissatisfact ion of all students across this country? HON. J. STORIE: No, Madam Speaker, I have not spoken to any of the graduates of the Dental School. I assume that it has something to do with perhaps the perceived inadequacy of the space. I know that as early as 19 80 the Canadian Dental Association had indicated that there was more space required in the faculty.

Cert ainly in the early years, 19 81 -82-83, this government was providing funding in the area of 10 percent, 11 percent, 13 percent increases, and I assume that the board of governors and the admin istration at the un iversity , if th ey had de emed th at problem signi ficant enough, could have di rected addition al capital funds to the faculty so they could have addressed some of those problems. I think I indicated earlier that, if there are problems, they will certainly be addressed. They have in the past and they will in the future.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights with a final supplementary. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Yes, with a final supplementary to the same Min ister. Madam Speaker, can the Min ister explain how our universities are to cope with accreditation problems when their operational funding is less than the rate of inflation? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, if that statement were accurate, I would agree that our universities do have a problem. Since 19 81, increased funding to the universities in this province has been 8 percent above inflation.

Grain handlers' dispute, Lakehead MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Last week, in reply to a question I posed, the Premier indicated, in essence, that his government didn't have concern, or certainly did not wish to interfere, in the grain handlers dispute at the Lakehead. Today, Madam Speaker, all of Saskatchewan Pool's terminals have been struck. I understand that all the other grain company terminals are deciding whether to lock out their employ ees, shutting down, Madam Spe aker, virtually all of Manitoba grain export movement.

I ask the Min ister of Agriculture, Madam Speaker: has the government today made representation to the Federal Government to end this dispute immediately? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mi nis ter of Agriculture. HON. B. UR USKI : Madam Sp eake r, I thank the honourable member for his question.

I wish to ind icate th at both the Mi nis ter of Transporta tion, myself and the Premier have had meetings on this and we are in fact telexing both the Federal Mini ster responsible for Labour, the Wheat Board, and the Minister of Transport, as we understand that conciliation services have been removed and there should in fact be conciliation services.

And short of getting both parties to the table to resolve this issue - as I understand, of course, that Manitoba Wheat Pool is not on strike because there is a separate collective ageement - that grain cars in fact be made available to make sure that the utmost use of the Port of Churchill is maintained, Madam Sp eaker. MR. C. MANNESS: Ma dam Sp ea ker, gi ven th at Churchill handles roughly 2 percent of the exports of Western Canada, given that there are no quotas in effect, that the total license system is totally plugged with wheat ... MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. C.

MANNESS: . . . that there is no income coming into farm communities, will, Madam Speaker - my question - this government put dogma aside and request of the Federal Go vernment to in stitute legislation, if necessary, to end that strike and that dispute immediately? 3527

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 HON. B. URUSKI: It's very clear, Madam Speaker, that there is a lack of income to western agriculture by virtue of a 24 percent reduction in grain prices brought forward by their colleagues in Ottawa, there is no doubt; and the lack of commitment, Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Federal Govern ment, in an attempt to pit provincial treasuries against the treasuries of the United States. There has been no commitment to guarantee the incomes of western grain farmers.

I certainly would not recommend a situation of confrontation in a labour dispute, but what we want to have is to bring both parties to the table to work this agreement out, and that's what conciliation services are, to be provided by their colleagues in Ottawa, and that's what should happen, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Morris with a final supplementary. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speak er, given that there are no quotas, so regardless of the price of wheat that there is no movement of grain, so there is no income coming in; and given the fact that when there was a hog dispute embargo and .

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a supplementary? MR. C. MANNESS: . . . a countervail in effect, the First Min ister, Madam Speaker, found it politically expedient to act immediately. I ask the Minister . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Question period is not a time for debate. Does the honourable member have a supplementary question? MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, I ask the Min ister of Agriculture a new question.

Given that the Premier of this province found it politically expedient to act quickly, supp osedly, over the hog dispute, I ask the Min ister of Agriculture whether or not his government will be prepared to act quickly on this very major dispute, such that it could cost Manitoba grain producers $10 million a week with that port closed . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, as always in this Session, members oppo site not only want to pose the question, they also want to provide the answer. Madam Speaker, members of this government had acted on this issue even though it is strictly a federal responsibil ity. Madam Spe aker, in the case that the member opposite mentioned, the hog dispute, the Federal Government knew one year in advance on the chloramphenicol issue that there would be an embargo and they did not act. This gov ernment acted 3528 immediately when the States moved. That's the reason we took action at that time. MR. C.

MANNESS: The Honourable Member for Morris with a final supplementary. MR. C. MANNESS: A final supp lementary, Madam Speaker. Can the Minister of Agriculture tell the House and the grain farmers of Manitoba how long he will sit and how long this government will sit by watching the conciliatory process evolve, given what has occurred, Madam Speaker, over the last month, how long this government will continue to sit back and watch that process evolve before it has the guts to stand up and do some thing and make strong representation to Ottawa to end the dispute? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, it's clear that honourable members opposite didn't want to hear the answer I provided . We have acted on a provincial basis in the interest of farmers of Manitoba and Western Canada, but Madam Speaker, we will not put the interests of farmers ahead of political expediency as is being expressed by members opposite. Have they, Madam Speaker . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Madam Speak er.

Clearly I indicated, Madam Speaker, that the Minister of Transportation and myself sending a telex to all the Federal Ministers, both of Transportation, of Labour and responsible for the Whe at Board to gr ain conciliation services to act. Madam Speaker, we are putting the interests of farmers ahead of political exped iency, unlike members opposite here who have sat in this House for three-and-a-half months keeping the farmers behind and the banks ahead in terms of the argument on Bill 4, The Family Farm Protection Act. Land Titles Office - Registration Fee Increase MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St.

Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Min ister of Finance. The Estimates of Revenue of the Province, which he tabled, indicated a revenue from the Land Titles Office of $11 ,000,500 in this fiscal year. In view of the Estimates of Revenue from the Land Titles Office now that revenue will be in excess of $14 million, some $2.5 million more than he estimated, would he explain to the House why he has imposed, as of September 1 of this year, an additional charge on registrations of transf ers of land and mortgages in the Land Titles Office?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General.

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 HON. R. PENNER: I think, in answering that question, it should be context; that is, we have, in dealing with problems of the Land Titles Office, ag reed to add a considerable number of staff and to step up the rate of comp uterization to better serve the people of Manitoba.

But, Madam Speaker, the real answer to that question is that we have a responsibility in line with the budget policy announced by the Mini ster of Finance to make sure that we maintain and, where possible, with as little hardship as possible, in crease revenues in order to either hold or reduce the deficit while maintaining programs. I don't see what's wrong with that. That, it seems to me, is the kind of policy they say they support. If they support it, they support it, but are they now reversing their position? Land Titles Office - revenue MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, a supplementary question to the Mini ster of Finance. In view of the fact that the costs of operating the Land Titles Office, shown in the Estimates, is less than MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. I'm trying to hear the question from the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. I would hope other members would cooperate. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. A supp lementary question to the Mi nister of Finance.

In view of the fact that the costs of operating the Land Titles Office are shown in the Estimat es to be less than $4.5 million, and the revenue is in excess of $14 million, how does the Minister of Finance justify gouging the users of the Land Titles Office for a $10 million profit when they're providing such disma l service? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Madam Speaker, the premise behind the question is not entirely correct.

The Attorney-General has indicated how he is dealing with the run on the Land Titles Office as a result of the continuing improvement in the housing situation in the Province of Manitoba; and it's as a direct result of the unanticipated continued growth in the housing sector in Manitoba that we have the problems with respect to the Land Titles Office.

But the Attorney General has taken steps to insure that there are resources and that the backlog is being dealt with, both in terms of overtime, in terms of facilitating other staff, and the addition of additional staff in order to deal with that, and he's clearly outlined that's our intention. To somehow sugge st that the only costs associated with housing in this province only relate to the direct expenditur es in the Land Titles Office is not telling the whole story. There are other expenditures throughout government that relate to housing.

Also, it hasn't been the practice to look at one area simply on a cost recovery basis. The member somehow suggested we ought to reduce those fees and reduce the revenue. At the same time, other members on the op posit e side,

part icularly the Finance critic, is suggesting we should do something about the deficit. Here we are, in one area, looking at increased revenues and making some impact on the ongoing deficit of the province and it's being crit icized by the member opposite. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Sp eaker, a final supp lementary to the Min ister of Finance. Is this $10 million tax on users of the Land Titles Office, people who are buying and selling perhaps their first or second homes, is this the type of tax reform that we can expect from his government? HON. E.

KOS TYRA: If one com pares the costs associated with those fees in Manitoba as against other provinces, you'll find that we are well in line. But the fact of the matter is, Madam Speaker, that we imposed far greater revenue increases and far greater tax increases on banks, on large corporations, on interprovincial pipelines, which every member across critic ized us for , saying we 'r e taxing the lar ge companies, and to somehow suggest that isn't prudent, Madam Speaker, is doing injustice to the truth. Crimes, violent - increase in immigrant groups MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Ell ice. MR. H.

SMITH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Attorney-General. In the recently released report of the Criminal Intelligence Service, a Federal Government report, it states, in talking about immigrant groups: "H owever, more recently triad groups have emerged. With their emergence, crime within the Asian com mu nity in Manitoba has become distinctly more visible and violent in 1985.

Extortion, armed robberies, vicious assaults, loan sharking and gambling became more evident as new immigrants continue to establish the mselves in criminal sub-culture." Can the Attorney-General verify from statistics from his department if this is true? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. May I remind the Honourable Member of Beauchesne Citation 362, "Reading telegrams, letters or extracts from newspapers as an opening to an oral question is an abuse of the Rules of the House.

