ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 9A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 14 DECEMBER, 1982. Printed by the Office of the Quee ns Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R: (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKI W, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springf ield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West El lice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kild onan Arth ur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupe rtsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Ru ssell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Daup hin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnks ter Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP IND NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 14 December, 19 82 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER, Ho n. J. Walding: Presenting Peti­ tio ns Re ading and Re ceivi ng Petitio ns ... Pr esenting Repor ts by Standing and Sp ecial Committees .. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Mini ster of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I' d like to make a statement concerning the accident at the CPR mar­ shalling yards last night. I have copies for the house. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

As I'm sure most members of this House are now well aware, at just after 6:00 p.m. last night a massive explosion rocked the north end of our city when a propane tanker car exploded after being struck by six runaway locomotives in the CPR marshaling yards between the Arlington Street bridge and the McP hillips underpass. The force of the explosion was heard as far away as Charleswood and St. Vital, and the resulting fireball was seen from miles around the city.

I' m sure that my colleagues of this House and others have been actively following the reports of this inci­ dent and are aware of the fact that there were, thank­ fully, no serious inju ries associated with the collision of the locomotives and the propane tank er. I have been informed by my staff that a limited evacuation was carried out following this explosion and this eva­ cuation involved appr oximately 150 people who were at a local bingo hall which is in close proximity to the marshalli ng yards.

I want to inform the House that officials of the Environmental Ma nagement Division and the Work­ place Safety and Health Division of my department responded to the incident immediately on being noti­ fied and we had staff on the scene by 6:35 p.m. The Man itoba Emergency Measures Organi zation was also contacted about the accident and were kept fully informed by my department. Our staff remained upon the scene until appr oximately 5:30 a.m. this morning when railway crews had completed the task of remov­ ing the remaining empty propane tanker cars away from the scene of the accident.

Many serious questions remain unanswered about last night's incident. For example, how did six massive diesel locom otives come to be runaways in the tight confines of a marshalling yard? As I mentioned ear­ lier, thankf ully there were no serious inju ries involved, but I think we all have to ask ourselves, will we be so lucky the next time around?

I will refrain from drawing any would-be scenario as to what could have occurred last night but I am sure most members of this House, indeed all members of this House, would agree that our city came far too close last night to a major catastrophe. ! would like to inform the House that I have for­ warded a telegram this afternoon off to the Federal Minister ofTransport, the Honourable Jean-Luc Pepin, requesting that a full public inqu iry be held as soon as possible by the Canadian Transport Commission.

I have consulted with my Cabinet colleagues, and in particular the Mini ster of Ur ban Affairs, and we are requesting that the CTC conduct an immediate public inqu iry into the causes of and the circumstances con­ nected with last night's accident and also that the terms of reference for the inqu iry specifically include an examination of all aspects of the operation of the CPR marshalling yards and mainline rail traffic through the City of Winnipeg, which are deemed likely to cause accidents and present a threat to life or prop­ erty in proximity to the railway; and recommendations with request to measures which may be taken to pre­ vent or reduce the adverse effects of such accidents, includin g, but not limited to the relocation of the yards and possibly the mainline from the centre of the City of Winnipeg.

Our Government has been on record as supporting rail relocation and last night's accident serves to high­ lig ht the fact that this must occur for the public's safety. My colleague, the Minister of Ur ban Affairs, has reiterated to the City of Winnipeg our position respecting rail relocation. Mr . Speaker, without atte mpting to infringe upon my colleague's responsibilities, I would like to read verbatim a part of his Octo ber 27, 1982 letter to Ma yor Norrie, regarding Plan Winnipeg. Recommendation Thirteen in the letter reads as follows: "The province recommends that a

section be inserted in

Section 48(1) - Maintenance of Existing Streets -Streets and Transpor tation - in the By-law 2960/81, stating that the city, in cooperation with the Province of Man itoba, the Government of Canada and the CPR shall endeavour to negotiate the relocation of the CPR marshalling yards and possibly the mainline in order ·to minimize the cost of associated grade separations, open up inner city land for redevelopment, and reduce the health and safety hazards associated with the yard operations." 211 Mr .

Speaker, I' d like to conclude by saying that last night's incident was the second such accident in the last two years and, as a Provincial Government, we are convinced that action must be undertaken imme­ diately with both the Federal Government and the City of Winnipeg to resolve the issues of potential hazards which may be associated with the handling of dan­ gerous or hazardous goods at the CPR marshalling yards. With my statement which is being distributed, Mr .

Speaker, I have included copies of a telegram which has gone off to the Honourable Jean Luc Pepin respecting this accident and requesting for that spe­ cific inq uiry. I am informed that staff have had discus­ sions with the City of Winnipeg staff, or are in the process of those discussions at the present time to inform them of our request; and I have a call in to

Tuesday, 14 December, 19 82 Mayor Norrie and will be informing him of this specific request as soon as he returns that call. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member forTu xedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We on this side of the House are pleased to receive this imme­ diate report from the Mini ster on the unfortunate inci­ dent. Obviously there is a great deal of concern that has been expressed both in media coverage and reports during the past number of hours since the incident occurred yesterday.

We are happy, as the Minister has indicated, that there was no serious injury or health hazard that occurred as a result of that accident or that incident yesterday. We would hope that the very thorough investigation he has called for. when it is carried through, will look into the circumstances surrounding the incident because I understand that sabotage has not been ruled out, or a deliberate attempt to create this inci­ dent has not been ruled out by the powers that be and, obviously, that's a matter that we're all concerned for and we hope will be looked into very thoroughly. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister has indicated a variety of different things in his annou ncement and his review of this matter, but one of the things he hasn't indicated I believe that should be said is, of course, the question that is brought up about the wisdom of this Govern­ ment requesting a larger residential component in the Logan Avenue area of the Core Area Plan. The fact that now more people are going to potentially be put in, or be kept in, close proximi ty to a situation where an industrial accident or an incident of this nature that poses risks and hazards to the people living in the area would occur.

So, obviously we hope that the Govern­ ment, who has seen fit to back that particular position in the Core Area Agreement, will look into that matter. As well, Mr . Speaker, in taking a position on behalf of rail relocation or in favour of rail relocation,

(1) I might indicate that it certainly has not been disagreed with on this side, or in fact by many people on city council. that the Government ought to also be pre­ pared to take a position in favour of a new locatio n. One of the gr eatest weakne sses we had with the former NOP Administration in the past was when the topic of rail relocation came forward and a decision was require. They were not, for some unkno wn rea­ son, prepared to back a particular area as being the new site for the mainline and the marshalling yards, because it involved seats that were held politically by that particular party.

So, obviously, if they're going to just simply take the position with the Federal Govern­ ment. yes. we fa vour rail relocation - that's a little like motherhood and apple pie. Un less they'r e prepared, Mr. Speaker, to say where they will back the relocation to exist, then I don' t think that their commitment to rail relocation is a very strong one or one that's worthy of too much support by anyone in this province. Mr.

Sp eaker. we believe there is obviously a need to perhaps beef up security to ensure that something of this nature that may have happene d as a result of deliberate attempts, or deliberate action on the part of somebody, should not be able to happen again in future. We hope that when the Minister and his Government are considering all these matters they will, of course, also consider the costs and who is 212 going to be paying for all of the various things that should be done.

We're obviously dealing with ideal situations here and I would hope that the Mini ster, in looking for the ideal solution to this matter, is pre­ pared to take a stand on the payment for the reloca­ tion and the relocation area itself so that we have a meaningful commitment instead of just words. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-G eneral. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I beg leave to file the Fifty- ninth Ann ual Report of the Ma nitoba Liquor Control Commission for the Fiscal Year April 1, 1981 to March 31, 1982. Copies will be distributed to members of the House.

RETURN TO ORDER NOS. 2, 3, 4 and 5 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Atto rney­ General. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I beg leave to file the Retur n to Orders of the House, Nos. 2, 3, 4 and 5, dated April 5, 1982; all of them, I believe, requested by the Honourable Member for St Norbert. I'm filing with the Clerk a single copy; the remainder takes three large boxes and several hundred hours of person years to file routine information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to table the Ann ual Report of the Ma nitoba Lotteries and Games Contr ol Commission for the year 1981 and 1982. I apologize, I don't have enough copies at this time but I' ll bring enough copies for all the mem bers tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion of Bills . . In troduction INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Question period, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 40 students of Grade 11 standing from the Tech Voc High School under the direction of Mr. John Durham.

The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Natu­ ral Resources. There are 50 students of Grade 11 standing from the W.C . Miller Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Henry Schellenberg and Mr. Al Schmidt. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rhineland. There are 39 senior citizens from Bal dur present under the direction of Mrs. Doris Stone. The visitors are from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. There are 20 students of Grade 11 standing from the Menno nite Collegiate In stitute under the direction of Mr . Peter Voth.

They are from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rhineland. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Tuesday, 14 December, 19 82 ORAL QUESTIONS McKenzie Seeds - wage settlement MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Oppo sition. HON. S. LYON: I have a question for the Minister responsible for McKenzie Seeds but I can direct it, Mr. Speaker, to the First Min ister in the absence of the proper Min ister. Can the First Min ister confirm that McKenzie Seeds, a Crown corporation, has nego­ tiated a settle ment with its workers for a two-year agreement calling for a 13 percent wage increase in the first year and a 10 to 12 percent wage increase in the second year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON.

H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker. I' ll have to take that question as notice. I' ve only heard the news reports. HON. S. LYON: Well, I'm wondering, Mr. Sp eaker, if the Min ister of Economic Develo pment could perhaps indicate to the House whether the news - the widely­ carried news report to that effect yesterday - is, in fact, true. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker , I also would like to take that question as notice, but I do draw the atten­ tion of the Leader opposite that when we're dealing with wage negotiations we are always willing to look at the historical pattern of wages, how they compare with other people doing similar work and that we don't believe there is any simple formula to apply when you're engaging in good-faith collective bargaining. Letter re wage ceiling HONS. S. LYON: Well, Mr .

Speaker, a question to the First Min ister. ls it a fact that the First Mi nister has sent a letter to municip alities, to universities, to hospitals suggesting that there be a ceiling of 9 percent on wage settle ments and if that is the case, has he not also sent a similar letter to Crown corporations, including pre­ sumably McK enzie Seeds, asking that settle ments for salaries for all Crown corporations fall within those that are being recommended for hospitals, universi­ ties and for municipalities? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, the letter was for­ warded to all agencies and commissions of govern­ ment, and that would include Mc Kenzie Seeds. It 's my understanding that the agreement is retroactive to the middle of this year. Again, I cannot comment in respect to the specifics of the agreement until I' ve had access to much more information pertai ning to the settlement. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr .

Speaker, gi ven the fact that Man itoba today has the unenviable record of having 54,000 people unemployed; of having a mounting record of bankr uptcies which appears on a propor­ tionate basis to exceed that in many other parts of Canada in all categories; given the fact that there are wage freezes and layoffs tak ing place in the private sector where this kin d of beneficence app arently can't be afforded or take place, can the First Min ister advise what leadership he is prepared to give to Crown cor­ porations and others, such as the municipalitie s in southern Man itoba who are trying to gi ve leader ship with respect to hold ing the line, so tha t taxpayers of this province, already overburdened with his 1.5 per­ cent pay roll tax and other surcharges, will not have to bear further imposts as a result of lack of guidance and leadership from this stumbling Government?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, as I indicated earlier, we'll be examining this specific case that the Leader of the Opposition is making reference to. After exam ina­ tion of same we'll be reporting back to this Chamb er. Wage controls - Municipalities MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tur tle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Muni cipal Affa irs.

In recent days munici­ palities have been meeting at various locat ions across the province and are coming to unanimous agreement that they must undertake action to control wage set­ tlements both directly under their own ju risdiction and also to urge school boards to control costs, salary costs, down to 6 percent. They have been making ap peals to the Government for some support. Does the Mini ster of Mu nicipal Affairs support the position being put forward by the municipalities? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Muni ci­ pal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I think the member is asking a question with regard to some local govern­ ments indicating to school boards how much money will be passed on, I think that's the question. If that is · the intent of the question I would say, in response, that the Province of Man itoba, the Government, must live within the bounds of its authority and its jurisdiction and I would hope and expect that local governments would also live within the bounds of their legislative responsibility as well. 213 MR. A. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, the municipalities are subject to control their own wage settle ments mora or less in accordance with the federal guideli nes. They are also urging such settle ments upon those institu­ tions with which they are most closely involved, the school divisions and the hospitals. Does the Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs support the municipalities in their efforts to see that wage settl ements in those areas are held to 6 percent? HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the mun­ cipalities are mature enough to decide for themselves how they wish to appr oach and develop their budgets and I'm sure that the honourable member opposite

Tuesday, 14 December, 19 82 will agree to that. They are a municipal ity and they are responsible for the establ ishing of their own budgets and if they feel that that is the way they wish to appr oach their financial problems, I say that they are mature enough to make that decision. MR. A. RANSOM: It can be confirmed from the answer given by the Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs then that he does not support these positions being put forward by the municipal ities? MR. SPEAKER: Or der ple ase. The Honourable Mini s­ ter of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr .

Speaker, the Member for Turtle Mountain asked a question several days ago with respect to the amount - I was going to answer a question that he had asked, I had taken the question as notice. I thought I had the floor . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Moun tain on a point of order. MR. A. RANSOM: We can confirm then the Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs doesn't wish to answer the question. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: The Member for Turtle Moun­ tain asked a question with respect to the amount of refunding of -(Interject ion)- if the Member for Fort Garry could restrain himself The Member for Turtle Mountain asked a question several days ago with respect to the amount of refunding MR. SPEAKER: Or der please, order please. I am try­ ing to hear the answer of the Honourable Min ister of Finance. If other members wish to engage in debate they may do so outside of the Cha mber. The Honourable Min ister of Finance. Refinancing requirement of Government HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr .

Speaker, I'm well aware that the Leader of the Opp osition doesn't particularly lik e answers to questions but I'm going to give it nevertheless. The question was asked: how much refunding will be required on provincial debt in the year 1983-84? Although I did not have the answer that day the Member for Turtle Moun ta in, later in a speech, indicated that it was his recolle ction that it was $1 billion.

I can advise him that in fact it will be $341.4 million, which is the amount that matures and that is based on the Canadian dollar equivalent of the foreign debt calcula ted at the foreign exchange rate in effect at the time of issue. After appl ication of accumulated sinkin g funds the province will be required to refund $302 million of that debt. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member forTuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, my ques­ tion is to the Honourable Mini ster of Education.

Will the Min ister suppor t the school division s in the province who are attempting to keep their spend­ ing increases to 6 percent this year in keep ing with the Federal Gove rn ment's volu ntar y wage 214 restraint guidelines? Wage controls - school divisions MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Min ister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, the members on this side of the House support the efforts that are being made by municipal ities and school boards and Government, to keep exp enditures down.

We also recognize that it is the school boards that have both the right and the responsibility to control and dictate the degree of exp enditure and to negotiate agree­ ments for their staff. We expect that they are going to do that in the same responsible manner that they've always done it; we expect that they are the best people to do that job. We do not intend to interfere but we intend to give them as much suppor t for the efforts they are making to control exp enditures and recog­ nize tha t we all have less money to do the jobs that we have to do and they are going to do the best they can. MR. G.

FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Mini ster could then indicate if those settlements happen to run over the 9 percent guideli nes that the Premier has indicated, such as the McKenzie Seeds' settlement did, what would her position be on that. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Speaker, my position on that is to suggest that any indicat ion from this Government about the limits or the amounts of money that can be given through free bargaining process that involv es two groups of people would be (1) interfer­ ing, and (2) would set the stage for provincial bargain­ ing, Mr. Speaker.

The school divisions and the school boards are not asking for provincial barg aining; they are not asking us to take away their rights and respon­ sibilities to negotiate conditions of work and salary settlements with their teachers and other emplo yees and we do not intend to do that. If both sides wish to go to provincial bargaining and want to request that, I suppose we would consider it. In the meantime, I suggest that the way that we have of dealing with teacher settlements at school division levels between teachers and trustees is the best. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: There was reference made just now by the Member forTuxedo which, I believe, was a repetition of an earl ier remark that guidelines had been sent out by the Premier proposing a 9 percent wage guideline. What the Premier, the Government, has indicated is that each wage negotiation should be based upon the levels of income received. We are opposed to across-the-board guidelines that will state that regardless of income, whether it's $50, 000 or $60,000 a year, you'r e entitle d to 9 percent; on the other hand, if you are receiving $10,000 or $15.000 a year you, too, are entitled to only 9 percent. Mr.

Speaker. we have proposed, and the letter indi­ cated, favouring graduated scale wage increases so that those at the lowest income levels have the largest percentage increase to help them cope with con­ tinu ed inflation. So I simply leave it with yo;; Mr .

14 December, 19 82 Speaker. that any such statement as has been made indeed by the Me mber for Tuxedo, and earl ier by the Leader of the Opposition, are a misrepresentat ion of the Government's position as expr essed in the letter which was forwarded to municipal ities. agencies and commissions in August. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable MemberforTuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Than k you, Mr . Speaker. It is helpful for us on this side to know now that the First Min ister is disclaiming any guidelines and that even 9 percent is not any commitment on behalf of this Government.

So my final question to the Min ister of Education is, in view of the fact that she has indicated that the Government is prepared to support whatever wage settlements are arrived at by the free collective bar­ gaining process, can the school divisions now assume that they' ll get whatever funds they require from her in order to meet those commitments? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Speake r. school divisions have always been in the position of knowing that they can make decisions on how much money they will spend in their division.

Only the school division con­ trols expenditu res in a division: this Government doesn't and I don't. They also are entitled to know what they are going to get from Government; in other words, how much money they are entitle d to, and under what circumstances and for what this money is going to come. So they can make their decisions on the money they are going to get, the programs and the services they believe they should be providing, and try to make their judgem ents in each case about what level of pro­ grams, services and degree of budget they are going to bring in.

I forgot what the question was -(lnterjec tion)- the first part of it. I kn ow the first part of it was okay. I have a second point to make and if you remind me what it is, I'll make it. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. Perhaps the honoura­ ble member would like to repeat his question? HON. M. HEMPHILL: School boards have been given the very critical information that they need at this time to make their budget and their staffing decisions.

We have confirmed to them that we are maintaining the Educational Support Program intact; that we will be bringing in a compensa tory grant that will offset the impact of the 1.5 levy. What we can say is, I believe school boards are being given adequ ate suppor t and financial resources from the province to al low them to maintain good qual ity services and programs that will not affect the children in the schools. They have that information. We have never at any time, this Government or any other government, agreed to pay or to give any unlim­ ited amount of money that they should decide to spend. nor will we.

Unemployment increase MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MP.. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr . Sp eaker. I have a question for the Min ister of Labour. The recent unem­ ployment statistics for November, 1982 indicated an increase of some 24,000 over November of 1981, for a total number of unemp loyed persons in Man itoba of 52,000. My que stion, Mr. Speaker, to the Min ister of Labour is this, could she inform this House of the real number of unemp loyed persons in Man itoba, people who are not accounted for in those statistics? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr .

Speaker, I am not qu ite clear on the question. I would suspect that if you're asking about those who slip through the cracks as it were, who are not counted on the roles of the unemp loyed, I could take that question as notice and get you an answer for tomorrow. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Sp eaker, I thank the Min ister for that answer, and I would appr eciate it if she would then ind icate tomorrow the actual number of persons unemplo yed in Man itoba, which would include those people who are not accounted for in the statistics we received a week or so ago. I think that would include, Mr.

Speaker, people on social assistance; persons living on In dian reservations; people who have simply given up look ing for a job. That may be difficult but I would appr eciate her making that effort and taking the question as notice. Wage controls - public sector MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr . Sp eaker, my question is fort he Min ister of Finance. Flowing from the answers given by the First Min ister and others this morning, it is evident that the Government is not showing any lead- - ership with respect to publi c sector wage control.

The First Min ister has admitted he has no guidelines what­ soever, and that they have not shown general support for the thrust put forward by the Federal Government ­ ! believe this places Manit oba in a position of being the only senior Government in Canada which is not in general support with the thrust taken by the Federal Government. In view of that, Mr. Speaker, can the Mi nister of Finance advise us what position he will be putti ng forward this week when the Min isters of Finance meet in Ottawa? 215 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Sp eaker, we start out in that question with an inappr opriate premise, and from that premise we arrive at an inappr opriate conclusion. The premise was that there were no guidelines here, and that is patently false. The Premier indicated pre­ viously that there is a guideline and you have referred to the letter of the Premier - I have a copy of it here. It

Tuesday, 14 December, 19 82 indicates it is important that the publi c sector share this burden in a fair and responsible manner - I need not tel l you what that burden is. To help achieve this goal the Manit oba Government has increased salaries of senior management staff by 8 percent; Cabinet Min isters are receivimembers of the House; but as the Leader of the Op position knows there is an additional $20,600 of indemnity that Cabinet Mi nisters receive and we received no increase on that portion.

So on our total income, there was an appr oxima te 6 percent increase public sector share this burden in a fair and responsible manne r - I need not tell you what that burden is. To help achieve this goal the Manit oba Government has increased salaries of senior man­ agement staff by 8 percent; Cabinet Min isters are receiviin remuneration. The recently signed MG EA collective agreement provides a graduated scale of wage increases so that those at the lowest income levels have the largest percentage increase to help them cope with con­ tinu ed inflation and the loss of one job in many two­ job families.

He goes on and cont inues to suggest that the other organiza tions in the public sector can show similar restraint. I remind the Leader of the Opposition that it was his government, just before the last election, provided an increase of 13 or 14 percent to the MPIC workers; 15 percent to the doctors; and that followed a 10 percent increase to the doctors the year before, and so here he is trying to make it sound as though we have somehow allowed this ship to flounder when it is that former government that set the public sector pattern for the year 1982. Refinancing requirement of Government Now, Mr.

Speaker, while I' m on my feet, I' d like to answer another question that the Member for Turtle Mo untain asked last week. That had to do with respect to when we would seek additional borrowing author­ ity, that is, the amount needed to finan ce whatever our estimated deficit amounts to. At this point it would look lik e the additional amount needed would be approx imately 150 million. The honourable member may recall that for the last number of years general purpose borrowing authority has been included each year in the main Appropria tion Act.