It is not good parl iament ary pr actice to communic ate written allegations to the House and then to ask Ministers either to confirm or deny them." MR. H. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I'm reporting from a Federal Government Annual Report. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member's question is out of order. He asked the Minister to confirm or deny certain statistics. Order please. It is the member's responsibility to ascertain the truth of any statement before he brings 3529

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 it to the House. Did the honourable member want to rephrase his question? MR. H. SMITH: Can the Mini ster give us the statistics to show such increases in crime within the immigrant community? MADAM SPEAKER: What did he say? Order please. Could the honourable mem ber please repeat his question, I didn't hear it? MR. H. SMITH: Madam Speaker, my question is as follows: can the Mini ster give us the statistics in violent crime showing the increased crime rate within the immigrant groups in Winnipeg? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Madam Speaker, in fact, such statistics are not only not available, but in fact the statistics that are available indicate that kind of report, which has been referred to, those kinds of allegations which have been made, do in fact come perilously close to amounting to racial slurs.

I want to say, as Attorney-General of this province, I reject them; I think that's an unfair allegation concerning the immigrant communities in this province, who everybody who has any dealings with them know, are law abiding communities who come here to make their home, to participate in the economic and social life of this province, and I intend to discuss this matter with the RCMP with whom I will be meeting in a regular meeting next week and, quite frankly, call them to account. I will be, in fact, writing the Commissio ner, Mr. Simmonds, and calling him to account.

I don't think that kind of allegation has any place in our commun ity. MTS - Venture Capital Program re MTX MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speak er. The Venture Capit al Corpor ation Program was designed to lever private investment in small businesses.

To be a part of Venture Capital Corporation, a company or a person cannot have more than 10 percent equity in the operating company; and the Government of Manitoba, through MTS wholly owns MTX, will the Minister tell the House the nature of the busi ness venture and the amount of the capitalization of the proposal that was made to the government? MADAM SPEA KER : The Honourable Mi nis ter of Business Development and Tourism. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, just to clarify the Venture Capital Program that the question is relating to, it's the MTX proposal that he's asking about?

Yes, I signed a Letter of Agreement that was conditional, Madam Sp eaker, on I believe it was July 24, and the agreement will not be confirmed until the terms of the agreement have been completed. 3530 Some of those terms may, or may not be, be altered from the original proposal, and that's one of the things that will be under consideration by the review that is presently under way by Charlie Curtis, so that we are reviewing this project on two counts.

One is that it meets the requirements that we have set down and the conditions for a Venture Capital Program; the other is that it meets the legal requirements and there are legal commitments under the program that are being determined by Mr. Curtis. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, would you please call the Adjourned Debate on Bill No. 56, standing in the name of the Member for Minnedosa? ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READING BILL 56 - THE INTERI M APPROP RIATION ACT, 1986

(2) MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Ho nourable Mi nis ter of Finance, the Ho nourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. In rising to join the debate on Interim Supply, Bill 56, there leaves little, I sup pose, to be said after many of the speeches that have been heard already from this side of the House.

But when we consider we're giving approval to the granting of some $3 billion to this government to handle a large portion of it as they see fit and mismanage, Madam Speaker, it's with some grave concern and reluctance that we grant passage to an Interim Supply Bill of this size. We see a government that's been rocked with scandal, who have been stumbling from one fiasco to anoth er, and it makes one wonder just how they're going to manage the taxpayers' funds for the next several months, until we finish this Session and come back into a new one.

Ma dam Sp eaker , the list of blund ers and embarrassment and broken promises, I am sure, must make some of the supporters of this government just wonder why they have been giving it support over the years. We've seen not only a dramatic increase in the deficit, far and above that even forecast which has been staggering in itself, when we consider year after year this government is spending something like one half billion dollars in excess of the revenues that they take in.

That, in itself, has to be of grave concern to the taxpa yers, Madam Speaker, and there has to be some meaningful action taken by this government that is going to put a stop to this hemorrhage of taxpayers' dollars, a large amount of it going down the drain. It has already caused a lowering in the province's credit rating. We all know what that does, Madam

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 Speaker, it increases the cost of our borrowed funds. We're borrowing funds, a large amount of it offshore, and when we consider the dollar values and the changes in not only the Japanese yen, the American dollar versus the Canadian dollar, the interest charges that we're going to be faced with could be dramatically more than what we're already budgeting for. (Mr. Deputy Spe aker, C.

Santos, in the Chair.) We already see some 11 percent of our income now going to service our debt, service the money that we've borrowed up till now, and that I'm sure is of great concern to the Finance Minis ter because this trend cannot continue, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This trend cannot continue before this province is faced with an insurmountable debt that the childr en and grandchildren and great-grandchildren are going to just wonder why the legislators of our province let the country get into such a mess. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we've not only seen the lowering of the credit rating, we've seen this government just rock from one scandal to another. We have the Brandon Un iversity affair, where they fired the chief executive officer and president without cause, with an out-of court settlement which is costing the taxpa yers of this country something like $1 million. We're seen the firing of the Autopac chairman. We're not sure what the outcome of that is going to be yet. The Minister is conducting a search for a chief executive officer and I'm sure that he'll receive a number of applications in that job.

Hop efully, he'll be able to put someone with some good sound business knowledge back into that position and get that corporation back on a profitable basis, because the forecasters are going to lose $4 million or $5 million this year, and I don't know whether we can blame it all on bad snowstorms, hailstorms or sleet storms. The suspension of the chief executive officer of Workers Com pensation I'm sur e has caused the government some concern.

I'm pleased to see the report come in toda y th at he ha s been cleared of any wrongdoing and is now back in his role as chief executive officer of the Workers' Compensation Board. We've seen the "fire sale" of Flyer Industries and that's the only way it can be described, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is a "fire sale," because we had to really pay the Dutch company to take it off our hands.

There was a loss of millions and millions and millions of dollars of taxpayers' money, to say nothing of the Manfor Forest Industries in The Pas which is losing millions of dollars year after year after year, and it's now being partially closed down they say for a lack of timber resources. I suppose they maybe have reasons for not having the timber in, but it doesn't seem to have hindered the other sawmills in the country. I was by the Roblin Forest Products not too many weeks ago and they have a tremendous supply of logs there that will keep them going throughout the year.

If they're able to manage their operation, it seems odd that one the size of Manfor has got into the fix that it's in. The MTS and the MTX scandal is ongoing and we'll hear more of that later, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We've had the Parasiuk affair which we hope is behind us now. We've had hiring problems with Limestone. We've had problems in Natural Resources that has resulted in a special audit that may help clear up the problems there. We have a Mini ster who forgot about his student loan. So we've had a Premier who's done a flip-flop on free tr ade . The govern ment is no doub t wit hout direction, Mr.

Deputy Speaker. There are going to be many other things that will come to light before the Session ends, I'm sure, but the general public must be wondering what type of government they voted in last March 18, a government that has lost desire; it has lost direction; it has shown itself to be incapable in so many areas of managing the affairs of this province that I'm sure the people have lost confidence in it in a very, very short period of time. The hue and cry that comes from the government benches when we mention different programs, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and say, well, you want us to spend more money, you want us to cut the deficit, and yet you want us to spend more money. They seem to be able to find more money where it's needed. They're finding roughly $20 million when it's all washed out for a bridge north of Selkirk in the Premier's riding, and yet other areas are left wanting. It seems that the $20 million that we've poured into Saudi Arabia on a venture, which was probably nebulous to start with, has got the ordinary telephone user in Manitoba just wondering why his service can't be improved.

In my particular area, we have many, many municipalities, Mr. Deputy Speaker, where they have five and six councillors living five, ten miles from each other and they're all on long distance. Their telephone bills are $75 to $10 0 to $15 0 a month. They have considered that a normal procedure, but when they see a misadventure such as we see now in Saudi Arabia, where we're going to lose $17 million to $20 million, they're saying, why am I putting up with this poor service with three and four and five telephones on a party line? Why am I having to put up with this when we're throwing our money away elsewhere?

Those are the things that the people are asking, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and when questions are asked in the House on thefr behalf, we get half answers, we get no answers, or we get a ti rade agains t the Federal Government and two minutes of hand clapping on the other side of the House. That's not good enough, Mr. Deputy Spe aker, that is just not good enough. The cost to the taxpayers of borrowing the funds that are needed to keep this government going, are becoming staggering as I mentioned earlier, and I don't know how long they're going to put up with it.

We've seen the questions that were asked during question period by the Member for St. Norbert on the increased fees in the Land Titles Office bringing in millions of dol lars of add itional revenue to this government. We've seen the increase in the hydro and water rates, an increase in the natural gas tax. We've seen an increase in many, many incidental fees. We've seen increase in trappers' licences, in hunting fees, in fishing licences, in drivers' licences.

The price of gas, they run through The Trade Practices Act and they're going to try and do something to regulate the price of gas, when the main reason right at their fingertips is the provincial gas tax which is the highest in the country. They could remove some of that gas tax and get our gas prices down more in line with our sister province of Saskatchewan which sees one of the cheapest gas prices in the country. These things are having an effect out there on the ordinary Manitoban, that they're so prone to stand up 3531

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 and say we are supporting the ordinary Manitoban. Well, there's an awful lot of ordinary Manitobans out there who support members on this side of the House. I know there certainly are in my riding. Election promises were thrown out. My colleague, the Member for Emerson last night mentioned the closeness, the quality of the popular vote, so it wasn't a strong mandate that this government was given to govern this province. There were a lot of election promises thrown out and a lot of them have just gone by the wayside once the election was over.