This authority provides for the estimated deficit for the year, Sinking Fund requirements and an adjustment, if required, for any shortfall or overprovision relating to the year prior. In the 1982-83 Appropriation Act, the House had appr oved an amount of 450 milli on. We would, there­ fore, plan on including in the '83-84 main App ropria­ tion Act the antici pated req uirements for '83-84 plus an adjustment for '82-83 as required.

Handlin g the general purpose operating requirements in this way seems to have worked reasonably well in the past and allo ws us to make up whatever difference there is in the subsequent year. The honourable member will probably recall, how­ ever, that The Financial Admin istration Act provides the Min ister of Finance, with appr oval of the Lieutenant -Governor -in -Cou ncil, the authority to borrow money under Sect ion 54(a) .

The Lieutenant­ Governor-in -Cou ncil may authorize the Mi nister from time to time to borrow money where it appe ars to the 216 Minister that the Consoli dated Fund is insufficient to meet the disbursements lawfully authorized to be made from it. In other words, more specifically, if it becomes necessary the Min ister may borrow to cover any shortfall arising in the Consolidated Fund. As well, the Min ister may borrow on a short-term basis under

Section 53 to provide funds on a temporary basis rather than directly from the long-term market. This use of temporary or short-term financing allo ws Finance the flexibili ty to stay out of what might be difficult long-term markets and stay short, if that is a pract ical solution. Court action re metrification MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Min ister of Consumer and Corpo­ rate Affairs.

Will the Min ister make immediate repres­ entat ion to his federal counterpart to cease and desist in his threats to take to court law- abiding Man itobans and other citizens whose only crime has been a pref­ erence to use the Im perial system of measurement of pounds and gallon s, and acres and not the rather alien metric system which has been forced upon the Cana­ dian people by the Trudeau Government against their will? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Consu­ mer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Than k you, Mr. Spea ker.

I don' t think it would be proper for the Provincial Government to get involved and to tell a Federal Mi n­ ister how he is to go about administering the law of the country. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Speake r. I real ize the problem the Mi nister of Consumer and Corp orate Affairs has because, when we debated the metric reso­ lution last Session, he supported the conversion to metrification, but surely the Min ister cannot support the harassment by the Federal Government of mer­ chants in this province who wish to offer Manit obans freedom of choice between the Imp erial system and the metric system.

Surely he cannot allo w the Federal Government to persecute and harass Manit obans. Who will protect Man itobans if the Min ister of Con­ sumer and Corporate Affairs will not? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-G eneral. HON. R. PENNER: For the information of the Member for Pembina and the members opp osite who may not kn ow, federal prosecutions are carried out through the local office of the Department of Justice and by federal prosecutors; they are not carried out by the office of the Attorney-G enera l.

Therefore, we have no control whatsoever over the laying of charges or the processing of charges; that becomes entirely a matter for federal prosecution and for the courts. If charges are laid, as I said the other day with respect to a matter

Tuesday, 14 December, 19 82 which was within my competence, then the law will take its course. If the member opposite is suggesting, the member who asked the question, that this Government, even though it has no jurisdiction and no right to do so, should say that the law should not take its course, then the member should make that statement unequi­ vocally, but that is not a responsible attitude; it is not an att itude which we are prepared to take. We did not launch any such prosecutions, nor do we have the right to stay them. MR. SPEAKER: Or der ple ase. The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Mi nister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. In spite of the statement by the Attorney-Ge neral, Mr. Speaker, the Federal Min ister of Consumer and Cor­ porate Affairs last night annou nced a change in policy of his department, and he announc ed that they were not going to defer or delay prosecutions any further, and as a result of his pol icy statement last night they're apparently going to prosecute across the country.

The question that the Member for Pembina was ask ing the Mi nister of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs: is he willing to make representat ions on behalf of Man itobans to his federal counterpar t to defer these types of prosecutions? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General on a point of order HON. R. PENNER: On a point of order. I'm reading from the extract from Beauchesne's Parliamentary Ru les and Forms, Fourth Edition, Cit ation 171 - and I'm not doing what the Leader of the Op position did the other night and . that is, cite the name of the text without giving the actual Citation.

"A question may not seek information about the internal affairs of for­ eign countries or the domin ions, or ask the govern­ ment's opin ions on matters of pol icy, or ask with respect to a matter for which he is not responsible to Parliament, " or in this case the Legislature "or matters not within his official knowledge." On several grounds the question is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxe do. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order. It 's clear that any Mi nister in this Government has the right and the responsibil ity to contact his federal counterpart.

We have an example distributed to us right on the desk today of a telegram from the Provincial Min ister to the Federal Min ister of Trans­ port asking for certain action to take place. That's all that's being asked and it's not out of order. Press conference - Bill No. 3 MB. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arth ur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Speaker, I have a question to the Min ister of Agriculture. Can the Mini ster of Agri­ culture confirm that he has called a press conference for 3 o'clock today to explain Bill No. 3, The Farmland Owner ship Bill ? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. S.

URUSKI: Mr . Speaker, yes I have. I have distributed the bill to the honourable members, plus a copy of the press release that will be issued at the time that I will be exp lainin g the bill. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Sp eaker, will the Mini ster not respect the privi lege of the House, as has been tradi­ tional in this House, and prior to the release and the explanation of the bill to the media have the courtesy to have it distributed today and 48 hours later come in with a full explanation so that all members of this House kn ow exactly what is in this bill, Mr .

Sp eaker, will he not show that courtesy to this House? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, my intention is to explain the full detail s to the House in terms of the press release. -(I nterjection)- Mr. Speaker, the honourable members have been given a copy of the bill. They kno w full well their stand on the bill in terms of their positions that they took last session. Mr . Speaker, they have been given a copy of the press release. -(Interjec tion)- Obviousl y the Leader of the Op position, Mr . Speaker, doesn't want to hear my answer. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr .

Speaker, a further question to the Min ister of Agriculture. Can we expect the Mini s­ ter of Agricultur e to continue to disrespect the legisla­ tive system in this province, the House and the privi­ leges that this Chamber has had in the last 100 and some years? Is the Mi nister of Agricultur e now not going to respect what has made this country and this province the great province that it's been? Is he going to abrogate that responsibility? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Speaker, I certainly have been in this House a fair deal of time and have full respect · for .the tradition of the House.

The honourable members obviously don't like the method that I have used in terms of providing them with as much informa­ tion as I will be distributing to the public of Man itoba. If they don' t want me to provide that information to them as I have done; I have had public meetings, Mr . Speaker - the Member for Arthur even attended some of those public meetings on this bill, we have spoke n about it. I have table d the bill and I intend to proceed with Second Re ading when it is calle d in 48 hours, Mr . Speaker 217 Red River Community College MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R.

BANMAN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Education and would ask her, in light of the fact that students at Red River Commu nity Col lege, who have to complete certain

14 December, 19 82 projects during the Christmas holidays, have been told that they will not be able to use the facilities at the Red River Community Colle ge. in other words, they will be closed to students who wish to complete spe­ cific projects that they have undertaken, I wonder if the Min ister could inform the House whether or not there couldn' t be some accommodation made so that these students, I believe some 60 in number. could have those particular facilities made available to them during that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nis ter of Education. A MEMBER: I hope you remember the question. HON.

M. HEMPHILL: I think I'll remember the ques­ tion, Mr . Speaker. Mr . Speaker, I'm pleased to be able to say that there can be some accommodation made for the students. I wish to indicate to the member opposite that the decision was made about three weeks ago to close down Re d River Commu nity Col ­ lege so that we could save $57,000.00. We found when we looked at what had happene d in the past, Mr.

Sp eaker. that almost nobody was there and nothing was happening, but we were maintai ning this huge building with all of the energy, all of the heating, security and jan itorial services for no reason and that it was costing a lot of money. We're doing this on a trial basis. We did not realize at the time the decision was made that this would cause some prob­ lems for the students; that there were some students, I think particularly in the drafting area, where they need access to drafting materials and facilities. They have a project to do and they want to work on it over the holidays.

We are in the process of arranging accommodation for those students. The deadline for the project has been extended and we are going to try and make an area in the college available for them so that they can continue their project, while we still make every effort to save as much money as we can. Press conference -Bill No. 3 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opp osition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the First Min ister based upon the rather startling response that we've had today from the Mi nister of Agricultur e with respect to his intentions , appar ently to hold a press conference on a bill which has just been distributed to the House and which has not as yet been given Second Reading. Will the First Mini ster confirm that this fundamental breach of the privileges of the House will be permitted by him and by his Government before the bill has had Second Read ing and the bill explai ned to this House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opp osition's question presumes that there's a funda­ mental breach. I can recal l, Mr. Speaker. very well. I'm sure you can recall and I'm sure if honourable members 218 across the way would like to acknowledge that they could very well recall, but I will remind them that in years gone by when bills have been distributed in this House members have responded to questions from members of the media about the contents of those speeches and they have responded, whether it's in the corridor or whether it's by way of -(l nterject ion)­ Mr.

Speaker, I would think the decorum of this House, when a question is asked, ought to be to give that person an opportun ity to respond. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speake r, I also would like to record that the Leader of the Opp osition has twice referred to members on this side as being common criminals this afternoon. If the Leader of the Opp osi­ tion would lik e to leave this Chamber and repeat those comments outside this Chamber we'll see what would happen in respect to such comments bei ng leveled. -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable First Min ister.

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, I don't understand how that kind of talk contributes to the well-b eing of Manit obans. I don't understand how it would, nor do Manit obans understand how such comments could contribute to the public good in the Province of Man itoba. Mr. Sp eaker. it is not -(Int erjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable the First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, as I had indicated, it is not unusual for members of the Treasury Bench. of this Government or of previous governments. to respond to questions pertaining to legislation.

I understand this bill has already been distributed in the House. members already have access to that bill and there's also now a press release that's been dis­ tri buted. This, Mr. Sp eaker, has been a trad ition for a number of years, as long as I have been here. that members have responded to questions from the media. in order to assist the media. after the distribu­ tion of the bill in the House. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, given the fact that there is obviously a clear misunderstanding of the First Min ister with respect to the rules of parliament on who should be advised first about the contents of a bill, may I ask him merely to give, by way of supp ort and precedent, any exam ples that he can find over the last 15 years of bills being fully explai ned to the press before they've received Second Read ing in the House. There may be the odd exception. The rule has been, Sir , that the bills are explai ned first in the House.

The except ions, in my experience when they have arisen, have caused a point of privi­ lege to be raised in the House against the Mi nister who did it, whether he was Conservative, NOP or who­ mever. So I merely ask the First Minister not to erode and wash away a principle of parliament just because it happ ens to suit his pecul iar na rtisan interests

14 December, 19 82 this afternoon. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, it may be that the Leader of the Opp osition is not conscious of the fact that he's already received a copy of the bill. If he would refer to his bills that he's already received you'll find Bill No. 3, The Farmlands Ownersh ip Act. Certa inly I have it and I would assume that members across the way would also have that bill. In addition , Mr . Speaker, there has been a news service release that has been distribut ed to -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Well, Mr .