There is a good example of one, I think, that I feel that should be read into the record. There's an editorial in the Stonewall Argus on July 23, 1986 and I'm quoting from it: "Little Su bstance to Election Promises. With the provincial election four mo nths behind them, promises made by some NOP politicians are dissipating like smoke in a prairie wind." In Selkirk - I'm glad the Premier is here, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, because he's mentioned in the editorial: "In Selkirk, Premier Howard Pawley said during the election campaign that the provincial government was willing to pump $2 million into the town's development project. The Federal Government matches the contribution. The local M.P. cried foul." Of course, accusing the province of trying to shame Ottawa into coughing up $2 million. It made front-page headlines in the newspapers, though, generating the kind of publicity politicians like to see come election time. The deal collapsed quickly.

In a letter dated April 4 about two weeks after the election: " ... the th en Mi n ister of Busi ness Development and Tourism, Jerry Storie, informed Selkirk Mayor, Bud Oliver, that the offer was withdrawn because of lack of response from the Federal Government regarding the cost-sharing agreement." What a surprise. "Last summer, with the whiff of an election in the air, Selkirk was promised $300.000 to help upgrade the town's water supply system. Early this summer, the town was informed the provincial funding for the project had been withdrawn. Let Selkirkers drink Winnipeg's dirty water.

"Last November, the Rural Mu nicipality of Coldwell and the province signed an agreement to cost-share a sewer expansion for Lundar. Premier Howard Pawley and Agriculture Minister Bill Uruski appe ared in person to sign the agreement making headlines in the local paper and no doubt hoping to foster a bit of good will in the community of Lundar shortly before a provincial election was due to be called. Earlier this summer, the residents of the community were informed that funds for the project were unavailable and that it had been postponed indefinite ly.

Everyone agrees that the sewer extension is needed, but in the words of one government offic ial, Lundar hasn't ranked in priority, yet it was ranked high enough to attract the presence of the Premier and a powerful Cabinet Mini ster when the agreement was signed less than a year ago. Is it any wonder that people doubt the words of politicians?" HON. H. PAWLEY: If you believe everything in editorials then you've got some learning to do. MR. D. BLAKE : The Premie r is making some com ments. Do we believe ever ything we read in editorials? It must . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

A MEMBER: I find it offensive when he talked about truth power. MR. D. BLAKE: The comments of editorials, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I'm sure are bothering the Premier, because there has been more than one, there's been several editorials in various papers that have just lambasted this government something unmercifully. So, I'm sure editorial comment is giving this Premier some concern, because it's little wonder that when one sits and watches the political scene in Manitoba for any length of time, they can't help but write the type of editorials as being written.

A government that's inept, it's incapable of managing anything, it's lost its sense of purpose, its sense of direction, it's old and tired. We've seen a big shuffle in the chairs, in the Cabinet benches lately. We don 't know whether that was suppos ed to be a Cabinet shuffle, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or merely rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship. It's hard for us on this side of the House to realize what we may have there. We have before us, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, a government that is asking for the support of members on this side of the House to grant them the authority to continue on their wild spending spr ee, and it's with some reluctance that members on this side of the House have to pass this bill, but we realize the consequences, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if we do not pass it. A MEMBER: Tell him the facts. MR. E. CONNERY: We have had many comments made by previous speakers, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on how the government goes about raising money.

During the Public Accounts meeting this year, the question was asked by my colleague, the Member for Morris, in connection with Manitoba Properties Inc., and we were finally provided with the information. He wondered if there was a list of the buildings that had been sold to raise something like $200 million un der the Ma ni toba Properties. The list came in, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and it was surprising the buildings that have been sold to raise funds, including the Un iversity of Fort Garry Campus buildings and the liquor commission buildings and various other buildings that were once owned by the people of Manitoba, that have been sold off and we're now paying rent. We're now renting them back for millions of dollars a year. People out there, I don't think, realize what had just happened with the Manitoba Properties situation and that is being brought to mind. We have a government that is in so much trouble, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that the minute there's a bit of a tight argument shows up, we have back benchers jumping up on points of order and various stall tactics used to try and change the trend of thought of someone who may be attacking from this side of the House. That wasn't seen in the government of 1977-8 1, the government of Sterling Lyon, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We had a strong enough front bench and a strong enough House Leader that if there were points of order needed, it was handled up there. It had nothing to do with members of the back bench.

Here we've got experts on rules and procedures in the back bench that haven't been here long enough 3532

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 to find their way to the washroom hardly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and yet they've become experts on the rules all of a sudden. I would say, guard your position jealously because there are many in the back bench who feel they're completely capable of taking over the operation of this whole Legislature, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so just guard your position jealously. Mr. Deputy Sp eaker , the In terim Supply Bill is something that comes before us each year.

It gives members an opportunity to carry on some wide ranging debate, maybe go into some of their constituency problems and I'll take that opportunity now. The constituency of Minnedosa, as you may be aware - I don't whether you've had the opportunity to visit that line part of the province or not - but we've been blessed so far this year with what appears to be a bountiful harvest. We have had some hail disasters in some small areas.

It's serious to those who were affected, but on an overall picture it hasn't been that serious, so it would appear that we're on our way to a reasonably good harvest, but that doesn't detract from the problems that are facing agriculture. The price of the commodities has continued to shrink, while the cost of farm inp uts, fertil izer, fuel and chemicals has continued to increase dramatically. This has put a tremendous price squeeze on the farm community. I had the opportunity to talk with an American farmer who was one of the few tourists who have visited Manitoba this year, I might say, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and he informed us he's paying 47 cents a gallon for diesel fuel down in his State of Ohio. That's compared with, what, diesel fuel of $2 and what would we pay up here? Diesel fuel of $2-and something a gallon here compared with 47 cents. Now that is a very difficult situation to compete with when they're buying their fuel at that price. On top of that, offering Russia some $15 a tonne subsidy if they'll only buy the surplus wheat from the United States. So far, that offer hasn't really been grabbed up by the Russian grain buyers.

They're still buying a lot of their grain from Canada and we hope that we can protect some of those markets because one of the benefits that we have in Canada is that we grow one of the finest quality Red Spring wheat grown in Canada, grown in the world. This is required to mix with a softer wheat for milling purposes, but there's no one else who can grow as good a grade of grain as we do and that, I think, is a plus for the Canadian farmer.- (lnterjection)- The Member for The Pas says, how about the grain up there? I happen to have spent some time up there and I agree with him, they grow some fine quality grain.

If they would only enlarge the area there and allow a few more farmers to become established, it might bring them a packing plant; they can raise some fine cattle up in that country. There's lots of grazing land; that would improve the economy of that particular area also. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mem bers, please come to order. I cannot hear the member who has the floor. MR. D. BLAKE: I'm having a little difficulty myself, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The farm economy is a pretty bleak situation right now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I say I've seen it happen before.

There are some of us who are old enough to remember the tough years through the Thirties and things did im prove. We've had several small recessions and recoveries since then and I'm sure we'll see another, especially in the agricultural sector, because there seems to be tenaciousness with rural agricultural people, that they have a stick-to-it iveness that doesn't seem to be prevalent throughout the rest of society. They will prevail; they'll hang in there and they'll wait for the recession to turn around and they'll have their good years.

They'll do their fair share of grumbling; they'll do their fair share of criticizing of government, but yet they'll go out and do their job and do it better than any other trade or occupation of that type, I would say, in the free world. Mr. Deputy Speaker, those are some of the things that I think are the brighter side of the picture in agriculture. As I say, we've got tremendous problems at the present time, but they're going to turn around. I'm confident they'll turn around with the general improvement in the economy and we're seeing ... Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I wonder if you'd ask the Minister of Education if he could just remind himself that he's in class for awhile and . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: May I remind all members, under Rule 44.(1), "No member shall engage in private conversation in such a manner as to interrupt the Business of the House." MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I even forgot where I was now. What were you arguing with me about? A MEMBER: You were telling us how tenacious farmers are. MR. D.

BLAKE: There's no question about it that the farm economy will return and the whole economy of Canada is showing a slight improvement; it's going to get greater, with the programs and the policies that are going to be brought in by the present Mulroney Government in Ottawa. They haven't been without their problems.

They inherited such an unholy mess, as we're all aware, after 16 years of devastation under the Trudeau regime, that it's taken them a couple of years to finally get a handle on things down there and try and redirect the ship because it was on the rocks so badly it just takes a little time to get it redi rected and get it back out into safer, calmer waters. We hear great hues and cries across the way, Mr. Deputy Speaker, about tax reform. There is no doubt the federal Finance Mini ster is looking seriously at tax reform. That is going to be a plus.

We've seen a tremendous increase or improvement in our deficit position already this year. It will continue to improve. But all we hear from members opposite is strong criticism of the Federal Government. They're crying cutbacks here, cutbacks there. When a government takes over the situation they took over and is trying as hard as they are to improve the situation without inflicting hardships on those who are unable to look after themselves, it presents a pretty bold picture for 3533

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 them to face up to; but it's being faced up to and it's being faced up to as strongly and as capably as they're capable of doing within a short period of time. (Madam Speaker in the Chair.) So we know that is one of the bright pictures, Madam Speaker.

Another 10, 12, 15, or 16 years of Federal Conservative Government will see this country back and take its rightful place as a trading nation and see our economy rolling again, where the free enterprise system and the entrepreneur is able to go out and make his way with as little hind rance from the government as can be possibly put forward.