Speaker, I would prefer to smile than to scowl. Mr. Speaker, members will also discover that they have received a news service release and I don' t know if the Minister of Agriculture is in some form of breach then I acknowledge that I have been in breach because when I have, as Attorney­ General, as Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs, distributed bills in this House, frequently I have been called out of this House by members of the media in order to respond to questions pertaining to the bill which I have distributed. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please, order please. The time for questions having expir ed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Op po­ sition on a point of order. HON. S. LYON: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. is the First Min ister aware that he may well then be will ingly catering to an offence against the privi leges of this House by allowing a Minister to give press conferences on a bill which has not yet received Second Read ing, even though distributed? We can all see that it's been distributed. He can even ask the Mem ber for Kildonan, because if he is saying that he condones that then he is asking that a matter of privi­ lege be raised about this matter.

It 's within his power to stop this offence against the rules tak ing place. Will he do it? MR. SPEAK ER: Or der pl ease. The Honour able Member for Springfield to the same point of order. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr . Speaker, there's absolutely no question the Leader of the Op position is right, that matters of pol icy have to be announc ed in the House and that changes in pol icy are annou nced in the House. But the activity of the Mi nister in providing a copy of the bill and his press release to the House is in no way a breach of the privileges of the House; in fact, it's expected.

And then his willi ngness to reply to quest ions and inform the public about the detail of the bill without going into the Second Read ing material of the bill is a precedent that's been long establis hed in this Ho use and. Mr. Sp eaker, has been long estab­ lished in other parliame nts.

I refer the Leader of the Op position, who from his seat stands tall as an exper t in parl iamentary procedure, to Citati on 264 which says as follows - I'm reading from Beauchesne's Fifth Edition: · The option of a Min ister to make a statement either in the House or outside it may be the subject of comment but is not the subject of a question of privilege." So, Mr . Speaker, I submit the Leader of the Opp osi­ tion neither kn ows our Rul es or our practice nor knows what the question of privilege really is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opp osition. HON. S.

LYON: On the point of order that I raised here, let me make it clear that long before this House had any visitation from the Member for Springfield, those of us who were here knew that a Mi nister, under our Rules, could not do as this Min ister of Agricultur e purports to do this afternoon. I merely say, Mr. Speaker, to the Member for Spr ingfield, Beauchesne governs this House when no other rule appl ies here.

The custom and tr adition - and I know that custom and tradition mean very little to some of the left win­ gers over there - of this House, Sir, is that the bill gets Second Read ing before there's a press statement on it - period. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Energy and Mi nes to the same point. HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, on the point of order. The Member for Turtle Mountain is quoted as passing comment to the press on a bill that was distributed to the House yesterday. I assume that he did not wait for Second Reading before he made comment to the press with respect to a bill tha t was tabled.

He is quoted in the radio medium as passing comment on a bill that he presumably read, Mr . Sp eaker. If he has difficulty reading the bill as tabled by the Min ister of Agricult ure and if the Leader of the Opposition has difficulty reading - he might get sore lips from doing so - I would ask the Min ister of Agriculture to read the bill to him or read the press statement to him if he has difficulty reading. · HON. S. LYON: Mr .

Speaker, I draw to your atte ntion, Sir, even though it's apparent to everyone else in the House except the Member for Transcona who just spoke, that the position of a private member in this House is entir ely different from that of a Treasury Bench member who is sponsoring a bill . A Treasury Bench member sponsoring a bill, according to the customs and traditions of this Hous e, must explain that bill to the House first. We don' t need the House to be battered by the kind of guttersnipe tactics and debate that we customarily have come now to expe ct from the Member for Transcona.

He doesn't help this House at all, in fact, he doesn't help this province. He should be out of the Cabine t. 219 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General to the same point of order. HON. R. PENNER: To the same point of order. The Leader of the Op position has said that Beauche sne appl ies where there is no Rul e of this House. The

Tuesday, 14 December, 1982 Rules and Order s of this House are contained in the book which we all have. There is no rule or order of the kind suggested by him, therefore. Beauchesne app­ lies. It is time, Sir , that the Leader of the Op position recognize that his authoritarian pronouncements, as if they were some papal bull, have much more of the bull than of the papacy in them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: On the same point of order. Mr .

Speaker, I pointed out to the Honourable Government House Leader the other day that the Rul es of this Chamb er include the printed ones in the little blue book, plus the ruli ngs of Speakers going back over many years, and those are part and parcel of the Ru les of this Assembly, the customs and the trad itions. I would suggest to the honourable member that per­ haps he should read some of those rulings of Speak­ ers from the past which form part of the Rules of this Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Mi nis­ ter of Health to the same point. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr .

Speaker, I, also, have been here for a few years and I' ve seen and observed the conduct with this House. I think it's true that there's been a trad ition that information, when the House was sitting, should be made available to the House. I think this is clear and tha t is something, as was said, that mem bers on both sides - that is on the Government side, with different parties at different times - have not always respected. Mr. Speaker. what do we have here? The bill was tabled today with a copy of a statement that will be made later to the press.

That statement is available to all the members and that is the statement that we're ta lking about, the statement that will be made was given and the members of the House have all the information that will be given to the press. I think that's the important thing. The point, Sir, is that when the House is sitting the information. and especially if there is any change in polic ies, should be annou nced in the House and that is being done. The bill was tabled, as I said, with a copy of the statement that the Min ister said he would make at 3 o'clock. MR. SPEAKER: Or der ple ase.

If no one else wishes to speak to the point, it would seem that members have made their views kn own on the topic. May we proceed with the people's business? HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, with respect, that was the people's business, if you're not aware of it, Sir, we'll make you aware of it. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The Honourable Minis­ ter of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think the members of this House have been very patient. There is a deliberate atte mpt by the Leader of the Opp osition to make a mockery of the parliament that he professes to like so much and wants to defend.

I have never seen this in all the years - I' ve seen at times when there's 220 been a flareup - but constantly on every issue we are called names, we are called communists, criminals on every issue; you are threatened constantly and I say, Sir .. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. I'm trying to hear the Honourable Mi nister. A MEMBER: Well, what's he speaking on? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I'm speaking on the decorum of the House, or the lack of decorum in the House, on the same point of order, that we haven't had a minute's peace with the Leader of the Opposition who is - (Interject ion)- How can you speak on a point of order when I' m speaking on a point of order? -(I nter­ jection)- ! certainly did, I identified. I' m ta lking about the conduct of your leader. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I'm tal king about the conduct of the leader who has always said that he was ready to defend the parlia mentary system and he's doing his utmost to make sure that it doesn't work in this House and this has to stop, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Or der pl ease. The Hon ourable Member for Fort Garry to the same point. MR. L. SHERMAN: Well yes, Mr . Speaker, on a spe­ cific point of order. The Honourable Min ister of Health rose to speak to the decorum of the House.

On a point of order, Sir, I think we'd be quite prepared on this side to engage in a discussion about the decorum of this House and we would have some thi ngs to say about what we think lies at the root of some difficulties in decorum. But let him not have the whole arena and the whole platform to make his case with respect to deco­ rum and pin any difficulties in decorum on this side of the House. I assure you, Sir , we have our own theories and our own conclusions as to where the root of those difficulties in decorum lie. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr .

Sp eaker, if this is a sug­ gestion that maybe the two sides should get together and examine the conduct of all the members of this House, I certainly would welcome it because it's a disgrace the way things have been happ ening in this Session. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: Order please. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Rie l. -(I nterjection)­ Order pl ease. Order pl ease. The Honourable Member for Lakeside has 19 min­ utes remaining. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr .

Speaker, last even ing when I was making my comments on this Throne Speec h, I was at that point where I was -(I nterject ion)- lik ely to some. But I was at that point where I was looking for some sign, some action, some direction in this docu-

14 December, 1982 ment, this Throne Speech, that could make us some­ what optim istic about the recovery that is often tal ked about, that is just coming and that all thin gs will then, of course, be well again. Mr. Sp eaker, any meaningful action is not to be found in this Throne Speec h. Mr . Speaker. in speak ing about the word 'action', I recall that I omitted, in my opening remarks, to include in my congratulations, the Min ister of Labour. I want to assure her that I'm sorry about that oversight because, as a matter of fact. I had a little issue to raise with the Minister of Labour.

I was hoping that perhaps being situated where she is in the House, as deskmate to the Min ister of Eco­ nomic Developme nt, that surely she would be aware of and join in the joy that all Man itobans have in the fact that one of our industrial enterprises - an enter­ prise tha t we as Man itobans own. namely our own Flyer Bus Comp any - is doing well; and I might say one of the reasons certainly being the very hard work that the Mem ber for La Verendrye put into it three or four years ago in setting up the management of that company, which up to then it had a rather dismal record of costing Man itoba taxpayers dollar s.

But now - and I say this genuinely - I kn ow that all Man ito­ bans are pleased with the outlook of the company and certainly part of tha t outlook is their successfully sec­ uring a multi- million dollar contract - I think in the order of $20 million to $25 mill ion - of selling buses to Chi cago, of all places. That's going to keep that firm and those Manit obans working for the next several years and we're happy about that. So, Mr . Speaker, I really don' t think it was appr op­ riate for the Min ister of Labour to join the boycott on another company here, as to where they were buying their buns.

I'd assume that Flyer sold the buses to Chicago because we had a good product and the price was right; and I assume that somebody bought thei r buns somewhere else because the price was right and they had a good product. I'm not making it a big poin t, Mr . Speak er. I'm just suggesting that I appr eciate the problem, or the burden that any NDP Min ister has to have. I kn ow the leash that Dick Ma rtin has around her. but I pl ead with her, just every once in awhile it will enhance her position if she doesn't just go along with every tug that Dick Ma rtin gives to tha t leash.

Every once in awhile dig in all four of your little paws lik e a dog that doesn't really want to go out across to the park on a cold day. Every once in awhile demonstrate your independence from tha t organ iza­ tion. I couldn' t help but suggest. Here we are enjoying, and many hundreds of Man ­ itobans are enjoying, good gainful employment. Why? Because we're making a product and we're selling it to Chicago and yet there's something very wrong when the situation is reversed, when somebody here in Man itoba decides to buy some hamburger buns in the Un ited States. Well, Mr . Speaker, I'll let you worry about that.

Mr. Sp eaker, that of course is part of the problem in this Throne Speech, in this document, that while they speak of recovery, there is noth ing in the Throne Speech that tells you they are moving toward that. Mr .

Speaker, I'm not going to rehash the debates and the arguments that we have put forth from time to time with respect to the efforts made by our Government in bringing about some expansion in creating that kind 221 of industrial base that could provide for some of the many and worthwhile things that this Government wants to do, in fact, that we did and that our citizens requ ire and will continu e to require. But, Mr.

Sp eaker, we recognized in 1977, '78, '79, that to do so would have to require a quantum step forward in the indus­ trial capacity, in the wealth- earning capacity of this province, for those kinds of services to continue to be provided. That is why, Mr. Speaker, that is why we work so diligently and so hard to induce compan ies lik e Alcan. compan ies lik e IMC, and of course the Western Grid to get started here in Manitoba. Mr . Speaker, the Conference Board's last report just simply underl ines that.

Although the report is rela­ tively favourable toward Ma nitoba, based on the agri­ cultural strength of the last year, it leaves no mistake about the importance of our future when it indicates in its concl uding paragraph, "that much depends on the reassessment and the eventual go-ahead for projects lik e the Western Grid, like the Potash Mine. Without them investment growth will be far slower in the years ahead ." Mr. Speaker , we kne w that, and the tragedy is they should have kno wn that and they didn't. In fact, the tragedy is they went deliberately the opposite way. Perhaps, Mr .

Speaker, that's part of the fundamental difference between us in this House. They concen­ trated all their energies in the distribution of the wealth - and that's a big part of the obligation of government; it's a big part of the obligation of society, but they tend to pay so little atte ntion to the produc­ tion of that same wealth. Mr . Sp eaker, I suppose I should not be surprised. When one finds lovely little essays lik e this that recently appeared in the New Democrat, by one of their unsuccessful candidates in the last elect ion, by Ruth Pear, who talks about making a cont ribution.

She goes on to say, "One of the things wrong with our capital ist society is that the idea of each of us making our contribution to society is reduced to earn ing a living." That's a basic point and what a shame. Now the reason I am going to discuss this here has to do with the long-term social goal of reshaping society so that everyone does some unpleasant tasks and some ple asant tasks. Now, how could this possi­ bly be done? We would need an inventory of tasks. ·can you imagine, Mr . Speaker, the bureau of bureau­ crats that it would take to go scurrying around to find out all the jo bs.

What are all the possible jobs that are being done in our society? Then the same writer goes on to say - and it would include so many garbage bags have to be collected, so many strawberries have to be picked - each person would answer a series of ques­ tions about what tasks he or she would be willing to do, for how long, and at what salary. Each person wou Id be expected to do some hours at a task from the list that nobody lik es to do, some study and some creative work as well. Mr . Speaker, the tragedy is that this is written by a candidate in the last election, of two elections.

I hate to say this, I believe she's also a lawyer and I hope she runs again. Now she goes on to say, "But some people would choose a more varied patte rn," and she says, "O ne might choose to do all the tasks in the same factory; one hour sweeping the floor; one hour in the day care centre: two hours on the workers' management com­ mittee; one hour on the assembly line." Well, Mr .

14 December, 1982 Speaker, can you imagine the chaos that this kind of fairyland thinking would create? Mr. Speaker, there have been some ju risdictions that have tried it. Mr. Speaker, I am assured that 1,000 years from now some Chine se farmer is going to break plowshare on that backyard kiln, that little smelting plant that Chair man Mao asked him to do a few decades ago when it was thought that everybody should be producing steel in their backyards.

You get little sections of this when you read in the press, to bring in the harvest in the USSR they empty the facto­ ries, all the office workers and everybody rushes out to help bring in the No wonder half of their equipment is broken, Mr. Speaker, no wonder half of thei r crop is ruined. Do you think for one moment that I would let the Honourable Member for Elmwood anywhere near my feedlot? Or do you think the Mem ber for Mo rris would let him onto a $140,000 combine? I might let the Min ister of Transportation on there, he's been behind a potato scuff er and he kn ows some work. It isn't really funny, Mr.

Speaker, because first of all this is being written by an adult, supposedly a level, well-edu cated person. It rates prominent space in the NOP publ ication calle d the New Democrat. But again, Mr. Speaker, there is, of course, some recognition that certain thi ngs would have to be done. She concludes by saying, "Reform of the Federal In come Tax so that high income people would have fewer ways avoiding tax is necessary." That's a standard line, of course.

"We would also need to make it more difficult for money to be taken out of Canada for the same reason." She went on to say, we would have to emplo y a very substantial internal pol ice force to keep people in the country, to regulate this kind of rule, because, Mr. Speaker, in any given year maybe somebody doesn't want to pick strawberries. It could happen. Just like the odds on a million bet that happened at the track on the Triactor betting, where all of a sudden 59 people had Triactor cards and the payout wasn't what was expected.

It could happen that, in a given year, nobody wants to pick strawberries, or nobody wants to shovel manure at Harry Enns' farm, but that work has to be done. So obviously somebody in this system is going to tell who to do what unpleasant task, and when to do it, obviously, Mr. Speaker. But where the resemblance between this little quaint essay and the Throne Speec h is. a total lack of responsibil ity for how wealth is generated in a society and in a jur isdiction. Great ideas about how we're all supposed to share the work, the unp leasant task with the pleasant task.

Great idea about how we're all sup­ posed to share the rewards and how we're going to redistribute the incomes. But, Mr . Speaker, in this document, who is going to be concerned about seeing that the pie stays? In deed, Mr . Speaker, in the times that we're in tha t pie is diminishing in terms of real worth.

Where in this Throne Speech do we see some indication, some recognition of the fact that the efforts of Government, along with the pri vate sector, have to be at these times particula rly encouraged to produce the expan sion that is necessary, for simply to stand still if you lik e. to provide for the kind of services that Man itobans have become accustomed to and Man itobans deserve. That, Mr . Speaker, is what's 222 missing in this Throne Speech and that is what's miss­ ing in the statements made by this Government in their first year of office. Mr.

Speaker, you can fault us for the plan or the program that we have had, not too many people did; 3 percent decided that our plan was not acceptable to them. But, Mr. Speaker, at least we had a plan, a plan that could have and would have, right now, been operating to some extent. The Western Grid would have been in position and would have been operating. Al can would not have given up their options in Manit ­ oba. They would have done much the same as they did in Quebec - defer construction starts - but they would have had a commitment to Manit oba; they would have been in Manit oba.

The truth of the matter is, and that's the sad part, you didn't want them in Man itoba. Yet, Mr. Speaker, you are going to find out very shortly, in this coming year - and if not this year then next year - how badly those doll ars are going to be required. The biggest single item that the Min ister of Finance pointed out that was causing his shortfall, his big deficit, was the contribution of industry through cor­ poration tax, $81 million - $82 million shortfal l in the tax. All of a sudden corporations become important.

When we speak of the private sector as being the main generator, you give lip service to it but you don' t really !::>elieve it. You will have to experience it, Mr . Speaker. The only unfortunate

part is too many Ma nitobans, some 50,000 right now, are exper iencing it. Mr . Speaker, I'd like to make a commitment to the honourable members opposite, a commitment that I have not had the opportuni ty of caucusing with my caucus, but I know will go along with it. Let's recon­ vene this House on Jan uary 15, let's cancel some winter holidays and let's start working for those 55,000 unemployed Man itobans in this province; let's do that. Mr . Speaker, I'll make a further commitment; we get down to work; we see some progress; we'll start clean­ ing up the decorum in this House. But, Mr .

Speaker, let's have that kin d of a commitment about a will ing­ ness to face the issues; let's have a commitment from these gentlemen opposite that the House will convene on Janu ary 15. I kn ow some of them have made holi­ day plans but they can be canceled just as press con­ ferences can be canceled. Mr. Speaker, there seems to be little inclination on the part of honourable members opposite to do that. We are ready for them; we're prepared to start deal ing into the individual Estimates of the departments to see what can and what needs to be done for the people of Man itoba. Thank you. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Cultur al Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I'm pleased to have the oppor tun ity of participating in the debate on the Speech from the Throne. I would first lik e to congratulate you, Mr. Speaker, for the job that you are doing in atte mpting to maintain order in this House. I'm particula rly pleased to see that your health is back to normal and I would just hope that the events of the last few days won't cause a deterioration in your health. I would also like to congratulate the Deputy Speaker

Tuesday, 14 December, 1982 and the Chair man of the House Comm ittees. I'd also lik e to ackno wledge the speeches in the debate from the Mover and the Seconder of the Sp eech from the Throne. I would also lik e to, I guess for the fir st time, ackno wledge the recent additions to the Cabine t, my colleagues to the right of me, in particular the third woman member of the Cabinet. I think we have the most women representatives that have ever been in the Cabi net in the Province of Man itoba. Mr .

Sp eaker. the Speech from the Throne is an opportunit y for us to look ahead at the pl ans of Government in respect to departments for the ensu­ ing year and also to reflect somewhat on what has transpired in the preceding year since the last Spee ch. Mr . Speaker, this has been my first year in polit ical life in an elected capacity, though I' ve certainly been involved in pol itical life for over a decade in a non­ elected, but still a participating role in the pol itical process, I felt It 's certainly been a year of learn ing for me and a difficult year.

I think it's a difficult year for all of us in Governme nt, whether it's here at the provin­ cial level in the Province of Man itoba and other pro­ vinces, indeed the Federal Goverment, other govern­ ments in the world and certainly other levels of government with in the Province of Man itoba. I' ve cer­ tainly learned a lot in this first year in Government, Mr . Deputy Speaker, and I' ve made some mistakes and I'm sure that honourable members opposite will certainly bring forward any further areas in the true spirit of constructive criticism with respect to the departments that I'm responsible for.

I' ve had the pl easure and the honour of serving my constituents and also with earl ier responsibilities on the front benches of being involved in the reintroduc­ tion of rent control legislation in the Province of Manit oba, the expansion of the Cr itical Home Repair and the In terest Rate Relie f Program for homeowners. I' ve also enjoyed the chal lenges of deal ing with issues as they affect urban affairs, particula rly the City of Winn ipeg, and the cult ural life of the Province of Man itoba. I do find it difficult, Mr .

Deputy Speaker, to partici­ pate in what's been going on in the House for the last while. I have a great deal of respect fort he democratic process that exists in this province and, quite frankl y, I have a great deal of respect for members opposite. Whil e I certainly will differ with them on areas of pol­ icy, of issues, I certainly won't attack the integrity, the personal ity, the backgr ound, the intell igence of the members opposite. I think that we're here to represent the people in the Province of Man itoba to the best of our ability and I don't think that that's served, Mr .

Deputy Speaker, by attack ing individuals with respect to where they may have come from, what they may have been involved in -(I nterjection)- Mr. Speaker, I don't attack anybody about where they come from -(I nterjection)- I'm not initiating anyth ing, I'm responding MP.. DEPUTY SPEAK ER, P. Eyler: Or der please. The Honourable Min ister of Ur ban Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr . Speaker, I'm responding to comments tha t were made to the Speech from the Throne. I'm not initiating any comments and I would rather not dwell on them but -(l nterjection )-d o you want to know exactly where it is? Mr.

Speaker, I made no mention of racial slurs; I made mention of back­ ground and that's recorded in Hansard of Monday, December 6th, Mr . Speaker. I won't comment any further but to suggest that it would be up to the member who made those comments to clarify them as to what he meant by background. One can only go by

definitions that -(l nterjecti on)- well, one could look in the Oxford Dictionary at what's contai ned in the book and this includes economic background and others. The record shows that the Honou rable Leader of the Opp osition also attacked the intell igence of members opposite, and that's members on this side, and that's in the record. But I would hope, Mr. Sp eaker, that we can move forward and move above this kind of attitude, this poisonous attitude that exists in the House, and as I indicated I think we should be dealing with the issues that are of concern to the people of the province.