Certainly government help is needed in a number of ways, but we don't need the impediments that have been put in the way of the government that we've seen with various legislation that's been passed by the present government in Manitoba; and I don't have to relate to the 1.5 percent sales tax, the labour legislation. The Minister now has announced that pay equity's going to file $17 million into pay equity in the next three or four years. Everyone's in agreement with pay equity and it can come about through the private sector in its own free time without any enforcement by government.

But these are the things that I mentioned earlier, that we can always find $10 million or $20 million for something like that, but we can't find millions to put in agriculture, when we consider what our sister provinces have done in agriculture. Saskatchewan and Alberta have poured millions of dollars into the agricultural sector and what have we put in here? The Mini ster says we've poured more money in agri cultur e than any other provincial government in histo ry. Sure, he took $20 million away from the Hig hways Minist er. I don't know how much he took out of Northern Affairs - only about a million.

He took some out of Natural Resources and put it into Agriculture. Well, no one can criticize that except Highways, and our transportation system is as important to rural agriculture in Manitoba as anything else. We've lifted the expectations in some of the rural areas up to the point where we rebuilt the road halfway between Neepa wa and Minn edosa, with the full expectation that we're going to get the other half this year, and all of a sudden we find there's no money, that's been cancelled. It could have something to do with the vote in March, we're not sure.

We don't want to accuse the Mi nister of that, but we're getting very, very suspicious when we look at some of the roads that are getting priority and some of them that aren't, especially with the threat he made to one or two of our members, that if they didn't go along with him they might not see any roads for awhile. The Member for Morris tells us that the six good miles of road, they've torn it up on him. So we sometimes wonder about the direction, Madam Speaker. I have touched on a number of fiascos, Madam Speaker, without mentioning Bill 4 of the Farm Bill, while I'm discussing Agriculture.

Here's a bill designed to save the family farm and it sounds catchy, protect the farmer. When we take a deep and intense look at that bill, Madam Spe aker, it's going to do none of those things. It's probably going to increase the cost of borrowing to farmers. If the bill comes through in its present form without any changes, it's probably going to dry up a lot of the traditional sources of funding for farmers to operate their farms. That's not going to be a help, it's going to be a hindrance. There are many, many of those things that we're very, very concerned about, Madam Speaker.

We've seen the Attorney-General come up with a scheme to provide aid to crime victims. It was a promise which was made during the election and everyone was in agreement with that, because I think the victims have been overlooked for so many years that the criminal now gets more attention than the victim does, so we thought that was a good move and we could applaud that. But now we find out he's going to fund it by another tax of 12 percent on the fine s impo sed on th e perpetrators of the crime or those violating provincial laws and it allows for a maximum of 20 percent.

Well, that's just another tax, Madam Speaker, and the critics have condemned that bill already, so there are a great many of the promises which this government made that have been kept - or half kept - but the imposition and the hardships im posed on the taxpayers of Manitoba, I don't think are going to benefit this government in any great way. So, Madam Speaker, as I've said in my earlier remarks, we are going to pass the Interim Supply Bill in due course. We have a great reluctance to see it go to a group of spendthrifts - incompetent, mismanaging spendthrifts that this government has proven itself to be.

A MEMBER: Socialist maniacs. MR. D. BLAKE: Someone's referred to them as socialist maniacs, Madam Speaker, but I don't know whether I would use that or not. I won't get into the "Typhoid Mary's" and coming from the "socialist swamp," that some other ML A's in this House used to use. I don't know whether that would really describe them properly or not, but there is no doubt the incompetence and mismanagement that has marred this Session of the Legislature, Madam Speaker, has been highlighted over and over and over again.

I can understand the Premier becoming a little unravelled when I read that little editorial from the Stonewall Argus that showed what his election promises meant and really what he was up to, because there have been many stronger editorial voices added to that small editorial that have spelled it out clear and loud, the incompetence, the mismanagement, and the inability of this group that we have opposite which are supposed to be governing this province, Madam Speaker, because they have displayed a total inability to grasp the situation, to handle it competently, and to come up with the proper solution or to solve any matter quickly.

They've ordered a few investigations. They've ordered a few audits that have showed up wrongdoing, but there's only so much the Auditor can do. We can't have him continually investigating something. It would appear that one scandal or one problem after the other crops up, that we should have a gr oup of watch dogs investigating all of the departments over there. We do our best on this side, but I don't know whether we're getting to the bottom of it all or not, Madam Speaker, and that brings us to the public inquiry to do with MTS and MTX.

The members on this side of the House have asked for, in as strong as possible terms as we can muster, because nobody has criticized the 3534

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 RCMP. They certainly do their job very, very thoroughly and they're very competent, but they won't investigate any areas that aren't brought to their attention that aren't of criminal nature.

So we've asked for that inquiry, in order to have employees come forward with immunity, to be sworn before an impartial group, and maybe spill the story out that they're not going to come before an RCMP investigator; they're not going to come before Coopers and Lybrand unless they're directed; and we say there are loopholes in that call for an inquiry that you can drive a truck through and there is no question about that. We may get some of the answers when the inquiry is completed. We may get a few more tomorrow in the public hearing before the committee. A MEMBER: Eventually we'll get them all, Davie. MR. D.

BLAKE: That's right, eventually we'll get them all, and if we don't, the government will get the final answer when the next election is called, and the sooner the better, Madam Speaker. But the answer will be there loud and strong at that time. So, Madam Speaker, with those remarks, when the time comes, I will be adding my support to the passage of the Interim Supply Bill to allow the government to operate and to pay out the various sums that they're required to pay, such as salaries and social assistance payments and payments to tho se others who are less able to look after themselves than some of us are.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Almost two years ago now, or even a little more than that, when I decided I was going to run to be the ML A for Portage la Prairie, I was doing it because I had a deep concern for the constituency of Portage la Prairie. Madam Spe aker, I didn't need the job of being an MLA.

I could have quite nicely stayed at home on the farm with the boys and probably made a little more money and probably would have enjoyed the summer an awful lot more than we had this stupid year, but I had a deep concern for my community in many different ways. I had a concern for the phi losophical way that this current government has been taking our province, to what it's doing to the imagination and viability and vigour of the people of this province, by making everybody de pendent on gov ernment, looking to government for whatever they can get before they even try to do things on their own.

This really has concerned me. But my deeper concern was the financial future of ourselves, but not so much for the generation that I am in, but the future generations of my children and my grandchildren, Madam Speaker. With the way we're going, I don't think there will be much of a future by the time my grandchildren get to be ready to pay taxes. I think the Member for lnkster, who is just celebrating the birth of his first child, Madam Spe aker, I think that member should be very concerned that having brought somebody into this world that he should be concerned about the future of that child.

I think the irresponsibility of that member, along with the members opposite, by not looking at the fiscal responsibilities, are jeopardizing the future of that child along with all of the other children of this province. Madam Speaker, we take a look at the first quarter statement, not as quite as late as the fourth quarter, I must admit, but the Min ister of Finance says that well we're only 27 million over our predicted deficit. He said to us, Madam Speaker, that was because there were timings in the payment or receiving of money. Well, any business will tell you where these shortfalls or incomes have come.

The Mini ster doesn't tell us that in the finance sector, they are up $20 million over last year - $20 million - and he doesn't tell us, though, the breakdown of where this $20 million is going. How much of that is going to pay the increased interest on the debt we are incurring in this province? But, Madam Speak er, they talk about the 27 million greater deficit than projected, but I think much more severe than that is the $101 million more in expenses than what we incurred last year in that period of time -$101 million more spent than what we had spent the previous year of the first three quarters.

They also show, Madam Speaker, that the income is up 98.5 million. That sounds like a fairly good increase in income, but when you analyze the income factor we find, Madam Speaker, that 72.2 59 million has come from the feds. You know, those real bad guys down east sent us about three-quarters of the increase in income that we have achieved in the first three quarters of this year. The Min ister of Finance and members opposite kept on saying they are cutting the money coming to Manitoba, they are cutting the flow of money. Madam Speaker, 72 million does not seem to me like a very large cut.

I would say it was a very large increase, but they try to blame the feds for everything they've done, that is happening, while they do nothing themselves. They're an absolute do-nothing - I call it mentally constipa ted - I don't know, does Beauchesne frown on that word? -(I nterjection)- Well, I'm just asking if it's okay, I' ll use it, because that really epitom izes what is MADAM SPEAKER: For the informatio n of the honourable member, I hav en't heard any objections. MR. E. CONNERY: Oka y. Well, I guess they accept the fact that that's what's going on.

So, Madam Spe aker, I think when we look at some of our debt comparisons - and I think we have to be very cognizant of what's been happening in the last while and what various governments have done - looking at the list of the debt over the last years going back to 1968, the province was in debt for $1 billion. Madam Speaker, during the tenure of Sterling Lyon, when we came in, the debt had risen to $3.5 billion. So, the Schreyer years, they added $2.5 billion to the debt.

During the Sterling Lyon years, the four years that he tried to put in some fiscal restraints, the deficit went up 1 billion, but in the next five years of sorry NDP Government, our total indebted ness rose $4 billion to where we are now, almost $8.5 billion in debt. I think that is a pretty sad commentary on a province that has so much to give and such a poor government with which to work with the assets this province has. We can look at the percentages of expenditures in excess of revenues; 1979, 5.4 percent; 1980 - who was 3535

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 in power in 1980 - not bad, it was 2.4 percent; 1981, 4.5; and then 1982, 11.5; then 18 percent; then 15.3; 16.4; and 16.95 last year, Madam Speaker. This is a government that is showing fiscal respon sibil ity. They just don't understand what makes a province run, how to get the machine going that's going to provide the income that we need to do the services that we want to give our people. Madam Speaker, the deficits also for the past few years, and we'll go through them just to kind of ind icate what this current government has done: '78-79, 84 million ;'7 9-80, 44; then 89.

All of a sudden we changed the government; 251 million, 434 million, 428 million, 482 million, and $554 million deficit last year, Madam Speaker. All we have to do is look at the collision course that this government is taking us on, and we won't have very much to offer in the future.

I gu ess, maybe, Madam Speaker, you and I are at that stage of life that we don't need that much for many more years, but I know that you have a young daughter - well maybe you do want a little more, I don't know - but I think we have to be cogniz ant that you have a daught er, and I think she's only 16 years old, and hopefully she will get married and have a family. What about those young children? I think that's what you have to address is that those childr en have very bleak futures. But, Madam Speaker, I thought I would try to take a look at where we are in debt.

We look at the provincial debt, and I didn't take the maximum, I took the other figure of $6,932, but then we have to add another $400 on to that - that's per capita debt - because under the Manitoba Properties Incorporated, the amount that we owe doesn't show on the books, a nice little way of hiding de bt this is the sneakine ss, the underhanded ness that this government has done - that brings it up to $7,332.00. I haven 't got an absolute, but it is in the very round figures of $9,000 per capita debt. We add those two figur es together, Madam Speaker, and we have over $16,000.00.

But then we have to take a look at it, that's fine, $16,000 per capita debt, but how many people pay income tax in this country? The figures that I got are around the 40 percent mark, so when you take 16,000, but only 40 percent of the people are paying taxes, they are the people who are going to have to pay this debt off that this government is now incurring, and that comes, Madam Speaker, when you two-and-a-half times it, $40,000 per taxpayer is the debt we have incur red here. You add that to your city tax, your R.M. tax, and you find that you are really, really deeply in debt.

I look at our farm and the number of children I have and daughters-in-law on the farm, our farm has a debt of a quarter-of-a -million dollars of provincial and federal debt, way over what we have as a farming debt, but still we are going to be obl igated unless we pass it on down to our grandchildr en, then we won't have to pay it. But, I can see the legacy that they're going to say, thank you very much. But when you look back over the figures that I gave you, it shows you that the Schr eyer Government made deficits permissive. The Pawley Government has made deficits and deficit financing absolutely mandator y.

And once again, if the Member for lnkster is listening, he should be somewhat concerned about his little child. How did this debt occur, Madam Speaker? Federal ly, we had 15 years of Liberal rule; 15 years of excess 3536 spending, irresponsible spending, getting us deeper in debt each year the same as this Provincial Government is doing to us right now. When the PC Government came into power a couple of years ago, they decided they would do some things to try to reduce the deficit. They accepted fiscal responsibil ity.

They knew it wasn't vote-getting, but they started to attack what they knew had to be atta cked, and that was excess spending. Also Cr own corporations, which we see in this province. and we'll talk about them a little later, as being one of the great money losers that governments can have. So they have started to dis pose of Crown corporations which, in the long run, will save the taxpayers of Canada an awful lot of money.

All we have to do, Madam Speaker, is to read the Nielsen Report and see the overlap in programs and chaos that's there to know that a lot of new dir ection has to be taken federally and provincial ly. Madam Speaker, we wonder why we are in deficit, and it's already been mentioned - Flyer, in 1980 or'81, my information was we could have maybe realized $10 million out of Flyer because it wasn't sold until just this last year - that Flyer Ind ustry has cost the taxpayers of Manitoba well in excess of $100 milli on, Madam Speaker .

We say we sold it to the Dutch firm den Oudsten but, Madam Speaker, we don't know yet how much money is going to cost us to have them take it off our hands. Is it going to be 3 million, 5 million, 8 million? This we won't know until all these buses have been refitted and all our obl igations for Flyer have been settled. But this could be an awfu lly , awfully - (Interjection)- was he the Min ister at one time? He's the economist. Oh, I see.- (lnterjection)- Madam Speaker, $100 million would have gone an awful long way.

I would estimate that probably Flyer with the loss - it's going to be well over 125 million - would have gone an awful long way to paying some of the costs that the farmers are incurring. For two years we could have written off all school taxes off all farm lands, but no, no, this incompetent government chooses to carry on with something that has no hope and costs the taxpayers of Manitoba $125 million. Madam Speaker, we go into Manfor . When the NDP Government took over Man for, I'm told there was something like $14 mill ion spent on it. What is the ind ebted ness we have in Manfor now?

It's not indeb tedness, they say it's shares. This province has put in $252 million into Manfor and they are asking for an additional $13.5 million for this year which shows you the incr ease. What could this do for the people of Manitoba in services? What would it do for the farmers? Madam Speaker, the taxes that we propose to take off farm land last year, would have been more than covered by that $13.5 million. The y talk about the debt for 1984 -85, Ma dam Speaker, and this is where I really get upset because this government is very deceitful.

They say it's $30 million but they do not include a $5 million write-off that took place this year . In any busine ss that $5 million is a loss, but they did not put it in the books in the same way and the accountant that went over the books said that it was not the proper way to do accounting. So now we're up to 35 million, Madam Speak er, but we have no return on the share capital that we've put into Ma nfor. If we take that money at 10 percent we're looking at another $25 million and now we're up to

- Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 $60 million - $60 million, Madam Speaker, per capita, $60 times two-and-a-half - we're looking at a lot of money, Madam Speaker, that the people in Manitoba owe and it's not really achieving any results. Everything that the Mini ster for Manfor forecast goes right down the tube, it just doesn't wash. But what can you expect from the Member for Flin Flon? He was the Mini ster of Business Development and Tourism.

We've looked at what the Auditor said about the Department of Business Development and Tourism, along with the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology, two of the worst run departments in the government. It's right there in the Auditor's report. Now these are the people who are supp osed to be running busi nesses - government businesses - helping the private sector and, Madam Speaker, they can't even run their own departments. That shows you just how shallow we are.

That same Min ister was the Minister of Tourism also and he led the groundwork, he made the bed for our Tourism this year; and I'll tell you, there's a lot of holes in the springs 'cause we're going right through the bottom. We look at what is happening in Saskatchewan. Tourism is up. The traffic by car is up 5 percent. The non-car vehicle auto is up 15 percent but we're down 22 and 13 percent. The State of Minne sota - and I just had an

article given to me today showing the huge increases in Tourism in the State of Mi nnesota. But they also showed that they increased their budget from $1. 9 million to $5 million in effective - effective - advertising, Madam Speaker, and I think that's what the current Min ister of Tourism and Busin ess Development needs to take some account of.

It's pretty sad when we were asking questions in the House and of course the Mini ster knew that, because of MTS, I wasn't able to get my question on Tourism in question period; but she was sitting there with this list and she had gone over all of the results of Tourism for that month and she found one sector that had something that was good, 16 percent increase going east to west. Well naturally they're going, right straight through to Saskatchewan, but at Saskatchewan they stopped; they didn't bypass Saskatchewan, Madam Speaker; they stopped in Saskatchewan.

What did we do to stop those tourists here in Manitoba? Madam Speaker, we did very little and we talked about, what are you doing about signs and so forth? Well, we're working on it; after the tourists have gone through. You know, that's like closing the barn door after the cows got out and boy, are they good.- (lnterjection)- Well, she knows what I'm talking about. It's bafflegab and you know, hope that you can get something on, and hope that the Speaker cuts me off before I get my second question in. So you've lucked out two days in a row now, you know it's not always going to happen.

We can take a look at MPIC and see what's happened there, and they've had to fire the manager of MP IC for some illegal doings. But you know, when you have a problem in a department, don't just look at the guys who are doing the things wrong, you have to go straight to the top, because any time there's problems in a company it's often situated right at the top, and that starts at the Premier, going down through the Cabinet Min isters and I think that lack of knowledge, lack of understanding has led to a lot of the things that we have seen happen.

Workers Com pensat ion, Madam Sp eak er, a department that's operating illegally. It's in the book. They're operating illegally.

We are not allowed to run a deficit but yet we're going to run a deficit because we don't want to charge the employers because they're going to be all upset; but we've got a social program that we want to give for the people of Manitoba on the backs of the employers and they're doing things - Madam Sp eaker , when they took over Workers Comp ensa tion, there was a $36 million surplus. (lnterjection)- Now, we're $36 million surplus in the thing, now I'm not sure what it exactly is today but it is close to 30 again in total.

So there we have somewhere like $60 million, in five years, that incompetent government and incompetent Min ister have frittered away. But I guess if you're too busy smacking mosquitoes you haven't got time to concentrate. We can look at the Manitoba Properties Incorporated, Madam Speaker, and I mentioned it already before where they've hidden a lot of money; $400 million is what we owe on the provincial buildings.- (lnterjection) The Minister says that they're not sold. Technically, he's right. But to fully own them again it's going to cost us $400 million.

Madam Speaker, that's like you having a house paid for and then selling it and renting it back for yourself . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. I'm having great difficulty hearing the honourable member. If other members want to have a conversation they can indulge in it elsewhere. MR. E. CONNERY: Madam Speaker, what we've done with our government buildings is tantamount to selling your home, taking the money and buying a cottage at the lake, having a holiday, buying a boat, and then having to pay interest on your own home for the rest of your life.

That is exactly what we've done, Madam Speaker, and anybody who's done that in their own private life knows the duress and the financial stress that you have after that. That's exactly what we've done. ManOil, $10 million we've invested in ManOil. The interest, depending on the rate that we assess to it - 8, 9, or 10 percent - is costing us somewhere between the area of $2,000 and $2, 700 per day for ManOil. We produce a total or around 100 barrels a day.