I'd like to spend some moments, Mr. Deputy Speaker, discussing some of the issues that I have been work­ ing on with respect to Ur ban Affairs. Some of them have been mentioned by members opposite during their submissions and their debate in the Throne Speech. I'd lik e to talk about the province's involvement in the protect ion of the Cit y of Winnip eg water supply, the Shoal Lake issue; to deal with the province's posi­ tion with respect .to Plan Winn ipeg; and discuss the Core Area Ini tiative. Mr .

Speaker, the province has taken a very clear position with respect to the protec­ tion of the Cit y of Winn ipeg water suppl y. This Government has always maintai ned that the devel­ opment that has been proposed for the Shoal Lake area should not proceed without the assurance that the qual ity of the water supply for the City of Winn ipeg will be protected. Mr . Speaker, I was designated by Executive Council to be the lead Mi nister with respect to relating to the City of Winnip eg, the Federal Government, other Pro­ vincial Government departments and the local Band with respect to this issue.

The province had requested a meeting of all the parties who had interest in this issue, and a meeting was held in Winn ipeg on July · 26th with representatives of the Federal Government, the Min ister of In dian Affairs, the local Man itoba Min­ ister, the Min ister responsible for Emplo yment and Immigr ation, the Mayor of the City of Winn ipeg and some councill ors, and representatives of Band No. 40. 223 At that time there was a decision reached by all the parties at that meeting that they would consider the foll owing measures: One would be that the Federal Environment Assessment Review Panel would be asked to adjust its guideli nes to restrict the considera­ tion of the proposed project to its water quali ty and to proceed through a public hearing process as quickl y as possible.

The parties agreed to consider submitting all relevant information to the panel immediately. Also that Canada, Manit oba, Winn ipeg and the Band, con­ tingent on the acceptance of the revised FEARO would designate negotiators to begin immediately to prepare a draft agreement on comp ensation on a cost- sharing basis in order to restrict development. The province has continually been attempting to work towards reaching agreements on those two issues.

Tuesday, 14 December, 1982 There was mention made, Mr . Dep uty Speaker, that the province was meeting without the city - that the city was not being asked to attend the meetings. There have been meetings held with the province, the Fed­ eral Deparment of In dian Affairs, the Federal Depar t­ ment of the Environment, a representative from the Min ister of Empl oyment and Immigration and repre­ sentatives of Band No. 40.

The city was asked to par­ ticipate in those meetings and the city-de signated negotiator, the Ch ief Commissioner, indicated to the parties that he could not participate in those pro­ cesses on the basis of a City Council resolution. The parties met in order to bring about agreement and extract from the Federal Government the revised FEARO process. Even though the City of Winn ipeg was not able to participate directly in those meetings, the province met separately with the City of Winnip eg negotiator and informed him as to the status of the negotiations.

Recently there was a revised FEARO proposal made as a result of those discussions, as a result of the province's lead and that information was shared with the City of Winnip eg and there was written comments on the proposal received from the City of Winnip eg. So it is clear, Mr . Deput y. Speaker, that the pro vince has continually co-op erated with the City of Winn ipeg to ensure that the City of Winn ipeg water supply is protected, in particular, attempting to bring about the process that was agreed to by all of the parties with respect to the revised FEARO and with respect to a negotiating process.

In addition to that process, the First Min ister has met with the Premier of On tario and indicated to him directly the provin ce's concern with respect to the total watershed area surrounding Sh oal Lake which is, as members will appreciate, much larger, much greater than the one subject area being Shoal Lake Band No. 40. There have been subsequent meetings held with the Min ister of the Environment of the Pro­ vince of Manit oba and the Min ister of the Environment for the Province of On tario who are continuing to pursue the province's total concerns on the watershed.

There have been ongoing staff meetin gs dealing with that issue. The province has also been work ing with the Band and the Federal Department of the Environment with respect to the immediate problems on the Band land with respect to their privies and septic fields.

We have been informed that there is concern by the Federal Department of Environment that there is no proper land available on the reserve land for the disposition of garbage and sewage, and we've been working with the Band to identify other available lands that would be close to reserve land, which would be suitable and environmentally safe for such disposal. So, Mr .

Speaker, the record is clear that the pro­ vince has worked to protect the water quali ty of the City of Winn ipeg, has worked with all of the parties to protect the City of Winn ipeg water suppl y, at the same time recognizin g that the Shoal Lake Band No. 40 has legitimate concerns with respect to economic activity in that area.

The Band some years ago lost its com­ mercial fishing rights that they previously enjoyed in the Province of Ontario and have since been looking for alternate sources of economic activity so they can sustain the reserve. 224 The province will continue to work on behalf of the citizens of Winn ipeg to protect the water supply. There were some comments made with respect to the recent leafleting of the residents of the City of Win­ nipeg with respect to this issue and I would direct members opposite, if they have questions as to why that happ ened, they should direct them to the approp­ riate authorities.

I can't comment on whatever reasons were behind that, but they may want to question the Mayor directly as to how he perceives the province's involvement and the province's position with respect to Shoal Lake. The second area there's been much comment on as of late, and in particular by the Hono urable Mem ber for St. Norbert and others, is on the provin ce's posi­ tion with respect to Plan Winnip eg. I'm sure the Member for St.

Norbert understands the legis lative requirement with respect to Plan Winn ipeg and the role in what's contemp lated under the legislation with respect to the joint agreement and appr oval of Plan Winn ipeg in by-law form by Third Reading by the City of Winn ipeg and final acceptance by the province. A lot of the debate, especially that which took pl ace earlier in the reply to the Speech from the Throne, centred around the process that is being perceived with respect to the City of Winnip eg and the province regarding Plan Winn ipeg.

I think it would be appr op­ riate just to re-inform members opposite as to tha t process. The City of Winn ipeg has been discussing Plan Winnip eg for many years now. The new Govern­ ment, shortly after taking office, received a presenta­ tion from the City of Winn ipeg with respect to Plan Winn ipeg. That was at a meetin g held on Ma rch 22nd.

One month later, on April 20, the official delegation and the Ur ban Affairs Commit tee of Cabine t met to further discuss Plan Winn ipeg, and at that time the province outli ned its concerns with respect to Plan Winnip eg and that, I would just repeat, was on April 20 of this year, Mr. Deputy Speaker. At that time, the province outli ned the areas that we had concern about and further suggestion for change on the methodology of Plan Winn ipeg.

It was at the request of the City of Winn ipeg that the province's position not be made public , that the City wanted to deal with it internally and without any public annou ncement as to the province's position. The issue again surfaced when the province was finalizing its position on Plan Winn ipeg in the fall of 1982.

At that time. the province further clarified its concerns with respect to the pol icy areas of Plan Win­ nipeg and were planning to relate those concerns to the official delegation of the Cit y of Winnip eg at a meeting that was previously pl anne d for October 29th, which was preceding, as we were informed, preceding an Executive Policy Comm ittee meeting whereby the City was going to decide on the final changes that they were going to make prior to refer­ ring it to City Counci l for Second Read ing. What happened in the interim, Mr .

Deputy Speaker, was that the then Executive Pol icy Committee decided to move the meeting forward prior to a council meet­ ing that did change the makeup of the Executive Pol­ icy Comm ittee and moved it to the day before the meeting that had previously been pl anned to discuss it. So the province, upon learn ing this information, immediately corresponded its position to the City of

Tuesday, 14 December, 1982 Winnip eg the morning of the rearranged meeting of Executive Policy Committee. The province could have sat back. Mr . Deputy Speaker. and waited. as is contemp lated by the legis­ lation. for the adoption at Second Read ing of Plan Winnip eg by the City of Winnip eg. The legislation provides that upon Second Read ing, the by-law is forwarded to the Mi nister of Ur ban Affairs who has a number of choices available to him with respect to Plan Winn ipeg.

One is referral to the Muni cipal Board for further public hearings and. of course. the referral back to Cit y Council for third and final approv al. with or without any suggested changes. Rather than wait­ ing until the last minute. Mr .

Deput y Speaker. in order to outline the province's position. the province acted in a more responsible fashion by outlin ing its con­ cerns to the City of Winn ipeg very early in the process. not waiting till the last minute. as early as was possible it was outli ned to the City of Winn ipeg in meetings in April of this year. at which time the Cit y requested that information not be made public and was subsequently reaffirmed prior to the adoption at Second Re ading.

It 's interesting that the discussion here has centred on the process and not on the issues that the province has raised with respect to Plan Winn ipeg. I think it would be worthwhile just to spend a few moments discussing those major issues. The province had indi­ cated tha t it was in favour of the major policy objec­ tives of Plan Winn ipeg, which was the revital ization of older neighbourhoods in the City of Winnip eg and a transit orientation to the transportation needs of the City of Winn ipeg for the next few decades.

Where the province has concerns with respect to Plan Winnip eg is in the methodol ogy that is behind those major and laudable policy objectives. One is in the area of the urban limit line; the second major one was regarding CPR relocation; and the third major area was with respect to community plans and action area plans.

The position that the province suggested to the City that it review with respect to the urban limit line. which was incorporated into Plan Winn ipeg in order to somewhat limit urban sprawl and assist in the major pol icy objective of Plan Winn ipeg - that being the revital ization of older neighbourhoods - was that the urban limit line proposed provided for development that would far exceed the projected requirements for developme nt for the City of Winn ipeg.

Plan Winnip eg projects a population in the City of Winn ipeg of some 658,000 people by 1999 and it's ex pected that in order to house the additional 97,0 00 people who will be living in Winnip eg by 1999, you would need 6,900 further acres of developed land. Plan Winn ipeg designates far in excess of that fig­ ure. in fact, designates some 12,300 acres for residen­ tial development. which is almost twice the demand.

So here we have on one hand Plan Winn ipeg sug­ gesting a focus on the revital ization of the older neighbourhoods. but on the other hand suggesting that there be a far greater development in the peri­ pheral and the suburban area of the City of Winnip eg than is needed. In fact, out of the projected 6,900 acres. close to one-half of tha t demand to meet the needs of the city for the next decade are already avail­ able in land s that have already been appr oved for development in the Cit y of Winn ipeg.

What the pro- 225 vince has suggested is that there be a second urban limit line so that we can stage the development as the popula tion needs and as the demand for additional housing in the peripheral or the suburban area of the Cit y of Winn ipeg becomes needed. We suggest that it is more in keeping with the major pol icy objectives of Plan Winn ipeg and certainly one that has been raised many times in the public hearing process from many organizations. including the social plan ning council.

The second area is with respect to the legislative provision for community plans and action area plans in the Cit y of Winn ipeg. We have suggested that Plan Winn ipeg include a strategy for the impleme ntat ion of community plans in each of the six community com­ mittee areas in the City of Winnip eg and a provision for action area plans of designated areas of the Cit y of Winnip eg.

I thin k it's important that we have in pl ace a mechanism that will allo w the discussion, the invol­ vement of citizens in the plans for land use in their areas, not only at the level that's contemp lated in Plan Winnip eg, which is an overall approach to the City of Winn ipeg, but also in specific areas of the city. The city has had a great deal of success in the area of action area plans, where they have been developed, and the city is certainl y aware of the benefit of that kind of process.

Un fortuna tely, there has never been use made of the community plans that have been all owed for and contemp lated in The Cit y of Winnip eg Act The third major area that we suggested, change in Plan Winn ipeg, was with respect to the issue of CPR rail relocation. Mr .