In simple arithmetic the int erest on a barrel of oil alone is $20 to $27; but in Estimates the Minister told us that it cost him about 13-something to produce it; and they were selling it for 16 -something. But, Madam Speaker, the interest alone, they don't include the investment in a business and when you don't do that, then you're not showing the books as being fair, and this is what this government does. They hide all the facts from the people of Manitoba and this is how they got elected and this is how they're striving to be re-elected by hiding the facts from the people.

MTS-MTX, well, three incompetent Min isters - I call them the three blind mice - how could three Min isters have been so blind for so long that they didn't see anything that was going on? So, there's an old saying you know, the little monkey that hear no evil, see no evil, they for sure are very reminiscent of half the monkey, at least, because they see no evil and they hear no evil. 3537

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 Madam Spea ker, the Member for Dauphin was in through a whole period at this time. He sits very quiet while the MTS discussions are on, Madam Speaker, because he knows darned well that he is largely responsible for the mess that's there. The new Min ister has inherited a mess, and isn't competent enough to get out of it, but the other two - and the Mini ster for Brandon East sitting very quiet now when we speak about MTS. He is very much responsible 'cause he was one of the Min isters also through this whole MTX mess. What did they do?

You know, he was the Min ister in charge of McK enzie Seeds, Madam Speak er, when McK enzie Seeds went broke; a good friend of the manager of Mc Kenzie Seeds, and he didn't have the insight to know that guy was dragging us down the tub es. No w ho w can you be a close friend with somebody? First of all you've got a pretty poor choice of friends if that guy's going to stick you in the back, but that's exactly what happened. He was a good friend of Bill Moore, who is now serving two-and-a-half years in Stony for what McKenzie Seeds - along with two others - who went to jail.

Madam Spe aker, this just shows you that if you don't have the knowledge and the compe tence, then everything goes down around with you. Usually what happens under a company reflects what's on top of the company. You know, Madam Speaker, the Memb er for Dauphin who sits in the chair, like I said, during MTS he's pretty quiet. Well, he's a very ineffective Mini ster; he's got no power in Cabinet. We can see the way his budget was cut. Anybody with power in Cabinet would not have a cut budget, Madam Speaker, but they say, Mr.

Min ister, the Mi nister of Hig hways, this is what you're going to do and you're just going to have to take a cut. But also he's a very arrogant person, Madam Speaker. When somebody refused to shake his hand in Dauphin in the election, I don't know if he had her fired or moved over or something, but something happened. Madam Sp eake r, he solicited for money from the road contr actors during the election. I saw a copy of one of those letters of request for money.

Madam Spe aker, how do you have any honesty and morality when you are soliciting money from the people who are going to be doing business with the government later on? It is also the fact that he's politicized road building MADAM SPEAKER: I do hope the honourable member is not reflecting on the honesty of another member of the Cham ber. MR. E. CONNERY: No, no, we're just saying that mo rally you shou ldn't be soliciting mone y from somebody you're going to be doing business with. If I said something wrong, I withdr aw it, Madam Speaker, I'm not trying to impute anything.- (Interjection) - No, no.

Madam Speaker, we have the third blind mouse, the Member for St. James who is the current Mini ster of MTS. Madam Speaker, he wasn't competent enough to be a Mi nister when the government first came in. He's has had to sit on the backbenches, and then they finally give him a real dandy when they give him the MTS and MTX affair. Madam Speaker, hasn't it been a pitiful sight in this House to see him stand up there? Madam Speaker, he's stonewalled. There·s been what I consider cover-ups.

There's been misinformation to this House, to the committee that we've been in, and he still refuses to allow for an inquiry, an inquiry that would bring out all of the facts so that the people of Manitoba would know exactly where they stood with MTS and MTX. Madam Speaker, before I leave, I must say that in your role as an MLA before becoming Speaker, you were, I think, the acting chairman of MTS, and I think vice-chairman of MTS, the board.

Madam Speaker, I know these are political appointments - and it's done by all parties - so that members can get a little more income, but I do think when the person is sitting there that there is some responsibi lity to at least attempt to do a job, so I have to lay blame really on all the members of the Board of MTS along with the three blind mice, or Ministers, because nobody was asking questions; nobody was delving into it. You mean to tell me that you have a company and the Minister does not take a look at the financial statements or the board does not look at the financial statements?

Now, they can't find a financial statement for MTX. Madam Speaker, that's un believable in the business world that something like this would happen. Well, I guess it's unfortunate, but I guess most of them have never run a business and they don't understand. Madam Speaker, before I came into this House I thought I recognized how pathetic and how poor a government this NO P Government really is. It's just, Madam Speaker, I can't believe that it's that much worse than I had any comprehension of it being.

Madam Speaker, the current Minister of Finance and the previous Minister of Finance are devoid of any courage or grasp of what this province needs from a Finance Min ister. Madam Speak er, since the NDP Government took over in'81, we've seen three credit rating reductions. What does this mean to the people of Manitoba? Madam Speaker, it costs us more money for interest, and so we see a higher cost because we are not handling our funds prudently.

We've seen huge losses, Madam Speaker, and I think if I remember the Member for Emerson said it was something like $200 million on foreign exchange, and the Min ister of Finance gets up and bafflegabs and tries to allay that didn't really happen. Well, Madam Speaker, I can't buy that. We see that the Finance Department itself can't forecast what's happening when they go $20 million over in three months.

That department is the one that should be able to handle its finances better but, as I pointed out, he was also the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, and we know what the Auditor said about his department. Madam Speaker, I've heard several members say that the Minister of Finance has been an honest person, but since I've come into this House, I can't say that the Min ister has been straightforward in the answers that he gives us.

First of all, they hid the fourth quarter until after the election, and I guess we know why; because if that fourth quarter report had have come out before the election, everybody in this House knows that the NOP would not be in power and they would not have a very large opposition. The popu lace would have been stunned, but this ope n-and-hon est government that the First Minister tells us that they 3538

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 have just doesn't come through in my mind as being very straightforward. Take a look at the Jobs Fund, Madam Speaker. We see that - what - is there $70-75 million in the Jobs Fund this year? We tried to find out where the Jobs Fund money is going to be spent. We don't know; we're not told. There's no plan as to where this $75-plus million is going to be spent, Madam Speaker. We even go into Estimates, and it's not even in the Estimates, the sector where they spent the money.

If we hadn't have asked the Mi nister of that particular Esti mate how much money in the Jobs Fund was spent, we would not know what was spent. Madam Speaker, the NOP says that we are a one issue party, but where were they then when we were going through all of the Estimates? We went through Estimates, I would say pretty thoroughly , and if we look at the Department of Agriculture, we went through probably as thoroughly as that department has ever gone through.

I think the members on this side, and I think the new members on this side have worked hard, a little bit not knowledgeable, but have worked to grasp their areas, and along with the seasoned veterans and the very capable seasoned veterans, Madam Speaker, that we are fortunate to have on this side of the House, I think the Estimates had a pretty good grilling. All one has to do, if they say we're a one-issue party, is to read Hansard. Hansard will tell you what happened. Madam Speaker, they blame the feds for everything; they blame it for ag ricul tur al pr ob lems.

We see Saskatche wan and Alberta putting in huge sums of money to shore up their agricultural industry. They blame the feds for their education policy; they blame them for their health problems; they blame them for everything. Madam Speaker, we also see that just this week - (Int erjection)- Well, the guy who wants to hard ball talks, but, you know, the Member for Thompson better first learn how to throw a ball and to get into business. I would still say that -(Interjection)- but, Madam Speaker, also this government says they're an open and honest govern ment.

Madam Sp eak er, the freedom of information bill has been passed, but it hasn't been proclaimed. Madam Speaker, I can understand why they don't want to proclaim the free of information bill, because then we would have another year or so - or all this winter - to go through all of the goodies that they've got hidden, and it would be an astounding revelation to the people of Manitoba just to find out how terrible this government is. Madam Speaker, I was really offended this week - I guess it was last week - when we see the now again Min ister of Energy and Mi nes when he has been vindicated of conflict of interest.

It's one thing to be convicted of conflict of interest in a court of law, but there are other things to the morality and the justification of what you do in business. Madam Speaker, they rode him in here on a beautiful white steed, but my estimation is that it should have been a very dark grey plough horse, because I don't think the Mini ster of Energy and Mines is just as clear and clean as what he would like us to think he is, and this government and the First Min ister trying to save his hide for the next election is sure trying to shore up. They grieved and they went on and on.

Madam Speaker, did they know that that Minister had used the tax scam, the tax scam that the then Finance Mini ster said was legalized theft? Finally, one came out, Madam Speaker, one came out. That's what had happened. Well, you know, yes, he shouldn't have done it. But, Madam Speaker, convenient - the memory doesn't work very good. We've got another one with a poor memory when it comes to tax scams, the mosquito man. But, Madam Speak er, there was a second tax scam, and you know that in March he couldn't remember what had taken place in January or late December. Madam Speaker, that's a very convenient memory.

When you tell me that anybody with that kind of a memory should be riding a white steed, then I am concerned. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Min ister of the Environment on a point of order. HON. G. LECUYER: Madam Speaker, I just heard the Member for Portage refer to myself as the mosquito man who couldn't remember his transactions in regard to R and D, when, first of all, a letter was provided to the press which contradicts what he is saying. This letter was obtained for all members of this House, which they distinctly got ... -(Int erjection)- MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON . G.

LECUYER: ... and secon dly, Madam Speaker, I don't think it is the appropriate procedure in this House to call members by other than their actual name in this House. I would ask the Member for Portage to withdr aw his remarks, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage knows that members should only be referred to by their title in this Ho use, their constituency or their title. In terms of the Mi nister's following comments, a dispute over the facts is not a point of order. MR. E.

CONNERY: Madam Speaker, if that offends the Mi nister of Environment, who won't kill mosquitoes, then I' ll withdraw that statement, he's not a mosquito man. So if that makes him happy, I'm quite willing to accommodate, there's no problem there at all. But I'm sure that all the mosquitoes in the next election will be voting for him. Madam Speaker, how much time have I got left? MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member has six minutes remaining. MR. E. CONNERY: Oka y.

Madam Speaker, I think to be able to maintain the programs - and I'd better point out how incompetent this government is and why we're in the trouble that we're in - but if we want to maintain the programs that we feel are necessary and, as the Member for Rossmere said yesterday, that Education and Health are the two biggest, and do we want to cut from there? And no, we don't want to cut from there, Madam Speaker. But if we don't want to cut programs and have to reduce the deficit, then we have 3539

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 to do it from the economic side and that's where industr y, Madam Speaker, will provide the boost that we need. It's in Ontario if we take the lesson. We can see Ontario and they're budgeting not to cut programs, but they all are budgeting to cut the deficit. Why? Because their industry, their economy is growing, and they'r e generating wealth and therefore they can cut the deficit without cutting the programs that we all want. Madam Speaker, this is exactly what this province needs, but it's exactly what the members opposite haven't got an inkling as to how to go about doing it.

Ma dam Speaker, we see the number of people who are in government services and we need government services. I'm not against government services; we all need government services, but people in government services do not generate new wealth. Madam Speaker, they just spend money within the province. If we are to increase the wealth of this province it's going to be by what we export or what we get from those bad guys called the feds. That's the only way we're going to increase the net wealth of our province.

So the Federal Go vernment is continuing to increase the grants to us, but maybe not as fast as what they were increasing before. Madam Spe aker, it's through manufactu ring, but manufacturing is down in this province. In spite of all the activity that Limestone has generated, private investment in manufacturing is down. Processing is where we need to get additional money and we see some going on in Manitoba. We have some of the best pot atoes in North America, and we see the companies responding by expanding.

We see the needle trades industry where we can export a lot of goods out of Manitoba, but what do we see? A government come in with rid iculo us legislation, and where do they go? A part of one company takes part of their operation to Thunder Bay where they're dealing with a reasonable government. You can't tell these people that some of this labour legislation is bad for people, for the workers of the province. They put it in and then find that they drove the industry out, but it looked good initially, it was a vote-gett er. But, Madam Speak er, it was a job-c oster.

In the net terms, the workers of this province suffered. Madam Speaker, if we are to improve our financial situation, we have to export more than what we import and along with the federal contribution. If it wasn't for provinces like Ontario and Alberta who are contributing to our wealth - and you know, if I was one of those other provinces doing a good job I would be somewhat annoyed having to pay those other provinces that are doing a poor job - and Manitoba up to now, is not doing a very good job. Madam Speaker, the problem, as I pointed out earlier, starts at the top.

Honesty, sincerity, ethics, hard work, imagination, compassion, those are all things that have to emanate down from the top. But, Madam Speaker, we don't see much of that coming from the other side. They talk about compassion, Madam Speak er, but it's a compassion to get votes. We see the First Minister smile so prettily and then he gets into one of his tirades about how the poor people of Manitoba go. That is his compassion and he epitomizes that old saying: "Of all my wife's relatives, I like me best." Madam Speaker, that sits with that side of the House; they like them best.

Madam Speaker, we have to put a lid on the deficit. There is no question. If we don't put a lid on the deficit, this province is going to be in trouble. I was speaking to the Minister of Natural Resources, and I think he's an intelligent person. Madam Speaker, unless we have an all-party agreement to have a maximum per capita debt that all parties have to live with, we will always be in a vote-buying position where we are looking for votes by promising, promising, promising. For the sake of future -(I nterjection)- We will make our priorities; we will set our priorities.

Maybe the Overhill Drain might have to be cut, but we've got to put our expenses in order, and we don't need all the highways in Dauphin. We could take one highway out of Dauphin and put the Overh ill Drain in, in Portage, Madam Speaker. But I think, unless we have an all- party agreement, wher e we have an agreement entrenched like you went through the French issue - except we shouldn't have to fight about it - Madam Speaker, the priorities of the Government of the Day would be, if they want to increase services, they're going have to increase the revenue, which means taxes, so they're going to be caught.

And if the people who are paying yell too much, then they're going to pull back on the services and hold the taxes down. Madam Speaker, that's the only way I can see that we can stop this province and this country by going bankrupt is by putting on an agreement what we know that we can handle, otherwise we're going to destroy future generations, and anybody who is not concerned, then should not be a member of this House. Madam Speaker, when I was on a trip down to the United States, I was watching American cable TV, I saw a program and this company put it on.

It was a program of the child having his father on trial and saying, "Father, why did you do this to me?" Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, my comments today are addressed as much to honourable members opposite, Manitobans and members on this side, just as much as they are to young Robyn Lindsay Scott born to a member of this Legislature and his wife a week ago or so. I think young Robyn will have to face a number of unpleasant realities as she gr ows a little older .

I certainly congratulate the Scott family on the arrival of Robyn and I trust that all went well for the family at the time of the birth. I wish the family all the very best in terms of happiness, prosperity, and security in the future. But someday when Robyn is old enough to read and understand, Madam Speaker, I hope her father will have the courage to pull out an old dusty Hansard and show young Robyn a copy of my speech because I feel very strongly about some of the things that I'm going to say.

My remarks could equally be directed to other young Manitobans and your fami ly, Madam Speaker, and my family, and right across this province. Young Manitobans have reason to be concerned about the events of this particular Session and the events that surely will follow in the next - who knows how long before another 3540

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 election comes and we have the opportunity perhaps to right some of the wrongs and perhaps to make changes that will ensure a better future for Robyn and her contemporaries in this decade and in the remainder of this century. A little while ago, Madam Speak er, from his seat, the Premier of this province made some comments to me, shortly after a brief discussion he appeared to have with the Honourable Minister of Employment Services and Economic Securi ty, something to the effect that Dr.

Paton in the City of Brandon is calling for me to make an apology for having asked questions in this House. Madam Speaker, I'll tell you just a little bit more about that in a moment, but let me begin by saying that I make no apologies to anyone for anything I say in this House, where I am doing my best to represent the interests of the people I represent. I make no apology for speaking and standing in my place in this House and asking questions of this government that require answers. As far as Dr.

Paton is concerned , who knows very well the situation referred to by the Honourable First Minister a little while ago, I find it surprising that he should be demanding apologies from me, and I believe from the Minister of Education; however, if an apology is forthc oming, perhaps it should be coming from the Min ister of Education. Madam Speaker, some time ago in this House I asked the Minister of Education if about $1 ,200 worth of legal fees had been paid by Brandon Un iversity on behalf of Dr. Paton and another gentleman, having to do with a threatened lawsuit.

The answer given by the Mini ster of Education on August 6 in this House was the following, Madam Speaker: "I can indicate to the honour able member that yes, in fact the $1 ,2 00 referenced in a question the member gave to me somewhat earli er, was in fact paid by Brandon University, Board of Governors." Now, Madam Speaker, the only reason I raise this is because of the unfair spurious allegation shown across the floor by the First Mini ster of this province. Madam Speaker, if "spurious" is not a proper word, I will withdraw it without having to be asked - incorrect allegation - I shall say.

If the First Min ister took the time, Madam Speaker, to inform himself or even to spend a few minutes with his own Mini ster of Education, I'm sure the Minister of Education would clear the matter up very quickly for the First Minister. Does he have no confidence in the Minister of Education? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: No, no! A MEMBER: No, would you? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Sometimes I have confidence in the Min ister of Education and some days I don't. In point of fact, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, as it turns out, the legal fees referenced in my question were not paid by Brandon University and I'm happy to be able to report that to the House. I wish the Mi nister had done that instead of me. It would have been good, I think, for the Minister to correct his statement. 3541 I don't blame him for the inaccuracy of this statement, but here again, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do have to comment that the people at Brandon University who advised the Min ister have not been doing a very good job of advising him. They've been misleading him and I'm saying the Minister shouldn't be putting up with that. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we have another Minister who doesn't mind being misled. I say that is not a very good sign of leadership for our province and for the people of this province, that Min isters will allow them selves to be misled, and then relay that incorrect information to honourable members in this House. I think that's a disservice to our province and I hope it will stop. In the case of the Minister of Education, I have reason to believe that it will stop; but in the case of the Min ister of Labour, I don't have that same kind of confidence.

My friends on this side say I shouldn't be so charitable to the Honourable Mi nister of Education. Well, perhaps their judgment is better than mine, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I will not do so on a regular basis but when the Minister of Education deserves to be singled out for some credit, then I will, like I said earlier in the Session, I'll be the first in this House to do that. But perhaps my colleagues are correct that I'm being far too kind to the Minister of Education and I'll watch myself in the future, so I apologize for that. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, another thing that really bothered me a lot in the last little while, on July 14 the Western Report Magazine put out an

article entitled, "H ere comes the lef t." Well honourable members opposite will be quick to clap their hands and to support even the Communist party if it means getting rid of the Tories - they'd rather have the Commun ists than the Tories -(Inter jection)- but honourable members opposite say that's not true. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the other night the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek brandished an ad, which I take it was used in the last election campaign, put out by the Communist Party of Manitoba, and at no time have I heard honourable members opp osite publicly repudiate or disassociate themselves from that ad, so let them not say, "Oh, no," today, when I tell them that they'd rather have the Communist Party running this province than the Tories.- (lnterjection)- Mr. Deputy Speaker, honourable members opposite say that's a low comment for me to make and perhaps it's beneath me.