Speaker, we are all concerned and feel somewhat relieved that the situation that arose last night was not as serious as it might have been - and this is not the first such situation that has occurred in the CPR marshalling yards - but I think it does highlight again for us the concern with respect to the health and safety of a great many of the residents of the City of Winnip eg. Mr .

Deputy Speaker, my constituenc y comes within just over a mile of the CPR marshalling yards and there is a great deal of concern even at that part of the north end of Winn ipeg with respect to the ongoing presence of the CPR marshalling yards. There has been many people who have expr essed the concern, not only over this particular unfortunate situation last night, but on an ongoing basis with respect to the CPR marshalling yards.

The province has indicated it is of the opinion that the issue ought to be addressed in the context of Plan Winn ipeg, and Plan Winnip eg at the present time, the way it is designed, is tak ing the opposit e position; that the CPR marshal ling yards will remain in the core area of the City of Winnip eg. We are prepared to work with the City of Winn ipeg, the Fed­ eral Government and of course the CPR to ensure that we can finally address the issue of rail relocation.

I noted the comments of the Mem ber for Tuxedo. it is unfortunate he isn't here, that he made in response to the statement by the Mini ster of Northern Affairs today. suggesting that the province is somewhat con­ trad ictory in its position with respect to the concern of the residents of the area surrounding the CPR mar­ shalling yards - and that is with respect to our position on the revised Logan Avenue In dustrial Park - he said the province is attempting to have residents live in close prox imity to the marshalling yards.

14 December, 19 82 The facts of the matter are, Mr. Speaker, that people do live right around the CPR marshalling yards at the present time. The area that is under discussion, by the city, the pro vince and the Federal Government in the Logan area does presently have people living in it. If he is suggesting that the answers to the problems of the concerns about the health and safety is to move people out, we're going to move out half the popula ­ tion of the City of Winn ipeg. We can't only move them away from the Logan area, Mr .

Deputy Speaker, we're going to have to move the whole Midland area, the whole Weston area, part of the Brook lands area, the north-end area. Where are we going to move all these people and at what cost? The situation that arose last night, there was a pro­ jectile tha t was sent out as a result of that explosion that went a half mile from the scene of the accident into the north-end of Winnip eg. How far do we have to move people out in order to ensure health and safety?

So the province's position is not contradictory, we feel there is a concern for health and safety of the people in the City of Winn ipeg and that is best resolved by addressing the issue in a serious way by removal of the CPR marshallin g yards and/or the main line and that has happened in other cit ies across Canada, Mr . Speaker. It has happ ened when there has been a determination by the province, the local municipal ity and the Federal Government to do it, and of course the railway. It happene d in the City of Regina.

It has hap­ pened with respect to the CNR and they are now presently work ing on a plan with respect to the CPR. We are prepared to work with the other levels of government in order to see this happen. I'm especially pleased and I can only think that as a result of the position the province has adopted with respect to rail relocation, a position that was never - contrary to the comments by the Member forT uxedo ­ never stated by members opposite either now or while they were in government.

I'm pleased that as a result of the position that this Government has taken in respect to rail relocation, that the city has indicated that it is in favour. I was informed just moments ago that the Mayor has issued a statement today also cal­ ling for rail relocation, indicating that the city is pre­ pared to commit funds to pursue that issue. We're certainly looking forward to discussions with the Mayor on this issue and I'll be discussing it with my colle agues in the next few days in order that we can seriously, finally, get down to deal ing with this issue.

I also received a communication earlier this morn­ ing from the Federal Min ister of Emplo yment and Immi gration indicating his support for deal ing with this issue. I'm pleased that, as a result of the position of the province which was adopted last April, the other levels of government are finally prepared to address this issue. Mr . Sp eaker. I think it would be important for us to rem em berth at the province does have a role to play in the adoption of Plan Winn ipeg.

The province has indi­ cated its concerns, not in a dictato rial fashion as been suggested by some members opposite, but in an effort to continue dialogue with the City of Winn ipeg and not in an arbitrary fashion. We've indicated our con­ cerns. concerns which were raised by many in the pu blic hearing process that went on with respect to Plan Winn ipeg. We indicated those concerns prior to 226 the adoption of Second Read ing, so that the city would have the opportunity to discuss those and con­ tinue discussions with the province on them.

I'm pleased to note that we have had continual discus­ sions with the City of Winn ipeg, with the official dele­ gation on Plan Winnip eg. I'd hope that Plan Winn ipeg would be that much stronger for the discussion and the concerns that have been raised by the province and tha t we can adopt a plan that is going to ensure that we are going to have the kin d of revital ization of the Cit y of Winnip eg that is contemp lated by the gen­ eral policy statements of Plan Winn ipeg, so that we will have a city that will not conti nue to decay from the inside, but would rather grow and flourish throughout. Mr .

Speaker, I would lik e to spend a few moments ta lking about the Core Area In itiative. The province inherited an agreement that was negotiated oy the previous government prior to the election. Whil e our party was in Op position we outl ined a number of con­ cerns with respect to the direction that the Core Area In itiative was taking.

We did, however, take a very positive position on coming into Government to do all that was possible to cont inue the developme nt of the Core Area In itiative, recognizing that it was a tripartite agreement, that any changes would have to be nego­ tiated with the other two partners, but also indicating that we had some concerns with respect to the In itiative. Those concerns came under three general areas, Mr . Speaker. One was what was recognized as a lack of involvement, a lack of process for the involvement of the citizens who were being affected by the Core Area In itiative.

There were comments made by the Member for Rupert sland with respect to the problems of Native Indi ans in the Core Area In itiative and some members opposite have said if the Mi nister of Ur ban Affairs would not have suggested changes to the Logan Avenue In dustrial Park that would have resolved the problems of the Native people. Those kin ds of comments show, Mr. Speaker, a lack of understand­ ing, a lack of kno wledge of the problems of the Native people in the core area.

I have spent many hours meeting with representatives of the Native people in the core area who are concerned that the Core Area Ini tiative was developed and started without any meaningful involvement of the Native people, the Met is and the status off-reserve Native residents of the core area and it's been developed and started with no involvement from them as to meeting the concerns and needs of Winnip eg's growing Native popula tion. I'm pleased to report that the Core Area In itiative Office has started now to develop programs that will assist and will involve Native people.

That general position of the lack of citizens' involvement was obvious in the Logan Avenue In dustrial Park. There was no involvement of the people living in the area. the business people carrying on businesses in that area: there was no involvement whatsoever in the develop­ ment of that plan. We had to institute an enq uiry under The Evidenc e Act to put back into pl ace what should have been done under The Expropria tion Act and we've been attempting to ensure that the needs of the residents and businesses in that area are met in the redevelopment pla ns.

I'm pleased with the comprom­ ise that has been worked out in cooperation with the city and the Federal Government and the residents

14 December, 1982 and businesses in that area. Mr. Sp eaker, I note that my time is slowly coming to an end. I would have liked to tal k about the kinds of things that are happe ning and will be happen ing in the next year in the Department of Cult ural Affairs and Historic Resou rces and I would wait for the appr op­ riate time in the Estimate process to talk about some of the developments there. In conclusion, Mr .

Speaker, the position of the pro­ vince, the position of our Government with respect to the City of Winn ipeg has been to deal with the issues that affect the Cit y of Winn ipeg and not deal with them in a mann er that's being suggested by the members oppos ite. We are not dictati ng to the City of Winnip eg; we are atte mpting to deal with those issues in a con­ sultative and cooperative fashion. We have not dic­ tated to the Cit y of Winn ipeg what their position is, rather we have raised those issues with the City of Winn ipeg in order that we can discuss them and hope­ fully bring them to a conclusion.

You know, Mr. Speaker, the last four years of the previous government, showed no initiative with respect to urban issues. There were no urban pol icy state­ ments made by the previous government. They chose to ignore the concerns of the City of Winn ipeg rather than to deal with them. It may be difficult deal ing with some of these issues, but it would be irresponsible of me as an elected official, as an elected MLA and as a member of Executive Council to ignore those issues.

It 's my responsi bility as Min ister of Ur ban Affairs to relate those issues to the City of Win nipeg and also to relate the concerns of the City of Winnip eg to my colleagues in the Provincial Government. I will con­ tinue to do that; I don't apolog ize for that. Mr . Speaker. I would hope that we are able to move onto a more positive plane and start dealing with the issues in this House rather than the kind of state that this House has been in for the last few days, because I don't think we're serving the interests of the people of the province in this kin d of display.

I know the people of my constituency would hope that this would change and start deal ing with the many issues. I would hope the Opposition would criticize in an objective fashion and not attack personali ties but deal with the issues and bring forth suggestions as to the kind of changes they would lik e to see and that would reflect the needs and interests of people of their constituencies. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To commence my remarks on the Throne Speech, I would like to first congratulate the Deputy Speaker and also to congratulate the new appoi ntments to stand ing committees, and I wish them well in their endeavours in this House. I'd also lik e to mention my constituenc y briefly and to thank the people of the constituenc y of Gladstone for the supp ort they have given me and their encour­ agement to me during this fir st year as their MLA. Several of the communities of Gladstone, Mr . Speaker, celebrated their centennials this year, their 100th birthdays, and I also wish to congratulate them once again.

I did have the opp ortun ity to congratulate them this summer on their excellen t programs that they put 227 on, but I'd also lik e to congratulate them again and to thank them for the hospital ity shown to me during those events. These communities demonstrated, Mr. Speaker, the ingenuity and the resourcefulness of which rur al communities are capable, the spirit of togetherness and the willingn ess to co-operate, which have dem­ onstrated over the years time and time again the very reason why these communities exist and thrive today. A few weeks ago, Mr.

Sp eaker, the present Govern­ ment gathered a few people together in a fine hotel in the constituenc y of Portage la Prairie and came, after days of discussion, to an interesting conclusion, an amazing conclusion - to them, amazing. What did they concl ude? I'll quote from the News Service bulletin on the subject: "Strategy for growth needed, says Summit"; that's the publication; I'm quoting from it, and I quote: "What has emerged from these hours of meetings is a shared belief that Manit oba's economic performance can be improved.

We can take positive action to overcome current problems and seize opportunitie s for eco­ nomic growth." That's hardly a revelation, and I go on to quote again: "Among the strengths are the economic advan­ tages of Man itoba as a business location, the skil led workforce, natural resource endowment, tou rist po­ tential and the diversified industrial base. The qual ity of life in the province is a further strength.

A few of the specific opp ortun ities may be found in diversification of our agricultu ral base, improved labour manage­ ment relations, further development of our hydro­ electric potenti al - I'll repeat - "further development of our hydro-electric potential and expansion of Mani­ toba's role as a manufacturing centre." Well, Mr . Speaker, we on this side of the House have always known that the people of Ma nitoba are a great resource, a valuable resource; the people from all parts of Man itoba are a valuable resource.

Ob viously, the people who have recently come to this country came here because they saw in us something that they wanted to be part of, and that is why they're here, and they have added and contributed to this great resource of our province. Now, meeting and talking about problems is a great idea but also we need to have act ion. Man itobans are now realizing that this Government is meeting, they're visiting, ta lking, they're repriorizing, they're dialogu­ ing, they're chatting, sympath izing, they're iisten ing, listen ing, listening and they're ta lking and ta lking and tal kin g, but they're doing noth ing.