Let them stand in their places when they get the opportunity and repudiate that ad. It hasn't happened yet. Did they have to wait for me to tell them to do it? Why is it taking them so long, Mr. Deputy Speaker? As I said, it was of some concern to me that we hear in Ju ly, here comes the left in the Western Report. It was a report about some of the new members in the Alberta Legislature, Mr. Deputy Speaker, some of the new ND P members. The story on that issue was that the picture of politics in Alberta is changing.

The story was never that the Conservative Party of Alberta won another astonishing landslide victory. The story was that the NDP got oh, 14, 16 seats, whatever it was - the ND Party, as the Western Report calls it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I'd like to quote something said by a New Democrat member of the Alberta Legislature by the name of Marie Laing: "When I heard about the value placed on the fami ly, I reflect upon the fact that

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 the most dangerous place in this society for women ahd children is in the family." That was said by the new NOP ML A in Alberta, Marie Laing. HON. J. STORIE: What does it mean, Jim? MR. J. McCRAE: Well, the Mini ster of Education asks me what the Member for Alberta meant. I suggest if this matter concerns the Minister of Education, which it should, that he get on the telephone right away and find out just what that meant. If this is the kind of philosophy that honourable members opposite support, let them get to the bottom of it.

To be fair to the Mini ster of Education who is shaking his head in obvious disgust and dismay, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will go on and I will get out of the actual quoted material because there is no more here, but it does say that the Leader of the NOP in Alberta, Mr. Raymond Martin, were quick to deny that their party is anti-fami ly, as the remark clearly suggests. Well, how can you have it both ways? How can you say something like that and then say that you're not anti-family? Now this member in Alberta, Mr. Deputy Speaker, surely was talking about being anti-violence.

That is something that we're all against, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but it betrays a certain philosophy when words like, ". . . the most dangerous place in this society for women and children is in the family." It does betray a certain disrespect for some family traditions in this country and I must say I don't share it. I'm on my feet to repudiate such statements. I would have nothing to do with it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I hope it doesn't represent government policy in this province or any other province in this country. Her solution of this New Democrat from Alberta is more social workers, Mr. Deputy Speak er.

The Alberta New Democratic Party also has, as a few of its planks, of its platform: "abortion on demand; equal pay for work of equal value", and I stress here in the public sector. Even the Alberta New Democrats won't go so far as to take pay equity into the private sector. More platforms, Mr. Deputy Speaker: "universal day care; greater intervention by social workers in troubled families"; and, of course, "homosexual rights", Mr. Deputy Speak er. These things trouble me, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , as we head into the 21s t Centu ry, and as I think of the young children of this province I think, what are they looking to? The programs that I mentioned here, as being part of the platform of the New Democratic Party of Alberta, are expensive programs whether we think they're right or wrong, Mr. Deputy Speaker, they're expensive, they're costly. The New Democrats would like to have those programs in Alberta now, when we can't afford them in Alberta, we can't afford them in Manitoba. These things have to be brought in as and when our fina nces permit it.

This is something that has failed to attract the attention of honourable members opposite in the last five years, that the problem with these honourable members is that it doesn't matter where the money comes from. They can always borrow it. Well, I believe - whether they'll admit it now or not, Mr. Deputy Speaker - our Minister of Finance understands the problem that he has been given and I don't think he has any illusions about him being the Mini ster who is able to solve those 3542 problems, considering a continuing increased pressure on him by his colleagues for some of these programs that I've mentioned.

But I hope in whatever small way he can, that he will moderate the demands of his colleagues to bring them into line with reason and with what can be afforded in this province. But during this Session, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I as the Member for Brandon West have raised several issues and brought them to the atten tion of th e government in the hope that some of them would be add ressed in a real way and in a way that would prove to be fair for all the people concerned.

I raised, for example, with the Min ister of Education the situation for the Shilo school children and, perhaps privately, perhaps by letter, the Minister can be in touch with me on what progress he has made in his discussions with the Federal Department of National Defence so that the Province of Manitoba can pay its fair share for the education of those children in Shilo so that they don't have to be bused on a regular basis to the City of Brandon for their educa tion.

I belie ve the Mi nis ter took tha t matter under advisement, told me that it was a matter of concern to him and that he would be working on the matter. I hope he has indeed been doing that and I hope very soon that he can report that he has done the best that he could to convince the Department of National Defence, the federal bureaucracy, that perhaps those children would be better served being educated in their own community and that this province is prepared to pay its fair share, not a year from now, not two years from now, but now, so that those children do not have to be displaced.

I raised with the Minis ter of Education the matter of school funding in this province, I and the Honourable Member for Roblin- Russell. The Min ister has to his credit taken that matter seriously. He has had meetings with various school trustees in the province. I've seen a copy of his response to some of their concerns. I can't say tod ay, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that I've had an opportunity to review that response in detail; but the covering letter seems to indicate - and the Minister can correct me if I'm wrong - but seems to indicate that he's relatively satisfied but willing to continue to monitor and evaluate the support for education program on a regular basis and to see that any unfai rness which develops in the system is addressed and corrected. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I've been listening to a lot of Mini sters throughout this Session, especially during the Estimates process, tell me that this concern or that concern that we on this side have raised is being monitored and that those concerns are continually being evaluated. Well, the people of Manitoba want to see things done; they don't want to hear that things are being evaluated until the cows come home and that things are being monitored. If there's a problem, let's identify the problem, let's do something about it. Let's not use this as a - how shall I put it - as a buzz word.

It's a word I've used before and been pun ished for it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but let's not use "monitoring" and "evaluating" as a way to escape our responsibilities to the taxpa yers of this province. I raised with the Min ister at th e time of the announcement of Brandon University's funding for this year, I raised with the Mini ster the matter and told him and I was backed up by the president of the university

Wednesday, 3 September, 1986 and also, I believe, by the board of governors, although they don't speak quite so loudly on matters when it would come to a criticism of this government, the board of governors doesn't speak so loudly. But I believe even members of the board of governors would agree with me that Brandon University is getting the short end of the stick when it comes to funding this year.

The Minister will no doubt disagree with me, but tell that to the President of the Brandon University, is what I would say to the Min ister, and the students at the university who are facing increases in their tuition fees. You see, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I don't really have a problem with raising tuition fees and perhaps cutting back on budgets, if that is what is called for and if there's a good reason for it, I don't have a problem with that.

But when some five months ago honourable members opposite went around this province, Brandon included, telling people that they need not fear, a vote for the New Democratic Party is a vote for the enhancement and the preservation of the programs and the institutions that we have in this province and that they should trust New Democrats to protect those institutions and those programs in this province.

The thing that really bothers me is that within a few months later, within a few months of saying those words, we hear from presidents of universities that the funding is inadequate for programs that we have; when we hear from hospitals that the funding is inadequate and then the next thing is we have an announ cement that 31 beds in my community, in the riding of the Honourable Minister who represents Brandon East, that there are 31 beds being cut there; and then when we hear a few days later that four people had to spend a whole night sleeping in a corridor; these things concern me because what we have is hypocrisy.

What we have is broken promises and broken promises to people in Brandon is very serious business. The Mini ster who represents Brandon East nods, he understands, he knows that this is serious business in our community. You don't fool around with an institution like Brandon General Hospital in the way we have seen in recent weeks, not with impun ity, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Honourable Member for Brandon East is going to have to do some explaining and there are some explanations.

No one's denying that there are good explanations for some of the things that have to be done, but what brought them on is where the real explanation is, the bottom line. Why did it happen? Why was it allowed to develop? For the last four or five years, while the Honourable Member for Brandon East has told Brandonites how well they were served by having him for a Mini ster and him for a member and how he's done so much for Brandon East, that was fine; that was all on borrowed money.

The Member for Brandon East has to recognize that and admit that, and he's going to have to tell the people of Brandon East and Brandon generally that the services we'v e been enjoying are because successive Min isters' of Finance have been willing to go along with the Member for Brandon East and borrow money. I think it's bad advice. I think you should try to raise the money before you spend it. That's the way I was brought up. Maybe that's just a little too old fashioned for honourable members opposite, but I think there are a number of them on that side who were brought up that way too.

Don't spend more money than you earn. Abraham Lincoln once said, "You can never stay out of trouble by spending more money than you earn." Honourable members opposite would do well to heed that advice. It's very old; I've been accused of pulling out advice given by 19th Century politicians before. Well, I' ll stand by that advice; I think it's good advice in the 1980's. I think it's good advice to lead us into the 21s t Century .

The Honour able Mi nis ter who represents Brandon East would do well to remember that when he's facing the people there in the coming months and years, but he is going to have to explain how it came to be that that very difficult decision had to be taken at Brandon General Hospital, why 31 beds had to be closed.

Now, surely the Mi nister representing Brandon East will do as the Minister of Health has done and throw it back in the faces of those people who operate the Brandon General Hospital and say, clean up your act - as the Minister of Health has done - which is quite an insult considering the people who do operate our fine hospital facility in Brandon. The Mi nister for Brandon East will have to explain his colleague's com ment too. He is the Mini ster representing Brandon East. He's going to have to answer those tough questions.

Maybe he got away with that before, maybe he got away with having to make these detailed explanations. But, Mr. Deputy Speaker, there is a member who also represents Brandon and he does not sit on the benches with

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-1-80
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 1st hansardpdf 80.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	19da137f0318b5bbf8eb1892a6355417c6d992c1

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).