They, who pro­ mised immediate action, remember? Imme diate help, immediate action. In fact, they guaranteed it, they promised it to the people of Manitoba, but we don' t see the action yet. Now for a few moments I'd like to talk about Main Street Man itoba. In October, I attended a pla nnin g district seminar in Brandon. Present were representa­ tives of most of all the planning districts of the pro­ vince and some representatives of municip alities who were considering joining into planning districts and they wanted to come and see what went on and see if they could learn something about planning districts.

Now, the main morning session was taken up with a discussion on Main Street Man itoba. There were dis­ cussion groups; they were divided into groups and

14 December, 1982 everyone chatted about Main Street Man itoba and reports were given later on what the groups thought of this project. What did people have to say about Main Street Man itoba? I'll give you just a few exam ples of what some of these report groups came up with. One thin g that happened as each discussion group report ed, one of their main remarks was: "What is the subject of Main Street Manit oba doing at a planning seminar? We came to discuss pla nnin g matters. We didn't want to hear about Main Street Man itoba.

We wanted to hear about the basic fundamentals of plan­ ning districts and how they could better operate within the Province of Man itoba." Another point raised was that in tough economic times should we really be asking municipal govern­ ments and councils to spend more money in order to get more provincial money? They really didn't think it was a high priority. The Member for Swan River also mentioned this yesterday in his remarks that it wasn't a high priority in these economic times.

Another point raised was that there were no monies available in the program for consulting fees. for expertise in architec­ tural planning, so that these programs could be care­ fully planned. The program, they found, was very difficult to sell to the members of their towns and villa ges if there wasn't something you could lay before them and say, look, this is what we're pla nning to do; this is how we're going to map it out and would you like to be part of it?

Some people also suggested that the program should be phased over several years if we were going to do this, so that you could put before the people a pl an of orderly development and encourage the slow orderly development of the main streets of Man itoba. Many people expr essed problems in dovetailing the program with other departments of Government; for instance, the Highways Department.

Some of them were having problems with their streets with the Highways Department and other departments in get­ ting everyt hing together so that they could get a prop­ osal to the Min ister in time to be useful to him, and many felt that the program would only stave off prob­ lems but would not address the problems. The Min ister of Municipal Affa irs addressed the meeting briefly in the afternoon. What did he talk about? Not plan ning boards; no, he talked about Main Street Man itoba.

I came away from the meeting with a distinct feeling tha t Main Street Man itoba was not uppermost in the minds of reeves and council lors who atte nded that meeting. I got the feeling that they would have been much happier discussing some other topic. I also recall that in the House the other day the Min ister of Mun icipal Affairs was ta lking about the Main Street Program and he said that this was a wonderful show of how businesses and municipal people could get together. this was the first time they got together. Well.

I don' t kn ow where the Minister of Municip al Affairs has been visiting or living lately, but some of the very people that are involved in municipal government in these small towns and villa ges are also in business in them. so they've been getting together for years. There's noth ing surprising about people getting together. It seems to be a phenomenon which this Government is just realizing. Ob viously from what they're talking about it, they find it surprising. At least 228 in my part of the province. we know about co­ operation between businesses and municipal govern­ ment. We've known about it for years.

Now, the Min ister of Cultur al Affairs was just up speaking and he mentioned something that I would like to dwell on briefly for a moment to do with pl an­ ning. He mentioned the acreage of land that would be needed within the near future for the City of Winn ipeg. You kn ow, it's a sad fact; of course, it's a fact of life, but most of the cities and towns of this province were established on areas of excellent farmland, excellent agricultur al land, and more and more of it is being lost to these towns and vil lages, of course, as they pro­ gress.

Now, I don't know, the Min ister mentioned about 6,000 or nearly 7,000 acres. I hope that he is ta lking with the planning boards that surround the Cit y of Winn ipeg and discussing how they can accompl ish the building they need without tak ing any more agricultural land than they possibly can. This is a matter which is very crucial. We're losing agricult u­ ral land at a great rate in this province; I think it is a very important matter that the Minister should look at.

Also, when he mentions the railway yards, I have a feeling that if we move the railway yards that they will also go onto prime agricultural land which surrounds the city. So, I think perhaps there should be a great deal of thought go into the planning of this move to see that it doesn't take up agricultural land. Now we all know that when something like that moves, the busi­ nesses and communities spring up around it; so there­ fore, we'll lose more agricultural land. This, to me, is something that we should have a very close look at.

Now, I come to a subject which the reeves and councill ors of rural Manit oba really do want to talk about. They want action. They want the topic of assessment brought forward immediately and dealt with. When is the Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs going to annou nce a pol icy concerning the Assessment Review and, more importantly, when is he going to do something about it?

I was encouraged that he was reading the report in the House this afternoon - the length y copy too -s o maybe I could go out and tell my constituents there's hope; the Min ister is at least read­ ing the document. -(I nterject ion)- Wel l, he had the book with him, that's all I'm going by. I think he was pro baby at Page 3 or 4. Now the Min ister keeps saying that he's consulting, Mr . Speaker. Now, consultation has its place; we all kn ow that, but what we really need now is action.

I get man y phone calls from constituents, as I'm sure you all do, but one of the subjects that comes up qu ite often is this perple xing business of assessment. Several people have phoned me to complain that now they have to pay taxes on their farm homes. And why, Mr. Speaker? Because they are in such difficulty financially on their farm that they've had to find work off the farm. This leads to the fact that, of course, obviously they make more money off the farm, so they have to pay taxes on their house. It 's rather hard for them to understand this, Mr.

Speaker, when they live in the same neighbourhood with people who are not having difficulty with their farming operation but who are paying no tax on their farmhouse. Now I'm not going to say that the Min ister caused this problem. It 's a problem of longstanding, but the Minister has created an expectation that something

Tuesday, 14 December, 1982 will be done about it. This, Mr . Speaker, is interest ing, because he is still consulting. He plans to go out and ask the municip al ities for their views; they have already given their views. A report has been tabled. It's highly unl ikely the opin ions of the municipal officials will have changed a great deal. If he were to announce a policy, then there would be something to discuss. So we're look ing forward to hearing, in early Janu ary, what the Min ister is going to talk about when he goes forth to his meetings in rural Man itoba.

We would also like to know how many meetings he's going to have and where they are going to be; that would also be interesting. I would suggest he state his policy and get on with it. Whil e I' m on that subject of getting on with it, I think perhaps I will echo the words of the Mem ber for Lake­ side, who suggested that we get back in this House as early as possible in Januar y and get back to work. The people in Man itoba are waiting for answers; they're waiting for these unfulfi lled promises. Their hopes were buoyed by last year's election and they're eager to have something done about it.

Now, before I leave the subject of taxes, I would also lik e to read from an ar ticle which was quoted by the Mem ber for Swan River the last day when we met, an

article from the Winnip eg Sun from Friday, December 10, 1982. "Muni cipal taxpayer s may have to bail out rural hospitals that are being swamped with red ink because of the province's payroll tax. "Several hospital ad ministrators said yesterday that the payroll tax is swelling their deficits and they don't know where they are going to get the money." Further along in the article, it says, "'The 1.5 percent payroll tax is killing us,' said one administrator who did not want to be identified.

Taxp ayers aren't going to be happy about seeing a hospital tax." Now, when it was introduced to us, it was not called a tax on the hospitals that are operating in this pro­ vince. Again, I quote, "What is frightening is that hos­ pitals can't live within the Govern ment guideli nes and people could eventuall y find that a large portion of their taxes are going to the local hospital." So there we have another problem with the taxes of this province, compounded by the payroll tax. Si nce my constituency's ec onomic base is mainly agricultur e, I would like to talk about that subject for a moment.

Many farmers in the Gladstone constituency, as in other areas, were hard hit by weather conditions this summer in this past growing season. There were severe hailstorms in parts of the constituency; there was very early frost. All this played havoc with the qu al ity and the quant ity of the grain which was harv­ ested and, therefore, the grades were down, prices were down, but production costs continue d to go up. I have a young farmer in my constituenc y who told me that, if he had stayed in bed for the last three years, he'd be further ahead with his farm operation.

He was going behind simply because he was putting in a crop, trying to grow a crop every year. He's getting further and fur ther behind every year, which brings me to remark in some areas of -(Int erjection)- Would he ever. Several farmers in my constituency, in great numbers actually, have decided this year it would be too expensiv e. They could not face putting in a crop, so they rented out their land.

Now they're faced with the fact that the people who rented the land from them can't afford to pay the rent. -(Inter ject ion)- So it is, indeed, the Member for Lakeside, a vicious circle. -(I nterjection)- Well, let's not get into that. Now, the farmers read the papers, and they learned that the workers are asking for higher wages; some are threat ening to strike for even higher wages. The Federal Government of Canada suggests a 6 and 5 restraint. The Premier of Man itoba suggests 9 per­ cent, but after hearing question period today, I am a little hazy on what he is suggesting.

Now the farmer shakes his head, 6 and 5 sounds lik e heaven to him. Any increase would be welcome. We also, as dis­ cussed in question period today, find that Mc Kenzie Seeds' company workers are getting a first-year increase of 13; it says around or about 13 percent. Who kn ows what it is when we hear the exact figure? They've ratified the deal which cal ls for a second-year increase between 10 and 12 percent. Well, there are a lot farmers that will be interested in that one - very interested. When the farmers suffer, so do the busi­ nesses which service the agricultural community.

The machinery dealers, the fuel dealers, fertil izer dealers, entire communities that surround agriculture suffer. I talked to a fuel dealer in my constituency. She told me that she wasn't really a great worrier; she let her husband do the worrying about the business. She looks after the books and so forth, but she's really worried now. She's very concerned because their accounts receivable have reached the same amount as their net worth. She figures that is the time she really needs to start worrying.

I hope since I talked to her that perhaps their har vest has come in not too badly and maybe some of her bills have been paid, but this is a problem throughout the agricultur al area of Man itoba. Business is suffering because farmers are suffering and now we add the payroll tax. We can't seem to mention any of this without get ting into the pay roll tax; it enters every phase of our life. As the Member for Lake side was heard to say from this House, they're even tax ing prayer. So, agricultur e is in trouble in Man itoba.

The beef producers who hoped for help from a stabilization pl an are now finding that the plan is not going to be the boon that it was promised to be. Those farmers ·who've signed up in desperation - in desperation, Mr . 229 Sp eaker - that they could save some vestige of their beef operation. I hope that they read the regulations before they signed. I am afraid maybe some of them didn't, or didn't have the opportun ity to. The regula­ tions that go along with that Beef St abil ization Plan, Mr . Sp eaker, are not favoured by this side of the House.

We do not believe they should have the powers that vest in the Stabil ization Board. Al so, the farming community would do well to pay att ention to what's happening to their cousins in the city. The Min ister in charge of Ur ban Affairs is rapidly becoming more and more involved in the City of Win­ nipeg's affairs. This Government feels that it should be in charge of everything - absolutely everything. The rural areas, the farmers, the towns, the villa ges, should watch this Government closely. Before they know what is happen ing, the Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs